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 35 2011-11-25 01:16:09 <graingert> tcatm: heya
 36 2011-11-25 01:16:28 <graingert> tcatm: https://github.com/graingert/bitcoin.org Created new download system, based off of Pidgin.im
 37 2011-11-25 01:17:52 <graingert> not yet finished
 38 2011-11-25 01:17:55 <tcatm> *clones repo*
 39 2011-11-25 01:18:01 <graingert> just showing direction
 40 2011-11-25 01:18:49 <graingert> not sure if it will work - as I don't want to push it live
 41 2011-11-25 01:19:05 <graingert> have you got a dev host?
 42 2011-11-25 01:19:10 <graingert> only added ubuntu
 43 2011-11-25 01:19:22 devrandom has joined
 44 2011-11-25 01:19:35 <graingert> and no scripts yet
 45 2011-11-25 01:19:51 <graingert> but I'm trying to get it to degrade nicely with <noscript>
 46 2011-11-25 01:19:54 <luke-jr_> graingert: Pidgin.im only has one program
 47 2011-11-25 01:20:06 <luke-jr_> graingert: Bitcoin.org should have all the functional Bitcoin clients (3 so far)
 48 2011-11-25 01:20:15 <tcatm> graingert: jekyll --server --auto -> localhost:4000
 49 2011-11-25 01:20:25 <luke-jr_> and probably both stable and development versions at least
 50 2011-11-25 01:22:18 <tcatm> I'd suggest using the same layout as in post.html (span5 as sidebar + span11 for content)
 51 2011-11-25 01:22:26 <graingert> ah
 52 2011-11-25 01:22:29 <graingert> kk
 53 2011-11-25 01:22:37 <graingert> not the built in sidebar?
 54 2011-11-25 01:23:11 * luke-jr_ pokes graingert
 55 2011-11-25 01:23:36 <graingert> yo
 56 2011-11-25 01:23:50 <tcatm> nope. that's for the fluid layout but I think we should use a fixed layout for now
 57 2011-11-25 01:23:55 <graingert> okay
 58 2011-11-25 01:24:43 <tcatm> you can add class="unstyled" to <ul> to remove the bullets
 59 2011-11-25 01:24:55 <graingert> ah yes
 60 2011-11-25 01:25:00 <graingert> send me une pull
 61 2011-11-25 01:25:03 <luke-jr_> graingert: how's it show the multiple clients/versions? :p
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 64 2011-11-25 01:27:56 <graingert> it doesn't at the moment
 65 2011-11-25 01:28:02 <graingert> as it only works for ubuntu
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 67 2011-11-25 01:28:12 <graingert> but you could add the clients to each page
 68 2011-11-25 01:28:16 <graingert> eg
 69 2011-11-25 01:28:49 <graingert> download/windows.html > could have a list of versions
 70 2011-11-25 01:29:05 <luke-jr_> >_<
 71 2011-11-25 01:29:14 <graingert> I'm not sure people are really that bothered about old versions
 72 2011-11-25 01:29:27 <luke-jr_> not talking about old.
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 74 2011-11-25 01:29:39 <graingert> do you mean things like MultiBit?
 75 2011-11-25 01:29:42 <luke-jr_> like 0.5.0 and 0.6.0 beta 1
 76 2011-11-25 01:29:56 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 77 2011-11-25 01:30:01 <luke-jr_> for clients, I mean bitcoind, wxBitcoin, and Bitcoin-Qt
 78 2011-11-25 01:30:08 <luke-jr_> (probably in reverse order)
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 80 2011-11-25 01:30:34 <graingert> keep bitcoind, any unsupported or unreleased versions hidden
 81 2011-11-25 01:30:45 <graingert> technical people will know how to get those
 82 2011-11-25 01:31:18 <luke-jr_> well, at least RCs probably need more end user testing
 83 2011-11-25 01:31:36 <luke-jr_> in any case, that still leaves Bitcoin-Qt 0.5.0 and wxBitcoin 0.4.1
 84 2011-11-25 01:31:55 <graingert> keep bitcoind, any unsupported, unreleased or unmaintained versions hidden
 85 2011-11-25 01:31:56 <tcatm> I don't think we should hide information. Just make the important stuff more promiment.
 86 2011-11-25 01:32:08 <graingert> that's what I meant by hidden
 87 2011-11-25 01:32:18 <graingert> beta etc can be seen on github
 88 2011-11-25 01:32:31 <graingert> and when you see the ubuntu repo you can see the release channels
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 90 2011-11-25 01:33:26 <luke-jr_> graingert: RC isn't beta; RC needs testing
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 92 2011-11-25 01:33:34 <luke-jr_> and again, that still leaves Bitcoin-Qt 0.5.0 and wxBitcoin 0.4.1
 93 2011-11-25 01:33:52 <tcatm> agreed, though RC should *never* be used in production
 94 2011-11-25 01:34:19 <luke-jr_> yes, RCs should be clearly noted as such
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 96 2011-11-25 01:34:35 <luke-jr_> but should be more prominent so people DO test them
 97 2011-11-25 01:34:48 <tcatm> I imagine some kind of table layout could work for older versions and RCs
 98 2011-11-25 01:34:58 <luke-jr_> so when 0.6 RCs come out, keep 0.5.x as the main release, but show RCs as a testing option
 99 2011-11-25 01:34:59 <tcatm> rows for versions, columns for operating system download links
100 2011-11-25 01:35:23 <luke-jr_> tcatm: sounds like a good idea, but what about multiple clients?
