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  5 2011-12-09 00:07:22 <t3a> hi
  6 2011-12-09 00:14:42 <BlueMatt> hello
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 14 2011-12-09 00:37:20 <luke-jr> I think I've come to the conclusion that signmessage is not (currently) usable for verifying individual transactions
 15 2011-12-09 00:38:23 <gmaxwell> ... Why is this news to you?
 16 2011-12-09 00:38:29 <luke-jr> and implementing it is non-trivial, as the core code has NO INTERNALS to check the 'from' address of a transaction
 17 2011-12-09 00:38:49 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I was thinking we could just standardize on "txid:" prefix to messages
 18 2011-12-09 00:39:00 <gmaxwell> The user has no understanding of their from addresses in any case— for all they know the froms could be change addresses they've never seen before.
 19 2011-12-09 00:39:06 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: problem is, then people will trust it even if txid didn't have the signing address as an input…
 20 2011-12-09 00:39:44 <gmaxwell> hm. perhaps signmessage could actually take a txid as the 'from' and then autoselect an input used in that txn?
 21 2011-12-09 00:39:52 larsig has joined
 22 2011-12-09 00:39:54 <gmaxwell> then likewise for verify?
 23 2011-12-09 00:39:58 <luke-jr> so to extend signmessage (let alone GUI) to cover the transaction case, requires internals to get 'from' address
 24 2011-12-09 00:40:10 <gmaxwell> No, see what I just suggested ^
 25 2011-12-09 00:40:13 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: there is no way to get from input CScript to address
 26 2011-12-09 00:40:33 <gmaxwell> It wouldn't take much code.
 27 2011-12-09 00:41:45 <luke-jr> want to write it? :P
 28 2011-12-09 00:41:56 <gmaxwell> In January!
 29 2011-12-09 00:42:06 <luke-jr> >.>
 30 2011-12-09 00:43:59 <gmaxwell> A fundimental problem is that the 'from' may not even have an 'address'.
 31 2011-12-09 00:44:35 <gmaxwell> E.g. what happens when someone has some inputs in their wallet that are weird hash locked/escrow/whatever.  The nature of those transactions should be irrelevant to who they ultimately spend them to.
 32 2011-12-09 00:44:42 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
 33 2011-12-09 00:47:56 * BlueMatt is still of the opinion that signmessage really isnt something that should ever be used
 34 2011-12-09 00:49:31 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Life without danger is a waste of oxygen)
 35 2011-12-09 00:51:22 <doublec> why?
 36 2011-12-09 00:51:54 <BlueMatt> because there really arent any reasons why you should where there arent better alternatives
 37 2011-12-09 00:52:27 b4epoche_ has joined
 38 2011-12-09 00:52:51 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: true. so rather, transaction sigs should be based on the keys actually signing the txn rather than input scripts
 39 2011-12-09 00:52:54 <lianj> if i read this right, in current bitcoin are there only to types of tx scripts allowed?
 40 2011-12-09 00:53:04 <lianj> s/to/two/
 41 2011-12-09 00:53:14 <BlueMatt> lianj: sounds right
 42 2011-12-09 00:53:14 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: now the question becomes, can one see that two sigs are the same key?
 43 2011-12-09 00:53:20 <gmaxwell> lianj: Defined "allowed"?
 44 2011-12-09 00:53:22 <BlueMatt> lianj: send-to-pubkey and send-to-address
 45 2011-12-09 00:53:35 <lianj> because of people messing to much with useless scripts?
 46 2011-12-09 00:53:37 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: send-to-script is now live
 47 2011-12-09 00:53:40 <BlueMatt> well by default wont be mined or forwarded, but all will be accepted in blocks
 48 2011-12-09 00:53:44 <gmaxwell> lianj: Other kinds can be validly placed in the blockchain.
 49 2011-12-09 00:53:48 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: in release versions?
 50 2011-12-09 00:53:52 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no
 51 2011-12-09 00:53:57 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: but that's irrelevant
 52 2011-12-09 00:54:03 <gmaxwell> And other kinds will be mined by some nodes, relayed by some nodes.. but they aren't by default.
 53 2011-12-09 00:54:05 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: so its live only on your pool, that means nothing
 54 2011-12-09 00:54:11 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: are there any in main blockchain?
 55 2011-12-09 00:54:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it means it's usable.
 56 2011-12-09 00:54:15 <gmaxwell> Agreed with luke-jr that it's irrelevant.
 57 2011-12-09 00:54:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: luke-jr is correct, mainline is irrelevant there— _none_ of the large miners run mainline.
 58 2011-12-09 00:55:06 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but my point is more that that particular feature probably wont be in many pools until its in mainline
 59 2011-12-09 00:55:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's false
 60 2011-12-09 00:55:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and since its only on one pool and more importantly wont be forwarded, its not really "live"
 61 2011-12-09 00:55:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Thats not true.
 62 2011-12-09 00:55:21 <lianj> so we went from script with many possibilities, to whitelist some of them (just two atm) and add more in times to come (like mulisig) ?
 63 2011-12-09 00:55:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well atleast merged into git
 64 2011-12-09 00:55:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's false
 65 2011-12-09 00:55:49 <luke-jr> most pools will merge/patch it in by hand
 66 2011-12-09 00:55:53 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: what pool will include it before its merged?
 67 2011-12-09 00:55:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: gavin has been working pool by pool on this.
 68 2011-12-09 00:56:08 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yes, they will merge it by hand, but they wont merge it until its in git mainline
 69 2011-12-09 00:56:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Eligius, Deepbit, and slush IIRC
 70 2011-12-09 00:56:15 <luke-jr> yes, we will
 71 2011-12-09 00:56:19 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: have it already?
