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  9 2011-12-05 00:14:04 <GFlam> hey
 10 2011-12-05 00:14:09 <nanotube> hi
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 12 2011-12-05 00:15:39 <GFlam> with bitcoin mining why exactly do you get paid? like what exactly is being done on our computers?
 13 2011-12-05 00:16:14 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki how bitcoin works
 14 2011-12-05 00:16:15 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_bitcoin_works | 6 days ago ... How bitcoin works. From Bitcoin. Jump to: navigation, search. This page explains the basic framework of Bitcoin's functionality. ...
 15 2011-12-05 00:16:17 <nanotube> start there
 16 2011-12-05 00:17:28 <GFlam> yea just skimmed that but just wondering exactly what's being done on the computer like why are people paid for this? is it basically like someone else is paying to use my machine?
 17 2011-12-05 00:17:31 <gmaxwell> GFlam: mining is the process of adding transactions to bitcoin's shared database of transactions and simultaniously securing the database against modification.
 18 2011-12-05 00:18:25 <gmaxwell> It also serves the purpose of performing the initial distribution of bitcoins— when a miner adds a block of transactions to the chain, the system lets him give himself a limited amount of new bitcoin out of thin air.
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 21 2011-12-05 00:19:33 <GFlam> okay but then where exactly is the money coming from when you exchange the coins for cash if the coins come from thin air?
 22 2011-12-05 00:19:34 <nanotube> gmaxwell: you mean, out of the thick, hot, dusty air coming out of the back of the computer :)
 23 2011-12-05 00:19:53 <nanotube> GFlam: from other people wanting to buy them.
 24 2011-12-05 00:19:56 <gmaxwell> GFlam: people who want to buy bitcoins.
 25 2011-12-05 00:20:33 <gmaxwell> The programming of the system limits the supply— so there will never be more than 21 million bitcoin. (there are 7200 created per day now, but that rate slows geometrically over time)
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 27 2011-12-05 00:21:15 <GFlam> okay so it sounds like it's just moving money around?
 28 2011-12-05 00:21:22 <gmaxwell> Like anything else with a limited supply: if you have it, and other people want it— and they have something you want, you can agree to trade.
 29 2011-12-05 00:21:32 <GFlam> like someone gives money for coins then those who mine get that money
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 31 2011-12-05 00:22:48 <gmaxwell> There isn't any direct connection. You get bitcoins (somehow) then later you trade them for something else (maybe USD, maybe pizza)... the person who got those can trade them elsewhere (maybe for pizza sauce, maybe for socks, who knows)
 32 2011-12-05 00:24:01 <gmaxwell> Some people who mine it hold on to it— hoping that it will have more spending power in the future, some convert it directly to USD at the going rate... some people do things in between (like only use it to buy goods/services in bitcoin, in order to help grow the bitcoin economy)
 33 2011-12-05 00:25:32 <GFlam> okay cause it just sounds like you're basically moving money around then really and then i just am not really understanding how you can just basically make money from mining really but i guess that;s all just complicated i was more just curious ha
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 35 2011-12-05 00:25:54 <GFlam> so have you made money doing this? like it's something you've done yourself right?
 36 2011-12-05 00:26:46 <gmaxwell> Sure.. though mining isn't terribly profitable— it takes electricity to run the computers to do the mining.
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 38 2011-12-05 00:28:13 <GFlam> yea i mean obviously the machines and what not cost a ton but i just am not getting my head around why you are paid and what exactly is being done on these machines
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 42 2011-12-05 00:29:15 <gmaxwell> GFlam: the machines are solving puzzles based on the prior bitcoin transactions, the puzzles are easy to verify— so that other people can tell that work was expended on them.
 43 2011-12-05 00:29:35 <gmaxwell> This makes it possible for bitcoin to have a transaction log which can't be undone without having any centeral party in charge of it.
 44 2011-12-05 00:30:03 <gmaxwell> central*
 45 2011-12-05 00:30:10 <GFlam> k got you was more just curious thanks for the help
 46 2011-12-05 00:30:41 <gmaxwell> GFlam: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf  has a good overview.
 47 2011-12-05 00:30:59 <gmaxwell> GFlam: this is also good, and a bit less technical: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source
 48 2011-12-05 00:33:27 <GFlam> alright thanks for the info :)
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 53 2011-12-05 00:41:17 <applejack19> hello?
 54 2011-12-05 00:41:25 <gmaxwell> Hello.
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 56 2011-12-05 00:42:09 <applejack19> hello mr maxwell
 57 2011-12-05 00:42:30 <applejack19> so are you like a bitcoin wizard :D?
 58 2011-12-05 00:44:33 <gmaxwell> Ha. Hardly. I know a few things though. This is where the wizards hang out however.
 59 2011-12-05 00:44:50 <gmaxwell> Though if you have a question you might need to wait a bit since I think most people are not active now.
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 93 2011-12-05 02:07:45 <ByteCoin> ;;seen gavinandresen
 94 2011-12-05 02:07:46 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 5 hours, 15 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> luke-jr: maybe another gavinsomething got it
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142 2011-12-05 04:20:52 <ByteCoin> theymos: Yeah. Not ioften here! And not often paying attention to the feed. Sorry!
