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  10 2011-11-04 00:19:39 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell sipa re: gitian YAY!
  11 2011-11-04 00:19:39 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
  12 2011-11-04 00:19:45 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell sipa we need gavin to release a qt-win32 build as its build is not yet deterministic, then we can get everyone building the release and even do gitian releases :)
  13 2011-11-04 00:19:45 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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  29 2011-11-04 00:38:55 <jjjrmy> Anyone hungry for some pizza?!
  30 2011-11-04 00:39:12 <sipa> i'll get you one for 10k BTC
  31 2011-11-04 00:39:55 <jjjrmy> sipa: www.bitpizza.net
  32 2011-11-04 00:41:16 <sipa> haha
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  35 2011-11-04 00:42:16 <jjjrmy> DO IT!
  36 2011-11-04 00:42:23 <sipa> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137.0
  37 2011-11-04 00:42:48 <jjjrmy> sipa: Yeah, I know. :p old news
  38 2011-11-04 00:43:00 <sipa> :)
  39 2011-11-04 00:43:08 <sipa> very old news
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  50 2011-11-04 01:16:27 <invisiblemonk> derp
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  86 2011-11-04 03:20:25 <roconnor> oh. TestNet has a script with an OP_2 instruction
  87 2011-11-04 03:20:31 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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  89 2011-11-04 03:21:48 <roconnor> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/e232e0055dbdca88bbaa79458683195a0b7c17c5b6c524a8d146721d4d4d652f#o1
  90 2011-11-04 03:34:04 <gmaxwell> I thought gavin had said he tried out op_eval on testnet?
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  92 2011-11-04 03:35:47 <roconnor> well, that is the first block that I encountered with a nonstandard script (that is executed)
  93 2011-11-04 03:37:34 <luke-jr> …
  94 2011-11-04 03:37:40 <luke-jr> plenty on mainnet
  95 2011-11-04 03:37:47 Diablo-D3 has joined
  96 2011-11-04 03:38:27 <roconnor> oh
  97 2011-11-04 03:38:32 <roconnor> I guess I haven't looked
  98 2011-11-04 03:41:16 plutonic has joined
  99 2011-11-04 03:45:18 * roconnor has a lot of script instructions to implment
 100 2011-11-04 03:47:07 <Diablo-D3> current top ten: deepbit, btcguild, slush, ars, eligius, bitcoins.lc, abcpool, bitclockers, btcmine, emc
 101 2011-11-04 03:47:27 <cocktopus> how could slush be top 10
 102 2011-11-04 03:47:33 <cocktopus> he has been down for days
 103 2011-11-04 03:50:04 <Diablo-D3> Im using last known rate
 104 2011-11-04 03:50:25 <Diablo-D3> if he doesnt come back up, I think Im going to take him out of the top 10
 105 2011-11-04 03:50:41 <Diablo-D3> slush: wheres your pool?
 106 2011-11-04 03:50:57 <slush> I'll be back in hour or so
 107 2011-11-04 03:51:00 <slush> hardware failure :*
 108 2011-11-04 03:51:02 <slush> eh :(
 109 2011-11-04 03:51:07 <Diablo-D3> ouch
 110 2011-11-04 03:51:59 <roconnor> Do all stack operations crash if there isn't sufficent input on the stack?
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 138 2011-11-04 05:14:29 <slush> huh, done
 139 2011-11-04 05:14:56 <slush> nine hours of installing
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 192 2011-11-04 07:08:29 <invisiblemonk> /portal 2
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 218 2011-11-04 08:51:30 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r96e84d7 / (3 files in 3 dirs): Various fixes for "database-agnosticism". (+6 more commits...) - http://git.io/YNZcIg
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 253 2011-11-04 10:33:31 <invisiblemonk> herp torbutton derp
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 263 2011-11-04 10:48:05 <dikidera> So guys i want to know..lets say i have a cdkey of some product which is KR44-Z793-CRJK-NHFD-KTCL(a random one i made up). Lets say i only know this part of the key KR44-Z793-CRJK-NHFD-KTCL how many possible combinations are there left possible to complete the key?
 264 2011-11-04 10:48:44 <dikidera> sorry, brain fart, lets say i know only THIS part of the key "KR44-Z793-CRJK"
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 267 2011-11-04 10:52:38 <edcba> ...
 268 2011-11-04 10:52:42 <edcba> simple math
 269 2011-11-04 10:52:56 <edcba> you miss 8 letters
 270 2011-11-04 10:53:10 <edcba> now you have to know how many different letters you can have
 271 2011-11-04 10:53:22 <edcba> let say 32
 272 2011-11-04 10:53:35 <edcba> you have 8**32 possibilities
 273 2011-11-04 10:53:45 <edcba> that is 2**96
 274 2011-11-04 10:54:17 <edcba> now that could be reduced i guess
 275 2011-11-04 10:54:27 <edcba> hmm
 276 2011-11-04 10:54:38 <edcba> 32**8 !
 277 2011-11-04 10:54:52 * edcba brain farts too
 278 2011-11-04 10:55:00 <edcba> 2**40
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 280 2011-11-04 10:55:32 <marf_away_away> !calc 32**8
 281 2011-11-04 10:55:32 <gribble> 1099511627776
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 283 2011-11-04 11:00:35 <dikidera> edcba:letters AND number
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 369 2011-11-04 14:32:33 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ping
 370 2011-11-04 14:32:42 <wumpus> hey BlueMatt
 371 2011-11-04 14:33:00 <sipa> hey both :)
 372 2011-11-04 14:33:12 <BlueMatt> hey, its a party
 373 2011-11-04 14:33:18 <BlueMatt> wheres gavinandresen?
 374 2011-11-04 14:33:26 <gavinandresen> who?
 375 2011-11-04 14:34:22 <wumpus> hi sipa
 376 2011-11-04 14:34:28 <wumpus> glad the power is back gavinandresen :)
 377 2011-11-04 14:34:46 <gavinandresen> me too!
 378 2011-11-04 14:35:00 <gavinandresen> kids are STILL home from school, though (had the entire week off)
 379 2011-11-04 14:35:23 <BlueMatt> lucky...I want a week off school
 380 2011-11-04 14:35:38 <BlueMatt> anyway, gavinandresen are you good for rc2 now?
 381 2011-11-04 14:36:07 <gavinandresen> yes, I'm just about to commit updates to release-process.txt and then will tag the tree rc2.  Mac builds are still broken, though....
 382 2011-11-04 14:36:08 <BlueMatt> oh, wait can someone check if we need to update the about dialog w/ gpl messages from bitcoin-qt image use
 383 2011-11-04 14:36:17 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ^
 384 2011-11-04 14:37:14 TheZimm has joined
 385 2011-11-04 14:37:29 <wumpus> yeah, I  guess we need to put all the things requiring attribution in the about page
 386 2011-11-04 14:37:35 <[Tycho]> Hello, gavinandresen.
 387 2011-11-04 14:37:43 <BlueMatt> yep
 388 2011-11-04 14:38:05 <wumpus> better to change the dialog and make it a scrollable text area :-)
 389 2011-11-04 14:38:18 <BlueMatt> yea, judging by the amount of attributions...
 390 2011-11-04 14:38:32 <BlueMatt> (and the like 10 licenses we need...)
 391 2011-11-04 14:38:38 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen v0.5.0rc2 * rf6aacbf / (6 files in 6 dirs): Mac releases use macdeployqtplus - http://git.io/o7gLeQ
 392 2011-11-04 14:38:38 <wumpus> I wonder how other open source projects solve this, I mean, most icons are pretty common ...
 393 2011-11-04 14:39:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: when you say mac builds are still broken, do you mean they are now fixed?
 394 2011-11-04 14:39:53 <gavinandresen> No, I mean I can't create a .dmg file that contains a Bitcoin-Qt.app that actually works because Qt's macdeploy script is broken
 395 2011-11-04 14:40:26 da2ce7 has quit ()
 396 2011-11-04 14:40:53 <sipa> wumpus: are you going to the bitcoin conference, btw?
