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   7 2011-12-10 00:11:17 <Mad7Scientist> I was sending 8 BTC and it said I needed to pay 0.01 BTC fee because I was over the size limit
   8 2011-12-10 00:11:25 Burgundy has joined
   9 2011-12-10 00:11:29 <Mad7Scientist> but I waited until the next block and there was no fee
  10 2011-12-10 00:11:32 <Mad7Scientist> what happened
  11 2011-12-10 00:12:08 darkskiez_ has joined
  12 2011-12-10 00:12:33 <luke-jr> Mad7Scientist: the coins matured more
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  19 2011-12-10 00:24:06 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 2500 1
  20 2011-12-10 00:24:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2500 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 28 minutes and 37 seconds
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  36 2011-12-10 01:23:23 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * rf63ad9409dd1 / (34 files in 8 dirs): Rename: storage -> blockchain http://tinyurl.com/cxr49p3
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  42 2011-12-10 02:37:44 Nixload has joined
  43 2011-12-10 02:37:51 <Nixload> where I report channel abuse?
  44 2011-12-10 02:38:02 <Nixload> one of your underlings is abusing their power
  45 2011-12-10 02:38:09 <Nixload> and it's not appreciated
  46 2011-12-10 02:38:14 <luke-jr> let me guess, diablo-d3?
  47 2011-12-10 02:39:24 <copumpkin> ?
  48 2011-12-10 02:47:24 <BlueMatt> Nixload: ?
  49 2011-12-10 02:47:32 <gmaxwell> He's upset with me because I punted him in #bitcoin
  50 2011-12-10 02:47:59 <BlueMatt> wat he do?
  51 2011-12-10 02:48:49 <gmaxwell> Nothing paritcularly deserving.
  52 2011-12-10 02:49:11 <BlueMatt> well that seems mean
  53 2011-12-10 02:49:27 <gmaxwell> But he's ranting and threating me in privmsg now ::shrugs:: So it sort of seemed like a good move in hindsight ('the witch! it floats! burn it') :(
  54 2011-12-10 02:51:41 cronopio has quit (Quit: leaving)
  55 2011-12-10 02:51:59 <SomeoneWeird> LOL gmaxwell
  56 2011-12-10 02:53:23 <cjdelisle> one of your underlings <-- heh
  57 2011-12-10 02:56:36 <luke-jr> lol
  58 2011-12-10 02:56:38 <Nixload> yeah way to justify gmaxwell
  59 2011-12-10 02:56:48 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: so you just banned him for nothing?
  60 2011-12-10 02:58:10 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Obviously not. But nor was it anything serious. I would have just undone it shortly after but he was throwing insults and threats before I had a chance ::shrugs::
  61 2011-12-10 02:58:20 <luke-jr> >_<
  62 2011-12-10 02:58:34 <luke-jr> on another note, Bitcoin-Qt runs fine on ARM (Nokia N900)
  63 2011-12-10 02:58:52 <Nixload> was kick+ban over me disagreeing with him
  64 2011-12-10 02:59:03 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: the gui as well?
  65 2011-12-10 02:59:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: yes
  66 2011-12-10 02:59:20 <BlueMatt> nice
  67 2011-12-10 02:59:26 <luke-jr> note that I run Gentoo on it though
  68 2011-12-10 02:59:28 <doublec> the non-gui has run on it for a long time
  69 2011-12-10 02:59:47 <Nixload> i don't care, is whatever, just unfortunate when someone with access abuses their power, I feel it brings the channel down
  70 2011-12-10 03:00:00 <gmaxwell> Nixload: It didn't really have anything to do with a disagreement. ::shrugs:: luke-jr can attest that I disagree with people all the time.
  71 2011-12-10 03:00:16 <Nixload> considering I was in the channel like 2 minutes
  72 2011-12-10 03:00:22 <gmaxwell> I've tried to explain this to you in private. But we're apparently failing to communicate.
  73 2011-12-10 03:00:28 <Nixload> and all of that was having a discussion with you, i'd say it was
  74 2011-12-10 03:00:35 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ah, I thought somehow the nokia os ran the gui...I was very surprised
  75 2011-12-10 03:00:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I don't know why it wouldn't.
  76 2011-12-10 03:00:54 <SomeoneWeird> Nixload, if gmaxwell unbans you will you drop it?
  77 2011-12-10 03:01:00 <SomeoneWeird> we dont need fighing in the -dev channel
  78 2011-12-10 03:01:02 <Nixload> just remove the ban and consider my advice about warnings in pm
  79 2011-12-10 03:01:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: but Nokia abandoned Maemo a long time ago
  80 2011-12-10 03:01:11 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: because the ui is designed for desktops?
  81 2011-12-10 03:01:15 <luke-jr> I vote to keep Nixload banned.
  82 2011-12-10 03:01:15 <Nixload> and quiets, kb is completely unecessary
  83 2011-12-10 03:01:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: so?
  84 2011-12-10 03:01:27 <Nixload> whys that luke
  85 2011-12-10 03:01:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: some reason it wouldn't work on laptops?
  86 2011-12-10 03:01:39 <luke-jr> Nixload: because you're making demands.
  87 2011-12-10 03:01:39 <BlueMatt> I vote that Nixload and gmaxwell deal with their personal problems in pm
  88 2011-12-10 03:01:49 <Nixload> luke so what, i'm not at his mercy
  89 2011-12-10 03:01:50 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: on a phone its a bit different
  90 2011-12-10 03:01:56 <Nixload> he does not have channel access to abuse it
  91 2011-12-10 03:02:01 <Nixload> period
  92 2011-12-10 03:02:07 <gmaxwell> omg .. this is offtopic. please.
  93 2011-12-10 03:02:09 <gmaxwell> jesus.
  94 2011-12-10 03:02:40 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: have you tried on an n900 ?
  95 2011-12-10 03:02:41 <gmaxwell> Nixload: you're already unbanned there, stop spreading the dramaz like a forest fire.
  96 2011-12-10 03:02:56 <[Tycho]> I have n900 somewhere in Russia...
  97 2011-12-10 03:03:11 <Nixload> ty
  98 2011-12-10 03:03:22 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 100 2011-12-10 03:04:35 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: they can fend with their own trolls for a while
 101 2011-12-10 03:05:11 <doublec> mozilla have quite a few n900's they're trying to work out what to do with them now that they don't need them
 102 2011-12-10 03:05:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: N900 isn't a phone.
 103 2011-12-10 03:05:24 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ...?
 104 2011-12-10 03:05:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: N900 is a phone-sized laptop.
 105 2011-12-10 03:05:37 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it runs X11 like any other Linux laptop
 106 2011-12-10 03:05:39 <BlueMatt> uh...ok
 107 2011-12-10 03:05:56 <luke-jr> doublec: I wouldn't mind a spare. :P
 108 2011-12-10 03:06:03 <doublec> luke-jr: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=701784
 109 2011-12-10 03:06:06 <lianj> n900 is the most useful linux phone to date
 110 2011-12-10 03:06:07 <doublec> luke-jr: ask in there
 111 2011-12-10 03:06:09 <rjk2> luke-jr: what is your opinion on some of that small OQO hardware?
 112 2011-12-10 03:06:17 <luke-jr> lianj: except that it's not a phone :P
 113 2011-12-10 03:06:19 <[Tycho]> It's not a laptop, it's handheld.
 114 2011-12-10 03:06:23 <jrmithdobbs> n900 is kind of dumb
 115 2011-12-10 03:06:24 <luke-jr> rjk2: x86 eats power.
 116 2011-12-10 03:06:29 <rjk2> yeah..
 117 2011-12-10 03:06:40 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: yes, but most people aren't familiar with handheld, and laptop is a closer match
 118 2011-12-10 03:06:43 <lianj> luke-jr: you can make calls with it and it fits my hand :D
 119 2011-12-10 03:07:04 <jrmithdobbs> i can do that with my remote
 120 2011-12-10 03:07:05 <BlueMatt> for the record, I ran an X11 server on my iphone...
 121 2011-12-10 03:07:06 <[Tycho]> Usually I keep n770 with me for navigation purposes. n900 is totally useless outside.
 122 2011-12-10 03:07:07 <jrmithdobbs> it's still a remote
 123 2011-12-10 03:07:32 <BlueMatt> so is my iphone a laptop now?
 124 2011-12-10 03:07:38 <jrmithdobbs> apparently
 125 2011-12-10 03:07:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: your iPhone didn't run X11 out of the box :P
 126 2011-12-10 03:07:50 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and it was designed the be a phone
 127 2011-12-10 03:07:52 <luke-jr> and runs a phone OS
 128 2011-12-10 03:08:03 <lianj> and in x11 mode the iphone prolly couldnt make calls
 129 2011-12-10 03:08:05 <BlueMatt> so thats your definition of a laptop vs phone, runs x11 out of the box?
 130 2011-12-10 03:08:05 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: whatever the n900 is it's definitely a great example of failure
 131 2011-12-10 03:08:06 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 132 2011-12-10 03:08:07 <doublec> i like that the n900 has a physical keyboard vs the iphone
 133 2011-12-10 03:08:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, just pointing out big differences
 134 2011-12-10 03:08:17 <[Tycho]> Oh, you are running wrong OS on it. That's sad.
 135 2011-12-10 03:08:18 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: heh
 136 2011-12-10 03:08:22 <luke-jr> people who buy N900 wanting a phone are almost always disappointed.
 137 2011-12-10 03:08:55 <lianj> jrmithdobbs: sure it was a failure. but its still the somewhat most useful linux phone which you dont have to hack hardcore to get your x11
 138 2011-12-10 03:09:18 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: I'm disappointed in n900 for just ONE reason: battery life. It doesn't have it.
 139 2011-12-10 03:09:19 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: yes but why does "useful" need to be modified with "linux" in that sentence in the first place
 140 2011-12-10 03:09:21 <lianj> n900 runs the full chromium :)
 141 2011-12-10 03:09:27 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: because it's far from the most useful phone.
 142 2011-12-10 03:09:57 <jrmithdobbs> the whole concept is just weird
 143 2011-12-10 03:10:07 <[Tycho]> While n770 can live 7 days in standby with one charge.
 144 2011-12-10 03:10:35 <[Tycho]> Who would need a phone/handheld that barely lives one day on a charge ?
 145 2011-12-10 03:10:36 <lianj> it runs a debian without modifing. linux userland. not just the kernel like android crap
 146 2011-12-10 03:10:52 <rjk2> yes nokia in general usually gets battery life right
 147 2011-12-10 03:10:57 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: meh, any phone i have only lives one day :(
 148 2011-12-10 03:11:02 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: my N900 has pretty good battery life.
 149 2011-12-10 03:11:05 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: working in an underground facility sucks
 150 2011-12-10 03:11:19 <rjk2> jrmithdobbs: yeah that will kill it
 151 2011-12-10 03:11:21 <[Tycho]> I can imagine people running bitcoin client on a n900 with stock OS, but not on gentoo.
 152 2011-12-10 03:11:29 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: you work underground?
 153 2011-12-10 03:11:30 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: how much of it ?
 154 2011-12-10 03:11:45 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: ya, we're trying to get them to get some cdma repeaters. we have att extenders that go out our upstream ;p
 155 2011-12-10 03:11:54 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: ?
 156 2011-12-10 03:12:02 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: KDE
 157 2011-12-10 03:12:19 <[Tycho]> And my favorite Windows Mobile 5 phone works two weeks with cellular part disabled.
 158 2011-12-10 03:12:27 <SomeoneWeird> wow
 159 2011-12-10 03:12:29 <luke-jr> N900 works a month offline.
 160 2011-12-10 03:12:38 <BlueMatt> most phones will run forever in airplane mode
 161 2011-12-10 03:12:38 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ya, it's not anything exciting. I went back to a smallish local company because large organizations were driving me crazy
 162 2011-12-10 03:12:42 <luke-jr> but srsly, that's pointless
 163 2011-12-10 03:12:42 <BlueMatt> even my galaxy s ii will
 164 2011-12-10 03:12:42 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: NO WAY.
 165 2011-12-10 03:12:49 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: ?
 166 2011-12-10 03:12:50 <rjk2> a whole month
 167 2011-12-10 03:12:52 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: we just lease the bottom level of the building ;p
 168 2011-12-10 03:12:52 <rjk2> ?
 169 2011-12-10 03:12:56 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: it uses practically no power…
 170 2011-12-10 03:13:05 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: heh
 171 2011-12-10 03:13:21 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it's not really a basement, the building's on the side of a hill type thing (so our datacenter space is up against it)
 172 2011-12-10 03:13:30 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: ah
 173 2011-12-10 03:13:40 <[Tycho]> I use this WM5 communicator as PDA, for mobile excel and scheduling tasks.
 174 2011-12-10 03:13:41 <jrmithdobbs> but as far as cell phone signal is concerned it might as well be
 175 2011-12-10 03:13:51 <BlueMatt> heh
 176 2011-12-10 03:13:57 <rjk2> any good datacenter is well shielded anyway
 177 2011-12-10 03:14:03 <BlueMatt> yep
 178 2011-12-10 03:14:06 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 179 2011-12-10 03:14:12 <jrmithdobbs> ya well, i can't get signal in our offices either
 180 2011-12-10 03:14:18 <jrmithdobbs> i don't mind not having signal in the actual dc ;p
 181 2011-12-10 03:14:23 <rjk2> yeah
 182 2011-12-10 03:14:30 <rjk2> Wilson makes god stuff
 183 2011-12-10 03:14:33 <[Tycho]> Hmm, looks like normally I walk with 4 phones with me :)))
 184 2011-12-10 03:14:34 <rjk2> good*
 185 2011-12-10 03:15:17 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: why
 186 2011-12-10 03:15:26 <jrmithdobbs> just buy one good one
 187 2011-12-10 03:15:29 somuchwin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 188 2011-12-10 03:15:35 somuchwin has joined
 189 2011-12-10 03:15:54 <rjk2> one for cdma, one for gsm, one for wi-fi, and one for wi-max? :P
 190 2011-12-10 03:15:55 <gmaxwell> One for KGB, one for the broker, one for the spouse, one for ???
 191 2011-12-10 03:16:01 <rjk2> hahah
 192 2011-12-10 03:16:10 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: WM5 for PDA and 3G tasks, n770 for navigation, Sony-Ericsson for calling and a satellite phone.
 193 2011-12-10 03:16:31 <BlueMatt> you walk around with a satphone?
 194 2011-12-10 03:16:44 <rjk2> they are smaller these days i guess
 195 2011-12-10 03:16:59 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: only in strange places and suspicious times.
 196 2011-12-10 03:17:18 <[Tycho]> A couple of months ago I got an LG WM7 phone, it has the best user interface ever.
 197 2011-12-10 03:17:27 <gmaxwell> yea. I had one at work that looked like a startac with cancer.
 198 2011-12-10 03:17:32 <jrmithdobbs> why do you need so many phones
 199 2011-12-10 03:17:39 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: why do you need a satphone?
 200 2011-12-10 03:17:40 <[Tycho]> But not really suits me because there is no way to get under the hood
 201 2011-12-10 03:18:06 <jrmithdobbs> under the hood of what
 202 2011-12-10 03:18:24 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
 203 2011-12-10 03:18:27 <lianj> maybe they transform into a notebook for working :)
 204 2011-12-10 03:18:29 <jrmithdobbs> their sdk and such is available ... ?
 205 2011-12-10 03:18:50 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: some places don't have GSM coverage and sometimes GSM can be suppresed/switched off my government or by natural disaster.
 206 2011-12-10 03:19:05 <[Tycho]> *by
 207 2011-12-10 03:19:10 * luke-jr hates phones.
 208 2011-12-10 03:19:16 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: how many times in your life have you needed that satphone?
 209 2011-12-10 03:19:36 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: I just answered a couple of minutes ago.
 210 2011-12-10 03:19:49 <jrmithdobbs> your answer doesn't make sense
 211 2011-12-10 03:20:08 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: I think about ~7-10 times. Not counting satellite modem usage.
 212 2011-12-10 03:20:13 <jrmithdobbs> why do you need 3 different devices to do that
 213 2011-12-10 03:20:13 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: why ?
 214 2011-12-10 03:20:27 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: because there is no single device that can do all of that.
 215 2011-12-10 03:20:28 <jrmithdobbs> i do all of the above on one
 216 2011-12-10 03:20:34 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: what kind of speed do you get on the sat modem?
 217 2011-12-10 03:20:35 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: what kind of satphone do you have?
 218 2011-12-10 03:21:05 <[Tycho]> Also I just hate that they don't make devices with transflective displays anymore :(
 219 2011-12-10 03:21:38 <jrmithdobbs> would you also like for us to get off your lawn, sir?
 220 2011-12-10 03:21:48 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 221 2011-12-10 03:21:51 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: I don't download anything, so can't say for sure. Used only for SSH and couple of webpages.
 222 2011-12-10 03:22:56 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: last time I used satphone for calling and SMS ~1 one month ago in Singapore because I didn't had local GSM SIM card.
 223 2011-12-10 03:23:20 <BlueMatt> mmm, well I guess for traveling it would be nice
 224 2011-12-10 03:23:50 <[Tycho]> But it's good to have even if not needed before. Because when disaster hits it will be too late to buy :)
 225 2011-12-10 03:24:01 rlifchitz has joined
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 228 2011-12-10 03:24:15 * luke-jr bets sat phone goes down when disaster hits too
 229 2011-12-10 03:24:24 <rjk2> are there any standardized mini-pci cards that do sattelite?
 230 2011-12-10 03:24:29 <[Tycho]> In Hong Kong city it was very hard to get a signal because of all those skyscrapers.
 231 2011-12-10 03:24:44 <[Tycho]> rjk2: no, but there are small OEM boards.
 232 2011-12-10 03:24:55 <rjk2> what interface
 233 2011-12-10 03:24:57 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: depends on the disaster.
 234 2011-12-10 03:25:08 <[Tycho]> rjk2: RS-232, I suppose. May be USB.
 235 2011-12-10 03:25:14 <[Tycho]> I don't like USB.
