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   4 2011-11-07 00:03:42 <denisx> so, I ported pushpoold to libevent2
   5 2011-11-07 00:04:37 <gmaxwell> denisx: did you fix the fact that it doesn't use async interfaces to speak to the databases?
   6 2011-11-07 00:04:45 <denisx> no
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 159 2011-11-07 07:24:58 ThomasV has joined
 160 2011-11-07 07:25:52 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: http://s3.ecdsa.org/seed.png
 161 2011-11-07 07:26:11 * Diablo-D3 hacks ThomasV 
 162 2011-11-07 07:26:37 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 163 2011-11-07 07:26:50 <Diablo-D3> also
 164 2011-11-07 07:26:54 <Diablo-D3> SIGMA GARLIC
 165 2011-11-07 07:27:12 <Diablo-D3> sigma garlic has a very high ramirez value
 166 2011-11-07 07:27:12 CaptainDDL has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 167 2011-11-07 07:27:28 <ThomasV> yes, definitely a correlation
 168 2011-11-07 07:27:28 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 171 2011-11-07 07:28:06 <ThomasV> in another trial I had "frank" and "sinatra" in the same sequence
 172 2011-11-07 07:28:37 CaptainDDL has joined
 173 2011-11-07 07:28:49 <Diablo-D3> :D
 174 2011-11-07 07:31:08 <ThomasV> I decided not to use it for the screenshot :)
 175 2011-11-07 07:34:13 jackmcbarn has joined
 176 2011-11-07 07:35:47 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: Pretty great. It's perhaps not clear that you can remember either the hex or the mnemonic.
 177 2011-11-07 07:40:11 <ThomasV> well, I initially used the term 'corresponding' instead of 'equivalent'
 178 2011-11-07 07:40:23 <ThomasV> but I agree, it's not obvious
 179 2011-11-07 07:40:24 <gmaxwell> If you don't have one already, you might want to add an extra mnemonic word which is simply the sum of all the others (mod whatever the size of the wordlist) as a check digit.. which will enable you to detect a screwed up one as well as recover it.
 180 2011-11-07 07:41:05 <ThomasV> an error correcting word code :-)
 181 2011-11-07 07:41:07 <gmaxwell> I see you have 128 bits of hex there.. but 12 words
 182 2011-11-07 07:41:09 molecular has joined
 183 2011-11-07 07:41:19 <ThomasV> yes, I don't use pgp
 184 2011-11-07 07:41:31 <ThomasV> I infringe a patent instead :-)
 185 2011-11-07 07:41:32 <Diablo-D3> what, you odnt have enough words?
 186 2011-11-07 07:41:46 <gmaxwell> so thats ... 10.6666 bits per word?
 187 2011-11-07 07:41:47 <ThomasV> google 'mnemonic encoding'
 188 2011-11-07 07:42:19 <ThomasV> it's a small dict of 1626 words
 189 2011-11-07 07:42:21 <gmaxwell> ah 32 bits into three words.
 190 2011-11-07 07:43:33 <ThomasV> it can be argued that it's a trivial patent
 191 2011-11-07 07:44:12 <gmaxwell> Know what the patent number is?
 192 2011-11-07 07:44:21 <ThomasV> just google 'mnemonic encoding'
 193 2011-11-07 07:44:29 r4m has joined
 194 2011-11-07 07:44:33 <gmaxwell> (e.g. if what they patented was mostly the list of words then it would be simple and prudent to change it)
 195 2011-11-07 07:45:06 <ThomasV> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5892470/description.html
 196 2011-11-07 07:45:46 <gmaxwell> Well, claim one can be easily avoided in the implemention. (haven't read the other ones yet)
 197 2011-11-07 07:45:51 jackmcbarn has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 199 2011-11-07 07:46:47 <ThomasV> the list of words is here: https://github.com/singpolyma/mnemonicode
 200 2011-11-07 07:46:54 <gmaxwell> Three (and the computer-medium form of it) is the nasty one.
 201 2011-11-07 07:47:26 <gmaxwell> Claim one and two can be avoided by just changing how you compute it (e.g. using repeated subtraction in the encoder instead of division)
 202 2011-11-07 07:48:28 <Diablo-D3> wat
 203 2011-11-07 07:48:30 <gmaxwell> For three I'd prefer to add a tiny amount of inefficiency by adding one word to the list.
 204 2011-11-07 07:48:58 <gmaxwell> (there may be other ways to avoid the claim, but making hte numberbase non-identical is so easy and harmless)
 205 2011-11-07 07:50:05 <coderrr> i wonder if you could make it easier to remember by using short phrases instead of words
 206 2011-11-07 07:50:05 <gmaxwell> (also because the inefficiency slays the other independant claims too— e.g. a "unique representation"
 207 2011-11-07 07:50:22 <gmaxwell> coderrr: you lose entropy that way and make it bigger...
 208 2011-11-07 07:50:24 <ThomasV> but I think the patent claims the method on arbitrary dictionaries. which would include the pgp word list, it's just another base
 209 2011-11-07 07:50:54 jackmcbarn has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 210 2011-11-07 07:51:12 <coderrr> gmaxwell, how do you lose entropy? if you use a phrase in place of a word, they're both just a unique ID
 211 2011-11-07 07:51:54 <coderrr> and if you have 100k phrases versus 1k words, you need less phrases and maybe end up with similar # of total words ?
 212 2011-11-07 07:52:02 <coderrr> but yea maybe im wrong, hadnt thot it through
 213 2011-11-07 07:52:02 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: nah, it doesn't. claim two requires multiplication in the decoding, one requires division in the encoding, three requires there is a plurality of words which combine to form the base of the number you're encoding.
 214 2011-11-07 07:52:11 <gmaxwell> (e.g. in PGP words you encode one number into one word)
 215 2011-11-07 07:52:31 <gmaxwell> I suspect that couldn't patent one word one number due to prior art, but I didn't look at the prior art they cited.
 216 2011-11-07 07:53:06 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I am not sure if it is worth adding an error correcting code. this is not a situation where you want to send the key to someone over an unreliable channel, and where the other party can ask you to send it again if it's not correct
 217 2011-11-07 07:53:24 <ThomasV> if it's not correct, you are just screwed
 218 2011-11-07 07:54:09 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
 219 2011-11-07 07:54:43 <ThomasV> the wallet recovery procedure will stop because it will see that there are no coins at this address
 220 2011-11-07 07:55:00 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: Perhaps, though adding a tiny amount of additional length isn't costly. And you'll know for sure it was a typo.
 221 2011-11-07 07:55:50 <gmaxwell> you could even just make it a single word.. take all other words, convert them to numbers 0-1625 and take mod 1625 of the result. Thats your last word.
 222 2011-11-07 07:57:40 <ThomasV> it makes it 13 words instead of 12... that's the number of the devil
 223 2011-11-07 07:58:19 <gmaxwell> you could just display a number at the end then ... 12 words and a number? heh
 224 2011-11-07 07:59:16 * ThomasV patents that idea
 225 2011-11-07 08:01:44 <ThomasV> ok, bbl
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 231 2011-11-07 08:32:07 <GoodAD> how many block now?
 232 2011-11-07 08:32:23 <GoodAD> 150600?
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 238 2011-11-07 08:47:06 <min0r> how come it takes only a few mins for bitcoin 0.4 to download blocks 0-140,000... but after 140,000... it takes forever?
 239 2011-11-07 08:48:32 <gmaxwell> min0r: because there is fairly little activity early on.
 240 2011-11-07 08:48:37 <gmaxwell> min0r: and lots more later.
 241 2011-11-07 08:48:53 <gmaxwell> And most of the time is spent validating not downloading (though more is downloaded too)
 242 2011-11-07 08:49:01 <min0r> heh, that makes sense...
 243 2011-11-07 08:49:20 <GoodAD> how many block now 151112?
 244 2011-11-07 08:49:49 <gmaxwell> GoodAD: you can look at sites like https://blockexplorer.com/ to see. Its never to far behind.
 245 2011-11-07 08:49:53 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
 246 2011-11-07 08:49:54 <gribble> 152219
 247 2011-11-07 08:50:03 <min0r> gmaxwell, on macosx, bitcoin is taking about 35% of CPU, and im seeing tons of disk activity... this normal?
 248 2011-11-07 08:50:06 <GoodAD> merci
 249 2011-11-07 08:50:20 <gmaxwell> min0r: it is during initial syncup. Once it's in sync then it should be fairly little.
 250 2011-11-07 08:50:41 <gmaxwell> min0r: all that disk activity is being spend finding old transactions which the newly recieved blocks are spending.
 251 2011-11-07 08:50:56 <gmaxwell> (and writing the new data to disk synchronously)
 252 2011-11-07 08:52:54 <min0r> gmaxwell, ive heard talk of eventually hashing the whole blockchain up to a certain block when it becomes too big... u think that will happen?
 253 2011-11-07 08:53:05 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 254 2011-11-07 08:53:56 <gmaxwell> No. I mean— it might be an option. But any kind of summery requires that you trust the party that gave you the summary.
 255 2011-11-07 08:54:18 <gmaxwell> Of course, there is pruning which you can do to reduce storage, but it doesnt reduce the initial syncup time.
 256 2011-11-07 08:54:32 <min0r> also, would it ever be possible to speed up block generation if all clients agreed to such a thing? or is that part of the code impossible to update?
 257 2011-11-07 08:54:40 <gmaxwell> min0r: I expect that when lite clients of varrious kinds become mature most people who would care about syncup time would use those.
 258 2011-11-07 08:54:57 <gmaxwell> min0r: You could replace bitcoin with paypal if all clients update.
 259 2011-11-07 08:55:14 <gmaxwell> But speeding up block generation isn't even desirable.
 260 2011-11-07 08:55:33 <min0r> how about from a brick-and-mortar POS angle?
 261 2011-11-07 08:55:35 <gmaxwell> (well, it's desired by people who don't understand the tradeoffs of the system)
 262 2011-11-07 08:55:49 <min0r> i.e. restaurants, etc
 263 2011-11-07 08:55:59 <gmaxwell> min0r: speeding up the chain wouldn't make POS much better, and there are many other solutions for POS.
 264 2011-11-07 08:56:44 <min0r> yah , i think ive seen some 3rd parties that guarantee 0 confirmation transactions for a fee somewhere...
 265 2011-11-07 08:56:47 <gmaxwell> I posed a list with several here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28565.msg359948#msg359948
 266 2011-11-07 08:56:57 <gmaxwell> But I could probably add three or four more now.
 267 2011-11-07 08:57:01 <min0r> shorter block generation = less secure?
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 270 2011-11-07 08:58:04 <min0r> btw, what do you think of litecoin (using scrypt instead of SHA?)
 271 2011-11-07 08:58:26 <gmaxwell> min0r: even at 2 minutes it would be unacceptable for most POS... and yes, shorter times reduce security and increase disk usage (even for lite clients, which must know the headers). Also, short times risk creating perverse incentives like encouraging miners not to process txn because they can't process many in the time between blocks.
 272 2011-11-07 08:58:59 <min0r> i sort of wish bitcoin did that from the get-go... it seems like its harder to gather a monopoly on mining if you must be CPU based
 273 2011-11-07 08:59:03 <JFK911> 2 minutes?  it used to take DAYS to process credit card transactions.
 274 2011-11-07 08:59:07 <JFK911> bring back the imprinter for bitcoins!
 275 2011-11-07 08:59:16 <gmaxwell> min0r: I had advocated scrypt for bitcoin once a long time back and was talked out of it: giving a monopoly to botnet operators is a bad thing considering how easily bought they are.
 276 2011-11-07 08:59:18 <min0r> whereas something with a few mil can just make an ASIC farm and snag 50% of BTC
 277 2011-11-07 08:59:43 <gmaxwell> min0r: scrypt as used by those chains (e.g. litecoin) does _NOT_ prevent that.
 278 2011-11-07 09:00:36 <min0r> gmaxwell, hrmm, good point... tho there are now botnets/worms that control GPUs
 279 2011-11-07 09:00:45 <gmaxwell> Thats my other concern about litecoin. I'm concerned that some funny business went on with the scrypt parameter selection. The memory used by it is unusually small, _maybe_ enough to frustrate gpu implementations (though Diablo-D3 doesn't even think that) but it's not too big to prevent fast FPGA implementations.
 280 2011-11-07 09:01:15 <min0r> really? then whats the point of using it? lol
 281 2011-11-07 09:01:31 <gmaxwell> If it were really intended to be CPU only it should be using tens of megabytes per hashing instance.. it's using more like 128 kilobits.
 282 2011-11-07 09:01:55 <gmaxwell> It's small enough that you should be able to implement it without external memory of the FPGAs people are using for mining.
 283 2011-11-07 09:02:15 <min0r> hrmm, good to know, thanks for the info...
 284 2011-11-07 09:02:42 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you're correct, I dont think its enough to matter
 285 2011-11-07 09:03:09 <Diablo-D3> the worst case is it limits how many runs I can do per workgroup or such
 286 2011-11-07 09:03:11 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure whats up, I sent art an email asking about it— since he's apparently the source of the scrypt they're all using, and he also did the first bitcoin mining fpgas so he should be fully aware of the dynamics there.  Maybe I'm missing something.
