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 37 2011-11-19 01:11:23 <dooglus> I've been testing the latest release candidate, but it crashes almost every time I start it
 38 2011-11-19 01:11:43 <dooglus> rc1 through rc3 were OK, and rc4 through 6 crash
 39 2011-11-19 01:12:22 <dooglus> it's when it tries to create wallet.dat.rewrite that it throws an exception: "Db::open: Invalid argument"
 40 2011-11-19 01:12:42 <dooglus> I'm linking with db 5.2.36-2 - is that likely to be the problem?
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 46 2011-11-19 01:21:32 <gavinandresen> dooglus: could be... what operating system?
 47 2011-11-19 01:21:52 <dooglus> I made a bug report with the details: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/644
 48 2011-11-19 01:21:57 <dooglus> but it's archlinux
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 51 2011-11-19 01:26:30 <gavinandresen> dooglus: dunno what the issue is...
 52 2011-11-19 01:27:26 <dooglus> gavinandresen: is there some test I can run to help locate it?  maybe turn on debugging in 'db'?
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 54 2011-11-19 01:27:34 * [Tycho] is trying that new GreenAddress thing
 55 2011-11-19 01:28:00 <gavinandresen> bdb isn't hard to compile, you could compile and link against a -g version of it and see where/why it is crashing
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 57 2011-11-19 01:28:40 <dooglus> I'm building 4.8.30 at the moment
 58 2011-11-19 01:28:42 <Folklore> does bitcoin use epoll
 59 2011-11-19 01:28:46 <dooglus> will see if that fixes the problem
 60 2011-11-19 01:29:14 <gavinandresen> Folklore: nope
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 62 2011-11-19 01:29:31 <gavinandresen> Folklore: does epoll work on Windows?
 63 2011-11-19 01:30:08 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, uh no
 64 2011-11-19 01:30:18 <Folklore> gavinandresen no but why does that matter?
 65 2011-11-19 01:30:24 <gavinandresen> .... well, then, that'd be a good reason bitcoin doesn't use it...
 66 2011-11-19 01:30:32 <Folklore> windows has IOCP
 67 2011-11-19 01:30:35 <gavinandresen> bitcoin is windows/linux/mac
 68 2011-11-19 01:30:45 <phantomcircuit> you use libevent (or similar)
 69 2011-11-19 01:30:45 <Folklore> no that's not a good reason
 70 2011-11-19 01:30:54 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: UGH NO
 71 2011-11-19 01:30:56 <Folklore> ever heard of OS macros?
 72 2011-11-19 01:30:57 <Folklore> #IF MACOS
 73 2011-11-19 01:31:00 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, or similar
 74 2011-11-19 01:31:11 <Folklore> so what's it use select?
 75 2011-11-19 01:31:17 <gavinandresen> yes, select.
 76 2011-11-19 01:31:24 <phantomcircuit> it kind of uses select
 77 2011-11-19 01:31:34 <gavinandresen> If you want to rewrite it, seems like boost::asio would be the way to go.
 78 2011-11-19 01:31:36 <Folklore> ugh, I thought the server side handled a lot of clients, no?
 79 2011-11-19 01:31:37 <phantomcircuit> i kind of forget
 80 2011-11-19 01:31:41 <phantomcircuit> but it's something like
 81 2011-11-19 01:31:56 <phantomcircuit> 1 thread does network io, 1 thread does logic, or something like that
 82 2011-11-19 01:32:40 <Folklore> alrighty, guess that makes sense, since select is cross platform, i'm not sure how much the connection weight is
 83 2011-11-19 01:33:03 <gavinandresen> not an issue at this point.
 84 2011-11-19 01:33:06 <Folklore> for high end server should consider epoll for linux, and IOCP for win
 85 2011-11-19 01:33:12 <Folklore> maybe in the future
 86 2011-11-19 01:33:20 <Folklore> idk what unix uses
 87 2011-11-19 01:33:20 <phantomcircuit> uh
 88 2011-11-19 01:33:29 <phantomcircuit> the main problem is that bitcoin uses an internal buffer
 89 2011-11-19 01:33:38 <phantomcircuit> instead of trusting the os network buffer
 90 2011-11-19 01:34:00 <Folklore> network level proven to be faster, that's the whole point
 91 2011-11-19 01:34:07 <Folklore> kernel rather
 92 2011-11-19 01:34:16 <Folklore> kernel level, ugh I need coffee
 93 2011-11-19 01:35:28 <luke-jr> Folklore: I think the general consensus is "yeah. got a branch to merge?"
 94 2011-11-19 01:35:45 <Folklore> lol fair enough
 95 2011-11-19 01:36:00 <Folklore> heres a good epoll example though, IOCP alil bit more tricky
 96 2011-11-19 01:36:05 <phantomcircuit> part of the problem is that the individual bitcoin messages can be huge
 97 2011-11-19 01:36:18 <luke-jr> Folklore: no no, it's not that anyone doesn't know how, or needs examples
 98 2011-11-19 01:36:20 <Folklore> https://banu.com/blog/2/how-to-use-epoll-a-complete-example-in-c/
 99 2011-11-19 01:36:21 <gavinandresen> "Patches welcome"    Just remember we're WAY WAY WAY more uptight about security than the typical open source project.  And even then we screw up.
