1 2012-01-16 00:00:29 <genjix> roconnor: i agree
2 2012-01-16 00:00:41 [Tycho] has joined
3 2012-01-16 00:00:42 <genjix> sadly there are some 'non-standard' coinbases out there
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7 2012-01-16 00:02:12 <genjix> slush: yo
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11 2012-01-16 00:07:47 <roconnor> I'm kinda thinking of throwing some OP_CHECKSIGs into the sigScripts
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13 2012-01-16 00:08:39 <sipa> roconnor: only luke will accept tem
14 2012-01-16 00:08:54 <roconnor> oh
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16 2012-01-16 00:09:01 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
17 2012-01-16 00:09:05 <roconnor> maybe I should check IsStandard
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19 2012-01-16 00:09:19 <sipa> it requires scriptSIgs to be pus-oly
20 2012-01-16 00:09:27 <sipa> grrr i ate my keyboard
21 2012-01-16 00:09:35 <sipa> lol
22 2012-01-16 00:11:45 <cjdelisle> taste good?
23 2012-01-16 00:12:47 <roconnor> sipa: OP_RESERVED is also allowed
24 2012-01-16 00:13:00 <roconnor> sipa: but, there is no way to make a valid transaction using that I think
25 2012-01-16 00:13:51 <roconnor> if the only things are allowed are OP_PUSHDATAs
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44 2012-01-16 00:27:41 <sipa> damn; my laptop's "h" key doesn't work anymore; there is a "h" in my password; i logged out; i found only ps2 keyboards in here; no ssh daemons runs on it...
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46 2012-01-16 00:29:03 <Diablo-D3> sipa: boned.
47 2012-01-16 00:29:52 <gmaxwell> sipa: dissassemble h key and see if you can remove cruft thats breaking it?
48 2012-01-16 00:34:00 <Diablo-D3> hey forrestv, go on github and nuke your no delay branch of DM
49 2012-01-16 00:34:48 <forrestv> ok, done
50 2012-01-16 00:35:04 <Diablo-D3> now I have to download p2pool and test my version lol
51 2012-01-16 00:35:21 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
52 2012-01-16 00:35:31 <forrestv> :)
53 2012-01-16 00:35:36 <Diablo-D3> btw, change your p2pool readme, you can feed apt-get install multiple packages =P
54 2012-01-16 00:35:43 sacredchao has joined
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57 2012-01-16 00:51:48 <Diablo-D3> 2012-01-15 19:46:51.536442 Pool: 78401MH/s in 17317 shares (8670/17318 verified) Recent: 0.00% >0H/s Shares: 0 (0 orphan, 0 dead) Peers: 11
58 2012-01-16 00:51:49 <Diablo-D3> lawlz
59 2012-01-16 00:52:26 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: sweet. half way synced up.
60 2012-01-16 00:52:32 Acciaio has joined
61 2012-01-16 00:53:16 <Diablo-D3> p2pool will reject shares locally, right?
62 2012-01-16 00:53:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes. It's normal and not harmful to have a ~10% 'stale' rate too.
63 2012-01-16 00:53:56 <iz> sipa: are you using windows? alt-numpad 104
64 2012-01-16 00:54:07 <Diablo-D3> I just wanna make sure this shit works before I commit it
65 2012-01-16 00:54:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: not cruft; spilled tea :(
66 2012-01-16 00:55:11 <Diablo-D3> tea, killing keyboards since forever, pip pip, cheerio
67 2012-01-16 00:55:13 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
68 2012-01-16 00:55:18 <sipa> iz: nope
69 2012-01-16 00:55:20 <forrestv> Diablo-D3, if you're using git head, you should get a few percent rejected locally
70 2012-01-16 00:55:25 <forrestv> as seen on the miner
71 2012-01-16 00:55:36 <Diablo-D3> well, Im doing this
72 2012-01-16 00:55:46 <forrestv> setting your fps higher can help
73 2012-01-16 00:56:07 <Diablo-D3> theres three sleeps, one in getwork thread, one in sendwork thread, one in lp thread
74 2012-01-16 00:56:27 <Diablo-D3> its now if(!noDelay) sleep
75 2012-01-16 00:56:52 <gmaxwell> !!!!!noDelay
76 2012-01-16 00:56:53 <gribble> Error: "!!!!noDelay" is not a valid command.
77 2012-01-16 00:57:14 <gmaxwell> gribble: I wasn't talking to you
78 2012-01-16 00:57:16 <gribble> sorry
79 2012-01-16 00:57:56 <Diablo-D3> forrestv: so how the fuck do I get paid with this?
80 2012-01-16 00:58:14 <forrestv> Diablo-D3, if gets an address from bitcoind by default
81 2012-01-16 00:58:41 <forrestv> if you get an accepted share (diff is ~200 now, and about 90% get accepted) and p2pool finds a block in the next 24 hours, you'll be included in the generation transaction
82 2012-01-16 00:58:57 <Diablo-D3> nice.
83 2012-01-16 00:59:58 <Diablo-D3> my change seems to be working fine
84 2012-01-16 01:00:20 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
85 2012-01-16 01:00:20 <sipa> forrestv: is the window always 24h, or does it depend on other factors?
86 2012-01-16 01:00:58 <forrestv> sipa, depends on p2pool's hash rate
87 2012-01-16 01:01:38 <forrestv> the amount of work used for computing payouts is min(3*average_attempts_to_get_a_bitcoin_block, p2pool_work_in_the_last_24hrs)
88 2012-01-16 01:01:38 <sipa> so it's rather a "last N shares" ?
89 2012-01-16 01:01:41 <JimRogers> is now a good time to liquidate bit coin holdings and go massively short?
90 2012-01-16 01:01:55 <sipa> forrestv: i see
91 2012-01-16 01:02:00 inavat has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
92 2012-01-16 01:02:05 <sipa> JimRogers: who knows?
93 2012-01-16 01:02:18 <JimRogers> hopefully someone in this channel
94 2012-01-16 01:02:21 <forrestv> sipa, ah, yeah, it's last N shares. shares are adjusted to come every 10 seconds and (at least now) it uses the last 8640
95 2012-01-16 01:03:59 user_ has joined
96 2012-01-16 01:06:29 <Diablo-D3> man this might take awhile to test
97 2012-01-16 01:06:45 <forrestv> Diablo-D3, how many accepts/rejects is DM showing?
98 2012-01-16 01:06:51 <Diablo-D3> 15/0
99 2012-01-16 01:07:06 <gmaxwell> what version of p2pool are you using? the one from github?
100 2012-01-16 01:07:14 <Diablo-D3> yeah
101 2012-01-16 01:07:22 <Diablo-D3> have to to test the header
102 2012-01-16 01:07:31 <gmaxwell> oh yea duh
103 2012-01-16 01:07:39 <forrestv> the header?
104 2012-01-16 01:07:42 * Diablo-D3 restarts dm
105 2012-01-16 01:07:46 <forrestv> oh
106 2012-01-16 01:08:09 <Diablo-D3> [1/15/12 8:03:13 PM] DEBUG: localhost: Enabling long poll support
107 2012-01-16 01:08:09 <Diablo-D3> [1/15/12 8:03:13 PM] DEBUG: localhost: Enabling roll ntime support, expire after 10 seconds
108 2012-01-16 01:08:09 <Diablo-D3> [1/15/12 8:03:13 PM] P2Pool no delay mode enabled
109 2012-01-16 01:08:09 <Diablo-D3> [1/15/12 8:03:13 PM] DEBUG: localhost: Long poll returned
110 2012-01-16 01:08:09 <Diablo-D3> [1/15/12 8:03:13 PM] Started
111 2012-01-16 01:08:09 <Diablo-D3> [1/15/12 8:03:13 PM] Connecting to: http://localhost:9332/
112 2012-01-16 01:08:14 <Diablo-D3> :D
113 2012-01-16 01:08:21 <forrestv> ignoring the header should increase the reject rate by approximately 5%
114 2012-01-16 01:08:33 <forrestv> hehe
115 2012-01-16 01:08:37 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but I measure reject rates over batches of 10k shares
116 2012-01-16 01:09:29 <forrestv> on line 479 in p2pool/main.py, you could change "target = 2**256//2**32//8 - 1" to "target = 2**256//2**32 - 1"
117 2012-01-16 01:09:45 <forrestv> to make the target difficulty-1 and get accepts 8x faster
118 2012-01-16 01:10:16 subpar has quit (Quit: Leaving)
119 2012-01-16 01:10:22 <Diablo-D3> well, it does what your patch did, just saner
120 2012-01-16 01:10:34 <Diablo-D3> I wonder why this took so long to get done >_>
121 2012-01-16 01:13:40 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: because after you asked today I went and prodded forrestv. I assume it would have been done earlier if you'd done that instead of assuming he knew you wanted a header! :)
122 2012-01-16 01:14:09 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: but I told him I wanted a header when I rejected his github pull request
123 2012-01-16 01:14:20 <gmaxwell> oh well, nagging has value. :)
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129 2012-01-16 01:16:34 <CIA-100> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r3b731b9 / (2 files in 2 dirs): To all the P2Pool users, enjoy - http://git.io/fSjLlQ https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/commit/3b731b9b5439309d52b2503179ff9af502495e79
130 2012-01-16 01:25:38 glisignoli has left ("RARRRR!")
131 2012-01-16 01:28:24 <TuxBlackEdo> <TuxBlackEdo> TvTeam's Upload: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6958532
132 2012-01-16 01:28:24 <TuxBlackEdo> <TuxBlackEdo> Eztv's Upload: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6958521
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138 2012-01-16 01:44:03 <genjix> TuxBlackEdo: score! thanks!
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146 2012-01-16 02:12:10 <Diablo-D3> [08:23:47] <TuxBlackEdo> <TuxBlackEdo> TvTeam's Upload: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6958532
147 2012-01-16 02:12:10 <Diablo-D3> [08:23:48] <TuxBlackEdo> <TuxBlackEdo> Eztv's Upload: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6958521
148 2012-01-16 02:12:22 <Diablo-D3> no, eztv is an rss site
149 2012-01-16 02:12:33 <Diablo-D3> LOL is one of the popular encoders eztv lists
150 2012-01-16 02:12:45 <midnightmagic> EZTV is getting all the people on it, they're good with their distros
151 2012-01-16 02:13:00 <midnightmagic> eztv isn't an rss site, they're a tv release site. the rss feeds are always broken
152 2012-01-16 02:13:06 <Diablo-D3> yeah, eztv is frequent for the... oh lets face it, if its not anime, it sucks
153 2012-01-16 02:13:16 tower has quit (Quit: | ReactOS - The FOSS alternative to MS Windows! | http://www.reactos.org/ | join #ReactOS |)
154 2012-01-16 02:13:20 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: dude, fucking torrent clients suck
155 2012-01-16 02:13:26 <Diablo-D3> I have yet to find one that has a good rss autodownloader
156 2012-01-16 02:13:49 <midnightmagic> the one I have plugged into my vuze client works okay, as long as I get a decent rss feed.
157 2012-01-16 02:13:52 tower has joined
158 2012-01-16 02:14:30 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: Were you one of those people trading obscure anime on edonkey/overnet?
159 2012-01-16 02:15:11 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: Did you ever get to download from the Midnight Seeder or whatever his name was? Some Japanese guy would come online in the middle of the night and upload at multi-multi GB/sec, and complete everyone's anime.
160 2012-01-16 02:15:13 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: no, on opennap
161 2012-01-16 02:15:26 <Diablo-D3> and before that, efnet
162 2012-01-16 02:16:03 <midnightmagic> lol there was this crazy edonkey guy.. I swear he had some kind of insane backbone connection he'd hijacked.
163 2012-01-16 02:16:32 <Diablo-D3> >clone wars
164 2012-01-16 02:16:33 <Diablo-D3> >season 4
165 2012-01-16 02:16:38 <Diablo-D3> are you fucking shitting me?
166 2012-01-16 02:16:39 <midnightmagic> his IP was japanese, and nobody knew who the hell he was.
167 2012-01-16 02:16:41 <Diablo-D3> that is a shitty cgi series
168 2012-01-16 02:16:46 <midnightmagic> no it got good.
169 2012-01-16 02:16:53 <Diablo-D3> I refuse to watch it
170 2012-01-16 02:16:53 <midnightmagic> well.
171 2012-01-16 02:17:10 <midnightmagic> some of it got good. There are episodes were people get torn to shreds by sharkmen
172 2012-01-16 02:17:13 <Diablo-D3> theres only one clone wars, and it involves gennedy tartakovsky
173 2012-01-16 02:17:42 <midnightmagic> like.. heads go floating by the camera and everything, it's brutal.
174 2012-01-16 02:17:54 <Diablo-D3> >shark men
175 2012-01-16 02:17:56 <Diablo-D3> >star wars
176 2012-01-16 02:18:09 <Diablo-D3> ... eh, its a trap.
177 2012-01-16 02:18:35 <diki> omg
178 2012-01-16 02:18:41 <midnightmagic> get an ax?
179 2012-01-16 02:18:43 <diki> the next diff is 55%??
180 2012-01-16 02:19:20 <midnightmagic> diki: uh, no? http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
181 2012-01-16 02:19:23 <diki> ;;bc,stats
182 2012-01-16 02:19:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 162376 | Current Difficulty: 1250757.7392747 | Next Difficulty At Block: 163295 | Next Difficulty In: 919 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 3 hours, 33 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1301530.06028852 | Estimated Percent Change: 4.05932495316
183 2012-01-16 02:19:35 <diki> oh..yeah it seems allchains is borked
184 2012-01-16 02:19:50 <midnightmagic> thanks for the jolt of adrenaline though
185 2012-01-16 02:19:59 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: but yeah like, I dunno
186 2012-01-16 02:20:16 <Diablo-D3> I still need to finish reading the au novels
187 2012-01-16 02:20:29 <midnightmagic> the au novels?
188 2012-01-16 02:20:45 <Diablo-D3> er, eu
189 2012-01-16 02:20:47 * Diablo-D3 blames con
190 2012-01-16 02:21:59 <diki> au novels??
191 2012-01-16 02:23:16 <diki> If it aint manga, it aint for me
192 2012-01-16 02:25:57 Diablo-D3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
193 2012-01-16 02:26:01 <diki> conman has an unfair advantage
194 2012-01-16 02:26:18 <diki> being a doctor and all..
195 2012-01-16 02:27:48 <diki> He was a linux kernel developer, anime/manga translator(i think or was he just the raw provider),author of a compression library
196 2012-01-16 02:27:56 Diablo-D3 has joined
197 2012-01-16 02:27:59 <diki> author of cgminer...yet
198 2012-01-16 02:28:10 <diki> scratch "yet"
199 2012-01-16 02:28:21 <diki> I'd rate his IQ well over 150
200 2012-01-16 02:28:34 dvide has quit ()
201 2012-01-16 02:36:04 <andyroo> my mom just asked, "so is bitcoin a worldwide currency then?"
202 2012-01-16 02:36:06 <Diablo-D3> well over? no
203 2012-01-16 02:36:07 <Diablo-D3> around 150
204 2012-01-16 02:36:09 <andyroo> so it's raising awareness
205 2012-01-16 02:36:25 <Diablo-D3> andyroo: tell your mom that you know the guy who made gpu mining popular
206 2012-01-16 02:36:30 <gmaxwell> haha
207 2012-01-16 02:36:39 <andyroo> haha, sure, once i explain what a GPU is
208 2012-01-16 02:37:01 <andyroo> wait, satoshi is this guy's mom now?
