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  39 2011-11-02 00:38:26 <sipa> it's becoming a lot more silent in here lately
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  48 2011-11-02 00:50:43 <nanotube> sipa: means people are working, maybe :)
  49 2011-11-02 00:50:55 <sipa> hopefully :D
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  66 2011-11-02 01:20:09 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rb25e8c3 / (lib/scriptinterpreter.js test/script.js): Switched to asynchronous signature verification. Fixes #29. - http://git.io/EZq1lQ
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  71 2011-11-02 01:24:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: means gavin isnt on and people are busy with life...
  72 2011-11-02 01:25:06 <BlueMatt> also, nice to see you here...been a while
  73 2011-11-02 01:25:10 <sipa> yeah
  74 2011-11-02 01:25:19 <sipa> been busy as well :)
  75 2011-11-02 01:25:33 <BlueMatt> I would say we all have
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  77 2011-11-02 01:27:47 <sipa> time to try a gitian build :)
  78 2011-11-02 01:29:00 <batouzo> sipa: what are you bussy with
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 117 2011-11-02 02:09:15 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r6ede50ea1298 / (5 files in 4 dirs): Subscriber/relay loop should be immediate.
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 147 2011-11-02 02:47:58 <Diablo-D3> man
 148 2011-11-02 02:47:59 <Diablo-D3> I forget
 149 2011-11-02 02:48:18 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: did you have something on gribble to list block numbers for the chains?
 150 2011-11-02 02:49:20 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * re7f6d7621c0e / (8 files in 4 dirs): Tightened the storage requirements in order to have a stronger API: block processing no longer lazily evaluated. must try to execute fully on calling.
 151 2011-11-02 02:51:37 <Diablo-D3> ;;ticker
 152 2011-11-02 02:51:38 <gribble> Best bid: 3.21072, Best ask: 3.21752, Bid-ask spread: 0.0068, Last trade: 3.21742, 24 hour volume: 36498, 24 hour low: 3.07001, 24 hour high: 3.33
 153 2011-11-02 02:52:12 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc (1.52+.67) * 3.21
 154 2011-11-02 02:52:12 <gribble> Google's calculator didn't come up with anything.
 155 2011-11-02 02:52:21 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc ((1.52+.67) * 3.21)
 156 2011-11-02 02:52:22 <gribble> Google's calculator didn't come up with anything.
 157 2011-11-02 02:52:27 <Diablo-D3> you know what, fuck you
 158 2011-11-02 02:52:41 <Diablo-D3> 7.0299
 159 2011-11-02 02:52:43 <Diablo-D3> /exec -o perl -le "print ((1.52+.67) * 3.21)"
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 283 2011-11-02 05:36:38 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r24d8fa4 / (3 files in 2 dirs): Removed database access from Transaction.verify(). - http://git.io/2OoGqw
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 285 2011-11-02 05:36:38 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r664105a / lib/util.js : Error should be output using logger, not console.log. - http://git.io/K0wbQw
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 454 2011-11-02 09:22:45 <nanotube> ;;later tell diablo-d3 well there's the block count for the bitcoin chain... bc,blocks
 455 2011-11-02 09:22:45 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 610 2011-11-02 12:03:58 <UukGoblin> ;;help bc,stats
 611 2011-11-02 12:03:59 <gribble> (bc,stats <an alias, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo Current Blocks: [bc,blocks] | Current Difficulty: [bc,diff] | Next Difficulty At Block: [bc,nexttarget] | Next Difficulty In: [math calc [bc,nexttarget] - [bc,blocks]] blocks | Next Difficulty In About: [bc,timetonext] | Next Difficulty Estimate: [bc,estimate] | Estimated Percent Change: [math calc 100*([bc,estimate]/[bc,diff] - (1 more message)
 612 2011-11-02 12:04:19 <UukGoblin> ;;help bc,estimate
 613 2011-11-02 12:04:19 <gribble> (bc,estimate <an alias, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "web fetch http://blockexplorer.com/q/estimate".
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 621 2011-11-02 12:15:54 <erus`> GTA5 trailer in 4 hours :D
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 671 2011-11-02 13:14:47 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I love it when I get notices about IRCing as root
 672 2011-11-02 13:14:59 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|points at SuprTiggr 
 673 2011-11-02 13:15:24 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|That script better not have tried to kick me. If it did I'm angry
 674 2011-11-02 13:15:42 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|once got kicked from a channel with a similar message about IRCing as root
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 757 2011-11-02 15:05:20 <phungus> heh, who irc's as root?
 758 2011-11-02 15:05:26 <phungus> besides MrTiggr?
 759 2011-11-02 15:05:28 <phungus> :-)
 760 2011-11-02 15:06:01 <phungus> Windows users used to IRC as administrator
 761 2011-11-02 15:06:09 <phungus> for the most part, before the UAC stuff
 762 2011-11-02 15:06:57 <lianj> maybe trolls ones too
 763 2011-11-02 15:07:03 clr_ has joined
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 765 2011-11-02 15:08:25 <helo> maybe someone who has an "DMZ" vm they irc from?
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 776 2011-11-02 15:16:30 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: ping
 777 2011-11-02 15:16:43 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: pong
 778 2011-11-02 15:16:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: 1. why did you add -Wno-strict-aliasing to bitcoin-qt.pro, but not makefile.unix ?
 779 2011-11-02 15:17:24 <BlueMatt> because it showed up in qt compile, but not in regular...I have no idea why
 780 2011-11-02 15:17:34 <luke-jr> O.o
 781 2011-11-02 15:17:59 <luke-jr> same for BOOST_THREAD_USE_LIB ?
 782 2011-11-02 15:18:21 <BlueMatt> iirc yes, though I dont remember
 783 2011-11-02 15:19:02 <BlueMatt> you can go do a gitian build and see if it shows up...