 72 2011-12-09 00:56:22 <gmaxwell> (including porting to patch to specific versions)
 73 2011-12-09 00:56:22 <luke-jr> mainline will only get the final stage OP_EVAL
 74 2011-12-09 00:56:30 <luke-jr> pools will need to enable it before then
 75 2011-12-09 00:56:39 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: IIRC Tycho was working on it
 76 2011-12-09 00:56:46 <BlueMatt> anyway, needs to be forwarded first...
 77 2011-12-09 00:56:51 <BlueMatt> which it currently isnt...
 78 2011-12-09 00:57:01 <luke-jr> or keepnode eligius
 79 2011-12-09 00:57:02 <BlueMatt> so I would argue its not live even if pools accept it
 80 2011-12-09 00:57:02 <luke-jr> :P
 81 2011-12-09 00:57:24 <gmaxwell> lianj: in any case, it really depends on what you mean by allowed. There are three relevant criteria:  can it exist in the chain, will it be forwarded, and will it be mined.
 82 2011-12-09 00:58:18 <gmaxwell> lianj: The answer is Yes for the first for all valid scripts, Mostly-No for the second for all but two, and Mostly-yes for the third if you don't mind waiting for the few pools that will accept them.
 83 2011-12-09 00:58:35 <luke-jr> sipa: do you think you could design a spec for signmessage mode B that uses txnid instead of address?
 84 2011-12-09 00:58:49 <BlueMatt> can I ask why pools will mine on a chain with OP_EVAL before clients will accept those blocks, seems...backwards?
 85 2011-12-09 00:59:05 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: all clients today will accept those blocks
 86 2011-12-09 00:59:17 <BlueMatt> when was OP_EVAL acceptance merged?
 87 2011-12-09 00:59:19 <lianj> ok thanks. thats what i thought
 88 2011-12-09 00:59:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: OP_EVAL is backward compatible for everyone except miners.
 89 2011-12-09 00:59:32 <gmaxwell> 16:57 <@BlueMatt> can I ask why pools will mine on a chain with OP_EVAL before clients will accept those blocks, seems...backwards?
 90 2011-12-09 00:59:34 <BlueMatt> mmm, its OP_NOP
 91 2011-12-09 00:59:35 <gmaxwell> !
 92 2011-12-09 00:59:46 * gmaxwell hits BlueMatt with a trout. Get with the program! :)
 93 2011-12-09 00:59:48 <BlueMatt> hey, I never bothered to follow any of the multisig stuff
 94 2011-12-09 01:00:22 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: and pools are accepting it early in part so we can do the majority hashpower 'vote' to prove it viable before actually including it.
 95 2011-12-09 01:00:25 <BlueMatt> it started to be discussed right when I had absolutely no time to follow bitcoin so if it was multisig, I ignored it so that I could atleast deal with build and gitian stuff...
 96 2011-12-09 01:00:41 <BlueMatt> well now that I understand that it will be accepted, I get it
 97 2011-12-09 01:00:42 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: every miner with this patch adds a OP_EVAL to their coinbase to signify support.
 98 2011-12-09 01:01:39 <BlueMatt> nice
 99 2011-12-09 01:01:39 <gmaxwell> while OP_EVAL is compatible it has some chain splitting risk if someone maliciously tried to make trouble... so we only want to really deploy it when we know a good majority of the hash power is behind it.
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101 2011-12-09 01:02:14 <gmaxwell> E.g. you could use a modified node to mine a txn with OP_EVAL that is invalid to OP_EVAL nodes but valid to everyone else.
102 2011-12-09 01:02:28 copumpkin has joined
103 2011-12-09 01:02:29 <BlueMatt> yea
104 2011-12-09 01:03:39 <gmaxwell> (It's also a proof of concept for making other changes...)
105 2011-12-09 01:03:50 <BlueMatt> yep
106 2011-12-09 01:04:09 <BlueMatt> will op_eval txes be forwarded by current nodes?
107 2011-12-09 01:04:12 <BlueMatt> (Im assuming not)
108 2011-12-09 01:04:15 <BlueMatt> not IsStandard...
109 2011-12-09 01:04:16 <luke-jr> no
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111 2011-12-09 01:05:09 <gmaxwell> Right, (and, hey, this is another reason to get keepnode merged sooner rather than later)
112 2011-12-09 01:05:24 <BlueMatt> hey, I dont know why keepnode still isnt merged
113 2011-12-09 01:05:40 <BlueMatt> (aside from the fact it has 0 comments on the pull-req...)
114 2011-12-09 01:05:52 <BlueMatt> oh wait, no luke ack'd it
115 2011-12-09 01:06:02 <BlueMatt> well atleast it has 1...
116 2011-12-09 01:06:18 <gmaxwell> I only got to test it a little, thus no ack from me yet. :-/  It looked okay though.
117 2011-12-09 01:06:32 <BlueMatt> oh wait there was one potential race I wanted to test...
118 2011-12-09 01:06:35 coblee_ has joined
119 2011-12-09 01:06:57 <BlueMatt> well more like work around because I dont feel like actually testing it...
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127 2011-12-09 01:24:53 <BlueMatt> while Im digging through code, what should the maximum wait time of the exponential backoff for retrying connection to -keepnode's be?
128 2011-12-09 01:24:59 <BlueMatt> (powers of 2 minutes)
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133 2011-12-09 01:28:32 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I don't think it should be higher than a few minutes— otherwise network outages leave it disconnected a long time... also a 'couple minutes' is enough to keep it from DOSing things.
134 2011-12-09 01:29:08 <BlueMatt> couple being 2, 4, 8, 16, or 32?
135 2011-12-09 01:29:23 <BlueMatt> s/couple/few/
136 2011-12-09 01:29:27 <gmaxwell> more like 2-4 than higher, I think.
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142 2011-12-09 01:36:31 <BlueMatt> someone have a dns name for their node I can use to test really quick?