101 2011-11-25 01:35:29 <graingert> wxBitcoin is unmaintained
102 2011-11-25 01:35:31 <tcatm> multiple clients?
103 2011-11-25 01:35:36 <luke-jr_> graingert: 0.4.1 was just released.
104 2011-11-25 01:35:36 <tcatm> like 0.4.1 and 0.5.0?
105 2011-11-25 01:35:44 <graingert> who maintains it?
106 2011-11-25 01:35:51 zeiris has quit (Quit: segfault)
107 2011-11-25 01:35:51 <luke-jr_> tcatm: like wxBitcoin and Bitcoin-Qt, and bitcoind
108 2011-11-25 01:36:01 <luke-jr_> graingert: Gavin and I cobbled together 0.4.1
109 2011-11-25 01:36:06 <tcatm> I'd just show 0.4.1 under older versions for now (as it has a lower version number than 0.5.0)
110 2011-11-25 01:36:17 <graingert> keep bitcoind, any unsupported, unreleased, unmaintained or cobbled together versions hidden
111 2011-11-25 01:36:28 <tcatm> maybe add a terse changelog below each version with the most important stuff
112 2011-11-25 01:37:10 <luke-jr_> graingert: all Bitcoin clients today are cobbled together :0
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114 2011-11-25 01:37:28 <luke-jr_> wxBitcoin should be just as prominent than Bitcoin-Qt right now
115 2011-11-25 01:37:36 <graingert> keep bitcoind, any unsupported, unreleased, unmaintained or wx versions hidden
116 2011-11-25 01:37:44 <luke-jr_> Bitcoin-Qt may be the future, but wxBitcoin is what most people use and has been much better tested
117 2011-11-25 01:38:02 <graingert> this is now way too political for me
118 2011-11-25 01:38:12 <luke-jr_> graingert: you're the only one forcing politics on it :P
119 2011-11-25 01:38:35 <graingert> I advocate a simple download interface
120 2011-11-25 01:38:43 <graingert> with only the latest stable version provided
121 2011-11-25 01:39:13 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
122 2011-11-25 01:39:40 <luke-jr_> graingert: you advocate a centralized system
123 2011-11-25 01:39:50 <luke-jr_> wxBitcoin 0.4.1 is more stable than Bitcoin-Qt 0.5.0
124 2011-11-25 01:40:12 <graingert> we're going to need a blockchain for bitcoin clients
125 2011-11-25 01:40:34 <luke-jr_> nonsense, just don't run bitcoin.org in a biased manner
126 2011-11-25 01:40:44 semb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
127 2011-11-25 01:40:45 <graingert> against whom?
128 2011-11-25 01:40:50 <graingert> or for whom?
129 2011-11-25 01:40:54 <tcatm> luke-jr_: contribute actual code. that will get us somewhere :)
130 2011-11-25 01:41:11 <luke-jr_> graingert: the point is NO bias.
131 2011-11-25 01:41:20 <luke-jr_> tcatm: fair enough :P
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135 2011-11-25 01:42:15 <graingert> and overcomplicate the site
136 2011-11-25 01:42:24 <graingert> perhaps
137 2011-11-25 01:42:29 <luke-jr_> http://xmpp.org/xmpp-software/clients/ <-- better for bitcoin.org at least in the long run
138 2011-11-25 01:42:31 <graingert> /download/advanced.html
139 2011-11-25 01:42:48 <tcatm> /download/archive.html would be good I think
140 2011-11-25 01:42:57 <luke-jr_> graingert: two options "original client" and "next gen client" is not overcomplicated
141 2011-11-25 01:43:11 <luke-jr_> tcatm: we're talking about two CURRENT clients :p
142 2011-11-25 01:43:18 <graingert> I want to include clients like bitcoinj, MultiBit etc
143 2011-11-25 01:43:26 <tcatm> I'm thinking about all previous versions.
144 2011-11-25 01:43:32 <graingert> perhaps in alternative-clients.html
145 2011-11-25 01:43:35 <tcatm> i.e. down to 0.1.5
146 2011-11-25 01:43:40 <graingert> we could show a list like xmpp have
147 2011-11-25 01:43:54 <graingert> and then in archive.html we show older versions
148 2011-11-25 01:43:56 <luke-jr_> afaik BitcoinJ/MultiBit don't work yet
149 2011-11-25 01:44:15 <tcatm> so one purpose of the archive page would to show release dates for all bitcoin versions
150 2011-11-25 01:44:17 <luke-jr_> tcatm: in the case of Bitcoin, I don't think we should help anyone get old stuff
151 2011-11-25 01:44:18 <graingert> not what the site shows
152 2011-11-25 01:44:35 <luke-jr_> old stuff = security/compatibility issues
153 2011-11-25 01:44:46 <graingert> luke-jr_: just downloading MultiBit
154 2011-11-25 01:44:59 <tcatm> luke-jr_: a warning message will suffice
155 2011-11-25 01:45:06 <graingert> you're the one advocating old stuff
156 2011-11-25 01:45:16 <luke-jr_> graingert: no, I'm only advocating current releases
157 2011-11-25 01:45:21 <luke-jr_> wxBitcoin 0.4.1 and Bitcoin-Qt 0.5.0
158 2011-11-25 01:46:54 <graingert> luke-jr_: multibit seems to work fine with me
159 2011-11-25 01:47:12 <graingert> syncing with network is unnervingly fast
160 2011-11-25 01:47:33 marf_away has joined
161 2011-11-25 01:47:34 <graingert> I thought it was an SPV anyway
162 2011-11-25 01:49:14 <tcatm> graingert: wget -O- http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ReH3Sq9L|git am
163 2011-11-25 01:49:26 <graingert> ?
