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   7 2011-12-16 00:06:55 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * r1dee4ba68c9c gentoo/net-p2p/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into maintree http://tinyurl.com/c9qvdnu
   8 2011-12-16 00:07:15 <sipa> tcatm: thx
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  24 2011-12-16 00:42:11 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.5.0.x * r98c0b8b85ed1 bitcoind-stable/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Bump version to 0.5.0.2 http://tinyurl.com/c4xk3va
  25 2011-12-16 00:42:13 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.5.0.x * race5ce05bef6 bitcoind-stable/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Bump version to 0.5.0.3 http://tinyurl.com/d539ous
  26 2011-12-16 00:45:49 <luke-jr> ]later tell BlueMatt don't build 0.5.0.1, I forgot to bump its version; use 0.5.0.2
  27 2011-12-16 00:45:57 <luke-jr> ;;later tell BlueMatt don't build 0.5.0.1, I forgot to bump its version; use 0.5.0.2
  28 2011-12-16 00:45:57 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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  30 2011-12-16 00:46:52 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr maintree * r22b3f8016ce7 gentoo/net-p2p/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into maintree http://tinyurl.com/6lj763z
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  43 2011-12-16 01:16:20 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: you have a gribble msg waiting
  44 2011-12-16 01:16:34 <luke-jr> I do?
  45 2011-12-16 01:16:47 <luke-jr> :P
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  92 2011-12-16 03:01:40 * BlueMatt just realized the dns-based bitcoin-address aliasing scheme doesnt work on some dumb dial-up isps (period)
  93 2011-12-16 03:03:27 <gmaxwell> bitcoin-address aliasing scheme?
  94 2011-12-16 03:03:38 <BlueMatt> the whole user@domain stuff
  95 2011-12-16 03:04:21 <BlueMatt> the problem is for it to be secure you HAVE to implement a full dnssec-resolving dns recursor in bitcoin
  96 2011-12-16 03:04:56 <BlueMatt> and since some ISPs intercept all dns traffic and forward it to their own dns servers instead of letting it out onto the open web (ok, so Ive only seen it once, but still) you break the security model
  97 2011-12-16 03:05:05 copumpkin has joined
  98 2011-12-16 03:05:25 <BlueMatt> (as isp-resolved dns records wont have a full verifiable dnssec chain in them)
  99 2011-12-16 03:05:39 <BlueMatt> also, https is just a generally better idea :)
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 103 2011-12-16 03:10:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: sure, yea, you can't count on DNS working right now.
 104 2011-12-16 03:10:15 <gmaxwell> I've personally had an ISP that did that, and I ended up setting up a ipv6 forwarder.
 105 2011-12-16 03:10:21 <gmaxwell> (and later switched ISPs)
 106 2011-12-16 03:10:34 <BlueMatt> ok, so why is dns as an aliasing scheme being considered?
 107 2011-12-16 03:12:11 <gmaxwell> I didn't know that it was. You've got me.
 108 2011-12-16 03:12:19 <BlueMatt> heh
 109 2011-12-16 03:12:30 <gmaxwell> oh, thats that aliasing thread.. 0015? yea, I haven't opened that one.
 110 2011-12-16 03:12:37 <gmaxwell> I thought it was about address book entries.
 111 2011-12-16 03:12:53 <BlueMatt> heh, Ive read like 3 of the emails out of what, like 30?
 112 2011-12-16 03:13:09 <luke-jr> aliasing thread seems too far gone, I don't read it anymore
 113 2011-12-16 03:13:09 snimpy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 114 2011-12-16 03:13:42 <BlueMatt> well dns isnt an option, so its https or someone come up with a better idea
 115 2011-12-16 03:13:53 <luke-jr> no matter what, aliases make Bitcoin centralized.
 116 2011-12-16 03:14:10 <BlueMatt> pretty much
 117 2011-12-16 03:14:31 <luke-jr> I think we should stick to addresses and non-human-readable URIs
 118 2011-12-16 03:14:32 <BlueMatt> unless you do aliascoin and make bitcoin nodes join that chain too...
 119 2011-12-16 03:14:42 <BlueMatt> I still think URIs are much better than aliases
 120 2011-12-16 03:14:45 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 121 2011-12-16 03:14:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: also, any alias system makes a squatting rush
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 123 2011-12-16 03:14:59 <luke-jr> sure
 124 2011-12-16 03:15:10 <BlueMatt> but, frankly, I dont have any preferences https-alias or no-alias
 125 2011-12-16 03:15:21 <luke-jr> bitcoin://dashjr.org/<address>
 126 2011-12-16 03:15:33 <BlueMatt> anyway, just thought I'd share the dns-scene-doesnt-work-period idea, back to studying for me
 127 2011-12-16 03:16:02 <luke-jr> require the server to sign its SSL key with <address>, then they can renegotiate a new one for the real send
 128 2011-12-16 03:16:31 <BlueMatt> a. thats a pita, b. it doesnt solve the problem of something you can convey over the phone in 10 seconds or less
 129 2011-12-16 03:17:10 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: phones are already centralized and insecure. just use a SMS
 130 2011-12-16 03:17:31 <BlueMatt> you get the point
 131 2011-12-16 03:17:32 <luke-jr> have your cellphone Bitcoin app automate the SMS send/receive even
 132 2011-12-16 03:18:13 <luke-jr> or heck, use e164 :P
 133 2011-12-16 03:18:39 <luke-jr> I suppose we could do bitcoin://domain, and leave the verify-the-key address optional…
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 153 2011-12-16 03:52:01 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix bdb * r86b4802f6a3f / (18 files in 7 dirs): bdb_blockchain organizer. http://tinyurl.com/ca6b9o8
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 291 2011-12-16 10:31:44 <epscy> i had a strange thought last night
 292 2011-12-16 10:32:09 <epscy> is it possible to divide bitcoin infinitely?
 293 2011-12-16 10:32:46 <theymos> No. There are only 8 decimals of precision.
 294 2011-12-16 10:32:56 <epscy> in a theoretical sense, if all nodes updated periodically to support larger and larger denominations of bitcoin
 295 2011-12-16 10:33:04 <sipa> in that case, yes
 296 2011-12-16 10:33:28 <sipa> you mean smaller denominations, i suppose
 297 2011-12-16 10:33:34 <epscy> yeah
 298 2011-12-16 10:33:44 <theymos> It would even be possible to support arbitrary precision, though that'd probably be a waste of resources.
 299 2011-12-16 10:33:59 <epscy> is it possible that if that happened, bitcoin could become inflationary?
 300 2011-12-16 10:34:10 <sipa> that's an entirely different issue
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 304 2011-12-16 10:35:28 <edcba> money representation doesn't influence that :)
 305 2011-12-16 10:36:10 <epscy> i guess my question is, isn't infinitely divisible bitcoins the same as infinite bitcoins?
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 307 2011-12-16 10:36:21 <edcba> no
 308 2011-12-16 10:36:34 <sipa> depends on how you implement the extra division
 309 2011-12-16 10:36:44 <edcba> you have an infinty number between 0 and 1
 310 2011-12-16 10:36:50 <epscy> i imagine every time you did it the economy would devalue
 311 2011-12-16 10:37:00 <edcba> still you have only "1"
 312 2011-12-16 10:37:02 <sipa> if you say that 1 "old" unit (0.00000001 BTC) becomes 1000 new units, there is no problem
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 314 2011-12-16 10:38:19 <theymos> You can break gold into a near-infinite number of gold atoms, and that doesn't cause inflation.
 315 2011-12-16 10:38:24 <epscy> the new lowest denomination would be worth what the old lowest denomination would be worth
 316 2011-12-16 10:38:41 <theymos> Why?
 317 2011-12-16 10:38:45 <epscy> over time that is what i would expect to happen
 318 2011-12-16 10:38:55 <sipa> that's possible
 319 2011-12-16 10:39:03 <sipa> but entirely independent from the division step
 320 2011-12-16 10:39:31 <epscy> ok but assume that does happen, bitcoin becomes infinite no?
 321 2011-12-16 10:40:17 <sipa> you're just describing price inflation
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 323 2011-12-16 10:40:37 <sipa> that may or may not happen, and it's entirely separate from divisibility
 324 2011-12-16 10:40:59 <epscy> i am not sure why you think it is unrelated
 325 2011-12-16 10:41:35 <epscy> i would expect an increase in the supply (including just adding smaller denominations) to cause inflation
 326 2011-12-16 10:42:45 <sipa> it may increase the technical usability of the system, hence causing its fractions to become more valuable, yes
 327 2011-12-16 10:43:46 <epscy> i suppose it is good that these kind of changes have to be made by consensus then
 328 2011-12-16 10:44:00 <sipa> i believe they won't
 329 2011-12-16 10:44:07 <epscy> and good that it could happen if needed
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 331 2011-12-16 10:44:15 <sipa> if more divisibiity is needed, i suppose we'll just move to a successor of bitcoin
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 333 2011-12-16 10:58:47 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 334 2011-12-16 10:59:01 <Eliel> also, a successor of bitcoin can be bootstrapped with bitcoin account balances to begin with, although, I'm not sure if it makes sense to do so.
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 336 2011-12-16 10:59:36 <sipa> that's dangerous - it could work if it reliably detects a destruction of an old bitcoin coin
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 338 2011-12-16 11:00:11 <sipa> otherwise you're basically doing a block chain split, where each old coin becomes spendable once in the origin bitcoin chain, and once in the new system's one
 339 2011-12-16 11:04:35 <Eliel> sipa: I don't see what the bad thing it'd cause is. The new chain is not the same thing, even if the balances are copied over.
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 341 2011-12-16 11:05:11 <Eliel> of course, if the reliable detection of old bitcoin coin destruction is not included, it'll mean quite some uncertainty on what the new coins will be worth but...
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 363 2011-12-16 12:00:50 <epscy> theymos: the difference between dividing btc and gold is that their is a practical physical limit on dividing gold
 364 2011-12-16 12:01:00 <epscy> divide it too much and it becomes unusable
 365 2011-12-16 12:01:37 <epscy> although we do divide gold into very small amounts, but mainly for industrial uses rather than sharing out its value
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 374 2011-12-16 12:08:21 <sipa> epscy: if you'd divide a bitcoin into pieces of 10^-100 BTC, no-one would do transactions with single units either
 375 2011-12-16 12:08:28 <sipa> so there's a practical limit as well
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 379 2011-12-16 12:09:42 <epscy> sipa doesn't that depend entirely on what they are worth?
 380 2011-12-16 12:10:10 <Diablo-D3> no
 381 2011-12-16 12:10:15 <Diablo-D3> btc has a lower size limit
 382 2011-12-16 12:10:28 <Diablo-D3> 8 decimal places below the dot instead of the usual 2
 383 2011-12-16 12:10:40 <epscy> Diablo-D3: I am talking theoretically, if all nodes agreed to change the protocol
 384 2011-12-16 12:11:05 <Diablo-D3> epscy: yes but
 385 2011-12-16 12:11:11 <Diablo-D3> its not a mere protocol change
 386 2011-12-16 12:11:25 <Diablo-D3> I think we're already using longs
 387 2011-12-16 12:11:38 <epscy> i understand that there is a hardware limit
 388 2011-12-16 12:11:40 <sipa> so? there's no problem in using uint256's instead
 389 2011-12-16 12:12:21 <epscy> but theoretically if hardware was keeping up and all nodes upgraded as well as using the new protocol
 390 2011-12-16 12:12:33 <Diablo-D3> sipa: uh, we have to do math on these dude
 391 2011-12-16 12:12:47 <Diablo-D3> I doubt you want to have to use gmp.
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 393 2011-12-16 12:13:00 <phantomcircuit> changing that would require 100% of nodes to upgrade or be vulnerable to a double spend
 394 2011-12-16 12:13:02 <phantomcircuit> so
 395 2011-12-16 12:13:11 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: no
 396 2011-12-16 12:13:12 <sipa> he's talking theoretically about the economic aspect of bitcoin divisibility
 397 2011-12-16 12:13:29 <Diablo-D3> it wouldnt be vulnerable to double spend
 398 2011-12-16 12:13:33 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, ok you can run a dual stack and check for double spends... but still
 399 2011-12-16 12:13:42 <sipa> you just need a new chain
 400 2011-12-16 12:13:43 <sipa> period
 401 2011-12-16 12:13:43 <Diablo-D3> the minority would no longer be able to create transactions or even verify new blocks
 402 2011-12-16 12:13:58 <epscy> yeah this is all completely hypothetical
 403 2011-12-16 12:14:05 <Diablo-D3> blocks have a bitcoin protocol version header, it would need to be incremented.