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145 2011-12-09 01:44:04 <sipa> BlueMatt: bitcoin.sipa.be
146 2011-12-09 01:44:22 <BlueMatt> thanks
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152 2011-12-09 01:49:06 <sipa> luke-jr: i think it's wrong to use a tx's prevout's address as identity for the payer, which is what you'd encourage by signing based on it
153 2011-12-09 01:49:32 <luke-jr> sipa: no, that's why I said we need a NEW form of signmessage just for txns
154 2011-12-09 01:49:40 <sipa> or is there another use case?
155 2011-12-09 01:49:57 <luke-jr> ignore the prevout and vin entirely.
156 2011-12-09 01:50:08 <luke-jr> instead of signing with an address, we sign with a txnid.
157 2011-12-09 01:50:32 <luke-jr> the technical details might be, to sign it with one of the keys that signed the txn.
158 2011-12-09 01:51:03 <sipa> right... same problem
159 2011-12-09 01:51:05 <luke-jr> which will *usually* be the same as a vin, but unlike vin is guaranteed to always be standard
160 2011-12-09 01:51:26 <luke-jr> vin is not-really-associated with the transaction, but the keys used to sign the transaction definitely are.
161 2011-12-09 01:51:47 <luke-jr> and those keys are basically guaranteed to exist
162 2011-12-09 01:51:50 <sipa> what do you need it for?
163 2011-12-09 01:51:57 <luke-jr> sipa: proof of payment
164 2011-12-09 01:52:34 <sipa> why do you need it to be done by the same identity as the author of the tx?
165 2011-12-09 01:52:44 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
166 2011-12-09 01:52:57 <BlueMatt> ok, new keepnode pushed, now with less redundant code and less potential to segfault in very rare cases
167 2011-12-09 01:53:07 ahihi2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
168 2011-12-09 01:53:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'll look at it soon, poke me if i forget
169 2011-12-09 01:54:03 <sipa> ok phone battery is done
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171 2011-12-09 01:54:05 <sipa> cya
172 2011-12-09 01:54:11 <BlueMatt> bye
173 2011-12-09 01:54:40 <luke-jr> sipa: that's how you prove you sent it, obviously.
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177 2011-12-09 01:58:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I did 8 minutes, if anyone has objections speak now or forever hold your peace
178 2011-12-09 02:00:03 <luke-jr> I object.
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182 2011-12-09 02:00:14 <luke-jr> It should be a timton.
183 2011-12-09 02:00:29 <luke-jr> (5 minutes 37.5 seconds)
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185 2011-12-09 02:02:07 <gmaxwell> I wonder what OSes use for the backfor for tcp syns?
186 2011-12-09 02:03:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, wat
187 2011-12-09 02:04:23 <gmaxwell> er autotype error, for the maximum backoff on initial syn.
188 2011-12-09 02:06:41 <phantomcircuit> i repeat
189 2011-12-09 02:06:42 <phantomcircuit> wat
190 2011-12-09 02:06:50 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, there is a simple timeout for the initial syn
191 2011-12-09 02:07:08 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I thought it did exponential backoff for that too. 0_o
192 2011-12-09 02:07:17 <gmaxwell> memory fail for me then.
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194 2011-12-09 02:07:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i guess the interval increases between syn
195 2011-12-09 02:08:14 <phantomcircuit> the default timeout on linux is huge
196 2011-12-09 02:08:17 <phantomcircuit> like 2 minutes
197 2011-12-09 02:08:25 <BlueMatt> o rly?
198 2011-12-09 02:08:49 <phantomcircuit> yeah it's why the connect stuff had to be changed
199 2011-12-09 02:09:14 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think 8 minutes is too high... besides, if every single bitcoin node keepnoded a single host.. that was full/down to minutes would be 333 PPS or about 100kbit/sec... which isn't a big deal at all.
200 2011-12-09 02:09:33 <gmaxwell> s/to/for two/
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202 2011-12-09 02:10:01 <BlueMatt> fair enough, though if default timeout is 2 min, minimum timeout should also be 2 minutes
203 2011-12-09 02:10:11 <BlueMatt> which means we would have exponential backoff - from 2 minutes to 4 ;)
204 2011-12-09 02:10:18 <BlueMatt> seems kinda...overkill
205 2011-12-09 02:10:39 <gmaxwell> Yea, it's overkill— as mentioned 2 minutes gets you a fairly low rate.
206 2011-12-09 02:10:41 <phantomcircuit> what's this all about
207 2011-12-09 02:10:48 <phantomcircuit> im too lazy to read scrollback
208 2011-12-09 02:10:59 <BlueMatt> -keenode timeout between retries
209 2011-12-09 02:11:14 <BlueMatt> fair enough, Ill just change it to Sleep(2000);
210 2011-12-09 02:11:14 <phantomcircuit> keepnode?
211 2011-12-09 02:11:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you still need some timeout in your code because the initial syn timeout doesn't apply to e.g. if you get hung up on right away, or if you get an ICMP unreach.
212 2011-12-09 02:11:28 <BlueMatt> -addnode but retry forever until you get connected
213 2011-12-09 02:11:42 <BlueMatt> yea, ofc
214 2011-12-09 02:11:44 <phantomcircuit> ah
215 2011-12-09 02:11:50 theymos has joined
216 2011-12-09 02:12:42 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: oh, you should also take care not to block the network thread for long spans of time.
217 2011-12-09 02:12:54 <gmaxwell> (e.g. I don't think inserting a sleep is ideal)
218 2011-12-09 02:13:01 <BlueMatt> its a separate thread
219 2011-12-09 02:13:10 <BlueMatt> -keepnode connect is a separate thread
220 2011-12-09 02:13:27 <gmaxwell> shows how useful my memory is. ... but ... seperate thread for each keepnode?
