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   2 2011-12-13 00:00:56 <cjdelisle> actually if someone wanted to donate money to bitcoin development, the thing to do would be pay someone to make a set of functional tests and then give awards to whoever makes those tests execute faster.
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   4 2011-12-13 00:01:20 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: Does it matter how fast they run?
   5 2011-12-13 00:01:25 <BlueMatt> or just set goals..ie SPV->500$ bounty
   6 2011-12-13 00:01:26 <gmaxwell> I mean - computing time is cheap.
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  11 2011-12-13 00:01:43 <BlueMatt> there used to be bounties for bitcoin code, what ever happened to that model?
  12 2011-12-13 00:01:46 <cjdelisle> faster tests -> faster bitcoin -> happier users
  13 2011-12-13 00:02:05 <gmaxwell> oh oh, I follow. Not speeding up the tests themselves but the underlying code.
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  15 2011-12-13 00:02:25 <cjdelisle> ahh right, I remember the bounties discussion re it preventing collaboration and such
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  19 2011-12-13 00:03:09 <BlueMatt> like there is that much collaboration on large features anyway
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  21 2011-12-13 00:04:00 <cjdelisle> /nod yea in my experience most major development is done by one dev.
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  24 2011-12-13 00:04:44 <BlueMatt> well if you want to get a big feature done, making a git tree and having more than 2-3 people work on it is just gonna result in more headache than its worth
  25 2011-12-13 00:04:58 <BlueMatt> you are better off having each work on one feature and then merging it at the end
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  27 2011-12-13 00:05:15 <cjdelisle> lots of "write in cave, release to world finishedish" is the standard
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  29 2011-12-13 00:07:19 <BlueMatt> yea and for better or for worse, bounties dont change that (too much)
  30 2011-12-13 00:07:26 <BlueMatt> in some cases they do, but only if its a really huge project
  31 2011-12-13 00:07:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: wallet encryption was somewhat collaboration :)
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  33 2011-12-13 00:08:31 <BlueMatt> sipa: that is the way it normally is, one person write it, other people comment and fix what is broken (which in the case of wallet encryption just happened to be more broken than working...)
  34 2011-12-13 00:09:00 <BlueMatt> (or I guess in the case of wallet encryption jgarzik wrote it and I made it better until I released it in a still mostly-broken state)
  35 2011-12-13 00:09:52 <BlueMatt> that and you provided the framework with CWallet...
  36 2011-12-13 00:10:02 <BlueMatt> anyway, you still get the point...
  37 2011-12-13 00:10:07 <sipa> yeah
  38 2011-12-13 00:11:01 <BlueMatt> and it wouldnt have happened differently if there were a bounty on wallet encryption
  39 2011-12-13 00:11:14 <BlueMatt> (which Im still confused as to why there never was, I mean there was one on UPnP...)
  40 2011-12-13 00:12:37 <cjdelisle> I think the reason why there isn't a lot of collaboration here or anywhere is because when you have a vision of how something should work, you can't really communicate it, or even validate that it isn't a flawed design, without putting it in code
  41 2011-12-13 00:12:51 <BlueMatt> very true
  42 2011-12-13 00:12:52 <gmaxwell> ding ding.
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  44 2011-12-13 00:13:35 <gmaxwell> 99% of the work is actually making it work. The 1% of blabbing about things in general we have in spades in any case.
  45 2011-12-13 00:14:10 <BlueMatt> there always has been an oddly high talk to code ratio in bitcoin...
  46 2011-12-13 00:14:29 <sipa> haha, yes
  47 2011-12-13 00:14:47 * cjdelisle is dealing with a design flaw in his project which will require changes, which require redesign, which requires more careful planning ....
  48 2011-12-13 00:14:48 <BlueMatt> implementation details have been discussed over and over again months ago for stuff that probably wont get implemented for months...
  49 2011-12-13 00:15:16 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: heh
  50 2011-12-13 00:15:18 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: indeed
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  95 2011-12-13 01:46:05 <batouzo> found a bug in Radeon driver in 3.1.4 causing memory corruption. you jelly?
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 109 2011-12-13 02:21:46 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r4a3b73747ea6 / (4 files in 4 dirs): big_number block_work(bits) http://tinyurl.com/d89j5ce
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 124 2011-12-13 02:57:10 <xenland> Ello mates. Anyone have issues with installing Bitcoin on Angstrom or shall I except it to be pretty easy?
 125 2011-12-13 02:57:16 <xenland> epect*
 126 2011-12-13 02:57:18 <xenland> expect*
 127 2011-12-13 02:57:26 <BlueMatt> Angstrom???
 128 2011-12-13 02:57:44 <luke-jr> xenland: Angstrom still around?
 129 2011-12-13 02:57:45 <xenland> Angstrom Linux for Emedded devices like for cellphones and similar chips
 130 2011-12-13 02:57:48 <BlueMatt> I'd highly doubt anyone has installed bitcoin on that...
 131 2011-12-13 02:58:00 <xenland> Interesting
 132 2011-12-13 02:58:20 <luke-jr> xenland: anyhow, I expect bitcoind would just work for ARM and nothing else, and Bitcoin-Qt and wxBitcoin might be more complex
 133 2011-12-13 02:58:32 <luke-jr> in any case, running a Bitcoin node on a phone is stupid
 134 2011-12-13 02:58:42 <xenland> BeagleBone
 135 2011-12-13 02:58:48 <xenland> not phone
 136 2011-12-13 02:58:54 <xenland> I'm just doing it for fun
 137 2011-12-13 02:59:02 <xenland> and learning of course
 138 2011-12-13 02:59:04 <luke-jr> I've tested Bitcoin-Qt on my Nokia N900 handheld
 139 2011-12-13 02:59:18 <xenland> And?
 140 2011-12-13 02:59:29 <luke-jr> more or less works
 141 2011-12-13 02:59:52 <xenland> oh thats the same processor wikipedia says. Cool.
 142 2011-12-13 02:59:58 <xenland> My idea is to run Bitcoind daemon
 143 2011-12-13 03:00:08 <xenland> and then interface with RPC protocal or somthing similar
 144 2011-12-13 03:00:25 <xenland> I plan on doing something big with the beaglboard unbitcoin related but would also be cool if Bitcoin could run on it
 145 2011-12-13 03:00:56 <xenland> --------
 146 2011-12-13 03:01:05 <xenland> More or less works probubly slow on GUI
 147 2011-12-13 03:01:07 <xenland> albet
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 150 2011-12-13 03:13:13 <lianj> xenland: it works on arm. had it running on a dockstar (for fun)
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 152 2011-12-13 03:13:42 <luke-jr> I think it probably only works in LE mode
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 154 2011-12-13 03:16:05 <xenland> le mode. Never heard of it
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 158 2011-12-13 03:16:38 <lianj> little endian
 159 2011-12-13 03:17:00 <xenland> is like that a compile option?
 160 2011-12-13 03:18:16 <lianj> no, its about the cpu
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 174 2011-12-13 03:57:25 <xenland> good to know
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 186 2011-12-13 04:36:59 <CIA-100> bitcoin: various * rfc7dd3..472037 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/helperscripts/bitcoin-otc-gpg-eauth-mirc.mrc: (8 commits) http://tinyurl.com/7y8oo2e
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 196 2011-12-13 05:26:37 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * ref36104b89a0 gentoo/net-p2p/ (4 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind and net-p2p/wxbitcoin: remove useless myP var http://tinyurl.com/d7hnroy
 197 2011-12-13 05:26:41 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rfc748d9370dd gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (4 files): net-p2p/bitcoind: 0.4.2_rc1, 0.5.0.1_rc1, and 0.5.1_rc1 http://tinyurl.com/cjhh5y9
 198 2011-12-13 05:26:41 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rad94e37c3f04 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (3 files): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt: 0.5.0.1_rc1 and 0.5.1_rc1 http://tinyurl.com/c6m3kpo
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 202 2011-12-13 05:41:42 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r308e8e404b55 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (4 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind: fix 0.4.2_rc1 and 9999 http://tinyurl.com/7uvc6rv
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 206 2011-12-13 05:55:41 <xenland> I'm trying to compile Bitcoin on a ARM processor I've been told I can some how compile on my native computer and then move the binary files over. But how to i tell the compiler I want it to be angstrom?
 207 2011-12-13 05:55:55 <xenland> (ARM processor is taking hours to compile)
 208 2011-12-13 05:56:12 <xenland> Just for prereq too
 209 2011-12-13 05:57:30 <luke-jr> xenland: bah, coward :P
 210 2011-12-13 05:57:48 <tcatm> that's called cross compiling. usually you need to setup a "toolchain" for your target
 211 2011-12-13 05:58:00 <xenland> Hmm I'll look up toolchain. Thanks!
 212 2011-12-13 05:58:05 <luke-jr> in the case of Angstrom, it's called OpenEmbedded
 213 2011-12-13 05:58:30 <luke-jr> you can try http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n900/packages/hardfp/gcc45/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt-0.5.0.tbz2 if you want :P
 214 2011-12-13 05:58:35 <luke-jr> looks like I didn't do bitcoind yet
 215 2011-12-13 05:59:01 <luke-jr> dunno if Angstrom used hardfloat yet tho
 216 2011-12-13 05:59:25 <xenland> not sure either
 217 2011-12-13 05:59:37 <xenland> with this toolchain. Will i have to manually setup symlinks?
 218 2011-12-13 05:59:48 <xenland> For instance. Boost is taking sooo long to compile
 219 2011-12-13 06:00:07 <luke-jr> xenland: to cross-compile with OE, you basically need to compile *everything* from scratch on your desktop
 220 2011-12-13 06:00:30 <xenland> okay that answers what i was just about to ask aswell too
 221 2011-12-13 06:00:30 <luke-jr> and write fancy scripts to compile bitcoind for you
 222 2011-12-13 06:00:37 <tcatm> you could rent a fast EC2 instance :)
 223 2011-12-13 06:01:00 <luke-jr> tcatm: OE is extremely memory and disk hungry ofc
 224 2011-12-13 06:01:03 <xenland> @tcatm its the processor it self. I have a super fast i7core that could compile everything in an hour
 225 2011-12-13 06:01:25 <xenland> the arm processor is just taking for ever just for one prereq.... sigh
 226 2011-12-13 06:01:25 <luke-jr> xenland: I run Gentoo on my N900 and desktop, and use distcc
 227 2011-12-13 06:01:42 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * r0317358d652b gentoo/net-p2p/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into maintree http://tinyurl.com/88tqnxz
 228 2011-12-13 06:02:44 <xenland> I dunno if i should venture off into to toolchaining sounds like it will take me longer to learn how to set that up then it will to just let the arm compiler do its thing. But I'll keep toolchain compiling in mind if I get any more anxious
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 231 2011-12-13 06:04:21 <xenland> thanks for pointing me in the correct direction tho thanks mates. I'll be researching this for sure
 232 2011-12-13 06:04:47 <tcatm> you could also get a fast ARM multicore cpu :)
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 234 2011-12-13 06:05:37 <luke-jr> tcatm: not the same ARM :P
 235 2011-12-13 06:08:25 <tcatm> that's not a huge problem if you set the compiler flags right
 236 2011-12-13 06:13:33 <luke-jr> well, the compiler for a dual-core ARM isn't going to be the right one for a single-core ARM
 237 2011-12-13 06:13:37 <luke-jr> you'd need a cross-compiler
 238 2011-12-13 06:14:06 <luke-jr> (not because of the core count difference, but because of the instruction differences)
 239 2011-12-13 06:15:05 <xenland> haha
 240 2011-12-13 06:15:14 <xenland> I'll just wait.... for it to compile and then save the image
 241 2011-12-13 06:19:43 <luke-jr> xenland: just build a bitcoind-0.5.1_rc1 for you
 242 2011-12-13 06:19:52 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n900/packages/hardfp/gcc45/net-p2p/bitcoind-0.5.1_rc1.tbz2
 243 2011-12-13 06:20:28 <luke-jr> hold
 244 2011-12-13 06:20:30 <xenland> wha?
 245 2011-12-13 06:20:32 <xenland> I'll try it out
 246 2011-12-13 06:20:34 <xenland> thanks
 247 2011-12-13 06:20:42 <luke-jr> it's still uploading
 248 2011-12-13 06:20:46 <xenland> okay
 249 2011-12-13 06:20:50 <luke-jr> you'll need boost stuff ofc
 250 2011-12-13 06:20:59 <luke-jr> should be able to find it in the same dir structure
 251 2011-12-13 06:21:39 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r7ae914f6aab2 gentoo/net-p2p/ (8 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoin{-qt,d}: add ~arm keyword to 0.5* http://tinyurl.com/c6tn8p9
 252 2011-12-13 06:21:55 <xenland> So I should just let Boost compile and install.
 253 2011-12-13 06:22:08 <xenland> and then after that try using your Bitcoin client from their?
 254 2011-12-13 06:23:05 <luke-jr> if you want
 255 2011-12-13 06:23:09 <luke-jr> or grab my boost from there too
 256 2011-12-13 06:23:18 <luke-jr> but no guarantees these binaries are compatible
 257 2011-12-13 06:23:27 <luke-jr> they're build with GCC 4.5 and hardfloat
 258 2011-12-13 06:26:13 <xenland> awsome
 259 2011-12-13 06:26:16 <xenland> I'll see what happens
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 308 2011-12-13 08:47:32 <midnightmagic> is anyone still running an addnode group of feeless/special txn mining? i want to join it.
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 347 2011-12-13 11:22:05 <graingert> is there a tool, similar to firesheep that automatically replaces bitcoin addresses sent in the clear with generated client ones?
 348 2011-12-13 11:22:23 <graingert> I know it's possible - just wondering if anyone's done it
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 358 2011-12-13 12:05:15 <SomeoneWeird> 0_O
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 364 2011-12-13 12:37:41 neo2 has joined
 365 2011-12-13 12:37:56 <neo2> hi
 366 2011-12-13 12:38:01 <neo2> so, how's the "Hash 160" different from the BTC Address?