 236 2011-12-10 03:25:21 <rjk2> usb is annoying
 237 2011-12-10 03:25:24 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: I don't have any lawn.
 238 2011-12-10 03:25:30 <rjk2> heh
 239 2011-12-10 03:25:33 <jrmithdobbs> i was calling you old
 240 2011-12-10 03:25:39 <jrmithdobbs> and grumpy
 241 2011-12-10 03:26:13 <luke-jr> FWIW, I'll be developing for my BitForce tonight or tomorrow
 242 2011-12-10 03:26:19 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: I tried both Android and the latest WIndows Phone. Turned out to be not suitable.
 243 2011-12-10 03:26:33 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: webOS?
 244 2011-12-10 03:26:38 <[Tycho]> No.
 245 2011-12-10 03:26:41 <luke-jr> HP just announced they're opening it
 246 2011-12-10 03:26:50 <luke-jr> AND continuign to develop it
 247 2011-12-10 03:26:50 <rjk2> orly
 248 2011-12-10 03:26:55 <rjk2> link?
 249 2011-12-10 03:27:03 <[Tycho]> You won't agree with me, but Android looked most useless for me :)
 250 2011-12-10 03:27:10 <luke-jr> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2011/111209xa.html?
 251 2011-12-10 03:27:19 <luke-jr> no, I agree Android sucks
 252 2011-12-10 03:27:44 <[Tycho]> The best user interface for plain people is Metro (Windows Phone). It's real BREAKTHROUGH.
 253 2011-12-10 03:27:55 <[Tycho]> (Well, except some stupid flaws)
 254 2011-12-10 03:28:01 <jrmithdobbs> lol
 255 2011-12-10 03:28:04 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: what about it?
 256 2011-12-10 03:28:07 <[Tycho]> And the windows phone itself.
 257 2011-12-10 03:28:10 <rjk2> ...liek that its windows?
 258 2011-12-10 03:28:13 <luke-jr> yay for interfaces being uncopyrightable.
 259 2011-12-10 03:28:13 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: what ?
 260 2011-12-10 03:28:14 <jrmithdobbs> "hi we bought this for the revolution and failed here do something with it thanks"
 261 2011-12-10 03:28:24 <jrmithdobbs> hp needs to finish imploding already
 262 2011-12-10 03:28:43 <gmaxwell> rjk2: for data you'd usually use a small (fits in a briefcase but barely) geosync terminal.
 263 2011-12-10 03:28:57 <gmaxwell> rjk2: the LEO stuff used for phones has outragiously expensive data rates.
 264 2011-12-10 03:29:23 <[Tycho]> I just remember Microsoft's future vision from 2009 and this Windows Phone interface clearly fits it.
 265 2011-12-10 03:29:33 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: no, HP is continuing to develop it.
 266 2011-12-10 03:29:41 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: some patterns fail to repeat.
 267 2011-12-10 03:29:44 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: and webOS is at least better than Android.
 268 2011-12-10 03:30:02 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: so what's so good about the UI?
 269 2011-12-10 03:30:07 <jrmithdobbs> nothing
 270 2011-12-10 03:30:21 <[Tycho]> rjk2: I used RBGAN as sat data terminal. It's much smaller than briefcase.
 271 2011-12-10 03:30:41 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: I think that telling about interface is nowhere close to trying it.
 272 2011-12-10 03:30:57 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: better than nothing; I sure as heck won't touch a WP
 273 2011-12-10 03:31:14 <[Tycho]> So I mostly bought it to play because it was almost fist time to see it in reality.
 274 2011-12-10 03:31:47 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: I would recommend at least touching it at the store.
 275 2011-12-10 03:31:55 <[Tycho]> It's WORTH trying.
 276 2011-12-10 03:32:08 <luke-jr> what store?
 277 2011-12-10 03:32:16 <BlueMatt> best buy?
 278 2011-12-10 03:32:16 <jrmithdobbs> you think wm5 is usuable though ..
 279 2011-12-10 03:32:19 <[Tycho]> I'll repeat - it's the best "plain people" interface that I ever saw.
 280 2011-12-10 03:32:25 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: yea, I used a BGAN terminal before .. it had integrated wifi.. which was interesting.
 281 2011-12-10 03:32:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: haven't seen one here
 282 2011-12-10 03:32:41 <gmaxwell> So you could toss it out on a balcony and not fuss with cables.
 283 2011-12-10 03:33:03 <luke-jr> I guess there's one down in Wesley Chapel :/
 284 2011-12-10 03:33:10 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: why not ? I use spb_diary thing that replaces today screen, MSH keyboard and excel for data. Perfectly usable.
 285 2011-12-10 03:33:20 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: a best buy?
 286 2011-12-10 03:33:30 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: any store/shop that let's people touch phones.
 287 2011-12-10 03:33:33 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: yes
 288 2011-12-10 03:33:39 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: haven't seen any.
 289 2011-12-10 03:34:12 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: try other countries.
 290 2011-12-10 03:34:49 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I won't touch other countries.
 291 2011-12-10 03:34:54 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 292 2011-12-10 03:35:02 <[Tycho]> Other countries are cool.
 293 2011-12-10 03:35:05 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I thought you were in the us, how have you never seen a best buy?
 294 2011-12-10 03:35:07 [7] has joined
 295 2011-12-10 03:35:09 <[Tycho]> Well, warm in this case.
 296 2011-12-10 03:35:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not around here.
 297 2011-12-10 03:35:25 <BlueMatt> wtf?
 298 2011-12-10 03:35:25 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: says bluetooth not wifi. nifty device
 299 2011-12-10 03:35:32 <BlueMatt> they're everywhere around here
 300 2011-12-10 03:35:42 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bestbuystoremap.png
 301 2011-12-10 03:35:58 <[Tycho]> I never saw a "Best Buy" too.
 302 2011-12-10 03:36:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: mmm
 303 2011-12-10 03:36:12 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: you live in a third world country tho
 304 2011-12-10 03:36:16 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I'm pretty sure the one I used had wifi, — there are several different makers of BGAN terminals.
 305 2011-12-10 03:36:16 <BlueMatt> well look at you and your fancy store maps
 306 2011-12-10 03:36:28 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ah
 307 2011-12-10 03:37:00 <[Tycho]> Surprisingly, in 3rd world country I get much better service for same bucks :)
 308 2011-12-10 03:37:22 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: not so surprising
 309 2011-12-10 03:38:09 <[Tycho]> Have to wait here because there is winter in my country.
 310 2011-12-10 03:38:17 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh nifty, they make some that can auto track and be installed on cars
 311 2011-12-10 03:38:21 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: friend of mine was selling the state department these go-kit boxes which were basically asterisk + webcache + sat terminal + ap + ton of wifi cordless phones in a box. Pull the terminal out, stick it outside. bam. phone service for 10 people plus internet.
 312 2011-12-10 03:38:52 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: looks like a little round pizza delivery sign thing, ha
 313 2011-12-10 03:39:21 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: they don't tend to work really well in city enviroments, too much multipath.
 314 2011-12-10 03:39:53 <jrmithdobbs> probably don't even want to see data rates anyways
 315 2011-12-10 03:39:53 <jrmithdobbs> ha
 316 2011-12-10 03:39:57 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: that was the problem in HK. Well, not multipath, but the lack of clear sky view :)
 317 2011-12-10 03:40:15 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it's pricy but not completely insane.
 318 2011-12-10 03:40:29 <[Tycho]> With RBGAN in some places I had to care about nearby mountains too.
 319 2011-12-10 03:40:39 <gmaxwell> Some of the higher speed services get pretty costly.
 320 2011-12-10 03:41:10 <jrmithdobbs> oh wow, unlimited voice through globalstar is just $20
 321 2011-12-10 03:41:23 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: there is a reason for that.
 322 2011-12-10 03:42:06 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: do you hate Microsoft ?
 323 2011-12-10 03:42:14 <cjdelisle> that's a nice number, with a number like that who needs GSM
 324 2011-12-10 03:42:37 <[Tycho]> cjdelisle: may be those who want to call from buildings :)
 325 2011-12-10 03:42:50 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: yes.
 326 2011-12-10 03:43:09 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I hate Deepbit too. ;)
 327 2011-12-10 03:43:31 <[Tycho]> Deepbit is the opposite of evil.
 328 2011-12-10 03:43:51 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: take a look at Microsoft's future vision 2009
 329 2011-12-10 03:44:14 <luke-jr> never heard of it
 330 2011-12-10 03:44:26 <[Tycho]> It's on youtube.
 331 2011-12-10 03:44:39 <[Tycho]> They show out future.
 332 2011-12-10 03:44:43 <[Tycho]> *our
 333 2011-12-10 03:45:08 <[Tycho]> Also I don't like capacitive touchscreens.
 334 2011-12-10 03:45:14 osmosis has joined
 335 2011-12-10 03:45:36 <cjdelisle> I hope it doesn't involve everybody encrypting data to send it across the pci bus.
 336 2011-12-10 03:46:05 <cjdelisle> because otherwise someone might back up a dvd legally...
 337 2011-12-10 03:46:23 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: what don't you like about capacitive touchscreens? functional tracking?
 338 2011-12-10 03:46:26 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I hate capacitive, but good luck finding something else
 339 2011-12-10 03:47:01 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: poor accuracy, requires large expensive stylus
 340 2011-12-10 03:47:12 <jrmithdobbs> sty...what
 341 2011-12-10 03:47:36 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: 1) They don't allow me to use nails for pointing to small controls, 2) ENORMOUS buttons that cause low information density, 3) doesn't works with gloves.
 342 2011-12-10 03:47:52 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 343 2011-12-10 03:48:08 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: 1) so 2) you're doing it wrong 3) there are cheap gloves that fix this
 344 2011-12-10 03:48:13 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: no u
 345 2011-12-10 03:48:14 <[Tycho]> cjdelisle: it's a good kind of future.
 346 2011-12-10 03:48:38 <jrmithdobbs> also stop living places that require owning gloves
 347 2011-12-10 03:48:44 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: it's not me doing it wrong. It's interface designers.
 348 2011-12-10 03:49:11 <jrmithdobbs> also cut your nails you dirty hippy
 349 2011-12-10 03:49:12 <[Tycho]> I don't like cheap gloves. Also I like living in different places.
 350 2011-12-10 03:49:18 <cjdelisle> The only thing I like about microsoft is they are not peddling tethered "devices" which you don't really own.
 351 2011-12-10 03:49:23 <[Tycho]> And don't tell me what to do :)
 352 2011-12-10 03:49:29 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 353 2011-12-10 03:49:42 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: Make me a sandwich.
 354 2011-12-10 03:49:54 <[Tycho]> Gloves are used not only for warmth, but for protection too.
 355 2011-12-10 03:49:57 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: xkcd.
 356 2011-12-10 03:50:15 <gmaxwell> sudo make sandwich
 357 2011-12-10 03:50:17 <jrmithdobbs> stop doing manual labor
 358 2011-12-10 03:50:28 <[Tycho]> It's not labor, it's travel.
 359 2011-12-10 03:50:43 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: helps avoid powder burns
 360 2011-12-10 03:50:59 <[Tycho]> Sure.
 361 2011-12-10 03:51:30 Firefly007 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 362 2011-12-10 03:51:43 <[Tycho]> "luke-jr: [Tycho]: I hate capacitive, but good luck finding something else" - I did. It's n900 :)
 363 2011-12-10 03:51:58 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: N900 is basically obsolete now.
 364 2011-12-10 03:51:58 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: hahahda
 365 2011-12-10 03:52:16 <[Tycho]> Capacitive screens also force GUI developers to make onscreen keyboards not supporting gestures :(
 366 2011-12-10 03:53:24 Maged has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 367 2011-12-10 03:53:45 <luke-jr> OSK suck
 368 2011-12-10 03:53:54 <[Tycho]> I like using gestures when typing on onscreen keyboards.
 369 2011-12-10 03:53:55 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
 370 2011-12-10 03:53:55 Maged has joined
 371 2011-12-10 03:54:10 dissipate_ has joined
 372 2011-12-10 03:54:19 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: huh? there are lots of gestures used on capacitive devices
 373 2011-12-10 03:54:23 <jrmithdobbs> are you on crack?
 374 2011-12-10 03:54:24 Workbench has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 375 2011-12-10 03:54:41 <luke-jr> I think I found an interesting bug in bitcoind.
 376 2011-12-10 03:54:48 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: are you a developer ?
 377 2011-12-10 03:55:05 <jrmithdobbs> physical keyboards are dead
 378 2011-12-10 03:55:26 <jrmithdobbs> it's like watching two guys talk about betamax in ~2001
 379 2011-12-10 03:55:27 Workbench has joined
 380 2011-12-10 03:55:31 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: no basic gestures are supported at least by default in iPhone and WindowsPhone. I think same is with Android.
 381 2011-12-10 03:55:44 <SomeoneWeird> iphone has gestures?
 382 2011-12-10 03:56:08 <luke-jr> not sure this bug is in master anymore tho
 383 2011-12-10 03:56:17 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: google swype for *exactly* what you're talking about, but saying that iphone nor android include gestures is just dumb even if they're not used for the keyboard
 384 2011-12-10 03:56:17 <luke-jr> it seems the ScanHash_CryptoPP function is not thread-safe
 385 2011-12-10 03:56:21 <[Tycho]> "physical keyboards are dead" ? Oh, thinking like this may be you even own an iPad, lol ? :)
 386 2011-12-10 03:56:41 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: they're dead on phones
 387 2011-12-10 03:56:47 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: phones are dead.
 388 2011-12-10 03:56:48 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: I'm talking specifically about keyboards.
 389 2011-12-10 03:57:23 <jrmithdobbs> also, capacitive displays have nothing to do with input support for gestures
 390 2011-12-10 03:57:31 <jrmithdobbs> nothing.
 391 2011-12-10 03:57:35 <[Tycho]> Also, for me any phone is useless for talking if it doesn't have full numeric keyboard.
 392 2011-12-10 03:58:32 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: I know. But "stock" keyboards of iPhone and WM7 (at least) don't support even the most needed gestures.
 393 2011-12-10 03:58:35 <jrmithdobbs> and neither iphone nor winmo or w/e it's name is this week include gesture input because we've known since the newton/palm how horrible it is
 394 2011-12-10 03:59:06 <luke-jr> nm
 395 2011-12-10 03:59:06 JFK911 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 396 2011-12-10 03:59:07 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: are you talking about handwriting recognition ?  I'm not.
 397 2011-12-10 03:59:12 JFK911 has joined
 398 2011-12-10 03:59:12 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: if multitouch counts as a gesture (and it should) they most certainly do support the one *necessary* one
 399 2011-12-10 03:59:28 <luke-jr> capacitive has to do with poor accuracy and poor input device support.
 400 2011-12-10 03:59:47 <luke-jr> resistive is better in every way.
 401 2011-12-10 04:00:33 <[Tycho]> Necessary ones are: swipe up for capital letter, swipe left for backspace, diagonally for alternative char, down for Enter, right for space.
 402 2011-12-10 04:00:33 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: and by multitouch i mean multiple simultaneous point recoginition, eg, pushing shift and hitting a letter
 403 2011-12-10 04:01:03 <[Tycho]> I don't like pushing shift if I can just touch a letter and swipe it up :)
 404 2011-12-10 04:01:13 <jrmithdobbs> no those are horrible work arounds for bad OSKs why would you consider those necessary
 405 2011-12-10 04:01:27 <jrmithdobbs> you have horrible inclinations for UIs
 406 2011-12-10 04:01:31 dissipate_ has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 407 2011-12-10 04:01:48 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: capacitive is good for page swiping :) Only.
 408 2011-12-10 04:02:02 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: all of those can be done with capacitive
 409 2011-12-10 04:02:13 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: Ok, let's say that you are wrong, I'm right and end this discussion.
 410 2011-12-10 04:02:25 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: mostly. But they don't do it.
 411 2011-12-10 04:02:37 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: except that everyone's stopping manufacturing this supposedly superior product that you are touting
 412 2011-12-10 04:02:47 <jrmithdobbs> obviously you are in a very small minory with these beliefs.
 413 2011-12-10 04:03:06 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: because marketting hypes "capacitive" as if it's a good thing
 414 2011-12-10 04:03:08 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: because they have to support low-precision finger pointing :)
 415 2011-12-10 04:03:17 dissipate has joined
 416 2011-12-10 04:03:17 dissipate has quit (Changing host)
 417 2011-12-10 04:03:17 dissipate has joined
 418 2011-12-10 04:03:27 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: resistive is capable of that too
 419 2011-12-10 04:03:28 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 420 2011-12-10 04:03:35 <luke-jr> there's even multitouch resistive now
 421 2011-12-10 04:03:43 <luke-jr> but the marketting people are jerks
 422 2011-12-10 04:03:57 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: no because they've been accurate enough for ~4 years now and people like you and tycho keep pretending we're still stuck with iphone1 era capacitive panels
 423 2011-12-10 04:04:00 <jrmithdobbs> but w/e
 424 2011-12-10 04:04:11 <jrmithdobbs> wasted enough finger movement on this topic ;p
 425 2011-12-10 04:04:37 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: accurate enough means I can use a stylus to tap within 16 pixels, and use pressure to draw thicker lines
 426 2011-12-10 04:04:45 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: I don't care about other people's thoughts on what is good and what is "old". I'm just using what I like.
 427 2011-12-10 04:04:52 skeledrew has joined
 428 2011-12-10 04:05:13 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: that kind of accuracy isn't necessary on a phone if the ui isn't awful
 429 2011-12-10 04:05:22 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: phones are for idiots.
 430 2011-12-10 04:05:29 <[Tycho]> But it's sad that they don't install good screens in portable devices anymore :(
 431 2011-12-10 04:05:29 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: taht kind of stuff is what dedicated stylus/pad is for
 432 2011-12-10 04:05:39 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: I don't want to carry aroudn something else
 433 2011-12-10 04:06:15 <[Tycho]> Also I really HATE interfaces with insanely low information density.
 434 2011-12-10 04:06:23 <[Tycho]> Like iOS or new mtgox.
