1 2011-12-18 00:00:05 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: my proposal for pay to pubkey would require compression
  2 2011-12-18 00:00:42 <gmaxwell> We should make a matrix of these things with all the sizes and which software changes are required.
  3 2011-12-18 00:01:04 <gmaxwell> (by we, I mean me I guess)
  4 2011-12-18 00:01:15 <luke-jr> anyhow, defining an address format, and supporting it as a destination, doesn't mean anyone has to use it
  5 2011-12-18 00:01:24 <luke-jr> it just makes the option available in the future
  6 2011-12-18 00:01:49 <sipa> it does require client software to support it before it is useful
  7 2011-12-18 00:01:56 <luke-jr> send-to-recovered-pubkey-with-hash < send-to-compressed-pubkey < send-to-compressed-pubkeys-hash < send-to-pubkey < send-to-pubkeys-hash
  8 2011-12-18 00:02:07 <luke-jr> sipa: exactly
  9 2011-12-18 00:02:23 <gmaxwell> but it also makes pruning less useful forever.
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 11 2011-12-18 00:02:32 <gmaxwell> (if its widely used, at least)
 12 2011-12-18 00:04:02 <sipa> pay-to-pubkeys-hash: 25 + 139 bytes
 13 2011-12-18 00:04:15 <sipa> pay-to-recovered-pubkey: 24 + 66 bytes
 14 2011-12-18 00:04:36 <sipa> (using my own proposal for op_eval script extension)
 15 2011-12-18 00:05:07 <gmaxwell> Have numbers on pay to pubkey/ pay to compressed pubkey? (I'm making a table now)
 16 2011-12-18 00:05:48 <sipa> pay-to-pubkey: 67 + 73
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 18 2011-12-18 00:06:01 <sipa> pay-to-compressed-pubkey: 35 + 73
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 20 2011-12-18 00:06:44 <sipa> pay-to-compressed-pubkeys-hash: 25 + 107
 21 2011-12-18 00:07:30 <sipa> that's not entirely a fair comparison, because if we'd roll out my script extensions, the other pay-to-hash sizes would shrink a bit too
 22 2011-12-18 00:09:15 <sipa> onne byte
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 27 2011-12-18 00:18:26 <sipa> hmm, i may have forgotten the hash type into the calculations
 28 2011-12-18 00:18:34 <luke-jr> IMO, if we can squeeze pubkey recovery into OP_EVAL we should
 29 2011-12-18 00:18:46 <sipa> luke-jr: https://gist.github.com/gists/1262449
 30 2011-12-18 00:19:05 <luke-jr> sipa: THAT is not practical
 31 2011-12-18 00:19:25 <sipa> to be enabled only within OP_EVAL
 32 2011-12-18 00:19:28 <luke-jr> oh
 33 2011-12-18 00:19:29 <luke-jr> hmmmmmmm
 34 2011-12-18 00:19:34 <luke-jr> k
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 36 2011-12-18 00:20:13 <luke-jr> I'm willing to do my part to delay OP_EVAL for it ;)
 37 2011-12-18 00:20:20 <gmaxwell> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/addr.compare.html
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 39 2011-12-18 00:21:40 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: use the Bitcoin wiki so we can sort -.-
 40 2011-12-18 00:22:16 <gmaxwell> oops I have some numbers swapped.
 41 2011-12-18 00:22:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: pay-to-recovered-pubkey is 24 + 67
 42 2011-12-18 00:22:55 <sipa> i forgot one byte :)
 43 2011-12-18 00:23:19 <luke-jr> send-to-hash, send-to-hash w/ recovery, send-to-pubkey, send-to-compressed-pubkey, send-to-compressed-pubkey-hash, send-to-compressed-pubkey-hash w/ recovery
 44 2011-12-18 00:25:21 <luke-jr> last one?
 45 2011-12-18 00:26:14 <gmaxwell> With recovery you never actually send the pubkey (its recovered) so compressed or not is moot.
 46 2011-12-18 00:26:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: what is "upgrade tx" ?
 47 2011-12-18 00:26:27 <luke-jr> true
 48 2011-12-18 00:26:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: new sender software
 49 2011-12-18 00:27:00 <gmaxwell> I think you don't need new sender software for send-to-compressed-pubkey-hash.
 50 2011-12-18 00:27:07 <gmaxwell> (or pay to address, of course)
 51 2011-12-18 00:27:10 <sipa> what is the difference between "upgrade sender" and "upgrade tx" ?