 287 2011-11-07 09:04:52 plutonic_ has joined
 288 2011-11-07 09:05:59 <min0r> IMO these alternate blockchains are pointless.... the only way there would be a serious competitor to BTC would be if someone comes up with a chain that can't be 'gamed' by a small group of miners
 289 2011-11-07 09:06:22 <Diablo-D3> min0r: that'd be impossible
 290 2011-11-07 09:06:30 <Diablo-D3> because you're defining the problemw rong
 291 2011-11-07 09:06:37 <Diablo-D3> 1 hash == 1 attempt, period
 292 2011-11-07 09:06:40 <Diablo-D3> you cant outgame that.
 293 2011-11-07 09:06:43 <gmaxwell> Or rather, if it were known to be possible we'd have that instead of bitcoin.
 294 2011-11-07 09:07:09 <Diablo-D3> if you start just giving yourself more hashpower, you are NOT winning
 295 2011-11-07 09:07:12 <Diablo-D3> hashpower is expensive
 296 2011-11-07 09:07:24 <Diablo-D3> and the more you have, the more time and money you have to spend to maintain it
 297 2011-11-07 09:07:32 <gmaxwell> People have been trying to solve this problem hard since the 80s.. and they had access to all the tools we do today. Many people believed that sybil proof trustless distributed systems were _impossible_ until bitcoin proved that wrong.
 298 2011-11-07 09:07:36 <Diablo-D3> and btc diff ends up fucking you in the end as well
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 301 2011-11-07 09:08:27 <min0r> good point...
 302 2011-11-07 09:09:10 <min0r> so, what do you guys think the main barriers are to seeing mainstream BTC adoption?  what has to happen for more retailers to use it (which, of course is critical to its long-term success)
 303 2011-11-07 09:09:28 <min0r> price stability?
 304 2011-11-07 09:09:47 <Diablo-D3> min0r: generally? no market.
 305 2011-11-07 09:09:57 <Diablo-D3> when I can btc amazon and newegg, then its mainstream
 306 2011-11-07 09:10:00 <Diablo-D3> and not a moment before that.
 307 2011-11-07 09:10:14 <gmaxwell> Maturity in general. Price stability isn't really an issue on its own— since if we had a big enough enviroment you could have traders that sell exchange contracts.
 308 2011-11-07 09:11:07 iocor has joined
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 310 2011-11-07 09:12:15 <min0r> diablo: whats going to make amazon and newegg adopt BTC? how do we get there? and whats stopping everyone from adopting BTC now?
 311 2011-11-07 09:12:18 E-sense has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 312 2011-11-07 09:13:11 <min0r> gmaxwell, if you had to put a % chance on seeing newegg accept BTC within 5 years, what would you guess at?
 313 2011-11-07 09:13:25 <gmaxwell> I couldn't guess.
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 315 2011-11-07 09:13:50 <gmaxwell> I also don't know how critial that is... I think that if someone offered a debt card that used bitcoin it wouldn't matter so much if newegg didn't.
 316 2011-11-07 09:14:03 <gmaxwell> And that would allow the bitcoin userbase to grow until newegg does.
 317 2011-11-07 09:14:03 <Diablo-D3> min0r: its a chicken and egg problem
 318 2011-11-07 09:14:12 <Diablo-D3> and you'll have to solve both simulaniously
 319 2011-11-07 09:14:24 <min0r> gmaxwell, thats a good idea...
 320 2011-11-07 09:14:37 <min0r> is anyone doing that?
 321 2011-11-07 09:14:46 iocor has joined
 322 2011-11-07 09:14:58 <min0r> ive seen people sell those prepaid mastercards, but at insane premiums -- 20%+
 323 2011-11-07 09:15:06 <gmaxwell> mtgox talked about doing it—  ... well there is one, but the fee is kinda crazy... like 10% or something.
 324 2011-11-07 09:15:28 <gmaxwell> I dunno what fee would make it sensible.. perhaps 1-2%
 325 2011-11-07 09:17:24 <min0r> gox would be the perfect place to do it
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 328 2011-11-07 09:21:52 <min0r> btw, any theories on what happened to satoshi?  cashed out a million coins at $30 and living on a beach somwhere? ;)
 329 2011-11-07 09:23:23 <Diablo-D3> he never existed to begin with
 330 2011-11-07 09:23:49 <gjs278> he is from pokemon
 331 2011-11-07 09:23:58 <gjs278> he spent his gains on playing cards
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 347 2011-11-07 10:10:35 <coderrr> gmaxwell, heh, "zbekistan had official denial them will possible architecture estruction and blade debris case represented"
 348 2011-11-07 10:11:05 <coderrr> that was my two word phrase encoding of the same # thomasv did
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 351 2011-11-07 10:20:21 <epscy> min0r: there needs to be a compelling use for bitcoin, something which makes people want to use BTC rather than government backed money
 352 2011-11-07 10:21:14 <epscy> this is why i think it will have a hard time taking off in the west
 353 2011-11-07 10:21:49 <epscy> but there are many places in the world where people don't have access to basic banking
 354 2011-11-07 10:22:01 jackmcbarn has joined
 355 2011-11-07 10:22:26 <epscy> with computers getting cheaper (see raspberry pi) bitcoin has shot in the developing world
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 357 2011-11-07 10:23:45 <sipa> i think bitcoii has one indisputable advantage to traditional money -  at leat potdntially: complex transactions aka contracts
 358 2011-11-07 10:23:51 <sipa> bitcoin
 359 2011-11-07 10:24:49 <sipa> at least potentially
 360 2011-11-07 10:25:17 <lianj> epscy: we have yet to see the raspberry pi ;)
 361 2011-11-07 10:30:16 dbe has joined
 362 2011-11-07 10:35:30 <coderrr> gmaxwell, not sure if its better or not https://gist.github.com/3a9e65bb5d8509abef7d
 363 2011-11-07 10:36:50 <epscy> lianj: december apparently, though yes they did originally say november
 364 2011-11-07 10:37:26 <epscy> sipa: i am worried that will just lead to bizzare money gambling schemes like we see on wall st
 365 2011-11-07 10:38:04 <sipa> human nature...
 366 2011-11-07 10:38:33 <epscy> meet the new boss, same as the old boss
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 369 2011-11-07 10:46:43 <UukGoblin> epscy, slight difference here is that end-users don't have to give their money to banks at all
 370 2011-11-07 10:46:48 <UukGoblin> so banks have no money to gamble with
 371 2011-11-07 10:47:41 <sipa> eventually, they will
 372 2011-11-07 10:48:03 <epscy> UukGoblin: well in the west investment banking subsidises retail banking, without it we would be paying a monthly fee for current accounts and a fee everytime we use an ATM
 373 2011-11-07 10:48:47 <epscy> it would be entirely possible to have a safe well capitalised retail bank, but consumers would consider it too expensive
 374 2011-11-07 10:49:15 <UukGoblin> or useless
 375 2011-11-07 10:49:18 <UukGoblin> like they should
 376 2011-11-07 10:49:34 <epscy> i can see bitcoin "investment" companies becoming popular too, why hold your money when it could be working for you?
 377 2011-11-07 10:49:57 <epscy> but yes it is nice that bitcoin ultimately gives the choice to the end user
 378 2011-11-07 10:50:58 <UukGoblin> one reason to hold it yourself is that the economy doesn't get screwed up by large high risk trades
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 381 2011-11-07 10:52:24 <epscy> i would like to think that bitcoin would promote fiscal responsibility but in practice people don't make smarter financial decisions just because a commodity is deflationary
 382 2011-11-07 10:53:04 <epscy> i don't think bitcoin is immune from the kind of financial crisis we have seen in the last 3 years with government backed money
 383 2011-11-07 10:54:25 <UukGoblin> :-<
 384 2011-11-07 10:54:49 min0r has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 385 2011-11-07 10:55:05 <sipa> it's not, but for different reason
 386 2011-11-07 10:55:09 <epscy> there are actually good reasons to discourage large holdings, economies that do well tend to have money moving about the most
 387 2011-11-07 10:55:31 <epscy> it is really about the quality of the investment
 388 2011-11-07 10:56:17 <UukGoblin> imho, problems with money shouldn't affect world's economies
 389 2011-11-07 10:56:30 <UukGoblin> everyone should be able to get their own food and water
 390 2011-11-07 10:56:55 <UukGoblin> but that's way outside the scope of #-dev ;-P
 391 2011-11-07 10:57:43 <epscy> yeah, take it to #zeitgeist ;)
 392 2011-11-07 10:58:17 random_cat has joined
 393 2011-11-07 10:58:33 <UukGoblin> CBA with their silly password policy
 394 2011-11-07 10:58:49 <UukGoblin> and no, they're wrong too
 395 2011-11-07 10:58:51 <epscy> loi, it exists?
 396 2011-11-07 11:00:19 <UukGoblin> sure
 397 2011-11-07 11:00:30 <UukGoblin> they used to have their own IRC server and stuff
 398 2011-11-07 11:00:44 <sipa> cba?
 399 2011-11-07 11:00:48 <epscy> i can see myself trolling them when i am drunk
 400 2011-11-07 11:00:57 <UukGoblin> can't be a*ed
 401 2011-11-07 11:01:04 <UukGoblin> epscy, lol
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 403 2011-11-07 11:07:20 <Eliel> bitcoin doesn't fix the main problem with money but it does fix many of the ones that have been built on money.
 404 2011-11-07 11:08:43 <epscy> UukGoblin: http://pastebin.com/3c6y75xf not sure who was trolling who there
 405 2011-11-07 11:09:27 <Eliel> :D
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 407 2011-11-07 11:10:11 <jeremias> Eliel: what have you been up to lately, still developing offline wallet? :)
 408 2011-11-07 11:10:46 <Eliel> jeremias: unfortunately, haven't found too much time for it. Also, someone else kind of implemented it already.
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 410 2011-11-07 11:11:21 <jeremias> yep
 411 2011-11-07 11:11:35 <Eliel> not exactly the same thing but close enough.
 412 2011-11-07 11:12:17 <UukGoblin> epscy, lol
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 491 2011-11-07 13:04:58 <makomk> gmaxwell: I'm not convinced that implementing scrypt on FPGAs would be efficient even if it does fit on the larger ones...
 492 2011-11-07 13:05:55 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 493 2011-11-07 13:07:16 <cjdelisle> the whole point of scrypt is that is would be inefficient on fpga/asic/gpu
 494 2011-11-07 13:07:37 kabo69 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 495 2011-11-07 13:07:38 <cjdelisle> and by inefficient I mean not much more efficient than a plain old processor.
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 498 2011-11-07 13:09:08 <makomk> Yeah, I know; gmaxwell doesn't seem to think that the implementation in litecoin etc achieves this though.
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 501 2011-11-07 13:16:54 <cjdelisle> for each "thread" you need 128k of fast memory, the die space adds up quick
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 507 2011-11-07 13:18:15 <Ycros> botnets, om nom nom
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 515 2011-11-07 13:30:34 <cjdelisle> Ycros: yes botnets are very very good at mining litecoin, that was understood and accepted as a cost of developing TBX (the first scrypt coin).
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 677 2011-11-07 15:33:11 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * ra5f07cb / (3 files in 3 dirs): Static link on Linux. And better document release process on OSX. - http://git.io/g_Yg4g
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 700 2011-11-07 15:57:57 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #85: STILL FAILING in 21 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/85/
 701 2011-11-07 15:57:57 <BlueMattBot> gavinandresen: Static link on Linux. And better document release process on OSX.
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 716 2011-11-07 16:16:12 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: reason for link against QtCore/QtGui libs is that the qt-dev package on ubuntu doesnt have static packages...
 717 2011-11-07 16:16:21 <BlueMatt> and I didnt see them when I briefly looked through synaptic
 718 2011-11-07 16:16:38 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I was just writing an email about that....
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 720 2011-11-07 16:17:08 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: so what's the right answer that will get us a 0.5 release out in the next couple of days?
 721 2011-11-07 16:17:14 <BlueMatt> Id say requiring the installation of qt4 libs isnt unreasonable
 722 2011-11-07 16:17:20 <gavinandresen> I agree
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 724 2011-11-07 16:17:42 <gavinandresen> Change the readme ...    what should the readme say?
 725 2011-11-07 16:17:43 <Eliel> that might infact be preferable anyway.
 726 2011-11-07 16:17:51 <gavinandresen> apt-get install qt4-dev   ?
 727 2011-11-07 16:18:08 <Eliel> that's instructions for compiling?
 728 2011-11-07 16:18:16 <gavinandresen> No, binary linux distribution
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 730 2011-11-07 16:18:30 <BlueMatt> I think they are there by default...
 731 2011-11-07 16:19:01 <BlueMatt> (and I dont see qt-core packages installed on my system...)
 732 2011-11-07 16:20:01 <sipa> i'm building git head bitcoin-qt on oneiric now
 733 2011-11-07 16:20:04 <BlueMatt> libQtGui.so.4 is in libqtgui4
 734 2011-11-07 16:20:08 <sipa> let's see which libs it links against
 735 2011-11-07 16:20:24 <BlueMatt> and libQtCore.so.4 is in libqtcore4
 736 2011-11-07 16:20:29 <BlueMatt> so those two are required
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 738 2011-11-07 16:20:58 <BlueMatt> and that should be it afaict
 739 2011-11-07 16:22:07 <Eliel> I'd vote for including the installation command in the documentation. It'll do nothing if they're there and will be helpful even for people on other distros that don't have them preinstalled.