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162 2011-12-05 05:05:15 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr luke-jr/log_block_sender_and_time * r34f8355 / src/main.cpp : Whenever a block is received, log the sender's IP and the current time - http://git.io/L60FBQ https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin/commit/34f8355dd6a9c37011a805246384a7599fe56427
163 2011-12-05 05:07:08 <gmaxwell> OT, but some people around here might enjoy laughing (crying?) at some of the examples: http://www.fefe.de/c++/c%2b%2b-talk.pdf "Most of the perceived benefits of C++, when viewed from a different vantage point, turn out to have or even be downsides"
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174 2011-12-05 05:35:58 <FellowTraveler> hi all.
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176 2011-12-05 05:43:02 <SomeoneWeird> hello :)
177 2011-12-05 05:46:51 <SomeoneWeird> Anyone got any suggestions of a project (btc or non-btc) I could code, getting bored.
178 2011-12-05 05:47:11 <luke-jr> SomeoneWeird: add TBC support to Bitcoin-Qt
179 2011-12-05 05:48:05 <SomeoneWeird> tbc?
180 2011-12-05 05:49:42 <luke-jr> Tonal
181 2011-12-05 05:49:56 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tonal_Bitcoin
182 2011-12-05 05:52:21 <SomeoneWeird> heh
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195 2011-12-05 06:31:17 <terrytibbs> How can I take a snapshot of the blockchain without having to shut the client down?
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230 2011-12-05 07:40:34 <ThomasV> tcatm: bc is not up to date
231 2011-12-05 07:41:26 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP7K9SycELA
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255 2011-12-05 08:13:59 <slush> tcatm: hi, telnet interface down?
256 2011-12-05 08:14:37 <slush> I see last trade on mtgox at 4am UTC (using CSV download) and telnet is giving me "timed out" error
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258 2011-12-05 08:17:11 <luke-jr> could we get rid of the compression part of base58 without breaking compatibility?
259 2011-12-05 08:17:28 <luke-jr> at least for ver 2 addresses?
260 2011-12-05 08:17:44 <luke-jr> [12o..z] for the first octet is ugly
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266 2011-12-05 08:25:38 <forrestv> luke-jr, compression part.. you mean the leading-zero-bytes-get-changed-into-1's part?
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301 2011-12-05 10:22:28 <wboy1> Hey Guys,any crypto's that are interested to join an early stage bitcoin-related funded startup,drop me a message,thanks!
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304 2011-12-05 10:43:03 <UukGoblin> hrm, bitcoincharts.com refuses connection on 27007 :->
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315 2011-12-05 11:05:32 <tcatm> slush: fixed
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325 2011-12-05 11:40:08 <slush> thanks
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350 2011-12-05 12:52:53 <wereHamster> tcatm: do you run bitcoincharts/
351 2011-12-05 12:52:54 <wereHamster> ?
352 2011-12-05 12:53:16 <tcatm> wereHamster: yes
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378 2011-12-05 14:14:56 <wboy1> Hi Guys,any crypto's that are interested to join an early stage bitcoin related funded startup,drop me a message,thanks!
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407 2011-12-05 15:24:36 <pak> hello
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413 2011-12-05 15:53:57 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r3f9144d / bitcoin-qt.pro : Move -lgdi32 after -lcrypto (fixes #681). - http://git.io/JaoabQ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/3f9144d42c7a05a9acb3334c0fcea4585f8780f2
414 2011-12-05 15:54:00 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rf66eabd / bitcoin-qt.pro : Merge pull request #682 from TheBlueMatt/gdicrypto ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/f66eabd281252b700dbe980fbd19138d864683da
415 2011-12-05 15:54:08 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r8848a70 / src/qt/bitcoin.cpp : Merge pull request #679 from laanwj/cmdline_minimize ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/8848a70ba16765313438a289b8837732e81650f7
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424 2011-12-05 16:06:03 <[Tycho]> Hello.
425 2011-12-05 16:09:15 iocor has joined
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429 2011-12-05 16:12:12 <helo> tooltip when hovering over synched icon in bitcoin-qt: (verbatim) "Up to date Downloaded 156176 blocks of transaction history. Last received block was generated %n second ago."
430 2011-12-05 16:13:34 <helo> oh, already known https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-qt/issues/19
431 2011-12-05 16:14:02 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Matt Corallo 0.5.x * r16e7c05de71a bitcoind-stable/bitcoin-qt.pro: Move -lgdi32 after -lcrypto (fixes #681). http://tinyurl.com/7wmzbd9
432 2011-12-05 16:14:10 <helo> hmm, but closed because it couldn't be reproduced
433 2011-12-05 16:17:42 dan__ has joined
434 2011-12-05 16:18:42 <tcatm> helo: if you know how to reproduce the bug please report on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues (or maybe check whether it's known there, first)
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436 2011-12-05 16:20:12 <luke-jr> dooglus: ping
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439 2011-12-05 16:24:10 <helo> it seems to occur every time i start the bitcoin client on this machine, at least... i suspect that isn't sufficient to reproduce it generally
440 2011-12-05 16:26:03 <tcatm> slush: can you check whether this bug still exists? it looks like it might related to WX and thus might be gone now https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/49
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443 2011-12-05 16:32:22 <slush> tcatm: im not on ubuntu machine now, will try later
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459 2011-12-05 17:15:18 <helo> luke-jr: if it isn't possible to generate a signmessage when sending a transaction, and it isn't possible to see the input addresses of particular sent transaction, how is signmessage in the GUI intended to be used?
