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  5 2011-11-06 00:03:54 <gmaxwell> iddo: :) in that crazy example the hardening function is the bitcoin nonce.
  6 2011-11-06 00:04:30 <gmaxwell> so the hardening function runs like normal, and you embed it in the bitcoin pow as the source of the entropy required to 'search'. But as I mentioned, doing that buys you nothing.
  7 2011-11-06 00:05:10 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: can I use iterations of sha256 as the hardening function?
  8 2011-11-06 00:05:37 <ThomasV> I mean for the key from seed
  9 2011-11-06 00:06:12 <ThomasV> I heard scrypt is better, but that's an extra dependency
 10 2011-11-06 00:06:34 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: sha512 based PBKDF2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBKDF2 perhaps?
 11 2011-11-06 00:07:24 <gmaxwell> (plain iterated hashes have some theoretical weaknesses, SHA512 is faster on 64 bit CPUs than SHA256— and doesn't the big installed base of gpu optimization)
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 13 2011-11-06 00:08:03 <gmaxwell> Yes, scrypt would be better.
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 15 2011-11-06 00:09:33 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: that wikipedia page mentions a salt?
 16 2011-11-06 00:09:55 <iddo> gmaxwell: not sure i understand, only thing i could think of is maybe you could do merge-mining while initially creating the hashed password by combining the iterations with bitcoin blocks, but then you'd need extra storage to save the bitcoin block data you tried in the process, and you don't earn bitcoins when you need to retrieve the password
 17 2011-11-06 00:12:03 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: yes? you'd use the random data you're expecting the user to memorize/save there.
 18 2011-11-06 00:12:30 <gmaxwell> iddo: It's probably better that you don't understand, it was intentionally silly.
 19 2011-11-06 00:13:32 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: well, I thought I'd use it as the "password"
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 21 2011-11-06 00:16:12 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: well IIRC the only thing PBKDF2 does with the salt is concatinate it as I recall. So if there isn't naturally a salt in your usage, just leave it out.
 22 2011-11-06 00:16:53 <ThomasV> ok, so that boils down to iterate over sha512
 23 2011-11-06 00:17:18 <ThomasV> what is the number of iterations you recommend?
 24 2011-11-06 00:19:06 <iddo> ThomasV: measure cpu speed to determine num of iterations that will take x time, and save that value? that's what bitcoin wallet encryption does i think
 25 2011-11-06 00:19:21 <gmaxwell> Well, it's not just iterate over sha512, you keep adding the input back at every step. But yea.  You should use as many as the user can reasonably tolerate. It's best if you can save the amount— e.g. bitcoin wallet encryption uses whatever takes your computer 100ms, but you can't.  Bitcoin's wallet crypto uses a minimum of 25000 (which is what takes 100ms on some really slow pentium m)
 26 2011-11-06 00:19:57 <gmaxwell> iddo: you can't do that for his case, alas, because he doesn't have a great way to store the iteration count.
 27 2011-11-06 00:20:30 <ThomasV> yeah, I want to be deterministic
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 29 2011-11-06 00:21:32 <gmaxwell> one thing thats unfortunate here is that your python mediated implementation might be really slow and cause you to pick a low value... but an attacker is going to use a very fast implementation.
 30 2011-11-06 00:21:43 <iddo> what does deterministic have to do with it? it's deterministic is you store both password and iteration count, no?
 31 2011-11-06 00:21:58 <iddo> i need to scroll up to understand what's the case here..
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 33 2011-11-06 00:22:29 <gmaxwell> iddo: he wants the data to be memorizable or at least easily written down.. and bits spent encoding the iterations are bits that could be spent on more randomness.
 34 2011-11-06 00:22:34 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: python's hashlib is implemented in python?
 35 2011-11-06 00:23:07 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: probably not, but it'll be passing back through python every iteration... go time 25000 and see how long it takes?
 36 2011-11-06 00:24:52 <gmaxwell> I think my desktop does something over a million iterations of sha512 per second per core or something like that, with a straight C implementation
 37 2011-11-06 00:26:22 <ThomasV> heh, it is slow here
 38 2011-11-06 00:26:36 <ThomasV> very slow
 39 2011-11-06 00:27:16 <iddo> this is what we're talking about? https://gitorious.org/electrum
 40 2011-11-06 00:27:21 <ThomasV> yes
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 42 2011-11-06 00:27:30 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: :( :(
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 44 2011-11-06 00:27:53 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: 1 second for 2500, but it does not increase linearly
 45 2011-11-06 00:28:44 <iddo> so the idea is not to store any data that the user couldn't retreive just from what he remembers, hmm..
 46 2011-11-06 00:29:14 <iddo> why scrypt was ruled out?
 47 2011-11-06 00:29:28 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: thats awful! :(
 48 2011-11-06 00:29:48 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: indeed
 49 2011-11-06 00:29:57 <iddo> i think coblee added scrypt in python for p2pool
 50 2011-11-06 00:30:32 <ThomasV> iddo: yes I saw it somewhere
 51 2011-11-06 00:31:35 <gmaxwell> iddo: if its actually implemented in python (and isn't a wrapper on C code) it'll be less secure than the iterated sha-512.
 52 2011-11-06 00:32:41 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: no, wait, I made a mistake
 53 2011-11-06 00:32:47 <iddo> secure in what sense? scrypt should be better from attackers who have gpu ?
 54 2011-11-06 00:33:17 <gmaxwell> Scrypt isn't magical pixie dust! This stuff gains its security by making the computation harder for the attacker. Using a slow implementation of a harder function, so that you must do less of it  then you are not better off than using a fast implemention of a weaker function.
 55 2011-11-06 00:33:35 <iddo> ahh
 56 2011-11-06 00:34:20 <ThomasV> I kept adding the seed as a _string_ so its length exploded :-)
 57 2011-11-06 00:34:40 <gmaxwell> (and I don't know why people think scrypt is gpu hostile.. it may be if you use large enough memory parameters.. but the scrypt papers don't say anything about GPUs IIRC, their focus was on speedups from asics— some of these scrypt mining coins use very small pools that should fit nicely into gpu caches)
 58 2011-11-06 00:34:57 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: ah, ideally you'd want to avoid the coversion to hex. :)
 59 2011-11-06 00:36:04 <ThomasV> well, hashlib works on strings
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 61 2011-11-06 00:36:31 <iddo> i think all scrypt coins use what artforz implemented in cpuminer, not sure if it has parameters?