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 746 2011-11-07 16:25:31 <sipa> libaudio2 libboost-filesystem1.42.0 libboost-program-options1.42.0 libboost-system1.42.0 libboost-thread1.42.0 libc6 libdb5.1++ libexpat1 libffi6 libfontconfig1 libfreetype6 libgcc1 libglib2.0-0 libice6 libpcre3 libpng12-0 libqtcore4 libqtgui4 libsm6 libssl1.0.0 libstdc++6 libuuid1 libx11-6 libxau6 libxcb1 libxdmcp6 libxext6 libxi6 libxrender1 libxt6 zlib1g
 747 2011-11-07 16:25:48 <sipa> that are that packages that provide libraries my built bitcoin-qt links against
 748 2011-11-07 16:26:09 <sipa> i suppose most of them are dependencies of libqtgui4 anyway
 749 2011-11-07 16:26:23 <BlueMatt> many of those are very explicitly deps of default install package ubuntu-desktop
 750 2011-11-07 16:26:39 <gavinandresen> sipa: I committed a change this morning so you can qmake RELEASE=1 and static link to most of those
 751 2011-11-07 16:28:25 <BlueMatt> RELEASE is a poor name imho, it is release for generic binaries, for distro packages, you would never use it
 752 2011-11-07 16:28:36 <BlueMatt> (not that it really matters...)
 753 2011-11-07 16:28:38 <sipa> agree
 754 2011-11-07 16:29:03 <gavinandresen> happy to change it to something better... how about qmake BRUCE=1
 755 2011-11-07 16:29:17 <BlueMatt> I prefer curtis
 756 2011-11-07 16:29:25 <sipa> i vote qmake ANSWER=42
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 758 2011-11-07 16:29:40 <Eliel> how about just plain STATIC=1?
 759 2011-11-07 16:29:47 <BlueMatt> na, thats too obvious
 760 2011-11-07 16:29:59 <gavinandresen> RELEASE=1 also does some mac osx-specific stuff
 761 2011-11-07 16:30:21 <BlueMatt> meh, whatever
 762 2011-11-07 16:31:03 <Guest21618> heh
 763 2011-11-07 16:31:07 <Guest21618> grr
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 767 2011-11-07 16:31:20 <jgarzik> that's better
 768 2011-11-07 16:32:20 <sipa> libaudio2 libc6 libexpat1 libffi6 libfontconfig1 libfreetype6 libgcc1 libglib2.0-0 libice6 libpcre3 libpng12-0 libqtcore4 libqtgui4 libsm6 libstdc++6 libuuid1 libx11-6 libxau6 libxcb1 libxdmcp6 libxext6 libxi6 libxrender1 libxt6 zlib1g
 769 2011-11-07 16:32:25 <sipa> those are left now
 770 2011-11-07 16:32:30 <sipa> with RELEASE=1
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 772 2011-11-07 16:32:43 <gavinandresen> sipa: that looks about right.
 773 2011-11-07 16:32:45 <BlueMatt> "libpng" grrr
 774 2011-11-07 16:33:10 <BlueMatt> where is libpng used?
 775 2011-11-07 16:33:18 <BlueMatt> (it should be removed if possible)
 776 2011-11-07 16:33:30 <BlueMatt> (had problems with different distros and libpng deps in the past)
 777 2011-11-07 16:33:58 <gavinandresen> src/qt/res/icons  has a bunch of png files
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 780 2011-11-07 16:34:08 <BlueMatt> m, well that would do it I suppose...
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 782 2011-11-07 16:34:57 <gavinandresen> So: what's the magic apt-get install  line that will make sure all of those dso's are installed?  Anybody?
 783 2011-11-07 16:35:11 <gavinandresen> (I'm itching to update doc/README and tag a rc3)
 784 2011-11-07 16:35:15 <sipa> libQtGui.so.4.7.4 depends on libpng12.so.0
 785 2011-11-07 16:35:22 <BlueMatt> sudo apt-get install libqtcore4 libqtgui4
 786 2011-11-07 16:35:27 <BlueMatt> should do it by itself Id assume
 787 2011-11-07 16:35:40 <sipa> anyone know how to find all dependencies of an ubuntu package, recursively?
 788 2011-11-07 16:35:56 <BlueMatt> probably some dpkg flag somewhere...
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 790 2011-11-07 16:36:59 <BlueMatt> apt-rdepends
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 792 2011-11-07 16:37:02 <BlueMatt> sipa: ^
 793 2011-11-07 16:37:24 <sipa> don't have that
 794 2011-11-07 16:37:31 <sipa> but that sounds like reverse dependencies?
 795 2011-11-07 16:37:38 <sipa> apt-cache dotty seems to give what i need
 796 2011-11-07 16:37:38 <BlueMatt> yep
 797 2011-11-07 16:37:47 <gavinandresen> I just happen to have a fresh ubuntu server, I'll see what I get...
 798 2011-11-07 16:37:48 <BlueMatt> m, well whatever
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 800 2011-11-07 16:41:14 * sipa confirms: on ubuntu oneiric, libqtgui4 and libqtcore4 depend recursively on all packages that provide libraries the binary is linked against
 801 2011-11-07 16:41:57 <gavinandresen> Looks like I didn't get expat, pcre3, png, zlib, and a couple of others on (how do I tell what version of Ubuntu I'm running?)
 802 2011-11-07 16:42:05 <sipa> lsb_release -a
 803 2011-11-07 16:42:06 <BlueMatt> cat /etc/issue
 804 2011-11-07 16:42:29 <gavinandresen> ... on 10.10 'maverick' server
 805 2011-11-07 16:42:44 <sipa> ldd bitcoin-qt | fgrep / | cut -d '/' -f 2- | cut -d ' ' -f 1 | while read L; do dpkg -S "/$L"; done | cut -d ':' -f 1 | sort | uniq >/tmp/need.txt
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 807 2011-11-07 16:42:54 <sipa> (to get all packages bitcoin-qt needs)
 808 2011-11-07 16:43:00 <BlueMatt> does bitcoin-qt run directly after installing the libqt packages?
 809 2011-11-07 16:43:09 <gavinandresen> Installing bitcoin-qt on the server is dumb anyway, so maybe we don't care...
 810 2011-11-07 16:43:17 <sipa> apt-cache dotty libqtgui4 libqtcore4 | fgrep '"' | fgrep ' -> ' | cut -d ' ' -f 1 | cut -d '"' -f 2 | cut -d ':' -f 1 | sort | uniq >/tmp/deps.txt
 811 2011-11-07 16:43:23 <BlueMatt> on default ubuntu install, it should pretty much just run
 812 2011-11-07 16:43:33 <sipa> (to get a list of all packages libqtgui4 and libqtcore4 depend on)
 813 2011-11-07 16:43:38 <Eliel> gavinandresen: someone might want to run it with remote X.
 814 2011-11-07 16:43:48 <Eliel> that is, ssh -X
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 816 2011-11-07 16:44:07 <BlueMatt> mmm, very true
 817 2011-11-07 16:44:09 <gavinandresen> Eliel: true...
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 824 2011-11-07 16:45:30 <makomk> BlueMatt: you might want --as-needed btw.
 825 2011-11-07 16:45:54 <BlueMatt> for?
 826 2011-11-07 16:46:25 <makomk> bitcoin-qt, to avoid unnecesary dependencies on libraries you don't use directly.
 827 2011-11-07 16:46:44 <BlueMatt> re: what?
 828 2011-11-07 16:46:55 <gavinandresen> Is --as-needed a linker flag?
 829 2011-11-07 16:47:01 <BlueMatt> yea
 830 2011-11-07 16:47:02 <makomk> libpng in particular.
 831 2011-11-07 16:47:09 * sipa tries
 832 2011-11-07 16:47:21 <BlueMatt> libpng is not linked against bitcoin, its against qt (now that I think about it)
 833 2011-11-07 16:47:31 <BlueMatt> so its not a problem (as both qt and png are system-installed)
 834 2011-11-07 16:47:42 <BlueMatt> its when you static qt that it would be a problem
 835 2011-11-07 16:48:43 <BlueMatt> it would, however, remove dep on libpthread libm and libgcc_s
 836 2011-11-07 16:48:53 <BlueMatt> .so.0, .so.6 and .so.1 respectively
 837 2011-11-07 16:49:17 <BlueMatt> not that that really matters, but...
 838 2011-11-07 16:49:58 <makomk> You may find that without --as-needed you're linking against libpng directly in the dynamic case even though you don't need to, due to... quirks of library dependency handling on Linux. Dunno.
 839 2011-11-07 16:50:46 <BlueMatt> I kinda doubt we are, though I suppose its theoretically possible...
 840 2011-11-07 16:51:01 <makomk> Looks like it is actually doing the right thing.
 841 2011-11-07 16:53:19 <gavinandresen> I'm afk for lunch for a while. Somebody please figure out the right "sudo apt-get install ..." line for the doc/README and submit a pull (or just get sipa to push)
 842 2011-11-07 16:55:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: you installed libqtgui4 on maverick, and you didn't have libpng afterwards?
 843 2011-11-07 16:56:16 <sipa> it seems to depend on it: http://packages.ubuntu.com/maverick/libqtgui4
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 849 2011-11-07 17:03:26 <Eliel> sipa: my guess is that the missing ones were already installed.
 850 2011-11-07 17:03:35 <sipa> ?
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 852 2011-11-07 17:05:27 <Eliel> that is, I think gavin just checked which packages got installed along with qt4 as dependencies but didn't check if they were already installed.
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 856 2011-11-07 17:14:19 <gavinandresen> back.  Hmm?  No, I looked for /usr/lib/*png* and see nothing...
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 859 2011-11-07 17:14:55 <gavinandresen> is it named something other than libpng.so.#  or put someplace else?
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 861 2011-11-07 17:15:06 <sipa> /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpng12.so
 862 2011-11-07 17:15:07 <sipa> here
 863 2011-11-07 17:15:30 <gavinandresen> no x86_64 directory
 864 2011-11-07 17:15:44 <sipa> did you check /lib ?
 865 2011-11-07 17:15:46 <nanotube> find /usr/lib -name libpng* maybe?
 866 2011-11-07 17:15:55 <sipa> dpkg -L libpng12-0
 867 2011-11-07 17:16:10 <gavinandresen> sipa: didn't check lib... there it is /lib/libpn
 868 2011-11-07 17:16:21 <nanotube> yea it's in /lib
 869 2011-11-07 17:16:27 <gavinandresen> of COURSE it is....
 870 2011-11-07 17:16:42 <sipa> sure, decoding png is such an essential system function
 871 2011-11-07 17:16:48 <gavinandresen> sigh
 872 2011-11-07 17:17:00 <nanotube> heh
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 874 2011-11-07 17:17:45 <sipa> gavinandresen: can you run apt-cache dotty libqtgui4 libqtcore4 | fgrep '"' | fgrep ' -> ' | cut -d ' ' -f 1 | cut -d '"' -f 2 | cut -d ':' -f 1 | sort | uniq >/tmp/deps.txt ?
 875 2011-11-07 17:18:11 <sipa> if that's a superset of the dependencies of what we build, we're fine with just demanding the installation of libqtgui4
 876 2011-11-07 17:18:13 <gavinandresen> sipa:  if I could figure out how to copy and paste into VirtualBox, yeah....
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 878 2011-11-07 17:19:29 <BlueMatt> should be able to if youve installed guest tools
 879 2011-11-07 17:21:06 <gavinandresen> sipa:  that got me a 1,148-line deps.txt file (assuming I didn't make a typo... still can't figure out how to get copy&past with OSX VirtualBox working)
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 881 2011-11-07 17:21:38 <sipa> gavinandresen: quite possible, it's the recursive list of everything that will be installed if you install libqtgui4
 882 2011-11-07 17:22:07 <gavinandresen> good enough for me-- I'm going to update the readme to suggest installing the two qt libraries, then tag rc3
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 884 2011-11-07 17:24:08 <nanotube> gavinandresen: i remember i had to install the 'guest additions' on the virtualbox client os in order to be able to copy/paste into a windows vbox vm...
 885 2011-11-07 17:24:09 <sipa> actually, just libqtgui4 suffices
 886 2011-11-07 17:24:14 <nanotube> maybe something similar in your case?
 887 2011-11-07 17:24:17 <sipa> as that depends on libqtcore4
 888 2011-11-07 17:24:24 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ^
 889 2011-11-07 17:24:36 <gavinandresen> ok
 890 2011-11-07 17:26:18 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen v0.5.0rc3 * rd6245ca / doc/README : Mention Qt4 runtime dependencies - http://git.io/GYX4wg
 891 2011-11-07 17:28:25 <gavinandresen> Ok, rc3 tagged.  Time to bin/gbuild....
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 923 2011-11-07 18:15:38 <gavinandresen> Lol xkcd today:  http://xkcd.com/974/
 924 2011-11-07 18:16:31 <nanotube> hehe
 925 2011-11-07 18:18:21 <sipa> gavinandresen: in the IT world, everything always happens automatically, but nothing just works :)
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 927 2011-11-07 18:19:54 <gavinandresen> sipa:  I use a couple of IT products that "just work" -- my iPhone (not all the apps Just Work, of course) and Chrome (ditto for its plugins)
 928 2011-11-07 18:21:19 <sipa> right, not exactly what i mean - it's a not entirely accurate translation of a joke in dutch
 929 2011-11-07 18:21:58 <gavinandresen> sipa:  ah... yeah, some humor was lost in translation
 930 2011-11-07 18:22:09 <BlueMatt> humor always is...
