1 2011-12-08 00:00:14 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  2 2011-12-08 00:00:38 <gmaxwell> and still interesting wrt bitcoin. it would be neat to show that bitcoin with the hashes replaced with random oracles, and the signature functions replaced with lamport held the expected properties (no one else can spend your coin)
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  7 2011-12-08 00:04:40 <copumpkin> yeah
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  9 2011-12-08 00:05:11 <copumpkin> I think it's an interesting set of problems
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 13 2011-12-08 00:06:20 <copumpkin> it seems like you could do some sort of uniqueness proof
 14 2011-12-08 00:06:37 <copumpkin> saying that you can generate a signature exactly when you have the private key or you have the inverse to the random oracle
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 16 2011-12-08 00:07:50 * nanotube pronounces: copumpkin, wait for an unexpected surprise from an old friend. </random oracle> :)
 17 2011-12-08 00:07:59 <copumpkin> lol
 18 2011-12-08 00:08:41 <copumpkin> a random oracle is a bijective function from naturals to tautological optimistic statements about your prospects
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 21 2011-12-08 00:19:27 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: but what do you owe a a random oracle after it gives its advice?
 22 2011-12-08 00:19:52 <copumpkin> nothing, I got it for free with my orange chicken
 23 2011-12-08 00:23:53 genjix has joined
 24 2011-12-08 00:24:33 <genjix> sipa: hey, i was reading a paper on ec keys and it says that the discriminant for the elliptic curve must not be 0
 25 2011-12-08 00:24:56 <genjix> so if the discriminant is less than 0, that means it has no real roots... why is that ok?
 26 2011-12-08 00:25:05 <genjix> why not define discriminant > 0
 27 2011-12-08 00:28:18 <genjix> oh wait, it's a 3rd order polynomial... so d < 0 => 1 real root, 2 complex ones? still... how is that fine?
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 29 2011-12-08 00:29:34 <copumpkin> we're doing EC over the complex numbers?
 30 2011-12-08 00:32:09 <genjix> im wondering whether the paper is incorrect
 31 2011-12-08 00:32:52 <copumpkin> genjix: I'm not sure what paper it is, but not all fields are even ordered, so saying > 0 doesn't make much sense
 32 2011-12-08 00:33:35 <copumpkin> perhaps I'm being too discrete though
 33 2011-12-08 00:34:35 * gmaxwell groans
 34 2011-12-08 00:34:46 <copumpkin> :)
 35 2011-12-08 00:35:10 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: take some pitty on a man working outside his field.
 36 2011-12-08 00:35:25 <copumpkin> oh, I'm talking out of my ass here
 37 2011-12-08 00:35:28 <ageis> pity
 38 2011-12-08 00:35:35 <copumpkin> I really haven't looked much at elliptic curves beyond the basic definition
 39 2011-12-08 00:36:10 <copumpkin> I'm also a lowly programmer who only got into math fairly recently
 40 2011-12-08 00:36:40 <copumpkin> so take everything I say with a large bowl of salt
 41 2011-12-08 00:37:26 <copumpkin> anyway, I'm gonna go home :P bbiab
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 44 2011-12-08 00:37:59 <gmaxwell> genjix: none of this is over the reals, the calculation is on finite field, and this makes the behavior pretty much entirely different.
 45 2011-12-08 00:39:14 * gmaxwell also afk
 46 2011-12-08 00:41:33 <genjix> but how can ec crypto work if you have P and Q such that they generate a tangent line that intersects the curve at only 2 points
 47 2011-12-08 00:42:05 <genjix> and how about at one point
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 49 2011-12-08 00:43:10 <sipa> genjix: if you're talking about a Zp field, there's no such thing as a negative number
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 54 2011-12-08 00:43:45 <genjix> oh so it's Z+ only
 55 2011-12-08 00:43:48 <genjix> ok
 56 2011-12-08 00:43:51 <sipa> no
 57 2011-12-08 00:43:53 <sipa> it's Zp
 58 2011-12-08 00:44:05 <sipa> and it has p elements
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 60 2011-12-08 00:44:31 <sipa> you may identify them with the whole numbers 0 through n-1
 61 2011-12-08 00:44:43 <sipa> but you might as well identify them with the number -n though -1
 62 2011-12-08 00:45:19 <genjix> ok
 63 2011-12-08 00:45:31 <sipa> the number "1" in Zp is defined as the equivalence class of the elements of Z that are equal to 1 modulo p
 64 2011-12-08 00:45:56 <sipa> so it's really identified with the set of whole numbers {1,p+1,2p+1,1-p,1-2p,...}
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 66 2011-12-08 00:46:57 <genjix> ok thanks
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 68 2011-12-08 00:47:54 <genjix> so the elements for the numbers input to the calculation are over a finite field defined by the group Zp which you described
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 73 2011-12-08 00:50:56 <sipa> yes
 74 2011-12-08 00:51:12 <genjix> thank you :)
 75 2011-12-08 00:51:25 <sipa> the curve is over the points (a,b) from Zp x Zp
 76 2011-12-08 00:52:04 <genjix> right but the multiplication operator is a specially defined one (for i in n: P += P)
 77 2011-12-08 00:52:28 <genjix> sum_n{P}
 78 2011-12-08 00:52:33 <sipa> not really - we're just defining the curve now
 79 2011-12-08 00:52:57 <sipa> once you have the curve, you define a group over the points on the curve
 80 2011-12-08 00:53:27 <genjix> Zp x Zp
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 83 2011-12-08 00:55:10 <genjix> oh there is a normal multiplication operator for real sets. didn't know that (Zp . Zp)
