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  19 2011-12-31 00:57:22 <midnightmagic> kaminsky's 28c3 talk is brutal ..
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  22 2011-12-31 01:07:40 <edcba> about bitcoin ?
  23 2011-12-31 01:12:46 <lianj> only first couple of minutes are about bitcoin
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  26 2011-12-31 01:16:41 <doublec> midnightmagic: brutal in what way?
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  31 2011-12-31 01:23:40 <Joric> midnightmagic, can't find 28c3 + kaminsky on youtube resuls seem unrelevant
  32 2011-12-31 01:24:03 <Joric> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RifYnSKSkvk that one ?
  33 2011-12-31 01:26:11 <lianj> yes
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  35 2011-12-31 01:41:12 <Joric> oh god he's driving the price down
  36 2011-12-31 01:41:54 <Joric> nope it's still 4.2 nevermind
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  39 2011-12-31 01:52:26 <Joric> is there really a problem of an uncontrolling blockchain growth?
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  48 2011-12-31 02:02:46 <luke-jr> Joric: hm?
  49 2011-12-31 02:03:53 <luke-jr> this guy sounds like an idiot
  50 2011-12-31 02:04:15 <Joric> he looks like an idiot too but that's not the point
  51 2011-12-31 02:04:33 <Joric> how fast does blockchain grow? are there any speed limits?
  52 2011-12-31 02:04:42 <luke-jr> 1 MB per block
  53 2011-12-31 02:04:46 <luke-jr> is the limit
  54 2011-12-31 02:05:17 <vsrinivas> nominally 6 blocks per hr solved; however clients store more in their blockchain data files.
  55 2011-12-31 02:05:30 <luke-jr> not much more
  56 2011-12-31 02:05:41 <luke-jr> so 144 MB/day max
  57 2011-12-31 02:07:09 <vsrinivas> there's no particular limit to someone sending out tons of diff=1 blocks, is there? ; nodes will dutifully store those in excess of the above limit.
  58 2011-12-31 02:07:55 <vsrinivas> ah, nvm, there is the checkpoint stuff.
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  60 2011-12-31 02:12:22 <onelineproof> eventually the chain will be pruned, I thought
  61 2011-12-31 02:15:46 <luke-jr> this idiot is overlooking the fact that Bitcoin was designed with the "banking model" in the long run
  62 2011-12-31 02:15:56 <luke-jr> and the important thing is that none of the banks can just print more money
  63 2011-12-31 02:19:31 <tcatm> that's just wrong. the paper assumed every node to mine bitcoins.
  64 2011-12-31 02:22:02 <luke-jr> when the blockchain forks, we should declare the ASCII art spam "gone" just for these idiots
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  68 2011-12-31 02:41:06 <coderrr> at least he added that fact that supernodes/banks cant print money since the last time he did that talk
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  81 2011-12-31 03:21:48 <onelineproof> a mining pool is like a supernode, but everyone contributes
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  90 2011-12-31 04:04:33 <midnightmagic> doublec: brutal because 1. he is speaking about claims supposedly made that were not (re:anonymity), and then the way he mocks the developers for seemingly putting features in thrre that were deisgned to be aninymity, and specifically calling the "new" non-anonymity stance of gavin an admission of utter failure.
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  92 2011-12-31 04:05:41 <doublec> ah ok
  93 2011-12-31 04:06:19 <midnightmagic> doublec: also brutal in delivery, rude, shrill, falsely exasperated, gloating, gleeful in the brutality of what he perceives to be failures
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  95 2011-12-31 04:08:11 <midnightmagic> lots of distracting physical tics.. i would have trouble interacting with someone with so little personal refinement, if that is how he is like in real life. :( but primarily because he is making unfounded value judgements based on sweeping overgeneralisations..
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  98 2011-12-31 04:09:11 <midnightmagic> i mean i can handle cerebral palsy NO problem if the mind behind it is civil.
  99 2011-12-31 04:11:06 <midnightmagic> i do value his contributions otherwise though, so i suppose there's just some cognitive dissonance going on there.
 100 2011-12-31 04:11:43 <cjdelisle> welcome to the whitehat industry
 101 2011-12-31 04:12:05 <cjdelisle> they put bread on the table by crying BuuuuuuUUUUUUUUUuuuuuUUUUuug
 102 2011-12-31 04:13:04 <midnightmagic> he's whitehat?! that surprises me the way he was cavalierly implying he had access to huge botnets..
 103 2011-12-31 04:13:45 * luke-jr glares at genjix for encouraging illegal activity with Bitcoin
 104 2011-12-31 04:13:55 <midnightmagic> what now?
 105 2011-12-31 04:14:25 <cjdelisle> and yea, he's always been like that, re DNS where djb had fixed that problem ten years earlier.
 106 2011-12-31 04:14:36 <midnightmagic> gone back to the cam thing has he?
 107 2011-12-31 04:14:38 <luke-jr> http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/money-shiny-new-coins-1.404597
 108 2011-12-31 04:14:44 <luke-jr> "Above all, explains Amir Taaki, chairman of Bitcoin Consultancy and one of the leading developers, the system is decentralized. In other words, the money belongs to the user, and no government or commercial body can take it from him. As an example, Taaki mentions an Iranian friend whose contributions to open-source nonprofit organizations were rejected because of the U.S. embargo. "Nobody will tell me not to send money to someone
 109 2011-12-31 04:14:46 <luke-jr> in Iran when I use Bitcoin," says Taaki."
 110 2011-12-31 04:15:49 <midnightmagic> geh..
 111 2011-12-31 04:16:10 <luke-jr> crap like that screams "please ban Bitcoin!"
 112 2011-12-31 04:16:33 <cjdelisle> it's a use case, something btc is severly lacking atm
 113 2011-12-31 04:16:36 <luke-jr> it also calls into question if Bitcoin Consultancy's code is legal
 114 2011-12-31 04:17:28 <midnightmagic> cjdelisle: whew. i had to grit my teeth to watch the whole thing through
 115 2011-12-31 04:17:32 <justmoon> did he know that he was talking to an Israeli newspaper when he used the Iran example?
 116 2011-12-31 04:17:45 <midnightmagic> but the bitcoin analysis talk was great!
 117 2011-12-31 04:18:11 <luke-jr> justmoon: really? epic idiocy
 118 2011-12-31 04:18:56 <justmoon> it was a question, the link you sent is an israeli newspaper, but they might have quoted him from somewhere
 119 2011-12-31 04:19:05 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: what would you expect?
 120 2011-12-31 04:19:30 <luke-jr> "During those difficult moments, the Bitcoin community turned to its founder and creator, Nakamura, from whom they had last heard in April 2011, before the hack. When he refused to reveal himself, the conspiracy theories were not long in coming. Nakamura was suspected of belonging to some government organization, and of being the Bernie Madoff of the new Ponzi scheme: the Bitcoin. He was accused of mining coins when they had no
 121 2011-12-31 04:19:32 <luke-jr> value, in order to redeem them with complete anonymity later on."
 122 2011-12-31 04:19:33 <luke-jr> wtf?
 123 2011-12-31 04:20:06 <justmoon> "Nakamura" <- nice touch
 124 2011-12-31 04:20:07 <rjk2> wat ees dis shit?
 125 2011-12-31 04:21:07 <midnightmagic> easy way to mock the story for getting such a majir detail wrong
 126 2011-12-31 04:21:10 <luke-jr> "Taaki says that even the hack that enabled the fiasco at Mt. Gox was discovered by his team three days earlier, but despite the warning, the site did not take care of the problem."
 127 2011-12-31 04:21:24 <luke-jr> 1. not cool to hack your competition
 128 2011-12-31 04:21:29 <midnightmagic> whoah
 129 2011-12-31 04:21:31 <luke-jr> 2. IIRC, the leaked db was much older than 3 days]
 130 2011-12-31 04:22:33 <midnightmagic> there was so much disinfirmation about that it's no longer possible to sort out the truth. idiots making claims without actually having seen or verified ANYthing themselves personally.
 131 2011-12-31 04:23:26 <justmoon> "The first business to accept Bitcoin as a means of payment was a Massachusetts farmer who sold alpaca wool socks for a modest number of coins." <- is that actually true? he was early, but I don't think he can be called *the* first
 132 2011-12-31 04:23:43 <luke-jr> justmoon: could have been
 133 2011-12-31 04:24:01 <justmoon> hmm, learn something new every day
 134 2011-12-31 04:24:37 <luke-jr> anyhow, I think one thing is clear:
 135 2011-12-31 04:24:45 <luke-jr> no matter what kind of press it is, Bitcoin goes up :P
 136 2011-12-31 04:24:52 <midnightmagic> :-)
 137 2011-12-31 04:24:59 <justmoon> well, overall I think the article is pretty positive
 138 2011-12-31 04:25:06 <justmoon> "Just as various countries such as Iran and Syria are closing their gates to foreigners and the commissions charged by various banks and intermediaries are particularly high, Bitcoin should definitely be considered a legitimate option for commerce."
 139 2011-12-31 04:25:16 <justmoon> they actually kind of agreed with Amir's example, lol :)
 140 2011-12-31 04:25:44 <luke-jr> they won't be the ones making the law to ban Bitcoin
 141 2011-12-31 04:26:02 <luke-jr> though I expect Israel will be one of the first to ban it
 142 2011-12-31 04:26:13 <luke-jr> sorry, "Israel"
 143 2011-12-31 04:26:22 <midnightmagic> you think so? they didn't ban lindens
 144 2011-12-31 04:26:23 <cjdelisle> HAHA
 145 2011-12-31 04:26:36 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: Lindens don't compete with the banks
 146 2011-12-31 04:26:46 <cjdelisle> luke-jr: if "they" banned btc, it might hurt your business but it would do wonders for btc as a whole.
 147 2011-12-31 04:27:00 <midnightmagic> same thing required to convert to local currency though
 148 2011-12-31 04:27:06 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: that comparison is only useful for *existing* laws; new laws can target Bitcoin specifically
 149 2011-12-31 04:27:06 <cjdelisle> a ban is a last resort tactic which indicates they're really scared
 150 2011-12-31 04:27:15 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: you assume
 151 2011-12-31 04:27:36 <luke-jr> no legitimate business/person will use Bitcoin if it's illegla
 152 2011-12-31 04:27:36 <cjdelisle> first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 153 2011-12-31 04:28:17 [\\\] is now known as imsaguy
 154 2011-12-31 04:28:18 <cjdelisle> well if church was banned then no legitimate person would goto church :P
 155 2011-12-31 04:28:30 <luke-jr> the Catholic Church cannot be banned.
 156 2011-12-31 04:28:50 <cjdelisle> As with btc
 157 2011-12-31 04:28:52 <luke-jr> no
 158 2011-12-31 04:28:58 <rjk2> because is is p2p! :P
 159 2011-12-31 04:29:01 <luke-jr> Bitcoin can very easily be banned.
 160 2011-12-31 04:29:03 <luke-jr> rjk2: it isn't p2p
 161 2011-12-31 04:29:11 <rjk2> spread the good word
 162 2011-12-31 04:29:13 <cjdelisle> And because it is not doing anything wrong.
 163 2011-12-31 04:29:18 <rjk2> from person to person
 164 2011-12-31 04:29:24 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: if a law passes banning it, it is wrong
 165 2011-12-31 04:29:32 <luke-jr> nobody has a right to Bitcoin
 166 2011-12-31 04:29:38 <midnightmagic> i've ALWAYS said that the illegal trade hurts the currency in the long run. stupid silk road anyway..