460 2011-12-05 17:15:51 <gmaxwell> helo: to show ownership of an address.
461 2011-12-05 17:16:04 <gmaxwell> (not a transaction)
462 2011-12-05 17:16:21 <luke-jr> helo: it is possible to see the inputs. just not with the client.
463 2011-12-05 17:17:18 <helo> ah, so to show that you have access to an amount of bitcoin _before_ sending
464 2011-12-05 17:17:37 <luke-jr> helo: or after
465 2011-12-05 17:17:51 <luke-jr> the merchant can tell you which address you need to sign from
466 2011-12-05 17:18:00 <luke-jr> I agree it's not ideal, and could use improvement
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468 2011-12-05 17:18:14 <luke-jr> I just wanted to get some minimal level of functionality working
469 2011-12-05 17:18:23 <luke-jr> (which also happens to be the only level of functionality I personally care for)
470 2011-12-05 17:19:59 <gmaxwell> 09:17 < luke-jr> the merchant can tell you which address you need to sign from
471 2011-12-05 17:20:09 <gmaxwell> Well, they already need to tell you the message to sign, so thats not so bd.
472 2011-12-05 17:20:16 <gmaxwell> s/bd/bad/
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474 2011-12-05 17:20:20 <luke-jr> yep
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487 2011-12-05 17:57:47 <BlueMatt> is control-f broken on many of github's pages for anyone else, because its really starting to piss me off
488 2011-12-05 17:58:46 <tcatm> broken here, too
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493 2011-12-05 18:00:53 <gavinandresen> Anybody have opinion on whether the next testnet reset should be a change-the-genesis-block reset or not?  See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50223.msg627957#msg627957
494 2011-12-05 18:01:32 <UukGoblin> has testnet got merged mining yet? ;-]
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496 2011-12-05 18:02:29 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: how about not checking difficulty on testnet, and just accepting blocks with any diff?
497 2011-12-05 18:02:44 <luke-jr> then making the client compete with itself by default
498 2011-12-05 18:02:49 <BlueMatt> hah, just stumbled upon github's dmca repo, and on the list is diablominer...
499 2011-12-05 18:02:55 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: non-trivial
500 2011-12-05 18:03:01 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: too easy to make a gigabytes-long testnet chain
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502 2011-12-05 18:03:16 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Id say that suggestion would be nice
503 2011-12-05 18:03:23 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it's easy anyway.
504 2011-12-05 18:03:34 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: to avoid that, you need to at least make it > 2 hrs difference
505 2011-12-05 18:03:42 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: maybe not min diff though, maybe something scaling that decreases to min_diff
506 2011-12-05 18:04:10 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: why bother?
507 2011-12-05 18:04:15 <BlueMatt> but meh, its testnet doesnt matter much
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509 2011-12-05 18:04:18 <BlueMatt> heh
510 2011-12-05 18:04:54 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I was thinking of a fixed-difficulty testnet, but way-too-many-blocks is almost as bad as way-too-few.
511 2011-12-05 18:06:19 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: why not just require -testnet=SEED where SEED determines the recognized genesis block?
512 2011-12-05 18:06:58 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: that's essentially what testnet-in-a-box is...
513 2011-12-05 18:07:20 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: except TNIAB doesn't work if you need cross-internet stuff
514 2011-12-05 18:07:29 <luke-jr> which is the only case this matters
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516 2011-12-05 18:07:51 <BlueMatt> if you are testing tniab on cross-internet stuff, you are doing something wrong
517 2011-12-05 18:08:20 <luke-jr> basically, TNIAB can't be used for widescale testing
518 2011-12-05 18:08:21 <luke-jr> just local
519 2011-12-05 18:08:44 <gavinandresen> Right.  And -testnet=SEED would have the same problem if SEED was what 'everybody' was using from across-the-internet testing
520 2011-12-05 18:08:46 PK is now known as Dinner!~PK@pdpc/supporter/active/pk|PK
521 2011-12-05 18:08:47 <BlueMatt> but if you do -testnet=SEED then you get a ton of networks with everyone connecting to each other and downloading chains is a huge mess
522 2011-12-05 18:09:16 <BlueMatt> (or you redo a ton of connection logic, and unless someone wants to volunteer, I dont think its gonna happen)
523 2011-12-05 18:09:18 <gavinandresen> Yes, the wallet code wouldn't be very happy if you re-ran with different seeds.