 931 2011-11-07 18:22:31 <gavinandresen> Can somebody sanity test bitcoin-0.5.0rc3-linux.tar.gz for me :  https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.5.0/test/
 932 2011-11-07 18:22:58 <gavinandresen> And bitcoin-0.5.0rc3-macosx.dmg
 933 2011-11-07 18:23:11 <gavinandresen> (windows builds soon, I'm compiling now)
 934 2011-11-07 18:23:38 <sipa> i'll do gitian builds when i get home
 935 2011-11-07 18:24:38 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: where's the source releases?
 936 2011-11-07 18:25:33 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I think this will work:   https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tarball/v0.5.0rc3
 937 2011-11-07 18:25:43 <luke-jr> lame
 938 2011-11-07 18:25:49 <gavinandresen> (if it doesn't, let me know)
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1018 2011-11-07 19:59:02 <shurdeek> Does anyone know if the Atheros from bitcointalk.org forums is the same Atheros as the one from bitcoin wiki?
1019 2011-11-07 19:59:20 <makomk> Heads up: merged mining's support for multiple chains is actually flawed (see: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=51069.0), it looks like the easiest solution for chains to take is to add their own block hashes to the Bitcoin coinbase.
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1032 2011-11-07 20:09:02 <luke-jr> makomk: nonsense
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1037 2011-11-07 20:14:59 <makomk> luke-jr: the alternative involves every new auxiliary chain co-ordinating with every other aux chain to make sure their IDs are as different as possible.
1038 2011-11-07 20:15:43 <luke-jr> makomk: nope
1039 2011-11-07 20:15:53 <makomk> Got a better solution then?
1040 2011-11-07 20:16:02 <luke-jr> makomk: the alternative just means other aux chains use a sane cheat-prevention
1041 2011-11-07 20:16:04 <Eliel> makomk: luke's way would be to ignore altchains (except namecoin) I think.
1042 2011-11-07 20:16:08 <luke-jr> like not letting two blocks in order have the same proof
1043 2011-11-07 20:16:31 <luke-jr> namecoin's algorithm was never intended for other aux chains in the first place
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1045 2011-11-07 20:18:13 <makomk> luke-jr: what happens if I'm a 51% attacker and mine a proof of with two versions of the same-numbered aux chain block, one sending coin A to address B and one sending it to address C, then confirm it with more blocks that use the same POW to confirm both?
1046 2011-11-07 20:19:05 <makomk> It seems to me that doing it your way would make double-spending (and triple, quadruple, ...) free once you'd got enough hashpower.
1047 2011-11-07 20:19:14 <luke-jr> hmm
1048 2011-11-07 20:19:19 p0s has joined
1049 2011-11-07 20:19:26 <denisx> luke-jr: I ported pushpoold to libevent2 and now this big memleak is gone
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1052 2011-11-07 20:19:37 <luke-jr> makomk: ok, you have a good point there
1053 2011-11-07 20:19:51 <luke-jr> makomk: but there's still no reason a solution needs to drop namecoin support
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1055 2011-11-07 20:19:56 <luke-jr> denisx: i c
1056 2011-11-07 20:22:08 <DrHaribo> makomk: I think you found a problem that hasn't really been thought of before :)
1057 2011-11-07 20:22:10 <Eliel> or... when a miner sees two possible continuation forks in the blockchain, they could just avoid the risk of mining the wrong one and mine them both...
1058 2011-11-07 20:22:47 <Eliel> although, I'm not sure if that'd actually be a bad thing.
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1087 2011-11-07 21:13:45 <Mqrius> Heya! Is there a way to dump a raw transaction? Either from the client, or from a site like blockexplorer, or from pywallet or something...
1088 2011-11-07 21:14:17 <Mqrius> (If I can do it without compiling the client with modifications, that'd be great. Compiling in windows is a pain :( )
1089 2011-11-07 21:17:34 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
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1091 2011-11-07 21:20:59 <Mqrius> No?
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1093 2011-11-07 21:23:11 <Edward_Black> Mqrius I think I saw something like that, but don't quote me on that. let me trawl my x-coin favorites folder...
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1095 2011-11-07 21:24:14 <Lolcust> Maybe pywallet would do ? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34028.0
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1097 2011-11-07 21:27:12 <Mqrius> Lolcust: Pywallet doesn't output it raw. It has some things that look raw-ish, but I'm not sure what they are (tx_k and tx_v)
1098 2011-11-07 21:27:12 <Edward_Black> Yeah, i think pywallet can dump tx, among other things
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1101 2011-11-07 21:28:18 <Mqrius> Unless tx_v is actually the raw transaction, but I'm not sure. For one, it asks for both tx_k and tx_v to import a transaction
1102 2011-11-07 21:28:44 <Lolcust> hm, let me double-check
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1109 2011-11-07 21:37:47 <ThomasV> why is bitcoin-info down?
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1111 2011-11-07 21:38:41 <Mqrius> lolcat: any idea?
1112 2011-11-07 21:38:49 <Lolcust> Well, Mqrius, it appears that both txk and txv are the raw data the client soft stuffs in the wallet
1113 2011-11-07 21:38:53 <Lolcust> source https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35469.msg440599#msg440599
1114 2011-11-07 21:39:08 <Lolcust> both are needed to "manually" import a single transaction
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1116 2011-11-07 21:40:02 <Lolcust> and in fact they are the _only_ thing needed for transaction import, so, from that I reckon they are exactly what "raw transaction dump" is
1117 2011-11-07 21:40:21 <Mqrius> Lolcust: I'm looking for the hex string that's broadcasted on the network
1118 2011-11-07 21:40:32 <Mqrius> I'm building a javascript tool that generates a transaction, but I want to check it against a transaction already made, to see if there's any difference
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1120 2011-11-07 21:41:15 <Lolcust> I am no coder, but wouldn't it be easier to just broadcast it to testnet and see if it sticks, Mqrius ?
1121 2011-11-07 21:41:34 <Lolcust> And methinks you would need wireshark to intercept the string it broadcasts
1122 2011-11-07 21:42:04 <Lolcust> AFAIK that is the best way to grab what it is sending to the net as opposed to what it is writing to the wallet
1123 2011-11-07 21:42:16 <Mqrius> Hmm, I could try that
1124 2011-11-07 21:42:27 <Mqrius> I hope it's not too convoluted :P
1125 2011-11-07 21:42:37 <sipa> Mqrius: what would you need, ideally?
1126 2011-11-07 21:42:56 <Lolcust> Sending to testnet is piece o cake Mqrius :) Wireshark - not so much
1127 2011-11-07 21:43:15 <sipa> just hex dump of raw transactions, import+export?
1128 2011-11-07 21:43:26 <Mqrius> sipa: Any transaction hex string from an address I have the private key of, so I can reconstruct it in my custom tool to check if it matches
1129 2011-11-07 21:44:04 <sipa> i'll write you a patch that exposes it as an rpc?
1130 2011-11-07 21:44:26 <Mqrius> sipa: Ideally, without having to compile. I always have a load of trouble with that on windows >_<
1131 2011-11-07 21:44:29 <Mqrius> Sorry I'm difficult :P
1132 2011-11-07 21:44:47 <sipa> bah, windows
1133 2011-11-07 21:44:48 <Lolcust> Mqrius, I can build modified bitcoins for windows =)
1134 2011-11-07 21:45:29 <Eliel> Lolcust: do you feel like you understand OP_EVAL now?
1135 2011-11-07 21:45:31 <Mqrius> Lolcust: I don't have much knowledge about testnet, how to set it up/get coins for it/what's different in transactions, etc. Figuring that out would cost me a decent amount of time
1136 2011-11-07 21:45:44 <ThomasV> Mqrius: I have a python script that creates transactions
1137 2011-11-07 21:46:06 <Mqrius> ThomasV: That would also work. Have you checked that it works?
1138 2011-11-07 21:46:24 <Lolcust> Eliel saying that I "understand" it would be a mite of an overstatement, but I am starting to like the idea a lot
1139 2011-11-07 21:46:41 <ThomasV> Mqrius: yes it works, it is part of my new client
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1141 2011-11-07 21:47:12 <Lolcust> I am still not partial to the "use same address format for simple things like sending auntie some coins, and mind-bending stuff like exotic escrow setups" philosophy
1142 2011-11-07 21:47:16 <Mqrius> ThomasV: Can I get it somewhere? (Also, client in python... Nice. I like coding in python :))
1143 2011-11-07 21:47:19 <ThomasV> Mqrius: http://ecdsa.org/electrum
1144 2011-11-07 21:47:21 leonardo is now known as Guest62385
1145 2011-11-07 21:47:44 <ThomasV> the code is short
1146 2011-11-07 21:47:48 <Guest62385> Hi, I'm testing bitcoin 0.5 rc3 and on tab transaction on the field to filter address, it's case senistive. Why?
1147 2011-11-07 21:47:58 <Guest62385> its a bug?
1148 2011-11-07 21:48:14 <sipa> addresses are case sensitive...
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1150 2011-11-07 21:48:49 <Eliel> Lolcust: I see no problem with it. The receiver made the address anyway, they're supposed to know how to use it :)
1151 2011-11-07 21:49:03 <Guest62385> but if I edit the address to be for example: Leonardo and I type leonardo, I don't see any result
1152 2011-11-07 21:49:27 <Lolcust> Eliel, maybe you expect them to read the manual, too ? =)
1153 2011-11-07 21:49:37 <Lolcust> or Cthulhu forbid, wiki ?
1154 2011-11-07 21:49:47 <Guest62385> I don't think the filter search should be case sensitive
1155 2011-11-07 21:49:50 <Eliel> Guest62385: not a good idea to get used to handling addresses without paying attention to case.
1156 2011-11-07 21:50:18 <Guest62385> to edited address
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1158 2011-11-07 21:50:53 <Eliel> Lolcust: who would need to read manual? user or the coder who's creating a wallet program? In the latter case, yes. In the former, I don't see any particular need, their wallet software ought to take care of things.
1159 2011-11-07 21:51:16 <Eliel> Lolcust: unless, it's a sophisticated wallet, in that case it puts some expectations on the user too.
1160 2011-11-07 21:52:14 <Guest62385> Why Bitcoin (tested on bitcoin 0.5 rc3) take so much time to exit?
1161 2011-11-07 21:52:35 <Guest62385> to be closed
1162 2011-11-07 21:52:42 <Lolcust> Eliel well, escrow/multisign and whatever super-duper stuff will be implemented with OP_EVAL later are "advanced wallet functionality"
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1164 2011-11-07 21:53:24 <Eliel> Lolcust: well, yes, if you use them, you need to understand them, of course.
1165 2011-11-07 21:53:41 <Eliel> unless the wallet software can do it for you.
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1167 2011-11-07 21:54:00 <Lolcust> User getting exposed to it without being explicitly and repeatedly told that it is advanced stuff for big boys and girls is a nice way to get a bunch of butthurt "rich but not cow-pewter savvy" people whining across the internets
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1171 2011-11-07 21:54:39 <Eliel> Lolcust: you know, that's not criticism for OP_EVAL but rather the existence of complex transactions.
1172 2011-11-07 21:55:38 <Lolcust> Eliel, basically, my position boils down to "it won't be a horrible burden to have a separate addresstype as catch-all for Mind Bendy Advanced Transactions, to make it very very explicit that there are "basic" send coins to auntie transactions and Complicated Ones that REQUIRE reading the manual to avoid trouble"
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1174 2011-11-07 21:56:44 <Lolcust> It's not a criticism of OP_EVAL as a code construct, just criticism of particualar non-crucial design facet of it which as far as I can tell is fairly trivial to do the "other way"
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1177 2011-11-07 21:56:59 <Eliel> Lolcust: An escrow kind of transaction requires more communication to build the transaction in the first place than just getting the address.
1178 2011-11-07 21:57:06 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: huh?  Why would complex transactions require Aunt Ellie to read the manual?  All the complication should be taken care of by the software she's using
1179 2011-11-07 21:58:29 <ThomasV> who is Aunt Ellie?
1180 2011-11-07 21:58:50 <gavinandresen> Aunt Ellie is your doesn't-know-how-to-copy-and-paste relative....
1181 2011-11-07 21:58:54 <Lolcust> Well, auntie's better understand how escrow works so that she doesn't end up in a situation when there is one party too many or something. And escrow is quite frankly not the last exotic transaction we will see, so it seems prudent, to me, to compartmentalize the relatively complex stuff to a separate "advanced" addresstype
1182 2011-11-07 21:59:05 <ThomasV> it's my mom, not my aunt
1183 2011-11-07 21:59:18 <gavinandresen> What's your mom's name?
1184 2011-11-07 21:59:27 <Lolcust> Also, I'm kinda scared of theymos's implication that in the future we will have >256 exotic transaction types
1185 2011-11-07 22:00:00 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: "password"
1186 2011-11-07 22:00:16 <Eliel> Lolcust: even if there are >256 exotic transaction types, most users don't need to worry about them.
1187 2011-11-07 22:00:18 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1188 2011-11-07 22:00:33 <Eliel> just don't use them to receive coins.