 52 2011-12-18 00:27:18 <sipa> *upgrade send
 53 2011-12-18 00:27:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: reloader.
 54 2011-12-18 00:27:48 <gmaxwell> upgrade tx is upgrading the send side software, upgrade rx is upgrading the recieve side software.
 55 2011-12-18 00:28:05 <sipa> got it
 56 2011-12-18 00:28:10 <sipa> seems correct
 57 2011-12-18 00:28:42 <gmaxwell> I'll put it on the wiki in a bit.
 58 2011-12-18 00:28:53 <sipa> send-to-pubkey as luke-jr proposes it does require an upgrade rx, as the receiver needs to create a base58 representation of the pubkey
 59 2011-12-18 00:29:31 <sipa> although the actual receice code is obviously already there
 60 2011-12-18 00:30:39 <gmaxwell> True, noted.
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 62 2011-12-18 00:33:09 <sipa> hmm, so send-to-compressed-pubkey-hash is unambiguously better than send-to-pubkey
 63 2011-12-18 00:33:36 <luke-jr> yes
 64 2011-12-18 00:33:41 <luke-jr> wait
 65 2011-12-18 00:34:09 <luke-jr> yes
 66 2011-12-18 00:34:12 <sipa> oh, right - but you're proposing send-to-compressed-pubkey of course
 67 2011-12-18 00:34:14 <luke-jr> but nobody was talking about send-to-pubkey
 68 2011-12-18 00:34:17 <luke-jr> yep
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 71 2011-12-18 00:36:28 <luke-jr> send-to-compressed-pubkey incurs a tiny hit on pruned nodes (10 bytes), in exchange for major savings on full nodes (56 bytes)
 72 2011-12-18 00:36:56 <luke-jr> send-to-key-hash w/ recovery is undeniably the best solution, though'
 73 2011-12-18 00:37:14 <luke-jr> and most of the work is already being done for OP_EVAL anyway
 74 2011-12-18 00:37:31 <sipa> well, as secp256k1 only has 128 bits of security, we could use 128-bit hashes as well ;)
 75 2011-12-18 00:38:20 <sipa> (though one step of the 2^128 to break secp256k1's ECDSA is significantly harder than one step of a 128-bit hash function_
 76 2011-12-18 00:38:49 <luke-jr> hmm
 77 2011-12-18 00:39:03 <luke-jr> maybe we should defer OP_EVAL long enough to consider what other opcodes we can enable in it ;)
 78 2011-12-18 00:39:39 <sipa> or put it in OP_EVAL2 ;)
 79 2011-12-18 00:39:49 <luke-jr> why make a new one?
 80 2011-12-18 00:39:58 <luke-jr> it's not like there's any real rush for OP_EVAL (1)
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 87 2011-12-18 01:03:12 <jm9000> If a thin client downloads headers only, then it has no way to protect itself against a double spend. Would that be correct?
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 94 2011-12-18 01:12:14 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r0d40ca8f5361 / (7 files in 6 dirs): blockchain::store(..., handler), handler now returns block_info{status, depth} instead of only block_status http://tinyurl.com/ck85cql
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111 2011-12-18 02:37:17 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * racc11880f7ad / (21 files in 8 dirs): set_foo/get_foo -> set_foo/foo http://tinyurl.com/7zp9oz3
112 2011-12-18 02:37:18 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * rcd1c7aae1f4f / (5 files in 4 dirs): Removed postbind. Use boost asio strand->wrap instead. http://tinyurl.com/7p6ggmc
113 2011-12-18 02:42:09 <BlueMatt> anyone else feel like the last couple of comments on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/415 have been bots?
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117 2011-12-18 02:50:00 <diki> BlueMatt:they have avatars
118 2011-12-18 02:50:06 <diki> if it were a bot, why bother with them>
119 2011-12-18 02:50:07 <diki> ?
120 2011-12-18 02:50:59 <BlueMatt> no, its not a bot it clearly specifies bitcoin-specific stuff, but I cant help but think someone is heavily encouraging people to sign up for github accounts to post +1s there...