 167 2011-12-31 04:30:28 <cjdelisle> I know right from wrong and I don't need to consult the words of corrupt politicians and lawyers.
 168 2011-12-31 04:30:30 <justmoon> luke-jr: there are legal rights and natural rights. free speech is a natural right, so by that standard using bitcoin can never be morally wrong.
 169 2011-12-31 04:31:05 <luke-jr> "free speech" is not a right at all
 170 2011-12-31 04:31:20 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: disobedience is wrong
 171 2011-12-31 04:31:25 <midnightmagic>  i wonder when they're going to decloak silk road.. i'm guessing tney would need the help of one of the exchanges, or silk road would have to eschew the use of an exchange.. i wonder how they dispose of the bitcoins they tax.
 172 2011-12-31 04:31:30 <cjdelisle> luke-jr: how do you know?
 173 2011-12-31 04:31:54 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: the same way anyone can know morality: the Church teaches it
 174 2011-12-31 04:31:54 <justmoon> luke-jr: of course it is, we are born with the ability to speak, but no way to derive a right to forbid others from speaking amongst themselves
 175 2011-12-31 04:31:59 <cjdelisle> I tell you it is right, are you going to disobey me by contradicting me?
 176 2011-12-31 04:32:10 <midnightmagic> lol
 177 2011-12-31 04:32:13 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: you hold no authority.
 178 2011-12-31 04:32:46 <luke-jr> justmoon: ability != right
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 182 2011-12-31 04:33:03 <lfm> disobedience is absolutly required sometimes
 183 2011-12-31 04:33:18 <luke-jr> lfm: not the sin of disobedience, no.
 184 2011-12-31 04:33:37 <midnightmagic> civil disobedience is the duty of every citizen who lives under an unjust law
 185 2011-12-31 04:33:48 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: all laws are just by default
 186 2011-12-31 04:33:54 <luke-jr> an unjust law is one which contradicts a higher law.
 187 2011-12-31 04:34:01 <luke-jr> which banning Bitcoin does not.
 188 2011-12-31 04:34:08 <midnightmagic> the syrian people would disagree with you
 189 2011-12-31 04:34:16 <luke-jr> then they are wrong
 190 2011-12-31 04:34:20 * cjdelisle wishes that one day luke would drop the trolling act for a few minuted
 191 2011-12-31 04:34:23 <lfm> so if a preist tells you to diddle a child, you are required to obey?
 192 2011-12-31 04:34:43 <luke-jr> lfm: a priest does not have the authority to tell you that.
 193 2011-12-31 04:34:44 <midnightmagic> the families of the chopped-up syrians especially would probably disagree with you
 194 2011-12-31 04:34:57 <luke-jr> lfm: the sin of disobedience implies an authoritative command
 195 2011-12-31 04:35:02 <justmoon> luke-jr: ability != right is correct, but it does not follow that another person can restrict your speech
 196 2011-12-31 04:35:06 <midnightmagic> additionally, what about laws in a country which cintradict the laws in anither?
 197 2011-12-31 04:35:19 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: countries have local jurisdiction only
 198 2011-12-31 04:35:38 <lfm> so you dont have to obey if the order is unauthorized / illegal
 199 2011-12-31 04:35:39 <justmoon> luke-jr: calling it a right is a mere abbreviation of the observation that noone has the right to stop you from using your natural ability
 200 2011-12-31 04:35:56 <luke-jr> lfm: it wouldn't be disobedience to ignore it, right
 201 2011-12-31 04:35:58 <midnightmagic> you realise of course that your simplification is forcing you into an absurd position?
 202 2011-12-31 04:36:09 <luke-jr> justmoon: except that the State and Church do have that authority.
 203 2011-12-31 04:36:21 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: nothing absurd about it
 204 2011-12-31 04:36:35 <lfm> perhaps banning bitcoin is unconstitutional so then we would not have to obey
 205 2011-12-31 04:37:40 <Diablo-D3> hey guys
 206 2011-12-31 04:37:49 <Diablo-D3> can sandy bridge gpus run opencl?
 207 2011-12-31 04:37:59 <Diablo-D3> thats the only ones, right?
 208 2011-12-31 04:38:22 <vsrinivas> only ones from Intel, yes.
 209 2011-12-31 04:38:38 <Diablo-D3> k, just making sure.
 210 2011-12-31 04:39:47 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: not on Linux
 211 2011-12-31 04:40:02 <midnightmagic> the syrian laws are made by syrian authoritarian regimes, and they allow the government to murder people lawfully. to say that laws are by definition just is to ignore like.. a thousand or more years of legal philosophy, and to legitimize the authority of illegitimate givernments merely because they had the power to sieze it.
 212 2011-12-31 04:40:16 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: not by definition. by default.
 213 2011-12-31 04:40:30 <midnightmagic> explai!
 214 2011-12-31 04:40:41 <midnightmagic> err.. explain..?
 215 2011-12-31 04:40:42 <luke-jr> I already did.
 216 2011-12-31 04:40:48 <luke-jr> unless the law contradicts a higher law, it is just.
 217 2011-12-31 04:41:06 <luke-jr> lfm gave an example, if it were to violate an unrepealed constitution
 218 2011-12-31 04:41:12 <luke-jr> unfortunately, the USA has no such constitution
 219 2011-12-31 04:41:20 <justmoon> luke-jr: church - inventing fairy tales does not give you special rights in the real world. state - nobody can delegate authority that they don't have themselves.
 220 2011-12-31 04:41:26 <midnightmagic> the contradiction is not resolved.
 221 2011-12-31 04:41:28 <luke-jr> the only constitution it had, was overturned by the "Civil War"
 222 2011-12-31 04:41:40 <midnightmagic> who says a constitution is repealed?
 223 2011-12-31 04:41:43 <luke-jr> justmoon: nothing fairy tale about it
 224 2011-12-31 04:42:16 <midnightmagic> who has the right to make the laws which people must abide by?
 225 2011-12-31 04:42:32 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the Church and State both have direct jurisdiction from God
 226 2011-12-31 04:42:55 <midnightmagic> what defines a legitimate state? who is legitimate in somalia for example?
 227 2011-12-31 04:43:05 <luke-jr> I'm not familiar with Somalia.
 228 2011-12-31 04:43:23 <midnightmagic> imagine multiple masses of people who all claim to be legitimate authority
 229 2011-12-31 04:43:43 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the first one, which serves the role.
 230 2011-12-31 04:43:47 <lfm> in solamia it is might makes right
 231 2011-12-31 04:44:07 <lfm> somalia
 232 2011-12-31 04:44:24 <midnightmagic> therefore you imply that by might does the syrian government have theright to kill its citizens
 233 2011-12-31 04:44:56 <lfm> that is the established wy of it there, like any kingdom or dictatorship
 234 2011-12-31 04:44:57 <luke-jr> States have the authority to execute criminals.
 235 2011-12-31 04:44:58 <midnightmagic> thereby the contradiction is nit resolved
 236 2011-12-31 04:44:59 <justmoon> luke-jr: even if it was true, it does not confer rights over others. if I don't arrive at the same religion as you out of free will, there is no other way you can apply your ethics to me than by force
 237 2011-12-31 04:45:48 <luke-jr> justmoon: subjectivism is not a way out
 238 2011-12-31 04:46:02 <luke-jr> justmoon: objectively, Catholicism is true and the Catholic Church holds authority.
 239 2011-12-31 04:46:15 <midnightmagic> i'm sorry, i do not believe the contradiction is resolved.. it is a moral absurdity.
 240 2011-12-31 04:46:29 <luke-jr> all men are subject to the Church, even if they live in disobedience.
 241 2011-12-31 04:47:01 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the State does not have authority to make just anything a crime punishable by death-- that authority is restricted to moral evils
 242 2011-12-31 04:47:02 <midnightmagic> that is a special pleading
 243 2011-12-31 04:47:28 <luke-jr> for example, a government does not have authority to execute someone for using Bitcoin
 244 2011-12-31 04:47:55 <midnightmagic> old testament included?
 245 2011-12-31 04:48:00 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: what?
 246 2011-12-31 04:48:13 <midnightmagic> no, wait, i keep forgetting you are progressive
 247 2011-12-31 04:48:17 <luke-jr> …
 248 2011-12-31 04:48:46 <midnightmagic> i infer you are saying that the moral authority as taught by the church supercedes state authority
 249 2011-12-31 04:48:59 <luke-jr> the Church is the sole authority for teaching morality.
 250 2011-12-31 04:49:13 <luke-jr> the State is the authority for civil harmony and protection
 251 2011-12-31 04:49:24 <luke-jr> Church teaches, State protects.
 252 2011-12-31 04:49:57 <lfm> luke: thats bull. lots of people teach morals without any authority from your church
 253 2011-12-31 04:50:15 <midnightmagic> are normal peoplr allowed to make morality judgements on their own that the church hasn't specifically stated?
 254 2011-12-31 04:50:19 <luke-jr> lfm: lots of people spread confusion and "teach" without authority
 255 2011-12-31 04:50:20 <justmoon> luke-jr: I'm not arguing subjectivism, I'm merely pointing out that you have no way to convince me of your ethics - if you want me to follow them, you have to use force - people like you have to fight other people like you over whose absolutism is correct. my position is that we have no right to apply our ethics to others other than defending their free will. the reason free will is objective is because it presuppose it when you state your ow
 256 2011-12-31 04:50:20 <justmoon> n position (e.g. belief in catholicism)
 257 2011-12-31 04:50:45 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: everyone is expected to apply the Church's teachings to their specific circumstances.
 258 2011-12-31 04:50:46 <justmoon> because you* presuppose it
 259 2011-12-31 04:51:04 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: in difficult cases, the Church can make authoritative rulings for them
 260 2011-12-31 04:51:36 <lfm> the number two rule of your church is like the pope is infallible and no one but catholic fanatics beleive that
 261 2011-12-31 04:51:47 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: and what are the choices when a person has found a law immoral, to use the term which you insist on defining rather tan the one we defalted to (unjust)
 262 2011-12-31 04:51:48 <luke-jr> justmoon: I don't presuppose it. I prove it to myself through research.
 263 2011-12-31 04:52:26 <luke-jr> lfm: the number one rule is the doctrines of the Church, including papal infallibility. someone who denies papal infallibility is not a Catholic
 264 2011-12-31 04:52:49 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the higher law must be followed.
 265 2011-12-31 04:53:18 <lfm> well 99% of the people who attend catholic church services are not catholics then by your definition
 266 2011-12-31 04:53:26 <luke-jr> lfm: you say it.
 267 2011-12-31 04:53:35 * rjk2 yawns
 268 2011-12-31 04:53:39 <rjk2> -dev?
 269 2011-12-31 04:53:49 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: now that i undwrstand that you are making a distinction in terminology, it seems as though we are actually saying the same thing.. it would seem to me that civil disobedience is following that hugher law
 270 2011-12-31 04:53:51 <luke-jr> lfm: in reality, 99% of the people who attend Catholic churches *do* accept papal infallibility.
 271 2011-12-31 04:53:54 <midnightmagic> err..  higher
 272 2011-12-31 04:54:08 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: except there is no higher law in the case of Bitcoin.