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 85 2011-12-08 00:57:36 <sipa> yeah, that's what the multiplication in y*y = x*x*x + a*x + b stands for
 86 2011-12-08 00:58:10 <genjix> nice
 87 2011-12-08 00:58:13 <sipa> i'm not sure about the formal details, but it may be wrong to say that it's defined for those sets
 88 2011-12-08 00:58:33 <sipa> it's just the multiplication in the field Zp - however you represent the elements of that
 89 2011-12-08 00:58:50 <genjix> right. i get you anyway
 90 2011-12-08 01:00:36 <genjix> given a curve E, point P and Q = dP (d is private key)
 91 2011-12-08 01:00:59 <genjix> what was you saying before adding combining 2 EC keys? i'm trying to properly understand it
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 93 2011-12-08 01:01:37 <sipa> ok
 94 2011-12-08 01:02:10 <sipa> you give me a public key P (with corresponding private key p, with P = p*G)
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 96 2011-12-08 01:02:20 <genjix> btw i was reading a cryptography book and the section on elliptic curve keys uses the example name 'Satomi'
 97 2011-12-08 01:02:25 <genjix> book is from 2001
 98 2011-12-08 01:02:42 <genjix> ok
 99 2011-12-08 01:02:42 <sipa> i generate an ephemeral private key q, with public key Q = q*G
100 2011-12-08 01:03:08 <genjix> ohhhh
101 2011-12-08 01:03:10 <genjix> nice
102 2011-12-08 01:03:17 <sipa> i multiply q with P, and get Z = q*P = q*p*G
103 2011-12-08 01:03:25 <genjix> Q + P = (q + p) * G
104 2011-12-08 01:03:35 <sipa> that too, but that is reversible
105 2011-12-08 01:03:37 <genjix> aha so multiplying is better
106 2011-12-08 01:03:44 <sipa> division however, isn't
107 2011-12-08 01:03:47 <rjk2> guys, mind your p's and q's
108 2011-12-08 01:04:02 <genjix> :))
109 2011-12-08 01:04:21 <genjix> super. ty for explaining
110 2011-12-08 01:04:35 <sipa> now you multiply p with Q, and get p*Q = p*q*G = q*p*G = q*P = Z
111 2011-12-08 01:05:16 <sipa> so you end up with the same key Z (which you can e.g. hash and use as seed for some other crypto primittive)
112 2011-12-08 01:05:25 <genjix> yeah because multiplication is commutative
113 2011-12-08 01:05:28 <sipa> and an attacker who has only seen P and Q cannot infer Z
114 2011-12-08 01:05:42 <sipa> exactly
115 2011-12-08 01:05:43 <genjix> that's nice
116 2011-12-08 01:05:49 <sipa> that's ECDH
117 2011-12-08 01:05:58 <genjix> and you could have many multiple private keys too
118 2011-12-08 01:06:08 <genjix> aha great
119 2011-12-08 01:06:27 <sipa> (ps: all i know about this comes from wikipedia)
120 2011-12-08 01:10:40 <Mqrius> sipa: Q+P is reversible, but you still can't get q from that if you have p, or vice versa
121 2011-12-08 01:11:00 <luke-jr> genjix: both Satomi and Satoshi are fairly common names
122 2011-12-08 01:11:16 <genjix> Q+P is not reversible unless you know either one
123 2011-12-08 01:11:57 <genjix> luke-jr: Pao-Chi, Gwen and Satomi
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126 2011-12-08 01:15:56 <genjix> aha ok i didnt know this before. but to start i find a big prime number and then all my integers are from 0 to p - 1
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140 2011-12-08 01:50:50 <slush1> genjix: hi, did you receive my email?
141 2011-12-08 01:52:10 <genjix> hi slush1, yeah i did. we all like it and we're discussing in my group what to do
142 2011-12-08 01:52:56 <slush1> genjix: great! I just wasn't sure if that email is correct. Feel free to respond anytime, it does not hurry.
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149 2011-12-08 02:12:13 <dhw> Json-RPC did not change with 0.5 did it?
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157 2011-12-08 02:22:03 <luke-jr> dhw: it did slightly, I think
158 2011-12-08 02:22:07 <luke-jr> dhw: a few fixes
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161 2011-12-08 02:27:03 <dhw> is there any reason why a username/password would not log me in?
162 2011-12-08 02:27:10 <dhw> is there a limit on the length for either or
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164 2011-12-08 02:29:25 <luke-jr> dhw: username cannot be null
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166 2011-12-08 02:29:36 <luke-jr> oh wait
167 2011-12-08 02:29:39 <luke-jr> bitcoind you mean
168 2011-12-08 02:29:50 <luke-jr> I don't think THAT changed.
169 2011-12-08 02:29:54 <dhw> hrm
170 2011-12-08 02:30:11 <dhw> must be a bad config
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191 2011-12-08 03:37:59 <lfm_> on the mswin version of bitcoin 0.5.0.1 when I hover over the green check mark i get ast received block was generated %n seconds ago" it doesnt fill in the number
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193 2011-12-08 03:44:34 <lfm_> the linux version seems to work right tho
194 2011-12-08 03:45:16 <lfm_> on the mswin version of bitcoin 0.5.0.1 when I hover over the green check mark i get "Last received block was generated %n seconds ago" it doesnt fill in the number
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201 2011-12-08 04:06:07 <luke-jr> lfm_: what 0.5.0.1?
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213 2011-12-08 05:23:33 <Tril> ;;seen genjix
214 2011-12-08 05:23:34 <gribble> genjix was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 hours, 31 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <genjix> hi slush1, yeah i did. we all like it and we're discussing in my group what to do
215 2011-12-08 05:25:56 <Tril> genjix: was looking at your btfeature project, do you know if anyone has an active site doing something like that?  collecting patch/code ideas and bitcoin donations and paying out?