164 2011-11-25 01:49:27 <luke-jr_> graingert: 0.1.3?
165 2011-11-25 01:49:48 <luke-jr_> if their latest stable release works, I see no reason not to put it on the site too
166 2011-11-25 01:50:00 <graingert> tcatm: what's wrong with github :p
167 2011-11-25 01:50:19 <tcatm> it's easier this way :)
168 2011-11-25 01:50:36 <graingert> I'd recommend making a new branch on the official repo
169 2011-11-25 01:51:06 tomat has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
170 2011-11-25 01:51:09 * luke-jr_ peers
171 2011-11-25 01:51:23 <luke-jr_> MultiBit seems to use "nanocoins" to refer to satoshis :|
172 2011-11-25 01:51:24 <luke-jr_> ugly
173 2011-11-25 01:51:38 <graingert> right I'm off to bed
174 2011-11-25 01:51:39 <luke-jr_> why do people love SI so much yet fail so hard at using it right?
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177 2011-11-25 01:54:15 <tcatm> ;;later tell graingert download page branch: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/tree/downloadpage
178 2011-11-25 01:54:16 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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218 2011-11-25 03:53:14 <Diablo-D3> lol
219 2011-11-25 03:53:18 <Diablo-D3> I almost have 666 karma on HN
220 2011-11-25 03:54:13 btginsb has joined
221 2011-11-25 03:54:30 <btginsb> has anyone been having issues with the mtgox api lately?
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224 2011-11-25 04:07:28 <btginsb> has anyone been having issues with the mtgox api lately?
225 2011-11-25 04:07:51 <BlueMatt> ask in #mtgox maybe?
226 2011-11-25 04:08:05 <btginsb> alright
227 2011-11-25 04:08:05 <BlueMatt> I think MagicalTux might be online
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313 2011-11-25 08:43:14 FellowTraveler has joined
314 2011-11-25 08:43:17 <FellowTraveler> hi all
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322 2011-11-25 09:15:21 <Lolcust_Backup> FellowTraveler hi fellow traveler !
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341 2011-11-25 09:53:49 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r261 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Message.java: Minor comment reformatting, dead code elimination.
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345 2011-11-25 10:12:33 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r262 /trunk/tests/com/google/bitcoin/core/SpeedTest.java: Remove SpeedTest as it's not generally useful to have in the test suite.
346 2011-11-25 10:13:59 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r263 /trunk/ (TODO tests/com/google/bitcoin/core/Manipulator.java): Delete some dead code.
347 2011-11-25 10:28:06 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r264 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Message.java: Make bitcoinSerialize() return a copy by default, provide an unsafeBitcoinSerialize() method for high performance applications that are willing to deal with the extra API complexity.
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353 2011-11-25 10:50:31 <c_k> hmm, still only seeing ~12 connections with vanilla 0.5.0 daemon configured for maxconnections=256 -_-
354 2011-11-25 10:51:29 dbitcoin has joined
355 2011-11-25 10:55:10 <SomeoneWeird> port forwardeedd?
356 2011-11-25 10:59:39 <c_k> SomeoneWeird: it won't do over 8 without port forwarded, right?
357 2011-11-25 10:59:50 <c_k> hmm
358 2011-11-25 10:59:52 <c_k> actually
359 2011-11-25 10:59:52 <SomeoneWeird> not sure
360 2011-11-25 10:59:56 <c_k> you're right
361 2011-11-25 11:00:06 <c_k> I opened the port on an aliased IP
362 2011-11-25 11:00:19 <c_k> not the IP others will see the connection coming from
363 2011-11-25 11:00:32 * c_k fixes
364 2011-11-25 11:00:47 <c_k> thanks ;)
365 2011-11-25 11:00:51 <SomeoneWeird> :)
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372 2011-11-25 11:53:06 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r265 /trunk/pom.xml: POM for 0.3 release
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382 2011-11-25 12:57:13 <wereHamster> what? google interested in bitcoin?
383 2011-11-25 12:58:24 dbitcoin has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
384 2011-11-25 13:05:43 <wumpus> not so much google itself, I think, but a google employee wrote bitcoinj
385 2011-11-25 13:07:49 dennisn has joined
386 2011-11-25 13:09:08 <dennisn> i posted yesterday, about troubles after upgrading to 0.5
387 2011-11-25 13:09:13 da2ce7 has joined
388 2011-11-25 13:09:53 <dennisn> my node doesn't seem to be working properly... i can't "listaccounts" or do most commands. (I can still "getinfo")
389 2011-11-25 13:10:10 <dennisn> in bitcoind, if i try to "listaccounts", all i get is: error: {"code":-2,"message":"Safe mode: WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."}
390 2011-11-25 13:10:34 <dennisn> debug.log continuously shows error messages like: ERROR: ConnectInputs() : 4fa541d5e3 mapTransactions prev not found c45e2db502
391 2011-11-25 13:10:42 <dennisn> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() : ConnectInputs failed 4fa541d5e3
392 2011-11-25 13:10:52 <dennisn> and i don't think it's downloading any blocks since i upgraded
393 2011-11-25 13:10:55 <dennisn> (from 0.3.24)
394 2011-11-25 13:10:56 merde has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
395 2011-11-25 13:11:10 <dennisn> "getblockcount" says 153681
396 2011-11-25 13:13:15 <denisx> dennisn: maybe you should start with a fresh blockchain
397 2011-11-25 13:13:23 <denisx> seems corrupt
398 2011-11-25 13:13:28 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
399 2011-11-25 13:13:36 <dennisn> i will try that :p
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403 2011-11-25 13:18:01 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
404 2011-11-25 13:20:40 <dennisn> denisx, deleting and restarting the blockchain seemed to fix it
405 2011-11-25 13:20:53 <denisx> good
406 2011-11-25 13:20:59 <dennisn> so, in conclusion, my upgrade to 0.5 screwed up my blockchain :(
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422 2011-11-25 14:10:55 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r266 /wiki/UsingMaven.wiki: Edited wiki page UsingMaven through web user interface.