209 2012-01-16 02:37:09 <andyroo> what the hell is going on
210 2012-01-16 02:37:16 <andyroo> a statement embedded in the latest block?
211 2012-01-16 02:37:16 <TuxBlackEdo> turns out
212 2012-01-16 02:37:20 <TuxBlackEdo> satoshi is 3 people
213 2012-01-16 02:37:36 <andyroo> aw, they were doing so well
214 2012-01-16 02:37:36 <TuxBlackEdo> a chick and an asian guy and some other dude
215 2012-01-16 02:37:40 <andyroo> and now it's nonsense
216 2012-01-16 02:37:44 <Diablo-D3> I KNEW IT
217 2012-01-16 02:37:46 <Diablo-D3> AN ASIAN GUY
218 2012-01-16 02:37:56 <TuxBlackEdo> fuckin asian guys...
219 2012-01-16 02:37:56 <Diablo-D3> because asian guys _speak perfect english_
220 2012-01-16 02:38:03 <TuxBlackEdo> i bet someone in here still talks to satoshi
221 2012-01-16 02:38:12 <Diablo-D3> TuxBlackEdo: I do
222 2012-01-16 02:38:13 <TuxBlackEdo> and knows who he is
223 2012-01-16 02:38:23 <Diablo-D3> well, I pray to him anyways
224 2012-01-16 02:38:26 <Diablo-D3> he never answers back :<
225 2012-01-16 02:38:37 <TuxBlackEdo> I pray to my miners to find blocks
226 2012-01-16 02:38:52 <andyroo> ugh, what is with these side plots
227 2012-01-16 02:38:54 <andyroo> nobody cares
228 2012-01-16 02:39:06 <TuxBlackEdo> "DO YOU NOT LIKE HER BECAUSE SHE IS BLACK???"
229 2012-01-16 02:39:12 * Diablo-D3 prays to st eligius, the real one
230 2012-01-16 02:39:14 <andyroo> hahaha
231 2012-01-16 02:39:29 <Diablo-D3> OH GREAT ST ELIGIUS, GIVE ME COINS!
232 2012-01-16 02:39:41 * Diablo-D3 is hit with one of those physical coins
233 2012-01-16 02:40:00 <gjs278> you have to donate 10% of it back though
234 2012-01-16 02:40:04 <andyroo> i bet the grandma doesn't like her because she's block
235 2012-01-16 02:40:06 <andyroo> black*
236 2012-01-16 02:40:08 BurtyB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
237 2012-01-16 02:40:18 <Diablo-D3> HAH
238 2012-01-16 02:40:20 <Diablo-D3> best typo ever
239 2012-01-16 02:40:23 BurtyB has joined
240 2012-01-16 02:40:35 <andyroo> can't you trace the IP address?
241 2012-01-16 02:40:41 <andyroo> yes, i'm asian
242 2012-01-16 02:40:42 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
243 2012-01-16 02:40:47 <andyroo> 1270901
244 2012-01-16 02:40:47 <TuxBlackEdo> lol andyroo
245 2012-01-16 02:40:52 Diablo-D3 is now known as Diablo-D3|asian
246 2012-01-16 02:40:58 <TuxBlackEdo> hehehe that's exactly what he said too
247 2012-01-16 02:41:14 Diablo-D3 is now known as asian!~diablo@pool-70-16-100-121.port.east.myfairpoint.net|Diablo-D3|satosh
248 2012-01-16 02:41:25 <TuxBlackEdo> its kind of nice that bitcoin gets this kind of attention
249 2012-01-16 02:41:33 <TuxBlackEdo> nobody is making tv shows about ubuntu
250 2012-01-16 02:41:40 <andyroo> haha, very true
251 2012-01-16 02:41:49 <andyroo> but nobody lost 500 000 dollars of ubuntu
252 2012-01-16 02:41:53 <andyroo> well, shuttleworth did
253 2012-01-16 02:41:56 <andyroo> repeatedly..
254 2012-01-16 02:41:56 <TuxBlackEdo> haha true
255 2012-01-16 02:42:13 Diablo-D3 is now known as satosh!~diablo@pool-70-16-100-121.port.east.myfairpoint.net|DiabloD3|satoshi
256 2012-01-16 02:43:06 subpar has joined
257 2012-01-16 02:43:07 subpar has quit (Changing host)
258 2012-01-16 02:43:07 subpar has joined
259 2012-01-16 02:43:48 <andyroo> deeper analysis of the IP address
260 2012-01-16 02:43:54 wizkid057 has quit ()
261 2012-01-16 02:43:57 <andyroo> no protection on the source computer
262 2012-01-16 02:44:11 <andyroo> and it was her (the laywer)'s computer!
263 2012-01-16 02:44:16 <andyroo> commercial
264 2012-01-16 02:44:34 <andyroo> damn, those crafty asians, memorizing everyone's IP addresses
265 2012-01-16 02:44:45 <DiabloD3> satoshi!~diablo@pool-70-16-100-121.port.east.myfairpoint.net|guys
266 2012-01-16 02:44:49 <DiabloD3> satoshi!~diablo@pool-70-16-100-121.port.east.myfairpoint.net|change your nick to like mine
267 2012-01-16 02:44:54 <DiabloD3> satoshi!~diablo@pool-70-16-100-121.port.east.myfairpoint.net|so we can all be satoshi
268 2012-01-16 02:44:56 andyroo is now known as andyroo|satoshi
269 2012-01-16 02:44:57 <andyroo> satoshi!~username@S0106c0c1c0894c25.vs.shawcable.net|but why?
270 2012-01-16 02:45:02 subpar has left ()
271 2012-01-16 02:45:10 <DiabloD3> satoshi!~diablo@pool-70-16-100-121.port.east.myfairpoint.net|because it'd be fucking hilarious
272 2012-01-16 02:45:46 epscy is now known as epscy|satoshi
273 2012-01-16 02:46:05 <genjix> guys
274 2012-01-16 02:46:14 <genjix> guys, i have an idea
275 2012-01-16 02:46:16 <genjix> lets
276 2012-01-16 02:46:22 <genjix> lets get naked
277 2012-01-16 02:46:27 <phantomcircuit> ...
278 2012-01-16 02:46:27 <genjix> guys?
279 2012-01-16 02:46:34 <DiabloD3> satoshi!~diablo@pool-70-16-100-121.port.east.myfairpoint.net|hah, Im already naked!
280 2012-01-16 02:46:34 <phantomcircuit> nothx
281 2012-01-16 02:46:35 <andyroo> satoshi!~username@S0106c0c1c0894c25.vs.shawcable.net|i'm goin back to #bitcoin..
282 2012-01-16 02:46:46 <gmaxwell> genjix: did genjix leave his computer unlocked again?
283 2012-01-16 02:46:47 gjs278 is now known as gjs278|satoshi
284 2012-01-16 02:46:49 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|ok
285 2012-01-16 02:47:02 TuxBlackEdo is now known as TuxBlackEdo|sato
286 2012-01-16 02:47:22 JimRogers is now known as JimRogersAtoshi
287 2012-01-16 02:47:57 <genjix> ohh ffs
288 2012-01-16 02:48:06 genjix is now known as genjix|satoshi
289 2012-01-16 02:48:12 <genjix> satoshi!~genjix@beast.intersango.com|confirmity
290 2012-01-16 02:48:31 <DiabloD3> satoshi!~diablo@pool-70-16-100-121.port.east.myfairpoint.net|wee!
291 2012-01-16 02:48:39 <luke-jr> you guys
292 2012-01-16 02:48:41 <genjix> satoshi!~genjix@beast.intersango.com|am i hipster yet?
293 2012-01-16 02:48:45 JimRogersAtoshi is now known as JimRogers|Satosh
294 2012-01-16 02:48:49 <luke-jr> stop violating the IRC RFC on nick length
295 2012-01-16 02:49:06 theymos has joined
296 2012-01-16 02:49:50 JimRogers is now known as Satosh!~JimRogers@c-76-108-182-122.hsd1.fl.comcast.net|TheRealSatoshi
297 2012-01-16 02:50:01 <genjix> satoshi!~genjix@beast.intersango.com|[]__[] <-- check out my trendy glasses
298 2012-01-16 02:50:55 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: macintosh264 opened issue 761 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/761>
299 2012-01-16 02:51:27 TheRealSatoshi is now known as JimRogers
300 2012-01-16 02:52:23 <diki> dat block
301 2012-01-16 02:52:50 <diki> When the bitcoin app first launches, an alert should pop up saying this:
302 2012-01-16 02:52:50 <diki> "ATTENTION:
303 2012-01-16 02:52:50 <diki> Stack is innocent"
304 2012-01-16 02:52:56 <diki> lolwut??
305 2012-01-16 03:00:16 user_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
306 2012-01-16 03:00:18 DiabloD3 is now known as satoshi!~diablo@pool-70-16-100-121.port.east.myfairpoint.net|Diablotochi
307 2012-01-16 03:00:36 Diablotochi is now known as Diatoshi
308 2012-01-16 03:02:02 andyroo is now known as satoshi!~username@S0106c0c1c0894c25.vs.shawcable.net|andytoshi
309 2012-01-16 03:05:12 <genjix> satoshi!~genjix@beast.intersango.com|ZOMG! FANTASTIC EPISODE!!
310 2012-01-16 03:06:16 <theymos> Did it talk a lot about Bitcoin?
311 2012-01-16 03:06:23 <luke-jr> genjix|satoshi: sounds lame
312 2012-01-16 03:07:08 <Diatoshi> gentoshi!
313 2012-01-16 03:07:13 <Diatoshi> theytoshi
314 2012-01-16 03:07:15 <Diatoshi> luketoshi
315 2012-01-16 03:08:06 <gmaxwell> theymos: yes.
316 2012-01-16 03:08:41 <theymos> Worth watching? I was just going to read a synopsis of it.
317 2012-01-16 03:09:15 <gmaxwell> It's kinda boring, to be honest. But the depiction of bitcoin was positive.
318 2012-01-16 03:09:25 <gmaxwell> (and pretty much accurate)
319 2012-01-16 03:10:08 <mtrlt> i thought it was great :P
320 2012-01-16 03:10:32 <Diatoshi> gmaxtoshi!
321 2012-01-16 03:12:08 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
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323 2012-01-16 03:15:01 TuxBlackEdo is now known as sato!~TuxBlackE@unaffiliated/tuxblackedo|TuxBlackSatoshi
324 2012-01-16 03:16:31 <andytoshi> hey, i've got a CS programming question for you guys
325 2012-01-16 03:16:43 <andytoshi> how can i efficiently generate permutations in an array
326 2012-01-16 03:16:59 <andytoshi> i was using a linked list because it's easy, but i need random access..
327 2012-01-16 03:17:31 <nanotube> yea, on an absolute scale of 'exciting tv to watch' it wasn't a great show. even on the scale of goodwife episodes it was pretty average
328 2012-01-16 03:17:44 <nanotube> but talked a lot about bitcoin, and generally was very positive
329 2012-01-16 03:17:48 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: It's a dud! It's a dud! It's a du...)
330 2012-01-16 03:18:38 <andytoshi> wait, i've got knuth downstairs..
331 2012-01-16 03:18:50 <cjdelisle> what was the show?
332 2012-01-16 03:18:56 <cjdelisle> title?
333 2012-01-16 03:19:00 <nanotube> goodwife
334 2012-01-16 03:19:04 <nanotube> , the
335 2012-01-16 03:19:07 <cjdelisle> ahh
336 2012-01-16 03:19:11 <nanotube> ;;goodwife
337 2012-01-16 03:19:11 <gribble> 1 hour, 14 minutes, and 34 seconds ago
338 2012-01-16 03:19:17 <nanotube> hehe guess it's over now :)
339 2012-01-16 03:19:20 <nanotube> ;;alias remove goodwife
340 2012-01-16 03:19:20 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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350 2012-01-16 03:34:29 JimRogers is now known as NotJimRogers
351 2012-01-16 03:37:17 NotJimRogers is now known as JimRogers
352 2012-01-16 03:39:03 Guest26645 is now known as ForceMajeure
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354 2012-01-16 03:46:56 genjix is now known as satoshi!~genjix@beast.intersango.com|genjix
355 2012-01-16 03:47:09 <genjix> theymos: was fucking incredible
356 2012-01-16 03:47:22 <genjix> zomg bitcoin was represented so so so good
357 2012-01-16 03:47:40 <theymos> I'm watching it now. It does seem pretty good so far.
358 2012-01-16 03:47:46 wasabi3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
359 2012-01-16 03:54:17 forrestv is now known as forrestoshi
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365 2012-01-16 04:26:01 RobinPKR_ is now known as RobinPKR
366 2012-01-16 04:34:49 <genjix> review of the episode: http://bitcoinmedia.com/good-wife-episode-review/
367 2012-01-16 04:34:58 <genjix> for people who want the rundown
368 2012-01-16 04:39:30 <JFK911> does janet reno give them the death penalty
369 2012-01-16 04:39:33 Zatoshi has joined
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371 2012-01-16 04:41:18 TuxBlackSatoshi is now known as Latoshi
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379 2012-01-16 04:54:20 <nanotube> genjix: crazy finance tv personality is not a 'tip of the hat to max keiser'. he's a real crazy finance tv personality, jim kramer.
380 2012-01-16 04:54:32 <nanotube> other than that, nice writeup
381 2012-01-16 04:57:05 Folklore has joined
382 2012-01-16 04:57:32 * helo happy after seeing amir on keiser report
383 2012-01-16 04:57:56 <Diatoshi> dude
384 2012-01-16 04:58:03 <Diatoshi> jim kramer isnt a tv personality
385 2012-01-16 04:58:11 <Diatoshi> he was the manager of one of the largest hedge funds in history
386 2012-01-16 04:58:30 <wirehead> and a tv personality
387 2012-01-16 04:58:51 <Diatoshi> he has done underhanded deals for congressmen and the 1%, he has collapsed companies for profits, and his "show" is really just a scam
388 2012-01-16 04:59:00 <Diatoshi> he tells his 1% friends what hes going to recommend a day or two before the show
389 2012-01-16 04:59:11 <Diatoshi> they buy it, and then he mentions it, and all the cramerites buy this shit stock
390 2012-01-16 04:59:17 <Diatoshi> and they sell at the top
391 2012-01-16 04:59:31 <wirehead> not saying he's a talking head, but the guy does have a heck of a personality
392 2012-01-16 05:00:03 <Diatoshi> wirehead: its basically fictional
393 2012-01-16 05:00:21 cotton1 has joined
394 2012-01-16 05:00:36 <Diatoshi> he also admitted to admitting fraud and violating multiple federal laws during an interview aired on national television
395 2012-01-16 05:00:46 <wirehead> yet he remains on air
396 2012-01-16 05:00:50 peck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
397 2012-01-16 05:01:03 <Diatoshi> helps having powerful friends
398 2012-01-16 05:01:12 <wirehead> and would-be investors still try to 'capitalize' on his bad advice
399 2012-01-16 05:01:36 <genjix> nanotube: thanks :) i need to be more american
400 2012-01-16 05:01:52 <nanotube> genjix: :)
401 2012-01-16 05:01:53 <genjix> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_2lGkEU4Xs
402 2012-01-16 05:02:04 <genjix> i will take on the message of this song
403 2012-01-16 05:02:13 <genjix> and assimilate your ways
404 2012-01-16 05:02:45 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
405 2012-01-16 05:03:26 <Folklore> Thank for being professional and following network guidelines by specifying the fact this channel logs
406 2012-01-16 05:03:30 <Folklore> is appreciated
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426 2012-01-16 06:14:05 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
427 2012-01-16 06:18:52 <Diatoshi> gmaxwell: does git work under windows?
