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   9 2011-12-19 00:12:24 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r59ef366583ce /libbitcoin.pc.in: Remove -lcppdb from pkg-config in file. http://tinyurl.com/7cv44xe
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  58 2011-12-19 02:06:28 <ByteCoin> ping sipa
  59 2011-12-19 02:07:49 <ByteCoin> ;;seen spia
  60 2011-12-19 02:07:49 <gribble> I have not seen spia.
  61 2011-12-19 02:07:56 <ByteCoin> ;;seen sipa
  62 2011-12-19 02:07:57 <gribble> sipa was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 7 hours, 10 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <sipa> no, i don't think so
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  96 2011-12-19 04:06:37 <DiabloD3> holy fuck
  97 2011-12-19 04:06:57 <DiabloD3> http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/north-korea-supreme-leader-kim-jong-il-died-15185454#.Tu63Y-hg-9w
  98 2011-12-19 04:07:50 underscor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  99 2011-12-19 04:07:51 <luke-jr> …
 100 2011-12-19 04:08:08 underscor has joined
 101 2011-12-19 04:09:31 <DiabloD3> luke-jr: WHERES YOUR GOD NOW, BIATCH?!
 102 2011-12-19 04:09:40 <luke-jr> same place He always is.
 103 2011-12-19 04:09:55 <DiabloD3> dude, if Obama can complete his set of world terrorist leaders by nuking Iran
 104 2011-12-19 04:10:00 <DiabloD3> hes President FOREVER
 105 2011-12-19 04:10:38 <luke-jr> not that simple
 106 2011-12-19 04:11:05 <DiabloD3> /bin/laden AND lil kim?
 107 2011-12-19 04:11:13 <DiabloD3> thats enough for canonization
 108 2011-12-19 04:11:16 <cjdelisle> erm I doubt obama will get credit for kim il's death, I mean if he was old age then maybe he would
 109 2011-12-19 04:11:16 <luke-jr> what happens when Iran takes out the GPS sats?
 110 2011-12-19 04:11:18 <DiabloD3> saint bama
 111 2011-12-19 04:11:43 <cjdelisle> Yes We Cancer
 112 2011-12-19 04:11:43 <luke-jr> …
 113 2011-12-19 04:11:44 <DiabloD3> luke-jr: we didnt have GPS in WWII, I doubt we need it now.
 114 2011-12-19 04:11:49 <luke-jr> Obama shouldn't get credit for Laden either
 115 2011-12-19 04:11:53 <DiabloD3> cjdelisle: ... you know better.
 116 2011-12-19 04:11:57 <luke-jr> DiabloD3: in WWII, someone flew the bomb
 117 2011-12-19 04:12:06 <DiabloD3> luke-jr: ALL THE WAY DOWN, YEEEHAWHH
 118 2011-12-19 04:12:32 <DiabloD3> fuck I want to watch that movie now
 119 2011-12-19 04:12:34 <DiabloD3> goddamnit luke
 120 2011-12-19 04:12:35 <luke-jr> are there any more human-delivery nukes?
 121 2011-12-19 04:12:56 <DiabloD3> You cant fight in here, this is a war room!
 122 2011-12-19 04:13:02 <cjdelisle> hehe
 123 2011-12-19 04:13:26 <DiabloD3> ;;ticker
 124 2011-12-19 04:13:27 <gribble> Best bid: 3.21, Best ask: 3.2101, Bid-ask spread: 0.0001, Last trade: 3.21, 24 hour volume: 9769, 24 hour low: 3.1751, 24 hour high: 3.2189
 125 2011-12-19 04:13:46 <cjdelisle> Chappelle's black bush was epic
 126 2011-12-19 04:13:46 <DiabloD3> ;;calc 3.21 * 2.81
 127 2011-12-19 04:13:47 <gribble> 9.0201
 128 2011-12-19 04:13:56 <cjdelisle> o/t I know
 129 2011-12-19 04:20:31 RobinPKR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 131 2011-12-19 04:27:04 * roconnor is a bit bothered by how old coins are more valuable than new coins
 132 2011-12-19 04:27:42 <[Tycho]> I wonder how much would cost a coin from block 0 or 1 :)
 133 2011-12-19 04:28:21 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 134 2011-12-19 04:28:53 <roconnor> Tycale_: probably free transaction
 135 2011-12-19 04:28:55 <roconnor> er
 136 2011-12-19 04:29:02 <roconnor> [Tycho]:
 137 2011-12-19 04:30:07 * [Tycho] added TX queue info to the stats page :)
 138 2011-12-19 04:31:59 <DiabloD3> yeah, it should end being nearly free if not absolutely free
 139 2011-12-19 04:32:29 <[Tycho]> Normal transactions are free anyway.
 140 2011-12-19 04:32:48 <roconnor> [Tycho]: is that so?
 141 2011-12-19 04:32:53 <[Tycho]> Yes.
 142 2011-12-19 04:33:01 <DiabloD3> "By using a subdimensional vector space useless hyperspace will be destroyed in the process."
 143 2011-12-19 04:33:03 <roconnor> I don't understand the transaction fee rules
 144 2011-12-19 04:33:09 <roconnor> the wiki page is very confusing
 145 2011-12-19 04:33:41 <DiabloD3> roconnor: it uses a pretty simple "whore" formula
 146 2011-12-19 04:33:46 <DiabloD3> the more of a whore you are, the more you pay.
 147 2011-12-19 04:34:00 <[Tycho]> Well, there are some limits when it's close to the desired maximum block size.
 148 2011-12-19 04:34:17 <roconnor> [Tycho]: I'm more concerend about getting transactions relayed
 149 2011-12-19 04:34:26 <[Tycho]> Oh, relayed...
 150 2011-12-19 04:34:37 <[Tycho]> I need to find a solution for that.
 151 2011-12-19 04:34:49 <roconnor> [Tycho]: you and everyone else
 152 2011-12-19 04:34:51 <[Tycho]> Also, there is luke-jr's node for relaying.
 153 2011-12-19 04:34:58 <roconnor> well that is my current thinking
 154 2011-12-19 04:35:09 <roconnor> send everything to Eligius
 155 2011-12-19 04:35:19 <roconnor> but that hardly seems scalable
 156 2011-12-19 04:35:19 <[Tycho]> I'm mining most of the network's free TXes.
 157 2011-12-19 04:35:52 <[Tycho]> I wonder how fees will surge if I'll stop this :)
 158 2011-12-19 04:36:16 bushing has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me)
 159 2011-12-19 04:36:28 <roconnor> [Tycho]: implement a 1 satoshi fee
 160 2011-12-19 04:36:35 <[Tycho]> Why ?
 161 2011-12-19 04:36:46 <[Tycho]> 1 satoshi won't make any profit for me.
 162 2011-12-19 04:37:14 <[Tycho]> Currently my rules are 0.01 or more BTC to be considered non-free.
 163 2011-12-19 04:38:53 <roconnor> sounds arbitrary
 164 2011-12-19 04:39:26 <[Tycho]> Why ? 1 bitcent is a nice number.
 165 2011-12-19 04:39:34 <DiabloD3> rcorreia: its not
 166 2011-12-19 04:40:03 <DiabloD3> rcorreia: also, bitcoin tends to try to produce optimum fee raping on blocks when space is contested
 167 2011-12-19 04:40:21 <DiabloD3> ie, the more the tx is worth, the more likely it will make it into the block if the block is full
 168 2011-12-19 04:41:36 <vsrinivas> right. among other fields use to determine this, the value of the tx's outputs and the time they're been unspent iirc are used.
 169 2011-12-19 04:42:15 Ramokk has joined
 170 2011-12-19 04:42:17 <DiabloD3> yeah, the formula last time I saw it is trying to be fair as possible
 171 2011-12-19 04:44:33 Ramokk has quit (Client Quit)
 172 2011-12-19 04:46:04 <[Tycho]> Wow, a new proportional pool opened :) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54970.msg0#new
 173 2011-12-19 04:46:16 <[Tycho]> I wonder how long it will take for hoppers to kill it.
 174 2011-12-19 04:47:26 Ramokk has joined
 175 2011-12-19 04:48:18 <SomeoneWeird> LOL their site looks pretty shit
 176 2011-12-19 04:48:56 <DiabloD3> SomeoneWeird: take a look at eligius's lately?
 177 2011-12-19 04:49:40 <rjk2> "Welcome to Simplecoin.us" wat
 178 2011-12-19 04:50:13 <rjk2> with the actual link pointing to tntmining
 179 2011-12-19 04:51:09 <DiabloD3> Im not seeing it
 180 2011-12-19 04:51:42 <rjk2> on the stats page
 181 2011-12-19 04:51:50 <[Tycho]> Looks a bit like 50BTC pool.
 182 2011-12-19 04:52:03 <SomeoneWeird> not really why DiabloD3
 183 2011-12-19 04:52:26 <DiabloD3> SomeoneWeird: ooglay
 184 2011-12-19 04:52:32 <SomeoneWeird> ahah
 185 2011-12-19 04:52:36 <DiabloD3> rjk2: hrm, I should lock the thread.
 186 2011-12-19 04:53:02 <rjk2> it looks like a default template that someone forgot to mod
 187 2011-12-19 04:53:16 <[Tycho]> http://pool.mkalinin.ru/
 188 2011-12-19 04:53:58 <[Tycho]> Looks similar to me.
 189 2011-12-19 04:54:25 <rjk2> yeah looks like the same software
 190 2011-12-19 04:54:30 <rjk2> must be open source
 191 2011-12-19 04:54:36 <rjk2> or something
 192 2011-12-19 04:55:12 <[Tycho]> Open source forces people to use same design, how disappoiting...
 193 2011-12-19 04:55:45 <rjk2> or they are lazy
 194 2011-12-19 04:56:11 <SomeoneWeird> it is
 195 2011-12-19 04:56:18 <[Tycho]> One year ago it would take some efforts to make a new pool.
 196 2011-12-19 04:56:19 <SomeoneWeird> it's simplecoin
 197 2011-12-19 04:56:28 <[Tycho]> Now you need just a couple of minutes :)
 198 2011-12-19 04:56:33 <rjk2> simplecoin is a pool software?
 199 2011-12-19 04:56:37 <SomeoneWeird> yes
 200 2011-12-19 04:56:38 <SomeoneWeird> iirc
 201 2011-12-19 04:56:46 <rjk2> oh ok
 202 2011-12-19 04:56:54 <SomeoneWeird> yep, the pools that have custom interfaces are going to do better than the ones using other one
 203 2011-12-19 04:56:55 <SomeoneWeird> s
 204 2011-12-19 04:59:45 <[Tycho]> I'm mostly talking about core.
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 218 2011-12-19 06:02:59 <forrestv> BlueMattBot, what did you mean by "-keepnode=localhost" in your comment on my pull request?
 219 2011-12-19 06:02:59 <BlueMattBot> forrestv did you mean me? Unknown command 'what'
 220 2011-12-19 06:02:59 <BlueMattBot> Use 'BlueMattBot: DONT SPAM the Chan help' to get help!
 221 2011-12-19 06:03:04 <forrestv> hm
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 228 2011-12-19 06:41:43 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 229 2011-12-19 06:53:59 <luke-jr> DONT SPAM the Chan version
 230 2011-12-19 06:54:03 <luke-jr> DONT SPAM the Chan help
 231 2011-12-19 06:54:05 <luke-jr> hmm
 232 2011-12-19 06:54:08 <luke-jr> <.<
 233 2011-12-19 06:54:11 <luke-jr> BlueMattBot: DONT SPAM the Chan help
 234 2011-12-19 06:54:12 <BlueMattBot> Available commands:
 235 2011-12-19 06:54:12 <BlueMattBot> abort <job> - specify which job to abort
 236 2011-12-19 06:54:13 <BlueMattBot> alias [<alias> [<command>]] - defines a new alias, deletes one or lists all existing aliases
 237 2011-12-19 06:54:13 <BlueMattBot> botsnack [<snack>] - om nom nom
 238 2011-12-19 06:54:14 <BlueMattBot> build <job> [now|<delay>[s|m|h]] [<parameterkey>=<value>]* - schedule a job build, with standard, custom or no quiet period
 239 2011-12-19 06:54:15 <BlueMattBot> cb - list jobs which are currently in progress
 240 2011-12-19 06:54:15 <BlueMattBot> comment <job> <build-#> <comment> - adds a description to a build
 241 2011-12-19 06:54:15 <BlueMattBot> currentlyBuilding - list jobs which are currently in progress
 242 2011-12-19 06:54:16 <BlueMattBot> h [<job>|-v <view>] - show the health of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 243 2011-12-19 06:54:17 <BlueMattBot> health [<job>|-v <view>] - show the health of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 244 2011-12-19 06:54:17 <luke-jr> omg
 245 2011-12-19 06:54:17 <BlueMattBot> jobs [<job>|-v <view>] - show the status of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 246 2011-12-19 06:54:17 <BlueMattBot> q - show the state of the build queue
 247 2011-12-19 06:54:18 <BlueMattBot> queue - show the state of the build queue
 248 2011-12-19 06:54:18 <copumpkin> lol
 249 2011-12-19 06:54:19 <BlueMattBot> s [<job>|-v <view>] - show the status of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 250 2011-12-19 06:54:19 <BlueMattBot> schedule <job> [now|<delay>[s|m|h]] [<parameterkey>=<value>]* - schedule a job build, with standard, custom or no quiet period
 251 2011-12-19 06:54:20 <BlueMattBot> status [<job>|-v <view>] - show the status of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 252 2011-12-19 06:54:20 <BlueMattBot> testresult [<job>|-v <view>] - show the test results of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 253 2011-12-19 06:54:21 <BlueMattBot> userstat <username> - prints information about a Jenkins user
 254 2011-12-19 06:54:21 <copumpkin> wtf
 255 2011-12-19 06:54:24 <luke-jr> ^
 256 2011-12-19 06:54:57 <luke-jr> botsnack, but no botpunish? -.-
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 266 2011-12-19 07:57:13 <CIA-100> bitcoin: mtve broken * r874b41..acdf31 bitcoin-pl/ (12 files in 2 dirs): (14 commits) http://tinyurl.com/83wnxhl
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 324 2011-12-19 11:36:44 <[Tycho]> Is there any name for value opposite to hash ?