 397 2011-11-04 14:41:12 <gavinandresen> Hey [Tycho]
 398 2011-11-04 14:41:21 Daniel0108 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 399 2011-11-04 14:41:45 <wumpus> sipa: nope, don't have the money and the time at the moment
 400 2011-11-04 14:42:10 <sipa> ah, too bad
 401 2011-11-04 14:42:11 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: and the commit you just pushed fixed it, or no?
 402 2011-11-04 14:42:16 <gavinandresen> no
 403 2011-11-04 14:42:24 <sipa> i'm still doubting whether i'd go
 404 2011-11-04 14:42:28 <wumpus> sipa: are you going?
 405 2011-11-04 14:42:39 <wumpus> I guess it'll be interesting
 406 2011-11-04 14:42:44 <gavinandresen> ... that'll either be a fix to macdeploy (which is a qt thing, not part of our tree) or will be a final release change.
 407 2011-11-04 14:43:14 <BlueMatt> mmm, yuck
 408 2011-11-04 14:43:24 <wumpus> so all mac qt application deployments fail now?
 409 2011-11-04 14:44:13 <BlueMatt> how do other apps do deployment on mac?
 410 2011-11-04 14:44:14 <wumpus> I mean, if it's an upstream problem, someone else is bound to have stumbled on it and maybe fixed/worked around it somehow
 411 2011-11-04 14:44:17 <wumpus> exactly
 412 2011-11-04 14:44:26 <gavinandresen> Bug 1 :  https://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-21913
 413 2011-11-04 14:44:35 <BlueMatt> or do they just use appstore now and not worry about it?
 414 2011-11-04 14:44:51 <gavinandresen> Dunno.
 415 2011-11-04 14:45:53 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, heh lost power?
 416 2011-11-04 14:46:04 <gavinandresen> Bug 2 I haven't filed-- looks like macdeployqt doesn't like libraries that are read-only in /opt/local/lib/...
 417 2011-11-04 14:46:10 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: yes, lost power for 5 days
 418 2011-11-04 14:46:11 <BlueMatt> has anyone actually tried to submit bitcoin-qt to the mac app store?
 419 2011-11-04 14:46:15 <phantomcircuit> heh
 420 2011-11-04 14:46:24 <phantomcircuit> im in like the only part of ct to not lose power
 421 2011-11-04 14:46:28 <phantomcircuit> pure dumb luck
 422 2011-11-04 14:46:30 <wumpus> I guess submitting things to the mac app store costs money
 423 2011-11-04 14:46:31 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: that would be a good thing to do when we have a 1.0 release
 424 2011-11-04 14:46:54 <gavinandresen> IMHO Bitcoin-Qt is still far from being really user-friendly.
 425 2011-11-04 14:47:00 <BlueMatt> wumpus: yea, but someone here has to have an app store subscription...
 426 2011-11-04 14:47:13 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I agree, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt submit to mac app store just to see what they say?
 427 2011-11-04 14:47:14 <cjdelisle> heh I'm in Heath and we got 22 inches but we didn't lose power
 428 2011-11-04 14:47:28 <sipa> BlueMatt: that also means we'd depend on that person for pushing timely updates to the store as well
 429 2011-11-04 14:47:38 <BlueMatt> well thats the other issue...
 430 2011-11-04 14:47:41 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: bad idea, I think that'd just bias them against bitcoin
 431 2011-11-04 14:48:18 <BlueMatt> they dont reject apps because they are non-user-friendly unless they are downright terrible
 432 2011-11-04 14:48:18 <[eval]> is there still a plan for a foundation? it'd be good if the app store subscription was in the name of the foundation instead of one person on whom you have to rely
 433 2011-11-04 14:48:29 <sipa> [eval]: indeed
 434 2011-11-04 14:49:55 <BlueMatt> also, now that we have gitian win32 deterministic, anyone want to sign up to do a gitian-downloader wrapper and automatic updater for the win32 version of bitcoin?
 435 2011-11-04 14:50:03 <wumpus> gavinandresen: what's missing from being really user friendly?
 436 2011-11-04 14:50:54 <gavinandresen> wumpus: Faster startup.  Not downloading the entire fricking blockchain.
 437 2011-11-04 14:51:02 <gavinandresen> wumpus: better wallet backup.
 438 2011-11-04 14:51:22 <gavinandresen> wumpus: easy way to protect the wallet from viruses/trojans.
 439 2011-11-04 14:51:24 <BlueMatt> less monolithic code design
 440 2011-11-04 14:51:32 <gavinandresen> ... I think that's all on my list (I'm probably forgetting something)
 441 2011-11-04 14:51:34 <gmaxwell> That isn't a user friendlyness issue itself.
 442 2011-11-04 14:51:47 <wumpus> huh, how is code design a UI issue
 443 2011-11-04 14:51:52 <sipa> not at all
 444 2011-11-04 14:51:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but its still on the list of things that should be done...
 445 2011-11-04 14:52:15 <BlueMatt> more of a programmer friendliness issue
 446 2011-11-04 14:52:43 <gmaxwell> Although being able to seperate the wallet and the backend may be useful for usability.  E.g. being able to leave your bitcoin backend running 'in the cloud' but just having a light weight wallet front end.
 447 2011-11-04 14:52:48 <gavinandresen> I learned that a nice, clean API doesn't matter at all when I took a look at the APIs for the Playstation and Nintendo boxes....  shudder....
 448 2011-11-04 14:52:48 <wumpus> though I agree it would be nice to do some refactoring of the core code
 449 2011-11-04 14:53:05 <gavinandresen> (actually, win32 api proves that, too...)
 450 2011-11-04 14:53:16 iocor has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
 451 2011-11-04 14:53:24 <wumpus> well I think it matters, up to a point
 452 2011-11-04 14:53:34 <wumpus> like everything, if you overdo it it only gets in the way again
 453 2011-11-04 14:53:45 <wumpus> if it's really bad it also gets in the way
 454 2011-11-04 14:53:51 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 455 2011-11-04 14:54:00 <wumpus> then again, I agree with your points gavinandresen
 456 2011-11-04 14:54:20 <gmaxwell> Considering what bitcoin does— doing more with RPC than API is probably the way to go... simply because we really don't want $random code executing in the same process as bitcoin.
 457 2011-11-04 14:54:31 <gavinandresen> I've never seen "nice and clean and easy for developers" be the deciding factor in a major API winning.  But I'm probably forgetting something
 458 2011-11-04 14:54:36 <gmaxwell> And the data that needs to be exchanged is _very_ low bandwidth.
 459 2011-11-04 14:54:52 <gavinandresen> NeWS versus Xwindows....  NeWS was a much nicer API/model, but X won....
 460 2011-11-04 14:54:53 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 462 2011-11-04 14:55:18 <wumpus> yes, but having code that is  a tangled mess is a danger in itself
 463 2011-11-04 14:55:47 * BlueMatt wrote like 60% of that split a while back...
 464 2011-11-04 14:55:53 <BlueMatt> (though noone cared, so I gave up)
 465 2011-11-04 14:55:54 <gmaxwell> I still boggle at people calling the bitcoin code tangled.
 466 2011-11-04 14:55:55 <gavinandresen> I agree we should write good code, and create clean APIs.  I just don't think it is a high priority.
 467 2011-11-04 14:55:57 <sipa> we should do that in steps
 468 2011-11-04 14:56:00 <wumpus> accidental complexity and security doesn't really combine very well
 469 2011-11-04 14:56:17 <sipa> first thing: a layer between ui+rpc and wallet that hides the internal data structures
 470 2011-11-04 14:56:32 <sipa> imho
 471 2011-11-04 14:56:49 <wumpus> BlueMatt: yeah it's pretty thankless work
 472 2011-11-04 14:56:55 <gavinandresen> Using boost's signals and slots for internal communication inside bitcoin would make a lot of things MUCH cleaner
 473 2011-11-04 14:56:59 <wumpus> gavinandresen: YES
 474 2011-11-04 14:57:08 <sipa> BlueMatt: imho, you rushed a bit into it
 475 2011-11-04 14:57:18 <sipa> wumpus, gavinandresen: definitely
 476 2011-11-04 14:57:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: true, but no one else was doing anything, so I just said screw it Im gonna split this up
 477 2011-11-04 14:57:50 <BlueMatt> and when I asked for comments all I got was "meh"
 478 2011-11-04 14:57:58 <wumpus> signals and async notifications would be great,  and more use of C++ idiom in general, like RAII
 479 2011-11-04 14:58:09 <wumpus> BlueMatt: welcome to bitcoin dev :P
 480 2011-11-04 14:58:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the splitting isn't exciting until it's 120% done.