 435 2011-12-10 04:06:47 <[Tycho]> I want to see everything at once, in one screen.
 436 2011-12-10 04:08:29 <[Tycho]> Oh, it's weekend again... Not the best time for it :(
 437 2011-12-10 04:09:10 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 438 2011-12-10 04:10:57 <gmaxwell> +1 on the hate for low density.
 439 2011-12-10 04:11:50 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: i do think that coupling presure sensors with capacitive could lead to interesting things
 440 2011-12-10 04:12:14 <rjk2> i wish folks would make high pixel density screens again :(
 441 2011-12-10 04:12:25 <rjk2> at a reasonable price
 442 2011-12-10 04:12:33 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: i could see the level of differentiation of the older ~32-64 point wacom tablets on phones ... anything as sensitive as the newer stuff would be over kill for that kindo f device though
 443 2011-12-10 04:12:51 <[Tycho]> I would like to have high-resolution screen on a notebook.
 444 2011-12-10 04:12:54 <jrmithdobbs> being useful, i mean
 445 2011-12-10 04:13:03 <gmaxwell> rjk2: Here is where I make you cry. http://www.screentekinc.com/IBM_ThinkPad_R50P--15-inch--2048x1536-qxga-laptop-lcd-screen.shtml
 446 2011-12-10 04:13:08 <[Tycho]> ~800 px height is a shame
 447 2011-12-10 04:13:41 <[Tycho]> Sony makes 1920x1080 at ~13", but it's too thin.
 448 2011-12-10 04:13:44 <gmaxwell> See that?  That was the future. Too bad they don't make the future anymore.  Now the future is in the past.
 449 2011-12-10 04:13:53 <rjk2> ...wat... is that the same resolution as my 23' screen
 450 2011-12-10 04:14:02 <rjk2> yes it is
 451 2011-12-10 04:14:04 <rjk2> the fuckers
 452 2011-12-10 04:14:19 <gmaxwell> rjk2: yes, your 23' screen which is _already_ atypically high resolution.
 453 2011-12-10 04:14:24 <rjk2> yes it is
 454 2011-12-10 04:14:37 <[Tycho]> 1080 may be suitable for a notebook, but not acceptable for a desktop.
 455 2011-12-10 04:14:50 <gmaxwell> Not because we can't build it but because grandma doesn't want her 1080p hdtv movies showing up 'small'.
 456 2011-12-10 04:14:58 <[Tycho]> MOST modern desktop monitors have insanely low vertical pixel count.
 457 2011-12-10 04:15:04 <rjk2> i don't understand thie bullshit about a 60" plasma having 1080 and being "HD"
 458 2011-12-10 04:15:18 <jrmithdobbs> man i remember being excited about the first monitor i had that i could trick into barely doing 1024x768@60Hz even though it was out of spec
 459 2011-12-10 04:15:24 <gmaxwell> rjk2: that laptop screen was made by the same team that made the T221 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_T220/T221_LCD_monitors)
 460 2011-12-10 04:15:25 <OneFixt> rjk2: it's cheaper to use tv screens for monitors
 461 2011-12-10 04:15:31 <BlueMatt> yea any screen >23" with @1920x1080 isnt hd anymore
 462 2011-12-10 04:15:35 <[Tycho]> I can't use desktop with less than 1200 px height :)
 463 2011-12-10 04:15:42 <OneFixt> so they just all them "hd" and neglect to mention that it's lower than standard computer resolutions
 464 2011-12-10 04:15:56 <rjk2> my 17" laptop is 1920x1200, but they don't make that panel anymore
 465 2011-12-10 04:16:02 <rjk2> that i know of
 466 2011-12-10 04:16:11 <rjk2> nice vertical res
 467 2011-12-10 04:16:22 <[Tycho]> They have two "labels" - "HD ready" and "Full HD". It's 720p and 1080p.
 468 2011-12-10 04:16:25 <BlueMatt> almost 4k @22 in in 2001???
 469 2011-12-10 04:16:31 * BlueMatt commits suicide
 470 2011-12-10 04:16:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: and now only available on ebay.
 471 2011-12-10 04:16:43 <rjk2> but is it though?
 472 2011-12-10 04:16:49 <[Tycho]> Professional monitors are still available with 1600x1200 and 1920x1200
 473 2011-12-10 04:16:49 <gmaxwell> They're beautiful (though have a poor refresh rate.. only 48hz)
 474 2011-12-10 04:16:50 <jrmithdobbs> i dunno 11' @ 1366x768  works for me
 475 2011-12-10 04:17:03 <rjk2> who needs a refresh rate when all you need is density
 476 2011-12-10 04:17:08 <gmaxwell> rjk2: agreed.
 477 2011-12-10 04:17:28 <BlueMatt> unless you are gaming, that kind of desnsity is worth like 15Hz refresh rate
 478 2011-12-10 04:17:30 <gmaxwell> So— you can find some of those qxga panels on surplus.. and I found someone that made a dvi driver board for them.
 479 2011-12-10 04:17:44 <jrmithdobbs> haha
 480 2011-12-10 04:17:49 <jrmithdobbs> that's dedication
 481 2011-12-10 04:18:09 <gmaxwell> Contemplated building a briefcase 'laptop' using two of them. :)
 482 2011-12-10 04:18:14 <rjk2> wonder if you could make a business of retrofitting old t-series notebooks with modern procs
 483 2011-12-10 04:18:26 <jrmithdobbs> can you really not buy standard 1920x1200 or similar monitors?
 484 2011-12-10 04:18:33 <OneFixt> dell makes some
 485 2011-12-10 04:18:42 <rjk2> not that i can find for less than 24" or so
 486 2011-12-10 04:18:50 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: only at large sizes.
 487 2011-12-10 04:18:54 <jrmithdobbs> crazy
 488 2011-12-10 04:19:02 <jrmithdobbs> i haven't looked in quite a while
 489 2011-12-10 04:19:11 <gmaxwell> And nothing has really advanced beyond what we had in 2002 or so.
 490 2011-12-10 04:19:22 <jrmithdobbs> i just use tvs at this point tbqh
 491 2011-12-10 04:19:51 <gmaxwell> E.g. no affordable 2/4k pixel tall displays have ever been built, though they clearly could be.
 492 2011-12-10 04:20:23 <OneFixt> perhaps we'll get something nice when OLED enters the mainstream
 493 2011-12-10 04:20:55 <gmaxwell> doubt it, there just isn't a market for it.
 494 2011-12-10 04:21:07 <gmaxwell> esp since windows _still_ has crap for resolution independance.
 495 2011-12-10 04:21:12 <BlueMatt> probably not, as was already put, grandma doesnt want here videos to look small on here screen
 496 2011-12-10 04:21:46 <rjk2> all the panel designers eyes are going bad on them
 497 2011-12-10 04:21:53 <gmaxwell> It used to be that 1600x1200 displays were costly becase all the normal windows users didn't want to ues beyond 800x600 because it made everything tiny.. same thing today, except the new resolution is ~1920x1080.
 498 2011-12-10 04:22:40 <rjk2> some new phones are getting up there in the density department, but only on tiny overall dimensions
 499 2011-12-10 04:22:53 <rjk2> wonder if we could bribe a panel maker
 500 2011-12-10 04:23:02 <gmaxwell> Also, a lot of the competition has been for brightness/contrast/refresh reat.. none of which promote super high density.
 501 2011-12-10 04:23:13 <gmaxwell> s/reat/rat/e
 502 2011-12-10 04:23:18 <rjk2> 100,000:1 !!!!
 503 2011-12-10 04:23:34 <rjk2> wait that's "low" these days
 504 2011-12-10 04:23:38 <OneFixt> is that the new bitcoinica leverage?
 505 2011-12-10 04:23:42 <rjk2> heh
 506 2011-12-10 04:23:47 <BlueMatt> wow, thats depressing highest newegg sells is 2560x1600...
 507 2011-12-10 04:23:58 <rjk2> yeah, and its 30 inches
 508 2011-12-10 04:24:07 <[Tycho]> Narrow panels are much cheaper to produce.
 509 2011-12-10 04:24:14 <gmaxwell> rjk2: yea.. 10zillion to 1 which we then then feed 24-bpp images into.
 510 2011-12-10 04:24:24 <[Tycho]> That's why marketing forced everyone into "hd".
 511 2011-12-10 04:24:30 <BlueMatt> rjk2: no its 10 billion : 1 (they just forgot to mention that they turned the backlight and room lights off before measuring black, and turned a spotlight on before measuring white)
 512 2011-12-10 04:24:41 <rjk2> heh yea
 513 2011-12-10 04:25:05 <[Tycho]> I hate LCD technology for being unable to show black color.
 514 2011-12-10 04:25:13 <BlueMatt> led ftw
 515 2011-12-10 04:25:20 <rjk2> even then
 516 2011-12-10 04:25:28 <rjk2> oled is more like it though
 517 2011-12-10 04:25:45 <[Tycho]> I tried the best ones, but still no black :(
 518 2011-12-10 04:25:51 <BlueMatt> not led backlight, led
 519 2011-12-10 04:26:03 <gmaxwell> Anything far beyond 1500:1 is kinda pointless— 8 bit per color component only has about 10 bits of dynamic range. (e.g. when correctly displayed the highest value should only be ~1024x brighter than one higher than the darkest value)
 520 2011-12-10 04:27:42 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: think they have problems making bigger panels with some of those super high densities
 521 2011-12-10 04:27:59 RobinPKR_ has joined
 522 2011-12-10 04:28:13 <rjk2> yea, dead pixels are more common
 523 2011-12-10 04:28:35 <rjk2> but i can't help but wonder whether that could be improved with recent tech
 524 2011-12-10 04:29:06 <jrmithdobbs> noone's really working on it apparently
 525 2011-12-10 04:29:50 RobinPKR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 526 2011-12-10 04:29:51 RobinPKR_ is now known as RobinPKR
 527 2011-12-10 04:29:59 <rjk2> wonder if the smartphone screen makers still use blanks that are the size of TV blanks
 528 2011-12-10 04:30:17 <rjk2> or not "still" but you know what i mean
 529 2011-12-10 04:30:54 <gmaxwell> I'd take some dead pixels (esp if they were dead-off) in exchange for improved density.
 530 2011-12-10 04:31:10 * BlueMatt agrees
 531 2011-12-10 04:31:30 <rjk2> i'm not sure that "blanks" is the right term, but HD TV makers get 8 screens per sheet of glass, and i wonder if they use the same size sheet for phone screens
 532 2011-12-10 04:31:43 <gmaxwell> though I have a dead on white pixel on this screen and I never notice it..
 533 2011-12-10 04:31:45 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: i'd guess they do
 534 2011-12-10 04:32:14 <gmaxwell> though this one is somewhat high density.. 1400x1050 in 12"
 535 2011-12-10 04:32:21 <rjk2> i had a white stuck pixel, but i was able to massage it and make it go dimmer
 536 2011-12-10 04:32:47 <rjk2> what device has that density gmaxwell
 537 2011-12-10 04:33:02 <gmaxwell> oh. hm. maybe its 13"..
 538 2011-12-10 04:33:21 <gmaxwell> no no 12.1”. Yes.
 539 2011-12-10 04:33:36 <rjk2> older notebook?
 540 2011-12-10 04:33:36 <gmaxwell> rjk2: thinkpad x61 with the special SIPS screen.
 541 2011-12-10 04:33:39 <gmaxwell> yea.
 542 2011-12-10 04:33:41 <rjk2> oh nice
 543 2011-12-10 04:33:45 <rjk2> x61 is still good
 544 2011-12-10 04:34:01 <rjk2> is that a p4 or a core duo
 545 2011-12-10 04:34:15 <gmaxwell> It's fine, but mine is getting old and worn. My GF had one too and hers is basically dead.
 546 2011-12-10 04:34:30 <gmaxwell> rjk2: core2 duo in fact L7500
 547 2011-12-10 04:34:37 <rjk2> oh nice
 548 2011-12-10 04:34:49 <gmaxwell> which is all I really need.. I don't want anything faster (though I wouldn't refuse it)
 549 2011-12-10 04:34:56 coblee_ has joined
 550 2011-12-10 04:35:28 <gmaxwell> my backlights are starting to get a bit dim though. replacing them is a pain.. (I've already replaced the keyboard and hinge)
 551 2011-12-10 04:35:37 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: seems apple just happens to have stayed (relatively) dense on the panels they used compared to everyone else is why i hadn't noticed this
 552 2011-12-10 04:35:49 <rjk2> brb, upgrading ram
 553 2011-12-10 04:36:09 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i hadn't noticed this was going on until this conversation tonight but you're right, it's kind of crazy
 554 2011-12-10 04:36:12 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yes, apple has... though it's not great there either, just the 'best' of a bad bunch.
 555 2011-12-10 04:36:50 <gmaxwell> less market pressure to stay with low res displays, their software is more resolution independant, and when it isn't they can fix it.
 556 2011-12-10 04:36:52 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: well, i like 11"-12" form factors so i don't expect much more that 1400ish x 800ish ;p
 557 2011-12-10 04:37:07 <jrmithdobbs> s/that/than/
 558 2011-12-10 04:37:31 coblee has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 559 2011-12-10 04:37:32 coblee_ is now known as coblee
 560 2011-12-10 04:37:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya, 99% of their widgets and shit are vectorized not bitmaps and have been since ~2001
 561 2011-12-10 04:38:00 <gmaxwell> ugh. too small. I love my 12.1" 1400x1050 .. but felt it was a step down from the 14.3" 1600x1200 I used to use.
 562 2011-12-10 04:38:11 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: os x has made so many leaps in that area and rarely gets respect for it ;p
 563 2011-12-10 04:38:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you'd go crazy watching me work.
 564 2011-12-10 04:38:54 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: batshit insane.
 565 2011-12-10 04:39:41 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no matter what size the display 90% of my work is done in a 120x24 terminal (a single one using screen, mind you, usually 4-8 nested ones on different hosts and shit) at ~9pt font
 566 2011-12-10 04:39:56 <gmaxwell> I wonder if some crazy people put up something on all the tech news sites that they were trying to raise $xx million to get good screens made, if they'd get it. :)
 567 2011-12-10 04:40:20 * BlueMatt would donate a shitton
 568 2011-12-10 04:40:33 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: occassionally if i'm having to read annoying shit like java stack traces/etc it'll get blown up to an INSANE 120x48 ;p
 569 2011-12-10 04:40:48 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I work pretty much like that too. Except instead of screen its a set of tabbed gnome terminals packed covering the whole screen completely with no borders.
 570 2011-12-10 04:41:16 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya i can't work like that
 571 2011-12-10 04:41:42 <jrmithdobbs> i'll occassionally open a second term if i'm waiting for something to finish and watching it or something
 572 2011-12-10 04:41:49 <gmaxwell> and 9pt Inconsolata medium.
 573 2011-12-10 04:42:00 * BlueMatt needs to spend a week building a better working environment...
 574 2011-12-10 04:42:21 <BlueMatt> though I suppose most of my work is half-screen of gnome terminals and half-screen of gedit
 575 2011-12-10 04:42:21 <jrmithdobbs> otherwise i like one focal point with either research type stuff (email/web browser) or nothing behind it
 576 2011-12-10 04:42:24 <BlueMatt> or similar editor
 577 2011-12-10 04:42:42 <gmaxwell> I absolutely need at least two viewports.. one to read from and one to write to.
 578 2011-12-10 04:43:15 <jrmithdobbs> i've actually, shockingly to me, switched to running mail.app in the new fullscreen mode because i can cmd+tab to and from it like that
 579 2011-12-10 04:43:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you use gedit? ... take the time to learn a proper editor!
 580 2011-12-10 04:43:32 <jrmithdobbs> without having to see anything but the unread count on my normal screen
 581 2011-12-10 04:44:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, I usually use gedit or nano, thats another part of I need to take the time to sit down and optimize my workflow a shitton
 582 2011-12-10 04:44:22 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 583 2011-12-10 04:44:28 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: my set of safari windows on the other hand end up looking like your terminals in short order
 584 2011-12-10 04:44:31 <gmaxwell> (well, I shouldn't be talking, although I'm also an emacs user I still use joe for most of my normal editing)
 585 2011-12-10 04:45:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but for whatever reason i can easily filter out anything not in that 120x24 9pt Monaco
 586 2011-12-10 04:45:28 <gmaxwell> I need to stop using joe so I forget the damn keybindings so they don't frustrate me when I use emacs.
 587 2011-12-10 04:45:32 <jrmithdobbs> reverse video terminal
 588 2011-12-10 04:45:56 roconnor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 589 2011-12-10 04:48:40 <lianj> heh, confessions of editor usage
 590 2011-12-10 04:49:40 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: http://home.jrbobdobbs.org/mith/mba.png
 591 2011-12-10 04:50:05 <jrmithdobbs> that's right there are two im clients open in that screenshot logged into the same accounts
 592 2011-12-10 04:50:08 <jrmithdobbs> what of it
 593 2011-12-10 04:50:18 <jrmithdobbs> (just noticed that, haha)
 594 2011-12-10 04:52:58 <jrmithdobbs> at least i use a proper editor, though
 595 2011-12-10 04:53:26 <lianj> and dvorak
 596 2011-12-10 04:53:32 <jrmithdobbs> indeed
 597 2011-12-10 04:53:36 <BlueMatt> heh
 598 2011-12-10 04:54:16 <gmaxwell> oy.. overlapping windows.
 599 2011-12-10 04:54:55 <copumpkin> use xmonad
 600 2011-12-10 04:55:04 <copumpkin> I am surely unbiased
 601 2011-12-10 04:55:11 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: see previous comment about being able to mentally filter out everything but the terminal ;p
 602 2011-12-10 04:55:32 <lianj> copumpkin: on osx?
 603 2011-12-10 04:55:40 <copumpkin> nah, osx sux
 604 2011-12-10 04:55:43 <copumpkin> get a real computer
 605 2011-12-10 04:55:49 <jrmithdobbs> i did lie though, i apparently changed from 9pt monaco to 12pt some time around when my laptop res got better than 1024x768 ;p
 606 2011-12-10 04:55:52 <copumpkin> (okay fine, I'll stop trolling, I'm on a mac right now)
 607 2011-12-10 04:55:59 <[Tycho]> Why would someone use irssi ?