 367 2011-12-13 12:39:14 <cjdelisle> IIRC the btc address is the base58 of the hash160 (which is the ripmd160 of the sha256 of the key)
 368 2011-12-13 12:39:24 <Diablo-D3> iirc btc addresses, the kind me and you use, are base 58 textual representations of the real ripmed160 signature
 369 2011-12-13 12:39:31 chrisb__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 370 2011-12-13 12:40:01 * cjdelisle defers
 371 2011-12-13 12:40:24 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: and no
 372 2011-12-13 12:40:44 <Diablo-D3> I think the ripmed160 signature is of the edcda key
 373 2011-12-13 12:41:04 <Diablo-D3> and Im pretty sure I spelled that wrong
 374 2011-12-13 12:41:11 <Diablo-D3> ecdsa
 375 2011-12-13 12:41:17 <upb> RIP MED
 376 2011-12-13 12:41:17 <Diablo-D3> elliptic curve dca
 377 2011-12-13 12:41:22 <Diablo-D3> er dsa
 378 2011-12-13 12:41:33 <upb> its RIPE-MD
 379 2011-12-13 12:41:36 <upb> message digest
 380 2011-12-13 12:41:36 <Diablo-D3> see, this is what happens when you have insufficient caffeine, people
 381 2011-12-13 12:42:04 <Diablo-D3> upb: heh, my keyboard loves to move keys out of order.
 382 2011-12-13 12:42:07 <Diablo-D3> its hilarious.
 383 2011-12-13 12:42:25 danbri has joined
 384 2011-12-13 12:42:29 <Diablo-D3> laptop keyboard doesnt do it, no other keyboard Ive ever owned does it
 385 2011-12-13 12:42:31 <Diablo-D3> just this one
 386 2011-12-13 12:42:41 <Diablo-D3> I suspect the keyboard goes on binge drinking when Im not looking
 387 2011-12-13 12:43:01 <JZavala> i like my laptop keyboard
 388 2011-12-13 12:43:17 <JZavala> then again i'm happy with just about any new keyboard
 389 2011-12-13 12:43:17 <upb> its your fingers, not the kbd
 390 2011-12-13 12:43:24 <Diablo-D3> upb: dude, its the keyboard
 391 2011-12-13 12:43:32 <Diablo-D3> sometimes even half the keys wont work until I hotplug it
 392 2011-12-13 12:43:33 <upb> or when you memorise the abbrevation not the concept
 393 2011-12-13 12:43:35 <JZavala> lol
 394 2011-12-13 12:43:45 <Diablo-D3> especially after a few hours of quake
 395 2011-12-13 12:43:54 <JZavala> quake...
 396 2011-12-13 12:43:57 <Diablo-D3> or it forgets to how to hold keys down
 397 2011-12-13 12:44:11 wolfspra1l has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 398 2011-12-13 12:44:22 <Diablo-D3> seriously, this is the most retarded keyboard ever
 399 2011-12-13 12:44:41 <JZavala> how old is this keyboard?
 400 2011-12-13 12:44:45 <JZavala> who makes it?
 401 2011-12-13 12:44:46 <Diablo-D3> like 2 years
 402 2011-12-13 12:44:50 <Diablo-D3> its a razer, I hate razers
 403 2011-12-13 12:44:51 <JZavala> please tell me its logitech
 404 2011-12-13 12:44:53 <Diablo-D3> so goddamned much
 405 2011-12-13 12:44:53 <JZavala> oh razer
 406 2011-12-13 12:44:55 <JZavala> lol yeah
 407 2011-12-13 12:45:00 <JZavala> i bought a steelseries
 408 2011-12-13 12:45:03 <Diablo-D3> people are like HEY DIABLO BUY ONE
 409 2011-12-13 12:45:06 <Diablo-D3> and Im like, dude it sucks
 410 2011-12-13 12:45:06 <JZavala> fucking love that thing for a desktop keyboard
 411 2011-12-13 12:45:11 <Diablo-D3> BUT ITS ONLY $20 NORMALLY $85
 412 2011-12-13 12:45:12 <Diablo-D3> so I tried
 413 2011-12-13 12:45:14 Mqrius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 414 2011-12-13 12:45:14 <Diablo-D3> I HATE IT
 415 2011-12-13 12:45:16 <JZavala> lol
 416 2011-12-13 12:45:21 <Diablo-D3> JZavala: btw steelseries is screwed up
 417 2011-12-13 12:45:24 <JZavala> too late to sell it now
 418 2011-12-13 12:45:28 <JZavala> how so?
 419 2011-12-13 12:45:42 <Diablo-D3> pbt keys, often plate mounted switches, usually cherry mx switches, depends on which model...
 420 2011-12-13 12:45:47 <Diablo-D3> but they laser etch keys.
 421 2011-12-13 12:45:58 <JZavala> doesnt matter ot me
 422 2011-12-13 12:46:00 <Diablo-D3> WHY GO TO ALL THAT TROUBLE AND THEN LASER ETCH THEM
 423 2011-12-13 12:46:05 <JZavala> i've used those "mechanical" keyboards
 424 2011-12-13 12:46:09 <JZavala> back in the dya
 425 2011-12-13 12:46:10 wolfspraul has joined
 426 2011-12-13 12:46:10 <JZavala> day*
 427 2011-12-13 12:46:19 <Diablo-D3> dye sublimate or double inject you bastards!
 428 2011-12-13 12:46:19 <JZavala> back on atari's and old macs and old pc's
 429 2011-12-13 12:46:26 <JZavala> give me the new ones any da
 430 2011-12-13 12:46:27 <Diablo-D3> JZavala: cherry mx are mechanical switches too
 431 2011-12-13 12:46:28 <JZavala> day*
 432 2011-12-13 12:46:43 <Diablo-D3> so are alps switches
 433 2011-12-13 12:46:53 <Diablo-D3> theres only one good keyboard on the market
 434 2011-12-13 12:47:09 <JZavala> newp,  give any new keyboard
 435 2011-12-13 12:47:14 <Diablo-D3> pbt keycaps, plate mounted ibm mechanical switches, dye sublimated lettering.... unicomp makes em
 436 2011-12-13 12:47:20 <JZavala> i'll be happy compared to those old shitty keyboards i hated so much
 437 2011-12-13 12:47:26 <Diablo-D3> the original, yet brand new, model ms.
 438 2011-12-13 12:47:37 <Diablo-D3> their spacesaver is like $75 or some shit
 439 2011-12-13 12:47:45 <JZavala> i dont get people who spend like
 440 2011-12-13 12:47:49 <JZavala> more than 40 on a keyboard
 441 2011-12-13 12:47:50 <JZavala> its stupid
 442 2011-12-13 12:47:59 <Diablo-D3> when they last 20 years? not so stupid.
 443 2011-12-13 12:48:04 <JZavala> i remember buying a "thin" keyboard back in the day
 444 2011-12-13 12:48:09 <JZavala> god i loved it
 445 2011-12-13 12:48:13 <JZavala> quiet, fast, easy to use
 446 2011-12-13 12:48:21 <JZavala> comfortable too
 447 2011-12-13 12:48:29 <JZavala> nobody makes it anymore either
 448 2011-12-13 12:48:30 <Diablo-D3> the only alternatives is a deck legend, pbt, plate mounted, dye sublimated, and uses cherry mx switches... $150 or some shit
 449 2011-12-13 12:48:33 <JZavala> *sadface*
 450 2011-12-13 12:48:46 <Diablo-D3> or a kenesis advantage, $300.
 451 2011-12-13 12:48:53 <Diablo-D3> and before you say ZOMG $300, go look at it first
 452 2011-12-13 12:49:03 <Diablo-D3> its one of those hypertyping ones
 453 2011-12-13 12:49:16 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure if it qualifies as a keyboard anymore
 454 2011-12-13 12:49:22 <Diablo-D3> sure, it has keys, and you can type things with it
 455 2011-12-13 12:49:41 <Diablo-D3> but its a prop from a scifi movie
 456 2011-12-13 12:49:53 <Diablo-D3> JZavala: seriously though
 457 2011-12-13 12:49:56 <Diablo-D3> every keyboard almost gets it right
 458 2011-12-13 12:49:58 <OneFixt> Diablo-D3: have you ever tried topre?
 459 2011-12-13 12:50:03 <Diablo-D3> topre switches are fine
 460 2011-12-13 12:50:08 <Diablo-D3> but theres very few keyboards that use it
 461 2011-12-13 12:50:12 <Diablo-D3> like, happy hackers use them
 462 2011-12-13 12:50:20 <JZavala> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823701033
 463 2011-12-13 12:50:23 <JZavala> it was kinda like that
 464 2011-12-13 12:50:25 <OneFixt> yeah, i'm using a realforce
 465 2011-12-13 12:50:27 <Diablo-D3> happy hackers unfortunately are pcb mounted switches
 466 2011-12-13 12:50:29 <JZavala> but it had a seperate arrow and numpad
 467 2011-12-13 12:50:31 <OneFixt> and am very happy with it
 468 2011-12-13 12:50:33 <JZavala> and two usb ports on the sides
 469 2011-12-13 12:50:33 <Diablo-D3> which means they can easily bust off
 470 2011-12-13 12:50:37 <JZavala> god i loved that thing
 471 2011-12-13 12:50:41 <neo2> cjdelisle, thanks
 472 2011-12-13 12:50:47 <Diablo-D3> JZavala: heh, thats the size of a happy hacker
 473 2011-12-13 12:51:02 <Diablo-D3> http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400b
 474 2011-12-13 12:51:30 <Diablo-D3> pbt keys, topre switches, dye sublimated on the key caps that have lettering (most people buy these blank)
 475 2011-12-13 12:51:37 <Diablo-D3> but they arent plate mounted due to the keyboard size
 476 2011-12-13 12:52:08 <Diablo-D3> but yeah, for switches, cherry mx browns, ibm mechanical switches, alps blacks, topres, they're all great switches for hackers
 477 2011-12-13 12:52:16 <Diablo-D3> very comfortable to use
 478 2011-12-13 12:52:38 <JZavala> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823166101
 479 2011-12-13 12:52:44 <JZavala> this would have to be the most similar
 480 2011-12-13 12:52:45 <Diablo-D3> alps whites, cherry mx red/blacks, etc are good gamer keys
 481 2011-12-13 12:53:06 <Diablo-D3> JZavala: if its only $25, its a dome switch
 482 2011-12-13 12:53:08 <Diablo-D3> HATE dome switches
 483 2011-12-13 12:53:19 <Diablo-D3> this racer I own now is dome switches, and I know damned well Im frying it
 484 2011-12-13 12:53:19 <OneFixt> i can't even look at those any more without feeling pain
 485 2011-12-13 12:53:19 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 486 2011-12-13 12:53:25 <Diablo-D3> er, razer
 487 2011-12-13 12:53:32 <cjdelisle> neo2: listen to what Diablo-D3 says, not what I say, I have not read that specific code so I'm guessing.
 488 2011-12-13 12:53:33 <Diablo-D3> I opened it up the other day to clean it
 489 2011-12-13 12:53:34 <JZavala> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823330012
 490 2011-12-13 12:53:41 <JZavala> if only this thing was in black
 491 2011-12-13 12:53:49 <JZavala> i dont care about dome switch or mechanical
 492 2011-12-13 12:53:54 <Diablo-D3> the dome .. uh... pad
 493 2011-12-13 12:53:57 <Diablo-D3> is wearing out
 494 2011-12-13 12:54:01 <Diablo-D3> especially near wasd
 495 2011-12-13 12:54:04 <JZavala> i want a good, reliable keyboad that will work for 2 maybe 3 years
 496 2011-12-13 12:54:05 <Diablo-D3> theres cracks in the rubber mat
 497 2011-12-13 12:54:13 <Diablo-D3> JZavala: dome switches arent reliable
 498 2011-12-13 12:54:14 <OneFixt> then you want mechanical
 499 2011-12-13 12:54:15 <Diablo-D3> thats the problem
 500 2011-12-13 12:54:19 <JZavala> no,  works fine for me
 501 2011-12-13 12:54:28 <Diablo-D3> a unicomp will last 20-30 years
 502 2011-12-13 12:54:35 <Diablo-D3> I know people who have original 70s model Ms
 503 2011-12-13 12:54:36 <JZavala> i havent had any issues with any other keyboards.  until the point when i wore them down so badly through use
 504 2011-12-13 12:54:37 <JZavala> liek
 505 2011-12-13 12:54:45 <Diablo-D3> they have AT plug -> usb plug converters
 506 2011-12-13 12:54:48 <JZavala> seriously, so much typing
 507 2011-12-13 12:54:53 <JZavala> all the letters were gone
 508 2011-12-13 12:54:58 <JZavala> only numbers remained
 509 2011-12-13 12:54:58 <Diablo-D3> JZavala: see
 510 2011-12-13 12:55:01 <JZavala> and they were all smooth
 511 2011-12-13 12:55:01 <JZavala> no
 512 2011-12-13 12:55:05 <Diablo-D3> thats why pad printing and laser etching is wrong
 513 2011-12-13 12:55:07 <JZavala> this was a cheap keyboard
 514 2011-12-13 12:55:11 <Diablo-D3> I never buy them
 515 2011-12-13 12:55:13 <JZavala> i dont mind it though
 516 2011-12-13 12:55:14 <Diablo-D3> I cant stand pad printing
 517 2011-12-13 12:55:17 <JZavala> i know what keys i'm hitting
 518 2011-12-13 12:55:18 <JZavala> lol
 519 2011-12-13 12:55:18 <Diablo-D3> it feels like the keyboard is dirty
 520 2011-12-13 12:55:24 <Diablo-D3> its a fucking decal
 521 2011-12-13 12:55:29 <Diablo-D3> you can feel it
 522 2011-12-13 12:55:31 <Diablo-D3> its ick
 523 2011-12-13 12:55:37 <JZavala> do you NEED to see what each letter is?