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222 2011-12-09 02:13:47 <BlueMatt> no, one additional thread
223 2011-12-09 02:14:02 <BlueMatt> which while(true) { add keepnodes; sleep (2min); }
224 2011-12-09 02:15:09 <gmaxwell> I guess someone ought to test that with a bunch of unresponsive (no icmp error) nodes plus one good one just to make sure it doesn't get stuck on down ones.
225 2011-12-09 02:16:15 <BlueMatt> if OpenNetworkConnection(CAddress addr) gets stuck on an unresponsive node, then we have a more serious problem than just -keepnode
226 2011-12-09 02:16:56 <gmaxwell> I don't think it does anymore.
227 2011-12-09 02:17:00 <gmaxwell> (it used to)
228 2011-12-09 02:17:12 <BlueMatt> well then -keepnode is safe
229 2011-12-09 02:17:40 <gmaxwell> The other thing we're currently lacking is a way to figure out if your kn's are actually up.
230 2011-12-09 02:17:51 <BlueMatt> true
231 2011-12-09 02:17:57 <gmaxwell> As you only see a raw connection count... it means your KN config can bitrot.
232 2011-12-09 02:18:11 <gmaxwell> (and if you're depending on KN's for security or forwarding properties, thats bad)
233 2011-12-09 02:18:22 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey you
234 2011-12-09 02:18:22 <BlueMatt> true
235 2011-12-09 02:18:26 <Diablo-D3> did you change the top 10?
236 2011-12-09 02:18:30 <gmaxwell> No sir.
237 2011-12-09 02:18:41 <BlueMatt> should I add a keepnode-connections field to getinfo?
238 2011-12-09 02:18:45 <Diablo-D3> I wonder who did
239 2011-12-09 02:19:05 <Diablo-D3> owner of EMC? is bitching at me because top 10 got changed and bumped him out
240 2011-12-09 02:19:05 <gmaxwell> I thought about it when someone was complaining that something wasn't listed but .. got distracted before I figured out if I should.
241 2011-12-09 02:19:06 <Diablo-D3> but it wasnt me
242 2011-12-09 02:19:45 <Diablo-D3> welp, I guess its top ten sorting time
243 2011-12-09 02:19:54 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: or a listpeers RPC that tells you all the peers you're connected to, if they're keepnodes, etc.
244 2011-12-09 02:20:06 <BlueMatt> that sounds like more work...
245 2011-12-09 02:20:19 <gmaxwell> Yea.. seperate patch.
246 2011-12-09 02:20:22 <theymos> Diablo-D3: It was Maged.
247 2011-12-09 02:20:36 <BlueMatt> well if I remember Ill write it tomorrow or sometime...
248 2011-12-09 02:21:18 <Diablo-D3> theymos: who?
249 2011-12-09 02:21:40 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: (it could also show their badness score, what block they've told you about, their network time offset, some other crap.. scope creep scope creep.
250 2011-12-09 02:21:43 <gmaxwell> )
251 2011-12-09 02:21:59 <theymos> Diablo-D3: He's a global moderator. I don't know why he unstickied it -- I just see it in the moderation log. You'll have to ask him about it.
252 2011-12-09 02:22:22 <Diablo-D3> we have global mods? since when?
253 2011-12-09 02:22:33 <theymos> Always.
254 2011-12-09 02:22:33 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: perhaps the criteria should be changed to "big enough to solve N blocks a week" based on current rate and difficulty (you pick the N because I have NFI)
255 2011-12-09 02:22:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, well well see how inspired I feel when writing it...(probably quite a bit since I will likely be procrastinating writing a final...)
256 2011-12-09 02:22:50 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: that'd make it easier. we'd have three pools.
257 2011-12-09 02:23:01 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: Even I knew who Maged is.. read the staff forum.
258 2011-12-09 02:23:08 <Diablo-D3> theres a staff forum?!
259 2011-12-09 02:23:56 MimeNarrator has joined
260 2011-12-09 02:24:02 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: when you were little did people often trick you?
261 2011-12-09 02:24:22 <Diablo-D3> no, but dude, I never venture out of the mining subforum
262 2011-12-09 02:24:27 <gmaxwell> :)
263 2011-12-09 02:24:28 <Diablo-D3> too many people I want dead
264 2011-12-09 02:25:00 <theymos> It's a top-level section listed near the bottom of the front page.
265 2011-12-09 02:25:06 <gmaxwell> 0_o
266 2011-12-09 02:25:07 <theymos> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=3.0
267 2011-12-09 02:25:22 <BlueMatt> awww, Im not admin...
268 2011-12-09 02:25:29 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
269 2011-12-09 02:25:51 <theymos> Diablo-D3: Recently I posted some mod action counts. You're fifth in mod actions. Pretty impressive!
270 2011-12-09 02:25:52 <Diablo-D3> theymos: yeah, but when was the last time I looked at the front page?
271 2011-12-09 02:26:03 <Diablo-D3> dude, I'd be first if you let me ban people
272 2011-12-09 02:26:28 <theymos> I'm sure you would be, but then there'd be no users. :)
273 2011-12-09 02:26:44 <Diablo-D3> you say that like theres a problem
274 2011-12-09 02:26:59 <k9quaint> he wouldn't ban me, I am far too sexy
275 2011-12-09 02:27:35 <Diablo-D3> hah
276 2011-12-09 02:27:37 <SomeoneWeird> lolol
277 2011-12-09 02:27:51 <Diablo-D3> unison mod wrath
278 2011-12-09 02:27:52 <Diablo-D3> fear
279 2011-12-09 02:28:08 <BlueMatt> heh, hes not coming back...
280 2011-12-09 02:28:17 <BlueMatt> ...oops
281 2011-12-09 02:28:39 <theymos> You kiilled him. You monster!
