1 2011-11-08 00:00:41 <Lolcust> gmaxwell well, at this point one has to see what the speedups are and what unit costs are
   2 2011-11-08 00:01:02 <Lolcust> Should "non-cpu scrypt supercruncher" emerge, PoW update will happen
   3 2011-11-08 00:01:20 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
   4 2011-11-08 00:01:41 <Lolcust> And modifying scrypt propeer (and not just its params) is not entirely out of the question (as long as ArtForz kindly provides his expertiese)
   5 2011-11-08 00:01:44 <makomk> gmaxwell: have you looked at how much die space on modern CPUs is filled with cache?
   6 2011-11-08 00:02:30 <Mqrius> ThomasV: Thanks again for your code. It was really convenient to hack some debug info into it, and also to hack a hijack into it to broadcast my own transaction :) And it seems to be working now :D
   7 2011-11-08 00:02:34 <Lolcust> gmaxwell , so far, the most promissing "not entirely lab exotica" scrypt supercruncher candidates are top-notch APUs
   8 2011-11-08 00:02:41 <gmaxwell> makomk: yep. multiported sram gobbles up gates and powers.
   9 2011-11-08 00:03:08 <Lolcust> But that's pure theory since no one tried optimizing TBX pow for APUs
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  13 2011-11-08 00:03:38 <makomk> I'm not honestly convinced we're likely to get anything better than CPUs for even scrypt as small as that in Tenebrix etc.
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  17 2011-11-08 00:04:45 <Lolcust> makomk well, updatin to   N=4096,p=8  "just in case" at some point after the fee-burning and commsys / laundry overhauls might be a decent idea
  18 2011-11-08 00:04:47 <gmaxwell> makomk: there is _more_ sram on the 45nm FPGAS that cost $150 though. Not as highly clocked, true... but thats really the only saving grace.
  19 2011-11-08 00:05:37 <gmaxwell> in any case, I shouldn't be arguing. I'm not going to bother actually trying to implement it, it just looked odd to me.
  20 2011-11-08 00:05:54 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  21 2011-11-08 00:06:25 <Lolcust> Generally, I am of the opinion that problems should be solved as they arrive, and currently fee burning is first in pipeline, followed by comm and the promissed laundry system.
  22 2011-11-08 00:06:52 <Lolcust> Should optimized scryptminers start popping up, this issue will be addressed
  23 2011-11-08 00:07:00 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  24 2011-11-08 00:07:13 <gmaxwell> one of the things I think the scrypt designers got wrong is that they didn't address modern memory hierarchies well— e.g. there should be two stages of memory hardness.
  25 2011-11-08 00:07:53 theorbtwo has joined
  26 2011-11-08 00:08:17 <Lolcust> gmaxwell hmmm... care to elaborate, I'm taking notes ^__^
  27 2011-11-08 00:08:44 darkmethod has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
  28 2011-11-08 00:08:55 <Lolcust> ?
  29 2011-11-08 00:09:00 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
  30 2011-11-08 00:09:40 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: well, it goes back to what I said before: your computer has a lot of gates already. If you use only 1% of them then thats 99% a dedicated miner can throw out to get an advantage on you. IIRC scrypt treats memory as a flat unit, in your PC it's not, you have low latency on chip ram and high latency off chip ram.
  31 2011-11-08 00:10:20 <gmaxwell> If you use too much ram with scrypt you underutilize the ALU gates on the chip (they sit idle waiting for off chip ram)  if you use small enough ram to stay on chip you underutilize the billions of gates in offchip ram.
  32 2011-11-08 00:11:28 <Lolcust> Well, IIRC TBX PoW is carved so that stuff is mostly fitting in L2 cache, which GPUs and FPGAs don't have in sufficient supply
  33 2011-11-08 00:12:30 nameless has quit (!~root@weowntheinter.net|Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  34 2011-11-08 00:13:18 <Lolcust> Thrashing RAM proper would make mining very...unsubtle as far as overall system responsiveness is concerned
  35 2011-11-08 00:13:55 <gmaxwell> FPGAs do have a lot of sram though, much more than the L2 in random cpus, so if they're not fast it's only because of routing constraints (its there but it's spread out and not where you need it, making accesses slow or using up all your resources getting to it), or just because the 45nm FPGAS don't reach high clockrates most of the time.
  36 2011-11-08 00:14:06 Kolky has quit (Quit: Bye bye!)
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  39 2011-11-08 00:15:13 <makomk> The biggest Spartan-6 appears to top out at 1.36 megabits of distributed RAM plus 4.8 megabits of block RAM, maximum.
  40 2011-11-08 00:15:40 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: 'thrashing' isn't required. Using 10 megabytes would increase the required transitors by 80 million or so per instance.
  41 2011-11-08 00:15:43 TheZimm has joined
  42 2011-11-08 00:15:58 <gmaxwell> makomk: IIRC the tenebrix scrypt is using 128 kilobits of ram.
  43 2011-11-08 00:16:57 <Lolcust> gmaxwell big and expensive ones have lots of sram, and like you said, even they don't have it arrange quite scrypt-friendly
  44 2011-11-08 00:17:08 <makomk> ArtForz's comment seems to say 128 kilobytes.
  45 2011-11-08 00:17:44 <Lolcust> LX150  is about 512kB and costs like $200 right ?
  46 2011-11-08 00:18:14 <gmaxwell> makomk: you sure about that?
  47 2011-11-08 00:18:59 <makomk> Not 100%, but I *think* I worked it out as 128 kilobytes from the parapmeters given a while ago too.
  48 2011-11-08 00:19:10 <Mqrius> Anyone have suggestions for a no-BS filesharing site for small files?
  49 2011-11-08 00:19:25 <gmaxwell> okay, well, then thats different. I really thought it was 128kbit from the implementation I saw.
  50 2011-11-08 00:20:10 <lolcat> Lolcust: tenebrix?
  51 2011-11-08 00:20:15 <Lolcust> IIRC it is 128 kilobytes
  52 2011-11-08 00:20:19 <Lolcust> lolcat: yeah
  53 2011-11-08 00:20:33 <Lolcust> an alt-coin I kinda...well... inspire )
  54 2011-11-08 00:20:59 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  55 2011-11-08 00:21:30 <lolcat> Lolcust: Can I trade my bitcoins for tenebrix?
  56 2011-11-08 00:21:38 <Lolcust> Mqrius: mediafire works because mediafire works
  57 2011-11-08 00:21:45 <Lolcust> lolcat: sure
  58 2011-11-08 00:21:51 <Lolcust> It's damn cheap now
  59 2011-11-08 00:22:04 <sipa> what's the exchange rate?
  60 2011-11-08 00:22:19 <lfm> Mqrius: depends what level of "no-bs" you mean. have you tried pastebin?
  61 2011-11-08 00:22:20 <Lolcust> Because 1) ArtForz is verybusy 2) I need more C / ++ devs to help out
  62 2011-11-08 00:22:27 <Lolcust> so it's in a mite of coma
  63 2011-11-08 00:22:39 <lolcat> Lolcust: Can I mine them?
  64 2011-11-08 00:22:44 <Mqrius> lfm: not that small :P A few files together, in a zip
  65 2011-11-08 00:22:50 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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  67 2011-11-08 00:22:53 <Lolcust> sipa:  0.001189 BTC per TBX
  68 2011-11-08 00:23:02 <Lolcust> lolcat: yes of course you can
  69 2011-11-08 00:23:08 <Lolcust> go to tenebrix.org
  70 2011-11-08 00:23:16 <Lolcust> I have a windows bundle cooked
  71 2011-11-08 00:23:30 <Lolcust> linux is best compiled from git ^__^
  72 2011-11-08 00:23:45 <sipa> Mqrius: saw my rawtx branch?