524 2011-12-05 18:09:40 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so then you change SEED on nodes participating in YOUR test
525 2011-12-05 18:09:46 <gavinandresen> ... which is an argument for doing a "If block time after Dec 15 2011 then testnet rules are THIS else THAT"
526 2011-12-05 18:09:56 <cocktopus> wonder if you could hack the client to always force the diff to 1 when using testnet
527 2011-12-05 18:10:27 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: anyhow, TNIAB works for most purposes, and I feel this conversation is already wasting way too much time worrying over it
528 2011-12-05 18:10:58 <luke-jr> iff someone ever has an issue that TNIAB can't solve, they can just build their own custom testnet
529 2011-12-05 18:11:05 <luke-jr> or submit a pullreq
530 2011-12-05 18:11:07 <luke-jr> <.<
531 2011-12-05 18:11:17 <BlueMatt> hence the simple if 20 min since last block -> min diff solution
532 2011-12-05 18:11:37 <luke-jr> fine
533 2011-12-05 18:11:41 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you can't verify that historically, so I can feed you bogus long changes of min diff solutions.
534 2011-12-05 18:11:45 <gavinandresen> Umm, I've got a GetNextWorkRequired testnet change that I'm about to pullreq....
535 2011-12-05 18:12:25 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: just saying, trying to discuss it in depth isn't worth the time; IMO you should just go ahead and change testnet however you want, so long as TNIAB keeps working
536 2011-12-05 18:12:34 <gavinandresen> So I think I'll just make it "New testnet rules go into effect 1/1/2012"
537 2011-12-05 18:12:42 <gavinandresen> ... and there will be a blockchain split on that date.
538 2011-12-05 18:12:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true...
539 2011-12-05 18:13:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I don't think we want to give testnet too many different vulnerabilities from the real network, becuase if people make trouble on testnet we at least want to learn from it.
540 2011-12-05 18:13:08 <gavinandresen> (testnet blockchain split, of course)
541 2011-12-05 18:13:37 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: any idea what causes the OP_EVAL regression yet? :P
542 2011-12-05 18:13:41 <gmaxwell> v.s. "oh look, testnet chain is 10gb ...{lots of work}... oh darn, this is a testnet specific vulnerability"
543 2011-12-05 18:13:52 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: FWIW, Eligius has been live mining OP_EVAL Stage1 since Sat
544 2011-12-05 18:14:09 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I fixed it this morning.  I was being an idiot with a change to IsChange().
545 2011-12-05 18:14:14 <luke-jr> >_<
546 2011-12-05 18:14:21 <luke-jr> ok, I'll try rebuilding 'next' then
547 2011-12-05 18:14:29 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: any of the 'next-test' bits I could promote to 'next'?
548 2011-12-05 18:14:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but considering it is currently fairly hard to actually test anything on testnet unless you have decent mining power, I would still say its better than nothing
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550 2011-12-05 18:15:11 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: or maybe back to the original sliding diff which starts dropping as its been too long since last block
551 2011-12-05 18:15:18 <gavinandresen> yes, testnet is useless right now for most people.  There was exactly 1 testnet block generated yesterday.
552 2011-12-05 18:15:34 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: was the keepnode stuff in next-test? it seemed pretty uncontoversial, I tried it for a bit but didn't attempt to break it.
553 2011-12-05 18:15:57 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: or anything you want to merge to master, before I rebuild next? ;)
554 2011-12-05 18:16:14 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: yes
555 2011-12-05 18:16:32 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: ask wumpus-- there are a couple of ack'ed QT changes.
556 2011-12-05 18:16:37 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you should ACK stuff that you test :P
557 2011-12-05 18:17:09 <gmaxwell> Sorry, I intended to test more but this was on my public node that lost its disk.
558 2011-12-05 18:17:18 <luke-jr> wumpus isn't here right now
559 2011-12-05 18:17:32 <gmaxwell> (and after that I was kinda put off from working on anything that I just lost there. :-/)
560 2011-12-05 18:17:50 <luke-jr> non-Qt stuff in 'next' is just coinbaser and OP_EVAL it looks like
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578 2011-12-05 18:41:52 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr luke-jr/next * r93ce367 / (12 files in 4 dirs): Merge branch 'signmessage_gui' into next ... https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin/commit/93ce3671e6d929c5074e71f47241bc953ef4c588
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580 2011-12-05 18:42:13 <CIA-100> bitcoin: various next * r93ce36..5c3b3b bitcoind-personal/ (91 files in 16 dirs): (12 commits) http://tinyurl.com/7fsst7u
581 2011-12-05 18:43:12 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: could you ACK https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/677 for 0.6 plz? :P
582 2011-12-05 18:43:35 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: and/or comment on the bug it appears to accidentally fix?
583 2011-12-05 18:45:00 <gavinandresen> can't, busy right now, don't have time to think about fee policy stuff
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587 2011-12-05 18:49:13 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: bug jgarzik, since IIRC he was the one that introduced the bug.
588 2011-12-05 18:49:51 <helo> is there any plan to add automation features to the bitcoin gui? for example, auto-transfer (a percentage of) incoming funds to address, or auto-deposit all funds to safe address when balance exceeds N, etc?
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590 2011-12-05 18:50:19 <gmaxwell> helo: I've never even heard those features suggested.
591 2011-12-05 18:50:36 <gmaxwell> helo: It would be quite easy to automate those things externally via the RPC, however.
