1 2011-11-03 00:01:24 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|gmaxwell: can you explain the problem with the ability to control block content?
   2 2011-11-03 00:01:46 <gmaxwell> hold on, lets stay on the prior case for a minute.
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   6 2011-11-03 00:02:40 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: I can always do that attack at the highest checkpoint in use. And unless you update that checkpoint quite often, it will be possible to do that attack with an increasingly small fraction of the network hash power.
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   8 2011-11-03 00:03:22 <gmaxwell> And once I've done the attack against a bunch of nodes, who are _you_ to say that my chain isn't legit?
   9 2011-11-03 00:03:47 <gmaxwell> If people can trust you to do that, and do it frequently, then we don't need a pow hash chain to confirm txn, we can just ask you to do so.
  10 2011-11-03 00:03:52 <gmaxwell> :)
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  13 2011-11-03 00:05:12 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|gmaxwell: but your nodes won't be able to go past 2016 because there's a checkpoint there
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  15 2011-11-03 00:06:01 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: I could _start_ at 2016. It would take more hashing but much less than 120 blocks worth at the current height.
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  17 2011-11-03 00:06:07 <doublec> coblee|2: the attack will start from 2016
  18 2011-11-03 00:06:08 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|the highest checkpoint is currently 23420 and diff is already very big. so finding 120 blocks from that point on is expensive
  19 2011-11-03 00:06:16 <doublec> or whatever the checkpoint is
  20 2011-11-03 00:06:42 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: at the moment, yes, but it won't seem so big in 6 months.
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  22 2011-11-03 00:06:55 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|finding 120 blocks from blck 23420 will take 3500 8-core cpu hours
  23 2011-11-03 00:07:13 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|but, i do see your point
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  25 2011-11-03 00:07:26 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|there's no bullet proof solution to this problem
  26 2011-11-03 00:07:33 <gmaxwell> Basically the anti split login means everyone depends on new trustworthy checkpoints to come frequently enough to make this an unattractive attack..
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  28 2011-11-03 00:07:49 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|then it becomes centralized
  29 2011-11-03 00:07:52 <doublec> isn't adding regular checkpoints essentially centralizing
  30 2011-11-03 00:07:53 <doublec> right
  31 2011-11-03 00:07:57 <doublec> I'm too slow :)
  32 2011-11-03 00:08:06 <genjix> doublec: im not so sure
  33 2011-11-03 00:08:16 <gmaxwell> and as soon as I pull off that attack _once_ then some people will prefer my chain and be really mad if you introduce a new checkpoint.
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  35 2011-11-03 00:08:34 <gmaxwell> genjix: they aren't in bitcoin, but only because they're added far in the past.
  36 2011-11-03 00:08:39 <genjix> yep
  37 2011-11-03 00:08:46 <gmaxwell> when there is no viable chain that they could be rejecting.
  38 2011-11-03 00:08:54 <gmaxwell> I guess I should publish what I wrote on that subject.
  39 2011-11-03 00:08:55 <doublec> genjix: I'm meaning checkpoints every 1000 blocks for example
  40 2011-11-03 00:09:07 <genjix> yeah you're right then
  41 2011-11-03 00:09:10 <genjix> that is too early
  42 2011-11-03 00:09:12 <doublec> or someone publishing a list of "these checkpoints are valid for my chain"
  43 2011-11-03 00:09:19 <doublec> "the one true chain"
  44 2011-11-03 00:09:51 <doublec> "if you want to use my exchange, you need to take my checkpoints"
  45 2011-11-03 00:09:53 <genjix> i wrote a few paragraphs about the centralising influence of checkpoints
  46 2011-11-03 00:10:02 * doublec considered that for the i0/ixcoin exchanges
  47 2011-11-03 00:10:10 <gmaxwell> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/bc_checkpoints.txt
  48 2011-11-03 00:10:16 <imsaguy> speaking of, anyone wanna clear out some old ixcoin?
  49 2011-11-03 00:10:25 <genjix> http://privatepaste.com/9a53562df0
  50 2011-11-03 00:10:33 <batouzo> imsaguy: I can consider for ok price
  51 2011-11-03 00:10:39 <gmaxwell> I wrote that in response to someone claiming that bitcoin wasn't decenteralized due to checkpoints.
  52 2011-11-03 00:10:43 <genjix> interesting idea. a market place of checkpoints
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  54 2011-11-03 00:10:58 <genjix> gmaxwell: hah i wrote that above to ben laurie too
  55 2011-11-03 00:11:09 <genjix> this one: http://privatepaste.com/9a53562df0
  56 2011-11-03 00:11:16 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|doublec: it doesn't matter if your users take your checkpoints. if less than 50% of users are not taking your checkpoints, the attacker can still 51% you. you will just be stuck on the wrong chain. but then nobody can use your exchange, unless they get on your chain
  57 2011-11-03 00:11:19 <genjix> woah but yours is longer
  58 2011-11-03 00:11:51 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|so only works if everything is centralized around your exchange
  59 2011-11-03 00:12:02 <doublec> coblee|2: my "take my checkpoints" idea was I'd be the true chain, and therefore could never be on the wrong one
  60 2011-11-03 00:12:09 <doublec> coblee|2: ie. centralized to the max
  61 2011-11-03 00:12:14 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|nice
  62 2011-11-03 00:12:41 <doublec> coblee|2: but doesn't help if there's more than one exchange of course
  63 2011-11-03 00:13:06 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|double, you should stop channeling RealSolid :)
  64 2011-11-03 00:13:20 <doublec> coblee|2: hehe
  65 2011-11-03 00:13:52 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|RealSolid: "download my new binary or else you won't be on the true chain"
  66 2011-11-03 00:14:10 <gmaxwell> genjix: I have that problem.
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  77 2011-11-03 00:23:48 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|gmaxwell: so do you think auto lockin is a very bad idea?
  78 2011-11-03 00:24:24 <graingert> auto locking?
  79 2011-11-03 00:24:53 <graingert> coblee|2: you mean like locking the wallet?
  80 2011-11-03 00:24:57 <graingert> or what
  81 2011-11-03 00:25:19 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|no lock in a block hash for a block that has 100 confirmations
  82 2011-11-03 00:25:26 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|so a reorg can't go past it
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  85 2011-11-03 00:26:00 <graingert> well it would just mean the network would split
  86 2011-11-03 00:26:32 <graingert> and people with the locking will be stuck on a chain with no hashpower
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  88 2011-11-03 00:26:54 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|yes, when that happens, you can run a command to unlock your chain and accept the reorg
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  90 2011-11-03 00:27:02 <graingert> sounds nasty
  91 2011-11-03 00:28:47 <genjix> lockins should happen only when the chance of a block not being true is 0
  92 2011-11-03 00:29:00 <genjix> *not not being true
  93 2011-11-03 00:29:01 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: I think it's dangerous— it doesn't really solve the problem: if you put it out far enough that it won't get triggered by accident it will be too far to protect people, nor can it really resolve a dispute about the true chain without introducing central control.
  94 2011-11-03 00:29:04 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|genjix: when is it ever 0?
  95 2011-11-03 00:29:06 <graingert> ie the genisis block
  96 2011-11-03 00:29:18 <genjix> after 10,000 blocks
  97 2011-11-03 00:29:44 <graingert> genjix: your calculations?
  98 2011-11-03 00:29:45 <gmaxwell> at the same time it creates some attack risks, even if they're small.    Though I do think that doing _something_ on deep reorgs is probably good.
  99 2011-11-03 00:29:50 <genjix> each block reduces the chance of splits exponentially
 100 2011-11-03 00:29:58 <graingert> agreed
 101 2011-11-03 00:30:10 <genjix> graingert: the satoshi paper where he models bitcoin blocks using the gamblers risk of ruin
 102 2011-11-03 00:30:23 <graingert> agreed
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 104 2011-11-03 00:30:49 <gmaxwell> graingert: opinions might differ on what a sufficient approximation of zero is.. but it's a lot of blocks, thousands.. but less than several tens of thousands.
 105 2011-11-03 00:31:06 <coblee> 2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|gmaxwell: what if the user is given the option to say don't accept a large reorg without user intervention
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 107 2011-11-03 00:31:40 <genjix> coblee|2: what about merged mining for an alternative client?
 108 2011-11-03 00:31:54 <genjix> why do new currencies need new chains?
 109 2011-11-03 00:32:11 <gmaxwell> coblee|2: some will say yes (hell, I can pay people randomly on each side so people will profit picking some choice), some no, and you'll have two currencies rather than one. :)
 110 2011-11-03 00:32:13 <genjix> maybe you could even fill in the blocks in between using miners
 111 2011-11-03 00:32:19 <genjix> *your own blocks
 112 2011-11-03 00:32:28 <gmaxwell> genjix: because you want botnets to control your currency rather than gpu owners. ;)
 113 2011-11-03 00:32:29 <genjix> therefore the bitcoin blocks become the checkpoints
 114 2011-11-03 00:32:40 <genjix> ahh you're using the new algorithm
 115 2011-11-03 00:32:44 <genjix> i like the litecoin alg
 116 2011-11-03 00:33:17 <gmaxwell> The funny thing was I was whining bitcoin didn't use scrypt six months ago in here.. and art convinced me that using scrypt would be bad.
 117 2011-11-03 00:33:20 <genjix> me and phantom had the idea that bitcoin mining might be better served by an algorithm based on memory instead of cpu
 118 2011-11-03 00:33:34 <gmaxwell> Because we'd rather have the gpu owners than the botnet herders in charge.
 119 2011-11-03 00:33:37 <genjix> i think litecoin does that to some degree
 120 2011-11-03 00:34:00 <genjix> but the thing is memory scales a lot better than gpus do
 121 2011-11-03 00:34:15 <genjix> each stick of memory is roughly the same cost
 122 2011-11-03 00:34:17 <gmaxwell> yes, cost per transitor for memory is cheaper.
 123 2011-11-03 00:34:27 <genjix> and to add more memory, i just buy more sticks
 124 2011-11-03 00:34:42 <genjix> constant growth in cost.
 125 2011-11-03 00:34:54 <gmaxwell> genjix: that linearity is also true for {not yet existing} bitcoin mining asics.
 126 2011-11-03 00:35:17 <genjix> i see
 127 2011-11-03 00:35:28 <genjix> but aren't asics expensive for users?
 128 2011-11-03 00:35:36 <gmaxwell> it just moves the constant factors around so that random desktops don't have such a disadvantage because it uses more of the transistors they already have.
 129 2011-11-03 00:35:47 <genjix> yeah
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 131 2011-11-03 00:36:20 <gmaxwell> genjix: no, they're cheap when made in large scale. You sink a million dollars upfront but the marginal cost per chip can be cents (depending on the packaging) after that.
 132 2011-11-03 00:36:52 <gmaxwell> and of course gpus and cpus and fpgas are all asics too.. just ones not specialized for mining.
 133 2011-11-03 00:37:10 <gmaxwell> (but instead with all kinds of costly design which are irrelevant for mining)
 134 2011-11-03 00:37:39 <graingert> run scrypt and sha256
 135 2011-11-03 00:37:41 <genjix> ohhh very nice
 136 2011-11-03 00:37:44 <graingert> have to get both done
 137 2011-11-03 00:37:53 <graingert> for epic trolltimes
 138 2011-11-03 00:38:40 <gmaxwell> graingert: scrypt is usually combined with a regular hash.
 139 2011-11-03 00:38:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: the 'as' in asic means "application specific", so i doubt fpga's/gpu's/cpu's count as asics :)
 140 2011-11-03 00:38:43 <genjix> gmaxwell: that's pretty cool. i knew it became cheaper, but i didn't know it was *that* cheap
 141 2011-11-03 00:39:18 <genjix> the millions go on plans and manufacturing hardware?