  73 2011-11-08 00:23:53 <Lolcust> don't forget it needs custom ArtForz miner
  74 2011-11-08 00:23:56 <lolcat> Lolcust: can you compile for me?
  75 2011-11-08 00:24:14 <Lolcust> lolcat for which lin ? I haz ubunty and Fedora on hand
  76 2011-11-08 00:24:19 bitcoinbulletin has joined
  77 2011-11-08 00:24:30 <Mqrius> sipa: didn't get around to it. I used ThomasV's python client, and hacked that to give me a raw tx, and to send my homebrew tx
  78 2011-11-08 00:24:39 <Mqrius> But thanks for the suggestion :)
  79 2011-11-08 00:24:41 <sipa> ok
  80 2011-11-08 00:25:06 <lolcat> Lolcust: For squeeze. I don't understand this phrase from the site: "Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum.
  81 2011-11-08 00:25:10 <Lolcust> lolcat: baiscally, investigate http://tenebrix.org/ and https://btc-e.com/exchange/tbx_btc
  82 2011-11-08 00:25:17 <Lolcust> oh crap
  83 2011-11-08 00:25:18 <Lolcust> moment
  84 2011-11-08 00:25:37 <Lolcust> looks like backup is very backup
  85 2011-11-08 00:25:49 <Lolcust> Had to recently restore from BU due to ... issues
  86 2011-11-08 00:25:54 <lolcat> Lolcust: The requested URL /faucet was not found on this server.
  87 2011-11-08 00:25:56 <Lolcust> daymn, will fix tommorow
  88 2011-11-08 00:26:16 <Lolcust> faucet is down and standing by for a better, goo-app friendly one to emerge
  89 2011-11-08 00:26:43 <Lolcust> eh, restoring from backups is such a PITA :(
  90 2011-11-08 00:26:47 <lolcat> Lolcust: Why can't I mine it with my cpu?
  91 2011-11-08 00:26:53 <lolcat> err, gpu
  92 2011-11-08 00:26:57 <lolcat> Lolcust: do you have a channel?
  93 2011-11-08 00:27:08 <Lolcust> lolcat #Tenebrix
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  95 2011-11-08 00:28:19 <Lolcust> lolcat: it uses a PoW that gives GPUs a bad fur day
  96 2011-11-08 00:31:53 <Lolcust> sipa so... what's your opinion on the fee-burning shenanigan ?
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 100 2011-11-08 00:37:47 Guest19716 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 101 2011-11-08 00:38:59 <eyyeye> Hi is in TODO list something like descentralize the blockchain or an option to connect client on external servers?
 102 2011-11-08 00:39:38 amtal has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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 106 2011-11-08 00:43:30 <gmaxwell> ... decenteralize the blockchain?! it's already completely decenteralized.
 107 2011-11-08 00:43:33 btc_novice has left ()
 108 2011-11-08 00:44:42 <Lolcust> I think kind mister would like downloading to be more torrentlike, though to the best of my knowledge it is already pretty torrentlike
 109 2011-11-08 00:44:58 <eyyeye> gmaxwell: forguet the stupid question. But what about connect on external servers?
 110 2011-11-08 00:45:09 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: yea, the downloading isn't the slow part anyways. The validating is...
 111 2011-11-08 00:45:48 <gmaxwell> eyyeye: some people have talked about being able to run a thin wallet client with a remote trusted bitcoin node... and BlueMatt worked on some patches to that effect but it's not really planned right now.
 112 2011-11-08 00:46:03 <eyyeye> ha ok
 113 2011-11-08 00:46:04 <gmaxwell> I think quite a few people would like to see it, but it would be a considerable amount of work.
 114 2011-11-08 00:46:44 <eyyeye> hum
 115 2011-11-08 00:47:03 <eyyeye> but it's necessary to trust on the external sever right?
 116 2011-11-08 00:47:44 CaptDDL has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 117 2011-11-08 00:47:51 <eyyeye> ok, forguet. I'm newbie, better wait to things happen
 118 2011-11-08 00:48:25 <justmoon> gmaxwell, bitcoinjs is made for that purpose - we're already running a permanent server like that at exit.trucoin.com - api documentation to be found under: https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit/wiki/
 119 2011-11-08 00:48:57 <gmaxwell> justmoon: thanks, I keep forgetting about that.
 120 2011-11-08 00:49:07 <eyyeye> where I can see a client based on bitcoinjs?
 121 2011-11-08 00:49:09 <justmoon> there is a browser and mobile browser based client in the works (webcoin), a desktop client (safebit) and a native android client (by trucoin)
 122 2011-11-08 00:49:16 <gmaxwell> (mostly because I quite wrongfully consider JS stuff to be not-software ;) )
 123 2011-11-08 00:49:22 CaptDDL has joined
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 125 2011-11-08 00:49:31 CaptDDL has joined
 126 2011-11-08 00:50:10 <Mqrius> javascript is surprisingly nice to code in. Not python-nice, but rather convenient with its object/dictionary-style
 127 2011-11-08 00:50:20 theorb has joined
 128 2011-11-08 00:50:43 <eyyeye> browser based client is any browser extension?
 129 2011-11-08 00:51:03 <eyyeye> where can i download safebit?
 130 2011-11-08 00:51:08 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 131 2011-11-08 00:51:11 <justmoon> eyyeye, here is a video of webcoin in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTmFwnIRG9c
 132 2011-11-08 00:51:20 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
 133 2011-11-08 00:51:50 <justmoon> eyyeye, you can't download any of the clients yet - except webcoin which is not currently working: https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui
 134 2011-11-08 00:52:09 <eyyeye> hum
 135 2011-11-08 00:52:19 <eyyeye> so wait to be released
 136 2011-11-08 00:52:33 <eyyeye> thanks for the info
 137 2011-11-08 00:52:46 <justmoon> yes, the holdup is because for a browser-based client, you need the client itself to be untrusted
 138 2011-11-08 00:52:53 <justmoon> the only way to do that is with split key cryptography
 139 2011-11-08 00:53:14 <justmoon> so I've been working with a cryptographer from UCLA on a split key ECDSA signing algorithm
 140 2011-11-08 00:53:22 <justmoon> and gavin has been working on a script-based solution
 141 2011-11-08 00:53:35 <justmoon> as soon as one of these is implemented, webcoin will be developed
 142 2011-11-08 00:53:52 Internet13 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 144 2011-11-08 00:55:12 <eyyeye> understand
 145 2011-11-08 00:55:45 <justmoon> if you want to see the split key algorithm we're working on in action, you can point your chrome to: http://www2.bitcoinjs.org/bitcoinjs-lib/demo/split-key.html
 146 2011-11-08 00:57:10 CaptDDL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 147 2011-11-08 00:59:11 <eyyeye> bitcoin official client can use bitcoinjs library to be able to connect on external servers? or will have their own implementation?
 148 2011-11-08 00:59:54 <justmoon> the decision was pretty much to develop it independently of the original client, since the original client needs to remain stable and the new stuff needs to become stable
 149 2011-11-08 01:00:03 CaptDDL has joined
 150 2011-11-08 01:01:06 <eyyeye> ok
 151 2011-11-08 01:01:20 <justmoon> it conceivable that somebody creates a client for this system though based on the bitcoin-qt code - I just don't know of anybody working on that
 152 2011-11-08 01:01:47 <justmoon> safebit and webcoin are both javascript and the native android client is java obviously
 153 2011-11-08 01:01:56 <Mqrius> If anyone is interested in generating transactions purely in javascript based on a private key and a history like http://is.gd/GoZ0Y0 , I have finally finished a script for that: http://is.gd/kHpZPR
 154 2011-11-08 01:01:58 <Eliel> justmoon: wouldn't split-key algo be more vulnerable to one part of the keyu leaking?
