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2 2011-11-23 00:07:04 <graingert> tcatm: where is the developer list generated?
3 2011-11-23 00:07:13 <graingert> it seems to be hardcoded in the repo I am looking at
4 2011-11-23 00:07:31 <tcatm> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/blob/master/_plugins/contributors.rb
5 2011-11-23 00:08:38 <graingert> I was thinking about adding gravatars to the site
6 2011-11-23 00:08:43 <graingert> as a few of the devs have them
7 2011-11-23 00:09:20 <tcatm> there are two repos. bitcoin.org and bitcoin.github.com. bitcoin.github.com is the static page genereated from bitcoin.org
8 2011-11-23 00:09:33 <graingert> ah
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12 2011-11-23 00:09:40 <graingert> neat
13 2011-11-23 00:10:27 <tcatm> in theory we could rsync it to other webservers but we are using github because it should survive another slashdot
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89 2011-11-23 04:30:16 <denisx> hi
90 2011-11-23 04:30:24 <denisx> for what is the new command "getmemorypool"?
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92 2011-11-23 04:31:15 <denisx> looks like to speedup getwork generation for pushpoold or other pool deamons?
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96 2011-11-23 04:43:16 <luke-jr> denisx: ..
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98 2011-11-23 04:43:34 <denisx> .luke-jr yes?
99 2011-11-23 04:43:43 <luke-jr> denisx: read my code :P
100 2011-11-23 04:43:47 <denisx> luke-jr: I see
101 2011-11-23 04:47:51 <denisx> luke-jr: how do I get the code again?
102 2011-11-23 04:48:09 <luke-jr> git clone http://eligius.st/~luke-jr/.eloipool.git eloipool
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155 2011-11-23 07:49:51 <Lolcust> Hello everybody! Does anyone have tools that could gather transactions statistics (such as, how many transactions to date have happened, how many of them carried a fee, etc.)
156 2011-11-23 07:49:56 <Lolcust> ?
157 2011-11-23 07:58:52 <batouzo> Lolcust: you could try using blockexplorer too
158 2011-11-23 08:00:26 andreiu has joined
159 2011-11-23 08:01:43 <Lolcust> batouzo I did, and so far see now way to get the "how many of them had fee" info from it...
160 2011-11-23 08:02:06 <luke-jr> Lolcust: that's very non-trivial
161 2011-11-23 08:02:58 <Lolcust> Yeah, I suppose so... Still, it would be interesting bit of "ecoinnomic" info to have...
162 2011-11-23 08:07:52 <denisx> luke-jr: I disabled misstate and hash1 on my pool and the rate dropped 80%
163 2011-11-23 08:07:55 <denisx> midstate
164 2011-11-23 08:08:24 <luke-jr> denisx: interesting, but not overly surprising. I guess you have a lot of old-cgminer users?
165 2011-11-23 08:08:42 <denisx> luke-jr: and phoenix 1.50
166 2011-11-23 08:08:56 <luke-jr> is that current?
167 2011-11-23 08:08:59 <denisx> no
168 2011-11-23 08:10:08 <denisx> old = phoenix/1.50
169 2011-11-23 08:10:15 <denisx> new = phoenix/r86
170 2011-11-23 08:11:21 <denisx> lolz
171 2011-11-23 08:11:22 <denisx> Ufasof-special-for-deepbit-workaround bitcoin-miner/0.13
172 2011-11-23 08:11:31 <denisx> and he is connecting to me! ;)
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225 2011-11-23 09:47:36 <denisx> luke-jr: how is the extranonce increased with getmemorypool?
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239 2011-11-23 10:32:05 <Edward_Black> !seen batouzo
240 2011-11-23 10:32:05 <gribble> batouzo was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 hours, 33 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <batouzo> Lolcust: you could try using blockexplorer too
241 2011-11-23 10:32:07 <spaola> batouzo (~batouzo@ip-1-141.gemini.net.pl) was last seen quitting from #bitcoin-dev 1 hour, 57 minutes ago stating (Quit: Leaving).
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248 2011-11-23 10:48:46 <TD> good day
249 2011-11-23 10:51:28 <shadders> howdy googler
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273 2011-11-23 11:39:54 <coingenuity> sup shadders
274 2011-11-23 11:40:23 <shadders> hey
275 2011-11-23 11:40:45 <coingenuity> what's good?
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278 2011-11-23 11:43:18 <shadders> damn I must be old... looking at LMFAO clips on youtube and I just don't get it...
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280 2011-11-23 11:44:42 <Graet> must be...
281 2011-11-23 11:45:45 <shadders> screw this I'm going back to my trusty acid house
282 2011-11-23 11:45:58 <Graet> :)
283 2011-11-23 11:49:22 <shadders> 2:10 my kinda tune... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRkwlPK3mX8&feature=related
284 2011-11-23 11:53:39 * shadders yearns for the sounds of a tortured 303
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313 2011-11-23 13:02:12 <etotheipi_> Lolcust, I actually have some tools you could use to gather statistics on the blockchain
314 2011-11-23 13:02:22 <etotheipi_> ...if you're still here
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321 2011-11-23 13:12:19 <etotheipi_> Lolcust, if you see this, please email me at etotheipi@gmail.com -- I can help set you up with your blockchain statistic
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323 2011-11-23 13:15:45 <abragin> new bitcoin user interface looks significantly better, good work guys
324 2011-11-23 13:17:15 <abragin> though previous tray icon was better IMHO
325 2011-11-23 13:17:17 <[Tycho]> Hello, devs.
326 2011-11-23 13:17:33 <[Tycho]> Are there any screenshots of that 0.5 GUI ?
327 2011-11-23 13:17:39 <abragin> Hi
328 2011-11-23 13:17:44 <abragin> I just installed the new version
329 2011-11-23 13:17:54 <abragin> I could make you a screenshot, if you like
330 2011-11-23 13:18:13 <[Tycho]> Yes, please, if you have any TXes there, not just empty window :)
331 2011-11-23 13:19:04 <[Tycho]> I heard also that it finally can show notifications on incoming funds. Is that true ?
332 2011-11-23 13:20:23 <abragin> It shows me Russian language interface for some reason, but ok, here it is:
333 2011-11-23 13:20:33 <abragin> http://i003.radikal.ru/1111/1a/a5e0529c1cf9.jpg
334 2011-11-23 13:21:39 <[Tycho]> "бÑмажник", lol. Why not "коÑелÑк" ?
335 2011-11-23 13:22:22 <[Tycho]> Also i wonder why "send" and "receive" arrows aren't pointing at opposite directions.
336 2011-11-23 13:22:39 <[Tycho]> As I understand, "receive" means "generate new address" ?
337 2011-11-23 13:24:10 <TD> yeah
338 2011-11-23 13:24:11 <TD> with a label
339 2011-11-23 13:25:11 <TD> justmoon: hey
340 2011-11-23 13:25:17 <TD> justmoon: how are things going?
341 2011-11-23 13:25:26 <[Tycho]> Who is justmoon ?
342 2011-11-23 13:26:23 <coingenuity> not a man
343 2011-11-23 13:26:25 <coingenuity> not a plane
344 2011-11-23 13:26:28 <coingenuity> planet
345 2011-11-23 13:26:30 <coingenuity> just...a moon
346 2011-11-23 13:26:41 <TD> [Tycho]: stefan thomas. creator of weusecoins and bitcoinjs
347 2011-11-23 13:26:46 <TD> amongst other things
348 2011-11-23 13:26:59 <[Tycho]> Oh, I should write that down.
349 2011-11-23 13:27:17 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8954.40
350 2011-11-23 13:27:22 <[Tycho]> I have weusecoins video on my homepage.
351 2011-11-23 13:27:23 <TD> oops
352 2011-11-23 13:27:23 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8954.0
353 2011-11-23 13:27:32 <TD> a quick reference to some nicks in the community
354 2011-11-23 13:27:45 <TD> these days more people are using their real names on the forum so it's not as useful
355 2011-11-23 13:28:43 <coingenuity> lol
356 2011-11-23 13:29:52 <[Tycho]> Nice find. But my list is already longer :)
357 2011-11-23 13:30:01 <abragin> oh, BitCoinJ dev is a former CodeWeavers employee, nice ;)
358 2011-11-23 13:30:14 <TD> how did you know that?
359 2011-11-23 13:30:23 <TD> [Tycho]: i wrote that list so it's not really a find :-)
360 2011-11-23 13:31:39 <shadders> lol @ [Tycho]'s list that he never seems to be able to find :p
361 2011-11-23 13:31:46 <TD> abragin: yeah i was the first person to try running bitcoin on wine, back in 2009 :)
362 2011-11-23 13:31:52 <abragin> cool :-)
363 2011-11-23 13:31:56 <[Tycho]> shadders: I created a new one already.
364 2011-11-23 13:32:04 <abragin> I'm gonna try it in ReactOS now as we have a much better network stack
365 2011-11-23 13:32:38 <abragin> [Tycho] - would you publish it anywhere?