 62 2011-11-06 00:37:51 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: if I avoid adding the seed (thus no hex conversion), 78ms
 63 2011-11-06 00:38:17 <ThomasV> (on laptop)
 64 2011-11-06 00:39:34 <gmaxwell> Okay, still slow but not uselessly so.
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 69 2011-11-06 00:40:39 <gmaxwell> iddo: they're using only a very small amount of memory. I'm not _sure_ if it's enough to frustrate the current gpus. But I'm pretty sure it's not enough to frustrate reasonably large FPGAS much.
 70 2011-11-06 00:41:12 <gmaxwell> Anyone have an email for him? I'm going to outright ask him if he intentionally picked a function that was FPGA easy for his own benefit.
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 72 2011-11-06 00:43:50 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: do I gain a lot of extra security by adding the seed back on every step? the point is that it might reduce the number of acceptable iterations
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 74 2011-11-06 00:45:30 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: can you find a way of doing it that doesn't involve going to hex? e.g. by some bytes function or something?    The hash loses entropy as you run it.. so constantly feeding it back without restoring the password is theoretically weak, if not actually a pratical problem.
 75 2011-11-06 00:46:22 <ThomasV> that's what I am trying to figure out
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 93 2011-11-06 01:24:00 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: with hex conversion, I get about 1 second for 100000 iterations
 94 2011-11-06 01:25:29 <terrytibbs> who runs http://btcstats.net/?
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 96 2011-11-06 01:26:42 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: h=hashlib.sha512();h.digest() gives me the binary output.
 97 2011-11-06 01:26:57 <ThomasV> use .hexdigest()
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 99 2011-11-06 01:31:51 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: the point I'm making is _don't_ use hexdigest.
100 2011-11-06 01:32:02 <gmaxwell> pw="foo";last="";for i in range(10):hashlib.sha512(pw+last);last=hashlib.digest()  < is that faster?
101 2011-11-06 01:32:34 <ThomasV> you're still adding strings here
102 2011-11-06 01:32:43 <ThomasV> just binary strings
103 2011-11-06 01:33:14 <ThomasV> that will concatenate them
104 2011-11-06 01:33:18 <gmaxwell> yes, but how much of the slowness is from the conversion to hex vs the string manipulation.
105 2011-11-06 01:33:47 <ThomasV> which string manipulation?
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107 2011-11-06 01:34:08 <gmaxwell> The concat. (IIRC python strings are immutable, so thats a copy)
108 2011-11-06 01:34:30 <ThomasV> sorry, I really don't understand
109 2011-11-06 01:34:58 <ThomasV> what is your point?
110 2011-11-06 01:35:19 <gmaxwell> I don't see why this is hard to understand.  I'm suggesting that it may be considerably faster if you get the needless coversion to hex out of the loop.
111 2011-11-06 01:35:29 <ThomasV> if you add strings, the length keeps growing
112 2011-11-06 01:35:34 <gmaxwell> No it doesn't.
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114 2011-11-06 01:35:45 <gmaxwell> The digest is a fixed size.
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116 2011-11-06 01:35:47 <ThomasV> I wish it was needess indeed
117 2011-11-06 01:36:26 <gmaxwell> It _is_ needless.
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119 2011-11-06 01:36:54 <ThomasV> ?
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121 2011-11-06 01:38:53 <ThomasV> hmm you are right
122 2011-11-06 01:39:02 <ThomasV> I guess I need some sleep
123 2011-11-06 01:39:06 <gmaxwell> :)
124 2011-11-06 01:39:36 <ThomasV> why did the size explode in my previous code? I just don't remember what I did there
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127 2011-11-06 01:40:34 <gmaxwell> perhaps you were adding the digest to the password, rather than the password to the digest?
128 2011-11-06 01:40:58 <Tuxavant> trying to programatically monitor my client's blockchain status (is it up to date?)... is there anyway to ask the client what the current highest blocknumber is so I can compare it to getblockcount (which I understand to be the client's idea how many blocks it currently knows about) - or do I need to get the highest block number from an external source?
129 2011-11-06 01:42:06 <ThomasV> perhaps, no idea. it is faster now
130 2011-11-06 01:42:31 <ThomasV> 400ms for 100k
131 2011-11-06 01:43:08 <gmaxwell> Tuxavant: the clients idea of the current height is in the getinfo output.
132 2011-11-06 01:43:28 <gmaxwell> oh you want.. wait.
133 2011-11-06 01:43:35 <gmaxwell> The number the client knows is all it knows
134 2011-11-06 01:43:58 <tcatm> Tuxavant: there's a field in the version message but I wouldn't count on it
135 2011-11-06 01:44:07 <Tuxavant> i need both numbers... the actual last block, and the number of blocks the client knows about so I can sleep until they match
136 2011-11-06 01:44:27 <gmaxwell> There is no such thing.
137 2011-11-06 01:44:31 <gmaxwell> There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
138 2011-11-06 01:44:31 <gmaxwell> We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
139 2011-11-06 01:44:31 <Tuxavant> gah
140 2011-11-06 01:44:35 <gmaxwell> But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know
141 2011-11-06 01:44:36 <tcatm> if you are monitoring anyway you could probably just compare it with blockexplorer.com or another node
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143 2011-11-06 01:45:14 <gmaxwell> Tuxavant: Bitcoin is a distributed system. Future bloks are an unknown unknown until they become a known known. ;)
144 2011-11-06 01:45:19 DontMindMe has joined
145 2011-11-06 01:45:36 <gmaxwell> As tcatm says, you can ask some other node— and hope it's not on some other fork, or broken.
146 2011-11-06 01:45:40 <Tuxavant> ok.. grab it from an external source (blockexplorer) and comapre to the client's idea. gmaxwell, that makes sense
147 2011-11-06 01:46:06 <Tuxavant> gmaxwell, tcatm thank you for the reality check
148 2011-11-06 01:46:10 <gmaxwell> If you're higher than blockexplorer, thats not shocking at any given time. :)
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150 2011-11-06 01:47:39 <Tuxavant> gmaxwell, trying to wrap my mind about my client having a higher block count than block explorer.