 155 2011-11-08 01:02:13 <eyyeye> the android client is opensource?
 156 2011-11-08 01:03:03 <justmoon> eyyeye, sorry, not yet
 157 2011-11-08 01:03:37 <justmoon> Eliel, the shares are multiplicative, each share does not contain a single bit of information about the other share or the final key
 158 2011-11-08 01:03:41 <eyyeye> ok
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 163 2011-11-08 01:05:19 <Eliel> justmoon: ah, ok, that solves that then.
 164 2011-11-08 01:05:23 * Mqrius thinks... split key EC with 2 keys I can imagine. Your privkey would just be split1 * split2 (mod fieldsize, etc). But how would you do split key where 2 out of 3 is enough?
 165 2011-11-08 01:06:15 <Eliel> it will work for the n of n subcases at least
 166 2011-11-08 01:06:27 devrandom has joined
 167 2011-11-08 01:06:35 <Mqrius> Yeah, that I can imagine indeed
 168 2011-11-08 01:06:59 <justmoon> Mqrius, right now I'm working only on the 2-key version. you can do n-of-n by extending the two party protocol into a ring. m-of-n is possible by generating a version of the key encrypted in a m-of-n paillier threshold cryptosystem, calculating the signature homomorphically and then decrypting it with m shares
 169 2011-11-08 01:07:33 <justmoon> for webcoin we only need the two-key version so honestly I've included the basic idea for how you could do m-of-n under future work in the paper, but I don't know I'll ever actually work on it :)
 170 2011-11-08 01:08:18 <Mqrius> Heh okay
 171 2011-11-08 01:08:47 <Eliel> this actually sounds nicer than implementing multikey in script.
 172 2011-11-08 01:08:56 <Eliel> won't burden the network.
 173 2011-11-08 01:09:06 <Eliel> or require breaking changes.
 174 2011-11-08 01:09:23 <Mqrius> Eliel: Multikey would be easier to understand, so would make it easier for bitcoin tools to pop up
 175 2011-11-08 01:09:33 <justmoon> Eliel, both have pros and cons - the pure crypto way you have to be very careful to design your algorithms correctly
 176 2011-11-08 01:09:44 <Eliel> true that :)
 177 2011-11-08 01:09:45 <justmoon> with scripts you can just rely on standard ecdsa and you don't have to do any math
 178 2011-11-08 01:09:47 <Eliel> not trivial
 179 2011-11-08 01:09:53 <justmoon> lot of people don't like to do math *looks at gavin*
 180 2011-11-08 01:09:56 <justmoon> :P
 181 2011-11-08 01:10:25 * Mqrius liked looking up how EC worked for novelty address generation
 182 2011-11-08 01:11:00 <Eliel> me neither, even though I've studied enough of it that I can do with just math as my minor :)
 183 2011-11-08 01:11:15 <Eliel> major would be CS
 184 2011-11-08 01:11:41 <Eliel> I do like looking at how things work more than actually making them work though :P
 185 2011-11-08 01:12:12 marf_away has joined
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 187 2011-11-08 01:12:54 <Mqrius> justmoon: two party protocol would be: both parties generate a privkey, and send the corresponding pubkey (fieldpoint) to eachother. They then add their own (basepoint*privkey) to the fieldpoint, and both get the same fieldpoint as a result?
 188 2011-11-08 01:13:59 <justmoon> yes
 189 2011-11-08 01:14:08 <Mqrius> kay :)
 190 2011-11-08 01:14:21 <justmoon> that's the initialization step though - the hard part is generating the signature :)
 191 2011-11-08 01:14:44 <CIA-34> libbitcoin: Kamil Domanski * rdb755ca0e5ff /src/storage/postgresql/postgresql_storage.cpp: fixed a little problem with PostgreSQL on some systems
 192 2011-11-08 01:14:46 <Mqrius> Yeah... I haven't looked into signatures yet. I externalized that to bitcoinjs-lib :D
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 194 2011-11-08 01:15:17 <justmoon> I should also point out that this initialization only works thanks to EC point verification
 195 2011-11-08 01:15:36 <justmoon> i.e. the fact that you can prove a point is a valid non-infinite point on the curve
 196 2011-11-08 01:15:37 Beremat has joined
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 198 2011-11-08 01:16:12 <Mqrius> Huh? Why does that matter?
 199 2011-11-08 01:16:20 <Mqrius> Or does it matter assuming a malicious 2nd party?
 200 2011-11-08 01:16:26 <justmoon> exactly
 201 2011-11-08 01:16:43 <Mqrius> okay
 202 2011-11-08 01:17:04 <Mqrius> But for splitkey, you probably trust both parties anyway, no?
 203 2011-11-08 01:17:10 <Mqrius> Hm, maybe not
 204 2011-11-08 01:17:34 <justmoon> no, we assume either one party is malicious and their communication is compromised as well
 205 2011-11-08 01:17:54 <Mqrius> oka;y
 206 2011-11-08 01:17:57 <justmoon> if both parties are malicious, you lose obviously
 207 2011-11-08 01:18:00 <Mqrius> heh yeah
 208 2011-11-08 01:18:21 <justmoon> but the whole point is that if one of them is malicious, i.e. your client is hacked or your wallet provider is evil, that case is still safe
 209 2011-11-08 01:18:46 <Mqrius> yup
 210 2011-11-08 01:19:13 <Mqrius> Won't signing be very troublesome then though? Or are you planning on abstracting that away from the user entirely?
 211 2011-11-08 01:19:15 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 212 2011-11-08 01:19:49 <justmoon> for the user making a high security transaction will go like this:
 213 2011-11-08 01:20:01 cocktopus has joined
 214 2011-11-08 01:20:02 <justmoon> he enters the terms of the transaction and clicks send
 215 2011-11-08 01:20:11 <justmoon> his mobile phone hums and an SMS with a code appears
 216 2011-11-08 01:20:15 wolfspraul has joined
 217 2011-11-08 01:20:16 <justmoon> he enters the code in the client
 218 2011-11-08 01:20:22 <justmoon> the client works for a couple of seconds
 219 2011-11-08 01:20:26 <justmoon> then confirms the transaction
 220 2011-11-08 01:20:39 <Mqrius> Oh that's pretty convenient
 221 2011-11-08 01:20:46 <Mqrius> and also just like some banks currently work
 222 2011-11-08 01:20:49 <Mqrius> So yeah
 223 2011-11-08 01:21:52 stalled has joined
 224 2011-11-08 01:22:33 <Eliel> that sounds quite handy
 225 2011-11-08 01:22:49 <Eliel> can't make it much easier :)
 226 2011-11-08 01:23:16 <Eliel> except for the part where you feed the number into the client
 227 2011-11-08 01:23:37 <justmoon> the code isn't anything cryptographic, it's just any code
 228 2011-11-08 01:23:43 <justmoon> i.e. it could be five letters
 229 2011-11-08 01:23:57 <justmoon> whatever the server deems to be secure enough
 230 2011-11-08 01:24:05 <Eliel> ah right, it's just the e-wallet service making sure it's you.