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123 2011-12-18 02:51:20 <rjk2> i get that feeling too
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129 2011-12-18 02:54:46 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: if so, no harm in that. I wish they'd comment more on the code than concept, though
130 2011-12-18 02:54:54 <luke-jr> ie, "I testing this, and it works"
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132 2011-12-18 02:56:35 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: not really, I just wanted to point it out, and I have a feeling the last couple may not even know how to compile code, yet alone what intricate details of bitcoin the changes might effect
133 2011-12-18 02:56:43 <rjk2> it just appears that they are trying to give it priority because it has anonymity enhancements
134 2011-12-18 02:57:14 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r150cd6282dfc / (6 files in 4 dirs): compacted -> compact http://tinyurl.com/bsycye5
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136 2011-12-18 02:57:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: even if so, if they tested, their input is helpful
137 2011-12-18 02:58:39 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thats my point, I highly doubt they did
138 2011-12-18 02:59:59 <[Tycho]> Anyone know who was the author of http://www.l0ss.net/images/PoolLuck30.png ?
139 2011-12-18 03:00:10 <diki> next diff is definitely good
140 2011-12-18 03:00:26 <diki> If it ever comes into existence that i
141 2011-12-18 03:00:30 <diki> is*
142 2011-12-18 03:00:34 <rjk2> [Tycho]: 404 not found
143 2011-12-18 03:00:45 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: author of a 404 page?
144 2011-12-18 03:00:47 <[Tycho]> rjk2: that's exactly why I'm asking.
145 2011-12-18 03:00:52 <rjk2> ah lol
146 2011-12-18 03:00:56 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: it's broken now.
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148 2011-12-18 03:01:36 <[Tycho]> It was so cool...
149 2011-12-18 03:03:04 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: someone who really wants it, like Bitbills or casacius, might make binaries and encourage people to test & report
150 2011-12-18 03:04:50 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ok, stop making a big deal of it, I just said it was probably either non-accounts by one person, or someone pimping something to people and pointing them to comment on github (which is the wrong spot, they should make a forum thread if they want to show public support)
151 2011-12-18 03:05:08 <BlueMatt> github is for devs to comment on its actual use not a ton of +1s all over the place that dont add anyting to the discussion
152 2011-12-18 03:05:18 <luke-jr> …
153 2011-12-18 03:05:22 <luke-jr> I already agreed.
154 2011-12-18 03:05:41 <luke-jr> except for the assumption that only devs can contribute helpfully
155 2011-12-18 03:05:52 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I didnt say that
156 2011-12-18 03:06:06 <BlueMatt> I said github is the place for devs, if you want to post a ton of +1's then do it on the forums
157 2011-12-18 03:06:19 <BlueMatt> also you not agreeing with my main point doesnt mean you "already agreed"...
158 2011-12-18 03:07:06 <luke-jr> assuming you main point is that those particular comments are spam, I agree
159 2011-12-18 03:07:38 <BlueMatt> anyway, its a minor gripe I was expressing, nothing worth discussing
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169 2011-12-18 03:37:10 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * rc5069b26e85f / (include/bitcoin/block.hpp src/block.cpp): bool operator==(const message::block block_a, const message::block& block_b); http://tinyurl.com/78yy38c
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239 2011-12-18 06:46:32 <denisx> is it possible than some pools hold found block for some minutes to have an advantage?
240 2011-12-18 06:46:36 <denisx> that
241 2011-12-18 06:46:49 <gmaxwell> denisx: not unless they have >50% of the total hashpower.
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243 2011-12-18 06:47:13 <gmaxwell> (and if they do, it's not an advantage they actually need)
244 2011-12-18 06:47:17 <denisx> why is it then that some miners flee my pool 2 minutes before I get the block?
245 2011-12-18 06:47:28 <denisx> and before it is listed on block explorer
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248 2011-12-18 06:47:42 <gmaxwell> Becuase they're trying to pool hop?
249 2011-12-18 06:47:53 <denisx> gmaxwell: sure they pool hop
250 2011-12-18 06:48:28 <denisx> it seems they do LP calls on all pools to know which one has found a block
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252 2011-12-18 06:49:01 <denisx> they left my pool on 6:31:20
253 2011-12-18 06:49:13 <denisx> but the block is listen as found von 6:33:04
254 2011-12-18 06:49:19 <gmaxwell> sure, one way to hop is to just stay on the proportional pool which has most recently found a block
255 2011-12-18 06:49:25 <denisx> and I have seen that several times now
256 2011-12-18 06:49:38 <gmaxwell> ah the network is far from instant..