151 2011-11-06 01:49:02 <tcatm> can happen easily as block explorer does a lot more processing than your client (which takes longer)
152 2011-11-06 01:49:22 <gmaxwell> Tuxavant: it happens pretty often.
153 2011-11-06 01:49:36 <gmaxwell> tcatm: or just due to network topology.
154 2011-11-06 01:50:01 <gmaxwell> Tuxavant: bitcoin is a distributed system. Blockexplorer is no more central to bitcoin itself than the software on your computer.
155 2011-11-06 01:50:27 <Tuxavant> kinda picking up what you're putting down... yea, i got that part... i can see how it's a moving target
156 2011-11-06 01:50:40 <gmaxwell> Tuxavant: the only difference is that block explorer is maintained, highly visable, and has a nice Ui on it that does a bunch of extra useful stuff.
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158 2011-11-06 01:50:46 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: ok, time to sleep. thanks for your inputs
159 2011-11-06 01:50:56 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: No problem. I'm glad to yell at you any time.
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161 2011-11-06 01:51:16 <Tuxavant> for what I'm doing.. it's not that critical... i just want to allow the client to catch up to a reasonable position in the blockchain while I'm switching wallets around
162 2011-11-06 01:52:36 <Tuxavant> so i'll grab what blockexplorer has, wait for that, and die
163 2011-11-06 01:52:39 <Tuxavant> thanks guys
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172 2011-11-06 02:08:41 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 6d9502e6bc99 r186 / (3 files in 3 dirs): fix nullpointer in ShareExchange constructor.
173 2011-11-06 02:08:41 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * d16be0ba5f33 r187 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (2 files in 2 dirs):
174 2011-11-06 02:08:42 <CIA-34> poolserverj: import a couple of changes from default branch
175 2011-11-06 02:08:42 <CIA-34> poolserverj: Changeset Tag Branch User Date Summary
176 2011-11-06 02:08:42 <CIA-34> poolserverj: 185:bd0c3c652d69 shadders 2011-11-05 14:50 added db.connectionOptions property to allow users to add arbitrary connect paramenters to connection URL. made 'solution' field optional
177 2011-11-06 02:08:43 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * acbf68d92ff3 r188 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (conf/Conf.java db/worker/WorkerDBFetchEngine.java):
178 2011-11-06 02:08:43 <CIA-34> poolserverj: add column mappings to Conf in prep for db query declaration rewrite to use mapped columns.
179 2011-11-06 02:08:43 <CIA-34> poolserverj: add retry for worker db fetch. If connection fails close and reopen connection then retry query before throwing an exception.
180 2011-11-06 02:08:44 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 48638765058c r189 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (8 files in 5 dirs):
181 2011-11-06 02:08:44 <CIA-34> poolserverj: Update to share logging to retry failed connections. If the connection is still failed then shares are serialized to disk.
182 2011-11-06 02:08:45 <CIA-34> poolserverj: The ShareLogger thread periodically checks for shares on the disk and resubmits them to the database. This means shares can survive across a poolserverj restart if the DB is failed for that long.
183 2011-11-06 02:09:29 <CIA-34> poolserverj: THIS IS AN API BREAKING CHANGE. Any db.engine.shareLogging plugins that inherit from DefaultPreparedStatementSharesDBFlushEngine will need to have their method signatures updated.
184 2011-11-06 02:09:29 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 22ba8732be61 r190 /poolserverj-main/etc/lib/lib_non-maven/shadtools-sql-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar: update to lib needed for previous change
185 2011-11-06 02:10:38 <luke-jr> time for 2.0? :p
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229 2011-11-06 03:57:33 <cameron_temp> hello
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276 2011-11-06 06:10:13 <c_k> has the merged mining patch for bitcoind from vinced been integrated in to bitcoind yet?
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279 2011-11-06 06:17:44 <phantomcircuit> c_k, what makes you think it ever will be?
280 2011-11-06 06:19:11 <gjs278> yeah I doubt the officlal thing for merged mining would ever be included in the official bitcoind
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284 2011-11-06 06:32:43 <luke-jr> c_k: sure hope not
285 2011-11-06 06:32:50 <luke-jr> c_k: vinced's implementation sucks
286 2011-11-06 06:33:58 <luke-jr> the one I did is far simpler and reliable
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291 2011-11-06 07:16:19 <c_k> luke-jr: is there a thread about it somewhere?
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293 2011-11-06 07:17:51 <c_k> inirial implimentations are usually not perfect
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300 2011-11-06 07:53:55 <c_k> *initial
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307 2011-11-06 08:26:07 <c_k> luke: or even just a repo?
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311 2011-11-06 08:29:48 <urstroyer_> i think luke is refering to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47779.0
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324 2011-11-06 09:25:21 <c_k> urstroyer_: ah yeah cheers
325 2011-11-06 09:25:58 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
326 2011-11-06 09:31:48 <Diablo-D3> ;;ticker
327 2011-11-06 09:31:48 <gribble> Best bid: 2.9613, Best ask: 2.977, Bid-ask spread: 0.0157, Last trade: 2.96131, 24 hour volume: 54096, 24 hour low: 2.85, 24 hour high: 3.14
328 2011-11-06 09:32:12 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 2.96 * (2.25 * 0.69)
329 2011-11-06 09:32:12 <gribble> 4.5954
330 2011-11-06 09:32:26 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
331 2011-11-06 09:32:29 <gribble> Current Blocks: 152096 | Current Difficulty: 1203461.92638 | Next Difficulty At Block: 153215 | Next Difficulty In: 1119 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 18 hours, 48 minutes, and 39 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1203205.11548962 | Estimated Percent Change: -0.0213393447994
332 2011-11-06 09:40:58 <Diablo-D3> er
333 2011-11-06 09:41:01 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 2.96 * (2.25 + 0.69)
334 2011-11-06 09:41:02 <gribble> 8.7024
335 2011-11-06 09:44:30 <nathan7> 'morning, Diablo-D3
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339 2011-11-06 10:14:01 * Eliel looks confused as bitcoin-abe is importing block #152146 while bitcoind says latest block is #152104.