 404 2011-12-16 12:14:31 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, you could still create blocks recognized by the old client
 405 2011-12-16 12:14:32 <cjdelisle> an easier way would be to accept transactions which had twice the output ad they had input, but only once and only for inputs which were all generated before block X
 406 2011-12-16 12:14:32 <epscy> and I guess I am more interested in the economic affects of repeatedly adding smaller btc denominations
 407 2011-12-16 12:14:39 <epscy> which are hard to predict
 408 2011-12-16 12:14:42 <phantomcircuit> although you would be kind of fighting against the tide
 409 2011-12-16 12:14:54 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: no we cant
 410 2011-12-16 12:15:11 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, remember the double spend would be against an old client
 411 2011-12-16 12:15:15 <phantomcircuit> so of course you could
 412 2011-12-16 12:15:19 <Diablo-D3> no
 413 2011-12-16 12:15:25 <phantomcircuit> uhm yes?
 414 2011-12-16 12:15:40 <Diablo-D3> new clients would refuse to accept transactions that dont have uint256 btc field.
 415 2011-12-16 12:15:44 <phantomcircuit> nobody else would be mining for old version blocks, but you could still do it
 416 2011-12-16 12:15:54 <sipa> and old clients still would
 417 2011-12-16 12:16:01 <Diablo-D3> old clients would not be able to understand transactions with a uint256 btc field
 418 2011-12-16 12:16:06 <phantomcircuit> yes?
 419 2011-12-16 12:16:14 <Diablo-D3> ergo, you could not double spend, you _couldnt spend at all_
 420 2011-12-16 12:16:18 <sipa> so old clients would ignore it
 421 2011-12-16 12:16:31 <Diablo-D3> old clients would have to ignore the whole block as invalid thus be forever stuck in the past
 422 2011-12-16 12:16:35 <sipa> so you get a chain split between old client and new clients
 423 2011-12-16 12:16:36 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, im assuming you're bumping the version number in the transaction field
 424 2011-12-16 12:16:47 <phantomcircuit> which would mean you could select new or old
 425 2011-12-16 12:16:47 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: both block and transaction
 426 2011-12-16 12:16:47 <sipa> and each old coin can be spent in both
 427 2011-12-16 12:17:03 <Diablo-D3> if you're claiming I can double spend on old clients, "no"
 428 2011-12-16 12:17:09 <Diablo-D3> because their chain would never continue
 429 2011-12-16 12:17:14 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, ok so you spend the coins once with a new and once with an old, new clients see the new and refuse the old double spend
 430 2011-12-16 12:17:20 <phantomcircuit> old clients only see the old
 431 2011-12-16 12:17:25 <phantomcircuit> double spend
 432 2011-12-16 12:17:28 <Diablo-D3> they'd be unable to split the chain because they'd keep being told of new blocks on the chain they cant understand
 433 2011-12-16 12:17:39 <sipa> Diablo-D3: and they'd ignore these
 434 2011-12-16 12:17:42 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yup
 435 2011-12-16 12:17:50 <sipa> and not ignore any blocks they mine themselves
 436 2011-12-16 12:17:51 <phantomcircuit> and you'd be able to keep building onto it all by yourself
 437 2011-12-16 12:17:58 <phantomcircuit> it would be slow
 438 2011-12-16 12:17:59 <sipa> which suddenly becomes extremely easy
 439 2011-12-16 12:18:00 <phantomcircuit> but possible
 440 2011-12-16 12:18:01 <Diablo-D3> yet they'd keep trying to mine on a non-cohesive new chain
 441 2011-12-16 12:18:08 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
 442 2011-12-16 12:18:10 <Diablo-D3> which means the double spending happens on phantom coins
 443 2011-12-16 12:18:23 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, coins which SOMEONE thinks have value
 444 2011-12-16 12:18:24 <Diablo-D3> and thus never never happened
 445 2011-12-16 12:18:35 <phantomcircuit> trust me im right?
 446 2011-12-16 12:18:36 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: no, because no one would interact with them
 447 2011-12-16 12:18:47 <phantomcircuit> yes idiots with ancient clients would
 448 2011-12-16 12:18:49 <Diablo-D3> none of the exchanges nor the vendors would use old clients
 449 2011-12-16 12:18:57 <Diablo-D3> so their coins would be de facto worthless
 450 2011-12-16 12:18:59 <phantomcircuit> there are still people with clients joining #bitcoin
 451 2011-12-16 12:19:34 <phantomcircuit> it's possible to prevent it though
 452 2011-12-16 12:19:50 <phantomcircuit> for new transactions simply require a corresponding old transaction that burns the "old" coins
 453 2011-12-16 12:20:06 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: you're overthinking it
 454 2011-12-16 12:22:07 <phantomcircuit> no im just thinking we would need to be very cautious
 455 2011-12-16 12:22:18 <phantomcircuit> it's hard to predict what people will do
 456 2011-12-16 12:22:47 <sipa> if you're not yet certain whether the new standard would be adopted by a significant part of the infrastructure, you would definitely require such a rule that burns old coins
 457 2011-12-16 12:25:26 <phantomcircuit> honestly it will probably just be easier to start a new chain and let people trade both...
 458 2011-12-16 12:25:34 <sipa> indeed
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 465 2011-12-16 12:40:29 <Diablo-D3> [07:20:57] <sipa> if you're not yet certain whether the new standard would be adopted by a significant part of the infrastructure, you would definitely require such a rule that burns old coins
 466 2011-12-16 12:40:37 <Diablo-D3> not explictly burn though
 467 2011-12-16 12:40:46 <Diablo-D3> because new coins would just normally reference old coins
 468 2011-12-16 12:41:14 <sipa> from the point of view of the old system: burn, from the point of view of the new system: use in a new-style tx
 469 2011-12-16 12:44:59 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 470 2011-12-16 12:45:08 <TD> hrmm
 471 2011-12-16 12:45:16 <TD> ThreadSafeMessageBox + Qt seems to create notification bubbles
 472 2011-12-16 12:45:19 <TD> not actually alert boxes
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 475 2011-12-16 12:47:14 <Diablo-D3> sipa: but its burned anyhow
 476 2011-12-16 12:47:46 <sipa> Diablo-D3: yes, in the new chain - but you need an explicit separate burn in the old chain
 477 2011-12-16 12:47:47 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 478 2011-12-16 12:47:58 <Diablo-D3> sipa: but why are we using two chains?
 479 2011-12-16 12:48:00 <Diablo-D3> we only need one.
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 482 2011-12-16 12:48:38 <sipa> Diablo-D3: because old clients will only ever see the old chain
 483 2011-12-16 12:48:48 <sipa> and you must prevent them from doing a double spend
 484 2011-12-16 12:49:15 <sipa> and you can't prevent them from building further upon the old chain
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 487 2011-12-16 12:51:01 <Diablo-D3> but you shouldnt prevent them
 488 2011-12-16 12:51:13 <Diablo-D3> you should just let the double spending happen since it isnt a valid tx according to the majority
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 491 2011-12-16 12:52:32 <sipa> i think you don't see how bad it is for even a minority to think that a double spend is valid
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 493 2011-12-16 12:53:01 <sipa> i sure as hell don't want to be in that minority as a merchant
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 502 2011-12-16 13:00:55 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes, and merchants always run the newest client
 503 2011-12-16 13:00:57 <Diablo-D3> ergo no problem
 504 2011-12-16 13:01:24 <TD> just like all merchants use chip/pin and verified by visa
 505 2011-12-16 13:01:39 <Diablo-D3> verified by visa doesnt work anyhow
 506 2011-12-16 13:02:43 <edcba> verified by visa means visa doesn't do shit
 507 2011-12-16 13:02:57 <edcba> and makes pay merchant if somethings goes wrong :)
 508 2011-12-16 13:03:34 <TD> you'd expect pool operators to run the latest version
 509 2011-12-16 13:03:36 <TD> they don't
 510 2011-12-16 13:04:12 <edcba> like expecting corporate people runs IE9
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 525 2011-12-16 13:32:03 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix bdb * rf828f9093578 /configure.ac: Full optimisations ON. Iff UB exists then I want to suffer. Pain is good. http://tinyurl.com/c48l2u3
 526 2011-12-16 13:32:04 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r5cdf5b35637d /configure.ac: Full optimisations ON. Iff UB exists then I want to suffer. Pain is good. http://tinyurl.com/c53uq22
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 537 2011-12-16 13:58:32 <eueueue> why the page bitcoin.org doesn't show 0.5.1 version?
 538 2011-12-16 13:58:50 <eueueue> ops
 539 2011-12-16 13:58:52 <eueueue> sorry
 540 2011-12-16 13:58:58 <eueueue> didn't refresh
 541 2011-12-16 13:59:04 <eueueue> everything is ok
 542 2011-12-16 13:59:56 <eueueue> Is there any plan to have an option to automatically update bitcoin? something like what firefox does
 543 2011-12-16 14:00:24 <tcatm> sure. once we've figured out how to do that securely
 544 2011-12-16 14:00:46 Nicksasa has joined
 545 2011-12-16 14:00:56 <eueueue> ok
 546 2011-12-16 14:01:27 <edcba> ie signing package with some bitcoin address :)
 547 2011-12-16 14:01:31 JStoker has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 548 2011-12-16 14:02:18 <sipa> probably gpg keys
 549 2011-12-16 14:02:29 <sipa> of gitian builds
 550 2011-12-16 14:02:34 <sipa> by multiple developers
 551 2011-12-16 14:03:35 <kinlo> dunno if that will remain nessesary
 552 2011-12-16 14:03:38 JStoker has joined
 553 2011-12-16 14:04:01 <kinlo> isn't it the task of the package managers we all have sinds like forever on the good operating systems, and the appstores on the others?
 554 2011-12-16 14:04:24 <kinlo> ok, there is one os still a bit behind, but those users are used to that :)
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 556 2011-12-16 14:13:19 <TD> package management is death for updates
 557 2011-12-16 14:13:32 <TD> how fresh is the typical linux distro? answer: they always lag, often by months
 558 2011-12-16 14:13:42 <TD> working auto update for linux/serverside installations is important
 559 2011-12-16 14:13:47 <TD> for the mac, apple doesn't like bitcoin. so forget that.
 560 2011-12-16 14:13:53 <TD> windows has no app store. so forget that too.
 561 2011-12-16 14:14:08 <TD> the only platform that has any kind of working auto update that also accepts bitcoin is android
 562 2011-12-16 14:14:21 <TD> it'd be really good to make auto update easy
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 566 2011-12-16 14:34:23 <Diablo-D3> bwhahaha
 567 2011-12-16 14:34:34 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how long it'll take before the post I just made gets flagged.
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 572 2011-12-16 14:39:52 <wumpus> oh man, that reminds me of windows, with all applications trying to do their own updates and update managers
 573 2011-12-16 14:40:00 <wumpus> I thought we were saved from that crap on linux
 574 2011-12-16 14:40:39 <wumpus> you could always make a ppa with nightly builds if you really want people to always have the latest version
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 579 2011-12-16 15:00:43 <epscy> Diablo-D3: which post?
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 592 2011-12-16 15:33:26 <Diablo-D3> epscy: well if I say then someone will flag it
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 605 2011-12-16 16:17:03 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: whats the url for your 0.4.X and 0.5.0.X git trees
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 608 2011-12-16 16:24:53 <TD> goddamnit
 609 2011-12-16 16:24:55 * TD stabs java logging
 610 2011-12-16 16:25:05 <TD> how can the java community have made such a pigs ear of something so basic
 611 2011-12-16 16:25:08 <TD> devrandom: poke
 612 2011-12-16 16:25:15 <kinlo> mmmz
 613 2011-12-16 16:25:34 <kinlo> did something change in 0.5.1 in the way bitcoin loads it's block index and such?
 614 2011-12-16 16:25:40 <sipa> no
 615 2011-12-16 16:25:42 <BlueMatt> kinlo: why so?
 616 2011-12-16 16:25:50 <kinlo> starting bitcoind is a magnitude slower then previous version
 617 2011-12-16 16:26:07 <sipa> compared to 0.5.0?
 618 2011-12-16 16:26:17 <BlueMatt> no reason to be...
 619 2011-12-16 16:26:26 <kinlo> yeah - I'm running macosx, might be important
 620 2011-12-16 16:26:41 <BlueMatt> still, dont think any code changed there...
 621 2011-12-16 16:27:00 <sipa> only dns seeding changed in the startup process
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 625 2011-12-16 16:30:23 <BlueMatt> mmm, that could be why he sees an improvement, because that could take a ton of time if you dns resolvers are slow (or if a dnsseed is down)
 626 2011-12-16 16:30:52 <sipa> but it became slower, he says
 627 2011-12-16 16:31:03 <BlueMatt> oh, nevermind...
 628 2011-12-16 16:31:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: what are your and luke-jr's dnsseed addresses again?
 629 2011-12-16 16:31:40 <BlueMatt> or to-be-dnsseed addresses?
 630 2011-12-16 16:31:58 <sipa> mine will be seed.bitcoin.sipa.be
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 632 2011-12-16 16:36:50 <kinlo> mmmz
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 634 2011-12-16 16:37:53 <gmaxwell> kinlo: tail debug.log while it starts and see if you can see where its slow
 635 2011-12-16 16:37:59 sacarlson has joined
 636 2011-12-16 16:38:11 <kinlo> http://www.pastie.org/pastes/3027073/text
 637 2011-12-16 16:38:49 <kinlo> kinda weird output
 638 2011-12-16 16:39:03 <kinlo> according to that, 0.4 was also really slow :)
 639 2011-12-16 16:39:17 <kinlo> but 0.5.0 was very fast
 640 2011-12-16 16:39:34 <gmaxwell> oh wow, thats just the raw block index time.
