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  19 2011-12-06 00:26:12 <Mqrius> Today I checked if there was any money at the address associated with the EC ground point. Turns out it has seen transfers, but is currently empty.
  20 2011-12-06 00:27:43 <makomk> EC ground point?
  21 2011-12-06 00:30:15 <gmaxwell> private key zer0
  22 2011-12-06 00:30:17 <gmaxwell> er zero
  23 2011-12-06 00:30:32 <gmaxwell> hilarious.
  24 2011-12-06 00:30:42 <luke-jr> O.o
  25 2011-12-06 00:30:43 <BlueMatt> probably some idiot who f'd up when trying to modify the client...
  26 2011-12-06 00:30:51 <luke-jr> what address is that, btw?
  27 2011-12-06 00:30:58 <gmaxwell> I .. am pretty sure one my old nodes had that imported.
  28 2011-12-06 00:31:07 <BlueMatt> (heh, like I did at one point, though with the non-spendable zero pubkey instead of zero privkey)
  29 2011-12-06 00:31:24 <gmaxwell> I imported a bunch of 'interesting' private keys.  (like all zero and all ones)
  30 2011-12-06 00:31:55 <luke-jr> Money laundering 2.0: just make up a number and hope your recipient thinks up the same
  31 2011-12-06 00:32:17 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
  32 2011-12-06 00:32:40 <luke-jr> so what address is EC ground?
  33 2011-12-06 00:34:53 <Mqrius> gmaxwell: private key 1, actually. Private key zero doesn't give any defined point in the field
  34 2011-12-06 00:35:26 <gmaxwell> dur, right, presumably the code wraps that up to 1 should it be requested.
  35 2011-12-06 00:35:43 <Mqrius> Depends on the code, I think.
  36 2011-12-06 00:35:55 <Mqrius> From an EC point of view, it's undefined
  37 2011-12-06 00:36:09 <[Tycho]> What is "EC" ?
  38 2011-12-06 00:36:14 <Mqrius> Elliptic Curve
  39 2011-12-06 00:36:19 <[Tycho]> Oh.
  40 2011-12-06 00:36:46 <Mqrius> luke-jr: Address 1EHNa6Q4Jz2uvNExL497mE43ikXhwF6kZm
  41 2011-12-06 00:36:55 <[Tycho]> Hmm, that's a funny way to create addresses.
  42 2011-12-06 00:36:59 <Mqrius> But don't worry, I already imported it in my wallet, and I'd beat you to it anyway :P
  43 2011-12-06 00:37:22 <Mqrius> [Tycho]: Any integer will do as a private key.
  44 2011-12-06 00:38:21 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you need some code that when it sees a txn to an address it has the privkey for.. it automatically drops the txn and creates its own.. spending it to you.
  45 2011-12-06 00:38:34 <[Tycho]> I wonder how one come up with the idea to check this address for bitcoins :)
  46 2011-12-06 00:38:37 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: why?
  47 2011-12-06 00:38:50 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: so you capture any coin sent to clever addresses.
  48 2011-12-06 00:39:05 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: only if his pool is faster.
  49 2011-12-06 00:39:12 <Mqrius> gmaxwell: You're better off actively monitoring transactions TO addresses you own. Then you're faster, and can't be beaten by other miners incorporating the transaction
  50 2011-12-06 00:39:33 <gmaxwell> Mqrius: duh, sure.
  51 2011-12-06 00:40:24 <Mqrius> [Tycho]: It had been floating in my mind for a while. Didn't get around to coding a script for it :)
  52 2011-12-06 00:40:51 caedes_ has joined
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  54 2011-12-06 00:41:09 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs spent a while generating a zillion keys that would have been the product of the busted debian version of openssl.
  55 2011-12-06 00:41:16 <gmaxwell> but didn't find anything at any of them
  56 2011-12-06 00:41:27 <Mqrius> lol
  57 2011-12-06 00:41:34 <gmaxwell> I think he generated 100 keys per possible pid.
  58 2011-12-06 00:41:43 <Mqrius> Nice idea though
  59 2011-12-06 00:42:16 <Mqrius> People should put more eastereggs on the blockchain. Bits of money on funny keys, or custom scripts which can be solved as a puzzle...
  60 2011-12-06 00:42:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: did one of those a while back, but I think only two people made a serious attempt to redeem it and we had problems mining the funny script required.
  61 2011-12-06 00:43:17 <gmaxwell> There was also some fun had on IRC giving out encrypted mtgox codes.
  62 2011-12-06 00:43:33 <Mqrius> Eligius (luke-jr) includes custom scripts if you send them to his server directly, no?
  63 2011-12-06 00:43:43 <Mqrius> encrypted by what?
  64 2011-12-06 00:43:47 <BlueMatt> yea, but its still not easy to get mined
  65 2011-12-06 00:43:50 <gmaxwell> Mqrius: eligius was broken at the time and not actually mining non-standard txn.
  66 2011-12-06 00:43:53 <Mqrius> ah
  67 2011-12-06 00:43:59 * luke-jr sends 500 BTC to 1111111111111111111114oLvT2
  68 2011-12-06 00:44:00 <gmaxwell> also, its hard to get things to eligius.
  69 2011-12-06 00:44:10 <Mqrius> luke-jr: I dare you
  70 2011-12-06 00:44:49 <gmaxwell> Mqrius: varrious things, that was the puzzle.
  71 2011-12-06 00:44:56 <Mqrius> right
  72 2011-12-06 00:45:08 <luke-jr> btw, anyone else annoyed a bit about how the new addresses don't begin with the same character? :/
  73 2011-12-06 00:45:21 <[Tycho]> Also I wonder how long should be the unknown address part to be cheaper to bruteforce than to mine same amount honestly :)
  74 2011-12-06 00:45:28 <gmaxwell> Mqrius: a couple people did mixtures of base64 and rot-13 ... then I did one that used the Burrows–Wheeler transform and it took people two days to solve it.
  75 2011-12-06 00:45:34 <luke-jr> about 50% of them begin with '2', but the rest start with 'o' through 'z'
  76 2011-12-06 00:46:03 <[Tycho]> multisig addresses ?
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  78 2011-12-06 00:46:12 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yuck. I really hate how our addresses work wrt that. The first digit should just be a byte, not base-58.
  79 2011-12-06 00:46:12 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: "version 2" addresses
  80 2011-12-06 00:46:20 <[Tycho]> Not funny, should all start on 2.
  81 2011-12-06 00:46:28 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: they can be for any kind of purpose
  82 2011-12-06 00:46:34 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: because of base-58 you can't do that.
  83 2011-12-06 00:46:39 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: or just remove the compression bit
  84 2011-12-06 00:46:52 <luke-jr> I think if you remove the compression from base58 it'd be more consistent
  85 2011-12-06 00:47:01 <[Tycho]> Hmm, may be we should decline mining for addresses that do not start with 1 or 2 ? :)
  86 2011-12-06 00:47:02 <luke-jr> would existing clients parse that?
  87 2011-12-06 00:47:16 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: then you create 50% chance of failure :P
  88 2011-12-06 00:47:32 <[Tycho]> Failure ?
  89 2011-12-06 00:47:33 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: gah, don't do that. Instead lets just change the spec to leave the version out of the base58 encoded part.
  90 2011-12-06 00:47:37 <gmaxwell> So then it can always be a 2.
  91 2011-12-06 00:47:41 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: since 50% of addresses DON'T begin with 2
  92 2011-12-06 00:47:43 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: good idea.
  93 2011-12-06 00:47:54 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not sane.
  94 2011-12-06 00:48:14 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: why not? the the address is just "2"{base58 stuff}.
  95 2011-12-06 00:48:29 <gmaxwell> strip the 2.. decode the base58 stuff. Done.
  96 2011-12-06 00:48:33 <[Tycho]> It's very good to know what type of address is that.
  97 2011-12-06 00:48:49 <[Tycho]> Otherwise there is no point in "1" and "2".
  98 2011-12-06 00:48:51 <gmaxwell> otoh, namecoin has survived fine with this...
  99 2011-12-06 00:49:06 <Mqrius> What are version 2 addresses anyway?...
 100 2011-12-06 00:49:15 <[Tycho]> Just let the first byte be a version.
 101 2011-12-06 00:49:21 <gmaxwell> Mqrius: addresses which specify payments to OP_EVAL outputs.
 102 2011-12-06 00:49:27 <Mqrius> right
 103 2011-12-06 00:49:50 <luke-jr> ie, any kind of script
 104 2011-12-06 00:49:53 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: will you ask Gavin about this ?
 105 2011-12-06 00:50:00 <gmaxwell> Already writing an email.
 106 2011-12-06 00:50:14 <[Tycho]> Tell him that I'm supporting this too.
 107 2011-12-06 00:50:48 <makomk> Hmmm. Is 2 something you can't get by careful selection of the *actual* version?
 108 2011-12-06 00:51:37 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
 109 2011-12-06 00:52:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell's concept is flawed
 110 2011-12-06 00:54:05 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Why do you say that?
 111 2011-12-06 00:58:16 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: because the version HAS to be part of the base58'd data..
 112 2011-12-06 00:58:20 <gmaxwell> They _already_ can't do anything useful with the new addresses. Since we have to teach them to do something useful, we can teach them to extract the byte. Yes, its some extra code, but its worth it so that all start with 2.
 113 2011-12-06 00:58:53 <gmaxwell> I don't see any reason why thats fundimental.
 114 2011-12-06 00:58:56 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: surely there's a saner way, by simply removing the leading-zero compression
 115 2011-12-06 00:59:06 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: the checksum assumes the version is part of it
 116 2011-12-06 00:59:23 <gmaxwell> Sure, you add the version back in before running the checksum.
 117 2011-12-06 00:59:35 <luke-jr> and special-case version 0?
 118 2011-12-06 00:59:41 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 119 2011-12-06 00:59:46 <luke-jr> and throw away all sipa's work in standardizing version numbers?
 120 2011-12-06 00:59:57 <gmaxwell> Yep.
 121 2011-12-06 01:00:15 <gmaxwell> (what I wrote to gavin after a choped version of the log: "The version could just be stuffed back in after decoding the base56 to
 122 2011-12-06 01:00:15 caedes_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 123 2011-12-06 01:00:18 <gmaxwell> make sure it's included in the "checksum" hash.")
 124 2011-12-06 01:00:22 <luke-jr> and reduce the version namespace to 22% of its original size?
 125 2011-12-06 01:00:38 <gmaxwell> Yep.
 126 2011-12-06 01:00:43 <luke-jr> you suck :P
 127 2011-12-06 01:00:49 <gmaxwell> I think its worth it.
 128 2011-12-06 01:00:54 <luke-jr> I don't.
 129 2011-12-06 01:01:00 caedes_ has joined
 130 2011-12-06 01:01:03 <luke-jr> not when there's a much cleaner way.
 131 2011-12-06 01:01:20 <gmaxwell> but that way doesn't always work.
 132 2011-12-06 01:01:31 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: you are wrong and we aren't.
 133 2011-12-06 01:01:40 <makomk> Why doesn't it work, sorry?
 134 2011-12-06 01:01:57 <gmaxwell> Mqrius: because for some version numbers you can't possibly keep the version number with a common single byte prefix.
 135 2011-12-06 01:02:13 <gmaxwell> because 58 doesn't divide 256 evenly.
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 137 2011-12-06 01:02:29 <[Tycho]> What first character will correspond to version 3 ?
 138 2011-12-06 01:02:41 <makomk> Are there any single byte prefixes that you can't get with an appropriate version number though?
 139 2011-12-06 01:02:44 <gmaxwell> This is why namecoin has addresses with both M and N.