428 2012-01-16 06:19:12 pickett_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
429 2012-01-16 06:19:16 <theymos> It does. I use it.
430 2012-01-16 06:19:48 <Diatoshi> well
431 2012-01-16 06:19:55 <gmaxwell> theymos: you use windows? I'm sorry!
432 2012-01-16 06:20:00 <Diatoshi> badum tish
433 2012-01-16 06:20:12 <gmaxwell> Diatoshi: you use git? I'm sorry!
434 2012-01-16 06:20:18 <gmaxwell> :)
435 2012-01-16 06:20:34 * Diatoshi smacks gmaxwell
436 2012-01-16 06:22:38 <theymos> I don't feel like I'm missing any features by using Windows instead of Linux. I can play games and run Windows apps, but I also have cygwin in my path so I can run ls, bash, etc.
437 2012-01-16 06:23:08 <Diatoshi> bwhahaha
438 2012-01-16 06:23:10 <Diatoshi> cygwin
439 2012-01-16 06:23:16 <Diatoshi> lolololololol
440 2012-01-16 06:23:42 pickett has joined
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444 2012-01-16 06:35:12 <andytoshi> git is a huge PITA under windows
445 2012-01-16 06:35:30 <andytoshi> is very slow because it was not designed with ntfs in mind
446 2012-01-16 06:36:22 <andytoshi> you need to make sure your /etc/services file has port 9418 in it
447 2012-01-16 06:36:37 <andytoshi> (that one bit me with cygwin, and the error message was not instructive)
448 2012-01-16 06:37:06 <andytoshi> in the end i would up with some other nonsensical error message, and switched to mercurial for that project
449 2012-01-16 06:37:23 <andytoshi> mostly, i try to limit exposure to windows and its users ;)
450 2012-01-16 06:41:59 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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452 2012-01-16 06:44:16 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|lol what
453 2012-01-16 06:44:21 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
454 2012-01-16 06:44:21 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|missing any features on windows
455 2012-01-16 06:44:25 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|everything
456 2012-01-16 06:45:12 <theymos> What features?
457 2012-01-16 06:45:35 <andytoshi> grep/sed/awk are the obvious ones
458 2012-01-16 06:45:46 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|mounting nfs shares and it actually working
459 2012-01-16 06:45:49 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|sshfs
460 2012-01-16 06:45:51 <andytoshi> then df, du, brctl
461 2012-01-16 06:46:00 <andytoshi> iw
462 2012-01-16 06:46:25 <andytoshi> last i checked, windows doesn't even have ssh by default
463 2012-01-16 06:46:31 <theymos> I have all of those command-line tools because cygwin is in my path.
464 2012-01-16 06:47:12 <andytoshi> alright, but `find' still does the wrong thing
465 2012-01-16 06:47:26 <andytoshi> and windows utilities don't like in */bin
466 2012-01-16 06:47:31 <andytoshi> so $PATH is useless for them
467 2012-01-16 06:47:36 <andytoshi> live*
468 2012-01-16 06:47:38 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|an actual depency figuring package manager
469 2012-01-16 06:47:46 <andytoshi> plus /etc/services is missing a ton of protocols
470 2012-01-16 06:47:55 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|conky
471 2012-01-16 06:48:05 <andytoshi> you don't have make, gcc, any lisp environment
472 2012-01-16 06:48:08 <andytoshi> vi is slow as hell
473 2012-01-16 06:48:20 <theymos> I use vim on Windows. It works fine.
474 2012-01-16 06:48:31 <andytoshi> really? cool
475 2012-01-16 06:48:47 <andytoshi> at work i found it took forever to load and to save
476 2012-01-16 06:49:08 sytse has joined
477 2012-01-16 06:49:13 <andytoshi> i would up hauling a 800Mhz box out from IT, putting linux on it
478 2012-01-16 06:49:19 <andytoshi> and working over ssh most of the time
479 2012-01-16 06:49:33 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|gparted
480 2012-01-16 06:49:43 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|xfs and it's snapshotting
481 2012-01-16 06:49:46 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|its*
482 2012-01-16 06:49:55 <andytoshi> text-based browsers, mail clients, newsreaders, irc clients
483 2012-01-16 06:50:06 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|most of the newsreaders are both
484 2012-01-16 06:50:08 <andytoshi> media players
485 2012-01-16 06:50:22 <andytoshi> tiling window managers
486 2012-01-16 06:50:24 <andytoshi> that one is HUGE
487 2012-01-16 06:50:26 <theymos> Media Player Classic is Windows-only and is the best media player ever.
488 2012-01-16 06:50:32 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|dbus
489 2012-01-16 06:50:38 <luke-jr> theymos: you know, I can play games and run Windows apps just fine on Linux tooâ¦
490 2012-01-16 06:50:45 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|mplayer is the best media player
491 2012-01-16 06:50:47 <luke-jr> (not that there are any Windows apps worth running)
492 2012-01-16 06:50:58 <andytoshi> non-microsoft filesystem support, media formats, document formats
493 2012-01-16 06:51:16 <andytoshi> really, that all falls under `lack of package manager'
494 2012-01-16 06:51:42 <theymos> I don't use a package manager on my Linux systems anyway. It annoys me that I don't know what they're doing.
495 2012-01-16 06:51:48 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|lol what
496 2012-01-16 06:52:03 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|emerge doesnt do anything you dont tell it to do
497 2012-01-16 06:52:10 <luke-jr> theymos: MPC is nothing special
498 2012-01-16 06:52:21 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|maybe like the ubuntu rolling based but gentoo you know exactly what's going to happen
499 2012-01-16 06:53:03 <theymos> Package managers put stuff in strange distro-specified places with strange distro-specific code changes and non-default config settings.
500 2012-01-16 06:53:11 <andytoshi> mpd, udev
501 2012-01-16 06:53:15 <andytoshi> all of /proc, /sys
502 2012-01-16 06:53:34 <andytoshi> can you use echo to flip every LED on your system, on windows?
503 2012-01-16 06:53:39 <andytoshi> cron is another huge one
504 2012-01-16 06:53:46 <luke-jr> andytoshi: I think he meant useful features
505 2012-01-16 06:53:53 <andytoshi> oh..
506 2012-01-16 06:53:56 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|ea games puts stuff in the wrong place too
507 2012-01-16 06:53:57 <theymos> You can schedule tasks on Windows.
508 2012-01-16 06:53:58 <andytoshi> i don't know a lot of those then
509 2012-01-16 06:54:05 <andytoshi> :P
510 2012-01-16 06:54:18 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|I've never once went to my windows registry folder and said man this is really well organized
511 2012-01-16 06:54:22 <luke-jr> Windows is missing fork()
512 2012-01-16 06:54:25 <luke-jr> that's the big one
513 2012-01-16 06:55:24 <andytoshi> its filesystems don't have softlinks
514 2012-01-16 06:55:26 <andytoshi> or hardlinks
515 2012-01-16 06:55:35 <andytoshi> that's a huge pita, i find
516 2012-01-16 06:55:40 <theymos> You can create both symlinks and hardlinks in NTFS.
517 2012-01-16 06:55:43 <luke-jr> andytoshi: yes, they do
518 2012-01-16 06:56:01 <andytoshi> really? jeez, i've gotta learn windows sometime..
519 2012-01-16 06:58:35 <phantomcircuit> theymos, uh no
520 2012-01-16 06:58:42 <luke-jr> no exec() either
521 2012-01-16 06:58:57 <luke-jr> Cygwin does some very ugly hacks to emulate fork and exec though
522 2012-01-16 06:59:00 <egecko> can anyone enlighten me some on what the gen setting in the conf file does?
523 2012-01-16 06:59:12 <luke-jr> egecko: slows down your computer
524 2012-01-16 06:59:15 <egecko> obivously it "attempts to generate bitcoins"
525 2012-01-16 06:59:16 <luke-jr> egecko: for testing
526 2012-01-16 06:59:24 <egecko> what exactly does that mean tho?
527 2012-01-16 06:59:25 <theymos> phantomcircuit: No to links? You can use the mklink command to create them (mklink /h for hardlinks).
528 2012-01-16 06:59:36 <luke-jr> egecko: it just slows down your computer, nothing else
529 2012-01-16 06:59:44 <egecko> i assume that's basically how namecoin works
530 2012-01-16 06:59:54 <phantomcircuit> you can use hardlinks and symlinks with NTFS version 6 and above
531 2012-01-16 06:59:56 <phantomcircuit> (iirc)
532 2012-01-16 07:00:04 <phantomcircuit> ie vista/win7
533 2012-01-16 07:00:15 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: pretty sure I used them in Win2k
534 2012-01-16 07:00:32 <phantomcircuit> i think that's hardlinks in win2k
535 2012-01-16 07:00:39 <phantomcircuit> they were supposed to be for the POSIX layer
536 2012-01-16 07:01:03 <phantomcircuit> symlinks is definitely not available in xp
537 2012-01-16 07:01:50 <luke-jr> .lnk files are symlinks
538 2012-01-16 07:01:57 <phantomcircuit> no they're not
539 2012-01-16 07:02:02 <phantomcircuit> they're a normal file
540 2012-01-16 07:02:13 <luke-jr> symlinks are normal files :p
541 2012-01-16 07:02:31 <josephcp> lnk files aren't recognized by programs unless explicitly designed to is the problem :-(
542 2012-01-16 07:02:35 <phantomcircuit> if you open a .lnk you will get binary garbage
543 2012-01-16 07:02:38 <theymos> I'm pretty sure one or both of symlinks/hardlinks were in older versions, too. Win7/Vista has a new "junction point" object, though.
544 2012-01-16 07:02:44 <egecko> ahha.. ok.. so gen just spawns some cpu miners
545 2012-01-16 07:02:44 <phantomcircuit> you will not get the linked to file
546 2012-01-16 07:02:51 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: you can (in theory) open a symlink on Linux too
547 2012-01-16 07:03:12 <phantomcircuit> if you call open() on a symlink you get what it links to
548 2012-01-16 07:03:21 <phantomcircuit> if you call open() on a lnk you get the contents of the lnk
549 2012-01-16 07:03:36 <luke-jr> that's an API issue
550 2012-01-16 07:03:55 <phantomcircuit> sure
551 2012-01-16 07:04:02 <phantomcircuit> but it's a pervasive one
552 2012-01-16 07:04:07 <phantomcircuit> a .lnk is not a symlink
553 2012-01-16 07:04:40 <phantomcircuit> theymos, hardlinks exist in xp (although you'll almost certainly break things) and symlinks were introduced in vista
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556 2012-01-16 07:07:17 abragin has joined
557 2012-01-16 07:08:43 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|I know one
558 2012-01-16 07:08:50 <gjs278> satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|actually being able to delete files that are "in use"
559 2012-01-16 07:17:49 <diki> bitcoin-qt crashes on solo
560 2012-01-16 07:18:00 <diki> running psj with bitcoin-qt and namecoinD
561 2012-01-16 07:19:00 ThomasV has joined
562 2012-01-16 07:19:11 <egecko> i asked on -mining, maybe this is a better place to ask.. MIN_TX_FEE and MIN_RELAY_TX_FEE .... who picked the values they are at now, and what are the effects of changing them on the node?
563 2012-01-16 07:19:20 <egecko> and why are they hardcoded?
564 2012-01-16 07:19:30 <phantomcircuit> the developers do
565 2012-01-16 07:19:33 <phantomcircuit> feel free to change them
566 2012-01-16 07:19:47 <gmaxwell> egecko: thats not what you asked in -mining.
567 2012-01-16 07:19:49 <egecko> right, but id like to know the consequences of it before just doing it :)
568 2012-01-16 07:20:00 <gmaxwell> egecko: and they don't have the effect you were asking about in mining.
569 2012-01-16 07:20:05 <egecko> correct, im trying to approach the same issue for a different audience :)
570 2012-01-16 07:20:12 <gmaxwell> MIN_TX_FEE is _NOT_ a minimum tx fee.
571 2012-01-16 07:20:38 <egecko> it is the minimum fee that your node will accept for its blocks
572 2012-01-16 07:20:44 <gmaxwell> No. It is not.
573 2012-01-16 07:20:58 <gmaxwell> The code will happily mine free transactions.
574 2012-01-16 07:23:08 <gmaxwell> Here is a block I recently mined with the current stock bitcoin code, https://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000000914e2dfdcd594dd2c2519c320d4044941da35a77ef2aedd50f8 As you can see, it contains many free transactions.
575 2012-01-16 07:24:33 <gmaxwell> including deepbit payments?
576 2012-01-16 07:24:35 <egecko> main.cpp in AcceptToMemoryPool() : // Don't accept it if it can't get into a block if (nFees < GetMinFee(1000, true, true)) return error("AcceptToMemoryPool() : not enough fees");
577 2012-01-16 07:24:49 <gmaxwell> [tycho]: process your own blocks.
578 2012-01-16 07:25:31 Fnar has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
579 2012-01-16 07:26:03 <gmaxwell> egecko: yes, thats the code, now look at getminfee in main.h
580 2012-01-16 07:26:12 <egecko> yes, ive read that too
581 2012-01-16 07:27:23 <gmaxwell> egecko: in the reference client fees are only required for transactions which fail the anti-DDOS heuristics, as I explained to you in #bitcoin-mining
582 2012-01-16 07:28:02 <egecko> sure, there is that check to prevent the penny flooding
583 2012-01-16 07:28:24 <egecko> but that doesn't mean that's the only ramification of it
584 2012-01-16 07:28:33 <gmaxwell> egecko: and AllowFree().
585 2012-01-16 07:29:30 <gmaxwell> egecko: and don't "sure" me please, above you wrote "it is the minimum fee that your node will accept for its blocks" and this is patently untre.
586 2012-01-16 07:29:33 <gmaxwell> er untrue.
587 2012-01-16 07:29:35 <egecko> so whats to say i dont accept free transactions? i could easily change that for my node
588 2012-01-16 07:30:15 <gmaxwell> Sure, you can. If you change the code then it does different things. :)
589 2012-01-16 07:30:27 <egecko> my wording may reflect my still gathering of knowledge, but im asking sincerely the best way i can phrase it given my understanding which isn't trivial
590 2012-01-16 07:31:14 <gmaxwell> egecko: I apologize for being harsh, I get a little irritated when I have to play code-citing with someone who knows less than me on the subject but thinks they know more.
591 2012-01-16 07:31:48 <egecko> oh i by no way think i know more than any of the bitcoin devs, i just started back in june of last year :)
592 2012-01-16 07:32:59 <egecko> im trying to comprehend the bigger picture a bit better is all, if i'm going to be mining, it seems like i want to be mining solo or at least thats the direction i seem to be leaning now
593 2012-01-16 07:33:16 <egecko> and if im mining for the long haul, then transaction fees matter :)
594 2012-01-16 07:33:27 <egecko> even though they are miniscule at the time being
595 2012-01-16 07:33:41 <gmaxwell> something like 0.02 BTC/block on average right now.
596 2012-01-16 07:34:00 m3rde has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
597 2012-01-16 07:34:07 <gmaxwell> They probably won't matter for 8 years or so at least.
598 2012-01-16 07:34:36 <theymos> Increasing fees in your code is pointless because doing so will not convince anyone to send more fees and adding more transactions to your blocks is basically free.
599 2012-01-16 07:35:23 <gmaxwell> Yea, my comment in #bitcoin-mining was that right now a single block could pretty much carry the whole day's traffic.