100 2011-11-19 01:36:23 <luke-jr> Folklore: someone just has to actually *do it*
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102 2011-11-19 01:36:38 <Folklore> luke-jr I get that, but examples don't hurt
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104 2011-11-19 01:36:46 <luke-jr> Folklore: they don't help either :p
105 2011-11-19 01:37:14 <Folklore> can give ideas of a slightly different way to do somethin :p
106 2011-11-19 01:37:56 <luke-jr> redoing the network stack in the codebase is one of those "eeek, easier to rewrite it all" things
107 2011-11-19 01:37:58 <Folklore> phantom what does it matter how large the bitcoin is? i'm misunderstanding you
108 2011-11-19 01:39:03 <phantomcircuit> a single getdata can result in 49968 individual blocks being requested
109 2011-11-19 01:39:23 <Folklore> things are broken up in smaller packets anyway, trying to send something at a megabyte a time, for all machines isn't ideal, much better to lower it to a reasonable number, 512/1024 bytes
110 2011-11-19 01:40:19 <phantomcircuit> the problem there being that the single getdata packet is processed all in 1 go
111 2011-11-19 01:40:47 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, btw that reminds me you can cause memory to spike if you send getdata packets simultaneously and rapidly reconnect
112 2011-11-19 01:40:59 <Folklore> by design or are you saying it needs to be process as a whole? cause you can just append the data as it comes in, or am I still misunderstanding?
113 2011-11-19 01:41:23 <phantomcircuit> Folklore, because of the way the current client is engineered
114 2011-11-19 01:41:51 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: thanks
115 2011-11-19 01:41:55 <Folklore> sounds really broken if it's trying to read packets at megabytes at a time
116 2011-11-19 01:42:13 <Folklore> if you test lower request sizes you'll get better throughoput on most machines
117 2011-11-19 01:43:01 <gavinandresen> optimizing for throughput is so far down on the priority list I can't even see it....
118 2011-11-19 01:43:03 <phantomcircuit> Folklore, yeah there is an internal send buffer which kills the client at 1MB (10MB??) i forget exactly
119 2011-11-19 01:43:43 <phantomcircuit> i mean kills the connection
120 2011-11-19 01:44:13 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
121 2011-11-19 01:44:13 <gribble> 153893
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123 2011-11-19 01:45:04 <Folklore> sounds kinda funny if you're being serious
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125 2011-11-19 01:45:46 <gavinandresen> what sounds funny?  If a peer trys to flood you with data you drop its connection?
126 2011-11-19 01:46:34 <phantomcircuit> hmm the other way
127 2011-11-19 01:46:57 <dooglus> gavinandresen: rebuilding with bdb 4.8.30 didn't help
128 2011-11-19 01:47:04 <Folklore> yeah he's saying is a client is trying to recieve data too fast he just kills that connections, and lol,that is funny
129 2011-11-19 01:47:04 <gavinandresen> Ok, if a peer requests a bunch of data and then refuses to process it in a timely fashion you drop the connection?
130 2011-11-19 01:48:01 <gavinandresen> patches welcome... rewriting that code to be smarter about data flow control would be great.
131 2011-11-19 01:48:40 <phantomcircuit> to do that you basically have to rewrite the logic to queue requests for information instead of the actual information
132 2011-11-19 01:48:50 <gavinandresen> dooglus:  weird, haven't seen anybody else having that particular problem.
133 2011-11-19 01:48:54 <Folklore> if it's contigent on the other side processing it fast enough between requests thats one thing, freenode does that with channel lists, and is a good method, but that's not what he said, at least what I read
134 2011-11-19 01:48:56 <phantomcircuit> then select for write on sockets with queue'd requests
135 2011-11-19 01:49:10 <phantomcircuit> but then you could stall the networking thread waiting for db stuff
136 2011-11-19 01:49:25 <phantomcircuit> so
137 2011-11-19 01:49:29 <phantomcircuit> yeah screw that
138 2011-11-19 01:49:49 <phantomcircuit> which is probably the reason it's built the way it is anyways
139 2011-11-19 01:49:49 <Folklore> or you just skip that users socket and poll the rest? :p
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141 2011-11-19 01:50:14 <phantomcircuit> Folklore, uh no
142 2011-11-19 01:50:28 <Folklore> if they haven't done what they needed within a timeframe then you can close, but to block on a individual users socket is silly
143 2011-11-19 01:50:30 <phantomcircuit>  <- request
144 2011-11-19 01:50:35 <Folklore> for large scale anyway
145 2011-11-19 01:50:47 <phantomcircuit> queue response identifiers ->
146 2011-11-19 01:51:00 <phantomcircuit> wait for socket write
147 2011-11-19 01:51:11 <phantomcircuit> pull actual data
148 2011-11-19 01:51:14 <phantomcircuit> send data
149 2011-11-19 01:51:20 <phantomcircuit> only problem
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151 2011-11-19 01:51:36 <phantomcircuit> pulling the actual data can break
152 2011-11-19 01:51:37 <phantomcircuit> er
153 2011-11-19 01:51:39 <phantomcircuit> block
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155 2011-11-19 01:52:00 <Folklore> what are you pulling it from
156 2011-11-19 01:52:08 <Folklore> remote or a local file or something
157 2011-11-19 01:52:10 <phantomcircuit> possibly disk
158 2011-11-19 01:52:18 <phantomcircuit> possibly nfs
159 2011-11-19 01:52:21 <phantomcircuit> you dont know
160 2011-11-19 01:52:27 <phantomcircuit> it could block
161 2011-11-19 01:53:21 <Folklore> if the bitcoin database doesn't suck, it should be pretty fast? IDK how large it is but could keep in memory too, for even quicker access
162 2011-11-19 01:54:17 <Folklore> from the sounds of it though, sounds like it works fine, the main thread polling sockets, and the other actually doing the work, only big improvement you should add is a threadpool
163 2011-11-19 01:54:26 <Folklore> for the workload, and have them go at it
164 2011-11-19 01:54:33 <gavinandresen> what workload?