 784 2011-11-02 15:19:15 Litt has quit (Client Quit)
 785 2011-11-02 15:19:26 <luke-jr> no, gitian requires Ruby
 786 2011-11-02 15:19:38 <BlueMatt> ...and?
 787 2011-11-02 15:19:43 <luke-jr> and I won't touch Ruby
 788 2011-11-02 15:19:48 <BlueMatt> ...
 789 2011-11-02 15:19:54 <luke-jr> anyhow, best to put details like this in the commit msgs ;)
 790 2011-11-02 15:20:06 <kinlo> what's up with all those people swearing not to use a certain technology
 791 2011-11-02 15:20:15 <BlueMatt> kinlo: its mostly just luke...
 792 2011-11-02 15:20:19 copumpkin has joined
 793 2011-11-02 15:20:47 <kinlo> BlueMatt: well, I must admit I have the same reaction to .net but still, that's easier to justify :)
 794 2011-11-02 15:20:57 <BlueMatt> well yea, no one likes .net
 795 2011-11-02 15:21:09 <luke-jr> kinlo: Ruby doesn't provide anything and has a high cost.
 796 2011-11-02 15:21:19 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: so use a vm
 797 2011-11-02 15:21:32 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: a VM has an even higher cost
 798 2011-11-02 15:21:42 <luke-jr> plus, I don't think my current kernel can do a VM inside a VM
 799 2011-11-02 15:21:47 <BlueMatt> oh, I thought you were complaining about installing new crap...
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 801 2011-11-02 15:21:53 <BlueMatt> yea, you need 3.1 iirc
 802 2011-11-02 15:22:00 <BlueMatt> (and odd kvm options)
 803 2011-11-02 15:22:31 <luke-jr> well, 3.1 adds it for AMD
 804 2011-11-02 15:22:35 <luke-jr> not sure on status on Intel
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 809 2011-11-02 15:24:38 <BlueMatt_> well, I dont remember, I thought I saw a mention of intel as well, but maybe that tech isnt even an option on intel...
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 814 2011-11-02 15:29:19 <CIA-34> bitcoin: cjdelisle 0.4.x * r38a976d5bbfb bitcoind-stable/src/makefile.unix: Added a workaround for an Ubuntu bug which causes -fstack-protector-all to be disregarded.
 815 2011-11-02 15:29:21 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Matt Corallo 0.4.x * red176ba584ed bitcoind-stable/src/headers.h: Only define __STDC_LIMIT_MACROS if not already defined.
 816 2011-11-02 15:29:22 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Matt Corallo 0.4.x * ref4280e08b21 bitcoind-stable/src/ (keystore.h wallet.cpp): Add returns to avoid annoying compile-time warnings.
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 859 2011-11-02 16:02:36 <devrandom> BlueMatt: linux kernel 3.1 supports multi-level vms?
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 863 2011-11-02 16:06:22 <BlueMatt> devrandom: yes
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 865 2011-11-02 16:08:31 <BlueMatt> devrandom: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commitdiff;h=823e396558e509b7c3225cd76806f3d6643ff5f8
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 867 2011-11-02 16:10:55 <ThomasV> which part of the code does the verification of transactions?
 868 2011-11-02 16:11:46 zapnap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 869 2011-11-02 16:11:52 <BlueMatt> devrandom: also http://www.usenix.org/events/osdi10/tech/full_papers/Ben-Yehuda.pdf
 870 2011-11-02 16:12:17 <graingert> I'm a bit nervous about the fact that bitcoin seems centralized on github
 871 2011-11-02 16:12:28 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: actually it looks like it only works for intel, not amd
 872 2011-11-02 16:12:39 <BlueMatt> graingert: its not
 873 2011-11-02 16:12:46 <BlueMatt> if github tries to change something everyone will see
 874 2011-11-02 16:12:53 <graingert> well it's on everyone else's git
 875 2011-11-02 16:13:00 <BlueMatt> exactly
 876 2011-11-02 16:14:27 <graingert> thinking about an attack
 877 2011-11-02 16:15:23 <graingert> in which you pull from the main repo and you get different code
 878 2011-11-02 16:15:47 <graingert> I guess you'd see the commit
 879 2011-11-02 16:16:06 <graingert> there would probably have to be an exploit in git for anything to happen
 880 2011-11-02 16:17:43 <luke-jr> git uses SHA-1 which IIRC is broken
 881 2011-11-02 16:17:52 <luke-jr> github is still a problem though ☺
 882 2011-11-02 16:18:10 <graingert> International Integrated Reporting Committee, IIRC
 883 2011-11-02 16:18:14 <BlueMatt> since when is sha1 broken?
 884 2011-11-02 16:18:27 <BlueMatt> its weakened, but not actually realistically broken iirc
 885 2011-11-02 16:18:35 <graingert> it's broken
 886 2011-11-02 16:18:40 <graingert> but not compromised
 887 2011-11-02 16:18:49 <luke-jr> "weakened" is broken
 888 2011-11-02 16:18:52 <graingert> broken == weakened
 889 2011-11-02 16:19:03 <BlueMatt> still not "realistically broken"
 890 2011-11-02 16:19:29 <graingert> OMG
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 892 2011-11-02 16:19:41 <graingert> broken != compromised
 893 2011-11-02 16:19:55 <graingert> broken == "realistically broken"
 894 2011-11-02 16:20:11 <BlueMatt> whatever, we all know what is being discussed the terminology is whatever  you want
 895 2011-11-02 16:20:45 <graingert> "It pretty much puts a bullet into SHA-1 as a hash function for digital signatures"
 896 2011-11-02 16:20:54 <graingert> it depends where the bullet was places
 897 2011-11-02 16:20:57 <graingert> placed*
 898 2011-11-02 16:21:05 <graingert> was it in the arm or the head
 899 2011-11-02 16:21:12 <BlueMatt> it means dont depend on it long-term, but for now breaking it is infeasible
 900 2011-11-02 16:21:26 <BlueMatt> breaking a specific case*
 901 2011-11-02 16:21:31 <graingert> hey can find collisions in SHA-1 in 269 calculations,
 902 2011-11-02 16:21:37 <graingert> 2^69
 903 2011-11-02 16:21:45 <BlueMatt> very different numbers...
