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   7 2011-11-20 00:25:25 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r5549a7bcbd81 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (5 files): net-p2p/bitcoind: bump to rc6
   8 2011-11-20 00:25:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r070bde62287f gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (Manifest bitcoind-0.4.0.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoind: remove 0.4.0 due to security issue
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  13 2011-11-20 00:30:02 <roconnor> I guess it is a good thing that I haven't pushed 0.4.0 into nix yet
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  15 2011-11-20 00:30:47 <cjdelisle> what was the issue?
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  17 2011-11-20 00:31:43 <roconnor> wallet encryption leaks ... something
  18 2011-11-20 00:31:48 <cjdelisle> oh right, that
  19 2011-11-20 00:31:57 <cjdelisle> I derp'd it
  20 2011-11-20 00:32:07 <cjdelisle> Not much of an issue to me
  21 2011-11-20 00:33:32 <roconnor> ya, but when you are putting something in a distro, you have to tell everyone when things go wrong :(
  22 2011-11-20 00:34:27 <cjdelisle> yea, I just saw it and was like "wha?" because I use the bleeding edge git pull ofc
  23 2011-11-20 00:35:34 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r1a69b568f374 gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (Manifest wxbitcoin-0.4.1_rc6.ebuild): net-p2p/wxbitcoin: bump to 0.4.1_rc6
  24 2011-11-20 00:35:35 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rf1bf3bdb0a3b gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (Manifest wxbitcoin-0.4.0.ebuild): net-p2p/wxbitcoin: remove 0.4.0 due to security issue
  25 2011-11-20 00:35:44 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rc1894aed2811 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (3 files): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt: bump to rc6
  26 2011-11-20 00:35:45 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r4ab39e0820b6 gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/wxbitcoin-0.4.1_rc5.ebuild: net-p2p/wxbitcoin: forgot to remove rc5
  27 2011-11-20 00:35:46 <luke-jr> roconnor: nix?
  28 2011-11-20 00:36:01 <roconnor> luke-jr: http://nixos.org/
  29 2011-11-20 00:36:09 <roconnor> ``Nix is a purely functional package manager. This means that it can ensure that an upgrade to one package cannot break others, that you can always roll back to previous version, that multiple versions of a package can coexist on the same system, and much more.
  30 2011-11-20 00:36:37 <luke-jr> sounds similar to what I had planned for Utopios
  31 2011-11-20 00:36:53 <roconnor> Nix has been my distro on my laptop for the last 2 years
  32 2011-11-20 00:37:21 <roconnor> I guess I'm the maintainer for the bitcoin package
  33 2011-11-20 00:37:28 <luke-jr> Moving to GitHub	<-- BOO
  34 2011-11-20 00:37:47 <roconnor> still, it is an improvement over svn
  35 2011-11-20 00:37:53 <luke-jr> in some areas.
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  43 2011-11-20 01:03:39 <roconnor> ``The protocol will never support transactions that change/expire automatically after some period of time, as this causes problems.
  44 2011-11-20 01:03:49 <roconnor> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1986/contracts-will-this-be-possible
  45 2011-11-20 01:03:54 <roconnor> this isn't entirely true
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  48 2011-11-20 01:04:48 <roconnor> bitcoin supports transactions time locked transactions that can be placed into the block chain unless superceeded
  49 2011-11-20 01:05:19 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r10affcd3bbd2 gentoo/net-p2p/namecoin/ (Manifest namecoin-0.3.24.64.ebuild namecoin-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/namecoin: still needs crypto++
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  57 2011-11-20 01:30:24 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r4c61659f60f1 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (8 files): net-p2p/bitcoind: EAPI updates & extra dies (for ultra-paranoid sunrise policies)
  58 2011-11-20 01:32:33 <luke-jr> roconnor: since when?
  59 2011-11-20 01:40:20 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r64fcb2044b82 gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (7 files): net-p2p/wxbitcoin: EAPI updates & extra dies (for ultra-paranoid sunrise policies)
  60 2011-11-20 01:40:22 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r15e6589f03e2 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (Manifest bitcoin-qt-0.5.0_rc6.ebuild bitcoin-qt-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt: EAPI updates & extra dies (for ultra-paranoid sunrise policies)
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  91 2011-11-20 03:02:33 <FellowTraveler1> hi all
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  94 2011-11-20 03:14:48 * Zarutian looks at the topic and realizes "it is to 0.4 already?!"
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 104 2011-11-20 03:39:02 <roconnor> luke-jr: since always
 105 2011-11-20 03:39:14 <roconnor> the client doesn't support it, but it is in the rules
 106 2011-11-20 03:43:01 <roconnor> luke-jr: I don't fully understand how it is intended to be used, but the rules are in place.
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 112 2011-11-20 03:53:36 <roconnor> I'm surprised by the number of coins lost to uncollected tx fees
 113 2011-11-20 03:54:12 <theymos> I though there was only about 1 BTC lost in that way.
 114 2011-11-20 03:55:16 <theymos> Actually, last time I checked there was only 0.01000001 lost that way.
 115 2011-11-20 03:55:19 <roconnor> looks like 0.11010008000000004 BTC
 116 2011-11-20 03:55:28 <roconnor> er
 117 2011-11-20 03:55:31 <roconnor> sorry
 118 2011-11-20 03:55:35 <roconnor> floating point
 119 2011-11-20 03:55:57 <roconnor> looks like 0.11010008 BTC
 120 2011-11-20 03:56:36 <roconnor> but from my little sampling it seems to happen often
 121 2011-11-20 03:56:44 <roconnor> last time was the block @ 2011-11-19 05:35:10
 122 2011-11-20 03:56:50 <roconnor> which was a few hours ago
 123 2011-11-20 03:56:57 <roconnor> er
 124 2011-11-20 03:56:58 <theymos> Which block number?
 125 2011-11-20 03:57:12 <roconnor> @ 2011-11-19 05:58:55
 126 2011-11-20 03:57:16 <roconnor> block 153919
 127 2011-11-20 04:00:59 <theymos> I don't see how this could happen accidentally unless people are using replacements for bitcoind. Maybe they do it on purpose -- destroying coins utterly is kind of a neat concept.
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 140 2011-11-20 04:28:33 <luke-jr> roconnor: if the client doesn't support it, then the rules forbid it.
 141 2011-11-20 04:28:40 <luke-jr> the client's support *is* the rules.
 142 2011-11-20 04:29:09 <roconnor> luke-jr: The client doesn't provide an interface for creating these transactions, but it will accept blocks with these transactions in them.
 143 2011-11-20 04:29:15 <luke-jr> oh
 144 2011-11-20 04:29:20 <luke-jr> I thought it didn't…
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 146 2011-11-20 04:29:41 <roconnor> yep; it supports all the lock time stuff
 147 2011-11-20 04:31:47 <roconnor> I mean if there is a transaction whose time lock is exceeded the block will be accepted (and rejected if the time lock hasn't been exceeded)
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 193 2011-11-20 06:19:08 <denisx> so, now my push pool sends LP calls to normal clients first, then works 2 seconds on the event loop (to send them out) and then works on the botnet LP calls
 194 2011-11-20 06:19:52 <SomeoneWeird> heh
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 199 2011-11-20 06:35:30 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * ra91306..86bc04 gentoo/net-p2p/ (34 files in 7 dirs): (7 commits)
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 228 2011-11-20 08:40:22 <c_k> hmm it would be neat to be able to specify the IP bitcoind binds to
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 330 2011-11-20 14:15:24 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rd0026b9118f3 gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (12 files): net-p2p/wxbitcoin: remove symlinks from old versions
 331 2011-11-20 14:16:56 num1 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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 333 2011-11-20 14:25:21 <cocktopus> devs, i finally was able to cap the error i have been getting with 0.4 freezing
 334 2011-11-20 14:25:52 <cocktopus> it happens only occasionally when trying to send coins from an encrypted wallet
 335 2011-11-20 14:26:11 <cocktopus> http://i.imgur.com/3T4E0.png is a the screenshot
 336 2011-11-20 14:26:19 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * r2522b9b5fcd9 gentoo/ (62 files in 21 dirs): Delete everything not going upstream
 337 2011-11-20 14:26:22 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * r88d35eda6f81 gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (7 files): net-p2p/wxbitcoin: Remove overlay-specific message
 338 2011-11-20 14:27:55 <cocktopus> when sending, the gui freezes at the password prompt indefinitely and will not respond to input, however the tray icon still works
 339 2011-11-20 14:28:22 <cocktopus> the error shows when closing the gui using the tray icon after the freeze has started
 340 2011-11-20 14:28:28 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 341 2011-11-20 14:28:35 <cocktopus> the error goes away after a few minutes
 342 2011-11-20 14:28:43 <cocktopus> or seconds actually
 343 2011-11-20 14:29:02 <cocktopus> anyways, hope that screenshot helps diagnose the issue.
 344 2011-11-20 14:30:15 <nanotube> seems that no devs are active atm - stick around and make sure they see it :) or post a github issue
 345 2011-11-20 14:31:43 <cocktopus> will do
 346 2011-11-20 14:32:36 <cocktopus> i just saw luke-jr committing code, so i figured someone was awake :)
 347 2011-11-20 14:32:41 Guest37642 is now known as jarpiain
 348 2011-11-20 14:34:00 <nanotube> well luke probably is :)
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 350 2011-11-20 14:35:22 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * ra4c3641f5746 gentoo/net-p2p/ (7 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind: remove 0.3.21 through 0.3.23
 351 2011-11-20 14:35:24 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * re3528042d5d9 gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/Manifest: net-p2p/wxbitcoin: remove 0.3.21 through 0.3.23
 352 2011-11-20 14:38:34 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 353 2011-11-20 14:40:02 <sipa> cocktopus: 0.4 only?
 354 2011-11-20 14:41:24 wereHamster has joined
 355 2011-11-20 14:41:38 <cocktopus> sipa as far as i know yes
 356 2011-11-20 14:42:07 <cocktopus> i have't used 0.5 and up with bitcoin, although i have used it with litecoin
 357 2011-11-20 14:43:15 <luke-jr> cocktopus: wxbitcoin isn't maintained.
 358 2011-11-20 14:43:31 <cocktopus> k
 359 2011-11-20 14:44:16 <luke-jr> if you want to maintain it, let us know :p
 360 2011-11-20 14:45:04 <cocktopus> wish i knew how to code, i would be all over it if i could
 361 2011-11-20 14:46:25 <nanotube> luke-jr: aren't you doing 0.4.1 based on wx?
 362 2011-11-20 14:47:31 PK has quit ()
 363 2011-11-20 14:47:36 <sipa> bitcoind only
 364 2011-11-20 14:49:04 <nanotube> ah
 365 2011-11-20 14:50:28 <luke-jr> nanotube: due to the security issue, Gavin and I are planning a wx 0.4.1, but that's it.