 481 2011-11-04 14:58:33 <BlueMatt> wumpus: no, normally you more of a "cool, but Im not gonna help"
 482 2011-11-04 14:59:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: e.g. people will be very excited if they can have a UI+Wallet with no blockchain communicate with one or two somewhat trusted bitcoind... and not worry about the trouble of running a full node.
 483 2011-11-04 14:59:19 <wumpus> well, at least if someone rushes into it it gets done 
 484 2011-11-04 14:59:46 <gmaxwell> But that doesn't just require the split, it requires a lot of additional work, and without it (or things like it) the split alone isn't interesting.
 485 2011-11-04 14:59:57 <wumpus> but it would be easier with a split
 486 2011-11-04 15:00:02 <wumpus> that's the reason for infratstructure work
 487 2011-11-04 15:00:10 <sipa> BlueMatt: i still think that split is where we should aim for, but going all at once is a lot of work, and people won't see intermediate results
 488 2011-11-04 15:00:10 <gavinandresen> meh
 489 2011-11-04 15:00:13 <wumpus> making changes that you intend to do eventually easier
 490 2011-11-04 15:00:26 <wumpus> and more robust and clear etc..
 491 2011-11-04 15:00:44 <BlueMatt> true, but the split is the first step
 492 2011-11-04 15:00:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: there isnt much of a way to do a split like that piecemeal
 493 2011-11-04 15:01:03 <BlueMatt> you kind of have to just go for it...
 494 2011-11-04 15:01:20 <wumpus> yep
 495 2011-11-04 15:01:33 <sipa> sure, the actual split will always be a radical change
 496 2011-11-04 15:02:05 <gavinandresen> ... so you plan to spend a month working on a nice split, it actually takes six, and five months in somebody else releases a really nice open-source implementation that does everything you want in plain C.  Or python.  Or C++ with a mysql back-end (wait, genjix is already doing that one...)
 497 2011-11-04 15:02:13 <wumpus> I still thing a -next branch for radical work is a good idea
 498 2011-11-04 15:02:20 <gavinandresen> wumpus: go for it
 499 2011-11-04 15:02:22 Daniel0108 has joined
 500 2011-11-04 15:02:25 <[eval]> and bitcoinjs is already doing some of it in javascript too :P
 501 2011-11-04 15:02:26 <sipa> wumpus: agree
 502 2011-11-04 15:02:40 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: it probably would have taken ~1 month if I had started in the summer when I had time to dedicate to it...
 503 2011-11-04 15:02:52 <BlueMatt> anyway, Ive gotta go to class, Ill get on when I get there (comp sci, not like ive got anything better to do but irc in there...)
 504 2011-11-04 15:02:59 <wumpus> because I really wouldn't want to break the current version / stability, but it's good to focus on the longer run as well
 505 2011-11-04 15:03:01 <wumpus> gavinandresen: ok
 506 2011-11-04 15:03:40 <sipa> BlueMatt: get yourself a bouncer or an irc client running remotely :)
 507 2011-11-04 15:03:51 <wumpus> but yes I think we can safely say the priority now is speeding up startup time
 508 2011-11-04 15:03:57 ej__ has joined
 509 2011-11-04 15:04:09 <sipa> reworking the ip address handling is part of that
 510 2011-11-04 15:04:22 <sipa> but obviosuly the largest part is loading of the block chain
 511 2011-11-04 15:04:43 <wumpus> it spends a lot of time in ip address handling?!
 512 2011-11-04 15:04:47 <[eval]> but if you can run the p2p/blockchain part of it as a service/daemon and run the wallet in the UI, startup times are virtually 0
 513 2011-11-04 15:04:58 <wumpus> or do you mean the hangs when DNS-seeding?
 514 2011-11-04 15:05:10 <[eval]> (again, split)
 515 2011-11-04 15:05:11 iocor has joined
 516 2011-11-04 15:05:16 <sipa> wumpus: loading address can take some time (as in: seconds), where it shouldn't
 517 2011-11-04 15:05:23 <sipa> but that isn't the largest problem
 518 2011-11-04 15:05:24 <wumpus> [eval]: how's that? it'll still need to load everything and connect before you can do anything useful
 519 2011-11-04 15:05:39 <wumpus> [eval]: sure, it can show the UI before the loading is finished, but that doesn't help :)
 520 2011-11-04 15:06:00 <sipa> wumpus: i suppose he means that if you start the UI while the daemon was already running, things should go fast
 521 2011-11-04 15:06:07 <wumpus> sipa: yeah I really think we need to profile to make sure we focus on the right areas
 522 2011-11-04 15:06:08 <[eval]> wumpus: assuming the UI is started after the daemon/service has updated its copy of the chain
 523 2011-11-04 15:06:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: tens of seconds. On a fast machine with an SSD.
 524 2011-11-04 15:06:29 <[eval]> yes, sipa
 525 2011-11-04 15:06:42 <wumpus> sipa: ah, right, you want the daemon to be always running.. yeah... that'd be possible
 526 2011-11-04 15:07:08 <wumpus> a bit like utorrent etc
 527 2011-11-04 15:07:08 <gavinandresen> I hate things that always run on my machine....
 528 2011-11-04 15:07:15 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 529 2011-11-04 15:07:16 ej_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 530 2011-11-04 15:07:18 <wumpus> me too, but it'd be better for the network :P
 531 2011-11-04 15:07:24 <[eval]> i run tor as a relay all the time, and bitcoind too
 532 2011-11-04 15:07:27 <gavinandresen> Not unless you're mining
 533 2011-11-04 15:07:30 <[eval]> to help both networks
 534 2011-11-04 15:07:41 m00p has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 535 2011-11-04 15:07:43 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: you shouldn't need to know that it's always running.
 536 2011-11-04 15:07:48 <wumpus> when I ran a tor node all kinds of sites started to ban me :-(
 537 2011-11-04 15:07:59 <gavinandresen> I hate things that always run on my machine without telling me even more....
 538 2011-11-04 15:08:05 <wumpus> gmaxwell: of course you need to know!
 539 2011-11-04 15:08:15 <wumpus> please don't do things on my machine without me knowing :/
 540 2011-11-04 15:08:24 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I'm not suggesting being sneaky! I mean if its not obnoxious then you shouldn't even notice.
 541 2011-11-04 15:08:26 <[eval]> wumpus: i don't run an exit node, just a relay into tor... thinking about setting up a tor2web.org proxy too
 542 2011-11-04 15:08:35 <wumpus> [eval]: I didn't run an exit node either!
 543 2011-11-04 15:08:45 <[eval]> oh man.. i haven't been banned from anything yet lol
 544 2011-11-04 15:08:54 AStove has joined
 545 2011-11-04 15:09:06 <gmaxwell> wumpus: there are some broken sites, but I can think of only two incidents in many years of running tor where that has hit me.
 546 2011-11-04 15:09:09 <wumpus> it happens this way: tor publishes list of relays, some stupid sites take it over and directly put it into their backlist
 547 2011-11-04 15:09:41 <gmaxwell> wumpus: provided nice exit filtered feeds to address that. Including an fairly nice DNS query option.
 548 2011-11-04 15:10:07 <[eval]> sorry, didn't mean to derail convo.