 904 2011-11-02 16:21:54 <graingert> lol
 905 2011-11-02 16:21:56 <graingert> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/02/cryptanalysis_o.html
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 907 2011-11-02 16:25:31 <BlueMatt> why is kernel 3.1 still not on kernel.org?
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 909 2011-11-02 16:25:58 <BlueMatt> linus tagged it 9 days ago
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 912 2011-11-02 16:27:22 <luke-jr> dunno, I'm upgrading at my next reboot
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 915 2011-11-02 16:32:35 <kinlo> I think kernel.org still hasn't recovered from their hack
 916 2011-11-02 16:33:08 <kinlo> I don't really get it, I think the owner/team behind kernel.org is kinda fed-up with maintaining it and doesn't seem to care that much anymore
 917 2011-11-02 16:33:25 <kinlo> at least that's the impression that they give
 918 2011-11-02 16:33:49 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|phungus: I do apparently
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 922 2011-11-02 16:35:26 <ThomasV> ok, how do I output error messages that are returned with error() ?
 923 2011-11-02 16:35:41 <da2ce7> TheRubberChick-1, how did you experment go?
 924 2011-11-02 16:36:00 <TheRubberChick-1> 80% returned
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 927 2011-11-02 16:36:34 <TheRubberChicken> pretty impressed with that
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 940 2011-11-02 16:58:04 <phungus> oh you do?
 941 2011-11-02 16:58:20 <phungus> :-)
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 968 2011-11-02 17:47:46 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: add ;;blocks that lists both bc and nmc and possibly others
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1016 2011-11-02 18:29:26 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r729873c26165 /src/network/ (channel.cpp channel.hpp): Templated function for channel sends since channels are internal.
1017 2011-11-02 18:29:28 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r8d174bc8616f / (include/bitcoin/dialect.hpp src/dialect.cpp): No need to pass header when deserialising streams because checking is done inside channel
1018 2011-11-02 18:29:29 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r20f531a18dc5 / (5 files in 5 dirs): tx serialisation + unit test.
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1047 2011-11-02 18:59:16 <Diablo-D3> lol
1048 2011-11-02 18:59:23 <Diablo-D3> bernake is lying right as I speak
1049 2011-11-02 18:59:32 <cocktopus> bernaked?
1050 2011-11-02 18:59:33 <Diablo-D3> hes claiming that inflation is stable
1051 2011-11-02 18:59:45 <cocktopus> lol
1052 2011-11-02 18:59:52 <Diablo-D3> of course it is!
1053 2011-11-02 18:59:58 <Diablo-D3> AT AN UNGODLY HIGH RATE
1054 2011-11-02 19:00:05 <cocktopus> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000%
1055 2011-11-02 19:00:08 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1056 2011-11-02 19:00:10 <Diablo-D3> no, 2%
1057 2011-11-02 19:00:14 <Diablo-D3> which is over 9000
1058 2011-11-02 19:00:49 <cocktopus>  i am getting poorer by the day then
1059 2011-11-02 19:00:50 <cocktopus> fml
1060 2011-11-02 19:01:07 <Diablo-D3> inflation should reflect a balance of population growth, gdp growth, and asset value growth
1061 2011-11-02 19:01:10 * copumpkin lets his "riches" trickle down all over cocktopus's face
1062 2011-11-02 19:01:28 <Diablo-D3> nominally post-great depression, 2% my fat dick.
1063 2011-11-02 19:01:32 <cocktopus> i have more e-penises than you copumpkin
1064 2011-11-02 19:01:51 <cocktopus> 8 tbh
1065 2011-11-02 19:01:59 <Diablo-D3> I had to make my e-penis four dimensional so I could fit it in my pants
1066 2011-11-02 19:02:19 <cocktopus> i didn't say they were particularly large
1067 2011-11-02 19:02:24 <cocktopus> just numerous
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1091 2011-11-02 19:25:39 <amiller> $25 if someone writes a game of 'battleship' using the bitcoin scripting language
1092 2011-11-02 19:26:27 <amiller> or tictactoe whichever is easier i suppose https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
1093 2011-11-02 19:26:30 <luke-jr> …
1094 2011-11-02 19:26:41 <luke-jr> amiller: require they support merged mining
1095 2011-11-02 19:26:51 <luke-jr> also, $25 ain't much
1096 2011-11-02 19:26:52 <amiller> blah blah
1097 2011-11-02 19:27:09 <gmaxwell> bemasc: /window 5
1098 2011-11-02 19:27:12 <gmaxwell> oops
1099 2011-11-02 19:27:13 <MartianW> amiller, it doesn't seem too hard.
1100 2011-11-02 19:27:15 <amiller> like you said, it's not merged mining
1101 2011-11-02 19:27:19 <luke-jr> it should be
1102 2011-11-02 19:27:21 <MartianW> Isn't it just forth?
1103 2011-11-02 19:27:23 <luke-jr> don't clutter the main chain
1104 2011-11-02 19:27:37 <BlueMatt> do it on testnet
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1108 2011-11-02 19:30:01 <amiller> i'm really not sure how you'd go about it
1109 2011-11-02 19:30:06 <amiller> since it would take multiple rounds
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1111 2011-11-02 19:30:28 <amiller> but it's clear that its possible
1112 2011-11-02 19:31:09 <luke-jr> oh wait
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1114 2011-11-02 19:31:19 <luke-jr> you mean a Script where you need to win the game to redeem the coins?