 641 2011-12-16 16:39:45 <gmaxwell> I wonder if people have been orphanblock attacking nodes.
 642 2011-12-16 16:40:03 <gmaxwell> how big is your blkindex.dat?
 643 2011-12-16 16:40:39 <kinlo> -rw-------  1 peter  staff  329281536 Dec 16 17:38 blkindex.dat
 644 2011-12-16 16:41:12 <kinlo> this is on my laptop - disk ain't fast, and I don't run the client often and always for relative short periods
 645 2011-12-16 16:41:46 <gmaxwell> I suspect the fast loads might be warm-cache.
 646 2011-12-16 16:42:20 <kinlo> I did do cold-cache starts too
 647 2011-12-16 16:42:37 <kinlo> let me first just download the block index and then do a few warm starts to see how it goes
 648 2011-12-16 16:42:48 <gmaxwell> Yes, but perhaps those are all the slow ones?
 649 2011-12-16 16:43:02 <kinlo> the warm starts slower then the cold starts?
 650 2011-12-16 16:43:12 <gmaxwell> er fast ones.
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 659 2011-12-16 17:00:57 <kinlo> hmmmz
 660 2011-12-16 17:01:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: git remote add stable git://gitorious.org/+bitcoin-stable-developers/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable.git ; git fetch stable ; git branch -a | grep stable
 661 2011-12-16 17:01:04 <luke-jr> ;)
 662 2011-12-16 17:01:11 <kinlo> ok, it seems that warm reloads are indeed much, much faster
 663 2011-12-16 17:01:19 <kinlo> must be my backup or something pre-heating the index
 664 2011-12-16 17:01:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
 665 2011-12-16 17:01:48 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thanks
 666 2011-12-16 17:02:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: be sure to use the tags, though, as the HEADs are bumped to the next version after the release
 667 2011-12-16 17:02:27 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: will do
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 670 2011-12-16 17:10:34 <devrandom> TD: peek
 671 2011-12-16 17:11:13 <TD> devrandom: how do I force damn JDK logging to actually print everything including FINE. i tried setting the level on the logger and the handler, no dice. i wonder if slf4j is screwing me over
 672 2011-12-16 17:11:58 <devrandom> I'm not very familiar with logging details
 673 2011-12-16 17:12:15 <devrandom> I tend to use the debugger more
 674 2011-12-16 17:12:39 <TD> yeah
 675 2011-12-16 17:12:51 gavinandresen has joined
 676 2011-12-16 17:13:28 <BlueMatt> hey, theres a gavin
 677 2011-12-16 17:13:39 <TD> but i like logging
 678 2011-12-16 17:13:47 * TD is going to have to read the slf4j/jdk source code, urgh
 679 2011-12-16 17:13:48 <TD> oh well
 680 2011-12-16 17:14:04 <gavinandresen> hey, there's matt and mike!
 681 2011-12-16 17:14:11 <[Tycho]> Hello.
 682 2011-12-16 17:14:15 <BlueMatt> wow, the BIP 15 aliasing thread has gone so far off track...
 683 2011-12-16 17:16:00 <TD> devrandom: i have a CL for you to review
 684 2011-12-16 17:16:27 <devrandom> TD: you mean a patch? ;)
 685 2011-12-16 17:16:41 <TD> right
 686 2011-12-16 17:16:44 <TD> a whatever :)
 687 2011-12-16 17:16:46 <TD> http://code.google.com/r/hearn-bitcoinj/source/detail?r=b608f2c4ef88d92fd9b3cb682b1f2c80e4af4ff1&name=pending-tx
 688 2011-12-16 17:16:51 <TD> first cut at tx confidence levels api
 689 2011-12-16 17:16:57 <TD> it's not finished yet. some things are missing
 690 2011-12-16 17:17:15 <BlueMatt> TD: ooo, now thats a cool feature
 691 2011-12-16 17:17:30 <TD> i want the TransactionConfidence API to provide an estimated count of [tera/peta]hashes of work done per tx
 692 2011-12-16 17:17:40 * BlueMatt considers giving up on the satoshi client and moving to bitcoinj more and more every day...
 693 2011-12-16 17:17:44 <TD> heh. nooooo.
 694 2011-12-16 17:17:51 <TD> bitcoinj is still very, very rough and incomplete
 695 2011-12-16 17:18:03 <BlueMatt> hey, the satoshi client feels that way often too...
 696 2011-12-16 17:18:08 <devrandom> BlueMatt: it's a thin client
 697 2011-12-16 17:18:10 <TD> satoshi client will be the canonical codebase for a long time ... but i'm hoping most of the interesting ecosystem apps get written against bitcoinj :)
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 699 2011-12-16 17:18:30 <TD> devrandom: the main thing that's missing is how to expose changes in tx confidence to the api user
 700 2011-12-16 17:18:35 <BlueMatt> devrandom: I know, but some of the cool stuff thats being done on bitcoinj...
 701 2011-12-16 17:18:42 <luke-jr> TD: can I build it to a normal library yet? :P
 702 2011-12-16 17:18:45 <TD> devrandom: i'm thinking some kind of alarm api, or event listeners on the TransactionConfidence
 703 2011-12-16 17:18:49 <TD> luke-jr: well, it builds to a normal java library ;)
 704 2011-12-16 17:18:54 <luke-jr> TD: so no?
 705 2011-12-16 17:19:00 <TD> if you want to -lbitcoinj then no. i guess something could be done with gcj
 706 2011-12-16 17:19:13 <TD> and the gnu proprietary c++/java binding system they had. cni?
 707 2011-12-16 17:19:14 <TD> i forgot
 708 2011-12-16 17:19:25 <BlueMatt> can gcj compile libraries?
 709 2011-12-16 17:19:30 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: ofc
 710 2011-12-16 17:19:38 <TD> i guess genjixs lib will be the thing for c++ devs for the forseeable future, or refactorings of satoshis code (preferable imho)
 711 2011-12-16 17:19:42 <luke-jr> Java just has its own not-invented-here build systems
 712 2011-12-16 17:19:47 <luke-jr> so nothing works normally
 713 2011-12-16 17:19:47 <devrandom> TD: ok, will look in a bit
 714 2011-12-16 17:19:51 <TD> devrandom: thanks
 715 2011-12-16 17:19:54 <TD> i'll post to the list as well
 716 2011-12-16 17:19:59 <TD> devrandom: advice on how to expose confidence changes, appreciated
 717 2011-12-16 17:20:34 <luke-jr> TD: 32-bit int
 718 2011-12-16 17:20:37 <luke-jr> :p
 719 2011-12-16 17:20:49 <luke-jr> ofc, since it's Java, there's probably no point in writing efficient code…
 720 2011-12-16 17:21:16 <TD> luke-jr: god, i'd love unsigned types in java
 721 2011-12-16 17:21:27 <TD> and yeah, efficiency is not javas strong point. i actually work with c++ in my day job
 722 2011-12-16 17:21:36 <luke-jr> TD: actually, you'd want this to be signed :P
 723 2011-12-16 17:21:40 <luke-jr> …
 724 2011-12-16 17:21:46 <luke-jr> why the heck did you use Java then? :/
 725 2011-12-16 17:21:50 <TD> the only times i use java are this project and when i patch the gmail frontend :)
 726 2011-12-16 17:22:14 <gavinandresen> sipa: Question for the VersionMeister:  before starting to pull 0.6 stuff, I'll bump the version number to... 0.5.99 ?
 727 2011-12-16 17:22:15 <TD> because [a] i originally set out to build an android client, it turned into a general purpose lib later and [b] lots of people know java and find it easier to work with than c++
 728 2011-12-16 17:22:28 <luke-jr> anyhow, confidence should probably be negative for transactions that get more and more UNlikely
 729 2011-12-16 17:22:36 <sipa> gavinandresen: ACK :)
 730 2011-12-16 17:22:37 <TD> so if you want to make bitcoin easier to work with and accessible to more people, java's a pretty good choice
 731 2011-12-16 17:22:44 <BlueMatt> if schools stopped teaching so much in java, maybe it could fade away a bit...
 732 2011-12-16 17:22:49 <TD> luke-jr: currently i'm not exposing any kind of canonical confidence score
 733 2011-12-16 17:22:54 da2ce7 has joined
 734 2011-12-16 17:23:05 <TD> luke-jr: that might come later. for now you get number of unique peers that announced the tx, and depth in best chain
 735 2011-12-16 17:23:06 <devrandom> TD: will think about API
 736 2011-12-16 17:23:10 sacarlson has joined
 737 2011-12-16 17:23:23 <TD> i want to give depth measured as total work done rather than blocks too, so you can specify confidence thresholds independent of speed
 738 2011-12-16 17:23:26 <TD> devrandom: thanks
 739 2011-12-16 17:23:27 <luke-jr> TD: ah, I assumed you meant a statistical probability
 740 2011-12-16 17:23:47 <sipa> are there non-statistical probabilities? :)
 741 2011-12-16 17:23:49 <TD> no. i guess that depends on things that are "unknowable" like the determination of your attckers
 742 2011-12-16 17:24:06 <TD> i'd like to provide some pre-canned rule sets so people don't have to know the details of all the different kinds of attacks you can do on bitcoin
 743 2011-12-16 17:24:07 <luke-jr> sipa: as he just said, confirmation and peers announcing it :P
 744 2011-12-16 17:24:27 <devrandom> I'm thinking confidence levels should be a probability measure... e.g. given an attacker with resources equal to X, what is the probability that they would be able to get a conflicting tx accepted?
 745 2011-12-16 17:24:29 <TD> like, "here's rules to use if you write a wallet for personal use", "here's rules for running a merchant", "here's rules if you sell houses" etc
 746 2011-12-16 17:24:31 <sipa> luke-jr: sorry, wasn't really following, it sounded a bit like a paradox
 747 2011-12-16 17:24:40 <TD> devrandom: i thought about that. like a dollar value of attacker spend
 748 2011-12-16 17:24:44 <devrandom> it would get closer and closer to 1
 749 2011-12-16 17:24:56 <TD> devrandom: problem is that depends on the some magic numbers like the dollar value of bitcoin and cost of mining hardware
 750 2011-12-16 17:24:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: i've learned Java in university, and C/C++ by myself... i feel less and less inclined to do personal coding in Java :)
 751 2011-12-16 17:25:09 <luke-jr> devrandom: or -1, if it's a conflict ;)
 752 2011-12-16 17:25:11 <devrandom> dollar amount sounds even better actually
 753 2011-12-16 17:25:22 <TD> there's no API to fetch exchange rates today
 754 2011-12-16 17:25:23 <BlueMatt> sipa: same here, and thats my point, so many classes teach in java
 755 2011-12-16 17:25:24 <TD> i'd like to add one
 756 2011-12-16 17:25:28 <BlueMatt> sipa: so its become fairly popular
 757 2011-12-16 17:25:31 <devrandom> luke-jr: a probability close to zero if there's a conflict
 758 2011-12-16 17:25:39 <sipa> BlueMatt: Java is a lot better than C++ in many aspects, but i just so much hate its verbosity :)
 759 2011-12-16 17:25:40 <luke-jr> TD: that requires some standard for exchanges
 760 2011-12-16 17:25:44 <TD> then it could be used to build something that looks at the value of the transaction vs the cost of mining and tries to guess
 761 2011-12-16 17:25:47 <TD> but that's way advanced
 762 2011-12-16 17:25:50 <TD> luke-jr: yeah. or a pile of hacks :)
 763 2011-12-16 17:26:07 <TD> there are much more important things to fix in bitcoinj than building the perfect tx confidence api
 764 2011-12-16 17:26:11 <devrandom> actually, measuring it in terahashes sounds pretty good
 765 2011-12-16 17:26:11 <luke-jr> heh
 766 2011-12-16 17:26:18 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, its easier to learn because of its verbosity though...
 767 2011-12-16 17:26:24 <TD> devrandom: for advanced users it's the closest you're going to get to something "real" i guess
 768 2011-12-16 17:26:33 <TD> devrandom: unless that company comes out with their mining ASICs
 769 2011-12-16 17:26:34 <TD> i forgot the name
 770 2011-12-16 17:26:38 <TD> butterfly labs?
 771 2011-12-16 17:26:43 <luke-jr> TD: I've used one.
 772 2011-12-16 17:26:44 <gavinandresen> I still like the idea of exchanges spending from "well-known" addresses to embed the exchange rate in the block chain once per hour...
 773 2011-12-16 17:26:52 <BlueMatt> I think [Tycho] is also doing mining hardware
 774 2011-12-16 17:26:54 <devrandom> we can have a configured factor to translate TH to $
 775 2011-12-16 17:27:02 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ...why?