 549 2011-11-04 15:10:10 BlueMatt has joined
 550 2011-11-04 15:10:11 <wumpus> hehe
 551 2011-11-04 15:10:50 <gmaxwell> In any case, if you don't want bitcoin always running, you almost certantly don't want a full node... otherwise the time it takes to sync back up when you do start it is bad for usability.
 552 2011-11-04 15:10:54 <wumpus> anyway, myself I only start bitcoin when I'm using it, I wouldn't be opposed to it running in the background but I wouldn't want to push that to users by default
 553 2011-11-04 15:11:55 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: re: "so you plan to spend a month working on a nice split, it actually takes six, and five months in somebody else releases a really nice open-source implementation..." so in other words lets not bother updating the satoshi client and just let other clients come out that are better that can take over...
 554 2011-11-04 15:11:57 m00p has joined
 555 2011-11-04 15:11:59 <[eval]> you could also run the "full node" on something like a freedombox/sheevaplug/dvr/something that's on all the time and have all the clients in your house (or in your business) connecting to it as separate wallets
 556 2011-11-04 15:12:01 <BlueMatt> so why are we doing any work?
 557 2011-11-04 15:12:14 <[eval]> there's no reason you should have multiple copies of the blockchain to service multiple wallets
 558 2011-11-04 15:12:17 <gmaxwell> ..and we get a nice trickel of people in IRC (which automatically means they some of the more technically competent ones) who are concerned that 10 seconds after starting a node which has been off for a week they still don't see a payment made to them 10 minutes ago.
 559 2011-11-04 15:12:32 <wumpus> [eval]: agreed, that'd be nice
 560 2011-11-04 15:12:43 <gmaxwell> ... and another slow flow of people who get screwed up because they close bitcoin RIGHT after issuing a transaction and then it doesn't actually make it out onto the network.
 561 2011-11-04 15:12:48 <wumpus> you could also have a passive client to just watch addresses 
 562 2011-11-04 15:12:57 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: the alternative is to plan the Grand Redesign taking a year or two or three, and implement it in incremental changes.
 563 2011-11-04 15:12:57 <wumpus> without "wallet"
 564 2011-11-04 15:12:59 <helo> just run a full node on bitcoin.org and let everybody use it! ;)
 565 2011-11-04 15:13:00 <[eval]> wumpus: yes
 566 2011-11-04 15:13:19 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: which is what "the split" is...
 567 2011-11-04 15:13:23 <BlueMatt> anyway, its irrelevant now...
 568 2011-11-04 15:13:30 <[eval]> helo: bccapi does something like that but i don't want to trust a third party's full node :P
 569 2011-11-04 15:13:44 <wumpus> let's just try to make the design somewhat better with every change that we make :P
 570 2011-11-04 15:13:47 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ... so you work on things that actually matter instead of "stuff that will make it easier to do stuff that I want to do.... eventually...."
 571 2011-11-04 15:13:55 <gavinandresen> wumpus: amen
 572 2011-11-04 15:13:57 <wumpus> and not accept patches that make the design worse
 573 2011-11-04 15:14:02 <wumpus> (like adding another ToHex function :p)
 574 2011-11-04 15:14:04 <gmaxwell> It's pretty obnoxious that I have to run four full nodes at home just to keep four wallets online.
 575 2011-11-04 15:14:37 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, that's pretty crazy.. but running one full node in your home would make asingle point of failure
 576 2011-11-04 15:15:17 <[eval]> if it's at home, you can usually wait a few minutes to restart the node/redownload the blockchain... if it's a business, you can run redundant full nodes that can all still service multiple wallets
 577 2011-11-04 15:15:21 <sipa> helo: what about blockexplorer.com
 578 2011-11-04 15:15:25 <wumpus> true...
 579 2011-11-04 15:15:33 <gmaxwell> wumpus: So? I can start another one trivially if one fails.
 580 2011-11-04 15:15:36 <helo> it is probably inevitable that people will start using "public" nodes for usability... it's not much easier for the average user to run one full node and handle networking their other devices (other PCs, cell phone) to it, VS running full nodes on each device
 581 2011-11-04 15:15:53 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, but what about trust? what if it is subverted and told to lie?
 582 2011-11-04 15:16:15 <gmaxwell> wumpus: if someone can subvert the one node I'm running then they can surely subvert all of them.
 583 2011-11-04 15:16:23 <wumpus> the whole idea of it being P2P and asking multiple nodes is to prevent such attacks
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 585 2011-11-04 15:16:36 <wumpus> gmaxwell: why would that be? the attack doesn't have to have been through bitcoin itself
 586 2011-11-04 15:16:38 <[eval]> wumpus: but your wallet only asks its own node now
 587 2011-11-04 15:16:39 <gmaxwell> It's not like they have software diversity (nor would I want the maintance burden of diverse software even if I could get diverse software)
 588 2011-11-04 15:16:53 <[eval]> so if your node is subverted and told to lie, your wallet still lies to you
 589 2011-11-04 15:17:20 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's a point, but a weak one— and a seperated wallet could query multiple daemons.
 590 2011-11-04 15:17:31 * sipa will probably have really time for bitcoin after december 6th
 591 2011-11-04 15:17:44 <wumpus> hey it's not that I'm against a split
 592 2011-11-04 15:18:12 <wumpus> I'm a bit scared of less knowledgable users setting some wallet server, which gets owned a la mybitcoin
 593 2011-11-04 15:18:34 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I'd be a lot more inclined to have bitcoind software diversity if I could just have two and they serviced four wallets. Perhaps I'd also use one run by someone else.
 594 2011-11-04 15:18:48 <gmaxwell> wumpus: but they'll already do that with the web— at least they could keep their private keys locally.
 595 2011-11-04 15:19:11 copumpkin has joined
 596 2011-11-04 15:19:21 <wumpus> that's true... but it means the wallet<->blockchain protocol needs to be secure
 597 2011-11-04 15:19:32 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yup. And authenticated.
 598 2011-11-04 15:19:34 <wumpus> if it's just localhost it's easier
 599 2011-11-04 15:19:37 <wumpus> right...
 600 2011-11-04 15:20:03 <wumpus> it would have to be anyway I guess
 601 2011-11-04 15:20:35 <sipa> it's quite possible to have a wallet<->node protocol just for internal use, where there is one node running, and several wallets connect to it
 602 2011-11-04 15:20:40 <sipa> all within one trusted network
 603 2011-11-04 15:21:09 <sipa> clearly having the ability to secure it makes it more useful
 604 2011-11-04 15:21:45 <wumpus> not that authentication+encryption is that much of a deal, we already link against openssl anyway :)
 605 2011-11-04 15:23:22 <wumpus> https+jsonrpc would be most straightforward, though maybe a bidirectional protocol would be better, as back-calls with jsonrpc means that the client has to listen for connections as well (and have a port open)
 606 2011-11-04 15:24:10 <BlueMatt> meh, protocol for splitting the code into multiple programs comes after we can split the code to being with...
 607 2011-11-04 15:24:29 <wumpus> it doesn't hurt to think about it
 608 2011-11-04 15:24:43 <BlueMatt> also, its been thought about: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
 609 2011-11-04 15:24:44 <AlexWaters1> BlueMatt: do you think it would be possible for me to create qt builds of test branches today?
 610 2011-11-04 15:24:48 <BlueMatt> (well mostly by luke...)
 611 2011-11-04 15:25:04 <BlueMatt> AlexWaters1: yea, let me go update those build scipts...
 612 2011-11-04 15:25:04 <AlexWaters1> *for windows x64
 613 2011-11-04 15:25:09 <BlueMatt> no
 614 2011-11-04 15:25:20 <BlueMatt> since when do we do win64 builds?
 615 2011-11-04 15:25:23 <wumpus> the w32 build works fine on w64 right?