592 2011-12-05 18:50:47 <gmaxwell> (and even with that, I've never heard of anyone doing that)
593 2011-12-05 18:52:12 <_Fireball> Hi
594 2011-12-05 18:52:18 <helo> seems like it would be somewhat useful, but maybe outside the scope of the official bitcoin gui
595 2011-12-05 18:54:25 <helo> if someone received their salary in bitcoin, it would be pretty nice for it to automatically split it up among different wallets (daily use, bill payment, savings, tax reservoir)
596 2011-12-05 18:55:31 rasengan_ is now known as rasengan
597 2011-12-05 18:55:44 <helo> although you wouldn't be able to use it with encrypted wallets...
598 2011-12-05 18:55:53 <gmaxwell> helo: I can ask my employer to deposit in up to 10 accounts.
599 2011-12-05 18:56:03 <gmaxwell> So I'd assume people would offer the same for bitcoin.
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601 2011-12-05 18:56:04 <helo> sign me up!
602 2011-12-05 18:56:18 <helo> probably so...
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636 2011-12-05 19:40:54 <helo> if someone wanted to do micropayments via bitcoin in an android app...
637 2011-12-05 19:41:34 <BlueMatt> see existing app: Bitcoin Wallet
638 2011-12-05 19:44:41 danbri has joined
639 2011-12-05 19:44:55 <helo> the app would have a link to the developer's website to purchase a particular feature, which would store the player's account ID from a parameter along with the next unused deposit address for that feature
640 2011-12-05 19:45:20 <BlueMatt> dont bother trying...
641 2011-12-05 19:46:19 <helo> then the developer would monitor that address, and once payment is received, update that player's records to allow access to the feature
642 2011-12-05 19:46:26 <helo> why?
643 2011-12-05 19:47:14 <BlueMatt> because you should be doing it via google checkout - its easier, supported and you will get customers
644 2011-12-05 19:47:40 <BlueMatt> whereas bitcoin doesnt have the adoption for it to be reasonable...
645 2011-12-05 19:47:45 <helo> i'm just thinking about how it would work... not actually going to try to use it
646 2011-12-05 19:47:55 <BlueMatt> but yea, thats the way you would do it
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652 2011-12-05 20:01:56 <helo> the web server could just issue an immediate redirect to a bitcoin: URI containing the amount and address after recording the player's account... that would be pretty nice
653 2011-12-05 20:02:42 <BlueMatt> you could, but of all android phones, 0.01% have a bitcoin: handler installed
654 2011-12-05 20:02:55 <BlueMatt> the rest get a loverly error message
655 2011-12-05 20:03:20 <BlueMatt> (though iirc its one of the minor ones at the bottom of the screen)
656 2011-12-05 20:03:47 <helo> this is in the imaginary world where bitcoin is popular, of course :)
657 2011-12-05 20:03:56 <BlueMatt> that said, having a nice bitcoin: link would be nice...
658 2011-12-05 20:04:17 <BlueMatt> if you know they have a bitcoin: handler, just forwarding would be appropriate imho
659 2011-12-05 20:04:44 <BlueMatt> (since most apps currently just forward you right to pay now as quickly as possible)
660 2011-12-05 20:09:20 <[Tycho]> Hmm, may be selling shares will be a better option than taking pre-orders...
661 2011-12-05 20:09:36 <BlueMatt> for?
662 2011-12-05 20:09:45 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
663 2011-12-05 20:09:48 <[Tycho]> For hardware bitcoin miner.
664 2011-12-05 20:09:57 <BlueMatt> mmm
665 2011-12-05 20:10:10 <[Tycho]> I'm thinking about selling some.
666 2011-12-05 20:10:16 <BlueMatt> nice
667 2011-12-05 20:11:49 storrgie has joined
668 2011-12-05 20:13:26 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: You may have some stiff competition.
669 2011-12-05 20:13:40 <[Tycho]> Where from ?
670 2011-12-05 20:14:48 <gmaxwell> From anyone else buying the same hardware as you. (perhaps me!) And, frankly, I'd operate at a loss to keep you under 50% hash power (an issue you seem to selfishly have zero regard for)
671 2011-12-05 20:15:20 <[Tycho]> No, I'm not going to buy it.
672 2011-12-05 20:15:54 Kolky has joined
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674 2011-12-05 20:16:58 <[Tycho]> There is already enough competition within FPGA-based miners market.
675 2011-12-05 20:16:58 epscy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
676 2011-12-05 20:19:28 <gmaxwell> Oh, fpga based.. okay thats boring. :)
677 2011-12-05 20:20:07 RazielZ has joined
678 2011-12-05 20:20:16 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: well, then you can be my customer. You may buy my product and mine somewhere else to keep yourself calm about that 50% thing :)
679 2011-12-05 20:20:29 * BlueMatt would like to see 2-3 more pools which back themselves with 50G+ mining power just to balance power ;)
680 2011-12-05 20:20:49 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: yes, that's why I'm not going to use FPGA.
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684 2011-12-05 20:24:31 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: Sounds great—
685 2011-12-05 20:24:36 epscy has joined
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687 2011-12-05 20:27:32 <cocktopus> [Tycho]: are you rich
688 2011-12-05 20:27:46 <cocktopus> ASIC sounds expensive ;)
689 2011-12-05 20:27:53 <[Tycho]> Not really.