 366 2011-11-20 14:51:39 <nanotube> mm ic
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 379 2011-11-20 15:46:05 gavinandresen has joined
 380 2011-11-20 15:51:18 <gavinandresen> good morning y'all.  Anybody willing to help me think through a "plan E" for the wallet encryption problem?
 381 2011-11-20 15:51:55 <gavinandresen> dooglus or sipa or gmaxwell : ping?
 382 2011-11-20 16:01:33 <[Tycho]> Hello, gavinandresen
 383 2011-11-20 16:01:43 <gavinandresen> howdy]
 384 2011-11-20 16:02:19 * [Tycho] is trying to understand why bitcoind prefers to include some TXes and avoids others...
 385 2011-11-20 16:03:31 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: why OP_CAT is disabled ? How can it be dangerous ?
 386 2011-11-20 16:04:25 <[Tycho]> I found it to be a bit more difficult to apply salts when there is almost no mixing ops there...
 387 2011-11-20 16:04:32 <gavinandresen> A series of DUP OP_CAT calls could create a very large data item on the stack.
 388 2011-11-20 16:04:45 <gavinandresen> I suspect that is why Satoshi disabled it
 389 2011-11-20 16:05:41 <Joric> did satoshi approve Qt? what if you're making him sad
 390 2011-11-20 16:05:47 <[Tycho]> I think that by removing two operands and placing one result the total size should be the same...
 391 2011-11-20 16:06:05 <[Tycho]> Also there is if (stacktop(-1).size() > 520)  in OP_CAT code
 392 2011-11-20 16:07:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: plan E?
 393 2011-11-20 16:07:43 <gavinandresen> Plan E:   leave the database/log file(s) alone, and rely on bdb to get rid of them eventually.
 394 2011-11-20 16:08:31 <[Tycho]> Protection should be done by some other way, not by disabling such nice ops :(
 395 2011-11-20 16:09:11 <gavinandresen> Tycho:  it is what it is.
 396 2011-11-20 16:09:49 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: the patch you asked me to use is already created or not yet ?
 397 2011-11-20 16:10:18 <gavinandresen> What are you trying to do Tycho?  OP_HASH160 and OP_EVAL can work nicely as a hashing/salting function
 398 2011-11-20 16:11:01 <[Tycho]> I was thinking about salting arbitrary data for strange transactions. Not something specific yet.
 399 2011-11-20 16:11:07 <gavinandresen> Tycho:  I've been busy dealing with the 0.5/0.4.1 release, but creating patches for miners for OP_EVAL is next on my todo list
 400 2011-11-20 16:11:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: is there any way to make bdb delete all its log files?
 401 2011-11-20 16:11:22 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 402 2011-11-20 16:11:36 <gavinandresen> sipa: I haven't found one.  Best we can do is ask it to delete the unused ones (and I'm trying to figure out where that call is hiding right now)
 403 2011-11-20 16:11:49 <[Tycho]> Ok, notify me when there will be something to see.
 404 2011-11-20 16:12:09 <iddo> last post in forum has same DbException with 0.5.0rc6 that i have: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=52008.msg624876#msg624876
 405 2011-11-20 16:12:14 <sipa> are there too much problems with rewriting that you're considering this?
 406 2011-11-20 16:12:27 MobiusL has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 407 2011-11-20 16:12:34 <iddo> any idea yet why 0.4.1 doesn't have this problem?
 408 2011-11-20 16:12:38 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: is it that extension that will allow scripts in redeeming part ?
 409 2011-11-20 16:12:48 <sipa> [Tycho]: yes
 410 2011-11-20 16:13:06 <[Tycho]> Hello, sipa. What's your project ?
 411 2011-11-20 16:13:26 MobiusL has joined
 412 2011-11-20 16:13:54 <[Tycho]> Oh, i remember, it's network graphs.
 413 2011-11-20 16:13:55 <gavinandresen> ... ah, of course, call DbEnv::log_archive with the DB_ARCH_REMOVE flag.........  grrr
 414 2011-11-20 16:14:12 <sipa> [Tycho]: and from time to time working on bitcoin itself
 415 2011-11-20 16:14:30 <[Tycho]> What's that thing with graphs called ?
 416 2011-11-20 16:14:38 <sipa> bitcoin.sipa.be ?
 417 2011-11-20 16:14:44 <[Tycho]> Ok.
 418 2011-11-20 16:15:03 <sipa> haven't done anything with that for quite some time
 419 2011-11-20 16:15:18 <[Tycho]> I'm just updating my notes.
 420 2011-11-20 16:15:23 MobiusL has quit (Client Quit)
 421 2011-11-20 16:15:47 MobiusL has joined
 422 2011-11-20 16:16:49 <[Tycho]> What will happen if i'll create a transaction with failed input ?
 423 2011-11-20 16:16:53 <gavinandresen> iddo:  no idea why the problem is happening.
 424 2011-11-20 16:17:24 <[Tycho]> Also someone told me that output is not mandatory, but this turned out to be wrong...
 425 2011-11-20 16:17:41 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rb2d3b2d / (src/db.cpp src/db.h src/wallet.cpp): Never remove database files on shutdown, it caused unreadable wallets on some testers' machines. - http://git.io/ICP9Uw
 426 2011-11-20 16:18:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: can iddo's problem be related to not letting the CDB go out of scope before the actual rewriting?
 427 2011-11-20 16:18:30 <sipa> (it shouldn't, it's a different db file, but still...)
 428 2011-11-20 16:18:56 <gavinandresen> So: that means there will be a period after encrypting/re-encrypting your wallet that unencrypted private keys are very likely to be in a database/log.* file
 429 2011-11-20 16:18:56 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 430 2011-11-20 16:19:24 <[Tycho]> I want to do some redeeming, but i'm a bit afraid to fail the first attempts.
 431 2011-11-20 16:19:24 <iddo> i'll ask the person in forum to try to convert with 0.4.1 and give the wallet.dat it produces to 0.5.0rc6, that worked ok here
 432 2011-11-20 16:19:36 <gavinandresen> Those logs are automatically rotated, and bitcoin already calls DB_ARCH_REMOVE to remove unused ones on clean shutdown....
 433 2011-11-20 16:20:35 <gavinandresen> iddo:  I'd rather the person in the forum tested rc7, which I'm going to start building now
 434 2011-11-20 16:20:45 <sipa> gavinandresen: sec
 435 2011-11-20 16:21:24 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: that is what the -testnet is for...
 436 2011-11-20 16:21:30 diki has joined
 437 2011-11-20 16:21:56 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: yes, but TX I want to redeem in in the blockchain.
 438 2011-11-20 16:22:00 <[Tycho]> *is
 439 2011-11-20 16:22:33 <iddo> ok i cancelled my reply to person in forum
 440 2011-11-20 16:22:34 <sipa> [Tycho]: "output is not mandatory" ?
 441 2011-11-20 16:23:25 <[Tycho]> sipa: I was asking about if any TX should have an output or not. Looking at the code I see that TX without outputs is invalid...
 442 2011-11-20 16:23:46 <eueueue> Question: will be possible to have an address that only accept receive btcs from pre-definied addresses?
 443 2011-11-20 16:23:59 <sipa> eueueue: no
 444 2011-11-20 16:24:14 <sipa> [Tycho]: you need at least one input and one output, but they can have value 0
 445 2011-11-20 16:25:02 <[Tycho]> sipa: thanks, looks like output with zero value may work... But it's not as funny as with no outputs at all.
 446 2011-11-20 16:25:14 <sipa> why?
 447 2011-11-20 16:25:36 <[Tycho]> It would be a non-standard way of sending funds.
 448 2011-11-20 16:26:04 <sipa> what for?
 449 2011-11-20 16:26:12 <gavinandresen> let me guess:  miner-to-miner payments...
 450 2011-11-20 16:26:34 <[Tycho]> Making fun of existing coin history tracers.
 451 2011-11-20 16:27:03 <gavinandresen> Ah, interesting....
 452 2011-11-20 16:27:19 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: also any-to-pool payments. But it's risky if the block becomes invalid and others will see the TX.
 453 2011-11-20 16:27:20 <gavinandresen> "Re-minting" coins
 454 2011-11-20 16:27:25 <[Tycho]> Yes.
 455 2011-11-20 16:28:40 <sipa> gavinandresen: my resilver branch has a fix for the not-closing-db bug
 456 2011-11-20 16:29:05 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: do you want to see my new strange TX ? :)
 457 2011-11-20 16:29:14 <gavinandresen> sipa:  remind me:  what not-closing-db bug?
 458 2011-11-20 16:29:26 <roconnor> [Tycho]: I do
 459 2011-11-20 16:29:31 <sipa> gavinandresen: we found it here during a discussion, though it didn't seem to cause any problems
 460 2011-11-20 16:29:52 <sipa> gavinandresen: we were closing the old wallet.dat and deleting it where a db handle was still open to it
 461 2011-11-20 16:30:53 <gavinandresen> sipa:  got it.     There's no way to tell github's diff to ignore whitespace changes, is there?
 462 2011-11-20 16:31:24 <[Tycho]> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/8c8baf2e0529c0193ad3a583306a16fcc3e9cd271ba625e12bfd74261a46ad7c
 463 2011-11-20 16:31:31 <[Tycho]> Isn't it nice ? :)
 464 2011-11-20 16:32:55 <Graet> <MagicalTux> blockchain parser is halted because it encountered a weird tx: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/9969603dca74d14d29d1d5f56b94c7872551607f8c2d6837ab9715c60721b50e  << i guess it caused someone problems ;)
 465 2011-11-20 16:33:30 <[Tycho]> Got him !! ^)
 466 2011-11-20 16:33:45 <Graet> lol
 467 2011-11-20 16:34:00 <sipa> [Tycho]: if you redeem that tx, all other miners will have an incentive to ignore your block, and redeem it themselves
 468 2011-11-20 16:34:51 chrisb__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 469 2011-11-20 16:34:51 <sipa> gavinandresen: not that i know of
 470 2011-11-20 16:35:11 <[Tycho]> Also blockchain.info stops when listing it among unconfirmed TXes.
 471 2011-11-20 16:35:26 <[Tycho]> Graet: when and where was it ? I want to see the log :)
 472 2011-11-20 16:35:31 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 473 2011-11-20 16:36:08 <[Tycho]> sipa: i undertand that they will have the "key", but should they cooperate to do this ?
 474 2011-11-20 16:36:10 <Graet> #mtgox [Tycho]
 475 2011-11-20 16:36:17 mologie has joined
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 478 2011-11-20 16:36:42 <sipa> [Tycho]: if the reward is worth it, it may be in their best interest to do so
 479 2011-11-20 16:37:04 <Graet> that was the only comment apart from parsing had started again
 480 2011-11-20 16:37:20 <[Tycho]> I was thinking that my network share is enough for that.
 481 2011-11-20 16:37:47 <sipa> if it's a 1000 BTC tx, it most probably isn't
 482 2011-11-20 16:39:51 eueueue has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 483 2011-11-20 16:39:54 <[Tycho]> How deep should my initial redeeming block be to make it mostly impossible ?