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265 2011-12-08 06:18:21 <SomeoneWeird> https://www.soldierx.com/CryptographySteganography-Cracking-Contest-2011
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323 2011-12-08 09:39:41 <ExeciN> I am using the official bitcoin client for mac. I went to the options pane and I see the first option: "Start Bitcoin on window system startup"
324 2011-12-08 09:40:48 <ExeciN> it should be windows instead of window and definitely not on a Mac/Linux computer
325 2011-12-08 09:42:08 gjs278 has joined
326 2011-12-08 09:44:47 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
327 2011-12-08 09:44:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 156598 | Current Difficulty: 1090715.6800513 | Next Difficulty At Block: 157247 | Next Difficulty In: 649 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 6 hours, 45 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1176278.80191243 | Estimated Percent Change: 7.84467697916
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331 2011-12-08 09:46:31 <[Tycho]> ExeciN: how did you see the options pane if you don't have window system ?
332 2011-12-08 09:48:09 <ExeciN> Bitcoin-Qt menu then Preferences... menu then I selected the main
333 2011-12-08 09:48:23 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
334 2011-12-08 09:48:31 <[Tycho]> It means that you have some windows system.
335 2011-12-08 09:48:35 <ExeciN> I can confirm that I am using a mac and a mac binary
336 2011-12-08 09:49:15 <ExeciN> no it means that the os detection algorithm it doen't work like it should
337 2011-12-08 09:49:38 <genjix> Tril: no one was
338 2011-12-08 09:50:06 _Fireball has joined
339 2011-12-08 09:50:53 <[Tycho]> ExeciN: I think that your mac has this one - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System
340 2011-12-08 09:51:23 <ExeciN> I am not really a developer (well I study to be one) but I can feedback what you ask in order to fix that
341 2011-12-08 09:52:11 <[Tycho]> I'm running 0.4 on mac and this checkbox is disabled for me :)
342 2011-12-08 09:52:13 <ExeciN> I don't know if bitcoin is make use of X11 but even if it is there should be a way to get the os signature
343 2011-12-08 09:53:01 <ExeciN> I am on OSX Lion (10.7.2)
344 2011-12-08 09:53:04 <[Tycho]> ExeciN: what I'm trying to say is that "Microsoft Windows" is not the only window system out there. Your mac has window system too, just not so microsoft.
345 2011-12-08 09:54:26 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
346 2011-12-08 09:55:36 <ExeciN> I confused Window System with Windows System
347 2011-12-08 09:57:05 iocor has joined
348 2011-12-08 09:57:43 <[Tycho]> As I see, it says "window system" not starting with capital letter :)
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360 2011-12-08 10:32:42 <genjix> in an EC curve (the E part of the pubkey), what does order and cofactor mean?
361 2011-12-08 10:32:48 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
362 2011-12-08 10:33:44 <genjix> i see 2^m field, a, b, order and cofactor
363 2011-12-08 10:36:07 <[Tycho]> What is acceptable integer range for using as private key ?
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368 2011-12-08 11:04:00 <Mqrius> genjix: bitcoin uses an Fp field, not an F2m field...?
369 2011-12-08 11:04:43 <Mqrius> [Tycho]: 1 to Fp, not including Fp
370 2011-12-08 11:05:09 <[Tycho]> What is Fp ?
371 2011-12-08 11:05:35 <Mqrius> It's a parameter of the field bitcoin uses
372 2011-12-08 11:05:46 Guest41956 has joined
373 2011-12-08 11:05:57 <Mqrius> Don't know it by heart ;)
374 2011-12-08 11:07:13 <Mqrius> (Basically, it's the number of pkints in the field)
375 2011-12-08 11:07:55 <[Tycho]> But it's big ? :)
376 2011-12-08 11:08:44 <Mqrius> Yes, quite :p
377 2011-12-08 11:09:37 * [Tycho] is thinking about using files as private keys (for fun)
378 2011-12-08 11:09:54 <[Tycho]> Not sure if real file is better than it's hash, but may be.
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383 2011-12-08 11:12:15 <Mqrius> tycho: FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFE FFFFFC2F
384 2011-12-08 11:13:42 <[Tycho]> Ok, hash then :)
385 2011-12-08 11:14:05 <Mqrius> hash may be better. dependent on the file, you may have a standard header reducing your keyspace
386 2011-12-08 11:14:37 <Mqrius> But you could take the file MOD p
387 2011-12-08 11:15:14 <Mqrius> So it could be done. But hash is better :)
388 2011-12-08 11:15:38 erle- has joined
389 2011-12-08 11:17:18 <[Tycho]> Even more fun would be to use pictures as images.
390 2011-12-08 11:17:31 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
391 2011-12-08 11:17:42 <[Tycho]> Somehow normalized, so recompression wouldn't matter.
392 2011-12-08 11:21:15 MobiusL has joined
393 2011-12-08 11:24:42 <sipa> Mqrius: Fp field indeed
394 2011-12-08 11:25:05 <sipa> genjix: order is the number of points on the curve, basically
395 2011-12-08 11:25:40 <sipa> genjix: cofactor is number of field elements divided by the number of curve elements iirc
396 2011-12-08 11:26:13 <[Tycho]> Hello, sipa.
397 2011-12-08 11:28:14 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
398 2011-12-08 11:28:24 <sipa> hi [Tycho]
399 2011-12-08 11:29:12 <[Tycho]> sipa: so you are against our proposal of human-readable bitcoin address version numbers ? :)
400 2011-12-08 11:32:40 <sipa> [Tycho]: haven't looked at it, really
401 2011-12-08 11:33:21 <sipa> (not yet)
402 2011-12-08 11:42:22 <Mqrius> <[Tycho]> Even more fun would be to use pictures as images.
403 2011-12-08 11:42:36 <Mqrius> Yes, using pictures as images is an awesome time-honored tradition!
