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103 2011-11-05 03:31:49 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I have invented the ultimate audio codec
104 2011-11-05 03:32:14 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it does a lot of cpu intensive shit, and then it outputs utter silence.
105 2011-11-05 03:32:54 <cocktopus> if you are going to use the cpu, then make it mine litecoins
106 2011-11-05 03:33:32 <Diablo-D3> cocktopus: you're an idiot.
107 2011-11-05 03:33:35 <cocktopus> :P
108 2011-11-05 03:34:00 <cocktopus> so is there some reason behind the cpu intensive shit then?
109 2011-11-05 03:34:14 <Diablo-D3> I screwed up the math somewhere
110 2011-11-05 03:34:32 <cocktopus> oh lol i thought you did it on purpose
111 2011-11-05 03:34:47 <Diablo-D3> no, I just thought it was hilarious
112 2011-11-05 03:35:01 <cocktopus> it is!
113 2011-11-05 03:35:04 <cocktopus> release it!
114 2011-11-05 03:35:10 <Diablo-D3> nein
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123 2011-11-05 03:50:11 <upb> yes
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132 2011-11-05 04:41:01 <luke-jr> [23:18:33] <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it does a lot of cpu intensive shit, and then it outputs utter silence. <-- sounds like Pulseaudio
133 2011-11-05 04:41:15 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: :D :D :D :D :D
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148 2011-11-05 05:04:55 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 38a32d0c6d50 r184 / (9 files in 5 dirs):
149 2011-11-05 05:04:55 <CIA-34> poolserverj: Prep for building auxblocks internally to allow custom coinbase
150 2011-11-05 05:04:55 <CIA-34> poolserverj: add NetworkParameters for namecoin prod/testnet
151 2011-11-05 05:04:55 <CIA-34> poolserverj: add BuildableBlock.bitcoinSerializeAuxBlock() method
152 2011-11-05 05:04:55 <CIA-34> poolserverj: abstract buildBaseBlock and buildCoinbase to use any BlockMeta
153 2011-11-05 05:04:56 <CIA-34> poolserverj: Conf now enforces predefined chain names and validates all payoutAddresses before allowing the server to start
154 2011-11-05 05:04:57 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * bd0c3c652d69 r185 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (2 files in 2 dirs):
155 2011-11-05 05:04:57 <CIA-34> poolserverj: added db.connectionOptions property to allow users to add arbitrary connect paramenters to connection URL.
156 2011-11-05 05:04:58 <CIA-34> poolserverj: made 'solution' field optional
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230 2011-11-05 09:18:21 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
231 2011-11-05 09:18:21 <gribble> 8514.2790500105857
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261 2011-11-05 11:26:48 <ThomasV> is there a forum admin here ?
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302 2011-11-05 13:01:58 <Levino> hey guys, i set the paytxfee value of my bitcoind to .0005 but he still pays 0.01 transaction fee
303 2011-11-05 13:02:02 <Levino> is this normal?
304 2011-11-05 13:08:15 <cjdelisle> I think that under certain conditions it will override your settings because there is a danger of having a transaction which miners won't accept, I'm not sure if that's what is happening to you.
305 2011-11-05 13:09:28 <ThomasV> Levino: the tx fee depends on the size
306 2011-11-05 13:09:47 <ThomasV> the fee you set is per kb I think
307 2011-11-05 13:09:53 <lfm> also the age of the input(s) values
308 2011-11-05 13:10:12 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
309 2011-11-05 13:12:04 <ThomasV> btw, will it be possible to cancel a tx that is in the memory pool for too long, or at least to increase its tx fee?
310 2011-11-05 13:12:09 <Levino> the size of the transaction is 404 bytes
311 2011-11-05 13:12:17 <Levino> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/137ac30768fb699f2d905b76929feddb4a61a1fa359554a39832d827bf0eb71d
312 2011-11-05 13:13:08 <ThomasV> Levino: I guess the client should at least tell you about the fee it has decided to pay :-)
313 2011-11-05 13:13:25 <Levino> where to be found? debug.log?
314 2011-11-05 13:13:50 <ThomasV> no, I mean in the dialog, before you accept :-)
315 2011-11-05 13:14:47 <Levino> i do talk about bitcoind running as server
316 2011-11-05 13:14:52 <Levino> using commandline
317 2011-11-05 13:14:55 <Levino> there is no accept
318 2011-11-05 13:15:06 <ThomasV> heh
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336 2011-11-05 14:09:36 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r31f0a62c915e / (12 files in 3 dirs): autotools build system.
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389 2011-11-05 15:34:43 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * rc519ca8c4960 / (Makefile.am configure.ac include/bitcoin/Makefile.am): Install headers system wide.
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394 2011-11-05 15:44:42 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * rba1be241a156 / (Makefile development-makefile): renamed: Makefile -> development-makefile
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431 2011-11-05 16:54:45 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: various * rdb4d3a..8bb703 / (6 files in 3 dirs): (5 commits)
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449 2011-11-05 18:06:50 <eueueu> Hi, the alternatives clients are safe to be used? Bitcoin has any requirement to accept any alternative client as safe?
450 2011-11-05 18:07:20 <copumpkin> you just have to implement the protocol correctly
451 2011-11-05 18:07:30 <nathan7> having read the entire source code means 'safe'
452 2011-11-05 18:07:42 <nathan7> without finding anything you don't trust, that is
453 2011-11-05 18:07:53 <copumpkin> nathan7: you heard of the international underhanded C contest? :D
454 2011-11-05 18:07:59 <nathan7> I have, yes.
455 2011-11-05 18:08:10 ej_ has joined
456 2011-11-05 18:08:11 <copumpkin> eueueu: keep in mind that buggy clients might mean your coins get lost
457 2011-11-05 18:08:13 <nathan7> for the not truly paranoid but still somewhat paranoid, ask a respected person here
458 2011-11-05 18:08:36 * nathan7 waits for the methylphenidate to kick in
459 2011-11-05 18:08:42 <copumpkin> eueueu: so the usual client is probably the most tested, but there's nothing inherently wrong with using a different client
460 2011-11-05 18:08:54 <nathan7> the long night ahead is long and ahead
461 2011-11-05 18:09:03 <copumpkin> longcat is long!
462 2011-11-05 18:09:30 <nathan7> Well, damnit.