 140 2011-12-06 01:03:00 <gmaxwell> (even though there is just one version number)
 141 2011-12-06 01:03:17 <[Tycho]> At least we can say that it's a namecoin address without inserting it somewhere.
 142 2011-12-06 01:03:44 <[Tycho]> So this should be true with mainline version numbers too.
 143 2011-12-06 01:03:45 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: yes you are.
 144 2011-12-06 01:05:02 <makomk> I think the majority of version numbers should result in a single prefix too, come to think of it.
 145 2011-12-06 01:05:54 <luke-jr> the currently unused version 1 yields [Q-Za-o]
 146 2011-12-06 01:06:12 <luke-jr> version 3 always begins with 2
 147 2011-12-06 01:06:25 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it would be interesting to see a table.
 148 2011-12-06 01:06:29 karnac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 149 2011-12-06 01:06:57 <luke-jr> version 4 begins with '2' 97% of the time, and the other 3% begins with '3'
 150 2011-12-06 01:07:21 <luke-jr> version 5 always begins with '3'
 151 2011-12-06 01:07:35 <luke-jr> same for ver 6
 152 2011-12-06 01:07:46 <luke-jr> ver 7 is split about 50/50 between '3' and '4'
 153 2011-12-06 01:08:00 <[Tycho]> Cool, so let's assign version "3" to OP_EVAL addresses.
 154 2011-12-06 01:08:02 <luke-jr> ver 8 is always '5'
 155 2011-12-06 01:08:20 <makomk> And so on, presumably.
 156 2011-12-06 01:08:26 <[Tycho]> Or, better, let's use first byte as a version.
 157 2011-12-06 01:08:42 <luke-jr> ver 9 is '4' 94% of the time, and the remaining 6% is '5'
 158 2011-12-06 01:09:02 <makomk> Should be a bit short of 200 different versions that lead to consistent initial bytes at a guess.
 159 2011-12-06 01:09:08 <makomk> INitial characters, even
 160 2011-12-06 01:09:14 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: the first byte is already the version. but addresses are encoded.
 161 2011-12-06 01:09:24 <[Tycho]> The first encoded byte.
 162 2011-12-06 01:09:49 <luke-jr> the encoded form isn't made of bytes
 163 2011-12-06 01:09:55 <[Tycho]> 34 versions should be enough for everyone.
 164 2011-12-06 01:10:07 <[Tycho]> Encoded form is made of characters.
 165 2011-12-06 01:10:39 <[Tycho]> Or 32...
 166 2011-12-06 01:10:42 <[Tycho]> 32 even better.
 167 2011-12-06 01:11:20 <makomk> You do realise that there are already a bunch of coins out there using the current scheme?
 168 2011-12-06 01:11:36 <[Tycho]> Where ?
 169 2011-12-06 01:12:16 <makomk> Take a look at the Alternate Currencies section of the forums.
 170 2011-12-06 01:12:23 <[Tycho]> Ok, first unencoded byte if it's not 1 :)
 171 2011-12-06 01:12:41 K0lky has quit (Quit: Bye bye!)
 172 2011-12-06 01:12:48 <[Tycho]> Alternative currencies will decay anyway.
 173 2011-12-06 01:13:40 <luke-jr> Deepbit will decay anyway.
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 175 2011-12-06 01:14:23 <gmaxwell> makomk: sure, but we can just avoid using their prefixes so long as anyone cares about them.
 176 2011-12-06 01:14:30 <gmaxwell> They'd fail to validate even if they did overlap.
 177 2011-12-06 01:16:07 <makomk> (Also, most of the altcoins managed to figure out how to get their preferred prefix just fine with the current versioning scheme...)
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 179 2011-12-06 01:17:25 <gmaxwell> makomk: did they?
 180 2011-12-06 01:17:39 <gmaxwell> As I mentioned N/M for namecoin, which is the most popular altchain.
 181 2011-12-06 01:18:25 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: every base58 char has at least one version that begins with only that char
 182 2011-12-06 01:19:01 <luke-jr>  0    => 1,  3    => 2,  5- 6 => 3,  8    => 4,  a- b => 5,  d    => 6,  f-10 => 7, 12    => 8, 14-15 => 9, 17    => A, 19-1a => B, 1c    => C, 1e-1f => D, 21    => E, 23-24 => F, 26    => G, , 28-29 => H, 2b    => J, 2d-2e => K, 30    => L, 32-33 => M, 35    => N, 37-38 => P, 3a    => Q
 183 2011-12-06 01:19:02 <luke-jr> etc
 184 2011-12-06 01:19:13 <gmaxwell> ahh.
 185 2011-12-06 01:19:18 <luke-jr> only version 2 seems to be all over the place
 186 2011-12-06 01:19:34 <luke-jr> the rest not listed above are part of each surrounding letter
 187 2011-12-06 01:19:50 <luke-jr> ok, ver 1 and 2
 188 2011-12-06 01:20:02 <luke-jr> ver 0 and 3+ are at most 2 starting chars
 189 2011-12-06 01:22:31 <luke-jr> also, 91-ff all begin with '2'
 190 2011-12-06 01:22:43 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
 191 2011-12-06 01:22:57 <doublec> solidcoin uses S but there's overlap and they iterate in getnewaddress until an S is found iirc
 192 2011-12-06 01:23:21 <doublec> not that anyone cares about solidcoin here I'm sure :)
 193 2011-12-06 01:23:26 <luke-jr> LOL fail
 194 2011-12-06 01:23:41 <luke-jr> version 3f is ALWAYS 'S'
 195 2011-12-06 01:24:11 <doublec> maybe it's 's'
 196 2011-12-06 01:24:18 <doublec> I forget
 197 2011-12-06 01:25:20 <luke-jr> ver 7d then
 198 2011-12-06 01:26:03 <makomk> 0x7d appears to be the version Solidcoin uses.
 199 2011-12-06 01:26:20 <doublec> yes, it is
 200 2011-12-06 01:26:25 <luke-jr> O.o
 201 2011-12-06 01:26:29 <luke-jr> so they have a useless iteration?
 202 2011-12-06 01:26:35 <luke-jr> "just in case"? XD
 203 2011-12-06 01:27:14 <makomk> I don't remember seeing any code to do that, so I think doublec may be misremembering.
 204 2011-12-06 01:27:55 <doublec> odd, it's only the ui code that does it
 205 2011-12-06 01:27:58 <doublec> makomk: ui.cpp
 206 2011-12-06 01:28:06 <doublec> makomk: in OnButtonNew
 207 2011-12-06 01:28:43 <makomk> Oh, you're right. How pointless.
 208 2011-12-06 01:28:44 <luke-jr> lol, SC is based on wx still?
 209 2011-12-06 01:29:38 <doublec> a lot of the alt coins are based on slightly older bitcoin versions
 210 2011-12-06 01:31:00 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 211 2011-12-06 01:31:09 <cocktopus> litecoin is all qt and stuff ;)
 212 2011-12-06 01:31:09 <makomk> gmaxwell: anyway, namecoin is a bit unusual in not having a consistent prefix to its addresses.
 213 2011-12-06 01:33:00 wolfspraul has joined
 214 2011-12-06 01:33:22 <luke-jr> IFF the address format were to be redone, I think it should be 1 char chain ID, 1 char data type ;)
 215 2011-12-06 01:33:36 <luke-jr> ie, Bitcoin, testnet, namecoin based on 1st char
 216 2011-12-06 01:34:03 <luke-jr> and private key, public key, pubkey hash, etc based on 2nd char
 217 2011-12-06 01:34:32 <gmaxwell> and a proper error correcting code rather than this stupid sha256 crap that admits many off by ones?
 218 2011-12-06 01:34:49 <gmaxwell> And a constant length?
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 231 2011-12-06 02:18:12 <Lunaqus> -+
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 249 2011-12-06 03:16:25 <BlueMatt> arg, why did google change (incorrectly) their ip list and now think Im in france???
 250 2011-12-06 03:16:28 <BlueMatt> wtf TD[gone]
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 252 2011-12-06 03:26:52 <Lunaqus> ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
 253 2011-12-06 03:26:52 <Lunaqus> ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
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 255 2011-12-06 03:26:52 <Lunaqus> ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
 256 2011-12-06 03:26:52 <Lunaqus> ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
 257 2011-12-06 03:26:52 <Lunaqus> ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
 258 2011-12-06 03:26:52 <Lunaqus> ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
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 262 2011-12-06 03:26:54 <Lunaqus> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
 263 2011-12-06 03:26:55 <Lunaqus> +
 264 2011-12-06 03:27:00 <BlueMatt> oops
 265 2011-12-06 03:27:36 <hippich> snow...
 266 2011-12-06 03:27:40 <hippich> it is cold outside..
 267 2011-12-06 03:27:45 <luke-jr> lol
 268 2011-12-06 03:28:09 <hippich> even with 0.33 snowing days in texas, it is still cold..
 269 2011-12-06 03:29:15 <cocktopus> lol fell asleap on the keyboard
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 308 2011-12-06 05:33:33 <nanotube> are there still blockchain snapshots out there somewhere?
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 310 2011-12-06 05:35:03 <gmaxwell> yes
 311 2011-12-06 05:35:16 <gmaxwell> nanotube: http://eu1.bitcoincharts.com/blockchain/
 312 2011-12-06 05:35:32 <gmaxwell> Why?
 313 2011-12-06 05:35:53 <BlueMatt> nanotube doesnt have an up-to-date(ish) copy of the chain sitting around on multiple computers?
 314 2011-12-06 05:35:59 <BlueMatt> Im disappointed
 315 2011-12-06 05:36:06 <nanotube> no just talking with a guy who's redownloading the chain :)
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 317 2011-12-06 05:36:14 <BlueMatt> oh, good
 318 2011-12-06 05:36:25 <nanotube> my blockchain is all fine and dandy here :)
 319 2011-12-06 05:36:54 <gmaxwell> has anyone published oprofile output from a machine synching the chain?
 320 2011-12-06 05:37:33 <BlueMatt> not afaik, but Id venture to say the actual limits are pretty well known
 321 2011-12-06 05:37:40 <BlueMatt> (mostly hdd limits...)
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 324 2011-12-06 05:38:29 <gmaxwell> sure, yes, I observed that it was much faster on SSD and faster still on tmpfs.  It's still slow running out of ram and syncing from a local fast host however.
 325 2011-12-06 05:38:34 <BlueMatt> cpu, disk, cpu, disk, cpu, disk repeat...
 326 2011-12-06 05:38:48 <BlueMatt> cpu being checksumming and tx validation
 327 2011-12-06 05:38:56 <BlueMatt> and other block validation
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 330 2011-12-06 05:41:47 <gmaxwell> this is all what I assume too. Sometimes the profiles can be surprising, at least if no one has actually looked at once.
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 350 2011-12-06 07:20:17 <Diablo-D3> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3317856
 351 2011-12-06 07:20:23 <Diablo-D3> people with hn accounts, upvote positive bitcoin comments
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 377 2011-12-06 09:09:08 <snimpy> ;;bc,deepbit
 378 2011-12-06 09:09:24 <snimpy> ;;asks
 379 2011-12-06 09:09:25 <gribble> (asks [--over] <pricetarget>) -- Calculate the amount of bitcoins for sale at or under <pricetarget>. If '--over' option is given, find coins or at or over <pricetarget>.
 380 2011-12-06 09:09:45 <snimpy> ;;asks --over 2
 381 2011-12-06 09:09:46 <gribble> There are currently 46672.669 bitcoins offered at or over 2.0 USD, worth 150571.189759 USD in total.