 776 2011-12-16 17:27:07 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: too easily abused, and bloats the block chain
 777 2011-12-16 17:27:18 <sipa> i'm not sure about the use, gavinandresen
 778 2011-12-16 17:27:21 <TD> if it's going to be a pure p2p solution i'd rather explore the pubsub protocol
 779 2011-12-16 17:27:26 <luke-jr> I think someone had suggested a p2p exchange once…
 780 2011-12-16 17:27:28 <TD> so you could join the p2p network and subscribe to exchange prices
 781 2011-12-16 17:28:01 <TD> longer term i'd like to see exchanges issue their own 1:1 fiat:crypto currencies
 782 2011-12-16 17:28:03 <[Tycho]> Yes.
 783 2011-12-16 17:28:04 <gavinandresen> RE: bloating the chain:  that chicken has already left the roost.  That horse is out of the barn.  That eagle has already landed....
 784 2011-12-16 17:28:07 <TD> so there'd be MtGoxUSDCoin
 785 2011-12-16 17:28:20 <TD> then you could potentially do chain trades in a p2p fashion and automatically negotiate prices, etc
 786 2011-12-16 17:28:34 <helo> don't forget about the goose's egg
 787 2011-12-16 17:28:34 <TD> gavinandresen: there's a big difference between theoretically possible and outright encouraged
 788 2011-12-16 17:28:49 <TD> one thing i'd like to explore with bitcoinj in 2012 is making alt chains way easier to build
 789 2011-12-16 17:28:51 <gavinandresen> RE: why:  because it'd be a cool, secure, decentralized way of doing it.
 790 2011-12-16 17:28:53 <BlueMatt> I'd simply like to see someone with a ton of money declare they are fixing the bitcoin rates to USD or some international currency value indicator
 791 2011-12-16 17:29:22 <TD> you should just be able to subclass some core classes and put together your own P2P network that uses the bitcoin protocols, with your own definition of a Transaction, and then be able to do merged mining out of the box
 792 2011-12-16 17:29:34 <TD> running a very strongly hashed alt chain should be something a student can do in one evening
 793 2011-12-16 17:29:47 <TD> then there'd be much less incentive to put non-tx data into the prod blockchain
 794 2011-12-16 17:29:50 <devrandom> how do you mine with bitcoinj?  I thought you need a full node
 795 2011-12-16 17:30:06 <TD> devrandom: you can't mine bitcoin transactions. but for alternative chains, you'd define your own notion of validity
 796 2011-12-16 17:30:23 <sipa> right, it has to be a full node for the alt chain, not for the bitcoin chain
 797 2011-12-16 17:30:31 <TD> devrandom: eg for handling exchange rate announcements you'd come up with a "tx" message that just includes the name of the exchange, a signature, and some prices, or something
 798 2011-12-16 17:30:39 <TD> devrandom: so validation is easy
 799 2011-12-16 17:30:42 <helo> could there be some self-interested motivation for the exchanges to lie about the exchange rate in the blockchain?
 800 2011-12-16 17:30:48 <TD> though given the transient nature of exchange rates, i'm not sure recording them forever is the right design either :-)
 801 2011-12-16 17:31:02 <devrandom> I see
 802 2011-12-16 17:31:28 <TD> helo: i think the end goal should be that if you deposit $100 in Mt. Gox, after doing all the AML checks they issue you with 100 MtGoxCoins
 803 2011-12-16 17:31:33 <TD> which run on a separate chain
 804 2011-12-16 17:31:45 <TD> merged mined. mtgox gives a little bit of money as incentives.
 805 2011-12-16 17:31:55 <TD> at that point you can use luxgladiuses chain trade script to do btc:usd trades atomically and without trust
 806 2011-12-16 17:31:59 <luke-jr> why use a chain?
 807 2011-12-16 17:32:08 <TD> when there's no trust needed, you can have a broadcast network of open trades
 808 2011-12-16 17:32:23 <TD> so you could just broadcast "i have 5 MtGoxCoins and am willing to sell them for 7.6 BTC"
 809 2011-12-16 17:32:34 <TD> users then run the software which connects to the p2p network and listens for announced trades
 810 2011-12-16 17:32:45 <TD> when it finds one that matches its rules for acceptable prices, it does a chain trade and the coins atomically change hands
 811 2011-12-16 17:33:11 <TD> in this way the trading itself becomes decentralized. Mt Gox performs AML duties, bank wires, and creates/destroys MtGoxCoins on the alt chain
 812 2011-12-16 17:33:59 <TD> rather than having coins be created via inflation, each block would be allowed to claim only fees. special keys hard-coded into the clients would be recognized as coin creation keys. when it's time for a MtGoxCoin to turn back into USD via  bank wire, the coins are destroyed with an OP_FALSE script
 813 2011-12-16 17:34:02 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r8896c2d / (5 files in 4 dirs): Bump version 0.5.99 (prep for pulling for version 0.6) - http://git.io/jLgNlQ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/8896c2d9d64d71e25b31d7a389f0b8db49a1e50a
 814 2011-12-16 17:34:31 <lianj> how does bank wire and decentralisation match?
 815 2011-12-16 17:34:35 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: are you going to cname a ton of eligius relay nodes to your dnsseed?
 816 2011-12-16 17:34:37 <TD> i suppose to simplify things a bunch of exchanges could agree to share a single chain. the exchanges would incentivize shared mining by giving away coins valid on their own exchanges
 817 2011-12-16 17:34:46 <gmaxwell> though ignoring the enormous trust needed to redeem MtGoxCoins, and the potentially weird regulatory complexities of creating bearer tokens fixed to the USD.
 818 2011-12-16 17:34:56 <TD> lianj: bank wire into exchange -> MtGoxCoins created. MtGoxCoins destroyed -> bank wire out of exchange.
 819 2011-12-16 17:35:19 <TD> gmaxwell: yes. at least in the EU that'd probably make you an issuer of the dreaded "e-currency" :) so you'd need a big deposit
 820 2011-12-16 17:35:24 <TD> i think it's a million euros or something ridiculous like that
 821 2011-12-16 17:35:47 <TD> gmaxwell: and yes you have to trust that MtGox backs their coins 1:1 with actual deposits. however beyond that you don't need to rely on them at all
 822 2011-12-16 17:36:01 <TD> you can use your own security mechanisms, guard your mtgoxcoin keys however you like, etc
 823 2011-12-16 17:36:27 <TD> such an exchange currency would be a strong competitor to bitcoin itself, i guess, as you'd be swapping unknown large volatility for the relatively low and known volatility of big fiats
 824 2011-12-16 17:36:54 <TD> assuming the euro doesn't tank and take the dollar with it of course. then bitcoin might start looking rather stable in comparison ....
 825 2011-12-16 17:37:51 <devrandom> maybe tie it to the SDR
 826 2011-12-16 17:38:10 <helo> would it not be illegal for mtgox to create digital equivalents to USD?
 827 2011-12-16 17:38:23 <helo> saying "this is a mtgox coin, it's the same as a dollar"
 828 2011-12-16 17:38:39 <TD> i don't think there's anything wrong with creating tokens backed 1:1 by an existing currency
 829 2011-12-16 17:38:50 <TD> at least in the EU not only is it legal, there is a whole regulatory framework around it. i'd be surprised if it's illegal in the USA
 830 2011-12-16 17:38:59 <helo> i thought it was the same as printing a fake dollar bill and saying "this is a dollar"
 831 2011-12-16 17:39:06 <TD> assuming you follow all the regulations (which is very hard because there are so many and they are so vague)
 832 2011-12-16 17:39:20 <TD> no. why would it be the same?
 833 2011-12-16 17:39:35 <TD> if i fake the currency itself, that's way different than swapping you 1:1 with something i promise is equivalent
 834 2011-12-16 17:39:43 <helo> because you're creating something yourself and saying "this is a dollar"
 835 2011-12-16 17:39:57 <helo> hmm, maybe
 836 2011-12-16 17:40:04 <TD> think about store gift cards and things
 837 2011-12-16 17:40:06 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea, ok same problem as before, different qt/boost binary inputs and different bitcoin-qt binaries...
 838 2011-12-16 17:40:06 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 839 2011-12-16 17:40:18 <BlueMatt> devrandom: have you recently built the qt-win32 gitian zips?
 840 2011-12-16 17:40:40 <devrandom> BlueMatt: not recently
 841 2011-12-16 17:40:51 <devrandom> well, let me check
 842 2011-12-16 17:40:55 <BlueMatt> do you happen to have hashes for ones you built any time?
 843 2011-12-16 17:41:12 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: let me know if/how I can help...
 844 2011-12-16 17:42:09 <devrandom> BlueMatt: I have one from Nov 21 - e5af9ca68aa98e8edd1e1b1bb96bbd0800f1a929270823f1bccf729aada157e4
 845 2011-12-16 17:42:13 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Im rebuilding my qt-win32 and boost-win32 gitian zips, if you could do the same and see if you get the same hashes
 846 2011-12-16 17:42:23 <BlueMatt> devrandom: 4.7.4?
 847 2011-12-16 17:42:36 <devrandom> I think 5.0
 848 2011-12-16 17:42:38 <devrandom> oh
 849 2011-12-16 17:43:24 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 850 2011-12-16 17:43:25 <devrandom>     321247297648eebd4f1d0195addf51eeb9f1dcf538a78bf3c67d11dadbc40faf  qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.4.tar.gz
 851 2011-12-16 17:43:45 <BlueMatt> devrandom: oh, no the qt-win32-4.7.4-gitian.zip file
 852 2011-12-16 17:43:49 <BlueMatt> not the original source
 853 2011-12-16 17:43:51 <phantomcircuit> TD[gone], depends on where you are and what kind of volume you're doing
 854 2011-12-16 17:44:02 <BlueMatt> brb, have to walk back upstairs...
 855 2011-12-16 17:44:06 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 856 2011-12-16 17:45:05 <gavinandresen> devrandom: what checksum is that?  sha256?
 857 2011-12-16 17:45:28 <devrandom> yes
 858 2011-12-16 17:45:34 <gavinandresen> hmm, mine is:
 859 2011-12-16 17:45:39 <gavinandresen> 97195ebce8a46f9929fb971d9ae58326d011c4d54425389e6e936514f540221e  qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.4.tar.gz
 860 2011-12-16 17:47:11 BlueMatt has joined
 861 2011-12-16 17:47:15 <devrandom> uh oh
 862 2011-12-16 17:47:19 iocor has joined
 863 2011-12-16 17:47:40 <BlueMatt> ?
 864 2011-12-16 17:47:45 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: checksum on my qt-everwhere-.tar.gz is different from devrandom's... I'm re-fetching to see if it changes again
 865 2011-12-16 17:47:56 <devrandom> gavinandresen: I'll upload mine somewhere and we can compare?
 866 2011-12-16 17:48:02 <BlueMatt> oh, well thats weird, that should never be different...
 867 2011-12-16 17:48:17 <gavinandresen> ... unless qt snuck in a minor release but didnt' change the filename or something
 868 2011-12-16 17:48:20 <devrandom> ack, it's 210MB
 869 2011-12-16 17:48:32 <gavinandresen> yes, it is big....
 870 2011-12-16 17:48:46 <devrandom> I'll wait for you to refetch instead
 871 2011-12-16 17:48:59 <BlueMatt> my ssha256 is 97195ebce8a46f9929fb971d9ae58326d011c4d54425389e6e936514f540221e
 872 2011-12-16 17:49:34 <BlueMatt> and my qt-win32-4.7.4-gitian.zip is 606f0ea210dff45b31fa2712dff09ccdcf0b5791ca60f8d9521edc69ec67645f
 873 2011-12-16 17:50:24 AStove has quit ()
 874 2011-12-16 17:51:02 <gavinandresen> c29e6d4e73cbfeedabe4abf79aae26964b38d0fa942904fd79ded1a6445254b7  qt-win32-4.7.4-gitian.zip
 875 2011-12-16 17:51:14 <gavinandresen> 97195ebce8a46f9929fb971d9ae58326d011c4d54425389e6e936514f540221e  qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.4.tar.gz
 876 2011-12-16 17:51:14 <phantomcircuit> is it just me or is all the stuff about name aliases silly
 877 2011-12-16 17:51:19 <phantomcircuit> you can just implement all of them
 878 2011-12-16 17:51:23 <phantomcircuit> they're all fairly simple
 879 2011-12-16 17:51:27 <phantomcircuit> let the best man win
 880 2011-12-16 17:51:35 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: +1
 881 2011-12-16 17:51:40 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that is the worst way to do it...
 882 2011-12-16 17:51:46 <phantomcircuit> lold
 883 2011-12-16 17:51:50 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 884 2011-12-16 17:51:53 <phantomcircuit> CONTRADICT ALL THE THINGS
 885 2011-12-16 17:52:03 <BlueMatt> the dns one cannot be implemented securely on some isps
 886 2011-12-16 17:52:10 <devrandom> gavinandresen: BlueMatt so I'm the odd man out
 887 2011-12-16 17:52:22 <phantomcircuit> the dns one cannot by implemented securely on most isps
 888 2011-12-16 17:52:26 <BlueMatt> well gavinandresen has different results on the final build, which is really the pobrlem
 889 2011-12-16 17:52:32 kish has joined
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 891 2011-12-16 17:52:42 <devrandom> BlueMatt: was it deterministic for you?