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 143 2011-11-03 00:39:51 <genjix> how much of those millions is involved in the hardware needed to make them?
 144 2011-11-03 00:40:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure they do, their specific application is being a CPU, being a gpu, ... ;) but if we're to play games with words than I'll give up and say that regardless of what you call it, its still the same _physical process_ used to make {bitcoin asic} and {cpu}, the only difference is the bitcoin asic needs a lot less design work but the CPU sells at a much greater scale.
 145 2011-11-03 00:40:16 <genjix> like lets say that somebody stole the blueprints for them and leaked it onto the net- how cheaply could i make an asic?
 146 2011-11-03 00:40:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: agree - the physical process is the same
 147 2011-11-03 00:41:13 <gmaxwell> genjix: "it depends" you really are talking about a million dollarish for just making the mask sets for a modern process (e.g. 45nm) but there are ways to lower that cost a lot by sharing masks with other people.
 148 2011-11-03 00:41:27 <genjix> ok
 149 2011-11-03 00:41:29 <gmaxwell> Which is where companies like http://www.mosis.com/ come in.
 150 2011-11-03 00:42:42 <gmaxwell> Where e.g. 200 parties who want chips pay to a little piece of one mask.. then the mask is reused a bunch of times to make enough of all the chips. (it's a lithographic process— so it's not that far off to think of it as a printing press :) )
 151 2011-11-03 00:43:28 <genjix> i guess the answer to that forum question about how you'd help bitcoin with 10 million dollars, is to flood the bitcoin market with cheap ASICs
 152 2011-11-03 00:43:47 <sipa> i'm not sure mining needs investment
 153 2011-11-03 00:43:56 <sipa> or rather, that it's what bitcoin needs most now
 154 2011-11-03 00:44:40 <genjix> network security comes first. investing in the mining hardware, and software development wouldn't be money badly spent.
 155 2011-11-03 00:45:16 <gmaxwell> I'm really a little surprised at this point that we haven't seen someone do an asic run via mosis or their competition... but I guess no one has funded it for the same reason I haven't: It's risky, if you go cheap on the design your chip may not run. If you don't go cheap, someone who did may arrive on the market at the same time and undersell you.  Plus 22nm GPUs/FPGAs might come out and your 65nm asic may not be attractive enough to recoup
 156 2011-11-03 00:45:43 <gmaxwell> genjix: for security right now I think our bigger problems are user-factors, not hashing.
 157 2011-11-03 00:45:50 <midnightmagic> "[17:30] <genjix> i guess the answer to that forum question about how you'd help bitcoin with 10 million dollars, is to flood the bitcoin market with cheap ASICs" <-- no.
 158 2011-11-03 00:46:26 <midnightmagic> art did an asic run via either mosis or something like it.
 159 2011-11-03 00:46:40 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: art did an SASIC run, which is not the same thing at all.
 160 2011-11-03 00:46:46 <midnightmagic> i see.
 161 2011-11-03 00:46:50 <gmaxwell> SASIC is essential a FPGA in read only mode. :)
 162 2011-11-03 00:47:14 <midnightmagic> course, course. i forgot you are as specific in your word choice as you are.
 163 2011-11-03 00:47:23 <gmaxwell> (technically it's an asic where you only get to set two of the metal layers— replacing the sram in an fpga with fixed wiring)
 164 2011-11-03 00:48:41 <sipa> it does help bringing power usage down though
 165 2011-11-03 00:48:55 <gmaxwell> So it is economically pretty similar to an FPGA, but without the ability to be repurposed and not that exciting... a little cheaper (in quantity), a little faster, a little lower power.
 166 2011-11-03 00:50:00 <gmaxwell> it might make sense if it turned out that some existing sasic base made a pretty good miner, but it doesn't seem to be working that way.
 167 2011-11-03 00:50:18 <gmaxwell> The fill factors people are getting on the S6 fpgas are terrible.
 168 2011-11-03 00:50:53 <gmaxwell> though someone on the forums is hand routing a miner, — that'll be interesting.
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 172 2011-11-03 00:57:44 <luke-jr> so anyhow
 173 2011-11-03 00:57:45 <midnightmagic> hand-routing? like, hand-placing fpga logic?
 174 2011-11-03 00:57:46 <luke-jr> an idea I had
 175 2011-11-03 00:57:47 Detritus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 176 2011-11-03 00:57:49 <luke-jr> for OP_EVAL
 177 2011-11-03 00:58:28 <midnightmagic> is that easy to do without buying a $20k licence from one of the chip designer software makers like Synopsys? (As in, with Webpack for example?)
 178 2011-11-03 00:58:32 <luke-jr> how about allowing signatures to be missing, provided the output contains *at least* the same value as the input with the same pubkey?
 179 2011-11-03 00:59:04 <luke-jr> so for example, if 10 BTC requires KeyA and KeyB to redeem, allow KeyA to sign it over to KeyB entirely without KeyB being involved
 180 2011-11-03 00:59:11 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: setting up all the luts by hand. No you can't do it with webbpack alone.. but you can't program the LX150 with webpack either (too big). You can do it with a trial ISE license though.
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 184 2011-11-03 01:03:04 <midnightmagic> that's weird because the webpack ISE I have installed here appears to allow me to target LX150, or the LX150T..
 185 2011-11-03 01:03:48 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: will it actually route for it?
 186 2011-11-03 01:04:21 <sipa> luke-jr: seems to me that's something you want implemented in a script when it's requested, rather than as a special case
 187 2011-11-03 01:04:22 <midnightmagic> I..  don't know. I haven't gotten that far in the usage tutorial. All the old tools I used in university were.. not ISE. :)
 188 2011-11-03 01:04:40 KArmitt has joined
 189 2011-11-03 01:04:43 <sipa> i know, scripts can't see the outputs of their spending tx
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 195 2011-11-03 01:06:52 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/pics/BFL.jpg
 196 2011-11-03 01:07:05 <luke-jr> sipa: right now, no. but OP_EVAL is new
 197 2011-11-03 01:07:08 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I haven't fooled with it in a while, so I mostly just know what other people said.. last time I used webpack it was on old S3s.
 198 2011-11-03 01:07:31 <genjix> luke-jr: broken link
 199 2011-11-03 01:07:50 <sipa> luke-jr: then i'd rather add the ability for scripts to see the output of their spending tx, rather than hardcode this specific use case
 200 2011-11-03 01:07:53 <luke-jr> try again
 201 2011-11-03 01:09:45 <genjix> is this to do with OP_EVAL?
 202 2011-11-03 01:09:52 <genjix> or am i missing something with this pic
 203 2011-11-03 01:10:00 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: The version I have here is.. hrm.. 13.1, lin64, Application Version O.40d. When choosing project->design properties, I can choose Family: Spartan6, and then device XC6SLX150 or -T. I can choose some of the Virtex models too.
 204 2011-11-03 01:10:00 <luke-jr> genjix: 1 GH/s at 20 W
 205 2011-11-03 01:10:10 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: still think it's a scam?
 206 2011-11-03 01:10:12 <genjix> aha ok
 207 2011-11-03 01:10:23 <gmaxwell> maybe! I don't know. I hope it is real.
 208 2011-11-03 01:11:10 <midnightmagic> what's that supposed to be?
 209 2011-11-03 01:11:13 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: sounds like you can only install signed+encrypted firmwares tho :/
 210 2011-11-03 01:11:26 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: wha? why would they do that?
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 212 2011-11-03 01:11:42 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: http://butterflylabs.com/product-details/
 213 2011-11-03 01:11:51 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: presumably to prevent reverse engineering
 214 2011-11-03 01:12:29 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: in any case, the person who runs eclipsemc apparently works right across the street from them. get him to go benchmark it if they actually have it running.
 215 2011-11-03 01:12:50 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I have no reason to trust him more than them :P
 216 2011-11-03 01:13:18 <gmaxwell> More likely for one person to lie than two. :)
 217 2011-11-03 01:13:47 <luke-jr> a week ago, it was at "device driver work and final software refinement"
 218 2011-11-03 01:13:50 <midnightmagic> real helpful. no details about it at all. perhaps these are the people art sold his fpga design to.
 219 2011-11-03 01:14:01 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: oh, he did?
 220 2011-11-03 01:14:10 <sipa> art's fpga did 200MH/s
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 222 2011-11-03 01:14:17 <gmaxwell> You'd think butterfly would be super eager to prove themselves, since there are a lot of people who'd place order if they believed it.
 223 2011-11-03 01:14:21 <luke-jr> sipa: presumably they'd have improved on it since then :p
 224 2011-11-03 01:14:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I think I'm a beta tester for them ;)
 225 2011-11-03 01:14:39 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: they didn't want to be public yet
 226 2011-11-03 01:14:49 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: so I heard.
 227 2011-11-03 01:15:15 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I'm starting to think mining-specific hardware is a bad idea.
 228 2011-11-03 01:15:47 <sipa> why?
 229 2011-11-03 01:15:48 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it's not preventable if bitcoin becomes popular (hell, if it just stays as it is!)
 230 2011-11-03 01:16:56 <gmaxwell> plus attackers could be counted on to use it eventually (some potential attackers have access to fabs, e.g. any state level attacker— people at some universities with VLSI departments so without it bitcoin would always be very vulnerable to those attackers)
 231 2011-11-03 01:16:59 <midnightmagic> it would suck if I sunk a whole pile of money into some specific hardware that could only do btc-specific sha256 hashing, and suddenly mrb_'s weird double-speed algorithm went out to the public. now everyone else is almost as efficient.
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 233 2011-11-03 01:18:10 <gmaxwell> well, on true mining specific hardware you'd have more than a 2x gain. (heck on a work per watt hour, the _FPGAs_ are 7x more efficient than gpus, and they're power pigs!)
 234 2011-11-03 01:18:18 <midnightmagic> or, with this, if only signed firmwares could be uploaded, now butterfly decides they don't like what you're doing to their hardware, and they refuse to release an updated firmware. or the chip they used is slightly too small to efficiently mine with whatever new mining algo goes into the bitcoind core.
 235 2011-11-03 01:18:58 * luke-jr thinks changing the algo is a bad idea
 236 2011-11-03 01:19:15 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: same can be true with anything. if you're going to assume changing the algo (Why?! how?! I call bs!) then any hardware could be written out of it.
 237 2011-11-03 01:19:23 <gmaxwell> (at least written out in terms of efficient execution)
 238 2011-11-03 01:19:44 <midnightmagic> say a sha256 collision is found by someone. now what?
 239 2011-11-03 01:19:52 <gmaxwell> so?
 240 2011-11-03 01:20:01 <genjix> life goes on
 241 2011-11-03 01:20:16 <midnightmagic> the point is, with fpga or other general-purpose, there is .. another purpose.
 242 2011-11-03 01:20:28 <gmaxwell> absolutely, thats the risk you take.
 243 2011-11-03 01:20:32 <gmaxwell> Factor that into the price.
 244 2011-11-03 01:20:50 <gmaxwell> Fortunately a real dedicated piece of hardware could absolutely smoke the more general stuff.
 245 2011-11-03 01:21:07 <midnightmagic> exactly. so mining-specific better be cheap, and I don't see $500-per-GH as cheap with the 7xxx series on the horizon.
 246 2011-11-03 01:21:30 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: wrong metric.
 247 2011-11-03 01:21:37 <luke-jr> it's per-watt that matters
 248 2011-11-03 01:21:42 <gmaxwell> $500 per gh is not cheap. It's the $ per watt which matters.
 249 2011-11-03 01:21:51 <luke-jr> if everyone's barely breaking even with GPUs, I'll be able to make a nice profit ;)
 250 2011-11-03 01:21:55 <gmaxwell> Thats just cheap enough to make it a complete no brainer.