600 2012-01-16 07:38:00 <egecko> how many transactions would we need to have going on in the network to get to 50btc in transaction fees?
601 2012-01-16 07:38:06 <egecko> given the current averages
602 2012-01-16 07:38:49 <gmaxwell> Thats not really a reasonable question.
603 2012-01-16 07:39:10 merde has joined
604 2012-01-16 07:39:34 <egecko> well how many average transactions per block are there?
605 2012-01-16 07:40:08 <gmaxwell> For the purpose of that analysis almost no txn have feesâ the ones that there there are mostly the anti-dos fees which have a different motivation than other kinds of fees. So the answer would be ~infinite.
606 2012-01-16 07:40:10 <theymos> About 40.
607 2012-01-16 07:41:16 <egecko> ahha, so when bitcoin creation ends, the miners are just going to stick around for anti-ddos transaction fees as incentive to secure the transaction network?
608 2012-01-16 07:41:23 <gmaxwell> You can fit on the order of 4k transactions in a block.
609 2012-01-16 07:41:52 <gmaxwell> egecko: ... no the anti-ddos fees are entirely orthogonal to that.
610 2012-01-16 07:42:30 <gmaxwell> egecko: the miners will earn fees paid by people in an effort to compete for the limited space in the blocks.
611 2012-01-16 07:42:55 Joric has joined
612 2012-01-16 07:43:03 <gmaxwell> (fees no one pays today because the space isn't meaningfully limited compared to the the transaction volumes)
613 2012-01-16 07:43:29 <egecko> ahha
614 2012-01-16 07:43:57 <gmaxwell> egecko: bitcoin 'creation' ends in ~2140 fwiw (and even later if the precision is increased before then)
615 2012-01-16 07:44:28 b4epoche_ has joined
616 2012-01-16 07:44:35 <egecko> but why does block creation have to stop at the same time?
617 2012-01-16 07:44:39 gjs278 has quit (satoshi!~root@c-71-194-46-142.hsd1.in.comcast.net|Remote host closed the connection)
618 2012-01-16 07:44:46 <gmaxwell> egecko: it doesn't.
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620 2012-01-16 07:45:40 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
621 2012-01-16 07:45:51 <gmaxwell> its seperate, bitcoins are created as a side effect of creating blocks.. blocks will be created forever in the system. Though eventually the subsidy becomes so small it rounds to zero unless the people change the system to increase precision.
622 2012-01-16 07:45:59 da2ce7 has joined
623 2012-01-16 07:46:14 <egecko> right!
624 2012-01-16 07:46:34 <egecko> so why not just have the txn fees increase over time to offset the subsidy?
625 2012-01-16 07:47:07 <theymos> That's economic planning and it would fail.
626 2012-01-16 07:47:17 <gmaxwell> programatically? we don't know what the economic behavior will be in the future.
627 2012-01-16 07:48:01 <gmaxwell> egecko: for example, if 1 bitcoin is worth a million dollars in 2090, .. would it make sense to still have 50 btc subsidy + fees?
628 2012-01-16 07:48:19 <egecko> but if you get to the end point, and the subsidy is not there and the txn fees don't replace the mining revenue, miners will leave and that's just as bad imo
629 2012-01-16 07:48:51 <gmaxwell> Just as bad as what?
630 2012-01-16 07:49:19 <egecko> as trying to do some kind of economic planning for the entire bitcoin network
631 2012-01-16 07:49:28 <gmaxwell> As rewarding 50 million dollars worth of economic incentive for creating a block? and killing the system because no one will pay that much to have their transactions processed?
632 2012-01-16 07:49:48 <gmaxwell> Nonsense. If people are unhappy with the network hash rate they can contribute directly by adding mining capacity.
633 2012-01-16 07:50:55 <gmaxwell> If bitcoin is widely used then presumably a great many people will consider it in their interest to contribute to making it secure even if they don't make big mining profits as a resultâ they profit from the security of the bitcoin economy.
634 2012-01-16 07:51:17 <gmaxwell> (same reason people mine free txn todayâ they don't pay you directly but you profit from the success they add to the bitcoin ecosystem)
635 2012-01-16 07:51:17 <egecko> hrm
636 2012-01-16 07:52:03 <gmaxwell> and, also, if it's widely used and the block size stays reasonably limited, then there will be competition for space in the blocks which will allow the market to find the right fees.
637 2012-01-16 07:52:26 <egecko> but what controls the block size?
638 2012-01-16 07:52:40 <egecko> its just the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE constant
639 2012-01-16 07:52:45 <gmaxwell> It's a protocol rule. Same thing that governs inflation. Every single node in the system.
640 2012-01-16 07:53:03 <egecko> its set at a million
641 2012-01-16 07:53:09 <egecko> i assume thats bytes?
642 2012-01-16 07:53:11 <gmaxwell> No, it's not "just" it's a protocol rule. You could replace bitcoin with paypal with the same upgrade required to change that.
643 2012-01-16 07:53:22 <gmaxwell> yes, the max is a million bytes.
644 2012-01-16 07:54:03 <gmaxwell> The fee decisions are local ones.. e.g. you can require 1 btc fee .. or no fees.. and you're still compatible with the network.
645 2012-01-16 07:54:12 <theymos> It's expected that the max block size will be increased periodically once it's known for sure that every full node can handle the increase.
646 2012-01-16 07:54:36 <gmaxwell> But the size is a protocol rule, if you change that size then every single node must be updated or it will end up on a fork.
647 2012-01-16 07:55:50 <egecko> right, cause mismatched blocks cant come from the same chain
648 2012-01-16 07:55:59 <egecko> or wouldnt come from the same chain
649 2012-01-16 07:56:55 <theymos> Well, old clients would reject some blocks created by new clients and the network would split.
650 2012-01-16 07:58:15 <gmaxwell> same thing as increasing the subsidy to 100 in a block or any other protocol rule violation.
651 2012-01-16 07:58:41 <egecko> so with namecoin, is it basically the same as bitcoin (different purpose of course) just the chain is identifiably different, e.g. starts with a different hash?
652 2012-01-16 07:58:52 <theymos> Some people propose to have the max block size automatically increase based on some algorithm, but this sounds a little too much like economic planning by algorithm to me.
653 2012-01-16 07:59:33 <gmaxwell> theymos: I question the wisdom of increasing the maximum blocksizeâ I worry that we might do that liberally increase it when the subsidy was high and we don't care about space competition. ... then we doom bitcoin to failure later by making effective space competition impossible.
654 2012-01-16 07:59:38 <theymos> Namecoin has required "fees" (actually destroyed by the network) which also halve every regular time period.
655 2012-01-16 08:00:22 <gmaxwell> the namecoin fees are designed to prevet the system from being made worthless by early speculative registrations..
656 2012-01-16 08:00:49 <egecko> regarding block size, from my perspective, i'd only be worried about the block size issue from a diskspace storage issue - petaterrabytes of disk storage could prove costly
657 2012-01-16 08:00:54 <gmaxwell> but I think they are failing now. The fees are low enough that people are now registring all of /usr/dict/words .. and yet namecoin is hardly used / usable yet. :(
658 2012-01-16 08:01:08 <gmaxwell> egecko: then you're thinking about it wrong.
659 2012-01-16 08:01:16 Diatoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
660 2012-01-16 08:01:54 <gmaxwell> egecko: without the block size limit then it would be quite hard to collect fees in the future without anti-competative collusion by miners.
661 2012-01-16 08:03:01 <gmaxwell> A limit both helps preserve the decenteraliztion of bitcoinâ by making sure lots of people can operate full nodesâ as well as acting as a kind of consensus collusion by the users of the system to make fees sensible.
662 2012-01-16 08:03:49 <egecko> fascinating
663 2012-01-16 08:04:42 <egecko> so how did merged mining synchronize the two block chains?
664 2012-01-16 08:04:55 <gmaxwell> It does not synchronize chains at all.
665 2012-01-16 08:04:57 <theymos> gmaxwell: Yeah, I wouldn't want to increase it until it actually becomes a problem. But artificially limiting it just to increase fees makes me uneasy. It sounds kind of like price fixing. There are economic problems if you make the max block size too big, but I'd like to see a solution that is more obviously free-market. Mike Hearn has proposed a few ways the fee system could maybe work without a max block size.
666 2012-01-16 08:05:27 <gmaxwell> theymos: it is a kind of price fixingâ but hell, so is the fact that the subsidy is fixed and goes down. :)
667 2012-01-16 08:06:27 <egecko> maybe a futures market could help determine that?
668 2012-01-16 08:06:30 <theymos> Llet's not introduce any more price fixing if it can be helped, though. (I'm not totally sure it can be helped, of course.)
669 2012-01-16 08:06:38 <gmaxwell> theymos: it's a very transparent kind of price fixingâ it's just creating some artificial scarcity like our bitcoin limit does. I worry witout it we'll get far worse anti-competative behavior via miner collusion. (esp with the current evidence of extreme hash power concentration)
670 2012-01-16 08:07:29 <gmaxwell> egecko: if you think of an attemted block header like a lottery ticket, merged mining just make the bitcoin lottery tickets also accepted by other chains.
671 2012-01-16 08:08:14 <kiba> gmaxwell: your good wife message is called a cipher?
672 2012-01-16 08:08:36 <gmaxwell> kiba: it's called 'the bitcoin byte order confuses even me' :)
673 2012-01-16 08:09:36 <da2ce7> hello all :)
674 2012-01-16 08:09:43 <kiba> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/oj2r4/strings_bitcoinblk0001dat_grep_sugliyt/
675 2012-01-16 08:09:53 <kiba> gmaxwell: hopefully someone will do better
676 2012-01-16 08:10:01 <gmaxwell> haha
677 2012-01-16 08:10:30 <gmaxwell> well, I could do it again right using that as a template for what the order actually will come out as .. but meh. :)
678 2012-01-16 08:11:09 <kiba> life imitate art
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698 2012-01-16 09:08:12 <jine> ** NOTICE ** Bitcoins.lc is switching system, pool-software, domain and a lot more - NOW. Bitcoins.lc will redirect to Bitlc.net which is the new system/site/domain. It will be a bit glitchy for a few hours starting now, but bare with us. :)
699 2012-01-16 09:10:46 <edcba> you know there is a /notice command ?
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736 2012-01-16 10:24:53 <CIA-100> bitcoin: p2k * r78b1402331a0 ecoinpool/apps/ (5 files in 2 dirs): External Coinbaser http://tinyurl.com/7cx4ax3
737 2012-01-16 10:26:28 larsivi has joined
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742 2012-01-16 10:36:42 <genjix> is this gmaxwell ?
743 2012-01-16 10:36:43 <genjix> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell
744 2012-01-16 10:36:51 <genjix> same people, right?
745 2012-01-16 10:37:52 <doublec> yes
746 2012-01-16 10:38:04 <genjix> thanks
747 2012-01-16 10:39:06 <genjix> i heard he put the 'stack is innocent' message in the blockchain :)
748 2012-01-16 10:40:58 <Joric> [14:48] <Joric> i'm sending ///// Stack is innocent ///// right now
749 2012-01-16 10:40:58 <Joric> [14:48] <coingenuity> lol
750 2012-01-16 10:40:58 <Joric> [14:49] <gmaxwell> Joric: You're late for my stack is guilty.
751 2012-01-16 10:41:53 gjs278 has joined
752 2012-01-16 10:42:14 <Joric> have no idea who send it, obviously not us
753 2012-01-16 10:42:31 <genjix> Joric: ah ok
754 2012-01-16 10:42:37 <genjix> thanks for that
755 2012-01-16 10:44:08 <Joric> it's somewhere in the last blocks at 99% of the blockchain
756 2012-01-16 10:44:51 <genjix> yeah i saw it... just curious who it was lol
757 2012-01-16 10:45:15 <Joric> sadly the episode was made a few months ago :(
758 2012-01-16 10:45:48 <genjix> i dont think so. they were doing the casting call up until recently
759 2012-01-16 10:48:02 <Joric> i'll try to find out the exact date of embedding
760 2012-01-16 10:48:14 <genjix> nah dont sweat it
761 2012-01-16 10:49:21 wasabi1 has joined
762 2012-01-16 10:50:17 <ThomasV> how do I recover the public key from a ECC signature?
763 2012-01-16 10:51:04 <edcba> give me your wallet file i'll do it for you
764 2012-01-16 10:51:09 <ThomasV> lol
765 2012-01-16 10:51:24 wasabi3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
766 2012-01-16 10:51:26 * edcba has some webservice idea
767 2012-01-16 10:51:49 <edcba> howmuchmoneyinyourbtcwallet.com
768 2012-01-16 10:51:52 <ThomasV> I am asking this because I want to implement 'verifymessage'
769 2012-01-16 10:51:57 <edcba> you just have to uplaod your wallet !
770 2012-01-16 10:54:35 <Joric> it's in the block 162425, 00000000000001c34b2c76e47138220243d644d7ec1cf9b22391fd072e58dcb2
771 2012-01-16 10:54:42 <Joric> (WKwQv0/////Stack is innocent/////KaZMl82
772 2012-01-16 10:54:58 <Joric> Time: Mon Jan 16 15:12:10 2012
773 2012-01-16 10:55:36 <doublec> I'm disappointed blockchain.info doesn't give the ip address mentioned in the episode
774 2012-01-16 10:55:44 <Joric> probably localtime? 1 sec
775 2012-01-16 10:56:13 <Joric> 2012-01-16 09:12:10 UTC
776 2012-01-16 10:56:53 <Joric> 1.5 hours ago
777 2012-01-16 10:57:43 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
778 2012-01-16 10:58:08 <Joric> and we were talking about that just 2 hours ago
779 2012-01-16 10:58:47 davout has joined
780 2012-01-16 10:59:30 <Joric> those timestamps were utc+6
781 2012-01-16 11:04:32 <Joric> it's in the coinbase http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000001c34b2c76e47138220243d644d7ec1cf9b22391fd072e58dcb2 note 2f2f2f2f2f (/////)
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785 2012-01-16 11:07:04 <Joric> the block was found by 78.47.187.252
786 2012-01-16 11:07:19 <Joric> germany
787 2012-01-16 11:08:13 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
788 2012-01-16 11:08:27 <edcba> how do you know who found the block ?
789 2012-01-16 11:09:08 <doublec> edcba: http://blockchain.info/block-height/162425
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830 2012-01-16 13:39:53 <edcba> doublec: it doesn't mean it's the real origin
831 2012-01-16 13:42:11 mcorlett has joined
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836 2012-01-16 13:55:31 <sipa> how was the good wife episode?
837 2012-01-16 13:55:41 <MacRohard> not bad, honestly
838 2012-01-16 13:56:11 <MacRohard> they used the words 'bit coin' extensively throughout
839 2012-01-16 13:56:24 <MacRohard> i'm sure everyone will remember it
840 2012-01-16 14:03:26 <UukGoblin> like Bush with his 'terror'?
841 2012-01-16 14:04:25 * UukGoblin will watch it GMT-tonight
842 2012-01-16 14:04:48 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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849 2012-01-16 14:14:55 Clipse has joined
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852 2012-01-16 14:22:33 helo_ is now known as helo
853 2012-01-16 14:23:10 slush1 has joined
854 2012-01-16 14:25:52 <helo> aside from saying it is entirely illegal
855 2012-01-16 14:27:43 <edcba> good wife ?
856 2012-01-16 14:27:46 <edcba> wtf is that ?
857 2012-01-16 14:28:16 <edcba> wtf lol
858 2012-01-16 14:28:58 <helo> boring legal drama tv show
859 2012-01-16 14:29:08 <edcba> so who wins ?