165 2011-11-19 01:54:39 <Folklore> recv/sending
166 2011-11-19 01:54:43 <Folklore> and processing data
167 2011-11-19 01:55:01 <gavinandresen> Have you looked at bitcoin network bandwidth?  We're nowhere near close to having that be the issue.
168 2011-11-19 01:55:10 <Folklore> for instance recv and the socket can be added to a que, and a thread in the pool could andle it
169 2011-11-19 01:55:12 <gavinandresen> ... and before that is the issue, CPU usage will be the issue.
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171 2011-11-19 01:55:26 <gavinandresen> (validating transactions requires ECDSA signature operations, which are slow)
172 2011-11-19 01:56:47 <Folklore> anyway it could catch questions? cache something
173 2011-11-19 01:57:04 <Folklore> it's the same block data being shared to everyone, and theres no encryption used right?
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175 2011-11-19 01:58:26 <Folklore> cach'n in mem is an awesome thing, would probably speed things up a lot too, I remember when I had to download all the blocks or whatever, took forever
176 2011-11-19 01:58:59 <gavinandresen> sigh....
177 2011-11-19 01:59:08 <Folklore> could also implement a simple speed test feature, and perhaps have the bitcoin client utilize that as its max, obviously giving the user the ability to rate limit
178 2011-11-19 01:59:27 <gavinandresen> I can assure you epoll or caching on the sending side won't make downloading the block chain faster.
179 2011-11-19 01:59:59 <gavinandresen> (well, not noticeably faster)
180 2011-11-19 02:00:24 <gavinandresen> Speeding up initial block-chain download is near the top of my TODO list
181 2011-11-19 02:00:57 <Folklore> it makes http servers run noticeably fasters and they handle a great deal of requests, your complaint seems to be some form of verification, hashing or something that takes a lot of cpu cycles, why would not keeping the fruit of that labor in a cache not speed up things?
182 2011-11-19 02:01:51 <gavinandresen> No two hashes in the block chain are the same, so there is nothing to cache.  I am actually sitting on a patch to speed up ECDSA verification, but need to write more unit tests to make sure it doesn't break something
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184 2011-11-19 02:02:08 <gavinandresen> I'll catch y'all later.
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186 2011-11-19 02:02:32 <Folklore> awesome :D faster bitcoin good for everyone
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194 2011-11-19 02:09:00 <coventry> I'm trying to understand the bitcoin transaction protocol.  The TxIn table in the Protocol Specification page mentions a "sequence" field, described as "Transaction version as defined by the sender. Intended for "replacement" of transactions when information is updated before inclusion into a block."  Can you use this to invalidate a transaction before it's included in a block?  I assume not, because I have heard that a
195 2011-11-19 02:09:00 <coventry> zero-confirmation transaction is not too risky, for small transaction sizes.
196 2011-11-19 02:12:10 <coventry> Are such questions unwelcome here?  (Is this only for discussion of development of the official bitcoin client?)
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205 2011-11-19 02:20:29 <coventry> Oh, I bet most of the time it's set to MAX_UINT, so you can't post a later version...
206 2011-11-19 02:20:49 <devrandom> coventry: tx replacement is currently disabled, AFAIK
207 2011-11-19 02:22:40 <coventry> Thanks.
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255 2011-11-19 04:47:29 <Vontux> hello, I was wondering if anyone could explain why bitcoin.conf isn't present on my system after installing the bitcoin client
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363 2011-11-19 11:49:35 <[Tycho]> Hello.
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367 2011-11-19 12:04:31 <Eliel> Hello
368 2011-11-19 12:05:30 <[Tycho]> Hello, Eliel. Who are you ?
369 2011-11-19 12:08:19 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
370 2011-11-19 12:08:34 <Eliel> Not famous for anything. at least, not yet :)
371 2011-11-19 12:09:50 <[Tycho]> Oh, ok.
372 2011-11-19 12:16:48 <SomeoneWeird> lol..
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385 2011-11-19 12:57:55 <[Tycho]> Did someone tried to use "sendmany" ?
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427 2011-11-19 14:17:48 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,diff
428 2011-11-19 14:17:50 <gribble> 1192497.7500895
429 2011-11-19 14:17:51 <Diablo-D3> ;;ticker
430 2011-11-19 14:17:52 <gribble> Best bid: 2.2007, Best ask: 2.2097, Bid-ask spread: 0.009, Last trade: 2.19437, 24 hour volume: 140844, 24 hour low: 1.99998, 24 hour high: 2.30498
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463 2011-11-19 15:21:51 <[Tycho]> Why so quiet ?
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476 2011-11-19 15:51:10 <Litt> Everyone is busy enjoying the new p2p forum
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493 2011-11-19 16:35:12 <roconnor> devrandom: While tx replacement is disabled in the standard client, it is still part of the protocol; ie other clients could support tx replacement.
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525 2011-11-19 17:58:48 <gmaxwell> Sort of evidence that people are unable to reason about security bugs… the litecoin fork removed encrypted wallet support as a result of the current issue.
526 2011-11-19 18:02:27 <roconnor> gmaxwell: arugably broken encrypted wallet is worse than no encrypted wallet
527 2011-11-19 18:03:03 <gmaxwell> roconnor: Not if you warn the user.