 251 2011-11-03 01:22:06 <luke-jr> by the time I don't make a profit, GPUs will have died out like CPUs
 252 2011-11-03 01:22:35 <luke-jr> I can mine down to like $0.10/BTC with this
 253 2011-11-03 01:22:55 <genjix> why do they sell them?
 254 2011-11-03 01:23:19 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: see the figures here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49180.msg587822#msg587822
 255 2011-11-03 01:23:41 <lfm> depends if you have free power too
 256 2011-11-03 01:23:48 <gmaxwell> genjix: hunters vs farmers— also, why did the guys with mining hardware sell it during the gold rush  (they made more money than the miners!)
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 258 2011-11-03 01:24:07 <genjix> haha ok
 259 2011-11-03 01:24:08 <gmaxwell> lfm: ~almost one has non-trivial amounts of free power.
 260 2011-11-03 01:24:27 <luke-jr> I expect they're planning to sell a bunch at $600 when they know it works
 261 2011-11-03 01:24:40 <luke-jr> and sit back as the difficulty soars
 262 2011-11-03 01:24:48 <lfm> gmaxwell: ya but lots of people have trivial amounts of free power
 263 2011-11-03 01:24:52 <luke-jr> I'm hoping to break even by being an early adopter
 264 2011-11-03 01:25:00 <gmaxwell> lfm: its true.
 265 2011-11-03 01:25:14 * luke-jr just had solar panels installed here
 266 2011-11-03 01:25:24 <luke-jr> yay for State-subsidized solar panels!
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 268 2011-11-03 01:25:49 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I don't think that board gives you the kind of launch youd need for that. But at least you won't be left cold when a 15gh/s asic for $100 comes out.
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 270 2011-11-03 01:26:43 <midnightmagic> 60 days per block, or 0.835 btc per day, at current prices, is $2 per day per unit, assume free electricity and no change in difficulty. 186 days to pay itself off.. and after that, profit hopefully..
 271 2011-11-03 01:27:00 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 1000000
 272 2011-11-03 01:27:01 <lfm> gmaxwell: there will always be something better coming out real soon now
 273 2011-11-03 01:27:01 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1203461.92638 , is 0.835779145594 BTC per day and 0.0348241310664 BTC per hour.
 274 2011-11-03 01:27:35 <gmaxwell> lfm: well, there is diminishing better once you're unable to improve faster than the underlying silicon process.
 275 2011-11-03 01:27:40 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: well, it works for me with GPU
 276 2011-11-03 01:27:59 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: that's figures for fpga and gpu. I like fpga, I think that's going to be a fun time when i pick some up in.. I guess another month.
 277 2011-11-03 01:28:05 <luke-jr> my Radeon 5850 paid for itself in under a month
 278 2011-11-03 01:28:25 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I was just pointing to it for a point about why power is so important.
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 280 2011-11-03 01:28:32 <midnightmagic> all my 5970 paid for themselves in under a month too. that doesn't mean they could do that now.
 281 2011-11-03 01:28:37 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: ah, yes, I agree.
 282 2011-11-03 01:28:49 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: these things are to GPUs, what GPUs were to CPUs back then
 283 2011-11-03 01:29:13 <lfm> GPUs wont stand still either
 284 2011-11-03 01:29:16 <midnightmagic> only if you buy them in equivalent volume. otherwise it's just a few pennies versus a few more pennies.
 285 2011-11-03 01:29:26 <gmaxwell> There isn't an installed base of these that can be picked up suddenly to crank the difficulty. :)
 286 2011-11-03 01:29:57 <gmaxwell> lfm: yes, but they're always going to be handicapped by being gpus rather than being miners.. lots of useless gates on that card.
 287 2011-11-03 01:30:08 <luke-jr> lfm: GPUs are going backward
 288 2011-11-03 01:30:25 <luke-jr> 6xxx are less efficient than 5xxx for mining
 289 2011-11-03 01:30:27 <luke-jr> etc
 290 2011-11-03 01:30:37 <gmaxwell> of course, they're flexible, but where is the bitcoin miner program that can run password cracking kernels when its more profitable to do so? people aren't bothering to make use of that flexibility.
 291 2011-11-03 01:32:14 <midnightmagic> yeah, flexibility is under-utilized.
 292 2011-11-03 01:33:03 <midnightmagic> anyway, same old argument, same old impossible-to-knows without seeing the future. and nobody can see the future but the people who can manipulate the prices or supply of hardware.
 293 2011-11-03 01:33:23 <midnightmagic> or the people who keep special high-performance algos to themselves..
 294 2011-11-03 01:33:44 <gmaxwell> I suggested to ztex (maker of the nicest FPGA board) that he should offer code for e.g. des cracking (which is also quite nice on FPGAs) so that people would feel more comfortable buying them knowing they can be reused if bitcoin goes bust, but he was concerned about them being used for evil. "But I will not implement ready-to-use solutions for this due to moral reasons (could help governments to tyrannize their people)"
 295 2011-11-03 01:34:05 <midnightmagic> yikes
 296 2011-11-03 01:34:17 <midnightmagic> he doesn't sign or encrypt his firmwares does he?
 297 2011-11-03 01:34:38 <midnightmagic> all you need is to feed the onboard microprocessor the new firmware?
 298 2011-11-03 01:35:01 <gmaxwell> well, the xilinx images are always encrypted though the encryption has been cracked. I dunno if he distributes his own sources, but all his products are intended for people to load their own fpga code.
 299 2011-11-03 01:36:33 <gmaxwell> I wonder if he's crazy (After all, who can afford enough FPGAs to cause trouble but can't afford to write code for them??) or if he's just really good at pandering to his audience (wouldn't sound good on bitcointalk to say you don't want to give kiddies cracking code)
 300 2011-11-03 01:37:20 <lfm> gmaxwell: some people prefer to buy open solutions
 301 2011-11-03 01:37:54 <midnightmagic> whoah: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/08/breaking_the_xi.html
 302 2011-11-03 01:38:38 <midnightmagic> but regardless of the xilinx images that are encrypted, you can just load your own stuff on his hardware trivially right?
 303 2011-11-03 01:38:44 <gmaxwell> lfm: open has degrees. :)
 304 2011-11-03 01:38:59 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: sure, if you have the xilinx software.
 305 2011-11-03 01:39:35 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: his business is much bigger than selling to bitcoin miners.
 306 2011-11-03 01:39:58 <gmaxwell> http://www.ztex.de/
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 309 2011-11-03 01:42:12 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r6601537 / (4 files in 3 dirs): Split Transaction class and TransactionSchema into separate files. - http://git.io/nxe_EA
 310 2011-11-03 01:42:12 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * raf79dc9 / lib/util.js : Added some more null constants. - http://git.io/fseEUw
 311 2011-11-03 01:42:13 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r81a498b / lib/script.js : Optimization: Only update buffer if findAndDelete did something. - http://git.io/gisHFQ
 312 2011-11-03 01:42:13 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rc0a4ef0 / (5 files in 2 dirs): Optimization: Use global constant for empty buffers. - http://git.io/Ey72gA
 313 2011-11-03 01:42:13 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r4565cde / (benchmark/common.js benchmark/splice.js): Added a benchmark toolkit. - http://git.io/Mcm-vg
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 322 2011-11-03 01:47:49 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: thanks for the pointers again, sometimes it's hard to keep up
 323 2011-11-03 01:47:56 oww has joined
 324 2011-11-03 01:48:14 <gmaxwell> If you're looking at fpgas, also: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40058.0
 325 2011-11-03 01:49:02 <gmaxwell> it's slightly vaporware at the moment, but the prior version was completely legit so I'm sure this one will be too, but for mining it will be a bit less costly than ztex's very nice solution.
 326 2011-11-03 01:50:28 <midnightmagic> neat stuff..
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 328 2011-11-03 01:51:35 <Diablo-D3> meh
 329 2011-11-03 01:51:37 <Diablo-D3> not that again
 330 2011-11-03 01:52:15 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: also this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44891.0
 331 2011-11-03 01:52:15 <midnightmagic> what?
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 345 2011-11-03 02:09:14 <imsaguy> and then there is this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50710.0
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 502 2011-11-03 05:07:25 <skittixch> Hey, can anyone clarify if mtgox charges fees on both buys and sells?
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 507 2011-11-03 05:15:15 <cjdelisle> AFAIK the answer is yes.
 508 2011-11-03 05:15:33 <skittixch> cool, that's what I was thinking
 509 2011-11-03 05:15:45 <skittixch> I think if your transaction is very small, it doesn't take a fee though
 510 2011-11-03 05:16:07 <skittixch> I had a few that were a few cents that rounded off some previous transactions, and they didn't have fees
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 523 2011-11-03 05:37:49 zhoutong has joined
 524 2011-11-03 05:39:43 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 525 2011-11-03 05:39:50 <copumpkin> can someone please get rid of zhoutong?
 526 2011-11-03 05:39:58 zhoutong has joined
 527 2011-11-03 05:39:59 <copumpkin> this entire channel log is him joining and parting
 528 2011-11-03 05:40:03 <copumpkin> and has been for weeks
 529 2011-11-03 05:40:04 <copumpkin> :P
 530 2011-11-03 05:40:16 <copumpkin> zhoutong: nice connection
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 541 2011-11-03 05:52:04 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, UukGoblin nameless| nathan7 please ban zhoutong he join/parts constantly and never talks ever
 542 2011-11-03 05:52:08 <phantomcircuit> it's annoying as fuck
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 614 2011-11-03 07:23:43 zhoutong has joined
 615 2011-11-03 07:24:19 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * rde17288d5999 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Adjust HTTP timeouts
 616 2011-11-03 07:24:20 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * rc8db0c300f39 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Use TCP_NODELAY
 617 2011-11-03 07:24:26 t3a has joined
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 620 2011-11-03 07:26:36 zhoutong has joined
 621 2011-11-03 07:26:39 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r0df68ec / lib/schema/transaction.js : Optimization: Direct hashForSignature(), no longer copies tx first. - http://git.io/oQ95sw
 622 2011-11-03 07:26:39 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r38f0abc / (8 files): s/sys/util/g - http://git.io/GRpoYA
 623 2011-11-03 07:26:40 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r2520a8d / (3 files in 3 dirs): Optimization: Don't instantiate database objects until they're needed. - http://git.io/WzyRhg
 624 2011-11-03 07:26:40 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r5684d80 / benchmark/partbufcache.js : New benchmark: Whether or not to cache outpoint partials. - http://git.io/oQjP0A
 625 2011-11-03 07:26:40 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r9af4b62 / lib/schema/transaction.js : Optimization: Cache outpoint hash. - http://git.io/LRD72Q
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 642 2011-11-03 07:43:58 zhoutong has joined
 643 2011-11-03 07:44:12 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * r11f4954675f7 Phoenix-Miner/ (Miner.py minerutil/RPCProtocol.py): Have the connection close upon Phoenix shutdown...
 644 2011-11-03 07:44:13 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * r085b630f641c Phoenix-Miner/ (16 files in 5 dirs): Remove spaces from empty lines
 645 2011-11-03 07:45:41 shadders has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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 652 2011-11-03 07:50:36 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rdf8c7a4 / (4 files in 2 dirs): Optimization: Added improved receive buffer. - http://git.io/1AVTRQ
 653 2011-11-03 07:50:36 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r8a34a66 / lib/schema/transaction.js : Optimization: isCoinbase() - strict comparison is faster. - http://git.io/8VThqA
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 678 2011-11-03 08:18:14 zhoutong has joined
 679 2011-11-03 08:19:29 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|phantomcircuit: ignore it?
 680 2011-11-03 08:19:50 <phantomcircuit> nameless|, he's filling up my freaking logs
 681 2011-11-03 08:20:17 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|phantomcircuit: /ignore it?