 382 2011-12-06 09:10:09 <snimpy> ;;asks --over 2
 383 2011-12-06 09:10:10 <gribble> There are currently 46755.493 bitcoins offered at or over 2.0 USD, worth 150828.512363 USD in total.
 384 2011-12-06 09:10:16 <snimpy> ;;asks --over 2
 385 2011-12-06 09:10:16 <gribble> There are currently 46755.493 bitcoins offered at or over 2.0 USD, worth 150828.512363 USD in total.
 386 2011-12-06 09:10:18 <snimpy> ;;asks --over 2
 387 2011-12-06 09:10:19 <gribble> There are currently 46452.226 bitcoins offered at or over 2.0 USD, worth 149898.684336 USD in total.
 388 2011-12-06 09:10:42 <snimpy>  ;;bids --over 2
 389 2011-12-06 09:10:52 <snimpy> ;;bids
 390 2011-12-06 09:10:52 <gribble> (bids [--under] <pricetarget>) -- Calculate the amount of bitcoin demanded at or over <pricetarget>. If '--under' option is given, find coins or at or under <pricetarget>.
 391 2011-12-06 09:11:00 <snimpy> ;;bids --under 3
 392 2011-12-06 09:11:01 <gribble> There are currently 41109.613 bitcoins demanded at or under 3.0 USD, worth 113209.128013 USD in total.
 393 2011-12-06 09:11:13 <snimpy> ;;bids --under 4
 394 2011-12-06 09:11:14 <gribble> There are currently 41968.361 bitcoins demanded at or under 4.0 USD, worth 115814.605283 USD in total.
 395 2011-12-06 09:11:21 <snimpy> ;;bids --under 4
 396 2011-12-06 09:11:21 <gribble> There are currently 41968.361 bitcoins demanded at or under 4.0 USD, worth 115814.605283 USD in total.
 397 2011-12-06 09:11:23 <snimpy> ;;bids --under 4
 398 2011-12-06 09:11:23 <gribble> There are currently 41968.361 bitcoins demanded at or under 4.0 USD, worth 115814.605283 USD in total.
 399 2011-12-06 09:11:33 <snimpy> ;;asks --over 2
 400 2011-12-06 09:11:34 <gribble> There are currently 47548.118 bitcoins offered at or over 2.0 USD, worth 153842.908243 USD in total.
 401 2011-12-06 09:11:49 <snimpy> ;;asks --over 2
 402 2011-12-06 09:11:49 <gribble> There are currently 47304.736 bitcoins offered at or over 2.0 USD, worth 153107.507199 USD in total.
 403 2011-12-06 09:11:53 <snimpy> ;;asks --over 2
 404 2011-12-06 09:11:54 <gribble> There are currently 47304.736 bitcoins offered at or over 2.0 USD, worth 153107.507199 USD in total.
 405 2011-12-06 09:13:12 <gmaxwell> snimpy: you can talk to gribble in private, please do.
 406 2011-12-06 09:15:48 <snimpy> kk
 407 2011-12-06 09:16:10 <snimpy> didnt watch sry
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 413 2011-12-06 09:47:36 <a_meteorite> on the same topic as what Diablo-D3 posted, upvote comments suggesting bitcoin http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/n1yx1/scumbag_paypal/
 414 2011-12-06 09:48:20 <Diablo-D3> /r/WTF
 415 2011-12-06 09:48:21 <Diablo-D3> lol
 416 2011-12-06 09:48:42 <a_meteorite> Diablo-D3: yeah, paypal pulling that crap really isn't WTF...
 417 2011-12-06 09:48:47 <a_meteorite> but it is on the front page
 418 2011-12-06 09:48:57 <Diablo-D3> its a wtf the first time it happened
 419 2011-12-06 09:49:08 <Diablo-D3> this is clearly /r/business-as-usual
 420 2011-12-06 09:49:15 <a_meteorite> yeah..
 421 2011-12-06 09:53:33 <wboy1> Hi guysn,any crypto's that are interested to join an early stage bitcoin-related startup,drop me a message,thanks!
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 423 2011-12-06 10:05:13 <JFK911> ban wboy1 for this spam please
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 553 2011-12-06 16:10:45 <gribble> 3050978000
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 555 2011-12-06 16:11:44 <BlueMatt> nanotube?
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 578 2011-12-06 16:59:29 <[Tycho]> Hello, devs.
 579 2011-12-06 16:59:46 <Diablo-D3> what did you break now, [Tycho]
 580 2011-12-06 17:00:39 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 581 2011-12-06 17:00:43 <[Tycho]> Not yet.
 582 2011-12-06 17:00:45 <Diablo-D3> lol TD ran away
 583 2011-12-06 17:01:59 <_Fireball> Hello [Tycho]
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 588 2011-12-06 17:12:18 <[Tycho]> !seen gmaxwell
 589 2011-12-06 17:12:18 <gribble> gmaxwell was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 7 hours, 59 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <gmaxwell> snimpy: you can talk to gribble in private, please do.
 590 2011-12-06 17:12:19 <spaola> [Tycho], gmaxwell is right here!
 591 2011-12-06 17:13:49 <cjdelisle> hehe
 592 2011-12-06 17:14:00 <_Fireball> gribble disagrees ;)
 593 2011-12-06 17:14:28 <[Tycho]> May be gribble was just not looking at the channel recently.
 594 2011-12-06 17:14:39 <cjdelisle> "you can talk to gribble in private, please get a room"
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 597 2011-12-06 17:18:18 <graingert> so cold...
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 599 2011-12-06 17:19:19 <[Tycho]> Yes.
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 614 2011-12-06 18:09:20 <nanotube> BlueMatt: haha some network lags.
 615 2011-12-06 18:09:27 <nanotube> nothing to see here
 616 2011-12-06 18:09:43 <BlueMatt> nanotube: and the random nonsensical printing?
 617 2011-12-06 18:11:03 <nanotube> what random nonsensical printing?
 618 2011-12-06 18:11:32 <nanotube> [08:33:45] <snimpy> [01:08:14] ;;bc,deepbit
 619 2011-12-06 18:11:38 <nanotube> [11:09:49] <gribble> 3050978000
 620 2011-12-06 18:11:45 <nanotube> very sensible. :)
 621 2011-12-06 18:11:49 <nanotube> just very (very) delayed
 622 2011-12-06 18:13:24 <BlueMatt> ahhh
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 625 2011-12-06 18:19:44 <nanotube> a sufficiently advanced technology^Wdelay is indistinguishable from magic^Wnonsense. :D
 626 2011-12-06 18:24:13 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
 627 2011-12-06 18:24:16 <[Tycho]> I wonder why only chinese sales representatives can directly answer to questions on pricing.
 628 2011-12-06 18:25:00 <[Tycho]> European and american ones only ask "How much do you want to spend on this ?" or "What is your budget for this project ?" and so on.
 629 2011-12-06 18:25:52 <ThomasV> what are you buying?
 630 2011-12-06 18:25:57 arneis has joined
 631 2011-12-06 18:26:37 <[Tycho]> Not really buying, ordering ASICs.
 632 2011-12-06 18:27:25 <[Tycho]> But it's the same happens for buying too.
 633 2011-12-06 18:27:45 <makomk> Interesting.
 634 2011-12-06 18:30:14 <cocktopus> nice, sounds like [Tycho] is jumping in with both feet and going whole hog at it ;)
 635 2011-12-06 18:31:23 <[Tycho]> cocktopus: I just need some hashpower.
 636 2011-12-06 18:31:33 <cocktopus> lol, you don't have enough?
 637 2011-12-06 18:31:41 <cjdelisle> haha tycho needs hashpower
 638 2011-12-06 18:31:48 <cocktopus> he need MOAR
 639 2011-12-06 18:31:52 <cocktopus> NAO
 640 2011-12-06 18:32:12 <cjdelisle> tx rollback business? :P
 641 2011-12-06 18:32:32 <[Tycho]> No, selling shovels business.
 642 2011-12-06 18:33:14 <cocktopus> [Tycho]: be sure to put in an ethernet port and ipv6 support, along with a controller that can make it so it can run standalone
 643 2011-12-06 18:33:28 <[Tycho]> Who would need ipv6 ?
 644 2011-12-06 18:33:32 <cjdelisle> I didn't mean to spend that --> charge it back, with New Deepbit™ Chargebacks Plus™
 645 2011-12-06 18:33:42 <cocktopus> also, if the power usage is low enough, look into making it work with Power over Ethernet
 646 2011-12-06 18:33:57 <cocktopus> cjdelisle: lol
 647 2011-12-06 18:34:14 <makomk> I actually still haven't figured out why BFL haven't included ethernet support, but that's another story entirely...
 648 2011-12-06 18:34:18 <BlueMatt> oh, and of course make sure the miner works only with deepbit (of course so that it is easier for deepbit users, not to cut others out)
 649 2011-12-06 18:34:23 <[Tycho]> Actually I'm just thinking about real daisychaining, not requiring separate USB for each board.
 650 2011-12-06 18:34:24 <cocktopus> ipv6, if you are going to make as many as the grains of the sand and sell them to random users ;)
 651 2011-12-06 18:34:52 <[Tycho]> Ethernet controller would add costs and is not needed.
 652 2011-12-06 18:34:59 <cocktopus> daisy-chain how? using BACnet?
 653 2011-12-06 18:35:13 <cocktopus> or do you mean having a USB-host controller
 654 2011-12-06 18:35:19 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 655 2011-12-06 18:35:32 <[Tycho]> If someone is going to build a big farm then additional cost for Ethernet controllers on each board will be considerable.
 656 2011-12-06 18:35:37 <gmaxwell> just serial, jeez, no big deal. If you want to be fancy you could use RS-422 .. then you could put your miners at the ends of looong cables. :)
 657 2011-12-06 18:35:50 <[Tycho]> AFAIK, PoE switches are really expensive.
 658 2011-12-06 18:35:54 <gmaxwell> not just cost, but they consume power, radiate heat, and fail.
 659 2011-12-06 18:36:19 <gmaxwell> poe? yuck. yea, the injection and pulloff for that are annoying.
 660 2011-12-06 18:36:44 <cocktopus> yeah it may not apply to this application, but don't discount it in other applications
 661 2011-12-06 18:36:56 <cocktopus> i find it useful for remote cameras and APs
 662 2011-12-06 18:37:26 <BlueMatt> damn it google, Im not in fucking france, change my language back
 663 2011-12-06 18:37:54 <cocktopus> http://www.google.com/ncr <-- disables country recognition
 664 2011-12-06 18:37:54 <gmaxwell> yea, it's useful.. for cameras and phones.
 665 2011-12-06 18:38:10 <BlueMatt> cocktopus: shame it doesnt work for market.android.com
 666 2011-12-06 18:38:38 <cocktopus> bluematt: lame
 667 2011-12-06 18:39:27 <[Tycho]> Yeah. 1 Gh/s remote cameras anyone ? :)
 668 2011-12-06 18:39:45 <gmaxwell> heh.
 669 2011-12-06 18:39:57 <gmaxwell> I could mine on my elphel camera pretty easily.
 670 2011-12-06 18:40:19 <gmaxwell> the fpga is only a s3-1800 part though, it wouldn't be very fast. Maybe 1/MH/s?
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 674 2011-12-06 18:41:59 <[Tycho]> cocktopus: considering RS-485, 1Wire or custom solution.
 675 2011-12-06 18:42:16 <cocktopus> RS-485 is an oldie but a goodie
 676 2011-12-06 18:42:31 <cocktopus> 1wire also sounds interesting, but i haven't used it much
 677 2011-12-06 18:43:06 <gmaxwell> With all those things I'd worry a little about a failed unit jamming the bus.