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 328 2011-12-19 11:52:33 <Mqrius> plaintext?
 329 2011-12-19 11:55:07 <[Tycho]> No.
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 332 2011-12-19 11:57:28 <[Tycho]> For example, 98c1eb4ee93476743763878fcb96a25fbc9a175074d64004779ecb5242f645e6 is a sha256 hash of "word".
 333 2011-12-19 11:57:46 <[Tycho]> And "word" is a ... (what?) of 98c1eb4ee93476743763878fcb96a25fbc9a175074d64004779ecb5242f645e6 ?
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 335 2011-12-19 12:06:08 <epscy> input?
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 344 2011-12-19 12:16:37 <Mqrius> I still say plaintext, in most cases. 98c1eb4ee93476743763878fcb96a25fbc9a175074d64004779ecb5242f645e6 is the hash of "word", while "word" is the plaintext of 98c1eb4ee93476743763878fcb96a25fbc9a175074d64004779ecb5242f645e6.
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 348 2011-12-19 12:31:45 <lianj> but plaintext suggests plaintext :P
 349 2011-12-19 12:34:21 <Mqrius> lianj: Yes, well, this name for the reverse-hash is only valid where the source is something plaintext. It would be strange to use it for the elliptic curve point for example. (The "plaintext" of a bitcoin address)
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 472 2011-12-19 14:14:16 <[Tycho]> What patch do CBase58Data comes from ?
 473 2011-12-19 14:20:27 <knotwork> re reverse hash: reverse hash seems sensible enough term. But maybe you could try calling it the hashed or the hashee
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 489 2011-12-19 15:12:12 <CIA-100> bitcoin: mtve broken * rb8c4f9176111 bitcoin-pl/ (main.pm script.pm): fix for http://blockexplorer.com/t/6pBzfRAnxY http://tinyurl.com/75o75vp
 490 2011-12-19 15:12:13 <CIA-100> bitcoin: mtve broken * rdb37f1d1760d bitcoin-pl/main.pm: correct fix for prev commit http://tinyurl.com/7yeom6u
 491 2011-12-19 15:13:20 AStove has quit ()
 492 2011-12-19 15:14:40 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr master * r6477348 / src/net.cpp : Add my DNS seed domain - http://git.io/HS5dzg https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/647734881c5c4a27357e289733fe02900cf1a70c
 493 2011-12-19 15:14:40 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rcd2b883 / src/net.cpp : Merge pull request #709 from luke-jr/newdnsseeds ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/cd2b8832fdb087e740e8d6da69c75f46d69b52d2
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 501 2011-12-19 15:21:44 <sipa> [Tycho]_: key import/export
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 506 2011-12-19 15:23:54 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ping
 507 2011-12-19 15:27:25 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rf8ded58 / (12 files in 2 dirs): Implement BIP 14 : separate protocol version from client version - http://git.io/ZwrWoQ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/f8ded588a2f78ac2767a60c716a7d15c273b4fc7
 508 2011-12-19 15:27:26 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r1f3bc1c / (12 files in 2 dirs): Merge pull request #707 from gavinandresen/BIP14 ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/1f3bc1c2399fb53eb1b2222194332aca07a31a36
 509 2011-12-19 15:28:26 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rfc90967 / (src/qt/bitcoingui.cpp src/qt/bitcoingui.h): Merge pull request #699 from laanwj/about_qt ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/fc90967876a0b8c762cba4a9f40a80db7a8b0432
 510 2011-12-19 15:29:35 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r99a289f / (16 files in 2 dirs): Merge pull request #574 from sipa/dumpprivkey ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/99a289f531e9dc42aa81ea32ff84b807a46b6a9c
 511 2011-12-19 15:32:49 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'm getting a missing symbol linking with the merged dumpprivkey
 512 2011-12-19 15:33:11 <sipa> :o
 513 2011-12-19 15:33:27 <sipa> i built it a few days ago
 514 2011-12-19 15:33:33 iocor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 515 2011-12-19 15:34:00 <gavinandresen> sipa: https://gist.github.com/1497693
 516 2011-12-19 15:34:06 <gavinandresen> (back in a few minutes....)
 517 2011-12-19 15:34:42 <sipa> are you using an old key.o, and no rpcdump.o ?
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 519 2011-12-19 15:35:28 <sipa> wait, that doesn't make sense
 520 2011-12-19 15:35:32 <gavinandresen> I did a make clean first....
 521 2011-12-19 15:35:48 <gavinandresen> .... oh, wait, never mind, hacked Makefile
 522 2011-12-19 15:37:46 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 523 2011-12-19 15:39:03 <[Tycho]_> sipa: I see it used in key import/export but somehow don't see where it's defined...
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 525 2011-12-19 15:39:40 <sipa> [Tycho]_: in base58.h
 526 2011-12-19 15:40:30 <[Tycho]_> Hmm, converting 100 hash160 to addresses takes almost 70 ms in PHP :(
 527 2011-12-19 15:40:50 <sipa> use a programming language
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 535 2011-12-19 16:05:21 <[Tycho]_> Another deepbit programmer already asked me to move the site to same platform as core pool, but I still can't agree :)
 536 2011-12-19 16:05:36 <[Tycho]_> May be will think about something like fastcgi...
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 539 2011-12-19 16:18:35 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I highly think the solution to many of the bdb encryption problems is to do our own keystore in a text file we control completely
 540 2011-12-19 16:19:25 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt:  I highly think the solution is keys on separate devices
 541 2011-12-19 16:19:41 <sipa> i think those two solutions are orthogonal
 542 2011-12-19 16:20:10 <BlueMatt>  /agreed
 543 2011-12-19 16:20:19 <upb> i believe strongy the solution to everything is either 1) add another layer of abstraction or 2) implement the idea inhouse
 544 2011-12-19 16:20:30 <sipa> i don't think we'll ever be able to move the keys completely outside of the software
 545 2011-12-19 16:20:37 <gavinandresen> Yes, but I'm not planning on putting any effort into keys-in-a-text-file-we-control because I think the multi-device solution is much more important
 546 2011-12-19 16:21:07 <BlueMatt> so you are just gonna put a ton of effort into bdb workarounds?
 547 2011-12-19 16:21:20 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: no
 548 2011-12-19 16:21:54 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I just want to know what the risks are, so users can know what the risks are
 549 2011-12-19 16:21:59 <BlueMatt> you already have, and Im pretty sure the point about wallet passphrase change is broken
 550 2011-12-19 16:22:30 <BlueMatt> and I agree, keys should be on separate devices, but that is a long ways off, and we have to do something other then keep them in bdb in the meantime
 551 2011-12-19 16:23:28 <sipa> moving away from bdb is really not that hard
 552 2011-12-19 16:23:37 <sipa> (for private keys)
 553 2011-12-19 16:23:49 <gavinandresen> Ok.... anybody working on that?
 554 2011-12-19 16:23:57 <sipa> we've been discussing it some time ago
 555 2011-12-19 16:24:27 <sipa> but, no
 556 2011-12-19 16:24:35 <BlueMatt> well in standard bitcoin fashion it has been heavily discussed, but I dont think anyone is working on it
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 558 2011-12-19 16:25:13 <gavinandresen> Well, I've been very clear on what my priorities are, and I'm not going to work on it.
 559 2011-12-19 16:25:24 <sipa> i've got a few other things on my priority list now, but i wouldn't mind working on it
 560 2011-12-19 16:25:32 <sipa> gavinandresen: fair enough
 561 2011-12-19 16:25:35 <gavinandresen> ... but what do you suggest we tell 0.4 users?
 562 2011-12-19 16:25:59 <sipa> upgrade to 0.4.1 or 0.5?
 563 2011-12-19 16:26:07 <sipa> or is there something i'm missing?
 564 2011-12-19 16:26:25 <gavinandresen> sipa: I send an email a few minutes ago RE: sending an alert
 565 2011-12-19 16:26:29 <sipa> oh
 566 2011-12-19 16:26:50 <BlueMatt> I think the install scripts should be fixed so that the upgrade procedure removes wx
 567 2011-12-19 16:27:00 <BlueMatt> Im surprised that was never done...
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 569 2011-12-19 16:28:35 <gavinandresen> Some people considered the 'keep the wx version around' a feature, not a bug
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 571 2011-12-19 16:29:14 <sipa> hmm, does changing the passphrase trigger a wallet rewrite?
 572 2011-12-19 16:29:42 <sipa> if not, there is certainly a chance that the key could be recovered from the old mkey record in the bdb slack space
 573 2011-12-19 16:29:48 <gavinandresen> are we sure it needs to?  does it overwrite a db entry, or add a new one?
 574 2011-12-19 16:29:49 <BlueMatt> mmm, well as long as 0.4 crashes when opening an encrypted wallet, we are ok...
 575 2011-12-19 16:29:58 <Eliel> one way of solving the bdb leaving data around issue would be to simply not save the data in the file in cleartext, ever. That is, make the only difference between unencrypted wallet and encrypted wallet that "unencrypted" wallet contains the encryption key used to encrypt the private keys.
 576 2011-12-19 16:30:03 <sipa> gavinandresen: that's irrelevant, i believe
 577 2011-12-19 16:30:31 <sipa> Eliel: and have the master key available on disk?
 578 2011-12-19 16:30:34 <gavinandresen> I'd really like to get past "I believe" and "I'm pretty sure" ....
 579 2011-12-19 16:30:38 <sipa> Eliel: that just moves the problem
 580 2011-12-19 16:30:42 <gmaxwell> Eliel: then you just leave the master key.
 581 2011-12-19 16:31:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: 0.4 doesn't crash on opening an encrypted wallet
 582 2011-12-19 16:31:19 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I would be willing to bet that sipa is right here
 583 2011-12-19 16:31:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, oops wrong client sorry
 584 2011-12-19 16:31:39 <gavinandresen> If, in practice, you change the wallet passphrase 100 times and BDB never actually leaves anything in 'slack space' because it is always overwriting the same number of bytes in the same record, then that's good enough.
 585 2011-12-19 16:31:46 ThomasV has joined
 586 2011-12-19 16:32:00 <gavinandresen> (it'll leave stuff in the transaction log, but that's OK because that gets removed at shutdown)
 587 2011-12-19 16:32:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: i don't think bdb ever overwrites date, unless you set a specific option when opening the file
 588 2011-12-19 16:32:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I would be willing to bet that isnt true
 589 2011-12-19 16:32:27 <sipa> but i guess we need to test this
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 591 2011-12-19 16:32:45 <sipa> sec
 592 2011-12-19 16:33:25 <gavinandresen> again, I just want to know whether or not we can tell users "upgrade to 0.5.1 and wallet encryption is fixed".  If we can't... then we probably should just tell them "wallet encryption is broken.  Stay tuned, we're figuring out how to fix it."
 593 2011-12-19 16:33:42 <Eliel> sipa: it moves the problem, yes, but it's simpler to to erase one key than n+1 keys from the hdd.
 594 2011-12-19 16:34:00 <sipa> Eliel: but the master key doesn't ever change
 595 2011-12-19 16:34:13 <sipa> if it touched disk once, your entire wallet should be considered comprimised
 596 2011-12-19 16:34:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'm testing something, sec
 597 2011-12-19 16:34:54 <gavinandresen> sipa: thanks
 598 2011-12-19 16:34:58 <Eliel> sipa: that's easily fixed.
 599 2011-12-19 16:35:19 <BlueMatt> Eliel: you are changing the problem to the problem sipa is currently testing...
 600 2011-12-19 16:35:53 <sipa> gavinandresen: but if the problem is that changing a passphrase results in the old mkey record remaining available, it should be changed to causing a wallet.dat-rewrite as well
 601 2011-12-19 16:35:59 <BlueMatt> you took a problem that was related (and pretty much solved), and changed it to the one we are looking at fixing
 602 2011-12-19 16:37:00 <gavinandresen> sipa: yep.  I'd be more comfortable with that if I knew why people are reporting leftover wallet.dat.rewrites on their disks.....
 603 2011-12-19 16:38:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: hmm, where in CWallet::ChangeWalletPassphrase does the old mkey get removed?
 604 2011-12-19 16:39:00 <sipa> oh wait, it just writes a new one with the same key
 605 2011-12-19 16:39:05 <sipa> never mind
 606 2011-12-19 16:40:43 btc_novice has joined
 607 2011-12-19 16:40:55 h4ckm3 has joined
 608 2011-12-19 16:43:34 <helo> it would be nice if bitcoin-qt, when flushing writes to disk on close, would have a pop-up like the loading screen
 609 2011-12-19 16:43:51 <sipa> gavinandresen: i checked the number of times an 'mkey' record was available in wallet.dat
 610 2011-12-19 16:44:10 <sipa> gavinandresen: changing the passphrase doesn't change that number (1)
 611 2011-12-19 16:44:15 <sipa> it practice
 612 2011-12-19 16:44:29 <sipa> no guarantee that that is absolutely true all the time, of course
 613 2011-12-19 16:45:24 <gavinandresen> sipa:  great.  I'll do a little testing, too...
 614 2011-12-19 16:45:28 MimeNarrator has joined
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 616 2011-12-19 16:51:51 <luke-jr> upb: I'm the only one working on proper abstraction so far :<
 617 2011-12-19 16:52:13 <upb> yeah too bad
 618 2011-12-19 16:52:16 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: abstraction of what?
 619 2011-12-19 16:52:18 <upb> it was meant as a joke :D
 620 2011-12-19 16:52:50 <luke-jr> [11:27:43] <BlueMatt> mmm, well as long as 0.4 crashes when opening an encrypted wallet, we are ok… <-- it shouldn't.
 621 2011-12-19 16:53:07 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: keep reading...
 622 2011-12-19 16:53:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: wallet access abstraction
 623 2011-12-19 16:54:28 <BlueMatt> mmm, well do keys in text file support
 624 2011-12-19 16:54:38 <luke-jr> wait, wallet encryption is broken AGAIN?