404 2011-12-08 11:43:13 sacarlson has joined
405 2011-12-08 11:43:48 <Mqrius> (On a more serious note: For calculating the key, the raw image could be used. Then you could store it as PNG or something for compression, but something calculating the key would just decompress it.)
406 2011-12-08 11:45:21 <[Tycho]> I was talking about some serious normalizing.
407 2011-12-08 11:45:50 <[Tycho]> So image resizing and compression wouldn't affect the key.
408 2011-12-08 11:47:24 <Mqrius> I don't know how to do such a thing. Then again, I do... but it depends heavily on automated tineye.com queries :D
409 2011-12-08 11:47:56 <[Tycho]> I can imagine different approaches.
410 2011-12-08 11:48:47 <SomeoneWeird> lol
411 2011-12-08 11:48:49 <SomeoneWeird> yeh
412 2011-12-08 11:48:55 <SomeoneWeird> or even using google Mqrius
413 2011-12-08 11:49:10 <Mqrius> Oh right, they can do it now too :)
414 2011-12-08 11:50:26 <SomeoneWeird> yep
415 2011-12-08 11:56:43 <genjix> ok thanks Mqrius and sipa
416 2011-12-08 12:04:45 iocor has joined
417 2011-12-08 12:04:58 <SomeoneWeird> anyone used the php fb api before? lol
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433 2011-12-08 12:59:49 <SomeoneWeird> HipHop for PHP transforms PHP source code into highly optimized C++.
434 2011-12-08 12:59:49 <SomeoneWeird> wow
435 2011-12-08 13:01:02 <terrytibbs> SomeoneWeird: neat
436 2011-12-08 13:01:15 <SomeoneWeird> yeah it's pretty cool
437 2011-12-08 13:01:24 <SomeoneWeird> https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php
438 2011-12-08 13:01:33 CryptoX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
439 2011-12-08 13:01:35 <SomeoneWeird> HEY cjdelisle I CODE C++ NOW
440 2011-12-08 13:03:00 CryptoX has joined
441 2011-12-08 13:03:22 <cjdelisle> \o/
442 2011-12-08 13:09:25 <Mqrius> Google web toolkit turns Java into optimized javascript. 's not /that/ useful though.
443 2011-12-08 13:09:42 <SomeoneWeird> heh nice
444 2011-12-08 13:09:50 <SomeoneWeird> C# > Java > js
445 2011-12-08 13:09:51 <SomeoneWeird> lol
446 2011-12-08 13:10:10 <Mqrius> :P
447 2011-12-08 13:10:50 <cjdelisle> actually js is better than java for some things
448 2011-12-08 13:10:59 <cjdelisle> it's fully event based which java should have been
449 2011-12-08 13:13:35 dvide has joined
450 2011-12-08 13:13:46 <SomeoneWeird> true
451 2011-12-08 13:13:54 <SomeoneWeird> which is why i said java > js
452 2011-12-08 13:13:55 <SomeoneWeird> :P
453 2011-12-08 13:15:28 <Mqrius> SomeoneWeird: I think you may find most people interpret "java > js" as "java is better than js" ;)
454 2011-12-08 13:15:46 * SomeoneWeird slaps SomeoneWeird 
455 2011-12-08 13:16:00 <SomeoneWeird> C# -> Java -> JS
456 2011-12-08 13:16:01 <SomeoneWeird> lol
457 2011-12-08 13:18:21 <SomeoneWeird> wonder if we can get facebook to start accepting bitcoin for fb credit
458 2011-12-08 13:18:23 <SomeoneWeird> that'd be big
459 2011-12-08 13:19:46 roconnor has joined
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461 2011-12-08 13:24:06 <SomeoneWeird> gah, facebook api is so shit hahah
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499 2011-12-08 15:42:42 aks has joined
500 2011-12-08 15:42:52 <aks> hi
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514 2011-12-08 16:03:04 <chmod755> is there a bitcoin client in brainfuck?
515 2011-12-08 16:03:48 <tcatm> no :)
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526 2011-12-08 16:26:39 <rjk2> write it ;)
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543 2011-12-08 17:02:39 <[Tycho]> If I'll increase nonce not by one, but by 2 or 4 each time - will the resulting success rate be the same ? I think that it should be, but better to ask :)
544 2011-12-08 17:03:42 <copumpkin> I'd hope so :)
545 2011-12-08 17:03:59 <copumpkin> if not, you should publish a paper
546 2011-12-08 17:04:03 <UukGoblin> ;-]
547 2011-12-08 17:04:05 <[Tycho]> :)
548 2011-12-08 17:04:28 <UukGoblin> influence of odd and even numbers on sha256
549 2011-12-08 17:04:58 <UukGoblin> next time you'll check the paper, it'll say "collisions found!" ;-]
550 2011-12-08 17:05:19 <rjk2> use an RNG to determine hwo much to increment the nonce
551 2011-12-08 17:05:26 * [Tycho] invented a nice way to pack 2-8 chips per board and load them all at once with same data.
552 2011-12-08 17:05:35 <rjk2> wooo
553 2011-12-08 17:05:40 <rjk2> density ftw
554 2011-12-08 17:06:00 <[Tycho]> Not yet sure to place chips on both sides.
555 2011-12-08 17:06:52 <rjk2> what kind of packaging are you thinking of having
556 2011-12-08 17:07:04 <rjk2> something with good heat dissipation i hope
557 2011-12-08 17:09:43 gp5st has joined
558 2011-12-08 17:09:43 <[Tycho]> I'm thinking of QFP44, depending on how many cores they will fit on a single die.