463 2011-11-05 18:09:34 <eueueu> ok
464 2011-11-05 18:09:35 * nathan7 grabs a cup o' joe
465 2011-11-05 18:09:37 <eueueu> understand
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468 2011-11-05 18:12:02 <nathan7> Yum, coffee [=
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475 2011-11-05 18:24:49 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r9b581212f95e /examples/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Moved to a separate repo under the project name subvertx: https://gitorious.org/libbitcoin/subvertx
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509 2011-11-05 20:29:25 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r5a3442f36795 / (Makefile.am configure.ac libbitcoin.pc.in): pkg-config
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514 2011-11-05 20:39:30 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * ra69b12b8b470 /libbitcoin.pc.in: pkg-config Requires is more problematic than it is useful.
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518 2011-11-05 20:51:31 <denisx> luke-jr: does your pushpoold uses libevent or libevent2?
519 2011-11-05 20:52:29 eueueue has joined
520 2011-11-05 20:52:43 <luke-jr> denisx: 2 I think, but it's jgarzik's…
521 2011-11-05 20:53:14 <eueueue> ThomasV: what this means: leonardo@debian:~/Desktop/electrum$ python electrum /usr/bin/python: can't find '__main__' module in 'electrum'
522 2011-11-05 20:53:39 <denisx> I have a major memleak since a botnet hits on my pool with 1000 conn/sec
523 2011-11-05 20:53:57 <denisx> and valgrind says libevent is the problem
524 2011-11-05 20:54:34 <ThomasV> eueueue: go to the client directory
525 2011-11-05 20:54:48 <MartianW> eueueue, No need to copy the entire thing, just the bit after the $ is sufficient.
526 2011-11-05 20:55:21 <eueueue> I'm on client directory
527 2011-11-05 20:56:00 <ThomasV> eueueue: I assume you downloaded the code from github, right?
528 2011-11-05 20:56:26 wasabi has joined
529 2011-11-05 20:56:44 <eueueue> ThomasV: from here http://s3.ecdsa.org/electrum.tar.gz
530 2011-11-05 20:57:00 <ThomasV> eueueue: oh that's the binary
531 2011-11-05 20:57:15 <ThomasV> do "cd electrum"
532 2011-11-05 20:57:25 <ThomasV> then ./electrum
533 2011-11-05 20:57:38 <eueueue> ok
534 2011-11-05 20:57:38 <eueueue> wait
535 2011-11-05 20:57:52 <ThomasV> the binary is run without python
536 2011-11-05 20:58:35 <eueueue> ThomasV: leonardo@debian:~/Desktop/electrum$ ./electrum Traceback (most recent call last):   File "<string>", line 6, in <module>   File "__main__.py", line 128, in <module>   File "__main__electrum__.py", line 588, in <module>   File "gui.py", line 23, in <module>   File "gtk/__init__.py", line 40, in <module>   File "gtk/_gtk.py", line 14, in <module> ImportError: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0: undefined sy
537 2011-11-05 20:59:28 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r54b4d9579c0c /libbitcoin.pc.in: Added Cflags to pkg-config file.
538 2011-11-05 20:59:39 ej__ has joined
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540 2011-11-05 21:00:56 <ThomasV> eueueue: it's difficult to know what causes that. I think that you should try to install from the source, not the binary. I can help you to do that
541 2011-11-05 21:01:13 <ThomasV> the binary is a bit experimental
542 2011-11-05 21:01:42 <eueueue> ThomasV: I'm newbie, so I think it's better wait for a more stable binary
543 2011-11-05 21:02:08 <eueueue> Maybe it's because my instalation is 64b
544 2011-11-05 21:02:16 <eueueue> the problem
545 2011-11-05 21:02:18 <ThomasV> I created this binary a few hours ago
546 2011-11-05 21:02:21 <eueueue> ?
547 2011-11-05 21:02:34 <eueueue> understand
548 2011-11-05 21:02:39 <ThomasV> no, it's not due to that, it doesn't look so
549 2011-11-05 21:02:49 <eueueue> ha ok
550 2011-11-05 21:02:55 ej_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
551 2011-11-05 21:03:01 <ThomasV> but your error message is truncated, I cannot read it
552 2011-11-05 21:03:05 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
553 2011-11-05 21:03:15 <eueueue> I can help with anything?
554 2011-11-05 21:03:31 <eueueue> truncated?
555 2011-11-05 21:03:38 <ThomasV> yes, provide the complete error message
556 2011-11-05 21:03:51 <ThomasV> for example on pastebin
557 2011-11-05 21:04:06 <eueueue> The terminal appear this message: leonardo@debian:~/Desktop/electrum$ ./electrum Traceback (most recent call last):   File "<string>", line 6, in <module>   File "__main__.py", line 128, in <module>   File "__main__electrum__.py", line 588, in <module>   File "gui.py", line 23, in <module>   File "gtk/__init__.py", line 40, in <module>   File "gtk/_gtk.py", line 14, in <module> ImportError: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgdk_pixb
558 2011-11-05 21:05:03 <ThomasV> eueueue: I cannot read your complete message, the line is too long, irc cuts it
559 2011-11-05 21:05:07 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
560 2011-11-05 21:05:13 <eueueue> ha ok
561 2011-11-05 21:05:17 <eueueue> i'll paste on patebin
562 2011-11-05 21:05:22 <eueueue> wait
563 2011-11-05 21:06:05 <eueueue> ThomasV: http://pastebin.com/ywuGvDAr
564 2011-11-05 21:06:25 Ramokk has joined
565 2011-11-05 21:07:29 <ThomasV> eueueue: thanks. unfortunately, I don't think it helps...