 273 2011-12-31 04:54:20 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the civil authority can ban Bitcoin
 274 2011-12-31 04:54:28 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: the only difference being what you and I consider is a higher law. :)
 275 2011-12-31 04:54:35 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: when/if that happens, everyone is bound to stop usign Bitcoin
 276 2011-12-31 04:54:43 <luke-jr> everyone in that jurisdiction*
 277 2011-12-31 04:54:52 <lfm> yes all fanatics think their rules are more important than any one else's
 278 2011-12-31 04:54:57 <cjdelisle> everyone who doesn't know right from wrong.
 279 2011-12-31 04:55:03 <midnightmagic> i'm glad i can count on you to agree that murder for speech is wrong then :)
 280 2011-12-31 04:55:10 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: depends on the speech.
 281 2011-12-31 04:55:20 <cjdelisle> That's what this all boils down to, people who don't know right from wrong defer to higher authorities.
 282 2011-12-31 04:55:24 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the State does have the authority, and in some cases the duty, to execute heretics.
 283 2011-12-31 04:55:31 <midnightmagic> syrian blogger speech rwquesting that citizen murders stop
 284 2011-12-31 04:55:31 <cjdelisle> If bitcoin is wrong then you shouldn't use it.
 285 2011-12-31 04:55:41 <midnightmagic> specifically :)
 286 2011-12-31 04:55:42 <cjdelisle> If bitcoin is right then the law against it is wrong
 287 2011-12-31 04:55:53 <cjdelisle> luke-jr: is bitcoin wrong?
 288 2011-12-31 04:55:54 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: disobedience is wrong.
 289 2011-12-31 04:56:04 <cjdelisle> is bitcoin wrong?
 290 2011-12-31 04:56:11 <luke-jr> the State can forbid things that are not inherently wrong.
 291 2011-12-31 04:56:29 <cjdelisle> they can but it would be wrong.
 292 2011-12-31 04:56:34 <luke-jr> no, it would'nt.
 293 2011-12-31 04:56:40 <midnightmagic> cjdelisle: he escapes it by using a different definition of the term disobedience than uou. it sounds like he doesn't fundamentally disagree with us.
 294 2011-12-31 04:56:43 <luke-jr> for an example, take eating meat on Fridays.
 295 2011-12-31 04:56:58 <luke-jr> there is nothing *inherently* wrong with eating meat on Friday
 296 2011-12-31 04:57:01 <cjdelisle> That's just a rule made to troll you :P
 297 2011-12-31 04:57:14 <luke-jr> but there is a law forbidding it
 298 2011-12-31 04:57:19 <luke-jr> breaking that law is disobedience
 299 2011-12-31 04:57:31 nathan7 has joined
 300 2011-12-31 04:57:38 <cjdelisle> the law is wrong so it is your duty not to follow it.
 301 2011-12-31 04:57:43 <midnightmagic> cjdelisle: the friday meat law?
 302 2011-12-31 04:57:46 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: no, there is nothing wrong with the law.
 303 2011-12-31 04:57:50 <TuxBlackEdo> i always thought that laws are made because the majority agrees the law must exist.. politicians don't make that call, the people should
 304 2011-12-31 04:57:53 <midnightmagic> FML.. awesome
 305 2011-12-31 04:58:00 <TuxBlackEdo> isn't this why jury nullification exists
 306 2011-12-31 04:58:07 <cjdelisle> /nod
 307 2011-12-31 04:58:19 <luke-jr> TuxBlackEdo: States have the authority to make that be their system of law making
 308 2011-12-31 04:58:27 <cjdelisle> If something is not wrong and then it's banned, it doesn't "become" wrong.
 309 2011-12-31 04:58:43 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: no, but disobedience of the law is wrong
 310 2011-12-31 04:58:44 <cjdelisle> If you're afraid of bitcoin being wrong, you shouldn't use it.
 311 2011-12-31 04:58:45 <lfm> tuxblackedo the majority only make laws in democracies. the church is not a democracy and sira is not either
 312 2011-12-31 04:59:08 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: unless the law is immoral, as you say
 313 2011-12-31 04:59:21 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: which banning Bitcoin is not.
 314 2011-12-31 04:59:36 <cjdelisle> And what this all boils down to is inability to tell right from wrong. Those who can tell right from wrong need not defer to politicians of clergy to regiment their lives.
 315 2011-12-31 05:00:10 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: nobody can tell right from wrong, except by heeding the Church's teachings
 316 2011-12-31 05:00:12 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: okay, but you've got to admit you understand what they mean.. we can't all be 100% pedantic or we wouldn't any of us get our point across
 317 2011-12-31 05:00:36 <cjdelisle> and inability to tell right from wrong is the legal definition of insanity.
 318 2011-12-31 05:00:43 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: no, it isn't.
 319 2011-12-31 05:00:58 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: otherwise, all non-Catholics are automatically legally insane.
 320 2011-12-31 05:01:00 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: rats seem to be able to tell some rights from wrongs naturally
 321 2011-12-31 05:01:03 <justmoon> http://memegenerator.net/instance/12723367
 322 2011-12-31 05:01:18 <midnightmagic> rats can laugh too
 323 2011-12-31 05:02:02 <cjdelisle> "A person is insane, and is not responsible for criminal conduct if, at the time of such conduct, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, he was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts"
 324 2011-12-31 05:02:10 <justmoon> luke-jr: your position is internally consistent, but so damn arbitary, what gives your church justification that ever other church doesn't have?
 325 2011-12-31 05:02:11 <cjdelisle> http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d029.htm
 326 2011-12-31 05:02:14 <cjdelisle> and there is it
 327 2011-12-31 05:02:32 nathan7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 328 2011-12-31 05:02:33 <cjdelisle> inability to tell right from wrong is the legal definition of instanity.
 329 2011-12-31 05:02:38 <midnightmagic> justmoon: direct inheritance of god's autnority from jesus i think
 330 2011-12-31 05:02:43 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: rats are not humans.
 331 2011-12-31 05:02:51 <cjdelisle> And Luke would have us believe that noone on this earth is actually sane.
 332 2011-12-31 05:03:17 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: no, but it is evidence that some moral behaviours can be genetically inherited rather than taught
 333 2011-12-31 05:03:19 <luke-jr> justmoon: God founded the Catholic Church
 334 2011-12-31 05:03:21 <rjk2> if luke ever needs an insanity plea for any reason, this channel has all the logs needed to acquit him
 335 2011-12-31 05:03:28 <midnightmagic> lol
 336 2011-12-31 05:03:40 <justmoon> luke-jr: he also founded a bunch of other churches that disagree with the cath. church
 337 2011-12-31 05:03:48 <lfm> actually a lot of people agree on most moral behaviour without falling back on supernatural reasons
 338 2011-12-31 05:03:52 <luke-jr> justmoon: no, He didn't.
 339 2011-12-31 05:04:06 <luke-jr> lfm: only because of the Christian origins of modern society.
 340 2011-12-31 05:04:18 <luke-jr> as society departs from Christianity further, that falls apart.
 341 2011-12-31 05:04:36 <luke-jr> for example, some countries protect homosexuality
 342 2011-12-31 05:04:45 <lfm> luke Id say that even BEFORE christ a lot of people would have agreed on most moral behavior
 343 2011-12-31 05:04:59 <luke-jr> lfm: clearly not.
 344 2011-12-31 05:05:03 <luke-jr> oh, here's a good one:
 345 2011-12-31 05:05:21 <lfm> oh, so the romans never had laws about murder?
 346 2011-12-31 05:05:25 <lfm> or stealing?
 347 2011-12-31 05:05:28 <luke-jr> almost all society thinks the serious crimes of usury/interest and contraception are just fine and dandy.
 348 2011-12-31 05:05:29 <midnightmagic> that is historically inaccurate except if you accept that current christianity is truer than christianity in antiquity, or that morality was correct by ancient standards
 349 2011-12-31 05:05:40 <luke-jr> lfm: look at the Aztecs, and they weren't even BC
 350 2011-12-31 05:06:05 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: morality has never changed, nor any of the Church's teachings.
 351 2011-12-31 05:06:09 <lfm> luke usury is marginal. Im talking about basics
 352 2011-12-31 05:06:19 <justmoon> luke-jr: do you believe that because there is evidence that the catholic church is the right one? or is there another reason? or do you just believe it based on a circular argument that the church itself says it is the right one?
 353 2011-12-31 05:06:32 <luke-jr> lfm: usury is not marginal. everyone seems to do it nowadays.
 354 2011-12-31 05:06:51 <luke-jr> justmoon: because I proved it to myself by researching the Church's claims and history.
 355 2011-12-31 05:06:57 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: you told me that the church progresses and that is okay because the pope is god's mouth
 356 2011-12-31 05:07:06 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: no, I didn't.
 357 2011-12-31 05:07:12 <lfm> ya by marginal I mean it is not universally agreed to be immoral
 358 2011-12-31 05:07:31 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the Church laws change sometimes, but the teachings never do.
 359 2011-12-31 05:07:46 <luke-jr> lfm: contraception was before the 1900s.
 360 2011-12-31 05:07:48 <justmoon> luke-jr: hmm. I wonder what you found that was so compelling.
 361 2011-12-31 05:07:57 <lfm> luke like usary in the form of loan sharking is still illegal
 362 2011-12-31 05:08:00 <midnightmagic> yeah you did.. you were calling new prinouncements clarifications but theynare historically contradicted
 363 2011-12-31 05:08:01 <luke-jr> justmoon: there was no single thing.
 364 2011-12-31 05:08:25 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: no, they aren't.
 365 2011-12-31 05:08:56 <justmoon> luke-jr: so it was more of a preponderance of the evidence? a judgment call?
 366 2011-12-31 05:09:42 <lfm> ya, its up to the individual to judge (unless you accept some authoriy figure as absolute)
 367 2011-12-31 05:09:46 <luke-jr> justmoon: a sum of looking into a lot of different cases.
 368 2011-12-31 05:10:30 <luke-jr> brb
 369 2011-12-31 05:10:33 <justmoon> fair enough, I gotta go eat, thanks for the discussion @all
 370 2011-12-31 05:10:35 <lfm> used to be kings had devine rights to make laws
 371 2011-12-31 05:11:00 <cjdelisle> they're coming to take me away haha to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time...
 372 2011-12-31 05:11:33 <luke-jr> lfm: they still do.
 373 2011-12-31 05:11:47 <luke-jr> well, except that there's probably no real monarchies anymore
 374 2011-12-31 05:11:50 <midnightmagic> so what are changes in church doctrine supposed to be called? mistakes in our interpretation of the pope's word? :)
 375 2011-12-31 05:12:07 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: there are no changes in Church doctrine ever.
 376 2011-12-31 05:12:10 <lfm> dictators are the same as kings
 377 2011-12-31 05:12:18 <luke-jr> lfm: no.
 378 2011-12-31 05:12:40 mcorlett has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 8.0/20111115183813])
 379 2011-12-31 05:12:41 <lfm> how you think kings got their jobs in the first place?
 380 2011-12-31 05:13:00 <luke-jr> lfm: most probably inherited the position
 381 2011-12-31 05:13:21 <lfm> thats not the first place, I mean the fiorst king in a line
 382 2011-12-31 05:13:33 BlueMatt has joined
 383 2011-12-31 05:13:44 <luke-jr> lfm: there are 3 possibilities
 384 2011-12-31 05:14:15 <lfm> or are you saying korea is now a kingdom protected by devine right now the leader "inherited" his position?