690 2011-12-05 20:28:08 <[Tycho]> Cheaper than your average Ferrary.
691 2011-12-05 20:28:39 peck has joined
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693 2011-12-05 20:28:50 <cocktopus> you have a point, (assuming you aren't talking about a full wafer)
694 2011-12-05 20:30:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: last night I was suggesting to luke that we should try to talk pools into using a fee rule that looks like fee = max(base_fee, 1/(1+e^((blocks_solved_in_last_2016/2016.)*-30+12)) )
695 2011-12-05 20:31:20 <gmaxwell> (or some other function that jacked the fee rapidly after your cross some point)
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697 2011-12-05 20:31:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: "we should try to talk pools into using" doesnt provide any incentives for them to do so
698 2011-12-05 20:32:28 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you were?
699 2011-12-05 20:32:34 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: look in your logs!
700 2011-12-05 20:32:38 <gmaxwell> (in #eligius)
701 2011-12-05 20:32:47 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I don't understand it now, ever!
702 2011-12-05 20:32:49 <luke-jr> even*
703 2011-12-05 20:33:32 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: open gnuplot and type set xrange [0:1] ; plot 1/(1+2.71**(x*-30+12))
704 2011-12-05 20:33:45 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I don't have gnuplot
705 2011-12-05 20:34:53 <gmaxwell> feh. http://people.xiph.org/~greg/sigmoid.png
706 2011-12-05 20:37:08 localhost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
707 2011-12-05 20:38:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: every time I look at you I see involvement in yet another organization
708 2011-12-05 20:39:01 <c_k> gmaxwell: what exactly is the axis labels
709 2011-12-05 20:39:06 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what? xiph? I've been involved with that for >10 years. Its where most of my non-work time goes.
710 2011-12-05 20:39:21 <gmaxwell> c_k: Fine! I'll fix
711 2011-12-05 20:39:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well I havent bothered to do any in-depth googling, but yea
712 2011-12-05 20:39:36 <BlueMatt> always interesting to find out what others are involved in
713 2011-12-05 20:39:45 <c_k> BlueMatt: I was thinking the same thing
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717 2011-12-05 20:42:21 <c_k> gmaxwell: now thats interesting
718 2011-12-05 20:42:36 <gmaxwell> c_k: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/sigmoid.png  < load again? :)
719 2011-12-05 20:43:01 <c_k> I'm not sure you could convince anyone to do that :S
720 2011-12-05 20:43:11 <gmaxwell> in anycase, the basic idea is to have the fees go up as hash power becomes "too large" — first slowly and then quickly.
721 2011-12-05 20:43:47 <gmaxwell> Well— convince some small pools that it doesn't matter for, then convince the miners to only mine for pools that do it (for sake of the health of bitcoin)
722 2011-12-05 20:44:09 <[Tycho]> Why would we need those high fees ?
723 2011-12-05 20:44:51 <helo> gmaxwell: doesn't that kind of assume miners will put the health of bitcoin ahead of their own mining profitability?
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726 2011-12-05 20:45:26 <helo> if i were greedy, i wouldn't join a mining pool that might start charging exorbitant fees
727 2011-12-05 20:46:02 <gmaxwell> helo: of course the idea is that the pools never do, because they'll end up self regulating to avoid that.
728 2011-12-05 20:46:22 <c_k> the hopping phenomenon is proof that there is a rather large number of greedy people
729 2011-12-05 20:46:53 <[Tycho]> Oh, you were talking about pool fees, not TX fees...
730 2011-12-05 20:47:05 <justmoon> c_k: the fact that there is mining is proof that there is a rather large number of greedy people
731 2011-12-05 20:47:20 <gmaxwell> c_k: the fact that people continue to mine on pools with higher fees shows they aren't that greedy!
732 2011-12-05 20:47:56 <[Tycho]> I'm glad that my users don't read the forum :)
733 2011-12-05 20:48:09 <justmoon> [Tycho], can I use that quote?
734 2011-12-05 20:48:12 <justmoon> :P
735 2011-12-05 20:48:15 <[Tycho]> No :)
736 2011-12-05 20:48:22 <[Tycho]> (it's a joke)
737 2011-12-05 20:48:23 <cjdelisle> lol
738 2011-12-05 20:48:25 <gmaxwell> c_k: I'd expect the behavior is that pools would grow to the point where they start seeing fee inflation then the more sensitive miners would move. and it should reach an equilibrium which maximizes pool income and prevents too much consolidation.
739 2011-12-05 20:48:40 <c_k> justmoon: you mean pooled mining, right?
740 2011-12-05 20:48:53 <justmoon> c_k, no any kind of mining, people mostly do it for the money
741 2011-12-05 20:49:12 <c_k> justmoon: if people didn't mine, the network would grind to a halt
742 2011-12-05 20:49:34 <justmoon> yeah, those greedy fuckers with their making bitcoin possible
743 2011-12-05 20:49:39 <gmaxwell> hehe
744 2011-12-05 20:51:17 <c_k> gmaxwell: it is a nice idea but I don't see it happening voluntarily
745 2011-12-05 20:51:20 <justmoon> (if you haven't caught on, I'm disgruntled about the anticapitalist status quo - greed means you want to make money, making money means you provided a service or product that genuinely helped somebody)
746 2011-12-05 20:52:14 <helo> if a pool operator had malicious >50% intent, wouldn't they keep their fees as low as possible?