 608 2011-12-10 04:56:01 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: I use xmoand. It's not use for haskell nuts— its probably the only windowmanager with formal software testing.
 609 2011-12-10 04:56:09 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: utf8 input
 610 2011-12-10 04:56:22 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: yeah, I know quite a few people who like it despite not being haskell nutjobs
 611 2011-12-10 04:56:53 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: why do you need that ?
 612 2011-12-10 04:56:54 <lianj> gmaxwell: subtle is nice too
 613 2011-12-10 04:57:00 <jrmithdobbs> copumpkin: i've actually happily used xmoand and ratpoison in the paste actually
 614 2011-12-10 04:57:10 <[Tycho]> Other clients can't do it ?
 615 2011-12-10 04:57:19 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: ascii art is lots better with utf8 that's why
 616 2011-12-10 04:57:26 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: correct
 617 2011-12-10 04:57:32 <jrmithdobbs> terminal ones, anyways
 618 2011-12-10 04:57:41 <BlueMatt> heh, if you saw the retarded rick perry "I have never read the constitution" video: http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/e23d1c26d4/jesus-responds-to-rick-perry-s-strong-ad
 619 2011-12-10 04:57:52 <jrmithdobbs> it might get fixed in epic if the guy who showed interest doesn't lose it before fixing it ;p
 620 2011-12-10 04:57:59 <[Tycho]> I'm using LimeChat, but it's way worse than mIRC :(
 621 2011-12-10 04:57:59 <jrmithdobbs> at which point i'll stop using irssi
 622 2011-12-10 04:58:31 <jrmithdobbs> not pictured in the screen shot is the hilarious number of computers it takes to display that irssi window
 623 2011-12-10 04:58:53 <copumpkin> [Tycho]: I like textual, which is a fork of limechat
 624 2011-12-10 04:58:58 <copumpkin> well, like is a strong word
 625 2011-12-10 04:59:05 <copumpkin> but it's better than the other shitty IRC clients I tried
 626 2011-12-10 04:59:08 <jrmithdobbs> laptop->screen session on router->screen session on mini->irssi->openvpn tunnel->bnc->irc
 627 2011-12-10 04:59:29 <lianj> s/screen/tmux/
 628 2011-12-10 04:59:33 <jrmithdobbs> nevar
 629 2011-12-10 04:59:37 <[Tycho]> copumpkin: what's the difference ?
 630 2011-12-10 04:59:52 <copumpkin> [Tycho]: I can't remember, I was trying a bunch of clients back then, and settled on this one :P
 631 2011-12-10 05:00:01 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: tmux is nifty, i can't remember what it is off hand but there's some trivially stupid feature of screen i use constantly that they don't have implemented yet
 632 2011-12-10 05:00:05 <lianj> tmux is the tiled terminal wm just there :>
 633 2011-12-10 05:00:30 <lianj> which one?
 634 2011-12-10 05:00:40 <jrmithdobbs> i like their session management and flinging windows between sessions and stuff
 635 2011-12-10 05:00:43 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
 636 2011-12-10 05:00:46 ThomasV_ has joined
 637 2011-12-10 05:00:59 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: i can't remember, i'd have to spend time actually trying to work (instead of irc) in a tmux session to remember, heh
 638 2011-12-10 05:01:10 <lianj> hehe ok
 639 2011-12-10 05:01:30 <jrmithdobbs> i like it though and keep trying it every few months ;p
 640 2011-12-10 05:01:40 <jrmithdobbs> the less gpl'ed software i can use the better imho.
 641 2011-12-10 05:02:49 <lianj> tiling panels in tmux is also very enjoyable, also moving them between windows or even session like you said
 642 2011-12-10 05:06:56 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: oh wow you can have input broadcast to multiple terms at once in tmux? that's nifty.
 643 2011-12-10 05:07:42 <rjk2> speak of the devil: http://hexus.net/mobile/news/tablets/32726-apple-ipad-3-qxga-panels-enter-production/
 644 2011-12-10 05:07:47 <lianj> yes, nice for pairprogramming
 645 2011-12-10 05:08:11 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: or ghetto capistrino deploys
 646 2011-12-10 05:08:17 <jrmithdobbs> was more what i was thinking
 647 2011-12-10 05:08:21 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 648 2011-12-10 05:08:30 <rjk2> wonder if i can rip the screen out and use it otherwise, or else keep it in the bezel and mount it and drive it externally
 649 2011-12-10 05:08:32 <lianj> also a tmux session is a socket, anyone that can read/write to it can attach it
 650 2011-12-10 05:08:54 <jrmithdobbs> ya there whole client/server model is a billion times better than screen
 651 2011-12-10 05:10:36 mod6_ has joined
 652 2011-12-10 05:10:48 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: remembered what it was
 653 2011-12-10 05:11:08 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: the logging thing mentioned on this page, but apparently that's fixed
 654 2011-12-10 05:11:15 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: http://www.wikivs.com/wiki/Screen_vs_tmux
 655 2011-12-10 05:11:59 <lianj> ah :)
 656 2011-12-10 05:12:15 <jrmithdobbs> i'm sure you could see how that'd get annoying quick if you're used to it
 657 2011-12-10 05:12:36 mod6 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 659 2011-12-10 05:17:56 <BlueMatt> rjk2: there is an x11 server app for iOS
 660 2011-12-10 05:18:01 <BlueMatt> could just use that...
 661 2011-12-10 05:18:10 <rjk2> really? hmmm
 662 2011-12-10 05:18:15 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: iSSH
 663 2011-12-10 05:18:19 <BlueMatt> iirc it costs $, but not too bad
 664 2011-12-10 05:18:20 <jrmithdobbs> it's like $5
 665 2011-12-10 05:18:32 <BlueMatt> well there is always instalulous
 666 2011-12-10 05:19:00 <jrmithdobbs> but will do crazy things like vnc connections tunneled over ssh (as in, ssh in port forward and then connect to vnc over the forward ... ) automagically
 667 2011-12-10 05:19:05 <jrmithdobbs> it's worth the $5
 668 2011-12-10 05:19:22 <BlueMatt> or just straight xserv
 669 2011-12-10 05:19:24 <jrmithdobbs> pretty great vt220/xterm-color emulation too
 670 2011-12-10 05:20:38 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 671 2011-12-10 05:21:58 <jrmithdobbs> kind of want to install tmux on my laptop but really don't want to update the rest of my ports tree
 672 2011-12-10 05:22:02 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 673 2011-12-10 05:25:39 <lianj> haha
 674 2011-12-10 05:26:03 media-948 has joined
 675 2011-12-10 05:26:29 media-948 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 676 2011-12-10 05:26:36 <lianj> do you need to? it only depends on ncurses, libevent
 677 2011-12-10 05:26:58 <jrmithdobbs> macports is in a shit state on this box atm
 678 2011-12-10 05:27:17 <jrmithdobbs> so if I start futzing with it i'm going to fix it
 679 2011-12-10 05:28:38 <jrmithdobbs> Error: Target org.macports.destroot returned: shell command failed (see log for details)
 680 2011-12-10 05:28:41 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 681 2011-12-10 05:28:42 <lianj> good time to switch to homebrew then :>
 682 2011-12-10 05:28:46 <jrmithdobbs> on zlib
 683 2011-12-10 05:28:48 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 684 2011-12-10 05:29:10 <jrmithdobbs> I don't like homebrew
 685 2011-12-10 05:29:16 <lianj> i left the mac before homebrew came, but heard good things about it
 686 2011-12-10 05:29:38 media-584 has joined
 687 2011-12-10 05:29:56 <jrmithdobbs> no i just broke this at one point back when the bitcoin os x build was wonky and i was trying to figure out how to get it to build against the macports versions of the libs
 688 2011-12-10 05:30:18 <jrmithdobbs> homebrew is non-deterministic and kind of annoying if you have more than one box
 689 2011-12-10 05:30:31 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 690 2011-12-10 05:30:46 <jrmithdobbs> because building things in different orders means there's no telling how a given package is built on a given system compared to one you were just using
 691 2011-12-10 05:31:35 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: i treat macports like i treat freebsd ports and have a buildhost and shit ;p
 692 2011-12-10 05:33:14 <lianj> ^^
 693 2011-12-10 05:34:41 BurtyB has joined
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 695 2011-12-10 05:41:29 theymos has joined
 696 2011-12-10 05:41:43 <luke-jr> weeeeee
 697 2011-12-10 05:41:54 <luke-jr> I now have a Bitcoin-Qt with "Generate Bitcoins" menu option
 698 2011-12-10 05:42:08 <luke-jr> that uses Eligius with a BitForce
 699 2011-12-10 05:42:44 <luke-jr> no configuration required, just check the menu item and wait for bitcoins :D
 700 2011-12-10 05:43:11 <rjk2> you have a unit to test with, or jsut going by the protocol spec?
 701 2011-12-10 05:43:58 <luke-jr> rjk2: I will have a unit to test with tomorrow.
 702 2011-12-10 05:44:09 <rjk2> nice
 703 2011-12-10 05:44:49 <luke-jr> no LP support yet, but Eligius can handle it ;)
 704 2011-12-10 05:44:54 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 705 2011-12-10 05:45:23 <luke-jr> "yet" assuming they want to hire me to finish it properly <.<;;
 706 2011-12-10 05:45:30 <luke-jr> LP support would be much more difficult
 707 2011-12-10 05:46:03 <rjk2> wonder if it would be easier to rip the core out and build it into cgminer
 708 2011-12-10 05:46:56 <luke-jr> probably.
 709 2011-12-10 05:47:03 <luke-jr> and then link cgminer into Bitcoin-Qt optionally
 710 2011-12-10 05:47:14 <luke-jr> this way just seemed more fun
 711 2011-12-10 05:47:23 <rjk2> of course ;)
 712 2011-12-10 05:48:23 <luke-jr> I imagine I could drastically increase Eligius's userbase if I had a one-check miner builtin to a Bitcoin-Qt fork
 713 2011-12-10 05:48:32 <copumpkin> BitForce?
 714 2011-12-10 05:48:45 <rjk2> butterflylabs unicorn box ;)
 715 2011-12-10 05:48:45 <luke-jr> copumpkin: "1 GH/s at 20 W" FPGA
 716 2011-12-10 05:48:51 <copumpkin> oh, nice
 717 2011-12-10 05:49:01 <copumpkin> how does it interface with the computer?
 718 2011-12-10 05:49:07 <luke-jr> USB UART
 719 2011-12-10 05:49:08 <jrmithdobbs> was going to ask the same thing
 720 2011-12-10 05:49:10 <jrmithdobbs> ewww
 721 2011-12-10 05:49:14 <copumpkin> hah
 722 2011-12-10 05:49:15 <copumpkin> ah well
 723 2011-12-10 05:49:20 <rjk2> except atm it seems to be a ~975mhash at 60 watts anyway
 724 2011-12-10 05:49:27 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: that's not the bad part… I have to poll it for results :/
 725 2011-12-10 05:49:33 <copumpkin> rjk2: you've used one?
 726 2011-12-10 05:49:36 <rjk2> no
 727 2011-12-10 05:49:37 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: seriously?
 728 2011-12-10 05:49:42 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: yes
 729 2011-12-10 05:49:49 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: I guess it's not TOO bad since it's predictable.
 730 2011-12-10 05:49:58 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: why not just add some simple serial terminal logic
 731 2011-12-10 05:50:00 <luke-jr> ie, you can wait exactly N ms to start polling
 732 2011-12-10 05:50:06 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: and let it spit back a stream
 733 2011-12-10 05:50:15 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: dunno, ask them >_<
 734 2011-12-10 05:50:32 <luke-jr> my guess is the core part just writes to a buffer while it works
 735 2011-12-10 05:50:38 <luke-jr> and pushing would slow it down
 736 2011-12-10 05:50:40 <jrmithdobbs> the polling might be where that other 25mhash and extra 40 watts of load is coming from ;p
 737 2011-12-10 05:50:41 <copumpkin> you could write a simple API that presented a "streaming" interface
 738 2011-12-10 05:50:44 <jrmithdobbs> (half serious)
 739 2011-12-10 05:50:59 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: I guess I'll find out tomorrow
 740 2011-12-10 05:51:53 <jrmithdobbs> rjk2: you know if it's actually a custom fpga or just like a vertex/etc?
 741 2011-12-10 05:52:01 <rjk2> no one knows
 742 2011-12-10 05:52:11 <rjk2> check out the forum for all the specualtion
 743 2011-12-10 05:52:16 <rjk2> speculation*
 744 2011-12-10 05:52:26 <jrmithdobbs> don't care that much
 745 2011-12-10 05:52:28 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 746 2011-12-10 05:52:56 <rjk2> i hate the forums, that is the only thread i watch
 747 2011-12-10 05:53:14 <rjk2> its been locked once already for troll wars
 748 2011-12-10 05:55:59 zeiris has joined
 749 2011-12-10 05:58:12 <jrmithdobbs> oh annoying, zlib was broken because i had distcc turned on
 750 2011-12-10 05:58:23 <jrmithdobbs> shameful
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 754 2011-12-10 06:16:17 <[Tycho]> rjk2: I would say that ~975 MH/s is optimistic.
 755 2011-12-10 06:19:47 <jrmithdobbs> what are they charging?
 756 2011-12-10 06:21:50 <[Tycho]> $699
 757 2011-12-10 06:22:30 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: if Ufasoft keeps crashing, it could explain your low averages
 758 2011-12-10 06:22:51 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: why do they use Ufasoft ?
 759 2011-12-10 06:23:04 <luke-jr> nfc, but they've given up on it for now :>
 760 2011-12-10 06:23:13 <luke-jr> they'll be using my miner for their demo on Sunday
 761 2011-12-10 06:23:23 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: also, do Ufasoft crashes many times per minute ?
 762 2011-12-10 06:23:34 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: not sure
 763 2011-12-10 06:23:54 <[Tycho]> It looks like persistent speed to me, not crashing.
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 766 2011-12-10 06:25:19 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: you can't get persistent averages over minutes
 767 2011-12-10 06:26:54 BurtyB has joined
 768 2011-12-10 06:27:00 <[Tycho]> I see how the shares are coming and there are no noticeable working/crashed pattern.
 769 2011-12-10 06:27:03 <Nixload> First time accepted submitter RCC42 writes "The Opportunity rover has found evidence that liquid water once flowed on Mars, through the discovery of gypsum — a mineral that can only be formed in the presence of water. Though other evidence in the past has suggested highly acidic water on Mars, this is the first evidence for water with a pH suitable for life as we know it."
 770 2011-12-10 06:27:06 <luke-jr> also, I would suggest not making critical speculation since you intend to compete with them
 771 2011-12-10 06:27:09 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 772 2011-12-10 06:27:40 <luke-jr> even if it turns out to be true, it makes you look bad :p
 773 2011-12-10 06:28:26 <[Tycho]> I didn't said anything.
 774 2011-12-10 06:29:32 <luke-jr> :P
 775 2011-12-10 06:29:38 <[Tycho]> I'm not even posting "it's a scam" screams in that scam thread.
 776 2011-12-10 06:29:56 <jrmithdobbs> scam's probably harsh
 777 2011-12-10 06:30:09 <jrmithdobbs> but it doesn't seem to be 100% legit either
 778 2011-12-10 06:30:26 <[Tycho]> Yes, I don't think it's a scam. And it may be legit. Just not up to specs yet.
 779 2011-12-10 06:31:18 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: if my project will be successful, "competition" wouldn't be the word :)
 780 2011-12-10 06:31:39 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: seems pretty legit to me
 781 2011-12-10 06:32:01 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: well, the 1MH/s @ 20W claim at least
 782 2011-12-10 06:32:18 <[Tycho]> 1 MH/s looks legit.
 783 2011-12-10 06:33:54 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: I just need Bitcoin to survive those months :)
 784 2011-12-10 06:34:08 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: why?
 785 2011-12-10 06:34:19 <[Tycho]> To sell my product, of course.
 786 2011-12-10 06:35:29 <jrmithdobbs> ;;tell,gavinanderson please to be updating github downloads
 787 2011-12-10 06:35:29 <gribble> Error: "tell,gavinanderson" is not a valid command.
 788 2011-12-10 06:35:36 <jrmithdobbs> ;;tell gavinanderson please to be updating github downloads
 789 2011-12-10 06:35:37 <gribble> Error: I haven't seen gavinanderson, I'll let you do the telling.
 790 2011-12-10 06:35:48 <jrmithdobbs> err
 791 2011-12-10 06:35:52 <justmoon> jrmithdobbs: gavinandresen
 792 2011-12-10 06:36:00 <[Tycho]> He has a tricky nickname, for sure :)
 793 2011-12-10 06:36:05 <jrmithdobbs> ;;tell gavinandresen please to be updating github downloads
 794 2011-12-10 06:36:06 <gribble> Error: I haven't seen gavinandresen, I'll let you do the telling.
 795 2011-12-10 06:36:10 <jrmithdobbs> haha
 796 2011-12-10 06:36:54 <jrmithdobbs> ;;tell BlueMatt tell gavin please to be updating github downloads
 797 2011-12-10 06:36:55 <gribble> Error: I haven't seen BlueMatt, I'll let you do the telling.
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 799 2011-12-10 06:37:07 <jrmithdobbs> um, is gribble broke?
 800 2011-12-10 06:37:54 <jrmithdobbs> ;;later gavinandresen please to be updating github downloads
 801 2011-12-10 06:37:55 <gribble> Error: The "Later" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "gavinandresen" in it.  Try "list Later" to see the commands in the "Later" plugin.
 802 2011-12-10 06:38:06 <jrmithdobbs> ;;later tell gavinandresen please to be updating github downloads
 803 2011-12-10 06:38:07 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 804 2011-12-10 06:38:14 <jrmithdobbs> maybe
 805 2011-12-10 06:38:20 <justmoon> ^^
 806 2011-12-10 06:38:29 <justmoon> you definitely get an A for persistence
 807 2011-12-10 06:47:17 wasabi3 has joined
 808 2011-12-10 06:47:59 <luke-jr> ;;later tell jrmithdobbs o rly?