1189 2011-11-07 22:00:51 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: well, I'm proposing two bitcoin address types; the one we have now, and a new one that does the arbitrarily-complicated-op-eval stuff.
1190 2011-11-07 22:01:16 <lolcat> Mqrius: About what?
1191 2011-11-07 22:01:17 <Lolcust> gavinandresen ah, sorry, I must have misunderstood then.
1192 2011-11-07 22:01:33 <Lolcust> I thought "classic" addresses are getting phased out post op-eval
1193 2011-11-07 22:01:39 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: nope
1194 2011-11-07 22:01:40 <Mqrius> lolcat: Sorry, wrong tab
1195 2011-11-07 22:02:06 <Lolcust> gavinandresen, that's cool, I'm fine with two - address approach
1196 2011-11-07 22:02:06 <Eliel> Lolcust: I'd guess they'll eventually get phased out. But that could take a long time.
1197 2011-11-07 22:02:06 <lolcat> What is wrong with old versions?
1198 2011-11-07 22:02:24 <Lolcust> nothing lolcat, they are gonna be fine )
1199 2011-11-07 22:02:56 <lolcat> 0.3.21, is that a good version?
1200 2011-11-07 22:03:00 <gavinandresen> I think the old address format will be around essentially forever, they'll just become more rare as people use signatures-on-multiple-devices-required addresses more and more
1201 2011-11-07 22:03:24 <sipa> lolcat: why do you keep using such an old version?
1202 2011-11-07 22:03:39 <lolcat> sipa: It is not in my respitories and compiling is a pain
1203 2011-11-07 22:03:48 CaptainDDL has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1204 2011-11-07 22:03:56 <sipa> which distribution/os?
1205 2011-11-07 22:04:06 <Eliel> Lolcust: there's binaries even for linux.
1206 2011-11-07 22:04:14 <Eliel> oops, meant lolcat :)
1207 2011-11-07 22:04:33 CaptainDDL has joined
1208 2011-11-07 22:04:33 <Lolcust> gavinandresen, well, as long as old addresses are around for just sending coins to auntie, we're gonna be fine I guess. Mind a stupid question, Gavin?
1209 2011-11-07 22:04:42 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
1210 2011-11-07 22:04:47 <lolcat> sipa: Debian Squeeze I belive
1211 2011-11-07 22:04:53 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: shoot.  I reserve the right to give a stupid answer, though
1212 2011-11-07 22:04:55 <ThomasV> oh, blockchain.info is up again
1213 2011-11-07 22:04:58 <sipa> auntie will probably be using a web-based bitcoin service
1214 2011-11-07 22:05:15 <lolcat> What is these new adresses I keep hearing about?
1215 2011-11-07 22:05:22 <sipa> that sevice will expose a url or bitcoin address for payments, that she can give to her neighbour for paying back  those eggs
1216 2011-11-07 22:05:31 <gavinandresen> ... or an app on her iPhone.  (that you installed for her, because installing apps is too complicated....)
1217 2011-11-07 22:05:37 <sipa> she doesn't know nor care what that address represents
1218 2011-11-07 22:05:50 <Lolcust> lolcat , it's new kind of powerfull eldritch mathemagics
1219 2011-11-07 22:05:56 <Eliel> Lolcust: nothing requires OP_EVAL transactions to be complex though.
1220 2011-11-07 22:05:58 <sipa> whether it is a template from a complex txou script, or a simple refernece to a public key
1221 2011-11-07 22:06:13 <Lolcust> Eliel well, simple transactions do fine without
1222 2011-11-07 22:06:16 <lolcat> Lolcust: What was wrong with the old format?
1223 2011-11-07 22:06:21 <gavinandresen> lolcat:  see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0013 and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0012
1224 2011-11-07 22:06:41 <Eliel> Lolcust: true, but still, it's likely that once OP_EVAL is out there, any new transactions will use that, simple or not.
1225 2011-11-07 22:07:14 <Lolcust> Eliel not sure I understand you )
1226 2011-11-07 22:07:23 <sipa> i see no reason for that
1227 2011-11-07 22:07:42 <gavinandresen> Eliel: it is easier to use the existing address type for single-address sends... (that's the way I coded it)
1228 2011-11-07 22:08:02 <Eliel> Lolcust: ah, I mistyped, meant new transactions types.
1229 2011-11-07 22:08:14 <Lolcust> gavinandresen well, I was curious if my personal favorite custom transaction (your hidden spend thing) might eventually see a comeback, and how extensive and dangerous and overhaul it would imply
1230 2011-11-07 22:08:40 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: OP_EVAL is a lot like the hidden spend thing.  Nobody knows what the heck you're doing until you spend the coins you got.
1231 2011-11-07 22:08:58 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: you were serious about that patent circumvention strategy?
1232 2011-11-07 22:09:07 * Lolcust loves OP_EVAL much more now
1233 2011-11-07 22:09:10 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1234 2011-11-07 22:10:58 <lolcat> gavinandresen: Is it invented?
1235 2011-11-07 22:11:03 <Lolcust> Now I wonder if there is a way to stuff some cunning way to confuse and befuddle coin-history analysis into the op-eval, especially in the context of my poor little Tenebrix and its eventually-upcoming laundr...Strong Decorrelator service  ^__^
1236 2011-11-07 22:11:32 CaptainDDL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1237 2011-11-07 22:11:46 <gavinandresen> lolcat: is what invented?  OP_EVAL?  Yes, I implemented it a couple weeks ago.
1238 2011-11-07 22:12:38 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: I don't think it helps, because All Is Revealed when you spend the coins.  And all has to be revealed, because everybody has to be able to validate your transaction.
1239 2011-11-07 22:13:08 <lolcat> gavinandresen: So if I upgrade I have to use opeval?
1240 2011-11-07 22:13:21 <gavinandresen> lolcat: no
1241 2011-11-07 22:13:30 <Eliel> Lolcust: you could perhaps put together a transaction type for strong decorrelation that works in a p2p fashion. Design the transaction and require signatures from every participant for it to be valid.
1242 2011-11-07 22:13:48 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1243 2011-11-07 22:13:56 <sipa> lolcat: it's just a new kind of transactions
1244 2011-11-07 22:14:01 <sipa> the old ones keep working fine
1245 2011-11-07 22:14:03 <gavinandresen> Lolcust:  multisig might help with the "I don't trust the mixer not to run off with my coins" problem, though.
1246 2011-11-07 22:14:39 <lolcat> sipa: Like a new kind of bitcoins?
1247 2011-11-07 22:14:45 <sipa> no
1248 2011-11-07 22:14:57 <sipa> just more things you can do with them
1249 2011-11-07 22:15:07 <lolcat> I can buy relestate with them=
1250 2011-11-07 22:15:11 <lolcat> ?
1251 2011-11-07 22:15:20 <sipa> that's completely independent
1252 2011-11-07 22:15:23 <Eliel> lolcat: if someone will sell you some.
1253 2011-11-07 22:15:29 <Lolcust> gavinandresen well, yes, though you have to agree that it would be silly for a mixer with several millions as "clean-ish" coin buffer to run off with, say, a single million. But it would definitely improve BTC mixers in terms of trust
1254 2011-11-07 22:15:32 <Eliel> but that doesn't really have to do with the tech :)
1255 2011-11-07 22:15:41 <lolcat> sipa: then what can I do now that I couldn't before?
1256 2011-11-07 22:16:03 CaptainDDL has joined
1257 2011-11-07 22:16:03 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
1258 2011-11-07 22:16:12 <lolcat> Lolcust: what is a bitcoin mixer?
1259 2011-11-07 22:16:31 <sipa> lolcat: it will allow you to create addresses that correspond to more than a single key
1260 2011-11-07 22:16:42 <Lolcust> lolcat very long story, let me find you a wiki link to get you started
1261 2011-11-07 22:16:50 <lolcat> sipa: Won't that give me twice the amount of bitcoins?
1262 2011-11-07 22:16:55 <sipa> lolcat: no
1263 2011-11-07 22:17:05 <sipa> please, read how bitcoin works
1264 2011-11-07 22:17:25 <Lolcust> lolcat: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mixing_service
1265 2011-11-07 22:17:48 <helo> so the address sent to will be the hash of two (or more) concatenated public keys?
1266 2011-11-07 22:18:06 <sipa> helo: no, it will be the hash of a script that will do the checking
1267 2011-11-07 22:18:15 <sipa> which will contains the public keys
1268 2011-11-07 22:18:18 <helo> ahhh right
1269 2011-11-07 22:18:32 <lolcat> Lolcust: Oo, so I can use it to make terrorist moeny traceless?
1270 2011-11-07 22:18:39 <sipa> no
1271 2011-11-07 22:18:42 <lolcat> sipa: I know how bitcoins work, I had a ot of them
1272 2011-11-07 22:18:58 <Lolcust> lolcat not exactly, it's ... complicated
1273 2011-11-07 22:19:02 <helo> i'm glad i found the OP_EVAL BIP, as it forced me to finally comprehend the Script wiki
1274 2011-11-07 22:19:37 <sipa> lolcat: if you want to understand how OP_EVAL works, or what it allows you to do, you'll need to understand how bitcoin scripts works
1275 2011-11-07 22:19:52 <sipa> otherwise, there are just some extra use cases one can least that it will enable
1276 2011-11-07 22:20:25 <helo> lolcat: understanding https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script is the next level of bitcoin understanding after mining, i think...
1277 2011-11-07 22:20:31 <lolcat> What do I need bitcoin scripts for?
1278 2011-11-07 22:20:45 <sipa> what do you need bitcoin for?
1279 2011-11-07 22:20:47 <Lolcust> they are, essentially, the brain of the system
1280 2011-11-07 22:20:57 Diablo-D3 has joined
1281 2011-11-07 22:21:03 <helo> lolcat: do you know why e-wallet services are dangerous to use?
1282 2011-11-07 22:21:23 <lolcat> helo: Because they get hacked and the owners migth be evil
1283 2011-11-07 22:21:35 <sipa> right
1284 2011-11-07 22:21:41 <helo> lolcat: right... they have full access to everyone's bitcoin
1285 2011-11-07 22:21:45 <sipa> now, what if you could prevent them from doing so?
1286 2011-11-07 22:21:52 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1287 2011-11-07 22:22:03 <lolcat> sipa: By having my own e-wallet service or own client!
1288 2011-11-07 22:22:04 <sipa> allow them to handle your coins, but you still need to give permission for everything they do with it
1289 2011-11-07 22:22:34 <lolcat> Sounds like a lot of extra effort
1290 2011-11-07 22:22:50 <lolcat> Why not have the client on your server?
1291 2011-11-07 22:23:05 <sipa> because not every human has a server to run it on
1292 2011-11-07 22:23:17 <helo> lolcat: you can be sure that someone would have to compromise both the bitcoin wallet service and your local wallet to have access to your bitcoin
1293 2011-11-07 22:23:25 <gavinandresen> ... and we're not all security-expert sysadmins who are 100% confident we will never ever be hacked.
1294 2011-11-07 22:23:30 <sipa> plus running it yourself involves a lot a responsabilities many people don't want to take, e.g. server crash -> lose coins
1295 2011-11-07 22:23:48 <sipa> wallet services are much better placed to deal with that for all but the 0.01% most tech-savvy ysers
1296 2011-11-07 22:23:52 <gavinandresen> In fact, if you are 100% confident you'll never be hacked, then either you keep your bitcoins on paper or you're delusional.
1297 2011-11-07 22:23:53 CaptainDDL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1298 2011-11-07 22:23:57 <helo> with OP_EVAL, a server crash would still lead to losing coins though, right?
1299 2011-11-07 22:24:01 <lolcat> sipa: No, if the server crash you just reboot
1300 2011-11-07 22:24:05 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: mine are on paper
1301 2011-11-07 22:24:06 <jrmithdobbs> lol
1302 2011-11-07 22:24:11 <sipa> lolcat: what about hard drive crash?
1303 2011-11-07 22:24:19 <lolcat> sipa: I use raid 0 or 1
1304 2011-11-07 22:24:28 <sipa> what if your server room burns down?
1305 2011-11-07 22:24:35 <jrmithdobbs> offsite backups
1306 2011-11-07 22:24:41 <helo> so you could just be a little less paranoid about where you store your private key backups?
1307 2011-11-07 22:24:55 <sipa> what if there is a bug in the software, so that the wallet file, including all its replicas are corrupt?
1308 2011-11-07 22:24:59 <Lolcust> Well, so far, none of my crashes resulted in coinloss. Forgetting to back up that obscure windoze folder did
1309 2011-11-07 22:25:02 <lolcat> sipa: It would be filled with co2 and the air would be sucked out. It is a professional datacenter
1310 2011-11-07 22:25:24 <makomk> gavinandresen: that reminds me, suppose I'm a wallet service that wanted to use 2-of-2 multi-signature transactions to provide instant transactions by refusing to sign a double-spend. How practical would this be?
1311 2011-11-07 22:25:39 <sipa> lolcat: right, if you're willing to do all that effort (have decent hosting, know about the risks, make backups, ...), you're very well placed to manage your own coins
1312 2011-11-07 22:25:46 <sipa> lolcat: that's what bitcoin was intended for
1313 2011-11-07 22:25:56 <sipa> but it's not what everyone wants to do
1314 2011-11-07 22:26:09 <lolcat> sipa: Yeah, if you give money to a child (or someone stupid) they will loose them, be it cash or digital.