 625 2011-12-19 16:54:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I'm only doing the abstraction :P
 626 2011-12-19 16:54:59 <BlueMatt> no, but its so full of hacks that it would be nice to move off of bdb to do key storage
 627 2011-12-19 16:56:29 <sipa> gavinandresen: bad news
 628 2011-12-19 16:56:44 <sipa> gavinandresen: fresh wallet, encrypt it -> mkey record is available *twice* in the wallet.dat file
 629 2011-12-19 16:56:59 <BlueMatt> wtf?
 630 2011-12-19 16:57:00 <sipa> (although only being in the database once)
 631 2011-12-19 16:57:17 <sipa> change passphrase: one of the old ones is still there
 632 2011-12-19 16:57:20 wasabi1 has joined
 633 2011-12-19 16:57:20 b4epoche_ has joined
 634 2011-12-19 16:57:20 <BlueMatt> damn bdb
 635 2011-12-19 16:58:14 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 636 2011-12-19 16:58:14 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
 637 2011-12-19 16:58:30 <sipa> i really don't want to use bdb for any sensitive data anymore
 638 2011-12-19 16:58:47 <BlueMatt> agreed
 639 2011-12-19 16:59:30 Workbench_ has joined
 640 2011-12-19 17:01:47 <luke-jr> sigh
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 642 2011-12-19 17:03:40 <luke-jr> how about replacing backupwallet with an full-encryptable XML export, and just not using bdb for backups?
 643 2011-12-19 17:04:12 <sipa> luke-jr: walletdump needs a bit of work still, but it's quite close to that
 644 2011-12-19 17:04:18 <sipa> JSON instead of XML thoug
 645 2011-12-19 17:04:40 <luke-jr> why JSON? x.x
 646 2011-12-19 17:04:46 <sipa> because i can read it
 647 2011-12-19 17:04:54 <luke-jr> wasn't the long-term goal to get away from JSON?
 648 2011-12-19 17:05:05 <sipa> never heard about such a goal
 649 2011-12-19 17:05:06 <luke-jr> XML is easier to read than JSON :P
 650 2011-12-19 17:05:24 <luke-jr> sipa: JSON has poor software support.
 651 2011-12-19 17:05:44 <sipa> it's significantly easier to read in many languages than XML, imho
 652 2011-12-19 17:05:52 <luke-jr> um, no…
 653 2011-12-19 17:06:01 <luke-jr> virtually every language has an XML library
 654 2011-12-19 17:06:08 <sipa> yeds
 655 2011-12-19 17:06:09 <sipa> yes
 656 2011-12-19 17:06:13 <luke-jr> virtually every JSON library, when it exists, is buggy
 657 2011-12-19 17:06:19 <sipa> and it still requires a lot more work than JSON
 658 2011-12-19 17:06:27 <sipa> but i won't argue about this - if you want XML export, please implement it
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 661 2011-12-19 17:10:36 <gavinandresen> sipa:  ok, thanks for testing.  I'm torn on what to tell 0.4 users; 0.5.1 is definitely more secure, but, obviously, still broken in subtle ways.
 662 2011-12-19 17:11:13 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: so fix 0.5.1, release, upgrade alert
 663 2011-12-19 17:11:38 <sipa> i *really* don't like the mkey record being twice in that file *after* rewriting it
 664 2011-12-19 17:11:39 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: the vulnerability is:  start with a weak passphrase, change it, and the hashed-but-weak passphrase may still be in the wallet.dat file.
 665 2011-12-19 17:12:34 <Eliel> what would that do in practise if someone brute forces it?
 666 2011-12-19 17:12:39 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so… same problem as before? any reason the same solution won't work?
 667 2011-12-19 17:12:43 <sipa> i don't even get it how that is possible
 668 2011-12-19 17:12:51 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: 0.4 users can upgrade to 0.4.2
 669 2011-12-19 17:12:52 <sipa> is that record being relocated within the file?
 670 2011-12-19 17:14:17 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: bitcoin-wx users?
 671 2011-12-19 17:14:18 <gavinandresen> sipa:  darn good question, why is the old mkey being written?  That might explain cypherdoc's bug, too...
 672 2011-12-19 17:14:36 <sipa> gavinandresen: the old mkey is not being written
 673 2011-12-19 17:14:41 <gavinandresen> (he said he had to use his old passphrase to unlock his new, re-written wallet)
 674 2011-12-19 17:14:47 <sipa> gavinandresen: the current mkey is written twice
 675 2011-12-19 17:14:52 <sipa> and only overwritten once
 676 2011-12-19 17:14:53 <gavinandresen> sipa:  ah, ok.
 677 2011-12-19 17:14:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: oh, only if someone steps up to maintain wx, right
 678 2011-12-19 17:15:20 <sipa> still, wallet rewriting prunes any non-existing record
 679 2011-12-19 17:15:24 <sipa> so encryption is "safe"
 680 2011-12-19 17:15:37 <sipa> but changing a passphrase (without rewriting) isn't
 681 2011-12-19 17:15:39 traviscj has joined
 682 2011-12-19 17:16:18 <sipa> cypherdoc's problem looks just like a crashed/failed rewrite
 683 2011-12-19 17:16:41 <sipa> and bdb reverting
 684 2011-12-19 17:16:57 <gavinandresen> Ok, so the easy solution is trigger a wallet rewrite whenever you change your wallet passphrase.
 685 2011-12-19 17:17:04 * luke-jr assumed passphrase changes already rewrote
 686 2011-12-19 17:17:24 <sipa> me to
 687 2011-12-19 17:17:29 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: ... too much assuming happening in this project....
 688 2011-12-19 17:19:55 jacobwg has joined
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 690 2011-12-19 17:20:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: no, too much talk without testing/working in this project
 691 2011-12-19 17:20:52 <sipa> that too :)
 692 2011-12-19 17:20:53 <BlueMatt> which results in assumptions
 693 2011-12-19 17:21:02 <sipa> my mistake, i assumed i caused a resilver in my own branch after changing a passphrase
 694 2011-12-19 17:21:21 <sipa> seems i didn't
 695 2011-12-19 17:22:41 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: RE: talking:  want to volunteer to fix and test the windows installer so 0.4 to 0.5 upgrades happen smoothly?
 696 2011-12-19 17:23:12 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Ill take a look...
 697 2011-12-19 17:23:46 <devrandom> BlueMatt: I didn't get a chance to look into qt-win32 yet, but let me know if you had any insights re non-determinism beyond the .prl files
 698 2011-12-19 17:24:24 <BlueMatt> devrandom: will do, I have it on my todo list, but it did look like its 99% deterministic, I need some more time to look into it...
 699 2011-12-19 17:34:50 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the qt-win32 zip you used is out-of-date (hence why I cant get close to it in my builds)
 700 2011-12-19 17:35:43 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: can you run a new build and upload it somewhere for comparison?
 701 2011-12-19 17:36:48 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm not clear on what you want me to do-- re-fetch an input and re-build it?
 702 2011-12-19 17:37:55 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: no, just rebuild the qt gitian yml (as long as your qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.4... is the 97195eb... sha256)
 703 2011-12-19 17:38:45 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ok, but I thought we determined that builds done on the same day were deterministic.....
 704 2011-12-19 17:40:43 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: assuming you use a recent version, yea, but I want to make sure you can duplicate on the latest version vs mine on diff hardware, etc...
 705 2011-12-19 17:41:19 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ok, building now... (it'll be a while before it is done)
 706 2011-12-19 17:42:03 <BlueMatt> thanks
 707 2011-12-19 17:42:51 erus` has joined
 708 2011-12-19 17:46:44 <coderrr> what do you guys think about a setting for the gitian build process to use multiple cores ?
 709 2011-12-19 17:47:08 <coderrr> or would that make the output non deterministic ?
 710 2011-12-19 17:48:01 <BlueMatt> it already has one
 711 2011-12-19 17:48:02 <BlueMatt> -j
 712 2011-12-19 17:48:29 <k9quaint> how can you work on the day after the glorious leader has died :(
 713 2011-12-19 17:48:31 <BlueMatt> and it usually doesnt make it nondeterministic, but sometimes does (so the gitian files are modified to not use the -j option if it is nondeterministic with -j)
 714 2011-12-19 17:48:43 <coderrr> ah ok
 715 2011-12-19 17:48:44 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: heh
 716 2011-12-19 17:49:05 <gavinandresen> k9quaint: I'm not dead yet.
 717 2011-12-19 17:49:12 <BlueMatt> haha
 718 2011-12-19 17:49:31 <k9quaint> ah, to witness the birth of a thousand conspiracy theorys :)
 719 2011-12-19 17:49:36 <gavinandresen> heh
 720 2011-12-19 17:49:57 * BlueMatt thinks we should declare yesterday a national holiday: "dumbass crazy person with nuclear weapons died"-day
 721 2011-12-19 17:50:13 <BlueMatt> (and was replaced with his even crazier son...)
 722 2011-12-19 17:50:14 <gavinandresen> ... I need a bigger pair of glasses to play the part of Glorious Leader....
 723 2011-12-19 17:50:30 <BlueMatt> and a weird hat
 724 2011-12-19 17:51:01 <k9quaint> you might need to fix your hair
 725 2011-12-19 17:51:03 <gavinandresen> ... and fawning yes-men, as opposed to you guys who always slap me upside the head when I have dumb ideas....
 726 2011-12-19 17:51:37 <gavinandresen> "Follow me men!  We shall invade PayPal at Dawn!"
 727 2011-12-19 17:51:41 <BlueMatt> heh
 728 2011-12-19 17:52:08 <BlueMatt> arg...compared to a build from yesterday "Binary files qt1/lib/libQtSql.a and qt2/lib/libQtSql.a differ"
 729 2011-12-19 17:53:56 <BlueMatt> coderrr: also useful is the -m option to set the amount of memory for the virtual build server (if you are gonna use -j you need -m)
 730 2011-12-19 17:53:59 <sipa> why do we need qt's sql?
 731 2011-12-19 17:54:14 <BlueMatt> sipa: rm lib/libQtSql.a is probably not a bad idea
 732 2011-12-19 18:02:29 Shaded has joined
 733 2011-12-19 18:06:19 gp5st has left ()
 734 2011-12-19 18:09:57 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #136: STILL FAILING in 24 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/136/
 735 2011-12-19 18:11:17 <luke-jr> sudo make block
 736 2011-12-19 18:12:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: you broke it^
 737 2011-12-19 18:13:02 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: there is a jenkins option where it will figure out who broke the build and email the,
 738 2011-12-19 18:13:06 <gmaxwell> er them.
 739 2011-12-19 18:13:42 jacobwg has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
 740 2011-12-19 18:13:44 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it usually posts the list of commit authors here (and should have listed sipa, except that I had the irc notification broken and it was pming me instead of the chan, so there are no "changes" on that build)
 741 2011-12-19 18:14:04 <BlueMatt> email, Ill take a look...
 742 2011-12-19 18:15:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, there is though Im weary of enabling it as it doesnt check which commit broke the build, it just sends to every commit's author since last build
 743 2011-12-19 18:15:29 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and Im assuming people will complain if I turn it on...
 744 2011-12-19 18:16:14 <BlueMatt> aww, I got a "Binary files qt1/lib/libQtGui.a and qt3/lib/libQtGui.a differ"
 745 2011-12-19 18:16:23 <coderrr> BlueMatt, ah thx, i've already extracted out and frakensteined the win32 gitian build scripts so i could do a standalone win32 build w/o a VM
 746 2011-12-19 18:17:18 <BlueMatt> np
 747 2011-12-19 18:19:37 <luke-jr> *%&#*)%&#)
 748 2011-12-19 18:19:40 <luke-jr> someone find a block plz
 749 2011-12-19 18:19:50 * luke-jr wonders if anyone is mining on testnet presently
 750 2011-12-19 18:20:12 <BlueMatt> doubtful, ask gmaxwell
 751 2011-12-19 18:21:00 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you want someone to mine testnet?
 752 2011-12-19 18:21:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: seems the win32 build doesn't compile key.o and rpcdump.o ?
 753 2011-12-19 18:21:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I'll mine testnet for you if you want.
 754 2011-12-19 18:21:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: its just running the bitcoin-qt.pro qmake followed by make-j2
 755 2011-12-19 18:22:25 <sipa> BlueMatt: it's in the win32 build for bitcoind
 756 2011-12-19 18:22:46 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry...well in that case its just running the makefile.linux-mingw makefile
 757 2011-12-19 18:23:05 <BlueMatt> (which it appears was not updated)
 758 2011-12-19 18:23:14 <sipa> wow, never noticed that file
 759 2011-12-19 18:23:48 <BlueMatt> it had been in my repo for a long time and not committed because its poorly-written...
 760 2011-12-19 18:23:56 <BlueMatt> (and very ubuntu-specific_
 761 2011-12-19 18:24:01 <BlueMatt> s/_/)/
 762 2011-12-19 18:25:23 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r3ae6516 / src/makefile.linux-mingw : add key.o and rpcdump.o to makefile.linux-mingw - http://git.io/PxEX7Q https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/3ae65166b53ffcf37565cc8362558f3edb9a37b0
 763 2011-12-19 18:25:59 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I just want a block found somehwere :P
 764 2011-12-19 18:26:09 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: even on testnet? Why?
 765 2011-12-19 18:26:14 <luke-jr> testing :P
 766 2011-12-19 18:26:21 <gmaxwell> okay, I'll do a testnet block.
 767 2011-12-19 18:26:25 <luke-jr> hold on then, lemme switch
 768 2011-12-19 18:26:49 <luke-jr> ok, on testnet now
 769 2011-12-19 18:27:00 <gmaxwell> okay.
 770 2011-12-19 18:28:01 <gmaxwell> bin
 771 2011-12-19 18:28:02 <gmaxwell> g
 772 2011-12-19 18:28:21 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: happy now?
 773 2011-12-19 18:28:32 <luke-jr> hmm, no
 774 2011-12-19 18:28:58 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: you testing op_eval 0.6 changes on testnet?  (that's actually what I'm working on right now...)
 775 2011-12-19 18:29:06 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: no
 776 2011-12-19 18:29:21 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: furthermore, I'd prefer to see OP_EVAL wait for sipa's stuff at least :p
 777 2011-12-19 18:29:25 clapper has joined
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 779 2011-12-19 18:29:32 <luke-jr> before being validated by non-miners, I mean
 780 2011-12-19 18:29:43 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 781 2011-12-19 18:29:56 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: still mining?