366 2011-11-23 13:33:13 <[Tycho]> Yes.
367 2011-11-23 13:33:19 <abragin> Cool.
368 2011-11-23 13:33:39 <[Tycho]> I have to create a csv parser to publish it on my site.
369 2011-11-23 13:36:23 ThomasV has joined
370 2011-11-23 13:36:56 datagutt has joined
371 2011-11-23 13:36:58 datagutt has quit (Changing host)
372 2011-11-23 13:36:58 datagutt has joined
373 2011-11-23 13:37:48 <[Tycho]> Apple's Excel surrogate can't even export to HTML
374 2011-11-23 13:44:09 <[Tycho]> abragin: lots of free space, but no confirmation counters on those TXes....
375 2011-11-23 13:44:42 Diablo-D3 has joined
376 2011-11-23 13:52:49 agricocb has joined
377 2011-11-23 13:57:07 <luke-jr> denisx: getmemorypool does not create a coinbase txn for you
378 2011-11-23 13:58:33 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
379 2011-11-23 14:09:27 wasabi2 has joined
380 2011-11-23 14:10:02 wasabi1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
381 2011-11-23 14:10:27 <denisx> luke-jr: I see
382 2011-11-23 14:10:37 skeledrew1 has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.2a1pre)
383 2011-11-23 14:12:26 <diki> just to ask
384 2011-11-23 14:12:36 <diki> but does bitcoin version above 0.3.24 have this 4diff patch?
385 2011-11-23 14:12:49 <diki> where poolserverj will halt or something?
386 2011-11-23 14:12:59 <luke-jr> diki: no. blob patches are not acceptable.
387 2011-11-23 14:13:19 <luke-jr> diki: I submitted various pull requests for the functionality upstream, but very, if any, got merged
388 2011-11-23 14:16:33 eueueue has quit (Quit: Saindo)
389 2011-11-23 14:18:59 <shadders> diki: it's bitcoind that halts not poolserverj.... it occasionally happens with 0.5.0. The rpc thread will just stop
390 2011-11-23 14:19:33 gp5st has joined
391 2011-11-23 14:19:52 <diki> why is it not fixed?
392 2011-11-23 14:20:18 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
393 2011-11-23 14:20:31 <luke-jr> diki: because nobody wants to fix it
394 2011-11-23 14:20:44 copumpkin has joined
395 2011-11-23 14:20:57 <luke-jr> AIUI, 4diff doesn't really fix it either-- just having the JSON-RPC calls in different threads makes it less noticable ;P:
396 2011-11-23 14:21:15 <luke-jr> shadders: you should probably try debugging it if you cna reproduce
397 2011-11-23 14:22:07 <denisx> halt problem?
398 2011-11-23 14:22:16 <denisx> which version?
399 2011-11-23 14:22:29 <shadders> don't really know how to debug c... I've actually never heard of it from ppl running psj + bitcoind 0.5 in production... I've only seen it myself in my test environment a few times...
400 2011-11-23 14:23:25 Wack0 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
401 2011-11-23 14:25:09 Wack0 has joined
402 2011-11-23 14:26:25 <shadders> luke-jr: if you can suggest a tool that C numpty could use I'll give it a go and see I can track it down.
403 2011-11-23 14:27:19 <diki> shadders:are you the creator of psj?
404 2011-11-23 14:27:23 <luke-jr> shadders: gdb?
405 2011-11-23 14:28:08 <shadders> creator? That sounds positively deity like... no I'm just it's servant
406 2011-11-23 14:28:42 <luke-jr> shadders is a Servant?
407 2011-11-23 14:30:04 <luke-jr> shadders: which one? Saber, Lancer, Archer, Rider, Caster, Assassin, or Berserker?
408 2011-11-23 14:30:40 <diki> lol
409 2011-11-23 14:30:55 <diki> i was just thinking of fate
410 2011-11-23 14:31:30 <diki> shadders would be more like Archer
411 2011-11-23 14:32:31 * shadders googles
412 2011-11-23 14:32:49 * luke-jr ponders *what* shadders googles
413 2011-11-23 14:33:26 * shadders nods nonchalantly as though he knew wtf you were talking about 'servant'
414 2011-11-23 14:33:43 <diki> i am puzzled as to what db.stmt.insertShare.columnMapping does
415 2011-11-23 14:34:25 <shadders> ### Share Logging Query and Column Mapping - ***READ THIS***
416 2011-11-23 14:34:46 <shadders> just above the big list of columns
417 2011-11-23 14:36:59 <diki> and db.schema? i am using pushpoold compatibility
418 2011-11-23 14:37:54 <shadders> the name of yr db schema
419 2011-11-23 14:38:12 <shadders> in mysql it's the same as database name
420 2011-11-23 14:38:28 andreiu has joined
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422 2011-11-23 14:39:24 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
423 2011-11-23 14:39:46 <luke-jr> diki: I wrote a pool server fyi
424 2011-11-23 14:39:54 <luke-jr> in Python
425 2011-11-23 14:41:47 MobiusL has joined
426 2011-11-23 14:42:41 <diki> my arch enemy python
427 2011-11-23 14:42:52 <diki> at least it's cross-platform i hope
428 2011-11-23 14:42:59 <luke-jr> Python is for idiots like you :P
429 2011-11-23 14:43:02 <luke-jr> nfc
430 2011-11-23 14:43:08 <diki> what?
431 2011-11-23 14:43:18 <luke-jr> you want to make sure it supports your weird platform?
432 2011-11-23 14:43:28 <diki> lol weird
433 2011-11-23 14:43:48 * luke-jr only uses Linux
434 2011-11-23 14:44:07 <shadders> lol... luke doesn't believe anything but native code on a posix compliant platform actually exists :p
435 2011-11-23 14:44:08 <diki> Lienux...already sounds weird
436 2011-11-23 14:47:00 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
437 2011-11-23 14:56:04 eoss has joined
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441 2011-11-23 14:56:52 <diki> shadders:do i still need a patched bitcoind in order to do merged mining?
442 2011-11-23 14:58:38 <shadders> you just need to have getmemorypool
443 2011-11-23 14:59:15 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
444 2011-11-23 14:59:45 <diki> on bitcoin OR namecoind?
445 2011-11-23 14:59:58 danbri has joined
446 2011-11-23 15:00:04 <shadders> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=51226.0
447 2011-11-23 15:01:38 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
448 2011-11-23 15:02:13 <diki> ok, but is version 0.3.64 of namecoind the merged mining one?
449 2011-11-23 15:02:28 <diki> oops i mean 0.3.24.64
450 2011-11-23 15:02:34 <luke-jr> shadders: no support for coinbaser scripts? :P
451 2011-11-23 15:02:35 <diki> that is the version i have
452 2011-11-23 15:02:36 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
453 2011-11-23 15:03:53 <diki> it's the executable from dot-bit.org
454 2011-11-23 15:03:57 <diki> not from git or anything
455 2011-11-23 15:04:18 <shadders> I use artforz branch of namecoind
456 2011-11-23 15:04:59 <diki> Any exe floating around?
457 2011-11-23 15:05:05 <shadders> coinbasing for namecoin is broken... probably won't be fixed for a few weeks. but you only have to change one setting to disable it. works perfectly for bitcoin
458 2011-11-23 15:05:20 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
459 2011-11-23 15:05:44 HaltingState has joined
460 2011-11-23 15:05:51 <shadders> probably... you should be able to use the official version of namecoind
461 2011-11-23 15:06:03 <shadders> I'm sure there's an exe version of that.
462 2011-11-23 15:06:25 <diki> i will try the official 0.3.24.64 i just hope it's from the merged-mining tree
463 2011-11-23 15:06:43 <shadders> 64 is mm capable
464 2011-11-23 15:08:53 wasabi1 has joined
465 2011-11-23 15:09:03 <diki> but...it seems it will require some changes to my database
466 2011-11-23 15:09:11 <diki> as in my shares table since it's veeery custom
467 2011-11-23 15:10:52 wasabi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
468 2011-11-23 15:11:43 <diki> is there a way to currently disable mm in 0.4 workmaker?
469 2011-11-23 15:11:49 <diki> as it fails to start otherwise
470 2011-11-23 15:12:21 iocor has joined
471 2011-11-23 15:12:28 <diki> com.google.bitcoin.core.AddressFormatException: Mismatched version number, trying to cross networks? 111 vs 52
472 2011-11-23 15:14:25 mologie has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
473 2011-11-23 15:15:06 mologie has joined
474 2011-11-23 15:17:01 slush has joined
475 2011-11-23 15:17:46 <shadders> the default payout addresses are all testnet addresses to make sure it won't start if you haven't put yr own address in...
476 2011-11-23 15:18:11 <shadders> I'm off to bed... any more questions put them in the thread.
477 2011-11-23 15:18:44 <diki> but if i do not wish to use it?