257 2011-12-18 06:49:50 <gmaxwell> every node between your pool and the other pool has to validate the block
258 2011-12-18 06:50:10 <denisx> gmaxwell: but the time on block explorer is time from inside the block
259 2011-12-18 06:50:42 <gmaxwell> Doesn't mean the clock of the other pool is correct. e.g. due to ntime rolling eligius blocks are frequently an hour off or more.
260 2011-12-18 06:50:59 <denisx> which is ca. the time my pool made the LP call
261 2011-12-18 06:51:28 <denisx> so the pool who found the block didn't release it immediately I think
262 2011-12-18 06:51:30 <gmaxwell> I assume in that case the other pool found the block at 6:31:20, LPed, and the miners moved.
263 2011-12-18 06:51:39 <gmaxwell> I don't see why you're conclusing that.
264 2011-12-18 06:52:09 <gmaxwell> What happened is that the pool released it immediately but it took several minutes to make it to you because of each of the nodes between you and them taking time to fetch and validate the block.
265 2011-12-18 06:53:22 <denisx> I checked my LP times some time ago
266 2011-12-18 06:53:29 <denisx> I never was 2min behind
267 2011-12-18 06:53:33 <denisx> it never..
268 2011-12-18 06:53:48 <denisx> more like some seconds
269 2011-12-18 06:54:49 <denisx> Iam not sure about this, but I will keep an eye on it
270 2011-12-18 06:55:54 <gmaxwell> At 6:31:20 the pool found the block, they announce, and long poll.. then it goes to another node, then another, then another, then you. Finally, you long poll. How is this series of events inconsistent with your data?
271 2011-12-18 06:56:46 <denisx> gmaxwell: thats the way it works, right. but very fast
272 2011-12-18 06:57:26 <denisx> at some time I compared my LP calls with btcguild
273 2011-12-18 06:57:38 <gmaxwell> I don't know why you believe it should be very fast. It can easily take a number of seconds to transfer and validate a block (esp one with many transactions
274 2011-12-18 06:57:39 <denisx> most of the time the LP call was fired the same second
275 2011-12-18 06:58:15 <gmaxwell> sure, so the block reached btcguild and you at the same time, but it still could have taken a long time absolutely.
276 2011-12-18 06:58:52 <gmaxwell> In any case, another pool doesn't gain any advantage by delaying, regardless.— they lose, in fact, since if someone else announces first, people will be working on extending that block instead.
277 2011-12-18 07:00:05 <denisx> gmaxwell: I hope your right!
278 2011-12-18 07:02:06 <denisx> [2011-12-18 06:59:20.244074] USR1 signal received, flushing LP waiters
279 2011-12-18 07:02:31 <denisx> lets see how fast it was this time
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281 2011-12-18 07:04:28 <denisx> hmm, that was two blocks
282 2011-12-18 07:04:38 <denisx> don't know which one it was
283 2011-12-18 07:06:08 <denisx> gmaxwell: or maybe it is a really bad pool which has to answer thousands of LP calls after it found the block and is totally overloaded with that
284 2011-12-18 07:07:00 <gmaxwell> or one with poor connectivity that only propagates the block very slowly.
285 2011-12-18 07:10:08 <EvanR> ive been syncing to network all day
286 2011-12-18 07:13:35 EvanR-pissed has joined
287 2011-12-18 07:13:48 <EvanR-pissed> checking on it. 97% -_-
288 2011-12-18 07:16:53 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh hi this discussion again
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290 2011-12-18 07:30:20 <denisx> gmaxwell: but if my LP calls would be 1min late on average, I would have 10% invalids on average
291 2011-12-18 07:30:48 <denisx> but I had never any invalid block and found close to 100
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296 2011-12-18 07:43:21 <denisx> I still need to add netinet.h and sys/socket.h to protocol.cpp to build on freebsd
297 2011-12-18 07:44:09 <[Tycho]> Do we need to apply this already ? https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/commit/c56e4943a944923d0d65344cdc16f132ccbed55a
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299 2011-12-18 07:50:57 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I don't think so. Pools don't care about how users handle addresses.