 484 2011-11-20 16:39:58 chrisb__ has joined
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 487 2011-11-20 16:40:57 eoss has joined
 488 2011-11-20 16:41:34 <[Tycho]> sipa: was it the reason why "gavin's random numbers example" was removed from the wiki ?
 489 2011-11-20 16:41:35 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * rf53c5ed / src/db.cpp : close old db when rewriting - http://git.io/So8IIQ
 490 2011-11-20 16:42:19 <sipa> [Tycho]: if you have 50% mining share, and all the rest conspires against you, 2 blocks
 491 2011-11-20 16:42:23 <gavinandresen> I believe my random number example didn't work because adding OP_ADD is limited to 32-bit operands
 492 2011-11-20 16:42:41 <sipa> [Tycho]: oh wait, 1+(txout_value / 50) blocks
 493 2011-11-20 16:43:05 <roconnor> gavinandresen: oh crap, is that true?
 494 2011-11-20 16:43:28 <gavinandresen> roconnor: lemme double check....
 495 2011-11-20 16:43:48 <sipa> can't find that
 496 2011-11-20 16:44:03 <sipa> it is
 497 2011-11-20 16:44:05 <sipa> damn
 498 2011-11-20 16:44:14 <gavinandresen> Yep, CastToBigNum() looks at nMaxNumSize, which is 4, which is 4 bytes, which is 32 bits
 499 2011-11-20 16:44:19 <sipa> all arithmetic is limited to 32 bits
 500 2011-11-20 16:44:26 <[Tycho]> Sometimes I even think about using sendmany for my payouts...
 501 2011-11-20 16:44:41 <sipa> [Tycho]: why wouldn't you?
 502 2011-11-20 16:44:48 <Graet> you dont [Tycho] ?
 503 2011-11-20 16:44:54 <[Tycho]> Graet: no.
 504 2011-11-20 16:44:58 <gavinandresen> (nMaxNumSize was reduced to 4 in the great "disable the world" change)
 505 2011-11-20 16:45:10 <Graet> K
 506 2011-11-20 16:45:18 <[Tycho]> Sending individual TXes causes my wallet.dat to grow.
 507 2011-11-20 16:45:38 * sipa doesn't see why a limit on number of stack elements + max size of stack elements isn't enough
 508 2011-11-20 16:45:49 * roconnor feels like giving up.
 509 2011-11-20 16:46:07 <[Tycho]> sipa: yes, I want more enabled ops :)
 510 2011-11-20 16:46:38 <gavinandresen> roconnor: you're re-implementing bitcoin?
 511 2011-11-20 16:46:52 urstroyer has left ()
 512 2011-11-20 16:46:52 <roconnor> gavinandresen: just the verification part so far
 513 2011-11-20 16:46:57 TD_ is now known as TD
 514 2011-11-20 16:47:09 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
 515 2011-11-20 16:47:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: in Haskell :)
 516 2011-11-20 16:47:26 <gavinandresen> roconnor: Third on my TODO list is to get back to cross-implementation testing framework to try to test all these edge cases...
 517 2011-11-20 16:47:31 erus` has joined
 518 2011-11-20 16:47:43 <[Tycho]> I wonder if there is a way to create safe strange TXes without using those digital signatures.
 519 2011-11-20 16:47:44 <gavinandresen> ... wait, no, that's fourth, after faster-initial-download....
 520 2011-11-20 16:48:04 <sipa> [Tycho]: why don't you want digital signatures?
 521 2011-11-20 16:48:46 <[Tycho]> sipa: a solution with digital signatures is too obvious to be funny.
 522 2011-11-20 16:49:03 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: I'm 98.6% sure you need a CHECKSIG to make sure the input is redeemed to an output that you approve of.
 523 2011-11-20 16:49:23 <sipa> well whatever you're doing, it will be re-implementing a digital signature scheme yourself
 524 2011-11-20 16:49:29 <sipa> whether that is possible, not sure
 525 2011-11-20 16:49:38 <[Tycho]> Looks like you are right.
 526 2011-11-20 16:49:41 <[Tycho]> That's sad
 527 2011-11-20 16:49:49 <sipa> why?
 528 2011-11-20 16:50:01 <gavinandresen> CHECKSIG is the only operation that looks at the outputs, so I don't see how you could tie input to output any other way.
 529 2011-11-20 16:50:04 <[Tycho]> Because I like strange TXes.
 530 2011-11-20 16:50:55 <sipa> right, you can't implement a digital signature scheme without using an operation that depends on the outputs of the tx you're creating
 531 2011-11-20 16:50:57 <[Tycho]> Graet: did the parser stopped again on the second one too ?
 532 2011-11-20 16:51:39 * roconnor likes how 33 bytes of 0x0 will cause CastToBigNum to overflow
 533 2011-11-20 16:51:47 <Graet> no mention [Tycho] , but tux said it was late and he was tired ;)
 534 2011-11-20 16:52:01 <sipa> (that's why my v2 script proposal had an OP_TXHASH code)
 535 2011-11-20 16:52:34 <[Tycho]> Ok.
 536 2011-11-20 16:52:51 <[Tycho]> I'll try to come up with something even more strange.
 537 2011-11-20 16:53:00 <Graet> lol
 538 2011-11-20 16:53:08 <Graet> on that note i goto bed
 539 2011-11-20 16:53:16 <sipa> you will need checksig because of what gavinandresen said
 540 2011-11-20 16:53:22 <[Tycho]> sipa: what should it do ?
 541 2011-11-20 16:53:37 <sipa> ?
 542 2011-11-20 16:53:50 <[Tycho]> OP_TXHASH
 543 2011-11-20 16:53:59 <sipa> return the message hash of the tx being created
 544 2011-11-20 16:54:35 * roconnor wishes sipa were designing bitcoin
 545 2011-11-20 16:54:43 <[Tycho]> Yes, I see the danger, but I was thinking that people won't attack the blockchain for 0.02
 546 2011-11-20 16:54:50 <sipa> they won't
 547 2011-11-20 16:54:57 <sipa> unless for fun :)
 548 2011-11-20 16:55:30 <[Tycho]> They aren't attacking it for real TXes too.
 549 2011-11-20 16:55:37 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: for 0.02 you're right, nobody will bother trying to orphan your blocks
 550 2011-11-20 16:55:55 <gavinandresen> .. and you can get away with no CHECKSIG
 551 2011-11-20 16:56:56 <roconnor> [Tycho]: you have enough hashing power to reliably make your own blocks?
 552 2011-11-20 16:57:08 <[Tycho]> Actually I was trying to make a method for automatically checking if this TX is created by me or not. But later I realized that I can just use green address for that.
 553 2011-11-20 16:57:14 <sipa> roconnor: he controls like 50% of the mining power :p
 554 2011-11-20 16:57:15 <[Tycho]> roconnor: yes.
 555 2011-11-20 16:57:28 <roconnor> ...
 556 2011-11-20 16:57:30 <roconnor> how?
 557 2011-11-20 16:57:47 <gavinandresen> [Tycho] is Mr. DeepBit
 558 2011-11-20 16:57:50 <[Tycho]> I prefer calling it "30%" to avoid complains.
 559 2011-11-20 16:57:56 manifold_ has joined
 560 2011-11-20 16:58:10 <roconnor> oh, so you have other people to do the hashing for you :)
 561 2011-11-20 16:58:13 <sipa> it's probably closer to 30%, indeed
 562 2011-11-20 16:58:39 <roconnor> [Tycho]: have you heard of compressed public keys?
 563 2011-11-20 16:58:52 oww has joined
 564 2011-11-20 16:58:54 <[Tycho]> Don't think so. What is it ?
 565 2011-11-20 16:59:09 <sipa> 33 byte pubkeys, instead of 65 bytes
 566 2011-11-20 16:59:15 <sipa> and they Just Work (tm)
 567 2011-11-20 16:59:30 <[Tycho]> How should I use it and what for ?
 568 2011-11-20 16:59:38 <roconnor> the uncompressed form of public keys is 0x04... as you probably know.  But there is another format for keys that begins with 0x02 or 0x03 that bitcoin accepts
 569 2011-11-20 17:00:12 <[Tycho]> Hmm, nice idea. Is it supported by old clients too ?
 570 2011-11-20 17:00:15 <sipa> ydx
 571 2011-11-20 17:00:15 <roconnor> [Tycho]: it is used like any ordinary public key, except they are about half the size.
 572 2011-11-20 17:00:18 <sipa> yes
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 574 2011-11-20 17:00:29 <roconnor> [Tycho]: it has been supported since day 1 :)
 575 2011-11-20 17:00:48 <[Tycho]> Why 65-byte keys are used then ?
 576 2011-11-20 17:00:58 smtmnyz has joined
 577 2011-11-20 17:01:02 <roconnor> they haven't been used much since openssl doesn't return them by default I guess
 578 2011-11-20 17:01:46 <[Tycho]> Sadly it will only help with input size ?
 579 2011-11-20 17:04:06 <gavinandresen> output size is pretty small....
 580 2011-11-20 17:04:36 <[Tycho]> May be, but my wallet.dat reaches almost Gb in just weeks.
 581 2011-11-20 17:04:38 <roconnor> crap OP_0NOTEQUAL and OP_NOT calls CastToBigNum
 582 2011-11-20 17:05:00 <roconnor> so OP_NOT will fail on inputs larger than 4 bytes
 583 2011-11-20 17:05:08 eueueu has joined
 584 2011-11-20 17:05:11 <[Tycho]> A couple of days ago I tried switching all change to same address, but this didn't helped much.
 585 2011-11-20 17:06:07 <[Tycho]> I'm thinking about either find a way to flush old records from wallet.dat or using sendmany.
 586 2011-11-20 17:06:39 <sipa> [Tycho]: i have a patch that adds removeprivkey
 587 2011-11-20 17:06:52 <[Tycho]> How can that help ?
 588 2011-11-20 17:06:59 <sipa> it also removes all transactions that were received using it
 589 2011-11-20 17:07:00 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: sendmany should help.  Switching to sendmany and sending all change to the address it came from made the Faucet's wallet grow bigger much more slowly.
 590 2011-11-20 17:07:35 <[Tycho]> Sendmany should help partially, but it won't stop the problem itself...
 591 2011-11-20 17:08:41 <[Tycho]> sipa: yes, but it shouldn't be used with greenaddress then :(
 592 2011-11-20 17:08:57 <sipa> how so?
 593 2011-11-20 17:09:28 <[Tycho]> Also I'm thinking about inventing a patch to peek at current memorypool and transactions that are going into the block.
 594 2011-11-20 17:09:45 <sipa> you mean getmemorypool ?
 595 2011-11-20 17:10:02 <[Tycho]> I want to find exactly why it's including some transactions and doesn't want others without obvious reason.
 596 2011-11-20 17:10:20 <[Tycho]> Yes, I heard about getmemorypool, but not sure if it's exactly what I need.
 597 2011-11-20 17:10:55 <[Tycho]> sipa: if it will remove all transactions with that key, then all money will be lost until rescan ?