478 2011-11-23 15:19:27 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
479 2011-11-23 15:21:50 RazielZ has joined
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483 2011-11-23 15:28:55 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: why do you call it "Free transaction relay policy" if it's not free ? :)
484 2011-11-23 15:31:42 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: it is.
485 2011-11-23 15:31:46 <luke-jr> free relay.
486 2011-11-23 15:33:57 <[Tycho]> Sadly people don't like strange TXes and noone is creating them :9
487 2011-11-23 15:34:09 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
488 2011-11-23 15:34:17 * luke-jr blames Gavin <.<
489 2011-11-23 15:34:20 iocor has joined
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493 2011-11-23 15:40:20 <[Tycho]> The worst thing is that MOST useful ops are disabled and the rest is useless because of 4 bytes limit.
494 2011-11-23 15:41:00 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: write tests to prove the disabled ones correct... reenabling them isn't that hard ( though it takes a while)
495 2011-11-23 15:41:15 andreiu has joined
496 2011-11-23 15:42:46 <[Tycho]> Well, it only makes sense if most users will enable them too.
497 2011-11-23 15:42:59 <[Tycho]> Also, they need to be changed.
498 2011-11-23 15:43:37 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: what's about 4-byte limit ?
499 2011-11-23 15:45:10 * sipa wonders whether we shouldn't use OP_EVAL as an opportunity to make the scripting language a bit more lax
500 2011-11-23 15:45:13 XX01XX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
501 2011-11-23 15:47:23 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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505 2011-11-23 15:50:39 <[Tycho]> lax ?
506 2011-11-23 15:50:58 <sipa> sorry, is that no english?
507 2011-11-23 15:51:03 <sipa> i mean "less strict"
508 2011-11-23 15:51:14 <[Tycho]> I don't know, I don't speak english :)
509 2011-11-23 15:51:27 <sipa> what's your native language?
510 2011-11-23 15:52:09 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
511 2011-11-23 15:52:19 <[Tycho]> Also I wonder why they say that OP_CAT is dangerous and OP_DUP is not. OP_CAT shouldn't change the stack's total size, it should even reduce it by one element.
512 2011-11-23 15:53:31 graingert has joined
513 2011-11-23 15:54:19 <sipa> the combination op dup and cat is dangerous, and dup is already used
514 2011-11-23 15:54:41 <sipa> but i agree the selection seems a bit arbitrary (and exaggerated)
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517 2011-11-23 15:56:19 pirateat39 is now known as imsaguy
518 2011-11-23 15:56:45 <[Tycho]> sipa: there is already element size limit in the OP_CAT code.
519 2011-11-23 16:00:43 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
520 2011-11-23 16:01:18 <[Tycho]> if (stacktop(-1).size() > 520)
521 2011-11-23 16:01:18 <[Tycho]> return false;
522 2011-11-23 16:01:50 <[Tycho]> sipa: can you also tell me why OP_XOR is dangerous ?
523 2011-11-23 16:03:34 <sipa> imho, it's not
524 2011-11-23 16:04:06 copumpkin has joined
525 2011-11-23 16:05:54 <[Tycho]> But I don't see why it's disabled.
526 2011-11-23 16:07:05 <sipa> i don't think the restriction on those operations was ever intended to last so long
527 2011-11-23 16:07:21 <[Tycho]> I was checking any ops that can combine two args into one, but ALL of them are disabled.
528 2011-11-23 16:07:21 somuchwin2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
529 2011-11-23 16:07:31 <[Tycho]> (to try salting)
530 2011-11-23 16:07:32 <graingert> why are they dangerous?
531 2011-11-23 16:07:47 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
532 2011-11-23 16:07:55 <graingert> dangerous in terms of destroying bitcoins or slowing down the network/
533 2011-11-23 16:07:59 somuchwin has joined
534 2011-11-23 16:07:59 <graingert> ?*
535 2011-11-23 16:08:42 btc_novice has joined
536 2011-11-23 16:08:52 <[Tycho]> The 32 bits limit is annoying because most binary magic is around 160-256 bit values and NO ops can operate on those (except crypto).
537 2011-11-23 16:09:15 superman2016 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
538 2011-11-23 16:09:29 superman2016 has joined
539 2011-11-23 16:09:47 <[Tycho]> graingert: dangerous as possible dos attack on blockchain checking nodes.
540 2011-11-23 16:10:10 <graingert> ic
541 2011-11-23 16:11:47 <[Tycho]> We're all doomed.
542 2011-11-23 16:12:00 <graingert> o rly
543 2011-11-23 16:12:09 <graingert> nodes could just drop those tx
544 2011-11-23 16:13:24 <sipa> graingert: there still needs to be a criterion to select "too hard" script
545 2011-11-23 16:13:59 <[Tycho]> Well, I mean the opposite.
546 2011-11-23 16:14:05 <graingert> oh no
547 2011-11-23 16:14:12 <[Tycho]> We're all doomed because funny scripts are not allowed.
548 2011-11-23 16:14:16 <graingert> oh
549 2011-11-23 16:14:25 <graingert> that doesn't seem an issue...
550 2011-11-23 16:14:37 <sipa> that's just unconvenient
551 2011-11-23 16:14:41 <sipa> and a pity
552 2011-11-23 16:14:42 <graingert> if only it was turing complete
553 2011-11-23 16:14:50 <graingert> we could put bitcoin miners in transactions
554 2011-11-23 16:14:52 <[Tycho]> It shouldn't.
555 2011-11-23 16:14:52 <sipa> god forbid if it was turing complete
556 2011-11-23 16:15:28 <graingert> tx: prev out XXX: output: <Linux>
557 2011-11-23 16:15:53 <sipa> note that the script's I/O facilities are incredibly limited
558 2011-11-23 16:15:55 <[Tycho]> Allowing full-precision bitwise ops can make proof-of-work tasks possible :)
559 2011-11-23 16:16:10 <graingert> sipa: you'd have to emulate the universe
560 2011-11-23 16:16:40 <graingert> hmm
561 2011-11-23 16:16:42 <graingert> new idea
562 2011-11-23 16:16:45 <sipa> the only input is the scriptSig, and indirectly the message hash of the script you're signing
563 2011-11-23 16:16:52 <sipa> and the only output is one bit: accept or not
564 2011-11-23 16:17:16 <sipa> s/signing/verifying/
565 2011-11-23 16:17:28 <graingert> hook up a 3d printer and some air cannons for physics virtualisation
566 2011-11-23 16:17:54 <graingert> don't emulate physics, run it via calls to the hypervisor
567 2011-11-23 16:18:15 <sipa> ... unsure ...
568 2011-11-23 16:18:29 <graingert> if you want to work out what happens when two balls collide
569 2011-11-23 16:18:34 <graingert> print them out
570 2011-11-23 16:18:36 <graingert> and fire them at each other
571 2011-11-23 16:18:46 <graingert> record what happens and pass it to your opengl render
572 2011-11-23 16:20:03 <graingert> simples
573 2011-11-23 16:25:24 andreiu1 has joined
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575 2011-11-23 16:40:44 <helo> sick
576 2011-11-23 16:42:49 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
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611 2011-11-23 18:50:44 <graingert> lol helo
612 2011-11-23 18:57:53 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
613 2011-11-23 18:58:00 <luke-jr> HELO luke.dashjr.org
614 2011-11-23 18:58:16 abragin has quit ()
615 2011-11-23 18:59:29 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: what about making the world a better place ?
616 2011-11-23 18:59:45 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: you want to promote Tonal with me? :D
617 2011-11-23 19:00:25 <[Tycho]> Well, not quite. I'm talking about enabling more ops and allowing more bytes while noone used them yet.
618 2011-11-23 19:00:49 <luke-jr> hmm/
619 2011-11-23 19:00:50 <luke-jr> ?
620 2011-11-23 19:01:13 <[Tycho]> 4 bytes is not enough for bitwise ops and math
621 2011-11-23 19:01:18 <[Tycho]> Really.
622 2011-11-23 19:01:32 <luke-jr> k
623 2011-11-23 19:01:46 dan__ has joined
624 2011-11-23 19:02:06 <gmaxwell> Any ops changs would be pretty good to overload with op_eval.
625 2011-11-23 19:02:26 <gmaxwell> (since they could be permitted only inside the eval script and thus avoid creating a fork)
626 2011-11-23 19:04:15 <[Tycho]> That's not enough :)
627 2011-11-23 19:04:22 <[Tycho]> Ops should be free !
628 2011-11-23 19:05:02 abragin has joined
629 2011-11-23 19:06:22 BlueMatt has joined
630 2011-11-23 19:06:24 <[Tycho]> Do you think that enabling disabled ops can cause forking ?
631 2011-11-23 19:06:33 coblee has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
632 2011-11-23 19:07:16 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: guaranteed to
633 2011-11-23 19:07:27 <gmaxwell> What luke-jr said.
634 2011-11-23 19:07:41 <gmaxwell> You guys can't just enable the disabled ones on your own.. every other node will just ignore you.