 682 2011-11-03 08:20:30 <phantomcircuit> using bouncer
 683 2011-11-03 08:20:32 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|in irssi I can /ignore zhoutong JOIN PART QUIT CRAP
 684 2011-11-03 08:20:36 <phantomcircuit> would still fill my logs
 685 2011-11-03 08:21:14 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|shouldn't
 686 2011-11-03 08:21:18 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|it doesn't in irssi
 687 2011-11-03 08:21:26 <phantomcircuit> bouncer doesn't work like that
 688 2011-11-03 08:21:32 <phantomcircuit> bouncer stores the logs
 689 2011-11-03 08:21:39 <phantomcircuit> i'd have to setup ignore on the bouncer
 690 2011-11-03 08:23:40 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 691 2011-11-03 08:24:46 zhoutong has joined
 692 2011-11-03 08:26:05 <cjdelisle> -!- zhoutong [~zhoutong@111.221.80.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
 693 2011-11-03 08:26:09 <cjdelisle> -!- zhoutong [~zhoutong@111.221.80.132] has joined #bitcoin-dev
 694 2011-11-03 08:30:24 <gjs278> # grep zhoutong *|wc -l
 695 2011-11-03 08:30:25 <gjs278> 11342
 696 2011-11-03 08:30:27 <gjs278> holy fuck
 697 2011-11-03 08:33:32 erus` has joined
 698 2011-11-03 08:33:32 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 699 2011-11-03 08:34:03 zhoutong has joined
 700 2011-11-03 08:34:07 <invisiblemonk> um...
 701 2011-11-03 08:35:28 <gjs278> it doesn't work
 702 2011-11-03 08:35:33 <gjs278> he penetrates my client ignore
 703 2011-11-03 08:35:46 <gjs278> I also don't think he has said anything
 704 2011-11-03 08:35:47 <gjs278> ever
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 712 2011-11-03 08:56:37 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 713 2011-11-03 09:01:03 <erus`> just turn conference mode on in your client nameless|
 714 2011-11-03 09:01:10 <erus`> thn you dont see joins and parts
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 729 2011-11-03 09:43:03 cenuij has joined
 730 2011-11-03 09:43:32 <lfm> [6~[6~[6~[6~
 731 2011-11-03 09:43:34 MartianW has joined
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 733 2011-11-03 09:55:23 niekie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 735 2011-11-03 10:10:34 <lfm> [5~
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 739 2011-11-03 10:19:18 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * re22aadea851e Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Lock the HTTP thread
 740 2011-11-03 10:21:44 cande has joined
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 743 2011-11-03 10:29:12 <CIA-34> bitcoin: jedi95 * r1385f7d35667 Phoenix-Miner/.gitignore: Added .elf to .gitignore
 744 2011-11-03 10:30:24 wasabi1 has joined
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 749 2011-11-03 10:45:01 <Diablo-D3> man
 750 2011-11-03 10:45:05 <Diablo-D3> I love how people join
 751 2011-11-03 10:45:07 <Diablo-D3> msg me
 752 2011-11-03 10:45:08 <Diablo-D3> and leave
 753 2011-11-03 10:45:14 jackmcbarn has joined
 754 2011-11-03 10:47:21 <batouzo> Diablo-D3: hey bro I have 50 BTC donation if you want one, but we have to decide on it in next 10 minutes or so, please
 755 2011-11-03 10:47:26 batouzo has quit (Quit: trolo)
 756 2011-11-03 10:48:00 <MartianW> Diablo-D3, impatient.
 757 2011-11-03 10:49:49 <Diablo-D3> ...
 758 2011-11-03 10:49:52 <Diablo-D3> SEE WHAT I MEAN
 759 2011-11-03 10:50:01 jackmcbarn has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 760 2011-11-03 10:52:08 KenArmitt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 761 2011-11-03 10:53:34 KenArmitt has joined
 762 2011-11-03 10:57:47 <cjdelisle> haha
 763 2011-11-03 10:58:07 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 766 2011-11-03 10:59:10 <CIA-34> bitcoin: jedi95 * r92c32fadae99 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Added SO_KEEPALIVE to socket options for RPC.
 767 2011-11-03 10:59:35 wolfspraul has joined
 768 2011-11-03 10:59:37 <MartianW> Oh, the bit is adding commits.
 769 2011-11-03 10:59:48 <MartianW> *bot is showing commits.
 770 2011-11-03 10:59:59 da2ce7 has joined
 771 2011-11-03 11:00:00 <MartianW> That took me far too long to realize.
 772 2011-11-03 11:00:07 <MartianW> That is a nice feature.
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 784 2011-11-03 11:24:10 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * rfe36698ca6d0 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Remove typo yield
 785 2011-11-03 11:24:16 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * r3be3e9935775 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Remove extra space
 786 2011-11-03 11:24:19 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * r8d89717715ed Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Support https connections
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 796 2011-11-03 11:33:22 <UukGoblin> interesting
 797 2011-11-03 11:33:30 <UukGoblin> every time I try to get a ticker from mtgox
 798 2011-11-03 11:33:32 <UukGoblin> at first I get
 799 2011-11-03 11:33:37 <UukGoblin> curl: (35) Unknown SSL protocol error in connection to mtgox.com:443
 800 2011-11-03 11:33:48 <UukGoblin> and then the next attempt shortly after works fine
 801 2011-11-03 11:34:12 <UukGoblin> guess it's some kind of smart gray-listing for ddos protection
 802 2011-11-03 11:34:22 RazielZ has joined
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 804 2011-11-03 11:39:22 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * rbf3ebecdb890 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: RPCProtocol should catch timeouts too
 805 2011-11-03 11:42:19 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 809 2011-11-03 11:59:11 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * ra949a20a6ce4 Phoenix-Miner/phoenix.py: Make phoenix.py executable by default
 810 2011-11-03 12:21:51 <UukGoblin> ;;help bc,diff
 811 2011-11-03 12:21:51 <gribble> (bc,diff <an alias, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "web fetch http://blockexplorer.com/q/getdifficulty".
 812 2011-11-03 12:22:41 <lfm> kinda roundabout way of doing it it seems
 813 2011-11-03 12:24:42 <UukGoblin> and why the hell doesn't google calculator API return valid json
 814 2011-11-03 12:25:32 <lfm> hehe, how would they be able to feed you the adds then?
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 816 2011-11-03 12:28:08 <invisiblemonk> fuck aws.
 817 2011-11-03 12:28:52 <lfm> invisiblemonk: <- I see you (whats aws?)
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 820 2011-11-03 12:34:13 <SomeoneWeird> Anyone here used BitcoinSharp?
 821 2011-11-03 12:35:14 <lfm> I havnt, what is i
 822 2011-11-03 12:35:17 <lfm> it?
 823 2011-11-03 12:35:25 <SomeoneWeird> C# bitcoin library
 824 2011-11-03 12:35:48 <lfm> oh just a lib, not a complete app
 825 2011-11-03 12:35:56 <SomeoneWeird> mhm
 826 2011-11-03 12:36:00 <kinlo> a library should be enough :)
 827 2011-11-03 12:36:09 <SomeoneWeird> can't figure out how to get it working though haha
 828 2011-11-03 12:36:12 <kinlo> but why do people use .net
 829 2011-11-03 12:36:21 <kinlo> that's for me the confusing part :)
 830 2011-11-03 12:36:22 <lfm> well some libs are not exactly complete
 831 2011-11-03 12:38:51 <SomeoneWeird> its pretty complete if you look at it lfm
 832 2011-11-03 12:39:01 <SomeoneWeird> i do kinlo :P
 833 2011-11-03 12:39:10 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * r977f08547d91 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Intercept HTTP requests to close them directly as well.
 834 2011-11-03 12:39:12 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * r429e0f145d34 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Shut down socket when closing connections.
 835 2011-11-03 12:39:14 <lfm> whats kinlo?
 836 2011-11-03 12:39:24 <kinlo> I think he was just replying to me
 837 2011-11-03 12:39:31 <kinlo> :)
 838 2011-11-03 12:39:39 <lfm> oh ok
 839 2011-11-03 12:40:10 <kinlo> perhaps a comma would have been in place, you might even read that the wrong way :p
 840 2011-11-03 12:40:27 <lfm> not much point me looking at it tho cuz I have not inclination to learn C# or .net
 841 2011-11-03 12:41:00 <kinlo> well, imho it would be better to write a wrapper and to extend bitcoins rpc functionality then just dumb-rewriting the code
 842 2011-11-03 12:41:16 <kinlo> it is already in a far superiour language, why rewrite it ? :)
 843 2011-11-03 12:42:14 <lfm> my reasons for not wanting to learn C# have noting to do with its suitability for any particular purpose, I just dont trust microssoft
 844 2011-11-03 12:43:00 <SomeoneWeird> i do mono stuff too
 845 2011-11-03 12:43:13 <kinlo> my reasons is because microsoft has so many customers, so many users, but no measurable community
 846 2011-11-03 12:43:20 <SomeoneWeird> kinlo, bitcoinsharp has alot of stuff, wallet reading/writing, blockchain searching etc.etc.
 847 2011-11-03 12:43:29 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 848 2011-11-03 12:43:39 <kinlo> SomeoneWeird: stuff which should be done via rpc calls imho
 849 2011-11-03 12:43:49 <batouzo> why not use C++
 850 2011-11-03 12:43:57 <SomeoneWeird> well it can be full on stand alone kinlo
 851 2011-11-03 12:44:01 <SomeoneWeird> not have to rely on the client
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 853 2011-11-03 12:44:23 <SomeoneWeird> batouzo, because i dont know C++
 854 2011-11-03 12:44:31 <SomeoneWeird> dont plan on learning it either.
 855 2011-11-03 12:45:19 <kinlo> why not?:)
 856 2011-11-03 12:45:24 <kinlo> c++ is a cool language
 857 2011-11-03 12:45:29 <kinlo> very difficult, but cool
 858 2011-11-03 12:45:52 <cjdelisle> The world is written in C++
 859 2011-11-03 12:45:52 <SomeoneWeird> my point exactly
 860 2011-11-03 12:45:57 <SomeoneWeird> too busy at the moment
 861 2011-11-03 12:46:00 <SomeoneWeird> -.- cjdelisle
 862 2011-11-03 12:46:15 <batouzo> C# is like C++ but microsoftied
 863 2011-11-03 12:46:23 <lfm> I dont think c++ would be primarily charcterized as "cool".
 864 2011-11-03 12:46:27 <batouzo> and "easier". Such as visual basic is "easy"
 865 2011-11-03 12:46:35 <SomeoneWeird> visual basic sucks lol
 866 2011-11-03 12:46:37 <Ycros> batouzo: not at all, C# is more like java
 867 2011-11-03 12:46:42 <SomeoneWeird> ^
 868 2011-11-03 12:46:46 <Ycros> batouzo: managed C++ is microsoftied C++
 869 2011-11-03 12:46:56 <batouzo> yeah something in between
 870 2011-11-03 12:47:14 <batouzo> my friends learns visual basic 6 at uni.
 871 2011-11-03 12:47:24 <lfm> well ya C# is ms's anser to java for people who dont want to learn java
 872 2011-11-03 12:47:27 <batouzo> I think she was trolled by her uni.
 873 2011-11-03 12:47:37 <cjdelisle> ouch
 874 2011-11-03 12:47:54 <SomeoneWeird> damn
 875 2011-11-03 12:47:56 <cjdelisle> c# is vbasic with squigley brackets
 876 2011-11-03 12:47:56 <batouzo> vb6 was deprecated old shit 10 years ago
 877 2011-11-03 12:48:13 <SomeoneWeird> ok guys stop the language war.
 878 2011-11-03 12:48:15 <SomeoneWeird> -.-
 879 2011-11-03 12:48:22 <batouzo> I think [Turbo] Pascal even is better
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 881 2011-11-03 12:48:46 <lfm> batouzo: well duh! Pascal is perfect.