 616 2011-11-04 15:25:25 <BlueMatt> all our builds have always been win32
 617 2011-11-04 15:25:28 <BlueMatt> yea
 618 2011-11-04 15:25:30 <AlexWaters1> wumpus: it should
 619 2011-11-04 15:25:45 <wumpus> heck I run the 32 bit windows bitcoin.exe on wine on a 64 bit linux machine
 620 2011-11-04 15:26:37 <imsaguy2> w32 will run fine on w64
 621 2011-11-04 15:26:43 <imsaguy2> that is by design
 622 2011-11-04 15:26:56 <wumpus> BlueMatt: that page is very incomplete
 623 2011-11-04 15:27:08 <AlexWaters1> BlueMatt: x86 is fine, so long as it works on x65windows7
 624 2011-11-04 15:27:14 <AlexWaters1> x64*
 625 2011-11-04 15:27:34 <BlueMatt> wumpus: I never said I supported it, I just said that discussion of that topic has happened several times...
 626 2011-11-04 15:27:42 <BlueMatt> (as with all things in bitcoin it seems)
 627 2011-11-04 15:27:55 <luke-jr> that's because w64 is 32-bit too :p
 628 2011-11-04 15:28:01 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt AlexWaters1 : I'm gitian-building 0.5.0rc2 now   (aside to BlueMatt:  my 'had to sudo bin/gbuild' problem was "you installed qemu but then didn't logout and log back in again to become part of the libvirtd group")
 629 2011-11-04 15:28:06 rdponticelli_ has joined
 630 2011-11-04 15:28:08 <wumpus> BlueMatt: I don't really like discussion that much, I much rather just see that someone implements it :-)
 631 2011-11-04 15:28:18 <luke-jr> wumpus: 32-bit WINE doesn't run on non-32-bit Linux ;)
 632 2011-11-04 15:28:31 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 633 2011-11-04 15:28:31 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: m, yea but it still shouldnt be touching /dev/kmem, maybe its touching something else?
 634 2011-11-04 15:28:35 <wumpus> luke-jr: huh then why does it work for me
 635 2011-11-04 15:28:36 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: anyway, doesnt matter
 636 2011-11-04 15:28:40 <luke-jr> wumpus: your OS is 32-bit
 637 2011-11-04 15:28:49 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'd misremembered, it was /dev/kvm
 638 2011-11-04 15:28:56 <AlexWaters1> gavinandresen: I am jealous - haha. I'm curious as to how I could do the same
 639 2011-11-04 15:28:56 <luke-jr> lol
 640 2011-11-04 15:28:57 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: mmm, makes much more sense
 641 2011-11-04 15:29:01 <wumpus> luke-jr: no, it's not
 642 2011-11-04 15:29:03 slush has joined
 643 2011-11-04 15:29:09 <wumpus> luke-jr: $ ldd /bin/bash 
 644 2011-11-04 15:29:09 <wumpus> 	linux-vdso.so.1 =>  (0x00007fffcf3ff000)
 645 2011-11-04 15:29:11 slush has quit (Changing host)
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 647 2011-11-04 15:29:16 <luke-jr> wumpus: it's probably hybrid: both 32-bit and 64-bit
 648 2011-11-04 15:29:19 <gavinandresen> AlexWaters1: do you have a 64-bit machine with Vt-x-capable hardware?
 649 2011-11-04 15:29:24 <luke-jr> wumpus: sure, maybe your BASH is 64-bit ;)
 650 2011-11-04 15:29:32 <AlexWaters1> gavinandresen: yes
 651 2011-11-04 15:29:36 rdponticelli_ has quit (Client Quit)
 652 2011-11-04 15:29:36 <luke-jr> AlexWaters1: it requires Ruby
 653 2011-11-04 15:29:38 <BlueMatt> wumpus: oh, I agree, I was just saying discussions like this happen all the time, and they always end with "ok, so who wants to implement this?" followed by silence...
 654 2011-11-04 15:29:39 <wumpus> you can't run 64 bit executables on a 32 bit os can you?
 655 2011-11-04 15:29:47 <luke-jr> wumpus: you can, if the OS is also 64-bit
 656 2011-11-04 15:29:55 <luke-jr> wumpus: I suspect yours is BOTH 32-bit and 64-bit
 657 2011-11-04 15:30:19 <gavinandresen> AlexWaters1: I wrote up what I did to get it working in contrib/gitian-descriptors/README
 658 2011-11-04 15:30:21 <wumpus> BlueMatt: well the problem is that we can never agree on anything
 659 2011-11-04 15:30:54 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 660 2011-11-04 15:30:55 <luke-jr> Bluebeard vs Alexander the Great vs Lancelot: who wins?
 661 2011-11-04 15:31:05 <wumpus> BlueMatt: so discussions always either end up nowhere, or in some compromise that no one wants to implement :)
 662 2011-11-04 15:31:09 <AlexWaters1> gavinandresen: ok thank you. will it work just as well with amd-v?
 663 2011-11-04 15:31:14 <BlueMatt> wumpus: no one ever agrees when discussing, but when someone actually implements it, people always agree because its better than nothing, and no one is going to reimplement what they discussed because its too much effort
 664 2011-11-04 15:31:16 <AlexWaters1> i would think so...
 665 2011-11-04 15:31:30 <wumpus> BlueMatt: yes that's true :) 
 666 2011-11-04 15:31:31 <BlueMatt> AlexWaters1: yes
 667 2011-11-04 15:33:05 <wumpus> AlexWaters1: yes it does, I'm using it with AMD
 668 2011-11-04 15:33:09 <gavinandresen> AlexWaters1: theoretically....   it'll even work if you don't have virtualization hardware, it will just take FOREVER to compile what you need.
 669 2011-11-04 15:33:27 <wumpus> luke-jr: yes, 32 bit libraries/support is also installed, that comes by default in Ubuntu afaik
 670 2011-11-04 15:33:45 <gavinandresen> AlexWaters1: Also see the doc/release-process.txt document for getting windows gitian builds going, you have to fetch/build more stuff....
 671 2011-11-04 15:34:02 <AlexWaters1> gavinandresen: I will test it with my turing machine then
 672 2011-11-04 15:34:19 <gavinandresen> AlexWaters1: good idea.
 673 2011-11-04 15:34:24 <luke-jr> where is 0.5.0rc2?
 674 2011-11-04 15:34:48 <BlueMatt> AlexWaters1: can you upload a current branch from master to the testing branch?
 675 2011-11-04 15:34:48 <AlexWaters1> gavinandresen: ok - from how it looks, this looks simple enough for even me. thank you for the tidy write-up
 676 2011-11-04 15:34:51 <gavinandresen> software releases are such an abstract notion, "where" is a good question...
 677 2011-11-04 15:35:02 <AlexWaters1> BlueMatt: sure
 678 2011-11-04 15:35:03 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I just tagged 0.5.0rc2
 679 2011-11-04 15:35:11 <wumpus> a very good question, we should geo-tag our releases :p
 680 2011-11-04 15:35:36 <luke-jr> I just pulled and didn't get it :x
 681 2011-11-04 15:35:41 <luke-jr> did you push?
 682 2011-11-04 15:36:01 <gavinandresen> AlexWaters1: I will add another Sanity Check:  groups  # should say you are in the libvirtd  group
 683 2011-11-04 15:36:11 <luke-jr> pulled again, no tag
 684 2011-11-04 15:36:15 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: push the tag!
 685 2011-11-04 15:36:35 <wumpus> hey I'm not in the libvirtd group
 686 2011-11-04 15:36:36 b4epoche_ has joined
 687 2011-11-04 15:37:15 <BlueMatt> neither am I and it works fine...
 688 2011-11-04 15:37:26 <gavinandresen> To git@github.com:bitcoin/bitcoin.git
 689 2011-11-04 15:37:26 <gavinandresen>  * [new tag]         v0.5.0rc2 -> v0.5.0rc2
 690 2011-11-04 15:37:42 <BlueMatt> also, my /dev/kvm is owned by kvm not libvirtd
 691 2011-11-04 15:38:08 <wumpus> mine is also owned by kvm, but I'm also not in that group
 692 2011-11-04 15:38:09 b4epoche_ has quit (Client Quit)
 693 2011-11-04 15:38:23 <wumpus> sometimes it's a wonder that things work at all :-)
 694 2011-11-04 15:38:25 <gavinandresen> Huh:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/Installation#Add_Users_to_Groups
 695 2011-11-04 15:38:32 * luke-jr blames GitHub then
 696 2011-11-04 15:38:41 <BlueMatt> wumpus: yep
 697 2011-11-04 15:39:14 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tags   ... says it is there...