 678 2011-12-06 18:43:40 <cocktopus> so you would still go with a star topology?
 679 2011-12-06 18:43:43 <[Tycho]> By definition, RS-422 does not allow multiple drivers but only multiple receivers.
 680 2011-12-06 18:44:03 <[Tycho]> No, not star.
 681 2011-12-06 18:44:13 <cocktopus> sorry i meant gmaxwell
 682 2011-12-06 18:45:01 <cocktopus> daisy-chain of course can fail on a single node, but some different types can better recover from a failure of only one node
 683 2011-12-06 18:45:02 <[Tycho]> I used 1Wire, it's nice and allows many receivers, but also lacks good system for signaling to host.
 684 2011-12-06 18:45:24 <gmaxwell> Yea, I dunno. My reflex would be to build a ring of duplex serial links. But the reality is that a simple star with cheaper parts might not cost anything more to build.
 685 2011-12-06 18:46:08 <[Tycho]> I really don't like current 1board-1USB approach.
 686 2011-12-06 18:46:13 <gmaxwell> (a ring of duplex links would survive one device failure)
 687 2011-12-06 18:46:36 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: build bigger boards... the cheapness of usb due to mass scale is hard to argue with.
 688 2011-12-06 18:46:42 <[Tycho]> ngzhang has hardware support for chaining, but the firmware still doesn't supports it.
 689 2011-12-06 18:46:51 <cocktopus> well my feeling is that if you are linking more than 10 of them, you would simply go with a multi-board solution in one case
 690 2011-12-06 18:47:07 <cocktopus> instead of a longer chain
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 692 2011-12-06 18:50:46 <BlueMatt> damn it google, I dont want to pay in goddamn euros, I live in the US ffs
 693 2011-12-06 18:50:57 <[Tycho]> I'll possibly try to make the board size match 2.5" HDD, but it depends on heat dissipation requirments.
 694 2011-12-06 18:51:10 <[Tycho]> This way small HDD boxes can be used as cases.
 695 2011-12-06 18:51:23 <[Tycho]> (for single-unit customers)
 696 2011-12-06 18:55:16 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
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 703 2011-12-06 19:05:15 <c_k> [Tycho]: will you sell these devices to the public?
 704 2011-12-06 19:05:30 <[Tycho]> Definitely.
 705 2011-12-06 19:05:49 <[Tycho]> Why else would I create them ? :)
 706 2011-12-06 19:06:10 <c_k> people like artforz make their own devices and don't really share them ;)
 707 2011-12-06 19:06:19 <c_k> it is refreshing to see someone willing to share :)
 708 2011-12-06 19:07:51 <cjdelisle> So someone is making a sha256 asic or is it more general purpose?
 709 2011-12-06 19:08:05 <[Tycho]> I'll quote again :) "It wasn't the miners who got rich, it was the people who sold the picks and shovels"
 710 2011-12-06 19:08:25 <cjdelisle> oh right, selling shovels, now I get it
 711 2011-12-06 19:09:13 lianj has joined
 712 2011-12-06 19:09:18 <cjdelisle> so this is the butterfly labs sha256 asic or it is an fpga type thing?
 713 2011-12-06 19:09:39 <[Tycho]> BFL is FPGA. Or, may be, easypath-like.
 714 2011-12-06 19:10:15 <cjdelisle> ahh, I'm mildly interested in little boxen that can do high speed crypto of packets which pass through them
 715 2011-12-06 19:10:31 <cjdelisle> but it's only a passive intrest really
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 718 2011-12-06 19:11:45 <rjk2> yeah, i want a nice little WPA crack-in-a-box, and it seems the BFL might have the tech to do it
 719 2011-12-06 19:12:34 cocktopus has left ("Over and out")
 720 2011-12-06 19:12:42 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: the little amd e350s that have builtin radeons aren't awful for that considering power consumption
 721 2011-12-06 19:13:09 <rjk2> yes quite so
 722 2011-12-06 19:13:27 <cjdelisle> if you want to seriously attack wpa you probably want something more like a 5970
 723 2011-12-06 19:13:28 <rjk2> my plan was to make a Nano-ITX based system paired with a BFL box
 724 2011-12-06 19:13:45 <jrmithdobbs> planning on doing something like that with the one i have. have it sit and scan for/bruteforce rogue networks ;p
 725 2011-12-06 19:14:11 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: i just have one of the little zotac zbox things from a failed experiment for something else
 726 2011-12-06 19:14:22 <cjdelisle> I'm more interested in encrypting and decrypting large amounts of traffic quickly
 727 2011-12-06 19:14:28 <rjk2> i asked in the thread if BFL would sell me those sweet little boxes with no guts, but haven't heard back yet
 728 2011-12-06 19:14:36 <jrmithdobbs> e350 + 4GB ram + iscsi boot (pxe->gpxe chainload)
 729 2011-12-06 19:14:53 <rjk2> jrmithdobbs: those things seem cool
 730 2011-12-06 19:15:06 <rjk2> they are nano-itx right?
 731 2011-12-06 19:15:11 <cjdelisle> where do you get these?
 732 2011-12-06 19:15:15 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: the iscsi target that's booting off of does ~200-350M/s aes256-xts to it's arrays ;p
 733 2011-12-06 19:15:16 <rjk2> or are they mini-itx
 734 2011-12-06 19:15:22 <[Tycho]> cjdelisle: encrypting is far easier than mining. By many orders of magnitude.
 735 2011-12-06 19:15:41 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: think they're there own form factor
 736 2011-12-06 19:15:45 <jrmithdobbs> s/there/their/
 737 2011-12-06 19:15:48 <rjk2> hm ok
 738 2011-12-06 19:15:54 <[Tycho]> Depending on your task, you may just use any hardware VPN box.
 739 2011-12-06 19:16:15 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: meh, the atom/e350s are cheaper and faster
 740 2011-12-06 19:16:16 <rjk2> yeah i wasn't able to determine the size of the BFL boxes, i know nano-itx is 120mm square
 741 2011-12-06 19:16:19 <cjdelisle> yea, I'm thinkng something like 100Mb/s of salsa20/poly1305 decryption and re-encryption
 742 2011-12-06 19:16:38 <cjdelisle> a geode might be enough to do it, I have not really looked in to it
 743 2011-12-06 19:16:43 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: well 200-350M/s is with i5 aes accel
 744 2011-12-06 19:16:52 <jrmithdobbs> (and that's megabyte not bit)
 745 2011-12-06 19:16:59 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: and 6 spindles
 746 2011-12-06 19:16:59 <cjdelisle> /nod
 747 2011-12-06 19:17:14 <cjdelisle> aes doesn't really impress me
 748 2011-12-06 19:17:32 <jrmithdobbs> it's adequate for this task
 749 2011-12-06 19:17:49 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: depends on the task. Sometimes it's easier to use solution-in-a-box than configure some linuxes.
 750 2011-12-06 19:17:57 <jrmithdobbs> what else are you going to use on 2TB+ arrays where you still need decent performance?
 751 2011-12-06 19:18:16 <cjdelisle> yea, if geodes aren't fast enough I'd probably go with wpa w/ really big passwd
 752 2011-12-06 19:18:39 <jrmithdobbs> the aes accel in the geodes is pretty crap
 753 2011-12-06 19:18:44 <jrmithdobbs> i added a vpn1411 to mine
 754 2011-12-06 19:18:51 <jrmithdobbs> (mostly for the rng, though)
 755 2011-12-06 19:19:03 <cjdelisle> if I do my own crypto it will be salsa20
 756 2011-12-06 19:19:30 <jrmithdobbs> salsa20 needs sse2 for the good impl
 757 2011-12-06 19:19:41 <jrmithdobbs> geodes don't have sse2
 758 2011-12-06 19:19:44 <gmaxwell> don't underestimate the value of intensive public review. AES is kinda lame— yes, but man has it had review.
 759 2011-12-06 19:19:47 lianj has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 760 2011-12-06 19:20:14 <rjk2> heh, its been around for ever
 761 2011-12-06 19:20:24 <rjk2> which means that is is secure
 762 2011-12-06 19:20:32 <jrmithdobbs> ya, worst case with aes and a 256bit key is like 2^96 with a related key (irrelevent) attack and 2^95 (?) with whatever that new aes128 thing was
 763 2011-12-06 19:20:52 <cjdelisle> AMD's fusions are interesting for high speed crypto
 764 2011-12-06 19:21:00 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: salsa20 is great and all, but it's not received near the same level of review
 765 2011-12-06 19:21:06 <cjdelisle> make little router boxen
 766 2011-12-06 19:21:12 <rjk2> jrmithdobbs: quite so
 767 2011-12-06 19:21:18 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: you mean the e350s and such?
 768 2011-12-06 19:21:22 <cjdelisle> /nod
 769 2011-12-06 19:21:27 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: because i disagree. they are quite lackluster
 770 2011-12-06 19:21:42 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: the atoms do better in my testing
 771 2011-12-06 19:21:48 <cjdelisle> interesting
 772 2011-12-06 19:22:00 <jrmithdobbs> because they have the aes instructions
 773 2011-12-06 19:22:02 <cjdelisle> Atoms have integrated video cards?
 774 2011-12-06 19:22:05 <rjk2> jrmithdobbs: have you tested the newer dual-core atoms
 775 2011-12-06 19:22:12 <gmaxwell> If you can afford the performance hit nesting AES with "something else" with unrelated keys is an improvement if you're super paranoid. This gets even easier as things add hardware aes accel.
 776 2011-12-06 19:22:12 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: oh for cracking no, the fusions are good for that ;p
 777 2011-12-06 19:22:25 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: ya d525s and current gen e350s is my reference point
 778 2011-12-06 19:22:30 <rjk2> nice
 779 2011-12-06 19:23:14 <cjdelisle> the thing about an e350 is you can do crypto in any algo you like and it will be pretty fast if you use the radeon stuff
 780 2011-12-06 19:23:32 <cjdelisle> (theoretically ofc)
 781 2011-12-06 19:23:37 <jrmithdobbs> depends on application
 782 2011-12-06 19:23:55 <jrmithdobbs> eg, for writing to disks that sucks because you get squashed down to one thread no matter how many spindles
 783 2011-12-06 19:24:22 <cjdelisle> more like reading and writing to network devices
 784 2011-12-06 19:24:26 larsivi has joined
 785 2011-12-06 19:24:33 <cjdelisle> dma and dma
 786 2011-12-06 19:24:54 <jrmithdobbs> same thing applies just you have less bandwidth overall to work with with network so less likely to hit cpu limits
 787 2011-12-06 19:25:48 <jrmithdobbs> the max with 2 threads of actual data going through dm_crypt seemed to peak at a bit over 100M/s if *anything* (even fs accounting type stuff) else was going on on the machines
 788 2011-12-06 19:26:07 <jrmithdobbs> ~120M/s to be exact
 789 2011-12-06 19:26:19 <cjdelisle> hardware aes makes a lot of sense if it can be tricked into providing replay prevention and authentication.
 790 2011-12-06 19:27:12 <cjdelisle> which it really only needs authentication if you use a counter as a nonce, replay prevention is pretty easy
 791 2011-12-06 19:27:22 <cjdelisle> if you don't mind losing old packets
 792 2011-12-06 19:27:27 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: my geode 450 runs an aes256 vpn end point (5Mb up 30Mb down) full speed no problem, btw, for reference
 793 2011-12-06 19:27:50 <cjdelisle> is that hardware aes?
 794 2011-12-06 19:28:01 <jrmithdobbs> ya on a hifn card
 795 2011-12-06 19:28:03 <cjdelisle> sorry for my ignorance on the technology..