860 2012-01-16 14:33:03 james has joined
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862 2012-01-16 14:33:29 james is now known as Guest90132
863 2012-01-16 14:33:34 <helo> the stars of the show (the lawyers uncover the identity of satoshi)
864 2012-01-16 14:34:15 Guest90132 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
865 2012-01-16 14:39:24 <edcba> nothing about the legality of bitcoins ?
866 2012-01-16 14:39:44 torsthaldo has joined
867 2012-01-16 14:40:08 <edcba> (didn't know lawyers were detective...)
868 2012-01-16 14:41:25 <helo> it was deemed totally illegal
869 2012-01-16 14:42:50 sje has joined
870 2012-01-16 14:44:49 <edcba> pff
871 2012-01-16 14:45:04 <edcba> fucking media
872 2012-01-16 14:47:16 storrgie has quit (Quit: Leaving)
873 2012-01-16 14:47:28 <helo> but the last line of the show was essentially: "Get used to it, [bitcoin is] the future."
874 2012-01-16 14:48:26 <UukGoblin> they punished satoshi for illegally inventing it?
875 2012-01-16 14:48:26 epscy is now known as satoshi!~eps@s.epscylonb.com|epscy-aka-satosh
876 2012-01-16 14:48:41 <helo> the lawyers figured out who satoshi was, but not the government
877 2012-01-16 14:49:40 <UukGoblin> so now TV dramas set precedents to define law? :->
878 2012-01-16 14:54:05 gp5st has joined
879 2012-01-16 14:56:10 gp5st has left ()
880 2012-01-16 15:05:50 onelineproof has joined
881 2012-01-16 15:06:06 p0s has joined
882 2012-01-16 15:11:11 <jine> I just launched the new system for Bitlc.net (Bitcoins.lc) :) Here's some of the news: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=10121.msg694931#msg694931
883 2012-01-16 15:15:42 imsaguy has joined
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888 2012-01-16 15:38:19 pierre`_ is now known as pierre`
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890 2012-01-16 15:50:03 <CIA-100> bitcoin: p2k * r5909a620efbb ecoinpool/apps/ecoinpool/src/mysql_sharelogger.erl: Bugfix for MySQL Shares Logger http://tinyurl.com/7r53mzz
891 2012-01-16 15:50:45 hippich has quit (Changing host)
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893 2012-01-16 15:56:53 att_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
894 2012-01-16 15:59:53 <CIA-100> bitcoin: p2k * r814f16ea4e60 ecoinpool/apps/ecoinpool/src/mysql_sharelogger.erl: And Another Bugfix http://tinyurl.com/7o686f2
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906 2012-01-16 16:39:01 forrestoshi is now known as forrestv
907 2012-01-16 16:39:31 <sipa> ThomasV: the SEC specification contains an algorithm for doing so
908 2012-01-16 16:40:15 * luke-jr ponders switching to ecoinpool, since they have coinbaser support (an independent implementation, even) merged before bitcoind ;)
909 2012-01-16 16:41:16 btc_novice has joined
910 2012-01-16 16:41:56 <MC1984> luke-jr you know 5.2 doesnt help download time on windows yes
911 2012-01-16 16:42:17 <luke-jr> MC1984: I believe you said that, yes.
912 2012-01-16 16:42:30 <luke-jr> MC1984: one person is not a reason to write off all Windows, hopefully
913 2012-01-16 16:42:35 <luke-jr> maybe on another version it helps
914 2012-01-16 16:42:42 <sipa> MC1984: download time doesn't change, validation time improves if you have fast disks
915 2012-01-16 16:42:45 <MC1984> well i hope youre right
916 2012-01-16 16:42:56 TD has joined
917 2012-01-16 16:42:57 <sipa> if the limiting factor is either disk or network, you will not see an improvement
918 2012-01-16 16:43:03 <MC1984> i tried it with an ssd too so
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921 2012-01-16 16:43:15 <MC1984> i gave the log to gmaxwell, it took like 18 hours
922 2012-01-16 16:43:34 terrytibbs has joined
923 2012-01-16 16:44:46 <sipa> did you download from a local copy?
924 2012-01-16 16:45:03 <sipa> or just connected to the network, and hoped for a fast peer?
925 2012-01-16 16:46:04 slush1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
926 2012-01-16 16:46:07 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
927 2012-01-16 16:47:50 <CIA-100> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rcb22ab3 / pom.xml : Update to lwjgl 2.8.2, jackson 1.9.2, commons-codec 1.6 - http://git.io/9LIJiQ https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/commit/cb22ab3b5257dde8067e5a8d122db58540d4894e
928 2012-01-16 16:52:24 iocor has joined
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931 2012-01-16 16:59:06 <MC1984> sipa i just deleted my chain and fired it back up
932 2012-01-16 16:59:15 <MC1984> took 18 hours, hdd going crazy
933 2012-01-16 17:01:53 slush1 has joined
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935 2012-01-16 17:02:46 <Joric> i don't observe essential speedup either, win7
936 2012-01-16 17:04:27 <sipa> it's not certain the fix helps much at all on windows
937 2012-01-16 17:04:56 <sipa> it was related to mlock() and its behavior on linux, windows' VirtualLock() which is used instead there may be less of a performance problem
938 2012-01-16 17:12:16 BlueMatt has joined
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941 2012-01-16 17:15:00 iocor has joined
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943 2012-01-16 17:19:31 <MC1984> so windows will always be slow as shit?
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945 2012-01-16 17:26:08 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
946 2012-01-16 17:33:10 devrandom has joined
947 2012-01-16 17:33:22 <diki> MC1984:or
948 2012-01-16 17:33:30 <diki> you could've just downloaded an archive of the blockchain
949 2012-01-16 17:34:08 ThomasV_ has joined
950 2012-01-16 17:34:39 <MC1984> or perhaps you could shut up
951 2012-01-16 17:35:26 <BlueMatt> are you on 0.5.2?
952 2012-01-16 17:35:55 <luke-jr> sipa: AIUI, Windows is still as slow as Linux used to be?
953 2012-01-16 17:36:15 <BlueMatt> no
954 2012-01-16 17:36:28 <BlueMatt> both windows and linux were slowed down by the bug afaik
955 2012-01-16 17:37:33 Zarutian has joined
956 2012-01-16 17:38:06 <diki> MC1984:wait a minute, what is with the unfriendly attitude?
957 2012-01-16 17:38:29 <diki> A piece of advice, don't bite the hand that feeds you!
958 2012-01-16 17:40:52 * luke-jr bites diki's hand.
959 2012-01-16 17:41:05 <sipa> luke-jr: AIUI?
960 2012-01-16 17:41:52 <luke-jr> sipa: As I Understand It
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964 2012-01-16 17:42:18 <sipa> that's what i hear as well; but the bug never affected everyone in the same amount, so hard to be sure
965 2012-01-16 17:42:45 <MC1984> were talking about how fast it downloads not where i can get it
966 2012-01-16 17:44:32 <MC1984> for me that patch had no effect on 2 machines, win 7 and xp
967 2012-01-16 17:46:10 terrytibbs has joined
968 2012-01-16 17:46:19 <sipa> right, but if the machine that sends you the block chain is slow, it will not get any faster for you
969 2012-01-16 17:46:46 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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971 2012-01-16 17:47:36 <Latoshi> bitcoin doesnt need to download blocks in order
972 2012-01-16 17:48:14 <Latoshi> but it does anyhow
973 2012-01-16 17:48:44 <sipa> it does need to verify them in order
974 2012-01-16 17:49:20 <Latoshi> it can still do that
975 2012-01-16 17:49:30 <Latoshi> without having to download them in order
976 2012-01-16 17:49:39 <sipa> true
977 2012-01-16 17:49:47 <BlueMatt> it often currently doesnt download them in order
978 2012-01-16 17:49:58 <phantomcircuit> actually it does need to download them in order
979 2012-01-16 17:50:02 <BlueMatt> if you watch debug.log while downloading it gets quite a few orphan blocks
980 2012-01-16 17:50:13 <Latoshi> i am in charge here
981 2012-01-16 17:50:18 <Latoshi> not anymore you are not!
982 2012-01-16 17:50:45 <phantomcircuit> the only way the client knows which blocks to ask for is by requesting the 500 blocks after the current tallest block
983 2012-01-16 17:50:54 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i still dont get how that happens
984 2012-01-16 17:52:03 <Latoshi> has anyone looked at how namecoins are being bought up
985 2012-01-16 17:52:12 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: I never bothered to look
986 2012-01-16 17:52:18 nathan7 has joined
987 2012-01-16 17:52:25 <Latoshi> especially with sopa being stopped i would have thought it was going to go down
988 2012-01-16 17:52:26 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, seriously it makes no sense
989 2012-01-16 17:52:34 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, OH i know
990 2012-01-16 17:52:35 <phantomcircuit> lol
991 2012-01-16 17:52:48 nhodges has joined
992 2012-01-16 17:52:53 <phantomcircuit> blocks come in through normal propagation
993 2012-01-16 17:53:01 <BlueMatt> nope
994 2012-01-16 17:53:38 <BlueMatt> it will do it at most points in the chain
995 2012-01-16 17:54:08 <BlueMatt> afaik normal propagation is just for tip
996 2012-01-16 17:56:10 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
997 2012-01-16 17:56:25 <Latoshi> so when is bitcoin 0.5 coming out?
998 2012-01-16 17:56:31 <Latoshi> and what will be the new features?
999 2012-01-16 17:56:48 <sipa> you mean 0.6 ?
1000 2012-01-16 17:56:48 <helo> 0.6?
1001 2012-01-16 17:56:58 <Latoshi> oh yeah 0.6
1002 2012-01-16 17:57:28 <sipa> private key import/export
1003 2012-01-16 17:57:33 <sipa> compressed public keys
1004 2012-01-16 17:57:40 <sipa> new dns seeds
1005 2012-01-16 17:57:42 <Latoshi> pywallet.py does it, no?
1006 2012-01-16 17:57:51 hexTech has joined
1007 2012-01-16 17:58:01 <sipa> pywallet cannot handle encrypted wallets
1008 2012-01-16 17:58:11 <sipa> performance improvements
1009 2012-01-16 17:58:33 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, weird, i have bitcoin-alt downloading the blockchain without getting orphans (although i have a subtle bug int he block ordering code which i haven't figured out)
1010 2012-01-16 17:58:56 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: its very rare, but it happens
1011 2012-01-16 17:59:11 <BlueMatt> like might show up 2-3 times while downloading 20k blocks
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1013 2012-01-16 18:00:38 <sipa> Latoshi: and when: when it's ready (i hope within a few weeks)
1014 2012-01-16 18:00:49 <Latoshi> sweet
1015 2012-01-16 18:01:21 <BlueMatt> for the love of god, can I get someone to look at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/593 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/454 before 0.6 goes into freeze
1016 2012-01-16 18:02:38 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
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1018 2012-01-16 18:03:51 <Joric> what about deterministic keys and sending/receiving from/to a sertain address
1019 2012-01-16 18:04:08 <BlueMatt> det. wallets no
1020 2012-01-16 18:04:13 <BlueMatt> what is the second one?
1021 2012-01-16 18:04:14 <Joric> *certain omg
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1024 2012-01-16 18:04:37 <BlueMatt> oh you mean address control, no idea on that one
1025 2012-01-16 18:04:43 <TD> BlueMatt: i think it can happen when a new block is announced whilst the chain is downloading. the act of receiving a block for which the ancestors were not received yet triggers fetching of them
1026 2012-01-16 18:04:53 <Joric> there was i patch for 0.3.24 i still use it
1027 2012-01-16 18:05:02 <BlueMatt> TD: ah, that is probably it
1028 2012-01-16 18:05:24 <BlueMatt> Joric: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/415 that one?
1029 2012-01-16 18:05:45 <sipa> BlueMatt: 454 basically adds a thread the continually checks whether a connection to the addnode is still there?
1030 2012-01-16 18:05:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea
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1032 2012-01-16 18:06:07 <sipa> code looks good; i'll test it later tonoghty
1033 2012-01-16 18:06:09 <sipa> tonight
1034 2012-01-16 18:06:26 <BlueMatt> (and allows addnode'd nodes to connect even if your connections are maxed
1035 2012-01-16 18:06:28 <BlueMatt> )
1036 2012-01-16 18:06:40 abragin has joined
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1039 2012-01-16 18:06:43 <BlueMatt> night
1040 2012-01-16 18:06:51 <Joric> BlueMatt, yeah that one
1041 2012-01-16 18:06:51 <BlueMatt> s/night//
1042 2012-01-16 18:07:07 <BlueMatt> Joric: if coderrr gets stuff like p2sh figured out, possibly
1043 2012-01-16 18:07:18 <Joric> send from address(es) / view address linkages
1044 2012-01-16 18:07:32 PK has joined
1045 2012-01-16 18:08:11 <coderrr> Joric, there's a patched 0.5.1 now
1046 2012-01-16 18:08:27 <coderrr> and yea eventually i'll get around to making it work w the p2sh changes
1047 2012-01-16 18:08:49 <Joric> coderrr, how about importing/exporting private key from gui
1048 2012-01-16 18:09:03 <Joric> or deterministic keys
1049 2012-01-16 18:09:10 <coderrr> Joric, not my department :P
1050 2012-01-16 18:09:20 <BlueMatt> that falls wayyy outside of the scope of the original patch...
1051 2012-01-16 18:09:29 nhodges has joined
1052 2012-01-16 18:10:12 <Joric> meanwhile $6.66 seems good wife didn't help much
1053 2012-01-16 18:10:30 <Diatoshi> like I said before
1054 2012-01-16 18:10:31 <Diatoshi> repeatedly
1055 2012-01-16 18:10:32 * BlueMatt really doesnt find that surprising...
1056 2012-01-16 18:10:40 <Diatoshi> it takes 3 days for an ach to happen, and dwolla sits on it another 1-2 days
1057 2012-01-16 18:10:47 <Diatoshi> we wont know until NEXT monday
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1073 2012-01-16 18:37:49 <roconnor> Is there any incentive for miners to report accurate dates in their blocks (beyond not reporting times in the future, and not reporting times before the median of the last 11 blocks)?
1074 2012-01-16 18:38:03 <Graet> no
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1079 2012-01-16 18:49:30 <Diatoshi> EHEHEHEH
1080 2012-01-16 18:49:45 <Diatoshi> I just got amd app kernel analyzer to work
1081 2012-01-16 18:50:33 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, no but there is also very little reason to report inaccurate times (one of them being to reduce load by allowing miners in a pool to fuzz the timestamp before requesting more work)
1082 2012-01-16 18:52:37 <roconnor> phantomcircuit: I can't help but wonder if it would have been better if the block reward went up (slightly?) the longer the time difference reported from the previous block?
1083 2012-01-16 18:53:08 wasabi1 has joined
1084 2012-01-16 18:53:08 <BlueMatt> then everyone would just use the max time that would be accepted
1085 2012-01-16 18:53:13 <luke-jr> roconnor: I'll be sure to always report 2 hours ahead of realtime
1086 2012-01-16 18:53:14 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, on average the blocks happen at even spacing
1087 2012-01-16 18:53:18 <BlueMatt> and you get a similar problem
1088 2012-01-16 18:53:24 <phantomcircuit> that would only matter for people gambling
1089 2012-01-16 18:53:37 <roconnor> BlueMatt: the max time being accepted is approximately the current time.