 524 2011-12-13 12:55:40 <Diablo-D3> no
 525 2011-12-13 12:55:46 <JZavala> whats the point in having them there then lol
 526 2011-12-13 12:55:46 <Diablo-D3> but I dont want to feel it either
 527 2011-12-13 12:55:49 <Diablo-D3> well, sure
 528 2011-12-13 12:55:50 <JZavala> even my mom can ues home row
 529 2011-12-13 12:55:51 <Diablo-D3> blank is fine too
 530 2011-12-13 12:55:59 <Diablo-D3> but its hard to get blank keys
 531 2011-12-13 12:56:15 <Diablo-D3> like unicomp doesnt sell a blank set
 532 2011-12-13 12:56:30 <Diablo-D3> http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net//en104bl.html
 533 2011-12-13 12:56:44 <Diablo-D3> its really hard to beat that keyboard
 534 2011-12-13 12:56:55 <Diablo-D3> its made in the same factory thats made ibm mechanical keys since the 70s
 535 2011-12-13 12:56:56 <JZavala> personally i'm not concerned,  most keyboards work long enough that i'm not worried when they die
 536 2011-12-13 12:56:59 <JZavala> and kinda want something new
 537 2011-12-13 12:57:09 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but once you've typed on a good keyboard
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 539 2011-12-13 12:57:09 benne has joined
 540 2011-12-13 12:57:11 <Diablo-D3> youc ant go back
 541 2011-12-13 12:57:20 <JZavala> i also like being able to dissasemble it
 542 2011-12-13 12:57:22 <JZavala> and clean it easily
 543 2011-12-13 12:57:28 <Diablo-D3> you can replace switches on ibm model ms
 544 2011-12-13 12:57:29 <OneFixt> http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce&pid=rf_se02b0
 545 2011-12-13 12:57:31 <OneFixt> the one i have
 546 2011-12-13 12:57:38 <JZavala> dont want to spend money to replace stuff
 547 2011-12-13 12:57:47 <JFK911> too bad the model m has the worst ergonomics
 548 2011-12-13 12:57:48 <Diablo-D3> JZavala: you can get switches for like 50 cents
 549 2011-12-13 12:57:48 <JZavala> individual switches i mean
 550 2011-12-13 12:57:48 <OneFixt> keys are black, so very discreet
 551 2011-12-13 12:57:58 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: no it doesnt
 552 2011-12-13 12:57:59 <JZavala> lolwat
 553 2011-12-13 12:58:00 <Diablo-D3> its perfect
 554 2011-12-13 12:58:00 <JFK911> yes it does
 555 2011-12-13 12:58:05 <JZavala> 260 bucks for a fucking keyboard?
 556 2011-12-13 12:58:06 <JZavala> lolno
 557 2011-12-13 12:58:09 <Diablo-D3> like, no more fucking hard dstop when you jam the key down
 558 2011-12-13 12:58:15 <JFK911> see what you think in ten years Diablo-D3
 559 2011-12-13 12:58:22 <JFK911> fact is it takes more force to push those than just about anything else
 560 2011-12-13 12:58:33 <OneFixt> JZavala: worth every penny!
 561 2011-12-13 12:58:40 <JFK911> you're going to wish for your hands to be cut off so you can get prosthetic hooks
 562 2011-12-13 12:58:41 <Diablo-D3> OneFixt: yeah, I think those are plate mounted
 563 2011-12-13 12:59:04 <OneFixt> feels very solid indeed
 564 2011-12-13 12:59:15 <OneFixt> variable-weighted keys, hands get a lot less tired
 565 2011-12-13 12:59:16 <JZavala> lol
 566 2011-12-13 12:59:23 <JZavala> my hands never get tired lol
 567 2011-12-13 12:59:24 <OneFixt> and my typing speed went up just by using it
 568 2011-12-13 12:59:25 <Diablo-D3> you know what I dont get?
 569 2011-12-13 12:59:31 <JFK911> less force is win
 570 2011-12-13 12:59:32 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck people use das keyboard
 571 2011-12-13 12:59:41 <JFK911> cherry mx are nice is why
 572 2011-12-13 12:59:46 <Diablo-D3> sure, they use cherry mxes, but the non-blank ones are laser etched
 573 2011-12-13 12:59:54 <JFK911> they are stupid to pay das price tho
 574 2011-12-13 12:59:59 <JZavala> i'd rather save up and buy the optimus whatever keyboard
 575 2011-12-13 13:00:01 <Diablo-D3> although Ill give them that they're pbt keycaps and plate mounted
 576 2011-12-13 13:00:03 <JZavala> made out of only OLED's
 577 2011-12-13 13:00:04 <JZavala> lll
 578 2011-12-13 13:00:05 <JZavala> lol*
 579 2011-12-13 13:00:08 <Diablo-D3> JZavala: no
 580 2011-12-13 13:00:09 chrisb__ has joined
 581 2011-12-13 13:00:10 <JFK911> optimus is very sad
 582 2011-12-13 13:00:14 <Diablo-D3> they use cherry mls
 583 2011-12-13 13:00:19 <JFK911> ML's are nice
 584 2011-12-13 13:00:20 <JZavala> lol
 585 2011-12-13 13:00:21 <JFK911> really?
 586 2011-12-13 13:00:21 <Diablo-D3> low profile versions of the cherry mx, but they suck badly
 587 2011-12-13 13:00:25 <Diablo-D3> have zero fucking travel
 588 2011-12-13 13:00:26 <JZavala> looks neat
 589 2011-12-13 13:00:28 <JZavala> i know someone who got one
 590 2011-12-13 13:00:30 <JZavala> as a gift
 591 2011-12-13 13:00:38 <JZavala> god it was beautiful
 592 2011-12-13 13:00:40 <Diablo-D3> http://www.deckkeyboards.com/
 593 2011-12-13 13:00:43 <Diablo-D3> deck legends are very nice
 594 2011-12-13 13:00:48 <JZavala> know what
 595 2011-12-13 13:00:55 <JZavala> he wasnt as anal as people are in here about keyboards either
 596 2011-12-13 13:01:03 <JZavala> and he worked in the comm section of my unit
 597 2011-12-13 13:01:08 <JZavala> only on computers too
 598 2011-12-13 13:01:11 <Diablo-D3> pbt, cherry mx, plate mounted, double injected iirc
 599 2011-12-13 13:01:12 <JZavala> at home and at work
 600 2011-12-13 13:01:17 <JZavala> and he didnt care about keyboards lol
 601 2011-12-13 13:01:19 <JFK911> you can find like new cherry mx on ebay that used to be part of cash registers
 602 2011-12-13 13:01:23 <JFK911> very cheap
 603 2011-12-13 13:01:35 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: yeah but you gotta make sure its the right one
 604 2011-12-13 13:01:42 <JFK911> they have wear on the enter keys and numpad zero
 605 2011-12-13 13:01:46 <JFK911> usually the guy will tell you
 606 2011-12-13 13:01:55 <JFK911> the label says mx and the stem is black/white/brown
 607 2011-12-13 13:02:00 cryptoxchange has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 608 2011-12-13 13:02:09 <Diablo-D3> yeah but blacks arent the same as browns
 609 2011-12-13 13:02:17 <Diablo-D3> browns are typist ones, blacks are gamer ones
 610 2011-12-13 13:02:18 <JFK911> right, but you can find what you want and avoid blue
 611 2011-12-13 13:02:22 <JFK911> blacks feel nice
 612 2011-12-13 13:02:25 <JZavala> which makes me wonder
 613 2011-12-13 13:02:26 <JFK911> for typing
 614 2011-12-13 13:02:28 <JZavala> he was also a programmer
 615 2011-12-13 13:02:35 <JZavala> so why are people so anal about keyboards
 616 2011-12-13 13:02:36 <JFK911> wyse terminals were all black
 617 2011-12-13 13:02:42 <JZavala> when people who do nothing but type all day every day
 618 2011-12-13 13:02:44 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 619 2011-12-13 13:02:44 <JZavala> dont usually care
 620 2011-12-13 13:02:46 <Diablo-D3> blue sare weird
 621 2011-12-13 13:03:03 <Diablo-D3> its like they tried to make a brown that was for people who use ibm ms
 622 2011-12-13 13:03:04 <JFK911> wyse had some nice keycaps that made the blacks feel really nice tho
 623 2011-12-13 13:03:26 cryptoxchange has joined
 624 2011-12-13 13:03:37 <Diablo-D3> reds and blacks are clearly gaming switches though
 625 2011-12-13 13:03:52 <Diablo-D3> give a korean a keyboard made of reds, he will rape even other koreans
 626 2011-12-13 13:04:00 <Diablo-D3> zoomj
 627 2011-12-13 13:04:01 <JFK911> maybe gamers like them best, i havent ever felt red ones
 628 2011-12-13 13:04:12 <JFK911> but maybe you can try them out by using brown springs in black switches?
 629 2011-12-13 13:04:19 <JFK911> i dont care enough to take that risk
 630 2011-12-13 13:04:24 <Diablo-D3> well
 631 2011-12-13 13:04:33 <Diablo-D3> browns are half way between blue and black
 632 2011-12-13 13:04:45 <Diablo-D3> they're not linear, and they're kinda stiff
 633 2011-12-13 13:05:01 <JFK911> seems to me browns have the same springs as blue
 634 2011-12-13 13:05:04 <Diablo-D3> clears are stiffer browns, and blues have a mechanical click
 635 2011-12-13 13:05:14 <Diablo-D3> blues and clears are supposed to be as stiff as each other
 636 2011-12-13 13:05:30 <JFK911> clears and blacks have the same force
 637 2011-12-13 13:05:35 <JFK911> the clear one has the bump that the brown one has
 638 2011-12-13 13:05:48 <JFK911> anyway it looks white
 639 2011-12-13 13:05:58 <Diablo-D3> yeah some call it grey too
 640 2011-12-13 13:06:26 <Diablo-D3> I'd be happy with a keyboard full of browns though
 641 2011-12-13 13:06:33 <JFK911> i think you would be too
 642 2011-12-13 13:06:41 <JFK911> typing on that is like ZOOOOOOOOOOOOM
 643 2011-12-13 13:06:55 <JFK911> no pain
 644 2011-12-13 13:07:03 <Diablo-D3> deck legends come in two kinds
 645 2011-12-13 13:07:04 <Diablo-D3> its lol
 646 2011-12-13 13:07:26 <JFK911> seems the most available ones are filco but the legends rub off too easily
 647 2011-12-13 13:07:37 <JFK911> cherry's laser feels like crap on black keys tho
 648 2011-12-13 13:07:49 <Diablo-D3> cherry's own keyboards SUCK
 649 2011-12-13 13:07:55 <Diablo-D3> they're abs keys and pcb mounted
 650 2011-12-13 13:07:56 <JFK911> so you have to find a set of double shots
 651 2011-12-13 13:08:00 <Diablo-D3> its like why the fuck bother
 652 2011-12-13 13:08:02 <JFK911> nah no abs keys
 653 2011-12-13 13:08:08 <JFK911> nothing wrong with the boards either
 654 2011-12-13 13:08:09 <Diablo-D3> pretty sure they're not pbt
 655 2011-12-13 13:08:11 <JFK911> never saw any flex
 656 2011-12-13 13:08:14 <JFK911> one color is pbt
 657 2011-12-13 13:08:23 <JFK911> the other color is smth else
 658 2011-12-13 13:08:39 <Diablo-D3> huh, deck legend tactiles use clears
 659 2011-12-13 13:08:47 <JFK911> ive got a bunch including plain mx8000
 660 2011-12-13 13:08:47 <Diablo-D3> I thought they used browns
 661 2011-12-13 13:09:00 <Diablo-D3> I mean, thats not a huge problem, clears would be fine too
 662 2011-12-13 13:09:11 <JFK911> you've felt clears before?
 663 2011-12-13 13:09:19 <JFK911> comparing clear and brown, most people choose brown
 664 2011-12-13 13:09:22 <Diablo-D3> no, Ive heard them described though
 665 2011-12-13 13:09:26 <Diablo-D3> they're stiffer browns
 666 2011-12-13 13:09:33 plutonic has joined
 667 2011-12-13 13:09:36 <JFK911> bump is a bit more pronounced too
 668 2011-12-13 13:12:31 <Diablo-D3> I imagine its not a huge change
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 670 2011-12-13 13:12:44 <Diablo-D3> they all have a much more comfortable travel
 671 2011-12-13 13:12:50 <Diablo-D3> no more hard stop to key press
 672 2011-12-13 13:15:36 <JFK911> well learning to not hit the bottom makes the whole experience so much better
 673 2011-12-13 13:16:03 <JFK911> that takes some practice on browns tho
 674 2011-12-13 13:16:31 <Diablo-D3> what I mean is
 675 2011-12-13 13:16:40 <Diablo-D3> you cant do that on dome or scissor switches
 676 2011-12-13 13:16:47 <Diablo-D3> the activation as at the bottom, period
 677 2011-12-13 13:17:04 <JFK911> right
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 697 2011-12-13 14:25:08 <gavinandresen> Good morning everybody.  Anybody able to help sanity test 0.5.1rc1  ?
 698 2011-12-13 14:25:20 <gavinandresen> https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.5.1/test/
 699 2011-12-13 14:25:49 <gavinandresen> Help proofreading the release notes would be appreciated, too (README.txt at the above URL)
 700 2011-12-13 14:28:39 <[Tycho]> Hello.
 701 2011-12-13 14:28:57 <rasengan> gavinandresen: transations
 702 2011-12-13 14:29:15 <rasengan> Paragraph 3 or 3rd sentence that is;o
 703 2011-12-13 14:29:30 <gavinandresen> rasengan: thanks
 704 2011-12-13 14:29:33 <rasengan> np
 705 2011-12-13 14:29:43 <gavinandresen> Hmm, and the windows .exe is missing, and there are two osx dmgs....
 706 2011-12-13 14:30:06 <rasengan> one is 2.3mb ;o
 707 2011-12-13 14:32:14 <rasengan> the 2.3mb is invalid
 708 2011-12-13 14:35:20 <wumpus> gavinandresen: release notes OK
 709 2011-12-13 14:35:45 <Diablo-D3> HN mod time: mod this comment up: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3347529
 710 2011-12-13 14:35:58 <Diablo-D3> and mod this comment up: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3347520
 711 2011-12-13 14:36:27 <wumpus> still trying to push bitcoin on hn?
 712 2011-12-13 14:37:20 <Diablo-D3> no, its anti-microsoft today
 713 2011-12-13 14:37:44 <rasengan> Whoever does the mac btc qt build - the "Please use a passphrase of 10 or more random characters .... " dialog box when encrypting wallet is cut off (eight or more w) <-- it gets cut off at the 'w'
 714 2011-12-13 14:38:11 <Diablo-D3> I dont want people going around thinking Ximian is the perfect startup when they lied to every customer and microsoft was pulling the strings anyhow
 715 2011-12-13 14:38:38 <upb> yeah, fucking M$
 716 2011-12-13 14:38:45 <upb> M<b>$</b>
 717 2011-12-13 14:38:55 <Diablo-D3> upb: needs a few underlines too
 718 2011-12-13 14:38:59 <Diablo-D3> and maybe blink tags
 719 2011-12-13 14:40:31 <[Tycho]> Well, at least removing GPL code is good thing.
 720 2011-12-13 14:40:57 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: not when its Microsofted BSD
 721 2011-12-13 14:41:24 <Diablo-D3> I support BSD legitimately, but not when people abuse it
 722 2011-12-13 14:41:51 <Diablo-D3> This is why I rarely BSD my own code, too many companies wish to abuse what I've given to everyone.