 796 2011-12-06 19:28:49 <jrmithdobbs> geode has some builtin accel but the machine has a hifn7955 that also does aes-cbc accel ... box is using both
 797 2011-12-06 19:29:14 <jrmithdobbs> hifn0 at pci0 dev 12 function 0 "Hifn 7955/7954" rev 0x00: LZS 3DES ARC4 MD5 SHA1 RNG AES PK, 32KB dram, irq 9
 798 2011-12-06 19:29:23 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: you run a vpn with asymmetric bw?
 799 2011-12-06 19:29:25 <BlueMatt> why?
 800 2011-12-06 19:29:38 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: that's just what the link here is
 801 2011-12-06 19:29:56 <BlueMatt> mmm, well as long as its not your upstream endpoint...
 802 2011-12-06 19:30:07 <jrmithdobbs> no this is the endpoint at my house
 803 2011-12-06 19:30:14 <jrmithdobbs> otherside is in a datacenter on level3/cogent
 804 2011-12-06 19:30:19 <BlueMatt> mmm, fair enough
 805 2011-12-06 19:30:33 <jrmithdobbs> actually might be xo/cogent now
 806 2011-12-06 19:30:34 <jrmithdobbs> w/e
 807 2011-12-06 19:30:44 <BlueMatt> hopefully not, cogent sucks huge balls
 808 2011-12-06 19:30:53 <jrmithdobbs> not really
 809 2011-12-06 19:31:03 <jrmithdobbs> they've improved quite a bit the last decade
 810 2011-12-06 19:31:20 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 811 2011-12-06 19:31:22 <jrmithdobbs> and they're actually peered quite well now
 812 2011-12-06 19:31:27 <BlueMatt> somewhat, but they are still cheap and rip people off when they can
 813 2011-12-06 19:31:35 <BlueMatt> (and get cut off because of it)
 814 2011-12-06 19:31:40 <jrmithdobbs> oh sure, dealing with them directly is annoying as fuck
 815 2011-12-06 19:31:43 <jrmithdobbs> but I don't have to ;p
 816 2011-12-06 19:31:46 <BlueMatt> they have good bw, but occasionally they fuck you
 817 2011-12-06 19:32:04 <jrmithdobbs> ya i used to work at the place that box is
 818 2011-12-06 19:32:10 <jrmithdobbs> hated dealing with them
 819 2011-12-06 19:32:15 <BlueMatt> as in depeering and making your connection fucked for some destinations..
 820 2011-12-06 19:32:34 <jrmithdobbs> but once we actually got our redundant links setup *properly* and a few other things and no longer actually had to deal with them at all they're fine;p
 821 2011-12-06 19:32:45 <BlueMatt> heh, yep
 822 2011-12-06 19:33:10 <jrmithdobbs> haha, i remember, what was that 7 years ago when they pissed off xo
 823 2011-12-06 19:33:17 MobiusL has joined
 824 2011-12-06 19:33:23 <jrmithdobbs> and cogent effectively dropped off the internet for like 30-90 minutes
 825 2011-12-06 19:33:25 <jrmithdobbs> that was fun
 826 2011-12-06 19:33:41 <BlueMatt> yea its been a while, but they did that too often for me to ever trust them again...
 827 2011-12-06 19:33:51 <jrmithdobbs> it's not happened in a long time now
 828 2011-12-06 19:33:54 <jrmithdobbs> they got their shit together
 829 2011-12-06 19:34:25 <BlueMatt> now, but Id still rather not trust them...
 830 2011-12-06 19:34:50 <jrmithdobbs> at $3-5/Mbit though ...
 831 2011-12-06 19:35:01 <jrmithdobbs> with overage rates that == commit rates?
 832 2011-12-06 19:35:04 <jrmithdobbs> you can't beat that shit
 833 2011-12-06 19:35:06 <BlueMatt> yep, but they are cheap because they do stupid shit to stay cheap...
 834 2011-12-06 19:35:33 <jrmithdobbs> so long as there's a secondary link, don't care ;p
 835 2011-12-06 19:35:42 <BlueMatt> true
 836 2011-12-06 19:35:55 <cjdelisle> those are prices that normal people can get? I thought that was only available to people who were buying 10Gb links.
 837 2011-12-06 19:35:56 <BlueMatt> never use them as the only provider
 838 2011-12-06 19:36:13 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: those prices start around the 150-200Mbit commit range
 839 2011-12-06 19:36:19 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: not nearly as much as you'd think.
 840 2011-12-06 19:36:25 <cjdelisle> hmm
 841 2011-12-06 19:36:55 <cjdelisle> you know anything about the point to point ip/eth market?
 842 2011-12-06 19:36:56 <jrmithdobbs> the trick is being near a POP ;p
 843 2011-12-06 19:37:02 <BlueMatt> well you do have to get the connection to them...
 844 2011-12-06 19:37:13 <cjdelisle> /nod
 845 2011-12-06 19:37:17 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: that's all very regional dependent
 846 2011-12-06 19:37:19 <BlueMatt> bw only works if you have a cable ;)
 847 2011-12-06 19:37:51 <cjdelisle> I understand point to point is much cheaper than internet access
 848 2011-12-06 19:37:53 <jrmithdobbs> every place i've ever dealt with cogent they already had pops in the building or across the parking lot, heh
 849 2011-12-06 19:38:01 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: depends.
 850 2011-12-06 19:38:26 <rjk2> we are paying $70/mb for a 15 mbps commit :(
 851 2011-12-06 19:38:30 <rjk2> ohio sucks
 852 2011-12-06 19:38:32 <cjdelisle> heh if it's not then might aswell just vpn for the added flexibility
 853 2011-12-06 19:38:38 <gmaxwell> ...
 854 2011-12-06 19:38:43 <gmaxwell> Your price shopping sucks.
 855 2011-12-06 19:38:49 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: "you mean I'm paying 2k installation fee for you to drop me these two fibre cables through the wall?!" "yup" "bitches"
 856 2011-12-06 19:38:53 <gmaxwell> oh only 15. ... well perhaps okay.
 857 2011-12-06 19:38:53 <rjk2> well i mean to our building, not in a DC
 858 2011-12-06 19:38:58 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yep
 859 2011-12-06 19:39:25 <BlueMatt> installation fees are always a fucking ripoff
 860 2011-12-06 19:39:35 <rjk2> but i did get free install :)
 861 2011-12-06 19:39:45 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: they didn't even send someone downstairs to catch the other end, we had to fish it out, lol
 862 2011-12-06 19:39:46 <BlueMatt> well thats a plus
 863 2011-12-06 19:39:48 <jrmithdobbs> fuckers
 864 2011-12-06 19:40:08 <BlueMatt> hah, ok well that has to be the best installation story Ive ever heard...
 865 2011-12-06 19:40:13 <jrmithdobbs> (speaking of cost cutting measures)
 866 2011-12-06 19:40:30 <BlueMatt> drill a hole, feed a cable, charge 2k
 867 2011-12-06 19:40:47 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it wasn't that bad, their suite was literally directly above ours is why they did that, ha
 868 2011-12-06 19:40:52 <rjk2> but the cable is expensive !?!?!!!!one1!
 869 2011-12-06 19:40:56 <jrmithdobbs> and the building was built out so they could do shit like that
 870 2011-12-06 19:41:00 <jrmithdobbs> so no drilling/etc
 871 2011-12-06 19:41:00 <BlueMatt> still 2k is...kinda fucked up
 872 2011-12-06 19:41:15 <BlueMatt> ha, all they did was feed a cable and charge 2k?
 873 2011-12-06 19:41:22 <jrmithdobbs> meh, we talked them down to $3/mbit what do we care
 874 2011-12-06 19:41:25 <rjk2> did that include the endpoint box
 875 2011-12-06 19:41:29 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 876 2011-12-06 19:41:32 <BlueMatt> well fair enough
 877 2011-12-06 19:41:39 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: no it went into our 6500
 878 2011-12-06 19:41:39 <jrmithdobbs> haha
 879 2011-12-06 19:41:45 <rjk2> damn
 880 2011-12-06 19:43:30 <luke-jr> so any word from sipa about gmaxwell/[tycho]'s rebellion from his version number spec? :P
 881 2011-12-06 19:43:53 <[Tycho]> :)
 882 2011-12-06 19:43:57 <jrmithdobbs> say what
 883 2011-12-06 19:44:22 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: we like version-2 addresses to start with "2" character.
 884 2011-12-06 19:44:24 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: basically they want to use version 3 instead of version 2
 885 2011-12-06 19:44:39 <luke-jr> because version 3 makes all addresses start with the '2' char
 886 2011-12-06 19:45:11 <luke-jr> whereas version 2 addresses can start with any of 13 different characters
 887 2011-12-06 19:45:45 * luke-jr ponders what v2 testnet starts with
 888 2011-12-06 19:46:02 <jrmithdobbs> why not just stop encoding version number and make it a literal ascii value?
 889 2011-12-06 19:47:00 <jrmithdobbs> cause what do you have to go to after version 3 to keep a static number while encoded?
 890 2011-12-06 19:47:01 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: because that's not feasable, and doesn't solve anything
 891 2011-12-06 19:47:10 caedes_ has joined
 892 2011-12-06 19:47:17 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: versions 5 and 6 both begin with '3' always
 893 2011-12-06 19:47:24 <jrmithdobbs> why isn't it feasible i can think of what has to change in the code off the top of my head and it's trivial
 894 2011-12-06 19:47:26 <luke-jr> version 8 always begins with '4'
 895 2011-12-06 19:47:37 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: no, it isn't.
 896 2011-12-06 19:47:40 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: TIAS
 897 2011-12-06 19:47:47 <jrmithdobbs> TIAS?
 898 2011-12-06 19:47:53 <luke-jr> try it and see (for yourself)
 899 2011-12-06 19:48:06 <luke-jr> in any case, every single base58 char has at least one version that corresponds to it
 900 2011-12-06 19:48:18 <luke-jr> versions 91-ff also always begin with '2'
 901 2011-12-06 19:48:55 <luke-jr> which makes me inclined to reserve '2'-starting addresses for testnets
 902 2011-12-06 19:49:33 <luke-jr> since there's 112 versions that begin with it always
 903 2011-12-06 19:49:57 <luke-jr> whereas other base58 chars have only 1-2 versions unique to them
 904 2011-12-06 19:50:29 <luke-jr> if we use version 0x19, we can do 'B' ;)
 905 2011-12-06 19:54:17 RazielZ has joined
 906 2011-12-06 19:54:20 <BlueMatt> we already have a standard, its simple enough (ok, not the simplest possible, but meh) so why change it?
 907 2011-12-06 19:54:44 <BlueMatt> also, everyone pretty much agreed when sipa proposed it, why change it now?
 908 2011-12-06 19:55:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: because it's extremely user unfriendly?
 909 2011-12-06 19:55:26 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 910 2011-12-06 19:55:35 <BlueMatt> and why wasnt this brought up the first time around?
 911 2011-12-06 19:55:42 <luke-jr> dunno
 912 2011-12-06 19:55:48 <luke-jr> at least I pretty much ignored it
 913 2011-12-06 19:56:09 <BlueMatt> is gmaxwell or [Tycho] around?
 914 2011-12-06 19:56:25 <[Tycho]> Yes.
 915 2011-12-06 19:58:11 lianj has joined
 916 2011-12-06 19:58:11 lianj has quit (Changing host)
 917 2011-12-06 19:58:11 lianj has joined
 918 2011-12-06 20:00:43 erle- has joined
 919 2011-12-06 20:05:39 <gmaxwell> Yes, [Tycho] is around.