 231 2011-11-08 01:24:23 <justmoon> yes, you can substitute any authentication method that banks use
 232 2011-11-08 01:24:27 <Mqrius> For my bank it's 5 numbers, I think
 233 2011-11-08 01:24:37 <justmoon> what's important is that it provides an out of band verification of the payment details
 234 2011-11-08 01:24:49 <Eliel> for my bank, it's a card with lots of 4 digit numbers that are each only used once.
 235 2011-11-08 01:24:54 <justmoon> i.e. along with the code it says where the transaction is going to go and how much it is
 236 2011-11-08 01:24:58 crazy_imp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 237 2011-11-08 01:25:03 <justmoon> so you can verify that information is right
 238 2011-11-08 01:25:08 <Eliel> they send me a new card when I get close to running out
 239 2011-11-08 01:25:28 <Mqrius> Eliel: That's what my bank used -- before 2000. Now I get text messages.
 240 2011-11-08 01:25:39 <justmoon> Mqrius, same here
 241 2011-11-08 01:25:49 <justmoon> although my bank only switched this year :D
 242 2011-11-08 01:26:14 <Mqrius> I'm exaggerating though, it was probably ~2005
 243 2011-11-08 01:26:19 * Eliel wonders if they'll switch to something like yubi-key soon.
 244 2011-11-08 01:26:29 <Mqrius> And the paper option is still available I think
 245 2011-11-08 01:26:34 <justmoon> my bank in germany has a different system, they have a little plastic thing you hold up to the screen and they have some flickering squares and it decodes that
 246 2011-11-08 01:26:41 crazy_imp has joined
 247 2011-11-08 01:26:49 <justmoon> I much prefer the sms way though
 248 2011-11-08 01:26:53 <Mqrius> yeah
 249 2011-11-08 01:27:03 <Eliel> lots of variety in those :)
 250 2011-11-08 01:27:24 <justmoon> you could use yubikey as well of course, the problem there is that if your computer is compromised you can't trust your monitor
 251 2011-11-08 01:27:43 <justmoon> i.e. it might show "send 2 btc to mum" and in reality you're confirming "send 2000 BTC to evil russian scammer"
 252 2011-11-08 01:28:34 <Diablo-D3> dude
 253 2011-11-08 01:28:37 <Eliel> true, although, that kind of attack takes quite a bit of an effort from the evil russian scammer.
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 255 2011-11-08 01:28:45 <Diablo-D3> if they can make my client send 2000btc to them
 256 2011-11-08 01:28:46 <Diablo-D3> let them try
 257 2011-11-08 01:28:50 <Mqrius> hehe
 258 2011-11-08 01:28:53 <Diablo-D3> current balance: not 2000 btc.
 259 2011-11-08 01:29:12 <Mqrius> Current balance: 0.2, 0.1 pending :D
 260 2011-11-08 01:29:15 <justmoon> Diablo-D3, being broke is an effective defense against scammers :D
 261 2011-11-08 01:29:18 <Mqrius> expected: +20 :P
 262 2011-11-08 01:30:11 <justmoon> one more thing that I couldn't fit into the discussion but want to mention: you will also be able to have the provider mail or maybe fax you the server-side keys
 263 2011-11-08 01:30:28 <justmoon> so that when they disappear you can send them to another server and not lose your money
 264 2011-11-08 01:30:45 <justmoon> (when the server pulls a mybitcoin for example)
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 266 2011-11-08 01:31:31 <Mqrius> That sounds like a good idea. Then again, you also want to back up /your own/ keys somewhere
 267 2011-11-08 01:31:39 <Mqrius> So you're still backing up etc
 268 2011-11-08 01:31:44 <justmoon> right and your own keys you can print out yourself
 269 2011-11-08 01:31:51 <Mqrius> Therefore 2 out of 3 is a nice idea
 270 2011-11-08 01:31:53 <Mqrius> :P
 271 2011-11-08 01:32:21 <justmoon> how do you mean?
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 273 2011-11-08 01:32:49 <Mqrius> Well, if I have 2 out of 3, I will have 1 on my PC, 1 on my mobile, and 1 on mybitcoin/ewallet
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 275 2011-11-08 01:32:54 <Eliel> so there's 2 sets you have and one set the e-wallet service has.
 276 2011-11-08 01:33:00 <Mqrius> yeah
 277 2011-11-08 01:33:08 <Mqrius> then backing up is not that important anymore
 278 2011-11-08 01:33:16 <Mqrius> and we all know no one backups anyway
 279 2011-11-08 01:33:50 <justmoon> well, how is that different from having the same set of keys on your mobile and pc?
 280 2011-11-08 01:34:09 <justmoon> i.e. having one half on each of your clients and the other half is at the wallet provider/server
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 282 2011-11-08 01:34:09 <Mqrius> if my mobile drops into the pond, I can still access my money
 283 2011-11-08 01:34:11 <Eliel> you can claim your money with just you mobile and pc
 284 2011-11-08 01:34:24 <Mqrius> oh uh
 285 2011-11-08 01:34:34 <justmoon> Eliel, that's why I recommend getting a paper backup of the server keys
 286 2011-11-08 01:34:48 <Mqrius> justmoon: Then you have to have 4 sets of keys
 287 2011-11-08 01:34:50 <Mqrius> 2x2
 288 2011-11-08 01:34:53 <justmoon> Eliel, then you can claim your money with any of your devices plus the paper backup
 289 2011-11-08 01:34:59 <Mqrius> while with 2 out of 3, it's 3 sets: 3x1
 290 2011-11-08 01:35:21 <Eliel> yes, the paper backup is a good idea.
 291 2011-11-08 01:35:21 <justmoon> Mqrius, don't see how that matters :)
 292 2011-11-08 01:36:03 <Mqrius> justmoon: You need 4 trusted places. You don't want a "full set of keys" in one place
 293 2011-11-08 01:36:12 <Diablo-D3> just 4?
 294 2011-11-08 01:36:21 <justmoon> Mqrius, well, no, you need two trusted places
 295 2011-11-08 01:36:35 <Mqrius> Uhm yeah, make that semi-trusted
 296 2011-11-08 01:36:37 <Diablo-D3> you need two, and both of them need to be encrypted on top of that.
 297 2011-11-08 01:37:30 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r001a93c / lib/db/mongo/storage.js : Re-add MongoDB indexes. - http://git.io/rKYnYw
 298 2011-11-08 01:38:22 <Mqrius> hmmm
 299 2011-11-08 01:38:52 <Mqrius> Not sure.
 300 2011-11-08 01:39:17 <Mqrius> But on an unrelated note: I saw something about paillier in bitcoinjs-lib. Did they already implement it?
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 302 2011-11-08 01:39:49 <justmoon> yes, see the demo link I posted above
 303 2011-11-08 01:42:38 <Mqrius> Looks nice :) Too bad I don't understand it yet
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 305 2011-11-08 01:43:47 <justmoon> Mqrius, it's pretty impossible to understand without the paper, I don't want to publish the unfinished paper, but i can private message you a link, hang on
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 307 2011-11-08 01:44:15 <Mqrius> thanks :)
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 355 2011-11-08 03:21:27 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r93031c0 / (3 files in 3 dirs): Fixes script verification error related to hashType. Adds test case. - http://git.io/qua_oQ
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 375 2011-11-08 03:42:05 <slush> Anybody knows what error message " Transaction commit failed" during sendmany means?
 376 2011-11-08 03:42:29 <slush> I'm getting this in namecoind, but it should be same as in bitcoind as it is sharing codebase with 0.3.24
 377 2011-11-08 03:43:38 <justmoon> it means the transaction wasn't accepted to the memory pool after it was created
 378 2011-11-08 03:44:11 <justmoon> I don't know enough about the wallet part of bitcoind to be more helpful, sorry
 379 2011-11-08 03:44:35 <justmoon> what does the bitcoind log say?