340 2011-11-06 10:15:03 <nathan7> magic
341 2011-11-06 10:17:34 <Eliel> the webinterface is showing correct block numbers though.
342 2011-11-06 10:17:40 <Eliel> perhaps it imports orphans too
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384 2011-11-06 12:44:36 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r12fb96d81010 /AUTHORS: kdomanski - gentoo ebuild.
385 2011-11-06 12:44:38 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: genjix * r174e0ec96fa3 /Makefile.am: bitcoin.sql installed to /usr/share/<package-name>
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442 2011-11-06 15:05:00 <rjk2> i just thought, on windows the blockchian is stored in the users' %appdata% - since it will be the same for all users, couldn't it be stored in some common location that all users can access?
443 2011-11-06 15:05:18 <rjk2> and store only user-specific stuff in %appdata%
444 2011-11-06 15:05:44 <rjk2> woiuld save a gigabyte or so of space per additional user
445 2011-11-06 15:05:44 <luke-jr> rjk2: security
446 2011-11-06 15:06:10 <luke-jr> rjk2: to do that sanely, you'd need to have a common "block chain data" server on the system
447 2011-11-06 15:06:20 <rjk2> ah, like a service
448 2011-11-06 15:06:23 <luke-jr> outside the control of non-administrators
449 2011-11-06 15:06:49 <rjk2> how much more difficult might it be to implement a service?
450 2011-11-06 15:06:55 <rjk2> (not that i am suggesting that)
451 2011-11-06 15:07:01 wasabi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
452 2011-11-06 15:07:57 <luke-jr> rjk2: you'd at least want to find a developer who was interested in Windows support
453 2011-11-06 15:08:13 <rjk2> lol true
454 2011-11-06 15:08:27 <rjk2> probably not enough demand for such a thing
455 2011-11-06 15:08:45 peck has joined
456 2011-11-06 15:08:46 <rjk2> probably won't be any more than 2 bitcoin users on any common system anyway
457 2011-11-06 15:09:06 <luke-jr> especially not Windows
458 2011-11-06 15:09:32 <luke-jr> on *nix, it would make sense
459 2011-11-06 15:09:47 <rjk2> yeah, fo rshell accounts say
460 2011-11-06 15:10:00 <rjk2> to save hosting space
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465 2011-11-06 15:44:46 <lianj> "probably" is nice :D
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512 2011-11-06 17:58:56 <genjix> luke-jr: here?
513 2011-11-06 17:59:34 <luke-jr> ?
514 2011-11-06 18:00:22 RobinPKR has joined
515 2011-11-06 18:01:50 <genjix> luke-jr: can you make kdomanski a member of the bitcoin-developers group on gitorious?
516 2011-11-06 18:02:04 <genjix> he wants to push some ebuilds
517 2011-11-06 18:02:35 <luke-jr> bitcoin-developers group != people with push to gentoo overlay
518 2011-11-06 18:03:16 <luke-jr> for ebuilds, a pull request would be more appropriate
519 2011-11-06 18:03:31 <luke-jr> merge request in gitorious terminology I guess
520 2011-11-06 18:04:39 <genjix> what does it matter? he wants to add some ebuilds and work on them without going through a middle-man
521 2011-11-06 18:06:31 <luke-jr> I'd prefer to at least do some QA before giving just anyone basically root on all bitcoin overlay users' systems… it's not like he's even in #bitcoin-gentoo ?
522 2011-11-06 18:06:31 <genjix> ok he'll make a merge request
523 2011-11-06 18:06:50 <genjix> kdomanski. he doesn't use irc much.
524 2011-11-06 18:07:00 <genjix> but if you want you can add him o jabber
525 2011-11-06 18:07:05 <genjix> what's your jabber?
526 2011-11-06 18:07:05 <luke-jr> sure
527 2011-11-06 18:07:12 <genjix> ill add you too
528 2011-11-06 18:07:14 <luke-jr> dashjr org , luke
529 2011-11-06 18:07:39 <genjix> luke
530 2011-11-06 18:07:47 <genjix> funny squirly symbol
531 2011-11-06 18:07:58 <genjix> dashjr - org right?
532 2011-11-06 18:08:21 Burgundy has joined
533 2011-11-06 18:08:46 <luke-jr> yes
534 2011-11-06 18:08:47 <genjix> genjix@jabber.org
535 2011-11-06 18:09:38 ej_h has joined
536 2011-11-06 18:11:22 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: at the end of the wikipedia page on pgp word list, there is a ref to mnemonic encoding
537 2011-11-06 18:11:34 <ThomasV> https://github.com/singpolyma/mnemonicode
538 2011-11-06 18:11:55 <ThomasV> it uses a larger dictionary, so that 32 bits -> 3 words
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551 2011-11-06 18:35:53 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Andrew Vorobyov master * rde51d3e / (4 files in 2 dirs): s/sys/util/g again - http://git.io/iG3sGA
552 2011-11-06 18:35:54 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * ra41e49a / (4 files in 2 dirs):
553 2011-11-06 18:35:54 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Merge pull request #44 from santacruz123/master
554 2011-11-06 18:35:54 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Another s/sys/util/g - http://git.io/Q3mqwA
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557 2011-11-06 18:44:07 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Kamil Domanski * rab94a2ca45ca gentoo/ (4 files in 2 dirs): added libbitcoin live ebuild + dependency (cppdb)
558 2011-11-06 18:44:09 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Kamil Domanski * rea4f0d894524 gentoo/dev-db/cppdb/ (Manifest cppdb-0.0.3.ebuild): dev-db/cppdb: fixed cmake args
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569 2011-11-06 19:24:17 <luke-jr> ]later tell gavin* maybe the binaries should be distributed independently? especially if they're static…
570 2011-11-06 19:24:23 <luke-jr> ;;later tell gavin* maybe the binaries should be distributed independently? especially if they're static…
571 2011-11-06 19:24:23 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
572 2011-11-06 19:24:41 wolfspra1l has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
573 2011-11-06 19:24:59 <genjix> ;;later tell * hello
574 2011-11-06 19:24:59 <gribble> Error: That is an invalid IRC nick. Please check your input.