635 2011-11-23 19:08:00 <gmaxwell> It would need to be coordinated and people would need to upgradeâ OR they'd have to be burried in op_eval.
636 2011-11-23 19:08:56 <gmaxwell> They're disabled due to the risk of things like this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Incidents#LSHIFT_and_RETURN_bugs
637 2011-11-23 19:09:11 <[Tycho]> Well, otherwise there would be no point in asking others.
638 2011-11-23 19:09:18 <gmaxwell> And it's not enough to not mine them to prevent bugs in them from being a security vulnerability.. nodes have to refuse to parse them too.
639 2011-11-23 19:09:36 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: but you can't simply enable them with a majority hash power either.
640 2011-11-23 19:10:07 <gmaxwell> From the perspective of everyone whos hasn't made the change.. the 'majority' which has .. has simply stopped mining entirely.
641 2011-11-23 19:10:23 <makomk> Why was there a RETURN opcode in the first place, by the way?
642 2011-11-23 19:11:26 <[Tycho]> As I remember, gavin has a roadmap for enabling.
643 2011-11-23 19:11:32 HaltingState has joined
644 2011-11-23 19:11:32 HaltingState has quit (Changing host)
645 2011-11-23 19:11:32 HaltingState has joined
646 2011-11-23 19:11:39 <BlueMatt> heh, just updated bitcoin-qt via my package manager, how nice
647 2011-11-23 19:13:31 <gmaxwell> makomk: iirc return lets you fail a txn (e.g. in response to an if) without forcing you to make the top stack element false (zero).
648 2011-11-23 19:16:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: updated it ⦠to what? 0.5.1 already?
649 2011-11-23 19:16:44 <makomk> Ah. Curious. What was the bug then - that sounds fairly harmless?
650 2011-11-23 19:17:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I had rc7 installed
651 2011-11-23 19:17:04 <luke-jr> o
652 2011-11-23 19:17:27 <graingert> :p
653 2011-11-23 19:17:41 <graingert> le dogfood
654 2011-11-23 19:17:57 <graingert> I wonder if the chromium team document their daily PPA build process
655 2011-11-23 19:21:17 <BlueMatt> you know, its not a bad idea to do a. 0.4.1 bitcoind package in the stable ppa, and b. do daily ppa uploads from jenkins (ie after a build is confirmed to builds and the test suite passes, upload it to launchpad)
656 2011-11-23 19:21:58 denisx has joined
657 2011-11-23 19:22:28 <graingert> how would you separate the two versions
658 2011-11-23 19:22:43 <BlueMatt> bitcoind-4.X package or smth
659 2011-11-23 19:22:47 <BlueMatt> (like how vbox does it)
660 2011-11-23 19:22:50 <graingert> ew
661 2011-11-23 19:22:52 <BlueMatt> or I suppose bitcoind4
662 2011-11-23 19:23:13 <BlueMatt> virtualbox has eg virtualbox-4.0 and virtualbox-4.1
663 2011-11-23 19:23:17 <graingert> yeah
664 2011-11-23 19:23:30 <luke-jr> erm
665 2011-11-23 19:23:35 <luke-jr> you just wouldn't add both PPAs :p
666 2011-11-23 19:23:36 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
667 2011-11-23 19:23:41 iddo has joined
668 2011-11-23 19:23:44 <luke-jr> or use apt pinning
669 2011-11-23 19:23:48 <graingert> I guess if you have bitcoin depends on bitcoin-qt-0.5.1
670 2011-11-23 19:23:55 <graingert> sorry
671 2011-11-23 19:23:58 <graingert> I guess if you have bitcoin depends on bitcoin-qt-0.5.0
672 2011-11-23 19:24:01 <graingert> as a meta package
673 2011-11-23 19:24:09 <luke-jr> true, wxbitcoin and bitcoin-qt wouldn't conflict
674 2011-11-23 19:24:22 <luke-jr> there shouldn't be any "bitcoin" packagre
675 2011-11-23 19:24:37 <graingert> why not bitcoin-w
676 2011-11-23 19:24:40 <graingert> why not bitcoin-wx
677 2011-11-23 19:24:42 <graingert> *
678 2011-11-23 19:24:57 <luke-jr> because it doesn't need a new name unless someone's going to maintain it?
679 2011-11-23 19:25:05 <graingert> well as a package
680 2011-11-23 19:25:16 <graingert> I would say it's low priority to provide a repo for it
681 2011-11-23 19:25:37 <graingert> daily builds would be much more usefull
682 2011-11-23 19:25:46 <BlueMatt> Im not gonna bother working at a wx-2.9 package
683 2011-11-23 19:25:52 <BlueMatt> that would be a huge pita
684 2011-11-23 19:26:18 <BlueMatt> but I think bitcoind 0.4 branch should be in the ppa
685 2011-11-23 19:27:12 <graingert> it would be nice to get some miners/pool code
686 2011-11-23 19:27:25 <graingert> MoSCoW time
687 2011-11-23 19:27:37 <BlueMatt> Id rather not apply any patches to bitcoind in the ppa
688 2011-11-23 19:29:19 <luke-jr> graingert: if you want that, get them pulled into mainline
689 2011-11-23 19:32:02 <graingert> nah
690 2011-11-23 19:32:04 <tcatm> I just can't get gitian builder to work. No it's spawning a vm but when I connect via VNC it hangs at "Booting from harddisk..." with 100% CPU usage
691 2011-11-23 19:32:25 <MC1984> this new ui
692 2011-11-23 19:32:27 <MC1984> oh lord
693 2011-11-23 19:32:43 <graingert> MC1984: some things are better, some things are worse
694 2011-11-23 19:32:58 <MC1984> so much empty space
695 2011-11-23 19:33:01 <graingert> toolbar for tabs is the worst
696 2011-11-23 19:33:22 <MC1984> block count stats are a fucking tooltip
697 2011-11-23 19:33:24 <MC1984> !
698 2011-11-23 19:33:32 <graingert> people were scared of it
699 2011-11-23 19:33:34 <BlueMatt> tcatm: I had thought you had succeeded before?
700 2011-11-23 19:34:12 <tcatm> That was long ago on a different computer.
701 2011-11-23 19:34:33 <BlueMatt> :(
702 2011-11-23 19:34:40 <BlueMatt> what host are you on now?
703 2011-11-23 19:36:00 <MC1984> people re even more scared of 4progress bars that take ages
704 2011-11-23 19:36:18 <tcatm> core i5
705 2011-11-23 19:36:30 <BlueMatt> host os?
706 2011-11-23 19:36:34 <tcatm> debian
707 2011-11-23 19:36:51 <graingert> MC1984: make your UI issues known in the "Issues" of the GH repo
708 2011-11-23 19:37:11 <BlueMatt> tcatm: since when does debian have the ubuntu vm-builder package?
709 2011-11-23 19:37:22 <MC1984> eh
710 2011-11-23 19:37:26 <MC1984> meh
711 2011-11-23 19:38:14 <tcatm> I downloaded it from ubuntu and installed it.
712 2011-11-23 19:38:23 <BlueMatt> tcatm: do you have an ubuntu live(cd|usb) lying around?
713 2011-11-23 19:38:36 <BlueMatt> (and enough ram to download a bunch of crap to ramfs?
714 2011-11-23 19:39:14 <tcatm> yes, but a very slow internet connection
715 2011-11-23 19:39:58 <BlueMatt> well you just have to git clone gitian-builder, bitcoin and install the vm-builder, the deps you can just copy from your hdd
716 2011-11-23 19:40:07 <BlueMatt> actually you could copy most of the stuff from your hdd
717 2011-11-23 19:40:23 <tcatm> very slow = 64kbit/s
718 2011-11-23 19:40:28 <BlueMatt> ...oh
719 2011-11-23 19:40:34 <BlueMatt> well then you can copy everything from your hd
720 2011-11-23 19:40:35 <BlueMatt> d
721 2011-11-23 19:41:31 <wumpus> MC1984: yeah maybe the ui should show up/download speed, like a torrent client.. block count however is a meaningless number when measuring download speed as the blocks have wildly different sizes
722 2011-11-23 19:41:46 erle- has joined
723 2011-11-23 19:41:59 <tcatm> yeah, except accessing encrypted volumes from a live cd isn't fun. can gitian be tweaked so everything can run inside a VM?