747 2011-12-05 20:53:31 <[Tycho]> I'm already keeping the highest fees, from the day one :)
748 2011-12-05 20:54:37 <Eliel> most people obviously don't really mind paying the 3% fee you take.
749 2011-12-05 20:54:47 <dub> which shows you cant expect people to act rationally
750 2011-12-05 20:55:08 <helo> if pool operators split their miners up into sub-pools, it might appear that the network was more secure than it really is
751 2011-12-05 20:55:30 <justmoon> dub: why is it irrational to pay something for a good service?
752 2011-12-05 20:55:40 <Eliel> but then, I guess newcomers would have tougher time getting people to pay the 3%.
753 2011-12-05 20:56:23 <c_k> justmoon: human nature is something we cannot change, no point in being disgruntled by it :)
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755 2011-12-05 20:56:36 <gmaxwell> Eliel: ideally we should find the fee that maximizes [Tycho]'s income while minimizing his hashrate. :)
756 2011-12-05 20:56:44 <justmoon> c_k: wise words, thanks :)
757 2011-12-05 20:56:52 <c_k> justmoon: haha
758 2011-12-05 20:57:18 <c_k> tbh, it was interesting flicking through what the wikipedia article has for human nature
759 2011-12-05 20:57:48 <justmoon> wikipedia is like flypaper for intellectuals
760 2011-12-05 20:57:50 <gmaxwell> For a given tradeoff between income and hashrate there is some fee which maximizes that objective. I doubt it's 3%. BTC's change to 5%/pps suggessts to me that the optimum is much higher even if minimizing hashrate is mostly unimportant to you.
761 2011-12-05 20:58:01 <justmoon> don't read it! you'll spend all day on it
762 2011-12-05 20:58:52 <Eliel> gmaxwell: yes, I think you're right, [Tycho] is obviously underpricing his fees :P
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765 2011-12-05 20:59:42 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: my PPS fee is 10%
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767 2011-12-05 21:00:35 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: I know— but did you lose a bunch of pps users after the change? As far as I can tell most BTCguild users just stayed when the fee went from 0 to 5. (perhaps justifying their decision w/ your PPS fees)
768 2011-12-05 21:00:50 <[Tycho]> What chage ?
769 2011-12-05 21:00:51 <Eliel> [Tycho]: just out of curiosity, how big percentage of the miners in your pool are using PPS?
770 2011-12-05 21:01:22 <[Tycho]> I think that my percentage of PPS users didn't changed.
771 2011-12-05 21:01:51 <[Tycho]> Usually they were trying to switch between PPS and Prop depending on past luck.
772 2011-12-05 21:02:00 <imsaguy> lol
773 2011-12-05 21:02:05 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: (BTC's change to PPS) right.. No shock to me. This _suggests_ some fair insensitivty to fees to me.
774 2011-12-05 21:02:11 <gmaxwell> haha
775 2011-12-05 21:02:12 <imsaguy> thats like switching colors at the roulette table
776 2011-12-05 21:02:27 <imsaguy> whatever helps you sleep at night
777 2011-12-05 21:02:33 <gmaxwell> yea, I heard people in #bitcoin-mining _insisting_ that they were making infinite money through that technique. :)
778 2011-12-05 21:03:08 <imsaguy> gmaxwell: you can't always believe the trolls
779 2011-12-05 21:03:11 <[Tycho]> Well, yes, they were making money for me.
780 2011-12-05 21:03:20 <imsaguy> as hard as it is to believe, people lie.
781 2011-12-05 21:03:49 <gmaxwell> imsaguy: hah, nah, people really were doing this (and [Tycho] seems to confirm...)
782 2011-12-05 21:04:01 <imsaguy> they were making infinite money?
783 2011-12-05 21:04:36 <[Tycho]> Not infinite, for sure.
784 2011-12-05 21:04:52 <gmaxwell> They weren't actually claiming infinite, of course.
785 2011-12-05 21:05:07 <gmaxwell> but they had figures about how they were making e.g. 20% more.
786 2011-12-05 21:05:17 <gmaxwell> (of course, they're ignoring all the times it lost them money)
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788 2011-12-05 21:06:14 <Eliel> perhaps they were actually kind of pool hopping?
789 2011-12-05 21:07:21 <gmaxwell> nah, well they _thought_ they were. But they didn't understand pool hopping.
790 2011-12-05 21:07:35 <gmaxwell> E.g. they though looking at past payoff windows on proportional pools mattered.
791 2011-12-05 21:08:26 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: you should offer a choice of multiple ineffective automattic hopping modes.