 598 2011-11-20 17:11:09 <sipa> no, all money will be lost
 599 2011-11-20 17:11:29 <sipa> so don't do it unless you've sent it all to another address first
 600 2011-11-20 17:11:34 <[Tycho]> So that's why it can't be used with green address.
 601 2011-11-20 17:12:30 <sipa> just keep your green address separate from everything, and when doing a green payment, send it to the green address first, and then using a second tx, to its real destination?
 602 2011-11-20 17:12:31 <[Tycho]> May be it's possible to detect totally redeemed TXes and remove them.
 603 2011-11-20 17:12:44 <sipa> [Tycho]: should be possible, indeed
 604 2011-11-20 17:12:45 p0s has joined
 605 2011-11-20 17:12:49 <[Tycho]> sipa: that's makes thing more complicated.
 606 2011-11-20 17:13:06 <sipa> i don't like green addresses as a real fixed address
 607 2011-11-20 17:13:15 <[Tycho]> Me too.
 608 2011-11-20 17:13:36 <sipa> removing completely-redeemed txs from the wallet is a better solution for you
 609 2011-11-20 17:13:57 <[Tycho]> Currently I'm sending everything at/from single address, this also helps me to detect own TXes without making strange ones.
 610 2011-11-20 17:14:05 <[Tycho]> Is there a patch for that ?
 611 2011-11-20 17:14:16 <sipa> not that i know of, but it's quite easy
 612 2011-11-20 17:14:33 <sipa> are you willing to pay for one? :)
 613 2011-11-20 17:14:49 <[Tycho]> Not yet, I want to look for myself first.
 614 2011-11-20 17:14:58 <[Tycho]> *it
 615 2011-11-20 17:15:29 <[Tycho]> This week I decided to solve all remaining bitcoind mysteries for me.
 616 2011-11-20 17:16:25 <[Tycho]> Last night it was strange TX usage, next night it should be TX accepting behaviour.
 617 2011-11-20 17:17:23 <[Tycho]> Usually I'm creating a chain of payment TXes which is confirmed at once in one block.
 618 2011-11-20 17:18:12 <[Tycho]> But if I'm restarting the bitcoind then it doesn't picks up that chain until someone else confirms the first TX of that chain.
 619 2011-11-20 17:21:25 xsteve has joined
 620 2011-11-20 17:23:06 MC1984 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 621 2011-11-20 17:23:20 MC1984 has joined
 622 2011-11-20 17:24:39 <[Tycho]> And I still don't know why it does that.
 623 2011-11-20 17:30:51 caedes has joined
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 627 2011-11-20 17:49:08 <[Tycho]> I wonder if using short keys will break some monitoring site :)
 628 2011-11-20 17:49:29 <[Tycho]> Or they were used already ?
 629 2011-11-20 17:52:26 xsteve has left ()
 630 2011-11-20 17:53:45 <sipa> not on realnet
 631 2011-11-20 17:54:21 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 632 2011-11-20 17:57:43 <[Tycho]> Is there a specific reason why generation TX doesn't uses "address" type output instead of pubkey ?
 633 2011-11-20 17:58:53 <sipa> size
 634 2011-11-20 17:59:19 <sipa> i believe originally all transaction were to-pubkey, to-address is only ued if you don't know the pubkey
 635 2011-11-20 17:59:59 riush has joined
 636 2011-11-20 18:00:12 <[Tycho]> It's strange that they don't use short key then.
 637 2011-11-20 18:00:25 <[Tycho]> Do you have a link to any short key example on the testnet ?
 638 2011-11-20 18:00:33 <sipa> ask roconnor
 639 2011-11-20 18:00:50 AStove has quit ()
 640 2011-11-20 18:00:57 <coderrr> gavinandresen, re: github, "Add ?w=1 to the URL to see the diff with whitespace ignored."
 641 2011-11-20 18:03:00 <gavinandresen> coderrr: awesome, thanks!
 642 2011-11-20 18:03:27 <gavinandresen> coderr:  does ?w=1&patience=1 work I wonder....
 643 2011-11-20 18:03:55 <coderrr> haha
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 645 2011-11-20 18:04:29 <[Tycho]> sipa: do you have any other proposals for sender identity checking without using green address ?
 646 2011-11-20 18:04:38 wolfspraul has joined
 647 2011-11-20 18:05:51 eueueue has joined
 648 2011-11-20 18:06:23 <sipa> in what context?
 649 2011-11-20 18:07:30 <[Tycho]> As with existing green address to try accepting TX without confirmation.
 650 2011-11-20 18:08:23 <[Tycho]> Found those TXes to pubkey. Really looks a bit smaller. That was unexpected, visually they are bigger :)
 651 2011-11-20 18:11:11 <sipa> [Tycho]: on the long term: out-of-band communication where the sender proves his identity using a signed message or certificate
 652 2011-11-20 18:11:23 <sipa> when sending the tx to the payee
 653 2011-11-20 18:11:35 <[Tycho]> Oh, I was talking about in-band methods :)
 654 2011-11-20 18:14:22 <[Tycho]> Using pubkeys instead of addresses only helps with input size, not outputs ?
 655 2011-11-20 18:14:45 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 656 2011-11-20 18:16:18 <sipa> i believe you shouldn't communicate through the blockchain with others you're communicating with anyway
 657 2011-11-20 18:16:59 <sipa> and compressed pubkeys help wherever a pubkey is used
 658 2011-11-20 18:17:14 <sipa> for send-to-address that is in the input, for send-to-pubkey that is in the output
 659 2011-11-20 18:17:47 <[Tycho]> Uncompressed pubkey makes bigger output that send-to addess ?
 660 2011-11-20 18:18:20 <sipa> when doing send-to-address, the output constains the address, the input the signature+pubkey
 661 2011-11-20 18:18:38 <sipa> when doing send-to-pubkey, the output contains the pubkey, the input the signature
 662 2011-11-20 18:21:35 <gavinandresen> rc7 is available for sanity testing:  https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.5.0/test/?
 663 2011-11-20 18:21:49 <[Tycho]> *than
 664 2011-11-20 18:22:23 <[Tycho]> I mean that sending to uncompressed pubkey takes more space than sending to address, right ?
 665 2011-11-20 18:22:41 <sipa> sending to address takes more space than anything
 666 2011-11-20 18:22:47 <sipa> (input and output combined)
 667 2011-11-20 18:23:16 <[Tycho]> No, I was talking about only the output because I'm thinking about my mass-sendings.
 668 2011-11-20 18:23:51 <sipa> send-to-address-of-compressed-pubkey is the same as send-to-address-of-uncompressed-pubkey
 669 2011-11-20 18:24:11 <[Tycho]> If the input is smaller then it won't help me because other party does the input, not me.
 670 2011-11-20 18:24:26 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  * [new tag]         v0.5.0rc7 -> v0.5.0rc7
 671 2011-11-20 18:24:28 <sipa> but when doing payments, you won't even know
 672 2011-11-20 18:24:35 <sipa> the address looks the same
 673 2011-11-20 18:24:58 <[Tycho]> Only my side of transaction does matters.
 674 2011-11-20 18:24:58 dissipate has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 675 2011-11-20 18:25:14 <[Tycho]> So if sending to address is smaller - it's better.
 676 2011-11-20 18:25:58 <[Tycho]> But sending change back to me may be better via those compressed pubkeys because i'm inputting it.
 677 2011-11-20 18:27:19 <Diablo-D3> heh its a [Tycho]
 678 2011-11-20 18:27:41 <[Tycho]> Where ?
 679 2011-11-20 18:28:24 <sipa> behind you
 680 2011-11-20 18:29:53 <[Tycho]> sipa: can you give me a hint to file/line in bitcoind where I can see generating compressed pubkeys ?
 681 2011-11-20 18:30:02 eueueue has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 682 2011-11-20 18:30:52 <sipa> it's not trivial, roconnor managed to get it to work
 683 2011-11-20 18:31:09 <[Tycho]> Hello, roconnor.
 684 2011-11-20 18:31:35 <sipa> and it will require some testing before we put it in mainline
 685 2011-11-20 18:31:36 <[Tycho]> So it's unusable with standard bitcoind ?
 686 2011-11-20 18:31:47 <sipa> just not implemented yet
 687 2011-11-20 18:32:05 <[Tycho]> But you said that standard clients will understand it ?
 688 2011-11-20 18:32:09 chrisb__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 689 2011-11-20 18:32:15 <[Tycho]> So only the generation is missing ?
 690 2011-11-20 18:32:24 eueueue has joined
 691 2011-11-20 18:32:25 <sipa> and saving
 692 2011-11-20 18:32:28 chrisb__ has joined
 693 2011-11-20 18:32:53 <[Tycho]> That's sad.
 694 2011-11-20 18:34:57 Workbench_ has joined
 695 2011-11-20 18:36:07 <[Tycho]> I was almost going to use it.
 696 2011-11-20 18:38:39 Workbench has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 697 2011-11-20 18:38:43 <[Tycho]> Also on the green addresses... What if 0-value input from green address is added to arbitrary TX ? Does it provides a proof ?
 698 2011-11-20 18:44:30 manifold_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 704 2011-11-20 19:02:14 kish__ is now known as kish
 705 2011-11-20 19:16:03 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen 0.4.x * r76ef6d89b98b bitcoind-stable/src/ (db.cpp db.h wallet.cpp): Never remove database files on shutdown, it caused unreadable wallets on some testers' machines.
 706 2011-11-20 19:16:04 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille 0.4.x * r36b1eb763101 bitcoind-stable/src/db.cpp: close old db when rewriting
 707 2011-11-20 19:18:42 MaxSan has joined
 708 2011-11-20 19:18:52 <MaxSan> hey guys
 709 2011-11-20 19:18:55 <MaxSan> anyone got a minute
 710 2011-11-20 19:19:47 <MaxSan> im using bitnet to communicate with network, i request a new address its asking for a_account... what is this exactly?
 711 2011-11-20 19:19:54 <MaxSan> doesnt it just, give me a new random account?