 385 2011-12-31 05:14:22 <luke-jr> for money, power, and my favourite: so someone less qualified doesn't get the job
 386 2011-12-31 05:14:43 <luke-jr> lfm: sure, AFAIK
 387 2011-12-31 05:15:11 <luke-jr> otoh, N Korea might violate too many rights to be legit; not enough info
 388 2011-12-31 05:15:45 <lfm> breaking news, korea is approved by the church's devine right of kings, the great leader must not be disobeyed
 389 2011-12-31 05:16:31 Turingi has joined
 390 2011-12-31 05:17:33 <luke-jr> lfm: his authority is still limited to that of the State
 391 2011-12-31 05:17:47 <luke-jr> and his jurisdiction to the land of N Korea
 392 2011-12-31 05:19:06 <luke-jr> and a pope can depose kings ;O)
 393 2011-12-31 05:19:08 <luke-jr> ;)
 394 2011-12-31 05:19:08 <lfm> ya, his executions of political disidents is ok by you
 395 2011-12-31 05:19:37 <luke-jr> if it can be legitimately classified as treason
 396 2011-12-31 05:19:59 <lfm> treason is whatever the king sez it is
 397 2011-12-31 05:20:04 <luke-jr> not quite.
 398 2011-12-31 05:21:02 <lfm> in burma it is treason to say the king is not as handsom as he thinks he is
 399 2011-12-31 05:21:33 <lfm> punishable by death
 400 2011-12-31 05:22:28 <luke-jr> it is legitimate to punish by death, someone who openly declares the popes to not be infallible on matters of faith and morals (other than pagans)
 401 2011-12-31 05:23:06 <lfm> other than pagans?
 402 2011-12-31 05:23:09 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: that's not true. what about the christian-jewish reconciliation?
 403 2011-12-31 05:23:14 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: no such thing
 404 2011-12-31 05:23:41 <luke-jr> lfm: pagans are obviously not expected to be speaking Christian doctrine
 405 2011-12-31 05:24:05 <luke-jr> lfm: I'm using the more general definition, including atheists and Muslims
 406 2011-12-31 05:24:09 <midnightmagic> you denying the Nostra Aetate?
 407 2011-12-31 05:24:11 <BlueMatt> whats the latest on op_eval?
 408 2011-12-31 05:24:25 <vsrinivas> luke-jr: how about reconciliation with the orthodox church?
 409 2011-12-31 05:24:36 <lfm> so protestants are not allowed to question the wisdom of the pope but pagans are? facinating
 410 2011-12-31 05:24:47 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: certainly, just as I deny the Ninety-Five Theses
 411 2011-12-31 05:25:04 <luke-jr> vsrinivas: the Orthodox schismatics need to reconcile by joining the Church
 412 2011-12-31 05:25:12 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: The Nostra Aetate was promulgated by Pope Paul VI..?
 413 2011-12-31 05:25:13 <luke-jr> lfm: protestantism is heresy
 414 2011-12-31 05:25:14 <rjk2> BlueMatt: have fun trying to get any real work done, all it is is trolling about church and shit
 415 2011-12-31 05:25:18 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: no, it wasn't.
 416 2011-12-31 05:25:27 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: there was no Pope Paul VI
 417 2011-12-31 05:25:37 <luke-jr> rjk2: discussing
 418 2011-12-31 05:25:42 <midnightmagic> http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html ?
 419 2011-12-31 05:25:47 <luke-jr> though if someone has an answer for BlueMatt, we can move to another channel
 420 2011-12-31 05:25:59 <BlueMatt> rjk2: its a bitcoin-related channel, I wouldnt expect any different, though I would hope that someone takes a brief break to respond to my question...
 421 2011-12-31 05:26:00 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: that's a non-Catholic website.
 422 2011-12-31 05:26:07 <BlueMatt> has anything changed since yesterday?
 423 2011-12-31 05:26:10 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Not that I know of.
 424 2011-12-31 05:26:16 <vsrinivas> no related commits, anyway.
 425 2011-12-31 05:26:26 <BlueMatt> fair enough, then continue your church discussions
 426 2011-12-31 05:26:38 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I'm currently of the opinion that OP_EVAL is the better solution, but it should be delayed.
 427 2011-12-31 05:26:38 <midnightmagic> lol
 428 2011-12-31 05:26:43 <lfm> rjk2 did you have some work you wanted to do? Id be happy to change the subject if you got a question or anything
 429 2011-12-31 05:27:05 <rjk2> no, but i guess my question was offtopic anyway
 430 2011-12-31 05:27:13 <lfm> hehe ok
 431 2011-12-31 05:27:13 <midnightmagic> there.. was.. no Pope Paul VI and the vatican website is not catholic?
 432 2011-12-31 05:27:21 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: correct.
 433 2011-12-31 05:27:36 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: meh, I would like to see sipa's tightened version, but aside from that, meh...
 434 2011-12-31 05:27:44 <midnightmagic> wait, which pope are you talking about then?
 435 2011-12-31 05:27:50 <midnightmagic> (which is legitimate)?
 436 2011-12-31 05:27:50 <lfm> did anyone see that series "the borgias"?
 437 2011-12-31 05:27:57 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I see no reason to tighten it. Just add pubkey extraction.
 438 2011-12-31 05:28:05 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the popes of the Catholic Church. there are many.
 439 2011-12-31 05:28:31 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: And who's the current one, and what the hell are you calling Catholic?
 440 2011-12-31 05:28:41 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: there isn't a current one AFAIK
 441 2011-12-31 05:28:45 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well the tightened version really means additional review gets much easier, you dont have to try to think of odd corner cases, as it tightens the possibilities of such cases even existing
 442 2011-12-31 05:28:51 <lfm> pope luke the xxvi
 443 2011-12-31 05:28:58 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the last one to reign from the Vatican (before it was taken over) was Pope Pius XII
 444 2011-12-31 05:29:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: meh, I don't like all the restrictions already. :P
 445 2011-12-31 05:29:39 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: what term would I be most likely to recognise that I could use to learn more about what you are defining as Catholicism?
 446 2011-12-31 05:29:40 <cjdelisle> pope Luke II
 447 2011-12-31 05:30:15 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: "Catholicism from 33 AD to 1958 AD"?
 448 2011-12-31 05:30:18 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well sipa's version is not really restricted, but slightly different, in reality you can do anything with sipa's that you can with gavin's
 449 2011-12-31 05:30:53 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: hmm, I must not be up to date
 450 2011-12-31 05:30:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: so though I can see the argument that you dont like the current scripting restrictions, I cant see why you wouldnt like sipa's over gavin's original version
 451 2011-12-31 05:31:12 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: sipa's version is essentially just that in OP_EVAL nothing is passed except the main stack
 452 2011-12-31 05:31:26 <BlueMatt> ie the alt_stack and such are all specific to within OP_EVAL
 453 2011-12-31 05:31:35 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that might be superior
 454 2011-12-31 05:31:35 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: are you the only one practicing this religion? :-) are there a group of people who think exactly as you do, and do they refer to themselves as something in specific? like pope-repudiators or The Second Advent Catholic Church of man or something?
 455 2011-12-31 05:31:37 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: but then again Im pretty sure Im not up-to-date either
 456 2011-12-31 05:31:55 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: no, there are lots of Catholics.
 457 2011-12-31 05:32:29 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: Pope Benedict XV declared that it is not good to use terms other than "Catholic" and "Christian"
 458 2011-12-31 05:32:30 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: you can understand my confusion, since people who follow the current "pope" who sits in the Vatican also call themselves Catholics.
 459 2011-12-31 05:32:54 <midnightmagic> and yet your beliefs significantly differ from some of theirs.
 460 2011-12-31 05:32:57 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: indeed they do. they should stop. :p
 461 2011-12-31 05:33:06 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: until 1958, they were called Modernists.
 462 2011-12-31 05:33:28 <luke-jr> well, I guess they began calling themselves Catholics before that
 463 2011-12-31 05:33:36 <luke-jr> but that's when they managed to convince the secular world of it
 464 2011-12-31 05:33:43 <luke-jr> by conquering the Vatican properties
 465 2011-12-31 05:34:00 WakiMiko_ has joined
 466 2011-12-31 05:34:11 <midnightmagic> you're like this unending room of mirrors, and I keep expecting bruce lee to jump out and punch me in the neck
 467 2011-12-31 05:34:16 <luke-jr> O.o
 468 2011-12-31 05:34:42 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the Catholic Church is the one which hasn't changed its teachings ever
 469 2011-12-31 05:35:29 <vsrinivas> luke-jr: sorry, my understanding is a bit fuzzy; but are you saying john the 23rd wasn't legitimately pope?
 470 2011-12-31 05:35:30 <midnightmagic> not in a bad way..  i just can't seem to get a handle on what you believe, so i have trouble finding the edges.
 471 2011-12-31 05:35:45 <luke-jr> vsrinivas: correct. there were two false "popes" who took the name John XXIII
 472 2011-12-31 05:35:56 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: I have populated various links at http://dashjr.org/catholic/
 473 2011-12-31 05:36:28 <midnightmagic> so i ask lots of questions, and i get confused a lot, and bruce lee is going to jump out from behind a mirror and punch me in the neck any moment now
 474 2011-12-31 05:36:37 <midnightmagic> :-D
 475 2011-12-31 05:36:52 <midnightmagic> ok thanks, i'll read there before bugging you again
 476 2011-12-31 05:36:53 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: I can handle some questions at least :P
 477 2011-12-31 05:37:03 <luke-jr> there's so much linked there, you'd  never be done reading…
 478 2011-12-31 05:37:12 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 479 2011-12-31 05:37:31 <luke-jr> even I haven't read it all lol
 480 2011-12-31 05:38:11 <justmoon> luke-jr: kinda sounds like the pope is only infallible insofar as he complies with your interpretation of what proper traditional church teachings are
 481 2011-12-31 05:38:43 <luke-jr> justmoon: popes are infallible. part of the Church's infallible teaching is that a pope who contradicts the Church's teaching is a heretic, and loses office.
 482 2011-12-31 05:39:23 <justmoon> luke-jr: and who decides that they contradict the church's teaching? the individual catholic?
 483 2011-12-31 05:39:44 <luke-jr> justmoon: contradiction is logical
 484 2011-12-31 05:39:58 <vsrinivas> ok. to the 20th century john the 23rd, is your objection that he was invalidly elected? or that he contradicted an infallible teaching?
 485 2011-12-31 05:40:34 <luke-jr> vsrinivas: both; also, he was a modernist prior to "election"
 486 2011-12-31 05:41:14 <luke-jr> vsrinivas: the Modernists had been trying to pull it off for centuries; it's only by God's grace that it took them until 1958
 487 2011-12-31 05:42:06 <midnightmagic> so would that mean that the pope was actually duping everyone until it is discovered he was a heretic, and thus everything he said up until then is discarded?
 488 2011-12-31 05:42:41 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the correct term is antipope. and while many people were duped at first, not everyone was.
 489 2011-12-31 05:42:57 <luke-jr> otherwise, yes
 490 2011-12-31 05:42:58 <vsrinivas> okay. my memories are a bit fuzzy, but beyond pacem in terris, i don't recall any of john 23'rd's work. what did he do after election that was a problem?