724 2011-11-23 19:42:10 <MC1984> its still a nice stat
725 2011-11-23 19:42:24 <wumpus> no, it's not, it's a meaningless big number
726 2011-11-23 19:42:29 <MC1984> why not have both
727 2011-11-23 19:42:31 <BlueMatt> tcatm: only if you have the ability to build a custom 3.1-based kernel
728 2011-11-23 19:42:46 <BlueMatt> tcatm: and afaik no one has ever tried it, its just theoretically possible
729 2011-11-23 19:42:48 <wumpus> because I don't want a crapload of stuff in the status bar
730 2011-11-23 19:43:05 <tcatm> can't it use full x86 emulation? I think qemu supports that
731 2011-11-23 19:43:24 <BlueMatt> tcatm: well I suppose you could do that but its pretty ridiculously slow
732 2011-11-23 19:43:31 <BlueMatt> tcatm: like a couple hours instead of 10 minutes
733 2011-11-23 19:43:49 <wumpus> compiling c++ in a full x86 emulation.. eerr
734 2011-11-23 19:43:51 amiller has joined
735 2011-11-23 19:44:01 <tcatm> I could run it on a server then, though. So that wouldn't matter that much
736 2011-11-23 19:44:20 <BlueMatt> well then go ahead, start it today and come back with results next month
737 2011-11-23 19:44:53 <tcatm> It can't be that slow. I used to do cross compiling for ARM with full system emulation
738 2011-11-23 19:45:27 <BlueMatt> well a month is a dramatization, but it will take a couple hours
739 2011-11-23 19:46:00 <wumpus> but can't virtualbox/vmware run a pretty fast vm even on al older CPU? why does neccesarily require those fancy hypervisor bits ?
740 2011-11-23 19:46:08 <wumpus> +qemu
741 2011-11-23 19:46:16 <BlueMatt> also it shouldnt take any modifications, it should fall back on qemu emullation iirc
742 2011-11-23 19:46:36 <makomk> Requires a small change to the scripts last time I looked.
743 2011-11-23 19:46:38 <BlueMatt> wumpus: qemu does it wrong, doing it via vbox would be plenty fast
744 2011-11-23 19:46:47 <wumpus> BlueMatt: yup
745 2011-11-23 19:46:49 <BlueMatt> makomk: mm, might have changed, it used to fall back
746 2011-11-23 19:46:55 <tcatm> IIRC most linux kernels have virtualization support built it so they should be pretty fast even without kvm
747 2011-11-23 19:47:08 <BlueMatt> tcatm: nope
748 2011-11-23 19:47:25 <BlueMatt> tcatm: not if you do qemu emulation, then it doesnt use any kernel stuff
749 2011-11-23 19:47:41 <BlueMatt> just run it, it will work, just be really slow
750 2011-11-23 19:47:56 <BlueMatt> (and just hope its deterministic)
751 2011-11-23 19:48:24 Edward_Black has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
752 2011-11-23 19:48:48 <makomk> tcatm: I think I had a hang at "Booting from hard disc..." too the first time I tried gitian-builder.
753 2011-11-23 19:50:19 Edward_Black has joined
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755 2011-11-23 19:52:30 eueueue has joined
756 2011-11-23 19:53:45 mercora has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
757 2011-11-23 19:58:44 <wumpus> makomk: I think the gitian log files provide more detailed info
758 2011-11-23 19:58:57 <BlueMatt> tail -F var/*.log might help
759 2011-11-23 20:00:32 MaxSan has joined
760 2011-11-23 20:03:17 <makomk> Not sure it did; IIRC it'd somehow failed to install the boot sector properly and that part of boot's handled by a grotty legacy BIOS.
761 2011-11-23 20:04:01 da2ce7 has joined
762 2011-11-23 20:05:06 MaxSan has left ()
763 2011-11-23 20:06:47 HaltingState has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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766 2011-11-23 20:16:28 <MC1984> does bitcoin still use an irc channel
767 2011-11-23 20:16:37 <graingert> some people do
768 2011-11-23 20:16:51 <graingert> but not current versions
769 2011-11-23 20:17:07 <graingert> there are 4 in #bitcoin
770 2011-11-23 20:17:14 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
771 2011-11-23 20:17:16 <gmaxwell> graingert: it uses it, its just not essential.
772 2011-11-23 20:17:17 <graingert> eg u9yiz98rchkb7WZ
773 2011-11-23 20:17:26 <MC1984> what channel does it use
774 2011-11-23 20:17:27 <gmaxwell> graingert: no it uses lfnet irc, not freenode.
775 2011-11-23 20:17:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: fwiw, I was told passthru GPU to VM was impossible a year or so ago, but it just worked when I finally got the hardware and tried it
776 2011-11-23 20:17:40 <Diablo-D3> it never was impossible
777 2011-11-23 20:17:54 <Diablo-D3> it just requires hardware support
778 2011-11-23 20:17:56 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you can't pass through all your graphics cards however!
779 2011-11-23 20:18:06 <MC1984> and is there any way of telling how many old clients on the network
780 2011-11-23 20:18:18 <MC1984> i remember the old ones were causing the slow chain download
781 2011-11-23 20:18:19 <gmaxwell> MC1984: what do you mean by old?
782 2011-11-23 20:18:19 <BlueMatt> MC1984: yes, #bitcoin on lfnet, but it is not the only bootstrap method anymore
783 2011-11-23 20:18:27 <Diablo-D3> which means certain intel server northbridges and any amd 780fx/880fx/980fx northbridge
784 2011-11-23 20:18:31 <graingert> with opengl core performance should be almost native
785 2011-11-23 20:18:32 <BlueMatt> MC1984: actually #bitcoin00 - #bitcoin99
786 2011-11-23 20:18:40 <gmaxwell> MC1984: there are still lots and lots of ones old enough to have the slow chain download.
787 2011-11-23 20:18:51 <Diablo-D3> (fx only, not gx or x)
788 2011-11-23 20:19:00 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thats because a bunch of stuff bas been worked on since, also you still cant do gpu passthrough for second gpus afaik
789 2011-11-23 20:19:11 <Diablo-D3> blueMatt: you can
790 2011-11-23 20:19:20 <Diablo-D3> but it still requires xen
791 2011-11-23 20:19:22 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: why not?
792 2011-11-23 20:19:22 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: since when, also what software?
793 2011-11-23 20:19:32 <MC1984> gmaxwell are there any stats anywhere for it
794 2011-11-23 20:19:34 <BlueMatt> last I heard you couldnt via xen...
795 2011-11-23 20:19:37 <gmaxwell> MC1984: http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/versions.html
796 2011-11-23 20:19:39 <Diablo-D3> you need to also int10 the card, which is a pita
797 2011-11-23 20:19:41 <MC1984> network analysis site or whatever
798 2011-11-23 20:19:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, I was told days before getting the hardware that it was still unsupportable
799 2011-11-23 20:19:50 <MC1984> thanks
800 2011-11-23 20:19:52 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and it is my second GPU I am passing thru fine
801 2011-11-23 20:19:54 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: oh, heh
802 2011-11-23 20:19:56 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: nope, lots of people have done it in xen
803 2011-11-23 20:19:59 <Diablo-D3> but you have to know how xen works
804 2011-11-23 20:20:05 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: sure, I mean KVM
805 2011-11-23 20:20:06 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
806 2011-11-23 20:20:08 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: because it won't let you remove the pci mapping for a card the kernel is currently using for a console.
807 2011-11-23 20:20:11 <Diablo-D3> kvm? who knows
808 2011-11-23 20:20:11 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: nice, I know my next desktop is gonna have that
809 2011-11-23 20:20:16 <Diablo-D3> kvm is a pile of shit
810 2011-11-23 20:20:20 <Diablo-D3> it may work this week and not next
811 2011-11-23 20:20:30 <Diablo-D3> what gmaxwell said is true
812 2011-11-23 20:20:32 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: is it? ;)
813 2011-11-23 20:20:41 <Diablo-D3> which is why people use xen, xen can block cards from dom0 seeing them to begin with
814 2011-11-23 20:20:41 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: xen is a pile of shit, it may work this week and not next ;)
815 2011-11-23 20:20:52 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: say that to nenolod and any other vps provider ;)
816 2011-11-23 20:21:10 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you can't tell Linux to unbind console?
817 2011-11-23 20:21:20 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes, they get stuck on old kernel versions in order to take the xen patches!
818 2011-11-23 20:21:24 <luke-jr> Xen VPS suck
819 2011-11-23 20:21:29 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I couldn't find any way, though it might be possible.
820 2011-11-23 20:21:35 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: nenolod maintains his own xen branch because xen upstream cant code ;)
821 2011-11-23 20:21:44 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: exactly.
822 2011-11-23 20:22:34 <MC1984> goddamn v323 is still the highest proportion
823 2011-11-23 20:22:37 <MC1984> nightmare
824 2011-11-23 20:22:55 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I keep telling him to release it and hes like "meh, later"
825 2011-11-23 20:23:23 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yes but if you sum .24 and .4 they are greater.. though not by a ton.
826 2011-11-23 20:23:46 <MC1984> 24 is crap too
827 2011-11-23 20:23:48 <gmaxwell> also, better behaved nodes are a bit less likely to have free sockets (because they're not busy hanging up on people!)
828 2011-11-23 20:24:03 <gmaxwell> MC1984: no, .24 has the chain feeding bug fixed.