1115 2011-11-02 19:31:23 <luke-jr> hmmm :o
1116 2011-11-02 19:31:37 <amiller> yeah i think that's the natural thing to do
1117 2011-11-02 19:31:51 <luke-jr> I thought you meant play vs someone over Bitcoin
1118 2011-11-02 19:32:12 <luke-jr> so long as the computer goes first, tic-tac-toe would be unredeemable ;)
1119 2011-11-02 19:32:44 <amiller> hah no just assume there are two different players
1120 2011-11-02 19:32:48 <amiller> their public keys are defined in the first message
1121 2011-11-02 19:33:14 <luke-jr> …
1122 2011-11-02 19:33:21 <luke-jr> so you DO mean playing against someone :P
1123 2011-11-02 19:33:31 <amiller> yes
1124 2011-11-02 19:33:34 <amiller> whoever wins gets the bitcoins
1125 2011-11-02 19:34:05 <BlueMatt> you cant reference previous txes in scripts...
1126 2011-11-02 19:34:25 <amiller> but you can bring state along with you to the next tx can't you
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1128 2011-11-02 19:35:13 <BlueMatt> no
1129 2011-11-02 19:35:28 <luke-jr> you could have it so you need to play the game, and post the results
1130 2011-11-02 19:35:39 <luke-jr> it would be huge for battleship
1131 2011-11-02 19:35:45 <luke-jr> you'd need a hash for every spot on the board
1132 2011-11-02 19:35:59 <amiller> no you just wouldn't store it like that
1133 2011-11-02 19:36:05 <luke-jr> you'd need to
1134 2011-11-02 19:36:05 <amiller> it would be compressed
1135 2011-11-02 19:36:14 <luke-jr> you can't compress in scripts
1136 2011-11-02 19:36:54 <gmaxwell> scripts have no recursion or looping.. so the complexity of the program is proportional to the script size.
1137 2011-11-02 19:37:14 <gmaxwell> e.g. you can have a script serialize out every possible decision path, but the size of the script grows exponentially.
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1139 2011-11-02 19:37:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: he said one player plays another, not you play the computer (which operates in a script)
1140 2011-11-02 19:38:01 <luke-jr> basically, the redeeming script would need to provide: 1) for each player's board, the cleartext "how it looks" and a nonce to prevent bruteforcing it; 2) signed "moves" by each player
1141 2011-11-02 19:38:16 ej__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1142 2011-11-02 19:38:17 <amiller> luke-jr, right
1143 2011-11-02 19:38:31 <luke-jr> the scriptPk would need to verify the boards are correct, and that the moves are legal and which key won
1144 2011-11-02 19:39:13 <luke-jr> and when all is said and done, this is missing a way to "force" your opponent to reveal his board when the game is over
1145 2011-11-02 19:39:31 <luke-jr> maybe only the winner's board needs to be revealed
1146 2011-11-02 19:39:34 <luke-jr> to ensure *he* didn't cheat
1147 2011-11-02 19:39:39 <amiller> right
1148 2011-11-02 19:39:47 <amiller> luke-jr, we are definitely missing a primtiive to support a secret board
1149 2011-11-02 19:40:04 <BlueMatt> you guys do realize there is a limit on script size?
1150 2011-11-02 19:40:09 <amiller> you can do it with noninteractive zero knowledge proofs
1151 2011-11-02 19:40:10 <luke-jr> put hash(board data + nonce) for each player in the scriptPk
1152 2011-11-02 19:40:18 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
1153 2011-11-02 19:40:37 <amiller> BlueMatt, nonsense!
1154 2011-11-02 19:41:09 <amiller> BlueMatt, i don't necessarily care about fitting this into 'the' bitcoin
1155 2011-11-02 19:41:40 <luke-jr> what'd really be cool, would be a way to calculate an encrypted(pubkey) where the person creating it doesn't know pubkey, and doesn't have the encryption privkey
1156 2011-11-02 19:41:59 <luke-jr> err
1157 2011-11-02 19:42:04 <luke-jr> s/pubkey/privkey/
1158 2011-11-02 19:42:29 <amiller> luke-jr, suppose you could compute encrypted(a+b), given encrypt(a) and encrypted(b)
1159 2011-11-02 19:42:40 <amiller> encrtyped(a)*
1160 2011-11-02 19:44:12 <helo> wasn't there some IBM project that allowed operations on encrypted data without decrypting it?
1161 2011-11-02 19:44:24 <amiller> homomorphic encryption
1162 2011-11-02 19:44:30 <amiller> and non interactive zero knowledge proofs are related
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1164 2011-11-02 19:45:24 <amiller> this guy's thesis in 2009 was kind of the breaking point for this area  http://crypto.stanford.edu/craig/craig-thesis.pdf
1165 2011-11-02 19:45:45 <gmaxwell> amiller: go build an actual system that allows you to do some kind of useful hash commitment znp so we can demonstrate it with bitcoin. It's possible, but AFAIK no actual implementations exist.
1166 2011-11-02 19:45:50 <gmaxwell> :)
1167 2011-11-02 19:46:03 <amiller> this paper on it is my favorite
1168 2011-11-02 19:46:03 <amiller> http://www.daimi.au.dk/~jg/ShortNIZK.pdf
1169 2011-11-02 19:46:25 <gmaxwell> A system that allows you to sell inverses to md5 hashes with bitcoin would be a really awesome demonstration.
1170 2011-11-02 19:46:27 <amiller> this library 'pairing based cryptography' has some of the primitives http://crypto.stanford.edu/pbc/
1171 2011-11-02 19:47:02 <amiller> the current state of the art for pairing based crypto is very slow, too :(
1172 2011-11-02 19:48:02 <amiller> gmaxwell, i think i could do a commitment to an el gamal key...