 712 2011-11-20 19:20:35 <luke-jr> wtf is bitnet
 713 2011-11-20 19:23:04 <[Tycho]> sipa: it's that ? https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/6e223c405988a1002eeeee69db88a1128a38b0a3
 714 2011-11-20 19:25:33 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * r142f498df85e gentoo/net-p2p/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Remove files no longer needed by included ebuilds
 715 2011-11-20 19:25:34 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * r0763a75f28e5 gentoo/net-p2p/ (8 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/{bitcoind,wxbitcoin}: bump to rc7
 716 2011-11-20 19:25:34 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rd681833e72e7 gentoo/net-p2p/libbitcoin/ (Manifest libbitcoin-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/libbitcoin: shorted DESCRIPTION for repoman
 717 2011-11-20 19:25:35 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * reb24252bca0f gentoo/net-p2p/ (11 files in 3 dirs): net-p2p/{bitcoin-qt,bitcoind,wxbitcoin}: bump to rc7
 718 2011-11-20 19:26:45 <MaxSan> luke-jr its a .net implementation for speaking to network
 719 2011-11-20 19:28:20 <sipa> [Tycho]: i believe it does form a proof
 720 2011-11-20 19:28:37 <[Tycho]> Or may be this one... https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/signandverif
 721 2011-11-20 19:29:17 <[Tycho]> sipa: that would be nice, no need to move real funds via green address, just add 0v input as some kind of "signature"
 722 2011-11-20 19:29:23 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 723 2011-11-20 19:30:37 <sipa> [Tycho]: signandverif is an rpc to have plaintext messages signed and verified using bitcoin keys
 724 2011-11-20 19:31:00 <[Tycho]> May be this one then ? https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/01cc526318ff9f0ee6fb675ffe3be4ca7f3cda7a
 725 2011-11-20 19:31:46 <[Tycho]> But there is "VerifyCompact", so it may be not compatible with existing bitcoind :(
 726 2011-11-20 19:33:27 <sipa> [Tycho]: what are you looking for?
 727 2011-11-20 19:34:18 <[Tycho]> [23:44] roconnor: the uncompressed form of public keys is 0x04... as you probably know.  But there is another format for keys that begins with 0x02 or 0x03 that bitcoin accepts
 728 2011-11-20 19:34:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: the 'green address' thing really ought to be solved correctly, because the mtgox 'double bounce funds' thing is going to become defacto otherwise.
 729 2011-11-20 19:35:12 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: it only accepts them for messages I think
 730 2011-11-20 19:35:42 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: i don't like bouncing, so I'm using green address for change. But my proposed method may be better.
 731 2011-11-20 19:35:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: what are double bounce funds?
 732 2011-11-20 19:35:54 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: that's sad. Are you sure ?
 733 2011-11-20 19:36:21 <sipa> [Tycho]: i never implemented a working version of compressed pubkeys
 734 2011-11-20 19:36:45 <[Tycho]> roconnor: [Tycho]: it has been supported since day 1 :)
 735 2011-11-20 19:36:52 <[Tycho]> Why does he says it then ?
 736 2011-11-20 19:37:05 <[Tycho]> [23:44] sipa: 33 byte pubkeys, instead of 65 bytes
 737 2011-11-20 19:37:05 <[Tycho]> [23:44] sipa: and they Just Work (tm)
 738 2011-11-20 19:37:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: if you want to make a X btc transaction they make two, first moving X btc to the 'green address', then X btc to you.
 739 2011-11-20 19:37:15 <[Tycho]> Or i'm completely missed th point ?
 740 2011-11-20 19:38:04 <sipa> [Tycho]: it is 'working' in the sense that it doesn't require a block chain split - the network and all clients accept them just fine
 741 2011-11-20 19:38:21 <sipa> but creating a compressed address, and spending funds from them, requires a change
 742 2011-11-20 19:38:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm not sure whether green addresses are even the way to go
 743 2011-11-20 19:39:10 <[Tycho]> Oh, that's so sad...
 744 2011-11-20 19:39:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: people like them because they're easy to understand— configure a list of trusted addresses, don't bother with any additional communications channels .. tada.
 745 2011-11-20 19:39:53 <sipa> yes, but it's ultimately putting information in the block chain that doesn't belong there
 746 2011-11-20 19:40:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: magicaltux was really negative on anything that requires an additional communication channel.
 747 2011-11-20 19:41:08 <gmaxwell> Yes, and it screws up the network anti-ddos metrics, since the back to back moves look like an attack.
 748 2011-11-20 19:41:40 <gmaxwell> And it's bad for privacy because if the addresses are well known (must to be useful) then everyone learns something about that txn.
 749 2011-11-20 19:41:44 <sipa> i'm sure the blockchain is so common now that it is considered a super-easy way of communicating
 750 2011-11-20 19:43:29 <tcatm> slush: ping
 751 2011-11-20 19:49:10 asuk has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 752 2011-11-20 19:51:59 <[Tycho]> Why source address shouldn't belong to blockchain ?
 753 2011-11-20 19:52:11 <slush> tcatm: yep
 754 2011-11-20 19:52:18 <slush> tcatm: that 503 bug?
 755 2011-11-20 19:52:21 <[Tycho]> Back-to-back moving is really wrong.
 756 2011-11-20 19:52:22 sli908 has joined
 757 2011-11-20 19:52:50 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 758 2011-11-20 19:53:01 <tcatm> slush: yes. it's not a bug. it's the rate limiting feature enforcing 1req/15min
 759 2011-11-20 19:53:04 sli908 has left ()
 760 2011-11-20 19:53:15 <tcatm> (actually, it's a lot less strict)
 761 2011-11-20 19:53:30 <slush> tcatm: 1req/15min per IP?
 762 2011-11-20 19:53:40 * slush thinking about using Tor with sierrachart feed ;)
 763 2011-11-20 19:54:24 <tcatm> yes, per IP
 764 2011-11-20 19:54:43 <slush> tcatm: firstly, you should customize that page and explain it
 765 2011-11-20 19:55:20 <slush> tcatm: then, I don't think that those requests are so database expensive if done properly to throttle them in such way, but it's your choice, of course
 766 2011-11-20 19:55:33 AStove has joined
 767 2011-11-20 19:56:04 <tcatm> there's a telnet interface for realtime updates
 768 2011-11-20 19:56:15 <tcatm> so ideally you'd only query trades.csv a few times per day
 769 2011-11-20 19:56:44 <slush> tcatm: is it still using polling to mtgox?
 770 2011-11-20 19:56:53 <tcatm> yes
 771 2011-11-20 19:56:57 <slush> :(
 772 2011-11-20 19:57:08 <tcatm> with 10s delay
 773 2011-11-20 19:57:27 <slush> ok, I should reimplement that. Originally I used that csv just for historical download, but I cannot get mtgox websocket working
 774 2011-11-20 19:57:41 <[Tycho]> Hmm, sending to pubkey is 20% bigger :(
 775 2011-11-20 19:58:32 <tcatm> If you use trades.csv for historical download and connect to the websocket you should be fine.
 776 2011-11-20 19:58:41 <tcatm> you could even get realtime orderbook updates from the socket
 777 2011-11-20 19:59:23 <slush> tcatm: you mean that telnet interface, right?
 778 2011-11-20 19:59:27 <tcatm> yes
 779 2011-11-20 19:59:42 <slush> what's the port?
 780 2011-11-20 19:59:48 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r5bc4f10c0cce gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (Manifest bitcoind-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoind: adapt 9999 to EAPI 4 correctly
 781 2011-11-20 19:59:52 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * re6c1c6e34d10 gentoo/net-p2p/ (19 files in 3 dirs): net-p2p/{bitcoin-qt,bitcoind,wxbitcoin}: some suggestions from Markos Chandras
 782 2011-11-20 20:00:18 <tcatm> either 27007 (ticks only) or 8001 (websocket) / 8002 (telnet, orderbook and other stuff)
 783 2011-11-20 20:00:24 <[Tycho]> Hmm, but receiving+sending to pubkey is 10% better
 784 2011-11-20 20:01:51 <[Tycho]> So it's better to send to myself with pubkey and to others with address.
 785 2011-11-20 20:02:01 TheZimm has joined
 786 2011-11-20 20:05:53 <coblee> can anyone help me with transaction spam?
 787 2011-11-20 20:07:03 <[Tycho]> No, spamming is bad.
 788 2011-11-20 20:07:47 <coblee> i don't want to spam. i won't to prevent it in litecoin
 789 2011-11-20 20:07:48 <MaxSan> haha
 790 2011-11-20 20:08:06 <[Tycho]> Is litecoin your creation ?
 791 2011-11-20 20:08:08 <MaxSan> gun to the head would stop whoever it is
 792 2011-11-20 20:08:20 <coblee> right now, bitcoin's priority is # coins * 144 /  250
 793 2011-11-20 20:08:24 <coblee> [Tycho]: yes
 794 2011-11-20 20:08:42 <[Tycho]> Ok.
 795 2011-11-20 20:08:44 <coblee> so if anything is greater than that priority cutoff, you don't need a fee
 796 2011-11-20 20:08:58 <gmaxwell> MaxSan: god! don't suggest that. They'll probably mob me because I proposed drastically increasing litecoin's txn anti-dos fees right before it started.
 797 2011-11-20 20:09:01 <coblee> what's to prevent someone from sending 145 btc to himself for free?
 798 2011-11-20 20:09:41 <[Tycho]> Why shouldn't he send 145 btc to himself for free ?
 799 2011-11-20 20:09:50 <[Tycho]> At least once.
 800 2011-11-20 20:10:00 <coblee> that's what the spammer is doing... flooding the network with those transactions
 801 2011-11-20 20:10:17 <gmaxwell> coblee: ... the formula is  sum(confirms * value) / size
 802 2011-11-20 20:10:41 <gmaxwell> coblee: so you get one txn per reseting coin day.
 803 2011-11-20 20:10:46 <coblee> since even if the coins are 1 block old, 145 coins * 1 confirm / ~225 size > the priority threshold
 804 2011-11-20 20:10:47 <gmaxwell> er resting.
 805 2011-11-20 20:10:51 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: what is your project ?
 806 2011-11-20 20:11:38 <gmaxwell> coblee: the need to use 145 coins (couple hundred bucks) in the attack
 807 2011-11-20 20:12:29 <gmaxwell> coblee: thats why I through the factor of 100 in the patch I posted! (though I admit, 100 is probably a bit too high)
 808 2011-11-20 20:12:36 <luke-jr> coblee: why you create a scamcoin?
 809 2011-11-20 20:12:39 <coblee> it's much cheaper in litecoin, but still. the same attack would work on bitcoin, right?
 810 2011-11-20 20:12:58 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: no project, in a half-serious-half-joking proposal on the forum I suggested litecoin crank their txn fees.
 811 2011-11-20 20:13:32 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: I'm asking not about litecoin, but your development at all.
 812 2011-11-20 20:13:46 <gmaxwell> coblee: yes, the free shouldn't be what kills you.. the size of the free area should keep free txn from being too terrible in any case.
 813 2011-11-20 20:14:22 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: I mostly work on things unrelated to bitcoin, multimedia codec stuff.
 814 2011-11-20 20:14:33 <[Tycho]> Ok.
 815 2011-11-20 20:14:44 <coblee> http://explorer.liteco.in/block/791d27b3acc84addefa73b59c2ec10eebd1f2fb4bc4c8aedae9a8f25f76eefd8
 816 2011-11-20 20:15:29 <gmaxwell> coblee: thats not especially bloating at least.
 817 2011-11-20 20:15:33 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * raf839ed810f1 gentoo/net-p2p/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into maintree
 818 2011-11-20 20:15:58 <coblee> gmaxwell: about 1.5 mb a day. not too bad. but just annoying, you know?