300 2011-12-18 07:51:13 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: there's no version information in the blocks/transactions themselves
301 2011-12-18 07:52:28 <[Tycho]> What's the purpose of #include <numeric> here ? https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/commit/f62c6087a2681f568c18f2db05147f227dd06d5b#L12L-1
302 2011-12-18 07:54:30 <luke-jr> dunno, someone smack Gavin for further abusing headers.h
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360 2011-12-18 09:01:16 <CIA-100> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r2beed30 / (lib/connection.js lib/schema/transaction.js): Cache transaction buffer to eliminate need for re-serialization. (+5 more commits...) - http://git.io/6MoaSA https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/2beed300067fe62591e3cfa15e1f0bb95cb23c72
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365 2011-12-18 09:21:02 <[Tycho]> Why CTransaction's ToString() uses GetHash().ToString() instead if GetHash().GetHex() ?
366 2011-12-18 09:40:27 RazielZ has joined
367 2011-12-18 09:40:34 <CIA-100> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r5cdb98d / (README.md package.json): Updated README and package.json for 0.2. - http://git.io/6JzL3g https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/5cdb98da76709cedcc682a2c7a8fbf58ff367706
368 2011-12-18 09:43:06 <[Tycho]> Can I add normal inputs to generation TX ?
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372 2011-12-18 10:08:45 <sipa> [Tycho]: no
373 2011-12-18 10:09:25 <[Tycho]> What exactly stops this ?
374 2011-12-18 10:10:08 <[Tycho]> I see that vtx[0] output is limited, but that's not enough, somewhere should be something else...
375 2011-12-18 10:11:20 <sipa> a transaction with >1 txin is not considered a coinbase
376 2011-12-18 10:11:50 <[Tycho]> Yes, I see this in "IsCoinbase".
377 2011-12-18 10:11:58 <[Tycho]> Where does it checks it ?
378 2011-12-18 10:12:41 <[Tycho]> And why generation tx can only have 1 input ?
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420 2011-12-18 12:31:04 <[Tycho]> "4 space indenting, no tabs" - why ?
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425 2011-12-18 12:36:20 <sipa> [Tycho]: convention
426 2011-12-18 12:36:22 wasabi2 has joined
427 2011-12-18 12:36:43 <sipa> it's not better or worse than other rules, but the style should be consistent
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429 2011-12-18 12:38:11 <[Tycho]> Tabs are so cool...
430 2011-12-18 12:39:33 <sipa> de gustibus et coloribus
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435 2011-12-18 12:47:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: will you mail to the ml about the table you made?
436 2011-12-18 12:47:15 <sipa> it seems a good argument in favor of key recovery support
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439 2011-12-18 12:58:31 <[Tycho]> sipa, why generation tx can only have 1 input ?
440 2011-12-18 12:58:52 <sipa> no idea, because Satoshi didn't see a reason to allow more?
441 2011-12-18 13:06:30 <Eliel> allowing for more inputs would allow pools that pay through generation (p2pool and eligius at the moment I guess) to pay entirely through generation transaction.
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444 2011-12-18 13:15:29 <kinlo> why do you need inputs on a generation in the first place?
445 2011-12-18 13:15:49 <kinlo> generation is "creating" bitcoins, it does not require any input to take from
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447 2011-12-18 13:19:54 <sipa> Eliel: and you would consider that a good or a bad thing?
448 2011-12-18 13:21:19 <Eliel> sipa: good
449 2011-12-18 13:21:29 <OneFixt> Eliel: bitpenny also pays through generation
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451 2011-12-18 13:22:26 <Eliel> sipa: ideally, a pool wouldn't need to hold bitcoins at all.
452 2011-12-18 13:22:37 <Eliel> but I'm not sure how to achieve that.
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467 2011-12-18 14:16:40 <[Tycho]> kinlo: to make things more universal.
468 2011-12-18 14:17:39 <[Tycho]> Of course I'm not going to pay through generation, but opening opportunities are great.
469 2011-12-18 14:18:00 <kinlo> well, I don't really see why you should pay trough generation
470 2011-12-18 14:18:14 <kinlo> I can understand it for p2pool
471 2011-12-18 14:18:22 <kinlo> I can't for other pools
472 2011-12-18 14:18:38 <[Tycho]> May be this way Eligius "avoids" keeping funds.
473 2011-12-18 14:18:47 <[Tycho]> But otherwise it's bad practice.
474 2011-12-18 14:18:56 <kinlo> do you think eligius avoids keeping funds?
475 2011-12-18 14:19:02 <[Tycho]> No.