528 2011-11-19 18:03:35 <roconnor> gmaxwell: I still think it is a little worse
529 2011-11-19 18:04:12 <gmaxwell> roconnor: You'd have to weigh it against the fact that all new keys are totally secure.
530 2011-11-19 18:04:43 <roconnor> true
531 2011-11-19 18:05:27 <roconnor> I wish we had (your?) scheme for generating keys from one key
532 2011-11-19 18:06:06 <gmaxwell> I don't know that it would really help that much.. and plus, it would make it harder to recover from the kind of partial leaks this created.
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534 2011-11-19 18:07:06 <[Tycho]> Why transactions with size less than 100 bytes are not accepted ?
535 2011-11-19 18:08:54 <gmaxwell> It's actually possible to write a useful transaction that small?
536 2011-11-19 18:09:26 <[Tycho]> The question is: it's actually possible to write a malicious transaction that small ?
537 2011-11-19 18:10:07 <roconnor> it does seem silly
538 2011-11-19 18:10:18 <roconnor> It is pretty easy to pad transactions
539 2011-11-19 18:10:22 <gmaxwell> well, at least its a computationally cheap check.
540 2011-11-19 18:10:34 <roconnor> right
541 2011-11-19 18:10:43 <[Tycho]> if (GetSigOpCount() > nSize / 34 || nSize < 100)
542 2011-11-19 18:11:00 <roconnor> [Tycho]: I think it is used as a quick way to drop non-standard transactions that the standard client will drop anyways
543 2011-11-19 18:11:33 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: There are a lot of "redundant" tests on transactions because DOS resistance implies dropping things that are bad as quickly and easily as possible, — also, belt+suspenders is good security.
544 2011-11-19 18:11:39 <[Tycho]> Ok, I'm just being careful about breaking something :)
545 2011-11-19 18:12:02 <roconnor> [Tycho]: this check is specific to the standard client; It is not part of the protocol AFAIU
546 2011-11-19 18:14:46 <iddo> roconnor: but the protocol was derived from the standard client?
547 2011-11-19 18:15:05 <roconnor> iddo: only a fragment of the standard client
548 2011-11-19 18:15:41 <iddo> what's considered the official protocol? the parts written in the wiki?
549 2011-11-19 18:15:42 <gmaxwell> iddo: The distinction here is that checks which will cause the software to reject a longer chain that fails them are part of the dirtributed algorithim.
550 2011-11-19 18:15:47 <[Tycho]> Also transactions without outputs are effectively prohibited by network :(
551 2011-11-19 18:15:52 <roconnor> iddo: what transactions the standard client chooses to rebroadcast has nothing to do with what transactions are accepted in the blockchain
552 2011-11-19 18:16:29 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: .. What are you upto?
553 2011-11-19 18:16:33 <roconnor> iddo: The code in the standard client dealing with the blockchain (directly and indirectly) is the official protocol.
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555 2011-11-19 18:16:52 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: this week i'm playing with non-standart TXes
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557 2011-11-19 18:17:10 <iddo> roconnor: ok thanks
558 2011-11-19 18:17:22 <roconnor> iddo: actually the word protocol I am using is a bit ambigous
559 2011-11-19 18:17:41 <roconnor> 'cause there is also the bitcoin P2P network protocol in addition to the bitcoin blockchain protocol
560 2011-11-19 18:17:57 <gmaxwell> roconnor: I like to call the blockchain rules "the distributed algorithim"
561 2011-11-19 18:17:59 <[Tycho]> It's like blockchain rules.
562 2011-11-19 18:18:22 <roconnor> gmaxwell: Hmm.
563 2011-11-19 18:18:45 <gmaxwell> Because if you change yours _at all_ you'll become a different currency eventually.
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565 2011-11-19 18:19:05 <roconnor> yep
566 2011-11-19 18:19:17 <roconnor> I don't like the word "algorithm" in your name
567 2011-11-19 18:20:07 <roconnor> I do like "blockchian rules"
568 2011-11-19 18:20:15 <gmaxwell> roconnor: its a set of well defined steps for reaching a conclusion. (and perhaps its not narrow enough?)
569 2011-11-19 18:20:16 <roconnor> naming things is so hard
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571 2011-11-19 18:20:26 <roconnor> gmaxwell: what is the conclusion?
572 2011-11-19 18:20:38 <gmaxwell> roconnor: the identity of the unique longest chain.
573 2011-11-19 18:20:57 <roconnor> hmm
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593 2011-11-19 19:10:19 <[Tycho]> Why OP_CAT is disabled ? It's so useful.
594 2011-11-19 19:11:08 <lupine_85> kunwon1, it works for other channels too
595 2011-11-19 19:18:08 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: presumably because it looks a bit scarry in terms of overflow risk. All the disabled opcodes make me sad, but people have still not written tests and independant implementations of all of the,
596 2011-11-19 19:18:50 <sipa> roconnor even discovered an error on the op list on the wiki
597 2011-11-19 19:19:07 <sipa> so you can see how "well tested" the documentation is
598 2011-11-19 19:19:27 <gmaxwell> oh the NEQ ? yea...
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628 2011-11-19 20:30:42 <roconnor> [Tycho]: OP_CAT being disabled *is* part of the bitcoin rules :)
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630 2011-11-19 20:31:02 <roconnor> well probably
631 2011-11-19 20:31:03 <[Tycho]> Why it's disabled ?
632 2011-11-19 20:31:19 <roconnor> I'm not entirely sure
633 2011-11-19 20:31:57 <roconnor> Does doing a sequence of OP_DUP, OP_CAT's cause expontial growth in memory use?