 819 2011-11-20 20:16:45 <[Tycho]> Wow, I did it in just a couple of days :) http://blockexplorer.com/address/1VayNert3x1KzbpzMGt2qdqrAThiRovi8
 820 2011-11-20 20:17:38 <[Tycho]> Why blockchain.info fails so often...
 821 2011-11-20 20:18:33 rdponticelli_ has joined
 822 2011-11-20 20:18:49 <gmaxwell> coblee: hmph does the priority really allow zero confirm to be zero fee? I think thats a bug.
 823 2011-11-20 20:19:03 <coblee> gmaxwell: 1 confirm i believe
 824 2011-11-20 20:19:06 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 825 2011-11-20 20:19:25 <gmaxwell> right but this block is spending 0 confirms.
 826 2011-11-20 20:19:48 <gmaxwell> Which means its a modified miner, no?
 827 2011-11-20 20:19:52 chrisb__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 828 2011-11-20 20:21:14 <coblee> i don't think it's spending 0 confirms
 829 2011-11-20 20:21:51 <coblee> so free transaction area is 27000 bytes, right? so the guy is just maxing that per block
 830 2011-11-20 20:23:27 <gmaxwell> coblee: if you look at the block the output from each txn is just an input to another txn.
 831 2011-11-20 20:23:45 eueueue has joined
 832 2011-11-20 20:23:59 <coblee> yes, but if you look at the actual address, you will see that there's coins in there
 833 2011-11-20 20:23:59 <coblee> s
 834 2011-11-20 20:23:59 <coblee> o
 835 2011-11-20 20:24:11 <coblee> so it's using those older coins in that transaction
 836 2011-11-20 20:24:18 <coblee> but refilling them right away
 837 2011-11-20 20:24:25 <coblee> so just sending coins to each other
 838 2011-11-20 20:24:38 <gmaxwell> ahhh
 839 2011-11-20 20:24:38 <gmaxwell> oky.
 840 2011-11-20 20:25:40 asuk has joined
 841 2011-11-20 20:25:53 <gmaxwell> well, damn, if you have attackers with >6000 coins.. I don't see any way to prevent that without burdening small transactions.
 842 2011-11-20 20:27:19 <coblee> i could limit the size of the free transaction area. since litecoin produces 4x as many blocks as bitcoin a day, this attack will bloat the chain 4x as fast. so i can do 1/4 the free transaction area
 843 2011-11-20 20:27:43 <CIA-89> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rbf7a4b4 / lib/scriptinterpreter.js : Errors during verification should count as an invalid signature. - http://git.io/XQ3SMg
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 846 2011-11-20 20:31:39 <roconnor> [Tycho]: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/8a59d89496b8c0eef5ad7c3ed4b966a7e696fba0f0592cfa3736384e7a4a68b7#o0
 847 2011-11-20 20:31:45 chrisb__ has joined
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 849 2011-11-20 20:32:34 <roconnor> [Tycho]: that is my compressed public key test transaction
 850 2011-11-20 20:33:11 <[Tycho]> Are you sure it's compressed ?
 851 2011-11-20 20:33:18 <[Tycho]> Can't see any difference yet
 852 2011-11-20 20:33:41 <roconnor> 02a32efde012298e69e3601eb94fceb84c900efecdca8abc6a46f20a810acf18b7 is much shorter than the typical public key
 853 2011-11-20 20:33:44 disq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 854 2011-11-20 20:34:00 <roconnor> 04e22790e6ce548e26e2b69dac9627c20df544163679c5a7f371daceccd1169455f7fa2685650f01dd45bd3d53789d08b0a6541158b399aeadd744150366a635ac is a typical public key
 855 2011-11-20 20:34:48 <[Tycho]> So where is that 02a32 ?
 856 2011-11-20 20:35:04 <sipa> roconnor: i have a patch for bitcoind for compressed pubkeys
 857 2011-11-20 20:35:07 * sipa goes testing
 858 2011-11-20 20:35:28 <roconnor> [Tycho]: in the script sig for that transacation
 859 2011-11-20 20:35:37 <roconnor> second line
 860 2011-11-20 20:35:56 <roconnor> ah oops
 861 2011-11-20 20:35:58 <roconnor> [Tycho]: sorry
 862 2011-11-20 20:36:02 <roconnor> I pasted the wrong link accidentally
 863 2011-11-20 20:36:07 <roconnor> no wonder you are confused
 864 2011-11-20 20:36:24 <roconnor> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/48ce0ba13b087f3712cdc354db918436aeeca60596ac7c54572c8c1b9a8b5ba4
 865 2011-11-20 20:36:30 <roconnor> [Tycho]: there you go
 866 2011-11-20 20:36:35 <roconnor> sorry about that
 867 2011-11-20 20:36:59 <[Tycho]> sipa: I was thinking that it's really supported by standart clients. But otherwise I don't know how it can be useful.
 868 2011-11-20 20:37:27 <sipa> [Tycho]: sending to a compressed pubkey, and relaying is supported without patch
 869 2011-11-20 20:37:35 <sipa> receiving does
 870 2011-11-20 20:37:42 <roconnor> [Tycho]: compressed and uncompressed keys have different hashs, so they cannot quite be used interchangably :(
 871 2011-11-20 20:39:36 <[Tycho]> So if I send to a compressed pubkey of my user - will he be able to redeem it ?
 872 2011-11-20 20:40:09 <roconnor> sipa would be better to answer that
 873 2011-11-20 20:40:51 <sipa> [Tycho]: you won't get the hash of compressed pubkey, unless the client he used supports compressed pubkeys
 874 2011-11-20 20:41:07 <sipa> anyone want to send some testnet keys to mv2GiWB3fcKEPCP4AyShAKNjZBAveMQCLu ?
 875 2011-11-20 20:41:26 <sipa> /s/keys/coins/
 876 2011-11-20 20:41:32 <roconnor> sipa: sure
 877 2011-11-20 20:42:13 <sipa> (wait a bit, still catching up with block chain)
 878 2011-11-20 20:43:55 <[Tycho]> sipa: so there is no use for it :(
 879 2011-11-20 20:44:23 Daviey has left ()
 880 2011-11-20 20:44:28 <sipa> [Tycho]: how so?
 881 2011-11-20 20:44:39 disq has joined
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 883 2011-11-20 20:44:39 disq has joined
 884 2011-11-20 20:45:12 <[Tycho]> sipa: if I can't send coins using those compressed pubkeys - how can it be useful ?
 885 2011-11-20 20:45:13 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
 886 2011-11-20 20:45:36 <roconnor> sipa: if [Tycho] sends to a public key rather than an address, hashes are not involved.
 887 2011-11-20 20:46:30 <sipa> i'm not following
 888 2011-11-20 20:46:34 <sipa> what do you want to use them form?
 889 2011-11-20 20:46:35 <[Tycho]> roconnor: so you can send to anyone in main chain and they will be able to validate or redeem coins ?
 890 2011-11-20 20:47:36 <roconnor> [Tycho]: Well, I don't know if the standard client will identify them ... I fear you are right and they won't making compressed keys useless.
 891 2011-11-20 20:47:59 <roconnor> *and they won't, thus making compressed keys useless.
 892 2011-11-20 20:48:41 <[Tycho]> Thanks.
 893 2011-11-20 20:48:46 <roconnor> sipa: [Tycho] has a lot of coins to send to people, and he wants to make his transactions as small as possible
 894 2011-11-20 20:48:55 Sedra- has joined
 895 2011-11-20 20:49:13 <[Tycho]> Today I made my transactions 10% smaller ^)
 896 2011-11-20 20:49:18 <roconnor> sipa: but if the standard bitcoin client won't recognise compressed keys (even though they are legal) then his users will be quite unhappy.
 897 2011-11-20 20:49:29 <sipa> for sending, send-to-address is smaller than send-to-pubkey, so he should use that
 898 2011-11-20 20:50:00 <roconnor> sipa: oh, even with all the extra commands? ... I guess you are right
 899 2011-11-20 20:50:35 <roconnor> [Tycho]: right, addresses are even more compressed than compressed keys
 900 2011-11-20 20:50:42 dan__ has joined
 901 2011-11-20 20:50:51 <gavinandresen> I think the optimal would be for coinbase generation transactions to pay to a compressed pubkey, then you use regular send-to-address transactions spending those.
 902 2011-11-20 20:50:57 <[Tycho]> Now I'm sending to my pubkey and it's a bit better because needs less bytes to redeem.
 903 2011-11-20 20:51:16 <gavinandresen> ... with change going to the same compressed pubkey....
 904 2011-11-20 20:51:31 <gavinandresen> ... and all the sends done as sendmanys
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 906 2011-11-20 20:52:05 <[Tycho]> Yes, sendmany should make a difference, but that would require more work to implement.
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 911 2011-11-20 21:08:38 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r459d3fb / doc/assets-attribution.txt : relicense my own images as MIT - http://git.io/9ZpGzg
 912 2011-11-20 21:09:20 <sipa> roconnor: ok, can you send some coins to mwUyUCWRp9WqyNgrGAbghs7KjTL8zjFNKN ?
 913 2011-11-20 21:09:49 <sipa> (or someone else?)
 914 2011-11-20 21:13:56 dan__ has joined
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 919 2011-11-20 21:16:22 <roconnor> sipa: done
 920 2011-11-20 21:16:36 <roconnor> sipa: It has 1 confirmation
 921 2011-11-20 21:16:40 <roconnor> ah no
 922 2011-11-20 21:16:46 <roconnor> you changed addresses on me
 923 2011-11-20 21:16:51 <roconnor> I'll send you some more
 924 2011-11-20 21:17:10 karnac has joined
 925 2011-11-20 21:17:23 <sipa> roconnor: i got some from the faucet
 926 2011-11-20 21:18:45 dvide has joined
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 928 2011-11-20 21:21:46 <sipa> hmm, i guess i'll have to wait until someone mines on testnet
 929 2011-11-20 21:24:18 MC1984 has joined
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 931 2011-11-20 21:24:49 <sipa> roconnor: nice tx amount :)
 932 2011-11-20 21:25:13 <roconnor> oh you got one?
 933 2011-11-20 21:26:01 <sipa> i assume tx b525bc669742ccb10cace5a129b54583b869efbad19388c66a3744da3c4e49ba is from you?