476 2011-12-18 14:19:23 <kinlo> they have  SMPP or something
477 2011-12-18 14:19:37 <[Tycho]> Or makes people think that their coins are better because they are uncirculated :)
478 2011-12-18 14:19:40 <kinlo> in other words, if their luck is too high, they end up with funds they need to pay out.
479 2011-12-18 14:19:49 <kinlo> ewll
480 2011-12-18 14:20:11 <kinlo> you will be surprised how easy it is to abuse the general stupidity of people :)
481 2011-12-18 14:20:26 <kinlo> so I can certainly understand that.
482 2011-12-18 14:20:35 <[Tycho]> Paying via generation is bad because this won't allow people to use those funds for 20 hours.
483 2011-12-18 14:20:50 <kinlo> well
484 2011-12-18 14:20:56 <[Tycho]> But they see those funds in their client and worry less :)
485 2011-12-18 14:21:14 <kinlo> not only that, the client doesn't support it, you can't see to which address it has been payed out
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487 2011-12-18 14:21:26 <kinlo> if 2 pools would do it, you couldn't see who payed you
488 2011-12-18 14:21:27 <[Tycho]> May be he made it to avoid "unconfirmed" balances.
489 2011-12-18 14:21:42 <kinlo> also
490 2011-12-18 14:21:53 <kinlo> add the fact that you have to wait even longer
491 2011-12-18 14:22:06 <[Tycho]> 120 instead of 101
492 2011-12-18 14:22:09 <kinlo> if I submit a share, then the payout for that share can't be in the current block
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494 2011-12-18 14:22:31 <kinlo> because the generation transaction can already be sent to another user in getwork
495 2011-12-18 14:22:49 <kinlo> so basicly, you even need to wait longer
496 2011-12-18 14:23:45 <kinlo> no, I won't be using generation for general payouts...
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501 2011-12-18 14:37:12 <SomeoneWeird> What's the basic APACHE 2 license entail?
502 2011-12-18 14:37:14 <luke-jr> [09:16:47] <[Tycho]> But otherwise it's bad practice. <-- nonsense
503 2011-12-18 14:38:14 <luke-jr> [09:18:34] <[Tycho]> Paying via generation is bad because this won't allow people to use those funds for 20 hours. <-- NOT paying by generation requires the pool to hold funds for 20 hours BEFORE sending, OR charge an exhorbitant fee to cover the cost of orphans
504 2011-12-18 14:38:35 <luke-jr> [09:19:14] <kinlo> not only that, the client doesn't support it, you can't see to which address it has been payed out <-- bug in your client; fix it
505 2011-12-18 14:38:55 <kinlo> luke-jr: there is only 1 official client...
506 2011-12-18 14:39:05 <luke-jr> kinlo: there is ZERO official clients
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508 2011-12-18 14:39:21 <luke-jr> kinlo: official implies centralization, which is the exact opposite of the point
509 2011-12-18 14:39:31 <kinlo> luke-jr: so you're saying that all your users are not doing it correctly coz they don't fix that bug?
510 2011-12-18 14:39:52 <kinlo> well, let's not go debating about semantics, you know there is one main client...
511 2011-12-18 14:39:55 <luke-jr> kinlo: I don't know/care how my users deal with their earnings.
512 2011-12-18 14:40:01 <luke-jr> kinlo: that's a bug too.
513 2011-12-18 14:40:15 <luke-jr> there needs to be a larger client ecosystem to secure the network better.
514 2011-12-18 14:40:50 <luke-jr> which is why I am willing to help anyone who wants to take over maintaining wxBitcoin get setup for doing so
515 2011-12-18 14:40:55 <luke-jr> despite hating wx :p
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518 2011-12-18 14:41:26 <kinlo> wxbitcoin is just the gui part, that doesn't change the important part
519 2011-12-18 14:41:38 <kinlo> which is the core protocol implementation
520 2011-12-18 14:42:32 <luke-jr> wxBitcoin is a client. having someone besides the bitcoind team responsible for it is another security checkpoint.
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540 2011-12-18 15:51:52 <[Tycho]> Why CTransaction's ToString() uses GetHash().ToString() instead if GetHash().GetHex() ?
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570 2011-12-18 17:34:30 <BlueMatt> ;;sen sipa
571 2011-12-18 17:34:30 <gribble> Error: "sen" is not a valid command.