1090 2012-01-16 18:53:45 terrytibbs has joined
1091 2012-01-16 18:53:53 <luke-jr> roconnor: no, it's 2 hours into the future from the current time
1092 2012-01-16 18:54:02 <roconnor> anyone burning future time risks having their block ignored by peers.
1093 2012-01-16 18:54:06 <Diatoshi> fuck
1094 2012-01-16 18:54:09 <luke-jr> there's also already incentive to report future times
1095 2012-01-16 18:54:11 <roconnor> luke-jr: approximately
1096 2012-01-16 18:54:11 <Diatoshi> it doesnt work even if I try to force it to work
1097 2012-01-16 18:54:16 <Diatoshi> says error compiling opencl kernel
1098 2012-01-16 18:54:37 <BlueMatt> roconnor: what advantage do we get if the block timestamps are accurate?
1099 2012-01-16 18:54:41 <BlueMatt> who cares?
1100 2012-01-16 18:54:41 <roconnor> luke-jr: oh good I'd like to hear it. Graet said there was none.
1101 2012-01-16 18:55:15 <luke-jr> roconnor: later block times = lower difficulty
1102 2012-01-16 18:55:16 <roconnor> BlueMatt: accurate times means that difficutly adjustment measurements are accurate.
1103 2012-01-16 18:55:25 <BlueMatt> meh, its close enough
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1106 2012-01-16 18:56:27 <roconnor> BlueMatt: close enough, unless people start reporting minimum time adjustments.
1107 2012-01-16 18:56:32 <BlueMatt> does it really matter if you get blocks on average every 9 minutes or 11 minutes?
1108 2012-01-16 18:56:36 <roconnor> luke-jr: why is lower difficulty desired?
1109 2012-01-16 18:56:43 * luke-jr facepalms
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1111 2012-01-16 18:56:54 <luke-jr> lower difficulty = easier blocks
1112 2012-01-16 18:56:57 <roconnor> BlueMatt: it matters if blocks start coming every hour or every 12 hours
1113 2012-01-16 18:57:26 <roconnor> luke-jr: your rate of return is based on your fraction of hashing power, not on the difficulty level.
1114 2012-01-16 18:57:45 <luke-jr> roconnor: because the difficulty level adjusts.
1115 2012-01-16 18:57:57 <luke-jr> the difficulty level is the primary influence on your rate of return
1116 2012-01-16 18:58:00 <luke-jr> direct
1117 2012-01-16 18:58:06 <BlueMatt> roconnor: slowing blocks down by a factor of 6 would be difficult as fuck without a ton of hash power
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1119 2012-01-16 18:58:24 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: in the short term, but not in the long
1120 2012-01-16 18:58:34 <BlueMatt> that only applies if you plan on going out of business tomorrow
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1125 2012-01-16 18:59:07 <roconnor> maybe pool operators want high difficulites; it brings them more customers.
1126 2012-01-16 18:59:42 <roconnor> BlueMatt: if the top 3 pool operators decided they wanted artifically high difficulties, it wouldn't be hard.
1127 2012-01-16 19:01:31 <phantomcircuit> they could only change the difficulty ever so slightly
1128 2012-01-16 19:01:34 <phantomcircuit> and only once
1129 2012-01-16 19:01:37 <roconnor> maybe people want low difficulty to get as many 50 bitcoin blocks as they can.
1130 2012-01-16 19:02:37 <BlueMatt> roconnor: it changes from 50 after x blocks not x time
1131 2012-01-16 19:03:29 <BlueMatt> roconnor: and if the top 3 poolops grouped together there are much, much more nefarious things they could do
1132 2012-01-16 19:03:32 <roconnor> BlueMatt: with low difficulty you will get more 50 btc blocks before your competetors bring their rigs online.
1133 2012-01-16 19:05:11 <BlueMatt> that matters little to a poolop who isnt mining themself
1134 2012-01-16 19:05:35 <BlueMatt> (as they get a % of the new hashpower anyway)
1135 2012-01-16 19:06:19 <roconnor> it seems like it would matter to a poolop
1136 2012-01-16 19:06:55 drazak has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1137 2012-01-16 19:07:52 <gmaxwell> 08:54 < MC1984> took 18 hours, hdd going crazy
1138 2012-01-16 19:08:02 <gmaxwell> MC1984: is this on the system with only 1G ram?
1139 2012-01-16 19:08:24 <gmaxwell> MC1984: if so, you're going to have to be patient. I think that system is always going to be somewhat slow
1140 2012-01-16 19:08:51 <MC1984> bitcoin ram use seems to be roughly constant?
1141 2012-01-16 19:09:31 drazak has joined
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1143 2012-01-16 19:10:30 <gmaxwell> MC1984: I'm not sure what you're asking there.
1144 2012-01-16 19:10:57 <MC1984> would would having only 1gb make it especially slow
1145 2012-01-16 19:11:05 <MC1984> it wasnt out of memory or anything
1146 2012-01-16 19:11:08 <gmaxwell> MC1984: It's not a question of bitcoin ram use, it's a question of not having enough ram to usefully disk-cache the blockchain data.
1147 2012-01-16 19:11:32 <MC1984> you mean ram cache?
1148 2012-01-16 19:11:39 helo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1149 2012-01-16 19:11:53 <gmaxwell> Rame cache of the disk. :) Whatever the hell you want to call it. ;)
1150 2012-01-16 19:12:06 <MC1984> oh
1151 2012-01-16 19:12:20 helo has joined
1152 2012-01-16 19:12:35 <MC1984> so to make initial download fast, it should have space for the whole chain in ram?
1153 2012-01-16 19:12:55 ovidiusoft has joined
1154 2012-01-16 19:12:56 <gmaxwell> Doesn't need to be the _whole_ think, but most of it, yes.
1155 2012-01-16 19:13:45 <MC1984> how do you explain it still only being about 100 blocks/second at the beginning then?
1156 2012-01-16 19:14:30 <gmaxwell> MC1984: because there are a lot of random writes in addition to the random reads, the cache can't speed those up.
1157 2012-01-16 19:14:41 <gmaxwell> But if the whole thing went at 100 blocks/s you wouldn't be complaining.
1158 2012-01-16 19:14:45 <gmaxwell> (much)
1159 2012-01-16 19:15:25 <MC1984> lol
1160 2012-01-16 19:15:32 <gmaxwell> MC1984: during validation the node takes the new blocks and looks up their input transactions in the already validated block chain. The input transactions are scattered randomly. The index to them is scattered randomly. If this all has to come of disk I believe you're looking at an average case of log2(transactions)+1 random seeks. On a 7200 rpm disk each might take about 10ms or so.
1161 2012-01-16 19:16:02 <gmaxwell> log2(transactions)+1 per transaction, that is.
1162 2012-01-16 19:16:39 <MC1984> well the drive was going crazy the whole time
1163 2012-01-16 19:18:46 <MC1984> maybe other windows users will report better with 5.2
1164 2012-01-16 19:18:49 <gmaxwell> The excessive write activity we can fix. The read activity, I don't think we can fixâ though maybe we can reduce hold the index in memory and skip the log2(transactions) part.
1165 2012-01-16 19:19:13 <gmaxwell> IIRC someone in #p2pool on windows already did.
1166 2012-01-16 19:19:19 <MC1984> have many people tried .2 yet
1167 2012-01-16 19:19:20 user__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1168 2012-01-16 19:19:39 <egecko_> ive setup 3 bitcoin nodes and had to pull the entire block chain to each of them and it did not take 18 hours or very long at all, like maybe an hour or so
1169 2012-01-16 19:19:47 <egecko_> that was within the last week
1170 2012-01-16 19:20:06 <gmaxwell> egecko_: was this on windows?
1171 2012-01-16 19:20:10 <egecko_> yea
1172 2012-01-16 19:20:14 <gmaxwell> Fantastic.
1173 2012-01-16 19:20:19 <egecko_> 2 win 7 boxes and 1 win server 2008
1174 2012-01-16 19:20:53 <MC1984> cool
1175 2012-01-16 19:21:02 <MC1984> hopefully its just me then
1176 2012-01-16 19:21:43 <egecko_> are you pulling the block chain to your default location? cause that could suck if you have a slow c drive
1177 2012-01-16 19:21:48 <gmaxwell> nah, it's not just youâ it's still terribly for anyone with low ram and slow disks
1178 2012-01-16 19:21:49 <MC1984> still its a shame, there are a lot of people with older hardware that will find bitcoin difficult to use
1179 2012-01-16 19:21:54 <MC1984> third world etc
1180 2012-01-16 19:22:08 <gmaxwell> MC1984: patches accepted.
1181 2012-01-16 19:22:30 <MC1984> i would if i could
1182 2012-01-16 19:24:02 <MC1984> i imagine bitcoin running on everyones phones in some african nations
1183 2012-01-16 19:24:11 <MC1984> they will need chainservers
1184 2012-01-16 19:24:24 <gmaxwell> yes, they always would, no matter how fast this was made.
1185 2012-01-16 19:24:29 <MC1984> phone payments are incredibly popular in parts of africa
1186 2012-01-16 19:24:40 <gmaxwell> They'd need to be thin clients or at least SPV nodes.
1187 2012-01-16 19:25:14 <MC1984> and some african nations have a joke of a national currency, hyperinflation etc
1188 2012-01-16 19:25:28 <MC1984> imagine if bitcoin could jsut come in and take over where the government has failed them
1189 2012-01-16 19:26:02 <MC1984> or maybe somalia could use it as an uncorruptable basis to start nationbuilding etc
1190 2012-01-16 19:26:22 <MC1984> just for example
1191 2012-01-16 19:26:40 <MC1984> a lot of them are down to bartering anyway, bitcoin would be a step up any way you cut it
1192 2012-01-16 19:27:11 TD has joined
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1194 2012-01-16 19:34:52 <BTC_Bear> MC1984: It is a good idea but with a caveat. They need Power and Internet to be widespread.
1195 2012-01-16 19:34:59 agricocb has joined
1196 2012-01-16 19:35:29 <MC1984> funny thing about that is even some of the poorest places in africa are swimming with mobile phones
1197 2012-01-16 19:35:36 <MC1984> and a working cellular network
1198 2012-01-16 19:35:41 <MC1984> its strange
1199 2012-01-16 19:36:00 <BlueMatt> (and blackberrys)
1200 2012-01-16 19:36:00 <MC1984> also the streets are paved with kalashnikovs
1201 2012-01-16 19:36:10 <BTC_Bear> Yea, and usually cheap too. Have to get them the lite version of the chain.
1202 2012-01-16 19:36:31 <MC1984> yeah
1203 2012-01-16 19:36:57 <MC1984> java ME thin client or something
1204 2012-01-16 19:37:04 <MC1984> run on anything
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1217 2012-01-16 20:07:12 <gmaxwell> Anyone else here interested in patches that refuse to relay 1VayNert transactions while they still remain non-sendmany?
1218 2012-01-16 20:07:33 <gmaxwell> I notice that I managed to mine a block with some the other day. I think [Tycho] should mine his own spam.
1219 2012-01-16 20:09:23 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1220 2012-01-16 20:10:47 <jgarzik> 1VayNert ?
1221 2012-01-16 20:11:30 <gmaxwell> https://blockexplorer.com/address/1VayNert3x1KzbpzMGt2qdqrAThiRovi8
1222 2012-01-16 20:12:18 <gmaxwell> [Tycho] does all(most of?) his pool payouts via a single address now, so that e.g. mtgox can process the payments instantly by recognizing the address.
1223 2012-01-16 20:12:55 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately he is still apparently not using sendmany, so it's one transaction per payment.
1224 2012-01-16 20:13:35 <BlueMatt> are you kidding me???
1225 2012-01-16 20:13:51 <BlueMatt> god, wtf is [Tycho] doing?
1226 2012-01-16 20:14:19 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hm? the fact that he's not using sendmany has come up a couple times in here.
1227 2012-01-16 20:14:32 <BlueMatt> yea, I know and he still hasnt switched
1228 2012-01-16 20:14:51 <gmaxwell> Yea, I figured he would have by now. 0_o
1229 2012-01-16 20:18:18 BurtyB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1231 2012-01-16 20:19:41 <Joric> gmaxwell, http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/oj2r4/strings_bitcoinblk0001dat_grep_sugliyt/ 'Message created by gmaxwell' really?
1232 2012-01-16 20:20:30 b4epoche_ has joined
1233 2012-01-16 20:20:36 <BlueMatt> as long as its coinbase, who the fuck cares
1234 2012-01-16 20:20:56 <gmaxwell> Joric: the @#$#@ there is a spamming webservice?
1235 2012-01-16 20:21:06 <gmaxwell> http://btcmsg.ifreeweb.net/
1236 2012-01-16 20:21:50 <Joric> gmaxwell, yes, just stumbled upon too
1237 2012-01-16 20:22:04 <luke-jr> -.-
1238 2012-01-16 20:22:10 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1239 2012-01-16 20:22:10 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
1240 2012-01-16 20:22:14 <luke-jr> downvote it
1241 2012-01-16 20:22:19 <Joric> and it's paid
1242 2012-01-16 20:22:35 user__ has joined
1243 2012-01-16 20:23:21 <luke-jr> Joric: any idea how to detect it?
1244 2012-01-16 20:23:30 <luke-jr> I want to make it prohibitively expensive if possible
1245 2012-01-16 20:24:14 <gmaxwell> yea, how are they encoding this? if it's in the payments they're burning a ton of coin.
1246 2012-01-16 20:24:18 AAA_awright_ has joined
1247 2012-01-16 20:24:42 <luke-jr> O.O!
1248 2012-01-16 20:24:50 <luke-jr> GPUmax!
1249 2012-01-16 20:24:53 <gmaxwell> https://blockexplorer.com/tx/cc2fa5a40cdbaad70826040fe7fe4bec34ddfaefd358ca1e2a7957f1d5941738#i2850846 < looks like they're burning a ton of coin.
1250 2012-01-16 20:24:53 <luke-jr> >_<
1251 2012-01-16 20:25:14 <BlueMatt> oh wow...
1252 2012-01-16 20:25:20 <josephcp> it looks like btcmsg is using address outputs instead of pubkey outputs to encode their messages too... zzz
1253 2012-01-16 20:25:37 <BlueMatt> couldnt they just pay luke-jr or someone to throw the msg in coinbase?
1254 2012-01-16 20:25:54 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: doesn't scale.
1255 2012-01-16 20:26:07 <gmaxwell> But it's stupid. If you just want a timestamping service you could use merged mining for that.
1256 2012-01-16 20:26:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so put the hash of a ton of msgs in the coinbase
1257 2012-01-16 20:26:12 <gmaxwell> Exactly.
1258 2012-01-16 20:26:23 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1259 2012-01-16 20:26:38 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately, no one competent cares. So the task is left to incompetent people, so this is what you get.
1260 2012-01-16 20:26:40 <luke-jr> I will merged mine their messagechain to keep Bitcoin clean, if anyone wants to be the diplomatâ¦
1261 2012-01-16 20:27:19 <gmaxwell> It doesn't even need to be a chain so much, it's just a single additional hash committment treated like a merged chain...
1262 2012-01-16 20:27:19 <Joric> i don't get it where is the message those hashes do not look like ascii
1263 2012-01-16 20:27:29 <Joric> is it encoded somehow
1264 2012-01-16 20:27:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: sure
1265 2012-01-16 20:28:17 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: have the entry in the aux-merkle-chain be itself a merkle-root of messages
1266 2012-01-16 20:28:20 Matt_von_Mises has joined
1267 2012-01-16 20:28:27 <Joric> it doesn't make any sense if it's not directly readable
1268 2012-01-16 20:28:35 <gmaxwell> Joric: They're just packing it into the addresses, and you need to use their decoder ring.