 782 2011-12-19 18:30:26 <gmaxwell> No, if you need me to again lemme know.
 783 2011-12-19 18:30:36 <gmaxwell> There there were two blocks right after the one I got.
 784 2011-12-19 18:30:46 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I do, my code doesn't seem to be working
 785 2011-12-19 18:30:47 <luke-jr> oh
 786 2011-12-19 18:30:48 <gmaxwell> oh, three actually.
 787 2011-12-19 18:30:49 <luke-jr> so someone else is mining
 788 2011-12-19 18:30:55 <gmaxwell> yea apparently.
 789 2011-12-19 18:30:55 <sipa> luke-jr: unless there's reasonable consensus about updating the script language (i'm in favor, obviously), i don't plan to implement it
 790 2011-12-19 18:31:28 <luke-jr> sipa: I think we can get both Tycho and I behind it ;)
 791 2011-12-19 18:31:49 <gavinandresen> behind what?
 792 2011-12-19 18:31:59 <rjk2> i think Graet might be mining on testnet right now, to test his DGM setup
 793 2011-12-19 18:32:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: https://gist.github.com/1262449 :)
 794 2011-12-19 18:32:37 <BlueMatt> its kinda sad when everyone knows who it is mining on testnet
 795 2011-12-19 18:32:42 <gavinandresen> I think that is a great idea that will need six months of review/thought.
 796 2011-12-19 18:33:08 localhost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 798 2011-12-19 18:33:21 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: luke (and [Tycho]_ to some degree I think) were clamoring for a new address format for send-to-compressed-pubkey because it's smaller in the chain. And I flamed him (with some technical support from Sipa) that key recovery is clearly superior and should be done instead as per sipa's proposal.
 799 2011-12-19 18:33:31 <gavinandresen> ... and I think we need multidevice wallets right now, so I'm going to throw a hissy fit if all of the op_eval planning/discussion is deferred
 800 2011-12-19 18:33:32 <[Tycho]_> Hello.
 801 2011-12-19 18:34:10 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I think implementing multidevice wallets will be 6 months out ;)
 802 2011-12-19 18:34:13 <gavinandresen> I'm hearing two issues:  new scripting language and key recover.
 803 2011-12-19 18:34:18 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: realistically, most people arent gonna bother setting up a multidevice wallet
 804 2011-12-19 18:34:28 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: yes, IF we get mining support in NOW.
 805 2011-12-19 18:34:36 <gmaxwell> (see also: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/addr.compare.html)
 806 2011-12-19 18:34:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=28559816
 807 2011-12-19 18:34:48 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I want bitcoin version 1.0 wallets to be multidevice by default.
 808 2011-12-19 18:34:52 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: mining support is already in. ;)
 809 2011-12-19 18:35:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: has some more explanation
 810 2011-12-19 18:35:07 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: that doesnt mean most people will use it...
 811 2011-12-19 18:35:26 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so long as ONLY miners do the verification, OP_EVAL as-is can be used today.
 812 2011-12-19 18:35:41 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: while still deferring for script improvmenet
 813 2011-12-19 18:35:49 <luke-jr> script improvements to include key recovery
 814 2011-12-19 18:36:00 <sipa> i have no problem with pushing a simple OP_EVAL now that will allow multidevice stuff
 815 2011-12-19 18:36:01 <luke-jr> ie, non-miners keep doing OP_NOP
 816 2011-12-19 18:36:21 <sipa> and start thinking about *all* possible improvements to the scripting language, which could together go in an OP_EVAL2
 817 2011-12-19 18:36:42 <sipa> as obviously i've only changed a few things, while there may be much more possible
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 819 2011-12-19 18:36:53 <[Tycho]_> "multidevice wallets" ?
 820 2011-12-19 18:37:24 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I'm not clear on what you're proposing, then.  The pending op_eval pull (which I just rebased and cleaned up) is, essentially, mining-and-testnet-only
 821 2011-12-19 18:38:01 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: oh, it won't make the client part reject invalid OP_EVALs?
 822 2011-12-19 18:38:25 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: it will make the client relay/check them, yes.
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 824 2011-12-19 18:38:58 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I think luke is proposing to delay phase2 of the rollout (where the new rules get enforced on the chain) so that more things can be added to OP_EVAL.
 825 2011-12-19 18:38:59 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: if Eligius includes an OP_EVAL in a block, that does not fit the current OP_EVAL rules, will clients rejects that if they have your pull?
 826 2011-12-19 18:39:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: how the heck could we do the op_eval2 without introducing yet another address type? :(
 827 2011-12-19 18:39:23 <luke-jr> for example, a block including an OP_EVAL with OP_RECOVER in it
 828 2011-12-19 18:39:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: very good point...
 829 2011-12-19 18:39:41 <BlueMatt> how much additional cpu does key recovery take?
 830 2011-12-19 18:39:48 Cablesaurus has joined
 831 2011-12-19 18:39:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: 5% or so
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 834 2011-12-19 18:40:02 <BlueMatt> mmm
 835 2011-12-19 18:40:04 <TD> argh
 836 2011-12-19 18:40:18 <TD> can we please punt on scripting language "improvements" until we're actually using at least 10% of the power of todays language?
 837 2011-12-19 18:40:34 <gavinandresen> the voice of reason enters....
 838 2011-12-19 18:40:38 <gmaxwell> Not so.
 839 2011-12-19 18:40:45 orbiting has joined
 840 2011-12-19 18:40:53 <TD> i want to work with jim+andreas to do multi-device wallets in javaland next year
 841 2011-12-19 18:41:01 <gmaxwell> The improvement here that people are actually caring about is recovery, not anything fancy.
 842 2011-12-19 18:41:04 Sedra has joined
 843 2011-12-19 18:41:07 <TD> probably in Q2 timeframe unless somebody steps up to help
 844 2011-12-19 18:41:28 <BlueMatt> TD: there is a difference between improvements that can be implemented and used by current clients on simple sends, whereas most of the stuff in the current language is useful only in complicated weird cases
 845 2011-12-19 18:41:29 AStove has joined
 846 2011-12-19 18:41:32 <gavinandresen> So: for key recovery, take a couple of the other OP_NOP opcodes and implement key recovery.....
 847 2011-12-19 18:41:35 <gavinandresen> LATER
 848 2011-12-19 18:41:40 <sipa> BlueMatt: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6430.msg100334#msg100334
 849 2011-12-19 18:41:51 <TD> key recovery? this is for the smaller transactions?
 850 2011-12-19 18:41:52 osmosis has joined
 851 2011-12-19 18:41:57 <sipa> TD: yes
 852 2011-12-19 18:41:59 <gmaxwell> TD: yes.
 853 2011-12-19 18:42:12 <TD> why not just implement pruning and get a 75% win without any backwards compatibility breaks
 854 2011-12-19 18:42:14 <gavinandresen> For the record:  I think transaction size is completely and utterly a non-issue right now
 855 2011-12-19 18:42:29 <gmaxwell> See the message/thread: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=28559816
 856 2011-12-19 18:42:39 <TD> BlueMatt: i'm not sure escrow or 2-factor coins are really that weird. the existing payment systems provide forms of this, even if they aren't always very good
 857 2011-12-19 18:43:06 <sipa> TD: pruning is impossible for full nodes
 858 2011-12-19 18:43:24 <BlueMatt> TD: 2-factor is already coming
 859 2011-12-19 18:43:31 <BlueMatt> sipa: since when?
 860 2011-12-19 18:43:36 <TD> i'm all for using pubkeys over addresses when there's no chance of the key contents being seen by users (aka not a user-visible address)
 861 2011-12-19 18:43:46 <TD> sipa: as long as some nodes keep the full chain, others can prune their copies
 862 2011-12-19 18:43:52 <TD> sipa: you'd end up with a 3-level network
 863 2011-12-19 18:43:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: obv you cant send blocks, but most people dont have to do that
 864 2011-12-19 18:43:55 <sipa> indeed
 865 2011-12-19 18:44:01 <gmaxwell> TD: pruning isn't magical pixie juice in any case. Moreover, people are now asking for pay-to-pubkey in order to redeuce space on full nodes but it diminishes the improvement of pruning.
 866 2011-12-19 18:44:07 <TD> sipa: or possibly, a few places/servers keeping the full record and then if you want a semi-full node, you bootstrap off them
 867 2011-12-19 18:44:41 <sipa> yea, indeed
 868 2011-12-19 18:45:18 <sipa> i don't really like the idea of further limiting the amount of full nodes (capable of serving the chain) on the network
 869 2011-12-19 18:45:25 <luke-jr> reminder: 2-factor/multi-device does NOT require OP_EVAL
 870 2011-12-19 18:45:48 <gavinandresen> sipa: I haven't heard anybody volunteer to implement pruning, so I think you don't have to worry.
 871 2011-12-19 18:45:49 <TD> sipa: well, disk space is cheap, with that i agree. pruning for me is some way off
 872 2011-12-19 18:45:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: its gonna happen one way or another, but I agree, network analysis needs to come first
 873 2011-12-19 18:45:52 <TD> not the highest priority
 874 2011-12-19 18:45:57 <gmaxwell> sipa++  it's not like we have a surplus of them
 875 2011-12-19 18:45:59 <TD> anyway, home time
 876 2011-12-19 18:46:39 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  to answer your question RE: "new stuff in OP_EVAL" -- with my patch clients will completely validate stuff in OP_EVAL blocks after Feb 1.
 877 2011-12-19 18:46:45 <gmaxwell> Besides, what people complaining about more than space is synctime— that it takes 24 hours to sync up for people. Pruning doesn't improve that in any fundimental way.
 878 2011-12-19 18:46:47 <luke-jr> without key recovery, it's full nodes VS pruning nodes
 879 2011-12-19 18:46:58 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that's the problem.
 880 2011-12-19 18:47:15 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 881 2011-12-19 18:47:20 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: why?  Key recovery is orthogonal to op_eval and multisigs
 882 2011-12-19 18:47:35 <gavinandresen> (as is a new improved scripting language)
 883 2011-12-19 18:47:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and synctime will probably not change much with key recovery...
 884 2011-12-19 18:48:05 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: OP_EVAL is our one chance to add stuff to the scripting without a block chain fork
 885 2011-12-19 18:48:06 <sipa> gavinandresen: key recovery requires a new scripting language, which can only easily be implemented through the use of an OP_EVAL-like construct
 886 2011-12-19 18:48:21 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 887 2011-12-19 18:48:29 <sipa> so, yes, it's possible to do this in an OP_EVAL2, and yet another address type
 888 2011-12-19 18:48:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: actually, not necessarily
 889 2011-12-19 18:48:44 <sipa> eh
 890 2011-12-19 18:48:51 <gmaxwell> or a single type, and op_eval2 nested in op_eval.
 891 2011-12-19 18:48:59 <sipa> indeed
 892 2011-12-19 18:49:03 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yup
 893 2011-12-19 18:49:08 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: that takes up even more space :P
 894 2011-12-19 18:49:22 <gmaxwell> Okay, that prospect makes me feel better about not doing it now... though losing yet another byte sucks.
 895 2011-12-19 18:49:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: you don't
 896 2011-12-19 18:49:43 <gmaxwell> oh?
 897 2011-12-19 18:50:14 <sipa> i think we need to distinguish between scripts using OP_EVAL, and scripts doing a spend-to-script-hash
 898 2011-12-19 18:50:33 <sipa> you can do OP_EVAL directly without using the hash of the subscript being evaluated, right?
 899 2011-12-19 18:50:34 <gmaxwell> oh!
 900 2011-12-19 18:51:23 <sipa> so you'd get a < <addrhash> <OP_CHECKHASH> > <OP_EVAL2> script
 901 2011-12-19 18:51:34 <sipa> instead of the current send-to-address scripts
 902 2011-12-19 18:52:19 <luke-jr> hmm
 903 2011-12-19 18:52:43 <luke-jr> in any case, let's add pubkey addresses then :P
 904 2011-12-19 18:52:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: of course, you may want to use the new scripting language inside a spend-to-script-hash
 905 2011-12-19 18:52:58 <gmaxwell> darnit.
 906 2011-12-19 18:53:11 <sipa> which will require recursion and a lost byte
 907 2011-12-19 18:53:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, :(
 908 2011-12-19 18:53:51 <gmaxwell> At least its a byte lost in the input script.
 909 2011-12-19 18:53:54 <gavinandresen> Tell you what, I'll pay for that extra byte.
 910 2011-12-19 18:54:04 <sipa> luke-jr: let's start by implementing compressed pubkeys whatsoever
 911 2011-12-19 18:54:14 <luke-jr> sipa: sure :P
 912 2011-12-19 18:54:30 <sipa> gavinandresen: when would you want to close the 0.6 merging window?
 913 2011-12-19 18:54:44 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ping
 914 2011-12-19 18:55:03 <gavinandresen> sipa: first or second week in January, I think
 915 2011-12-19 18:55:48 <sipa> gavinandresen: in case a nice test routine is in place, and no reasonable complaints appear, is compressed pubkeys viable for 0.6?
 916 2011-12-19 18:56:13 <luke-jr> sipa: I thought compressed pubkeys were done?
 917 2011-12-19 18:56:40 <luke-jr> there's like 5-10 things that are ready to merge for 0.6, even if it were frozen tomorrow ;P
 918 2011-12-19 18:56:42 <gavinandresen> sipa: do the alternative implementations have any issues with compressed pubkeys?
 919 2011-12-19 18:56:50 <gavinandresen> (and are there any already in the main blockchain?)
 920 2011-12-19 18:57:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: no alternative implementations that i know of fail on compressed pubkeys
 921 2011-12-19 18:57:22 <sipa> maybe we should try that - there are only compressed ones in the testnet chain now
 922 2011-12-19 18:58:05 <gavinandresen> sipa:  what would happen if we just switched to all-transactions-use-compressed ?
 923 2011-12-19 18:58:26 <gavinandresen> (is there any reason to continue supporting non-compressed?)
 924 2011-12-19 18:58:29 <sipa> gavinandresen: you can't; it's all-future-addresses-are-compressed
 925 2011-12-19 18:58:39 <gavinandresen> Ah, ok.