559 2011-12-08 17:11:44 <[Tycho]> Saw some very stylish metal-ceramic QFP packages, but they are so expensive :(
560 2011-12-08 17:11:54 helo has joined
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562 2011-12-08 17:12:21 <rjk2> wonder what the best kind of PCB is for heat dissipation
563 2011-12-08 17:12:44 <rjk2> i would assume different types have different thermal properties
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565 2011-12-08 17:14:22 <[Tycho]> Doesn't always matters.
566 2011-12-08 17:14:39 <[Tycho]> Even less for QFP, comparing to BGA.
567 2011-12-08 17:15:05 <[Tycho]> But if you are curious, aluminum PCBs do exist :)
568 2011-12-08 17:15:28 <rjk2> yeah, i always see the big fancy heatsinks etc on the top, and wonder why the damn chip doesn't just unsolder itself
569 2011-12-08 17:16:46 <[Tycho]> Solder melting point is much higher.
570 2011-12-08 17:17:10 <[Tycho]> Especially for rohs
571 2011-12-08 17:17:15 <rjk2> i suppose so yes
572 2011-12-08 17:17:56 <rjk2> i wonder how much better dissipation you could get by sandwiching the chip in a heatsink on both sides
573 2011-12-08 17:18:01 <[Tycho]> I never tried leadless alloys, but I don't think I'll like it :)
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575 2011-12-08 17:18:40 <[Tycho]> rjk2: depends on the package. Usually chip is transferring heat to just one side at most.
576 2011-12-08 17:18:50 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
577 2011-12-08 17:18:59 <rjk2> i see, so it is specifically designed to channel heat in one direction
578 2011-12-08 17:21:57 <[Tycho]> No. It's just more difficult to take heat from both sides of the chip.
579 2011-12-08 17:23:01 <rjk2> well yes, i figured that out, and i was just trying to figure out how much better it could be if you *were* able to draw heat from both sides.
580 2011-12-08 17:23:30 <rjk2> but it is probably not worth trying because it sounds complex and expensive
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582 2011-12-08 17:28:50 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: poclbm with vectors enabled doesn't go 1-by-1
583 2011-12-08 17:28:54 <luke-jr> it jumps around like crazy
584 2011-12-08 17:29:12 <[Tycho]> Jumps in the nonce space ?
585 2011-12-08 17:29:27 pickett has joined
586 2011-12-08 17:30:15 <luke-jr> yes
587 2011-12-08 17:30:29 <[Tycho]> What for ?
588 2011-12-08 17:30:38 <luke-jr> no idea
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592 2011-12-08 17:42:00 <TuxBlackEdo2> Is there a line of bash that I can use that keeps pinging something when it is down and if it is up it continues to the next line of code?
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600 2011-12-08 17:53:25 <helo> Tuxavant: while ! ping -c 1 host; do sleep 10s; done
601 2011-12-08 17:53:31 <helo> err doh
602 2011-12-08 17:53:42 <helo> sorry for the rogue ping
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605 2011-12-08 18:02:04 <makomk> [Tycho]: I'd be tempted to think about incrementing by one and fiddling with the high bits of the nonce instead, not because it's going to be any more efficient but because it might be easier to make the number of chips configurable that way.
606 2011-12-08 18:02:43 <[Tycho]> What's the difference between this and LSB ?
607 2011-12-08 18:04:48 <makomk> You should be able to set up a couple of registers with bits to AND and OR the nonce with and use those to set the number and values of the MSB at runtime, which I think would be harder with LSB
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609 2011-12-08 18:07:16 <[Tycho]> No need to AND and OR, I can just replace those LSBs with hardwired ones if this function is enabled.
610 2011-12-08 18:08:10 <makomk> Hmmmm, I guess.
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688 2011-12-08 20:55:06 <nanotube> january 3 - blockchain conception day.
689 2011-12-08 20:55:12 <nanotube> pass it on
690 2011-12-08 20:57:05 <BlueMatt> ?
691 2011-12-08 20:57:18 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: celebration for the blockchain anniversary
692 2011-12-08 20:57:24 <BlueMatt> mmm
693 2011-12-08 20:58:38 Sedra has joined
694 2011-12-08 20:59:40 <nanotube> standard greeting for the day: happy bitcoin new year? merry blockchain? :)
695 2011-12-08 21:00:31 <luke-jr> Happy Anniversary!
696 2011-12-08 21:00:32 <luke-jr> <.<
697 2011-12-08 21:00:48 <_Fireball> nice
698 2011-12-08 21:00:56 * BlueMatt thinks we should start a new testnet chain on that day...
699 2011-12-08 21:01:08 Sedra- has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
700 2011-12-08 21:02:37 <rjk2> if it supported MM, you could pay a pool by the hour to make blocks
701 2011-12-08 21:02:57 <luke-jr> … or we can just make blocks regularly.
702 2011-12-08 21:03:11 <luke-jr> but supporting MM on that end is not so simple
703 2011-12-08 21:03:11 <rjk2> when you are't paying the pool, then the block cease
704 2011-12-08 21:03:40 <rjk2> im just trying to figure out the regularity issue
705 2011-12-08 21:03:46 <BlueMatt> but we are paying the pool...
706 2011-12-08 21:03:47 <rjk2> or solve i mean
707 2011-12-08 21:04:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not necessarily.
708 2011-12-08 21:04:21 Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
709 2011-12-08 21:04:31 <BlueMatt> if they never make blocks no, but why would we want to pay someone who never makes blocks?
710 2011-12-08 21:04:34 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I've thought for a while, that testnet should generate to some publicly available private key by default
711 2011-12-08 21:04:56 <rjk2> that's an interesting concept
712 2011-12-08 21:05:02 <BlueMatt> who cares? testnet coins are easy to get
713 2011-12-08 21:05:23 <BlueMatt> and its better to make sure testnet is always as close to mainnet as possible
714 2011-12-08 21:05:56 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not that easy.