1269 2012-01-16 20:28:40 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1270 2012-01-16 20:28:45 <gmaxwell> http://btcmsg.ifreeweb.net/#Browse
1271 2012-01-16 20:29:00 <BlueMatt> oh wow thats stupid as fuck
1272 2012-01-16 20:29:19 <Latoshi> it emails the author
1273 2012-01-16 20:29:32 <luke-jr> it would be perfect if it was merged-mined
1274 2012-01-16 20:29:47 <luke-jr> then you have a timestamped message
1275 2012-01-16 20:29:51 <luke-jr> that's also private
1276 2012-01-16 20:30:03 <luke-jr> you distribute the message and relevant merkle trees
1277 2012-01-16 20:30:24 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: exactly. And then the miner just returns posts headers/trees as he mines them.
1278 2012-01-16 20:30:49 RazielZ has joined
1279 2012-01-16 20:31:19 <josephcp> that sounds like 10x more work than what this guy did though, never going to happen
1280 2012-01-16 20:31:32 <gmaxwell> What this person is doing is super inefficient.
1281 2012-01-16 20:31:36 <gmaxwell> But it's also hard to block.
1282 2012-01-16 20:31:54 <gmaxwell> On the plus side, it burns a @#$@ done of coins.
1283 2012-01-16 20:32:03 <josephcp> yeah he should be using pubkeys (but i'm sure as hell not going to help this guy save money)
1284 2012-01-16 20:32:24 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you could drop transactions that have outputs with this sequence number form...
1285 2012-01-16 20:32:32 <gmaxwell> But he could change it pretty easily.
1286 2012-01-16 20:32:35 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1287 2012-01-16 20:32:58 <gmaxwell> This also bloats the set of open transactions. fucker.
1288 2012-01-16 20:33:03 <BlueMatt> why does he burn that many coins, he could send 1 satoshi to each addr...
1289 2012-01-16 20:33:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I'm assuming to make it harder to block.
1290 2012-01-16 20:33:31 <BlueMatt> yea, but he wastes orders of magnitude more than he has to
1291 2012-01-16 20:33:33 <gmaxwell> but I don't know, â because it's trivial to block due to the counter.
1292 2012-01-16 20:33:39 <BlueMatt> (even to make it somewhat hard to block)
1293 2012-01-16 20:33:57 <gmaxwell> (and the 1BTCmsg address)
1294 2012-01-16 20:34:36 <josephcp> but logically the guy should send 1 satoshi UNTIL it's blocked, no?
1295 2012-01-16 20:34:48 <BlueMatt> probably
1296 2012-01-16 20:34:52 <gmaxwell> I suspect he's packing data in the value too.
1297 2012-01-16 20:35:06 <BlueMatt> again, what a dumbass
1298 2012-01-16 20:35:32 <josephcp> that's like what, maximum a byte of data if you're willing to be spendy?
1299 2012-01-16 20:35:41 <gmaxwell> Yep
1300 2012-01-16 20:35:43 <gmaxwell> he is.
1301 2012-01-16 20:35:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: does the fee change as you type a message?
1302 2012-01-16 20:36:05 <gmaxwell> If you go to http://btcmsg.ifreeweb.net/#Browse
1303 2012-01-16 20:36:17 <BlueMatt> oh, it does
1304 2012-01-16 20:36:19 <gmaxwell> and paste in the content of https://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/cc2fa5a40cdbaad70826040fe7fe4bec34ddfaefd358ca1e2a7957f1d5941738
1305 2012-01-16 20:36:31 <gmaxwell> you can see how the message changes as you twiddle the data.
1306 2012-01-16 20:36:49 <gmaxwell> in fact, I wonder if these coins are really burnt.
1307 2012-01-16 20:37:08 <gmaxwell> They're not!
1308 2012-01-16 20:37:13 <gmaxwell> it's encoded entirely in the values!
1309 2012-01-16 20:37:14 <josephcp> oh yeah changing the hash doesn't
1310 2012-01-16 20:37:15 <josephcp> lol
1311 2012-01-16 20:37:20 <gmaxwell> the fuck!
1312 2012-01-16 20:37:21 <gmaxwell> die!
1313 2012-01-16 20:37:22 <Joric> mother of god does he store message in moneys?
1314 2012-01-16 20:37:27 <BlueMatt> mother fucker
1315 2012-01-16 20:37:39 <josephcp> well, i guess he's saving money and increasing the blockchain by a ridiculous amount
1316 2012-01-16 20:37:52 <jgarzik> is this a miner? or just someone spitting out TX's?
1317 2012-01-16 20:38:01 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1318 2012-01-16 20:38:06 <BlueMatt> probably txes
1319 2012-01-16 20:38:17 <gmaxwell> someone metioned GPUMax above, but I assume they're just spitting out txn
1320 2012-01-16 20:38:31 <Joric> this is... beautiful
1321 2012-01-16 20:38:43 <josephcp> why is this guy sending it out to different addresses? obfuscation?
1322 2012-01-16 20:38:46 <Latoshi> looking at protocol.py it looks like he is using md5s and he is "unhexifying" the hashes
1323 2012-01-16 20:38:47 <gmaxwell> though GPUMax means that distributing a patch to block this shit may be ineffective.
1324 2012-01-16 20:39:08 <gmaxwell> josephcp: each value encodes a couple bytes, then he can respend the coin later.
1325 2012-01-16 20:39:27 <Latoshi> probably just generates md5s until he gets a collision with the characters in the message
1326 2012-01-16 20:39:31 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it means he'll have to pay at least
1327 2012-01-16 20:39:42 <josephcp> oh i see
1328 2012-01-16 20:39:50 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yea, but only a base transaction fee per message.
1329 2012-01-16 20:39:54 <BlueMatt> btc_msg@yahoo.com
1330 2012-01-16 20:40:00 <gmaxwell> I was happier when I thought these coins were burned.
1331 2012-01-16 20:40:01 <BlueMatt> might try emailing the dick
1332 2012-01-16 20:40:04 <josephcp> so, hypothetically these spends would be able to be pruned from the index in the future no?
1333 2012-01-16 20:40:16 <josephcp> it's still a total dick move though ..
1334 2012-01-16 20:40:17 <luke-jr> josephcp: pruning is a joke really
1335 2012-01-16 20:40:39 <Joric> http://pastebin.com/MiG5GbW6 this one works as well
1336 2012-01-16 20:40:46 <gmaxwell> josephcp: yes, at least if he actually spends the coins on them. I'm only assuming that he has the keys because the scheme doesn't preclude him from having them.
1337 2012-01-16 20:41:04 <Joric> poor motherfucker
1338 2012-01-16 20:41:08 <gmaxwell> yea, it's 100% in the values.
1339 2012-01-16 20:41:11 <josephcp> yeah assuming he re-spends them
1340 2012-01-16 20:41:20 <jgarzik> would be useful if someone was willing to write up a tech description of this spam, and sent it to bitcoin-devel
1341 2012-01-16 20:41:38 <gmaxwell> https://blockexplorer.com/address/1o1omY2VbryG9snPMNrUzm2iyCjQAQc6B < also he's reusing the same counter addresses, also suggestive that he actually has the keys.
1342 2012-01-16 20:42:40 <Joric> it should't be that popular to care about
1343 2012-01-16 20:42:47 <josephcp> probably doing straight sendtomany RPC
1344 2012-01-16 20:42:54 <gmaxwell> yup.
1345 2012-01-16 20:43:02 <luke-jr> so let's block the keys ;)
1346 2012-01-16 20:43:08 <gmaxwell> josephcp: thus the counter addresses, couldn't get the order right any other way.
1347 2012-01-16 20:43:09 <pusle> hehe
1348 2012-01-16 20:43:14 <pusle> this was bound to happen
1349 2012-01-16 20:43:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yea, seems easy enough to make a simple list of the involved addresses and refuse to mine/relay them.
1350 2012-01-16 20:43:38 <gmaxwell> but also simple enough for him to change.
1351 2012-01-16 20:43:50 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: so this should go hand in hand with a MM solution.
1352 2012-01-16 20:44:00 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what if I refuse to mine non-BTC non-TBC transactions? ;)
1353 2012-01-16 20:44:02 <Latoshi> if you don't like what he is doing why dont you delete his bitcointalk thread
1354 2012-01-16 20:44:03 <josephcp> looking at the keys though, it looks like this service is really infrequently used
1355 2012-01-16 20:44:13 <Matt_von_Mises> Hello. I've been thinking about online bitcoin wallets and verified bitcoin payments. I'm interested in knowing what bitcoin users think so I've created a survey. I thought you guys might know a few things. Does anyone want to take a look and tell me what they think before I post it around the internet? http://kwiksurveys.com?u=BitcoinSurvey2
1356 2012-01-16 20:44:34 <gmaxwell> What would be really helpful is for the explorer services to block these addresses.
1357 2012-01-16 20:44:49 <gmaxwell> Then he couldn't tell his customers to go there to get the transactions.
1358 2012-01-16 20:44:51 <luke-jr> Blockchain.info has a wallet service?
1359 2012-01-16 20:44:53 * BlueMatt nominates luke-jr to writes a merged-mining alternative, charge less and advertise to put this douche out of business
1360 2012-01-16 20:45:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not worth my time -.-
1361 2012-01-16 20:45:16 <Matt_von_Mises> luke-jr Yes it does.
1362 2012-01-16 20:45:18 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: MtGox is a wallet
1363 2012-01-16 20:45:36 <pusle> You are looking at this the wrong way. He pays the cost of the tx's, fair and square
1364 2012-01-16 20:45:39 <Matt_von_Mises> MtGox, do people use it to make transactions generally?
1365 2012-01-16 20:45:45 <Matt_von_Mises> For payments?
1366 2012-01-16 20:45:49 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: quite a few people do.
1367 2012-01-16 20:45:52 <josephcp> some do
1368 2012-01-16 20:45:54 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: some
1369 2012-01-16 20:45:56 <Matt_von_Mises> OK thanks, I'll add it in.
1370 2012-01-16 20:46:01 <gmaxwell> (thus the green address stuff, for example)
1371 2012-01-16 20:46:03 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: a number of Eligius miners use to for their earnings directly
1372 2012-01-16 20:46:09 <luke-jr> ugh
1373 2012-01-16 20:46:16 <luke-jr> we need to kill green address spam too
1374 2012-01-16 20:46:20 <BlueMatt> agreed
1375 2012-01-16 20:46:24 <josephcp> Matt_von_Mises: the problem with focus group surveys like this is people often dont know what they want
1376 2012-01-16 20:46:24 <pusle> so either increase the fees or make it more efficient. Censoring/attack doesn't solve anything
1377 2012-01-16 20:46:50 <pusle> wack'a'mole anyone?
1378 2012-01-16 20:46:54 <Matt_von_Mises> josephcp: A problem with any survey
1379 2012-01-16 20:47:02 <Matt_von_Mises> But it's nice to get some opinions.
1380 2012-01-16 20:47:06 <gmaxwell> pusle: we're part of the system too.
1381 2012-01-16 20:47:06 <BlueMatt> pusle: so you support spam that you now have to store on your harddrive along with many thousands of other people's drives?
1382 2012-01-16 20:47:13 <Matt_von_Mises> Some information is better than none.
1383 2012-01-16 20:47:37 <pusle> BlueMatt: ofcourse not, but driving to his house and shoot him will not solve the fundamental problem
1384 2012-01-16 20:47:42 <josephcp> Matt_von_Mises: well it's especially evident with something like a bitcoin wallet, because it's so new, it's a lot easier to innovate and trial balloon it
1385 2012-01-16 20:47:43 <gmaxwell> pusle: Few people are selfish enough to waste their time adding spam like this. Where we can detect it we add unequal fees to make it unattractive.
1386 2012-01-16 20:47:47 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: why the heck would anyone pay a fee as a customer, for the merchant to get a verified confirmation?
1387 2012-01-16 20:47:48 <BlueMatt> pusle: and that your cpu spends time verifying and your internet connection transfering?
1388 2012-01-16 20:47:52 <gmaxwell> pusle: yes, in fact it would.
1389 2012-01-16 20:48:00 <gmaxwell> (not that I'd advocate that... overkill)
1390 2012-01-16 20:48:01 <BlueMatt> pusle: actually, I would be in support of such action
1391 2012-01-16 20:48:03 <pusle> then another guy comes along
1392 2012-01-16 20:48:05 <pusle> and another
1393 2012-01-16 20:48:08 <pusle> see?
1394 2012-01-16 20:48:15 <gmaxwell> pusle: yea, one per year... we can handle that.
1395 2012-01-16 20:48:16 <BlueMatt> not if we start killing those who do it
1396 2012-01-16 20:48:19 <pusle> so call it a weak point of bitcoin, and fix that one
1397 2012-01-16 20:48:33 <BlueMatt> that would provide sufficient incentive to not follow in his footsteps ;)
1398 2012-01-16 20:48:39 <pusle> hehe :P
1399 2012-01-16 20:48:54 <gmaxwell> pusle: do you often walk into the lobbies of public buildings, urinate all over the walls, and then call it a "weakness in the system"?
1400 2012-01-16 20:48:55 <pusle> we all hope bitcoin will take off right?
1401 2012-01-16 20:49:07 genjix has joined
1402 2012-01-16 20:49:09 <pusle> so this spam is like nothing, if 500million people start using bitcoin
1403 2012-01-16 20:49:20 <pusle> perhaps it forces us to be ready earlier? perhaps a good thing?
1404 2012-01-16 20:49:21 <pusle> :)
1405 2012-01-16 20:49:27 <gmaxwell> pusle: sure, the think that is concerning is if 500 million start using this spamming service.
1406 2012-01-16 20:49:28 <MC1984> i dont know whats going on but it sounds scary :<
1407 2012-01-16 20:49:40 <Matt_von_Mises> pusle: Bitcoin needs to be consumer friendly and it needs to facilitate secure and trusted transactions.
1408 2012-01-16 20:50:03 <pusle> I see your points and I agree with them. But the solution is not to have nannies running around "killing" bad guys
1409 2012-01-16 20:50:13 <Joric> it's really well 'hidden' :) why the hell care
1410 2012-01-16 20:50:13 <gmaxwell> pusle: sure, it's part of the solution.
1411 2012-01-16 20:50:16 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
1412 2012-01-16 20:50:17 <pusle> bitcoin must grow up and be strong on it's own
1413 2012-01-16 20:50:27 <gmaxwell> pusle: people are part of bitcoin too.
1414 2012-01-16 20:50:36 <pusle> I doubt this is even a problem now, as you say not many use this spam service
1415 2012-01-16 20:50:44 tower has joined
1416 2012-01-16 20:50:53 <BlueMatt> pusle: and to grow bitcoin and make it so that it is strong on its own, we work to fight crap like this
1417 2012-01-16 20:50:57 <josephcp> well imo it's a moot point because no one's using this service, the service is kindof ugly/hard-to-use so it's serving as a disincentive to make a competitor with a better user experience...
1418 2012-01-16 20:50:58 <gmaxwell> It's not a problem yet, but it could be a problem 12 hours from now if it ended up on the front page of reddit, for example.
1419 2012-01-16 20:50:58 <Matt_von_Mises> Would people suggest that I publicise my survey? I cannot find anything else I need for it.