566 2011-11-05 21:07:40 <eueueue> hum
567 2011-11-05 21:07:44 <eueueue> bad to know
568 2011-11-05 21:07:54 <eueueue> I really would like to test your program
569 2011-11-05 21:08:08 <eueueue> but ok
570 2011-11-05 21:08:29 <ThomasV> well, it is easy to install from the source
571 2011-11-05 21:09:03 <ThomasV> there is no compilation needed, because it is python
572 2011-11-05 21:09:17 <ThomasV> all you need is to install the dependencies
573 2011-11-05 21:09:26 <ThomasV> and I can help you
574 2011-11-05 21:09:36 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r54b6e7e579e5 /libbitcoin.pc.in: C++0x in Cflags for pkg-config
575 2011-11-05 21:09:56 <eueueue> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1801548
576 2011-11-05 21:10:11 <eueueue> appear to be the same kind of problem
577 2011-11-05 21:11:15 <ThomasV> indeed
578 2011-11-05 21:11:24 <ThomasV> but my box is 64 bits
579 2011-11-05 21:12:11 <eueueue> I'm on debian wehexxy
580 2011-11-05 21:12:15 <eueueue> whezzy
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584 2011-11-05 21:19:19 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * rfaf47bfaa7f5 /libbitcoin.pc.in: Added libbitcoin to pkg-config Libs
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589 2011-11-05 21:29:21 <ThomasV> OMFG
590 2011-11-05 21:29:43 <ThomasV> eueueue: google is fast: http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=%2Fusr%2Flib%2Fx86_64-linux-gnu%2Flibgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0%3A+undefined+symbol%3A+g_simple_async_result_take_error&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
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600 2011-11-05 21:52:52 <eueueue> ThomasV: I asked on debian irc about the problem and they said me to write this for you:
601 2011-11-05 21:53:24 <eueueue> first paste the output of "ldd /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0" The result is here: http://pastebin.com/M0H27uXz
602 2011-11-05 21:53:59 <eueueue> show him what you showed us and tell him that the missing symbol is in that libgio
603 2011-11-05 21:54:19 <eueueue> if he cant fix it then, tough luck, i dont know python. I can see that its appearantly not using ld as I just did but probably its own library loader
604 2011-11-05 21:54:34 coblee_ has joined
605 2011-11-05 21:56:54 <ThomasV> eueueue: I don't think that I can fix it, but I can help you install it from source
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609 2011-11-05 21:57:51 <eueueue> ThomasV: I chatting with debian irc and they are helping me to find the problem. I think is a missing librasy
610 2011-11-05 21:58:01 <eueueue> will tell you about news
611 2011-11-05 21:58:02 <eueueue> thanks
612 2011-11-05 21:58:16 wasabi1 has joined
613 2011-11-05 21:58:37 <ThomasV> eueueue: yes, I suppose that you have a missing shared library
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617 2011-11-05 22:06:12 <ThomasV> eueueue: what does "aptitude search python-gtk2" return ?
618 2011-11-05 22:06:39 <eueueue> will see
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620 2011-11-05 22:07:47 <eueueue> ThomasV: http://pastebin.com/1SLy9VM1
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622 2011-11-05 22:09:21 <ThomasV> eueueue: ok, then it should be easy to use the source. the binary is mostly for people who do not have pygtk
623 2011-11-05 22:10:02 <eueueue> ThomasV: but using the source, how to update the program when a new version be released?
624 2011-11-05 22:10:17 <eueueue> will be easy?
625 2011-11-05 22:10:21 <ThomasV> eueueue: with "git pull"
626 2011-11-05 22:10:35 <ThomasV> very easy
627 2011-11-05 22:10:44 <eueueue> so tell me the steps
628 2011-11-05 22:11:19 <ThomasV> "git clone git://gitorious.org/electrum/electrum.git"
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630 2011-11-05 22:12:12 <eueueue> ThomasV: done
631 2011-11-05 22:12:25 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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635 2011-11-05 22:12:42 <ThomasV> "sudo easy_install ecdsa"
636 2011-11-05 22:13:11 <eueueue> ThomasV: done
637 2011-11-05 22:13:11 <ThomasV> and "sudo easy_install pycrypto"
638 2011-11-05 22:13:31 <eueueue> ThomasV: done
639 2011-11-05 22:13:50 <ThomasV> "python /electrum/client/electrum.py"
640 2011-11-05 22:14:15 <ThomasV> err, sorry
641 2011-11-05 22:14:20 <ThomasV> "python ./electrum/client/electrum.py"
642 2011-11-05 22:14:55 <eueueue> what is seed?
643 2011-11-05 22:15:02 <eueueue> sorry my english
644 2011-11-05 22:15:24 <ThomasV> it is a secret passphrase that you must remember
645 2011-11-05 22:15:44 <eueueue> hum
646 2011-11-05 22:15:44 <eueueue> ok
647 2011-11-05 22:16:06 <eueueue> minimun 20
648 2011-11-05 22:16:07 <eueueue> wow
649 2011-11-05 22:16:40 <ThomasV> eueueue: http://xkcd.com/936/
650 2011-11-05 22:17:21 <eueueue> ThomasV: server
651 2011-11-05 22:17:23 <ThomasV> the seed will be asked only once. it is not your encryption password
652 2011-11-05 22:17:38 <eueueue> ok
653 2011-11-05 22:17:39 <eueueue> ecdsa.org:50000
654 2011-11-05 22:17:45 <ThomasV> oh leave all fields to their default values
655 2011-11-05 22:18:03 <ThomasV> there is no other server at this point :-)
656 2011-11-05 22:18:21 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
657 2011-11-05 22:18:45 <eueueue> ThomasV: Can i use my walltet of bitcoin?
658 2011-11-05 22:18:46 DrHaribo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
659 2011-11-05 22:18:52 <ThomasV> eueueue: so you see, it was not too difficult
660 2011-11-05 22:19:05 <eueueue> ThomasV: you are right
661 2011-11-05 22:19:51 <ThomasV> no, you cannot import keys from another wallet. this is not possible, because the key generation is deterministic
662 2011-11-05 22:19:53 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
663 2011-11-05 22:19:54 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: I hope you're not encouraging people to use this as is. Using password based wallets without considerable key strengthening is very inadvisable, even if you have given it a long minimum length.
664 2011-11-05 22:20:57 BlueMatt has joined
665 2011-11-05 22:21:03 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: you mean because people will choose guessable seeds ?
666 2011-11-05 22:21:41 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: because people are _incapable_ of chosing non-guessable seeds.
667 2011-11-05 22:21:53 TheZimm has joined
668 2011-11-05 22:22:07 <gmaxwell> (and because including a bunch of strengthening is a very cheap way to even the playing field a bit)
669 2011-11-05 22:22:42 EvilSmurf has joined
670 2011-11-05 22:25:04 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: I'm generally opposed to user-key provided wallets. People are really amazingly bad at choosing passwords, and "write down and keep safe this random sequence" isn't all that burdensom. But at least use considerable strengthening... if you must: cache the strenghtened form and use it as a master key to derrive the others.