829 2011-11-23 20:24:27 <MC1984> oh
830 2011-11-23 20:24:42 <BlueMatt> MC1984: .23 is greater on irc?
831 2011-11-23 20:24:46 <MC1984> i thought there were actual efficiency improvements in later versions
832 2011-11-23 20:24:57 <BlueMatt> no there werent
833 2011-11-23 20:25:14 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the only relevant thing is that they not hang up on their peers every time they fetch a couple large blocks.,
834 2011-11-23 20:25:36 <MC1984> does it work a bit like bittorrent then
835 2011-11-23 20:25:44 * luke-jr notes that fix was backported to 0.3.20 for Gentoo
836 2011-11-23 20:25:45 <MC1984> and if not why not lol
837 2011-11-23 20:25:46 <gmaxwell> There are some local improvements in .5 to reduce the amount of cpu needed... but most systems are disk i/o bound on initial syncup anyways.
838 2011-11-23 20:26:04 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the actual transfer of data isn't a problem for anyoneâ it's not that much data!
839 2011-11-23 20:26:12 <luke-jr> MC1984: BitTorrent is totally different; they CAN'T work the same because they do different things
840 2011-11-23 20:26:34 <MC1984> ok
841 2011-11-23 20:26:41 eueueue has quit (Quit: Saindo)
842 2011-11-23 20:26:45 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not really
843 2011-11-23 20:26:54 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: bitcoin clients *could* do I/O more efficiently
844 2011-11-23 20:27:02 <luke-jr> ie, not open, write, close, sync, repeat
845 2011-11-23 20:27:06 <gmaxwell> Yes yes.. the local IO for validation is terrible.
846 2011-11-23 20:27:12 <luke-jr> just open, write * inf, close, sync
847 2011-11-23 20:27:14 <wumpus> yes they could, but he is right on how it is now...
848 2011-11-23 20:27:17 <gmaxwell> It's why syncup on an ssd is easily 10x faster.
849 2011-11-23 20:27:34 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it wears the SSD more too tho ;)
850 2011-11-23 20:27:40 <gmaxwell> but the actual transfer of the blocks isn't a big issue, except for crappy old peers that hang up on you. :)
851 2011-11-23 20:27:52 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
852 2011-11-23 20:27:59 * BlueMatt prefers syncing on tmpfs
853 2011-11-23 20:28:04 <gmaxwell> also, ending up with 2gb of db logs on a new client is more than a little crazy.
854 2011-11-23 20:28:40 <MC1984> actually im running syncup on an ssd system right now and its still slow
855 2011-11-23 20:28:47 <BlueMatt> then use tmpfs
856 2011-11-23 20:28:56 * luke-jr notes some SSD are slower than magnetics
857 2011-11-23 20:28:57 <gmaxwell> MC1984: define slow?
858 2011-11-23 20:29:09 <MC1984> um
859 2011-11-23 20:29:30 <gmaxwell> and yea, depends on the FS and SSD.. but e.g. taking 2 hours rather than 14, for example.
860 2011-11-23 20:29:32 <MC1984> 18 days out of date and its taken like an hour to get to 80% sync......
861 2011-11-23 20:30:24 <MC1984> im assuming the % represents the % of blocks between last sync and now, cos that was never explained
862 2011-11-23 20:30:40 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs:: 18 days at current transaction rates is more than the workload of the whole year of 2009.
863 2011-11-23 20:31:00 <luke-jr> someone should hack the installer to download the initial blockchain if there's none already present :P
864 2011-11-23 20:31:29 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: only because of all the spam
865 2011-11-23 20:31:36 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: not only.
866 2011-11-23 20:31:48 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
867 2011-11-23 20:31:55 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: there really is more activity now, http://ecdsa.org/stats.html
868 2011-11-23 20:33:51 iocor has joined
869 2011-11-23 20:34:33 <graingert> nice
870 2011-11-23 20:34:42 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: though it would be nice if you could convince [Tycho] that spam is an actual problem which adversely impacts the usability of bitcoin too. :)
871 2011-11-23 20:35:19 <[Tycho]> What spam ?
872 2011-11-23 20:36:04 <BlueMatt> block chain spam
873 2011-11-23 20:36:25 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: well there are different criteria different people have, one that pissed me off a lot was the result of the firstbits (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Firstbits) landgrab.
874 2011-11-23 20:36:28 <[Tycho]> Is it unwanted flood ?
875 2011-11-23 20:36:32 cande has joined
876 2011-11-23 20:36:44 <graingert> landgrab?
877 2011-11-23 20:37:17 <gmaxwell> There are now a couple megabytes of 1e-8 transactions stored in the chain forever because of jerkfaces 'registering' first bits addresses for every word in /usr/share/dict/words with the hopes of selling them later (I assume!)
878 2011-11-23 20:37:22 <[Tycho]> How does firstbits promotes spam ?
879 2011-11-23 20:37:35 <graingert> lol
880 2011-11-23 20:37:37 <gmaxwell> Because to register a prefix to a particular address you send some bitcoin to the prefix.
881 2011-11-23 20:37:47 <Diablo-D3> Ive never heard of it
882 2011-11-23 20:37:56 <[Tycho]> Those are addresses without privkeys ?
883 2011-11-23 20:38:04 <gmaxwell> No. They have privkeys.
884 2011-11-23 20:38:07 <graingert> vanitygen
885 2011-11-23 20:38:09 <[Tycho]> I need to mine some nice addresses too...
886 2011-11-23 20:38:29 <gmaxwell> People use a vanity generator to produce '1bob' or whatever, then send 1e-8 to it. So that forever '1bob' in firstbits is that address.
887 2011-11-23 20:38:51 <BlueMatt> its a HUGE waste of space on my drive and everyone else's
888 2011-11-23 20:39:04 <[Tycho]> You should know that I really care about blockchain. A couple of days ago I reduced my transactions size by 9%
889 2011-11-23 20:39:05 <Diablo-D3> whats considered a short firstbits?
890 2011-11-23 20:39:23 <gmaxwell> So then they feed a dictionary to vanity gen and generate zillions. Ironically this very practice has probably killed the viability of firtbits because who the hell wants a private key someone else knows and most of good names are now taken.
891 2011-11-23 20:39:41 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: you finally adopted sendmany? :)
892 2011-11-23 20:40:02 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: no, why ? I'm just sending change to pubkey instead of address.
893 2011-11-23 20:40:12 <BlueMatt> you still dont use sendmany?
894 2011-11-23 20:40:18 <[Tycho]> No.
895 2011-11-23 20:40:18 <BlueMatt> are you fucking kidding me?
896 2011-11-23 20:40:18 <graingert> I propose secondbits
897 2011-11-23 20:40:21 <gmaxwell> ...
898 2011-11-23 20:40:28 <[Tycho]> Lastbits ftw
899 2011-11-23 20:40:44 <graingert> lastbits wouldn't be static
900 2011-11-23 20:40:46 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: no.
901 2011-11-23 20:40:58 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: is there a reason why not?
902 2011-11-23 20:40:59 <gmaxwell> graingert: I was thinking of running one where you have to send _me_ .1 btc to register. :) But I'm lazy.
903 2011-11-23 20:41:04 <[Tycho]> Well.... Dynamic Lastbits !
904 2011-11-23 20:41:10 <graingert> lol
905 2011-11-23 20:41:30 <graingert> perhaps a namecoin likeblockchain
906 2011-11-23 20:41:32 <graingert> for registering them
907 2011-11-23 20:41:45 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: you really should use sendmany at least for your automatic payouts. It will reduce the blockchain size _and_ the processing required for people to validate your transactions.
908 2011-11-23 20:41:46 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: may be, but I can't remember any.
909 2011-11-23 20:41:50 <graingert> completely outside of bitcoin chain
910 2011-11-23 20:42:04 <graingert> you have to pay regcoin
911 2011-11-23 20:42:04 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: so why not do it?
912 2011-11-23 20:42:12 <graingert> to reg your bitcoin address
913 2011-11-23 20:42:20 <cocktopus> https://btc.to/
914 2011-11-23 20:42:21 <cocktopus> ftw
915 2011-11-23 20:42:39 <[Tycho]> It would require me to change my pool core, written in exotic language.
916 2011-11-23 20:42:45 <gmaxwell> (validation for payments is O(N) on transactions ... sendmany gives you a good e.g. 64x is pretty reasonable reduction in the number of transactions)
917 2011-11-23 20:43:02 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: and?
918 2011-11-23 20:43:03 <cocktopus> exotic, huh. is it written in brainfuck?
919 2011-11-23 20:43:10 <gmaxwell> Intercal.
920 2011-11-23 20:43:35 <[Tycho]> "official bitcoin address shortener of Mt. Gox", oh...
921 2011-11-23 20:43:38 ThomasV has joined
922 2011-11-23 20:43:42 <da2ce7> lol
923 2011-11-23 20:44:02 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: I was realy thinking about it.
924 2011-11-23 20:44:11 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: in any case, you're seriously late to the game on that one and it does tax the block chain. So I'm glad you care, but there is more you could do.