572 2011-12-18 17:34:34 <BlueMatt> ;;seen sipa
573 2011-12-18 17:34:35 <gribble> sipa was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 hours, 14 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <sipa> Eliel: and you would consider that a good or a bad thing?
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583 2011-12-18 18:11:24 <[Tycho]> I wonder why some unconfirmed TXes are visible only to some nodes.
584 2011-12-18 18:12:04 <diki> I also wonder of many things
585 2011-12-18 18:12:15 <diki> such as, why is it so hard to compile under windows
586 2011-12-18 18:12:27 <diki> Sadly, an answer does not exist to that question
587 2011-12-18 18:12:53 <[Tycho]> This one is visible to bitcoincharts, but not visible to my nodes and to blockchain.info's monitor: http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/#c1c028e4f99421c735270b291ffde6d14af0732b1ee3b97ba1505f410f56610a
588 2011-12-18 18:13:05 <[Tycho]> (no wonder it missed two blocks already)
589 2011-12-18 18:13:24 <[Tycho]> Why it's not relayed ? It even has fees.
590 2011-12-18 18:13:50 <sipa> maybe some 0.3.24 nodes in between that require higher fees?
591 2011-12-18 18:15:43 <[Tycho]> Should be more multipath, I think.
592 2011-12-18 18:15:54 <[Tycho]> Also it may be in free zone.
593 2011-12-18 18:15:57 <gmaxwell> there are a lot of 0.3.24 nodes still.
594 2011-12-18 18:16:15 <[Tycho]> Many free TXes got around, but not this one, for example.
595 2011-12-18 18:16:19 <gmaxwell> There are also a fair number of nodes that don't appear to relay transactions.
596 2011-12-18 18:17:55 <BlueMatt> 0.3.24 is still the most popular connection-accepting version
597 2011-12-18 18:18:01 <BlueMatt> (closely followed by 0.4 though)
598 2011-12-18 18:19:10 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
599 2011-12-18 18:19:58 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think that may partially be due to 0.4 nodes being more full because they lack the flood protection bug.
600 2011-12-18 18:20:16 <BlueMatt> no, that was lacking in .24 too
601 2011-12-18 18:20:24 <BlueMatt> it existed in .23
602 2011-12-18 18:20:33 <gmaxwell> oh dur. brain rot.
603 2011-12-18 18:20:34 <BlueMatt> (hence why the dnsseed only includes >=.24 nodes)
604 2011-12-18 18:21:04 <gmaxwell> the current fee rules where also there in .24 too.
605 2011-12-18 18:22:39 <[Tycho]> Hmm, TX number is completely different at different nodes.
606 2011-12-18 18:23:18 <[Tycho]> Ops, not so completely, blockchain.info is just a bit messed up :)
607 2011-12-18 18:23:22 <gmaxwell> Then the transaction was either doublespent or corrupted in lfight.
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611 2011-12-18 18:29:54 <[Tycho]> Poor TX
612 2011-12-18 18:30:17 <sipa> its day of glory will come!
613 2011-12-18 18:30:42 * [Tycho] finally set up a new monitoring node :)
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617 2011-12-18 18:38:24 <Eliel> monitoring? what does it monitor?
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620 2011-12-18 18:40:54 <roconnor_> Is there any way to give a serialized transaction block to the receiver of the transaction and ask her to go post it to the mining network? ... If this question makes any sese.
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622 2011-12-18 18:41:21 <[Tycho]> Eliel: the network.
623 2011-12-18 18:41:45 <sipa> roconnor: IP transactions worked that way
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625 2011-12-18 18:42:11 <roconnor> sipa: are IP transaction still supported in the client?
626 2011-12-18 18:42:13 <sipa> roconnor: and i think many others should too, but that's not how works right now
627 2011-12-18 18:42:16 <sipa> no
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630 2011-12-18 18:42:56 <sipa> roconnor: here's a proposal in that line that i did some time ago: https://gist.github.com/1237788
631 2011-12-18 18:42:58 <roconnor> It would be nice to have a seriealized transaction format that you can just paste into a client.
632 2011-12-18 18:43:43 <[Tycho]> Some people tried to make online sites for TX releasing :)
633 2011-12-18 18:43:53 <roconnor> what was insecure about IP transactions?
634 2011-12-18 18:43:57 <[Tycho]> But it's not easy to create it with bare hands.
635 2011-12-18 18:44:01 <[Tycho]> roconnor: MitM
636 2011-12-18 18:44:38 <sipa> IP transactions are "Hello IP <...>, which txout script do I use to pay you?"