 491 2011-12-31 05:43:15 <vsrinivas> was it something in that encyclical itself?
 492 2011-12-31 05:43:22 <luke-jr> he didn't do too much problematic; he just wasn't Catholic
 493 2011-12-31 05:43:37 <luke-jr> he basically laid the frameworks in place for Paul VI to begin the real damage
 494 2011-12-31 05:44:01 <luke-jr> ie, modifying the canon of the Mass which was never to be modified
 495 2011-12-31 05:44:04 <luke-jr> eg*
 496 2011-12-31 05:44:18 <vsrinivas> that didn't happen till later, no?
 497 2011-12-31 05:44:20 <justmoon> everyone, consider for a second: what if luke doesn't believe *any* of this stuff and we are getting massively trolled :D
 498 2011-12-31 05:44:31 <justmoon> if that's the case, luke, you sir, are a god among trolls
 499 2011-12-31 05:44:34 <luke-jr> John XXIII just inserted the name of St. Joseph, which is itself fine, except that it was the unchangable part :p
 500 2011-12-31 05:44:57 <vsrinivas> justmoon: still interesting from a historical perspective.
 501 2011-12-31 05:45:10 <luke-jr> pretty sure he issued some heresy in his encyclicals, but that is pale in comparison to his successors
 502 2011-12-31 05:45:20 <BlueMatt> whats the flag that specifies a node as an SPV node?
 503 2011-12-31 05:45:20 <justmoon> vsrinivas: any good trolling should both delight and enlighten
 504 2011-12-31 05:45:27 <BlueMatt> I thought it was fNetworkNode
 505 2011-12-31 05:45:33 * midnightmagic feels guilty for some reason reading luke's catholic page while on the crapper.. :-/
 506 2011-12-31 05:45:34 <BlueMatt> but it doesnt appear to be...
 507 2011-12-31 05:46:10 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: better than never ;P
 508 2011-12-31 05:46:24 <midnightmagic> lol
 509 2011-12-31 05:46:48 <midnightmagic> religions' histories are so complicated..
 510 2011-12-31 05:47:16 <vsrinivas> can also apply to many groups;
 511 2011-12-31 05:48:25 <midnightmagic> very true.
 512 2011-12-31 05:48:33 <justmoon> midnightmagic: imagine a million professional star trek nerds studying trek lore for two thousand years -> catholicism.
 513 2011-12-31 05:49:47 <midnightmagic> LOL
 514 2011-12-31 05:50:33 <BlueMatt> for future reference its NODE_NETWORK (I originally thought fNodeNetwork, but that doesnt exist...
 515 2011-12-31 05:50:34 <BlueMatt> )
 516 2011-12-31 05:52:48 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: I was at my cousin's catholic wedding (at a Portuguese church, but Romanian visiting priest) and was asked to do a reading. I initially quoted Princess Bride's Peter Cook performance "mawidge".. I often wonder whether there were any Catholics in that audience who were sad that I am going to hell.
 517 2011-12-31 05:53:21 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: even Catholic laymen don't do readings, let alone heathen
 518 2011-12-31 05:53:24 <BlueMatt> (and its set to fClient)
 519 2011-12-31 05:54:14 wasabi1 has joined
 520 2011-12-31 05:54:52 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: must've been Modernist then. The Priest was awesome, huge sweeping gestures, robes everywhere. And I'm mistaken, the priest wasn't Romanian. Just retiring.
 521 2011-12-31 05:55:26 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: most modernists do the Mass in native tongues
 522 2011-12-31 05:55:29 <luke-jr> Catholics only in Latin
 523 2011-12-31 05:55:46 <vsrinivas> luke-jr: the non-roman rite folks have used !latin classically, no?
 524 2011-12-31 05:55:59 <midnightmagic> They wouldn't let me do my own reading, otherwise I would've picked a latin one, honest.
 525 2011-12-31 05:56:05 <luke-jr> vsrinivas: yes, that was a special case made at the time for very old rites
 526 2011-12-31 05:56:14 <luke-jr> vsrinivas: I'm not aware of any remaining today, though
 527 2011-12-31 05:56:21 wasabi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 528 2011-12-31 05:57:16 <vsrinivas> i believe there are a number still live, the rite of constantinople iirc?
 529 2011-12-31 05:58:23 <luke-jr> it's possible, but I don't know of any.
 530 2011-12-31 05:58:34 <luke-jr> most of them were glad to go along with the modernists
 531 2011-12-31 06:07:20 Lexa has quit (Quit: Lexa)
 532 2011-12-31 06:08:07 Joric has joined
 533 2011-12-31 06:08:31 <midnightmagic> ah, traditionalists..
 534 2011-12-31 06:12:14 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: You must get this a lot.. how is the stance reversal on heliocentrism reconciled with church infallibility?
 535 2011-12-31 06:12:29 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: what reversal?
 536 2011-12-31 06:12:40 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: also, that's physics, not morals nor faith
 537 2011-12-31 06:12:47 Joric_ has joined
 538 2011-12-31 06:12:47 Joric_ has quit (Changing host)
 539 2011-12-31 06:12:47 Joric_ has joined
 540 2011-12-31 06:12:49 <luke-jr> the Church doesn't teach physics.
 541 2011-12-31 06:12:51 <midnightmagic> it was declared heresy
 542 2011-12-31 06:12:54 <luke-jr> no
 543 2011-12-31 06:13:05 <luke-jr> Fr. Coppernicus, a Catholic priest, came up with helicentrism
 544 2011-12-31 06:13:37 <luke-jr> Galileo took it a step further, and claimed it disproved the Bible
 545 2011-12-31 06:13:40 <luke-jr> *that* was the heresy
 546 2011-12-31 06:13:42 <copumpkin> in nomine patris, filii, et spriritus sancti
 547 2011-12-31 06:14:18 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 548 2011-12-31 06:15:09 <phungus> *low chanting*
 549 2011-12-31 06:16:34 <phungus> I was going to cut and paste some catholic rites in latin but fuck all that brainwashy shit
 550 2011-12-31 06:16:46 <phungus> and I can't find any
 551 2011-12-31 06:17:50 <luke-jr> phungus: perhaps you should consider the possibility that you're the one who is brainwashed? ;)
 552 2011-12-31 06:18:01 <phungus> heha
 553 2011-12-31 06:18:05 <phungus> probably so
 554 2011-12-31 06:18:11 <phungus> I watched SO much TV
 555 2011-12-31 06:18:12 <phungus> omg
 556 2011-12-31 06:20:37 Joric_ is now known as Joric
 557 2011-12-31 06:23:18 <midnightmagic> heliocentrism itself was *declared* contrary to holy scripture (regardless of what the heck galileo said or didn't,) and yet heliocentrism was accepted thereafter.
 558 2011-12-31 06:24:06 <midnightmagic> and well before the modernists took over i might add.
 559 2011-12-31 06:27:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: main difference between.mine and gavin's is that in mine, the execution of the inner does not modify the execution state of the outer
 560 2011-12-31 06:27:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, thought so... isnt that what I said?
 561 2011-12-31 06:28:00 Lexa has joined
 562 2011-12-31 06:28:12 <sipa> you said the diffetence is that only the main stack was passed
 563 2011-12-31 06:28:20 <sipa> :)
 564 2011-12-31 06:28:35 <BlueMatt> oh, whatever...
 565 2011-12-31 06:28:48 * BlueMatt has bitcoin running in !NODE_NETWORK mode, though the blockchain does exist on disk, ReadFromDisk is disabled
 566 2011-12-31 06:28:55 <BlueMatt> :)
 567 2011-12-31 06:29:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: on CBlockStore
 568 2011-12-31 06:29:19 <sipa> nice!
 569 2011-12-31 06:30:11 <SomeoneWeird> guys im having trouble
 570 2011-12-31 06:30:18 <SomeoneWeird> i send a tx to someone about a month ago
 571 2011-12-31 06:30:23 <SomeoneWeird> and it's still not gone through
 572 2011-12-31 06:30:26 <SomeoneWeird> 0 confirmations
 573 2011-12-31 06:30:30 <SomeoneWeird> not in blockexplorer
 574 2011-12-31 06:30:31 <BlueMatt> modified client sending?
 575 2011-12-31 06:30:36 <SomeoneWeird> nop, stock
 576 2011-12-31 06:30:36 PK has joined
 577 2011-12-31 06:30:43 <SomeoneWeird> 3.24 still
 578 2011-12-31 06:31:02 <SomeoneWeird> i dont have access to the coins either :|
 579 2011-12-31 06:31:15 <justmoon> sipa: gavin's pull on OP_EVAL bends over backwards to remove GetSigOpCount - is it impossible to implement GetSigOpCount for OP_EVAL?
 580 2011-12-31 06:32:13 <sipa> hmm?
 581 2011-12-31 06:32:30 <SomeoneWeird> any idea BlueMatt ?
 582 2011-12-31 06:32:38 <justmoon> he passes a new parameter to VerifyScript by reference nSigOps
 583 2011-12-31 06:32:44 <BlueMatt> SomeoneWeird: nfc, does it show up on bitcoincharts?
 584 2011-12-31 06:32:54 <justmoon> that's used to count the number of sigops performed (for DoS purposes)
 585 2011-12-31 06:33:12 <justmoon> i.e. the pre-OP_EVAL code can decide beforehand whether a block or tx exceeds the limit
 586 2011-12-31 06:33:19 <justmoon> the new code runs it up to the limit then aborts
 587 2011-12-31 06:33:42 <justmoon> the old behavior is obviously better, but I assume gavin removed it because it's not possible to predict how many sigops OP_EVAL will do
 588 2011-12-31 06:34:07 <SomeoneWeird> ;;bc,blocks
 589 2011-12-31 06:34:08 <gribble> 159929
 590 2011-12-31 06:34:10 <sipa> justmoon: right. it is essentially impossible to count ops in advance, as some of them can be in a serialized value, wjich can be modified by the code itself
 591 2011-12-31 06:34:31 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: heliocentrism is not accepted period.
 592 2011-12-31 06:34:51 <sipa> that is the static analysis argument roconnor was making
 593 2011-12-31 06:35:14 <luke-jr> sipa: but that static analysis is not needed
 594 2011-12-31 06:35:23 <luke-jr> >
 595 2011-12-31 06:35:24 <luke-jr> ?
 596 2011-12-31 06:35:46 <justmoon> bitcoinjs verifies transactions in parallel - yes, I can still do the same trick of passing a variable by reference deep into the innards of the script interpreter, but man it seems like it would be a liability down the line
 597 2011-12-31 06:35:47 <sipa> it is a nice property to have, imho
 598 2011-12-31 06:36:06 <luke-jr> sipa: it's already lost before OP_EVAL
 599 2011-12-31 06:36:22 <sipa> how so?
 600 2011-12-31 06:37:18 <sipa> justmoon: then argue in favor of analysability
 601 2011-12-31 06:37:44 <sipa> most of the talk about it was hypothetical so far
 602 2011-12-31 06:39:30 <justmoon> sipa: will do
 603 2011-12-31 06:40:02 <justmoon> sipa: would your version be analyzable or only roconnor's?