925 2011-11-23 20:44:17 ThomasV has quit (Client Quit)
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927 2011-11-23 20:44:30 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: if bitcoind itself was able to delay and queue payments for sendmany would that help you?
928 2011-11-23 20:44:36 ThomasV has joined
929 2011-11-23 20:44:49 <[Tycho]> I'm even including others sendmany TXes in my blocks.
930 2011-11-23 20:45:12 <BlueMatt> and that is something worth advertising why?
931 2011-11-23 20:45:20 <BlueMatt> if you didnt it would be a reason for everyone to move off your pool
932 2011-11-23 20:45:21 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: no, there is no way to do this.
933 2011-11-23 20:45:37 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: so is .. _everyone_ else, and everyone else has been foreverish.
934 2011-11-23 20:45:55 <[Tycho]> Foreverish ?
935 2011-11-23 20:46:09 HaltingState has joined
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938 2011-11-23 20:46:13 <BlueMatt> even clients before sendmany came out will include sendmany txes in blocks
939 2011-11-23 20:46:22 <BlueMatt> (well aside from IsStandard restrictions)
940 2011-11-23 20:46:25 <gmaxwell> well, the whole year (can you remember 2010? it was so long ago!)
941 2011-11-23 20:46:31 <[Tycho]> I remember when almost noone did and slush asked me for it. (but I may be wrong)
942 2011-11-23 20:46:54 <BlueMatt> all you have to do is update to something that came out almost a year ago...
943 2011-11-23 20:47:13 <[Tycho]> Looks like you are really concerned about that.
944 2011-11-23 20:47:37 <BlueMatt> but seriously, not using sendmany is reason enough that people should seriously consider changing pools
945 2011-11-23 20:47:40 <graingert> read the topic
946 2011-11-23 20:47:49 <graingert> see the bit in capshlock
947 2011-11-23 20:48:20 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: I had the same idea, but delaying TXes won't allow it to return TX hashes for the first ones.
948 2011-11-23 20:48:53 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: right, you couldn't get the txid until later. You could get a handle that would only be meaningful for you, which you could use to get the real txid after it issues.
949 2011-11-23 20:48:53 <MC1984> why are theyre two block dat files
950 2011-11-23 20:49:03 <MC1984> damn they add up to 1gb now
951 2011-11-23 20:49:04 <[Tycho]> graingert: it's not related to me. My client supports sendmany.
952 2011-11-23 20:49:26 <BlueMatt> graingert: that is largely for people running < 0.3.24
953 2011-11-23 20:49:46 <MC1984> can i delete one of them
954 2011-11-23 20:50:12 <graingert> need to start kulling things, and releasing an SPV client
955 2011-11-23 20:50:12 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: don't worry, I will think about it.
956 2011-11-23 20:50:14 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: in general if you've designed yourself into a corner so you can't update your practices as bitcoin evolves, thats bad for both you and for bitcoin. Sounds like your payment stuff is harder to change than your validation rules though.
957 2011-11-23 20:50:52 <gmaxwell> (and the latter is more important for bitcoin, of courseâ but making a lot of small freestanding txn for pool payments is a not-good thing)
958 2011-11-23 20:50:57 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: no, I'm not.
959 2011-11-23 20:51:26 megatorus has joined
960 2011-11-23 20:51:32 <[Tycho]> I will save everyone !
961 2011-11-23 20:51:35 <[Tycho]> eventually
962 2011-11-23 20:53:57 <gmaxwell> hah.
963 2011-11-23 20:54:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I do think it would be a lot easier to get people to use sendmany if we had some kind of way to get bitcoin to queue the txn.
964 2011-11-23 20:55:02 <[Tycho]> I don't think that anyone needs that.
965 2011-11-23 20:55:12 <[Tycho]> Sendmany is already easy to use.
966 2011-11-23 20:55:55 <[Tycho]> Except for failing the entire TX if one address is invalid, if I remember correctly.
967 2011-11-23 20:56:17 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: It's a bit of a pain if your software is all event driven. E.g. if you're doing txn fired off of a webpage.. and you want to do a txn as standalone if nothing shows up to merge with it in the next minute.
968 2011-11-23 20:56:30 <gmaxwell> Yes, it does thatâ one address bad makes it fail the RPC.
969 2011-11-23 20:57:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it would be nice for bitcoin to have good account management etc as well, but as it stands using bitcoin as your only backend and not having an additional db to handle users/etc currently isnt really an option...
970 2011-11-23 20:58:27 <gmaxwell> It's true, but account management can still all be event driven. Having to have some extra sendqueue management is a burden if not much of one.
971 2011-11-23 20:58:28 <megatorus> which is as it should be, imo. bitcoin should concentrate on being a good ... whatever it is :), and leave the accounting to accounting software.
972 2011-11-23 20:58:45 <megatorus> as long as bitcoin client gets a nice api to interface with
973 2011-11-23 20:59:00 <gmaxwell> Andâ for features with blockchain quality of life impactâ "leave the accounting to accounting software" isn't an answer, since _everyone else_ wants you to use sendmany.
974 2011-11-23 20:59:06 <BlueMatt> I agree, I think queue management for sendmany is outside the scope of bitcoin
975 2011-11-23 20:59:32 <gmaxwell> Because a failure to use sendmany when you otherwise could is an externalized cost and will continue to be an externalized cost so long as there are free transactions.
976 2011-11-23 20:59:40 <megatorus> gmaxwell: well, presumably it also costs more to send N individual tx than 1 sendmany.
977 2011-11-23 20:59:49 <megatorus> so let the incentives take care of themselves
978 2011-11-23 21:00:11 <gmaxwell> It's incompatble to say that and to also take a strong position on wanting to allows as much free txn as possible.
979 2011-11-23 21:00:34 <BlueMatt> who ever said allow as much free txn as possible?
980 2011-11-23 21:00:42 <megatorus> i never said anything about free tx. :P (though that's not a bad idea heh)
981 2011-11-23 21:00:44 <gmaxwell> Personally, I'd rather just make prudence as easily as possible rather than screwing things up by encouraging higher fees.
982 2011-11-23 21:01:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: My comment there was focused squarely on [Tycho], in fact. :)
983 2011-11-23 21:01:02 <[Tycho]> It was me.
984 2011-11-23 21:01:12 <BlueMatt> mmm
985 2011-11-23 21:01:24 <megatorus> well, it's not a bad point, and if anyone wants to code that in, i'm sure gavin et all will merge :)
986 2011-11-23 21:01:48 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well I dont think any kind of accounting system should be in bitcoin's backend, that said I have no problem putting it further up in bitcoin, like in the rpc layer
987 2011-11-23 21:01:52 <gmaxwell> And it's a position I generally agree with: free txn it's an advantage of bitcoin we want to keep as much as we can. But the cost is that we can't use market force to encourage efficient blockchain management.
988 2011-11-23 21:02:24 <[Tycho]> Also I think that we should have light clients available to users.
989 2011-11-23 21:02:29 <megatorus> since disk space is dirt cheap... is it really such a big issue
990 2011-11-23 21:02:57 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: very, very true
991 2011-11-23 21:03:13 <megatorus> and speed up initial blockchain dl
992 2011-11-23 21:03:17 <gmaxwell> megatorus: ... diskspace times every single full validating node, plus the processing power to validate Nx more transactions. It is a "big issue", perhaps not? but it materially impacts the scalability of bitcoinâ especially while we don't have good lite node software.
993 2011-11-23 21:03:24 <[Tycho]> I don't like the fact that there is only one client.
994 2011-11-23 21:03:32 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: Hey, there is more than one.
995 2011-11-23 21:03:40 <[Tycho]> Well, may be 1.5
996 2011-11-23 21:03:49 <gmaxwell> megatorus: ... the blockchain download is quite fast when there are no transactions!
997 2011-11-23 21:04:00 <megatorus> gmaxwell: lol that's true
998 2011-11-23 21:04:08 <megatorus> it's even faster when there are no blocks
999 2011-11-23 21:04:16 <gmaxwell> megatorus: and thats the point... sendmany gives you an N-fold reduction in transactions.
1000 2011-11-23 21:04:40 <gmaxwell> megatorus: blocks are quite cheap when they're empty... two sha256 calculations.. and look up the prev. it's pretty much free.
1001 2011-11-23 21:04:46 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: bitcoinj is very nice, its just that no one has bothered to write a nice client on it yet...
1002 2011-11-23 21:04:58 <gmaxwell> Validating the transactions is almost all the cost of processing a new block.
1003 2011-11-23 21:05:49 <graingert> BlueMatt: there is a nice client
1004 2011-11-23 21:05:59 <BlueMatt> graingert: desktop client?