634 2011-11-19 20:32:27 <makomk> Yeah, should do.
635 2011-11-19 20:33:26 <makomk> You'd need to document and enforce some kind of memory limit and it'd have to be the same on all implementations...
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637 2011-11-19 20:35:34 <roconnor> I'd be interested in a theorem that says that the space and/or time use of the current set of operation is polynomial in the size of the script
638 2011-11-19 20:36:00 <roconnor> and wield that against this scary OP_EVAL proposal
639 2011-11-19 20:36:25 <sipa> that depends entirely on which operations are allowed
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641 2011-11-19 20:38:01 <[Tycho]> Why exponential ?
642 2011-11-19 20:38:22 <sipa> and as the size of const operations is limited, the number of stack elements is limited, no looping constructs exist, and no operations exist that increase the size of an element more that with a constant term
643 2011-11-19 20:38:29 <sipa> i'd say it's all nicely O(1) :)
644 2011-11-19 20:40:24 <roconnor> sipa: you lost me
645 2011-11-19 20:41:48 <roconnor> sipa: who limits the number of stack items?
646 2011-11-19 20:42:04 <roconnor> sipa: OP_EVAL is effectively a looping construct
647 2011-11-19 20:42:56 <roconnor> sipa: OP_CAT could increase the size of an element by more than the constant term.
648 2011-11-19 20:45:34 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
649 2011-11-19 20:45:39 <roconnor> sipa: and if you are right it makes the memory use linear in the size of the script, not constant :)
650 2011-11-19 20:48:33 <roconnor> sipa: anyhow OP_DUP clearly doesn't cause a bounded amount of memory increase (well in Haskell I have to do something like OP_DUP, OP_1ADD to unshare the duplication).
651 2011-11-19 20:49:41 <sipa> roconnor: with the current limitations, you cannot push values larger than 520 bytes
652 2011-11-19 20:49:54 iocor has joined
653 2011-11-19 20:50:02 <roconnor> (and I realize now that OP_CAT actually only affect memory use by a bounded amount)
654 2011-11-19 20:50:03 <sipa> and the size of the script seems limited to 10k
655 2011-11-19 20:50:43 <sipa> i claim that this limits the amount of memory to 5.2M :)
656 2011-11-19 20:51:05 <roconnor> sipa: but OP_DUP duplicates whatever is one the stack, and using arithmetic you can increase the size of objects on the stack beyond 520 bytes.
657 2011-11-19 20:51:25 <sipa> i was all assuming the current limitations
658 2011-11-19 20:51:38 <roconnor> Can't OP_PUSHDATA push 2^32 bytes onto a the stack item?
659 2011-11-19 20:51:53 <sipa> the script language can, the limitations don't allow it
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661 2011-11-19 20:52:18 <roconnor> sipa: how does the limitations stop OP_PUSHDATA4?
662 2011-11-19 20:53:02 <sipa> as the script can't be larger itself (in bytes) than 10000, how can an OP_PUSHDATA4 with 4k size ever be parsed correctly?
663 2011-11-19 20:53:15 <roconnor> sipa: but you said the limit was 520 bytes
664 2011-11-19 20:53:41 <sipa> oh, right, there's an additional limitation on the size of data being pushed
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666 2011-11-19 20:54:29 <[Tycho]> Actually OP_CAT checks for op sizr
667 2011-11-19 20:54:32 <[Tycho]> *sizee
668 2011-11-19 20:54:47 <sipa> OP_CAT is just disabled
669 2011-11-19 20:54:51 <the__batman> anyone figure out how to make bitcoin marketable yet?
670 2011-11-19 20:54:58 <the__batman> and not just a sweet money laundering tool
671 2011-11-19 20:55:00 <the__batman> :)
672 2011-11-19 20:55:04 <sipa> the__batman: with patience
673 2011-11-19 20:55:12 <the__batman> I prefer aggressive science
674 2011-11-19 20:55:29 <luke-jr> the__batman: make it easy for merchants
675 2011-11-19 20:55:32 <roconnor> sipa: Oh I see the limit now
676 2011-11-19 20:55:37 <roconnor> heh
677 2011-11-19 20:55:51 <roconnor> I'm a bit abivalent about implementing these arbitrary limits
678 2011-11-19 20:55:52 <sipa> roconnor: and there are afaik no operations that increase the size of data itself
679 2011-11-19 20:55:53 <the__batman> luke-jr: suppose it were perfectly easy. then what? why would they?
680 2011-11-19 20:56:04 <roconnor> sipa: OP_1ADD
681 2011-11-19 20:56:14 <luke-jr> the__batman: cuz USD is untrustworthy
682 2011-11-19 20:56:33 <roconnor> OP_ADD even
683 2011-11-19 20:57:36 <sipa> roconnor: oh yes, but N OP_1ADD operations can at most increase the max size of an element with log2(N)
684 2011-11-19 20:57:37 <roconnor> funny how OP_2MUL is disabled when it can be implemented by OP_DUP OP_ADD
685 2011-11-19 20:57:51 <sipa> hmm, OP_ADD is enabled still?