 882 2011-11-03 12:48:55 <batouzo> :}
 883 2011-11-03 12:48:55 <SomeoneWeird> lawl
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 887 2011-11-03 12:51:13 <kinlo> pascal is indeed a good language
 888 2011-11-03 12:51:31 <kinlo> and anyone comparing c# with C++ has no clue, they are fundamentally different
 889 2011-11-03 12:51:59 <cjdelisle> c# is from the java strand of trying to save the programmer from himself
 890 2011-11-03 12:52:04 <lfm> well there wouldnt be much point in comparing them if they were identical.
 891 2011-11-03 12:52:23 <cjdelisle> but the folly in sun's logic was to assume that they wouldn't make a better idiot
 892 2011-11-03 12:53:11 <SomeoneWeird> im not comparing them kinlo
 893 2011-11-03 12:53:26 <kinlo> you werent indeed
 894 2011-11-03 12:53:36 <da2ce7> cjdelisle, C# and VB are very similar, just differnt sintax... However new features get added to C# first.
 895 2011-11-03 12:53:39 <batouzo> kinlo: I said it was microsoftized.  Same as windows is fundamentally different to real OS
 896 2011-11-03 12:53:44 <SomeoneWeird> mhm
 897 2011-11-03 12:53:44 <da2ce7> *syntax
 898 2011-11-03 12:54:04 <batouzo> wait, we should be working
 899 2011-11-03 12:54:11 * batouzo poof
 900 2011-11-03 12:54:11 <kinlo> anyway
 901 2011-11-03 12:54:13 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * r216323cfff48 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Shouldn't try to shutdown the RPC socket if it doesn't exist
 902 2011-11-03 12:54:21 <kinlo> anyone ever worked with google go?
 903 2011-11-03 12:54:31 <lfm> da2ce7: no I think you were right the first time, C# has the ms sintax
 904 2011-11-03 12:55:07 <da2ce7> lfm, ofcoures, it was made by MS.
 905 2011-11-03 12:55:16 <SomeoneWeird> mhm
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 928 2011-11-03 13:54:12 <CIA-34> bitcoin: jedi95 * r9fb667c07c7f Phoenix-Miner/kernels/phatk2/__init__.py: Removed time.clock import from phatk2 (not used)
 929 2011-11-03 13:54:13 <CIA-34> bitcoin: jedi95 * re04cdb19305b Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:jedi95/Phoenix-Miner
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 940 2011-11-03 14:14:15 <CIA-34> bitcoin: jedi95 * r83ec5e1bef87 Phoenix-Miner/kernels/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Remove ATI-only restriction on phatk/phatk2 as these no longer give errors on Nvidia hardware.
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 950 2011-11-03 14:23:56 <graingert> :D
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 954 2011-11-03 14:34:18 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r38d18d646c0b / (Makefile examples/subvertx/mktx.cpp): Accept [HOST[:PORT]] for mktx.
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 969 2011-11-03 15:02:33 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * f11b17698972 r183 / (15 files in 8 dirs): Some optimisazion, removal of debug code and tidy of workmaker threading to take advantage of multiple cores. Improved work output by about 300%.
 970 2011-11-03 15:04:20 <CIA-34> bitcoin: CFSworks * ra4475dde8752 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/RPCProtocol.py: Correctly close the RPC HTTP connection socket
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 984 2011-11-03 15:23:34 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r434a483 / (doc/build-msw.txt doc/release-process.txt): Update documentation to reflect 0.5 reality. And removed leading $ from shell commands, so it is easier to copy and paste from release-process.txt. - http://git.io/mr2XbA
 985 2011-11-03 15:23:36 <CIA-34> bitcoin: p2k master * r6eaa1b3 / (6 files in 2 dirs):
 986 2011-11-03 15:23:36 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Mac Deployment Script
 987 2011-11-03 15:23:36 <CIA-34> bitcoin: See notes.txt in contrib/macdeploy.
 988 2011-11-03 15:23:36 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Also added a dash to the application name in src/qt/bitcoin.cpp - http://git.io/QRISxQ
 989 2011-11-03 15:23:36 <CIA-34> bitcoin: p2k master * ra8fe4b7 / contrib/macdeploy/LICENSE : Added a copy of the GPLv3 to macdeployqtplus - http://git.io/Sg7O7A
 990 2011-11-03 15:23:36 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r8c69b66 / (7 files in 2 dirs): Merge git://github.com/p2k/bitcoin-qt - http://git.io/Wly79Q
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1022 2011-11-03 16:41:32 <d33tah> hi guys
1023 2011-11-03 16:41:42 <d33tah> i've got an evil idea i'd like to discuss with you
1024 2011-11-03 16:42:07 <d33tah> first, is it true that bitcoin miners calculate pure SHA hashes all the time?
1025 2011-11-03 16:42:18 <da2ce7> d33tah
1026 2011-11-03 16:42:24 <da2ce7> welcome, what do you want to decuss?
1027 2011-11-03 16:42:43 <da2ce7> d33tah, they calcualte doubble sha256
1028 2011-11-03 16:42:45 <d33tah> well, i thought of an idea that could make mining more profitable
1029 2011-11-03 16:42:51 <luke-jr> d33tah: no
1030 2011-11-03 16:43:11 <d33tah> so, these are hashes of hashes...
1031 2011-11-03 16:43:22 <luke-jr> they do a double-sha256, and only of a specific fixed-length input
1032 2011-11-03 16:43:25 <cocktopus> its something liek sha256(sha256()) right
1033 2011-11-03 16:43:42 <da2ce7> *well technicaly it isn't sha256, as the miners can get away with skiping a few rounds.
1034 2011-11-03 16:43:45 <d33tah> but the first run of the hasing, is it exactly the same as php's sha256?
1035 2011-11-03 16:44:19 <roconnor> skiping a few rounds?
1036 2011-11-03 16:44:22 <d33tah> could the data from the first hashing be used as legit sha256?
1037 2011-11-03 16:44:36 <da2ce7> sure, the last few rounds of the 2nd hash is not needed.
1038 2011-11-03 16:44:48 <da2ce7> as it only effects the higher numbers.
1039 2011-11-03 16:45:26 <luke-jr> da2ce7: no, you can't skip anymore
1040 2011-11-03 16:45:40 <roconnor> da2ce7: and those higher numbers correspond to the lower bits when comparing with the target.
1041 2011-11-03 16:45:51 <d33tah> does anybody know the answer to this question? are the hashes calculated legit sha256 hashes?
1042 2011-11-03 16:45:53 <da2ce7> luke-jr, why not?
1043 2011-11-03 16:45:59 <luke-jr> d33tah: no, they're double
1044 2011-11-03 16:45:59 <roconnor> da2ce7: interesting
1045 2011-11-03 16:46:12 <d33tah> luke-jr: let's say we interrupt after the first pass. would it?
1046 2011-11-03 16:46:14 <luke-jr> da2ce7: as roconnor said, the bits you need to be 0 are last, and midstate is not part of work anymore
1047 2011-11-03 16:46:19 <luke-jr> d33tah: yes
1048 2011-11-03 16:46:22 <d33tah> okay
1049 2011-11-03 16:46:38 <da2ce7> ok
1050 2011-11-03 16:46:58 <roconnor> luke-jr: midstate?
1051 2011-11-03 16:47:16 <luke-jr> roconnor: midstate = first part of first round of sha256 which is the same regardless of nonce
1052 2011-11-03 16:47:53 <roconnor> luke-jr: has the definition of work changed?
1053 2011-11-03 16:48:01 <d33tah> so, now suppose we introduce a new kind of transaction - one side withdraws some amount of its money as "bounty" assigned to a specific hash, the other side checks his first passes everytime if it's not something we're looking for - if it is, we announce to the network what data collides with the hash and then claim the bounty. if hash isn't cracked in the specific time, the money returns to its original owner
1054 2011-11-03 16:48:07 <d33tah> is it possible?
1055 2011-11-03 16:48:07 <luke-jr> roconnor: getwork JSON-RPC used to provide midstate
1056 2011-11-03 16:48:13 <luke-jr> roconnor: now you need to do that yourself in the miner
1057 2011-11-03 16:48:50 <luke-jr> d33tah: no, there's no support for time-based transactions
1058 2011-11-03 16:48:59 <luke-jr> d33tah: furthermore, you would "never" find such a collision
1059 2011-11-03 16:49:12 <sipa> d33tah: and a miner who sees such a claim transaction will just change it to one that sends it to himself
1060 2011-11-03 16:49:40 <d33tah> sipa: right, anything wrong in that?
1061 2011-11-03 16:49:55 <sipa> eh
1062 2011-11-03 16:50:00 <sipa> it makes it worthless
1063 2011-11-03 16:50:00 <d33tah> i mean, not the one that sees - the one that receives
1064 2011-11-03 16:50:08 <d33tah> it'd be like "first to claim"
1065 2011-11-03 16:50:12 zeiris is now known as amtal
1066 2011-11-03 16:50:15 <luke-jr> d33tah: there is no first to claim
1067 2011-11-03 16:50:26 <d33tah> why not?
1068 2011-11-03 16:50:28 <sipa> i managed to find a collision, i create a transaction that claims the bounty, and sends it to me
1069 2011-11-03 16:50:33 <sipa> i broadcast that transaction
1070 2011-11-03 16:50:48 <graingert> once it's in a block
1071 2011-11-03 16:50:49 <sipa> smart miner sees the transaction, changes it to payment to himself, and puts it in a block
1072 2011-11-03 16:50:50 <graingert> release the hash
1073 2011-11-03 16:50:57 <d33tah> oh fuck
1074 2011-11-03 16:50:58 <d33tah> right
1075 2011-11-03 16:51:20 <d33tah> so it'd have to be secret between the donor and the receiver to work?
1076 2011-11-03 16:51:22 <luke-jr> anyhow, if you could find collisions, Bitcoin wouldn't work
1077 2011-11-03 16:51:27 <luke-jr> the point is that you *can't* find collisions
1078 2011-11-03 16:51:33 <graingert> yeah so it doesn't help :p
1079 2011-11-03 16:51:49 <d33tah> so it's basically impossible to trade hashes this way?
1080 2011-11-03 16:51:55 <graingert> the bounty would have to be huge
1081 2011-11-03 16:51:56 <sipa> why would you want to?
1082 2011-11-03 16:51:58 <luke-jr> d33tah: it's basically impossible to find hashes
1083 2011-11-03 16:51:59 <graingert> to compete with bitcoin mining
1084 2011-11-03 16:52:12 <graingert> more than galactic huge :p
1085 2011-11-03 16:52:21 <d33tah> hm, why that huge?
1086 2011-11-03 16:52:28 <d33tah> the miner code would have to be polymorphic
1087 2011-11-03 16:52:33 <graingert> because it would be much mroe profitable to mine
1088 2011-11-03 16:52:43 <sipa> it costs 2^128 SHA256 operations to find a collision, if no weakness is found
1089 2011-11-03 16:53:05 <sipa> and 2^256 SHA256 operations to find a preimage, which is probably what you're aiming for
1090 2011-11-03 16:53:23 <d33tah> if the bounty is over the limit, add the code checking if we have a collision to the main hashing routine
1091 2011-11-03 16:53:35 <d33tah> hm, damn, i was so enthusiastic about it :P
1092 2011-11-03 16:53:36 <sipa> i still don't see the purpose
1093 2011-11-03 16:53:39 <d33tah> well
1094 2011-11-03 16:53:41 <d33tah> black hats
1095 2011-11-03 16:53:45 <sipa> what problem are you trying to solve?
1096 2011-11-03 16:54:05 <luke-jr> d33tah: you *can't* find a hash.
1097 2011-11-03 16:54:19 <luke-jr> if you can, you've broken Bitcoin
1098 2011-11-03 16:54:32 <graingert> d33tah: there is not enough energy in the universe to brute force it
1099 2011-11-03 16:54:44 <d33tah> finding a preimage of a single hash would break the network?