 892 2011-12-16 17:52:53 <BlueMatt> IIRC yes, though I have to check now...
 893 2011-12-16 17:52:55 <gavinandresen> Yes, same input, different output... I'll let the re-download finish, then rebuild and see if I get the same .gitian.zip
 894 2011-12-16 17:52:58 <devrandom> BlueMatt: and do you match me?
 895 2011-12-16 17:53:07 <BlueMatt> on the -win32-zip?
 896 2011-12-16 17:53:15 <phantomcircuit> i think the email version is best but really the value there is being able to send the bitcoins to someones email who doesn't yet have the client
 897 2011-12-16 17:53:30 <phantomcircuit> which is obviously fairly complicated and probably requires trusting someone
 898 2011-12-16 17:53:36 <devrandom> BlueMatt: yes
 899 2011-12-16 17:53:48 <BlueMatt> devrandom: whats yous sha on the -win32.zip
 900 2011-12-16 17:54:08 <BlueMatt> I thought I matched someone, whether it was wumpus or whoever when the qt gitian stuff was being written
 901 2011-12-16 17:55:10 <gavinandresen> I thought Walter Stanish made some very good points, that I expect nobody read because he uses too many words to make his points.
 902 2011-12-16 17:55:24 <wumpus> yes, we had a matching hash once
 903 2011-12-16 17:55:29 <devrandom> BlueMatt: I have one from Nov 21 - e5af9ca68aa98e8edd1e1b1bb96bbd0800f1a929270823f1bccf729aada157e4
 904 2011-12-16 17:56:15 <BlueMatt> devrandom: no, you have a different original source and different build results form me
 905 2011-12-16 17:56:24 <wumpus> it looked like it was deterministic back then, I built it 10 times and hash was the same every time
 906 2011-12-16 17:56:26 <luke-jr> 321247297648eebd4f1d0195addf51eeb9f1dcf538a78bf3c67d11dadbc40faf  /usr/portage/distfiles/qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.4.tar.gz
 907 2011-12-16 17:56:26 tower has joined
 908 2011-12-16 17:56:27 <BlueMatt> wumpus: do you happen to still have the hash of the -win32.zip file lying around?
 909 2011-12-16 17:56:29 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i stopped reading when the thread got so deep thunderbird was cutting off names entirely
 910 2011-12-16 17:56:31 <luke-jr> ^ canonical Gentoo SHA256sum
 911 2011-12-16 17:56:34 <phantomcircuit> :|
 912 2011-12-16 17:57:08 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: Walter Stanish is the "Use IIBAN numbers" proponent.  Which I think is a great idea, except that IIBAN is Yet Another Fledgling Standard
 913 2011-12-16 17:57:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ok, wtf...
 914 2011-12-16 17:57:33 <luke-jr> http://get.qt.nokia.com/qt/source/qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.2.tar.gz <-- Gentoo origin
 915 2011-12-16 17:57:45 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: no, 4.7.4
 916 2011-12-16 17:57:51 <luke-jr> oh right
 917 2011-12-16 17:58:02 * luke-jr wonders why emerge just gave him a 4.7.2 link
 918 2011-12-16 17:58:08 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, yeah i saw iiban, seems like a good idea but not well supported
 919 2011-12-16 17:58:20 <wumpus> 97195ebce8a46f9929fb971d9ae58326d011c4d54425389e6e936514f540221e  inputs/qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.4.tar.gz
 920 2011-12-16 17:58:20 <wumpus> 7996f302a7ea07a7c3728c857ca0ed783dd96fc49898cf149432787b93016ce6  inputs/qt-win32-4.7.4-gitian.zip
 921 2011-12-16 17:58:45 <luke-jr> http://get.qt.nokia.com/qt/source/qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.4.tar.gz
 922 2011-12-16 17:58:56 <gavinandresen> So same inputs for Matt/Me/wumpus, 3 different outputs....
 923 2011-12-16 17:59:23 <wumpus> at a certain point there was an issue that the date was embedded somewhere, so every day it had a new hash
 924 2011-12-16 17:59:34 <luke-jr> >_<
 925 2011-12-16 17:59:42 <wumpus> I fixed that though
 926 2011-12-16 17:59:45 <luke-jr> probably the gzip mtime
 927 2011-12-16 17:59:54 <BlueMatt> odd, and I thought it was deterministic...
 928 2011-12-16 17:59:56 <wumpus> nope it was something in the bowels of qt itself
 929 2011-12-16 18:00:00 <luke-jr> oh
 930 2011-12-16 18:00:17 <wumpus> some build id... the problem is that you can't enable the faketime for the entire duration of the build
 931 2011-12-16 18:00:19 * luke-jr wonders why gitian's VM doesn't just always have a fixed date
 932 2011-12-16 18:00:29 <wumpus> qt's build system gets confused and keeps rebuilding the same targets. sometimes.
 933 2011-12-16 18:00:42 <wumpus> it does luke-jr, that's what faketime is for
 934 2011-12-16 18:00:57 <luke-jr> wumpus: so have every call to time() return LastTime + 1
 935 2011-12-16 18:01:16 bobke has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 936 2011-12-16 18:01:16 <wumpus> which works for the bitcoin build, but it doesn't work for qt
 937 2011-12-16 18:01:45 <wumpus> yes that'd be an idea, as long as there is no parallelism it should work
 938 2011-12-16 18:01:51 <devrandom> luke-jr: we use libfaketime... I don't know if a VM's clock can be easily stopped
 939 2011-12-16 18:02:06 <devrandom> oh wumpus already said
 940 2011-12-16 18:02:07 <gavinandresen> I'm rebuilding, if it is reproducible on my machine then we'll know it is not a time thing...
 941 2011-12-16 18:02:28 sneak has joined
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 944 2011-12-16 18:02:29 <luke-jr> wumpus: perhaps there's a safe way to parallelize it
 945 2011-12-16 18:02:32 <wumpus> yeah I think I solved the time thing.. but there might be another one
 946 2011-12-16 18:02:44 <gavinandresen> (I vaguely recall rebuilding before and getting the same result, but maybe that was all builds-done-in-a-single-day...)
 947 2011-12-16 18:02:50 <devrandom> ok, I got the 9719 qt sources
 948 2011-12-16 18:04:24 <luke-jr> aha, my qt 4.7.4 source isn't complete :p
 949 2011-12-16 18:04:40 <BlueMatt> yea, I just rebuilt gitian 4.7.4 and got a different hash...let me go look at the file diff
 950 2011-12-16 18:05:59 <devrandom> FWIW, my old package had a bunch of doc diffs, and also:
 951 2011-12-16 18:06:03 <devrandom> -#define QT_PACKAGEDATE_STR "2011-09-12"
 952 2011-12-16 18:06:03 <devrandom> +#define QT_PACKAGEDATE_STR "2011-08-23"
 953 2011-12-16 18:06:08 jacobwg has joined
 954 2011-12-16 18:06:12 <BlueMatt> wumpus: mmm, Im getting the same old crap that I got in the bitcoin builds where CONFIG flags in files are changing order...
 955 2011-12-16 18:07:29 <devrandom> BlueMatt: is that affecting final output?
 956 2011-12-16 18:08:04 <BlueMatt> devrandom: those files (eg plugins/codecs/qcncodecs.prl:4 are in the final output
 957 2011-12-16 18:08:20 <wumpus> this is the fix I made back then: sed 's/$TODAY/2011-01-30/' -i configure
 958 2011-12-16 18:08:23 <BlueMatt> quite a few of the .prl's have eg QMAKE_PRL_CONFIG with different orders
 959 2011-12-16 18:08:24 <devrandom> sigh
 960 2011-12-16 18:08:28 bobke has joined
 961 2011-12-16 18:08:39 <luke-jr> are you guys using -j1?
 962 2011-12-16 18:08:54 <wumpus> but I don't think it was QT_PACKAGEDATE_STR
 963 2011-12-16 18:09:02 <wumpus> so that might be another one :/
 964 2011-12-16 18:09:11 <luke-jr> actually, why aren't you just using Ubuntu's qt packages?
 965 2011-12-16 18:09:20 <wumpus> windows
 966 2011-12-16 18:09:25 <luke-jr> oh right
 967 2011-12-16 18:10:12 <luke-jr> in that case, why not just use Nokia's Win32 binaries? ;)
 968 2011-12-16 18:10:23 <wumpus> they don't support static linking
 969 2011-12-16 18:10:27 <wumpus> at least not well
 970 2011-12-16 18:10:36 <luke-jr> shouldn't be static linking in the first place
 971 2011-12-16 18:10:50 <wumpus> on windows it's preferable to do so
 972 2011-12-16 18:10:54 <luke-jr> no, it isn't.
 973 2011-12-16 18:11:05 <wumpus> it means you have one portable exe
 974 2011-12-16 18:11:08 <wumpus> instead of a zillion dlls
 975 2011-12-16 18:11:12 <luke-jr> which is irrelevant
 976 2011-12-16 18:11:18 <gavinandresen> ... somebody would have to volunteer to modify the setup.nsi to install the dlls...
 977 2011-12-16 18:11:24 <luke-jr> wallet.dat isn't portable anyway
 978 2011-12-16 18:11:34 <luke-jr> (rather, it's not "one portable exe")
 979 2011-12-16 18:11:34 <sipa> it's not?
 980 2011-12-16 18:11:41 <luke-jr> sipa: it's a separate file
 981 2011-12-16 18:11:43 <wumpus> it is portable, you can use bitcoin on an usb stick
 982 2011-12-16 18:11:44 <sipa> yeah sure
 983 2011-12-16 18:11:51 <luke-jr> wumpus: you can do that with DLLs too
 984 2011-12-16 18:11:51 <wumpus> no need to install dlls all over the system
 985 2011-12-16 18:12:01 <luke-jr> DLLs can be installed in the same directory as the EXE
 986 2011-12-16 18:12:03 <wumpus> oh, sure...
 987 2011-12-16 18:12:19 <sipa> luke-jr: then what's the advantage?
 988 2011-12-16 18:12:21 <wumpus> but then you can just as well staticlaly link
 989 2011-12-16 18:12:26 <wumpus> they are not *shared*
 990 2011-12-16 18:12:35 <luke-jr> sipa: advanced users *can* delete them to use a system Qt
 991 2011-12-16 18:12:45 <wumpus> advanced users can compile it themselves
 992 2011-12-16 18:12:52 <luke-jr> wumpus: they *might* be shared if Windows implements some kind of deduplication
 993 2011-12-16 18:12:58 <wumpus> I don't think we have to care much about those on windows
 994 2011-12-16 18:13:05 <luke-jr> wumpus: no, we don't support compiling for Windows :P
 995 2011-12-16 18:13:10 <luke-jr> on*
 996 2011-12-16 18:13:16 <wumpus> you can compile it fine in qt creator in windows
 997 2011-12-16 18:13:20 <wumpus> that's what I did in the beginning
 998 2011-12-16 18:13:54 <wumpus> the only reason for using gitian is because it is safer and (should be) deterministic
 999 2011-12-16 18:15:32 <luke-jr> anyhow, using DLLs is easier
1000 2011-12-16 18:15:50 <luke-jr> you don't have to build Qt yourself, and it enables some advanced uses for users
1001 2011-12-16 18:16:01 <luke-jr> at no expense
1002 2011-12-16 18:16:02 <wumpus> anyway, that moves the trust to trolltech compiling the dlls, I think the everything-from-source approach is best
1003 2011-12-16 18:16:11 <luke-jr> you already trust Ubuntu
1004 2011-12-16 18:16:28 <wumpus> yeah...
1005 2011-12-16 18:16:34 <luke-jr> and Microsoft
1006 2011-12-16 18:16:38 <sipa> and Intel
1007 2011-12-16 18:16:38 <devrandom> luke-jr: for now
1008 2011-12-16 18:16:57 <BlueMatt> ...ominous
1009 2011-12-16 18:17:04 <sipa> who knows what that microcode on my CPU is doing
1010 2011-12-16 18:17:16 <gavinandresen> For what it is worth.. the Mac release ships with the qt binaries (not statically linked-- all the other depencies ARE statically linked, though)
1011 2011-12-16 18:17:26 <luke-jr> sipa: it's got a builtin cellular modem to upload your private data to Intel
1012 2011-12-16 18:17:36 <wumpus> yeah yeah the question is not whether your paranoid, but whether you're paranoid enough...
1013 2011-12-16 18:17:53 <sipa> luke-jr: cool
1014 2011-12-16 18:18:22 <luke-jr> sipa: also, there's a government faction planning to take down a plane in the middle of NYC, to justify a war
1015 2011-12-16 18:18:32 <luke-jr> oh wait, that one actually ended up happening…
1016 2011-12-16 18:18:50 <gavinandresen> lets not go there, please
1017 2011-12-16 18:18:55 <wumpus> but that's a good point, it's not good that CPU companies are so centralized
1018 2011-12-16 18:18:59 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: TV quotes are fun
1019 2011-12-16 18:19:08 <wumpus> then again, I guess that's outside the scope of bitcoin
1020 2011-12-16 18:19:10 <gavinandresen> How about productive paranoia discussion:  next steps for multi-device authentication?