1173 2011-11-02 19:48:28 <amiller> anyway today i'm more interested in the somewhat simpler problem
1174 2011-11-02 19:48:37 <amiller> leaving 'secrecy' alone for now, so tic tac toe rather than battleship
1175 2011-11-02 19:49:23 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
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1177 2011-11-02 19:49:27 <gmaxwell> amiller: its all super easy if you just commit to the code of an agent.
1178 2011-11-02 19:49:40 <gmaxwell> well for some definition of super and easy.
1179 2011-11-02 19:50:04 MartianW has left ("Bye all.")
1180 2011-11-02 19:50:20 <amiller> well that's kind of the trick of the 2009 thesis
1181 2011-11-02 19:50:25 * helo suddenly looks up
1182 2011-11-02 19:50:28 <amiller> you can do that, but you get exponential commitment size with the depth of the agent's code
1183 2011-11-02 19:50:36 <amiller> but you can break it into small chunks
1184 2011-11-02 19:50:42 <amiller> and effectively 'reencrypt' it each step
1185 2011-11-02 19:50:53 <amiller> bootstrapped homomorphic encryption
1186 2011-11-02 19:51:11 <amiller> no i don't know exactly how to implement that :p
1187 2011-11-02 19:51:37 <luke-jr> [15:32:57] <gmaxwell> A system that allows you to sell inverses to md5 hashes with bitcoin would be a really awesome demonstration. <-- or any data
1188 2011-11-02 19:52:01 <luke-jr> in fact, I suspect such a function would obsolete bitcoin
1189 2011-11-02 19:52:39 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: well, in _THEORY_ any data you can validate with a program you can make a trade conditional on.. but in practice it's super duper hard because you have to convert the validator program PLUS a block cipher into a zero knoweldge proof.
1190 2011-11-02 19:52:56 <gmaxwell> And bitcoin already has the one thing it needs to play its part in this.
1191 2011-11-02 19:53:12 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you'd also need to verify it isn't a double-spend ;)
1192 2011-11-02 19:53:13 <gmaxwell> (the ability to make txn which are hash+public key locked)
1193 2011-11-02 19:54:15 <amiller> i think this would be useful for stuff outside bitcoin
1194 2011-11-02 19:54:20 <amiller> it's not really part of the 'cash' problem
1195 2011-11-02 19:54:22 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r00e2e97aff74 /examples/subvertx/mktx.cpp: mktx - tool for making a transaction from one output to another.
1196 2011-11-02 19:54:37 <amiller> but it is similar to bitcoin in that you're playing a game in secret, but it's verified by the public
1197 2011-11-02 19:54:57 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: the way it works is out-of-band you and I do a zero knoweldge proof where I prove to you that I know: A solution to your question, which is encrypted with a key giving X, and the key is hashed giving Y. And then you make a txn that makes me publish something that hashes to Y to redeem.
1198 2011-11-02 19:55:52 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
1199 2011-11-02 19:55:59 <gmaxwell> And it's been proven that you can convert any program into such a proof. But actually doing so for any program anyone would care to use to validate some data is nontrivial.
1200 2011-11-02 19:56:55 <luke-jr> amiller: no, if there was a solution to this, bitcoin wouldn't be needed
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1202 2011-11-02 19:57:06 <amiller> gmaxwell, i'd say it's worth keeping in mind and checking up every so often
1203 2011-11-02 19:57:07 <luke-jr> amiller: you could just maintain a history locally for your coins and send that to anyone
1204 2011-11-02 19:58:10 <amiller> BlueMatt said there was no way for one tx to pass its state along to the next tx
1205 2011-11-02 19:59:00 <amiller> i can't tell if that's true or not
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1212 2011-11-02 20:10:41 <amiller> some of the speculative examples in this wiki page use an 'IF' statement of some kind https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
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1214 2011-11-02 20:11:53 Acciaio has joined
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1216 2011-11-02 20:14:05 <Acciaio> Hi all, isn't usefull implement a messaging system in bitcoin client?
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1219 2011-11-02 20:15:11 <gmaxwell> Acciaio: There are many messaging systems.
1220 2011-11-02 20:15:28 <gmaxwell> You don't need bitcoin for messaging.
1221 2011-11-02 20:15:45 <gmaxwell> "Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail"
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1224 2011-11-02 20:19:03 <Acciaio> but I hope sometime is nice to send a short message with your bitcoin transaction
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1227 2011-11-02 20:21:33 <Eliel> gmaxwell: bitcoin has a somewhat unique position in that it's handling encryption keys that need to be well secured. Bitcoin account keys have therefore relatively good chance to becoming pretty standard way of identifying people. encrypted messaging included.
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1229 2011-11-02 20:24:30 <gmaxwell> Eliel: er, except bitcoin has really bad privacy properties if you don't use your addresses as ephemerially as possible.
1230 2011-11-02 20:24:41 <gmaxwell> Though we do have signmessage now…
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1232 2011-11-02 20:25:11 <Eliel> gmaxwell: you only need one address for messaging :)
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1235 2011-11-02 20:25:43 <Eliel> and it doesn't have to be used to receive bitcoins.
1236 2011-11-02 20:26:30 <amiller> gmaxwell, what's the best way to keep up with which features like that are implemented
1237 2011-11-02 20:26:33 <Eliel> although, if you use it as an identity, it can be very useful if you wish to make entirely public transactions.
1238 2011-11-02 20:26:37 <gmaxwell> amiller: git pull
1239 2011-11-02 20:27:15 <gmaxwell> the bitcoin codebase is small, I don't have any difficulty reading almost all the commits. (well, the qt stuff was disruptive but otherwise it's pretty low volume)
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1253 2011-11-02 20:41:23 <luke-jr> [16:05:35] <Acciaio> but I hope sometime is nice to send a short message with your bitcoin transaction <-- use email
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1255 2011-11-02 20:42:21 <luke-jr> ok, I'm gonna reboot to upgrade Linux… bbiab
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1276 2011-11-02 20:51:02 <amiller> bitinventory.com is great
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1278 2011-11-02 20:51:22 <amiller> the only way it would be better is if the java applet had Lucre in it so it could do blinding, like blindbitcoin used to do with javascrit
1279 2011-11-02 20:54:15 <Eliel> bitinventory.com doesn't exist.