1100 2011-11-03 16:55:08 <sipa> no, but being able to do so cheaply would break the usefulness
1101 2011-11-03 16:55:52 <d33tah> i just was thinking
1102 2011-11-03 16:55:59 <graingert> d33tah: no you wern't
1103 2011-11-03 16:56:30 <d33tah> if thousands of users keep mining milions of hashes per seconds for hours... the possibility should be within reach
1104 2011-11-03 16:56:39 <sipa> no
1105 2011-11-03 16:56:43 <d33tah> though i guess i should believe you guys it's not ;p
1106 2011-11-03 16:56:52 <d33tah> graingert: it wasn't too nice, man.
1107 2011-11-03 16:58:12 <graingert> It's a truefact
1108 2011-11-03 16:58:39 <d33tah> the fact is that i was thinking indeed, just didn't have enough knowledge of the topic
1109 2011-11-03 16:58:50 <graingert> the amount of energy it takes to increment a number 2^256 times
1110 2011-11-03 16:59:24 AStove has joined
1111 2011-11-03 16:59:34 <graingert> not counting the sha operation
1112 2011-11-03 16:59:49 <graingert> is more than it is physically possible to obtain
1113 2011-11-03 17:00:03 <d33tah> alright
1114 2011-11-03 17:00:18 <d33tah> it's not what offended me, it's you implying i wasn't thinking
1115 2011-11-03 17:00:36 <sipa> finding a weakness in ECDSA or SHA256 is more likely that it being brute-forced
1116 2011-11-03 17:01:05 <graingert> compromising the algorithm is possible
1117 2011-11-03 17:01:06 <sipa> and a bug in the software implementation is even much more likely than that, imho
1118 2011-11-03 17:01:28 <d33tah> that's pretty much how I imagine the death of Bitcoin
1119 2011-11-03 17:01:29 <graingert> there was a very odd bug in bitcoin
1120 2011-11-03 17:01:37 <d33tah> a single bug would screw it all up, wouldn't it?
1121 2011-11-03 17:01:48 <graingert> nope it's happened before
1122 2011-11-03 17:01:59 <sipa> the integer overflow issue?
1123 2011-11-03 17:02:00 <d33tah> i mean, a bug in the client, not the protocol
1124 2011-11-03 17:02:08 <graingert> yep integer overflow
1125 2011-11-03 17:02:36 <sipa> that's the only actual software bug in bitcoin itself with security consequences i know of
1126 2011-11-03 17:03:43 <d33tah> though, if there was some bug allowing the offender to force the client to send any kinds of transactions, wouldn't it be the end of Bitcoin?
1127 2011-11-03 17:04:06 <d33tah> what would be done? fast-rewind to the first uncompromised block? doesn't sound too rational
1128 2011-11-03 17:04:43 <sipa> with an encrypted wallet, that would be impossible
1129 2011-11-03 17:04:59 <graingert> an offline wallet it would be impossible
1130 2011-11-03 17:05:04 <graingert> as the client isn't running
1131 2011-11-03 17:05:07 <sipa> as the client doesn't have the keys necessary to create the transaction, unless the passphrase is given
1132 2011-11-03 17:05:17 <d33tah> keyloggers? code injection?
1133 2011-11-03 17:05:24 <sipa> yes, those are threats
1134 2011-11-03 17:05:28 <graingert> yeah but that would only be a few
1135 2011-11-03 17:05:30 <sipa> but beyond the control of bitcoin
1136 2011-11-03 17:05:32 <graingert> not everyone all at once
1137 2011-11-03 17:05:59 <d33tah> but in a pretty short time though
1138 2011-11-03 17:10:23 erle- has joined
1139 2011-11-03 17:12:07 <graingert> nope
1140 2011-11-03 17:12:18 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|erus`: The ban wasn't for me. It was requested, and the last thing I want to do when waking up at 4am for work is hear IRC people bitch about join/parts
1141 2011-11-03 17:12:25 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I can /ignore it
1142 2011-11-03 17:12:33 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|other' seem to have problems with that
1143 2011-11-03 17:12:36 <BlueMatt> what does laanwj go by on here, again?
1144 2011-11-03 17:13:55 <BlueMatt> also, does someone want to explain https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/fbea7eca656bf5797a2c5cf748715a1ae332835b#diff-1
1145 2011-11-03 17:14:13 graingert has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1146 2011-11-03 17:22:12 <sipa> BlueMatt: wumpus
1147 2011-11-03 17:23:29 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ping
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1152 2011-11-03 17:33:38 <ciscoftw> "Set gen=1 to attempt to generate bitcoins" (bitcoin.conf) ...what purpose does this serve? seems like its not neccessary to set this flag...
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1158 2011-11-03 17:43:30 <invisiblemonk> god, aws being slow again.
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1160 2011-11-03 17:46:56 <nanotube> ciscoftw: not necessary, that's only if you want to use the built-in miner
1161 2011-11-03 17:47:01 <nanotube> which you probably don't
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1166 2011-11-03 17:55:22 <ciscoftw> thanx for reply nontube: so if i had rpc clients connected to the bitcoind server, i would need that flag set?
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1170 2011-11-03 18:12:11 <sipa> ciscoftw: you don't need that flag, and i suggest to turn it off
1171 2011-11-03 18:12:22 <sipa> unless for testing purposes, and not on mainnet
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1192 2011-11-03 18:49:41 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: where do you see that, even?
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1201 2011-11-03 19:20:02 <ciscoftw> luke-jr: within the bitcoin.conf file...
1202 2011-11-03 19:21:12 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: what bitcoin.conf file?
1203 2011-11-03 19:22:05 <ciscoftw> just seems like i cannot find any info regarding why i would/wouldnt want it.. still dl'ing the blockchain, so i cant test yet... but im thinking without it set gen=0 (the client will not attempt to mine) ...regardless how many clients are connected to it
1204 2011-11-03 19:22:39 <luke-jr> you always want it off
1205 2011-11-03 19:22:50 <luke-jr> it'll probably be removed entirely soon
1206 2011-11-03 19:23:07 <cocktopus> it is less efficient than standalone alternatives
1207 2011-11-03 19:23:15 <cocktopus> by like, a lot
1208 2011-11-03 19:24:51 <ciscoftw> less efficient in what respects? ...so the answer to my question would be, using the bitcoind client to mine does NOT matter how the "gen" flag is set.
1209 2011-11-03 19:25:17 <cocktopus> correct, the gen flag uses the client as a miner
1210 2011-11-03 19:25:18 gp5st has joined
1211 2011-11-03 19:25:29 <cocktopus> you need the server flag to just host a solo mining setup
1212 2011-11-03 19:25:53 gp5st has left ()
1213 2011-11-03 19:26:24 <cocktopus> using server allows you to solo mine with an optimized miner, instead of what's built in to the client
1214 2011-11-03 19:26:46 <luke-jr> 'gen'
1215 2011-11-03 19:26:50 <luke-jr> 'gen' controls the bitcoind miner
1216 2011-11-03 19:27:00 <luke-jr> bitcoind provides work via JSON-RPC with or without it
1217 2011-11-03 19:27:22 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: FWIW, you're better off not CPU mining at all, and if you have a GPU using an optimized pool like #Eligius
1218 2011-11-03 19:27:23 <ciscoftw> ohhhh, i never even knew the client could mine... thanks make much more sense. many thanx. all my clients connect over rpc to the bitcoind service
1219 2011-11-03 19:27:57 <cocktopus> luke-jr, do you know when it will be removed completely?
1220 2011-11-03 19:28:06 <cocktopus> and how much space is estimated to save?
1221 2011-11-03 19:28:21 <luke-jr> cocktopus: who needs space?
1222 2011-11-03 19:28:24 <luke-jr> software is tiny
1223 2011-11-03 19:28:33 <cocktopus> i know but meh
1224 2011-11-03 19:28:38 <luke-jr> I'd guess 0.6 at the earliest
1225 2011-11-03 19:28:54 <luke-jr> probably later than that tho
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1227 2011-11-03 19:29:18 <cocktopus> if i compile it, can i disable a flag to leave it out, or is it not possible that way
1228 2011-11-03 19:29:34 <luke-jr> no
1229 2011-11-03 19:29:38 <luke-jr> patches welcome, I'm sure
1230 2011-11-03 19:29:59 <cocktopus> yah ok
1231 2011-11-03 19:30:00 <luke-jr> but really, I don't think anyone *cares* to do the work to #ifdef or remove it
1232 2011-11-03 19:30:21 <ciscoftw> i do about 2,000 Mh/s (between 4 machines), been in a pool for last 2months (got 25btc) i'm just gonna go solo now, hence all these questions regarding the gen flag. didnt know that gen flag was to have the bitcoin service itself mine... not really what a bitcoin client is for imo, then again i suppose when cpu mining was still possible it had its purpoes
1233 2011-11-03 19:31:22 <Raccoon> Google Chrome users:  http://www.google.com/search?q=Do+a+Barrel+Roll
1234 2011-11-03 19:31:39 <cocktopus> works in other browsers too
1235 2011-11-03 19:31:57 <Raccoon> like what browsers
1236 2011-11-03 19:32:13 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: better to stick with a good pool
1237 2011-11-03 19:32:15 <cocktopus> firefox and equivalent
1238 2011-11-03 19:32:39 <Raccoon> not any finished version of Firefox
1239 2011-11-03 19:33:12 <luke-jr> also, note that the built-in miner has been slowed down to simplify the code, recently
1240 2011-11-03 19:33:33 <luke-jr> since its new "purpose" is to make it easy to testnet-in-a-box mine
1241 2011-11-03 19:34:12 ej__ has joined
1242 2011-11-03 19:34:46 <cocktopus> !bc,calcd 2000000 [bc,diff]
1243 2011-11-03 19:34:47 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1203461.92638, is 4 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 53 minutes, and 34 seconds
1244 2011-11-03 19:35:03 <ciscoftw> luke-jr: dont really care about btc at this point, all my hardware is nvidia anyway... used to run pyrit (preshare master key generation) ...just runs bitcoin when not gen'ing psks
1245 2011-11-03 19:35:29 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: just sayin
1246 2011-11-03 19:35:59 <cocktopus> not running constantly reduces your probability of finding a block anyway
1247 2011-11-03 19:36:08 PK is now known as PK|Dinner
1248 2011-11-03 19:36:13 <ciscoftw> si si, i'm pretty sure i'll never solve a block, took me a month to submit 1mil shares..
1249 2011-11-03 19:36:13 <luke-jr> not really, no
1250 2011-11-03 19:36:56 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: you know the nvidias will use less power if you leave them idle instead?