 723 2011-12-13 14:42:04 <wumpus> rasengan: so the message is not spread over muliple lines ?
 724 2011-12-13 14:43:11 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: Mono has not legitimate purpose, its not a platform that people can use outside of the Microsoft ecosystem
 725 2011-12-13 14:43:17 <Diablo-D3> it was designed, solely, as a patent attack on Linux
 726 2011-12-13 14:43:28 <Diablo-D3> people think its open source when its BSD
 727 2011-12-13 14:43:31 <Diablo-D3> but its not
 728 2011-12-13 14:43:49 <Diablo-D3> now, if it was ASLv2 (BSD + GPLv3-like anti-patent language), it'd be a different story
 729 2011-12-13 14:44:03 <wumpus> rasengan: at least, the message box becomes wider than the screen?
 730 2011-12-13 14:44:28 <rasengan> http://i.imgur.com/3R6N9.png
 731 2011-12-13 14:44:35 <rasengan> this is from 0.5.0 (but it was same as 0.5.1)
 732 2011-12-13 14:44:51 <Diablo-D3> rasengan: ahh
 733 2011-12-13 14:44:59 <Diablo-D3> thats not a mac maintainer prbolem
 734 2011-12-13 14:45:01 <Diablo-D3> thats a qt bug problem
 735 2011-12-13 14:45:12 <Diablo-D3> I wonder why qt isnt handling that right
 736 2011-12-13 14:45:28 <wumpus> ok.. so it's not simply a flag on the label that says 'break this over multiple lines if needed'?
 737 2011-12-13 14:45:41 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: pretty sure qt doesnt work that way
 738 2011-12-13 14:45:43 <wumpus> I think it works ok in linux, at least, never saw the problem
 739 2011-12-13 14:45:46 <Diablo-D3> because the line breaks on linux qt
 740 2011-12-13 14:45:53 <wumpus> exactly
 741 2011-12-13 14:46:08 <Diablo-D3> someone could throw a manual break in, but thats icky
 742 2011-12-13 14:46:21 <wumpus> nah that's icky, we use a toolkit like qt to handle that for us
 743 2011-12-13 14:46:45 <wumpus> and as it works fine on other OSes it seems it's an upstream bug :/
 744 2011-12-13 14:47:01 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
 745 2011-12-13 14:47:41 <wumpus> anyway, the implementation for that dialog is in askpassphrasedialog.cpp, if someone with a mac feels like playing around with it
 746 2011-12-13 14:48:13 <wumpus> but I hope you can solve it without changing the mssage: otherwise all the translations have to be adapted too
 747 2011-12-13 14:51:16 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 748 2011-12-13 14:54:43 <Diablo-D3> lol
 749 2011-12-13 14:54:54 <Diablo-D3> Im being attacked on HN for being pro-FOSS
 750 2011-12-13 14:56:16 <gavinandresen> 0.5.1rc1-setup.exe looks sane running on Windows XP SP3 ....
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 753 2011-12-13 15:02:29 <gavinandresen> 0.5.1rc1-tar.gz looks sane running on Ubuntu 11.04 32-bit...
 754 2011-12-13 15:03:39 iocor has joined
 755 2011-12-13 15:07:55 <wumpus> also on 11.10, tried both the 32 bit and 64 bit executable
 756 2011-12-13 15:10:01 eueueue has joined
 757 2011-12-13 15:11:00 <wumpus> rasengan: the message is also cut off in linux
 758 2011-12-13 15:11:46 <wumpus> rasengan: wordwrap is simply not enabled for the label :p
 759 2011-12-13 15:14:25 <helo> is there a counter for the number of installs via ubuntu ppa?
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 764 2011-12-13 15:18:07 <rasengan> wumpus: ah
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 767 2011-12-13 15:28:47 <wumpus> rasengan: I'll change that for the next release
 768 2011-12-13 15:29:00 <rasengan> wumpus: awesome, thank you :-)
 769 2011-12-13 15:32:16 Crshman has joined
 770 2011-12-13 15:35:03 <wumpus> rasengan: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/698
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 774 2011-12-13 15:38:46 <rasengan> wumpus: nice
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 777 2011-12-13 15:41:15 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r857aa73 / (2 files in 2 dirs): Enable wordwrap for long message in passphrase dialog ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/857aa73783a991e6d750c99988821585c1864e21
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 813 2011-12-13 17:21:25 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: can we get sipa's and luke-jr's dnsseeds in before 0.5.1?
 814 2011-12-13 17:22:50 <devrandom> hey BlueMatt
 815 2011-12-13 17:23:00 <BlueMatt> hi
 816 2011-12-13 17:23:12 <BlueMatt> long time no see devrandom
 817 2011-12-13 17:24:07 <devrandom> I'm always lurking ;)
 818 2011-12-13 17:24:14 genjix has joined
 819 2011-12-13 17:24:25 <BlueMatt> heh
 820 2011-12-13 17:24:30 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: will it still potentially hang on dnsseed failure?
 821 2011-12-13 17:24:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: as of 0.5.1, no
 822 2011-12-13 17:24:44 <wumpus> no, dnssseed moved to another thread
 823 2011-12-13 17:25:03 <gmaxwell> Great.
 824 2011-12-13 17:27:09 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: are sipa's and luke-jr's dns seeds already up and running?
 825 2011-12-13 17:27:11 <CIA-100> bips: genjix master * r1edc52d / (bip-0013.md bip-0014.md): Updated status. - http://git.io/YOqQbg https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/1edc52dddfb1ac6952e6be5057b9a7fdfbe75b21
 826 2011-12-13 17:27:11 <CIA-100> bips: genjix master * r314cc17 / bip-0010.md : deleted BIP 10 - never updated published or discussed - http://git.io/P9MJzg https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/314cc17cf578d2cebec74a33ab692f425e8617e9
 827 2011-12-13 17:27:25 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: mine is a CNAME to jgarzik's dummy
 828 2011-12-13 17:27:33 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: no, but they are cname'd to fallback nodes for now
 829 2011-12-13 17:27:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: just a static list for now at seed.bitcoin.sipa.be, but hopefully soon a real dnsseed
 830 2011-12-13 17:27:44 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: and its better to have them in the list earlier rater than later imo
 831 2011-12-13 17:27:51 * sipa is cursing at the DNS protocol
 832 2011-12-13 17:29:23 <gavinandresen> mmm.... I'd really rather not start to feature-creep 0.5.1
 833 2011-12-13 17:30:19 <BlueMatt> I would argue adding more dnsseeds is a bugfix
 834 2011-12-13 17:30:32 <BlueMatt> plus its a 2-line change...
 835 2011-12-13 17:30:33 <gavinandresen> ... but if we have to spin a rc2 for some other reason (like alerts being broken) then I think we should do it
 836 2011-12-13 17:30:35 <BlueMatt> (that doesnt even change any code)
 837 2011-12-13 17:31:18 <gmaxwell> A couple of domain names are hardly feature creep. :) (caching means that clients may only be able to get one address per name, a risk that was probably underestimated in the past)
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 839 2011-12-13 17:31:56 <UukGoblin> no trades for half an hour or is amphipod down again?
 840 2011-12-13 17:32:12 <BlueMatt> who runs amphipod anyway?
 841 2011-12-13 17:33:07 <UukGoblin> I think tcatm runs the thing that feeds it
 842 2011-12-13 17:33:19 <UukGoblin> (i.e. bitcoincharts.com port 27007)
 843 2011-12-13 17:33:30 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 845 2011-12-13 17:33:36 <genjix> huh
 846 2011-12-13 17:33:50 <luke-jr> wumpus: why "Enable wordwrap for long message in passphrase dialog"?
 847 2011-12-13 17:33:50 <luke-jr> wumpus: I think everyone with a long passphrase is used to a single line…
 848 2011-12-13 17:33:59 <genjix> gavinandresen: i got disconnected there so i might have missed your message (if you responded)
 849 2011-12-13 17:34:02 <wumpus> the passphrase is not being wrapped luke-jr
 850 2011-12-13 17:34:10 <wumpus> it's the label at the top
 851 2011-12-13 17:34:16 <luke-jr> O.o
 852 2011-12-13 17:34:22 <wumpus> the long message about what consists a good passphrase
 853 2011-12-13 17:34:51 <gavinandresen> genjix: responded to what?
 854 2011-12-13 17:34:56 <CIA-100> bips: genjix master * r5e56dc9 / (bip-0011.md bip-0012.md bip-0013.md): Synchronised BIPs wiki Wiki changes. - http://git.io/AiuZIw https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/5e56dc94ca9a007d95f7c5d8625667ccd0870250
 855 2011-12-13 17:34:56 <CIA-100> bips: genjix master * r271b2a4 / bip-0015.md : BIP 0015 - still Work In Progress and under discussion (Draft) - http://git.io/PHSlrw https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/271b2a4c7f3ae35e1f84a03b39e147d88d3822c8
 856 2011-12-13 17:34:58 <wumpus> wrapping the passphrase would be extremely funny though :-)
 857 2011-12-13 17:35:01 <luke-jr> wumpus: so that whole commit is a bugfix?
 858 2011-12-13 17:35:04 <wumpus> yes
 859 2011-12-13 17:35:14 <genjix> < genjix> gavinandresen: were any of your BIPs accepted yet? From what I can tell, they're still under discussion
 860 2011-12-13 17:35:17 <genjix> < genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Improvement_Proposals
 861 2011-12-13 17:35:28 <wumpus> it's a very simple fix
 862 2011-12-13 17:35:31 <genjix> < genjix> want to know if i should move any of those status Draft -> Accepted
 863 2011-12-13 17:35:51 <BlueMatt> genjix: you never posted that...
 864 2011-12-13 17:36:04 <genjix> ah weird...
 865 2011-12-13 17:36:06 <gavinandresen> genjix: I think there is general consensus on 11 and 12.  The version numbering scheme for 13 is still being discussed
 866 2011-12-13 17:36:12 <genjix> ok great
 867 2011-12-13 17:38:41 <CIA-100> bips: genjix master * r12627ba / (bip-0011.md bip-0012.md): BIP 0011, BIP 0012: Draft -> Accepted - http://git.io/2rALeA https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/12627baeea94a377bb94612beeec9b9cc4bd978e
 868 2011-12-13 17:39:21 jrmithdobbs has quit (Quit: quit)
 869 2011-12-13 17:39:37 <genjix> i'm 7 posts from having a post count of 1337 on bitcointalk
 870 2011-12-13 17:40:56 jrmithdobbs has joined
 871 2011-12-13 17:42:59 <luke-jr> WTF
 872 2011-12-13 17:43:05 <luke-jr> you can't decrypt your wallet?
 873 2011-12-13 17:44:42 forbiddenfox has joined
 874 2011-12-13 17:44:55 <midnightmagic> is there a key export function?
 875 2011-12-13 17:44:57 <gmaxwell> Turning off the encryption isn't implemented, and every bug we hit makes me more glad of it. You can set your passphrase to something trivial of course.
 876 2011-12-13 17:45:00 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: no
 877 2011-12-13 17:45:12 <BlueMatt> took you that long to figure that out?
 878 2011-12-13 17:45:12 <midnightmagic> whoah
 879 2011-12-13 17:45:21 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it being a checkbox implies it can be turned off ;/
 880 2011-12-13 17:45:30 <BlueMatt> where is it a checkbox?
 881 2011-12-13 17:45:32 <BlueMatt> that is wrong
 882 2011-12-13 17:45:33 <luke-jr> on the menu
 883 2011-12-13 17:45:43 <gmaxwell> You could, I presume, merge the sipa showwallet stuff and export.
 884 2011-12-13 17:46:17 <gmaxwell> But yea, this wasn't a secret. It's a risky corner case, of limited value, which would get basically no testing exposure.
 885 2011-12-13 17:46:51 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.5.0.x * r79ef6e682680 bitcoind-stable/src/qt/ (askpassphrasedialog.cpp forms/askpassphrasedialog.ui): Enable wordwrap for long message in passphrase dialog - Remove explicit resizing from constructor to prevent potential hang http://tinyurl.com/75xry44
 886 2011-12-13 17:48:24 <luke-jr> oops
 887 2011-12-13 17:48:26 <wumpus> well there's a tick next to "encrypt wallet" in the menu to show that the wallet is encrypted, the option is disabled as well though when encrypted so I don't agree it implies that decryption is possible...
 888 2011-12-13 17:48:40 iocor has joined
 889 2011-12-13 17:50:17 <wumpus> I agree it's a low-priority risky corner case, though for symmetry it would be nice if it was possible to go back to decrypted state
 890 2011-12-13 17:51:06 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 893 2011-12-13 17:56:33 erus` has joined
 894 2011-12-13 17:56:59 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan 0.5.0.x * r142e5056cd8a bitcoind-stable/src/qt/ (askpassphrasedialog.cpp forms/askpassphrasedialog.ui): Enable wordwrap for long message in passphrase dialog - Remove explicit resizing from constructor to prevent potential hang http://tinyurl.com/c3nuz7j
 895 2011-12-13 18:05:42 DontMindMe has joined
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 899 2011-12-13 18:16:08 <sipa> anyone want to try hammering the mini DNS server i implemented, running on vps.sipa.be ?
 900 2011-12-13 18:16:45 <sipa> it only answers requests for seedtest.bitcoin.sipa.be
 901 2011-12-13 18:17:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: you should probably respond with an error if its for any other domain...
 902 2011-12-13 18:18:11 <BlueMatt> also, ttl of 1...
 903 2011-12-13 18:18:18 <BlueMatt> maybe 60?
 904 2011-12-13 18:19:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: ok, it answers REFUSED now for other domains
 905 2011-12-13 18:19:15 iocor has joined
 906 2011-12-13 18:19:21 <sipa> sure, ttl is configurable
 907 2011-12-13 18:19:56 <luke-jr> why not TTL 0?
 908 2011-12-13 18:19:57 <BlueMatt> oh, and as gmaxwell pointed out a couple days ago, I think Im gonna try to respond to *.dnsseed.bluematt.me with ips
 909 2011-12-13 18:20:07 <BlueMatt> it would be nice if you could do the same
 910 2011-12-13 18:20:14 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you want a slight ttl to give you some anti-ddos.
 911 2011-12-13 18:20:25 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: a DDoS isn't going to care what the TTL is
 912 2011-12-13 18:20:42 <gmaxwell> sure it will, if they're running through recursive resolvers in order to be hard to block.