 934 2011-11-20 21:27:42 <roconnor> the 2.71828183 valued transactions are from me
 935 2011-11-20 21:27:54 <roconnor> + 0.01 tx fee
 936 2011-11-20 21:28:20 <roconnor> (and random version number)
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 939 2011-11-20 21:43:51 <luke-jr> someone tell Wladimir there's a debian file too
 940 2011-11-20 21:45:56 <sipa> wumpus: luke-jr asks to yell you that there's a debian file too
 941 2011-11-20 21:46:28 denisx has joined
 942 2011-11-20 21:48:19 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/646
 943 2011-11-20 21:49:24 <sipa> my cpu does 0.2 MH/s
 944 2011-11-20 21:49:26 <sipa> :(
 945 2011-11-20 21:49:33 <luke-jr> lol
 946 2011-11-20 21:49:45 <sipa> pentium M 1.6 GHz
 947 2011-11-20 21:50:10 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 948 2011-11-20 21:50:37 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rf0c37a056aa7 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (Manifest bitcoin-qt-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt: CCPL-Attribution-3.0 exterminated
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 956 2011-11-20 22:07:25 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 2800 66.57
 957 2011-11-20 22:07:26 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2800 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 66.57, is 1 day, 4 hours, 21 minutes, and 52 seconds
 958 2011-11-20 22:07:29 <sipa> :(
 959 2011-11-20 22:07:56 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 960 2011-11-20 22:11:16 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
 961 2011-11-20 22:11:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 154134 | Current Difficulty: 1192497.7500895 | Next Difficulty At Block: 155231 | Next Difficulty In: 1097 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 21 hours, 50 minutes, and 31 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1149517.24290212 | Estimated Percent Change: -3.60424220379
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 966 2011-11-20 22:16:55 <roconnor> sipa: I would expect a testnet block to be mined within the next hour or so
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 968 2011-11-20 22:17:40 <roconnor> sipa: though there have been 2 blocks mined since I sent testcoins to mwUyU...
 969 2011-11-20 22:17:52 <sipa> i noticed, but they aren't included
 970 2011-11-20 22:17:58 <roconnor> ya :(
 971 2011-11-20 22:18:15 <sipa> my 2.6 MH/s miner won't help much :)
 972 2011-11-20 22:18:19 <roconnor> but my send to mv2Gi... worked
 973 2011-11-20 22:21:26 <sipa> strange
 974 2011-11-20 22:23:03 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
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 976 2011-11-20 22:29:05 <sipa> got it!
 977 2011-11-20 22:32:27 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 978 2011-11-20 22:33:59 <roconnor> sipa: horray
 979 2011-11-20 22:34:14 <sipa> now wait for the next ones that contains spends...
 980 2011-11-20 22:34:22 <sipa> to both compressed and uncompressed keys
 981 2011-11-20 22:34:22 <roconnor> :)
 982 2011-11-20 22:34:36 <roconnor> sipa: for the same public key?
 983 2011-11-20 22:34:39 <sipa> no
 984 2011-11-20 22:34:46 <roconnor> :/
 985 2011-11-20 22:34:51 <sipa> i keep them strictly separated
 986 2011-11-20 22:35:13 <sipa> otherwise you have two pubkeys and two addresses for the same private key
 987 2011-11-20 22:35:26 <sipa> will lead to confusion i fear
 988 2011-11-20 22:35:47 <sipa> now it is just decided at generation time whether it's a compressed or noncompressed one, and saved as such
 989 2011-11-20 22:38:55 <roconnor> sipa: let me know if you ever design a bitcoin clone.
 990 2011-11-20 22:39:40 wasabi has joined
 991 2011-11-20 22:39:41 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
 992 2011-11-20 22:40:01 <sipa> roconnor: why?
 993 2011-11-20 22:40:10 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 994 2011-11-20 22:40:28 <roconnor> I like your scripting primintives
 995 2011-11-20 22:40:35 MaxSan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 996 2011-11-20 22:40:51 <roconnor> You'd probably be more careful about key and signature encoding
 997 2011-11-20 22:40:54 <roconnor> etc.
 998 2011-11-20 22:41:01 <sipa> haha - i sure hope i have something to say when bitcoin 2.0 is designed :)
 999 2011-11-20 22:41:49 wasabi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1000 2011-11-20 22:41:51 <roconnor> I'd be nice to design a scripting language with some space/time guarentees as opposed to ad hoc limitations
1001 2011-11-20 22:41:56 <roconnor> *it'd
1002 2011-11-20 22:41:56 <luke-jr> once there's a sane codebase to work from, we should start a 2.0 branch testnet :p
1003 2011-11-20 22:42:41 <sipa> roconnor: absolutely
1004 2011-11-20 22:42:45 <sipa> the limits are horrible
1005 2011-11-20 22:43:17 <sipa> what about using a lambda-calculus derived scripting language? ;)
1006 2011-11-20 22:43:24 <roconnor> sipa: hah
1007 2011-11-20 22:43:33 <roconnor> sipa: linear-lambda calculus maybe :D
1008 2011-11-20 22:43:35 <luke-jr> just embed Perl
1009 2011-11-20 22:43:35 random_cat has joined
1010 2011-11-20 22:43:56 <gmaxwell> recursion (without iterations) makes for nice explicit time/space limits. ;)
1011 2011-11-20 22:44:02 <luke-jr> in fact, nevermind OP_EVAL. let's replace it with OP_PERL
1012 2011-11-20 22:44:04 <roconnor> sipa: I'd aim for a linear space & linear time in the lenght (in bits) of the script; perferably with some reasonable constants
1013 2011-11-20 22:44:31 <sipa> so, rather low level operations?
1014 2011-11-20 22:44:39 <sipa> like assembly
1015 2011-11-20 22:44:59 <luke-jr> MIPS emulator?
1016 2011-11-20 22:45:21 <roconnor> sipa: doesn't necessarily have to be low-level.
1017 2011-11-20 22:45:26 <roconnor> but that would be one way
1018 2011-11-20 22:45:31 <sipa> what about just putting java bytecode there, encoded in xml?
1019 2011-11-20 22:45:37 <sipa> no need for custom interpreters!
1020 2011-11-20 22:45:45 <copumpkin> recursion ftw
1021 2011-11-20 22:45:48 <copumpkin> corecursion is the devil
1022 2011-11-20 22:45:57 <roconnor> sipa: luke-jr: do either of you have any opinion about http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/876/how-much-will-transaction-fees-eventually-be/895#895
1023 2011-11-20 22:46:01 <gmaxwell> I think the high level operations are useful though, because it makes it possible to optimize them and because they're very space compact.
1024 2011-11-20 22:46:08 <luke-jr> sipa: Java is too custom
1025 2011-11-20 22:46:18 <sipa> luke-jr: i hope i didn't sound serious
1026 2011-11-20 22:46:18 <roconnor> ie about whether markets weill find equilibrium for tx fees in absence of mining rewards
1027 2011-11-20 22:46:35 kish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1028 2011-11-20 22:46:38 <sipa> roconnor: i don't dare to say anything about that
1029 2011-11-20 22:46:43 kish has joined
1030 2011-11-20 22:46:57 <luke-jr> roconnor: logically speaking, I expect the fees will be the difference in cost of mining
1031 2011-11-20 22:47:01 <roconnor> I find it a bit scary that the dynamics of bitcoins processing can potentially change severly in the future after "everyone is using it"
1032 2011-11-20 22:47:04 <luke-jr> ie, between ASIC miners and GPU miners
1033 2011-11-20 22:47:27 <gmaxwell> roconnor: well, thats reality.
1034 2011-11-20 22:47:30 <sipa> aargh someone mine!
1035 2011-11-20 22:47:34 <luke-jr> there are already a lot of professional GPU miners, and they won't want to turn off their miners
1036 2011-11-20 22:47:46 <luke-jr> therefore, they will charge fees to compensate for difficulty being higher
1037 2011-11-20 22:47:50 <gmaxwell> roconnor: you can't design a system where the realities around using it can't change in the future.
1038 2011-11-20 22:48:00 <luke-jr> whereas the ASIC miners will push difficulty higher than GPU can profit on reward alone
1039 2011-11-20 22:48:22 eueueue has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1040 2011-11-20 22:48:27 kish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1041 2011-11-20 22:48:29 <sipa> but as a miner, why would you not include any non-feeless transactions?
1042 2011-11-20 22:48:31 <sipa> lost income
1043 2011-11-20 22:48:43 <gmaxwell> Because you hit the maximum block size.
1044 2011-11-20 22:48:51 <sipa> yes, you have a cost to remain in business, and if those fees don't pay for it, you'll go out of businnes
1045 2011-11-20 22:48:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: i was assuming no block limits
1046 2011-11-20 22:49:08 <luke-jr> sipa: why mine at all, until there's transaction fees enough to cover your costs?
1047 2011-11-20 22:49:22 <sipa> luke-jr: because you were mining already
1048 2011-11-20 22:49:28 <luke-jr> sipa: mining costs money
1049 2011-11-20 22:49:37 <sipa> sure, and at some point it may be worth it
1050 2011-11-20 22:49:50 <luke-jr> I expect to see at least some GPU miners start mining only when their blocks have enough txn fees to compensate.
1051 2011-11-20 22:49:59 <sipa> that's possible indeed
1052 2011-11-20 22:50:05 <roconnor> but there is this crazy feedback mechanism where when people stop mining then you are more likely to be successfull mining
1053 2011-11-20 22:50:21 <roconnor> and it is totally unexpored what will happen without minting bonuses
1054 2011-11-20 22:50:25 <roconnor> *unexplored
1055 2011-11-20 22:51:44 kish has joined
1056 2011-11-20 22:53:47 <roconnor> We might get wild and unstable swings in difficulty?
1057 2011-11-20 22:53:48 <roconnor> who knows?
1058 2011-11-20 22:56:39 <roconnor> gmaxwell: didn't someone say that the blocksize limit needs to be raised to deal with visa volumed transactions?
1059 2011-11-20 22:57:07 <gmaxwell> Yes, but I think thats moronic.
1060 2011-11-20 22:57:11 <gmaxwell> (sorry)
1061 2011-11-20 22:57:21 <sipa> bitcoin is not a transaction processor
1062 2011-11-20 22:57:27 <sipa> it is a digital backing currency
1063 2011-11-20 22:57:31 <gmaxwell> The bitcoin blockchain is not a replacement for visa.
1064 2011-11-20 22:57:35 <gmaxwell> Right what sipa said.
1065 2011-11-20 22:57:56 <sipa> since it's already digital, building electronic payment processors on top of it, should prove to be easy
1066 2011-11-20 22:58:01 <gmaxwell> The fact that you can even _think_ about bitcoin replacing a large transaction processor shows how flexible bitcoin is, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
1067 2011-11-20 22:58:40 <roconnor> gmaxwell: so you are imagining something like bitcoin backing various "banks" implementing something like OT?
1068 2011-11-20 22:58:55 <sipa> roconnor: exactly
1069 2011-11-20 22:59:05 <roconnor> and the chain is used almost entirely for something like end of day inter-"bank" transfers
1070 2011-11-20 22:59:12 <roconnor> (maybe not necessarily end-of-day)
1071 2011-11-20 22:59:19 <sipa> more than that, i assume
1072 2011-11-20 22:59:30 <gmaxwell> I look at bitcoin as replacing large instruments, — checks and wire tranfers, sacks of gold bars. ... while other things which use bitcoin as their unit of exchange (ripple, OT, traditional banks) handle high volume, low value transactions.
1073 2011-11-20 22:59:57 <gmaxwell> Yea, not even end of day.. settle once an hour if you like.
1074 2011-11-20 23:00:47 <gmaxwell> the fact that you _can_ use bitcoin as a transaction processor sets a value floor for all those other things.