 698 2011-11-04 15:39:16 <BlueMatt> I dont even have a libvirtd group on my system...
 699 2011-11-04 15:39:18 <wumpus> maybe it's not using virtualization, though I haven't noticed build being slow
 700 2011-11-04 15:39:40 <BlueMatt> I definitely am...
 701 2011-11-04 15:39:52 <wumpus> how to check?
 702 2011-11-04 15:39:58 <luke-jr> wtf, pull doesn't get tags automatically anymore?
 703 2011-11-04 15:40:16 <BlueMatt> wumpus: if it runs in reasonable time you are (Ive run it non-kvm before and it takes 12+hours)
 704 2011-11-04 15:40:37 <wumpus> BlueMatt: ok in that case I'm definitely using it, I've build qt zillions of times in a day
 705 2011-11-04 15:41:27 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 706 2011-11-04 15:42:46 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: erm, why is v0.5.0rc2 not part of master? :|
 707 2011-11-04 15:43:08 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: huh what???
 708 2011-11-04 15:43:19 <wumpus> since when are tags part of a branch?
 709 2011-11-04 15:43:25 AStove has quit ()
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 711 2011-11-04 15:43:43 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: you tagged f6aacbf as v0.5.0rc2, but that commit is not in the master branch
 712 2011-11-04 15:43:49 wasabi2 has joined
 713 2011-11-04 15:43:55 <wumpus> ahh
 714 2011-11-04 15:43:59 da2ce7 has joined
 715 2011-11-04 15:44:35 <wumpus> in that case, 'where' was a good question
 716 2011-11-04 15:44:53 <gavinandresen> ummm..........
 717 2011-11-04 15:45:37 AlexWaters1 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 718 2011-11-04 15:45:53 <gavinandresen> because I forgot to pull before I pushed....
 719 2011-11-04 15:45:56 wasabi1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 720 2011-11-04 15:46:10 <luke-jr> >_<
 721 2011-11-04 15:46:20 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rab15eba / contrib/gitian-descriptors/qt-win32.yml : Merge branch 'master' of github.com:bitcoin/bitcoin - http://git.io/yoF1Ww
 722 2011-11-04 15:46:21 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rf6aacbf / (6 files in 6 dirs): Mac releases use macdeployqtplus - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/f6aacbfe6d3d73dd83601a396c45d130add60313
 723 2011-11-04 15:46:36 AlexWaters has joined
 724 2011-11-04 15:47:03 <gavinandresen> ok, so I need to re-tag... anybody know cleanest way of deleting a tag at github?  Can I just push --tags?
 725 2011-11-04 15:47:31 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: impossible to delete tags
 726 2011-11-04 15:47:53 <luke-jr> even if you force it onto github, everyone who pulled it already will refuse it
 727 2011-11-04 15:48:05 <BlueMatt> meh, just force it
 728 2011-11-04 15:48:11 <BlueMatt> there are like 5 people here who pulled in that time
 729 2011-11-04 15:48:13 <wumpus> well it's just a few minutes
 730 2011-11-04 15:48:13 <BlueMatt> and they are all here
 731 2011-11-04 15:48:18 <gavinandresen> git tag -d v0.5.0rc2 ....
 732 2011-11-04 15:48:27 <wumpus> agreed BlueMatt
 733 2011-11-04 15:48:42 <AlexWaters> BlueMatt: ok my testing repo should be up to date now
 734 2011-11-04 15:48:55 <BlueMatt> AlexWaters: oops, I already started a build off of it...
 735 2011-11-04 15:48:56 <luke-jr> better to use rc3 :p
 736 2011-11-04 15:49:00 <luke-jr> there's no limit to rcs
 737 2011-11-04 15:49:17 <wumpus> rc2.1 :P lol
 738 2011-11-04 15:49:21 plutonic_ has joined
 739 2011-11-04 15:49:22 <BlueMatt> AlexWaters: oh well, you can grab a bitcoin-qt.exe after the build is done and you start another one
 740 2011-11-04 15:49:28 <BlueMatt> AlexWaters:
 741 2011-11-04 15:49:29 <AlexWaters> BlueMatt: i did it a few minutes ago - so maybe it will be the current
 742 2011-11-04 15:49:31 <BlueMatt> http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin-Testing-Build/
 743 2011-11-04 15:49:34 m00p has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 744 2011-11-04 15:49:37 <AlexWaters> ok cool
 745 2011-11-04 15:49:39 <BlueMatt> AlexWaters: probably not...
 746 2011-11-04 15:49:51 <BlueMatt> just go to workspace and look for the exe (IIRC)
 747 2011-11-04 15:49:56 <BlueMatt> otherwise Ive g2g, send me an email
 748 2011-11-04 15:50:00 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 749 2011-11-04 15:50:27 <gavinandresen> Who says we can never agree about anything?   To git@github.com:bitcoin/bitcoin.git
 750 2011-11-04 15:50:28 btc_buddy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 751 2011-11-04 15:50:28 <gavinandresen>    2ec1450..9f53a52  v0.5.0rc2 -> v0.5.0rc2
 752 2011-11-04 15:51:09 <AlexWaters> haha
 753 2011-11-04 15:51:43 plutonic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 755 2011-11-04 15:51:54 <wumpus> hehe :D
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 758 2011-11-04 15:54:56 <luke-jr> anyhow, v0.4.1rc2 pushed to stable
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 767 2011-11-04 16:19:33 <invisiblemonk> oh god, 4chon facepalm. again.
 768 2011-11-04 16:22:37 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #83: FAILURE in 31 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/83/
 769 2011-11-04 16:22:38 <BlueMattBot> gavinandresen: Mac releases use macdeployqtplus
 770 2011-11-04 16:23:49 <gavinandresen> shut up BlueMattBot, that is NOT my fault.
 771 2011-11-04 16:29:55 <copumpkin> it should write EPIC FAIL
 772 2011-11-04 16:30:01 <copumpkin> failure is an archaic term these days
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 795 2011-11-04 17:34:34 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * rf188b516c8dc / (4 files in 3 dirs): string_repr() -> pretty()
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 797 2011-11-04 17:37:04 <gmaxwell> From the forum:
 798 2011-11-04 17:37:05 <gmaxwell> Got this today from my firewall when I started client 0.4.0 on OS X:
 799 2011-11-04 17:37:05 <gmaxwell> "Bitcoin wants to connect to store.esellerate.net on TCP port 443 (https)"
 800 2011-11-04 17:37:09 <gmaxwell> ^ uuuuhhh
 801 2011-11-04 17:37:42 <UukGoblin> https?
 802 2011-11-04 17:38:05 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
 803 2011-11-04 17:38:26 <ciscoftw> ummm, any reason why i woulnt be able to locate/find the "bitcoin.conf" file? i can run bitcoin/bitcoind services... the "/.bitcoin" directory exists but there's no config file, i suppose i could just add one -but this seems strange?
 804 2011-11-04 17:39:09 <gmaxwell> ciscoftw: there isn't one by default, you can create one.
 805 2011-11-04 17:39:17 <UukGoblin> ciscoftw, it should be ~/.bitcoin, not /.bitcoin
 806 2011-11-04 17:39:37 <UukGoblin> the "~" expands to your home directory
 807 2011-11-04 17:39:47 <ciscoftw> i unpacked to /root/
 808 2011-11-04 17:40:04 <gmaxwell> Running random daemons as root is generally pretty inadvisable.