671 2011-11-05 22:25:52 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I am not doing this now.
672 2011-11-05 22:26:25 <cjdelisle> People are really amazingly bad at <-- but they are still the boss
673 2011-11-05 22:27:03 <ThomasV> well, people are amazingly bad at doing regular backups of their wallets too
674 2011-11-05 22:27:21 localhost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
675 2011-11-05 22:27:29 tower has joined
676 2011-11-05 22:27:30 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: sure, I'm not at all opposed to determinstic wallets. I'm opposed to user provided keys, because the user won't provide enough entropy.
677 2011-11-05 22:27:35 <ThomasV> but I agree that some salting could be added
678 2011-11-05 22:27:43 <gmaxwell> (and not just won't, generally _can't_)
679 2011-11-05 22:28:41 <gmaxwell> But none of those backup problems exist for a "here is your wallet code (128 bit number in pgpwords form) if you lose it, all your coin is lost, have fun!"
680 2011-11-05 22:29:10 <ThomasV> yes, except that such a code will not be memorized
681 2011-11-05 22:29:30 <cjdelisle> It could be optional, if people want to use it, why not.
682 2011-11-05 22:30:06 <cjdelisle> The part where it gets evil is when you're corraling people and forcing something down their throat.
683 2011-11-05 22:30:15 <ThomasV> eueueue: is your seed easily guessable ?
684 2011-11-05 22:30:27 <eueueue> yes
685 2011-11-05 22:30:38 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: also you can't generally ask people that. They'll say no, then be shocked.
686 2011-11-05 22:31:02 localhost has joined
687 2011-11-05 22:31:18 <ThomasV> heh no, someone just said yes
688 2011-11-05 22:31:25 <gmaxwell> indeed.
689 2011-11-05 22:31:40 <gmaxwell> You basically can't get more than two dozen bits of entopy out of someone, even if they are trying hard to be secure... not with any hope of them remembering it.
690 2011-11-05 22:31:41 <ThomasV> well, I do like the idea of storing the seed in my memory
691 2011-11-05 22:31:43 <eueueue> Tell me: the official bitcoin client will have option to use blockchain of a external server?
692 2011-11-05 22:32:27 <ThomasV> eueueue: I do not know about that
693 2011-11-05 22:32:43 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: The software shouldn't foot gun the user. If it's not possible for the software to get most of the users to understand the ramifications of a dangerious decision, it shouldn't offer the decision.
694 2011-11-05 22:33:29 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: also, my first point wrt- strenghtening isn't something the user would even be aware of.
695 2011-11-05 22:33:43 <cjdelisle> What OS do you use?
696 2011-11-05 22:33:43 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I agree on that
697 2011-11-05 22:33:53 <ThomasV> I mean, on your last point
698 2011-11-05 22:34:01 <gmaxwell> Right.
699 2011-11-05 22:34:10 bernie has joined
700 2011-11-05 22:37:41 freewil has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
701 2011-11-05 22:40:30 eueueue has quit (Quit: Page closed)
702 2011-11-05 22:40:43 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: but even with that, you still retain the serious risk from users being unable to produce entropy. There is even a nontrivial risk of accidental collision if the software is widely used— keep in mind that birthday 'paradox' means you half the bits of effective security against chance collisions.
703 2011-11-05 22:41:33 <ThomasV> how so?
704 2011-11-05 22:42:34 <ThomasV> I mean, how is a collision possible with strenghtening?
705 2011-11-05 22:43:22 iocor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
706 2011-11-05 22:44:26 <gmaxwell> Strenghtening is orthorgonal. It doesn't change the amount of entropy in the users passwords it simply makes an attacker who is trying many in brute force work (a LOT) harder.
707 2011-11-05 22:45:52 <gmaxwell> But two users could, by chance, pick the same password without any brute force just because their passwords have low entropy... and because any user could potentially match any other the chance of this happening to _someone_ is worse than you might expect from the entropy of their passwords.
708 2011-11-05 22:46:46 <ThomasV> wait, are you talking about extending the key with a salt?
709 2011-11-05 22:48:11 <gmaxwell> No, thats not what key strenghtening is.
710 2011-11-05 22:48:53 <ThomasV> that's what bccapi does
711 2011-11-05 22:49:21 <Eliel> gmaxwell: I wonder how much entropy you could reliably get by having the user draw something. That is, repeatable entropy.
712 2011-11-05 22:50:19 <ThomasV> Eliel: very little. they will not be able to recover their drawings
713 2011-11-05 22:50:54 <gmaxwell> Eliel: I spent some time trying to figure out a simpler question that that—
714 2011-11-05 22:51:38 <gmaxwell> Eliel: can you make a series of questions for the user which map to a key where they only have to get any N out of M right, but you're blind when decoding it.
715 2011-11-05 22:52:17 <Eliel> blind? what d oes that mean?
716 2011-11-05 22:52:45 <gmaxwell> Eliel: and after hours of thinking about it, I come up with a simple enough proof that it's not possible (it's hard to explain in text— basically you draw the graph expressing inputs to outputs, then perform a matching and you'll see that with the N-M constraint all subgraphs must be connected— so there can be only one key)
717 2011-11-05 22:53:05 <gmaxwell> Eliel: e.g. you don't have anything other than what the user provides.. no external check value or whatever.
718 2011-11-05 22:53:54 <gmaxwell> I'd hoped to use something like that to create a determinstic wallet that asked you a bunch of personal questions to form your key but didn't require you to actually get all of them right. Alas.
719 2011-11-05 22:53:55 <Eliel> you could perhaps help that a little by having the user memorize a short password.
720 2011-11-05 22:54:00 MartianW has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
721 2011-11-05 22:54:29 <Eliel> which wouldn't really be a password but rather error correcting code for the set of questions.
722 2011-11-05 22:54:33 <gmaxwell> Eliel: yes, if you're willing to have the user memorize something then you're fine.  Though at that point you could skip the form and have them just remember enough bits to provide real security.
723 2011-11-05 22:54:58 <Eliel> how many bits of entropy would each question get you?
724 2011-11-05 22:55:41 <Eliel> even with questions, you're depending on them remembering the answers.
725 2011-11-05 22:55:43 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
726 2011-11-05 22:55:49 <gmaxwell> only a few.. consider the sorts of questions you could ask people.