423 2011-11-25 14:19:36 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r267 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/VersionMessage.java: Set version to 0.3 in the version message
424 2011-11-25 14:19:47 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r268 /trunk/pom.xml: Correct typo in the POM file.
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428 2011-11-25 14:29:36 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r269 /trunk/ (pom.xml src/com/google/bitcoin/core/VersionMessage.java): Bump version to 0.4-SNAPSHOT, switch the subVer field to use genjixs BIP 14 format.
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433 2011-11-25 14:39:23 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r270 /wiki/ReleaseNotes.wiki: Added a release notes page
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461 2011-11-25 16:21:58 <Rahar> Hi ppl! We are porting bitcoin client to ANSI C and my question is , is there any additional functionality that users want to see in bitcoin client?
462 2011-11-25 16:24:10 Lexa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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466 2011-11-25 16:35:11 <luke-jr> …
467 2011-11-25 16:35:52 <roconnor> does porting to ANSI C make the code portable to other endianness?
468 2011-11-25 16:36:19 <[Tycho]> I really like ANSI C.
469 2011-11-25 16:36:26 <luke-jr> ANSI C is deprecated.
470 2011-11-25 16:36:31 <luke-jr> C99 is current.
471 2011-11-25 16:36:47 <[Tycho]> Well, any C without ++ will do.
472 2011-11-25 16:37:03 <edcba> C# ?
473 2011-11-25 16:37:07 <lianj> he should port his irc connection to native
474 2011-11-25 16:37:47 <luke-jr> dunno, I think C++ might be a better fit for Bitcoin clients
475 2011-11-25 16:37:59 <luke-jr> doesn't preclude a C-compatible API ofc
476 2011-11-25 16:38:04 <[Tycho]> С# is managed, AFAIK. Managed code is bad.
477 2011-11-25 16:41:41 <edcba> why ?
478 2011-11-25 16:42:46 <[Tycho]> I like direct execution, without overhead and additional possible bugs.
479 2011-11-25 16:42:58 <edcba> haha
480 2011-11-25 16:43:05 <edcba> you like buffer overflows :)
481 2011-11-25 16:44:06 <[Tycho]> I don't do buffer overflows :)
482 2011-11-25 16:46:02 jacobwg has joined
483 2011-11-25 16:48:07 <roconnor> [Tycho]: how do you avoid buffer overflows?
484 2011-11-25 16:49:14 erus` has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243])
485 2011-11-25 16:49:34 <[Tycho]> By using some special street magic.
486 2011-11-25 16:51:12 <roconnor> I learned this week that (software) buffer overflows in infusion pumps have killed people.
487 2011-11-25 16:51:43 <[Tycho]> Yeah, you can even kill people with C !
488 2011-11-25 16:52:03 <roconnor> ANSI C!
489 2011-11-25 16:54:10 <luke-jr> managed code doesn't avoid buffer overflows
490 2011-11-25 16:54:19 <luke-jr> it just means you have someone else to blame when you encounter them
491 2011-11-25 16:54:20 <luke-jr> :p
492 2011-11-25 16:54:52 <roconnor> luke-jr: C# isn't garbage collected?
493 2011-11-25 16:55:00 <luke-jr> roconnor: irrelevant
494 2011-11-25 16:55:11 <[Tycho]> It just doesn't feels like something serious. Closer to bytecode BASIC :)
495 2011-11-25 16:56:54 <roconnor> luke-jr: doesn't C# use memory management?
496 2011-11-25 16:57:20 <[Tycho]> But may be soon I'll have to use it for making deepbit app on Windows Phone :)
497 2011-11-25 16:57:26 * roconnor doesn't know the difference between garbage collection and memory management.
498 2011-11-25 16:58:49 <roconnor> oh I guess bounds checking and garbage collection are technically unrelated.
499 2011-11-25 17:00:42 <roconnor> [Tycho]: I think that if you care about direct execution you should be writing mircocode rather than using C.
500 2011-11-25 17:01:12 <[Tycho]> It's not platform-independent.
501 2011-11-25 17:01:34 <roconnor> [Tycho]: direct execution is clearly platform dependent.
502 2011-11-25 17:03:27 <[Tycho]> http://cs10310.vk.com/u711677/92580232/y_4f95b9de.jpg
503 2011-11-25 17:03:53 <abragin> :-))))
504 2011-11-25 17:04:43 <roconnor> :)
505 2011-11-25 17:06:19 <[Tycho]> abragin, it's all your fault.
506 2011-11-25 17:07:07 <luke-jr> roconnor: C# is implemented in unmanaged code.
507 2011-11-25 17:07:32 <abragin> btw, there is a so-called Managed C
508 2011-11-25 17:07:42 <abragin> which indeed sucks deeply
509 2011-11-25 17:08:04 <[Tycho]> Quake C ?
510 2011-11-25 17:08:28 <abragin> Quake C brings good memories
511 2011-11-25 17:11:00 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r271 /trunk/pom.xml: Switch to JDK logging and add a simple formatter that is more concise than the default Java one.