 913 2011-12-13 18:21:00 <gmaxwell> (or, launched from web browsers where the attacker doesn't have any resolver control)
 914 2011-12-13 18:22:08 <gmaxwell> wrt, the wildcard— the reason for that is that there are a lot of 'broken' recursive resolvers out there that do crap like ignore the TTL or only return one a record. A client behind one of those could only get more seeds by querying additional names.
 915 2011-12-13 18:22:32 <gmaxwell> (I don't have figures for 'a lot'— it's enough that it causes problems but not enough to make GSLB useless)
 916 2011-12-13 18:22:40 cryptoxchange has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 917 2011-12-13 18:22:42 <sipa> shouldn't be hard
 918 2011-12-13 18:23:01 Burgundy has joined
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 920 2011-12-13 18:27:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: implemented, it answers for subdomains as well
 921 2011-12-13 18:27:11 <BlueMatt> nice
 922 2011-12-13 18:27:38 <sipa> it lacks a SOA record implementation, but i doubt that's very necessary
 923 2011-12-13 18:28:26 <gavinandresen> Does anybody have a 0.5.0 release candidate 1/2/3 bitcoin-qt binary handy?  If you do, could your run it -testnet for me?
 924 2011-12-13 18:28:43 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 925 2011-12-13 18:28:59 <helo> has there been email sent to a .bit domain yet?
 926 2011-12-13 18:30:50 localhost has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 927 2011-12-13 18:31:38 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: do we support rcs?
 928 2011-12-13 18:31:59 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: rcs for what?
 929 2011-12-13 18:32:05 <BlueMatt> previous releases?
 930 2011-12-13 18:32:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: no, I change the sourceforge RCS tree to nothing but a README a while back
 931 2011-12-13 18:32:45 <BlueMatt> so why are you testing testnet on 0.5.0 rcs?
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 933 2011-12-13 18:33:02 <gavinandresen> Sorry, 0.5.0 release candidate
 934 2011-12-13 18:33:23 <gavinandresen> I'm testing the CAlert system
 935 2011-12-13 18:33:33 <BlueMatt> on unsupported releases?
 936 2011-12-13 18:33:48 <gavinandresen> Yes
 937 2011-12-13 18:33:51 <BlueMatt> mmm
 938 2011-12-13 18:35:57 <BlueMatt> running...no alert yet...
 939 2011-12-13 18:35:57 <gavinandresen> wumpus:  there's no code in bitcoin-qt to display CAlert messages?
 940 2011-12-13 18:36:14 <BlueMatt> 8 connections and no alert
 941 2011-12-13 18:36:35 <BlueMatt> wait, seriously wtf?
 942 2011-12-13 18:36:37 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: methinks CAlert never got implemented in bitcoin-qt.......
 943 2011-12-13 18:36:45 <BlueMatt> oh god
 944 2011-12-13 18:37:15 <gmaxwell> ...
 945 2011-12-13 18:37:29 <BlueMatt> well thats a release-blocker
 946 2011-12-13 18:38:47 <gavinandresen> serves me right for never testing it before.  It does work on 0.4.0.
 947 2011-12-13 18:42:16 <gavinandresen> afk for lunch.
 948 2011-12-13 18:42:25 <wumpus> how are they delivered? if it's simply through (threadsafe)messagebox they are displayed as notification
 949 2011-12-13 18:42:44 <BlueMatt> in wx its a status bar message
 950 2011-12-13 18:43:30 <wumpus> void CalledSetStatusBar(const std::string& strText, int nField)
 951 2011-12-13 18:43:30 <wumpus> {
 952 2011-12-13 18:43:30 <wumpus>     // Only used for built-in mining, which is disabled, simple ignore
 953 2011-12-13 18:43:30 <wumpus> }
 954 2011-12-13 18:43:35 <wumpus> seems the answer is no, then...
 955 2011-12-13 18:43:58 <BlueMatt> so whos got the time to fix it today?
 956 2011-12-13 18:44:01 shawn_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 957 2011-12-13 18:44:04 beppu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 958 2011-12-13 18:44:16 <BlueMatt> (it might not be that function, check the CAlert code and see what it calls
 959 2011-12-13 18:44:17 <wumpus> I might have time today
 960 2011-12-13 18:44:18 <BlueMatt> )
 961 2011-12-13 18:44:20 <wumpus> how can I test it?
 962 2011-12-13 18:44:38 <wumpus> is there a way to trigger alert messages on a testnet-in-a-box?
 963 2011-12-13 18:44:45 <BlueMatt> it doesnt work gavin just put out an alert on testnet and it doesnt apear
 964 2011-12-13 18:46:26 <wumpus> yes, but if I were to implement it, can I test it somehow?
 965 2011-12-13 18:46:28 <gavinandresen> wumpus:  yes, there are a couple of alerts on testnet that should trigger on 0.4.0 and 0.5.0 through 0.5.1
 966 2011-12-13 18:46:38 genjix has left ()
 967 2011-12-13 18:46:41 <gavinandresen> wumpus: ... so just run -testnet and you should get them.
 968 2011-12-13 18:46:43 <wumpus> ok
 969 2011-12-13 18:47:50 <gavinandresen> wumpus: they're set to expire in 24 hours, just let me know and I can generate longer-lived alerts.
 970 2011-12-13 18:48:36 batouzo has joined
 971 2011-12-13 18:49:51 <BlueMatt> the problem is you never call GetWarnings("statusbar") like wx did to get statusbar text
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 975 2011-12-13 18:56:43 <jgarzik> yeah, there should be no problem adding DNS seeds at any time to 'master', IMO
 976 2011-12-13 18:56:46 <jgarzik> or removing
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 980 2011-12-13 19:18:41 <wumpus> ok that is probably why I didn't find any usages for CalledStatusBar outside of the miner
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 983 2011-12-13 19:32:40 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/700
 984 2011-12-13 19:32:43 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ^
 985 2011-12-13 19:34:27 <wumpus> huh, I was also working on this
 986 2011-12-13 19:34:46 <wumpus> but seems fine
 987 2011-12-13 19:35:14 <wumpus> MainFrameRepaint, from which thread is it called?
 988 2011-12-13 19:35:16 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry
 989 2011-12-13 19:35:27 <BlueMatt> net thread...oh wait
 990 2011-12-13 19:35:40 <wumpus> might be you need the QueuedConnection stuff then 
 991 2011-12-13 19:37:20 <TD> evening
 992 2011-12-13 19:37:29 <wumpus> evening
 993 2011-12-13 19:37:31 <BlueMatt> hi
 994 2011-12-13 19:37:32 <TD> if you're in the area, why not make alerts be popup dialogs?
 995 2011-12-13 19:38:11 <BlueMatt> wumpus: fixed
 996 2011-12-13 19:38:26 <wumpus> well, the status bar is persistent
 997 2011-12-13 19:38:34 <BlueMatt> TD: because status bar is the way it was in wx? but no, I dunno I prefer the persistence of status bar
 998 2011-12-13 19:38:42 <TD> but is it easy to spot?
 999 2011-12-13 19:38:50 <BlueMatt> also, I have your nick marked to highlight me and I forgot why...
1000 2011-12-13 19:38:52 <TD> my intuition is that a lot of people won't see it, or will see it and ignore it
1001 2011-12-13 19:39:08 <wumpus> well a popup box is also easily ignored
1002 2011-12-13 19:39:16 <wumpus> especially by windows users which are bombarded to death with them
1003 2011-12-13 19:39:41 <wumpus> the bitcoin-qt status bar is usually pretty empty, so if there's a message there it should be appearent
1004 2011-12-13 19:40:03 <TD> maybe both? :-)
1005 2011-12-13 19:40:06 <wumpus> then again, I have no problem with *also* showing a popup
1006 2011-12-13 19:40:09 <wumpus> yeah.. 
1007 2011-12-13 19:40:13 <TD> i guess alerts will mostly be used for things like mandatory upgrade announcements
1008 2011-12-13 19:40:21 <TD> so interrupting the user isn't necessarily a bad thing
1009 2011-12-13 19:40:27 <BlueMatt> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qozllu&s=5
1010 2011-12-13 19:40:32 <BlueMatt> how it looks ^
1011 2011-12-13 19:40:40 <sipa> interrupting the user usually results in the user clicking the popup away
1012 2011-12-13 19:40:49 <sipa> so i'd vote for having both
1013 2011-12-13 19:41:38 <wumpus> but in that case you need a notification signal when the warnings changed, and if it changed to non-empty -> show a popup
1014 2011-12-13 19:41:58 <wumpus> I think BlueMatt's implementation is fine for 0.5.1
1015 2011-12-13 19:42:08 <wumpus> could add a alert box later
1016 2011-12-13 19:42:11 <helo> how do you notify a bitcoind user?
1017 2011-12-13 19:42:15 <gavinandresen> I agree, simple is good for now.
1018 2011-12-13 19:42:18 <BlueMatt> it will take me like 10 seconds to add a dialog box...one sec
1019 2011-12-13 19:43:21 <TD> helo: unresolved unfortunately. there isn't even a mailing list for announcements :(
1020 2011-12-13 19:43:28 <TD> helo: for linux, probably sending a mail to root is the best way
1021 2011-12-13 19:43:34 <TD> or rather
1022 2011-12-13 19:43:36 <wumpus> helo: it logs the message 
1023 2011-12-13 19:43:38 <TD> the user who is running bitcoind
1024 2011-12-13 19:43:50 <TD> that way it may get forwarded (would on my box) and the user will see it when they log in via the terminal
1025 2011-12-13 19:43:53 <wumpus> and noone ever will read it there 
1026 2011-12-13 19:44:04 <TD> bitcoind on Mac and Windows is probably an unusual setup
1027 2011-12-13 19:45:24 <gavinandresen> helo: getinfo RPC returns an "errors" with the alert text in it
1028 2011-12-13 19:45:44 <gavinandresen> helo: e.g. on testnet right now:   "errors" : "CAlert system test:         ver.0.5.1 available"
1029 2011-12-13 19:45:50 <wumpus> ok that's pretty cool
1030 2011-12-13 19:45:50 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1031 2011-12-13 19:46:02 <wumpus> so there, too, you have persistent notification
1032 2011-12-13 19:46:23 <BlueMatt> done
1033 2011-12-13 19:47:17 <sipa> BlueMatt: how does your p2p crawler work? just keep a list of all known nodes, and try random/old ones from it?
1034 2011-12-13 19:48:08 <BlueMatt> sipa: keeps a db of connectable and recently tried nodes, if a node doesnt work, retry it after 46 hours and eventually drop it after 48 hours
1035 2011-12-13 19:48:23 <BlueMatt> sipa: only add nodes to db if their last_seen is somewhat recent
1036 2011-12-13 19:48:38 <BlueMatt> but as I said, its not like mine is ideal
1037 2011-12-13 19:48:52 <sipa> i'd like to have a working version soon
1038 2011-12-13 19:48:54 <BlueMatt> that was picked because of the way the db writes are done, not because it is the best way...
1039 2011-12-13 19:49:15 RazielZ has joined
1040 2011-12-13 19:49:18 <sipa> currently the dns server is a binary of 50kb :)
1041 2011-12-13 19:49:23 dan__ has joined
1042 2011-12-13 19:49:27 <BlueMatt> nice
1043 2011-12-13 19:49:51 <BlueMatt> so its a network crawler which keeps a db and also is a dns server?
1044 2011-12-13 19:50:02 <sipa> currently just a dns server
1045 2011-12-13 19:50:08 <BlueMatt> oh
1046 2011-12-13 19:50:17 <sipa> the hard part still needs to be done :)
1047 2011-12-13 19:50:47 <sipa> didn't expect it to take so long to get a functioning dns
1048 2011-12-13 19:50:55 <BlueMatt> heh
1049 2011-12-13 19:51:10 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1050 2011-12-13 19:51:23 RazielZ has joined
1051 2011-12-13 19:53:14 <midnightmagic> .. this list is being maintained for your own purposes or is this the dns seed that bitcoin clients use to find seed nodes?
1052 2011-12-13 19:53:35 <sipa> there are several dns seeds
1053 2011-12-13 19:54:02 <sipa> but BlueMatt's one is hardcoded in the client
1054 2011-12-13 19:54:14 <midnightmagic> i guess the irc network itself is technically a centralized point that can manipulate which client nodes can initially find one another
1055 2011-12-13 19:55:08 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
1056 2011-12-13 19:55:19 Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1057 2011-12-13 19:57:28 <helo> ahh nice
1058 2011-12-13 20:01:46 Wizzleby has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1059 2011-12-13 20:02:26 <BlueMatt> sipa: btw, when doing dnsseeds, make sure you limit to >v0.3.24 and maybe check that they have the most recent block
1060 2011-12-13 20:02:33 <BlueMatt> or second most or something
1061 2011-12-13 20:03:00 <sipa> and how do i know what the most recent block is?
1062 2011-12-13 20:03:15 <sipa> without implementing a full node
1063 2011-12-13 20:03:56 <BlueMatt> mmm, good point...well atleast check that you can download like block 2
1064 2011-12-13 20:04:02 <BlueMatt> or take a poll
1065 2011-12-13 20:04:11 <BlueMatt> most commonly cited as most recent block probably is
1066 2011-12-13 20:04:17 Wizzleby has joined
1067 2011-12-13 20:04:28 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1068 2011-12-13 20:04:34 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: multiple CAlert dialog boxes testing your patch.....
1069 2011-12-13 20:04:47 <gavinandresen> ... like, an infinite number...
1070 2011-12-13 20:04:48 Litt has quit ()
1071 2011-12-13 20:05:41 <wumpus> with a new message every time?
1072 2011-12-13 20:05:48 <gavinandresen> no, same message over and over
1073 2011-12-13 20:05:48 <sipa> infinity dialog boxes in play, infinity dialog boxes... you take one down and click it away... infinity dialog boxes in play
1074 2011-12-13 20:06:39 <gavinandresen> Line 500 of bitcoingui.cpp needs to go before line 499, I believe
1075 2011-12-13 20:06:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: take the median.
1076 2011-12-13 20:06:51 <wumpus> because the code does check whether the message is changed
1077 2011-12-13 20:07:08 <gmaxwell> It doesn't hurt if the cutoff is a little behind, I think.