1315 2011-11-07 22:26:40 <Lolcust> makomk seems practical on first glance, as long as you trust the escrowfolk
1316 2011-11-07 22:26:54 <Lolcust> or in this case, Trust Provider
1317 2011-11-07 22:27:14 <gavinandresen> makomk: that should be the same as a Wallet Protection Service...
1318 2011-11-07 22:27:35 <helo> with OP_EVAL, you can have three private keys, only one of which you need to get your bitcoin, and a fourth private key that is held by the e-wallet service that is alaways required?
1319 2011-11-07 22:27:45 <makomk> Except, of course, that a wallet protection service doesn't necessarily have to track transactions on their end.
1320 2011-11-07 22:27:45 Zarutian has joined
1321 2011-11-07 22:27:45 <sipa> for example
1322 2011-11-07 22:27:51 <gavinandresen> ... and I expect the wallet protection and "green" address functions will get bundled together.
1323 2011-11-07 22:29:11 <gavinandresen> helo: almost.  I'm proposing at most n-of-3 keys to start (I'm worried about people spamming the block chain just because they can)
1324 2011-11-07 22:30:02 <helo> but one of two could be optional, with the 3rd mandatory, or all 3 mandatory, or any one of the three, etc, depending on the script?
1325 2011-11-07 22:30:35 Disposition has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1328 2011-11-07 22:31:32 <gavinandresen> helo: BIP 11 proposes n-of-m, m < 3, transactions.  You can't do "a and b  OR  c and d", but you could do "any 2 of 3"  (and it'd be trivial to allow "any 2 of 4", which is what you want, if we allowed m == 4)
1329 2011-11-07 22:31:34 <Guest62385> Why Bitcoin (tested on bitcoin 0.5 rc3) take so much time to exit?
1330 2011-11-07 22:31:58 <helo> i see
1331 2011-11-07 22:32:22 eoss has joined
1332 2011-11-07 22:32:23 eoss has quit (Changing host)
1333 2011-11-07 22:32:23 eoss has joined
1334 2011-11-07 22:32:34 <phantomcircuit> Guest62385, it's waiting for things to write to disk
1335 2011-11-07 22:32:39 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: Yes, If you care about it I'd want to do a more careful review before pronouncing it done but I was being serious.
1336 2011-11-07 22:32:39 <gavinandresen> Guest62385: it tries to be extra careful cleaning up database handles, making sure transactions are all processed, etc.
1337 2011-11-07 22:32:51 <gavinandresen> Guest62385: ... although I'm sure it could be optimized to shutdown faster.
1338 2011-11-07 22:33:00 <Guest62385> ok
1339 2011-11-07 22:33:07 <Guest62385> thanks for the answer
1340 2011-11-07 22:33:28 <sipa> Mqrius: my 'rawtx' branch on github has a getrawtransaction RPC call
1341 2011-11-07 22:33:59 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I do care about it. but I do not know what protection it offers, and against what
1342 2011-11-07 22:33:59 <gavinandresen> sipa: have you looked at BIP 10?
1343 2011-11-07 22:34:27 erle- has joined
1344 2011-11-07 22:34:43 <Eliel> gmaxwell: patent protection? got a link for more details somewhere?
1345 2011-11-07 22:35:21 <ThomasV> Eliel: it's about circumventing a software patent
1346 2011-11-07 22:35:29 <sipa> which one?
1347 2011-11-07 22:35:33 <gavinandresen> sipa:   https://gist.github.com/1321518     Proposal for Standardized, Multi-Signature Transaction Execution
1348 2011-11-07 22:35:34 CaptDDL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1349 2011-11-07 22:35:44 <ThomasV> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5892470/description.html
1350 2011-11-07 22:36:01 <gmaxwell> Eliel: he had a specific patent, and I suggested some changes to the implementation which would moot it.
1351 2011-11-07 22:36:18 <sipa> gavinandresen: reading now
1352 2011-11-07 22:36:58 <makomk> ThomasV: how the hell did that get granted?
1353 2011-11-07 22:37:11 CaptDDL has joined
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1355 2011-11-07 22:37:12 CaptDDL has joined
1356 2011-11-07 22:37:14 <ThomasV> makomk: lol
1357 2011-11-07 22:37:25 <ThomasV> because people are dumb
1358 2011-11-07 22:37:38 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: http://www.pattools.com/claimchart.html < feed it to that, then mark all the dependant claims (the ones that say 'a method of claim x' or the like) and ignore them. Then for each dependant claim explain why you're not doing _exactly_ what this claim says.
1359 2011-11-07 22:37:42 <Lolcust> gavinandresen actually, blockchain spam should be managed by txfees. If Bob's wonderfull huge 4 of 14 multisign is too huge, he will pay an exuberant fee for it, no ?
1360 2011-11-07 22:37:45 <gmaxwell> makomk: because it's really quite narrow.
1361 2011-11-07 22:38:03 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: (and change the software to make your reason true, of course)
1362 2011-11-07 22:38:20 abragin has quit ()
1363 2011-11-07 22:38:55 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1364 2011-11-07 22:39:02 <makomk> Claim 3 seems broad to me.
1365 2011-11-07 22:39:14 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: "then for each dependent claim" <--- independent ?
1366 2011-11-07 22:39:32 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: ha yea.
1367 2011-11-07 22:39:47 <gmaxwell> makomk: "radix that is the same as the count of the selected plurality of words"  < _same_ I recommended adding a tiny amount of redundancy in the encoding.
1368 2011-11-07 22:40:07 <gmaxwell> (e.g. make the radix of the grop of words larger by adding one more word to the dictionary)
1369 2011-11-07 22:40:32 <makomk> In fact, it seems broad enough to cover the PGP word list, which suggests the examiner screwed up.
1370 2011-11-07 22:41:08 <gmaxwell> makomk: nah, it doesn't cover pgp words because "selecting a plurality of words" must represent a digit. And pgp words are arguably 1:1, at least thats how they'd understand it.
1371 2011-11-07 22:41:33 <makomk> Aha - the PGP word list has even and odd word lists for different byte positions or something.
1372 2011-11-07 22:41:48 <gmaxwell> The invention here mostly seems to be e.g. how do you represent gf 2^n words using a non-power of two wordlist.
1373 2011-11-07 22:42:33 <makomk> gmaxwell: huh, "radix that is the same as the count of the selected plurality of words" suggests one word per digit surely?
1374 2011-11-07 22:43:07 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: what will it bring to me in practice? I mean, is it common for free software projects to adopt such a strategy? is the threat real?
1375 2011-11-07 22:43:12 <gavinandresen> Lolcust:  yes, but I worry because transaction fees are broken right now-- clients and miners really need more flexibility to let fees go where the market decides, instead of us guessing what the right fees are.
1376 2011-11-07 22:43:17 <gmaxwell> makomk: thats not how I read it. I'm reading it as there are a plurality of words, and they form digits. A single word is not a plurality.
1377 2011-11-07 22:43:59 <makomk> Huh?
1378 2011-11-07 22:44:01 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: It's probably not very real, but you're aware of it. Its risk you can easily mitigate if not eliminate with a half hours work.
1379 2011-11-07 22:44:04 Guest62385 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1380 2011-11-07 22:44:40 <Lolcust> gavinandresen I am mightily skeptical about market-driven txfees, though I agree that a faster, better way (compared to client version update) to update "mandatory" fees that play the antispam role is needed
1381 2011-11-07 22:44:48 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: but then my code will look funny :-)
1382 2011-11-07 22:44:59 <gmaxwell> makomk: pgp words uses single words to represent digits of base 2^8. In the scheme they're discussing you use 3 words to represent a single digit in base 2^32.
1383 2011-11-07 22:45:27 <Lolcust> The problem with market-driven fee adjust, is that neither miners nor "simple users" care much about blockchain being spammed with a pile of megahuge transactions
1384 2011-11-07 22:45:36 TheZimm has joined
1385 2011-11-07 22:45:45 <Lolcust> Tragedy of the commons, and all that jazz Gavin :-(
1386 2011-11-07 22:45:58 <sipa> nobody knows how that will evolve
1387 2011-11-07 22:46:05 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: space in blocks isn't a commons, so I'm not worried about that...
1388 2011-11-07 22:46:14 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: the more important thing to do is the changes you can't make later. e.g. you can change exactly how its calculated, but if you want to make the list slightly redundant you can't do that later.
1389 2011-11-07 22:46:17 <gavinandresen> (miners "own" that space)
1390 2011-11-07 22:46:42 <makomk> The trouble is that some of the claims don't seem to require that two-stage process of breaking the number down into digits and subdigits.
1391 2011-11-07 22:47:40 <gmaxwell> makomk: yes, though if you read the rest of the text it seems to direct the interpertation. I strongly suspect if you check the file wrapper you'll see that the applicant clarified that outright (unless the office was totally asleep)
1392 2011-11-07 22:48:02 <gmaxwell> makomk: If the holder were to push for that interpertation I'm pretty sure that would fail to lots and lots of prior art including SKEY.
1393 2011-11-07 22:48:08 <Lolcust> gavinandresen, are you sure supermajority of miners (or rather, pool-ops) realize their ownership and its implications ? Because it seems to me, some  of those folks are just damn happy that, as Edward_Black puts it, "WITH BTC THEIR COMPUTER SHITS TEH DOLLERS!"
1394 2011-11-07 22:48:49 <gmaxwell> makomk: IIRC the patent was an older one, before 2005 or so the file wrappers aren't online so you'll have to spend about $150 to get a copy of it. :(
1395 2011-11-07 22:48:56 <Lolcust> I would not count on "market rationality", markets are neither rational nor perfectly efficient.
1396 2011-11-07 22:49:34 <gmaxwell> (and for one of my projects I wouldn't bother pulling the wrapper on a patent as simple as this)
1397 2011-11-07 22:50:07 <Lolcust> gavinandresen , IMHO, some strongly enforced baseline fee, just sufficient to keep folks from crapping into the blockchain for sheer griefer joy or out of petty opportunistic malice, is a necessity. Which seems to be exactly what we have now
1398 2011-11-07 22:51:01 <Lolcust> And to me current fees seem quite bitey enough to keep people from making truck-sized 6-out-of-20 multisigns when they will get this opportunity
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1400 2011-11-07 22:51:18 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: agreed, we have to be careful.
1401 2011-11-07 22:51:43 <sipa> but the maintainers of the software should not be the people who decide what the fees are
1402 2011-11-07 22:52:40 <Lolcust> well, I am all for letting miners charge above baseline fee. Now, bypassing the minimum transaction fees imposed on huge transactions is another story
1403 2011-11-07 22:53:16 <gavinandresen> I see a three step process:  1.  Make most clients not care about block-chain-size (do the headers-only-semi-lightweight-node-thing.  2. Un-hardcode the fees in both client and miner, but have reasonable guesses for defaults (that most people will probably use).  3. Get more liberal about transaction size
1404 2011-11-07 22:54:06 <makomk> gmaxwell: from the rather short list of references cited, I'm guessing the patent office screwed up, but I'm no expert.
1405 2011-11-07 22:54:14 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * rec60191eff37 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/index.php: add coinabul ad
1406 2011-11-07 22:54:24 <gavinandresen> I think most miners would be happy to include a LOT more free transactions per block, for example...
1407 2011-11-07 22:54:35 <gmaxwell> makomk: that happens less often than most people think. Usually when it looks like that there is something in the file wrapper that makes it clear.
1408 2011-11-07 22:54:41 <helo> when miners are spending 100x on GPU as they are storage, limiting the block size wouldn't really be a concern right?
1409 2011-11-07 22:54:52 <Lolcust> gavinandresen I am worried that at this point the 4. is : observe as one ultra-liberal pool drags gargantual transactions into the blockchain for a tiny fee, to everyone's chagrin.
1410 2011-11-07 22:55:00 <ThomasV> <gmaxwell> ThomasV: http://www.pattools.com/claimchart.html < feed it to that, then mark all the dependant claims (the ones that say 'a method of claim x' or the like) and ignore them. Then for each dependant claim explain why you're not doing _exactly_ what this claim says.
1411 2011-11-07 22:55:11 <sipa> Lolcust: that may indeed be a possible future
1412 2011-11-07 22:55:14 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: "explain" in my code ?
1413 2011-11-07 22:55:27 <gmaxwell> makomk: e.g. the applicant has adopted the weird and highly limiting definition of some word. They get rejected and then they clarify " no no radix means only numbers than end in three!"
1414 2011-11-07 22:55:47 <sipa> that the largest mining consortium says "we'll decide what we put in the chain, can't follow the load it generates to maintain a full node? stop mining yourself, and leave it to us"
1415 2011-11-07 22:55:49 <Lolcust> sipa also, a possible way for pool cartels (which of course do not exist ^__^ plox don't kill me guys) to wage war
1416 2011-11-07 22:55:52 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: yeah.... I've got some ideas on maximum block size rules that might fit in, too...
1417 2011-11-07 22:56:13 <sipa> the decision to change the block size will probably be one of the hardest to make
1418 2011-11-07 22:56:17 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: just fill out the chart and use it to guide any required changes in your software. Then keep it in case patent jackasses come knocking. Tossing a claims chart at them is usually a reliable way to make them go away.