727 2011-11-05 22:56:08 <gmaxwell> Eliel: yes, people already remember many things.
728 2011-11-05 22:56:22 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: "newborn December egghead insurgent goggles maritime slingshot specialist cement bookseller" < is that terribly hard to remember?
729 2011-11-05 22:56:47 <gmaxwell> (especially when for reentery you can complete the words using a list?)
730 2011-11-05 22:56:59 <Eliel> I was thinking to both use what they already remember and the password, which doesn't have to be all correct either if they happen to remember enough questions.
731 2011-11-05 22:57:11 <Eliel> they couldn't choose the password though
732 2011-11-05 22:57:18 <Eliel> if that was to be the case
733 2011-11-05 22:57:34 ForceMajeure has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
734 2011-11-05 22:57:47 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: no
735 2011-11-05 22:57:54 <gmaxwell> (Thats 80 bits of real entropy there— not ideal, 128 is the gold standard)
736 2011-11-05 22:58:03 btc_buddy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
737 2011-11-05 22:58:12 <gmaxwell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list
738 2011-11-05 22:58:14 btc_buddy has joined
739 2011-11-05 22:58:44 ForceMajeure has joined
740 2011-11-05 22:58:52 <Eliel> gmaxwell: one obvious thing might be to base it on their handwriting. Those should be reasonably stable forms they can repeat.
741 2011-11-05 22:59:18 ForceMajeure is now known as Guest69393
742 2011-11-05 22:59:31 <Eliel> but it does have the disadvantage that it's relatively easy to get a hold of.
743 2011-11-05 22:59:35 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, most people are fully capable of memorizing a 128 bit password
744 2011-11-05 22:59:38 <gmaxwell> Eliel: good luck creating an _efficient_ errorcorrecting code for that. :)
745 2011-11-05 22:59:39 iocor has joined
746 2011-11-05 22:59:44 <phantomcircuit> seriously
747 2011-11-05 23:00:01 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: They're not capable of making them up.
748 2011-11-05 23:00:28 <Eliel> phantomcircuit: yes, but they're lazy about learning them :)
749 2011-11-05 23:00:32 <phantomcircuit> rbgjg66depu4e2jm568aw9q2vc
750 2011-11-05 23:00:37 Disposition has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
751 2011-11-05 23:00:39 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: so you recommend to generate the seed, and then convert it to such a word list?
752 2011-11-05 23:00:42 <phantomcircuit> that is well within the crasp of a human being to memorize
753 2011-11-05 23:01:16 <phantomcircuit> ok that's 131 bits
754 2011-11-05 23:01:17 <phantomcircuit> but still
755 2011-11-05 23:01:57 <Eliel> phantomcircuit: while that is memorizeable, most people won't attempt it without a very heavy reason.
756 2011-11-05 23:02:12 <phantomcircuit> yeah something crazy like securing all their money?
757 2011-11-05 23:02:12 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
758 2011-11-05 23:02:12 <phantomcircuit> xD
759 2011-11-05 23:02:14 Disposition has joined
760 2011-11-05 23:02:26 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: Yes sir, and better— also combine it with a password (don't put any burdensom requirements on the password). Save the seed on disk. Use a moderately costly Key derivation to generate the master key you actually use.
761 2011-11-05 23:02:32 <Eliel> phantomcircuit: only if they believe it's really necessary
762 2011-11-05 23:02:37 <terrytibbs> can i make a copy of the blockchain files while bitcoin is running?
763 2011-11-05 23:02:49 <phantomcircuit> terrytibbs, yes but dont
764 2011-11-05 23:02:56 <phantomcircuit> it will *probably* work
765 2011-11-05 23:02:59 <Eliel> phantomcircuit: you'd be surprised how many will refuse to believe they need to remember that much.
766 2011-11-05 23:03:12 <terrytibbs> phantomcircuit: what is the recommended way to make blockchain backups?
767 2011-11-05 23:03:29 <phantomcircuit> terrytibbs, stop the client
768 2011-11-05 23:03:41 <phantomcircuit> there is an rpc call for backing up the wallet
769 2011-11-05 23:03:43 <terrytibbs> darn it
770 2011-11-05 23:03:48 <terrytibbs> yeah, i know about that one
771 2011-11-05 23:04:04 OneFixt_ has joined
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774 2011-11-05 23:05:21 batouzo has joined
775 2011-11-05 23:05:32 <batouzo> do you think USA might outlaw mining or using btc?
776 2011-11-05 23:05:39 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I like this idea
777 2011-11-05 23:05:56 <batouzo> one would think it's quite crazy to do so, but so is petting down children on prom by TSA agents
778 2011-11-05 23:06:09 OneFixt_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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780 2011-11-05 23:06:38 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
781 2011-11-05 23:06:41 <gmaxwell> batouzo: wrong channel, keep the political speculation someplace else please!
782 2011-11-05 23:06:46 <Mad7Scientist> my poclbm miners keep getting disconnected from bitcoin -server
783 2011-11-05 23:06:55 <Mad7Scientist> I have to restart bitcoin to let them reconnect
784 2011-11-05 23:07:16 <Mad7Scientist> they are just stuck on "Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC"
785 2011-11-05 23:07:23 <batouzo> gmaxwell: oki, perhaps it is not important enough to be here
786 2011-11-05 23:08:10 <gmaxwell> batouzo: Its not a question anyone can answer objectively. All it can do is inspire various politics laden arguments.
787 2011-11-05 23:08:41 EPiSKiNG has joined
788 2011-11-05 23:08:55 <batouzo> we can monitor what is happening and where legislation is going
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791 2011-11-05 23:09:24 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
792 2011-11-05 23:09:26 <batouzo> maybe more on topic question - is there plan what developers should do in such event
793 2011-11-05 23:09:26 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
794 2011-11-05 23:09:43 <terrytibbs> you cannot stop a peer-to-peer network
795 2011-11-05 23:09:58 <terrytibbs> there is no central point of attack
796 2011-11-05 23:10:09 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: please don't spread misinformation.
797 2011-11-05 23:10:18 <terrytibbs> please, correct me
798 2011-11-05 23:10:28 <BlueMatt> batouzo: no, if bitcoin were made illegal in the us/eu why bother, its dead anyway
799 2011-11-05 23:10:45 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is not at all resistant to suppression by governments. As BlueMatt says, why bother?