575 2011-11-06 19:25:04 <genjix> ;;later tell a* hello
576 2011-11-06 19:25:04 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
577 2011-11-06 19:25:17 <genjix> lmao
578 2011-11-06 19:26:25 wolfspraul has joined
579 2011-11-06 19:26:29 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r974fc5a / (lib/db/mongo/storage.js lib/schema/index.js): Schema index no longer required. - http://git.io/bxa4Rg
580 2011-11-06 19:26:32 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rb9b4297 / (9 files in 5 dirs): New storage backend "Kyoto" - initial commit. - http://git.io/ku759Q
581 2011-11-06 19:26:32 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r2bc6701 / benchmark/copy.js : Added some string-based benchmarks. - http://git.io/Rvh_zQ
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592 2011-11-06 19:40:48 <neofutur> luke-jr: his complete nickname is gavinandresen
593 2011-11-06 19:44:02 cocktopu- is now known as cocktopus_
594 2011-11-06 19:44:09 <luke-jr> neofutur: that's fine. I don't care to look up the spellings :P
595 2011-11-06 19:45:30 BlueMatt has joined
596 2011-11-06 19:46:27 asomething_ has joined
597 2011-11-06 19:46:43 <asomething_> test
598 2011-11-06 19:47:02 <asomething_> no messages :)
599 2011-11-06 19:47:05 asomething_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
600 2011-11-06 19:47:14 <cjdelisle> Test Failed, please type "/exec reboot" to continue
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603 2011-11-06 19:51:28 cocktopus_ is now known as cocktopus
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607 2011-11-06 20:07:46 <phantomcircuit> ;;later tell *a* i enjoy cookies
608 2011-11-06 20:07:47 <gribble> Error: That is an invalid IRC nick. Please check your input.
609 2011-11-06 20:07:49 <phantomcircuit> aw
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614 2011-11-06 20:21:50 <genjix> ;;later tell s[]++ foo
615 2011-11-06 20:21:51 <gribble> Error: "" is not a valid command.
616 2011-11-06 20:22:03 <genjix> ;;later tell s... foo
617 2011-11-06 20:22:03 <gribble> Error: That is an invalid IRC nick. Please check your input.
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621 2011-11-06 20:41:43 <terrytibbs> luke-jr: Can you explain in more detail why you think Litecoin is a scam and felt the need to express that personal opinion of yours on the Bitcoin Wiki?
622 2011-11-06 20:42:19 <luke-jr> terrytibbs: because it serves no purpose other than being a pyramid scheme
623 2011-11-06 20:42:52 <terrytibbs> luke-jr: Are you aware of the fact that it follows the exact same principles as Bitcoin?
624 2011-11-06 20:43:09 <luke-jr> Bitcoin already serves the legitimate purpose.
625 2011-11-06 20:43:25 <luke-jr> duplication without innovation cannot serve the same purpose
626 2011-11-06 20:43:51 <terrytibbs> Clearly silver cannot co-exist in this universe, then?
627 2011-11-06 20:44:23 <luke-jr> silver does not serve the same purpose
628 2011-11-06 20:45:10 <terrytibbs> would you care to elaborate?
629 2011-11-06 20:45:46 <luke-jr> silver has significantly different properties to any other substance
630 2011-11-06 20:46:28 <ThomasV> bitcoin clones are as pointless as clones of jesus
631 2011-11-06 20:47:23 <genjix> litecoin is not a scam
632 2011-11-06 20:47:47 <terrytibbs> luke-jr: Correct me if I'm wrong, but this editorial by Jason Himmel says silver shares nearly all of gold's properties: http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/hommel080104.html
633 2011-11-06 20:47:48 <genjix> and it has a pretty nice innovation in the proof of work system
634 2011-11-06 20:48:15 <genjix> it's unfair to trash other people's work when they have good intentions
635 2011-11-06 20:48:47 dr_win has joined
636 2011-11-06 20:49:54 <luke-jr> terrytibbs: easily disproven
637 2011-11-06 20:50:07 <cjdelisle> silver is antiseptic, gold, not so much
638 2011-11-06 20:50:19 <luke-jr> genjix: it has a worse proof-of-work
639 2011-11-06 20:50:20 Edward_Black has joined
640 2011-11-06 20:50:30 <phantomcircuit> terrytibbs, silver tarnishes gold does not
641 2011-11-06 20:50:40 zapnap has joined
642 2011-11-06 20:50:45 <luke-jr> there's also a lot more silver to go around
643 2011-11-06 20:50:49 <terrytibbs> phantomcircuit: this is true
644 2011-11-06 20:50:59 <terrytibbs> this can all be compared to bitcoin and litecoin
645 2011-11-06 20:51:01 <ThomasV> luke-jr: even if it had better POW, bitcoin has historical precedence
646 2011-11-06 20:51:02 <sipa> bitcoin is an experiment
647 2011-11-06 20:51:05 <terrytibbs> they are similar, very much so
648 2011-11-06 20:51:12 <sipa> altenrative blockchains can be seen as further experimentations
649 2011-11-06 20:51:24 <luke-jr> terrytibbs: litecoin is just a lame clone that doesn't even try to fix any of the problems in bitcoin, and creates new problems
650 2011-11-06 20:51:24 <cjdelisle> I agree with sipa
651 2011-11-06 20:51:30 <Edward_Black> When people start comparing cryptocoins to metallic commodities, I become very very sad
652 2011-11-06 20:51:47 <ThomasV> Edward_Black: why?
653 2011-11-06 20:51:48 <genjix> luke-jr: another merge request btw for the gitorious from kdomanski
654 2011-11-06 20:51:53 <luke-jr> sipa: the problem is when people try to pass them off as legitimate currencies
655 2011-11-06 20:51:58 <sipa> luke-jr: indeed
656 2011-11-06 20:52:06 <Edward_Black> sipa: word
657 2011-11-06 20:52:19 <sipa> i agree there, and that is a danger to those who believe it
658 2011-11-06 20:52:27 <luke-jr> sipa: when they don't improve the situation, and are simple clones, passing them off as a currency is a pyramid scheme
659 2011-11-06 20:52:36 <terrytibbs> so... this makes it a pyramid scheme?