 809 2011-12-10 06:48:00 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 811 2011-12-10 06:49:41 <gmaxwell> 'but there is no command named "gavinandresen" in it.'  < I like the idea of a gavinandresen command.
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 813 2011-12-10 06:50:59 <justmoon> gavinandresen should be a verb
 814 2011-12-10 06:51:08 <luke-jr> :;alias add gavin later tell gavinandresen $*
 815 2011-12-10 06:51:17 <justmoon> lol
 816 2011-12-10 06:52:50 <gmaxwell> "daaaaddddd she's touching me!"
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 818 2011-12-10 06:58:17 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: brilliant
 819 2011-12-10 06:59:01 <jrmithdobbs> ;;blocks
 820 2011-12-10 06:59:02 <gribble> Error: "blocks" is not a valid command.
 821 2011-12-10 06:59:07 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
 822 2011-12-10 06:59:08 <gribble> 156890
 823 2011-12-10 07:01:38 <phantomcircuit> theymos, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54131.0
 824 2011-12-10 07:01:44 <phantomcircuit> this shit is getting ridiculous
 825 2011-12-10 07:01:51 <phantomcircuit> coinexchanger.com should be banned from the forums
 826 2011-12-10 07:02:09 <phantomcircuit> he's got like a dozen threads he keeps bumping
 827 2011-12-10 07:02:12 <[Tycho]> phantomcircuit: is this a scam ?
 828 2011-12-10 07:02:23 <phantomcircuit> [Tycho], i actually have no idea
 829 2011-12-10 07:02:34 <phantomcircuit> i suspect it just has a very large spread
 830 2011-12-10 07:02:43 <phantomcircuit> Buy: 3.29 Sell: 2.688
 831 2011-12-10 07:03:04 <phantomcircuit> and huge fees
 832 2011-12-10 07:03:07 <phantomcircuit> anyways
 833 2011-12-10 07:03:13 <phantomcircuit> the spam is what's annoying me
 834 2011-12-10 07:03:22 <[Tycho]> What language is gribble written in ?
 835 2011-12-10 07:04:08 <ThomasV_> ask him
 836 2011-12-10 07:04:47 <phantomcircuit> python
 837 2011-12-10 07:04:51 <phantomcircuit> http://sourceforge.net/projects/supybot/
 838 2011-12-10 07:05:18 <midnightmagic> gribble is a supybot written at least partly in python
 839 2011-12-10 07:07:17 <jrmithdobbs> ;;lang
 840 2011-12-10 07:07:18 <gribble> Error: "lang" is not a valid command.
 841 2011-12-10 07:07:31 <luke-jr> ;;version
 842 2011-12-10 07:07:34 <gribble> The current (running) version of this Supybot is 0.83.4.1+gribble (2011-08-12T18:12:56-0400).  The newest version available in the gribble git repository is 0.83.4.1+gribble (2011-08-12T18:12:56-0400).
 843 2011-12-10 07:07:42 <luke-jr> O.o
 844 2011-12-10 07:08:42 <phantomcircuit> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Trade&action=view#Real-time_Trading
 845 2011-12-10 07:08:54 <phantomcircuit> the cryptoxchange entry seems extremely misleading to me
 846 2011-12-10 07:09:06 <phantomcircuit> they accept wire transfers in various currencies
 847 2011-12-10 07:09:11 <phantomcircuit> but really everybody does
 848 2011-12-10 07:09:15 <phantomcircuit> that seems... wrong
 849 2011-12-10 07:09:31 <midnightmagic> gribble source is in nanotube's github repo here: github.com/nanotube/ and everything i can find is written in python
 850 2011-12-10 07:10:45 <luke-jr> nanotube should add Yandere to gribble
 851 2011-12-10 07:10:48 <luke-jr> then it's Python+PHP
 852 2011-12-10 07:11:03 <luke-jr> <.<
 853 2011-12-10 07:13:12 <midnightmagic> ah.  looks like sourceforge is the "main" repository. git://gribble.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/gribble/gribble
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 856 2011-12-10 07:18:53 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: the three piss poor pees if you will, even
 857 2011-12-10 07:18:55 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 858 2011-12-10 07:19:10 * jrmithdobbs hides
 859 2011-12-10 07:19:30 <theymos> phantomcircuit: I banned him and deleted all of his posts.
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 861 2011-12-10 07:20:01 <phantomcircuit> theymos, hazah
 862 2011-12-10 07:20:08 <[Tycho]> Cool.
 863 2011-12-10 07:21:12 <luke-jr> theymos: next up is [Tycho]
 864 2011-12-10 07:21:15 <luke-jr> </troll>
 865 2011-12-10 07:22:46 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: then luke-jr
 866 2011-12-10 07:22:48 <jrmithdobbs> </serious>
 867 2011-12-10 07:23:02 <luke-jr> that's a lot of work
 868 2011-12-10 07:23:05 <copumpkin> I, on the other hand, am awesome
 869 2011-12-10 07:23:09 <copumpkin> haven't you seen my ad on the forum?
 870 2011-12-10 07:23:11 <luke-jr> there's a shortcut too
 871 2011-12-10 07:23:17 <luke-jr> let's just delete the whole forum
 872 2011-12-10 07:23:29 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: seconded
 873 2011-12-10 07:23:43 <luke-jr> :P
 874 2011-12-10 07:23:47 <jrmithdobbs> objections?
 875 2011-12-10 07:23:51 <jrmithdobbs> motion passes
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 878 2011-12-10 07:32:32 <[Tycho]> Who is copumpkin and what is his project ?
 879 2011-12-10 07:32:45 <copumpkin> why should I have a project?
 880 2011-12-10 07:33:04 <copumpkin> oh, the ad? the ad just says I'm awesome
 881 2011-12-10 07:33:34 <[Tycho]> Because you are on #bitcoin-dev
 882 2011-12-10 07:33:57 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 883 2011-12-10 07:34:05 <copumpkin> o.O
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 893 2011-12-10 08:08:22 <theymos> Did Gavin ever send an alert about the wallet encryption bug?
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 898 2011-12-10 08:37:20 <doublec> has an alert ever been sent?
 899 2011-12-10 08:37:57 <theymos> Not if one wasn't sent in this case. I thought Gavin was going to send one for this, though.
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 914 2011-12-10 09:27:14 <CIA-100> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rf84c39e / (lib/rpc/jsonrpcserver.js lib/rpc/meta.js): Added "definerpc" meta RPC call. (+5 more commits...) - http://git.io/EY0R_w https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/f84c39e8a9fd1a7b8ef1fcb6c69b548d5cd33b88
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 967 2011-12-10 13:20:53 <erus`> anyone want a fitocracy invite?
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 974 2011-12-10 13:34:23 <Diablo-D3> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3337520
 975 2011-12-10 13:34:32 <Diablo-D3> nvidia hate time, upvote if you can
 976 2011-12-10 13:36:02 <batouzo> Diablo-D3: radeon sure sucks bawls too
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 978 2011-12-10 13:36:32 <batouzo> bitches couldn't write a driver to COM port that doesn't crash if their life depended on it
 979 2011-12-10 13:38:13 <Diablo-D3> if that was a troll, it wasnt a very good one
 980 2011-12-10 13:38:27 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck does AMD have to do with serial ports?
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1012 2011-12-10 15:30:30 <makomk> luke-jr: wait, the BitForce stuff requires polling for results? That's a bit silly of them...
1013 2011-12-10 15:30:39 <luke-jr> I agree.
1014 2011-12-10 15:32:37 <makomk> I mean, the FPGA I'm using does, but I don't have any resources left to implement anything clever. They've got a fairly powerful external microcontroller on their board.
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1016 2011-12-10 15:35:05 <Diablo-D3> why doesnt that just run the damned client then
1017 2011-12-10 15:37:05 <luke-jr> makomk: I imagine it would use yet even more power if the microcontroller polled on its own
1018 2011-12-10 15:37:11 <luke-jr> well, maybe not…
1019 2011-12-10 15:37:30 <luke-jr> since the microcontroller presumably can know how long to wait
1020 2011-12-10 15:37:53 <makomk> Diablo-D3: They didn't want to put in the development work for whatever reason. It has an Ethernet MAC and enough RAM to run a TCP/IP stack, wouldn't need much in the way of extra parts.
1021 2011-12-10 15:38:45 <Diablo-D3> makomk: does the board have the pins out somewhere though?
1022 2011-12-10 15:38:52 <Diablo-D3> like, on a solderable header or something
1023 2011-12-10 15:39:24 <makomk> Almost certainly not.
1024 2011-12-10 15:39:29 <Diablo-D3> damn
1025 2011-12-10 15:39:45 <Diablo-D3> because if they do, you can get a PHY (most likely doesnt have one) and jerry rig it all
1026 2011-12-10 15:40:10 <luke-jr> makomk: strangely, it sounds like nobody else will be able to do development work either
1027 2011-12-10 15:40:26 <luke-jr> they hinted at only being able to flash encrypted firmware on it
1028 2011-12-10 15:41:31 <makomk> Wouldn't surprise me.
1029 2011-12-10 15:44:19 <batouzo> Diablo-D3: nothing, I just ment amd's drivers are shit
1030 2011-12-10 15:45:07 <batouzo> as everyone moving mouse to right of screen on 5970 knows (actually that one is more hardware bug, so instead just switch video modes on binary driver)
1031 2011-12-10 15:46:21 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1032 2011-12-10 15:49:28 <Eliel> batouzo: hm? you mean that's a driver bug?
1033 2011-12-10 15:50:12 <etotheipi_> Diablo-D3, have you ever programmed in CUDA?   (I was just reading your link)
1034 2011-12-10 15:50:51 <batouzo> Eliel: the broken mouse pointer is more of hardware bug. Most other crashes/freezes seem to be the driver.
1035 2011-12-10 15:51:03 <Eliel> I'm using synergy for sharing the keyboard and mouse on this system with one another (on the right side) and sometimes when I move the mouse back, the screen is unresponsive for a moment.
1036 2011-12-10 15:51:22 <Eliel> it only seems to happen if I move the mouse through lower right corner of the screen
1037 2011-12-10 15:51:38 <Eliel> also seems to happen when I'm using the web browser and want to grab the scrollbar.
1038 2011-12-10 15:51:48 <batouzo> Eliel: if you have 5970 model, then moving mouse cursor there will change it into a random image. and sometimes crash the box
1039 2011-12-10 15:52:00 <Eliel> my system has 5850 though
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1041 2011-12-10 15:52:18 <Eliel> mouse cursor doesn't change but it does do other not nice stuff.
1042 2011-12-10 15:52:32 <batouzo> someone afair said similar bug existed also in other models. can be that. dunno
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1045 2011-12-10 15:52:56 * batouzo shares Eliel's pain
1046 2011-12-10 15:53:04 <Eliel> like hanging for a moment, sometimes it results in the mouse cursor starting to shake wildly while nothing else works (that means a reboot is needed)
1047 2011-12-10 15:53:36 <batouzo> Eliel: yes, the shaking-mouse-computer-frozen is the trademark. So you have the same bug despite not owning 5970. Congratulations.
1048 2011-12-10 15:53:54 <Eliel> actually, that happens with 5770 too.
1049 2011-12-10 15:54:05 <batouzo> this is exactly why nvidias are winning for gamers (that, and PR)
1050 2011-12-10 15:54:19 <batouzo> Eliel: afair its fixed in 6xxx
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1052 2011-12-10 15:55:09 <Eliel> right-clicking sometimes causes the mouse shaking too but that's usually fixable by right clicking again.
1053 2011-12-10 15:56:52 <Eliel> but I was nvidia-only person for quite a few years, until I discovered bitcoin.
1054 2011-12-10 15:57:12 <Eliel> I used to be ati-only but I got enough of the bad drivers eventually.
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1057 2011-12-10 16:00:59 <luke-jr> makomk: I'm trying to argue that even if they won't release their own code, we do have a legal right to reverse-engineer and make our own. Hopefully they might give in. ;)
1058 2011-12-10 16:01:19 <ExeciN> can the original bitcoin client mine?
1059 2011-12-10 16:01:31 <luke-jr> ExeciN: only for testing purposes
1060 2011-12-10 16:01:49 <luke-jr> ExeciN: I have a fork that can mine on the main network, and via the GUI
1061 2011-12-10 16:01:51 iocor has joined
1062 2011-12-10 16:02:15 <luke-jr> (the original client used to have a wxWidgets GUI, but that was removed)
1063 2011-12-10 16:02:35 <ExeciN> I don't really need it to mine. I just want to make sure I don't waste cpu
1064 2011-12-10 16:05:02 <luke-jr> ExeciN: pass -gen=0 to force it off
1065 2011-12-10 16:05:23 <ExeciN> luke-jr: thanks
1066 2011-12-10 16:06:13 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1067 2011-12-10 16:08:39 <ExeciN> a little tip for Mac users: open /Applications/Bitcoin-Qt.app --args -gen=0
1068 2011-12-10 16:10:54 ski_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1069 2011-12-10 16:12:51 iocor has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1072 2011-12-10 16:14:48 BlueMatt has joined
1073 2011-12-10 16:17:16 <etotheipi_> can someone *please* mine 1 block on the testnet network?  Surely someone is already set up to do this
1074 2011-12-10 16:17:38 <etotheipi_> I just need to get my tx into the blockchain so can start testing my client/software
1075 2011-12-10 16:17:58 <etotheipi_> I've waited more than 12 hours...
1076 2011-12-10 16:18:46 <makomk> etotheipi_: I think everyone uses testnet-in-a-box now, testnet's been unusuable for a while.
1077 2011-12-10 16:21:11 <etotheipi_> I seriously just need to get my tx into the blockchain and I'll be set for weeks
1078 2011-12-10 16:21:11 XXO1XX has joined
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1080 2011-12-10 16:22:41 <etotheipi_> testnet has a lot of fantastic non-std transactions (which I need to test), so I will be using it regardless
1081 2011-12-10 16:22:52 <etotheipi_> but I really just need one block... I'll pay 0.2 BTC :)
1082 2011-12-10 16:22:57 <etotheipi_> well two blocks...
1083 2011-12-10 16:23:08 DontMindMe has joined
1084 2011-12-10 16:27:14 Davincij15 has joined
1085 2011-12-10 16:28:29 <Davincij15> Hi I get an error comiling bitcoind on release 0.5.0 on the same computer I compile previous versions is there new dependancies that I need to download?
1086 2011-12-10 16:28:51 <Davincij15> I get
1087 2011-12-10 16:28:54 <Davincij15> net.cpp: In function âvoid ThreadMapPort2(void*)â:
1088 2011-12-10 16:28:54 <Davincij15> net.cpp:1138:74: error: too many arguments to function âUPNPDev* upnpDiscover(int, const char*, const char*, int)â
1089 2011-12-10 16:29:22 <Davincij15> and
1090 2011-12-10 16:29:27 <Davincij15> net.cpp:1151:77: error: too many arguments to function âint UPNP_AddPortMapping(const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*)â
1091 2011-12-10 16:29:44 iocor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1092 2011-12-10 16:30:58 <BlueMatt> etotheipi_: have you asked gmaxwell?
1093 2011-12-10 16:31:14 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: you need to update your copy of miniupnpc
1094 2011-12-10 16:32:02 iocor has joined
1095 2011-12-10 16:33:37 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: thanks for the info
1096 2011-12-10 16:35:14 diki has joined
1097 2011-12-10 16:35:26 <diki> I wondered why Google have a free DNS, then I understood why
1098 2011-12-10 16:35:33 <diki> So they can track you...wherever
1099 2011-12-10 16:35:43 <diki> they track which website you visit etc
1100 2011-12-10 16:36:17 <BlueMatt> if google is trying to log dns queries, they are crazy
1101 2011-12-10 16:36:32 <diki> I don't think it's not hard for them
1102 2011-12-10 16:36:33 <BlueMatt> also, you cant link the dns queries to an individual computer in a household, all you have is an ip
1103 2011-12-10 16:36:47 <BlueMatt> diki: double negative -> so you agree with me?
1104 2011-12-10 16:36:47 <diki> that IP is me
1105 2011-12-10 16:37:08 <BlueMatt> is that request for the user logged in on the desktop, or the laptop?
1106 2011-12-10 16:37:10 <diki> And google analytics does
1107 2011-12-10 16:37:21 <diki> They log what OS visits a website
1108 2011-12-10 16:37:29 <diki> what browser...when they compare the results
1109 2011-12-10 16:37:34 <BlueMatt> yea, analytics is easy
1110 2011-12-10 16:37:35 ThomasV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1111 2011-12-10 16:37:38 <diki> they would see I have two computers in my home
1112 2011-12-10 16:37:40 <BlueMatt> they get an http request
1113 2011-12-10 16:37:43 <diki> and am sharing the internet
1114 2011-12-10 16:37:45 <BlueMatt> for dns they dont
1115 2011-12-10 16:38:00 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1116 2011-12-10 16:38:11 <diki> they can only log the domain I am visiting
1117 2011-12-10 16:38:21 ThomasV has joined
1118 2011-12-10 16:38:26 <diki> that is enough for them to show me search results specific to my request
1119 2011-12-10 16:38:28 <BlueMatt> they cant though, they know ip probably connected to domain
1120 2011-12-10 16:38:30 <diki> As in, even more than before
1121 2011-12-10 16:38:34 <BlueMatt> not computer probably connected to domain
1122 2011-12-10 16:40:46 <BlueMatt> also, see http://code.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy.html
1123 2011-12-10 16:40:59 <Davincij15> bluematt: I am having trouble updating miniupnpc, I tried apt-get update;apt-get upgrade I also tried apt-get install miniupnpc
1124 2011-12-10 16:41:08 <diki> Google Games...does not seem impossible considering google buying a lot of small or big companies
1125 2011-12-10 16:41:30 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: for miniupnpc you are either going to have to get it manually, or grab the deb from the ubuntu ppa linked at bitcoin.org
1126 2011-12-10 16:42:40 <diki> BlueMatt:It states right there, they log quite a bit more than what I imagined.