715 2011-12-08 21:06:14 <luke-jr> and generating to a known address isn't deviating from mainnet really.
716 2011-12-08 21:06:17 <luke-jr> it's just a configuration thing
717 2011-12-08 21:06:20 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: https://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/
718 2011-12-08 21:06:25 <BlueMatt> Id say thats pretty easy...
719 2011-12-08 21:06:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: someone stole all my testnet coins :/
720 2011-12-08 21:06:37 <BlueMatt> so get some more...
721 2011-12-08 21:07:08 <luke-jr> difficulty is too high now
722 2011-12-08 21:07:11 <luke-jr> and TNIAB works fine
723 2011-12-08 21:07:23 <BlueMatt> well thats what the jan 1 update is for
724 2011-12-08 21:07:37 <luke-jr> 3*
725 2011-12-08 21:07:53 <BlueMatt> I meant https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/686
726 2011-12-08 21:08:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I'll back your suggestion to make it on the blockchain anniversary ;)
727 2011-12-08 21:09:18 <luke-jr> also, why isn't Gavin resetting the testnet genesis too? :/
728 2011-12-08 21:09:27 <BlueMatt> heh, well at the rate new releases roll out around here, the next release probably wont be till jan 3 anyway...
729 2011-12-08 21:09:29 <BlueMatt> gavin isnt
730 2011-12-08 21:09:34 <luke-jr> seems like a waste of space to download all the old blocks
731 2011-12-08 21:09:38 <BlueMatt> I dont think we should, I was suggesting that as a joke
732 2011-12-08 21:09:48 <BlueMatt> why should we?
733 2011-12-08 21:10:07 <BlueMatt> there is history there that is different from mainchain that can make bugs that otherwise wouldnt have been found appear
734 2011-12-08 21:10:08 <luke-jr> IMO, wumpus and gavin should pull all the ACKs, and maybe some next-test parts, and roll 0.6.0beta1 today :P
735 2011-12-08 21:10:10 <BlueMatt> so why remove that?
736 2011-12-08 21:10:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: good point
737 2011-12-08 21:10:23 <BlueMatt> gavin isnt even here...
738 2011-12-08 21:10:47 <BlueMatt> see eg https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools/pull/15
739 2011-12-08 21:11:19 <luke-jr> ⁇⁇
740 2011-12-08 21:11:47 <BlueMatt> a testnet block broke something that mainnet didnt
741 2011-12-08 21:12:02 <luke-jr> o
742 2011-12-08 21:12:04 * cjdelisle adds ⁇ to his Luke character pallet
743 2011-12-08 21:12:19 <luke-jr> ⁉
744 2011-12-08 21:12:23 <luke-jr> ?+!
745 2011-12-08 21:12:25 <luke-jr> hmm
746 2011-12-08 21:12:28 <luke-jr> ‽
747 2011-12-08 21:12:29 <luke-jr> there we go
748 2011-12-08 21:12:30 <cjdelisle> thx
749 2011-12-08 21:12:37 <luke-jr> ⚀
750 2011-12-08 21:12:44 <wumpus> luke-jr: yes we should probably start pulling for next release
751 2011-12-08 21:12:45 <luke-jr> ⚀ ⚁ ⚂ ⚃ ⚄ ⚅
752 2011-12-08 21:12:51 <wumpus> lol unicode fun
753 2011-12-08 21:12:53 <BlueMatt> ...
754 2011-12-08 21:12:57 <luke-jr> wumpus: did you see my summary email?
755 2011-12-08 21:13:22 <wumpus> luke-jr: yes
756 2011-12-08 21:13:28 <luke-jr> ☠
757 2011-12-08 21:13:32 <BlueMatt> wumpus: Im not sure, I think gavin wanted to do a 0.5.1
758 2011-12-08 21:13:46 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I'm prepared to do a 0.5.1 anyway.
759 2011-12-08 21:13:50 <wumpus> that's a next release right?
760 2011-12-08 21:13:58 <BlueMatt> wumpus: depends
761 2011-12-08 21:13:59 <luke-jr> I think he had decided to go ahead with 0.6, but not sure.
762 2011-12-08 21:14:02 <wumpus> 𐎒 
763 2011-12-08 21:14:15 * luke-jr digs out log
764 2011-12-08 21:14:18 <ThomasV> ¿unɟ ƃuıʌɐɥ sʎnƃ noʎ ǝɹɐ
765 2011-12-08 21:14:19 <BlueMatt> wumpus: might be 0.5.1 if we just roll up bugfixes, 0.6 if we add a ton of stuff
766 2011-12-08 21:14:32 <wumpus> <
767 2011-12-08 21:14:45 <wumpus> I remember him talking about merging at least some of the qt pulls
768 2011-12-08 21:14:51 <Eliel> not both?
769 2011-12-08 21:14:58 <BlueMatt> wumpus: what do you think of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/593 in its current state
770 2011-12-08 21:15:41 <wumpus> BlueMatt: the idea still scares me shitless, your implementation is OK though
771 2011-12-08 21:15:51 <luke-jr> wumpus: there's 2 Qt pulls in the ACK list for 0.6 IIRC
772 2011-12-08 21:16:06 <luke-jr> [Friday, December 02, 2011] [1:55:12 PM] <gavinandresen>        Anybody else have an opinion on a 0.5.1 versus going straight to a 0.6rc1 ?
773 2011-12-08 21:16:13 <BlueMatt> wumpus: people still have to verify it first, and the ability to use uris instead of copy-pasting is huge imo
774 2011-12-08 21:16:16 <wumpus> but the idea of direct browser->bitcoin client communications... 
775 2011-12-08 21:16:37 <wumpus> I don't have so much trust in myself to have found all possible security pitfalls
776 2011-12-08 21:16:55 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
777 2011-12-08 21:17:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: do you have KDE support btw?