512 2011-11-25 17:12:13 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r272 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/ (utils utils/BriefLogFormatter.java examples/PingService.java): Switch to JDK logging and add a simple formatter that is more concise than the default Java one.
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537 2011-11-25 18:33:51 <graingert> abragin: you mean Managed C++
538 2011-11-25 18:34:04 <abragin> Yes certainly
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556 2011-11-25 19:16:38 <osmosis> I like the new qt gui, but i has a loss of display information. There should be a way to toggle on blockcount displays.
557 2011-11-25 19:16:56 larsivi has joined
558 2011-11-25 19:18:35 * BlueMatt agrees
559 2011-11-25 19:18:35 <BlueMatt> but it is also a number that most users dont need to care about
560 2011-11-25 19:18:35 <BlueMatt> or shouldnt need to care about
561 2011-11-25 19:19:51 <nanotube> time for "advanced mode" option that turns on extra info display :)
562 2011-11-25 19:20:41 <luke-jr> osmosis: it's in the tooltip
563 2011-11-25 19:21:10 <BlueMatt> which is (imho) a pretty good compromise
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567 2011-11-25 19:31:54 <osmosis> ok, tooltip is easier then right clicking to properties like i was doing
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570 2011-11-25 19:37:45 PK is now known as PK|dinner
571 2011-11-25 19:38:23 <luke-jr> lol
572 2011-11-25 19:38:38 <luke-jr> there is no rightclick… O.o
573 2011-11-25 19:39:52 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
574 2011-11-25 19:41:32 <[Tycho]> Is there anyone planning to use green addresses ?
575 2011-11-25 19:42:19 rdponticelli has joined
576 2011-11-25 19:44:16 <BlueMatt> green addresses?
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583 2011-11-25 19:55:12 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: yes
584 2011-11-25 19:57:33 <BlueMatt> what are those again?
585 2011-11-25 19:57:44 <[Tycho]> You are joking, right ? :)
586 2011-11-25 19:58:02 PK is now known as dinner!~PK@pdpc/supporter/active/pk|PK
587 2011-11-25 19:59:04 * BlueMatt doesnt have enough time to read through all new bitcoin ideas, usually Ill read the first thread of a new discussion on the dev list and if it doesnt apply to me ignore the rest
588 2011-11-25 19:59:48 <[Tycho]> It's a trust-related idea, supported by mtgox, instawallet and me.
589 2011-11-25 20:00:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: this is that crazy thing that mtgox does where they pay you by first sending the funds to a well known address. Then you 'know' the funds come from a trusted source based on the pubkey signing the input on the payment to you.
590 2011-11-25 20:00:32 <[Tycho]> We publish our carefully selected "green" address and others may accept 0-confirmation TXes if they trust the owner.
591 2011-11-25 20:00:49 amiller has joined
592 2011-11-25 20:01:04 <[Tycho]> MtGox is doing it completely wrong, with 2 TXes per operation.
593 2011-11-25 20:02:00 <gmaxwell> As I mentioned before, they do it that way intentionally in order to avoid keeping a bunch of funds tied to the green address. ::shrugs::
594 2011-11-25 20:02:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh, thats worthless
595 2011-11-25 20:03:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I tried to convince mtgox they should be using something like sipa's payment protocol, but MagicalTux said that it wasn't sufficiently arms length with the payee. They don't want to know who you're paying.
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597 2011-11-25 20:04:33 <[Tycho]> Also, they don't need to keep bunch of funds tied to it. Adding 0.01 input from green address will be enough to "sign" the trasaction.
598 2011-11-25 20:05:55 Cory has joined
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600 2011-11-25 20:07:10 <gmaxwell> They keep a bunch of funds tied to other addresses anyways. ::shrugs:: The additional input still bloats the blockchain, though not as bad as two txn.
601 2011-11-25 20:07:11 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: Id bet the reason they do that is so that eligius can easily identify which txes to accept blindly, not because they think anyone cares what src their coins come from
602 2011-11-25 20:07:19 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: which is retarded
603 2011-11-25 20:07:38 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: nah, has nothing to do with eligius there— they already have a socket based thing to tell eligius which txn to accept.
604 2011-11-25 20:07:59 <BlueMatt> then why do they bother?
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606 2011-11-25 20:08:22 <BlueMatt> oh, heh good point if they had been doing it that way, those broken txes wouldnt have gone through...
607 2011-11-25 20:08:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: so people (merchants) will accept zero confirm payments from them.
608 2011-11-25 20:09:16 <gmaxwell> (as they, reasonably, trust mtgox to not double spend)
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614 2011-11-25 20:13:44 <BlueMatt> heh, thats not the right way to be doing it...if two merchants are trying to setup a system by which their users can pay each others quickly, they should just carry a balance between each other and just transfer that (they already trust each other...)
615 2011-11-25 20:15:26 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Magicaltux wants to pretend he doesn't know funds are being sent to silkroad.
616 2011-11-25 20:17:47 <BlueMatt> heh, thats true...
617 2011-11-25 20:18:05 <[Tycho]> Oh, so that's the cause...
618 2011-11-25 20:18:52 <BlueMatt> though I would argue he should actively inconvenience silkroad users by not doing it...
619 2011-11-25 20:19:12 <graingert> how does green addressing mean he won't know about it
620 2011-11-25 20:19:16 <[Tycho]> Why ?
621 2011-11-25 20:19:36 <gmaxwell> graingert: because there is no communication with the reciever of the funds.
622 2011-11-25 20:19:45 <gmaxwell> graingert: it's just an opaque address.