1075 2011-11-20 23:01:02 dan__ has quit (Quit: dan__)
1076 2011-11-20 23:06:26 <gmaxwell> Really, someone should nuke that scalablity page on the bitcoin wiki. It makes bitcoin as everyone's transaction processor look like a consensus end game, and it's such an easily defeated strawman.
1077 2011-11-20 23:06:52 <gmaxwell> If I'd seen that page early on in my involvement with bitcoin I would have concluded that bitcoin was for crazy people.
1078 2011-11-20 23:06:55 <gmaxwell> :)
1079 2011-11-20 23:07:11 <roconnor> Um ...
1080 2011-11-20 23:07:15 <roconnor> :P
1081 2011-11-20 23:08:42 <gmaxwell> I wrote a preface to it saying that it was just one possible way of growing bitcoin to the wider world but Mike Hearn deleted it. :-/
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1084 2011-11-20 23:14:19 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: put it back then
1085 2011-11-20 23:14:26 <copumpkin> tell him to fuck off
1086 2011-11-20 23:14:43 <gmaxwell> meh, I'm long winded and don't want to get into an argument. His analysis is good for what it is.
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1088 2011-11-20 23:16:10 <gmaxwell> I'm just opposed to the bitcoin mypoia— the fact that we pretend that bitcoin itself is actually good for POS, and we hide the lie of that with scaling arguments like the visa ones.  Thats silly, bitcoin isn't good for all things, can't be good for all things, and doesn't need to be good for all things.
1089 2011-11-20 23:17:17 <copumpkin> yeah
1090 2011-11-20 23:17:48 <roconnor> gmaxwell: someone needs to tell all the people making POS terminals
1091 2011-11-20 23:18:18 * roconnor needs to install OT sometime
1092 2011-11-20 23:18:35 <gmaxwell> Well, I'm not saying they shouldn't — we used checks and, back in the days of carbons, credit cards at POS too. Though they're not great for that.
1093 2011-11-20 23:20:02 <gmaxwell> It's fine to build these things, and they'll be useful in some contexts. But they aren't a good alternative to visa.
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1100 2011-11-20 23:27:28 <Edward_Black> To be honest, sipa, I doubt bitcoin could become currency proper, and it definitely is not a currency at this moment
1101 2011-11-20 23:27:55 <luke-jr> Edward_Black: if it couldn't, it'd be just a pyramid scheme
1102 2011-11-20 23:28:24 <Edward_Black> I think there are interesting places between "pyramid scheme" and "currency"
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1104 2011-11-20 23:28:51 <Edward_Black> gold, for instance, is not a currency (and contrary to a peculiar creed of goldbugs, never was)
1105 2011-11-20 23:29:04 <Edward_Black> neither are diamonds or oil
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1107 2011-11-20 23:29:24 <Edward_Black> Bitcoin could operate very well as an exotic digital speculative commodity
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1109 2011-11-20 23:30:56 <gmaxwell> Edward_Black: You're drawing a nice little defintional box around "currency".
1110 2011-11-20 23:31:05 <gmaxwell> The world doesn't actually care about your definitions.
1111 2011-11-20 23:31:11 <luke-jr> :P
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1113 2011-11-20 23:31:36 <Edward_Black> Well, we can define currency as "anything that two or more agents have agreed to use a medium of exchange"
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1116 2011-11-20 23:32:10 <gmaxwell> Yes, or use the word "money" for than instead of currency... and then use the word money instead?
1117 2011-11-20 23:32:53 <gmaxwell> I doubt I disagree with you on any of the facts— I just don't think it matters if bitcoin is "currency" under some definition or another to anyone but economists. :)
1118 2011-11-20 23:34:48 <Edward_Black> 1) it is not me who insists on calling it a "currency" 2) word money would be better since technically, any artifact used to mediate exchanges of any kind in a manner that avoids direct barter can be called money, even if that article is bird feathers
1119 2011-11-20 23:35:17 <Edward_Black> However, it seems to me that it is somewhat foolhardy to ignore the realities of BTC's trading behavior
1120 2011-11-20 23:35:56 <gmaxwell> So the general public conflates the uses of the words, and there is in fact no law that gives domain specialists naming rights over the terms they use. :)
1121 2011-11-20 23:36:42 <Edward_Black> I think that general public is quite abscent in bitcoin-dev
1122 2011-11-20 23:37:06 <gmaxwell> As far as the trading behavior, .. it is what it is.. but bitcoin has what? at most 100k users today? The trading behavior under these conditions has no predictive power against a bitcoin more widely used.
1123 2011-11-20 23:37:49 <gmaxwell> Edward_Black: yes, but it's proper for the bitcoin community to call it a currency, using the language of the general public that they're speaking to.
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1125 2011-11-20 23:38:06 <gmaxwell> Small minds argue definitions, in any case. ;)
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1127 2011-11-20 23:38:58 <Edward_Black> gmaxwell definitions are important, since they allow us to differentiate between objects during communication sessions in abscence of telepathy
1128 2011-11-20 23:39:14 <Edward_Black> little petty tweaks can make all the difference in the world
1129 2011-11-20 23:39:18 <gmaxwell> Of course, there isn't any reason to assume bitcoin will become much more widely used—  but I think that single fact is more financially significant than the character of the trading by far.
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1131 2011-11-20 23:40:13 <gmaxwell> Edward_Black: sure, but — then for the ease of communication when anyone involved in bitcoin (as well as most of the general public) uses the word 'currency' I believe they mean something more like 'popular money' than some other definition of currency.
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1133 2011-11-20 23:40:31 <Edward_Black> I generally don't see a particular reason why it should assume trading characteristic of a currency and lose traits associated with speculative goods as adoption grows
1134 2011-11-20 23:40:34 <Edward_Black> In fact
1135 2011-11-20 23:40:39 <Edward_Black> I can not recall a single case
1136 2011-11-20 23:40:41 <Edward_Black> of that happening
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1138 2011-11-20 23:41:50 <gmaxwell> I suspect you're not being mindful of what people are speculating over in the case of bitcoin.
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1140 2011-11-20 23:42:20 <gmaxwell> For something like oil — people speculate over the future supply, demand, and mood of the people that have control of the supply.
1141 2011-11-20 23:42:53 <gmaxwell> In the case of bitcoin, people are speculating over it's long term future adoption as a money like thing.
1142 2011-11-20 23:43:20 <gmaxwell> Otherwise they're just speculating to speculate, which is a state which doesn't have a future. (and perhaps maybe most of the traders are doing that today)
1143 2011-11-20 23:44:56 <Edward_Black> I doubt majority of market speculants care for a timeframe longer than 3 mo, though if I wanted to risk a seizable sum on BTC, I would speculate as to its value after first subsidy cut (I have an inking of an idea, thanks to King CoinHunter and his Soidcoin, who kindly provided me witha live demo of a subsidy cut)
1144 2011-11-20 23:45:04 <Eliel> that's also called short term speculation, no? speculating to speculate.
1145 2011-11-20 23:45:09 <Eliel> umm, short term trading.
1146 2011-11-20 23:45:14 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin has all the technical properties which could make it an excellent broadly used money (directly and/or via proxies). Moreso than e.g. gold. So speculating that it will have that use in the future isn't crazy.
1147 2011-11-20 23:45:50 <gmaxwell> Eliel: yes, and if there is _nothing but that_ you have pretty impressive results, because the system should at some point enter pure feedback and pop.
1148 2011-11-20 23:46:05 <phantomcircuit> http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=31:3.1.6.1.2.1.3.1&idno=31
1149 2011-11-20 23:46:08 <phantomcircuit> section (ff)
1150 2011-11-20 23:46:14 <phantomcircuit> so i tried to read that
1151 2011-11-20 23:46:15 <Edward_Black> Now that I think of it, "non-legal-tender" popular money are more like speculative goods than proper currencies (USD style) anyways
1152 2011-11-20 23:46:18 <phantomcircuit> but they have no indentation
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1154 2011-11-20 23:47:08 * sipa should have used testnet-in-a-box
1155 2011-11-20 23:48:21 <Edward_Black> gmaxwell I think you have an over-optimistic view of us "market people" :~)
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1157 2011-11-20 23:48:55 <gmaxwell> Edward_Black: legal tender status (in the US) is a pretty narrow value, have you ever personally been involved in a transaction where it matters other than the payment of taxes?  (e.g. have you been sued or sued someone? Because in just about all other contexts you could contract for some other form of payment if you wished)
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1159 2011-11-20 23:49:54 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, contracts payable in some specific asset can almost always be paid in the market value in USD
1160 2011-11-20 23:50:01 <phantomcircuit> regardless of what the contract stipulates
1161 2011-11-20 23:50:26 <luke-jr> neuCore.setMessage("Please enable Javascript to use this feature.", "red"); <-- wtf?
1162 2011-11-20 23:51:45 <Edward_Black> gmaxwell I have never dealt with legal contracts that involved denomination in...um....payment instruments not directly backed by a state or a state-recognized financial framework, and generally do my best to even avoid the latter unless I am very confident in the mechanics and legalities of the instrument
1163 2011-11-20 23:51:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you can breach and then recover the damages of the breech in USD, or shortcome that eventual outcome, not quite the same. (esp when recieving USD isn't the same for you as the contracted good— e.g. if the contracted good isn't generally available)
1164 2011-11-20 23:52:30 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yes of course it depends on whether the contract specifies damages for breech
1165 2011-11-20 23:52:43 <phantomcircuit> but in general any contract can be settled using nothing but USD
1166 2011-11-20 23:52:48 <phantomcircuit> it's merely a question of how much
1167 2011-11-20 23:53:00 <phantomcircuit> (heh merely)
1168 2011-11-20 23:53:07 <gmaxwell> Right.
1169 2011-11-20 23:54:46 <gmaxwell> Edward_Black: odd, personally I traded a car for lawn service. In the family business I used to work it we often made inkind transactions for services of our customers (computers for signs, for example). I assume many people have engaged inkind transactions.
1170 2011-11-20 23:55:24 <phantomcircuit> my friends are growing up
1171 2011-11-20 23:55:36 <phantomcircuit> facebook is no longer covered in pictures of drunks
1172 2011-11-20 23:56:07 <Edward_Black> gmaxwell  transactions of that sort require a notable degree of trust, or a general low probability of fraud due to some internal circumstance
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1174 2011-11-20 23:57:27 <Edward_Black> But I always wondered just how easy would it be to counterfeit some of those nice little "neighborhood money", go to locale that uses them, buy up as much stuff as my SUV could carry, and drive away into the sunset :~)
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1176 2011-11-20 23:58:12 <Edward_Black> or some of those marketing-stamp thing... when I was a kid, they were really low-sec (now they have holograms and barcodes and whatnot :~( )
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1178 2011-11-20 23:59:23 <Edward_Black> Generally, "a good that is really popular as a form of (permissibly defined) money" is more like "diamonds in a sack"  at best (and diamonds make relatively decent physical money, despite liquidit troubles and ugly traceability issues)