 926 2011-12-19 18:58:42 <sipa> old addresses will always keep using non-compressed-keys
 927 2011-12-19 18:58:47 <gavinandresen> ... right, because the hash changes....
 928 2011-12-19 18:59:01 <sipa> though you can't tell from an address whether it's for a compressed or non-compressed key
 929 2011-12-19 18:59:08 <sipa> (which is nice, so senders don't require an update)
 930 2011-12-19 18:59:14 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 931 2011-12-19 19:00:48 DiabloD3 has joined
 932 2011-12-19 19:00:58 <gavinandresen> As long as it gets thoroughly tested I have no objections; my preference would be to default-to-compressed, and just make sure the transition happens gracefully.
 933 2011-12-19 19:01:23 <gavinandresen> (I assume old non-compressed keys would get two wallet entries, and sends to either compressed or uncompressed versions works properly?)
 934 2011-12-19 19:01:48 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
 935 2011-12-19 19:01:54 <gavinandresen> (there I go, assuming again.....)
 936 2011-12-19 19:02:13 <sipa> gavinandresen: no
 937 2011-12-19 19:02:38 <sipa> wallets contain <pubkey,privkey> entries, that doesn't change
 938 2011-12-19 19:03:02 <sipa> only for new addresses, the pubkey is compressed, and the corresponding address is different as well
 939 2011-12-19 19:03:17 <luke-jr> IIRC the only thing that changes is that new pubkeys have a shorter length ;P
 940 2011-12-19 19:03:40 <sipa> you never get to see the base58 encoded form of the hash of the compressed pubkey of a pubkey that used to be non-compressed
 941 2011-12-19 19:03:46 <sipa> hence, no-one will ever send to it
 942 2011-12-19 19:03:49 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 943 2011-12-19 19:04:03 <sipa> luke-jr: basically, yes
 944 2011-12-19 19:04:55 <sipa> gavinandresen: yet i'm very much in favor of just doing a gradual transition
 945 2011-12-19 19:05:23 dr_win has joined
 946 2011-12-19 19:05:49 <gavinandresen> Well, since all the old keypool keys will be uncompressed it sounds like most people won't be using compressed keys... (unless default for new wallets is compressed)
 947 2011-12-19 19:06:44 <sipa> any txout that sent to a non-compressed address will require the use of the non-compressed pubkey anyway
 948 2011-12-19 19:07:00 <sipa> so the only place where the option to use compressed pubkeys exists, is for newly generated addresses
 949 2011-12-19 19:07:01 iocor has joined
 950 2011-12-19 19:07:30 <BlueMatt> all the cool ideas to optimize the maximum perf we can get out of bitcoin, whereas the poor design of block download and just poor optimization of coding to begin with can give us just as much, if not more speed...
 951 2011-12-19 19:07:50 <sipa> by the way, there is a possibility of optimising block download
 952 2011-12-19 19:07:53 orbiting has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 953 2011-12-19 19:08:10 <sipa> using a bloom filter, many db writes could be avoided
 954 2011-12-19 19:08:17 <BlueMatt> yep
 955 2011-12-19 19:08:23 caedes_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 956 2011-12-19 19:08:48 <sipa> it's not so trivial, and i'm not sure whether it's worth it (we still need the same amount of db reads, and still need to write new blocks)
 957 2011-12-19 19:08:50 <BlueMatt> or disk writes could just be done in another thread so that we dont have to wait on disk writes to verify the next block...
 958 2011-12-19 19:08:51 <gavinandresen> sipa:  cool, that sounds like a really great idea.  Anybody working on it?
 959 2011-12-19 19:09:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: justmoon, in bitcoin-js :)
 960 2011-12-19 19:09:04 <luke-jr> I suspect just dropping fsync would work wonders
 961 2011-12-19 19:09:15 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
 962 2011-12-19 19:09:15 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #137: FIXED in 40 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/137/
 963 2011-12-19 19:09:16 <BlueMattBot> pieter.wuille: add key.o and rpcdump.o to makefile.linux-mingw
 964 2011-12-19 19:09:20 <sipa> \o/
 965 2011-12-19 19:09:35 <BlueMatt> that is one excited bot...
 966 2011-12-19 19:09:52 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: btw, that bot is evil
 967 2011-12-19 19:09:53 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I did some experimenting with that, didn't make a huge difference
 968 2011-12-19 19:09:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ?
 969 2011-12-19 19:10:05 <luke-jr> BlueMattBot: DONT SPAM the Chan help
 970 2011-12-19 19:10:05 <BlueMattBot> Available commands:
 971 2011-12-19 19:10:06 <BlueMattBot> abort <job> - specify which job to abort
 972 2011-12-19 19:10:06 <BlueMattBot> alias [<alias> [<command>]] - defines a new alias, deletes one or lists all existing aliases
 973 2011-12-19 19:10:07 <BlueMattBot> botsnack [<snack>] - om nom nom
 974 2011-12-19 19:10:07 <BlueMattBot> build <job> [now|<delay>[s|m|h]] [<parameterkey>=<value>]* - schedule a job build, with standard, custom or no quiet period
 975 2011-12-19 19:10:08 <BlueMattBot> cb - list jobs which are currently in progress
 976 2011-12-19 19:10:08 <luke-jr> ^
 977 2011-12-19 19:10:08 <BlueMattBot> comment <job> <build-#> <comment> - adds a description to a build
 978 2011-12-19 19:10:09 <BlueMattBot> currentlyBuilding - list jobs which are currently in progress
 979 2011-12-19 19:10:09 <BlueMattBot> h [<job>|-v <view>] - show the health of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 980 2011-12-19 19:10:10 <BlueMattBot> health [<job>|-v <view>] - show the health of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 981 2011-12-19 19:10:10 <BlueMattBot> jobs [<job>|-v <view>] - show the status of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 982 2011-12-19 19:10:11 <BlueMattBot> q - show the state of the build queue
 983 2011-12-19 19:10:12 <BlueMattBot> queue - show the state of the build queue
 984 2011-12-19 19:10:12 <BlueMattBot> s [<job>|-v <view>] - show the status of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 985 2011-12-19 19:10:13 <BlueMattBot> schedule <job> [now|<delay>[s|m|h]] [<parameterkey>=<value>]* - schedule a job build, with standard, custom or no quiet period
 986 2011-12-19 19:10:13 <BlueMattBot> status [<job>|-v <view>] - show the status of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 987 2011-12-19 19:10:14 <BlueMattBot> testresult [<job>|-v <view>] - show the test results of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
 988 2011-12-19 19:10:14 <BlueMattBot> userstat <username> - prints information about a Jenkins user
 989 2011-12-19 19:10:15 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: got dammit
 990 2011-12-19 19:10:21 luke-jr has joined
 991 2011-12-19 19:10:27 <DiabloD3> kickban him
 992 2011-12-19 19:10:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: wasn't me
 993 2011-12-19 19:10:34 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: fix your stupid bot
 994 2011-12-19 19:10:38 <DiabloD3> bluematt: also, I want a tshirt that says "got damnit" now
 995 2011-12-19 19:11:35 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: https://issues.jenkins-ci.org/browse/JENKINS-10827
 996 2011-12-19 19:12:10 <luke-jr> <kutzi> BlueMatt, if you're concerned that the bot might spam a channel, IMO you shouldn't expose the bot in th 1st place <-- wtf?
 997 2011-12-19 19:12:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: furthermore, the last comment there has a fix
 998 2011-12-19 19:13:27 manifold has joined
 999 2011-12-19 19:13:45 <BlueMatt> wait, they fixed that crap?
1000 2011-12-19 19:13:58 <BlueMatt> oh, joy and their stupid bug system didnt email me...wtf?
1001 2011-12-19 19:15:09 [Tycho]_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1002 2011-12-19 19:18:52 b4epoche has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1003 2011-12-19 19:19:01 b4epoche has joined
1004 2011-12-19 19:20:03 <luke-jr> lol
1005 2011-12-19 19:21:58 BlueMattBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1006 2011-12-19 19:22:50 <luke-jr> someone stopped mining testnet? :|
1007 2011-12-19 19:23:33 minimoose has joined
1008 2011-12-19 19:25:45 <sipa> luke-jr: still have that list of 32-byte version byte prefixes anywhere?
1009 2011-12-19 19:25:53 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: hey, not my fault, jenkins didnt even bother to tell me there was an update for the server...
1010 2011-12-19 19:26:01 <luke-jr> sipa: no, but I can post a python script…
1011 2011-12-19 19:26:21 manifold has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1012 2011-12-19 19:26:26 BlueMattBot has joined
1013 2011-12-19 19:26:31 <luke-jr> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/523192/
1014 2011-12-19 19:27:56 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: in other exciting news, the option supposedly committed isnt in my control panel
1015 2011-12-19 19:28:02 <sipa> i'll need a format for private keys with compressed pubkeys
1016 2011-12-19 19:28:14 <sipa> i consider using a new version byte for those
1017 2011-12-19 19:29:53 <luke-jr> >_<
1018 2011-12-19 19:30:12 <luke-jr> sipa: why not just insert an extra octet after the version, for irony's sake?
1019 2011-12-19 19:30:21 <sipa> luke-jr: that's another possibility indeed
1020 2011-12-19 19:33:59 TD has joined
1021 2011-12-19 19:34:18 caedes_ has joined
1022 2011-12-19 19:35:13 BlueMattBot has quit ()
1023 2011-12-19 19:36:14 BlueMattBot has joined
1024 2011-12-19 19:37:19 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr blknotify * rdf4881dd9cf1 bitcoind-personal/src/ (init.cpp main.cpp): Execute a command when best block changes (-blknotify=<cmd>) http://tinyurl.com/d9bwoa5
1025 2011-12-19 19:37:33 BlueMattBot has quit (Client Quit)
1026 2011-12-19 19:37:38 <luke-jr> jgarzik: ^
1027 2011-12-19 19:37:48 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/714
1028 2011-12-19 19:38:18 BlueMattBot has joined
1029 2011-12-19 19:38:52 h4ckm3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1030 2011-12-19 19:40:42 BlueMattBot has quit (Client Quit)
1031 2011-12-19 19:42:25 Sedra- has joined
1032 2011-12-19 19:43:00 <luke-jr> +// Name of client reported in the 'version' message. Report the same name
1033 2011-12-19 19:43:02 <luke-jr> +// for both bitcoind and bitcoin-qt, to make it harder for attackers to
1034 2011-12-19 19:43:03 <luke-jr> +// target servers or GUI users specifically.
1035 2011-12-19 19:43:05 <luke-jr> ^ this is bs -.-
1036 2011-12-19 19:43:24 <gmaxwell> ... I don't think it's bullshit.
1037 2011-12-19 19:43:28 BlueMattBot has joined
1038 2011-12-19 19:43:35 * BlueMatt agrees with gmaxwell 
1039 2011-12-19 19:43:36 <gmaxwell> I don't know that it actually matters much though.
1040 2011-12-19 19:43:41 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it defeats the entire purpose of reporting client
1041 2011-12-19 19:43:52 <luke-jr> might as well have EVERY client report the same thing for "security"
1042 2011-12-19 19:43:53 PovAddict has joined
1043 2011-12-19 19:43:53 <BlueMatt> not even close
1044 2011-12-19 19:44:10 <BlueMatt> it reports the same since they have the same net/block codebase
1045 2011-12-19 19:44:15 PovAddict has left ("Konversation terminated!")
1046 2011-12-19 19:44:16 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: ther behavior of -qt /d is identicial from the network perspective, save that.
1047 2011-12-19 19:44:20 <BlueMatt> thus are as far as other nodes are concerned, identical
1048 2011-12-19 19:44:38 <gmaxwell> Other clients could already be detected in more subtle ways.. so hiding it would be pointless and exposing it helps people be smart.
1049 2011-12-19 19:44:59 <luke-jr> the version stuff is INTENTIONALLY designed to report both wallet codebase and front-end
1050 2011-12-19 19:45:16 Sedra has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1051 2011-12-19 19:45:26 <BlueMatt> are there any legitimate reasons why another client should know if you are running -qt or d?
1052 2011-12-19 19:45:33 <luke-jr> statistics
1053 2011-12-19 19:45:45 <luke-jr> that's the entire purpose of the version field
1054 2011-12-19 19:45:51 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, it lets me know if I'm attacking a soft-and-chewy desktop, vs a hardened but full of cash webservice.
1055 2011-12-19 19:45:55 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0014
1056 2011-12-19 19:45:56 * BlueMatt facepalm
1057 2011-12-19 19:46:18 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thats just plain not true
1058 2011-12-19 19:46:48 <luke-jr> there is no other purpose for it
1059 2011-12-19 19:47:05 <BlueMatt> uhh...dealing with bugs in other clients?
1060 2011-12-19 19:47:10 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: does it help if you think of it as a vendor+version field?
1061 2011-12-19 19:47:34 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's strictly forbidden
1062 2011-12-19 19:47:53 <BlueMatt> Im not gonna argue this
1063 2011-12-19 19:48:12 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: this stuff was all put in the spec
1064 2011-12-19 19:48:32 <luke-jr> yet another case of "let's ignore the spec everyone worked on, and violate it left and right for our implementation"?
1065 2011-12-19 19:49:17 <BlueMatt> or another case of luke-jr writing a stupid "spec" which we deliberately ignore because its stupid
1066 2011-12-19 19:49:19 <gmaxwell> bullshit, I didn't get "bitcoind" and "bitcoin-qt" would be different messages in BIP_0014
1067 2011-12-19 19:49:28 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no u
1068 2011-12-19 19:49:29 <gmaxwell> They are the _same_ program.
1069 2011-12-19 19:49:32 <gmaxwell> They _same_ code.
1070 2011-12-19 19:49:39 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: then read it again
1071 2011-12-19 19:49:39 <gmaxwell> The _same_ on network behavior.
1072 2011-12-19 19:49:44 <gmaxwell> The _same_ releases.
1073 2011-12-19 19:49:44 <luke-jr> they are NOT the same program
1074 2011-12-19 19:49:52 <gmaxwell> The _same_ developers.
1075 2011-12-19 19:49:59 <TD> heh
1076 2011-12-19 19:50:05 <TD> facebook has started advertising bitcoin related services to me
1077 2011-12-19 19:50:08 <gmaxwell> Where can I download bitcoind without bitcoinqt?