 380 2011-11-08 03:44:48 <justmoon> or namecoin log as it may be
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 384 2011-11-08 03:46:52 <phantomcircuit> slush, might want to ask bluematt
 385 2011-11-08 03:46:56 <phantomcircuit> when he's around
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 387 2011-11-08 03:47:47 <slush> thanks, I'll ask him
 388 2011-11-08 03:47:50 <justmoon> phantomcircuit, the debug.log should say why the transaction wasn't accepted into the memory pool - so I'm pretty sure if you ask bluematt he'll also tell you to look in the log
 389 2011-11-08 03:48:24 <phantomcircuit> justmoon, i say that because bluematt did a lot of screwing around with the wallet stuff
 390 2011-11-08 03:48:29 <slush> what a luck - logrotate discarded debug.log four minutes ago. damn
 391 2011-11-08 03:48:32 <phantomcircuit> so he'll probably have a better idea than anybody else
 392 2011-11-08 03:48:50 <slush> ok, I'll wait for next crash and take debug.log part
 393 2011-11-08 03:49:20 <justmoon> phantomcircuit, ok granted, but the error is generic for any time AcceptToMemoryPool() fails
 394 2011-11-08 03:49:36 <justmoon> and that contains dozens of checks that can fail
 395 2011-11-08 03:50:16 <slush> hm, maybe not sufficient fees? And it then get confirmed as I mine my own block?
 396 2011-11-08 03:50:30 <slush> ok, it's pure speculation, let wait for next occurence
 397 2011-11-08 03:50:50 <nanotube> slush: heh, 'log rotation', i don't think it means what you think it means :P seems more like log deletion to me :)
 398 2011-11-08 03:51:15 <slush> lol, yes, I'm not rotating logs, because it always killed IO
 399 2011-11-08 03:51:20 <slush> so I'm simply truncating them ;)
 400 2011-11-08 03:51:25 <justmoon> slush, it could be fees, it could also be too many outputs, or you triggered gavins DoS checks
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 402 2011-11-08 03:51:49 <slush> there's some ddos check in 0.3.24?
 403 2011-11-08 03:51:54 <justmoon> oh sorry, no
 404 2011-11-08 03:53:23 <justmoon> well, it does check for the number of OP_CHECKSIG etc., all of those older checks could be the culprit
 405 2011-11-08 03:53:30 <justmoon> just not the latest generation :)
 406 2011-11-08 03:55:33 <slush> lol
 407 2011-11-08 03:55:34 <slush> WalletUpdateSpent found spent coin
 408 2011-11-08 03:55:38 <slush> wtf?
 409 2011-11-08 03:55:40 <slush> -rescan ?
 410 2011-11-08 03:56:06 <justmoon> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L1028
 411 2011-11-08 03:56:14 <justmoon> he updates the wallet before he checks the transaction
 412 2011-11-08 03:56:27 <justmoon> so I guess the transaction is in the wallet, but not in the network/blockchain
 413 2011-11-08 03:56:35 <justmoon> so yeah a rescan should fix it
 414 2011-11-08 03:56:43 <justmoon> i.e. make the transaction disappear
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 416 2011-11-08 03:57:30 <slush> hm, but transactions are accepted to blockchain
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 419 2011-11-08 03:57:53 <justmoon> ok I give up, ask matt
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 421 2011-11-08 03:58:24 <slush> ok, thanks anyway.
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 464 2011-11-08 05:50:12 <Joric> that css framework http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/ looks really ugly in chrome, disable shadows for gods sake
 465 2011-11-08 05:51:14 <Joric> i don't know maybe it's only me here's a screenshot http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/8140/screenshot2011110811360.png
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 482 2011-11-08 06:18:16 <shadders> poolserverj workmaker edition released: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=51226.0
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 485 2011-11-08 06:22:54 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * a627436bdd35 r191 /poolserverj-main/etc/lib/lib_non-maven/shadtools-sql-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar: why oh why do new files never commit the first time!
 486 2011-11-08 06:22:55 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * e30134fd8d2e r192 /poolserverj-core/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/entity/FastEqualsSolution.java: security patch
 487 2011-11-08 06:22:55 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * a2cad9689727 r193 /poolserverj-core/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/entity/FastEqualsSolution.java: speel
 488 2011-11-08 06:22:55 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 7adc9d83751f r194 /poolserverj-core/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/entity/FastEqualsSolution.java: duplicate security fix on main branch
 489 2011-11-08 06:22:56 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 5bd70509b32d r195 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/WorkProxy.java: security fix, already fixed in mm branch
 490 2011-11-08 06:22:56 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 3f2e13da3f06 r196 /poolserverj-core/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/entity/FastEqualsSolution.java: duplicate security hotfix from main and wm branches
 491 2011-11-08 06:22:57 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * fea9b5a43819 r197 / (13 files in 9 dirs):
 492 2011-11-08 06:22:57 <CIA-34> poolserverj: add litecoin support
 493 2011-11-08 06:22:57 <CIA-34> poolserverj: extend fireBlockChange to run in lite mode when block hasn't changed but you want to trigger a cache flush and longpoll (e.g. if a high value transaction come in.)
 494 2011-11-08 06:22:58 <CIA-34> poolserverj: Integrate local block generation for aux chains allowing coinbasing in the aux blocks
 495 2011-11-08 06:23:01 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 5cd0494800b6 r198 / (14 files in 9 dirs):
 496 2011-11-08 06:23:01 <CIA-34> poolserverj: - rebuild default share logger to use column mappings so all columns can now be optional.
 497 2011-11-08 06:23:01 <CIA-34> poolserverj: - added components needed to trigger a longpoll when new transaction included in the block increase expected fees by more than a user defined threshold.
 498 2011-11-08 06:23:01 <CIA-34> poolserverj: - enable workmaker for non-merged mining config
 499 2011-11-08 06:23:02 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 9250897ea157 r199 /poolserverj-main/ (9 files in 5 dirs):
 500 2011-11-08 06:23:02 <CIA-34> poolserverj: update sample config
 501 2011-11-08 06:23:03 <CIA-34> poolserverj: added useragent as optional column in share logging
 502 2011-11-08 06:23:03 <CIA-34> poolserverj: added link to new eclipse guide in How To Build.txt
 503 2011-11-08 06:23:27 <CIA-34> poolserverj: update version string
 504 2011-11-08 06:23:27 <CIA-34> poolserverj: remove mystery ; from workmaker that stopped block updates
 505 2011-11-08 06:23:27 <CIA-34> poolserverj: standardize traceTarget formats
 506 2011-11-08 06:23:27 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 67b35e23c608 r201 /poolserverj-core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/core/PSJTransaction.java: get rid of deprecated file
 507 2011-11-08 06:23:28 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 7112354a9b58 r202 /poolserverj-main/etc/lib/ (7 files in 2 dirs): updated libs for 0.4.0rc1 release
 508 2011-11-08 06:23:28 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 50988e5015a7 r203 /poolserverj-main/etc/lib/lib_non-maven/ (4 files): and again
 509 2011-11-08 06:23:29 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * baa9bdfa9c9e r204 / (2 files in 2 dirs): Port security hotfix to real 0.3.0 branch - previously was applied to a downstream changeset after a merge.
 510 2011-11-08 06:23:29 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * 1c1ead9f2a03 r205 /.hgtags: Added tag 0.3.1.01 for changeset baa9bdfa9c9e
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 513 2011-11-08 06:24:27 <CIA-34> poolserverj: shadders * db4b2d93049e r206 /poolserverj-main/ (3 files in 3 dirs):
 514 2011-11-08 06:24:27 <CIA-34> poolserverj: - added default donation warning message on first startup which forces user to acknowledge before proceeding.