1251 2011-11-03 19:37:03 ej_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1252 2011-11-03 19:37:08 <cocktopus> power == money :D
1253 2011-11-03 19:37:08 <ciscoftw> :)
1254 2011-11-03 19:37:30 <ciscoftw> this runs at work, power = free (kinda) ...free for me
1255 2011-11-03 19:37:50 <luke-jr> pretty sure most companies would consider that an abuse
1256 2011-11-03 19:38:13 <ciscoftw> should see this rig running when pyrit is cooking
1257 2011-11-03 19:38:24 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1258 2011-11-03 19:39:01 <cocktopus> ciscoftw: what do you charge for key cracking
1259 2011-11-03 19:39:42 <ciscoftw> nodda, its part of the audit(s)
1260 2011-11-03 19:40:02 <ciscoftw> cracking isnt all that intense,  its the table generation
1261 2011-11-03 19:40:06 <cocktopus> ah ic
1262 2011-11-03 19:40:38 slush has joined
1263 2011-11-03 19:40:51 <ciscoftw> would be nice to have some ati hardware for btc though... better off just buying. nvidia is just horrible at sha
1264 2011-11-03 19:41:14 Guest6060 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1265 2011-11-03 19:41:19 <ciscoftw> but buying ati hardware would surely be an abuse :)
1266 2011-11-03 19:41:37 <luke-jr> indeed
1267 2011-11-03 19:41:38 <cocktopus> lol yes since it is slower at floating point you couldn't justify it
1268 2011-11-03 19:42:47 <ciscoftw> and i'm not gonna pony up 500bucks for coulpe cards, when i could just buy it, wanna say two/three weeks ago btw was less than 2bucks
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1270 2011-11-03 19:45:41 <luke-jr> lol
1271 2011-11-03 19:45:50 <luke-jr> hasn't been that low since like February :P
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1294 2011-11-03 20:51:24 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * rc589f09 / contrib/gitian-descriptors/qt-win32.yml : Make qt-win32 gitian build deterministic - http://git.io/GVFmWw
1295 2011-11-03 20:51:24 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r25e6573 / contrib/gitian-descriptors/qt-win32.yml :
1296 2011-11-03 20:51:24 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Merge pull request #604 from laanwj/winqt_deterministic
1297 2011-11-03 20:51:24 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Make qt-win32 gitian build deterministic - http://git.io/mMMsgQ
1298 2011-11-03 20:52:31 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
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1305 2011-11-03 21:08:18 dgores has joined
1306 2011-11-03 21:08:53 <dgores> CTransaction.nLockTime is always 0?  I do not see anywhere its set to anything else.
1307 2011-11-03 21:09:37 terrytibbsASDF has joined
1308 2011-11-03 21:09:37 <gmaxwell> dgores: Yes, it's a feature that we currently do not use.
1309 2011-11-03 21:09:43 terrytibbsASDF has left ()
1310 2011-11-03 21:09:58 <gmaxwell> Its validated by the network, but the official client doesn't make use of it.
1311 2011-11-03 21:10:14 <dgores> Thanks.  How about... in general, what does IsFinal mean?
1312 2011-11-03 21:12:48 <gmaxwell> Part of the idea behind nlocktime was that locked transactions could be replaced... IsFinal is just the check that the replacement has passed (e.g. because the transaction is now unlocked)
1313 2011-11-03 21:13:19 <gmaxwell> If you're reading the code, keep in mind that just because e.g. nothing in the official bitcoin client sets nlocktime!=0 that doesn't mean that something else on the network couldn't.
1314 2011-11-03 21:13:31 <gmaxwell> So there is code to deal with that, and it's not dead code.
1315 2011-11-03 21:14:06 <dgores> you mean... a transaction could be replaced before the block has been generated?
1316 2011-11-03 21:15:09 <gmaxwell> dgores: Locked transactions (transactions with nlocktime!=0) could be replaced before their lock expires.
1317 2011-11-03 21:15:35 <sipa> locked transactions are never included in blocks
1318 2011-11-03 21:15:42 <gmaxwell> (though the actual _replacement_ code doesn't exist IIRC, but nodes still can't mine non-final transactions)
1319 2011-11-03 21:15:55 <sipa> indeed
1320 2011-11-03 21:16:29 b4epoche has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1324 2011-11-03 21:17:21 <b4epoche> wtf?  ask a question and the network immediate hiccups
1325 2011-11-03 21:17:41 <copumpkin> we saw nothing
1326 2011-11-03 21:18:00 <gmaxwell> We never saw your question. Perhaps your question was not harmonious with the views of the powers that be?
1327 2011-11-03 21:18:03 <gmaxwell> ;)
1328 2011-11-03 21:18:16 <sipa> peer intervened
1329 2011-11-03 21:18:18 <b4epoche> does it seem reasonable that the current network hashing power could crack a 27-lowercase-alphabetic character password in 10 minutes?
1330 2011-11-03 21:18:31 <b4epoche> maybe the network hiccuped just before asking...
1331 2011-11-03 21:18:41 * b4epoche saw sipa's "indeed"
1332 2011-11-03 21:18:50 <sipa> that's comparable to a 127 bit keyspace
1333 2011-11-03 21:18:54 <sipa> *equivalent
1334 2011-11-03 21:18:58 <sipa> so i'd say no :)
1335 2011-11-03 21:19:20 <gmaxwell> log2(26^27)=126.91
1336 2011-11-03 21:19:24 <gmaxwell> yea. _No_.
1337 2011-11-03 21:22:09 mizerydearia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1338 2011-11-03 21:22:37 <dgores> Thanks for the clarification.  So miners never include non-final transactions in their blocks. :)
1339 2011-11-03 21:23:03 <gmaxwell> Or more importantly, the block would be invalid if it contained any.
1340 2011-11-03 21:26:14 agricocb has joined
1341 2011-11-03 21:27:58 <b4epoche> hmm…  what's wrong with my calculation of 27 k-multicombos of 27 being about 970 trillion?
1342 2011-11-03 21:28:47 <b4epoche> and at roughly 1 trillion hashes per second...
1343 2011-11-03 21:28:52 <sipa> no idea, how did you come to that result?
1344 2011-11-03 21:29:11 <sipa> 26^27 = 160059109085386090080713531498405298176
1345 2011-11-03 21:29:58 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: are you couting only selection and not permutation?
1346 2011-11-03 21:30:04 <b4epoche> 27 combinations of 27 objects with repeats
1347 2011-11-03 21:30:04 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
1348 2011-11-03 21:30:38 <sipa> 26 objects, no?
1349 2011-11-03 21:31:00 mizerydearia has joined
1350 2011-11-03 21:31:26 <b4epoche> eh, duh, yea...
1351 2011-11-03 21:31:33 <sipa> otherwise that's correct
1352 2011-11-03 21:31:55 <sipa> but selecting n elements from m possibilities, with order important and repeats allowed: m^n
1353 2011-11-03 21:32:22 TheZimm has joined
1354 2011-11-03 21:32:52 <b4epoche> ah, yea, I was doing order unimportant…
1355 2011-11-03 21:33:03 <gmaxwell> That why I asked about not permutation.
1356 2011-11-03 21:33:06 * b4epoche hates statistics
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1358 2011-11-03 21:33:36 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
1359 2011-11-03 21:33:49 <b4epoche> for some stupid reason I was thinking order was unimportant which is just dumb
1360 2011-11-03 21:34:22 <gmaxwell> the n^m form is pretty intutive though ... N ways ... times N ways.. and so on.
1361 2011-11-03 21:34:42 <b4epoche> yea, I was making it harder than it is
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1364 2011-11-03 21:36:40 <sipa> @seen BlueMatt
1365 2011-11-03 21:36:48 <sipa> ;;seen BlueMatt
1366 2011-11-03 21:36:48 <gribble> BlueMatt was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 hours, 13 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <BlueMatt> wumpus: ping
1367 2011-11-03 21:37:15 <b4epoche> so, about an 11 character (lowercase alphabetic) password
1368 2011-11-03 21:37:26 <sipa> 51 bits
1369 2011-11-03 21:38:24 <sipa> ;;bc,spotest
1370 2011-11-03 21:38:24 <gribble> Error: "bc,spotest" is not a valid command.
1371 2011-11-03 21:38:26 <sipa> ;;bc,spotestimate
1372 2011-11-03 21:38:27 <gribble> 1179311.65836
1373 2011-11-03 21:38:28 TD_ has joined
1374 2011-11-03 21:38:48 <b4epoche> 51 bits?
1375 2011-11-03 21:39:11 Mad7Scientist is now known as POPCNT
1376 2011-11-03 21:39:18 <sipa> ;;bc,help
1377 2011-11-03 21:39:18 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,altprofit, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,bitpenny, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,bounty, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,btcto, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,exchb, Alias bc,fx, (2 more messages)
1378 2011-11-03 21:39:23 <sipa> ;;bc,hashspeed
1379 2011-11-03 21:39:24 <gribble> Error: "bc,hashspeed" is not a valid command.
1380 2011-11-03 21:39:26 Beremat has joined
1381 2011-11-03 21:39:26 <sipa> ;;bc,hashrate
1382 2011-11-03 21:39:27 <gribble> Error: "bc,hashrate" is not a valid command.
1383 2011-11-03 21:39:32 <b4epoche> password length?  I'm trying to come up with examples lay-people can relate to
1384 2011-11-03 21:39:33 <sipa> ;;bc,estimate
1385 2011-11-03 21:39:33 Nicksasa has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1386 2011-11-03 21:39:33 <gribble> 1190018.35695522
1387 2011-11-03 21:40:03 <midnightmagic> permutations and combinations isn't statistics, it's discrete math :-)
1388 2011-11-03 21:40:08 <midnightmagic> :-D
1389 2011-11-03 21:40:10 <sipa> it's combinatorics
1390 2011-11-03 21:40:22 <b4epoche> and I still hate statistics
1391 2011-11-03 21:40:50 <sipa> b4epoche: i say "51 bits" because it corresponds to searching a 2^51 keyspace
1392 2011-11-03 21:41:28 <midnightmagic> commonly lumped together with discrete math, in a course usually called discrete math.
1393 2011-11-03 21:42:22 * b4epoche went the continuum route in math
1394 2011-11-03 21:42:24 <midnightmagic> but i guess technically is combinatorics.
1395 2011-11-03 21:42:33 <sipa> b4epoche: so if each password attempt costs as much as a bitcoin block hash attempt, the current bitcoin network would do it in 450s
1396 2011-11-03 21:42:57 <sipa> however, if e.g. key strengthening is applied, it costs a lot more per attempt
1397 2011-11-03 21:43:13 <gmaxwell> Or if, e.g. it was just regular 1x md5 .. it would go _much_ faster.
1398 2011-11-03 21:43:49 mizerydearia has joined
1399 2011-11-03 21:43:58 <sipa> @later tell BlueMatt ok, i got gitian to build bitcoin again!
1400 2011-11-03 21:44:09 <sipa> ;;later tell BlueMatt ok, i got gitian to build bitcoin again!
1401 2011-11-03 21:44:09 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1402 2011-11-03 21:44:53 <midnightmagic> it would be interesting if the bitcoin network itself included a way to request, offer to pay, and distribute the results of, cracking problems.
1403 2011-11-03 21:44:55 <b4epoche> I'm just looking for a few tidbits to get people oriented with hashing, 'big numbers', and 'hard problems'
1404 2011-11-03 21:45:22 <b4epoche> this damn TEDx talk is fast approaching...
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1408 2011-11-03 21:45:36 <midnightmagic> b4epoche: are you doing one?
1409 2011-11-03 21:45:43 <b4epoche> yes
1410 2011-11-03 21:46:13 <b4epoche> and I need to explain to the graphic designer putting the slides together how to illustrate all this for a general audience
1411 2011-11-03 21:46:54 <midnightmagic> b4epoche: sweet, someone I know is doing one too.. he's doing biohacking. do you have any links that will eventually be a way to watch it?
1412 2011-11-03 21:47:17 <b4epoche> I was thinking of trying to explain the proof-of-work in terms of password cracking.  with difficulty adjustments being changes in the password length
1413 2011-11-03 21:47:25 ThomasV has joined
1414 2011-11-03 21:47:43 <b4epoche> probably here:  http://www.tedxpsu.com/
1415 2011-11-03 21:47:49 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: it's comprehensible but it fosters a view that bitcoin is somehow illigimate or unlawful.
1416 2011-11-03 21:48:02 <midnightmagic> cool beans man, i hope you rock it.
1417 2011-11-03 21:48:34 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: There is some youtube video with an idiot blabering on about that "Oh? So what do you think bitcoin is doing with all that computing power?!?! It's cracking passwords!"