1021 2011-12-16 18:19:31 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: Yubikey at least is useless for this
1022 2011-12-16 18:20:11 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: sure, you need a device that can show you the transaction being proposed, an OK button to confirm it, and the ability for it to generate an ECDSA signature.
1023 2011-12-16 18:20:24 <luke-jr> well, that's not multi-device auth, that's a hardware wallet :P
1024 2011-12-16 18:20:38 <gavinandresen> The device could be your cell phone....
1025 2011-12-16 18:20:40 <wumpus> that could be one of the devices
1026 2011-12-16 18:20:44 <luke-jr> step 1 for that is splitting up the wallet code from the GUI, by designing a Wallet Protocol
1027 2011-12-16 18:20:50 <gavinandresen> ... or a web page that a trojan is unlikely to know about....
1028 2011-12-16 18:20:57 <wumpus> or just use bitcoinj
1029 2011-12-16 18:20:58 <wumpus> :P
1030 2011-12-16 18:21:28 <luke-jr> then the GUI could talk to a CPU wallet (bitcoind), or an external device
1031 2011-12-16 18:21:32 <BlueMatt> wumpus, sipa, gavinandresen, devrandom: do you have sha256 hashes of boost-win32-1.47.0-gitian.zip
1032 2011-12-16 18:21:50 <gavinandresen> 6e3eb548b9d955c0bc6f71c51042b713b678136a  boost_1_47_0.tar.bz2
1033 2011-12-16 18:21:50 <gavinandresen> 086bc66af7bfa63c2a25919a84e6e602f06b92a1  boost-win32-1.47.0-gitian.zip
1034 2011-12-16 18:21:59 <gavinandresen> oops, those are sha1
1035 2011-12-16 18:22:05 <wumpus> 815a5d9faac4dbd523fbcf3fe1065e443c0bbf43427c44aa423422c6ec4c2e31  inputs/boost_1_47_0.tar.bz2
1036 2011-12-16 18:22:05 <wumpus> a7ce7b253c4d42a3cf50ee3b352961e75bceba0bee6923df1704c93fa0aaddee  inputs/boost-win32-1.47.0-gitian.zip
1037 2011-12-16 18:22:06 <gavinandresen> 815a5d9faac4dbd523fbcf3fe1065e443c0bbf43427c44aa423422c6ec4c2e31  boost_1_47_0.tar.bz2
1038 2011-12-16 18:22:06 <gavinandresen> c527428c8a7d8b6afb3214bbde831a1704a6893a0b05f08c1050f9e96e493a2d  boost-win32-1.47.0-gitian.zip
1039 2011-12-16 18:22:11 <luke-jr> lol
1040 2011-12-16 18:22:22 <BlueMatt> 774e7cf13e668be948700b4f37b007439afa6e3d7d8cf810fc52cb9c6f9d11cf  inputs/boost-win32-1.47.0-gitian.zip
1041 2011-12-16 18:22:29 <wumpus> lol:/
1042 2011-12-16 18:22:31 <BlueMatt> yay, boost isnt deterministic either...
1043 2011-12-16 18:22:46 <luke-jr> why not leave gitian a separate project and let them deal with that? >.>
1044 2011-12-16 18:23:08 <wumpus> eh which 'them'?
1045 2011-12-16 18:23:17 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1046 2011-12-16 18:23:17 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: them is devrandom...
1047 2011-12-16 18:23:32 <gavinandresen> ... and gitian is a separate project.
1048 2011-12-16 18:23:53 <luke-jr> :D
1049 2011-12-16 18:24:12 <BlueMatt> anyway, gavin can you upload the -win32.zip gitian files for boost and qt that you used somewhere so we can atleast duplicate the bitcoin zip
1050 2011-12-16 18:24:12 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: yeah, I mean just not hold up Bitcoin-Qt releases for gitian issues
1051 2011-12-16 18:24:15 <wumpus> the problem also isn't in gitian itself
1052 2011-12-16 18:24:40 <luke-jr> wumpus: I disagree. Software build systems shouldn't need to focus on being deterministic.
1053 2011-12-16 18:24:49 <luke-jr> deterministic should be a result of the build environment
1054 2011-12-16 18:24:56 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: sure...
1055 2011-12-16 18:25:17 <wumpus> yes, in theory.... but meanwhile in the actual world, it's all interlinked messily
1056 2011-12-16 18:25:30 <devrandom> luke-jr: gavinandresen: I believe that creating trusted binaries is a goal for the bitcoin project
1057 2011-12-16 18:25:34 <devrandom> right?
1058 2011-12-16 18:25:41 <gavinandresen> devrandom: yes, absolutely
1059 2011-12-16 18:25:58 <luke-jr> devrandom: ideally, but not nearly as important as having multiple clients IMO
1060 2011-12-16 18:25:59 <gavinandresen> ... but it isn't the only or the primary goal
1061 2011-12-16 18:26:26 <devrandom> gavinandresen: understood
1062 2011-12-16 18:26:36 <luke-jr> it's not like we're talkign about 1.0 yet
1063 2011-12-16 18:26:48 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: everything is a work-in-progress
1064 2011-12-16 18:27:03 <gavinandresen> we'll never get deterministic builds if we don't work through the problems
1065 2011-12-16 18:27:07 <devrandom> I have my -win32.zip contents sha256'ed here: https://gitian.org/qt.txt
1066 2011-12-16 18:27:37 <wumpus> but does libfaketime support the time=time+1 trick? it'd be much better than setting a fixed time, at least for the qt build, and would allow getting rid of the hacks I added
1067 2011-12-16 18:29:24 <luke-jr> I think the real problem you guys will hit is that Linux itself isn't deterministic ;)
1068 2011-12-16 18:29:42 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: uploading the win32-gitian.zips now, should be done in a few minutes....
1069 2011-12-16 18:29:45 <wumpus> I don't think that's the issue luke-jr
1070 2011-12-16 18:30:08 <wumpus> given the build steps are done in the same order, and don't incorporate real timestamps, the result is deterministic
1071 2011-12-16 18:30:08 <luke-jr> wumpus: if any part of the build process depends on thread execution order, it will be
1072 2011-12-16 18:30:25 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: er, it's perfectly possible to have determinstic builds. I use binary diffing all the time to make sure that source-code-only changes really are source-code-only
1073 2011-12-16 18:30:41 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: KDE needs to do that.
1074 2011-12-16 18:30:52 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: then you make sure that the output doesn't depend on that.
1075 2011-12-16 18:30:55 <luke-jr> KDE 4.7 broke something because of an accidental precedence change
1076 2011-12-16 18:31:12 <gmaxwell> Yea, I've _caught_ mistakes like that, but I actually try.
1077 2011-12-16 18:31:19 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I'm not sure boost or Qt consider deterministic a feature they care about.
1078 2011-12-16 18:31:33 <wumpus> they don't
1079 2011-12-16 18:31:41 <gmaxwell> (On time I accidently corrected a precedence bug when I was just doing some code cleanup, doh)
1080 2011-12-16 18:32:08 <gavinandresen> luke-jr sipa:  Any consensus on bitcoin address numbering ?
1081 2011-12-16 18:32:10 <gmaxwell> "good news, fixed a bug. Bad news: wasn't actually trying to change the code"
1082 2011-12-16 18:32:31 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I think we're going with my last proposal for 20-byte data
1083 2011-12-16 18:32:41 localhost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1085 2011-12-16 18:34:14 <luke-jr> sipa: are you okay with just leaving the keys on 128 since they don't make sense in the 20-byte proposal?
1086 2011-12-16 18:34:34 <luke-jr> IMO changing it out from under Bitbill/casacious for no reason would be bad
1087 2011-12-16 18:34:52 <devrandom> BlueMatt: gavinandresen: I have to run, and will take a look at builds this weekend.  meanwhile you can compare your files to the sha256 url I posted above.
1088 2011-12-16 18:35:00 <BlueMatt> devrandom: will do, see ya
1089 2011-12-16 18:35:11 <devrandom> this was done with: find . -type f  | xargs -n10 sha256sum   > qt.txt
1090 2011-12-16 18:35:24 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: ... so byte \05 for OP_EVAL.  And testnet changes from 111 to 192 (and 196 for OP_EVAL)
1091 2011-12-16 18:36:21 localhost has joined
1092 2011-12-16 18:37:53 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: yes
1093 2011-12-16 18:40:20 <helo> can merged mining do testnet as well?
1094 2011-12-16 18:41:06 <luke-jr> helo: no
1095 2011-12-16 18:41:30 Turingi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1096 2011-12-16 18:42:07 <helo> might cut down on blockchain bloat if testnet was usable for normal development i.e.- regular solved blocks :(
1097 2011-12-16 18:42:21 TD has joined
1098 2011-12-16 18:42:38 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I updated https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0013   can you make sure I got it right
1099 2011-12-16 18:44:17 <luke-jr> helo: I agree, but such a change is non-trivial
1100 2011-12-16 18:44:29 <luke-jr> helo: ideally, bitcoin itself should support merged mining
1101 2011-12-16 18:45:12 <luke-jr> but that's one of those "when we fork the block chain" thing
1102 2011-12-16 18:46:07 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1103 2011-12-16 18:46:48 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt wumpus:  my -gitian.zips are up at   http://skypaint.com/bitcoin/
1104 2011-12-16 18:47:02 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: thanks
1105 2011-12-16 18:47:09 <wumpus> ok thanks
1106 2011-12-16 18:47:40 Shaded has joined
1107 2011-12-16 18:48:07 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: looks correct, but I question whether discussion of the version number scheme belongs in the OP_EVAL BIP
1108 2011-12-16 18:48:36 <luke-jr> ie, the "Rationale" section
1109 2011-12-16 18:49:03 <gavinandresen> Magic numbers need some rationale....
1110 2011-12-16 18:49:14 <gavinandresen> ... even if just "11 is gavin's favorite number."
1111 2011-12-16 18:49:19 <luke-jr> yes, but the BIP is about OP_EVAL, not the number
1112 2011-12-16 18:49:38 <luke-jr> perhaps I should make a new BIP for the 20-byte scheme we're suing…
1113 2011-12-16 18:49:40 <luke-jr> using*
1114 2011-12-16 18:49:42 <gavinandresen> Right.  And there is no "new scheme for bitcoin address versions" BIP.  I don't care to write one....
1115 2011-12-16 18:50:04 <luke-jr> (one that will hopefully be deprecated by a snaer repaacement)
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1117 2011-12-16 18:50:49 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: BIP 12 is about OP_EVAL-- BIP 13 is about the associated numbering scheme.  Maybe BIP13 should be superceded by your grander scheme, but, again, I don't care
1118 2011-12-16 18:51:19 <wumpus> which commit to build?
1119 2011-12-16 18:51:28 <gavinandresen> v0.5.1
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1133 2011-12-16 19:25:43 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/In_Person_Traders <-- genius
1134 2011-12-16 19:25:59 kish has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1135 2011-12-16 19:26:07 <wumpus> 0507969680fd1952f57b54842a8f463c40f3add3d6614281fab4be53916c0b76  bitcoin-0.5.1-win32-setup.exe
1136 2011-12-16 19:26:07 <wumpus> 01aad906ac14b9a2f877b2743272e1203004a7573b002396a11475037703ba86  bitcoin-qt.exe
1137 2011-12-16 19:26:36 <wumpus> luke-jr: nice
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1139 2011-12-16 19:27:48 MobiusL has joined
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1142 2011-12-16 19:31:23 <gavinandresen> Quick check:  nobody else has started working on BIP 14 yet, right?  (that's the separate protocol-version-from-client-version BIP)
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1147 2011-12-16 19:34:20 <BlueMatt> using gavin's inputs, both me and gavin got:
1148 2011-12-16 19:34:20 <BlueMatt>     3ab0c764dad7e82cd6a65312da820ecab455193795e54cb3903d4c45ae94cad0  bitcoin-0.5.1-win32-setup.exe
1149 2011-12-16 19:34:21 <BlueMatt>     92c98d37c7b6ad3700691d6b34bde029ce17ba34e3f147367b9527c283f4a2b0  bitcoin-qt.exe
1150 2011-12-16 19:35:48 <TD> gavinandresen: i switched bitcoinj to use the proposed string format but didn't do anything beyond that
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1153 2011-12-16 19:36:52 <gavinandresen> TD: assuming nobody else has started, I'm going to implement it for bitcoind/bitcoin-qt (remove VERSION and have separate PROTOCOL_VERSION and CLIENT_VERSION)
1154 2011-12-16 19:37:35 <gavinandresen> ... with PROTOCOL_VERSION starting at 60000
1155 2011-12-16 19:37:40 <TD> cool
1156 2011-12-16 19:38:21 genjix has joined
1157 2011-12-16 19:38:24 hippich has joined
1158 2011-12-16 19:38:39 <genjix> how can i report security vulnerabilities with bitcoin
1159 2011-12-16 19:40:04 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1160 2011-12-16 19:40:34 <genjix> jgarzik, sipa or gavinandresen
1161 2011-12-16 19:40:42 <wumpus> BlueMatt: huh, seems I got a different output
1162 2011-12-16 19:41:13 _Fireball has joined
1163 2011-12-16 19:41:23 <gavinandresen> genjix:  bitcoin-security@lists.sourceforge.com (or is it .net?)