800 2011-11-05 23:11:03 <gmaxwell> It's also not obvious that bitcoin could be made secure while it was broadly illegal.
801 2011-11-05 23:11:08 <terrytibbs> "suppression"
802 2011-11-05 23:11:19 <batouzo> BlueMatt: it is "dead" then?
803 2011-11-05 23:11:21 <BlueMatt> maybe you could keep the network going, but its not gonna grow if it cant get legitimate support
804 2011-11-05 23:11:23 <batouzo> how?
805 2011-11-05 23:11:26 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: you block a single port on the internet and the current bitcoin software is over.
806 2011-11-05 23:11:42 <terrytibbs> gmaxwell: right, but did you "stop" bitcoin?
807 2011-11-05 23:11:49 <batouzo> BlueMatt: every big prohibition that comes to my mind, only made given thing bigger
808 2011-11-05 23:11:55 <BlueMatt> heh, not at all
809 2011-11-05 23:11:59 <batouzo> alcohol prohibition increases alcohol and drugs usage x7
810 2011-11-05 23:12:00 ej_ has joined
811 2011-11-05 23:12:04 <BlueMatt> bitcoin isnt big
812 2011-11-05 23:12:24 <batouzo> banning nutella and alikes spawned torrents with virtually everyone using
813 2011-11-05 23:12:25 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: you find a miner. You put him on live tv. You shoot him in the head. You say "Who's next? Our power meter auditers are ready"
814 2011-11-05 23:12:32 <batouzo> *gnutella? how was that called ;)
815 2011-11-05 23:12:38 <BlueMatt> bitcoin would have to have HUGE backing for it to resist being made illegal, and then it probably still wouldnt survive as huge backing probably comes from legitimate companies what will pull out
816 2011-11-05 23:12:40 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: now how can bitcoin be secure in an enviroment like that.
817 2011-11-05 23:12:46 Cablesaurus has joined
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819 2011-11-05 23:12:46 Cablesaurus has joined
820 2011-11-05 23:12:49 <terrytibbs> gmaxwell: i'm not saying you can't supress bitcoin - i'm saying you can't stop it
821 2011-11-05 23:13:09 <BlueMatt> network-wise maybe, but it wont keep growing, and most of the current developers would drop off
822 2011-11-05 23:13:21 <terrytibbs> i agree
823 2011-11-05 23:13:27 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: I just described how you stop it. One mining must be done in secret the hash power will be low enough that it becomes trivial to just DOS bitcoin out with blocks of trash.
824 2011-11-05 23:13:51 <batouzo> BlueMatt: many things grow so big while being banned. Or even, because they are banned
825 2011-11-05 23:14:04 <batouzo> dunno maybe btc is too small though
826 2011-11-05 23:14:04 bitcoinbulletin has joined
827 2011-11-05 23:14:09 <terrytibbs> gmaxwell: you still haven't stopped the network
828 2011-11-05 23:14:12 <BlueMatt> in a very different set of circumstances, maybe, not bitcoin
829 2011-11-05 23:14:14 ej__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
830 2011-11-05 23:14:16 <terrytibbs> it might be worthless, but it's still running
831 2011-11-05 23:14:43 <BlueMatt> if eu+us govt tried to block bitcoin all they have to do is go after the devs and bitcoin is gone
832 2011-11-05 23:14:43 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: well I stopped in in step zero above by globally blocking a single port.
833 2011-11-05 23:14:51 <batouzo> bittorrent (for given files) is illegal.
834 2011-11-05 23:14:55 <batouzo> but people still use it
835 2011-11-05 23:15:03 <BlueMatt> very different case there
836 2011-11-05 23:15:13 <batouzo> why should people listen to some stupid law like that all of a sudden
837 2011-11-05 23:15:27 <terrytibbs> gmaxwell: that's more like a roadblock
838 2011-11-05 23:15:30 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: of course it _could_ be made more agile than that, but as you admitted— if someone wants to attack it they can make it worthless, so why bother?
839 2011-11-05 23:15:43 <batouzo> about mining... it would just moved to other countries?
840 2011-11-05 23:16:14 <terrytibbs> gmaxwell: i fully agree. i simply reacted to you telling me to stop spreading misinformation
841 2011-11-05 23:16:18 <batouzo> BlueMatt: bitcoin is open source, actually can work without devels
842 2011-11-05 23:16:25 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: If you're willing to admit changing the software to evade network level blocking then you can say that nothing can be stopped.  Block drugs at the border? people figure out how to make a van _out_ of drugs. :)
843 2011-11-05 23:16:43 <terrytibbs> yes, but you can stop paypal
844 2011-11-05 23:16:48 <terrytibbs> you can't stop bitcoin
845 2011-11-05 23:16:51 <gmaxwell> No, just a roadblock...
846 2011-11-05 23:16:53 <batouzo> developers have option to move development to freenet using Mercurial for example. (or just git it)
847 2011-11-05 23:17:04 <terrytibbs> gmaxwell: explain
848 2011-11-05 23:17:05 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
849 2011-11-05 23:17:18 <gmaxwell> other paypal clones would pop up.. or the paypal opertors could make it available via a hidden service.
850 2011-11-05 23:17:29 <terrytibbs> oh, you're doing that angle
851 2011-11-05 23:17:34 <gmaxwell> They probably _won't_ because that would be silly, but they could!
852 2011-11-05 23:17:43 <batouzo> wait, why we talk about paypal now?
853 2011-11-05 23:18:16 <BlueMatt> batouzo: either its the language barrier, or you are unwilling to accept reality, either way not a useful discussion
854 2011-11-05 23:18:40 <terrytibbs> fine; you cannot take all the money in the bitcoin economy, but you can do the paypal equivalent
855 2011-11-05 23:18:53 <batouzo> gmaxwell: I mean, how can you stop people from developing bitcoin software?
856 2011-11-05 23:18:59 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: you can make bitcoin _unspendable_
857 2011-11-05 23:19:10 <gmaxwell> batouzo: by putting them in jail when you find them.
858 2011-11-05 23:19:28 <gmaxwell> (in the US prisoners don't get computers :) )
859 2011-11-05 23:19:34 <batouzo> then developers would probably use at least tor?
860 2011-11-05 23:19:49 <gmaxwell> No, they'd find something less risky to do with their time.