 515 2011-11-08 06:24:27 <CIA-34> poolserverj: - set default donation to 0.3%
 516 2011-11-08 06:24:27 <CIA-34> (8 lines omitted)
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 526 2011-11-08 06:40:59 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: http://jailbreakscene.com/main/2011/02/sony-sends-dmca-takedown-notices-to-gitorious/
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 528 2011-11-08 06:46:48 <copumpkin> lol
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 531 2011-11-08 06:49:07 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r7e91dd2 / (src/qt/bitcoin.qrc src/qt/locale/bitcoin_zh_TW.ts):
 532 2011-11-08 06:49:07 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Merge pull request #609 from iongchun/add-zhtw
 533 2011-11-08 06:49:07 <CIA-34> bitcoin: add zh_TW locale - http://git.io/Tlf4dg
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 541 2011-11-08 07:12:57 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #86: STILL FAILING in 21 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/86/
 542 2011-11-08 07:12:58 <BlueMattBot> angiongchun: add zh_TW locale
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 642 2011-11-08 12:16:22 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Andrew Vorobyov master * r61049cd / lib/schema/block.js : Cleanup after testing - http://git.io/jAaF3w
 643 2011-11-08 12:16:23 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r186c409 / lib/schema/block.js :
 644 2011-11-08 12:16:23 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Merge pull request #46 from santacruz123/master
 645 2011-11-08 12:16:23 <CIA-34> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Removed debug statement. - http://git.io/vET4xQ
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 674 2011-11-08 13:24:55 * luke-jr grumbles about gavin tagging outside master again
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 678 2011-11-08 13:29:45 <sipa> is that why git doesn't know about v0.5.0rc3 here?
 679 2011-11-08 13:30:12 <luke-jr> probably
 680 2011-11-08 13:30:34 <luke-jr> if you explicitly pull it, you'll get it
 681 2011-11-08 13:30:41 <luke-jr> someone needs to merge it to master -.-
 682 2011-11-08 13:33:56 <luke-jr> tcatm: poke
 683 2011-11-08 13:34:10 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 685 2011-11-08 13:34:37 <tcatm> luke-jr: ?
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 688 2011-11-08 13:35:05 <luke-jr> tcatm: market feeds have been down/broken for a day or two now
 689 2011-11-08 13:35:08 <luke-jr> what's up?
 690 2011-11-08 13:35:41 <tcatm> looks like they are working in #bitcoin-market
 691 2011-11-08 13:35:54 <luke-jr> who uses that? :P
 692 2011-11-08 13:36:02 <tcatm> can you provide more information?
 693 2011-11-08 13:36:24 <tcatm> approx 246 users
 694 2011-11-08 13:37:13 <luke-jr> EOFError: telnet connection closed
 695 2011-11-08 13:37:47 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r09d7be3 / doc/README : Merge commit 'v0.5.0rc3' - http://git.io/nu9r5g
 696 2011-11-08 13:38:29 <tcatm> how can I reproduce the problem?
 697 2011-11-08 13:42:48 <luke-jr> weird, restarting the bot entirely fixed ti
 698 2011-11-08 13:43:19 <cjdelisle> ahh, dead connection
 699 2011-11-08 13:43:38 <cjdelisle> I have experienced the same, socat connection is still connected but no data
 700 2011-11-08 13:43:51 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: no, because I reloaded the plugin a number of times
 701 2011-11-08 13:45:09 <tcatm> the server is currently serving about 6300 connections so it's likely a bug in your plugin
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 708 2011-11-08 14:00:12 <tcatm> gavinandresen: can I push updated translations from transifex directly to master or should I make pull requests?
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 710 2011-11-08 14:01:44 <gavinandresen> tcatm: Just push
 711 2011-11-08 14:03:26 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #87: STILL FAILING in 21 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/87/
 712 2011-11-08 14:03:26 <BlueMattBot> gavinandresen: Mention Qt4 runtime dependencies
 713 2011-11-08 14:04:08 <sipa> wow, adding three lines of documentation breaks the build? :)
 714 2011-11-08 14:04:13 bitcoinbulletin has joined
 715 2011-11-08 14:06:50 <CIA-34> bitcoin: Nils Schneider master * re1739cb / (9 files in 2 dirs): merged translations from transifex: da de es es_CL nb nl ru zh_TW - http://git.io/LPOMCQ
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 728 2011-11-08 14:32:57 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #88: STILL FAILING in 21 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/88/
 729 2011-11-08 14:32:58 <BlueMattBot> nils.schneider: merged translations from transifex: da de es es_CL nb nl ru zh_TW
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 748 2011-11-08 15:02:57 <tcatm> gavinandresen: where would be the best place to document the transifex -> git process?
 749 2011-11-08 15:04:56 topace has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 750 2011-11-08 15:05:23 <nanotube> where does all other dev-related documentation live? probably same place. :)
 751 2011-11-08 15:05:37 <nanotube> if there's no such place, then there should be.
 752 2011-11-08 15:06:27 topace has joined
 753 2011-11-08 15:06:49 <Diablo-D3> transiwhat?
 754 2011-11-08 15:07:02 <jgarzik> tcatm: doc/  ?
 755 2011-11-08 15:07:08 <tcatm> https://www.transifex.net/projects/p/bitcoin/resource/tx/
 756 2011-11-08 15:07:31 <Diablo-D3> looks like a scam
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 760 2011-11-08 15:13:26 <erus`> Diablo-D3: how?
 761 2011-11-08 15:14:14 <Diablo-D3> website is too fancy looking.
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 764 2011-11-08 15:19:03 <Ycros> lol
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 766 2011-11-08 15:20:54 <gavinandresen> tcatm: maybe doc/translation_process.txt in the source tree?
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 790 2011-11-08 16:04:24 <Diablo-D3> ;;ticker
 791 2011-11-08 16:04:25 <gribble> Best bid: 3.03, Best ask: 3.06, Bid-ask spread: 0.03, Last trade: 3.03, 24 hour volume: 65836, 24 hour low: 2.95, 24 hour high: 3.21
 792 2011-11-08 16:04:40 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 3.03 * 96.41400
 793 2011-11-08 16:04:41 <gribble> 292.13442
 794 2011-11-08 16:05:03 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 3.03 / 96.41400
 795 2011-11-08 16:05:04 <gribble> 0.0314269711868
 796 2011-11-08 16:05:12 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 96.41400 / 3.03
 797 2011-11-08 16:05:12 <gribble> 31.8198019802
 798 2011-11-08 16:06:58 <helo> could one use OP_EVAL to pay a pre-determined "commission" to a 3rd party from the total BTC sitting at the script's address?
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 801 2011-11-08 16:10:14 <helo> are all of the BTC associated with the script's address always sent to whatever the hash is given by whoever satisfies the script's requirements?
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 803 2011-11-08 16:10:47 * helo hopes for a non "yes/no" answer ;)
 804 2011-11-08 16:11:28 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: you here?
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 806 2011-11-08 16:12:40 <sipa> helo: bitcoin does not track btc associated with addresses
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 811 2011-11-08 16:13:21 <sipa> each transaction explicitly lists which earlier transaction outputs are consumed
 812 2011-11-08 16:13:21 <Eliel> helo: no, I don't think it does.
 813 2011-11-08 16:13:34 <sipa> and those ar consumed integrlly
 814 2011-11-08 16:13:42 <Eliel> helo: you can only do input things with the OP_EVAL script.