1078 2011-12-19 19:50:09 <TD> zuckerberg++
1079 2011-12-19 19:50:20 <gmaxwell> TD: facebook itself??
1080 2011-12-19 19:50:28 <TD> the ads on the right hand side
1081 2011-12-19 19:50:32 wasabi2 has joined
1082 2011-12-19 19:50:35 <TD> a bitcoin accepting business appeared there
1083 2011-12-19 19:50:38 <BlueMatt> heh
1084 2011-12-19 19:50:40 <BlueMatt> nice
1085 2011-12-19 19:50:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no u
1086 2011-12-19 19:51:01 <luke-jr> "Bitcoin user agents are a modified browser user agent with more structure to aid parsers and provide some coherence. In bitcoin, the software usually works like a stack starting from the core code-base up to the end graphical interface. Therefore the user agent strings codify this relationship."
1087 2011-12-19 19:51:09 <luke-jr> Example: "/Satoshi:5.64/bitcoin-qt:0.4/"
1088 2011-12-19 19:51:17 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1089 2011-12-19 19:51:28 <gmaxwell> They could.
1090 2011-12-19 19:51:33 <gmaxwell> They're not required to.
1091 2011-12-19 19:51:34 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1092 2011-12-19 19:52:05 <luke-jr> "Status: Accepted"
1093 2011-12-19 19:52:08 <sipa> luke-jr: if bitcoind and bitcoin-qt are not the same program, it would mean that the version byte would also need to include all compile options (since they select different parts of the source code being compiled in), and possibly compiler version, compilation date, host machine, ... (since they determine which possible bugs in the binary where introduced)
1094 2011-12-19 19:52:18 <sipa> s/version byte/version string/
1095 2011-12-19 19:52:36 wasabi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1096 2011-12-19 19:52:43 <luke-jr> sipa: the user agent is strictly information, and is not allowed to be use to try to workaround bugs
1097 2011-12-19 19:52:47 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Sure, I don't oppose it being /possible/ to use it that way.
1098 2011-12-19 19:52:56 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: the spec says it IS used that way
1099 2011-12-19 19:52:58 <sipa> i don't object to putting bitcoin-qt or bitcoind there
1100 2011-12-19 19:53:16 <gmaxwell> "In the rare case they may even provide an emergency method of shunning faulty clients that threaten network health- although this is strongly unrecommended and extremely bad form."  < discouraged.
1101 2011-12-19 19:53:17 <sipa> but if it's only informational, it's not breaking the spec by hiding information
1102 2011-12-19 19:53:34 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: that's shunning, nothing more
1103 2011-12-19 19:53:39 <luke-jr> "User agent: simple informational tool. Protocol should not be modified depending on user agent."
1104 2011-12-19 19:53:54 <luke-jr> sipa: lying != hiding
1105 2011-12-19 19:54:02 <gmaxwell> ...
1106 2011-12-19 19:54:19 <luke-jr> iff information needs to be hidden (yay security by obscurity?), the information given should be correct
1107 2011-12-19 19:54:19 <BlueMatt> ;;seen wumpus
1108 2011-12-19 19:54:20 <gribble> wumpus was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 days, 0 hours, and 57 seconds ago: <wumpus> BlueMatt: ok, added a pull request
1109 2011-12-19 19:54:25 <luke-jr> ie, /Satoshi:0.6/
1110 2011-12-19 19:54:50 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: don't even pull out "security by obscurity", you know thats crap. Security works in layers.
1111 2011-12-19 19:55:02 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: hiding versions for "security" is a joke
1112 2011-12-19 19:55:16 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: not even close
1113 2011-12-19 19:55:32 <gmaxwell> It's not a version, it's an operational mode.
1114 2011-12-19 19:56:26 <gmaxwell> Should it also emit the current balance.. (for staistical purposes, of course!)
1115 2011-12-19 19:57:28 <gmaxwell> How about a flag to tell if the wallet is encrypted or not— that would be a nice statistic to have that would allow us to reason better about sending an alert.
1116 2011-12-19 19:57:44 <gmaxwell> (in the eventuality of more wallet crypto bugs... :( )
1117 2011-12-19 19:58:09 RazielZ has joined
1118 2011-12-19 19:59:16 <gmaxwell> I'm sorry, these are strawmen— of course, but so is yelling "security by obscurity".
1119 2011-12-19 20:01:30 <sipa> luke-jr: not if you consider from the point "client is allowed to put any version/build information in this field"
1120 2011-12-19 20:02:44 <gmaxwell> There are a lot of stats which are more interesting than -qt/d but I'd be very worried about advertising them to all possible attackers.
1121 2011-12-19 20:03:08 <gmaxwell> E.g. knowing OS versions, compiler/toolchain, libraries, use of ssl, would all be helpful.
1122 2011-12-19 20:04:01 Raziel_ has joined
1123 2011-12-19 20:06:53 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1124 2011-12-19 20:09:56 <sipa> can someone fire up his botnet?
1125 2011-12-19 20:10:04 <sipa> i don't like waiting for a block on mainnet :)
1126 2011-12-19 20:13:17 Litt has joined
1127 2011-12-19 20:13:44 da2ce7 has joined
1128 2011-12-19 20:18:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: whats the delay on wallet export? (it's super usable for making reasonably sized backups)
1129 2011-12-19 20:19:30 Sze has joined
1130 2011-12-19 20:20:54 larsivi has joined
1131 2011-12-19 20:22:58 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rbafb43d / src/bitcoinrpc.cpp : Merge branch 'txn_block_info' of https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin - http://git.io/llDFuA https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/bafb43d6c18c1bf7eb1fcc04bed85e45bd03e961
1132 2011-12-19 20:25:12 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r3528650 / (src/init.cpp src/qt/bitcoin.cpp): Merge pull request #690 from runeksvendsen/qt-cmdline-options-parsing ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/3528650560a2c417da2303869c743da019defc6d
1133 2011-12-19 20:27:33 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1134 2011-12-19 20:33:39 p0s has joined
1135 2011-12-19 20:36:31 slush has joined
1136 2011-12-19 20:40:07 genjix has joined
1137 2011-12-19 20:40:15 <genjix> hey tcatm
1138 2011-12-19 20:40:35 <genjix> could i have access to post conference videos on bitcoinwatch?
1139 2011-12-19 20:40:59 <genjix> also i can post stories from http://bitcoinmedia.com/ if you want too
1140 2011-12-19 20:47:30 Sedra- is now known as Sedra
1141 2011-12-19 20:48:44 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1142 2011-12-19 20:48:46 dikidera has joined
1143 2011-12-19 20:50:51 wasabi has joined
1144 2011-12-19 20:50:52 <luke-jr> genjix: gavinandresen just violated BIP 0014 :P
1145 2011-12-19 20:51:16 <gmaxwell> lies.
1146 2011-12-19 20:51:50 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: where does BIP0014 say you can't put "box of cocks" in that field?
1147 2011-12-19 20:52:10 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ooh, good idea....
1148 2011-12-19 20:52:49 <gavinandresen> ... and very tempting, but no, I think we'll stick with /bitcoin-qt:0.5.99/ for now
1149 2011-12-19 20:52:56 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that's not compliant.
1150 2011-12-19 20:53:26 <sipa> http://blockchain.info/tx-index/13401517/94af4607627535f9b2968bd1fbbf67be101971d682023d6a3b64d8caeb448870?show_adv=yes -> first compressed-key transaction on main net
1151 2011-12-19 20:53:42 wasabi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1152 2011-12-19 20:53:46 <luke-jr> it should be /Satoshi:0.5.99/Bitcoin-Qt:0.5.99/ for Bitcoin-Qt and /Satoshi:0.5.99/bitcoind:0.5.99/ for bitcoind
1153 2011-12-19 20:54:08 <tcatm> genjix: what's your gpg key?
1154 2011-12-19 20:54:57 <luke-jr> or /Satoshi:0.5.99/ if you want to be lame
1155 2011-12-19 20:55:00 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1156 2011-12-19 20:55:11 <gavinandresen> We're being lame and using "bitcoin-qt" to mean "satoshi"
1157 2011-12-19 20:55:25 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that's not just lame, it's in violation :P
1158 2011-12-19 20:55:27 devrandom has joined
1159 2011-12-19 20:55:29 <luke-jr> bitcoind is not bitcoin-qt
1160 2011-12-19 20:55:48 <gmaxwell> Then perhaps use a domain name there?
1161 2011-12-19 20:55:52 <genjix> tcatm: http://privatepaste.com/download/12fba8cc39
1162 2011-12-19 20:55:57 <gmaxwell> "bitcoin.org:0.5.99"
1163 2011-12-19 20:56:00 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: there's no domain name for the Satoshi codebase
1164 2011-12-19 20:56:07 <luke-jr> bitcoin.org is independent
1165 2011-12-19 20:56:07 <gmaxwell> there is a domain where you can get it right now.
1166 2011-12-19 20:56:16 m00p has joined
1167 2011-12-19 20:56:18 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: bitcoin.org SHOULD have other clients on it
1168 2011-12-19 20:56:27 <genjix> gavinandresen: he does have a point. i could take bitcoin-qt and use it with a different core
1169 2011-12-19 20:56:45 <genjix> i was talking before with john about trying libbitcoin with it for example
1170 2011-12-19 20:56:52 <gavinandresen> genjix:  ... then don't call that bitcoin-qt, call it something else....
1171 2011-12-19 20:57:07 <sipa> ok, a compressed-key transaction was just accepted in a mainnet block
1172 2011-12-19 20:57:14 <gmaxwell> How about .. git describe --tags --match 'v*' 2>/dev/null | sed 's/^v//'
1173 2011-12-19 20:57:22 <sipa> if there are incompatible miners... they have a problem :)
1174 2011-12-19 20:57:26 <gmaxwell> sipa:  now.. what clients just sotpped working?
1175 2011-12-19 20:57:32 <genjix> well bitcoin-qt is one code-base, satoshi is another code-base
1176 2011-12-19 20:57:39 <genjix> like kernel + libc
1177 2011-12-19 20:57:55 <gavinandresen> Can I make sipa the Naming King as well as Version King?
1178 2011-12-19 20:58:04 <sipa> please don't
1179 2011-12-19 20:58:07 <genjix> :o
1180 2011-12-19 20:58:11 <tcatm> genjix: interesting email address in that key ;)
1181 2011-12-19 20:58:14 <genjix> <-- viewpoint
1182 2011-12-19 20:58:18 <luke-jr> genjix: Bitcoin-Qt is a GUI for the Satoshi codebase (right now)
1183 2011-12-19 20:58:38 <genjix> tcatm: genjix@riseup.net? how so?
1184 2011-12-19 20:58:45 <gmaxwell> Again: git describe --tags --match 'v*' 2>/dev/null | sed 's/^v//'    < just make it automatically populate that at build time. :
1185 2011-12-19 20:58:48 <gmaxwell> :)
1186 2011-12-19 20:58:48 <genjix> luke-jr: yep, i'm agreeing with you
1187 2011-12-19 20:59:11 <genjix> however whatever. naming wars aren't productive
1188 2011-12-19 20:59:14 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/715 <-- fix
1189 2011-12-19 20:59:27 <gmaxwell> (and use a hook to write it out into a file, so that builds not from git use the static copy from the last checkout)
1190 2011-12-19 20:59:41 <genjix> i'll just dislike, but it's not a HUGE deal zomg im gonna cry
1191 2011-12-19 20:59:42 <gmaxwell> If bitcoin used automake I'd give a patch for it, since I use that automatic git naming in other stuff.
1192 2011-12-19 21:00:33 <sipa> genjix: i'm afraid that bitcoin-qt contains a lot of code that should be in an intermediate layer, to access the wallet
1193 2011-12-19 21:00:55 <sipa> genjix: i plan on working on that, but before that it may be hard to put another backend in
1194 2011-12-19 21:01:11 <genjix> aha well we have many months :)
1195 2011-12-19 21:01:14 <gmaxwell> I do really wish the backend and wallet were seperate programs, esp so you could run multiple wallets against one fullnode, but they aren't and no one is working on them.
1196 2011-12-19 21:01:25 <genjix> i like that the checkpoint code is split off now
1197 2011-12-19 21:01:27 <luke-jr> sipa: I suspect Bitcoin-Qt actually has its own intermediate layer :P
1198 2011-12-19 21:01:31 <sipa> luke-jr: it does
1199 2011-12-19 21:01:48 <genjix> i was thinking maybe that's a good point to start sharing code between multiple projects
1200 2011-12-19 21:01:48 <sipa> luke-jr: but still, it should access a wallet's abstraction layer, and not wallet code directly
1201 2011-12-19 21:02:01 <luke-jr> sipa: yes, that's what the Wallet Protocol was supposed to be
1202 2011-12-19 21:02:07 <genjix> bitcoin validation layer- with swig bindings for java, python, javascript
1203 2011-12-19 21:02:21 <sipa> luke-jr: then by all means implement it
1204 2011-12-19 21:02:22 <tcatm> genjix: http://privatepaste.com/download/bb0dd1f566
1205 2011-12-19 21:02:22 <gmaxwell> oy, seperate process please.
1206 2011-12-19 21:02:23 <CIA-100> bitcoin: various bugfix_client_name * r2ff55c..01ea41 bitcoind-personal/ (28 files in 4 dirs): (13 commits) http://tinyurl.com/d99qfma
1207 2011-12-19 21:02:32 <BlueMatt> did bitcoin-wx autostart minimized?
1208 2011-12-19 21:02:32 <sipa> luke-jr: but the first step is separating the code bases
1209 2011-12-19 21:02:46 <sipa> luke-jr: which imho has priority
1210 2011-12-19 21:02:46 <gmaxwell> which points out another issue.. what happens when you have one bitcoind with three different frontend versions using it?
1211 2011-12-19 21:02:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: why the rename?
1212 2011-12-19 21:03:05 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: what rename?
1213 2011-12-19 21:03:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: wxBitcoin => bitcoin-wx
1214 2011-12-19 21:03:24 <BlueMatt> who the fuck cares what I call it?