686 2011-11-19 20:58:01 <sipa> i misremembered
687 2011-11-19 20:58:04 <roconnor> I believe so
688 2011-11-19 20:58:10 <sipa> you're right
689 2011-11-19 20:58:12 <roconnor> it might even be used
690 2011-11-19 20:58:23 <roconnor> sipa: I'm impressed that I was so close to being wrong
691 2011-11-19 20:59:04 <roconnor> OP_ADD and OP_SUB should be disabled
692 2011-11-19 20:59:10 <sipa> still, N OP_ADD operations can still at most increase the max size of an element with log2(N)
693 2011-11-19 20:59:17 <sipa> eh
694 2011-11-19 20:59:18 <sipa> N
695 2011-11-19 20:59:22 * sipa needs sleep
696 2011-11-19 20:59:24 <roconnor> sipa: no
697 2011-11-19 20:59:46 <sipa> with N bits, not with log2(N) bits
698 2011-11-19 20:59:54 <roconnor> 8n*(OP_DUP OP_ADD) increases the size of an element by n bytes
699 2011-11-19 21:00:11 <sipa> ye
700 2011-11-19 21:00:11 <sipa> s
701 2011-11-19 21:00:26 <roconnor> I guess that is still linear in the script size
702 2011-11-19 21:00:36 <roconnor> so the memory use appears to be linear in the script size
703 2011-11-19 21:00:58 <sipa> and the number of stack elements is limited to 1000
704 2011-11-19 21:01:53 <sipa> a 10000k script can at most do 625 times 8n(OP_DUP OP_ADD), so add 625 bytes to the size of the largest element
705 2011-11-19 21:01:59 <sipa> eh, a 10k script
706 2011-11-19 21:03:17 * roconnor prepares a bitcoin bounty to produce the largest memory use by an accepted bitcoin script on testnet.
707 2011-11-19 21:04:45 Sedra has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
708 2011-11-19 21:04:47 <sipa> push 520 bytes, 529x (OP_DUP OP_ADD), 1000x OP_DUP
709 2011-11-19 21:04:55 Sedra has joined
710 2011-11-19 21:05:04 <sipa> -> 1000 elements of 1049 bytes on stack
711 2011-11-19 21:05:35 <sipa> 529*8 times, i mean
712 2011-11-19 21:05:49 <sipa> beat me
713 2011-11-19 21:06:10 <roconnor> sipa: do we have room for an OP_TRUE at the end so we can embed this in an accepted transaction?
714 2011-11-19 21:06:19 <sipa> just don't push zero
715 2011-11-19 21:06:25 <roconnor> oh right
716 2011-11-19 21:06:32 <roconnor> almost every number is true
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746 2011-11-19 22:51:52 <roconnor> waik, how does Eligius pay out from the coinbase immediately if coinbase funds cannot be used for 100 blocks?
747 2011-11-19 22:51:54 <roconnor> *wait
748 2011-11-19 22:52:17 <cjdelisle> the coinbase contains your address
749 2011-11-19 22:52:29 <cjdelisle> the same way as solo mining pays out to the address of the miner
750 2011-11-19 22:52:35 <roconnor> oh
751 2011-11-19 22:52:42 <roconnor> good point
752 2011-11-19 22:53:00 <cjdelisle> One of those things that sounds wrong till you relize it..
753 2011-11-19 22:53:04 * cjdelisle has been there ;)
754 2011-11-19 22:53:04 <roconnor> heh
755 2011-11-19 22:53:14 <roconnor> cjdelisle: thanks for making me feel better
756 2011-11-19 22:53:55 <cjdelisle> how's your script validator going?
757 2011-11-19 22:53:58 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
758 2011-11-19 22:54:37 <roconnor> cjdelisle: I need to implement OP_IF et al., properly implement OP_CODESEPARATOR, and implement OP_SHA1
759 2011-11-19 22:54:46 <roconnor> also I need to implement orphan blocks
760 2011-11-19 22:54:54 <cjdelisle> you have CHECKSIG?
761 2011-11-19 22:54:58 <roconnor> oh yes
762 2011-11-19 22:55:00 <cjdelisle> and CHECKMULTISIG?
763 2011-11-19 22:55:03 <roconnor> yes
764 2011-11-19 22:55:05 <cjdelisle> nice
765 2011-11-19 22:55:23 <cjdelisle> then you're on the home stretch
766 2011-11-19 22:55:40 <roconnor> oh then I need to fix the million of tiny incompatabilities
767 2011-11-19 22:55:48 <cjdelisle> heh
768 2011-11-19 22:56:16 <cjdelisle> Something I was sort of thinking would be fun is to rip the satoshi script validator out of bitcoin and make an executable
769 2011-11-19 22:56:29 <roconnor> :)
770 2011-11-19 22:56:37 <cjdelisle> not really useful but you could play with it
771 2011-11-19 22:57:00 <roconnor> I have a custom build of bitcoin that puts random numbers for version numbers.
772 2011-11-19 22:57:08 <cjdelisle> echo 'hsuahlkjkr83IFHKJSsfhl' | openssl enc -d -base64 | validate
773 2011-11-19 22:57:15 <cjdelisle> hehe
774 2011-11-19 22:57:32 <cjdelisle> what does the default impl do?
775 2011-11-19 22:57:39 <cjdelisle> when it sees your weird numbers
776 2011-11-19 22:57:46 <roconnor> ignores them
777 2011-11-19 22:58:28 <cjdelisle> Actually something that would benefit bitcoin IMO is breaking it up into libraries
778 2011-11-19 22:58:51 <cjdelisle> so you could call libsatoshi_validateScript()
779 2011-11-19 22:58:53 <roconnor> heh, my impelemention has a lot more modules :)
780 2011-11-19 22:59:24 <cjdelisle> Also easy reuse of uint256 and bignum would be cool
781 2011-11-19 22:59:50 <roconnor> bignum is just a wrapper around OpenSSL's BIGNUM
782 2011-11-19 23:00:25 <cjdelisle> Yea but the operator overloading makes it candy to use.