 815 2011-11-08 16:14:21 <sipa> it's irrelevant
 816 2011-11-08 16:14:43 <sipa> scripts have nothing to do with the flow of coins
 817 2011-11-08 16:14:59 <Eliel> helo: however, you can make it so that the input needs approval from the person to receive commission to be spent, that way you can make it impossible to spend the transaction unless they agree.
 818 2011-11-08 16:15:01 <sipa> they are only used for authentication
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 822 2011-11-08 16:31:00 <helo> ahh i see, thanks
 823 2011-11-08 16:31:47 <helo> whoever satisfies the script's conditions gets the bitcoin
 824 2011-11-08 16:33:00 <gavinandresen> helo: yes. But as Eliel says, one of the private key holders could refuse to sign transactions that didn't pay them a commission...
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 826 2011-11-08 16:36:31 <Eliel> however, that's a complete veto right on any transaction, propably more than called for in such a situation.
 827 2011-11-08 16:39:47 <gavinandresen> Eliel: if it is a third part dispute resolution service and their services were required then refusing to sign a transaction refunding to the buyer or seller unless they include a commission sounds perfectly reasonable
 828 2011-11-08 16:40:29 <Eliel> yes, in such a case, of course.
 829 2011-11-08 16:41:00 <Eliel> I got the idea that helo was wanting to somehow automate commission payment.
 830 2011-11-08 16:41:33 <Eliel> but that's not something that's really the job of the blockchain scripts
 831 2011-11-08 16:41:46 <helo> just trying to get a handle on the scope of OP_EVAL
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 836 2011-11-08 16:51:16 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: would you mind mentioning the bitcoin ppa on the next rc thread so that it also gets tested?
 837 2011-11-08 16:52:26 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: sure-- email me what you'd like to say about it.
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 839 2011-11-08 16:53:24 <BlueMatt> just say something to the effect of: "If you are on Ubuntu, please also test the new bitcoin ppa by running "sudo apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin; sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get install bitcoin-qt"
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 842 2011-11-08 17:04:18 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: does the bitcoin-qt ppa include bitcoind?  And where do they end up getting installed? (/usr/bin?)
 843 2011-11-08 17:05:03 <Eliel> gavinandresen: it does include bitcoind
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 846 2011-11-08 17:05:29 <BlueMatt> yes, you can install either bitcoin-qt or bitcoind
 847 2011-11-08 17:05:52 <BlueMatt> (or both)
 848 2011-11-08 17:06:00 <Eliel> they install in /usr/bin/
 849 2011-11-08 17:06:02 <BlueMatt> the actual binary gets installed in /usr/lib/bitcoin
 850 2011-11-08 17:06:11 <BlueMatt> a script which calls bitcoin goes in usr/bin
 851 2011-11-08 17:06:22 <BlueMatt> (because that is what was already being done in the debian package)
 852 2011-11-08 17:06:30 <BlueMatt> (not that that is really the "right" way...)
 853 2011-11-08 17:07:17 <gavinandresen> So if I installed both I'd get bitcoin-qt and bitcoind scripts in /usr/bin, that launch bitcoin-qt/bitcoind executables in /usr/lib/bitcoin.  Okey doke.
 854 2011-11-08 17:07:27 <BlueMatt> yep
 855 2011-11-08 17:07:49 <sipa> does the script automatically decides whether it needs bitcoin-qt or bitcoind?
 856 2011-11-08 17:07:52 <sipa> -s
 857 2011-11-08 17:07:58 <BlueMatt> no, there are two scripts
 858 2011-11-08 17:08:04 <BlueMatt> /usr/bin/bitcoind and /usr/bin/bitcoin-qt
 859 2011-11-08 17:08:12 <sipa> oh
 860 2011-11-08 17:08:18 <sipa> what's the point?
 861 2011-11-08 17:08:51 <BlueMatt> bitcoind sets a random rpcpassword (nfc why, but thats what debian packages already did, so I left it) and both set DB_LOG_AUTOREMOVE
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 863 2011-11-08 17:09:13 <BlueMatt> which I was planning on doing research on and bringing up as something we should do by default but I havnt had time...
 864 2011-11-08 17:10:00 <gavinandresen> ... as long as it still errors out if I accidently type bitcoind -datadir=fo  when I meant to type foo....
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 867 2011-11-08 17:10:36 <BlueMatt> if bitcoin would error, so would the script
 868 2011-11-08 17:10:41 <BlueMatt> (it passes all args to bitcoin)
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 900 2011-11-08 18:03:55 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: are you here?
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 910 2011-11-08 18:25:21 <graingert> ThomasV: try using !later
 911 2011-11-08 18:25:39 <ThomasV> how does it work?
 912 2011-11-08 18:25:54 <graingert> next time he says something that gribble can see it will pm him
 913 2011-11-08 18:26:04 <ThomasV> anyway, I have to go now
 914 2011-11-08 18:26:07 <ThomasV> bbl
 915 2011-11-08 18:26:12 <graingert> k
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 939 2011-11-08 19:16:05 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r9bc9593 / (3 files): Fix segmentation fault when editing address not in address book (issue #615) - http://git.io/fBVYIw
 940 2011-11-08 19:16:09 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r0fb0a38 / (3 files):
 941 2011-11-08 19:16:09 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Merge pull request #618 from laanwj/issue615
 942 2011-11-08 19:16:09 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Fix segmentation fault when editing address not in address book (issue #615) - http://git.io/9EhpUg
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 955 2011-11-08 19:38:08 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #89: STILL FAILING in 21 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/89/
 956 2011-11-08 19:38:09 <BlueMattBot> laanwj: Fix segmentation fault when editing address not in address book (issue #615)
 957 2011-11-08 19:39:18 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r8c44ae466af0 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/Gatekeeper/ (config.py plugin.py): Gatekeeper: make the msg on join for unauthed users configurable
 958 2011-11-08 19:41:32 <BlueMatt> oh dammit
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 978 2011-11-08 20:32:57 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #90: STILL FAILING in 34 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/90/
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 991 2011-11-08 20:54:47 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #91: STILL FAILING in 5 min 31 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/91/
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1001 2011-11-08 21:18:31 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #92: STILL FAILING in 5 min 59 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/92/
1002 2011-11-08 21:19:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: fix it!
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1013 2011-11-08 21:27:41 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: meh, im distracted, so its taking a while...
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1030 2011-11-08 21:54:27 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #93: STILL FAILING in 5 min 50 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/93/
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1032 2011-11-08 22:16:09 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #94: STILL FAILING in 5 min 56 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/94/
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1034 2011-11-08 22:19:50 <helo> it would be nice if the standard client could be configured to show when a transaction has been seen that sends coin to one of your addresses, before it is included in a block
1035 2011-11-08 22:20:32 <nanotube> helo: it already does that. that's what 0conf transactions are
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1040 2011-11-08 22:22:34 <helo> oh... don't see this transaction from the faucet
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1042 2011-11-08 22:22:59 <nanotube> helo: well they only show up if you have all the blocks
1043 2011-11-08 22:23:32 <helo> i'm at 152445
1044 2011-11-08 22:24:06 <helo> i did have to restart my client... maybe i didn't receive the transaction as it went out
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1046 2011-11-08 22:24:51 <helo> with fluxbox there seems to be a problem with the window disappearing when it is set to "minimize to tray" and "minimize on close"
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1051 2011-11-08 22:26:09 <helo> the window will be open, and i'll switch to a different workspace, and then when i return to the workspace the client's window is gone
1052 2011-11-08 22:26:27 <helo> i can still click the tray icon to exit, but it won't show the main window regardless of what i do
1053 2011-11-08 22:27:14 <helo> ahh there we go, just saw the 0conf faucet transaction
1054 2011-11-08 22:28:01 <nanotube> \o/
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1058 2011-11-08 22:30:27 <graingert> nanotube: why do they only show up if you have "all the blocks"
1059 2011-11-08 22:30:42 <graingert> eg how does the client know it has all the blocks
1060 2011-11-08 22:31:56 <nanotube> graingert: well, as to why - because it could be a bogus transaction (using spent inputs), and if you don't have the blocks you can't know if it is
1061 2011-11-08 22:32:06 <nanotube> as to how it knows - it asks all the peers how many blocks they have, etc.