623 2011-11-25 20:20:07 <graingert> I don't see how that's worse than not doing it at all
624 2011-11-25 20:20:08 <BlueMatt> if he carried a balance for silk road he would know where the funds are going
625 2011-11-25 20:20:09 <BlueMatt> green addressing means he knows just the target address
626 2011-11-25 20:20:23 <graingert> okay
627 2011-11-25 20:20:31 <graingert> I doubt he wants to make a deal with SR
628 2011-11-25 20:20:31 <gmaxwell> carried a balance, or used some other trust confirming payment protocol.
629 2011-11-25 20:20:46 <graingert> Green addressing is clearly better than carried balence
630 2011-11-25 20:21:00 <graingert> works in the general
631 2011-11-25 20:21:07 <graingert> and requires minimal aggreement
632 2011-11-25 20:21:29 <gmaxwell> It's not better, it increases to doubles the load on the blockchain.
633 2011-11-25 20:21:42 <gmaxwell> And it harms privacy.
634 2011-11-25 20:21:52 <graingert> it's optional
635 2011-11-25 20:21:52 <gmaxwell> Becuase the whole world can see one party to the transaction.
636 2011-11-25 20:21:56 <graingert> so who cares
637 2011-11-25 20:21:58 danbri_ has joined
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639 2011-11-25 20:22:15 <gmaxwell> graingert: and do you think I'd make that accusation lightly?
640 2011-11-25 20:22:18 <graingert> and they have to pay the fee like everyone else
641 2011-11-25 20:22:24 <graingert> yes
642 2011-11-25 20:22:41 <gmaxwell> graingert: mtgox doesn't pay a fee.
643 2011-11-25 20:22:53 <graingert> yes they do
644 2011-11-25 20:22:59 <graingert> just not in band
645 2011-11-25 20:23:12 <graingert> I presume luke-jr makes money from the mtgox deal
646 2011-11-25 20:23:31 <gmaxwell> graingert: No, they provide free hosting to a pool, which is net profitable for them because luke also pays half the fees he gets.
647 2011-11-25 20:23:43 <graingert> ah I ssee
648 2011-11-25 20:23:47 <graingert> see*
649 2011-11-25 20:23:55 <graingert> okay so they pay for hosting
650 2011-11-25 20:24:00 <graingert> it's still a "fee"
651 2011-11-25 20:24:29 <gmaxwell> Yes, but they have pretty unequal access to this method compared to other bitcoin users.
652 2011-11-25 20:24:30 <[Tycho]> There was even a link to Eligius at the mtgox.
653 2011-11-25 20:24:34 <[Tycho]> But not now.
654 2011-11-25 20:25:20 parus has quit (Quit: leaving)
655 2011-11-25 20:25:22 <[Tycho]> What method ?
656 2011-11-25 20:25:43 parus has joined
657 2011-11-25 20:26:33 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: bouncing the funds through a green address and using a zero confirm input in the process.
658 2011-11-25 20:26:58 <[Tycho]> Other users don't need to do it.
659 2011-11-25 20:27:13 <gmaxwell> ...
660 2011-11-25 20:27:26 <[Tycho]> They can 1) keep some spare coins at the green address and just direct the change at it.
661 2011-11-25 20:27:46 <[Tycho]> 2) use 0.01 green inputs
662 2011-11-25 20:27:54 <[Tycho]> 3) other ways to do it
663 2011-11-25 20:28:22 <[Tycho]> MtGox uses the worst possible method.
664 2011-11-25 20:30:00 <graingert> green inputs is a cool ide
665 2011-11-25 20:30:03 <graingert> a
666 2011-11-25 20:30:14 <gmaxwell> It's all still terrible.
667 2011-11-25 20:30:59 <gmaxwell> You're burdening the whole bitcoin network to store your ephemerial trust data _forever_... and diminishing your own privacy at the same time, because now everyone knows the identity of one party of the transaction.
668 2011-11-25 20:31:01 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
669 2011-11-25 20:31:42 <[Tycho]> All other data is also stored forever, it's somehow has more rights to be stored ?
670 2011-11-25 20:32:06 <Eliel> gmaxwell: hmm? I thought old transactions can be pruned once they're spent.
671 2011-11-25 20:32:09 <[Tycho]> Some guy buys a candy for 0.01 and this info will be stored FOREVER !
672 2011-11-25 20:32:09 <gmaxwell> Yes! because the other data is important to everyone because it's required to prove that no one is cheating and inflating the balance of bitcoins.
673 2011-11-25 20:32:42 <gmaxwell> Eliel: they can't be completely forgotten or you can't bring a new node online.
674 2011-11-25 20:33:22 <[Tycho]> This trust data is important too.
675 2011-11-25 20:33:30 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: I don't think its crazy to draw a hard line for information which is necessary for running the currency and preventing double spending— and information which is a _private_ _communication_ between two parties and irrelevant to bitcoin.
676 2011-11-25 20:33:39 <gmaxwell> It is important— but only to the reciever. No one else.
677 2011-11-25 20:33:55 <gmaxwell> Making it highly public damanages the reciever's privacy, in fact. He'd rather it not be.
678 2011-11-25 20:34:07 <graingert> simply signing transaction ID's would be lighter on the bitcoin chain
679 2011-11-25 20:34:15 <[Tycho]> My green implementation is not making my TXes bigger. Even 9% smaller.
680 2011-11-25 20:34:41 <Eliel> [Tycho]: how does that work?
681 2011-11-25 20:34:44 <[Tycho]> And everyone already knows who the sender is.