 809 2011-11-04 17:40:05 <UukGoblin> running bitcoin as root is soooo asking for trouble
 810 2011-11-04 17:40:11 <ciscoftw> but regardless if one isnt there by defalut thats why i cant find it via locate
 811 2011-11-04 17:40:20 <ciscoftw> no really (running as root)
 812 2011-11-04 17:40:25 <ciscoftw> *not
 813 2011-11-04 17:41:07 <UukGoblin> bitcoin is not mature software yet, possibilities for bugs are endless
 814 2011-11-04 17:41:24 <UukGoblin> running it as root will potentially open your computer to serious attacks
 815 2011-11-04 17:41:36 <gmaxwell> E.g. what happens if there is a some bug coded in the code that deletes the db logs and it manages to delete a chunk of your file system?
 816 2011-11-04 17:41:56 <ciscoftw> :( i suppose i would agree with that
 817 2011-11-04 17:42:05 <gmaxwell> Yes, bugs are bad— but at least if it does not run as root the system will still be operable.
 818 2011-11-04 17:42:26 <ciscoftw> no, i digress
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 820 2011-11-04 17:43:13 <ciscoftw> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin, indicates that a config file is created by default, your sure that one shouldnt be there?
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 824 2011-11-04 17:43:35 <gmaxwell> ciscoftw: I'm not sure, but if you're not finding it then— thats a pretty strong indicator.
 825 2011-11-04 17:43:36 <Eliel> ciscoftw: in my experience it's not created automatically.
 826 2011-11-04 17:43:50 <gmaxwell> "The configuration file is not automatically created; you can create it using your favorite plain-text editor."
 827 2011-11-04 17:43:51 <ciscoftw> via windows it is
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 829 2011-11-04 17:44:16 <gmaxwell> ciscoftw: it says explicitly that its not created by default (in the text I quoted), where does it say it is?
 830 2011-11-04 17:44:22 <ciscoftw> many thanx gmaxwell/Eliel
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 835 2011-11-04 17:44:45 <gmaxwell> omg. midnight magic is in floodoff mode again!
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 838 2011-11-04 17:45:12 <ciscoftw> apprently i cant read all that well :) ...thanx for info guys
 839 2011-11-04 17:45:16 <gmaxwell> No problem.
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 852 2011-11-04 17:51:04 <Eliel> would make configuring bitcoin much nicer if it did pre-generate a bitcoin.conf with commented out examples and explanations on what they do.
 853 2011-11-04 17:52:36 <UukGoblin> it could even generate a password at random
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 856 2011-11-04 17:54:17 <gavinandresen> ... as long as it didn't 'help' me when I mis-typed -datadir=foo ...    in that case I'd much rather get a "missing foo/.bitcoin.conf"
 857 2011-11-04 17:54:25 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * rad20fe151b47 / (Makefile src/transaction.cpp tests/script-test.cpp): Shared code between serialiser and hash_transaction.
 858 2011-11-04 17:54:48 midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 859 2011-11-04 17:55:05 <UukGoblin> true
 860 2011-11-04 17:55:36 <gavinandresen> Anybody willing to help sanity test:   https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.5.0/test/
 861 2011-11-04 17:55:40 <UukGoblin> but putting random stuff in ~/.appname is quite a standard practice by a lot of programs
 862 2011-11-04 17:55:52 <gavinandresen> ... rc2 binaries built with gitian
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 864 2011-11-04 17:59:31 <midnightmagic> hrm..
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 867 2011-11-04 18:04:24 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * rf3987a4e2486 / (15 files in 8 dirs): s/^ :/ :/ as per std style. means that constructor initialiser list won't align with constructor parameters. improves readability.
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 908 2011-11-04 18:50:59 <eueueu> Hi, I tried to run bitcoin 05 rc2 on debian 64 and got this error: /home/leonardo/Desktop/bitcoin-0.5.0rc2-linux/bin/64/bitcoin-qt: error while loading shared libraries: libminiupnpc.so.8: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
 909 2011-11-04 18:51:05 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
 910 2011-11-04 18:51:06 <eueueu> the app do not run
 911 2011-11-04 18:51:24 ThomasV has joined
 912 2011-11-04 18:51:30 <eueueu> Is it a known problem? hot to fix it?
 913 2011-11-04 18:51:45 <eueueu> It's a bitcoin bug or any problem on my ystem?
 914 2011-11-04 18:51:54 AlexWaters has joined
 915 2011-11-04 18:52:22 <[eval]> try `sudo apt-get install libminiupnpc8` and see if that works?
 916 2011-11-04 18:53:00 <eueueu> ok, will see
 917 2011-11-04 18:54:23 <[eval]> i'm using graingert's PPA and it automatically downloaded that for me
 918 2011-11-04 18:54:37 <[eval]> (but i'm running ubuntu, not plain debian)
 919 2011-11-04 18:54:39 <eueueu> hum the package doesn't exist
 920 2011-11-04 18:54:42 <eueueu> on debian
 921 2011-11-04 18:56:23 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 922 2011-11-04 18:56:51 <eueueu> this package exist: libminiupnpc5
 923 2011-11-04 18:56:56 <[eval]> looks like debian is on 5... yeah.
 924 2011-11-04 18:57:08 <eueueu> I'll install so
 925 2011-11-04 18:58:23 <[eval]> i doubt 5 will work unless you rebuild from source with 5... and i have no idea if you can even build with 5
 926 2011-11-04 18:59:14 <eueueu> didn't work
 927 2011-11-04 18:59:57 <eueueu> Is it a problem with debian or next bitcoin version probably will fix it?
 928 2011-11-04 19:01:12 <[eval]> debian's libminiupnpc version is outdated... you can try installing the .deb for ubuntu
 929 2011-11-04 19:02:21 <eueueu> will be a hack
 930 2011-11-04 19:02:28 <[eval]> hrm... nm... it actually came from the PPA itself
 931 2011-11-04 19:03:15 <[eval]> https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin <--
 932 2011-11-04 19:03:23 <eueueu> will see
 933 2011-11-04 19:04:27 <[eval]> a better hack would be to just compile miniupnpc 8 from source
 934 2011-11-04 19:04:52 <[eval]> http://miniupnp.free.fr/files/
 935 2011-11-04 19:05:48 <eueueu> I don't have experience in compiling. I'm newbie. But when final version be released, what will happen to newbie users of debian that want to use bitcoin 0.5
 936 2011-11-04 19:08:18 <[eval]> hopefully a better distribution channel will be added for debian
 937 2011-11-04 19:08:43 <helo> is graingert "DA"?
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 939 2011-11-04 19:12:25 <helo> nope
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 955 2011-11-04 19:49:21 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r3e4ee498b0a6 / (4 files in 4 dirs): Safe deserializer. Throws end_of_stream if premature end of data_stream. Caught inside channel when deconstructing messages and signals the handler with error::bad_stream
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 957 2011-11-04 19:58:40 <eueue> Hi, I tried to run bitcoin 05 rc2 on debian 64 and got this error: /home/leonardo/Desktop/bitcoin-0.5.0rc2-linux/bin/64/bitcoin-qt: error while loading shared libraries: libminiupnpc.so.8: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
 958 2011-11-04 19:59:10 <eueue> Is it possible include this file on the bitcoin installation?
 959 2011-11-04 19:59:42 <eueue> debian doesn't have this version of miniupnpc
 960 2011-11-04 20:00:51 <gavinandresen> Sounds like bitcoin-qt.pro needs to be taught to link against libminiupnpc.a ....
 961 2011-11-04 20:01:42 <gmaxwell> Does _anything_ have that version? I thought we used a bleeding edge one. (I wouldn't know— I UPNP=  my makes)
 962 2011-11-04 20:02:50 PK has joined
 963 2011-11-04 20:04:48 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: no, sounds like whoever made the deb left out the dependency
 964 2011-11-04 20:05:03 <luke-jr> linking to .a is BAD, k?
 965 2011-11-04 20:05:13 <helo> i think he's using ubuntu's package on debian
 966 2011-11-04 20:05:27 <eueue> no
 967 2011-11-04 20:05:43 <helo> oh, mb
 968 2011-11-04 20:05:44 <luke-jr> eueue: do you have miniupnp installed?