1078 2011-12-13 20:08:19 <gavinandresen> sipa: you could hardcode the block-chain checkpoint depths, and skip nodes that don't have at least that many
1079 2011-12-13 20:08:27 <sipa> good idea
1080 2011-12-13 20:08:43 <wumpus> gavinandresen: the order seems correct; it shows the warning if the new is different from the previous, then sets the previous to the current (for next check)
1081 2011-12-13 20:09:18 <gavinandresen> wumpus: ... but it is multithreaded....
1082 2011-12-13 20:09:32 <wumpus> no, functions in bitcoingui are only called from the ui thread
1083 2011-12-13 20:09:55 <gavinandresen> wumpus: ... so I think the dialog box is displayed, then the routine is re-entered before prevStatusBar is set
1084 2011-12-13 20:09:56 <wumpus> he queues the call in MainframeRepaint
1085 2011-12-13 20:10:02 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1086 2011-12-13 20:10:25 <wumpus> that's not possible
1087 2011-12-13 20:10:48 <gavinandresen> Okey doke.  Then there's a different bug that's making my Mac draw lots and lots of the same CAlert system test dialog boxes
1088 2011-12-13 20:10:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: if you wanted to be super snazzy you could have a table of all hashs value prior to the highest checkpoint and actually test some random block. e.g. check top_checkpoint-log(random());
1089 2011-12-13 20:11:12 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1090 2011-12-13 20:11:36 Wizzleby has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1091 2011-12-13 20:11:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm sure nodes could go great lengths to pretend being a real node without being one
1092 2011-12-13 20:11:51 <sipa> but what's the point?
1093 2011-12-13 20:12:11 <sipa> i shouldn't be testing for maliciousness, only for being accessible and up-to-date
1094 2011-12-13 20:12:20 <wumpus> gavinandresen: yes it's really weird
1095 2011-12-13 20:12:39 BlueMatt has joined
1096 2011-12-13 20:12:42 tower has joined
1097 2011-12-13 20:13:04 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: we were just talking about a bug in the alert dialog box code
1098 2011-12-13 20:13:12 Wizzleby has joined
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1100 2011-12-13 20:15:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: It's true— also, if you had an end, the cost of being a real node (via proxy) is low.
1101 2011-12-13 20:15:13 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I saw your message, but I dont see how...
1102 2011-12-13 20:17:14 <wumpus> I don't get it either
1103 2011-12-13 20:18:27 <gavinandresen> Multiple QEvents being queued to show dialogs?
1104 2011-12-13 20:18:43 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1105 2011-12-13 20:18:50 <gavinandresen> I don't pretend to understand QT's threading model....
1106 2011-12-13 20:18:50 <wumpus> I get it only once
1107 2011-12-13 20:19:03 RazielZ has joined
1108 2011-12-13 20:19:16 <gavinandresen> wumpus: on OSX?
1109 2011-12-13 20:19:34 <BlueMatt> qt's threading model is the same as wx's one
1110 2011-12-13 20:19:39 <wumpus> well, is MainFrameRepaint getting called many times?
1111 2011-12-13 20:19:41 <BlueMatt> everything in the gui must be called from the same thread
1112 2011-12-13 20:19:45 <BlueMatt> wumpus: yes
1113 2011-12-13 20:19:54 <wumpus> gavinandresen: on Ubuntu
1114 2011-12-13 20:19:55 <BlueMatt> you are going to get the alert from each node you connect to
1115 2011-12-13 20:20:10 <BlueMatt> and thus MainFrameRepaint is gonna get called >=8 times
1116 2011-12-13 20:20:29 <gavinandresen> Completely reproducible on my mac.  I do have to move the top dialog box out of the way to see the others....
1117 2011-12-13 20:20:43 <wumpus> so the call to refreshStatusBar gets queued 8 times
1118 2011-12-13 20:21:15 <wumpus> but it will only display a popup if the message is (slightly) different
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1120 2011-12-13 20:22:19 <wumpus> but if there are multiple alert messages on the network, it might display A then B than A then B again?
1121 2011-12-13 20:22:33 <BlueMatt> there is only one alert message afaict...
1122 2011-12-13 20:22:57 <wumpus> yeah...
1123 2011-12-13 20:23:22 <BlueMatt> though that is a good point, two alerts could get...annoying
1124 2011-12-13 20:24:04 <gavinandresen> Each alert has a unique ID.  Keeping a set of already-displayed ids is probably the right thing to do.
1125 2011-12-13 20:24:16 <wumpus> I think I know the problem
1126 2011-12-13 20:24:34 <[Tycho]> Hmm, may be it's time to accept 0.0005 as fee...
1127 2011-12-13 20:24:47 <BlueMatt> no, its not
1128 2011-12-13 20:24:58 <wumpus> if error shows a model dialog box, it will re-enter the event loop
1129 2011-12-13 20:24:58 <[Tycho]> But it looks almost like zero to me.
1130 2011-12-13 20:25:01 <BlueMatt> wumpus: care to share?
1131 2011-12-13 20:25:11 <wumpus> in this event loop it executes the queued function
1132 2011-12-13 20:25:21 <wumpus> which calls error again...
1133 2011-12-13 20:25:45 <gavinandresen> yes, it is recursing:  https://gist.github.com/1473725
1134 2011-12-13 20:25:51 <wumpus> which enters an event loop, which receives a queued call
1135 2011-12-13 20:26:15 <gmaxwell> Someone really should tell the multicoin that the current fee is 0.0005 and not the relay fee of 0.0001 :-/
1136 2011-12-13 20:26:18 <wumpus> which is all fun and games until the stack is full
1137 2011-12-13 20:26:48 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ok, so how does one fix such a problem?
1138 2011-12-13 20:26:57 <wumpus> what gavinandresensuggested 
1139 2011-12-13 20:27:05 <wumpus>  prevStatusBar = newStatusBar;  before calling error
1140 2011-12-13 20:27:07 erle- has joined
1141 2011-12-13 20:27:56 <wumpus> in this case, a new call (that comes in while the alert box is shown) will not go into a recursive event loop
1142 2011-12-13 20:27:57 <gavinandresen> ... or create a static std::set<int> alreadyDisplayed ....
1143 2011-12-13 20:28:21 <gavinandresen> ... although then you might need a critical section guard...
1144 2011-12-13 20:28:36 <wumpus> right, why not comment out the alert box code for now
1145 2011-12-13 20:28:39 <wumpus> and release 0.5.1
1146 2011-12-13 20:28:39 <gavinandresen> ... and the "it'll just take me 10 seconds" goes COMPLETELY out the window
1147 2011-12-13 20:28:42 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the problem is we dont get the CAlert in qt...
1148 2011-12-13 20:28:50 <wumpus> and do it properly later
1149 2011-12-13 20:28:54 <gavinandresen> Ok, std::set<string> then
1150 2011-12-13 20:29:00 <BlueMatt> sounds good
1151 2011-12-13 20:29:10 <wumpus> I don't like that in the BitcoinGui :/
1152 2011-12-13 20:29:30 <gavinandresen> ... or go back to the "just put it in the status bar."
1153 2011-12-13 20:29:51 * BlueMatt prefers std::set<QString>...
1154 2011-12-13 20:29:57 <BlueMatt> but if you dont feel like it, it doesnt matter...
1155 2011-12-13 20:30:19 <gavinandresen> I'll defer to wumpus (Mr. GUI King)
1156 2011-12-13 20:31:02 <luke-jr> [15:24:41] <gmaxwell> Someone really should tell the multicoin that the current fee is 0.0005 and not the relay fee of 0.0001 :-/
1157 2011-12-13 20:31:08 <wumpus> well I guess it's ok for now ... (the "I'll refactor later" excuse,  too much logic is seeping into the UI code)
1158 2011-12-13 20:31:18 <luke-jr> ^ and fix bitcoind/Bitcoin-Qt too by merging my pull
1159 2011-12-13 20:32:16 kish has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1160 2011-12-13 20:33:19 <BlueMatt> well I disabled the popup for now
1161 2011-12-13 20:33:25 <BlueMatt> wumpus: feel free to do as you wish
1162 2011-12-13 20:34:17 <wumpus> yes I think that's safest for now
1163 2011-12-13 20:35:22 <wumpus> at least with the statusbar we're sure it doesn't cause any problems, as it was the same in wx, which is nice for a last-minute addition
1164 2011-12-13 20:35:54 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/677 includes a bugfix for the fees
1165 2011-12-13 20:36:27 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: bugfix for what bug?
1166 2011-12-13 20:36:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: bitcoind & -Qt are currently mining based on 0.0001 BTC fees
1167 2011-12-13 20:36:50 <luke-jr> which was never the intention nor discussed
1168 2011-12-13 20:37:19 <gmaxwell> of course, what bitcoind-stock mines is irrelevant because no big miners are running that, AFAIK. ;) but it's better if its not wrong.
1169 2011-12-13 20:37:59 <luke-jr> :P
1170 2011-12-13 20:38:13 <gavinandresen> I seem to recall discussion of always mining at a lower fee level than relaying, at least until we get a good floating-fees scheme implemented
1171 2011-12-13 20:38:47 <gavinandresen> ... but I am probably misremembering (I was in Australia at the time)
1172 2011-12-13 20:38:59 * [Tycho] is still mining with 0.01 minimum fee
1173 2011-12-13 20:39:08 <sipa> that doesn't make sense... you'd never have any txs in your memory pool
1174 2011-12-13 20:39:10 Kolky has joined
1175 2011-12-13 20:39:35 <[Tycho]> Actually I'm mining more TXes that any other pool.
1176 2011-12-13 20:39:48 <[Tycho]> My free limits are just bigger.
1177 2011-12-13 20:39:55 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: we had discussed reducing the fee to 0.0005 BTC, and relaying as low as 0.0001 in case future drops were needed
1178 2011-12-13 20:40:09 <sipa> luke-jr: ACK'ed it
1179 2011-12-13 20:40:31 <gavinandresen> So... what bug does 677 fix?
1180 2011-12-13 20:40:39 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: I remembered 0.0005 because my bitcoind just declined this http://www.bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/#5f562956e37fe757fe1d74377051d09fda7195d036b80f3283a78175d5e76cf9
1181 2011-12-13 20:41:13 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: mainline mining 0.0001 BTC fees instead of 0.0005 BTC
1182 2011-12-13 20:41:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: it's mostly an internal cleanup, but it changes the mainline mining as well
1183 2011-12-13 20:41:42 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I don't see the bug.  Miners are more liberal than relaying nodes....
1184 2011-12-13 20:41:43 <luke-jr> it's an internal cleanup, and very minor bugfix
1185 2011-12-13 20:41:53 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that has never been the case, makes no sense, and was not discussed
1186 2011-12-13 20:41:59 * jgarzik looks
1187 2011-12-13 20:42:28 <luke-jr> (miners *can't* be more liberal than relaying nodes in practice)
1188 2011-12-13 20:42:58 <jgarzik> that last is certainly not true
1189 2011-12-13 20:43:14 <sipa> miners do whatever they please
1190 2011-12-13 20:43:15 <jgarzik> miners are usually the first to be more liberal, and the rest of the network catches up.
1191 2011-12-13 20:43:30 <sipa> but there's no problem in having the main client function according to a sane default
1192 2011-12-13 20:43:42 <sipa> (until we get a better dynamic fee system)
1193 2011-12-13 20:44:03 <luke-jr> jgarzik: even if miners accept lighter fees, they won't get them in practice unless they're relayed
1194 2011-12-13 20:45:12 <gavinandresen> Discussion was here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7749.msg145030#msg145030
1195 2011-12-13 20:45:49 <sipa> hmm, didn't remember that
1196 2011-12-13 20:46:02 <sipa> still, i have no problem with block creation requiring 0.0005
1197 2011-12-13 20:46:02 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that was about 0.0005 BTC and 0.01 BTC
1198 2011-12-13 20:46:18 <jgarzik> kinda hard pressed to call #677 a bug fix
1199 2011-12-13 20:46:23 <luke-jr> and a temporary way to workaround not being prepared for the urgent drop "needed"
1200 2011-12-13 20:46:47 kish has joined
1201 2011-12-13 20:46:47 <sipa> jgarzik: to me, it's a cleanup, with a side effect
1202 2011-12-13 20:46:56 <gavinandresen> too risky for 0.5.1
1203 2011-12-13 20:47:01 <luke-jr> O.o
1204 2011-12-13 20:47:03 <luke-jr> what risk?
1205 2011-12-13 20:47:20 <sipa> not very risky, but not urgent either - it can wait for 0.6
1206 2011-12-13 20:47:20 <jgarzik> sipa: agreed
1207 2011-12-13 20:47:24 <wumpus> yes, let's only merge #700
1208 2011-12-13 20:47:24 <jgarzik> x 2
1209 2011-12-13 20:47:40 <luke-jr> there's literally zero risk to 677, and certainly much more riskier non-fix things in 0.5.1 already
1210 2011-12-13 20:47:43 <gavinandresen> And more DNS seeds?  What's the status of that?
1211 2011-12-13 20:47:55 <BlueMatt> names reserved, seeds not yet up
1212 2011-12-13 20:48:00 <BlueMatt> but worth adding to bitcoin before release
1213 2011-12-13 20:48:06 <BlueMatt> (they cant hurt anything)
1214 2011-12-13 20:48:20 <gavinandresen> mmm.... famous last words...
1215 2011-12-13 20:48:22 <sipa> since dns seeding is in a separate thread, it hardly matters
1216 2011-12-13 20:48:32 <gavinandresen> (along with "it'll only take 10 seconds")  (and "it's no risk")
1217 2011-12-13 20:48:41 <BlueMatt> fu
1218 2011-12-13 20:48:46 <gavinandresen> :-)
1219 2011-12-13 20:49:01 <luke-jr> SecureStrings are higher risk than 677 & DNS seeds :P
1220 2011-12-13 20:49:05 <BlueMatt> it only did take 10 seconds, f'ing apple just broke it
1221 2011-12-13 20:49:09 <[Tycho]> Oh, good to remember.
1222 2011-12-13 20:49:13 <makomk> SecureStrings?
1223 2011-12-13 20:49:21 <sipa> luke-jr: agree, but they had more impact as well
1224 2011-12-13 20:49:25 <[Tycho]> It's time to mess with the main blockchain.
1225 2011-12-13 20:49:29 <luke-jr> makomk: refactor of mlock'd strings
1226 2011-12-13 20:49:35 <luke-jr> sipa: no practical impact
1227 2011-12-13 20:49:46 <wumpus> there's just no need to merge it last-minute
1228 2011-12-13 20:49:55 <sipa> wumpus: exacylu
1229 2011-12-13 20:49:56 <sipa> y
1230 2011-12-13 20:50:03 <luke-jr> DNS seeds there is :P
1231 2011-12-13 20:50:31 <makomk> Ah, I see.