1215 2011-12-19 21:03:46 <luke-jr> shrug
1216 2011-12-19 21:03:55 <luke-jr> j/w
1217 2011-12-19 21:04:57 * luke-jr ponders whether to support BIP0014 in 0.4.x once a spec-compliant version is merged
1218 2011-12-19 21:05:01 <BlueMatt> anyway, does anyone know if wx client started minimized when autostarting?
1219 2011-12-19 21:05:03 <genjix> tcatm: i got your info, but you used an old gpg key of mine
1220 2011-12-19 21:05:16 <genjix> might want to delete that
1221 2011-12-19 21:05:26 <vsriniva1> BlueMatt: it did not, iirc;
1222 2011-12-19 21:05:28 <genjix> C21EA5BC <- new one
1223 2011-12-19 21:06:07 <BlueMatt> should the wx one?
1224 2011-12-19 21:06:08 <tcatm> genjix: got a revocation certificate?
1225 2011-12-19 21:06:22 <genjix> tcatm: nope
1226 2011-12-19 21:06:51 <genjix> but its fine since i was able to read your message.
1227 2011-12-19 21:06:58 <luke-jr> wumpus: is "About Qt" a bugfix? :P
1228 2011-12-19 21:07:04 <BlueMatt> s/wx/qt/
1229 2011-12-19 21:07:09 <tcatm> gpg --gen-revoke -u 8561E832
1230 2011-12-19 21:07:58 <vsriniva1> luke-jr: wouldn't supporting 0014 in 4.x be a feature addition?;
1231 2011-12-19 21:08:00 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1232 2011-12-19 21:08:07 <luke-jr> vsriniva1: not sure.
1233 2011-12-19 21:08:22 <luke-jr> vsriniva1: it could be argued, that BIP 0014 is a protocol change
1234 2011-12-19 21:08:37 <genjix> tcatm: http://privatepaste.com/download/5930c19f7a
1235 2011-12-19 21:08:41 <sipa> luke-jr: i'd say no
1236 2011-12-19 21:08:50 <genjix> tcatm: can i post general news or just conference videos?
1237 2011-12-19 21:09:22 <sipa> luke-jr: for statistics purposes, v0.4 still uses network version == client version
1238 2011-12-19 21:09:48 <luke-jr> I guess as long as new clients don't start cutting off ones that don't comply with BIP 0014…
1239 2011-12-19 21:09:57 <sipa> i hope not
1240 2011-12-19 21:10:29 <tcatm> genjix: thanks for the cert. you can post any news but only economical stuff (i.e. things the average bitcoin user might be interested in, not software releases except for the most used clients)
1241 2011-12-19 21:10:45 <genjix> ok
1242 2011-12-19 21:12:37 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.5.x * r96c700f5e4b2 bitcoind-stable/src/net.cpp: Merge branch '0.5.0.x' into 0.5.x http://tinyurl.com/7x3pe5z
1243 2011-12-19 21:14:03 <luke-jr> tcatm: erm, that's not entirely fair..
1244 2011-12-19 21:14:23 <luke-jr> tcatm: "most used" is pretty much determined solely by what is on bitcoin.org
1245 2011-12-19 21:15:19 <luke-jr> when someone has a fully functional client, there's no reason it shouldn't be listed too
1246 2011-12-19 21:15:40 <sipa> agree
1247 2011-12-19 21:16:57 <luke-jr> in fact, Spesmilo *should* probably be on there already.
1248 2011-12-19 21:17:11 <tcatm> on bitcoinwatch?
1249 2011-12-19 21:17:27 <luke-jr> bitcoin.org
1250 2011-12-19 21:18:11 <luke-jr> I guess we're talking about different stuff :p
1251 2011-12-19 21:21:13 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Easy as 3.14159265358979323846...)
1252 2011-12-19 21:24:33 <genjix> well the software is improving on all sides. with the core systems we have BitcoinJava, libbitcoin and BitcoinJS. with GUIs we have electrum, multibit, safebit, spesmilo, bitcoin-android
1253 2011-12-19 21:24:48 <genjix> and multibit has some *really* nice features
1254 2011-12-19 21:24:58 <genjix> electrum has a pretty cool design.
1255 2011-12-19 21:25:25 <genjix> eventually the pressure will mount, so it isn't a worry :) on software side, i'm confident everything we decentralise into a healthy network
1256 2011-12-19 21:26:18 <genjix> right now: Deepbit controls 50% of mining power, mtgox controls 90% of exchange market, and Satoshi client is 95% of all clients. (source for numbers: my ass)
1257 2011-12-19 21:27:01 <genjix> Deepbit will lower as mining becomes more professional. Satoshi will lower because installed software is somewhat of a meritocracy
1258 2011-12-19 21:27:18 <genjix> mtgox is a worry
1259 2011-12-19 21:27:27 <_Fireball> what makes people stick to it?
1260 2011-12-19 21:27:42 <genjix> liquidity from their market volume
1261 2011-12-19 21:27:47 <gmaxwell> The most important thing to have diversity in, however, is chain validation — which we have none because none of those clients are full nodes — and which 'meritocracy' is less important.
1262 2011-12-19 21:28:06 <genjix> gmaxwell: libbitcoin does blockchain validation
1263 2011-12-19 21:28:11 <genjix> BitcoinJS too
1264 2011-12-19 21:28:27 <_Fireball> so it's a closed loop - noone goes to a new exchange because there is no volume. And there is no volume because noone goes there.
1265 2011-12-19 21:28:34 <gmaxwell> I didn't think bitcoinjs did. Is libbitcoin actually usable except for analysis scripts? could I use it to mine?
1266 2011-12-19 21:28:35 <genjix> gmaxwell: https://gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin/blobs/master/src/validate.cpp
1267 2011-12-19 21:28:39 <sipa> exchanges exhibit network effect
1268 2011-12-19 21:28:50 <genjix> _Fireball: exactly.
1269 2011-12-19 21:28:52 osmosis has joined
1270 2011-12-19 21:28:56 <sipa> genjix: can you verify the full main chain already?
1271 2011-12-19 21:29:02 <sipa> with libbitcoin?
1272 2011-12-19 21:29:11 <genjix> yes
1273 2011-12-19 21:29:20 <sipa> all opcodes implemented?
1274 2011-12-19 21:29:32 <genjix> the ones used in the main chain
1275 2011-12-19 21:29:39 <sipa> nice :)
1276 2011-12-19 21:29:47 <gmaxwell> genjix: it would be really nice to have a hook in bitcoind where it only accepts a block if its also accepted by a sidecar node. Then a miner could concurrently validate with several independant implementations and only follow the chain that passes all of them.
1277 2011-12-19 21:30:19 <gmaxwell> genjix: but we can split you by mining some non-standard txn that uses some opcode not currently in the main chain that you don't implement?
1278 2011-12-19 21:30:57 <genjix> then i'll add it. haven't added all opcodes because other pressing issues
1279 2011-12-19 21:31:00 <gmaxwell> The problem is that for chain validation incompleteness in implementation is a security vulnerability.
1280 2011-12-19 21:31:26 <gmaxwell> E.g. some unfun person can pop you off the main chain into a fork which will certantly die by just sending a txn to luke.
1281 2011-12-19 21:31:46 <genjix> https://gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin/blobs/master/include/bitcoin/script.hpp
1282 2011-12-19 21:31:56 <genjix> those are the supported opcodes
1283 2011-12-19 21:32:06 <gmaxwell> and while nodes with your software are off in la la land they can do things like mine that fork (perhaps with the help of a few miners also using that node code)
1284 2011-12-19 21:32:12 <genjix> i know it works until at least 152k blocks
1285 2011-12-19 21:32:16 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, he knows ;)
1286 2011-12-19 21:32:25 <gmaxwell> Awesome progress in any case. :)
1287 2011-12-19 21:32:28 <genjix> thanks
1288 2011-12-19 21:32:37 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1289 2011-12-19 21:32:47 <genjix> if you're interested, i made this video explaining the philosophy behind it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyKcSpx5xDg
1290 2011-12-19 21:33:05 <genjix> and there are design notes on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=30646.0
1291 2011-12-19 21:33:36 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, I'm not trying to rant. Just pointing out that to have useful diversity there is a high bar which we've not met (well unless bitcoinjs gets there).
1292 2011-12-19 21:33:55 <gmaxwell> genjix: I saw your initial post when it went up and thought it sounded good. Glad to here its come so far.
1293 2011-12-19 21:33:57 <sipa> genjix: can you verify block 158216 ?
1294 2011-12-19 21:34:28 <genjix> sipa: no idea. haven't tested it that far yet because been making a bdb blockchain plugin snce around block 152k
1295 2011-12-19 21:34:28 <sipa> (first block with a compressed pubkey tx)
1296 2011-12-19 21:34:38 <genjix> ah probably not yet then.
1297 2011-12-19 21:34:51 <sipa> if you use openssl, probably you will
1298 2011-12-19 21:35:01 <sipa> unless you have size checks on pubkeys
1299 2011-12-19 21:35:05 <gmaxwell> bdb blockchain plugin... oy. ;)
1300 2011-12-19 21:35:19 <_Fireball> well, I'll start the futures exchange, and if it goes well,there is absolutely no problem to add currency exchange to the trading engine behind it. But the question is whether people want it or not.
1301 2011-12-19 21:35:23 <genjix> yeah i was using postgres
1302 2011-12-19 21:35:28 <genjix> but it has some problem
1303 2011-12-19 21:35:43 <genjix> reading prevouts is fast fast fast SLOW fast fast fast SLOW
1304 2011-12-19 21:36:04 <gmaxwell> bdb has unfunness too. :( like super long startup times reading the indexes.
1305 2011-12-19 21:37:10 <genjix> bitcoin loads the block headers into memory. not sure why it does that
1306 2011-12-19 21:37:35 <gmaxwell> cold-cache from spinning disk I think we're taking over a minute now.
1307 2011-12-19 21:37:45 <gmaxwell> oh hm.
1308 2011-12-19 21:38:19 <genjix> especially since the bottleneck is reading txs
1309 2011-12-19 21:38:22 <gmaxwell> on a pretty fast spinning disk system...
1310 2011-12-19 21:38:22 <gmaxwell>  block index           96545ms
1311 2011-12-19 21:38:26 <genjix> which it doesnt preload
1312 2011-12-19 21:38:50 <gmaxwell> (after a reboot so the OS caches were totally cold)
1313 2011-12-19 21:39:31 <gmaxwell>  addresses             11239ms
1314 2011-12-19 21:39:44 <gmaxwell> pretty embarassing.
1315 2011-12-19 21:40:27 <sipa> we really need to rework that addresses part
1316 2011-12-19 21:41:41 <gmaxwell> Just be glad no one is attacking it yet.
1317 2011-12-19 21:41:46 <BlueMatt> well everyone is busy reworking tx scripting and focusing on new things...
1318 2011-12-19 21:41:50 * gmaxwell shoves beans up his nose
1319 2011-12-19 21:42:00 <BlueMatt> ?
1320 2011-12-19 21:42:43 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1321 2011-12-19 21:42:50 <phantomcircuit> he's focused on shoving beans up his nose
1322 2011-12-19 21:42:54 <phantomcircuit> no time for performance issues
1323 2011-12-19 21:42:59 * phantomcircuit runs
1324 2011-12-19 21:43:04 <gmaxwell> Wikipedia culture phrase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_stuff_beans_up_your_nose
1325 2011-12-19 21:43:09 <tcatm> genjix: the tv..confirmed headline is not really clear
1326 2011-12-19 21:43:29 <genjix> tcatm: i'll correct it.
1327 2011-12-19 21:44:05 <genjix> wait, how so? 'Bitcoin TV episode CONFIRMED!!!'
1328 2011-12-19 21:44:07 <gmaxwell> (In reference to the fact that my pointing out that addr.dat handling is DOSable might cause someone to DOS it...)
1329 2011-12-19 21:44:44 <phantomcircuit> genjix, is the storage interface in libbitcoin synchronous or asynchronous?
1330 2011-12-19 21:45:00 <phantomcircuit> synchronous right
1331 2011-12-19 21:45:20 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not quite.
1332 2011-12-19 21:45:46 <genjix> phantomcircuit: no async
1333 2011-12-19 21:45:53 <genjix> nothing in libbitcoin blocks EVER
1334 2011-12-19 21:46:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: assuming best practices of 6 confirms and alarms on massing hashpower dropoffs, such a fork would be noticed :p
1335 2011-12-19 21:47:27 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it wouldn't in a hypothetical future where, say 30% of mining power were using that code to validate.
1336 2011-12-19 21:47:47 <tcatm> genjix: maybe 'TV episode featuring Bitcoin confirmed'
1337 2011-12-19 21:48:05 <genjix> tcatm: good idea
1338 2011-12-19 21:48:28 <genjix> tcatm: when i go to change it i get 'Permission denied'
1339 2011-12-19 21:48:49 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: then you don't even have to worry about mining to conduct your attack.. spend a txn that forks, then spend away on the two forks.. it's not unlikely that you could get 6 blocks before the miners noticed they were on a fork.. you can't alarm on losing 70% for 6 blocks just because you'll false alarm on bad luck.
1340 2011-12-19 21:49:17 <gavinandresen> what TV show?  Good Wife?
1341 2011-12-19 21:49:49 dissipate has joined
1342 2011-12-19 21:50:02 <tcatm> genjix: I've changed it. For now, you have write-only access but I'll grant you more access in a few weeks :)
1343 2011-12-19 21:50:04 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, yes
1344 2011-12-19 21:50:35 <genjix> ok
1345 2011-12-19 21:50:37 caedes_ has quit (Excess Flood)
1346 2011-12-19 21:50:54 <genjix> gavinandresen: http://bitcoinmedia.com/bitcoin-tv-episode-confirmed
1347 2011-12-19 21:51:06 caedes_ has joined
1348 2011-12-19 21:51:33 <gavinandresen> Cool!  I talked to the writers a few weeks ago....
1349 2011-12-19 21:52:02 iocor has joined
1350 2011-12-19 21:52:07 <gmaxwell> hopefully they won't make the cryptocoin obviously illegal in order to build the plot.