778 2011-12-08 21:17:25 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: kde/gnome has to be done in the packages, not the binary
779 2011-12-08 21:17:32 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: as you have to register it...
780 2011-12-08 21:17:43 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: yes, and the pull req should do packages too…
781 2011-12-08 21:17:56 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: we dont have packages
782 2011-12-08 21:18:03 <luke-jr> since when?
783 2011-12-08 21:18:06 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: oh, actually thanks for reminding me, I need to add the debian stuff
784 2011-12-08 21:18:09 <BlueMatt> (we do have that
785 2011-12-08 21:18:10 <BlueMatt> )
786 2011-12-08 21:18:16 <BlueMatt> but we dont have kde packages
787 2011-12-08 21:18:38 <luke-jr> …
788 2011-12-08 21:18:40 <wumpus> luke-jr: yes at least the qrcode and capslock pulls, I've been testing them for a while and had no problems
789 2011-12-08 21:18:59 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it's a simple matter of adding a .protocol file to the KDE service handler dir
790 2011-12-08 21:19:14 <luke-jr> wumpus: signmessage was ACK'd too :p
791 2011-12-08 21:19:27 <wumpus> yes
792 2011-12-08 21:20:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: other debian packages dont, so neither should we
793 2011-12-08 21:20:10 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: (afaik)
794 2011-12-08 21:20:16 <BlueMatt> s/afaik/afaict?
795 2011-12-08 21:20:20 <wumpus> but I haven't tested that one personally
796 2011-12-08 21:20:24 <BlueMatt> s|?|/|
797 2011-12-08 21:21:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: of course they do
798 2011-12-08 21:21:51 <BlueMatt> did anyone ever make a decision on the signmessage gui thing?
799 2011-12-08 21:22:15 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Gavin ACK'd it in general; tab vs menu he didn't care about
800 2011-12-08 21:22:21 <luke-jr> people wanted menu, so I moved it there
801 2011-12-08 21:22:34 <BlueMatt> meh, fair enough
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803 2011-12-08 21:23:07 <wumpus> well the biggest issue still open is how to select what key to sign with
804 2011-12-08 21:23:16 storrgie has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
805 2011-12-08 21:23:20 <wumpus> because it isn't associated with a specific transaction at the moment
806 2011-12-08 21:23:39 <luke-jr> wumpus: it works good enough for some, but not all, cases right now
807 2011-12-08 21:24:21 <wumpus> I guess we could merge it but it has to be made more user friendly imo
808 2011-12-08 21:24:43 <wumpus> currently it's mostly useful for devs playing around it seems
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810 2011-12-08 21:25:54 <BlueMatt> thats what rpc is for, if its not user friendly it probably shouldnt be merged into the gui...
811 2011-12-08 21:25:59 <luke-jr> wumpus: it's used in production already.
812 2011-12-08 21:26:17 <wumpus> well it is useful for some diehard users, according to luke-jr
813 2011-12-08 21:26:24 <luke-jr> not diehard
814 2011-12-08 21:26:27 <mother_> is using an untrusted blockchain backup with -rescan safe?
815 2011-12-08 21:26:38 <BlueMatt> s/used in production/used in luke's pool/
816 2011-12-08 21:26:39 <luke-jr> it's useful for proving you own an address, but not so useful for specific transactions yet
817 2011-12-08 21:27:39 <wumpus> so in that case the workflow would be 
818 2011-12-08 21:27:56 <wumpus> site gives a text to sign -> user copies and signs it -> copies it back to site?
819 2011-12-08 21:28:03 <luke-jr> yes
820 2011-12-08 21:28:40 <wumpus> and then you've proven you own the address... then what? in the UI, you don't control the sending address
821 2011-12-08 21:30:06 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: most debian packages Ive seen add the relevant .desktop handler to usr/share/applications and dont touch anything kde specific
822 2011-12-08 21:30:17 <wumpus> you're using it to log in?
823 2011-12-08 21:30:32 <BlueMatt> it should probably have the option to sign using an address or a specific tx's address
824 2011-12-08 21:30:36 <luke-jr> http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=protocol&mode=path&suite=stable&arch=any
825 2011-12-08 21:30:56 <luke-jr> wumpus: more or less
826 2011-12-08 21:31:09 <BlueMatt> ie select tx or address as signer
827 2011-12-08 21:31:23 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I see almost entirely kde packages adding to /usr/share/kde4/services
828 2011-12-08 21:31:35 <wumpus> yes it should probably be a context menu option for transactions
829 2011-12-08 21:31:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I see another service dir
830 2011-12-08 21:31:55 <wumpus> and for receiving addresses
831 2011-12-08 21:32:02 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: same for /usr/share/services
832 2011-12-08 21:32:25 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: when iceweasel adds its protocol handler, then I think bitcoin should
833 2011-12-08 21:32:54 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: but when the vast majority of non-kde apps dont, I dont see why we should...
834 2011-12-08 21:33:39 <mother_> is using an untrusted blockchain backup with the rescan option safe?
835 2011-12-08 21:33:53 <BlueMatt> its not like the kde market is so small no one would complain, are you sure kde doesnt read from the .desktop gnome files
836 2011-12-08 21:34:48 <BlueMatt> mother_: its not gonna make you lose coins, but it might show weirdness
837 2011-12-08 21:35:04 <BlueMatt> mother_: might want to backup wallet pre-rescan so that you can go back to it
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840 2011-12-08 21:38:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: most non-kde apps don't *have* protocols
841 2011-12-08 21:39:09 <luke-jr> lastfm and mumble do
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843 2011-12-08 21:39:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: why doesnt eg iceweasel have a protocol file?