 604 2011-12-31 06:40:44 <sipa> mine is as well (though my second proposal is flawed)
 605 2011-12-31 06:41:09 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 606 2011-12-31 06:41:19 <SomeoneWeird> weird, just redeemed the private key on mtgox and it said its got all my money
 607 2011-12-31 06:42:14 BurtyB has joined
 608 2011-12-31 06:50:34 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 609 2011-12-31 06:51:11 paraipan has joined
 610 2011-12-31 06:54:45 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: Here's a more rational explanaton why heliocentrism does not disprove catholicism: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy (skip down to infallibility). Apparently a pope can act fallibly except when he's infallible...?
 611 2011-12-31 06:55:00 <midnightmagic> er..  disprove catholic infallibility..
 612 2011-12-31 06:55:22 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: a pope's actions are always fallible
 613 2011-12-31 06:55:31 <luke-jr> "papal infallibility" does not mean a pope is perfect
 614 2011-12-31 06:55:55 <luke-jr> it refers to the Catholic doctrine that the pope's teachings on faith and morals, to the entire Church, are infallible
 615 2011-12-31 06:56:12 <luke-jr> also, heliocentrism is not fact.
 616 2011-12-31 06:56:35 <sipa> faith and morals are not fact
 617 2011-12-31 06:57:03 <midnightmagic> to luke they are. :)
 618 2011-12-31 06:57:07 <luke-jr> sipa: yes, they are.
 619 2011-12-31 06:57:41 <sipa> good, i will stop discussing it at this point
 620 2011-12-31 06:57:58 <copumpkin> sipa: logical equivalent of fix :: (a -> a) -> a
 621 2011-12-31 06:58:02 <midnightmagic> i'm just looking for specific examples of doctrinal reversals which would evidence fallibility contrary to catholic infallibility dogma. :)
 622 2011-12-31 06:58:18 <midnightmagic> sipa: wisdom :)
 623 2011-12-31 06:58:24 <sipa> copumpkin: haha
 624 2011-12-31 06:58:46 ageis has quit (Quit: http://ageispolis.net)
 625 2011-12-31 06:59:23 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: good luck. there aren't any :p
 626 2011-12-31 06:59:25 <BlueMatt> wait luke-jr is catholic?
 627 2011-12-31 06:59:34 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: …
 628 2011-12-31 06:59:36 <vsrinivas> during the iconclasm/icononikai era?
 629 2011-12-31 06:59:38 <luke-jr> you *just* figured that out?
 630 2011-12-31 06:59:43 ageis has joined
 631 2011-12-31 06:59:55 <BlueMatt> everything i saw in the past hour in this chan that didnt have me tagged, Ive ignored
 632 2011-12-31 07:00:01 <midnightmagic> Traditionalist Catholic, and he answers questions. :) it's pretty awesome, I haven't ever met one like that before.
 633 2011-12-31 07:00:05 <BlueMatt> odd, I wouldnt think luke was catholic... oh well
 634 2011-12-31 07:00:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, I'm surprised you didn't know prior to today.
 635 2011-12-31 07:00:24 <midnightmagic> sometimes he says some pretty brutal things. :)
 636 2011-12-31 07:00:48 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: no, Ive never heard you discussing religion tbh
 637 2011-12-31 07:00:57 <TuxBlackEdo> hehe
 638 2011-12-31 07:01:02 <TuxBlackEdo> sorry
 639 2011-12-31 07:01:05 * TuxBlackEdo backs out
 640 2011-12-31 07:01:14 <luke-jr> hmm, I suppose it doesn't come up much here.
 641 2011-12-31 07:02:00 <midnightmagic> BlueMatt: mostly i see it in #eligius
 642 2011-12-31 07:02:18 <midnightmagic> some guy jzknight in there trolls luke constantly, i don't know why he puts up with him
 643 2011-12-31 07:03:28 <luke-jr> I don't always.
 644 2011-12-31 07:03:46 <luke-jr> I mostly ignore him these days, unless there's something that needs correcting/explaining.
 645 2011-12-31 07:04:38 <doublec> BlueMatt: you could guess his religious leanings by looking at the blockchain
 646 2011-12-31 07:05:14 <BlueMatt> doublec: meaning?
 647 2011-12-31 07:05:26 <doublec> BlueMatt: all the latin verses praising god in the blockchain are from his pool
 648 2011-12-31 07:05:43 <midnightmagic> Ah! Fascinating... the church itself doesn't maintain a complete list of specific infallible doctrine.. and therefore cannot be challenged.
 649 2011-12-31 07:05:55 <BlueMatt> since when does luke add latin verses praising god in the chain?
 650 2011-12-31 07:06:03 <copumpkin> lol
 651 2011-12-31 07:06:06 <copumpkin> forever :)
 652 2011-12-31 07:06:11 <copumpkin> coinbase isn't it?
 653 2011-12-31 07:06:13 <copumpkin> or whatever it's called
 654 2011-12-31 07:06:13 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: seriously, even if you do want to praise god, in the chain???
 655 2011-12-31 07:06:20 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: impossible to write it all
 656 2011-12-31 07:06:24 <doublec> copumpkin: yeah I think it was coinbase testing
 657 2011-12-31 07:06:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: hey, I had merged-mining code to test, and no NMC code to test it with yet :P
 658 2011-12-31 07:06:45 <doublec> BlueMatt: where have you been the past few months :) It's been discussed quite a bit.
 659 2011-12-31 07:06:53 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: they don't answer a lot of questions about it either, nor do they identify which is which in advance.
 660 2011-12-31 07:06:57 <luke-jr> so I figured prayers can be made into hex merkleroots
 661 2011-12-31 07:06:58 <luke-jr> :P
 662 2011-12-31 07:07:29 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: hmm?
 663 2011-12-31 07:07:54 <BlueMatt> doublec: Ive been at school...
 664 2011-12-31 07:08:18 <doublec> BlueMatt: yeah I figured you'd been productive instead of gossiping about the latin in the blockchain like the rest of us :)
 665 2011-12-31 07:08:27 <copumpkin> pfft school
 666 2011-12-31 07:08:40 <BlueMatt> doublec: who said anything about being productive, I just said I was at school
 667 2011-12-31 07:08:44 <doublec> hehe
 668 2011-12-31 07:09:28 ageis has quit (Quit: http://ageispolis.net)
 669 2011-12-31 07:10:14 ageis has joined
 670 2011-12-31 07:11:26 ageis has quit (Client Quit)
 671 2011-12-31 07:12:11 ageis has joined
 672 2011-12-31 07:12:46 <midnightmagic> since.. MtGox support eligius, does this mean that the prayers are representative of MtGox' religious views? :-)
 673 2011-12-31 07:13:14 Sedra- has joined
 674 2011-12-31 07:14:15 vsrinivas has quit (Quit: leaving)
 675 2011-12-31 07:15:18 Sedra has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 676 2011-12-31 07:16:04 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: you enjoy reading into things?
 677 2011-12-31 07:16:17 <luke-jr> or just when you know there's nothing to be read into it?
 678 2011-12-31 07:20:27 <midnightmagic> first, it is farcical.. second, I enjoy pointing out inferred absurdities which are usually drawn by people who see evidence in the lack of it.
 679 2011-12-31 07:20:39 <midnightmagic> :-P
 680 2011-12-31 07:22:16 b4epoche has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 681 2011-12-31 07:22:29 b4epoche has joined
 682 2011-12-31 07:37:25 <Diablo-D3> man wtf
 683 2011-12-31 07:37:37 <Diablo-D3> my client is stuck on 159682 blocks
 684 2011-12-31 07:38:19 <Diablo-D3> I have 75 connections to the rest of the network
 685 2011-12-31 07:39:16 <Diablo-D3> now 90
 686 2011-12-31 07:43:22 <Diablo-D3> now 121
 687 2011-12-31 07:47:10 nathan7 has joined
 688 2011-12-31 07:52:50 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 689 2011-12-31 07:53:17 <cjdelisle> ;;bc,blocks
 690 2011-12-31 07:53:18 <gribble> 159934
 691 2011-12-31 07:54:29 <cjdelisle> happy 160k (in another 11 hours)
 692 2011-12-31 07:55:06 <justmoon> cjdelisle: happy 160k and new year :)
 693 2011-12-31 07:55:38 <justmoon> cjdelisle: got any resolutions for the new year / next 10k blocks?
 694 2011-12-31 08:00:30 <cjdelisle> work harder on stuff that pays
 695 2011-12-31 08:01:07 <justmoon> ah, yeah, very familiar with that one
 696 2011-12-31 08:03:34 dissipate has joined
 697 2011-12-31 08:03:54 <cjdelisle> which is more likely to be possible since "my project" is not functioning well enough that I can do an http request which is passed across 3 nodes
 698 2011-12-31 08:03:57 <cjdelisle> https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns <-- that
 699 2011-12-31 08:04:00 <Joric> someone's really into selling bitcents https://mtgox.com/code/data/getTrades.php
 700 2011-12-31 08:04:14 <Joric> why does he do that
 701 2011-12-31 08:04:29 <justmoon> cjdelisle: not functioning? how come?
 702 2011-12-31 08:04:50 <cjdelisle> s/not/now/
 703 2011-12-31 08:04:54 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 704 2011-12-31 08:04:58 <justmoon> lol
 705 2011-12-31 08:05:00 <justmoon> kk
 706 2011-12-31 08:05:02 <cjdelisle> it is now functioning \o/
 707 2011-12-31 08:05:09 <justmoon> congrats
 708 2011-12-31 08:05:22 <cjdelisle> yea, lotta work went into that over the past year
 709 2011-12-31 08:05:56 <justmoon> it's a beautiful repo
 710 2011-12-31 08:06:16 <cjdelisle> in some ways, it's rather amazing it works at all, there are 3 layers of crypto
 711 2011-12-31 08:06:29 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
 712 2011-12-31 08:06:30 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":4.3,"low":4.06334,"avg":4.210536216,"vwap":4.207910351,"vol":46389,"last_all":4.24889,"last_local":4.24889,"last":4.24889,"buy":4.24002,"sell":4.24889}}
 713 2011-12-31 08:06:33 <cjdelisle> one for the point-to-point, one for the ipv6 headers and one for the content
 714 2011-12-31 08:06:50 <cjdelisle> 3 chances to have it desynchronize and go into "can't connect hell"
 715 2011-12-31 08:07:25 <justmoon> hmm
 716 2011-12-31 08:07:59 <justmoon> how come? it sounded rather elegant and simple when you described it
 717 2011-12-31 08:09:07 <cjdelisle> The crypto is done 3 times, once to protect the switches from the world, once to protect the ipv6 headers from being tampered with or dropped by the switches and once to protect the content from being tampered with or read by the routers
 718 2011-12-31 08:09:49 <justmoon> security comes at a price then
 719 2011-12-31 08:09:58 <Diablo-D3> wtf
 720 2011-12-31 08:10:00 <Diablo-D3> 125 connections
 721 2011-12-31 08:10:01 <cjdelisle> and 2 out of 3 of those times, there's no authentication token so it's possible for keys to go wrong and you get garbage coming out the other ent
 722 2011-12-31 08:10:06 <justmoon> but constantly improving hardware is on your side
 723 2011-12-31 08:10:08 <Diablo-D3> still stuck on the same block
 724 2011-12-31 08:10:13 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck is wrong with this thing
 725 2011-12-31 08:10:27 <cjdelisle> that's the biggest risk
 726 2011-12-31 08:11:02 <cjdelisle> a shared secret will get borked and it won't know and won't tear down the connection, just decrypt with the wrong key and spew garbage
 727 2011-12-31 08:11:30 <cjdelisle> ofc it resets after no replies for 20 seconds so it eventually corrects itself
 728 2011-12-31 08:12:12 <cjdelisle> ^^ no authenticator/checksum is the price you pay for having encryption headers only take 4 bytes
 729 2011-12-31 08:12:41 <Diablo-D3> lets upgrade to 0.5.1
 730 2011-12-31 08:12:46 <Diablo-D3> lets see if it fixes it
 731 2011-12-31 08:14:47 <justmoon> Diablo-D3: what does the log say?