282 2011-12-09 02:29:07 <Diablo-D3> now Im going to read everything theymos says in that voice.
283 2011-12-09 02:29:57 <BlueMatt> heh
284 2011-12-09 02:31:03 <SomeoneWeird> lol
285 2011-12-09 02:31:05 <SomeoneWeird> -.-
286 2011-12-09 02:31:39 k9quaint has joined
287 2011-12-09 02:31:48 <k9quaint> nerve, kicking me when I wasnt looking :P
288 2011-12-09 02:32:02 <BlueMatt> damn, you look away quick
289 2011-12-09 02:33:12 <k9quaint> hazards of having a 6 year old :)
290 2011-12-09 02:33:21 <BlueMatt> heh
291 2011-12-09 02:34:22 <Diablo-D3> lol
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294 2011-12-09 02:36:33 <k9quaint> I guess I should flip out and make an altcoin or something :)
295 2011-12-09 02:37:10 <Diablo-D3> yeah seems all the rage
296 2011-12-09 02:37:41 <k9quaint> Bannedfrombitcoincoin
297 2011-12-09 02:38:10 <Diablo-D3> bfbcbtc
298 2011-12-09 02:38:22 <k9quaint> why aren't the top 10 pools sorted by size?
299 2011-12-09 02:38:28 <k9quaint> (lazy mod)
300 2011-12-09 02:38:31 <Diablo-D3> no
301 2011-12-09 02:38:35 <Diablo-D3> the forum software doesnt support it
302 2011-12-09 02:38:41 <Diablo-D3> they're sorted by last post
303 2011-12-09 02:39:08 <k9quaint> isn't the forum software opensource?
304 2011-12-09 02:41:03 <Diablo-D3> yes, but its also php.
305 2011-12-09 02:41:30 <gmaxwell> sorting them by size is _not_ what we want.
306 2011-12-09 02:41:41 <k9quaint> let me know once you have modded it to support ordering sticky threads by hash size, I will test it :P
307 2011-12-09 02:41:46 <gmaxwell> it's bad for the network to encourage people to concentrate on the largest few pools.
308 2011-12-09 02:42:01 <Diablo-D3> yeah I was actually thinking about getting rid of stickies
309 2011-12-09 02:42:05 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: true, but you could have waiting until after he added it
310 2011-12-09 02:42:15 <gmaxwell> The only reason to have a size cutoff is just to help people avoid miniscampools.
311 2011-12-09 02:42:16 <k9quaint> *waited
312 2011-12-09 02:42:38 <Diablo-D3> and just give the biggest, say, 3 pools their own subforums
313 2011-12-09 02:42:50 <theymos> I wouldn't do stickies. Just list them in one sticky topic if necessary.
314 2011-12-09 02:43:08 <SomeoneWeird> Diablo-D3, that'll have the same effect?
315 2011-12-09 02:43:57 <k9quaint> big pooling is an interesting tragedy of commons problem
316 2011-12-09 02:45:29 <Diablo-D3> theymos: hrm.
317 2011-12-09 02:45:38 <Diablo-D3> theymos: still takes too much effort
318 2011-12-09 02:46:17 <theymos> I probably wouldn't deal with it at all. Let some other site maintain a top 10.
319 2011-12-09 02:48:41 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: I don't think it is... it's not like people gain enormously from using the biggest.
320 2011-12-09 02:48:54 <k9quaint> its the safety in numbers instinct
321 2011-12-09 02:49:13 <k9quaint> probably a pretty powerful urge in first time users
322 2011-12-09 02:49:25 <gmaxwell> They have no other basis to go on.
323 2011-12-09 02:49:31 <k9quaint> indeed
324 2011-12-09 02:50:52 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: well they do, actually, but apparently a couple percent fee difference doesn't matter to anyone.
325 2011-12-09 02:51:57 <k9quaint> I am sure Bank of America could elaborate further on the effects of fees on customers
326 2011-12-09 02:52:04 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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328 2011-12-09 02:54:35 <k9quaint> ouch, more shooting at VTech :(
329 2011-12-09 02:55:29 <Diablo-D3> heh
330 2011-12-09 02:55:36 <Diablo-D3> subject of a thread in mod forum
331 2011-12-09 02:55:42 <Diablo-D3> "Apparently, I'm a dick"
332 2011-12-09 02:55:56 <Diablo-D3> a dick is just another name for a mod.
333 2011-12-09 02:59:47 <phantomcircuit> awesome
334 2011-12-09 02:59:51 <phantomcircuit> make -j
335 2011-12-09 02:59:56 <phantomcircuit> no swapping
336 2011-12-09 02:59:58 <phantomcircuit> ^_^
337 2011-12-09 03:00:34 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
338 2011-12-09 03:00:57 wolfspraul has joined
339 2011-12-09 03:01:26 * BlueMatt has no swap...and usually -j8's
340 2011-12-09 03:01:30 magn3ts has quit (Quit: Leaving)
341 2011-12-09 03:03:14 <SomeoneWeird> lol
342 2011-12-09 03:03:44 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
343 2011-12-09 03:03:45 <gribble> 156710
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353 2011-12-09 03:58:29 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r906c02584c34 / (19 files in 7 dirs): new style network interface [old style: network_ptr + channel_handle -> new style: network_ptr / channel_ptr] http://tinyurl.com/8xkjfc6
354 2011-12-09 04:04:36 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
355 2011-12-09 04:08:13 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * ra626229c3f06 / (19 files in 7 dirs): new style network interface [old style: network_ptr + channel_handle -> new style: network_ptr / channel_ptr] http://tinyurl.com/cxzxpyo
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432 2011-12-09 08:44:56 <SomeoneWeird> ffs. anyone have any experience with facebook api?