1164 2011-12-16 19:41:31 <gavinandresen> genjix: ... or just email us
1165 2011-12-16 19:41:34 <jgarzik> bitcoin-security@lists.sourceforge.net
1166 2011-12-16 19:41:37 <wumpus> 0507969680fd1952f57b54842a8f463c40f3add3d6614281fab4be53916c0b76  build/out/bitcoin-0.5.1-win32-setup.exe
1167 2011-12-16 19:41:37 <wumpus> 01aad906ac14b9a2f877b2743272e1203004a7573b002396a11475037703ba86  build/out/bitcoin-qt.exe
1168 2011-12-16 19:41:42 <wumpus> hm no I didn't
1169 2011-12-16 19:41:43 <wumpus> it matches
1170 2011-12-16 19:42:02 <wumpus> strange, the hash printed by gitian itself (see above) was different...
1171 2011-12-16 19:42:04 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: we should get a security@bitcoin.org alias
1172 2011-12-16 19:42:24 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ACK.  can you make that happen?
1173 2011-12-16 19:42:24 <genjix> ok thanks
1174 2011-12-16 19:42:42 <wumpus> ok so we all got the same exe, that's great
1175 2011-12-16 19:43:06 kish has joined
1176 2011-12-16 19:43:21 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I think tcatm can
1177 2011-12-16 19:43:30 <BlueMatt> wumpus: can you commit your sigs on the gitian output to bitcoin/gitian.sigs
1178 2011-12-16 19:43:41 <BlueMatt> wumpus: (see doc/releaseprocess.txt for info)
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1182 2011-12-16 19:49:18 <tcatm> gavinandresen, jgarzik: I can't. I don't have access to bitcoin.org's DNS nor to a server that could handle the emails.
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1185 2011-12-16 19:51:16 <jgarzik> tcatm: that's sirius?
1186 2011-12-16 19:52:19 <tcatm> I think so.
1187 2011-12-16 19:53:06 <wumpus> BlueMatt: ok, added a pull request 
1188 2011-12-16 19:53:50 <[Tycho]> jgarzik: hello. Do you know why getwork returns block header for hashing not as just 80 bytes, but concatenated with another field ?
1189 2011-12-16 19:54:54 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: if it makes things any easier, my 'next' branch is up to date and could be merged into master easily
1190 2011-12-16 19:54:58 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1191 2011-12-16 19:55:02 <luke-jr> (I think…)
1192 2011-12-16 19:55:15 <luke-jr> actually not sure if I updated it after you rebased something
1193 2011-12-16 19:55:42 <genjix> ok check your emails
1194 2011-12-16 19:55:51 sacarlson has joined
1195 2011-12-16 19:56:19 <genjix> at gavinandresen, jgarzik and tcatm
1196 2011-12-16 19:56:21 <luke-jr> looks like the rebase was testnet stuff, which I do *not* have in 'next' right now
1197 2011-12-16 19:56:45 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ok, you can push there now
1198 2011-12-16 19:56:50 <gavinandresen> genjix: thanks
1199 2011-12-16 19:56:58 <genjix> no worries
1200 2011-12-16 19:57:45 <genjix> is phantomcircuit added? can you add him to the list :) bitcoin-security@covertinferno.org
1201 2011-12-16 19:58:58 <BlueMatt> wumpus: oh, can you add linux sigs as well?
1202 2011-12-16 19:59:02 <luke-jr> genjix: me too please
1203 2011-12-16 19:59:18 <luke-jr> genjix: luke+bitcoin+security@dashjr.org
1204 2011-12-16 19:59:30 <genjix> i dont control the list
1205 2011-12-16 19:59:33 <luke-jr> who does?
1206 2011-12-16 19:59:49 <genjix> not sure. someone here like jgar of gandres
1207 2011-12-16 19:59:59 <BlueMatt> wumpus: also, can you confirm your pgp key id
1208 2011-12-16 20:00:21 <genjix> luke-jr: i can forward you the mail also though
1209 2011-12-16 20:00:24 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: do you want me to make an explicit pull request for 'next'?
1210 2011-12-16 20:00:53 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: next is a whole bunch of pull requests bundled up?
1211 2011-12-16 20:01:05 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: yes, all merged together (conflicts resolved)
1212 2011-12-16 20:01:43 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  no, I'd rather pull/discuss new features one by one
1213 2011-12-16 20:01:52 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I also have a 'next-test' with things not yet ACK'd for 0.6; I test/use that one.
1214 2011-12-16 20:02:06 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: 'next' only has stuff already discussed/ACK'd
1215 2011-12-16 20:06:01 <luke-jr> oh well, regardless of how the merging gets done, the GitHub pull req overview of it all is IMO useful… close it if you want
1216 2011-12-16 20:06:19 Nesetalis has joined
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1218 2011-12-16 20:07:39 <luke-jr> "Showing 41 changed files with 2,585 additions and 472 deletions."
1219 2011-12-16 20:07:40 <luke-jr> :o
1220 2011-12-16 20:08:10 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: in fact, if you *don't* close it, GitHub will probably mess with it when I update it…
1221 2011-12-16 20:08:19 <luke-jr> (ie, when you pull things individually)
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1223 2011-12-16 20:08:47 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1224 2011-12-16 20:08:49 <luke-jr> (so please do)
1225 2011-12-16 20:08:49 <BlueMatt> wumpus: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/706
1226 2011-12-16 20:10:13 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/705
1227 2011-12-16 20:10:32 merde has joined
1228 2011-12-16 20:10:34 <BlueMatt> wumpus: also, if you dont mind can you give me a final review of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/593 , Id like to see it pulled for 0.6, but I want your ACK...or are there any more suggestions you have?
1229 2011-12-16 20:11:06 <[eval]> bitcoind from PPA updated to 0.5.1 yay
1230 2011-12-16 20:11:07 edcba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1231 2011-12-16 20:11:26 <BlueMatt> [eval]: you're welcome ;)
1232 2011-12-16 20:12:36 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/705 <-- 'next' summary
1233 2011-12-16 20:13:20 larsivi has joined
1234 2011-12-16 20:13:37 edcba has joined
1235 2011-12-16 20:16:31 <[eval]> BlueMatt: thanks :D
1236 2011-12-16 20:16:41 * [eval] <3 PPA
1237 2011-12-16 20:17:17 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1238 2011-12-16 20:17:20 <[eval]> luke-jr: i just forked the repo and am working on setting up git on my machine... gonna familiarize myself with the internals of bitcoin and try and create those pull requests we were talking about in #bitcoin :>
1239 2011-12-16 20:19:36 <luke-jr> [eval]: cool
1240 2011-12-16 20:20:35 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
1241 2011-12-16 20:21:52 <gavinandresen> eval: this sticky forum post might be useful:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41718.0
1242 2011-12-16 20:24:51 <[eval]> gavinandresen: many thanks :> that was one of the first places i was going to look after figuring out git
1243 2011-12-16 20:25:16 <[eval]> this may take me a while; i haven't coded in C++ in a long, long time
1244 2011-12-16 20:25:19 <luke-jr> (FYI, what [eval] and I discussed was being able to add fees to transactions later)
1245 2011-12-16 20:25:40 <[eval]> (without doing versioning)
1246 2011-12-16 20:25:47 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1248 2011-12-16 20:27:21 <[eval]> i might do it as two separate pull requests: one to redeem a low-priority transaction's outputs with a high-priority transaction thereby getting them both into a block (allowing the recipient to retroactively "up" a transaction's priority either by paying fees or by adding high-priority inputs)...
1249 2011-12-16 20:28:26 <[eval]> and one to actually replace one transaction with another by decreasing one of the outputs to add fees or adding an input and increasing one of the outputs by <= the amount of the additional input (thus either raising priority or adding a fee)
1250 2011-12-16 20:29:28 RazielZ has joined
1251 2011-12-16 20:29:55 <[eval]> this should allow transactions to be "unstuck" if miners don't accept them without opening up opportunities for double-spending
1252 2011-12-16 20:31:45 <[eval]> until a transaction is in a block, it's in the memory pool only and not written to disk?
1253 2011-12-16 20:31:57 <JFK911> what sense does that make
1254 2011-12-16 20:32:29 <luke-jr> [eval]: actually, right now nodes won't even put it in the memory pool without fees
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1256 2011-12-16 20:32:57 <[eval]> luke-jr: will they relay it but not put it in the memory pool?
1257 2011-12-16 20:33:28 <BlueMatt> [eval]: there is already support for transaction replacement written into the client and short-circuited, I would suggest using that ;)
1258 2011-12-16 20:34:03 Shaded has joined
1259 2011-12-16 20:35:21 <luke-jr> [eval]: they won't relay it, currently.
1260 2011-12-16 20:35:23 <[eval]> BlueMatt: i'm like a bull in a china shop right now; i don't know what's where till i read all the code :P
1261 2011-12-16 20:35:41 <BlueMatt> (though a second spend would work, its more stuff in the chain and really is not the preferred way to do it...that said, if the tx is one your received instead of sent you have to, so maybe just one rpc command to increase fee that will automatically choose between the possibilities based on who the coins were to...
1262 2011-12-16 20:35:45 <[eval]> luke-jr: so what's the problem? if it doesn't get relayed and it doesn't get put in the memory pool, it doesn't really exist at all, does it?
1263 2011-12-16 20:36:15 <luke-jr> [eval]: the problem is that your own client has no way to reissue it
1264 2011-12-16 20:37:06 <gavinandresen> teaching the client to give up re-transmitting transactions that haven't made it into a block after... a long time... is a good idea.
1265 2011-12-16 20:37:27 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1266 2011-12-16 20:37:29 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: better would be to reissue the same one, under a new txid/fee
1267 2011-12-16 20:37:38 <BlueMatt> implementing the tx replacement stuff that was written in originally is another good idea...
1268 2011-12-16 20:37:56 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: don't want to have people doing attacks where someone's transaction gets "undone" then later goes through after they've resent it
1269 2011-12-16 20:38:16 <TD> shadders: hey
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1271 2011-12-16 20:38:48 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: good point.
1272 2011-12-16 20:39:18 <TD> [eval]: i'd like to see miners consider fees for transactions including all pending dependencies
1273 2011-12-16 20:39:23 <luke-jr> in other words, we never want to display "transaction cancelled" when there's any chance it could be valid still
1274 2011-12-16 20:39:33 <TD> [eval]: i think long term incorporating chains of transactions together to claim the fees on the last one will be quite common
1275 2011-12-16 20:39:40 <luke-jr> "Transaction cancelled with N confirmations" once it's been respent
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1277 2011-12-16 20:40:20 <luke-jr> TD: yes, that's the ideal way. but not always practical.
1278 2011-12-16 20:40:32 <luke-jr> TD: ie, if the first one didn't have fees to be relayed, the miner will never get it
1279 2011-12-16 20:40:37 <BlueMatt> thats the ideal way if you are the receiver, not the sender
1280 2011-12-16 20:40:39 <TD> yes
1281 2011-12-16 20:40:45 <gmaxwell> TD: considering dependencies is good. Since it lets the rx side potentially unstick one too.
1282 2011-12-16 20:40:47 <luke-jr> TD: ie, if the sender didn't have any change, they can't make something depend on it
1283 2011-12-16 20:41:15 <luke-jr> receiver would need to use dependencies + direct miner connections
1284 2011-12-16 20:41:22 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: of course, we could potentially use the same rules for relaying if we had code to make that decision.
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1286 2011-12-16 20:41:24 <TD> it probably needs changes to also relay transactions in a group if there are fee-paying transactions that depend on it
1287 2011-12-16 20:41:27 <luke-jr> unless we add a way to relay transactions in pairs
1288 2011-12-16 20:41:43 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: if you don't remember TxnA even an instant later for TxnB, you don't know ;)
1289 2011-12-16 20:41:58 <TD> gmaxwell: i'm thinking a bit more long term ... to when payers never include fees and recipients attach a fee paying tx to the chain when a risk analysis tells them to
1290 2011-12-16 20:42:26 <BlueMatt> TD: I prefer the eligius-mtgox style of doing things
1291 2011-12-16 20:42:34 <TD> gmaxwell: ie, if my brother gives me some coins for my birthday, why broadcast/pay fees, i can then send them to a merchant but why should i pay fees (i know i am trustworthy), so then there are 3 txns in a pool
1292 2011-12-16 20:42:38 <BlueMatt> TD: less in-bitcoin and simpler for bitcoin itself
1293 2011-12-16 20:42:44 <TD> the 3rd is from the merchant who doesn't know me, so wants the chain to help
1294 2011-12-16 20:42:53 <TD> BlueMatt: which way is that ?