844 2011-12-08 21:40:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: because Firefox does everything using its proprietary registry-clone
845 2011-12-08 21:40:59 <luke-jr> good luck supporting that
846 2011-12-08 21:42:49 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ok why doesnt chromium have a kde protocol file?
847 2011-12-08 21:43:00 mother_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
848 2011-12-08 21:43:05 <luke-jr> nfc
849 2011-12-08 21:43:12 <luke-jr> cuz Google sucks ;D
850 2011-12-08 21:43:21 <BlueMatt> chromium != google...
851 2011-12-08 21:43:48 <BlueMatt> why do all the many, many browsers on http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/web/ not have one?
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853 2011-12-08 21:44:39 <luke-jr> browsers *wouldn't* have them in the first place
854 2011-12-08 21:44:40 <BlueMatt> in fact even a browser which calls itself "KDE web browser based on WebKit" doesnt have one: http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/web/rekonq
855 2011-12-08 21:44:44 <luke-jr> browsers would *use* them
856 2011-12-08 21:44:56 <luke-jr> and rekonq *does*
857 2011-12-08 21:44:58 <BlueMatt> they would have to register http
858 2011-12-08 21:45:02 <luke-jr> no
859 2011-12-08 21:45:12 <BlueMatt> why not?
860 2011-12-08 21:45:29 <luke-jr> because KDE doesn't handle http as a protocol
861 2011-12-08 21:45:36 * BlueMatt facepalm
862 2011-12-08 21:45:44 <luke-jr> it gets the HEAD and launches apps based on Content-Type
863 2011-12-08 21:45:53 <luke-jr> ie, text/html
864 2011-12-08 21:49:32 <BlueMatt> ok, so what about kmail, why no protocol for mailto?
865 2011-12-08 21:49:51 <luke-jr> I didn't design KDE.
866 2011-12-08 21:50:20 <BlueMatt> afaict the vast majority of packages that have protocols associated with them do not provide a .protocol for kde...
867 2011-12-08 21:50:34 <luke-jr> KDE special-cases: Email Client, Embedded Text Editor, File Manager, Instant Messenger, Terminal Emulator, Web Browser, and Window Manager
868 2011-12-08 21:50:40 <BlueMatt> if you wannt write one, Ill put it in...
869 2011-12-08 21:50:54 <BlueMatt> but I dont feel like looking up the spec and putting one together, testing it, etc
870 2011-12-08 21:51:12 <luke-jr> bitcoin-qt <URI> ?
871 2011-12-08 21:51:16 <BlueMatt> yea
872 2011-12-08 21:51:24 <BlueMatt> bitcoin-qt bitcoin:Address
873 2011-12-08 21:51:35 <BlueMatt> or bitcoin-qt bitcoin://Address (for compatibility)
874 2011-12-08 21:51:48 <luke-jr> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/518122/
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876 2011-12-08 21:52:06 <BlueMatt> Icon=bitcoin works?
877 2011-12-08 21:52:11 <luke-jr> /usr/share/kde4/services/bitcoin-qt.protocol
878 2011-12-08 21:52:18 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: works for spesmilo, at least
879 2011-12-08 21:52:32 <luke-jr> I guess it depends what filename you install the icon with
880 2011-12-08 21:52:33 <BlueMatt> Icon=bitcoin does what, there is no icon named bitcoin anywhere
881 2011-12-08 21:52:43 <luke-jr> why not?
882 2011-12-08 21:52:44 <BlueMatt> and where does it look for icons?
883 2011-12-08 21:52:49 <BlueMatt> its bitcoin-qt
884 2011-12-08 21:52:50 <luke-jr> you need one for the appmenu icon too
885 2011-12-08 21:52:57 <luke-jr> ok, so change it to that
886 2011-12-08 21:53:05 <BlueMatt> actaully, no its bitcoin80.xpm
887 2011-12-08 21:53:08 <BlueMatt> does kde support xpm?
888 2011-12-08 21:53:24 <BlueMatt> and does it search in /usr/share/pixmaps/
889 2011-12-08 21:53:34 <luke-jr> should
890 2011-12-08 21:54:04 <luke-jr> I think
891 2011-12-08 21:54:13 <luke-jr> Spesmilo uses/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/bitcoin.png
892 2011-12-08 21:54:28 <luke-jr> which is where icons are SUPPOSED to be
893 2011-12-08 21:55:06 <BlueMatt> well whatever app I used as a base happened to use /usr/share/pixmaps
894 2011-12-08 21:55:13 <BlueMatt> and I see most of my apps are using it as well
895 2011-12-08 21:55:39 <BlueMatt> well maybe half/half
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898 2011-12-08 21:57:50 <BlueMatt> anyway, the icon used is 80x80 and there is no 80x80 folder in /usr/share/icons/hicolor on my system
899 2011-12-08 21:58:09 <luke-jr> …
900 2011-12-08 21:58:18 <luke-jr> surely we have a proper icon somewhere
901 2011-12-08 21:58:23 <BlueMatt> hey, thats the icon I had
902 2011-12-08 21:58:43 <BlueMatt> and Im not gonna go around searching a ton and rendering icons to make them a specific size
903 2011-12-08 21:58:56 <BlueMatt> if you feel like it, please do
904 2011-12-08 21:59:55 <luke-jr> better no icon than no protocol
905 2011-12-08 22:00:47 <BlueMatt> better fix both the one or neither
906 2011-12-08 22:01:13 <BlueMatt> also Im lazy and working on other stuff atm, if you fix them Ill put it in the pull req
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915 2011-12-08 22:30:13 <ageis> i put the icon for my bitcoin app in there myself
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936 2011-12-08 23:15:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: just take out the icon line if you don't want to install an icon in the standard place
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938 2011-12-08 23:19:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: meh, whatever I added your file (sans Icon)
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