682 2011-11-25 20:34:55 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: false comparison. You could use pubkey change without green addresses.
683 2011-11-25 20:35:14 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: at least it's not bigger.
684 2011-11-25 20:35:18 <Eliel> oh, compressed pubkey?
685 2011-11-25 20:35:21 <gmaxwell> You're taking an additional input.
686 2011-11-25 20:35:47 <[Tycho]> Eliel: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/866bc08c929d5df1de1d80380edbf60d54a5b260845d57e19a9a93ed03edcd38
687 2011-11-25 20:35:54 <[Tycho]> No, I'm not.
688 2011-11-25 20:37:09 <gmaxwell> Fine enough, in your case you can actually do a zero overhead implementation.. presumably you mine directly to that pubkey too?
689 2011-11-25 20:37:32 <[Tycho]> Not currently, but this is possible.
690 2011-11-25 20:38:59 <gmaxwell> This still requires overhead (either a bounce txn, or generating a bunch of 0.01 dust inputs) for parties that need to use multiple payment addresses for their inputs to distinguish input targets.
691 2011-11-25 20:39:26 <[Tycho]> What do you mean ?
692 2011-11-25 20:39:51 <[Tycho]> They can refill the green address once per many sends, not every time.
693 2011-11-25 20:40:29 <[Tycho]> By the way, do Instawallet owner visits IRC ?
694 2011-11-25 20:40:35 <gmaxwell> They need to refill it with many inputs, or they'll be stuck respending zero confirm change. I agree not every time. But also not 'once ever'.
695 2011-11-25 20:41:20 <gmaxwell> And I don't understand why you've dismissed the privacy concern— it's _usually_ not the case that everyone knows who one party to the txn is. Bitcoin software works fairly hard to hide that.
696 2011-11-25 20:41:39 <gmaxwell> This is the only source of privacy in the system at all. Without it your nosey inlaws know your every purchase.
697 2011-11-25 20:41:58 <[Tycho]> In MY case everyone already knows the source of funds.
698 2011-11-25 20:42:49 eoss has joined
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700 2011-11-25 20:42:49 eoss has joined
701 2011-11-25 20:42:58 <gmaxwell> ::nods:: Right, I don't mean to argue that your usage is terrible, but that doesn't make this a good general mechenism. For _your_ case you could simply put up a file with a list of your recent txn ids and people could check against it, too.
702 2011-11-25 20:43:34 <gmaxwell> (but that doesn't necessarily work more generally)
703 2011-11-25 20:44:21 <[Tycho]> Well, I can invent a scheme to use another addresses for change, and then re-mint it.
704 2011-11-25 20:44:59 <[Tycho]> Or something less dangerous.
705 2011-11-25 20:45:55 <[Tycho]> I hope someone will come up with appropriate ideas, but currently there is only one - green addresses.
706 2011-11-25 20:46:22 <[Tycho]> Additional signatures may work too, but it's more difficult to use.
707 2011-11-25 20:46:36 <gmaxwell> No, there is a whole other proposal.  https://gist.github.com/1237788
708 2011-11-25 20:46:43 AStove has joined
709 2011-11-25 20:47:58 <[Tycho]> It's out-of-band ?
710 2011-11-25 20:48:18 <gmaxwell> Yes.
711 2011-11-25 20:51:15 <[Tycho]> That's not funny :(
712 2011-11-25 20:58:29 agricocb has joined
713 2011-11-25 21:00:36 <osmosis> cool proposal
714 2011-11-25 21:02:46 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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717 2011-11-25 21:17:09 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: nonsense.
718 2011-11-25 21:17:17 <[Tycho]> Where ?
719 2011-11-25 21:17:23 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I suggested days ago, that you can just sign the transaction with an extraneous key.
720 2011-11-25 21:17:40 <luke-jr> this also doesn't bloat the block chain, since miners can strip it off
721 2011-11-25 21:17:53 <luke-jr> but since it is relayed, the receiving end will see it
722 2011-11-25 21:18:14 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
723 2011-11-25 21:19:04 <[Tycho]> How can they strip it ?
724 2011-11-25 21:19:19 <luke-jr> …
725 2011-11-25 21:19:23 <luke-jr> by removing it.
726 2011-11-25 21:19:42 <luke-jr> even if they can't strip it, it's still cheaper than adding an input
727 2011-11-25 21:19:45 <[Tycho]> Where this signature should be ?
728 2011-11-25 21:19:53 <[Tycho]> Not in the script ?
729 2011-11-25 21:20:00 erus` has joined
730 2011-11-25 21:20:07 copumpkin has joined
731 2011-11-25 21:20:07 <luke-jr> wherever signatures usually are
732 2011-11-25 21:22:39 iocor has joined
733 2011-11-25 21:23:44 <[Tycho]> I doubt about stripping
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749 2011-11-25 22:10:59 <batouzo> about the conference - will there be any transmission, video or audio??
750 2011-11-25 22:12:26 danbri_ is now known as danbri
751 2011-11-25 22:17:26 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
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755 2011-11-25 22:20:48 <roconnor> [Tycho]: oh nice, are you using compressed public keys now, or was that just a test?
756 2011-11-25 22:21:01 * roconnor is pleased to see compressed keys in the mainline network
757 2011-11-25 22:21:04 <[Tycho]> No, it's not compressed.
758 2011-11-25 22:21:31 <roconnor> ah oops
759 2011-11-25 22:21:37 <roconnor> I read a bit hastily
760 2011-11-25 22:21:54 <[Tycho]> Sending AND receiving on plain pubkey takes less bytes than sending and receiving to an address.