1280 2011-11-02 20:54:27 <Eliel> or a least doesn't resolve for me
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1284 2011-11-02 21:08:53 <Eliel> ah, it's bitventory.com
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1290 2011-11-02 21:17:16 <luke-jr> anyone know slush's email?
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1309 2011-11-02 21:46:43 <ByteCoin> ping gavinandresen
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1314 2011-11-02 21:56:00 <gjs278> ping: unknown host gavinandresen
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1321 2011-11-02 22:04:13 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * rc59dec123893 /examples/subvertx/priv.cpp: Add address command to priv help.
1322 2011-11-02 22:04:14 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * rb011cafa0e4e /examples/subvertx/mktx.cpp: Use public key from private key to find previous output address.
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1326 2011-11-02 22:08:47 <ByteCoin> What's the best way to comment on or discuss a BIP?
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1328 2011-11-02 22:09:18 <luke-jr> the Talk page?
1329 2011-11-02 22:09:33 <ByteCoin> Link plz?
1330 2011-11-02 22:11:22 <ByteCoin> I'm looking at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0012
1331 2011-11-02 22:11:28 <ByteCoin> I don't see a "Talk" page
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1342 2011-11-02 22:24:29 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * f763093afec2 r182 / (10 files in 6 dirs):
1343 2011-11-02 22:24:29 <CIA-34> poolserverj: Update to generate merged mining auxPoW internally. This completely removes the dependency on bitcoind-mm version and allows us to use stock bitcoind which is nifty since it contains getmemorypool and we need that.
1344 2011-11-02 22:24:29 <CIA-34> poolserverj: A point to note: hashes in the 2 merkle branches contained in auxpow are reversed compared to a transaction hash in the main block merkle tree.
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1354 2011-11-02 22:34:47 <luke-jr> ByteCoin: you need to login ofc
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1366 2011-11-02 22:51:55 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|hey guys. i'm thinking of ideas to make litecoin more secure against 51% attack. and i'd like to see what people here think about it
1367 2011-11-02 22:53:05 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|My idea is using auto block lockin to fight against 51% attacks. Basically each client will automatically lock in a block that already has 120 confirmations. If some node tries to send them a reorg that tries to reorg more than 120 blocks, it will be rejected.
1368 2011-11-02 22:53:16 <luke-jr> …
1369 2011-11-02 22:53:22 <luke-jr> that doesn't even *resist* 51%
1370 2011-11-02 22:53:27 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|getinfo can show which block your client has locked and i can add an RPC call that you can make to unlock yourself in case something totally screwed up
1371 2011-11-02 22:53:44 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: that just means that any nontrivial network partition converts you from one currency into two.
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1374 2011-11-02 22:54:11 <luke-jr> well, I guess it does resist a long 51%
1375 2011-11-02 22:54:15 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: also leaves offline nodes up for fun attacks.
1376 2011-11-02 22:54:16 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|you can 51% for a few blocks. but not more than 120. so any coins mined and with 120 confirmed is good
1377 2011-11-02 22:54:31 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it's a bigger problem without partitioning
1378 2011-11-02 22:54:38 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|gmaxwell: has bitcoin experienced a nontrivial network partition?
1379 2011-11-02 22:54:44 <luke-jr> any reorg over 100 blocks *should* lock the client probably
1380 2011-11-02 22:54:48 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: Yes. In the past.
1381 2011-11-02 22:55:06 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: but which side should lock and which side should continue?
1382 2011-11-02 22:55:13 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: both should lock.
1383 2011-11-02 22:55:17 <luke-jr> err
1384 2011-11-02 22:55:20 <luke-jr> the smaller side
1385 2011-11-02 22:55:39 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|maybe we need a case where if something like this happens, the user has to make a decision
1386 2011-11-02 22:55:41 <gmaxwell> Refusal to reorg != locking.
1387 2011-11-02 22:55:50 <luke-jr> it should lock.
1388 2011-11-02 22:56:03 <gmaxwell> and when different users pick different choices?
1389 2011-11-02 22:56:04 <luke-jr> at least if you depend on the generation being reorganized
1390 2011-11-02 22:56:11 <luke-jr> …
1391 2011-11-02 22:56:13 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|gmaxwell: then you split the coin into 2
1392 2011-11-02 22:56:19 <BlueMatt> note that esp for smaller, less well-established currencies, the partitioning issue may be worse...
1393 2011-11-02 22:56:20 <gmaxwell> what _you_ depend on doesn't matter. What the _network_ depends on matters.
1394 2011-11-02 22:56:34 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|but you let people (pools and exchanges) vote on which one to accept
1395 2011-11-02 22:56:41 <luke-jr> if the reorg would change your wallet, you should lock up until a human has vetted it
1396 2011-11-02 22:56:43 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVM•AVTEM•CENSEO•FDP•ESSE•DELENDVM)
1397 2011-11-02 22:57:15 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|luke-jr: any small reorg will change your wallet. that's what orphans are right?
1398 2011-11-02 22:57:16 <luke-jr> ie, if you were paid with a coinbase that is no longer valid
1399 2011-11-02 22:57:32 <luke-jr> coblee|2: no, usually not
1400 2011-11-02 22:57:46 <luke-jr> coblee|2: worst case, they usually just reset your transaction to 0 confirmations
1401 2011-11-02 22:57:49 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|well, the orphaned block would not have been confirmed.
1402 2011-11-02 22:58:36 <luke-jr> "removing generation under 100 confirmations" wouldn't be considered a change, IMO
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1404 2011-11-02 22:59:50 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|luke-jr: even if a reorg changed your wallet, locking up your client until you have vetted won't do you any good, right?