1127 2011-12-10 16:42:44 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: thanks I am not a linux dude so this stuff is hard for me I wish there was a binary I could download for Natty Ubuntu
1128 2011-12-10 16:43:08 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: sudo apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin; sudo apt-get install miniupnpc8-dev
1129 2011-12-10 16:43:10 <BlueMatt> (IIRC)
1130 2011-12-10 16:43:49 <BlueMatt> no, it should be libminiupnpc8-dev
1131 2011-12-10 16:43:54 * luke-jr wonders if there's some good reason why we're no longer compatible with older miniupnpc
1132 2011-12-10 16:44:24 <diki> luke-jr:newer=better?
1133 2011-12-10 16:44:28 <BlueMatt> because they changed their API and there is no good way to do #if MINIUPNPC_VERSION> X (well that is what someone told me)
1134 2011-12-10 16:44:39 <BlueMatt> I never bothered to double-check, but whoever it was was reasonable iirc
1135 2011-12-10 16:44:41 <luke-jr> diki: not always
1136 2011-12-10 16:44:48 <diki> I agree on that a bit
1137 2011-12-10 16:44:53 <BlueMatt> also, there are updates in newer versions that add compatibility with some routers
1138 2011-12-10 16:45:07 <diki> Some devices or stuff we use have short life, not due to wearing them out
1139 2011-12-10 16:45:13 <BlueMatt> diki: you realize that that privacy page pretty much states that everything you said earlier was wrong?
1140 2011-12-10 16:45:24 <diki> BlueMatt:They log which domain i request
1141 2011-12-10 16:45:28 <Davincij15> blueMatt: thanks I will try that there are issues with your command because it linux nothing works as out of the box.
1142 2011-12-10 16:45:33 <BlueMatt> diki: they log some shit, but dont link it to you
1143 2011-12-10 16:45:53 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: on Ubuntu, that command should work out of the box
1144 2011-12-10 16:46:01 <ThomasV> hello; does getmemorypool return low priority transactions?
1145 2011-12-10 16:46:12 <BlueMatt> sudo apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin; sudo apt-get install libminiupnpc8-dev
1146 2011-12-10 16:46:26 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: it does not it requiers other items installed
1147 2011-12-10 16:47:23 <diki> BlueMatt:You do realize they can lie just as Carrier IQ lied they log people
1148 2011-12-10 16:47:27 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: on any desktop natty system, typing that followed by your password and y will install libminiupnpc8-dev and libminiupnpc8 allowing you to build the latest bitcoin
1149 2011-12-10 16:47:38 <BlueMatt> diki: CIQ didnt lie...
1150 2011-12-10 16:47:46 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: I got apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin to work but the command apt-get install libminiupnpc8-dev returned unable to locate package
1151 2011-12-10 16:47:46 <BlueMatt> diki: they were very upfront and clear
1152 2011-12-10 16:48:00 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: oh, my bad add a sudo apt-get update in between there
1153 2011-12-10 16:48:05 rdponticelli has joined
1154 2011-12-10 16:48:22 <BlueMatt> diki: also, if they did lie they would open themselves up to huge lawsuits, which would be stupid reckless, and they wouldnt do that
1155 2011-12-10 16:48:24 rdponticelli_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1156 2011-12-10 16:49:41 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: apt-get update? thanks this is normal for linux I'm use to it after using it for the first time in the last 4 months I am committed to bitcoin no matter how much pain I have to endure.
1157 2011-12-10 16:50:09 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: heh, why are you building bitcoin from source anyway?
1158 2011-12-10 16:50:40 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: I am using Ubuntu server and can't find a binary
1159 2011-12-10 16:50:46 <Davincij15> to download
1160 2011-12-10 16:51:22 <BlueMatt> there are two options, download the tgz from bitcoin.org and use the bitcoind binary in it, or sudo apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin; sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get install bitcoind
1161 2011-12-10 16:51:33 Guest84098 has joined
1162 2011-12-10 16:51:37 <BlueMatt> the second will add it to your apt repositories which allows for easier updating in the future
1163 2011-12-10 16:51:41 Guest84098 is now known as dikidera
1164 2011-12-10 16:51:41 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1165 2011-12-10 16:51:45 <BlueMatt> (via standard apt-get update; apt-get upgrade)
1166 2011-12-10 16:51:52 <dikidera> small disconnect
1167 2011-12-10 16:51:59 <dikidera> as i said
1168 2011-12-10 16:52:03 <dikidera> But I am rather disappointed
1169 2011-12-10 16:52:13 <dikidera> That no one reversed the APP and actually tell us what it did
1170 2011-12-10 16:52:48 <BlueMatt> CIQ has been very up front and honest, also plenty of people know exactly what CIQ gets from the os, how it gets it and have reported on this
1171 2011-12-10 16:53:28 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I beg to differ.
1172 2011-12-10 16:53:37 <luke-jr> [11:43:10] <BlueMatt> because they changed their API and there is no good way to do #if MINIUPNPC_VERSION> X (well that is what someone told me)
1173 2011-12-10 16:53:39 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: Linux people make assumtions that people know everything they fail to clue in that a command line does not give you a menu of options.  It should be documented on the site
1174 2011-12-10 16:53:54 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ok, what VERSION do they define?
1175 2011-12-10 16:54:15 <luke-jr> they don't.
1176 2011-12-10 16:54:52 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: if you go to bitcoin.org, then click on ubuntu ppa, then click on read more about installing, they give you a clear list of instructions for how to install the repo
1177 2011-12-10 16:55:00 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ok, so how does one #ifdef it?
1178 2011-12-10 16:55:01 <luke-jr> Davincij15: command line DOES give you a menu of options
1179 2011-12-10 16:55:21 <Davincij15> Luke-jr: LOL
1180 2011-12-10 16:56:39 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: I did and I was unable to determin what I was looking at.
1181 2011-12-10 16:56:50 <dikidera> GUI apps need to be made simpler to make the same way you can create a console app
1182 2011-12-10 16:57:07 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: mmm, well anyway, just sudo apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin; sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get install bitcoind and you are good to go
1183 2011-12-10 16:57:38 <BlueMatt> dikidera: there are so many problems with that statement I dont even know where to begin...
1184 2011-12-10 16:57:48 <dikidera> Such as?
1185 2011-12-10 16:57:58 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: Well thanks I will try that and hope it works so far the update libminiupnpc8-dev did not work
1186 2011-12-10 16:57:59 <dikidera> It's the OS that takes care of what is visually produced
1187 2011-12-10 16:58:00 <BlueMatt> gui apps ARE easy to create?
1188 2011-12-10 16:58:14 <dikidera> BlueMatt:is that a rhetorical statement?
1189 2011-12-10 16:58:19 <dikidera> s/statement/question
1190 2011-12-10 16:58:21 <BlueMatt> no
1191 2011-12-10 16:58:35 <dikidera> As I said, they need to be EASY to make
1192 2011-12-10 16:58:39 <BlueMatt> actually, with many of the modern gui creation tools, gui apps are very easy to create
1193 2011-12-10 16:58:44 <BlueMatt> and build
1194 2011-12-10 16:58:44 <etotheipi_> BlueMatt, I'm working on a "GUI app" right now...
1195 2011-12-10 16:58:46 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr restore_old_miniupnp_compat * r94b97046fdd7 bitcoind-personal/src/net.cpp: Restore compatibility with miniupnpc 1.5 (without breaking miniupnp 1.6) http://tinyurl.com/88kl689
1196 2011-12-10 16:58:50 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: ^
1197 2011-12-10 16:58:52 <luke-jr> like that
1198 2011-12-10 16:58:56 <etotheipi_> with PyQt it's a breeze... with some experience
1199 2011-12-10 16:59:00 <etotheipi_> I just don't have the expeience yet :)
1200 2011-12-10 16:59:06 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: PyQt is obsolete
1201 2011-12-10 16:59:21 <etotheipi_> how is it obsolete?
1202 2011-12-10 16:59:21 <dikidera> etotheipi_:what does Python have to do with anything?
1203 2011-12-10 16:59:36 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: nice, pull request it
1204 2011-12-10 16:59:48 <etotheipi_> it's because I'm creating an app with python now... and compared to Qt in C++, it's ridiculously easy
1205 2011-12-10 17:00:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: did
1206 2011-12-10 17:00:18 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: PySide
1207 2011-12-10 17:00:20 <dikidera> I've come to hate C++, i'd rather C
1208 2011-12-10 17:00:30 <dikidera> but most APIs out there are C++ and mixing it...blah
1209 2011-12-10 17:00:47 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure whats worse
1210 2011-12-10 17:00:53 <Diablo-D3> someone is using python, or someone is using Qt
1211 2011-12-10 17:01:04 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: or someone using java...
1212 2011-12-10 17:01:07 <dikidera> lol
1213 2011-12-10 17:01:10 <BlueMatt> Id have to say #3
1214 2011-12-10 17:01:20 * Diablo-D3 smacks blueMatt
1215 2011-12-10 17:01:25 <BlueMatt> heh
1216 2011-12-10 17:01:30 <Diablo-D3> shuddup before I rewrite diablominer in javascript
1217 2011-12-10 17:01:33 <Diablo-D3> or lisp
1218 2011-12-10 17:01:38 <BlueMatt> oh god
1219 2011-12-10 17:01:44 <dikidera> tbh:I've seen people mentioning phoenix,cgminer,poclbm
1220 2011-12-10 17:01:45 <Diablo-D3> I think I saw someone put an opencl api wrapper for lisp
1221 2011-12-10 17:01:47 <dikidera> but never DiabloMiner
1222 2011-12-10 17:02:01 <dikidera> it's like it died before even existing
1223 2011-12-10 17:02:02 <Diablo-D3> dikidera: mining is pretty much half dm half cgminer
1224 2011-12-10 17:02:07 <Diablo-D3> no one used phoenix or poclbm
1225 2011-12-10 17:02:13 <dikidera> ...right
1226 2011-12-10 17:02:25 <Diablo-D3> I mean, remember, diablominer is as old as poclbm
1227 2011-12-10 17:02:32 <Diablo-D3> its not like it suddenly popped into existence one day
1228 2011-12-10 17:03:17 <ThomasV> getmemorypool does not seem to return low priority transactions. any idea why? is this something that can be configured?
1229 2011-12-10 17:03:18 <dikidera> Well it did suddenly pop
1230 2011-12-10 17:03:47 * luke-jr cleans up his git repos
1231 2011-12-10 17:04:00 <luke-jr> ThomasV: it returns what bitcoind would otherwise put into a block
1232 2011-12-10 17:04:08 <BlueMatt> ThomasV: getmemorypool was designed to allow things like p2pool to get a list of txes to include <- Im assuming that is why
1233 2011-12-10 17:05:05 * luke-jr has an awful lot of unmerged branches :/
1234 2011-12-10 17:05:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: hey, since I reviewed your keepnode, care to review txinfo? :P
1235 2011-12-10 17:05:37 <BlueMatt> where is it?
1236 2011-12-10 17:05:56 <ThomasV> luke-jr: and can I configure it to include low priority tx?
1237 2011-12-10 17:05:59 <BlueMatt> cntl-f txinfo gives me nothing...
1238 2011-12-10 17:07:27 <luke-jr> right… it's one of them that gavin decided "hey, you put a lot of work into making pull requests for these things; too many, I'll just close half of them for no reason"
1239 2011-12-10 17:07:29 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/556
1240 2011-12-10 17:07:58 <luke-jr> ThomasV: you can change the code.
1241 2011-12-10 17:08:28 <ThomasV> luke-jr: indeed; any pointer to where I should look?
1242 2011-12-10 17:08:28 zeiris has joined
1243 2011-12-10 17:08:37 <luke-jr> ThomasV: probably GetMinFee
1244 2011-12-10 17:08:48 <ThomasV> ok
1245 2011-12-10 17:09:08 <BlueMatt> no, probably bitcoinrpc.cpp:getmemorypool
1246 2011-12-10 17:09:24 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: getmemorypool doesn't do anything special
1247 2011-12-10 17:09:26 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1248 2011-12-10 17:09:27 <BlueMatt> you probably dont want to modify your fee settings to make more txes high-prio, you probably just want to return more
1249 2011-12-10 17:09:40 <ThomasV> BlueMatt: indeed
1250 2011-12-10 17:09:45 <ThomasV> I do not mine, btw
1251 2011-12-10 17:09:49 <luke-jr> otoh, I don't recall seeing priorities in GetMinFee
1252 2011-12-10 17:10:21 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1253 2011-12-10 17:11:06 <luke-jr> main.cpp CreateNewBlock
1254 2011-12-10 17:11:20 <luke-jr> changing GetMinFee to force all to "free" might work too
1255 2011-12-10 17:11:27 <luke-jr> it seems priority affects fAllowFree
1256 2011-12-10 17:11:37 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1257 2011-12-10 17:13:39 <ThomasV> yeah CreateNewBlock is called from bitcoinrpc.cpp
1258 2011-12-10 17:16:21 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: happy?
1259 2011-12-10 17:16:24 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/556
1260 2011-12-10 17:16:50 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: sure. don't suppose you have the ability to reopen too? :P
1261 2011-12-10 17:16:57 <BlueMatt> nope, that I dont
1262 2011-12-10 17:17:02 <BlueMatt> I have no admin anything on github
1263 2011-12-10 17:18:23 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: thanks that worked out well for me you should mention that the file is located at /usr/bin/bitcoind this is obvious to people who use linux but not to new comers
1264 2011-12-10 17:18:55 <ThomasV> fg
1265 2011-12-10 17:19:25 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: its in your path, you dont have to specify a full /usr/bin/bitcoind, you can just call bitcoind
1266 2011-12-10 17:20:17 gavinandresen has joined
1267 2011-12-10 17:20:31 larsivi has joined
1268 2011-12-10 17:21:01 <Davincij15> BlueMatt: thanks good to know as I was use to using the binary from the folder I copied it to.
1269 2011-12-10 17:21:16 <luke-jr> …
1270 2011-12-10 17:21:35 <luke-jr> Davincij15: I don't think bitcoind documentation needs to be responsible for teaching people OS basics
1271 2011-12-10 17:21:51 <luke-jr> if you don't want to learn your OS, hire someone to do it for you
1272 2011-12-10 17:23:43 <Davincij15> luke-jr: No, but linux does not have a huge following so it's easy to assume that if you build something someone outside of linux world likes and wants to use that they will have an easier time if you provide a walk through to getting it working on linux.  But that's why you have a windows version I guess.
1273 2011-12-10 17:24:12 <luke-jr> Davincij15: Linux is the most popular server OS.
1274 2011-12-10 17:24:43 <luke-jr> and 2nd most popular desktop OS
1275 2011-12-10 17:25:38 <BlueMatt> 3rd desktop afaik
1276 2011-12-10 17:25:42 <BlueMatt> osx still beasts linux
1277 2011-12-10 17:25:48 <BlueMatt> last I heard
1278 2011-12-10 17:27:27 <Davincij15> luke-jr: Yes because if I used it I would have a job for life if I coded all of my scripts in Python.  No one at my office as a clue how linux works if they saw python script my CEO would ban linux from being used with good reason.  You can't have people hold a company hostage. Sure someone can learn it but it's a slow and difficult task.
1279 2011-12-10 17:27:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: last I heard, Linux > Mac on desktop
1280 2011-12-10 17:27:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: maybe if you split up GNOME and KDE…
1281 2011-12-10 17:28:00 pickett_ has joined
1282 2011-12-10 17:28:01 <luke-jr> Davincij15: easier to use than Windows
1283 2011-12-10 17:28:04 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: really, I thought it was the other way around, oh well just shows what I know
1284 2011-12-10 17:28:37 pickett has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1285 2011-12-10 17:28:38 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: there is a reason linux is the most popular server os by farrr
1286 2011-12-10 17:28:43 chrisb__ has joined
1287 2011-12-10 17:28:44 <Davincij15> luke-jr: I understand your opinion but I do not agree.
1288 2011-12-10 17:28:50 <luke-jr> Davincij15: because you are clueless
1289 2011-12-10 17:28:53 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: because its much easier to learn than any desktop os...
1290 2011-12-10 17:29:12 <BlueMatt> well that and its 1000x more secure than any desktop os
1291 2011-12-10 17:29:14 <Davincij15> luke-jr: Insulting me is another reason people should not use linux
1292 2011-12-10 17:29:33 <luke-jr> lol
1293 2011-12-10 17:29:38 <sipa> luke-jr: please
1294 2011-12-10 17:29:44 <Davincij15> This is the tipical reaction by most of its user base
1295 2011-12-10 17:29:48 <luke-jr> sipa: hey, ltns
1296 2011-12-10 17:30:00 <luke-jr> Davincij15: only to idiots who refuse to even give it a chance.
1297 2011-12-10 17:30:11 <luke-jr> sipa: thoughts on my revision of your version spec?
1298 2011-12-10 17:30:20 <sipa> the easiest system to work with is always the one you already know
1299 2011-12-10 17:30:39 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: RE: txinfo :  ACK on the best block hash, NACK on the memory pool numbers-- I think a getmemorypool RPC to dump all the txids in the memory pool would be a better way to go. I waffle on how much info getinfo should return, it is becoming a kitchen-sink call, which is usually a sign of bad design
1300 2011-12-10 17:30:39 <Davincij15> luke-jr: I am here and I am going to stay but I am having a hard time.
1301 2011-12-10 17:31:01 <luke-jr> sipa: that's a subjective view. objectively, the easiest is the one that is easiest to learn when you don't know any.
1302 2011-12-10 17:31:03 <BlueMatt> sipa: so true...