1005 2011-11-23 21:06:00 <megatorus> hm, good point, i guess for a sendmany you only have one sigcheck, well, (numinputs) sigchecks, so that would probably be helpful
1006 2011-11-23 21:06:23 <graingert> http://multibit.org/
1007 2011-11-23 21:06:43 <graingert> shame it doesn't do javaws
1008 2011-11-23 21:07:12 <gmaxwell> megatorus: yes. It basically reduces the cpu/disk-IO load by the number of txn you batch... and it reduces the size per output to ~1/3rd marginally (once you have more than a few)
1009 2011-11-23 21:07:52 <BlueMatt> graingert: nice, I hadnt seen that
1010 2011-11-23 21:08:49 <gmaxwell> megatorus: anyone with an average txn processing rate of N outputs per minute could get an N fold reduction in chainburden (up to 64x or so when they start becoming big enough to require fees) without significantly bothering their users. (just adding upto a minute of queuing delay, which isn't much compared to the 10 minute block time)
1011 2011-11-23 21:09:56 <megatorus> sounds like a pretty good deal... so i guess then the question becomes... should bundling really be part of bitcoin, or can we just have a separate tx queuing layer that merchants can use?
1012 2011-11-23 21:10:32 <gmaxwell> (Using sendmany also helps because you'll end up with fewer chain inputs in your wallet, which makes the wallet operations faster. esp since some of the input selection logic can go exp-time on unconfirmed change)
1013 2011-11-23 21:11:27 <gmaxwell> megatorus: yea, I dunno. Why run two daemons instead of one? Thats why I was asking [Tycho] thoughâ what would make it acceptable for him to deploy.
1014 2011-11-23 21:12:24 <[Tycho]> I don't think that any users or merchants will need automatic queuer.
1015 2011-11-23 21:12:46 <[Tycho]> It's easy enough to implement in the custom code.
1016 2011-11-23 21:13:04 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: the number of people who've declined to use sendmany it because it requires changing their code suggests otherwise. You're not doing well to make your own case there!
1017 2011-11-23 21:13:25 <[Tycho]> I'm not the only one ?
1018 2011-11-23 21:13:27 <megatorus> mmm well, maybe tycho can make his queuer foss, so others can easily pick it up :)
1019 2011-11-23 21:14:37 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: I think you're the only pool that doesn't. But at lot of other things don't either, e.g. I don't think mtgox does, for example.
1020 2011-11-23 21:15:16 <gmaxwell> The gambling sites don't, and one I worked with specifically didn't because they had an event driven design and didn't want to maintain a processess to push payments.
1021 2011-11-23 21:15:49 <gmaxwell> (event driven, in this context, e.g. user pushes {pay} and that same process sends the rpc call to bitcoin)
1022 2011-11-23 21:17:30 <[Tycho]> Well, user-driven payments are too distant from each other to be packed.
1023 2011-11-23 21:17:48 <graingert> mtgox does it
1024 2011-11-23 21:17:50 gfinn has joined
1025 2011-11-23 21:18:17 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: depending on your volume, they're not if you're willing to queue them for 60 seconds.
1026 2011-11-23 21:19:17 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1027 2011-11-23 21:19:35 <gmaxwell> graingert: since when? Is that new?
1028 2011-11-23 21:19:46 <graingert> they claim to anyway
1029 2011-11-23 21:19:53 <graingert> when you withdraw small amounts
1030 2011-11-23 21:19:58 <gmaxwell> The interface appears to give you a txnid instantly, which suggests they aren't batching.
1031 2011-11-23 21:20:19 <gmaxwell> In any case, good for them if they've started.
1032 2011-11-23 21:22:27 TD has joined
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1034 2011-11-23 21:23:34 <diki> wow
1035 2011-11-23 21:23:40 <diki> doom 3 source released on github
1036 2011-11-23 21:23:47 <[Tycho]> Well, at least it almost reports which address was incorrect.
1037 2011-11-23 21:23:57 <BlueMatt> diki: I wonder if they take pull requests...
1038 2011-11-23 21:24:07 <luke-jr> diki: legally?
1039 2011-11-23 21:24:14 <diki> luke-jr:not certain
1040 2011-11-23 21:24:44 <graingert> yes
1041 2011-11-23 21:24:48 <graingert> legally
1042 2011-11-23 21:25:34 <diki> yup confirming
1043 2011-11-23 21:25:42 <diki> BlueMatt:something you have in mind?
1044 2011-11-23 21:25:49 <diki> C++ is totally up your alley
1045 2011-11-23 21:26:09 <BlueMatt> diki: no, I was just wondering
1046 2011-11-23 21:27:18 <diki> I've always wondered about the controls
1047 2011-11-23 21:27:27 <diki> were they in the main loop or seperate thread
1048 2011-11-23 21:27:44 <diki> i mean...the main loop has a lot of things to do, i can't imagine it being fast enough for input from kb/mouse
1049 2011-11-23 21:28:19 <graingert> well you'd queue them if you wanted to do that
1050 2011-11-23 21:28:46 <graingert> usually you don't do anything intensive in the main loop or EDT as java has
1051 2011-11-23 21:29:04 <graingert> you just spawn a thread to handle large amounts of work
1052 2011-11-23 21:29:26 <[Tycho]> I wonder why there is an error "Invalid parameter, duplicated address: " in sendmany...
1053 2011-11-23 21:31:30 <diki> when you mentioned java
1054 2011-11-23 21:31:41 <diki> i also cannot understand...can that language spawn threads?
1055 2011-11-23 21:38:23 <copumpkin> o.O
1056 2011-11-23 21:38:59 <diki> But i am more curious about python
1057 2011-11-23 21:39:11 <diki> i see guiminer and cant believe if it is using threads or not
1058 2011-11-23 21:39:21 <diki> since it's monitoring a process and outputting hashrate
1059 2011-11-23 21:39:26 <[Tycho]> Yes, it does.
1060 2011-11-23 21:39:32 <diki> while at the same time allowing you to start stop stuff
1061 2011-11-23 21:39:56 <[Tycho]> (I'm talking about m0mchil's miner)
1062 2011-11-23 21:40:14 <[Tycho]> At least the versions with LP support.
1063 2011-11-23 21:40:30 <[Tycho]> It uses one thread for network and one for mining. May be more.
1064 2011-11-23 21:42:40 <diki> i think i found the main entry point of doom 3
1065 2011-11-23 21:42:41 <diki> MainWndProc
1066 2011-11-23 21:42:49 <diki> i really hope that is it
1067 2011-11-23 21:43:10 <tcatm> BlueMatt: vm is booting now, I see a login prompt on vnc, but: Connection timed out during banner exchange
1068 2011-11-23 21:43:51 <BlueMatt> tcatm: common issue when its too slow, try changing timeout in (iirc) libexec/on-target, copy-to-target, copy-from-target, and maybe others
1069 2011-11-23 21:46:57 <tcatm> maybe it should communicate with the target via stdio?
1070 2011-11-23 21:47:29 <tcatm> i.e. replace login programm with something that outputs a magic string and spawns a shell
1071 2011-11-23 21:47:47 <luke-jr> â¦
1072 2011-11-23 21:47:56 <luke-jr> does gitian really use VNC?
1073 2011-11-23 21:48:23 <tcatm> it doesn't use it but you could connect via VNC to see what is happening
1074 2011-11-23 21:48:42 <graingert> can't you just ssh in?
1075 2011-11-23 21:48:55 <graingert> gitian could launch a screen process
1076 2011-11-23 21:49:01 <graingert> which one could connect to
1077 2011-11-23 21:49:23 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: no, ssh
1078 2011-11-23 21:49:46 <BlueMatt> gitian does use ssh, but it times out connecting if your vm is running wayyy too slow
1079 2011-11-23 21:50:02 <BlueMatt> not using a login prompt wont help that
1080 2011-11-23 21:50:17 <tcatm> or it could simply retry a few times
1081 2011-11-23 21:50:18 <graingert> why would VNC work
1082 2011-11-23 21:50:24 <graingert> if ssh times out?
1083 2011-11-23 21:50:38 <tcatm> 5 seconds is very little time for booting
1084 2011-11-23 21:50:47 <tcatm> (and I'm using kvm now)
1085 2011-11-23 21:50:53 <BlueMatt> well ok, it should retry and maybe have a longer timeout, but it doesnt effect anyone if your using kvm
1086 2011-11-23 21:51:03 <BlueMatt> ...oh
1087 2011-11-23 21:51:07 <diki> i really hate tracing
1088 2011-11-23 21:51:55 <tcatm> grub already waits for 3 seconds
1089 2011-11-23 21:52:30 <BlueMatt> well pull-req a longer ssh timout
1090 2011-11-23 21:53:28 <tcatm> maybe there's a problem somewhere
1091 2011-11-23 21:53:36 <tcatm> e.g. it hangs on my non-standard network setup
1092 2011-11-23 21:54:16 <tcatm> 82 seconds to boot with disk image on a ramdisk and using kvm
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1094 2011-11-23 21:55:21 <BlueMatt> ouch
1095 2011-11-23 22:07:02 <graingert> nice one
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