 920 2011-12-06 20:05:48 <copumpkin> lol
 921 2011-12-06 20:06:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: addresses starting with consistent characters is important for usability. I respect the work sipa did, but he missed a criteria.
 922 2011-12-06 20:06:33 lyspooner has joined
 923 2011-12-06 20:06:44 <BlueMatt> mmm, well I was assuming sipa was around and I was gonna ask him (hes not away...)
 924 2011-12-06 20:06:52 <gmaxwell> sipa would point out that joe users shouldn't be using addresses.. we should have payment procotols and whatnot, but we don't. soo..
 925 2011-12-06 20:06:52 <BlueMatt> but he appears to be mia...
 926 2011-12-06 20:06:59 storrgie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 927 2011-12-06 20:07:22 <gmaxwell> yea, it's a conversation to have with sipa around.
 928 2011-12-06 20:07:22 * BlueMatt thinks payment protocols will never take off bitcoin: URIs will be the most commonly used one (Id bet)
 929 2011-12-06 20:07:44 <BlueMatt> (well as soon as I get a chance to fix the outstanding issues on the URI support in bitcoin-qt pull...)
 930 2011-12-06 20:07:59 <luke-jr> bitcoin: URIs are still payment protocols :P
 931 2011-12-06 20:08:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you don't *want* to fix the outstanding issues :P
 932 2011-12-06 20:08:13 <BlueMatt> but they have user-facing addresses
 933 2011-12-06 20:08:23 <luke-jr> no, they don't really.
 934 2011-12-06 20:08:29 <BlueMatt> well mostly
 935 2011-12-06 20:08:31 <luke-jr> URIs are not user-facing
 936 2011-12-06 20:08:40 <BlueMatt> but the popup with the address and amount is
 937 2011-12-06 20:08:54 <BlueMatt> and not showing that popup would be ridiculous
 938 2011-12-06 20:09:13 <luke-jr> true
 939 2011-12-06 20:09:28 <[Tycho]> URIs are nice. But knowing what address you are looking at is even better (before even entering it in some software form)
 940 2011-12-06 20:09:28 <luke-jr> there's really no *good* way to hide addresses, is there? :/
 941 2011-12-06 20:09:35 <luke-jr> … besides possibly Namecoin
 942 2011-12-06 20:09:53 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I think the biggest objection is specific to versions 1 and 2
 943 2011-12-06 20:10:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: version 1 addresses can begin with any of these: QRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijkmno
 944 2011-12-06 20:10:22 <luke-jr> and version 2 can begin with any of: 2opqrstuvwxyz
 945 2011-12-06 20:10:40 <luke-jr> every other version only has 1 or 2 beginning characters
 946 2011-12-06 20:10:42 <[Tycho]> Also we may just skip this version and start right with next one :) That will give us more time to decide :)
 947 2011-12-06 20:10:46 <gmaxwell> A real payment protocol solves lots of other things like negoiating the amounts... but yea, we're not getting that now.
 948 2011-12-06 20:11:33 * BlueMatt doesnt see that happening, though additions to uri spec like dont pay fee or -addnode=ip before sending seem reasonable
 949 2011-12-06 20:11:46 <BlueMatt> (to better support merchant's with fee contracts)
 950 2011-12-06 20:11:49 <luke-jr> and signmessage
 951 2011-12-06 20:12:25 <[Tycho]> What fee contracts ?
 952 2011-12-06 20:12:47 <BlueMatt> signmessage is part of a larger payment system, and if you are gonna include it in uri, then its broken unless you have a way to send the signed message back in the protocol
 953 2011-12-06 20:12:54 <BlueMatt> ie you need a full payment protocol at that point
 954 2011-12-06 20:13:00 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: eg mtgox's one with eligius
 955 2011-12-06 20:13:04 <BlueMatt> where mtgox pays no fee...ever
 956 2011-12-06 20:13:09 <helo> i was just about to ask about signmessage content in the bitcoin uri...
 957 2011-12-06 20:13:36 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
 958 2011-12-06 20:13:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Not necessarily. "Click here, then paste your payment confirmation in this box: ________"
 959 2011-12-06 20:14:08 <gmaxwell> the payment confirmation could include the seralized transaction plus any signmessage stuff.
 960 2011-12-06 20:14:21 <gmaxwell> then you also avoid a bunch of propagation annoyances.
 961 2011-12-06 20:14:26 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: the signmessage alone should be sufficient.
 962 2011-12-06 20:14:37 <gmaxwell> Lots of people seem to start bitcoin.. pay.. turn it off.  and the txn doesn't propagate.
 963 2011-12-06 20:14:50 <gmaxwell> then they're bitching that their coins are lost and blah blah.
 964 2011-12-06 20:14:54 <luke-jr> well, that's what BlueMatt's "addnode" thing would be for
 965 2011-12-06 20:15:03 <gmaxwell> (until they have enough patience to leave it on)
 966 2011-12-06 20:15:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: true, but that is worse than forcing merchants to use unique addresses (which they should be doing, well ok maybe if the client was better) or sending that data back in the protocol
 967 2011-12-06 20:15:15 <gmaxwell> but if you're going to connect to the vendor you might as well have a payment protocol.
 968 2011-12-06 20:15:17 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: that doesn't make sure they're current on the chain etc
 969 2011-12-06 20:15:26 <helo> in a mobile environment, i was imagining the bitcoin app signing the message and then offering it up as a "signmessage:" URI, so the user at that point would select an app that can handle sending the sendmessage data
 970 2011-12-06 20:15:36 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: they don't need to be.
 971 2011-12-06 20:15:43 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: nor does it matter
 972 2011-12-06 20:15:55 <gmaxwell> but they do need to stay connected long enough and have working peers.
 973 2011-12-06 20:16:17 <luke-jr> the catch-22 with the signmessage, is that the message content *should* include the txid
 974 2011-12-06 20:16:58 <luke-jr> so IMO, we need to define that all payment confirmation messages always begin with "txid:" or smth like that
 975 2011-12-06 20:17:17 <gmaxwell> I don't think it does.. it could just include any nonce, couldn't it?
 976 2011-12-06 20:17:20 <BlueMatt> ...or just be a signmessage of the txid...
 977 2011-12-06 20:17:24 <luke-jr> so the merchant doesn't need to do two steps, and e-Wallets can securely sign confirmations
 978 2011-12-06 20:17:42 <gmaxwell> hm I guess not.
 979 2011-12-06 20:17:52 <BlueMatt> though I would still argue against signmessage support as it forces merchants to do things "the right way"
 980 2011-12-06 20:17:52 <gmaxwell> so sure, just make it a signmessage of the txid.
 981 2011-12-06 20:17:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that would be worse
 982 2011-12-06 20:18:07 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: meh, similar enough
 983 2011-12-06 20:18:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's a GOOD thing
 984 2011-12-06 20:18:26 <gmaxwell> or TXID plus a sender provided ID.
 985 2011-12-06 20:18:28 <luke-jr> the message SHOULD be forced to include a description of the payment too
 986 2011-12-06 20:18:41 <gmaxwell> thats a lot to pack in a URI.
 987 2011-12-06 20:18:48 <luke-jr> the mechant should provide "1 year subscription: first month's payment" for example
 988 2011-12-06 20:18:51 <gmaxwell> .. starting to sound more like a payment protocol.
 989 2011-12-06 20:18:53 iocor has joined
 990 2011-12-06 20:18:56 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: true
 991 2011-12-06 20:19:05 <luke-jr> can we sanely POST to a bitcoin: URI?
 992 2011-12-06 20:19:08 <BlueMatt> or just dont include signmessage in the uri support, and then we force merchants to do it right to begin with (instead of relying on signmessage)
 993 2011-12-06 20:19:17 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: what?
 994 2011-12-06 20:19:17 <luke-jr> and the return value can include the txn itself, and sig
 995 2011-12-06 20:19:30 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: signmessage *is* the right way.
 996 2011-12-06 20:19:36 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: since when?
 997 2011-12-06 20:19:44 graingert has left ()
 998 2011-12-06 20:19:45 <gmaxwell> one shot addresses are the right way, weally.
 999 2011-12-06 20:19:46 <BlueMatt> unique addresses is the right way, always has been
1000 2011-12-06 20:19:49 <gmaxwell> er really.
1001 2011-12-06 20:20:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, unique addresses is a hack to workaround the lack of signmessage
1002 2011-12-06 20:20:15 <gmaxwell> No sir!
1003 2011-12-06 20:20:19 <gmaxwell> go read bitcoin.pdf again.
1004 2011-12-06 20:20:20 <BlueMatt> I dont think anyone agrees with you on that one luke
1005 2011-12-06 20:20:23 <jrmithdobbs> how is it a hack
1006 2011-12-06 20:20:34 <gmaxwell> Reusing addresses craps all over the _only_ source of casual privacy we have.
1007 2011-12-06 20:20:37 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I do.
1008 2011-12-06 20:20:49 <BlueMatt> dont think that counts...
1009 2011-12-06 20:21:04 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: privacy is overrated.
1010 2011-12-06 20:21:11 * BlueMatt facepalm
1011 2011-12-06 20:21:11 <gmaxwell> I'm no fan of "zomg anonymity" as a part of bitcoin, but without hiding the ownership of addresses your nosey neighbors can easily snoop on every transaction.
1012 2011-12-06 20:21:27 <luke-jr> fine, so encourage unique addresses whenever possible
1013 2011-12-06 20:21:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Tell me this when DCF decides it doesn't like the food or school books you're buying for your kids.
1014 2011-12-06 20:21:33 <luke-jr> but often, it ISN'T possible
1015 2011-12-06 20:21:41 <gmaxwell> We should make it possible then.
1016 2011-12-06 20:21:53 <jrmithdobbs> how is it not possible
1017 2011-12-06 20:21:55 <BlueMatt> when isnt it?
1018 2011-12-06 20:22:00 <jrmithdobbs> worked every time i tried
1019 2011-12-06 20:22:04 <gmaxwell> It can be possible except for broadcast tipjar addresses.. and even thoughs could be replaced with payment URIs that hand out addresses.
1020 2011-12-06 20:22:10 storrgie has joined
1021 2011-12-06 20:22:20 <helo> an android app that uses bitcoin for purchases could offer a bitcoin: URI to make payment, and offer a handler for a "signmessage:" URI that would be generated by the bitcoin app
1022 2011-12-06 20:22:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: putting a running wallet on an ecommerce site is a terrible idea.
1023 2011-12-06 20:22:30 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: good luck making billboards support unique addresses per person.
1024 2011-12-06 20:22:38 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's like a big hack me sign. And small VPSes can't even run bitcoin.
1025 2011-12-06 20:22:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: when did I say you had to put a running wallet on an ecommerce site?
1026 2011-12-06 20:23:00 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: good luck getting anyone to type an address from a billboard. .. and if you're going to use a QRcode you can use a proper payment protocol uri.
1027 2011-12-06 20:23:03 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1028 2011-12-06 20:23:05 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but putting pre-genned addresses is fine
1029 2011-12-06 20:23:14 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: QR Codes
1030 2011-12-06 20:23:18 <helo> using bitcoin at all is probably a big "hack me" sign, as nobody on the outside will be able to know if the addresses are pre-generated or not
1031 2011-12-06 20:23:24 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: there are plenty of ways to make it work fine that don't involve signmessage and reusing addresses
1032 2011-12-06 20:23:44 <helo> using the same address is a good sign that one definitely isn't running a wallet
1033 2011-12-06 20:23:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: bitcoin-payment://my.payment.server:443/feed_the_kids/1.0btc
1034 2011-12-06 20:24:01 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: and how do you stop MITM?
1035 2011-12-06 20:24:06 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: trust your SSL CA?