 732 2011-12-31 08:18:42 <Diablo-D3> http://pastebin.com/GQ0hiYpd
 733 2011-12-31 08:18:47 <Diablo-D3> thats the tail of it
 734 2011-12-31 08:19:09 <justmoon> yeah your database is borked
 735 2011-12-31 08:19:13 <justmoon> missing transactions
 736 2011-12-31 08:20:05 <Diablo-D3> so why isnt it downloading them?
 737 2011-12-31 08:20:27 <justmoon> when it tries to validate the new blocks, it needs the old transactions they reference
 738 2011-12-31 08:20:29 <justmoon> but those are missing
 739 2011-12-31 08:20:35 <Diablo-D3> so why isnt it downloading them?
 740 2011-12-31 08:20:50 <justmoon> because they are in old blocks that your clients thinks it has already
 741 2011-12-31 08:21:15 <justmoon> your database is inconsistent, if I'm right you're gonna have to redownload the chain
 742 2011-12-31 08:22:54 <justmoon> actually, forget what I said - I was looking at the wrong messages
 743 2011-12-31 08:22:55 marf_away has joined
 744 2011-12-31 08:23:03 <justmoon> the interesting bit is at the top
 745 2011-12-31 08:23:07 <Diablo-D3> well I restarted with -rescan -checkblocks
 746 2011-12-31 08:23:12 <Diablo-D3> lets see what it does now
 747 2011-12-31 08:25:06 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 748 2011-12-31 08:25:08 <justmoon> so the actual error you have is InvalidChainFound
 749 2011-12-31 08:25:23 molecular has joined
 750 2011-12-31 08:28:13 <justmoon> ok, so it gets the new block, tries to reorganize your chain and fails doing that - you'd have to post a few more lines of your log to figure out what happens during the reorg that makes it fail
 751 2011-12-31 08:28:19 nathan7 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 752 2011-12-31 08:29:04 <justmoon> but -checkblocks may very well fix it, I'll leave you to it then
 753 2011-12-31 08:39:33 <Diablo-D3> lets see
 754 2011-12-31 08:39:54 <Diablo-D3> 15 connections, still stuck on that block
 755 2011-12-31 08:47:14 <Diablo-D3> Loaded 93446 addresses
 756 2011-12-31 08:47:14 <Diablo-D3>  addresses              3482ms
 757 2011-12-31 08:47:21 <Diablo-D3> ie, every user ever ;)
 758 2011-12-31 08:47:54 <Diablo-D3>  rescan                75930ms
 759 2011-12-31 08:48:07 <Diablo-D3> 80 seconds really isnt that bad
 760 2011-12-31 08:48:34 <Diablo-D3> mapBlockIndex.size() = 160072
 761 2011-12-31 08:48:34 <Diablo-D3> nBestHeight = 159682
 762 2011-12-31 08:48:56 <Diablo-D3> connects to irc, lots of irc spam
 763 2011-12-31 08:49:29 <justmoon> it's downloading the blocks, it's just unable to switch over the active chain (reorganize) from what I can tell
 764 2011-12-31 08:49:42 <justmoon> what does it say before InvalidChainFound?
 765 2011-12-31 08:49:49 <Diablo-D3> looking
 766 2011-12-31 08:50:31 <Diablo-D3> a bunch of add addresses, a bunch of trying connection, a bunch of added time data, a bunch of version message....
 767 2011-12-31 08:51:03 <Diablo-D3> askfor tx ab1e7bb020cf6cf2351b   0
 768 2011-12-31 08:51:03 PK has quit ()
 769 2011-12-31 08:51:03 <Diablo-D3> sending getdata: tx ab1e7bb020cf6cf2351b
 770 2011-12-31 08:51:03 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: ConnectInputs() : ab1e7bb020 mapTransactions prev not found 1141c3b989
 771 2011-12-31 08:51:03 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() : ConnectInputs failed ab1e7bb020
 772 2011-12-31 08:51:03 <Diablo-D3> storing orphan tx ab1e7bb020
 773 2011-12-31 08:51:26 <Diablo-D3> sending getdata: tx cbdd1e86e36e8b214a1d
 774 2011-12-31 08:51:26 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: ConnectInputs() : cbdd1e86e3 mapTransactions prev not found 5339fb39cc
 775 2011-12-31 08:51:26 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() : ConnectInputs failed cbdd1e86e3
 776 2011-12-31 08:51:26 <Diablo-D3> storing orphan tx cbdd1e86e3
 777 2011-12-31 08:51:26 <Diablo-D3> socket recv error 104
 778 2011-12-31 08:51:27 <Diablo-D3> disconnecting node 24.159.97.131:8333
 779 2011-12-31 08:51:39 <justmoon> AcceptToMemoryPool is just for the unconfirmed transactions, you can ignore that
 780 2011-12-31 08:52:26 <Diablo-D3> okay it eventually says REORGANIZE
 781 2011-12-31 08:52:40 <Diablo-D3> REORGANIZE
 782 2011-12-31 08:52:40 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: ConnectInputs() : 2d4c988d68 prev tx already used at (nFile=-262145, nBlockPos=0, nTxPos=0)
 783 2011-12-31 08:52:40 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: Reorganize() : ConnectBlock failed
 784 2011-12-31 08:52:40 <Diablo-D3> InvalidChainFound: invalid block=0000000000000e6951d0  height=159939  work=199081671778950351604
 785 2011-12-31 08:52:40 <Diablo-D3> InvalidChainFound:  current best=00000000000005daf01c  height=159682  work=197801314413392560823
 786 2011-12-31 08:52:41 <Diablo-D3> InvalidChainFound: WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
 787 2011-12-31 08:52:44 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: SetBestChain() : Reorganize failed
 788 2011-12-31 08:52:46 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: AcceptBlock() : AddToBlockIndex failed
 789 2011-12-31 08:52:48 <Diablo-D3> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED
 790 2011-12-31 08:53:02 <justmoon> there's your problem
 791 2011-12-31 08:53:15 <justmoon> "ConnectInputs() : 2d4c988d68 prev tx already used at (nFile=-262145, nBlockPos=0, nTxPos=0)"
 792 2011-12-31 08:53:25 <justmoon> that's not supposed to fail
 793 2011-12-31 08:53:33 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how this happened
 794 2011-12-31 08:53:49 <justmoon> I guess I'm a developer for the wrong client to tell you more than that :)
 795 2011-12-31 08:54:59 <Diablo-D3> welp, time to restore from older index
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 799 2011-12-31 08:59:15 <BlueMatt> heh, Im debugging the exact same damn error, but Im getting it for completely different reasons...
 800 2011-12-31 08:59:27 <BlueMatt> I saw that paste and was like, what wtf was I pasteing to the chan?
 801 2011-12-31 08:59:52 <justmoon> BlueMatt: I can top you, I'm getting the same error in a different client for completely different reasons lol
 802 2011-12-31 09:00:06 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if someones attacking the network
 803 2011-12-31 09:00:08 <BlueMatt> heh, ok I think that won...
 804 2011-12-31 09:00:14 <BlueMatt> no, mine is my fault
 805 2011-12-31 09:00:18 <BlueMatt> bad coding :)
 806 2011-12-31 09:00:21 <Diablo-D3> lol
 807 2011-12-31 09:00:21 <justmoon> yeah, mine is my fault too
 808 2011-12-31 09:00:27 <Diablo-D3> when I restored to an earlier index
 809 2011-12-31 09:00:29 <Diablo-D3> er
 810 2011-12-31 09:00:31 <Diablo-D3> *well
 811 2011-12-31 09:00:36 Sedra- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 812 2011-12-31 09:00:38 <Diablo-D3> so lets see where that puts me
 813 2011-12-31 09:00:43 <justmoon> I'm rewriting bitcoinjs' double spend index to make it go fasteeeeeer :)
 814 2011-12-31 09:01:02 <justmoon> current status: block chain download in two hours - next goal: 90 minutes
 815 2011-12-31 09:01:27 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if 0.5.0 had a bug in it
 816 2011-12-31 09:02:02 <Diablo-D3> 150389
 817 2011-12-31 09:02:18 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,blocks
 818 2011-12-31 09:02:19 <gribble> 159943
 819 2011-12-31 09:02:23 <Diablo-D3> heh thats not too bad
 820 2011-12-31 09:02:58 <Diablo-D3> 67 days ago
 821 2011-12-31 09:03:04 <Diablo-D3> and it seems to be updating
 822 2011-12-31 09:32:35 <Diablo-D3> we're now up to 55 days ago
 823 2011-12-31 09:34:09 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r06311ce90523 / (26 files in 8 dirs): dialect -> exporter, original_dialect -> satoshi_exporter http://tinyurl.com/7yfrubt
 824 2011-12-31 09:34:47 mcorlett has joined
 825 2011-12-31 09:43:34 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * rb874b2221f54 /src/error.cpp: Error code descriptions. http://tinyurl.com/6osrolm
 826 2011-12-31 09:46:36 <Diablo-D3> now 50 days
 827 2011-12-31 09:46:46 <Diablo-D3> about 5 days every 14 minutes
 828 2011-12-31 09:47:35 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r7c0528c6df7d / (5 files in 5 dirs): async resolve for domain names + iterate/connect all entries (not only try 1st) Needs boost 1.48 http://tinyurl.com/7h5gv39
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 834 2011-12-31 10:03:44 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * rf9b792d1ccc2 /include/bitcoin/Makefile.am: Install blockchain/organizer.hpp into include directory http://tinyurl.com/89hd6gj
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 845 2011-12-31 10:55:58 <Diablo-D3> now up to 24 days
 846 2011-12-31 11:07:20 chrisb__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 851 2011-12-31 11:38:53 <Diablo-D3> 9 days left
 852 2011-12-31 11:39:27 <Diablo-D3> 159682 is what I have to pass
 853 2011-12-31 11:41:43 [Tycho] has joined
 854 2011-12-31 11:47:31 <kinlo> ?
 855 2011-12-31 11:52:47 <CIA-100> bips: etotheipi master * r0a1cd78 / bip-0010.md : Updated header to be consistent with other BIPs - http://git.io/1Gmznw https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/0a1cd78d080cb479323b4c28e6f27a7eef6a7414
 856 2011-12-31 12:07:41 cryptoxchange has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 857 2011-12-31 12:09:25 cryptoxchange has joined
 858 2011-12-31 12:13:47 <CIA-100> bips: genjix master * r4b11618 / (bip-0010.md bip-0014.md bip-0015.md): Formatted BIP to have consistent styling. - http://git.io/JM7eTQ https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/4b116185bdebfa875ac0df249d8437010d913c12
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 867 2011-12-31 12:58:34 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r36d262335a40 /include/bitcoin/data_helpers.hpp: Python-like range function: iterable range(iterable, start_offset, end_offset) http://tinyurl.com/7qmd6dy
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 876 2011-12-31 13:31:18 <Mqrius> Am I the only one for whom bitspinner occasionally crashes?