1295 2011-12-16 20:42:59 <luke-jr> TD: good idea
1296 2011-12-16 20:43:07 <BlueMatt> mtgox pays eligius flat-fee and eligius includes any txes they get from them
1297 2011-12-16 20:43:27 <TD> that's a good arrangement. luke-jr++ for getting the "backbone" kick started
1298 2011-12-16 20:43:41 <luke-jr> "flat-fee" in this case is
1299 2011-12-16 20:43:46 <TD> it doesn't scale that well though
1300 2011-12-16 20:43:46 <luke-jr> "server hosting costs"
1301 2011-12-16 20:43:47 <luke-jr> ;)
1302 2011-12-16 20:44:07 <TD> i'm surprised that mt gox feels this is useful though, at current levels of inflation
1303 2011-12-16 20:44:11 <gmaxwell> I still wish we had something to securely maintain balances. It would be silly to send luke a single transaction just to free a transaction.
1304 2011-12-16 20:44:19 <TD> surely all their txns would be included ASAP anyway?
1305 2011-12-16 20:44:21 <gmaxwell> TD: it lets them unwedge _incoming_ txn.
1306 2011-12-16 20:44:46 <TD> ah, so when people send them coins without sufficient fees
1307 2011-12-16 20:44:56 <gmaxwell> sent by old idiot clients of whatever ilk their users choose to use.. yea.
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1309 2011-12-16 20:45:06 <TD> ok
1310 2011-12-16 20:45:11 <BlueMatt> TD: well in the arrangement mtgox never pays fees...
1311 2011-12-16 20:45:34 <luke-jr> TD: actually, MtGox used their arrangement to destroy a significant amount of coins with a non-standard txn… :p
1312 2011-12-16 20:45:36 <TD> i bet the hosting costs for eligius are higher than the tx fees gox would pay. but that's just a guess. i'd be worried if i was wrong though
1313 2011-12-16 20:45:42 <TD> we all pay a huge "fee" in the form of inflation right now
1314 2011-12-16 20:45:47 <TD> it buys us lots of security but it's still a big cost
1315 2011-12-16 20:45:54 <BlueMatt> true
1316 2011-12-16 20:45:57 <TD> luke-jr: ah yes, i saw that. whoopsie.
1317 2011-12-16 20:46:06 <TD> luke-jr: i wonder how they did that
1318 2011-12-16 20:46:16 <luke-jr> TD: MtGox uses their own wallet codebase
1319 2011-12-16 20:46:23 <TD> interesting
1320 2011-12-16 20:46:38 <TD> i was guessing that satoshis wallet code would not scale to their needs
1321 2011-12-16 20:46:43 <TD> didn't realize they'd done their own from scratch
1322 2011-12-16 20:46:48 <TD> is it based on any public codebases?
1323 2011-12-16 20:46:55 <luke-jr> QBitcoin maybe
1324 2011-12-16 20:47:07 <luke-jr> although that is only "to be public in the future"
1325 2011-12-16 20:47:29 <TD> ah
1326 2011-12-16 20:47:34 <TD> that'd make sense
1327 2011-12-16 20:49:44 <TD> gmaxwell: what's the latest conclusion on the butterfly labs thing?
1328 2011-12-16 20:49:50 <TD> these threads are gigantic
1329 2011-12-16 20:51:18 Shaded has quit (Quit: Shaded)
1330 2011-12-16 20:53:02 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1331 2011-12-16 20:55:03 <TD> looks like it's actually being integrated into miner software
1332 2011-12-16 20:55:03 <TD> wow
1333 2011-12-16 20:55:47 <luke-jr> TD: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/5c89f2e036b694bf2bd58060533fd651d7f8a580
1334 2011-12-16 20:56:31 <TD> luke-jr: so you have one yourself?
1335 2011-12-16 20:56:48 <luke-jr> TD: I had access to one last weekend. Mine has not arrived yet.
1336 2011-12-16 20:56:52 <TD> ah
1337 2011-12-16 20:56:57 <TD> pretty amazing. are they real asics?
1338 2011-12-16 20:57:05 <TD> i didn't think anyone would do that for at least another two years
1339 2011-12-16 20:57:22 <[eval]> O_o
1340 2011-12-16 20:57:29 <[eval]> it's not a scam?!
1341 2011-12-16 20:57:30 <TD> bitcoin always moves faster than i think it will
1342 2011-12-16 20:58:12 <luke-jr> TD: no idea
1343 2011-12-16 20:58:45 <luke-jr> TD: I just had fun making Bitcoin-Qt have a simple "Generate Bitcoins" checkbox that uses a BitForce to mine on Eligius, no configuration required. :D
1344 2011-12-16 20:58:51 <TD> heh
1345 2011-12-16 20:58:55 <TD> well
1346 2011-12-16 20:58:59 <TD> that does change the game quite a bit
1347 2011-12-16 20:59:01 <[Tycho]> TD, it's FPGA
1348 2011-12-16 20:59:16 <TD> i thought somebody had run the numbers on FPGAs and they didn't work out cost wise
1349 2011-12-16 21:00:02 sacarlson has joined
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1351 2011-12-16 21:00:44 <luke-jr> TD: well, BFL is NOT getting the advertised 1.05 GH/s
1352 2011-12-16 21:00:47 <[Tycho]> TD, that's right, they didn't reached their announced numbers.
1353 2011-12-16 21:00:55 <luke-jr> my implementation only gets ~320 MH/s due to inefficiency on my end
1354 2011-12-16 21:00:58 <Eliel> TD: that's only because the manufacturers are stubbornly asking steep prices for them :P
1355 2011-12-16 21:01:05 <TD> Eliel: hmm :)
1356 2011-12-16 21:01:13 <[Tycho]> And the power consumption is 4 times more.
1357 2011-12-16 21:01:29 <[Tycho]> But real ASICs will be implemented too :)
1358 2011-12-16 21:01:34 <TD> ok
1359 2011-12-16 21:01:47 <TD> i guess they want to prove out the business model and get a feel for sales before real ASICs are fabbed
1360 2011-12-16 21:02:01 elkingrey has quit (Client Quit)
1361 2011-12-16 21:02:01 <[eval]> has anyone heard anything from largecoin lately, speaking of ASICs?
1362 2011-12-16 21:02:12 <[Tycho]> There are rumors that Deepbit is working on ASIC development.
1363 2011-12-16 21:02:31 <TD> i think artforz made some, before he vanished (?)
1364 2011-12-16 21:02:34 AStove has quit ()
1365 2011-12-16 21:02:34 <TD> structured ASICs
1366 2011-12-16 21:02:37 <TD> but they weren't competitive with GPUs
1367 2011-12-16 21:02:38 <[Tycho]> Yes, he did.
1368 2011-12-16 21:02:49 <Eliel> with old tech I think I read.
1369 2011-12-16 21:02:58 <[Tycho]> But I'm not talking about structured ones.
1370 2011-12-16 21:08:38 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1375 2011-12-16 21:10:44 <JFK911> what is it going to take for chinese to clone the bitforce so everyone can buy it for $150 and use the butterfly software
1376 2011-12-16 21:13:17 <[Tycho]> Why clone it if they can do better ?
1377 2011-12-16 21:13:36 <[Tycho]> ngzhang is working on 1.5 GH/s unit for <$1k
1378 2011-12-16 21:14:08 <[Tycho]> (with less power consumption)
1379 2011-12-16 21:14:18 <TD> all i want is an electric fan heater that is also a mining unit. my girlfriend always wants the flat ridiculously hot
1380 2011-12-16 21:14:38 <[Tycho]> Use 5970 then ^)
1381 2011-12-16 21:14:57 <TD> i don't want to buy an entire desktop computer and track down an obscure video card, set it up, etc
1382 2011-12-16 21:15:10 <TD> just want to buy a portable unit with a handle+power plug that works automagically :)
1383 2011-12-16 21:15:29 <[Tycho]> It will cost you thousands of USD
1384 2011-12-16 21:15:54 <TD> probably
1385 2011-12-16 21:15:55 <[Tycho]> Possibly $16k
1386 2011-12-16 21:15:56 <TD> but i can dream :)
1387 2011-12-16 21:16:13 <[Tycho]> I will offer such box next year.
1388 2011-12-16 21:18:17 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: but it is winter NOW....
1389 2011-12-16 21:18:36 <[Tycho]> Sorry, ASIC development is slow :(
1390 2011-12-16 21:19:12 <TD> next winter :)
1391 2011-12-16 21:19:30 <iz> move to the other hemisphere
1392 2011-12-16 21:20:12 hippich has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1393 2011-12-16 21:21:38 <[Tycho]> I did.
1394 2011-12-16 21:21:51 <TD> [Tycho]: where do you live now?
1395 2011-12-16 21:22:03 <[Tycho]> Vietnam.
1396 2011-12-16 21:39:11 <ThomasV> city?
1397 2011-12-16 21:40:18 Shaded has joined
1398 2011-12-16 21:44:25 dan__ has joined
1399 2011-12-16 21:46:24 <[Tycho]> Different cities.
1400 2011-12-16 21:47:11 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1401 2011-12-16 21:47:58 <ThomasV> hanoi?
1402 2011-12-16 21:48:23 <[Tycho]> Hanoi too.
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1412 2011-12-16 22:07:10 <Mqrius> Where's the block number in the 0.5 GUI?
1413 2011-12-16 22:08:33 <[Tycho]> In the tooltip.
1414 2011-12-16 22:08:52 abragin has quit ()
1415 2011-12-16 22:08:54 <Mqrius> I mean the total block number at the moment
1416 2011-12-16 22:08:58 <Mqrius> not the confirmations
1417 2011-12-16 22:09:19 <[Tycho]> Yes.
1418 2011-12-16 22:09:46 <Mqrius> Tooltip of what?
1419 2011-12-16 22:11:10 <TD> bottom right hand icon
1420 2011-12-16 22:11:53 <Mqrius> Ah right, thanks!
1421 2011-12-16 22:16:20 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rab6c453 / src/init.cpp : Merge branch 'fix-help-translations' of https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin - http://git.io/rDFMpQ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/ab6c45372c61d2092ca888108bdc9067a1115b8e
1422 2011-12-16 22:16:20 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r6e39e7c / (17 files in 3 dirs): Move more newlines out of strings, and fix translations. - http://git.io/qzfSGQ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/6e39e7c9b3ff97c16d9b2253629589e6f40ddfa4
1423 2011-12-16 22:17:23 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rf0a7057 / (3 files): Merge pull request #706 from TheBlueMatt/gitian ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/f0a70570feb4045faf986c307ed7bb0b9dd62a02
1424 2011-12-16 22:19:23 slush has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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1426 2011-12-16 22:21:27 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r8214620 / contrib/debian/changelog : Merge pull request #704 from TheBlueMatt/master ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/821462017860c780badf42cb50c3796575e0e053
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1439 2011-12-16 22:36:36 <Mqrius> How do I change the language of the client (0.5)? I hate Dutch.
1440 2011-12-16 22:39:37 <tcatm> change your systems locale
1441 2011-12-16 22:39:46 erle- has joined
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1446 2011-12-16 22:57:09 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.5.0.x * r5fe2dbd7b6a1 bitcoind-stable/contrib/debian/changelog: Update debian changelog to 0.5.0.3. http://tinyurl.com/cjsgvn7
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1455 2011-12-16 23:07:18 <CIA-100> bitcoin: various 0.5.x * r7aa253..7298eb bitcoind-stable/ (85 files in 11 dirs): (49 commits) http://tinyurl.com/76u2mm7
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1460 2011-12-16 23:17:08 <CIA-100> bitcoin: various coinbaser * r75ebc0..43421a bitcoind-personal/ (29 files in 8 dirs): (9 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3lrgdkn
1461 2011-12-16 23:17:09 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r1176b9..86b480 / (19 files in 8 dirs): (5 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3vnjz6l
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1465 2011-12-16 23:25:16 <luke-jr> ;;later tell BlueMatt keepnode needs rebasing
1466 2011-12-16 23:25:16 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1469 2011-12-16 23:27:03 <CIA-100> bitcoin: various next * rd7dc7d..c56e49 bitcoind-personal/ (41 files in 6 dirs): (6 commits) http://tinyurl.com/7fsst7u
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1474 2011-12-16 23:37:05 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Matt Corallo newdnsseeds * r61a8c0569e5b bitcoind-personal/src/net.cpp: Add sipa's new dnsseed. http://tinyurl.com/c894wta
1475 2011-12-16 23:37:05 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr next-test * r6652f4..7ab16f bitcoind-personal/ (28 files in 5 dirs): (5 commits) http://tinyurl.com/7vr93zh
1476 2011-12-16 23:37:06 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr newdnsseeds * r647734881c5c bitcoind-personal/src/net.cpp: Add my DNS seed domain http://tinyurl.com/cbg8cev
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