637 2011-12-18 18:44:38 <[Tycho]> I'll make something about TX creation too, because it's not so easy to create strange ones :)
638 2011-12-18 18:44:48 <roconnor> [Tycho]: MitM can't steal coins, just deny them, right?
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641 2011-12-18 18:45:13 <[Tycho]> No, it can steal.
642 2011-12-18 18:45:14 <sipa> roconnor: the real problem is just that you don't know who you're talking to
643 2011-12-18 18:45:16 <gmaxwell> roconnor: there is also a fun anti-privacy attack.. just pay 1e-8 btc to every IP you find running bitcoin a couple times a day.. then see where they get spent and you learn the IPs of lots of addresses.
644 2011-12-18 18:45:24 <sipa> that's not MitM, that's just spoofing
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646 2011-12-18 18:46:09 <roconnor> So I'm imagining a bitcoin wallet service
647 2011-12-18 18:46:23 <roconnor> somebody wants to withdraaw from their account
648 2011-12-18 18:47:04 <roconnor> It kinda feels like the client should be the one who has the vested interest in finding miners and distributing the transaction to whoever
649 2011-12-18 18:47:29 <sipa> absolutely
650 2011-12-18 18:47:35 <roconnor> so the wallet server should provide the transaction to the client who can take it and do whatever to get it mined.
651 2011-12-18 18:47:42 <sipa> it's always the receiver who cares about getting it accepted
652 2011-12-18 18:48:34 <roconnor> it seems like you should download some sort of mime-encoede base 64 whatever blob of data that can be pasted/piped/whatever into the users client.
653 2011-12-18 18:48:51 <sipa> now, for a e-wallet, i'm not so sure
654 2011-12-18 18:49:11 <sipa> as getting payments to you accepted can be part of the service you're as a customer expect from the wallet service
655 2011-12-18 18:49:20 <roconnor> er
656 2011-12-18 18:49:26 <roconnor> I guess I mean bank rather than wallet
657 2011-12-18 18:49:29 <sipa> but in the case of merchant website, and you want as a customer pay them
658 2011-12-18 18:49:34 <Eliel> would a client with just block headers and merkle trees be able to do full validation if the protocol is changed so that new transactions that are broadcast include their input transactions too in the broadcast?
659 2011-12-18 18:49:50 <sipa> Eliel: how many levels?
660 2011-12-18 18:50:38 <Eliel> wouldn't one level be enough? provided they keep a record of which transaction hashes are spent.
661 2011-12-18 18:51:16 <sipa> if you have only block headers, you need the merkle tree of each tx, to be sure it exists
662 2011-12-18 18:51:30 <sipa> and there is no way one can prove to you that it wasn't already spent
663 2011-12-18 18:51:53 <sipa> from the point where you yourself keep information about which is spent or not, you're already far into becoming a full node yourself
664 2011-12-18 18:51:57 <Eliel> yes, hence the record of which txouts are spent.
665 2011-12-18 18:52:35 <Eliel> well mostly, this would reduce storage requirements at the expense of increasing bandwidth requirements.
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667 2011-12-18 18:52:59 <sipa> indeed, it's one of the possible levels between a full node and a lightweight one
668 2011-12-18 18:53:26 <sipa> (by full node, i mean a node that can provide block chain information to the rest of the network, i.e. NODE_NETWORK)
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670 2011-12-18 18:54:52 <sipa> i guess you'll need to include all input transactions and their inputs, up to the point where you have a tree where each leaf is in the block chain
671 2011-12-18 18:55:15 <sipa> or expect the verifying node to request those tx's itself from the network - causing further slowdown
672 2011-12-18 18:55:41 <Eliel> why is one level of inputs enough?
673 2011-12-18 18:55:45 <Eliel> ... why is not
674 2011-12-18 18:55:56 <sipa> what if its input is not in the block chain?
675 2011-12-18 18:56:39 <Eliel> well, then it's hash is not part of the merkle trees and needs to be included I suppose.
676 2011-12-18 18:56:59 <Eliel> but of inputs in the block chain, would more than one level be needed for verification?
677 2011-12-18 18:57:07 <sipa> no, i don't think so
678 2011-12-18 19:07:18 <EvanR-pissed> success
679 2011-12-18 19:07:34 <EvanR-pissed> i recovered
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