660 2011-11-06 20:52:38 <sipa> i haven't looked into litecoin in detail
661 2011-11-06 20:52:54 <luke-jr> litecoin is just bitcoin with an inferior proof-of-work
662 2011-11-06 20:52:56 <genjix> that was the case with iocoin, and i said so. but litecoin is much different
663 2011-11-06 20:53:06 <sipa> luke-jr: is litecoin the scrypt-based POW?
664 2011-11-06 20:53:07 <genjix> why is the proof of work inferior?
665 2011-11-06 20:53:09 <luke-jr> sipa: yes
666 2011-11-06 20:53:11 <genjix> sipa: yes
667 2011-11-06 20:53:21 <luke-jr> genjix: because it means you can't mass-mine with commodity hardware
668 2011-11-06 20:53:24 <sipa> i find that an interesting experiemnt, but i haven't followed it in detail
669 2011-11-06 20:53:33 <luke-jr> genjix: ie, only the rich corporations can create the equivalent of a GPU
670 2011-11-06 20:53:48 <Edward_Black> ThomasV because while both "metals of value" and "crypto-coins" are actually commodities (and not "currencies"!), they are so profoundly different (especially as far as comparissons with gold are concerned - not a single other commodity has trading patterns of gold!) that it is, at the very least, grivously misleading analogy
671 2011-11-06 20:54:05 <genjix> terrytibbs: correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't scrypt supposed to be *more* of an equalizer than bitcoin's aglorithm?
672 2011-11-06 20:54:32 <luke-jr> genjix: it has the inverse effect if you think about it
673 2011-11-06 20:54:39 <sipa> the only risk with scrypt - imho - is that it may make it a more viable target for botnets
674 2011-11-06 20:54:44 <Edward_Black> luke-jr , with all due respect, bitcoin is more of a legitimate commodity than legitimate currency
675 2011-11-06 20:54:47 <cjdelisle> Edward_Black: you joined halfway through, it started as with a claim that if litecoin is a scam because it duplicated bitcoin then surely silver is a "scam" because it duplicates gold.
676 2011-11-06 20:54:59 <genjix> my thread before about ixcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=36701.0
677 2011-11-06 20:55:02 <luke-jr> there is no (known) algorithm that is actually resistant to specialization; scrypt merely puts that specialization outside the hands of ordinary people
678 2011-11-06 20:55:08 <genjix> read all my points... they don't apply to litecoin
679 2011-11-06 20:55:24 <genjix> luke-jr: interesting.
680 2011-11-06 20:55:41 <terrytibbs> luke-jr: if we rewind a little, can you explain again how litecoin is a pyramid scheme and why you felt the need to post this in a public wiki?
681 2011-11-06 20:55:53 <luke-jr> - They only made one minor modification to the source code (changing 50 -> 96) <-- true of litecoin
682 2011-11-06 20:56:04 <luke-jr> - Already mined 400k IxCoins themselves. <-- not true of i0coin (admitted a scam already)
683 2011-11-06 20:56:10 <sipa> i don't see how it can be a pyramid scheme, unless you consider bitcoin a pyramid scheme itself (which i don't)
684 2011-11-06 20:56:15 <luke-jr> - Copied and leveraged bitcoin community with minimal input. Product doesn't have much value on its own. <-- true of litecoin
685 2011-11-06 20:56:15 <justmoon> terrytibbs: it's the bitcoin wiki - we can't pick favorites among other currencies
686 2011-11-06 20:56:36 <terrytibbs> justmoon: it is not a place for unfounded personal opinion
687 2011-11-06 20:56:42 <luke-jr> sipa: Bitcoin would be a pyramid scheme if it didn't have potential (due to providing value)
688 2011-11-06 20:56:46 <justmoon> terrytibbs, what exactly did luke write?
689 2011-11-06 20:56:47 <ThomasV> hey, this is the #bitcoin-dev channel, not #shitcoin
690 2011-11-06 20:57:04 <luke-jr> ThomasV: my point exactly
691 2011-11-06 20:57:05 <Edward_Black> cjdelisle - I know - a buddy who knows I am into alt-currencies (full disclosure - NOT litecoins) sent me the wiki link over AIM
692 2011-11-06 20:57:11 <sipa> luke-jr: for it to be a pyramid scheme it has to promise profit to newcomers
693 2011-11-06 20:57:20 <luke-jr> sipa: it does.