1062 2011-11-08 22:32:33 <graingert> ah I see
1063 2011-11-08 22:32:47 <helo> it's already listed as unconfirmed, so it wouldn't really be a problem to show up regardless
1064 2011-11-08 22:33:09 <graingert> in that case it goes from
1065 2011-11-08 22:33:36 <graingert> unknown status -> valid -> unconfirmed 1-6 -> confirmed
1066 2011-11-08 22:33:45 <graingert> *0-6
1067 2011-11-08 22:33:51 <graingert> *0-5 :p
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1069 2011-11-08 22:36:35 <helo> ahh, with fluxbox minimize to tray isn't needed
1070 2011-11-08 22:37:58 <graingert> same with gnome shell
1071 2011-11-08 22:38:09 <graingert> gnome shell has no minimize
1072 2011-11-08 22:39:05 <helo> with minize to tray enabled, does the window disappear if you switch workspaces?
1073 2011-11-08 22:39:49 <graingert> just checking
1074 2011-11-08 22:39:51 <graingert> LBI
1075 2011-11-08 22:41:34 <graingert> helo: it does indeed
1076 2011-11-08 22:41:35 <helo> it behaves as if the window is open on another workspace
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1082 2011-11-08 22:49:38 <graingert> helo: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/620
1083 2011-11-08 22:50:10 <helo> hooray!
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1085 2011-11-08 22:51:44 <graingert> why is the tab based interface implimented with a toolbar :(
1086 2011-11-08 22:53:53 <graingert> the status bar wastes a lot of empty space
1087 2011-11-08 22:54:32 <helo> so you can detach it! heh
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1089 2011-11-08 22:55:32 <graingert> but it's tabs
1090 2011-11-08 22:55:38 <graingert> so it should not be detachable
1091 2011-11-08 22:56:00 <helo> detaching toolbars is a good example of something that is naturally obvious and yet completely useless
1092 2011-11-08 22:56:58 <graingert> export button should be beneath the tabs
1093 2011-11-08 22:57:20 <graingert> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/621
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1100 2011-11-08 23:07:01 <helo> i would argue that "export" should be under "File"
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1102 2011-11-08 23:07:24 <helo> currently "File" only has "Exit", which is already redundant with the window manager's X
1103 2011-11-08 23:07:36 <helo> export is a file operation, after all
1104 2011-11-08 23:08:36 <helo> ohh... export is only for the particular tab you're on
1105 2011-11-08 23:08:51 <CIA-89> poolserverj: shadders * 349c9bc35494 r212 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/conf/Conf.java: make tmp dir before attempting to create donation.ack
1106 2011-11-08 23:08:52 <helo> never mind that... yeah it needs to be on the body of the tabs that it is used for
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1109 2011-11-08 23:12:42 <graingert> helo: export should be under file yes
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1111 2011-11-08 23:13:54 <graingert> it should be file -> export -> [my addresses, address book, transaction log]
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1113 2011-11-08 23:14:16 <helo> yeah... that makes more sense
1114 2011-11-08 23:14:49 <graingert> another UI issue: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/622
1115 2011-11-08 23:15:53 <graingert> the overview should show the next unused unlabled address
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1119 2011-11-08 23:19:49 <graingert> *rages how the gui and the deamon need to be separated*
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1129 2011-11-08 23:33:15 <luke-jr> the GUI really needs a way to search the address book -.-
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1132 2011-11-08 23:34:44 <graingert> oh crap
1133 2011-11-08 23:34:47 <graingert> does it not do that
1134 2011-11-08 23:34:57 <graingert> lol
1135 2011-11-08 23:35:00 <graingert> fail
1136 2011-11-08 23:35:08 <graingert> luke-jr: make an issue on le github
1137 2011-11-08 23:35:25 <luke-jr> graingert: too lazy
1138 2011-11-08 23:35:39 <luke-jr> GitHub doesn't credit you for that like Launchpad does :P
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1140 2011-11-08 23:36:26 <nanotube> yea i've mentioned the lack of search/filter ability in the past...
1141 2011-11-08 23:37:02 <graingert> luke-jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/623
1142 2011-11-08 23:37:35 <CFSworks> Very descriptive bug report. The -.- really emphasizes its urgency. ;)
1143 2011-11-08 23:38:07 <graingert> I'm not quite sure what extra details would be usefull
1144 2011-11-08 23:38:20 <luke-jr> it should have a search at the top of the list
1145 2011-11-08 23:38:26 <luke-jr> just start typing and it filters the contents
1146 2011-11-08 23:38:27 <luke-jr> etc
1147 2011-11-08 23:38:37 <CFSworks> Filters by what, label?
1148 2011-11-08 23:38:44 <CFSworks> <-- (Has not had the privilege of trying the Qt GUI yet.)
1149 2011-11-08 23:40:10 <graingert> CFSworks: yep
1150 2011-11-08 23:40:25 <graingert> CFSworks: I doubt anyone wants to filter by Address
1151 2011-11-08 23:40:40 <graingert> but it could filter that also
1152 2011-11-08 23:40:53 <graingert> but it will wipe them all out after a few characters
1153 2011-11-08 23:40:53 <CFSworks> Probably an "Or" filter, because some people have their vanity addresses...
1154 2011-11-08 23:41:12 Kolky has quit (Quit: Bye bye!)
1155 2011-11-08 23:41:13 <graingert> CFSworks: add your comments to the bug
1156 2011-11-08 23:41:23 <luke-jr> CFSworks: whatever matches what you type
1157 2011-11-08 23:42:45 <graingert> the "Recieve Coins" tab is odd
1158 2011-11-08 23:43:08 <luke-jr> ?
1159 2011-11-08 23:43:21 <graingert> it's an odd name
1160 2011-11-08 23:43:29 <graingert> it makes sense to start with
1161 2011-11-08 23:43:44 <graingert> but I think it should be "My Addresses"
1162 2011-11-08 23:44:39 TheZimm has joined
1163 2011-11-08 23:45:11 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1164 2011-11-08 23:46:08 sacarlson has joined
1165 2011-11-08 23:46:42 <graingert> Send Coins and Address Book should be merged :p
1166 2011-11-08 23:46:56 <graingert> typing in the Label field should filter the Address Book
1167 2011-11-08 23:47:57 <CFSworks> graingert: I really should not be posting issues on GitHub, for the public good. :)
1168 2011-11-08 23:48:06 <CFSworks> "New issue: Default Bitcoin address should be changed to 1Bbw6SBzmwWBaPRBxJUwp3WRgvDKCkqNX7"
1169 2011-11-08 23:48:08 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1170 2011-11-08 23:48:47 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1171 2011-11-08 23:48:53 <graingert> Default bitcoin address should be the most sent to bitcoin address in the list
1172 2011-11-08 23:48:56 <graingert> :p
1173 2011-11-08 23:51:23 <graingert> Clear all button is very pointless