783 2011-11-19 23:00:46 <roconnor> true
784 2011-11-19 23:01:14 <roconnor> though there must be much better implementations out ther
785 2011-11-19 23:01:19 <roconnor> that use GMP
786 2011-11-19 23:01:30 <cjdelisle> GMP?
787 2011-11-19 23:01:45 <roconnor> http://gmplib.org/
788 2011-11-19 23:01:58 <roconnor> GMP is a free library for arbitrary precision arithmetic, operating on signed integers, rational numbers, and floating point numbers. There is no practical limit to the precision except the ones implied by the available memory in the machine GMP runs on. GMP has a rich set of functions, and the functions have a regular interface.
789 2011-11-19 23:02:12 <cjdelisle> nice
790 2011-11-19 23:02:20 <cjdelisle> hopefully not as horrible as openssl
791 2011-11-19 23:02:29 <roconnor> I don't think so
792 2011-11-19 23:02:32 <roconnor> Haskell uses GMP
793 2011-11-19 23:02:37 <cjdelisle> although I looked at parts of openssl and it was okish
794 2011-11-19 23:02:39 <roconnor> rather GHC uses GMP
795 2011-11-19 23:02:58 <Diablo-D3> gmp is awesome
796 2011-11-19 23:03:08 <Diablo-D3> slow as fuck though
797 2011-11-19 23:03:14 <cjdelisle> ahh yes
798 2011-11-19 23:03:26 <cjdelisle> openssl people probably threw a ton of optimizations at it
799 2011-11-19 23:03:45 <Diablo-D3> well, its a software fp impl that allows unlimited precision
800 2011-11-19 23:03:51 <Diablo-D3> its going to be slow
801 2011-11-19 23:04:13 <roconnor> Diablo-D3: what about the GMP integer implementation?
802 2011-11-19 23:04:20 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
803 2011-11-19 23:04:24 <cjdelisle> fp and integer are the same except for the extra number
804 2011-11-19 23:04:24 <Diablo-D3> bigint?
805 2011-11-19 23:04:29 <Diablo-D3> almost the same thing
806 2011-11-19 23:05:24 <copumpkin> Diablo-D3: what's faster than it?
807 2011-11-19 23:05:33 <copumpkin> and nobody uses GMP's multiprecision floating-point numbers
808 2011-11-19 23:05:49 <copumpkin> they were effectively moved to MPFR
809 2011-11-19 23:05:54 * cjdelisle bets openssl is faster because it has more development attention
810 2011-11-19 23:06:06 <copumpkin> isn't openssl trying to be slower?
811 2011-11-19 23:06:17 <copumpkin> to avoid timing information leaking from big integer operations?
812 2011-11-19 23:06:32 <copumpkin> and GMP is fairly active and mainstream
813 2011-11-19 23:06:58 <cjdelisle> fairly active and mainstream != universal
814 2011-11-19 23:07:00 <copumpkin> http://lists.virus.org/cryptography-0601/msg00002.html
815 2011-11-19 23:07:06 <cjdelisle> openssl is the way things work
816 2011-11-19 23:07:12 <copumpkin> my anecdotal evidence wins!
817 2011-11-19 23:07:36 <copumpkin> http://gmplib.org/list-archives/gmp-discuss/2005-March/001575.html moar
818 2011-11-19 23:07:36 <cjdelisle> cool
819 2011-11-19 23:07:53 <copumpkin> but as it says, for timing-sensitive operations, you don't want speed
820 2011-11-19 23:08:00 <copumpkin> you want constant-time arithmetic
821 2011-11-19 23:08:10 <copumpkin> or rather, no-shortcut arithmetic :)
822 2011-11-19 23:08:36 <cjdelisle> well that's RSA
823 2011-11-19 23:08:56 Bwild has joined
824 2011-11-19 23:09:08 <cjdelisle> A very good argument can be made for constant time RSA ops
825 2011-11-19 23:09:16 <copumpkin> a huge amount of effort goes into a crapload of architecture-specific assembly for the tight inner loops in gmp
826 2011-11-19 23:09:37 <cjdelisle> it would be wastefull to foist that upon plain multiplication or whatnot
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830 2011-11-19 23:09:41 <copumpkin> cjdelisle: true
831 2011-11-19 23:09:54 <copumpkin> it'd be nice for gmp to have no-shortcut versions of all its operations
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833 2011-11-19 23:10:04 <copumpkin> but it's never really sold itself as a cryptographic library
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835 2011-11-19 23:10:50 <cjdelisle> hmm you would need extra crap for doing point multiplication
836 2011-11-19 23:11:30 <copumpkin> roconnor: you're using GHC's GMP Integer for your implementation, right?
837 2011-11-19 23:13:49 <roconnor> copumpkin: when compiled with GHC I am
838 2011-11-19 23:14:21 <roconnor> copumpkin: but verification, by its nature, doesn't need to worry about leaking secrets
839 2011-11-19 23:14:29 <copumpkin> yeah
840 2011-11-19 23:14:32 <roconnor> copumpkin: I have code to generate signatures, but it isn't exported
841 2011-11-19 23:15:02 <roconnor> (it is also called unsafeMkSignature since it doesn't enforce that a random nonce is used)
842 2011-11-19 23:15:16 <roconnor> (I guess I should warn about timing attacks)
843 2011-11-19 23:15:59 Beremat has joined
844 2011-11-19 23:16:13 <roconnor> maybe OpenSSL bindings should be used to create signatures.