1232 2011-12-13 20:51:15 <wumpus> yes with adding dns seeds I don't really see the problem, then again, it'd be better to test it a while before a release
1233 2011-12-13 20:51:46 m86 has joined
1234 2011-12-13 20:52:21 <gavinandresen> Agreed, lets get the 0.6 party started and test the heck out of the new DNS seeds, tweaked fees, and all the other nifty new stuff.
1235 2011-12-13 20:52:35 <BlueMatt> absolutely
1236 2011-12-13 20:52:37 <gavinandresen> ... and get 0.5.1 out the door
1237 2011-12-13 20:52:37 <wumpus> yep
1238 2011-12-13 20:52:42 <sipa> ok
1239 2011-12-13 20:52:45 <BlueMatt> (dnsseeds in 0.5.1 though)
1240 2011-12-13 20:53:57 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: you're aware we *lost* DNS seeds for 0.5.0?
1241 2011-12-13 20:54:06 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: yup
1242 2011-12-13 20:54:18 <sipa> BlueMatt: so, after you've connected to a potential node, you wait for some time, to see if you get addr messages?
1243 2011-12-13 20:54:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: no, you have to send addr first
1244 2011-12-13 20:54:39 <BlueMatt> (as of 0.4.X, for some value of X)
1245 2011-12-13 20:54:51 <sipa> huh
1246 2011-12-13 20:55:19 <BlueMatt> in some 0.4.X version, I dont remember which, nodes will only send addr message after getting one from the node which connected
1247 2011-12-13 20:55:33 <sipa> can't remember that change
1248 2011-12-13 20:55:36 <luke-jr> jgarzik: re splitting 677 up, wouldn't it make sense to do the bugfix first?
1249 2011-12-13 20:55:43 <gavinandresen> Hall Finney's "shy client" patch
1250 2011-12-13 20:55:48 <luke-jr> jgarzik: right now, the block accepting code is passing fForRelay=true
1251 2011-12-13 20:55:50 <BlueMatt> sipa: it was a LONG time ago...
1252 2011-12-13 20:55:58 <BlueMatt> like before I came to bitcoin
1253 2011-12-13 20:55:59 <sipa> oh, that was way before 0.4
1254 2011-12-13 20:56:11 <BlueMatt> oh, I thought it was early 0.4.X
1255 2011-12-13 20:56:14 <luke-jr> jgarzik: so it IS definitely a bug, and I'd need to port the bug to minfee_modes to do it the other order
1256 2011-12-13 20:56:17 <sipa> 0.3.21 or so
1257 2011-12-13 20:56:30 <BlueMatt> oh, 0.3 is what I meant
1258 2011-12-13 20:57:37 <gavinandresen> wumpus: no objections to pulling 700 and starting to build a 0.5.1rc2 ?  (Matt: sorry, the extra dns seeds can wait)
1259 2011-12-13 20:57:50 <BlueMatt> mmm...
1260 2011-12-13 20:57:51 JZavala has joined
1261 2011-12-13 20:57:52 <wumpus> nope
1262 2011-12-13 20:58:04 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r7ca47ce / (5 files): Fix status bar not displaying Alerts. - http://git.io/jrA7Kw https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/7ca47cece7854a4efb4a8dcb68b93edbde1a76fb
1263 2011-12-13 20:58:04 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rb12fc3e / (5 files): Merge pull request #700 from TheBlueMatt/qtalertfix ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/b12fc3e11223557855bb2394e1097afbf0de0b79
1264 2011-12-13 21:00:20 <luke-jr> …
1265 2011-12-13 21:00:42 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: can I pull his DNS seeds into 0.5.x for 0.5.2?
1266 2011-12-13 21:00:58 <BlueMatt> yes
1267 2011-12-13 21:01:01 <wumpus> sure, you can add it to next version
1268 2011-12-13 21:01:03 <luke-jr> actually IMO, BlueMatt should trump gavinandresen on this, since BlueMatt is running the ONLY DNS seed right now
1269 2011-12-13 21:01:04 <wumpus> that's the idea
1270 2011-12-13 21:01:07 <BlueMatt> (its a bugfix)
1271 2011-12-13 21:01:15 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I dont think that qualifies me for anything...
1272 2011-12-13 21:01:18 <wumpus> luke-jr: is he?
1273 2011-12-13 21:01:25 <luke-jr> ie, not adding the other seeds puts more load on his
1274 2011-12-13 21:01:26 <luke-jr> wumpus: yes
1275 2011-12-13 21:01:28 <gavinandresen> (but guess who is paying for it....)
1276 2011-12-13 21:01:35 <wumpus> hm I did not know we had only one dnsseed left
1277 2011-12-13 21:01:38 <luke-jr> wumpus: jgarzik's node is just a static list
1278 2011-12-13 21:01:43 <luke-jr> s/node/seed/
1279 2011-12-13 21:01:45 <wumpus> that's a central point of failure I guess...
1280 2011-12-13 21:01:53 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: oh, you are? :P
1281 2011-12-13 21:02:03 <BlueMatt> yes, gavin pays for the server
1282 2011-12-13 21:02:18 <luke-jr> oh well
1283 2011-12-13 21:02:20 <jgarzik> IMO additional seeds are very important for good network health and startup times
1284 2011-12-13 21:02:41 <TD> if there was a dnsseed program that was easy to run, i'd set one up on my private server
1285 2011-12-13 21:02:45 <wumpus> me too
1286 2011-12-13 21:02:55 <jgarzik> it is false to imply that the static list does not work, because my tests (as recent as two days ago) show it continues to work just fine
1287 2011-12-13 21:03:35 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it's not a proper DNS seed though, IMO
1288 2011-12-13 21:04:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: due to weird recursive resolvers your list may return only a single result to a client... making it kinda crappy if that one result is down.
1289 2011-12-13 21:04:24 <jgarzik> we can argue about propriety all day.  the only interesting question to me is whether or not it gets users successfully onto the network, slurping additional hosts via peer exchange.  and the answer is yes.
1290 2011-12-13 21:04:41 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no argument...
1291 2011-12-13 21:04:43 <BlueMatt> TD: hey, mine works fine, its just not well written...
1292 2011-12-13 21:04:50 <luke-jr> anyhow
1293 2011-12-13 21:04:57 FlipPro has joined
1294 2011-12-13 21:05:02 <TD> heh
1295 2011-12-13 21:05:03 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: is it OK with you if I put the new DNS seeds into 0.5.2?
1296 2011-12-13 21:05:09 SomeoneWeirdzzzz is now known as SomoeoneWeird
1297 2011-12-13 21:05:13 <jgarzik> so, as soon as any _stable_, _trusted_ DNS seed appears, add it ASAP to master
1298 2011-12-13 21:05:24 <luke-jr> if so, any more time wasted on 0.5.1 is pointless IMO
1299 2011-12-13 21:05:49 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: sure.  But I think you're wasting your time creating releases that very few people use.
1300 2011-12-13 21:06:04 <BlueMatt> ouch
1301 2011-12-13 21:06:24 <wumpus> BlueMatt: but is it easy to set up on a VPS? 
1302 2011-12-13 21:06:33 FlipPro has quit (Client Quit)
1303 2011-12-13 21:07:02 <BlueMatt> wumpus: uhh...kinda
1304 2011-12-13 21:07:21 <wumpus> what kind of traffic do you get?
1305 2011-12-13 21:07:38 <BlueMatt> I dunno, ask gavinandresen
1306 2011-12-13 21:07:43 <luke-jr> lol
1307 2011-12-13 21:10:03 <gavinandresen> wumpus: the jenkins and dns seed machine (same machine at EC2) is getting about 10 megabytes a day of network traffic in
1308 2011-12-13 21:10:44 <wumpus> 10 MEGAbytes? ok that's really not much
1309 2011-12-13 21:11:00 <gavinandresen> yes, 10,000,000 bytes.
1310 2011-12-13 21:11:45 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1311 2011-12-13 21:12:26 BlueMatt has joined
1312 2011-12-13 21:20:17 <sipa> TD: i'm working on a special dnsseeder tool (in C++)
1313 2011-12-13 21:20:32 <TD> cool
1314 2011-12-13 21:20:39 <luke-jr> O.o
1315 2011-12-13 21:20:41 <wumpus> how is it better than bluematt's?
1316 2011-12-13 21:20:45 * luke-jr would expect something like that to be C
1317 2011-12-13 21:21:00 <luke-jr> wumpus: BlueMatt's was down the other day, at least :P
1318 2011-12-13 21:21:01 <sipa> luke-jr: currently it's C, but i'm pondering switching to C++
1319 2011-12-13 21:21:10 <wumpus> lol no use argueing about programming languages
1320 2011-12-13 21:21:12 <luke-jr> sipa: what for?
1321 2011-12-13 21:21:26 <sipa> luke-jr: stl vectors, sets, ...
1322 2011-12-13 21:21:28 <luke-jr> wumpus: who's arguing
1323 2011-12-13 21:21:32 <wumpus> just makt it in a language you're most effective in
1324 2011-12-13 21:21:39 <wumpus> so you get stuff done
1325 2011-12-13 21:21:43 <sipa> wumpus: BlueMatt's system is bind + php tool
1326 2011-12-13 21:23:26 <wumpus> sipa: right, so he's using off-the-shelf tools, and you want to reinvent the wheel? :p
1327 2011-12-13 21:23:50 <sipa> exactly
1328 2011-12-13 21:23:53 <wumpus> hehe
1329 2011-12-13 21:24:10 <luke-jr> wumpus: why didn't you use PHP and produce HTML for QWebKit to write Bitcoin-Qt?
1330 2011-12-13 21:24:12 <luke-jr> :p
1331 2011-12-13 21:24:32 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well BlueMatt's stuff requires a lot of memory.
1332 2011-12-13 21:24:35 <wumpus> we're the knights that say NIH
1333 2011-12-13 21:24:43 <wumpus> luke-jr: lol!
1334 2011-12-13 21:24:47 <sipa> wumpus: in addition, it'll use far less system resources, and i can return different IP's for each query (instead of having to continuously signal bind to reload a rewritten name file)
1335 2011-12-13 21:24:47 <luke-jr> wumpus: not the Qt4 dance?
1336 2011-12-13 21:24:48 <gmaxwell> wumpus: this is not good if we want to run the tool in cheap low memory virtual hosts.
1337 2011-12-13 21:25:30 <gmaxwell> wumpus: also, some seed software diversity is good.. so someone can't break/compromise all of them at once.
1338 2011-12-13 21:25:41 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, that's true
1339 2011-12-13 21:26:12 <luke-jr> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbTEVbQLC8s
1340 2011-12-13 21:26:53 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Matt Corallo 0.5.0.x * r181b863d224b bitcoind-stable/src/qt/ (5 files): Fix status bar not displaying Alerts. http://tinyurl.com/bwjnqgh
1341 2011-12-13 21:27:15 osmosis has joined
1342 2011-12-13 21:27:19 <wumpus> there was a person on the forums that actually wanted to implement the bitcoin gui as a javascript application running in webkit
1343 2011-12-13 21:27:50 <wumpus> but I think there was no PHP involved
1344 2011-12-13 21:28:49 <xenland> luke-jr: wtf
1345 2011-12-13 21:29:04 <xenland> luke-jr: I can't look at youtube the same way anymore....
1346 2011-12-13 21:29:52 num1 has joined
1347 2011-12-13 21:29:59 <luke-jr> :D
1348 2011-12-13 21:35:26 splatster has joined
1349 2011-12-13 21:36:15 <splatster> Here is my idea for expanding bitcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54444.0
1350 2011-12-13 21:36:26 <splatster> Any thoughts?
1351 2011-12-13 21:37:33 <luke-jr> splatster: why would any of the credit/debit networks help Bitcoin kill them off?
1352 2011-12-13 21:37:55 <gavinandresen> splatster: better subject for #bitcoin rather than #bitcoin-dev
1353 2011-12-13 21:38:11 <luke-jr> splatster: also keep in mind that converting Bitcoins to cash hurts the market, which is what you're proposing to happen with basically every sale
1354 2011-12-13 21:38:20 <xenland> Splatster: me and a buddy of mine had the exact same idea, We were looking into "Payroll" debit cards that we could supply to bitcoiners and use Visa as the processing payment. Of course they are so huge nobody knows whats going on it would have worked
1355 2011-12-13 21:38:20 the_batman has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1356 2011-12-13 21:38:21 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: not like we're talking here right now :P
1357 2011-12-13 21:38:27 <gmaxwell> meh
1358 2011-12-13 21:38:33 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
1359 2011-12-13 21:38:46 tower has joined
1360 2011-12-13 21:38:50 <splatster> yes and this would allow non techy people to use it
1361 2011-12-13 21:38:59 <gmaxwell> Mtgox had suggested they were going to do this, but it hasn't really happened, there is a third party service that does (name escapes me) but the fees are very high (like 5%)
1362 2011-12-13 21:39:08 SomoeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeird
1363 2011-12-13 21:39:09 <xenland> You need some funding
1364 2011-12-13 21:39:23 <xenland> and a secure website
1365 2011-12-13 21:39:28 <xenland> and your idea can work
1366 2011-12-13 21:39:35 <gmaxwell> It's a fine idea, someone should do it. But the hard part is navigating the regulatory and funding mess. If it were easy it would already be done.
1367 2011-12-13 21:40:11 <xenland> yeah you'll need alot of employees for converting, approving and funding. then of course paid training
1368 2011-12-13 21:40:30 <xenland> (Converting = Converting bitcoins)
1369 2011-12-13 21:40:35 the_batman has joined
1370 2011-12-13 21:40:58 <xenland> So splatster.... you got funding? Cuz I got web skills
1371 2011-12-13 21:41:01 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1372 2011-12-13 21:41:04 <gmaxwell> This is our new employee 'perl', he'll be sitting over by php and helping with the transaction processing during business hours.
1373 2011-12-13 21:41:22 <splatster> i got some web skills too but inlack the funding
1374 2011-12-13 21:41:44 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r8770ac2056d2 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (5 files): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt: bump to 0.5.1_rc2 and 0.5.0.1_rc2 http://tinyurl.com/cdjflck
1375 2011-12-13 21:41:49 <xenland> GLBSE?