792 2011-12-05 21:08:39 <[Tycho]> :))
793 2011-12-05 21:08:52 <gmaxwell> E.g. "switch to PPS when proportional luck over the last 24 hours is less than X"
794 2011-12-05 21:09:25 <Eliel> this conversation is hilarious :D
795 2011-12-05 21:10:12 caedes_ has joined
796 2011-12-05 21:11:06 <gmaxwell> Would also be funny to have a I'm feeling lucky button.. that increases your variance by making your shares worth 1.95x or nothing (or something like that)
797 2011-12-05 21:11:56 <gmaxwell> Or .. perhaps rewards you the whole block with some low probablity in exchange for reducing your share value.
798 2011-12-05 21:12:46 <gmaxwell> "I'd never solo mine— I use BlockBonanza with DeepBit, you can't get that solo!"
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800 2011-12-05 21:13:57 <c_k> I am not sure a streak of luck and the illusion that it will continue fits the common understanding of the Gambler's Fallacy
801 2011-12-05 21:14:11 <c_k> but if it doesn't, what does it fit?
802 2011-12-05 21:14:52 <gmaxwell> It's the same kind of error.. but with the opposite sign.
803 2011-12-05 21:15:05 <c_k> oh
804 2011-12-05 21:15:10 <c_k> actually it does really
805 2011-12-05 21:15:12 <c_k> yeah
806 2011-12-05 21:15:42 <gmaxwell> Gambler's fallacy is that you'll return to the mean. What we see is people thinking the mean is irrelevant or something.
807 2011-12-05 21:16:00 <gmaxwell> Basically you first think this.. then you realize you're wrong and adopt the Gambler's fallacy and think you're really smart.
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809 2011-12-05 21:16:20 <c_k> belief that somehow the past means the future will be more likely to be something specific
810 2011-12-05 21:16:35 <imsaguy> gambler's fallacy is thinking past performance changes the outcome
811 2011-12-05 21:16:58 <gmaxwell> imsaguy: IIRC it's thinking that past performance will force the outcome in the opposite direction in order to preserve the average.
812 2011-12-05 21:17:10 <gmaxwell> (e.g. people adopt that position when they 'know' the process has a given average)
813 2011-12-05 21:17:18 <c_k> yeah thats the general definition
814 2011-12-05 21:17:19 <gmaxwell> E.g. There was just 50 black, so red is more likely.
815 2011-12-05 21:17:25 <imsaguy> I don't think the fallacy dictates one or the other
816 2011-12-05 21:17:35 <gmaxwell> Dunno, to wikipedia with us!
817 2011-12-05 21:17:37 <imsaguy> some gamblers think that because its been red 3 times in a row, it will be red again
818 2011-12-05 21:17:42 <imsaguy> 'streak'
819 2011-12-05 21:17:47 <imsaguy> others go the opposite way
820 2011-12-05 21:17:50 <imsaguy> either is wrong
821 2011-12-05 21:18:01 <gmaxwell> Wikipedia agrees with my understanding it— though that doesn't mean that there aren't other people who use it more generally.
822 2011-12-05 21:18:04 <c_k> but believing luck will continue when there has been a steak of it would also fit it imo
823 2011-12-05 21:18:41 <imsaguy> not a big deal
824 2011-12-05 21:18:45 <gmaxwell> In any case, what you call it isn't important.
825 2011-12-05 21:18:54 <imsaguy> its still wrong thinking
826 2011-12-05 21:19:02 <makomk> Hmmmm. Wouldn't the luck of the proportional pool over the last 24 hours be slightly correlated with the length of the current round?
827 2011-12-05 21:19:25 <gmaxwell> The unfortunate thing is that knowing about these biases makes you more likely to make mistakes too— e.g. it was really hard to convince people that pool hopping worked.
828 2011-12-05 21:19:36 <imsaguy> makomk: no.
829 2011-12-05 21:19:46 <gmaxwell> makomk: only to the extent that the current round is part of it.
830 2011-12-05 21:19:52 <gmaxwell> (e.g. not much for a large pool)
831 2011-12-05 21:20:08 <makomk> Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Probably not enough to be worth hopping on, but...
832 2011-12-05 21:20:19 <gmaxwell> If you want to avoid any real hopping, just make sure to make the decision only at round boundaries.
833 2011-12-05 21:22:02 <gmaxwell> e.g. "payout changes take effect at the next round" which sounds pretty reasonable generally.
834 2011-12-05 21:22:48 <gmaxwell> of course, there actually could be some systemic problem causing the reduced luck but they either cause orphans (irrelevant if the pool pays for orphans) or they cause lost/reject shares (screws you under any payout scheme)
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843 2011-12-05 21:47:21 <luke-jr> [16:14:51] <gmaxwell> Gambler's fallacy is that you'll return to the mean. What we see is people thinking the mean is irrelevant or something.
844 2011-12-05 21:47:22 <luke-jr> ^ wrong
845 2011-12-05 21:47:37 <luke-jr> Gambler's fallacy is that your next "roll" will be toward the mean.
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847 2011-12-05 21:47:49 <luke-jr> The Law of Large Numbers is that you'll return to the mean.
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855 2011-12-05 22:04:23 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, of course, that's why I asked ;)
856 2011-12-05 22:04:49 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: ⁇?
857 2011-12-05 22:04:57 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: in potentially infinite time!
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