1303 2011-12-10 17:31:23 <sipa> luke-jr: that's a reasonable definition, but an excessively hard one to test in practice
1304 2011-12-10 17:31:24 <BlueMatt> the only thing /me ever recommends to people asking what computer to get is "what you know"
1305 2011-12-10 17:32:02 <luke-jr> Davincij15: all I'm saying is, if you're going to use Linux, you need to take the time to learn it
1306 2011-12-10 17:32:16 <sipa> gavinandresen: i agree, the calls are useful, but information specific for miners may be better off somewhere else
1307 2011-12-10 17:32:16 <luke-jr> sipa: there are a lot of people who have never used a computer before
1308 2011-12-10 17:32:31 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: what's the concern? size of getinfo replies? :/
1309 2011-12-10 17:32:35 <BlueMatt> Davincij15: can I ask why you have to run bitcoin on linux instead of windows anyway?
1310 2011-12-10 17:32:53 <sipa> luke-jr: and there will be one system they'll learn before the second one, to compare
1311 2011-12-10 17:33:04 <sipa> luke-jr: but we're getting philosophical
1312 2011-12-10 17:33:18 <luke-jr> sipa: so you have Group A learn KDE, and Group B learn Windows
1313 2011-12-10 17:33:38 <luke-jr> and test them on some common tasks
1314 2011-12-10 17:34:06 <luke-jr> in any case, though, I've never heard of a native Linux user switching to Windows and sayign it's easier
1315 2011-12-10 17:34:13 <luke-jr> otoh, you have plenty of examples of the opposite
1316 2011-12-10 17:34:16 <sipa> neither have I
1317 2011-12-10 17:34:20 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: concern is exactly what I said:  a method that returns a random set of stuff is usually a sign of bad design, and I don't want to make getinfo any worse....
1318 2011-12-10 17:34:26 <sipa> luke-jr: but I do know linux people that have switched to osx
1319 2011-12-10 17:35:17 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so if I move it to a getinfo-like "getgenerationinfo" it's ok?
1320 2011-12-10 17:35:28 <luke-jr> sipa: I didn't say Linux was easier than OS X. That's a harder call.
1321 2011-12-10 17:35:37 <BlueMatt> there is also a very different use-case for computers for the majority of people who shift from win32 to linux
1322 2011-12-10 17:35:49 <BlueMatt> my grandma is never gonna shift to linux
1323 2011-12-10 17:36:10 <sipa> BlueMatt: i learned my mom ubuntu
1324 2011-12-10 17:36:13 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: Or add a parameter to getinfo to say what you want to get.  Or something-- hence my comment that RPC changes should be discussed first, I'm sure there will be four different opinions on the best way to do it
1325 2011-12-10 17:36:34 <sipa> luke-jr: about the version numbers, haven't looked at it in detail, but i like the general idea of making adresses more human-friendly
1326 2011-12-10 17:36:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: respect, no way I could for my parents...
1327 2011-12-10 17:36:44 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I tried. Nobody is interested in taking time to discuss such straightforward changes.
1328 2011-12-10 17:37:00 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: why not?
1329 2011-12-10 17:37:03 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: then the feature isn't high enough priority to pull, in my opinion
1330 2011-12-10 17:37:20 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it's trivial and useful to some people.
1331 2011-12-10 17:37:27 <sipa> luke-jr: however, if we're going to break backward compatiblity, why not go all the way, and redesign addresses?
1332 2011-12-10 17:37:30 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: my parents a. have several programs filled with data they couldnt transfer to linux, b. dont have the free time to learn a new os
1333 2011-12-10 17:37:32 <gavinandresen> ... then they should be willing to take the time to argue for it...
1334 2011-12-10 17:37:34 <luke-jr> sipa: we just did
1335 2011-12-10 17:38:33 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: unfortunately, most people are happy just making patch soup
1336 2011-12-10 17:40:06 <sipa> luke-jr: if we're going for user-friendlyness, maybe the type/version info should be coded directly into a base58 character, instead of workaround via version bytes that still need encoding?
1337 2011-12-10 17:40:45 <luke-jr> sipa: then you can't store it in binary, and checksum it
1338 2011-12-10 17:40:55 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/695
1339 2011-12-10 17:41:00 <luke-jr> might as well get the ACK'd part in…
1340 2011-12-10 17:41:11 <sipa> luke-jr: i'd vote to replace the checksum by a base58 CRC
1341 2011-12-10 17:41:19 <sipa> done at the base58 number level
1342 2011-12-10 17:41:51 <luke-jr> sipa: in any case, this is only non-backward-compatible for rarely used stuff like sigs and testnet
1343 2011-12-10 17:42:04 <luke-jr> so long as we adopt it before sigs are GUI, it should be fine
1344 2011-12-10 17:42:08 <sipa> ah, right, you're not breaking normal addresses
1345 2011-12-10 17:42:53 <wumpus> pleast don't break backward compatibility for normal addresses :/
1346 2011-12-10 17:43:03 <sipa> wumpus: i agree we shouldn't
1347 2011-12-10 17:43:08 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: github aside, git merges it cleanly just fine
1348 2011-12-10 17:43:23 <luke-jr> wumpus: nobody is considering it I think
1349 2011-12-10 17:43:28 <wumpus> phew
1350 2011-12-10 17:43:37 <luke-jr> wumpus: my revision of sipa's scheme breaks compatibility with testnet, namecoin, and signmessage
1351 2011-12-10 17:43:43 <Davincij15> luke-jr: You said: Davincij15: all I'm saying is, if you're going to use Linux, you need to take the time to learn it
1352 2011-12-10 17:44:04 <sipa> luke-jr: signmessage currently doesn't even use base58
1353 2011-12-10 17:44:09 <luke-jr> sipa: oh, true :D
1354 2011-12-10 17:44:10 <wumpus> ok ,breaking testnet at least is no problem
1355 2011-12-10 17:44:24 <wumpus> namecoin could upset a few people
1356 2011-12-10 17:44:26 <Davincij15> The issue is the learning curve is difficult.
1357 2011-12-10 17:44:41 <Davincij15> but that's the way it is.
1358 2011-12-10 17:44:43 <luke-jr> wumpus: well, nobody is forcing namecoin to adopt it either
1359 2011-12-10 17:44:45 * BlueMatt doesnt see namecoin changing their addresses to match luke's new system
1360 2011-12-10 17:45:07 <wumpus> right, they can simply keep their addresses because they use different code base
1361 2011-12-10 17:45:30 <gavinandresen> For the record, I don't care what the numbers are.  Y'all let me know when it's decided...
1362 2011-12-10 17:45:34 * BlueMatt doesnt like the idea of a standard that no one follows
1363 2011-12-10 17:46:10 <Davincij15> luke-jr: the difficulty is increased with a culture of arrogance and superiourity complex that is felt by those that manage to understand it.
1364 2011-12-10 17:46:12 <wumpus> but why would we care what namecoin does?
1365 2011-12-10 17:46:27 <sipa> namecoin will most likely do whatever they like themselves
1366 2011-12-10 17:46:27 <luke-jr> the current namecoin version maps to: main, other network, Script hash
1367 2011-12-10 17:46:48 <sipa> but i wonder, could we do something along the lines of "if it starts with a 1, it's a base58-encoded address, with sha256 based checksum", otherwise the version/type info is encoded in the first base58 character(s), and the checksum is a base58 crc"
1368 2011-12-10 17:46:57 <wumpus> the only thing semi-important is that we don't accept namecoin addresses and they don't accept bitcoin addresses
1369 2011-12-10 17:47:06 <gavinandresen> sipa: bleuch
1370 2011-12-10 17:47:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: too complex, right?
1371 2011-12-10 17:47:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: thats more complicated though...
1372 2011-12-10 17:47:21 <sipa> i expected that response
1373 2011-12-10 17:47:24 <wumpus> sipa: too complicated
1374 2011-12-10 17:47:35 <gavinandresen> sipa: yeah, keep it simple.  Hopefully it will all be    web+bitcoin: URLs soon....
1375 2011-12-10 17:47:43 <sipa> agree
1376 2011-12-10 17:47:44 <luke-jr> under my proposal, no Bitcoin address will ever look like a Namecoin address, at least.
1377 2011-12-10 17:47:45 <wumpus> you shouldn't look at it before decoding base58 imo
1378 2011-12-10 17:47:47 <gavinandresen> Speaking of which:  Any of you know about web+ URLs?
1379 2011-12-10 17:47:54 <sipa> no?
1380 2011-12-10 17:48:17 <BlueMatt> can more people try to break https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/593 ?
1381 2011-12-10 17:48:18 <gavinandresen> It was mentioned at the bitcoin meetup Thursday-- new(?) standard that lets web apps handle the URL
1382 2011-12-10 17:48:20 <wumpus> I mean it's either base58-encoded or not, otherwise we generate so much complexity in parsing
1383 2011-12-10 17:48:43 <sipa> wumpus: the problem is that luke's proposal is exactly trying to make the encoded addresses give a particular look
1384 2011-12-10 17:48:57 <gavinandresen> ... which addresses a big concern I have with bitcoin: urls (because I think most people will be using web/phone wallets)
1385 2011-12-10 17:49:00 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: have you seen the chrome extension that handled bitcoin: uris via rpc like 5 months ago?
1386 2011-12-10 17:49:03 <sipa> and i agree that it would be advantageous if a human could distinguish them easily
1387 2011-12-10 17:49:28 <wumpus> addresses are just an opaque string, why would it have a particular "look"
1388 2011-12-10 17:49:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: are web+ urls supported by anything?
1389 2011-12-10 17:49:40 <luke-jr> sipa: all addresses beginning with N/M are "other network"
1390 2011-12-10 17:49:53 <wumpus> like uuids, I'm all for hiding them in as many places as possible, unless manual verification is really needed
1391 2011-12-10 17:49:55 <sipa> right, but you're talking about how they look
1392 2011-12-10 17:50:08 <sipa> if you want to control how they look, make the encoded work that way
1393 2011-12-10 17:50:10 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: dunno, haven't looked into it yet, that is why I was asking
1394 2011-12-10 17:50:24 <sipa> i'm not sure what the best thing is to do
1395 2011-12-10 17:50:26 ski_ has joined
1396 2011-12-10 17:50:35 <luke-jr> wumpus: it's easy to tell at a glance that a piece of data is an address
1397 2011-12-10 17:50:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Im not sure we should change away from standard uri/urls until the alternative is well-supported/in-use
1398 2011-12-10 17:51:04 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: because as it stands, browser plugins can easily support a uri/url now
1399 2011-12-10 17:51:10 <wumpus> I think the current URI scheme is fine
1400 2011-12-10 17:51:13 <sipa> imho "addresses-as-key-identifiers" and "addresses-as-destinations-for-transactions" should be separate as well :)
1401 2011-12-10 17:51:14 <BlueMatt> (and forward you to mtgox or wherever to pay)
1402 2011-12-10 17:51:19 * luke-jr sees no reason browser plugins can't take a bitcoin: URI and redirect to a website
1403 2011-12-10 17:51:36 <luke-jr> sipa: right, that's why I make sure they're visually different in my proposal too :P
1404 2011-12-10 17:51:41 dikidera has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1405 2011-12-10 17:51:44 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: browser plugins are a security risk and a pain-in-the-ass when they become incompatible due to version upgrades....
1406 2011-12-10 17:52:07 <sipa> luke-jr: hmm?
1407 2011-12-10 17:52:16 <sipa> i only see 0: public key hash
1408 2011-12-10 17:52:19 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: agreed, but for the moment we have no better alternative (that is popular enough to implement)
1409 2011-12-10 17:52:25 dikidera has joined
1410 2011-12-10 17:52:29 <wumpus> gavinandresen: amen on the security risk
1411 2011-12-10 17:52:34 <gavinandresen> I'm a little disappointed that you're dismissing the idea of web+ when you know nothing about it
1412 2011-12-10 17:52:51 <sipa> i have no idea what web+ is
1413 2011-12-10 17:53:02 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the fact that google turns up nothing is an indicator to me...
1414 2011-12-10 17:53:03 <wumpus> I'm not dismissing it, but it's hard to decide on something if we want something else every few months :P
1415 2011-12-10 17:53:06 <luke-jr> sipa: 12 = Private key
1416 2011-12-10 17:53:30 <wumpus> in the end I don't care, I'm ok with what you decide to be the bitcoin url scheme
1417 2011-12-10 17:53:31 <gavinandresen> wumpus: that's a good concern
1418 2011-12-10 17:53:32 <BlueMatt> anyone know if chrome webapps can register a url handler?
1419 2011-12-10 17:53:33 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: why is web+ trying to break a standard?
1420 2011-12-10 17:53:43 <wumpus> as long as its well-defined
1421 2011-12-10 17:53:48 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr txn_block_info * r3d12033c68ee bitcoind-personal/src/rpc.cpp: Add block_hash and block_index to transaction info http://tinyurl.com/84db8zz
1422 2011-12-10 17:53:49 <sipa> luke-jr: a key identifier is a hash of a public key, but it just refers to a key (like one you refer to when saying what so sign something with
1423 2011-12-10 17:53:59 <sipa> luke-jr: an address is a destination for a transaction
1424 2011-12-10 17:54:20 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: is + not allowed in the scheme part of URIs ?   I don't have the spec handy...
1425 2011-12-10 17:54:28 <sipa> and an address can be pay-to-script, pay-to-keyhash, pay-to-pubkey, ...
1426 2011-12-10 17:54:52 <luke-jr> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/timers.html#whitelisted-scheme
1427 2011-12-10 17:54:59 <luke-jr> "Note: This list can be changed. If there are schemes that should be added, please send feedback."
1428 2011-12-10 17:55:15 <luke-jr> just get WhatWG to add bitcoin to the list
1429 2011-12-10 17:55:17 <luke-jr> :P
1430 2011-12-10 17:55:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: although I see the issue, I do think that webapps will be able to register urls without web+ or any other non-standard
1431 2011-12-10 17:55:37 <gavinandresen> web+ reference:  http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/iana.html#web-scheme-prefix
1432 2011-12-10 17:55:47 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: google is pushing the whole webapps are now apps thing anyway, I bet they will be able to register urls...
1433 2011-12-10 17:55:52 <BlueMatt> (if they cant yet)
1434 2011-12-10 17:56:02 <wumpus> yes, I wonder why it isn't the case yet, I'd like to make email: point to gmail
1435 2011-12-10 17:56:23 <BlueMatt> http://updates.html5rocks.com/2011/06/Registering-a-custom-protocol-handler
1436 2011-12-10 17:56:26 <BlueMatt> looks like it can
1437 2011-12-10 17:56:32 <BlueMatt> oh, wait its web+...
1438 2011-12-10 17:56:34 <BlueMatt> well fuck me
1439 2011-12-10 17:56:57 <wumpus> yep seems there is an example of web+ at least :-)
1440 2011-12-10 17:56:58 * sipa ignores this request
1441 2011-12-10 17:57:11 imsaguy is now known as IneedtobuyMoneyP
1442 2011-12-10 17:57:25 IneedtobuyMoneyP is now known as Ineed2buyMoneyPa
1443 2011-12-10 17:57:34 <Diablo-D3> blueMatt: whats wrong with that?
1444 2011-12-10 17:57:44 <wumpus> so the only thing web+ is that it adds web+ before the protocol name?
1445 2011-12-10 17:57:46 Ineed2buyMoneyPa is now known as imsaguy
1446 2011-12-10 17:57:46 <Diablo-D3> infact, I wonder why chrome took so long to support that
1447 2011-12-10 17:57:55 <wumpus> so instead of bitcoin:  it'd be web+bitcoin: 
1448 2011-12-10 17:58:10 <Diablo-D3> oh
1449 2011-12-10 17:58:11 <Diablo-D3> wtf?
1450 2011-12-10 17:58:15 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck do you have to prefix it?
1451 2011-12-10 17:58:15 <BlueMatt> can a regular app register web+ as well?
1452 2011-12-10 17:58:17 <Diablo-D3> fuck chrome
1453 2011-12-10 17:58:29 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: its a w3c standard apparently (not google)
1454 2011-12-10 17:58:31 <Diablo-D3> guess what I can do in firefox
1455 2011-12-10 17:58:37 <wumpus> well that wouldn't be a huge change at least, we could keep the rest the same
1456 2011-12-10 17:58:53 <Diablo-D3> I can have a rss reader website register itself as my loader for rss feeds via mimetype
1457 2011-12-10 17:59:01 <Diablo-D3> no web+ faggotry here.
1458 2011-12-10 17:59:05 <luke-jr> wumpus: so now the website needs to know if I use a web-wallet or regular wallet?
1459 2011-12-10 17:59:16 netxshare is now known as dhw
1460 2011-12-10 17:59:21 <wumpus> no, the regular wallet could also register web+bitcoin? (I don't know)
1461 2011-12-10 17:59:31 <luke-jr> wumpus: that'd be retarded
1462 2011-12-10 17:59:41 <wumpus> why?
1463 2011-12-10 17:59:44 <BlueMatt> wumpus: doesnt look like it...
1464 2011-12-10 17:59:47 <Diablo-D3> yeah, I say we just register it without web+ and if chrome cant do it right, fuck them
1465 2011-12-10 17:59:48 <BlueMatt> (which is just ass-backwards)
1466 2011-12-10 17:59:49 <Diablo-D3> use firefox.
1467 2011-12-10 17:59:53 <luke-jr> they should just require the user to confirm a scary-looking dialog for non-whitelisted schemes
1468 2011-12-10 17:59:55 <BlueMatt> though firefox lets you register bitcoin:
1469 2011-12-10 17:59:55 <wumpus> huh that's backwards indeed
1470 2011-12-10 17:59:57 denisx has joined
1471 2011-12-10 18:00:26 <cjdelisle> quick question, how many registers are available in a typical radeon?
1472 2011-12-10 18:00:38 <sipa> kinda breaks the nice transparency when you need to encode knowledge about whether it's web app or real app into the url
1473 2011-12-10 18:00:50 <wumpus> sipa: yep, sounds really strange
1474 2011-12-10 18:01:04 <gavinandresen> Diablo-D3: stop being an idiot.  You obviously know nothing about web+, and yet you're spouting off about it. Maybe there are perfectly good reasons for it
1475 2011-12-10 18:01:05 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: 1024 128 bit wide registers per CU.