1351 2011-12-19 21:52:17 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr blknotify * ra1775069d00c bitcoind-personal/src/ (init.cpp main.cpp): Execute a command when best block changes (-blknotify=<cmd>) http://tinyurl.com/d7n8wrq
1352 2011-12-19 21:53:20 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: speaking of naming nits... shouldn't that be -blocknotify ?  or -blkntfy ?
1353 2011-12-19 21:53:48 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I don't care. -blknotify looks nicest to me
1354 2011-12-19 21:54:06 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I dont care bitcoin-qt looks nicest to me
1355 2011-12-19 21:54:31 <gavinandresen> I do actually care about consistency in RPC commands and command-line arguments, just so they're easier to remember.
1356 2011-12-19 21:54:35 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: there's a difference between being wrong, and a matter of aesthetics
1357 2011-12-19 21:54:44 <BlueMatt> heh
1358 2011-12-19 21:54:44 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so tell me what to make it
1359 2011-12-19 21:55:25 <luke-jr> maybe I should change -rpcconnect to -remoteprocedurecallconnect too :P
1360 2011-12-19 21:55:35 <luke-jr> or -paytxfee to -pytxf
1361 2011-12-19 21:55:46 <luke-jr> really, there's no consistency besides "easy to use" right now ;)
1362 2011-12-19 21:56:04 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1363 2011-12-19 21:57:33 <gmaxwell> but we use 'rpc' when we talk not 'remote procedure call'
1364 2011-12-19 21:57:52 <nanotube> gavinandresen: wait, so the good wife bitcoin episode is for real?
1365 2011-12-19 21:57:58 <gavinandresen> nanotube: yes
1366 2011-12-19 21:58:35 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I think it aught to be "block"   --  and paytxfee should be paytxnfee  (because we use 'txn' abbreviated elsewhere)
1367 2011-12-19 21:59:16 <nanotube> gavinandresen: awesome :) any timeframe on when that might be coming out?
1368 2011-12-19 21:59:21 <gavinandresen> ... and the rule could be "if it saves more than N characters then it is OK to abbreviate"  where n is len(transaction) - len(txn)
1369 2011-12-19 21:59:36 <gavinandresen> nanotube: see the link genjix posted
1370 2011-12-19 21:59:50 <nanotube> oh, missed that heh
1371 2011-12-19 21:59:53 <gavinandresen> ... which say Jan 15
1372 2011-12-19 22:00:25 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: 'blk' abbreviates 'block' quite a bit too :p
1373 2011-12-19 22:00:43 <luke-jr> genjix: I guess BIPs are a failure, since even when we get a standard, nobody wants to comply with it.
1374 2011-12-19 22:01:27 <nanotube> genjix: "illegally invented" does that even make sense? :)
1375 2011-12-19 22:01:36 <gavinandresen> Well, that BIP didnt' follow the process-- supposed to have an implementation before it goes to 'accepted'
1376 2011-12-19 22:01:51 <nanotube> gavinandresen: nice nice :) looking forward to it. i'll make an effort to watch that particular episode :)
1377 2011-12-19 22:02:07 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: pretty sure there's an implementation. in fact, I even submitted a pull request for it.
1378 2011-12-19 22:02:23 <gavinandresen> Anybody mind if I remove all #ifdef __BORLAND_C__ from the source?
1379 2011-12-19 22:04:50 <BlueMatt> why bother?
1380 2011-12-19 22:05:00 <gavinandresen> I'm in a "clean up the code" mood
1381 2011-12-19 22:05:26 <gavinandresen> ... and it implies that we actually support compiling with borland
1382 2011-12-19 22:05:32 <BlueMatt> fair enough
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1386 2011-12-19 22:12:26 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr blknotify * r9f1d3214f7a6 bitcoind-personal/src/ (init.cpp main.cpp): Execute a command when best block changes (-blocknotify=<cmd>) http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/9f1d3214f7a6af92a73e0c4b4e24d8346f23f8ed
1387 2011-12-19 22:16:02 dikidera is now known as diki
1388 2011-12-19 22:20:50 <BlueMatt> hallelujah http://www.theverge.com/2011/12/19/2647291/at-t-kills-t-mobile-merger-plans
1389 2011-12-19 22:21:26 DiabloD3 is now known as Diablo-D3
1390 2011-12-19 22:21:47 _Fireball has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!)
1391 2011-12-19 22:22:35 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r4128e3ddadd8 / (12 files in 6 dirs): bdb store blocks and order. stub verify hook. http://tinyurl.com/7848uc3
1392 2011-12-19 22:22:36 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r872db657e685 / (11 files in 5 dirs): Merge branch 'bdb' http://tinyurl.com/794smq8
1393 2011-12-19 22:23:47 da2ce7 has joined
1394 2011-12-19 22:26:33 <TD> currently I have 4 DNS seeds
1395 2011-12-19 22:26:43 <TD> matts, jeffs, sipas and luke-jrs. am i missing any?
1396 2011-12-19 22:26:49 <TD> i took out vladimirs
1397 2011-12-19 22:27:37 <Diablo-D3> you should take out luke's too
1398 2011-12-19 22:28:30 MimeNarrator has joined
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1400 2011-12-19 22:28:40 <TD> why?
1401 2011-12-19 22:29:32 <luke-jr> TD: Diablo-D3 is a troll :p
1402 2011-12-19 22:29:51 <Diablo-D3> td: luke cant be trusted to keep his shit up.
1403 2011-12-19 22:30:31 <luke-jr> actually, if your stuff blows up because a DNS seed is down, Diablo-D3 might have a point. :p
1404 2011-12-19 22:30:46 <luke-jr> my DNS isn't down much, but I make no guarantees
1405 2011-12-19 22:31:33 <BlueMatt> TD: thats right
1406 2011-12-19 22:32:02 <TD> good
1407 2011-12-19 22:32:10 <TD> doesn't need to be 100% reliable. just needs to not serve bogus answers.
1408 2011-12-19 22:32:11 <BlueMatt> TD: assuming bitcoinj doesnt favor nodes which are included in dnsseeds twice (or more)
1409 2011-12-19 22:35:28 <TD> i should check that
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1412 2011-12-19 22:36:50 <genjix> TD: are those dns seeds kept up to date somewhere? i may want to use them.
1413 2011-12-19 22:37:12 <TD> well, i just have a hard coded list
1414 2011-12-19 22:37:15 <TD> same as the regular client
1415 2011-12-19 22:39:32 <luke-jr> let's put a txt file on bitcoin.org with the latest DNS seeds! the client can even use libcurl to download it
1416 2011-12-19 22:39:37 <luke-jr> </sarcasm>
1417 2011-12-19 22:41:26 elkingrey has joined
1418 2011-12-19 22:44:40 <sipa> maybe we need a master DNS seed that resolves that has 4 CNAME entries pointing to the other DNS seeds!
1419 2011-12-19 22:44:48 <sipa> (can you have multiple CNAME's ?)
1420 2011-12-19 22:45:13 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I think so
1421 2011-12-19 22:46:15 <TD> better to have some hard-coded lists
1422 2011-12-19 22:47:50 <sipa> TD: sure, i wasn't seriously promoting even more centralization :)
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1425 2011-12-19 22:50:16 da2ce7 has joined
1426 2011-12-19 22:52:21 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r198c42e7de3e /src/util/elliptic_curve_key.cpp: std::vector: &foo[0] -> foo.data() http://tinyurl.com/d74nftd
1427 2011-12-19 22:52:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: multiple CNAMES: by spec and some masters no, but most resolvers and some masters will let you
1428 2011-12-19 22:52:32 <genjix> tbh i dont think sipa's idea is that bad
1429 2011-12-19 22:52:49 <genjix> i mean a getting started list for new clients
1430 2011-12-19 22:53:10 <BlueMatt> (IIRC)
1431 2011-12-19 22:53:54 <genjix> instead of me hunting through bitcoinjava and satoshi sourcecode
1432 2011-12-19 22:55:04 <sipa> imho the best place is the wiki for that
1433 2011-12-19 22:55:14 <rjk2> how about this: a hardcoded list of known stable (trusted?) nodes (as usual), and one or more nodes that offers up a list of "other" nodes (new, unstable, testing, etc)
1434 2011-12-19 22:55:31 <rjk2> hybrid
1435 2011-12-19 22:55:46 <rjk2> for lack of a better term
1436 2011-12-19 22:56:35 <rjk2> for instance, using round-robin
1437 2011-12-19 22:56:56 <cjdelisle> the gnutella/edonkey method is pretty neat, you find a nodelist whereever and paste it in
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1439 2011-12-19 22:57:36 <cjdelisle> unfortunately bitcoin network isn't self sustaining without a constant influx of nodes from irc
1440 2011-12-19 22:58:44 <genjix> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/15/bitcoin_flaw/
1441 2011-12-19 22:58:46 <genjix> hey cjdelisle
1442 2011-12-19 22:58:49 freewil has joined
1443 2011-12-19 22:59:01 * cjdelisle waves
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1446 2011-12-19 22:59:19 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: since when, irc hasnt been necessary since dnsseeds were added
1447 2011-12-19 22:59:24 <cjdelisle> the register -> worse than /.
1448 2011-12-19 22:59:28 <genjix> oh it's an old story
1449 2011-12-19 22:59:32 <genjix> trash too
1450 2011-12-19 22:59:35 <cjdelisle> /nod
1451 2011-12-19 22:59:42 <BlueMatt> its the m$ research paper...
1452 2011-12-19 22:59:43 Raziel_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1453 2011-12-19 22:59:50 <BlueMatt> ...wow
1454 2011-12-19 23:00:16 <genjix> yeah what a load of tosh
1455 2011-12-19 23:00:36 <cjdelisle> BlueMatt: the problem I'm referring to is that without constantly reseeding, the network falls apart, you can easily see this by the fact that incoming connections decrease over time instead of staying stable..
1456 2011-12-19 23:01:40 GMP has joined
1457 2011-12-19 23:01:43 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: that is an indication of how irc is handled, not that the network falls apart if you dont keep rejoining the network
1458 2011-12-19 23:02:00 <sipa> i hope we can drop IRC somewhere in the future
1459 2011-12-19 23:02:00 <BlueMatt> (dnsseeds will keep you in the dnsseed as long as you are up)
1460 2011-12-19 23:02:05 <BlueMatt> why havent we yet?
1461 2011-12-19 23:02:43 <sipa> heh
1462 2011-12-19 23:02:50 <sipa> good question
1463 2011-12-19 23:03:01 <BlueMatt> (there should be support for dnsseeding if we fall below x nodes ,not just at startup though)
1464 2011-12-19 23:03:10 <sipa> true
1465 2011-12-19 23:03:18 <sipa> and maybe for discouraging dnsseed-found nodes
1466 2011-12-19 23:03:25 <cjdelisle> I would suggest fixing the way nodes introduce other nodes to eachother but I don't have time to make a patch so I will stop talking now.
1467 2011-12-19 23:03:30 <sipa> so not everybody only connects to dnsseeds
1468 2011-12-19 23:03:52 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: whats broken about it?
1469 2011-12-19 23:04:01 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: no one ever has patches around here, just talk ;)
1470 2011-12-19 23:04:31 <cjdelisle> connection count drops over time so it looks broken to me -- but anyway sorry for bugging you
1471 2011-12-19 23:05:03 <BlueMatt> again, that is due to the way irc is done, nothing else
1472 2011-12-19 23:05:18 <BlueMatt> connection count is only ever above 8 if you are a seed node to other nodes
1473 2011-12-19 23:05:32 <BlueMatt> with dnsseeds its a bit better, but you still get more connections if you recently joined irc
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1477 2011-12-19 23:07:48 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, yeah i can confirm that last bit,  have a node on a srsbiz server which only sees about 300 simultaneous connections
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1479 2011-12-19 23:08:13 <phantomcircuit> mostly because i  would have to add a specific exemption for irc traffic
1480 2011-12-19 23:08:41 <BlueMatt> so you are -noirc and still get 300 connections?
1481 2011-12-19 23:09:23 <phantomcircuit> yes
1482 2011-12-19 23:09:27 <BlueMatt> nice
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1484 2011-12-19 23:09:31 <phantomcircuit> degrades overtime though
1485 2011-12-19 23:09:34 <BlueMatt> on unmodified bitcoind?
1486 2011-12-19 23:09:43 <phantomcircuit> git HEAD
1487 2011-12-19 23:09:50 <BlueMatt> nice
1488 2011-12-19 23:09:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think we really need to strenghten the addr handling before dropping IRC. I'm concerned that IRC may be hiding other problems we have. (also concerned that its creating partitioning, but better the ill we know)
1489 2011-12-19 23:10:31 <gmaxwell> I also think we should probably turn off IRC gradually.. e.g. changing it so that it doesn't stay on IRC unless the node knows that its a functioning listener.
1490 2011-12-19 23:11:01 <gmaxwell> (that takes basically a four line patch to kill the IRC thread off if there haven't been incoming connections)
1491 2011-12-19 23:11:21 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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1493 2011-12-19 23:14:47 <genjix> i never imagined my .vimrc would become this massive when i first started using vim
1494 2011-12-19 23:14:56 <genjix> but you get carried away
1495 2011-12-19 23:15:20 <genjix> 1 line at a time
1496 2011-12-19 23:15:41 BlueMatt has joined
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1498 2011-12-19 23:20:08 <BlueMatt> the following is in error:
1499 2011-12-19 23:20:10 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #138: ABORTED in 3 hr 37 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/138/
1500 2011-12-19 23:20:34 <BlueMatt> thank you for your time
1501 2011-12-19 23:23:37 <ageis> genjix: what .vimrc do you use?
1502 2011-12-19 23:30:34 <genjix> ageis: http://privatepaste.com/f8842d4da4
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1507 2011-12-19 23:32:32 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
1508 2011-12-19 23:34:54 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #139: FAILURE in 14 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/139/
1509 2011-12-19 23:34:55 <BlueMattBot> * runesvend: When using Qt GUI, move parameter-parsing to start of qt/bitcoin.cpp:main()
1510 2011-12-19 23:34:55 <BlueMattBot> * luke-jr+git: Add blockhash and blockindex to transaction info
1511 2011-12-19 23:35:11 <BlueMatt> wtf?
1512 2011-12-19 23:35:41 <BlueMatt> my fault...I guess?
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