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1422 2011-11-07 22:56:41 <Lolcust> See, if I happen to be able to easily afford more raw HDD space than the "other dude", I have a vested interest in blockchain growing REALLY huge
1423 2011-11-07 22:56:52 <sipa> possibly
1424 2011-11-07 22:56:54 <gavinandresen> sipa:  if we change it, I think we should change it once-- get rid of the hard limit, and just have nodes "discourage" blocks that are "too big"
1425 2011-11-07 22:57:03 <Lolcust> So I will let all the hugest transactions in for free
1426 2011-11-07 22:57:06 <sipa> i'm really not sure about that
1427 2011-11-07 22:57:10 <gavinandresen> (where "too big" is some measure that we'd have to figure out a reasonable default for)
1428 2011-11-07 22:57:27 <sipa> it may really be opening pandora's box if the block limit is removed
1429 2011-11-07 22:57:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: hardly a week goes by without someone showing up asking how to stuff their porn collection in the blockchain for safe keeping.
1430 2011-11-07 22:57:55 <gavinandresen> sipa:  I think it can be done safely...
1431 2011-11-07 22:58:00 <sipa> it may be
1432 2011-11-07 22:58:41 <sipa> but i think we just don't know enough about it yet
1433 2011-11-07 22:58:44 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately people don't have any better ideas for reliable p2p file storage so the ones that are aware of bitcoin instantly think "I know! I'll cram it in the block chain!"
1434 2011-11-07 22:58:45 <gavinandresen> e.g. if the average block size over the last X thousand blocks has been 200K, then a node sending you a 2 gigabyte block is pretty obviously too big.
1435 2011-11-07 22:59:06 <Lolcust> gavinandresen, so, if I have a reasonably big private pool, and "hard" blocksize limit is gone, I could just mine a single block filled with a single HUGE transaction (make that transaction huge by putting the entire Bolo scifi series into it via oppdrop trix
1436 2011-11-07 22:59:06 <sipa> what if a large miner does allow "too big" blocks
1437 2011-11-07 22:59:12 <sipa> will you ignore their blocks?
1438 2011-11-07 22:59:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: we do today.
1439 2011-11-07 22:59:28 <Lolcust> And have you guys enjoy my huge-ass block forever ?
1440 2011-11-07 22:59:29 ej_h has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1441 2011-11-07 22:59:29 <sipa> right, that's the rule
1442 2011-11-07 22:59:34 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: sure, and everybody would refuse to build on top of that block...
1443 2011-11-07 22:59:43 <gmaxwell> Making the block size a competative process like difficulty seems vaguely reasonable to me.
1444 2011-11-07 22:59:46 <makomk> gmaxwell: I also can't figure out how the single patent they did cite is relevant...
1445 2011-11-07 23:00:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: did you see my mail to the ml today?
1446 2011-11-07 23:00:24 <Lolcust> gavinandresen oh, so other miners will reject mining on top of blocks THEY judge too big, not just refrain from mining such monsters themselves
1447 2011-11-07 23:00:35 <Lolcust> That will IMHO quickly descend into maddness
1448 2011-11-07 23:00:36 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * reda0ed7 / (11 files in 6 dirs): Removed Mongoose dependency. - http://git.io/f-Ysmg
1449 2011-11-07 23:00:36 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: yup
1450 2011-11-07 23:00:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: guess I should co look. been in a timewarp all day.
1451 2011-11-07 23:01:07 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I'll think about it... but I am not sure if I will do it. I believe it is a trivial patent. the word list itself might be copyrighted, but there is no evidence that I am using the same wordlist as in the patent; I took it from that github implementation
1452 2011-11-07 23:01:11 <gavinandresen> Lolcust: and don't forget that clients relay blocks, so they'll have similar rules to refuse relaying "too big" blocks....
1453 2011-11-07 23:01:37 <Lolcust> gavinandresen, so to sneak in a monsterblock, I need to get lucky and/or powerfull enough to mine a small one on top of it ?
1454 2011-11-07 23:02:05 <Lolcust> Or will it be "if chain has monsterblock, reject it" rule irrespective if it is the top one or not ?
1455 2011-11-07 23:02:11 agricocb has joined
1456 2011-11-07 23:02:18 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rf2ff171 / (lib/blockchain.js lib/schema/block.js): Correct proof-of-work calculation. Fixes #45. - http://git.io/hrulAw
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1459 2011-11-07 23:02:58 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: if there really is a true need for a large block then the prior blocks should be large to. If they are not then there isn't stationary demand, and thus there isn't need for a larger block
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1461 2011-11-07 23:03:26 <Lolcust> gmaxwell well, someone has to mine the first "large" block
1462 2011-11-07 23:03:37 <Lolcust> Methinks that current system works well enough
1463 2011-11-07 23:04:03 <Lolcust> In the sense that "should need arise, devs will change the block size limit" is a decent and workable approach IMHO
1464 2011-11-07 23:04:06 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: yes, but you can make the limit be x% over the y%-tile of the last z blocks... and that lets you ramp.
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1466 2011-11-07 23:04:42 <sipa> that encourages spamming the block chain in order to raise the limit in order to be able to spam more
1467 2011-11-07 23:04:50 <gavinandresen> gmaxell: yes-- I tried to find Visa transaction volume for the days around Christmas to get an idea of real-world transaction volume variance....
1468 2011-11-07 23:05:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, but you need the hash power to pull that off.
1469 2011-11-07 23:05:07 <helo> sipa: scary!
1470 2011-11-07 23:06:13 <Lolcust> gmaxwell , again, that enters another variable for pools to compete for - raw HDD space
1471 2011-11-07 23:06:15 <gavinandresen> sipa: I don't think the big mining pools have any incentive to spam the block chain, unless they're getting fees for the spam, in which case it really isn't spam
1472 2011-11-07 23:06:23 <sipa> true
1473 2011-11-07 23:07:19 <Lolcust> Well, if pool X has better ability to scale up storage than pool y, then pool x has incentive to spam the blockchain to give pool y a huge headache and maybe even kill it
1474 2011-11-07 23:07:29 <Lolcust> And it would be technically okay
1475 2011-11-07 23:07:37 <gmaxwell> Well there may be an incentive for small burst mining to drop some DOS blocks just to frustrate everyone else.
1476 2011-11-07 23:07:43 <sipa> Lolcust: i don't like putting the responsibility for a market decision with the devs
1477 2011-11-07 23:07:57 <gmaxwell> esp since e.g. if you're creating garbage txn you know will never be spent (because you made them) you can just forget them.
1478 2011-11-07 23:08:28 <Lolcust> sipa I am generally kinda in-between as far as free market philosophy goes, so I have no problem with the devs making some of the core system decisions
1479 2011-11-07 23:08:43 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I've been thinking a bit about forgetting scriptSigs...
1480 2011-11-07 23:09:11 traviscj has joined
1481 2011-11-07 23:09:15 <Lolcust> I'm kinda a centrist really ^__~
1482 2011-11-07 23:09:27 <nanotube> so, op-eval eh... is that making it into 0.5 or 0.6 ?
1483 2011-11-07 23:09:28 <sipa> good - we don't seem to have many of those :)
1484 2011-11-07 23:09:50 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: a very small limit on the size of scriptPubKeys, no limit on scriptSigs, would work pretty well because you should be able to forget all the scriptSigs once they're buried in the chain deep enough.
1485 2011-11-07 23:09:51 <sipa> 0.5 is about to be released, so i suppose 0.6
1486 2011-11-07 23:10:20 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I strongly support that.
1487 2011-11-07 23:10:31 <gmaxwell> I'm mostly only concerned about the size of crap you can't forget.
1488 2011-11-07 23:11:35 CaptDDL has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1489 2011-11-07 23:11:38 <gmaxwell> network bandwidth is largely its own punishment... stuff in storage hurts everyone for a long time.
1490 2011-11-07 23:12:13 <gmaxwell> Or at least you can deal with abusive behavior in realtime by e.g. dropping connections to floody peers. Not that its easy, but it still is a reasonable discouragement.
1491 2011-11-07 23:13:08 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1492 2011-11-07 23:13:09 <gribble> 152308
1493 2011-11-07 23:13:31 <helo> there needs to be a bitcoin-developer-blessed Bitcoin place page for google+
1494 2011-11-07 23:13:41 <Lolcust> gmaxwell network bandwidth is a different punishment for different folks
1495 2011-11-07 23:13:51 <Lolcust> Same for storage
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1499 2011-11-07 23:14:36 <Lolcust> But ideally, miners / pools should compete over hashrate, not "side dish" stuff like "who will chicken out after gigabyte-sized block"
1500 2011-11-07 23:14:47 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: yes, but it's still ephemeral. I can punish you on the network without using bitcoin at all.
1501 2011-11-07 23:15:21 <Lolcust> gmaxwell: well yes, and pools have suffered that kind of punishment recently out of the blue
1502 2011-11-07 23:15:26 <gmaxwell> You can even cope with the gigablock — all you need is the prev. And then you don't accept any successor transactions for the gigablock until you've finally synced up the whole damn thing.
1503 2011-11-07 23:16:12 <Lolcust> still, the point is, that it would be best if pools and other folks would not have opportunity to screw with blocksizes and stuff to skew the game to their benefit in a roundabout way
1504 2011-11-07 23:16:23 <Lolcust> Current system does a good job of ensuring that
1505 2011-11-07 23:16:33 <gmaxwell> I kinda wish the system could somehow only reward the fee when the fee rewarding txn was respent.
1506 2011-11-07 23:16:41 <gmaxwell> so that txn which are never respend never pay a fee. oh well.
1507 2011-11-07 23:17:00 <sipa> "respend" ?
1508 2011-11-07 23:17:07 <Lolcust> the point would be to encourage hoarding, right gmaxwell ?
1509 2011-11-07 23:17:10 <sipa> its outputs used?
1510 2011-11-07 23:17:21 <gmaxwell> respent. E.g. when its output is used as the input to a new txn.
1511 2011-11-07 23:17:44 <Lolcust> or discourage it ?
1512 2011-11-07 23:18:04 <gmaxwell> so if you mine some obnoxious block that everyone prunes in advance and thus won't mine children of it you'll never get your fee.
1513 2011-11-07 23:19:06 <gmaxwell> yea, well discouraging is a blunt instrument... and its a bad idea unless you know a lot of the hashpower will join you in doing so.
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1515 2011-11-07 23:20:07 <Lolcust> Ah, so it is a "bullshit block discouragement" not an instrument in the never-ending "hoard versus spend, currency versus commodity" ideological conflict, do I read you right gmaxwell ?
1516 2011-11-07 23:20:19 <gmaxwell> I think its a tool we can use, but its a lose/lose tool: Without cartel behavior its not effective, and many kinds of cartel behavior are bad (inhibits the free market)
1517 2011-11-07 23:20:31 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: I don't give a shit about "hoard versus spend, currency versus commodity"
1518 2011-11-07 23:20:41 <Lolcust> good good
1519 2011-11-07 23:20:55 <gmaxwell> I wany the bitcoin users (however you define them— miners, currency holders, people) to be able to keep the system _usable_.
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1521 2011-11-07 23:21:36 <Lolcust> I'm kinda tired of foard/spend "conflict" after the 30th email I got due to TBX not having a mining cap.
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1524 2011-11-07 23:21:58 <sipa> bitcoin is an experiment
1525 2011-11-07 23:21:58 <gmaxwell> And not to have jackass outcomes where someone can stuff 4gb of garbage into the chain in a few days just because they added 1e-8 fees to their txn and it was "net profitable" for some myopic miner to take them.
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1527 2011-11-07 23:22:19 <sipa> on many levels, including an experiment in finite supply currencies
1528 2011-11-07 23:22:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: did you see the discussion where we figured out why there were all those txn with sendmany payments of 1e-8 to vanity addresses.
1529 2011-11-07 23:23:05 <sipa> firstbits, no?
1530 2011-11-07 23:23:09 <gmaxwell> Yes. Yea.
1531 2011-11-07 23:23:13 <Lolcust> sipa that I agree with, I don't mind bitcoin having a cap ^__~ but I also do not think it is - or could become - a currency...but I suspect that is horribly offtopic in this channel
1532 2011-11-07 23:23:39 <sipa> few things are offtopic here, unless a "real" dev discussion is going on
1533 2011-11-07 23:23:40 <gmaxwell> I think there are several megabytes of firstbits registrations in the blockchain, allmost all to whatever genius figured he was going to make a bit profit out of reselling them.
1534 2011-11-07 23:23:42 <Eliel> Lolcust: what do you see as being the difference between Bitcoin and ... a currency?
1535 2011-11-07 23:24:37 <Lolcust> Eliel well, I used to think that it is largely penetration issue, but a certain someone has convinced me (after a fierce email battle) that the main thing is trading / use pattern
1536 2011-11-07 23:24:50 <Lolcust> Let's consider an awesome liquid commodity
1537 2011-11-07 23:24:54 <Lolcust> call it super-gold
1538 2011-11-07 23:25:04 <Lolcust> It's like gold only better in every way ^__^
1539 2011-11-07 23:25:21 <Lolcust> except its trading patterns and use patterns, which are like gold
1540 2011-11-07 23:25:21 <gmaxwell> All kinda pointless because the orgy of autoregistration has made firstbits somewhat unattractive.  So now we've got a big wad of immortal data, for some service which will probably die because of the very same behavior that created the flood.  I don't want to see the system promoting that kind of crap.