1405 2011-11-02 23:00:08 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|if all the other clients accepted the reorg, you would have to accept also
1406 2011-11-02 23:00:56 <luke-jr> coblee|2: it can
1407 2011-11-02 23:01:17 <luke-jr> you would need to accept it eventually *if* the world didn't decide the reorg was bad for some reason
1408 2011-11-02 23:01:28 <luke-jr> but even still, your applications would stop automatically doing stuff
1409 2011-11-02 23:02:29 <luke-jr> for example, an ewallet provider might accept a deposit of 500 BTC, which is reversed in the reorg; if his wallet doesn't lock up, someone might be able to withdraw that 500 BTC he no longer has
1410 2011-11-02 23:03:14 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|luke-jr: yup, and i know doublec has added code in his client to detect these reorgs and lock up the client
1411 2011-11-02 23:03:29 <luke-jr> if the wallet locks up, that withdrawl will fail until a human has vetted (and presumably adjusted the ewallet db) the reversal
1412 2011-11-02 23:04:41 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|yup, it makes sense
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1414 2011-11-02 23:05:38 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|what i'm proposing is a bit different. i'm just proposing auto block lockin so that it will reject reorgs larger than 120 blocks
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1416 2011-11-02 23:05:59 <luke-jr> I'm not sure that's better.
1417 2011-11-02 23:06:16 <luke-jr> also, it should be 100 :p
1418 2011-11-02 23:07:46 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|in the case of an real 51% attack past the 120 blocks, all good clients will reject it and the attacker will have forked his own chain. and when i see such an attack. i can hardcode the block hash into the code so that new users will not be on the attackers fork
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1420 2011-11-02 23:08:38 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|in the case of a nontrivial network partition. people that happen to get stuck on a bad fork, they will eventually realize it when most of the pools and exchanges are on a different fork. they can then run a command to undo the block lockin and accept the reorg
1421 2011-11-02 23:08:44 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|luke-jr: why 100?
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1423 2011-11-02 23:10:16 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: It worries me that you keep thinking of this as erasing the attackers chain, it could easily erase the other chain. The nodes can't tell.
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1426 2011-11-02 23:12:01 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: I can easily set it up so that my chain will be the one that wins by choosing when overtaking happens(right before the 120 mark), thus forking off the other side.
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1430 2011-11-02 23:14:28 <genjix> ;;seen cdecker
1431 2011-11-02 23:14:28 <gribble> cdecker was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 15 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours, 43 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <cdecker> Near field communication
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1433 2011-11-02 23:14:48 <gmaxwell> I can also do fun stuff like isolate you on the network, feed you 120 of my blocks. .. and then you'll forever be on the chain I control
1434 2011-11-02 23:14:56 <gmaxwell> I don't even have to maintain a lot of hash power.
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1437 2011-11-02 23:15:23 <gmaxwell> And by proxying transactions, you'll think things are working normally.
1438 2011-11-02 23:16:21 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|hmm, you have a good point
1439 2011-11-02 23:16:32 <luke-jr> coblee|2: because 100 is how many confirmations are required to spend generation
1440 2011-11-02 23:16:36 <doublec> coblee|2: it doesn't help the exchange double spend situation either
1441 2011-11-02 23:16:48 <doublec> coblee|2: since they only need to rewrite past your deposit confirmation limit
1442 2011-11-02 23:16:53 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|luke-jr: i thought it was 120. or is that just what the client shows
1443 2011-11-02 23:17:15 <luke-jr> coblee|2: that's a client thing
1444 2011-11-02 23:17:21 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|doublec: for exchange double spend. you need to make sure that each user cannot withdraw coins exchanged for coins that are not mature yet
1445 2011-11-02 23:17:33 <gmaxwell> also any value which will be high enough that it won't often have failures naturally due to network partitions.. will probably be too high for waiting for security.
1446 2011-11-02 23:17:34 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|so for 120 ltc confirmation, that's about 5 hours
1447 2011-11-02 23:17:57 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: major 5 hour intenet partitions happen every couple of years.
1448 2011-11-02 23:18:03 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|so users can't deposit ltc, exchange for btc, and withdraw btc right away. they would need to wait about 5 hours for the deposited ltc to have cleared
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1452 2011-11-02 23:18:15 <doublec> coblee|2: the i0coin exchange had regular reorgs greater than 100
1453 2011-11-02 23:18:34 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|doublec: due to attacks, right?
1454 2011-11-02 23:18:37 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: so if you lock in at 5 hours regular internet burps may well kill you.
1455 2011-11-02 23:18:58 <doublec> coblee|2: not all attacks, even after I closed the exchange and had it in withdraw mode only it was happenning
1456 2011-11-02 23:19:02 <genjix> gmaxwell: you can't do it to me.
1457 2011-11-02 23:19:05 <doublec> coblee|2: maybe they were attacking someone else, I don't know
1458 2011-11-02 23:19:51 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|doublec: i'm pretty sure those were attacks, maybe not intentional. i0coin has like 5 ghash total network speed. I can attack that myself for the heck of it
1459 2011-11-02 23:21:13 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|gmaxwell: these 5 hour internet partitions would already hurt people on the wrong side of the partition, right?
1460 2011-11-02 23:21:28 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|all the blocks they are working on would be undone
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1462 2011-11-02 23:21:53 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: yes. but you wouldn't end up with two independant currencies. (Also, this is why the time to spend new generations is so high in bitcoin)
1463 2011-11-02 23:22:19 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|it's about 17 hours, right?
1464 2011-11-02 23:22:25 <luke-jr> the least-damaging option is to lock the client until a human has reviewed the reversed transactions
1465 2011-11-02 23:22:25 <gmaxwell> except for actual double spends, almost all the could and would be restored automatically.