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447 2011-12-09 09:45:14 <doublec> SomeoneWeird: I did a while back
448 2011-12-09 09:45:31 <doublec> SomeoneWeird: I'm a bit rusty now tho
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469 2011-12-09 11:02:40 <c_k> http://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=24hrs
470 2011-12-09 11:02:41 <c_k> wtf
471 2011-12-09 11:02:47 <c_k> oops, wrong chan
472 2011-12-09 11:12:47 da2ce7 has joined
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474 2011-12-09 11:24:24 <sipa> luke-jr: that proves you (or someone else having access to your keys) created it, yes; but what do you need that information for?
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489 2011-12-09 11:47:47 <cande> can you send bitcoins via NFC without internet access?
490 2011-12-09 11:49:03 <sipa> in theory... i suppose you could transmit a signed tx through nfc, without broadcasting it yourself
491 2011-12-09 11:49:35 <justmoon> cande, yes, TD (BitcoinJ) has done testing with NFC - as for sending offline, you won't know if there has been a conflicting transaction until you get online and check the blockchain (and of course you can't get your own transaction confirmed until you can send it to miners)
492 2011-12-09 11:49:36 <sipa> but i don't know about any defined interfaces or implementations
493 2011-12-09 11:50:04 <sipa> in the future, i believe that is the way to go even
494 2011-12-09 11:50:15 <justmoon> sipa: for sure
495 2011-12-09 11:50:25 <sipa> send your transaction directly to the one who cares about whether it goes through
496 2011-12-09 11:50:29 <justmoon> just worried carriers will lock us out, like apple did
497 2011-12-09 11:51:10 <sipa> on the other hand... devices with NFC but without internet connection may be rare
498 2011-12-09 11:51:27 <justmoon> sipa: traveling, bad reception
499 2011-12-09 11:51:33 <sipa> maybe
500 2011-12-09 11:51:46 <sipa> so it may prove easier to send the tx to your merchant via IP than via NFC... not sure what the future will bring
501 2011-12-09 11:52:19 <cande> hm
502 2011-12-09 11:52:35 <justmoon> it's certainly more likely that the merchant will have internet than it is for you to have it
503 2011-12-09 11:52:41 <sipa> true
504 2011-12-09 11:52:51 <justmoon> and since he's the recipient he's the only one who cares about confirming the tx anyway
505 2011-12-09 11:53:05 <justmoon> nfc definitely seems the way to go
506 2011-12-09 11:53:17 <justmoon> less dependency on outside factors
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509 2011-12-09 11:53:48 <cande> an NFC signed tx can be broadcast by the reciever to get it verified
510 2011-12-09 11:53:56 <sipa> yes, that's the idea
511 2011-12-09 11:54:02 <justmoon> cande, it would be a normal transaction like any other
512 2011-12-09 11:54:14 <justmoon> it doesn't matter who submits it to the network
513 2011-12-09 11:54:19 <justmoon> it's p2p anyway
514 2011-12-09 11:54:25 <justmoon> relaying is the same as sending
515 2011-12-09 11:54:27 <justmoon> (almost)
516 2011-12-09 11:54:32 <justmoon> except for rebroadcasting
517 2011-12-09 11:54:37 <justmoon> (don't worry about that :P)
518 2011-12-09 11:54:54 <cande> but if you get the tx from the bitcoin network, then you atleast know its not conflicting
519 2011-12-09 11:55:25 <sipa> if you have a full node as merchant; you can verify whether the incoming tx isn't conflicting either
520 2011-12-09 11:55:49 <sipa> most likely you'll use a third party service for that, i imagine
521 2011-12-09 11:56:04 <justmoon> yeah, bitcoinjs has an api call that tells you
522 2011-12-09 11:56:25 <cande> how does that api work?
523 2011-12-09 11:56:37 <justmoon> when you submit a new transaction for broadcast, it'll tell you if it passed verification or not
524 2011-12-09 11:56:46 <sipa> nice
525 2011-12-09 11:57:15 <cande> ah
526 2011-12-09 11:57:44 <cande> 0confirms also?
527 2011-12-09 11:57:54 <sipa> it can't do more than that
528 2011-12-09 11:58:01 <sipa> or the API would block
529 2011-12-09 11:58:05 <justmoon> don't understand the question
530 2011-12-09 11:58:24 <justmoon> oh you mean does it tell you when the transaction is confirmed?
531 2011-12-09 11:58:57 <justmoon> if you're either the receiver or sender, then yes, it'll tell you about confirmations in real time
532 2011-12-09 11:59:12 <cande> hm good :)
533 2011-12-09 11:59:14 <justmoon> (basically, it'll tell you about events that concern any addresses in your wallet)
534 2011-12-09 12:00:12 <cande> but today no mobile nfc app sends a tx with nfc to the receiver
535 2011-12-09 12:00:31 <justmoon> you have to TD, I'm not sure what's implemented and what isn't
536 2011-12-09 12:00:41 <cande> what does TD stand for?
537 2011-12-09 12:00:49 <justmoon> it's a username
538 2011-12-09 12:01:09 <cande> is TD in this channel?
539 2011-12-09 12:01:26 <justmoon> TD[gone] <- that guy :)
540 2011-12-09 12:01:30 <justmoon> he's away it seems
541 2011-12-09 12:01:38 <justmoon> or offline probably
542 2011-12-09 12:01:40 <cande> ah :)
543 2011-12-09 12:02:21 <justmoon> I believe he announced doing the first ever bitcoin transaction over NFC a while back
544 2011-12-09 12:06:05 <cande> thx
545 2011-12-09 12:08:44 <justmoon> ah I just realized I missed a word there, I meant to say: you have to ask* TD :)
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548 2011-12-09 12:20:09 <cande> right :)
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593 2011-12-09 15:37:26 <Eliel> are there any C/C++ implementations of light bitcoin node?