1036 2011-12-06 20:24:10 <BlueMatt> there is a disconnect here, I dont see how you are posting a public address and expecting to identify your users (as that is why signmessage exists)
1037 2011-12-06 20:24:22 <BlueMatt> if you are identifying users, then custom addresses is doable
1038 2011-12-06 20:24:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: bitcoin-payment://my.payment.server:443/fuckinghexfingerprintsignatures/feed_the_kids/1.0btc
1039 2011-12-06 20:24:38 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: …
1040 2011-12-06 20:24:39 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: exactly
1041 2011-12-06 20:25:01 <gmaxwell> helo: thats not the point— if you pregen and they hack you— they don't steal any of your money.
1042 2011-12-06 20:25:13 <gmaxwell> helo: if you run a wallet and they hack you, they get all the funds connected to keys in it.
1043 2011-12-06 20:25:39 <gmaxwell> Pregen is the right thing to do, but then idiots will drain your pool and require manual intervention. kinda ugly.
1044 2011-12-06 20:25:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: when did anyone recommend you put a running wallet on an ecommerce site?
1045 2011-12-06 20:25:51 <helo> so you'll still be targeted, it just won't be fruitful beyond them being able to inject their addresses :)
1046 2011-12-06 20:26:06 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: lots of people do it, haven't you noticed people coming in whining about running bitcoin on 256mb VPSes? :)
1047 2011-12-06 20:26:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: there are cryptographic ways to generate on the fly w/o full privkey
1048 2011-12-06 20:26:17 <jrmithdobbs> helo: it's enough to take it from an automated to targeted attack model
1049 2011-12-06 20:26:22 <BlueMatt> (someone needs to get on implementing those...)
1050 2011-12-06 20:26:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: gee, what kind of smart guy would think of that! oh yea, me https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
1051 2011-12-06 20:27:05 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hey, I never said it wasnt you
1052 2011-12-06 20:27:07 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: but we haven't implemented it for anyone yet... which is what I meant by "it should be made possible"
1053 2011-12-06 20:27:12 <gmaxwell> :)
1054 2011-12-06 20:27:19 <BlueMatt> ah, didnt see that line
1055 2011-12-06 20:27:47 <gmaxwell> well I have a dumb implementation... but I don't know how best to handle integration.
1056 2011-12-06 20:27:51 TD has joined
1057 2011-12-06 20:27:59 <BlueMatt> anyway, we agree and so far I dont see anyone agreeing that signmessage should be in uri
1058 2011-12-06 20:28:17 <BlueMatt> TD I blame you for google suddenly thinking I live in france
1059 2011-12-06 20:28:25 <jrmithdobbs> i think signmessage is fundamentally flawed period. trying to use a temporary id a proof of identity is stupid.
1060 2011-12-06 20:28:26 <gmaxwell> yea, luke-jr did you get what I was saying about fuckinghexfingerprintsignatures ? does that close your attack?
1061 2011-12-06 20:28:33 <jrmithdobbs> s/id a/id as/
1062 2011-12-06 20:28:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it's basically replacing Bitcoin address with a SSL key.
1063 2011-12-06 20:29:11 <TD> BlueMatt: sorry dude :)
1064 2011-12-06 20:29:14 <TD> send me a mail with the details
1065 2011-12-06 20:29:31 <BlueMatt> TD: I blame you whenever google does something I dont like though...
1066 2011-12-06 20:29:36 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: kinda, but it lets the two parties negoiate things privately. This means they can do things like use a one shot address that appears in the chain.
1067 2011-12-06 20:29:37 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: so it now provides the same funtionality as signmessage, but requires a direct connection to the recipient.
1068 2011-12-06 20:29:41 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it decided my AP was in singapore for a while last year for some reason
1069 2011-12-06 20:29:49 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: they can do that with URIs too
1070 2011-12-06 20:29:57 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i have photos of my dog on my porch with exif data that says it's in singapore, lol
1071 2011-12-06 20:30:02 <BlueMatt> well I can see how they decided my vps which is owned by a french company (despite being in the us) is in france...
1072 2011-12-06 20:30:05 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: not with a billboard.
1073 2011-12-06 20:30:20 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: actually, yes, with a billboard :P
1074 2011-12-06 20:30:33 <luke-jr> well
1075 2011-12-06 20:30:37 <BlueMatt> I just find it odd they they would go back and reverse what had previously been right when every other ip->loc db Ive seen has it right...
1076 2011-12-06 20:30:38 <luke-jr> to a degree ☺
1077 2011-12-06 20:30:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: if you sign the SSL key with the address on the billboard… you can do everything else
1078 2011-12-06 20:31:13 <luke-jr> or let that be the first step of negotiation
1079 2011-12-06 20:31:35 <BlueMatt> TD: if you feel inspired forwarding 173.246.101.161 to some google ip->loc db department would be appreciated ;)
1080 2011-12-06 20:31:40 <BlueMatt> but I was joking...
1081 2011-12-06 20:31:54 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you don't even need to tie it that tightly. When you connect you send a random value, the other side adds an extra random value, sends you the whole message and the signature.
1082 2011-12-06 20:32:04 <gmaxwell> Then you don't need to worry about integrating with SSL.
1083 2011-12-06 20:32:07 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: sure
1084 2011-12-06 20:32:12 <luke-jr> well
1085 2011-12-06 20:32:19 <luke-jr> you still need SSL for end-to-end crypto
1086 2011-12-06 20:32:23 <luke-jr> otherwise you can be MITM'd
1087 2011-12-06 20:33:08 <jrmithdobbs> so in order to make a payment securely on the internet you would need to use a protocol designed to make payments securely on the internet?
1088 2011-12-06 20:33:10 <rjk2> lol, assuming you can trust SSL
1089 2011-12-06 20:33:11 <jrmithdobbs> why i never
1090 2011-12-06 20:33:19 <gmaxwell> hm. I guess you actually do need to bind the SSL.. otherwise someone can mitm the ssl but pass through the coin traffic. alas.
1091 2011-12-06 20:33:30 <gmaxwell> rjk2: thats hat he's solving there.
1092 2011-12-06 20:34:06 <rjk2> my preferred SSL solution for proving an identity is having the pubkey of the cert stored in the namecoin blockchain ;)
1093 2011-12-06 20:34:12 <gmaxwell> I wonder if there is some function available from fastcgi to get a unique session ID from the ssl session that a mitm couldn't keep constant.
1094 2011-12-06 20:34:35 <BlueMatt> TD: btw I never said congrats on shipping 0.3, so congrats
1095 2011-12-06 20:34:38 <jrmithdobbs> it's in one of the SSL* vars
1096 2011-12-06 20:34:43 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you'd need to sign the SSL key fingerprint
1097 2011-12-06 20:34:52 <gmaxwell> that works. okay.
1098 2011-12-06 20:37:17 localhost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1099 2011-12-06 20:40:11 <TD> BlueMatt: thanks :)
1100 2011-12-06 20:40:21 <BlueMatt> heh, remote host closed the connection to localhost
1101 2011-12-06 20:40:51 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah the ipgeo team is in zurich
1102 2011-12-06 20:40:53 localhost has joined
1103 2011-12-06 20:41:18 <TD> BlueMatt: sorry could you mail me the ip/details to hearn@google.com
1104 2011-12-06 20:41:35 <BlueMatt> TD: oh, ok well I was joking but thanks Ill mail it
1105 2011-12-06 20:43:32 <justmoon> TD: Have a second to share some wisdom on NFC/smart cards?
1106 2011-12-06 20:44:18 <justmoon> you wrote they are 95% proprietary, but I thought NFC was supposed to be a standard (which supports like the four of five most popular physical standards)
1107 2011-12-06 20:44:35 <justmoon> four or* five
1108 2011-12-06 20:46:38 <lianj> !seen theymos
1109 2011-12-06 20:46:38 <gribble> theymos was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 18 hours, 35 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <theymos> I don't see you on IRC very often, ByteCoin.
1110 2011-12-06 20:46:40 <spaola> theymos (~theymos@unaffiliated/theymos) was last seen quitting from #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 16 hours, 2 minutes ago stating (Remote host closed the connection).
1111 2011-12-06 20:47:24 <lianj> !botfight
1112 2011-12-06 20:47:25 <gribble> Error: "botfight" is not a valid command.
1113 2011-12-06 20:47:26 Kolky has joined
1114 2011-12-06 20:47:42 <rjk2> !suicide
1115 2011-12-06 20:47:42 <gribble> no, you!
1116 2011-12-06 20:47:59 <BlueMatt> thats terrible
1117 2011-12-06 20:48:17 <BlueMatt> why would gribble tell people to kill themselves?
1118 2011-12-06 20:48:20 <rjk2> !cheer blueMatt
1119 2011-12-06 20:48:21 * gribble calls out three cheers for blueMatt
1120 2011-12-06 20:49:24 <lianj> any clue why http://blockexplorer.com/tx/3a5769fb2126d870aded5fcaced3bc49fa9768436101895931adb5246e41e957 and http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/3a5769fb2126d870aded5fcaced3bc49fa9768436101895931adb5246e41e957 show different prev_out hashes?
1121 2011-12-06 20:50:10 <justmoon> lianj: are you sure they are different? or just different order...
1122 2011-12-06 20:50:18 <BlueMatt> looks like order to me
1123 2011-12-06 20:51:18 * luke-jr has written up a revised version spec proposal, taking aesthetics into account…
1124 2011-12-06 20:51:40 <BlueMatt> post it on the mailing list
1125 2011-12-06 20:51:44 <luke-jr> yeah, I will
1126 2011-12-06 20:51:45 <lianj> BlueMatt: justmoon: oh, youre right. its just ordered differently
1127 2011-12-06 20:51:49 <lianj> thanks!
1128 2011-12-06 20:52:08 <justmoon> I wonder which order is the correct one though
1129 2011-12-06 20:52:22 <BlueMatt> my bets on raw, but who knows
1130 2011-12-06 20:52:59 <lianj> my lib generates the same raw json format, and its ordered the same too
1131 2011-12-06 20:53:14 <justmoon> looks like BlueMatt just won his bet
1132 2011-12-06 20:53:26 maqr has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1133 2011-12-06 20:53:29 <BlueMatt> yay, you all owe me a btc now
1134 2011-12-06 20:54:02 <lianj> from testnet?
1135 2011-12-06 20:54:11 <BlueMatt> heh
1136 2011-12-06 21:00:35 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: does it use tonal?
1137 2011-12-06 21:02:06 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: no
1138 2011-12-06 21:02:32 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: while I was using tonal for versions to make it easier to work with, I am translating back to decimal for the spec
1139 2011-12-06 21:02:57 <gmaxwell> See. I always say you're a pratical guy.
1140 2011-12-06 21:03:31 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1141 2011-12-06 21:04:55 eueueue has joined
1142 2011-12-06 21:10:23 wasabi2 has joined
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1144 2011-12-06 21:15:39 iocor has joined
1145 2011-12-06 21:16:26 <luke-jr> hmm
1146 2011-12-06 21:16:32 <luke-jr> I hope we never need to export raw public keysw
1147 2011-12-06 21:16:53 <luke-jr> Bitcoin raw public keys collide with testnet stuff under my spec <.<
1148 2011-12-06 21:17:25 <luke-jr> maybe I should move that
1149 2011-12-06 21:17:55 <luke-jr> but then again, if we ever want to add another first-class payment data type, we don't want THAT to collide either
1150 2011-12-06 21:19:04 <luke-jr> actually, crap
1151 2011-12-06 21:28:27 eueueue has quit (Quit: Saindo)
1152 2011-12-06 21:29:33 <luke-jr> there, revised it slightly
1153 2011-12-06 21:38:51 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1154 2011-12-06 21:43:16 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1155 2011-12-06 21:49:38 ThomasV has joined
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1157 2011-12-06 21:54:45 <jeremias> would someone please generate a testnet block :P
1158 2011-12-06 21:57:47 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1159 2011-12-06 21:59:22 Nicksasa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1160 2011-12-06 22:00:14 Happy0 has joined
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1163 2011-12-06 22:02:46 iocor has joined
1164 2011-12-06 22:04:38 <gmaxwell> jeremias: I'll generate as many as you like at the current testnet diff for 0.01 btc/block. Minimum order six blocks.