1466 2011-11-02 23:22:42 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: no, thats not an improvement. sadly. Your choice doesn't matter.
1467 2011-11-02 23:22:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I already gave an example where it makes a big difference
1468 2011-11-02 23:23:05 <gmaxwell> You can say "no! I refuse this reorg" but too bad when the rest of the network takes it.
1469 2011-11-02 23:23:15 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: invisibly reversing stuff can easily confuse services
1470 2011-11-02 23:23:28 <doublec> also the reversal happens after they've stolen funds
1471 2011-11-02 23:23:29 <gmaxwell> okay, sure independantly, thats interesting.
1472 2011-11-02 23:23:34 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I'll deposit 500 BTC I just mined, then withdraw it after it's reversed by the reorg
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1474 2011-11-02 23:24:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: locking the client makes that withdrawl error
1475 2011-11-02 23:24:07 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you withdraw it before the reversal.
1476 2011-11-02 23:24:13 <luke-jr> no, I withdraw it after
1477 2011-11-02 23:24:41 <gmaxwell> The point I'm making is that the protection doesnt' buy you much. The attacker would _normally_ withdraw first.
1478 2011-11-02 23:24:44 <luke-jr> nothing stops me, if the client doesn't lock
1479 2011-11-02 23:25:00 <luke-jr> oh, I see what you mean
1480 2011-11-02 23:25:24 <luke-jr> hmm
1481 2011-11-02 23:25:48 <doublec> yes, they release their fork after they've withdrawn
1482 2011-11-02 23:25:52 <gmaxwell> In any case— good klaxons are a good thing, and we should have more— for big reorgs, network health, etc.
1483 2011-11-02 23:26:05 <luke-jr> I guess what is needed, then, is a way to detect a large split
1484 2011-11-02 23:26:10 <doublec> I'd like a tool that examines the forks and shows what transations are missing
1485 2011-11-02 23:26:17 <luke-jr> like say, over 50% of the hashrate dropping off at once
1486 2011-11-02 23:26:36 <doublec> even part of the json api so exchanges can detect reorgs and adjust balanaces, etc
1487 2011-11-02 23:26:40 <gmaxwell> right. it should detect partions and you should  be able to tell your client "if things look weird, I'd arther you just keep telling me txn are not confirmed"
1488 2011-11-02 23:26:46 <luke-jr> and refuse to confirm transactions that arrive after that point, until it picks back up
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1490 2011-11-02 23:30:49 <genjix> i dont think reversed transactions are a worry
1491 2011-11-02 23:30:54 <genjix> it's all about risk/reward
1492 2011-11-02 23:31:10 <genjix> for large amounts, require more confirms.
1493 2011-11-02 23:31:32 <genjix> for the rare occasion a tx is reversed, then pony up the money to cover the lost funds (and it is really rare)
1494 2011-11-02 23:31:48 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|gmaxwell: back to your possible attack vectors. if you isolate someone and feed them 120 blocks. it will take you a long time to generate 120 blocks. (5 hours if you can match the network hashrate) is that attack even worthwhile?
1495 2011-11-02 23:31:54 <genjix> your actual loss should probably always be 0
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1497 2011-11-02 23:32:14 <genjix> risk * loss would be a very very very small number
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1502 2011-11-02 23:40:33 <doublec> genjix: coblee|2 is working on a lower hash rate chain where reversals are more of a possibility
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1504 2011-11-02 23:40:58 <doublec> genjix: for example, the i0coin exchange had successfull reversals pulled off
1505 2011-11-02 23:41:25 <doublec> genjix: more confirms don't help if the attacker has >50%
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1509 2011-11-02 23:44:43 <genjix> doublec: i see.
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1511 2011-11-02 23:47:49 <genjix> btw there is tons of illegal stuff on the wiki Trade page
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1514 2011-11-02 23:50:46 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: here is a take on it. Assume no checkpoints for the moment.  I mine 120 blocks starting at block 1 at minimal difficulty. cheap cheap cheap. Then I search for new nodes and stuff them with my 120 blocks as fast as I can, peeling off clients into bizarro universe
1515 2011-11-02 23:51:32 <gmaxwell> Now— you say, "but I'll add checkpoints",  but it's a losing battle: you'd have to constantly add new checkpoints in order to prevent attackers with far _less_ than 50% power from picking off nodes without knoweldge of the current chain.
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1517 2011-11-02 23:51:58 <gmaxwell> And if you really have a way of trustworthily adding checkpoints in a fast manner, you don't need all this distributed hashchain crap.
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1519 2011-11-02 23:53:46 <gmaxwell> as far as the isolation attack goes— it's worthwhile if attacking is at all worthwhile.
1520 2011-11-02 23:54:42 <gmaxwell> Keep in mind that if you actually have a majority of the hashpower then you're usually better of playing nice than debasing the service. Though this doesn't apply when you're able to exhcange out quickly.
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1522 2011-11-02 23:55:36 <gmaxwell> also, reorg resistance only stands in the way of one of the two main majority attack problems.
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1524 2011-11-02 23:55:51 <gmaxwell> (the other one is the ability to control block content)
1525 2011-11-02 23:58:16 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|gmaxwell: in your case, you are attacking a new chain right? but for an existing chain like litecoin, where mining 120 blocks will take about 3500 cpu hours, it's not that easy
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1527 2011-11-02 23:58:44 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|oh wait, you are talking about attacking new users before they've downloaded the blocks
1528 2011-11-02 23:58:48 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1529 2011-11-02 23:58:59 <gmaxwell> or as they download blocks.
1530 2011-11-02 23:59:01 zhoutong has joined
1531 2011-11-02 23:59:06 <gmaxwell> I don't even have to partition them.
1532 2011-11-02 23:59:54 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|i see but they won't be able to pass the checkpoint at block 2016. how does that benefit you other than creating trouble?