594 2011-12-09 15:42:21 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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598 2011-12-09 15:54:06 <helo> how light? (not that i know the answer, just curious what you're looking for)
599 2011-12-09 15:55:21 <helo> it would be kind of neat to have a "bitcoin scanner" tool that could be set to monitor certain addresses, either in confirmed blocks or in unconfirmed transactions
600 2011-12-09 15:57:09 <helo> perhaps if you really want to be lightweight (maybe a walletless mobile phone "bitcoin notifier")
601 2011-12-09 15:58:13 <helo> although running a full node in a centralized location and having a secure connection to it is probably still both more lightweight and useful
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604 2011-12-09 16:05:23 <Eliel> I mean a bitcoin client that only downloads blockchain headers and the transactions it needs to spend the bitcoins it has.
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608 2011-12-09 16:11:56 <k9quaint> I have a bitcoin client written in C that says 'Hello World' and little else, is that light enough?
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612 2011-12-09 16:25:29 <luke-jr> sipa: again… proof of payment.
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676 2011-12-09 18:52:06 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * reb1af55df85d gentoo/net-p2p/ (bitcoind/Manifest wxbitcoin/Manifest): Merge branch 'master' into maintree http://tinyurl.com/7aog3yj
677 2011-12-09 18:52:06 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r8fee050a023f gentoo/net-p2p/ (24 files in 5 dirs): net-p2p/{bitcoin-qt,bitcoind,libbitcoin,namecoin,wxbitcoin}: Depend on sys-libs/db with USE=cxx http://tinyurl.com/855thsk
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686 2011-12-09 19:01:52 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * r75adb992c34d gentoo/net-p2p/ (11 files in 3 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into maintree http://tinyurl.com/7wv5pby
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696 2011-12-09 19:18:32 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r061e0081ee47 / (3 files in 2 dirs): Updated kernel for new style network interface. http://tinyurl.com/clv7fz8
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699 2011-12-09 19:21:02 <lianj> why is libbitcoin c++?!
700 2011-12-09 19:22:23 Sedra has joined
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702 2011-12-09 19:23:05 [eval] has joined
703 2011-12-09 19:23:20 <luke-jr> lianj: why not?
704 2011-12-09 19:24:00 <lianj> not as easy to make binding in other languages for it
705 2011-12-09 19:24:06 nathan7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
706 2011-12-09 19:24:07 <[eval]> luke-jr: are you the maintainer of bitcoin-pl on gitorious, and am i correct in reading the license that the code is public domain?
707 2011-12-09 19:24:42 <luke-jr> [eval]: I am not.
708 2011-12-09 19:24:48 Sedra- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
709 2011-12-09 19:25:00 <[eval]> luke-jr: ok, thanks
710 2011-12-09 19:25:05 nathan7_ has joined
711 2011-12-09 19:25:07 <luke-jr> lianj: you mean why is the API C++?
712 2011-12-09 19:25:15 <lianj> yes
713 2011-12-09 19:25:20 <luke-jr> ask genjix
714 2011-12-09 19:25:24 <lianj> hehe
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718 2011-12-09 19:37:07 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rb3b52ee5cd45 gentoo/net-p2p/libbitcoin/ (Manifest libbitcoin-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/libbitcoin: formatting adjustments http://tinyurl.com/7agwp4z
719 2011-12-09 19:41:02 <helo> how's progress with OP_EVAL being included in blocks?
720 2011-12-09 19:42:00 <luke-jr> helo: it will work if you -addnode=relay.eligius.st
721 2011-12-09 19:42:46 <BlueMatt> well while you are custom-building with OP_EVAL might as well add keepnode
722 2011-12-09 19:42:55 <BlueMatt> then you can -keepnode=relay.eligius.st
723 2011-12-09 19:43:21 nathan7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
724 2011-12-09 19:43:59 <[Tycho]> Hello.
725 2011-12-09 19:44:04 <BlueMatt> hi
726 2011-12-09 19:44:49 nathan7_ has joined
727 2011-12-09 19:44:51 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: what is your bitcoin project ?
728 2011-12-09 19:45:09 <BlueMatt> ?
729 2011-12-09 19:45:15 <[Tycho]> Do you have any ?
730 2011-12-09 19:45:23 <BlueMatt> do I have to have a bitcoin project?
731 2011-12-09 19:45:31 <BlueMatt> I work on the main client when I have spare time?
732 2011-12-09 19:45:38 <[Tycho]> Ok.
733 2011-12-09 19:45:46 <BlueMatt> run a dnsseed
734 2011-12-09 19:45:59 <BlueMatt> run jenkins for bitcoind/-qt automated building
735 2011-12-09 19:46:03 <[Tycho]> You are on #bitcoin-dev, so it was possible that you are developing something :)
736 2011-12-09 19:46:07 <BlueMatt> etc
737 2011-12-09 19:46:51 <BlueMatt> bitcoin wallet encryption?
738 2011-12-09 19:49:34 nathan7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
739 2011-12-09 19:49:53 <helo> nice
740 2011-12-09 19:50:17 <[Tycho]> I just noticed that you are not in my list, that's why I asked.
741 2011-12-09 19:50:29 <BlueMatt> list of?
742 2011-12-09 19:50:34 nathan7_ has joined
743 2011-12-09 19:50:46 <[Tycho]> List of bitcoin-related people.
744 2011-12-09 19:51:00 <BlueMatt> mmm
745 2011-12-09 19:52:39 <[Tycho]> So when I see someone on forum or IRC, I check my list to find who is it.
746 2011-12-09 19:53:18 <BlueMatt> mmm
747 2011-12-09 19:57:56 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: BlueMatt likes to consider himself important ;)
748 2011-12-09 19:59:00 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
749 2011-12-09 19:59:49 <BlueMatt> heh, never had enough free time to actually contribute that much...