861 2011-11-05 23:19:59 <terrytibbs> gmaxwell: i think we're both dancing around each other's questions, let's agree to disagree
862 2011-11-05 23:20:00 <BlueMatt> none of the current devs would be willing to contribute if it represents such a big risk
863 2011-11-05 23:20:39 <batouzo> people did developed stuff like DeCss
864 2011-11-05 23:20:40 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: I think you're still missing an important point. Once the hash power is low, a wealthy attacker can just process no more transactions. You could start trying to block that, but then it's not bitcoin anymore.
865 2011-11-05 23:20:50 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
866 2011-11-05 23:20:56 <BlueMatt> batouzo: I said none of bitcoin's current devs, not no devs in the world
867 2011-11-05 23:21:00 <batouzo> actually.. was any software delegalized?
868 2011-11-05 23:21:09 <batouzo> except for cryptography in past
869 2011-11-05 23:21:37 <terrytibbs> gmaxwell: with enough money, you can make bitcoin _almost_ stop processing transactions
870 2011-11-05 23:21:44 <terrytibbs> today!
871 2011-11-05 23:21:44 <gmaxwell> batouzo: no,— software even made crypto more legal.
872 2011-11-05 23:21:50 <batouzo> so development could continue with new people. if at all needed... we do have total backward compatibility
873 2011-11-05 23:22:01 <BlueMatt> if you get a nice case of it happening, bitcoin devs could easily be gone after for money laundering
874 2011-11-05 23:22:14 <gmaxwell> (see Bernstein v. United States)
875 2011-11-05 23:22:44 <batouzo> BlueMatt: that is a possibility too
876 2011-11-05 23:22:50 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: Indeed, swinging over to my side?
877 2011-11-05 23:22:54 <batouzo> hm. I guess satoshi was wise to remain anon
878 2011-11-05 23:22:55 <batouzo> :)
879 2011-11-05 23:23:09 <gmaxwell> Except, with a sprinkle of illegality you could make it completely stop and not too expensively.
880 2011-11-05 23:23:10 <cocktopus> trollan
881 2011-11-05 23:23:17 <midnightmagic> i think gavin's really put his neck out there doing it in the open
882 2011-11-05 23:23:25 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
883 2011-11-05 23:23:36 <midnightmagic> i'm not surprised at all that he's been talking to lawyers this whole time.
884 2011-11-05 23:23:43 <terrytibbs> gmaxwell: I guess I was always on your side on that subject, what I meant was that you couldn't _stop_ the network per se
885 2011-11-05 23:23:51 <batouzo> midnightmagic: e.g. Freenet does it by heaving few open developers, as well as some anomymous
886 2011-11-05 23:24:07 <midnightmagic> and i2p appears to be mostly anonymous
887 2011-11-05 23:24:07 <batouzo> I assume if people would opress main developers, there are other people ready to continue
888 2011-11-05 23:24:10 wolfspraul has joined
889 2011-11-05 23:24:13 <batouzo> midnightmagic: yeap. Zzz ;)
890 2011-11-05 23:24:19 <midnightmagic> who the hell is duck..  or zzz?
891 2011-11-05 23:24:20 <batouzo> ("zzz" developer)
892 2011-11-05 23:24:27 <midnightmagic> yeah exactly.
893 2011-11-05 23:24:35 <batouzo> actually, bitcoin should has easiest way here. the code is so simple and small
894 2011-11-05 23:24:50 <gmaxwell> terrytibbs: okay, but you admit that when people talk about stopping bitcoin they'd take "worthless and unable to process transactions" as "stopped", no?
895 2011-11-05 23:25:19 <terrytibbs> bitcoin? yes
896 2011-11-05 23:25:21 <batouzo> gmaxwell: nodes can run on TOR right?
897 2011-11-05 23:25:21 <terrytibbs> the network? no
898 2011-11-05 23:25:28 <terrytibbs> i probably misspoke
899 2011-11-05 23:25:36 <midnightmagic> as long as people are philosophically inclined to use something like bitcoin, and maybe open transactions, the software itself is immortal.
900 2011-11-05 23:25:39 <batouzo> the more world would outlaw mining, assuming people would be not able to fight against such ... law
901 2011-11-05 23:25:54 <batouzo> ...the more people mining on TOR are earning more on it (at least from the lower-diff part)
902 2011-11-05 23:25:56 <gmaxwell> batouzo: kind.
903 2011-11-05 23:26:03 <gmaxwell> It doesn't work right on tor alone.
904 2011-11-05 23:26:18 <gmaxwell> Because it can't rumor onion addresses.. you'd have to manually configure all your peers.
905 2011-11-05 23:26:29 <batouzo> gmaxwell: yeah, you have to build darknet
906 2011-11-05 23:26:43 <batouzo> seems like something that can be improved
907 2011-11-05 23:27:05 <batouzo> I think bitcoin would survive technically at least :)
908 2011-11-05 23:27:05 <gmaxwell> It can be, I posted a list of things. And I think it should be improved— but it doesn't make bitcoin outside of the reach of the law.
909 2011-11-05 23:27:11 <terrytibbs> bootstrapping was always a semi-problem
910 2011-11-05 23:27:41 <batouzo> gmaxwell: law is far from perfect
911 2011-11-05 23:27:42 <midnightmagic> you can use namecoin to do lookups that resolve to .onion
912 2011-11-05 23:27:50 <gmaxwell> The reason to make it work better on tor is not to make it survive being outlawed generally— but to discourage small states from outlawing it.
913 2011-11-05 23:27:57 <batouzo> wonder if people would care enough to make some movement to lift bitcoin ban
914 2011-11-05 23:28:36 <midnightmagic> it would be very hard to tailor a law to ban bitcoin itself that doesn't have a pile of collateral damage.
915 2011-11-05 23:28:38 <gmaxwell> E.g. to make it less likely that Saudi Arabia would filter it.
916 2011-11-05 23:30:24 <batouzo> midnightmagic: I guess
917 2011-11-05 23:30:30 <batouzo> midnightmagic: look at recent laws though
918 2011-11-05 23:30:55 <midnightmagic> right and they mostly have significant collateral damage that sweeps up a whole pile of activities into illegality.