694 2011-11-06 20:57:24 <luke-jr> well
695 2011-11-06 20:57:25 <terrytibbs> I quote the full page content, as written by luke-jr: "Litecoin is a scam"
696 2011-11-06 20:57:28 <luke-jr> to an extent
697 2011-11-06 20:57:37 <luke-jr> terrytibbs: I only put that because I couldn't delete the page ;)
698 2011-11-06 20:57:46 <luke-jr> it is in any case off-topic on a Bitcoin wiki
699 2011-11-06 20:57:50 <genjix> that's just vandalism
700 2011-11-06 20:58:00 <genjix> calling it a scam is a weasel word
701 2011-11-06 20:58:10 <justmoon> yeah, I'd have to agree with amir
702 2011-11-06 20:58:15 <luke-jr> you would prefer "pyramid scheme"? :p
703 2011-11-06 20:58:20 <cjdelisle> more like trolling, and rather successful bt the look of the backscroll :)
704 2011-11-06 20:58:21 <sipa> no
705 2011-11-06 20:58:24 <genjix> loaded with many meanings. if you have some disagreements with litecoin then state them why with an explanation
706 2011-11-06 20:58:33 <sipa> i would prefer a short page listing the differences, and its purpose
707 2011-11-06 20:58:38 <genjix> yep
708 2011-11-06 20:58:38 <luke-jr> genjix: the point is that it doesn't belong on the *Bitcoin* wiki
709 2011-11-06 20:58:40 <sipa> objective
710 2011-11-06 20:58:50 <justmoon> it should show the pros and cons of the different pow system primarily
711 2011-11-06 20:59:13 <copumpkin> a comparison against alternatives is perfectly justified on the bitcoin wiki
712 2011-11-06 20:59:19 <sipa> i agree
713 2011-11-06 20:59:22 <Edward_Black> With all due respect, I think that the old version which just linked to offsites and stuff was better
714 2011-11-06 20:59:26 * luke-jr has no objection to a "Litecoin" page making it clear that it's an experiment in scrypt and not intended to be a competing currency
715 2011-11-06 21:00:17 <justmoon> luke-jr, from the litecoin site: "Litecoin is the result of some of us who joined together on IRC in an effort to create a real alternative currency" - sounds to me like it is *intended* to be a currency
716 2011-11-06 21:00:17 <sipa> i have trouble with, as a bitcoin-promoting person, claiming that altenrative attempts are just experiments, while ours is the one true currencies
717 2011-11-06 21:00:25 <sipa> they're just all experiments to me
718 2011-11-06 21:00:29 <luke-jr> justmoon: then it's clearly a scam
719 2011-11-06 21:00:35 * Edward_Black throws a tantrum due to the persistent implication that cryptocurrencies are currencies and not exotic digital commodities, despite having trading patterns of peculiar valuable commodities
720 2011-11-06 21:00:37 <copumpkin> whether they're experiments or not depends on whether you have money in them :)
721 2011-11-06 21:01:59 <justmoon> I think a lot of bitcoin's value comes from being the first of its kind. if another currency is better I can definitely see it taking over - personally I think litecoin is not better, but that's what the wiki page should probably debate
722 2011-11-06 21:02:25 <luke-jr> justmoon: any improvements can be applied to Bitcoin 2.0 when the block chain forks
723 2011-11-06 21:02:35 <terrytibbs> Edward_Black: semantics...
724 2011-11-06 21:02:38 <genjix> bitcoin has a first entrant advantage.
725 2011-11-06 21:02:40 <justmoon> luke-jr, hmm, I see your point
726 2011-11-06 21:02:56 <sipa> the problem is not with objective improvements
727 2011-11-06 21:03:12 <sipa> where ther eis no discussion about
728 2011-11-06 21:03:21 <copumpkin> semantics = meaning
729 2011-11-06 21:03:29 <sipa> but if you need the entire community to agree about a change, very few changes will pass
730 2011-11-06 21:03:29 <copumpkin> minutiae :P
731 2011-11-06 21:03:34 <justmoon> luke-jr, but sometimes improvements aren't obviously improvements. somebody might improve something and we reject it because we think it's a bad idea - then they start their own currency and it turns out to be more popular, eventually taking over
732 2011-11-06 21:03:43 <Edward_Black> terrytibbs nope, but we can continue that in PM if you are interested in going through details (TLDR version: currencies have special trading and use patterns which bitcoin and other coins have not demonstrated so far)
733 2011-11-06 21:03:45 <sipa> justmoon: exactly
734 2011-11-06 21:04:17 <genjix> also i think small problems with bitcoin wouldn't get fixed. there's too much inertia against small changes
735 2011-11-06 21:04:21 <luke-jr> justmoon: that hasn't happened.
736 2011-11-06 21:04:42 <luke-jr> genjix: small problems can be fixed at the same time as big ones
737 2011-11-06 21:04:46 <genjix> it would have to be a huge problem or gain to cause a bitcoin fork to be popular
738 2011-11-06 21:04:52 <sipa> many people feel a higher block frequency would be good
739 2011-11-06 21:04:54 <sipa> i'm not sure myself
740 2011-11-06 21:05:06 <luke-jr> genjix: we have to increase the block size limit someday. that's a good opportunity to get in 100s of other (well-tested) changes
741 2011-11-06 21:05:06 <justmoon> well bitcoin itself is kind of like that - I'm sure satoshi would have changed the existing banking system if there was any way to do it
742 2011-11-06 21:05:07 <genjix> nah that's silly.
743 2011-11-06 21:05:33 <luke-jr> sipa: a parallel system for verifying transactions before they hit blocks sounds godo
744 2011-11-06 21:05:34 <genjix> about higher block frequency i mean.
745 2011-11-06 21:05:35 <luke-jr> good*
746 2011-11-06 21:05:47 <sipa> still, i think blockchain with very short block times are an interesting way to see how viable that idea is
747 2011-11-06 21:05:55 <sipa> luke-jr: maybe
748 2011-11-06 21:06:20 * copumpkin waits for godo
749 2011-11-06 21:06:24 <copumpkin> +t :)
750 2011-11-06 21:06:28 <sipa> or a future where payment processors send txs directly to miners they have deals with, bypassing the tx-propagation system in the p2p protocol completely
751 2011-11-06 21:06:30 <genjix> you can significantly speed up blockchain organisation/storage with a low block frequency as there exists now
752 2011-11-06 21:07:01 <sipa> yes, what we need are payment processors, not a change in the base protocol
753 2011-11-06 21:07:07 <luke-jr> [15:52:38] <sipa> or a future where payment processors send txs directly to miners they have deals with, bypassing the tx-propagation system in the p2p protocol completely <-- already reality
754 2011-11-06 21:07:09 <sipa> those can deliver high tx speed if needed
755 2011-11-06 21:07:14 <sipa> luke-jr: is it?
756 2011-11-06 21:07:22 <luke-jr> sipa: yes
757 2011-11-06 21:07:45 <justmoon> gox does it with eligius, right?
758 2011-11-06 21:07:46 larsivi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
759 2011-11-06 21:07:50 <luke-jr> yep
760 2011-11-06 21:07:52 <genjix> read the EEC SEPA payments paper
761 2011-11-06 21:08:08 <genjix> talks about how the banks work to move funds around quickly.
762 2011-11-06 21:08:19 <genjix> would be a good system to duplicate with bitcoin.
763 2011-11-06 21:08:51 <genjix> short: they use Clearing. Settlements. Manager
764 2011-11-06 21:09:05 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Kamil Domanski * r020d99836570 gentoo/ (4 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/libbitcoin: dependencies fix
765 2011-11-06 21:09:07 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Kamil Domanski * ra55ae77060ff gentoo/app-crypt/subvertx/ (Manifest subvertx-9999.ebuild): added app-crypt/subvertx
766 2011-11-06 21:09:08 <justmoon> genjix, can you point me to the exact paper you're talking about? googling reveals tons of documents
767 2011-11-06 21:09:09 <genjix> Clearing = securities. Settlements = transfer of funds.