1418 2011-11-03 21:50:19 <midnightmagic> b4epoche: You're Eric? That is an AWESOME last name man. :)
1419 2011-11-03 21:51:03 <b4epoche> Yea, I'm Eric
1420 2011-11-03 21:51:48 <b4epoche> gmaxwell:  that's true…
1421 2011-11-03 21:52:30 <b4epoche> I'm trying to come up with a some way of explaining 'adjustably hard problems'
1422 2011-11-03 21:52:31 <gmaxwell> If you just want to wow them count up the add operations used in 2xsha256
1423 2011-11-03 21:52:52 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1424 2011-11-03 21:52:53 <gmaxwell> Then estimate how long it would take to do a 32,32 add on a set of abacuses.
1425 2011-11-03 21:53:04 <gmaxwell> Then divide by the worlds population.
1426 2011-11-03 21:53:21 <midnightmagic> the best way i've found so far to explain it to people is a dartboard analogy, with shrinking pie-slices to aim for..
1427 2011-11-03 21:53:47 <edcba> b4epoche: what about problem of varying difficulty ? :)
1428 2011-11-03 21:54:06 <gmaxwell> I've explained it as rolling many-sided dice with accutable solutions being increasingly small values.
1429 2011-11-03 21:54:16 [Tycho] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1430 2011-11-03 21:54:17 <b4epoche> the problem with problems is that most people think that the smarter you are the faster you'll solve them
1431 2011-11-03 21:54:18 <edcba> a sudoku less and less filled :)
1432 2011-11-03 21:54:22 <gmaxwell> But people tend not to believe that the mining process is like dice.
1433 2011-11-03 21:54:56 <gmaxwell> edcba: sudoku have superliner solvers, not really the same kind of problem.
1434 2011-11-03 21:55:26 <b4epoche> dart board also suggests that if you're better at darts you'll have better odds
1435 2011-11-03 21:55:42 <midnightmagic> the leap of faith happens the moment they accept that putting data into SHA256 gives you a mystery number back out of it.
1436 2011-11-03 21:55:49 <b4epoche> maybe it's like being able to predict the weather accurately N days out
1437 2011-11-03 21:55:51 <gmaxwell> Well, back to my dice.  .. except the dice have 2^256 sides.. a bit hard to visualize.
1438 2011-11-03 21:55:56 <b4epoche> well, for N straight days
1439 2011-11-03 21:56:02 <edcba> finding something at random with some properties
1440 2011-11-03 21:56:09 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: yes, well, we're only hoping that SHA256 is a random oracle!
1441 2011-11-03 21:56:42 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: the weather still has an enormous gain from getting the basic behavior right.
1442 2011-11-03 21:57:07 <b4epoche> true
1443 2011-11-03 21:57:13 <edcba> phone calling ppl at random and hoping they are called julia
1444 2011-11-03 21:57:53 <edcba> or you could just use mining with rock having particular shape
1445 2011-11-03 21:58:03 <b4epoche> thx all…  I gotta get home to eat some dinner
1446 2011-11-03 21:58:23 <midnightmagic> i call it a mystery number.. i avoid calling it random in case someone thinks a calculation can't be random, which i encounter surprisingly often.
1447 2011-11-03 21:58:36 <edcba> ok it's like doing jenga with rocks
1448 2011-11-03 21:58:36 <midnightmagic> hoping they're called julia. awesome. :)
1449 2011-11-03 21:58:43 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: yea, I have that problem with the dice analogy, they think the process can't be like throwing dice.
1450 2011-11-03 21:59:00 <edcba> the higher the block chain the most secure it is
1451 2011-11-03 21:59:09 <b4epoche> well, isn't it the inverse problem that's random
1452 2011-11-03 21:59:13 <edcba> and the difficulty change according previous piece
1453 2011-11-03 21:59:38 <midnightmagic> just wave my hands and say, "Nobody knows how to predict the number or go backwards.. YET.." dun dun DUNNNN
1454 2011-11-03 22:01:01 [Tycho] has joined
1455 2011-11-03 22:01:34 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: The hash is believed to be a random oracle, upto computational intractability.
1456 2011-11-03 22:01:44 [Tycho] has quit (Changing host)
1457 2011-11-03 22:01:44 [Tycho] has joined
1458 2011-11-03 22:01:52 RuzzlePuzzle has joined
1459 2011-11-03 22:01:55 <gmaxwell> You put a number in .. a number comes out. You can't predict anything about the number that comes out, or go backwards.
1460 2011-11-03 22:02:02 <midnightmagic> hey Tycho! did the ddos people stop yet? also, your IRC client joins a channel before it authenticates with nickserv, fyi.
1461 2011-11-03 22:02:28 <RuzzlePuzzle> hey guys
1462 2011-11-03 22:02:31 <RuzzlePuzzle> i got a massive problem
1463 2011-11-03 22:02:33 <midnightmagic> except maybe a good distribution..
1464 2011-11-03 22:02:48 <[Tycho]> midnightmagic, yes, I know it.
1465 2011-11-03 22:02:51 <gavinandresen> I like the throwing dice analogy-- you're throwing 200 dice and hoping 20 of them come up ones.  Difficulty goes up... hoping that 21 of them come up ones....
1466 2011-11-03 22:03:04 <[Tycho]> I think that we have no DDoS at this moment.
1467 2011-11-03 22:03:08 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: No, thats not promised either. There may be subspaces where it's all zeros that come out or something. :)
1468 2011-11-03 22:03:23 <[Tycho]> It usualy doesn't last for a long time because it's expensive.
1469 2011-11-03 22:03:51 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: hrm. I thought one of the properties was a random-like distribution? like we're confident that it's not going to shift towards the upper-end of the possible result space?
1470 2011-11-03 22:03:52 cenuij has joined
1471 2011-11-03 22:04:14 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: the best thing about the dice is that people instantly get the linearity of it.  If you and I are both playing this game, and you throw 2x faster than me, you'll get 2x the solutions.. but I'll still get solutions too.
1472 2011-11-03 22:04:22 <[Tycho]> Sometimes some home users try to flood us with just http requests, but this doesn't affect my servers, I only see it in my logs :)
1473 2011-11-03 22:04:25 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yup
1474 2011-11-03 22:05:01 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: If you can reliably show that its not random then its not a random oracle, but thats not the same as being able to show that it meets any perticular constraint. Perhaps this is a bit too pedantic.
1475 2011-11-03 22:05:10 <midnightmagic> [Tycho]: well that's good. :) hey I don't suppose you have namecoin merged-mining in deepbit's eventual future?
1476 2011-11-03 22:05:48 <RuzzlePuzzle> I have a bunch of servers which dont allow me to open connections, but they allow me to create connections (cheaper) but... I want to use them as proxies so... I register them all on a centralised (i guess) DNS type server which I use to proxy through into the machines. The problem is, either I leave a socket open for each reverse connection to tell them when they are needed and to establish
1477 2011-11-03 22:05:48 <RuzzlePuzzle> another tcp connection or.... I make them spam the server checking a resource to see if they are needed.
1478 2011-11-03 22:06:36 <RuzzlePuzzle> if I leave a bunch of connections open, thats sucks, and if I make them spam a resource on the server that sucks even more
1479 2011-11-03 22:06:41 <RuzzlePuzzle> what can I do?
1480 2011-11-03 22:06:45 devrandom has joined
1481 2011-11-03 22:06:52 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: hrm. i'm pretty sure SHA has as one of its qualities uniform distribution.. ? well now I can't find any reference for that.
1482 2011-11-03 22:06:53 <gmaxwell> Pay for access to a better botnet?
1483 2011-11-03 22:07:13 <RuzzlePuzzle> these are cheap webservers
1484 2011-11-03 22:07:40 <RuzzlePuzzle> im using php to create the connections
1485 2011-11-03 22:07:48 <midnightmagic> ah, I'm mixing it up. Uniform distribution != random-like distribution.
1486 2011-11-03 22:07:51 <RuzzlePuzzle> open ports is not allowed
1487 2011-11-03 22:10:20 <RuzzlePuzzle> programs like skype, teamview and bitcoin must do this already?
1488 2011-11-03 22:10:25 <RuzzlePuzzle> how do they deal with it?
1489 2011-11-03 22:10:40 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1490 2011-11-03 22:11:00 <gmaxwell> RuzzlePuzzle: clients that listen, listen. Clients that don't don't.  UPNP is used to try to increase the number of listening clients.
1491 2011-11-03 22:11:50 <RuzzlePuzzle> where can I find an upnp example in the bitcoin source?
1492 2011-11-03 22:12:26 AStove has quit ()
1493 2011-11-03 22:13:06 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1494 2011-11-03 22:13:24 Zarutian has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1495 2011-11-03 22:14:10 <DrHaribo> Bah. I created some broken generation transactions on testnet. Anyone know how different transactions must be to not be considered duplicates?
1496 2011-11-03 22:14:14 <gmaxwell> RuzzlePuzzle: bitcoin uses a upnp library, but thats not what you wan't if you're not permitted to listen.
1497 2011-11-03 22:14:30 <gmaxwell> DrHaribo: they need to not have the same hash.
1498 2011-11-03 22:14:34 <DrHaribo> Is it enough to have 1 byte be different in the coinbase?
1499 2011-11-03 22:14:40 <DrHaribo> Ah great - then that should do it
1500 2011-11-03 22:15:10 <DrHaribo> Thanks, gmaxwell !
1501 2011-11-03 22:18:09 <RuzzlePuzzle> gmaxwell: true. im not sure what other options I have
1502 2011-11-03 22:18:50 <RuzzlePuzzle> maybe I just need to pay a bit more for vpn's
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1505 2011-11-03 22:28:19 <[Tycho]> midnightmagic, no.
1506 2011-11-03 22:28:33 <midnightmagic> [Tycho]: okie doke! I'll stop bugging you.
1507 2011-11-03 22:29:18 <CIA-34> bitcoin: jedi95 * r2a3a6d2a9ee6 Phoenix-Miner/ (Miner.py minerutil/RPCProtocol.py): Set RPC LP timeout to 10 minutes. Version bump to 1.7.0
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1516 2011-11-03 22:41:18 * b4epoche_ is wondering how many sides an atomic perfect sphere with 1 meter diameter has
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1518 2011-11-03 22:42:07 <gmaxwell> a 1m buckball dice.
1519 2011-11-03 22:43:06 <gmaxwell> "The nucleus to nucleus diameter of a C60 molecule is about 0.71 nm"
1520 2011-11-03 22:44:52 <b4epoche_> yea, that too…  but a buckball die would not have equi-probability sides
1521 2011-11-03 22:45:19 <gmaxwell> nor would any spherical die.
1522 2011-11-03 22:45:25 <b4epoche_> I think you'd need a crystal with a tetragonal lattice
1523 2011-11-03 22:45:40 <b4epoche_> well, it obviously wouldn't be perfectly spherical
1524 2011-11-03 22:46:04 <gmaxwell> only the platonic solids let you make equalprobable quasispherical dice.
1525 2011-11-03 22:46:41 <gmaxwell> but you can make cylinerical ones, since you can construct a n-equal-sided polygon for any n.
1526 2011-11-03 22:47:26 <invisiblemonk> damn it.
1527 2011-11-03 22:47:42 <gmaxwell> if you admit more more dimensions you do get more regular polytopes though. Not exactly helpful for visualization.
1528 2011-11-03 22:48:27 <gmaxwell> (well, one more)
1529 2011-11-03 22:48:59 <b4epoche_> yea, I was thinking of a triangulated sphere
1530 2011-11-03 22:50:14 <midnightmagic> someone used to play.. d&d..?
1531 2011-11-03 22:50:51 <b4epoche_> long long ago
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1566 2011-11-03 23:50:20 <BlueMatt> sipa: re: gitian YAY!
1567 2011-11-03 23:50:53 TheZimm has joined
1568 2011-11-03 23:51:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: we need gavin to release a qt-win32 build as its build is not yet deterministic, then we can get everyone building the release and even do gitian releases :)
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