1541 2011-11-07 23:25:43 <Lolcust> Now, Eliel, imagine I run a GPU4Supergold business
1542 2011-11-07 23:25:58 <Lolcust> I take your supergold and give you GPUs. Neat deal.
1543 2011-11-07 23:26:36 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1544 2011-11-07 23:26:43 <Lolcust> BUT. I cannot buy new GPUs with supergold, I can't pay taxes with supergold, I can't pay rent with supergold, and basically, I need to sell off some of my supergold just to keep my biz running
1545 2011-11-07 23:27:06 <Lolcust> Supergold is thus a commodity. A really awesome one, but a commodity.
1546 2011-11-07 23:27:16 <Eliel> Lolcust: isn't that a penetration issue?
1547 2011-11-07 23:27:24 <Lolcust> not entirely, no
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1549 2011-11-07 23:27:50 <gmaxwell> penetration won't fix the taxes part, but the rest it could.
1550 2011-11-07 23:28:15 <Lolcust> I am now doubting that you can even have a sustained Supergold -> business process ->supergold without tax man bludgeoning everyone into using supergold
1551 2011-11-07 23:28:16 <sipa> if it is so super, people will want to use it instead of their regular currency, assuming the penetration is good
1552 2011-11-07 23:28:19 <Eliel> it might, eventually, but yes, not guaranteed.
1553 2011-11-07 23:28:32 <Lolcust> sipa - theoretically
1554 2011-11-07 23:28:48 <sipa> economics is not an exact science, of course
1555 2011-11-07 23:28:49 <gmaxwell> (although governments could adopt supergold for tax payments— and perhaps would if thats how everyone wanted the government to pay them)
1556 2011-11-07 23:29:23 <Lolcust> in practice, every example of asset with sufficient penetration to allow end to end (supergold to supergold) business processes is a state-backed currency
1557 2011-11-07 23:29:41 <sipa> i'm not sure
1558 2011-11-07 23:29:58 <sipa> assume everyone wants to use supergold
1559 2011-11-07 23:30:01 <Lolcust> gmaxwell the moment Supergold becomes adopted by a government (thus becoming legal tender) it becomes a currency, yes
1560 2011-11-07 23:30:02 <sipa> and everyone has supsergold
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1562 2011-11-07 23:30:20 <Lolcust> gmaxwell do not that it doesn't have to be USA ^__^
1563 2011-11-07 23:30:23 <sipa> and the only reason the old currency exists, is because the state requires it for taxes
1564 2011-11-07 23:30:31 <gmaxwell> People also fail to realize that bitcoin^wsupergold can solve problems from the politicians— e.g. they don't necessarily want to debase the currency (or moreover they don't want _other_ politicians to debase the currency) but its so damn attractive to do so.
1565 2011-11-07 23:30:49 <Lolcust> sipa no one has ever documented a practical case of non-state backed currency taking over.
1566 2011-11-07 23:30:56 <Lolcust> I do like the general theory
1567 2011-11-07 23:31:01 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: the world is young. ;)
1568 2011-11-07 23:31:12 <Eliel> Lolcust: ok, so the only difference boils down to whether or not a government somewhere endorses it?
1569 2011-11-07 23:31:17 <sipa> sure, but just assume those assumptions hold
1570 2011-11-07 23:31:25 <Lolcust> But I have to agree with Edward_Black here, it is economic speculation in thin air
1571 2011-11-07 23:31:52 <gmaxwell> before now only the state could reasonable make a broadly used currency— the pre-state currencies were all cesspools of fraud. Most of the state operated currencies are very ethical compared to what they largely replaced.
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1574 2011-11-07 23:32:09 <Lolcust> Eliel sort of, yes. Though theoretically, if it gets sufficiently widespread and attractive, it might become a defacto currency w/o state dudes
1575 2011-11-07 23:32:33 <Lolcust> gmaxwell perhaps
1576 2011-11-07 23:32:35 <Lolcust> However
1577 2011-11-07 23:32:45 <Lolcust> The practical point is that NOW
1578 2011-11-07 23:32:53 <gmaxwell> (and they didn't really replace gold, thats fantasy, they replaced gold notes and the like which were as unrelable as any other non-commodity money)
1579 2011-11-07 23:32:55 <Lolcust> BTC is traded, and used, as a really cool commodity
1580 2011-11-07 23:33:12 <Lolcust> Gold coinage BTW was state-backed too )
1581 2011-11-07 23:33:31 <Lolcust> in the good old conquista times, I mean those gold coins
1582 2011-11-07 23:33:46 <sipa> what do you think will happen with the supergold-oldcurrency exchange rate?
1583 2011-11-07 23:34:09 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: without things like anti-forgery edges and such even gold itself gold is a pita as a trade unit, so yes.. thats part of why the state was involved.
1584 2011-11-07 23:34:14 <Eliel> haha, shall we rename bitcoin to supergold? :D
1585 2011-11-07 23:34:45 <gmaxwell> Eliel: Some people seem to think so: http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/06/21/against-the-gold-standard/
1586 2011-11-07 23:34:52 <Lolcust> sipa I think it will stabilize around $3 uless a first adopter or btc-biz will get robbed or decide to cash out
1587 2011-11-07 23:35:03 <gmaxwell> I found that article pretty compelling, it opened my mind some about the function and qualities of money.
1588 2011-11-07 23:36:21 <Lolcust> Now, me personally, I think that despite BTC trading as a commodity and being used in business cycles as a commodity (BTC->biz->exchange->USD/EUR/whatev.), it is neither a commodity nor a currency
1589 2011-11-07 23:37:04 <Lolcust> It is a distributed database service  created through nontrivial use of cryptography and pretending to be a commodity ^__~
1590 2011-11-07 23:37:06 <sipa> what is your definition of commodity and currency then?
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1593 2011-11-07 23:37:51 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: ::shrugs:: dollars are pieces of paper.
1594 2011-11-07 23:38:01 <sipa> well gold is a distributed awe-incuding shinyness created through nontrivial use of mining tools and pretending to be a commidity?
1595 2011-11-07 23:38:09 <sipa> awe-inducing
1596 2011-11-07 23:38:11 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: gold is some decayed radioactive waste from supernova.
1597 2011-11-07 23:38:20 <gmaxwell> or what sipa said.
1598 2011-11-07 23:38:30 <Lolcust> Dollars are actually state promise to beat the crap out of anyone who fails to give certain pieces of paper to taxman gmaxwell =)
1599 2011-11-07 23:38:42 <sipa> or to anyone
1600 2011-11-07 23:38:49 <gmaxwell> Everything has a boring embodyment if you go deep enough. You are just a bloated bag of mostly water. ;)
1601 2011-11-07 23:38:59 <Lolcust> That ensures that there WILL be demand for those pieces, no matter how much they devalue
1602 2011-11-07 23:39:03 <sipa> if you owe me, and i can get the state to agree with me, they will beat the crap out of your too
1603 2011-11-07 23:39:38 <Lolcust> sipa actually, gold is a commodity that induces psychosis in goldbugs and affilated investors
1604 2011-11-07 23:39:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: to be fair, remedies for civil action are far less serious than criminal ones. e.g. generally hard to get imprisoned over monetary matters.
1605 2011-11-07 23:39:52 <Diablo-D3> Lolcust: didnt work on me.
1606 2011-11-07 23:39:52 <Lolcust> Its primary value stems from its ability to make goldbugs go nuts
1607 2011-11-07 23:40:10 * Diablo-D3 goes over to the emergency panel
1608 2011-11-07 23:40:25 <Lolcust> Diablo-D3: what , gold ? doesn't work on me too
1609 2011-11-07 23:40:28 <Diablo-D3> "in case of outbreak of common sense, use hammer to break glass"
1610 2011-11-07 23:40:40 <Diablo-D3> HALT, HAMMERZEIT!
1611 2011-11-07 23:40:49 * Diablo-D3 shuffles out of the channel
1612 2011-11-07 23:40:53 <sipa> when all you have is a hammer...
1613 2011-11-07 23:41:03 <Lolcust> But it works on enough people to give it odd trading patterns that put it into a separate category, above all other commodities
1614 2011-11-07 23:42:00 sacarlson has joined
1615 2011-11-07 23:42:18 <Lolcust> sipa, as for definitions, currency is a specific kind of commodity that can be used as money and has a property of being both one of the inputs and the "profit" output of majority of a given economy's business processes
1616 2011-11-07 23:42:37 <sipa> so, a penetration issue?
1617 2011-11-07 23:42:47 <Lolcust> Well, I used to think so
1618 2011-11-07 23:42:50 <Lolcust> Now I am not sure
1619 2011-11-07 23:43:01 <Lolcust> It might be a conformity enforcement issue
1620 2011-11-07 23:43:18 <Lolcust> No big guy with baton = no currencies proper
1621 2011-11-07 23:43:25 <lolcat> Is bitcoins illegal?
1622 2011-11-07 23:43:29 CaptainDDL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1623 2011-11-07 23:43:33 <Lolcust> Depends
1624 2011-11-07 23:44:07 <sipa> lolcat: paying someone in btc to kill off someone else, is most likely illegal
1625 2011-11-07 23:45:04 <Lolcust> lolcat, for your hitman funding needs, use Tenebrix (after I manage to get coders for making fee-burning happen, so laundry creation can start)
1626 2011-11-07 23:45:17 <sipa> what is fee-burning?
1627 2011-11-07 23:45:36 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: oh you have something to do iwth tenebrix?
1628 2011-11-07 23:45:41 <Lolcust> eh, sipa basically this : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48114.msg573722#msg573722
1629 2011-11-07 23:46:11 <Lolcust> gmaxwell I am the one who kinda set its ball rolling, and the guy responsible for the laundry project's existence
1630 2011-11-07 23:46:16 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: Since art hasn't responded to my email yet— Do you know why your scrypt function uses such a small amount of ram? It might frustrate GPUs, but it looks perfectly agreeable to ultra-fast FPGA implementations on the same FPGAs people are using for bitcoin mining.
1631 2011-11-07 23:46:44 <Lolcust> gmaxwell Art tried to make it run decent-ish on his FPGA army
1632 2011-11-07 23:46:55 <Lolcust> I think there was a thread about its un-success
1633 2011-11-07 23:47:23 <gmaxwell> IIRC S6-LX150 has about 1.3 megabytes of distributed sram, so other than routing issues I don't know why it wouldn't be utterly fast as hell on it.
1634 2011-11-07 23:47:36 <Lolcust> Basically, a $500 FPGA sorta matches a Phenom II hexcore
1635 2011-11-07 23:47:45 <Lolcust> if "done Art way"
1636 2011-11-07 23:47:51 Guest33500 has joined
1637 2011-11-07 23:48:46 <gmaxwell> hm. surprising. if you find that thread please point me to it.
1638 2011-11-07 23:49:39 aga has joined
1639 2011-11-07 23:49:47 <Lolcust> Art's sadly kinda busy right now, he's extremely needed for TBX's unique "blockchain-frugal intra network   messaging service" which is needed for laundry to be able to work without website and without shittying up blockchain too much (and also to allow reciever-agnostic intra-network communication between users)
1640 2011-11-07 23:50:05 <Lolcust> It's a neat thing he came up with
1641 2011-11-07 23:50:20 <Lolcust> let me see if I can find the thread
1642 2011-11-07 23:50:35 ThomasV has joined
1643 2011-11-07 23:52:15 disq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1644 2011-11-07 23:53:42 CaptDDL has joined
1645 2011-11-07 23:53:49 <Lolcust> gmaxwell ah IC, the thread was mostly about GPUs https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45849.0 but I distinctly recall Art mentioning that his FPGA army is no better than a pile of Phenoms in terms of raw perfomance, perhaps in IRC
1646 2011-11-07 23:54:32 Guest33500 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1647 2011-11-07 23:54:46 <Lolcust> Methinks I might do a PoW update to a more "angry" scrypt if / when TBX gets its major comm system and laundry update.
1648 2011-11-07 23:55:11 <Lolcust> But fee burnin' comes first ) So that Eddy would get off my damn back with his MBA
1649 2011-11-07 23:56:38 <Eliel> Lolcust: don't go overboard with it, people won't have fun waiting ages for the blockchain to do the first load :)
1650 2011-11-07 23:58:14 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: I'd be surprised if your scrypt was memoryhard enough to prevent massive speedups from fpga, and very surprised if it was memory hard enough to enable massive speedups (per unit cost) vs a custom asic. Generally the theory is that a general purpose computer has a lot of transistors already, and you want to put as many of them as use as possible to avoid big speedups on custom hardware.. that means using lots of the jucy gates in the
1651 2011-11-07 23:58:28 <gmaxwell> Eliel: it doesn't have to be computationally worse, just more memory hard.
1652 2011-11-07 23:58:38 <Lolcust> Eliel well, N=4096,p=8 is kinda bearabl-ish (though poor old Athlons XPs and PS3s will be out of the game, which kinda sucks since  I kinda want PS3 hobbysts in)
1653 2011-11-07 23:58:41 coblee has quit (2!coblee@unaffiliated/coblee2/x-8796876|Quit: coblee|2)
1654 2011-11-07 23:59:08 CaptDDL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)