761 2011-11-25 22:22:22 <[Tycho]> Short pubkeys can't be used in the main chain.
762 2011-11-25 22:22:39 <roconnor> AFAIK compressed keys can be used on the main chain
763 2011-11-25 22:22:47 <roconnor> in principle
764 2011-11-25 22:22:58 <roconnor> but yes, the current bitcoin client won't support them
765 2011-11-25 22:23:12 <roconnor> in that you won't see the coins in your wallet
766 2011-11-25 22:23:36 jacobwg has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
767 2011-11-25 22:24:00 <roconnor> [Tycho]: Right, I guess there isn't a much of an advantage if any for you to use them yet.
768 2011-11-25 22:26:51 <graingert> what are compressed keys?
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770 2011-11-25 22:29:41 <roconnor> graingert: they are public keys that are roughly half the size of the normal uncompressed encoding of public keys
771 2011-11-25 22:29:54 <roconnor> graingert: they take somewhat more CPU time to process, but not a lot.
772 2011-11-25 22:30:19 <graingert> link?
773 2011-11-25 22:30:44 <roconnor> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/649
774 2011-11-25 22:30:50 mmmmmmmmmmmt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
775 2011-11-25 22:33:54 <osmosis> whats the benefit of compressedpubkeys ?   short paste size?
776 2011-11-25 22:34:49 <osmosis> less bytes in blockchain?
777 2011-11-25 22:37:23 <roconnor> osmosis: less bytes in the blockchain
778 2011-11-25 22:37:37 <roconnor> smaller QR codes???
779 2011-11-25 22:37:44 <roconnor> I don't know, maybe they are as small as they can be
780 2011-11-25 22:38:20 PK_ has joined
781 2011-11-25 22:39:15 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
782 2011-11-25 22:39:18 <roconnor> Hmm, I thought I documented compressed keys on the wiki ... maybe I fogot to save my changes
783 2011-11-25 22:39:47 <luke-jr> lol
784 2011-11-25 22:39:55 PK_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
785 2011-11-25 22:40:05 PK has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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790 2011-11-25 22:46:55 <[Tycho]> Won't work for QR codes
791 2011-11-25 22:47:14 <graingert> a mechanism for detecting updates would be very usefull
792 2011-11-25 22:47:34 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
793 2011-11-25 22:47:41 <graingert> otherwise we'll start having an IE6 issue on our hands
794 2011-11-25 22:47:46 <roconnor> [Tycho]: oh, maybe QR codes are addresses not public_keys
795 2011-11-25 22:47:53 <graingert> not sure how to do this without centralization
796 2011-11-25 22:48:06 <[Tycho]>  IE6 is cool!
797 2011-11-25 22:48:21 <gmaxwell> IE6 is The Standard.
798 2011-11-25 22:48:30 <[Tycho]> This.
799 2011-11-25 22:48:35 <graingert> Standard what?
800 2011-11-25 22:48:53 <gmaxwell> graingert: It's the internet. Says so under the icon.
801 2011-11-25 22:48:54 <[Tycho]> roconnor: it's possible to use public keys in QR code, but any public key will be longer that address.
802 2011-11-25 22:49:02 <roconnor> graingert: blocks and transactions have version numbers, but they are unused at the moment.
803 2011-11-25 22:49:04 <roconnor> [Tycho]: yep
804 2011-11-25 22:49:13 Diablo-D3 has joined
805 2011-11-25 22:49:15 <gmaxwell> Obviously satoshi screwed up. He should have called bitcoin "money".
806 2011-11-25 22:49:17 <roconnor> graingert: I've taken to inserting random version numbers in my transactions.
807 2011-11-25 22:49:23 <Diablo-D3> gm
808 2011-11-25 22:49:25 <Diablo-D3> er
809 2011-11-25 22:49:27 da2ce7 has joined
810 2011-11-25 22:49:27 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: no!
811 2011-11-25 22:49:39 <Diablo-D3> he should have called it a security token!
812 2011-11-25 22:50:05 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you know whats going to be depressing? when AMD goes bankrupt because no one buys 7xxx for mining
813 2011-11-25 22:50:35 <gmaxwell> Their GPU sales in 4Q 2010 were like 460m. Mining isn't relevant to that.
814 2011-11-25 22:50:52 <Diablo-D3> I dunno man, millions have quit nvidia for amd
815 2011-11-25 22:51:02 <denisx> sure, millions
816 2011-11-25 22:51:03 <Diablo-D3> they dont do full time mining, but thats a lot of lost nvdiai sales
817 2011-11-25 22:51:45 num1 has joined
818 2011-11-25 22:52:58 <gmaxwell> oh, you think that casual mining caused people to buy amd rather than nvidia? Thats.. an interesting thought.
819 2011-11-25 22:53:46 <graingert> I'm tempted for example
820 2011-11-25 22:53:54 <graingert> but for other reasons than mining alone
821 2011-11-25 22:54:03 <graingert> mining power is a minor motivator
822 2011-11-25 22:54:06 <graingert> (for me)
823 2011-11-25 22:59:26 <GMP> NVIDIA next high end chip delayed to the end of 2012, http://www.4gamer.net/games/120/G012093/20111124085/screenshot.html?num=005
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832 2011-11-25 23:17:29 <coingenuity> rg you around?
833 2011-11-25 23:17:46 <coingenuity> or grubles, one of the two
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843 2011-11-25 23:36:40 <batouzo> anyone 1 selling btc?
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851 2011-11-25 23:55:03 <luke-jr> batouzo: for 25 USD
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