1376 2011-12-13 21:42:12 <splatster> im fine with any sort of server side scripting ( its what i do)
1377 2011-12-13 21:42:12 <luke-jr> web skills are useless for that kind of thing
1378 2011-12-13 21:42:27 <splatster> verification would be simple
1379 2011-12-13 21:43:19 <luke-jr> I bet you could setup a fully functional Bitcoin acceptance POS in many stores if you offered to set it up for them, and not charge a fee :P
1380 2011-12-13 21:43:24 <splatster> just make sure they have enough bitcoins in their wallet based in the exchange rate
1381 2011-12-13 21:43:50 <luke-jr> splatster: what exchange rate?
1382 2011-12-13 21:44:06 <splatster> people dont want to have to add a new terminal for every store
1383 2011-12-13 21:44:11 <xenland> splatster: yes. but that also poses a problem of maybe your short on cash becuase the exchange rate changed very breifly
1384 2011-12-13 21:44:32 <luke-jr> "instant sells" should be discourage, in any form
1385 2011-12-13 21:44:38 <luke-jr> that pushes the price down
1386 2011-12-13 21:44:46 <splatster> the rate would have to be smoothed to some extent
1387 2011-12-13 21:45:10 <xenland> I was thinking they could just fund their visa payroll card when they wanted to on their phone or home computer
1388 2011-12-13 21:45:21 <xenland> No exchange rate hassels
1389 2011-12-13 21:47:03 <luke-jr> conversion on demand is the problem
1390 2011-12-13 21:47:07 <splatster> im currently on my phone so i have a bit of trouble typing. posts on the forum will get better responses from me when i get back to my desk
1391 2011-12-13 21:47:19 <luke-jr> if you're going to sell, you should set a price close to the other people waiting to sell
1392 2011-12-13 21:47:23 <luke-jr> or higher
1393 2011-12-13 21:47:26 <luke-jr> and wait for a buyer
1394 2011-12-13 21:47:59 <splatster> im saying conversion is imediate nor does it need ro be
1395 2011-12-13 21:48:04 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1396 2011-12-13 21:48:17 <splatster> NOT imediate
1397 2011-12-13 21:48:30 underscor has joined
1398 2011-12-13 21:49:03 <splatster> the exchange foots the bill and puts in an offer on the exchange. except the resulting funds go tonthem to cover the transaction
1399 2011-12-13 21:49:55 <splatster> step 1: card swiped. exchange verifys and pays imediately
1400 2011-12-13 21:50:20 <splatster> step 2: exchange puts in an offeee on the exchange
1401 2011-12-13 21:51:04 <splatster> step 3: offer gets fulfilled and the exchange gets their money back in the currency it was orriginally spent
1402 2011-12-13 21:52:53 <xenland> that requires to setup an exchange which is a problem in it self and good luck conviencing current exchanges to not take the idea for them selves
1403 2011-12-13 21:53:20 <splatster> im not trying to make money off of my idea
1404 2011-12-13 21:53:54 <splatster> i want to walk over to a gas station and pay with bitcoins
1405 2011-12-13 21:54:06 tower has joined
1406 2011-12-13 21:54:17 <splatster> the gas station wont change. sobwhy dont we make a bridge for the two
1407 2011-12-13 21:56:55 <xenland> send your idea to the exchanges then. That would be the first place get the idea some momentum
1408 2011-12-13 21:57:30 <gmaxwell> they are already aware of this idea.
1409 2011-12-13 21:57:46 <splatster> i want to get it as fleshed ou as possible on the forums or the wiki before i make too much of an ass of myself
1410 2011-12-13 21:58:26 <splatster> gmaxwell: why have they held off?
1411 2011-12-13 21:59:21 molecular has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1412 2011-12-13 22:00:22 <gmaxwell> splatster: because the only really hard part is really really hard: which is the difficulty of navigating the regulatory issues with being a card provider.
1413 2011-12-13 22:00:46 <gmaxwell> (e.g. a bank from the perspective of the processing agencies)
1414 2011-12-13 22:01:01 <splatster> yes i understand
1415 2011-12-13 22:01:11 <splatster> but the money that is in it for them
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1417 2011-12-13 22:10:45 <ohzer0> has anyone been experiencing timeouts during API calls? I'm getting spikes of high disk IO that cause my API calls to timeout
1418 2011-12-13 22:11:50 molecular has joined
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1420 2011-12-13 22:14:50 <gavinandresen> ohzer0: have you tried running with -rpctimeout=600 ?
1421 2011-12-13 22:15:19 <[eval]> less than 1 day till we reach 37.5% of all bitcoins created (or 3/4 of all bitcoins scheduled to be created during this phase of inflation)
1422 2011-12-13 22:15:35 <gavinandresen> ohzer0:  ... I'm assuming you're talking about JSON-RPC calls to bitcoind timing out...
1423 2011-12-13 22:15:46 <ohzer0> from what i've read that's just the timeout to recieve a response from the requester
1424 2011-12-13 22:15:57 <ohzer0> gavinandresen: i am, yes
1425 2011-12-13 22:16:03 splatster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1427 2011-12-13 22:17:09 <ohzer0> the problem is the requester is timing out the session because the wallet is taking too long to respond. then it finishes and the requester times out failing its task
1428 2011-12-13 22:17:11 <gavinandresen> ohzer0: rpctimeout will get triggered if one of the API calls takes too long (more than 30 seconds by default) to respond.
1429 2011-12-13 22:17:19 Kobier_ is now known as kobier
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1433 2011-12-13 22:17:36 <gavinandresen> ... and that could happen if you're running on an underpowered server
1434 2011-12-13 22:17:39 <ohzer0> gavinandresen: will it rollback any changes say from a move() then?
1435 2011-12-13 22:17:55 <ohzer0> ie. if it doesn't complete the request within the timeout
1436 2011-12-13 22:18:54 <ohzer0> well i can certainly beef up the system, but i wondering/asking about a better solution
1437 2011-12-13 22:19:07 Cryo has joined
1438 2011-12-13 22:19:11 <ohzer0> since beefing up systems may not scale
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1440 2011-12-13 22:20:21 <gavinandresen> RE: rolling back: the move will either happen or it won't, but it could possibly happen and then the thread gets killed JUST before it returns.  Unlikely, though...
1441 2011-12-13 22:20:47 <gavinandresen> ... more likely the RPC call will get killed while waiting for a lock on the wallet or block-chain
1442 2011-12-13 22:20:56 devrandom has joined
1443 2011-12-13 22:20:57 <ohzer0> so then there is a chanec it could complete and then timeout?
1444 2011-12-13 22:21:03 <ohzer0> chance*
1445 2011-12-13 22:21:09 <gavinandresen> ohzer0: yes, there is a chance
1446 2011-12-13 22:22:07 <ohzer0> okay, i guess my only options are to change timeout values and/or increase specs
1447 2011-12-13 22:22:23 <ohzer0> do you know what the cause might be for high disk reading during a getbalance() request?
1448 2011-12-13 22:23:00 <gavinandresen> ohzer0: if a big transaction with lots of inputs comes in then there will be lots of disk reading to fetch and validate them
1449 2011-12-13 22:23:43 <ohzer0> okay, thanks a lot gavin
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1454 2011-12-13 22:33:03 <gavinandresen> Another day, another release candidate... rc2 binaries are up on sourceforge.
1455 2011-12-13 22:33:20 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
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1457 2011-12-13 22:36:10 <helo> it would be nice if ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin had bitcoin{-qt,}-unstable packages
1458 2011-12-13 22:37:17 <helo> would possibly get a lot more testing before releases
1459 2011-12-13 22:38:06 <luke-jr> helo: Gentoo has testing and git packages
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1497 2011-12-13 23:42:18 macintosh264 has joined
1498 2011-12-13 23:42:31 <macintosh264> I need help with bitcoinj
1499 2011-12-13 23:42:39 <macintosh264> Anyone here know anything?
1500 2011-12-13 23:43:11 <TD> you have issues with slf4j, right
1501 2011-12-13 23:43:17 <Diablo-D3> oh dear lord
1502 2011-12-13 23:43:18 <macintosh264> No
1503 2011-12-13 23:43:18 <Diablo-D3> slf4j
1504 2011-12-13 23:43:24 <macintosh264> It is with IRCDiscovery
1505 2011-12-13 23:43:24 tower has joined
1506 2011-12-13 23:43:38 <macintosh264> IrcDiscovery
1507 2011-12-13 23:43:40 <macintosh264> Sorry
1508 2011-12-13 23:43:44 <TD> ok
1509 2011-12-13 23:43:46 <TD> what's the issue
1510 2011-12-13 23:43:49 <macintosh264> I am getting an exception when doing this
1511 2011-12-13 23:43:54 <macintosh264> 		peerGroup.addPeerDiscovery(new IrcDiscovery("bitcoinTEST"));
1512 2011-12-13 23:43:54 <Diablo-D3> td: you know what I did? I quit java.
1513 2011-12-13 23:44:03 <macintosh264> Diablo-D3: I wish
1514 2011-12-13 23:44:07 <macintosh264> I hate java
1515 2011-12-13 23:44:08 slush has joined
1516 2011-12-13 23:44:12 <Diablo-D3> oh, no, see, I liked java
1517 2011-12-13 23:44:14 <TD> macintosh264: what's the exception
1518 2011-12-13 23:44:24 <macintosh264> RROR com.google.bitcoin.core.PeerGroup - Failed to discover peer addresses from discovery source com.google.bitcoin.discovery.PeerDiscoveryException: Connection reset
1519 2011-12-13 23:44:30 <Diablo-D3> and between the fact post-javaee6 javaee still sucks massive dongs, and oracle can shove it up their ass
1520 2011-12-13 23:44:32 <Diablo-D3> fuck java
1521 2011-12-13 23:44:38 <macintosh264> Caused by: java.net.SocketException: Connection reset
1522 2011-12-13 23:44:40 <Diablo-D3> macintosh264: errrmm
1523 2011-12-13 23:44:59 <Diablo-D3> that sounds a lot like the remote server was down and TD needs to handle exceptions better
1524 2011-12-13 23:45:00 <macintosh264> Diablo-D3: ???
1525 2011-12-13 23:45:03 <TD> that's weird. can you connect to the channel with a real irc client?
1526 2011-12-13 23:45:16 <macintosh264> It is bitcoinTEST
1527 2011-12-13 23:45:21 <macintosh264> So It is not a normal case
1528 2011-12-13 23:45:33 <TD> the issue is apparently connecting to lfnet, which is the same
1529 2011-12-13 23:45:40 <macintosh264> Yah
1530 2011-12-13 23:45:57 <macintosh264> I am running a client
1531 2011-12-13 23:46:01 <macintosh264> And it is fine
1532 2011-12-13 23:46:15 <macintosh264> 17 connections
1533 2011-12-13 23:46:18 <macintosh264> Testnet
1534 2011-12-13 23:46:22 <macintosh264> Should I try DNS
1535 2011-12-13 23:46:23 <TD> i mean an IRC client
1536 2011-12-13 23:46:26 <TD> not a bitcoin client
1537 2011-12-13 23:46:32 <macintosh264> Oh wait, testnet has no DNS
1538 2011-12-13 23:46:38 <macintosh264> No, I know
1539 2011-12-13 23:46:39 <TD> can you connect to irc.lfnet.org port 6667
1540 2011-12-13 23:46:48 <macintosh264> I ment, the client is connecting fine
1541 2011-12-13 23:46:55 <macintosh264> So why wouldn't bitcoinj
1542 2011-12-13 23:47:02 <TD> the regular bitcoin client has a variety of ways to connect
1543 2011-12-13 23:47:07 <TD> IRC and the hard-coded seed list.
1544 2011-12-13 23:47:08 <macintosh264> Oh
1545 2011-12-13 23:47:11 <TD> you're only adding IRC
1546 2011-12-13 23:47:14 <macintosh264> True
1547 2011-12-13 23:47:23 <TD> try running "telnet irc.lfnet.org 6667"
1548 2011-12-13 23:47:25 <TD> from the command line
1549 2011-12-13 23:47:30 <TD> and see what it says. you may be on a network that blocks IRC
1550 2011-12-13 23:47:41 <TD> in which case, no problem, just point your bitcoinj app at a testnet bitcoin node
1551 2011-12-13 23:47:43 <TD> like a local node
1552 2011-12-13 23:47:47 <macintosh264> Trying 193.107.204.22... Connected to irc.lfnet.org. Escape character is '^]'. :irc.lechat.ir NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... :irc.lechat.ir NOTICE AUTH :*** Found your hostname
1553 2011-12-13 23:47:52 <macintosh264> I did that
1554 2011-12-13 23:47:52 <TD> or a testnet-in-a-box, which is normally more useful
1555 2011-12-13 23:47:57 <macintosh264> and I got another exception
1556 2011-12-13 23:48:04 <macintosh264> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54521.0
1557 2011-12-13 23:48:14 <macintosh264> brb, 10 min, sorry, food. Thanks
1558 2011-12-13 23:48:22 <TD> interesting
1559 2011-12-13 23:48:23 minimoose has joined
1560 2011-12-13 23:48:26 <TD> where did you get an alert from??
1561 2011-12-13 23:48:30 <TD> there's one on the testnet nowadays?
1562 2011-12-13 23:50:06 <TD> huh
1563 2011-12-13 23:50:10 <TD> looks like a regression
1564 2011-12-13 23:50:26 <Diablo-D3> td: I love those
1565 2011-12-13 23:50:33 <Diablo-D3> HEY DIABLO, HERES DIFF 1 SUPPORT
1566 2011-12-13 23:50:46 <Diablo-D3> diff 1? what the fuck is a diff 1? oh right, that thing we saw 2 years ago and never went back to
1567 2011-12-13 23:52:29 <TD> macintosh264: i posted to your thread. you're getting pretty unlucky with the errors, huh.
1568 2011-12-13 23:52:30 graingert has left ()
1569 2011-12-13 23:52:35 <TD> guess we should write some more detailed docs for how to use maven
1570 2011-12-13 23:54:37 <TD> macintosh264: btw there is a mailing list
1571 2011-12-13 23:54:45 <TD> macintosh264: you can ask questions there and get better support: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bitcoinj
1572 2011-12-13 23:55:10 * TD -> sleep
1573 2011-12-13 23:55:11 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1574 2011-12-13 23:55:23 <macintosh264> I'm back
1575 2011-12-13 23:55:23 <macintosh264> Sorry
1576 2011-12-13 23:57:30 <macintosh264> TD: I know you are gone, but I use eclipse, not maven