1165 2011-12-06 22:05:04 <gmaxwell> (it's kinda pricy, but I'd have to change a bunch of config to swing hashpower into it)
1166 2011-12-06 22:05:26 <gmaxwell> perhaps I should setup a webpage so people can buy testnet mining from me. :)
1167 2011-12-06 22:06:16 <jeremias> well, automating that kind of service could be easy
1168 2011-12-06 22:06:25 <gmaxwell> yea...
1169 2011-12-06 22:06:42 <jeremias> but i can order 6 blocks
1170 2011-12-06 22:06:47 <jeremias> 0.06BTC :D
1171 2011-12-06 22:06:48 <gmaxwell> It's something a big pps pool should do.
1172 2011-12-06 22:06:52 <jeremias> i only need one though
1173 2011-12-06 22:10:37 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.24/20111103063747])
1174 2011-12-06 22:11:00 <jeremias> the actual need is that developers who develop bitcoin apps need to test confirmations from blocks
1175 2011-12-06 22:11:06 <gmaxwell> jeremias: okay, I'm syncing up testnet.. I'll let you know when I'm ready. If it hasn't been mined by someone else by then, then I'll do so and we can bank your credit of blocks for more testing later. :)
1176 2011-12-06 22:11:23 <jeremias> I'm not a miner myself, I just need those blocks now and then to see if confirmation works
1177 2011-12-06 22:11:24 <gmaxwell> jeremias: some changes should be made to testnet in the net version to make things easier.
1178 2011-12-06 22:11:39 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1179 2011-12-06 22:11:52 <jeremias> so I would be willing to pay some little sum to someone to generate N testnet blocks
1180 2011-12-06 22:13:25 <denisx> Iam generating
1181 2011-12-06 22:13:55 <gmaxwell> it's cheap enough to generate testnet blocks that there really should just be a button for it.
1182 2011-12-06 22:14:44 <jeremias> well, i don't know anything about mining... is it possible to mine testnet blocks with cpu only?
1183 2011-12-06 22:14:50 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1184 2011-12-06 22:14:50 <jeremias> in moderate time
1185 2011-12-06 22:15:03 <gmaxwell> jeremias: sure, it'll just take .. er.. 16 core-hours or so?
1186 2011-12-06 22:15:09 <jeremias> :D
1187 2011-12-06 22:15:12 <jeremias> ok too much
1188 2011-12-06 22:16:21 traviscj has joined
1189 2011-12-06 22:16:40 <_Fireball> night
1190 2011-12-06 22:16:49 _Fireball has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!)
1191 2011-12-06 22:19:15 jacobwg has joined
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1194 2011-12-06 22:20:25 <denisx> found two blocks
1195 2011-12-06 22:20:28 <denisx> happy?
1196 2011-12-06 22:20:42 <gmaxwell> \0/
1197 2011-12-06 22:22:40 <BlueMatt> best story Ive heard all day: http://gizmodo.com/5865349/how-to-legally-rob-a-bank
1198 2011-12-06 22:25:54 <jeremias> denisx: don't see anything on blockexplorer...
1199 2011-12-06 22:26:02 <jeremias> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet
1200 2011-12-06 22:26:06 darkee has joined
1201 2011-12-06 22:26:07 iocor has joined
1202 2011-12-06 22:30:02 <denisx> strnge
1203 2011-12-06 22:30:06 <denisx> strange
1204 2011-12-06 22:33:25 storrgie has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1205 2011-12-06 22:35:44 <denisx> ok, wrong bitcoind, now it should work
1206 2011-12-06 22:36:19 slush has joined
1207 2011-12-06 22:37:44 abragin has quit ()
1208 2011-12-06 22:37:57 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1209 2011-12-06 22:38:36 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1210 2011-12-06 22:40:38 <denisx> there you go
1211 2011-12-06 22:42:37 <gmaxwell> I see it too.
1212 2011-12-06 22:42:42 <gmaxwell> (I'm finally synced up now—)
1213 2011-12-06 22:44:24 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1214 2011-12-06 22:44:31 <jeremias> fuuu, my transaction wasn't confirmed :(
1215 2011-12-06 22:44:37 <jeremias> but thanks
1216 2011-12-06 22:46:55 <gmaxwell> I just generated another one... perhaps in that one?
1217 2011-12-06 22:47:04 <gmaxwell> heh. it took me 1 seconds. :)
1218 2011-12-06 22:47:52 <gmaxwell> alas, mine confirmed no txn.
1219 2011-12-06 22:47:58 <jeremias> hmm
1220 2011-12-06 22:48:17 <helo> testnet difficulty auto-adjusts in the same number of blocks as realnet?
1221 2011-12-06 22:48:22 <gmaxwell> helo: yes.
1222 2011-12-06 22:48:44 <gmaxwell> I need to figure out how to automate the switch and only switch when there are txn waiting in the memory pool.
1223 2011-12-06 22:48:55 <helo> that's a good idea
1224 2011-12-06 22:50:57 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: care to share your txn approval patch with me so I can use it to sell testnet mining?
1225 2011-12-06 22:51:58 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: do I get a cut? <.<
1226 2011-12-06 22:52:10 <gmaxwell> sure.
1227 2011-12-06 22:52:26 <gmaxwell> Though — I expect it will be a cut of a very small amount. :)
1228 2011-12-06 22:53:02 <luke-jr> :p
1229 2011-12-06 22:53:39 rdponticelli has joined
1230 2011-12-06 22:53:57 <gmaxwell> something like this would be even better for a big pool to do.. I can only do it reasonable so long as the tn difficulty is low enough that a couple gh gets a block fast.
1231 2011-12-06 22:54:50 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not a bad idea, but sounds like a lot of work…
1232 2011-12-06 22:55:00 <luke-jr> switching a big pool like that
1233 2011-12-06 22:55:59 <gmaxwell> basically the same logic you'd use for loadbalancing a pool across multiple bitcoinds.. though you don't do that.
1234 2011-12-06 22:56:46 <gmaxwell> it only makes sense for PPSish pools, since you can simply charge the testnet user more than your pps fees and your miners shouldn't give a crap since they're still getting paid the same.
1235 2011-12-06 22:57:02 <luke-jr> right
1236 2011-12-06 22:58:10 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr rpc_accept_txn * rf5caf12ea274 bitcoind-personal/src/ (main.cpp main.h rpc.cpp): JSON-RPC method: accepttxn <txid> -- accepts transaction without a fee http://tinyurl.com/7322df6
1237 2011-12-06 22:58:14 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr rpc_accept_txn * r4a02b4ca8e9f bitcoind-personal/src/rpc.cpp: Support piggy-backing an accepttxn onto a getwork http://tinyurl.com/8x2bvo4
1238 2011-12-06 22:58:17 <gmaxwell> :)
1239 2011-12-06 22:59:04 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: ah, do you actually accept piggy-backed accepttxn today?
1240 2011-12-06 22:59:21 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: no
1241 2011-12-06 22:59:31 <luke-jr> I never finished the upgrade to 0.4
1242 2011-12-06 22:59:44 <luke-jr> … actually, I might have backported that
1243 2011-12-06 22:59:46 <luke-jr> I don't know
1244 2011-12-06 22:59:47 <luke-jr> >_<
1245 2011-12-06 23:01:56 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1246 2011-12-06 23:02:21 gp5st has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1247 2011-12-06 23:02:58 <jeremias> hmm, i don't understand why my transaction doesn't propagate to the testnet network, I'm using the standard client (0.4.0)
1248 2011-12-06 23:04:13 <gmaxwell> is there anything unusual about the transaction? (e.g. is your client modified?)
1249 2011-12-06 23:04:20 <gmaxwell> is the input its spending confirmed?
1250 2011-12-06 23:05:00 <jeremias> no, my client is not modified
1251 2011-12-06 23:05:13 wboy1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1252 2011-12-06 23:05:23 <jeremias> how can i see the inputs?
1253 2011-12-06 23:05:57 AStove has quit ()
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1255 2011-12-06 23:06:37 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1256 2011-12-06 23:06:50 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: IceChat - Keeping PC's cool since 2000)
1257 2011-12-06 23:07:08 <jeremias> it should be very regular transaction
1258 2011-12-06 23:07:30 <jeremias> and broadcasted from a client with 19 connections
1259 2011-12-06 23:07:58 Beremat has joined
1260 2011-12-06 23:09:55 <gmaxwell> jeremias: I actually don't know how to see the inputs without modifying the client. There is a way to do it via the GUI IIRC.
1261 2011-12-06 23:10:19 theorb has joined
1262 2011-12-06 23:10:50 <jeremias> well i'm on the command line...
1263 2011-12-06 23:10:52 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1264 2011-12-06 23:11:05 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
1265 2011-12-06 23:11:07 <gmaxwell> sure.
1266 2011-12-06 23:11:08 dan__ has quit (Quit: dan__)
1267 2011-12-06 23:11:34 <jeremias> maybe i'll just wait and test it tomorrow, been coding this shit the whole day :D
1268 2011-12-06 23:11:47 <jeremias> thanks for the advice
1269 2011-12-06 23:18:31 <luke-jr> w00t, I got a git hash collision <.<
1270 2011-12-06 23:18:36 <luke-jr> shorthash*
1271 2011-12-06 23:18:51 maclof has joined
1272 2011-12-06 23:18:59 <gmaxwell> yea, duh. people use shorthashes which are far too short.. 32bits? please!
1273 2011-12-06 23:19:16 <luke-jr> :P
1274 2011-12-06 23:19:24 <luke-jr> 'git lol' shows me an extra digit on it
1275 2011-12-06 23:19:42 FellowTraveler has left ()
1276 2011-12-06 23:21:31 <the_batman> !seen phantomcircuit
1277 2011-12-06 23:21:31 <gribble> phantomcircuit was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 days, 15 hours, 20 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <phantomcircuit> echo "single word"|sha256sum
1278 2011-12-06 23:21:31 <spaola> the_batman, phantomcircuit is right here!
1279 2011-12-06 23:21:41 <the_batman> eh
1280 2011-12-06 23:21:43 <the_batman> ?
1281 2011-12-06 23:22:34 <the_batman> spaola your grammar is bot-like
1282 2011-12-06 23:22:37 btc_novice has left ()
1283 2011-12-06 23:23:58 <nanotube> the_batman: you appear to be talking to a bot. would you like help with that? </clippy>
1284 2011-12-06 23:24:12 * the_batman so confused
1285 2011-12-06 23:24:31 <the_batman> oh he is a bot! I see.
1286 2011-12-06 23:24:50 <nanotube> heh
1287 2011-12-06 23:24:50 * the_batman kicks spaola
1288 2011-12-06 23:25:17 osmosis has joined
1289 2011-12-06 23:25:36 <cjdelisle> !ping
1290 2011-12-06 23:25:36 <gribble> pong
1291 2011-12-06 23:25:58 <cjdelisle> heh spaola is quietbot
1292 2011-12-06 23:26:42 <nanotube> !pong
1293 2011-12-06 23:26:42 <gribble> ping
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