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 883 2011-12-31 14:05:59 <Runnigan> Hi, when I try to open bitcoind.exe, I get a message saying I need to create a bitcoin.conf file
 884 2011-12-31 14:06:13 <Runnigan> I've done that but it still doesn't work
 885 2011-12-31 14:06:37 <Runnigan> are there any guides on how to create a config file, and/or how to run bitcoind from command prompt?
 886 2011-12-31 14:07:02 <lfm> you have to put it in the config dir
 887 2011-12-31 14:07:38 <Runnigan> C:\Users\Name\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin right?
 888 2011-12-31 14:08:16 <lfm> not sure about windows myself but that looks like it
 889 2011-12-31 14:08:50 <Runnigan> in the config file, I only have rpcuser=name and rpcpassword=password, and nothing else
 890 2011-12-31 14:08:56 <lfm> where Name is your login name?
 891 2011-12-31 14:09:12 <Runnigan> Name is the username
 892 2011-12-31 14:09:21 <lfm> ok
 893 2011-12-31 14:11:24 <lfm> ya that checks out on this system (mswin7)
 894 2011-12-31 14:12:02 <lfm> but bitcoin created it for me here Im quite sure. i never needed to make it myself
 895 2011-12-31 14:13:09 <Runnigan> Is there any other way to use testnet other than using the bitcoind? because that's my real goal
 896 2011-12-31 14:14:03 <lfm> ya you should be able to say tesnet=true on command line or in config file
 897 2011-12-31 14:15:51 <lfm> or just -testnet
 898 2011-12-31 14:17:51 <Runnigan> so I need to get bitcoind running
 899 2011-12-31 14:18:14 <lfm> -testnet should work with the gui too i think
 900 2011-12-31 14:20:45 <Runnigan> oh really? Ok. Sorry for all these questions: which directory would I need to go to through command line to change bitcoin settings?
 901 2011-12-31 14:22:09 <lfm> command line args are put in a properties of a startup icon the way I do it
 902 2011-12-31 14:24:22 <lfm> i have never tried testnet on mswin tho. only on linux
 903 2011-12-31 14:25:58 <lfm> you dont need to run a command line window to use command line args you know
 904 2011-12-31 14:27:01 <Runnigan> oh I see
 905 2011-12-31 14:27:07 <Runnigan> ok I'm trying to figure out how to do it
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 907 2011-12-31 14:28:04 <lfm> application properties shortcut target, add the args after the exe file name
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 909 2011-12-31 14:30:51 <Runnigan> got it!
 910 2011-12-31 14:31:01 <lfm> yay
 911 2011-12-31 14:31:57 <Runnigan> thanks a lot
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 913 2011-12-31 14:35:12 <Runnigan> Farewell
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 922 2011-12-31 14:52:54 <CIA-100> bips: genjix master * rbdb707e / bip-0010.md : Unindent BIP header to 2 spaces. - http://git.io/FnixlQ https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/bdb707e831b4e08196d1993b3d6e432b732b8fae
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 944 2011-12-31 15:28:25 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * rc28af582eab2 /include/bitcoin/blockchain/ (bdb_blockchain.hpp blockchain.hpp postgresql_blockchain.hpp): non-copyable blockchain services. http://tinyurl.com/7pwsond
 945 2011-12-31 15:28:26 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r070b7658048f / (28 files in 10 dirs): I am a style pedant. http://tinyurl.com/79ubrt7
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 951 2011-12-31 15:47:36 [Tycho] has joined
 952 2011-12-31 15:51:22 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r14140a8c7e9a / (28 files in 8 dirs): dialect -> exporter, original_dialect -> satoshi_exporter http://tinyurl.com/7kw3gcu
 953 2011-12-31 16:05:28 p0s has joined
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 955 2011-12-31 16:08:26 <CIA-100> bitcoin: jedi95 * raf1f8af2b0dc Phoenix-Miner/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Add rollntime support to RPC and MMP backends. (Not supported by the miner core ... http://tinyurl.com/7wp3yb9
 956 2011-12-31 16:26:11 <[Tycho]> Was the best chain selection algorithm changed since 0.3 or not ?
 957 2011-12-31 16:26:18 <sipa> no
 958 2011-12-31 16:28:47 <sipa> sum of 2^256/(target+1)
 959 2011-12-31 16:28:51 <sipa> for all blocks in the chain
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 963 2011-12-31 16:43:26 <[Tycho]> So the chain with hardest target always wins ?
 964 2011-12-31 16:44:14 <sipa> with the highest sum of inverses of targets wins
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 966 2011-12-31 16:59:13 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: Why did you think it was changed?
 967 2011-12-31 16:59:43 <gmaxwell> (changing it in almost any way would have an extreme risk of fragmenting the network)
 968 2011-12-31 17:00:54 <[Tycho]> Just asked to be sure.
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 970 2011-12-31 17:02:56 <CIA-100> bips: etotheipi master * rb83fd76 / bip-0015.md : Merge branch 'master' of github.com:genjix/bips - http://git.io/Q2cxmA https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/b83fd76df5429479fdc7943f98fc9868a60f22c2
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 987 2011-12-31 17:50:13 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r67378deb9059 / (88 files in 14 dirs): util -> utility (like boost and STD libraries do) http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/libbitcoin.git/commitdiff/67378deb905957f73131ba1668463cfcc10be71e
 988 2011-12-31 17:50:44 <[Tycho]> What is that "alert" system ?
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 990 2011-12-31 17:52:03 <vsrinivas> [Tycho]: the network can relay signed 'alert' messages; they are displayed by all clients.
 991 2011-12-31 17:52:19 <[Tycho]> starting from which version ?
 992 2011-12-31 17:52:30 <vsrinivas> early in the 0.3era i think?
 993 2011-12-31 17:52:51 <vsrinivas> some versions disable functionality on receiving an alert;
 994 2011-12-31 17:53:11 <[Tycho]> Don't remember seeing anything like this in my version.
 995 2011-12-31 17:54:22 <vsrinivas> appeared in 0.3.11, 8/2010.
 996 2011-12-31 17:57:26 <vsrinivas> what is your version?
 997 2011-12-31 17:57:27 <roconnor> justmoon: It is an uphill battle to fight OP_EVAL.  But having people like you against it will really help.
 998 2011-12-31 17:57:56 <roconnor> justmoon: IIUC you and I are the only ones to reimplement the scripting engine.
 999 2011-12-31 17:57:59 <[Tycho]> vsrinivas: somewhere near that.
1000 2011-12-31 17:58:32 <vsrinivas> ok. look for 'CAlert' or in the code that matches on 'strCommand' for messages.
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1002 2011-12-31 18:01:17 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
1003 2011-12-31 18:02:13 <SomeoneWeirdzzzz> wtf IS OP_EVAL?
1004 2011-12-31 18:02:39 <sipa> read BIP 0012
1005 2011-12-31 18:04:04 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1008 2011-12-31 18:20:30 <[Tycho]> Yes, found it.
1009 2011-12-31 18:21:38 <justmoon> sipa: gavin talks about a 200 ops limit - do you know where that comes from?
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1011 2011-12-31 18:24:30 <justmoon> happy 160k everyone btw!
1012 2011-12-31 18:28:30 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r26378a6358f4 /src/network/channel.cpp: BUGFIX: on connection error, trying to close an already closed socket. http://tinyurl.com/8xlddfz
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1026 2011-12-31 18:47:51 <upb> Bruce Wagner call6465800022@gmail.com to bitcoincard
1027 2011-12-31 18:47:51 <upb> show details 3:22 PM (5 hours ago)
1028 2011-12-31 18:47:51 <upb> Any updates?
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1031 2011-12-31 18:47:55 <upb> ahahhha wtf :D
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1033 2011-12-31 18:48:31 <phantomcircuit> justmoon, fyi hash lookups are not O(1) except in theory and for very small datasets
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1046 2011-12-31 18:51:08 <justmoon> phantomcircuit: so how come google gives me a result in 50 ms
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1048 2011-12-31 18:51:47 <phantomcircuit> justmoon, massively massively parallel lookups + caching
1049 2011-12-31 18:52:09 <phantomcircuit> a hash lookup is only O(1) if it's in the cpu cache
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1053 2011-12-31 18:52:56 <phantomcircuit> as soon as your dataset is large enough to need actual memory requests you're looking at all kinds of additional time
1054 2011-12-31 18:53:08 <phantomcircuit> but for 99% of stuff it's low enough overhead to not happen
1055 2011-12-31 18:53:13 <justmoon> well yeah, I've said just that in my comment
1056 2011-12-31 18:53:20 <phantomcircuit> just being nit-picky
1057 2011-12-31 18:53:39 <phantomcircuit> oh
1058 2011-12-31 18:53:41 <phantomcircuit> i missed that
1059 2011-12-31 18:53:47 <justmoon> every time you get into the next category, it gets slower - i.e. when it no longer fits in memory, when it no longer fits on a single machine etc.
1060 2011-12-31 18:53:50 * phantomcircuit stops doing ten things at once
1061 2011-12-31 18:53:57 <justmoon> no problem :)
1062 2011-12-31 18:54:07 <justmoon> I kinda have the same problem right now ^^
1063 2011-12-31 18:54:17 <phantomcircuit> lol
1064 2011-12-31 18:54:26 <phantomcircuit> i have most of a bitcoin vps system setup
1065 2011-12-31 18:54:27 <phantomcircuit> heh
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1075 2011-12-31 19:08:26 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r36f5a355e896 / (10 files in 3 dirs): Consolidated network/types.hpp into types.hpp http://tinyurl.com/7ulgar9
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1120 2011-12-31 21:44:20 <CIA-100> bips: etotheipi master * re89a0b4 / bip-0010.md : Updated formatting - http://git.io/rT_ndA https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/e89a0b4c4bbee4496be3e6a7bf7c48b53464801f
1121 2011-12-31 21:44:21 <CIA-100> bips: etotheipi master * r6c1fb17 / (bip-0010.md bip-0014.md bip-0015.md): Merge branch 'master' of github.com:genjix/bips - http://git.io/0frNAA https://github.com/genjix/bips/commit/6c1fb17e1ea4f932da5602bc4876f7c65f329a6a
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1124 2011-12-31 21:58:28 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r1009e11f47cf / (9 files in 6 dirs): Support for BIP 0014 (User Agent): https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0014 http://tinyurl.com/7wv7mc9
1125 2011-12-31 21:58:29 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r12f0dbb4985c /src/network/handshake.cpp: User Agent: "/libbitcoin:0.1a/" http://tinyurl.com/7swca5q
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1131 2011-12-31 22:33:24 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rc0775734fd16 cgminer/main.c: Again do not attempt to restart a hung device with the every minute attempted restart. http://tinyurl.com/757d63f
1132 2011-12-31 22:33:26 <CIA-100> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r40ea56ee6e5d cgminer/main.c: Continue attempting to restart every minute whether a GPU is considered sick or dead. http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/cpuminer/cgminer.git/commitdiff/40ea56ee6e5dfe4502b0b8e90e429259cf6f760e
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1144 2011-12-31 23:33:48 <CIA-100> libbitcoin: genjix * r58c80fc69993 / (7 files in 5 dirs): handshake class to encapsulate handshake protocol with a template version message and all the intracies involved there. http://tinyurl.com/85howu4
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