768 2011-11-06 21:09:18 <genjix> justmoon: ok one sec
769 2011-11-06 21:09:22 <justmoon> genjix, thx
770 2011-11-06 21:09:51 <genjix> http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/knowledge_bank_download.cfm?file=EPC125-05%20SCT%20RB%20v5.0%20Approved.pdf
771 2011-11-06 21:10:20 <genjix> the diagram on page 11 is good
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774 2011-11-06 21:16:10 <justmoon> genjix, for the clearing you need a certain amount of trust though, no? so in the bitcoin world this would be along the lines of instapay (i.e. explicitly trusted senders)?
775 2011-11-06 21:16:28 <genjix> no
776 2011-11-06 21:16:35 <genjix> you have a third party as the CSM
777 2011-11-06 21:16:56 <genjix> the clearing and settlement can be separate parties also but often it's the same party
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779 2011-11-06 21:17:35 <justmoon> alright, so let's say I'm an anonymous bitcoin user who has 20 BTC, can I send them instantly to somebody else?
780 2011-11-06 21:18:00 <genjix> only with a bitcoin bank unless you register with a recognised CSM
781 2011-11-06 21:18:24 <justmoon> registering means.. providing my real identity?
782 2011-11-06 21:18:26 <sipa> so, you need a trusted sender (=bank_ who does the transaction for you
783 2011-11-06 21:18:38 <genjix> no
784 2011-11-06 21:18:53 <genjix> the CSM holds a reserve from all the banks to cover cleared transactions
785 2011-11-06 21:19:04 <justmoon> ok I get it
786 2011-11-06 21:19:24 <genjix> when the balances are settled then the reserve is released back to the originator's balance on the CSM
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788 2011-11-06 21:19:41 <genjix> however it does require the CSM to be trusted.
789 2011-11-06 21:20:10 <genjix> although with CHECKMULTISIG that trust can be distributed
790 2011-11-06 21:20:24 <genjix> so boom. FPI for bitcoin
791 2011-11-06 21:20:25 <justmoon> the reserves only have to cover the transaction volume for 10 minutes though
792 2011-11-06 21:20:36 <sipa> somewhat more
793 2011-11-06 21:20:40 <justmoon> yeah
794 2011-11-06 21:20:41 <genjix> yeah more
795 2011-11-06 21:20:44 <justmoon> but you get the point
796 2011-11-06 21:20:58 <justmoon> you only have to cover the time until the block chain trustworthiness takes over
797 2011-11-06 21:21:05 <genjix> the csm could do their own heuristics for how many confirms they need
798 2011-11-06 21:21:15 <genjix> yep
799 2011-11-06 21:21:43 <justmoon> cool stuff - let me know if anybody does anything like that - trucoin is working along similar lines
800 2011-11-06 21:22:04 <genjix> so a long term user of the CSM may get less needed confirms
801 2011-11-06 21:22:32 <genjix> heh well it's too early for the bitcoin world.
802 2011-11-06 21:22:39 <sipa> uhu
803 2011-11-06 21:22:44 <genjix> we barely have a coherent toolkit
804 2011-11-06 21:24:01 <justmoon> genjix: we should probably get back to work then :D
805 2011-11-06 21:24:21 <genjix> yep
806 2011-11-06 21:24:22 <genjix> :)
807 2011-11-06 21:26:27 bodom has joined
808 2011-11-06 21:27:00 <bodom> Hi there. It looks like the testnet faucet is stuck. Can anoybody please send me some testnet coins?
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836 2011-11-06 22:47:04 <sipa> BlueMatt: present?
837 2011-11-06 22:47:19 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea
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839 2011-11-06 22:48:20 <sipa> in crypter.h, it says "Wallet Private Keys are then encrypted using AES-256-CBC with the double-sha256 of the private key as the IV, and the master key's key as the encryption key."
840 2011-11-06 22:49:21 <BlueMatt> ok?
841 2011-11-06 22:49:57 <sipa> i think that should be the double-sha256 of the public key
842 2011-11-06 22:50:09 <sipa> and furthermore, i can't find the code for that
843 2011-11-06 22:50:11 <BlueMatt> oh, heh
844 2011-11-06 22:50:52 <BlueMatt> might have changed before commit, one minute...
845 2011-11-06 22:50:57 <sipa> the comments say that chIV is unused, but it seems to be used alright
846 2011-11-06 22:51:09 <sipa> so we're using the same key and the same IV for all wallet keys
847 2011-11-06 22:51:49 <BlueMatt> no, it uses double-sha256 of pubkey
848 2011-11-06 22:52:01 <sipa> i must be reading over it
849 2011-11-06 22:52:16 <BlueMatt> well it was written with that in mind...Im still looking for code
850 2011-11-06 22:52:22 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
851 2011-11-06 22:52:53 <sipa> i know what it was intended to be, but i really can't find it :)
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853 2011-11-06 22:53:15 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/keystore.cpp#L97
854 2011-11-06 22:53:24 <BlueMatt> when it adds the key it uses pubkey hash as iv
855 2011-11-06 22:53:33 <sipa> oh right
856 2011-11-06 22:53:39 <sipa> i was just looking in crypter
857 2011-11-06 22:53:43 <BlueMatt> (also see 173)
858 2011-11-06 22:53:51 <sipa> never mind, glad i'm wrong!
859 2011-11-06 22:54:08 <BlueMatt> yea, you scared me a bit there...
860 2011-11-06 22:54:29 <sipa> but it's a bit confusing to see the comment for it in crypter, while the implementation is in a higher layer (keystore)
861 2011-11-06 22:54:42 <BlueMatt> thats true...
862 2011-11-06 22:54:56 <BlueMatt> the comment is also wrong, so it should be fixed either way...
863 2011-11-06 22:55:24 <sipa> i'm doing an add-some-comments commit, so i'll change it along with it
864 2011-11-06 22:55:30 <BlueMatt> thanks
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