919 2011-11-05 23:31:10 <batouzo> yeap
920 2011-11-05 23:31:18 <batouzo> and still they are in place
921 2011-11-05 23:31:35 cronopio has quit (Quit: leaving)
922 2011-11-05 23:31:50 <midnightmagic> some would argue laws like that are unconstitutional. but unfortunately nobody has the clout nor balls to properly challenge them.
923 2011-11-05 23:32:39 <batouzo> why can't users, citizens, just make sure such laws, as well as all bans and wars on alcohol and everything be stopped?  They where able to do it before in USA.. constitution, 4th amendment, fight to legalize [exporting] of crypto... Why now it is not working?
924 2011-11-05 23:33:37 <midnightmagic> because the U.S. is not a democracy, and not even a republic anymore. It is an inverted totalitarian state, but few people realise how far along it is in that direction.
925 2011-11-05 23:33:42 <batouzo> or for many parts of the world too. (EU).  Do you think it may be economically based, that people depend on gov?
926 2011-11-05 23:34:02 <BlueMatt> ok, can we stop the political discussion?
927 2011-11-05 23:34:31 <midnightmagic> you have something about bitcoin that needs to be discussed?
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929 2011-11-05 23:35:01 <batouzo> BlueMatt: common, this has direct effect on bitcoin. It's not religion talk or something
930 2011-11-05 23:35:13 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: what does the password bring in the seed generation?
931 2011-11-05 23:35:29 <phantomcircuit> batouzo, plz2 #bitcoin
932 2011-11-05 23:35:44 <batouzo> Im there too
933 2011-11-05 23:36:12 <BlueMatt> then discuss it there, its about bitcoin, not bitcoin development
934 2011-11-05 23:36:12 <batouzo> midnighmagic, join too :)
935 2011-11-05 23:36:13 <midnightmagic> nobody has ever off-topic'd #bitcoin-dev directly while I was watching, for the whole time I've been here since last december.
936 2011-11-05 23:36:23 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: bullshit
937 2011-11-05 23:36:46 <batouzo> wait I remember
938 2011-11-05 23:36:50 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-dev used to always be off-topic
939 2011-11-05 23:36:54 <batouzo> taht is correct
940 2011-11-05 23:36:55 <BlueMatt> in fact, it often is now adays
941 2011-11-05 23:37:08 TheZimm has joined
942 2011-11-05 23:37:28 <midnightmagic> what I mean is, nobody has ever attempted to force conversation off #bitcoin-dev into another channel by claiming the topic is offtopic.
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944 2011-11-05 23:38:16 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: The password would let you save the seed on disk without making the user completely vulnerable to someone who gets access to a copy of their disk.
945 2011-11-05 23:38:39 <ThomasV> oh but that's after
946 2011-11-05 23:38:40 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: er, I just did a few minutes ago.
947 2011-11-05 23:38:54 <nanotube> midnightmagic: well, it keeps the logs less verbose for people wanting to catch up later, if nothing else :)
948 2011-11-05 23:38:59 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: people always do if they feel like discussin bitcoin, or otherwise feel like having a quiet chan
949 2011-11-05 23:39:10 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: right, there isn't any need during. Use the best randomness sorce available.
950 2011-11-05 23:39:11 <batouzo> in such case, let's talk in #btc-value too
951 2011-11-05 23:39:46 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: what is the best randomness source?
952 2011-11-05 23:40:45 <gmaxwell> Depends on the operating system. There are platform specific routines for this— typically crypto libraries like openssl provide functions for it that are well respected.  In linux (and many other modern unix like systems) you read /dev/random
953 2011-11-05 23:41:28 <iddo> can ask user to move his mouse? truecrypt does that
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956 2011-11-05 23:42:27 <gmaxwell> like crypto— its probably best to avoid rolling your own randomness sources.. at least if you can, and if you can't ... combine several (with a cryptographic hash function).
957 2011-11-05 23:42:54 <iddo> how about allow easy password but do lots of scrypt or sha256 iterations on it, then when user wanna retrieve his password he gets prompt that says he needs to wait say 5 hours, but can do merge-mining during these 5 hours to earn some bitcoins?:)
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959 2011-11-05 23:43:11 <midnightmagic>  /dev/random is built by sources of entropy in the system. on netbsd, /dev/random can be fed by bitstir
960 2011-11-05 23:44:06 Cablesaurus has joined
961 2011-11-05 23:44:15 <gmaxwell> iddo: you can't merge mining that operation, also, making brute force computationally hard is good— but what if two regular users pick the same easy password?  computation suppliments entropy, it doesn't replace it.
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969 2011-11-05 23:45:58 <gmaxwell> With enough computation you can probably get away with a lot less true randomness, but not none.
970 2011-11-05 23:45:59 <iddo> ah right cannot merge-mine because no new nonce at each iteration
971 2011-11-05 23:46:54 <gmaxwell> iddo: not just that— its a different problem. There is only one right value for your password because its a cryptographic key. Mining has many right values because any sufficient difficulty solution will suffice.
972 2011-11-05 23:47:50 <iddo> yes i think that's what i meant by no new nonce
973 2011-11-05 23:48:29 <iddo> ok stupid idea:(
974 2011-11-05 23:48:34 <gmaxwell> It would be nice.
975 2011-11-05 23:49:20 <gmaxwell> Actually having a password recovery service that could work with merged mining might be neat.  "Go convince 10% of the bitcoin hashpower to work on making you a recovery token, and then we'll give you your password back" :)
976 2011-11-05 23:51:10 <iddo> maybe merge-mining could work if you treat the output of each iteration as the next nonce ?
977 2011-11-05 23:52:19 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
978 2011-11-05 23:52:39 <gmaxwell> It's just a fundimentally different kind of problem.
979 2011-11-05 23:54:30 <iddo> hmm i guess it cannot work because you cannot derive the first bitcoin block data from the password, because the bitcoin block is different each time
980 2011-11-05 23:57:29 <gmaxwell> You could do some crazy thing where instead of incrementing the normal nonce, you put nonce inside the hardening function and incremnet that. You could merge that but it would save you no effort at all, because you'd have to do four more hashes just to update the bitcoin block.
981 2011-11-05 23:58:09 wasabi has joined
982 2011-11-05 23:59:32 <iddo> hmm i don't understand, the process that starts from the easy password and does lots of iterations has to be deterministic, so how it can be combined with unknown bitcoin block?
983 2011-11-05 23:59:40 <iddo> what is the hardening function?