 969 2011-11-04 20:05:45 <eueue> I'm using the tar and extracted the files
 970 2011-11-04 20:05:50 <eueue> to a folder
 971 2011-11-04 20:05:57 <luke-jr> …
 972 2011-11-04 20:06:00 <helo> ahhh heh
 973 2011-11-04 20:06:06 <eueue> yes but the version on debian is 5
 974 2011-11-04 20:06:13 <eueue> and bitcoin need 8
 975 2011-11-04 20:06:17 <luke-jr> i c
 976 2011-11-04 20:06:34 <luke-jr> right solution: use the debian package
 977 2011-11-04 20:06:40 <luke-jr> wrong solution: gavin can link to .a
 978 2011-11-04 20:07:21 <helo> if you want to use it from tar, you'll have to handle the dependencies manually
 979 2011-11-04 20:07:23 <luke-jr> insane solution that will probably not work: LD_PRELOAD=/path/to/libminiupnpc.whatever ./bitcoin-qt
 980 2011-11-04 20:07:40 <eueue> http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/libminiupnpc5
 981 2011-11-04 20:07:46 <helo> do you use miniupnp for anything?
 982 2011-11-04 20:07:54 <eueue> need to be 8 that is not even on sid
 983 2011-11-04 20:08:14 <eueue> no, just installed to see if bitcoin works
 984 2011-11-04 20:08:15 ej_ has joined
 985 2011-11-04 20:08:24 <eueue> I'm newbie
 986 2011-11-04 20:09:01 <helo> you can uninstall it and download/install miniupnp8 from source... although i guess you may get into dependency hell if it requires newer version of other things in debian packages
 987 2011-11-04 20:09:27 <eueue> hum
 988 2011-11-04 20:09:54 <eueue> will just wait so, as appear not have a simple solution
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 990 2011-11-04 20:11:21 <helo> "use the debian package"
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 997 2011-11-04 20:29:24 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Chris Moore master * r2989b46 / (src/qt/bitcoin.qrc src/qt/locale/bitcoin_en.ts): Add English translation to fix plural(s). - http://git.io/PhQY6g
 998 2011-11-04 20:29:25 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r81a28d7 / (src/qt/bitcoin.qrc src/qt/locale/bitcoin_en.ts):
 999 2011-11-04 20:29:25 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Merge pull request #606 from dooglus/add-english-translation
1000 2011-11-04 20:29:25 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Add English translation to fix plural(s). - http://git.io/HKG0PA
1001 2011-11-04 20:40:01 genjix has joined
1002 2011-11-04 20:40:15 <genjix> nanotube: here?
1003 2011-11-04 20:40:24 <nanotube> genjix: o/
1004 2011-11-04 20:40:30 <PK> hi genjix :)
1005 2011-11-04 20:40:41 <PK> long time no see
1006 2011-11-04 20:41:17 <genjix> PK: hey, did we used to work on crystalspace together?
1007 2011-11-04 20:41:21 <genjix> wasup :)
1008 2011-11-04 20:41:34 <PK> yea, we met in Aachen, iirc
1009 2011-11-04 20:41:59 <genjix> i remember.
1010 2011-11-04 20:42:06 <genjix> are you coming to the bitcoin prague conference?
1011 2011-11-04 20:42:18 <genjix> the one on bitcoin.org
1012 2011-11-04 20:42:19 <PK> I didn't know there is one, when?
1013 2011-11-04 20:42:28 <cocktopus> *facepalm*
1014 2011-11-04 20:42:29 <genjix> http://conference.bitgroups.org/
1015 2011-11-04 20:43:55 <abragin> crystalspace? are you its developer?
1016 2011-11-04 20:44:11 <abragin> I remember crystal space from a decade ago at the very least
1017 2011-11-04 20:44:15 <PK> 25th november is too short term, sorry. I'm already booked on that date.
1018 2011-11-04 20:44:22 RobinPKR has joined
1019 2011-11-04 20:44:50 <PK> Otherwise I would have loved to join.
1020 2011-11-04 20:45:24 <PK> abragin: it's been ages since I last wrote anything for crystalspace :(
1021 2011-11-04 20:45:32 <genjix> abragin: yeah we were.
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1026 2011-11-04 20:49:16 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the .so deps on the linux build is just that static wasnt specified when the build defaults were changed
1027 2011-11-04 20:49:53 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: so it is an easy fix?
1028 2011-11-04 20:50:46 <genjix> PK: you still in switzerland btw?
1029 2011-11-04 20:50:51 <PK> genjix: yes
1030 2011-11-04 20:51:13 <genjix> there's quite a few people in switzerland and regular meetings for bitcoin
1031 2011-11-04 20:51:27 <abragin> cool, nice to meet you then ;)
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1033 2011-11-04 20:51:45 <genjix> thx :)
1034 2011-11-04 20:52:19 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I removed the linux.tar.gz from the 0.5.0/test directory on SourceForge, sounds like we'll spin a rc3 as soon as the Linux and Mac deployment issues are fixed...
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1036 2011-11-04 20:52:28 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, it should be
1037 2011-11-04 20:52:29 <PK> genjix: really?
1038 2011-11-04 20:52:40 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #84: STILL FAILING in 21 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/84/
1039 2011-11-04 20:52:41 <BlueMattBot> dooglus: Add English translation to fix plural(s).
1040 2011-11-04 20:52:48 <BlueMatt> arg, still didnt fix that...
1041 2011-11-04 20:52:54 <genjix> PK: yeah justmoon and TD are both from bern
1042 2011-11-04 20:53:05 <PK> I work in Bern.
1043 2011-11-04 20:53:28 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: are the deps not also there on linux bitcoind?
1044 2011-11-04 20:53:48 <genjix> PK: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6725.0
1045 2011-11-04 20:53:49 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ldd -v bitcoind  looks fine
1046 2011-11-04 20:53:51 <PK> we should almost organize some bitcoin party in Bern, maybe on the Bundesplatz ^^
1047 2011-11-04 20:54:06 <genjix> no idea what that is :)
1048 2011-11-04 20:55:09 <PK> Bundesplatz = ... think of the yard of the Whitehouse in the USA, just open to the public.
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1050 2011-11-04 20:55:46 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: (I just checked the 64-bit bitcoin-qt/bitcoind, though; I assume 32-bit is the same, ldd on my 64-bit box claims they are not a dynamic executable)
1051 2011-11-04 20:56:03 <genjix> if you're ever in amsterdam you should hit up caedes. he has a big group of people and a house there
1052 2011-11-04 20:56:03 <BlueMatt> yea, it should be
1053 2011-11-04 20:56:06 <PK> http://www.g26.ch/abb_bern_bundesplatz_05.jpg
1054 2011-11-04 20:56:39 <genjix> also we have a chan (little quieter than this one) if you wanna lurk #bitcoinconsultancy
1055 2011-11-04 20:57:11 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: it looks like there is no dynamic/static option in bitcoin-qt.pro
1056 2011-11-04 20:57:12 <PK> genjix: I'll probably meet with sueastside and a few others in nederlands in January.
1057 2011-11-04 20:57:33 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: someone just needs to add the necessary link flags and some ifdef STATIC's
1058 2011-11-04 20:57:43 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: mmm.... someone....
1059 2011-11-04 20:58:09 <BlueMatt> got a bit or work to do...Ill write it if noone has done it in like the next hour...
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1062 2011-11-04 20:59:16 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: cool, no big hurry, I'm not going to rebuild until the mac issues are fixed anyway
1063 2011-11-04 21:00:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: fair enough
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1122 2011-11-04 22:33:45 <snimpy> ;;bc,diffchange
1123 2011-11-04 22:33:46 <gribble> Estimated percent change in difficulty this period | -1.45411831205 % based on data since last change | -2.38833862958 % based on data for last three days
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1125 2011-11-04 22:34:01 <snimpy> ;;bc,estimate
1126 2011-11-04 22:34:02 <gribble> 1185962.16613040
1127 2011-11-04 22:34:22 <snimpy>  ;;bc,nethash
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