845 2011-11-19 23:16:23 <roconnor> when/if I get to that point
846 2011-11-19 23:16:48 <roconnor> and frankly if people are timing my processes on my laptop; I have much bigger problems.
847 2011-11-19 23:17:15 <copumpkin> yep, but you could imagine people timing stuff remotely, if you provide any sort of remote interface to it
848 2011-11-19 23:17:34 <copumpkin> (and unrestricted access to operations that use your private key)
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850 2011-11-19 23:25:12 <cjdelisle> Major changes between OpenSSL 0.9.7g and OpenSSL 0.9.8:
851 2011-11-19 23:25:17 <cjdelisle> New engine module: GMP (performs private key exponentiation).
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854 2011-11-19 23:33:01 <roconnor> copumpkin: I've put in motion my nefarious plan to fork the blockchain
855 2011-11-19 23:33:39 <copumpkin> oh?
856 2011-11-19 23:33:51 <cjdelisle> what do you need a fork for?
857 2011-11-19 23:34:33 <roconnor> cjdelisle: to either destroy bitcoin or make it stronger
858 2011-11-19 23:34:55 <cjdelisle> oh, you're attacking to see what happens?
859 2011-11-19 23:34:58 <cjdelisle> sounds like fun
860 2011-11-19 23:35:02 <roconnor> :)
861 2011-11-19 23:35:10 <cjdelisle> how does it work?
862 2011-11-19 23:35:31 <roconnor> My weapon is a blog post: http://r6.ca/blog/20111119T211504Z.html
863 2011-11-19 23:36:03 <roconnor> it is designed to entice a change in the way that OpenSSL decodes ECDSA signatures.
864 2011-11-19 23:36:32 <roconnor> thus bitcoin clients linking to different versions of openssl will implement different bitcoin rules
865 2011-11-19 23:36:43 <roconnor> making the conditions ripe for a fork
866 2011-11-19 23:37:05 <roconnor> all without touching the bitcoin source files
867 2011-11-19 23:37:07 <cjdelisle> hehe
868 2011-11-19 23:37:12 <cjdelisle> not likely
869 2011-11-19 23:37:23 <cjdelisle> more likely the openssl people will fix it like this:
870 2011-11-19 23:37:50 <cjdelisle> /* We could fix this but it would mean the new version would be different than the old version so we won't. Problem? */
871 2011-11-19 23:38:10 <cjdelisle> same as their DER encoding goofieness
872 2011-11-19 23:38:13 <roconnor> right, that is why I need someone to find an exploit; preferably several
873 2011-11-19 23:38:59 <cjdelisle> which will no doubt be met with a dirty if statement
874 2011-11-19 23:39:43 <cjdelisle> if (this_looks_like_johns_exploit()) { oh_no_you_dont(); }
875 2011-11-19 23:40:03 <roconnor> ya, the solution, in the unlikely event that openssl changes would be that bitcoin would massage the signatures before sending them off to openssl to maintain compatibility.
876 2011-11-19 23:40:55 <roconnor> bitcoin could even implement this today, just to be safe.
877 2011-11-19 23:41:07 SomeoneWeirdzzzz is now known as SomeoneWeird
878 2011-11-19 23:42:35 <cjdelisle> have you crafted a tx which should not validate?
879 2011-11-19 23:43:09 <roconnor> cjdelisle: not, me; I found it in testnet
880 2011-11-19 23:44:08 <cjdelisle> oh, ic
881 2011-11-19 23:45:38 <cjdelisle> it sounds a bit like the way xulrunner parses xml
882 2011-11-19 23:45:46 <cjdelisle> it tries to guess what you meant...
883 2011-11-19 23:47:30 <roconnor> cjdelisle: this is the transaction in question: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/95038c3155de45fc7753f90b35c04b494ff1379e665dbbd9d013496a2531b7a7
884 2011-11-19 23:47:37 <cjdelisle> hmm if bignum uses this, all of satoshi's work on negative numbers is for naut.
885 2011-11-19 23:47:56 <roconnor> cjdelisle:  nope, it is specifically the DER decoding of openssl
886 2011-11-19 23:48:23 <roconnor> bignum supports negative numbers AFAIK
887 2011-11-19 23:48:27 <roconnor> (I haven't tested it)
888 2011-11-19 23:48:33 <cjdelisle> yes, it has negative stuff in it
889 2011-11-19 23:48:55 <roconnor> basically the openssl developers are very very lazy
890 2011-11-19 23:49:59 <cjdelisle> that and very intent on keeping up their APIs
891 2011-11-19 23:50:14 <cjdelisle> broken apis suck
892 2011-11-19 23:50:19 <cjdelisle> insecure apis are worse
893 2011-11-19 23:50:55 <cjdelisle> like read_file8() /* We'll get it right this time. */
894 2011-11-19 23:51:34 <roconnor> cjdelisle: is that real?
895 2011-11-19 23:51:51 <cjdelisle> that's an example but microsoft is full of stuff like that
896 2011-11-19 23:51:56 <roconnor> :)
897 2011-11-19 23:52:09 <cjdelisle> You have an api which can be used to root the box:
898 2011-11-19 23:52:09 <roconnor> more like readFileExExExExExExExEx
899 2011-11-19 23:52:24 <cjdelisle> 1. remove it and break thousands of programs and make people really mad
900 2011-11-19 23:52:47 <cjdelisle> 2. add some detection to see if the user is likely to get root by using it and stop them
901 2011-11-19 23:53:00 <cjdelisle> everyone always chooses 2