1476 2011-12-10 18:01:09 <wumpus> it means any shop page would have to know what kind of wallet you use...
1477 2011-12-10 18:01:11 <cjdelisle> thanks
1478 2011-12-10 18:01:18 <BlueMatt> also ass-backwards if you cant have a way to register native apps to handle bitcoin: and if a webapp registers bitcoin: all of a sudden your native app is broken...
1479 2011-12-10 18:01:24 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: Im a webdev, I know whats stupid just by reading about it.
1480 2011-12-10 18:01:45 <Diablo-D3> I dont want my strings polluted with web+ shit.
1481 2011-12-10 18:01:49 <BlueMatt> well maybe when it matures a bit...
1482 2011-12-10 18:01:59 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: tell WhatWG
1483 2011-12-10 18:02:06 <Diablo-D3> I am not beholden to WhatWG.
1484 2011-12-10 18:02:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it's not even supposed to be implemented yet
1485 2011-12-10 18:02:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and they're asking for feedback
1486 2011-12-10 18:02:16 <wumpus> well it sounds like an OK idea, but seems the practical implementation is lacking
1487 2011-12-10 18:02:17 <Diablo-D3> If they can't do it right, then implementations should ignore them.
1488 2011-12-10 18:02:27 <luke-jr> I vote we all email them and say the whitelist concept is retarded
1489 2011-12-10 18:02:30 <wumpus> whatwg is good in making impractical standards :P
1490 2011-12-10 18:02:31 <Diablo-D3> they do it for every other standard, might as well do it here
1491 2011-12-10 18:02:37 <luke-jr> and that if they do keep it, add bitcoin to the whitelist :P
1492 2011-12-10 18:02:49 <Diablo-D3> whitelists are for fags
1493 2011-12-10 18:03:09 <Diablo-D3> it should be a blacklist of protocols you cant hijack
1494 2011-12-10 18:03:12 <wumpus> yes whitelists are a bad idea, they leave open no room for easy future extension/innovation
1495 2011-12-10 18:03:15 <BlueMatt> send a pull request to chromium white-listing bitcoin: :)
1496 2011-12-10 18:03:21 <wumpus> it's the way the web should not be
1497 2011-12-10 18:03:33 <Diablo-D3> man
1498 2011-12-10 18:03:37 <Diablo-D3> I should make my own web browser
1499 2011-12-10 18:03:45 <luke-jr> I'm going to suggest that instead of throwing a SecurityException off the bat, they first allow the user to approve it
1500 2011-12-10 18:03:46 <Diablo-D3> fuck, I'll make my own desktop environment.
1501 2011-12-10 18:03:57 <wumpus> no no no reinventing wheels please :)
1502 2011-12-10 18:03:58 * Diablo-D3 has balls of steel.
1503 2011-12-10 18:04:05 DontMindMe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1504 2011-12-10 18:04:09 DontMindMe has joined
1505 2011-12-10 18:04:11 <dikidera> Diablo-D3:must suck
1506 2011-12-10 18:04:12 <luke-jr> a new DE would be welcome, but not in Java
1507 2011-12-10 18:04:21 <Diablo-D3> dikidera: I dunno, women come running when they hear the clanging.
1508 2011-12-10 18:04:28 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
1509 2011-12-10 18:04:46 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so did that txn_block_info merge for you?
1510 2011-12-10 18:05:01 <dikidera> Yeah, but I hear they run faster if they are gold ;)
1511 2011-12-10 18:05:02 <luke-jr> (if not, I suspect you forgot to push again :P)
1512 2011-12-10 18:05:28 <luke-jr> /ignore Diablo-D3 dikidera
1513 2011-12-10 18:05:33 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I'm not home, so I'm not merging.  And I won't merge until I start merging 0.6 changes.
1514 2011-12-10 18:05:49 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: Im pretty sure dikidera is not a flag in xchat.
1515 2011-12-10 18:05:51 <dikidera> luke-jr:now,now
1516 2011-12-10 18:05:56 <wumpus> when will we start merging 0.6 changes?
1517 2011-12-10 18:06:04 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: dunno what that's waiting for :P
1518 2011-12-10 18:06:32 <gavinandresen> wumpus: I want to put out a 0.5.0.1rc1 early next week to fix some 0.5.0 warts.
1519 2011-12-10 18:06:45 <gavinandresen> (like rpcssl not being compiled in....)
1520 2011-12-10 18:06:50 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: based on stable:0.5.x? O.o
1521 2011-12-10 18:06:54 <wumpus> ok yes that sounds like a good idea
1522 2011-12-10 18:07:01 <luke-jr> oh, just build changes for v0.5.0?
1523 2011-12-10 18:07:19 <luke-jr> might as well make it part of 0.5.1 IMO
1524 2011-12-10 18:07:23 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: no, bugfixes too, like the black tooltips change
1525 2011-12-10 18:07:24 <wumpus> why 0.5.0.1 instead of 0.5.1?
1526 2011-12-10 18:07:33 <luke-jr> just commit the fix to master, and I can backport to 0.5.x etc
1527 2011-12-10 18:07:35 <gavinandresen> ask sipa about version numbering
1528 2011-12-10 18:07:40 <wumpus> I don't like too many .'s in version numbers
1529 2011-12-10 18:07:47 <sipa> i'd go for 0.5.1
1530 2011-12-10 18:07:49 <luke-jr> sipa's reinventing standard version systems too? :/
1531 2011-12-10 18:08:07 <luke-jr> :p
1532 2011-12-10 18:08:11 <sipa> and go to 0.5.99 before merging for 0.6
1533 2011-12-10 18:08:25 <wumpus> ok with me
1534 2011-12-10 18:08:27 <gavinandresen> ok, sipa is version-number-king
1535 2011-12-10 18:08:27 <sipa> so 0.5.x can continue if necessarily for a stable branch
1536 2011-12-10 18:08:32 <luke-jr> sipa: anyhow, is my proposal for address versions good enough, or do you have any ideas for making it better?
1537 2011-12-10 18:08:52 <luke-jr> sipa: 0.5.x is already a stable branch :P
1538 2011-12-10 18:09:19 <wumpus> I agree with making sipa king of version numbers, stops the need to argue about them :P
1539 2011-12-10 18:09:30 <sipa> wow, what an honor
1540 2011-12-10 18:09:34 <wumpus> hahahah
1541 2011-12-10 18:09:34 <luke-jr> https://gitorious.org/+bitcoin-stable-developers/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable/commits/0.5.x
1542 2011-12-10 18:09:46 <gavinandresen> All Hail King Sipa!
1543 2011-12-10 18:09:48 <BlueMatt> na, then it will be constant complaints from luke...
1544 2011-12-10 18:09:49 <dikidera> sipa:the mozilla team must hire you
1545 2011-12-10 18:10:03 <luke-jr> lol dikidera made a funny
1546 2011-12-10 18:10:54 <wumpus> mozilla let the marketing department in charge of version numbers, that always leads to version inflation
1547 2011-12-10 18:11:32 <BlueMatt> google doesnt have a marketing department and they have version inflation...
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1549 2011-12-10 18:12:27 <luke-jr> sipa: IMO, gavin et al should just go ahead with 0.6, and build 0.5.1 from the bugfix-only 0.5.x branch :P
1550 2011-12-10 18:12:28 <wumpus> okay, maybe overconfident engineers in that case
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1553 2011-12-10 18:13:10 <sipa> luke-jr: i like the idea behind the proposal, but i'm not sure whether it's worth causing extra confusion for
1554 2011-12-10 18:13:19 <wumpus> luke-jr I think the current plan is ok
1555 2011-12-10 18:13:19 diki is now known as Guest93315
1556 2011-12-10 18:13:30 <luke-jr> sipa: which proposal?
1557 2011-12-10 18:13:32 Guest93315 is now known as dikidera2
1558 2011-12-10 18:13:36 <luke-jr> wumpus: that is the current plan IMO :P
1559 2011-12-10 18:13:36 <sipa> luke-jr: your version numbers
1560 2011-12-10 18:14:00 <luke-jr> sipa: it reduces confusion, is the purpose :P
1561 2011-12-10 18:14:02 <dikidera2> my ISP has been nothing but shi* today
1562 2011-12-10 18:14:04 <wumpus> no, th current plan is to do a release from the current master before merging to 0.6.0
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1564 2011-12-10 18:14:12 <luke-jr> actually, there is a way to make it Namecoin-compatible…
1565 2011-12-10 18:14:14 <dikidera2> I've had more disconnects today than all the combined years of my previous ISP
1566 2011-12-10 18:15:29 <sipa> luke-jr: reminds me of this: http://xkcd.com/927/
1567 2011-12-10 18:15:42 <sipa> the intentions are always good
1568 2011-12-10 18:16:03 dikidera2 is now known as diki
1569 2011-12-10 18:16:13 <luke-jr> sipa: except there is significant dislike of the earlier revision
1570 2011-12-10 18:16:24 <luke-jr> which may lead to adoption problems
1571 2011-12-10 18:16:27 * BlueMatt still doesnt understand the difference between mini and micro usb...
1572 2011-12-10 18:16:29 <luke-jr> (currently no system is adopted)
1573 2011-12-10 18:16:33 <sipa> BlueMatt: thickness
1574 2011-12-10 18:16:35 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: they're different shapes
1575 2011-12-10 18:17:01 <BlueMatt> not physical, but why the hell two were created
1576 2011-12-10 18:17:16 <BlueMatt> when its so damn similar there really is no difference in use-case
1577 2011-12-10 18:17:19 <sipa> luke-jr: agree - there are only ad-hoc version bytes used; 0, 128, 111, namecoin stuff
1578 2011-12-10 18:17:44 <sipa> soon maybe 2 and 109
1579 2011-12-10 18:18:03 <luke-jr> 128?
1580 2011-12-10 18:18:08 <sipa> for private keys
1581 2011-12-10 18:18:11 <luke-jr> sipa: users will reject 2 at least
1582 2011-12-10 18:18:23 <sipa> it's not been merged yet, so we could still change that
1583 2011-12-10 18:18:29 <luke-jr> k
1584 2011-12-10 18:18:38 <luke-jr> I just sent out one last revision to make it Namecoin-compatible.
1585 2011-12-10 18:18:39 <sipa> but it seems many people have already adopted the 128-as-privkey standard
1586 2011-12-10 18:18:53 <luke-jr> hmm
1587 2011-12-10 18:18:59 <luke-jr> maybe I should make 128 reserved instead of 64 then
1588 2011-12-10 18:19:16 <luke-jr> wait no
1589 2011-12-10 18:19:19 <luke-jr> 128 is still reserved
1590 2011-12-10 18:19:30 <luke-jr> so we can keep some legacy compatibility for a while
1591 2011-12-10 18:20:17 <diki> Linux and windows aside, iOS or Android?
1592 2011-12-10 18:20:18 <luke-jr> so private keys should be changed to version 13 ('6')
1593 2011-12-10 18:20:24 <luke-jr> diki: webOS
1594 2011-12-10 18:20:54 <BlueMatt> diki: maebo
1595 2011-12-10 18:21:06 <luke-jr> sipa: simple enough? standardize private keys (Bitcoin mainnet) on version 13, but accept 128 as input for some time?
1596 2011-12-10 18:21:09 <diki> BlueMatt:you got it a bit wrong there
1597 2011-12-10 18:21:18 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Maemo is long dead
1598 2011-12-10 18:21:30 <BlueMatt> (it was sarcastic...)
1599 2011-12-10 18:22:59 <sipa> luke-jr: if you could still swap 2 and 4? then nothing needs changing in the op_eval code?
1600 2011-12-10 18:23:21 <sipa> wait, do you still have an actual version number in there?
1601 2011-12-10 18:24:02 <sipa> agree, we never used that, and it's not entirely clear what it would be used for
1602 2011-12-10 18:24:19 <sipa> except if we ever move away from secp256k1 to some other encryption system
1603 2011-12-10 18:24:39 <luke-jr> sipa: version 2 is not usable.
1604 2011-12-10 18:24:47 <sipa> why?
1605 2011-12-10 18:24:58 <luke-jr> it can begin with any of these: 2opqrstuvwxyz
1606 2011-12-10 18:25:28 <sipa> bah
1607 2011-12-10 18:26:31 <sipa> is that list correct?
1608 2011-12-10 18:26:54 <sipa> version 128 (private keys) are turned into '5's in base58
1609 2011-12-10 18:27:20 <luke-jr> yes
1610 2011-12-10 18:27:33 <luke-jr> oh?
1611 2011-12-10 18:27:38 <sipa> according to your list it's "t"
1612 2011-12-10 18:28:03 <sipa> wait
1613 2011-12-10 18:28:11 <sipa> maybe that depends on the amount of data that follows, maybe?
1614 2011-12-10 18:28:35 <luke-jr> I'm using Gavin's base58 python code
1615 2011-12-10 18:28:37 <luke-jr> hmm
1616 2011-12-10 18:28:51 <luke-jr> crap
1617 2011-12-10 18:28:53 <luke-jr> it does
1618 2011-12-10 18:28:54 <luke-jr> base58 sucks
1619 2011-12-10 18:28:59 <sipa> i really hate that base58 encoding
1620 2011-12-10 18:29:17 * luke-jr votes we go with replacing base58 with something sane.
1621 2011-12-10 18:29:26 <copumpkin> baseton
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1624 2011-12-10 18:29:46 <sipa> luke-jr: i wouldn't mind, really
1625 2011-12-10 18:29:55 <sipa> copumpkin: what's that?
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1628 2011-12-10 18:30:49 <sipa> oh, right
1629 2011-12-10 18:30:57 <copumpkin> :)
1630 2011-12-10 18:37:40 <sipa> luke-jr: maybe we can conclude that as long as it's the current base58, it's quite hard to make it humanly-distinshuishable?
1631 2011-12-10 18:38:06 <sipa> so maybe we shouldn't try
1632 2011-12-10 18:38:18 <gavinandresen> I vote for that.
1633 2011-12-10 18:38:34 <gavinandresen> ... but like I said, I don't really care
1634 2011-12-10 18:41:14 <sipa> i've been refactoring some of the low-level network stuff (split off a CIP and CIPPort from CAddress, preliminary IPv6 support, ...) lately
1635 2011-12-10 18:41:23 <sipa> i hope to get that ready for 0.6
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1637 2011-12-10 18:43:19 <luke-jr> sipa: yes, but human distinguishability is an important feature
1638 2011-12-10 18:43:40 <luke-jr> sipa: important enough that if given the choice, people would choose to make version numbers arbitrary.
1639 2011-12-10 18:43:50 <sipa> i agree there
1640 2011-12-10 18:45:01 <gavinandresen> See y'all Monday, I'll be mostly travelling between now and then
1641 2011-12-10 18:45:18 <k9quaint> luke-jr:  you should upgrade to base-59 and use Prince's symbol as the extra encode
1642 2011-12-10 18:45:24 <luke-jr> …
1643 2011-12-10 18:45:41 <sipa> but i think the only solution is using something very differnt, like maybe prefixing the base58 code with some text ("PKH" for public key hashes, "PRV" for private keys, "SCH" for script hashes, ...), or something URL based, or not base58 at all, or ...
1644 2011-12-10 18:45:44 <gavinandresen> k9quaint: good idea. What's the unicode codepoint for that?
1645 2011-12-10 18:45:56 <luke-jr> base 58 itself is a good idea
1646 2011-12-10 18:46:02 <luke-jr> but the other details in ours suck
1647 2011-12-10 18:46:22 <k9quaint> gavinandresen: clearly, we need a new character encoding scheme to support it ;D
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1649 2011-12-10 18:46:50 <k9quaint> sheesh, all I suggested was rewriting unicode :
1650 2011-12-10 18:46:51 <k9quaint> :P
1651 2011-12-10 18:47:56 * sipa -> food
1652 2011-12-10 18:52:25 <diki> Invalid method "food".
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1656 2011-12-10 18:56:39 <luke-jr> no matter what we do with base 58's input, it's NOT going to be consistent
1657 2011-12-10 18:56:46 <luke-jr> since it's not based on bits.
1658 2011-12-10 18:56:52 <luke-jr> 58 factors to 29 and 2
1659 2011-12-10 18:57:23 <luke-jr> We could get to 64 by adding the Tonal digits… <.<
1660 2011-12-10 18:59:59 devrandom has joined
1661 2011-12-10 19:03:18 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
1662 2011-12-10 19:03:19 <gribble> 156966
1663 2011-12-10 19:05:32 <luke-jr> no objections? great
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1673 2011-12-10 19:44:23 <the_batman> !seen phantomcircuit
1674 2011-12-10 19:44:24 <gribble> phantomcircuit was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 12 hours, 24 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <phantomcircuit> theymos, hazah
1675 2011-12-10 19:44:33 <spaola> the_batman, phantomcircuit is right here!
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1679 2011-12-10 19:56:53 <phantomcircuit> the_batman, hey sorry for not getting back to your right away, i had a bunch of stuff come up all at once
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1697 2011-12-10 20:44:25 <luke-jr> oh great
1698 2011-12-10 20:44:34 <luke-jr> latest Ubuntu no longer has bdb4.8 C++ header
1699 2011-12-10 20:44:55 <BlueMatt> see my ppa
1700 2011-12-10 20:45:20 <BlueMatt> https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
1701 2011-12-10 20:45:25 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1702 2011-12-10 20:45:29 <BlueMatt> (specifically the db4.8++ packages for oneiric
1703 2011-12-10 20:45:31 <BlueMatt> )
1704 2011-12-10 20:46:50 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you have the header?
1705 2011-12-10 20:47:56 <BlueMatt> I have the whole packages (the entire db4.8++ stuff was removed)
1706 2011-12-10 20:48:46 <luke-jr> …
1707 2011-12-10 20:48:49 <luke-jr> I only want the header
1708 2011-12-10 20:49:01 <BlueMatt> well then download the package and extract the header
1709 2011-12-10 20:50:48 <luke-jr> I just installed the ++ part from natty <.<
1710 2011-12-10 20:51:05 <BlueMatt> that works too...
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