750 2011-12-09 20:01:14 <midnightmagic> Sweet! Am I on the list too?
751 2011-12-09 20:02:12 <iz> [Tycho]: do you check it twice?
752 2011-12-09 20:02:25 <[Tycho]> midnightmagic: not yet.
753 2011-12-09 20:02:36 <[Tycho]> iz: sure, new year is coming.
754 2011-12-09 20:03:05 * iz suspects you are santa claus
755 2011-12-09 20:03:30 <midnightmagic> Put "Dork responsible for -1 Satoshi in block http://blockexplorer.com/b/124724"
756 2011-12-09 20:03:36 <midnightmagic> next to my name. :)
757 2011-12-09 20:04:05 <[Tycho]> I still have to wait months until my "gifts" will be ready.
758 2011-12-09 20:04:24 <rjk2> \o/
759 2011-12-09 20:04:39 <midnightmagic> =]
760 2011-12-09 20:04:42 <[Tycho]> midnightmagic: -2 Satoshi ?
761 2011-12-09 20:04:58 <rjk2> -1 and a fee right
762 2011-12-09 20:05:13 <BlueMatt> no, blockexplorer displays it wrong
763 2011-12-09 20:05:46 <midnightmagic> -1 in the generation, and I ignored the fees partly because the fees didn't occur to me, and partly because I think the 49.999999 was more obvious that way
764 2011-12-09 20:06:07 <BlueMatt> oh, no its 0.00000001 and 0.01
765 2011-12-09 20:06:21 <midnightmagic> (so in retrospect I would've done it that way on purpose anyway.)
766 2011-12-09 20:06:48 <midnightmagic> It started off as a joke from BlueMatt, who said he was going to race me to do it.
767 2011-12-09 20:07:07 <midnightmagic> And ended up as a tribute to Satoshi. We are minus one  Satoshi, and now the blockchain is too.
768 2011-12-09 20:07:15 <BlueMatt> heh
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780 2011-12-09 20:39:51 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: you're giving us something? :P
781 2011-12-09 20:40:34 <rjk2> lol giving it away would be generous
782 2011-12-09 20:40:48 * rjk2 gets first dibs cause i said so
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786 2011-12-09 20:44:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: don't worry, you're on my (git remote) list ;)
787 2011-12-09 20:46:03 <BlueMatt> heh, I have so many random people on mine that did one-off pull reqs...
788 2011-12-09 20:46:14 <BlueMatt> my list is huge...
789 2011-12-09 20:46:25 <[Tycho]> No, selling it :)
790 2011-12-09 20:47:42 <lianj> oO
791 2011-12-09 20:59:28 marf_away has joined
792 2011-12-09 21:01:44 <[Tycho]> He he he :)
793 2011-12-09 21:03:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I don't add remotes for mere pull requests :P
794 2011-12-09 21:03:43 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: meh whatever
795 2011-12-09 21:03:54 <BlueMatt> Im honored ;)
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802 2011-12-09 21:18:31 <cj> what debian squeeze packages do I need to grab to satisfy bitcoin build deps?
803 2011-12-09 21:19:05 <BlueMatt> look at doc/build-unix.txt
804 2011-12-09 21:19:14 <BlueMatt> there should be an apt-get line that will work 90%
805 2011-12-09 21:19:41 <BlueMatt> just make sure you use libdb4.8++-dev if you want wallet.dat compat with release versions
806 2011-12-09 21:20:30 <cj> oh, look.  there's a contrib/debian
807 2011-12-09 21:20:43 <BlueMatt> if you want a deb package, that will work
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809 2011-12-09 21:29:00 <cj> BlueMatt: looks like you're targeting wheezy, eh?  got a debian/ for squeeze?
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811 2011-12-09 21:29:30 <cjdelisle> I built on lenny/squeeze without too much trouble
812 2011-12-09 21:30:07 <cj> cjdelisle: did you patch debian/control to reference the versions of packages in those dists?
813 2011-12-09 21:30:13 <BlueMatt> cj: targeting ubuntu, not even debian
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815 2011-12-09 21:30:46 <cjdelisle> I actually built with the new libdb so my wallet is not compatable with old versions
816 2011-12-09 21:31:06 <cjdelisle> doesn't bother me that much
817 2011-12-09 21:31:25 <cjdelisle> but the apt command worked pretty much verbadum IIRC
818 2011-12-09 21:31:43 <cj> cjdelisle: okay.  I'll patch control and push it up to my github
819 2011-12-09 21:31:49 <cj> BlueMatt: roger
820 2011-12-09 21:32:01 <cjdelisle> I also did make USE_UPNP=
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822 2011-12-09 21:32:18 <cjdelisle> because my stuff doesn't even support upnp and it was just one more thing
823 2011-12-09 21:32:28 <cjdelisle> I opened the port manually
824 2011-12-09 21:40:00 <cj> cjdelisle: yeah, I saw that I'd need to do that, since there's no libminiupnp in squeeze apparently
825 2011-12-09 21:44:50 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r45198af / src/qt/bitcoingui.cpp : Prevent window from being shown momentarily when using -min ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/45198af2be4e4cf26bf6d751a4bacb564abddb7f
826 2011-12-09 21:44:51 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r189dbde / src/qt/bitcoingui.cpp : Merge pull request #693 from laanwj/min_fix_tmpshow ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/189dbde9827667c8aaf9a25e9e99f0caaf709edb
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866 2011-12-09 23:24:37 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 500 1
867 2011-12-09 23:24:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 500 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 2 hours, 23 minutes, and 9 seconds
868 2011-12-09 23:24:43 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 2000 1
869 2011-12-09 23:24:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 35 minutes and 47 seconds
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