1420 2012-01-16 20:50:58 <pusle> data is data, spam or not
1421 2012-01-16 20:51:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell has pointed out before, and quite rightly, people often forget they are a part of the system
1422 2012-01-16 20:51:23 <josephcp> so i'm against publicising/taking it down for that reason :-P
1423 2012-01-16 20:51:39 <gmaxwell> pusle: Bitcoin is a finance system. This is purely paracitic traffic. Bitcoin will not surrive if we can't resist most of the paracitic traffic.
1424 2012-01-16 20:52:08 <gmaxwell> Right now most parasitic traffic doesn't happen because there is nothing to pay for it. This service creates a way to pay for it.
1425 2012-01-16 20:52:11 <pusle> then it must be able to "resist" by improving it. Not having bitcoin police running around with "guns"
1426 2012-01-16 20:52:17 <BlueMatt> pusle: and when someone puts child porn or some other highly-offensive and illegal content in the chain and the fbi freaks the fuck out?
1427 2012-01-16 20:52:28 <genjix> surely this is a service which embeds messages in the coinbase input
1428 2012-01-16 20:52:29 <josephcp> there is no functional way to resist this without charging a lot per transaction
1429 2012-01-16 20:52:36 <BlueMatt> genjix: it isnt
1430 2012-01-16 20:52:43 <Latoshi> BlueMatt, whoa
1431 2012-01-16 20:52:48 <Latoshi> you just blew my mind
1432 2012-01-16 20:52:51 <BlueMatt> genjix: it encodes it purely in the send values
1433 2012-01-16 20:52:55 <gmaxwell> pusle: Don't be an aspie. We have lots of tools in our belts, and we can use all of them. Sometimes that means fixing a general case, sometimes it just means talking someone out of doing something stupid.
1434 2012-01-16 20:52:56 <Matt_von_Mises> So someone on here would only use a verified payment system if it was free?
1435 2012-01-16 20:52:59 <genjix> oh interesting
1436 2012-01-16 20:53:19 <Latoshi> imagine this
1437 2012-01-16 20:53:25 <genjix> yep nothing can be done about that
1438 2012-01-16 20:53:27 <Matt_von_Mises> You wont get much if you expect everything to be free in the world.
1439 2012-01-16 20:53:28 <gmaxwell> josephcp: Correct.
1440 2012-01-16 20:53:29 <Latoshi> what would happen?
1441 2012-01-16 20:53:34 <Latoshi> i mean
1442 2012-01-16 20:53:41 <pusle> higher fees is the easiest way but there must be others
1443 2012-01-16 20:53:42 Joric_ has joined
1444 2012-01-16 20:53:42 <Latoshi> what could be done if it happened?
1445 2012-01-16 20:53:44 <gmaxwell> Nothing technical can be doneâ but we can do a lot of things adhoc.
1446 2012-01-16 20:54:06 <Latoshi> --> <BlueMatt> pusle: and when someone puts child porn or some other highly-offensive and illegal content in the chain and the fbi freaks the fuck out?
1447 2012-01-16 20:54:09 <genjix> the only thing that can be done about this kind of thing is discouraging blocks with non-standard txs
1448 2012-01-16 20:54:16 <gmaxwell> genjix: the txn are standard.
1449 2012-01-16 20:54:30 paraipan has joined
1450 2012-01-16 20:54:30 <pusle> data is data, that's a whole other argument
1451 2012-01-16 20:54:33 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1452 2012-01-16 20:54:37 <BlueMatt> (and thus even more spammy_
1453 2012-01-16 20:54:38 <gmaxwell> genjix: they're just a really stupid sendmany, the client isn't even modified at all.
1454 2012-01-16 20:55:08 <Latoshi> imagine all bitcoin nodes updating with illegal content
1455 2012-01-16 20:55:12 <jgarzik> Prediction: eventually, someone will stuff something into the block chain that triggers a court order. At that point, people must decide whether or not to honor a government-mandated TX blacklist.
1456 2012-01-16 20:55:16 Joric_ is now known as Joric
1457 2012-01-16 20:55:28 <BlueMatt> I could see that
1458 2012-01-16 20:55:35 <pusle> "illegal" data, that's the fundamental flaw in this whole reasoning
1459 2012-01-16 20:55:48 <josephcp> honestly, gov agencies probably would be ok with crap like "hiding" the relevant transactions or whatever even though it's in the code, they just want to look like they're doing something
1460 2012-01-16 20:56:01 <josephcp> and if you make it look like there's some kind of action...
1461 2012-01-16 20:56:04 <BlueMatt> pusle: whether you think data should/shouldnt be illegal illegal data exists and a court can order whatever the fuck they want
1462 2012-01-16 20:56:04 <jgarzik> pusle: the government is chock full of fundamental flaws in its legislative reasoning
1463 2012-01-16 20:56:04 <gmaxwell> josephcp: yea, they'd just ask blockexplorer to hide it.
1464 2012-01-16 20:56:05 <pusle> is picture of a crime in itself a crime? well then millions who watch somebody getting murdered watching the news are also guilty
1465 2012-01-16 20:56:30 <pusle> I don't care about arbitrary laws
1466 2012-01-16 20:56:37 * jgarzik rolls his eyes
1467 2012-01-16 20:56:40 <pusle> but as I said, that's a whole different discussion
1468 2012-01-16 20:56:41 <BlueMatt> and that is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning
1469 2012-01-16 20:56:46 <josephcp> like government agencies just want people to shut up, and if it's possible for them to look like they're taking action they'll take a compromise like that in most cases...
1470 2012-01-16 20:56:49 <genjix> gmaxwell: so it's using a few bytes from the pubkey hash to encode a message or what?
1471 2012-01-16 20:57:02 <gmaxwell> genjix: No. It's using the output values. Very inefficient.
1472 2012-01-16 20:57:03 <BlueMatt> you may not care, but the people who can/will arrest you and put you in jail for life do...
1473 2012-01-16 20:57:04 <pusle> it's all bits and bytes to me
1474 2012-01-16 20:57:10 <genjix> this is great news
1475 2012-01-16 20:57:22 <gmaxwell> genjix: https://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/cc2fa5a40cdbaad70826040fe7fe4bec34ddfaefd358ca1e2a7957f1d5941738 < example txn
1476 2012-01-16 20:57:25 <jrmithdobbs> that bitcoin message thing is awfully hilarious
1477 2012-01-16 20:57:33 vragnaroda has joined
1478 2012-01-16 20:57:36 <genjix> yeah tons of fees for miners
1479 2012-01-16 20:57:42 <gmaxwell> genjix: this is their decoder ring: http://btcmsg.ifreeweb.net/#Browse
1480 2012-01-16 20:57:42 <genjix> lmao thats awesome
1481 2012-01-16 20:57:48 <genjix> thank you
1482 2012-01-16 20:57:52 <gmaxwell> genjix: nah, 0.0005 btc, whoptie do.
1483 2012-01-16 20:58:07 <genjix> yeah but multiply it by a few million
1484 2012-01-16 20:58:27 Kardos has joined
1485 2012-01-16 20:58:36 <genjix> you know how much slush told me he gets for running a mining pool a month?
1486 2012-01-16 20:58:38 <gmaxwell> genjix: with a few million we'd remove running a full node from the ability of casual computer users. Good job.
1487 2012-01-16 20:58:38 <jrmithdobbs> so who's gonna put the ps3 and decss keys in there already
1488 2012-01-16 20:58:39 <pusle> well, back to the spam issue. Improve pruning maybe? if it's currently a joke. Improve efficiency etc
1489 2012-01-16 20:58:40 <genjix> a measly $400
1490 2012-01-16 20:58:40 <jrmithdobbs> snap snap
1491 2012-01-16 20:59:08 <jrmithdobbs> pusle: pruning only helps if they get respent
1492 2012-01-16 20:59:11 <josephcp> yeah and he probably pays more in time/effort
1493 2012-01-16 20:59:14 <genjix> gmaxwell: i doubt it would get to that so suddenly... and so what just increase fees
1494 2012-01-16 20:59:29 <pusle> lots of smart people here, perhaps somebody got ideas :)
1495 2012-01-16 21:00:00 <josephcp> pusle: not worth the effort until it becomes a problem imo, not many people are using this
1496 2012-01-16 21:00:13 <genjix> pusle: bitcoin is extremely unoptimised atm in terms of database structure
1497 2012-01-16 21:00:23 <pusle> true, but plan ahead is always prudent
1498 2012-01-16 21:00:32 <genjix> there are a dozen difficult things that can be done to improve performance in the database
1499 2012-01-16 21:00:40 <gmaxwell> genjix: and make bitcoin less usable for normal transactions, lame.
1500 2012-01-16 21:00:46 <pusle> genjix: sounds good :)
1501 2012-01-16 21:00:53 <gmaxwell> (wrt 'increase fees')
1502 2012-01-16 21:01:14 <pusle> we only really have to "keep pace" with technology development. price pr GByte, network speed etc
1503 2012-01-16 21:01:39 <gmaxwell> pusle: you're not really contributing to the discussion here.
1504 2012-01-16 21:01:59 <pusle> okay, I'll shut up
1505 2012-01-16 21:02:29 <jrmithdobbs> I don't understand why he's doing it in a way that causes fees at all though
1506 2012-01-16 21:02:35 <Latoshi> gmaxwell, isn't stuffing illegal content into the blockchain a huge liability for the success of bitcoin?
1507 2012-01-16 21:02:39 <jrmithdobbs> pretty horrible mechanism
1508 2012-01-16 21:02:44 <gmaxwell> The site is also guilty of false advertising. Because they have those keys the txn can be pruned, they aren't stored forever.
1509 2012-01-16 21:02:47 Visalleras has joined
1510 2012-01-16 21:02:57 <BlueMatt> ok, fuck it, anyone who has any kind of reputation who acks https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/593 or https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/454 gets 1 BTC
1511 2012-01-16 21:03:10 <genjix> jrmithdobbs: yeah you could just use <foo> OP_DROP and broadcast a few dozen txs to luke-jr :p
1512 2012-01-16 21:03:15 <gmaxwell> Latoshi: No, I'd argue to a court that the data in the blockchain is just noiseâ the instructions/tools for recoverting the illegal data are what is unlawful.
1513 2012-01-16 21:03:29 <gmaxwell> Latoshi: bitcoin by itself doesn't provide any way to get 'data' out of the blockchain.
1514 2012-01-16 21:03:38 <jrmithdobbs> genjix: ya it doesn't make any sense
1515 2012-01-16 21:03:39 <josephcp> oh yeah i forgot luke-jr is processing nonstandard txs
1516 2012-01-16 21:03:43 <genjix> also sites arent responsible for user generated content
1517 2012-01-16 21:03:44 <josephcp> that makes it super easy
1518 2012-01-16 21:03:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: a good lawyer would kill that argument pretty quick
1519 2012-01-16 21:04:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: nah, it's not a bad argument.
1520 2012-01-16 21:04:03 <genjix> BlueMatt: and a good judge would rule in favour
1521 2012-01-16 21:04:16 <BlueMatt> genjix: good luck finding a good technical judge anywhere...
1522 2012-01-16 21:04:22 <genjix> the anglican style legal systems are built on common sense
1523 2012-01-16 21:04:31 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I can give you code that coverts "BlueMatt> gmaxwell: a good lawyer would kill that argument pretty quick" into illegial content, is your message illegal?
1524 2012-01-16 21:04:34 <josephcp> judges can understand technical arguments
1525 2012-01-16 21:04:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, but if ie it were in an OP_DROP then the data is on your disk in raw form (surrounded by other bitcoin-related crap)
1526 2012-01-16 21:04:45 <genjix> if you tell a judge that we dont control the data and it is irreversible then he would likely rule in favour
1527 2012-01-16 21:04:48 <gmaxwell> Common sense says that bitcoin is just a finiance system, it's the tool that provides access to illegal content.
1528 2012-01-16 21:04:50 <genjix> there are legal precedents too
1529 2012-01-16 21:05:09 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i'll ack 454, i tested similar to gavin except with a client on my laptop and my public bitcoind node
1530 2012-01-16 21:05:13 <genjix> it gets more iffy with moderated news submission sites
1531 2012-01-16 21:05:18 <josephcp> and then show you put "every possible effort to remove the content" i.e. censor the data from a block dump (even though it's still there) i imagine any reasonable judge would be ok with it
1532 2012-01-16 21:05:33 <gmaxwell> josephcp: right. thats how it works generally.
1533 2012-01-16 21:05:38 <josephcp> from places like blockexplorer or whatever i mean
1534 2012-01-16 21:05:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and I would think a non-technical judge would find that if the data is in raw form on your disk (whether by itself or surrounded by other stuff) the judge would rule against bitcoin
1535 2012-01-16 21:05:58 <genjix> BlueMatt: did you not watch the good wife?
1536 2012-01-16 21:06:00 <gmaxwell> blockexplorer already censors its output for technical reasons.
1537 2012-01-16 21:06:04 <BlueMatt> genjix: nope
1538 2012-01-16 21:06:06 <genjix> judges rule on common sense :)
1539 2012-01-16 21:06:17 <genjix> not technicalities
1540 2012-01-16 21:06:17 <BlueMatt> genjix: tv show judges and many judges
1541 2012-01-16 21:06:19 <BlueMatt> not all
1542 2012-01-16 21:06:26 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: nah, you'd appeal if that happened. There is basically no risk of such a ruling standing.
1543 2012-01-16 21:06:30 <jrmithdobbs> genjix: ya could fall back on common carrier
1544 2012-01-16 21:06:30 <genjix> well there are 2 types of legal systems
1545 2012-01-16 21:06:35 <josephcp> judges are a lot more reasonable than you think (unless they have an agenda, and then you're screwed no matter what you did so the blockchain issue is moot)
1546 2012-01-16 21:06:51 <genjix> anglican and catholic country type
1547 2012-01-16 21:07:03 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I would think not, but lets agree not to test it anyway and move on ;)
1548 2012-01-16 21:07:08 <josephcp> haha
1549 2012-01-16 21:07:15 <genjix> anglican style legal systems have very generic legislation
1550 2012-01-16 21:07:15 <BlueMatt> (afaik no one here is a lawyer anyway...)
1551 2012-01-16 21:07:17 <MC1984> kind of lolling here at how discussion went from technical to armchair lawyers
1552 2012-01-16 21:07:43 <genjix> MC1984: well tbh i've dealt a lot with law during thwe last year so im probably most qualified to comment here
1553 2012-01-16 21:07:45 * BlueMatt leaves to do some reading
1554 2012-01-16 21:07:47 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1555 2012-01-16 21:07:55 <genjix> what with running an exchange and all :p
1556 2012-01-16 21:07:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: My SO is, and I'm pretty familar with this general domain of law.
1557 2012-01-16 21:08:13 <BlueMatt> meh, fair enough maybe you are right, but anyway I dont want to test it
1558 2012-01-16 21:08:22 <gmaxwell> well sure, you never want to end up in court.
1559 2012-01-16 21:08:29 <josephcp> yeah if it did come up in court it'd suck from a PR perspective alone..
1560 2012-01-16 21:08:32 <jrmithdobbs> aye, if the scenario you were describing were common usenet/etc would have been dead out the gate
1561 2012-01-16 21:09:00 <MC1984> so someone is gonna steganograph CP into the blockchain, and we all get v&
1562 2012-01-16 21:09:13 <genjix> the law is that you take reasonable measure to remove the content
1563 2012-01-16 21:09:16 <genjix> but look at tor
1564 2012-01-16 21:09:20 tower has joined
1565 2012-01-16 21:09:30 <josephcp> or a better example is freenet
1566 2012-01-16 21:10:06 <jrmithdobbs> usenet is the perfect example
1567 2012-01-16 21:10:07 PK has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1568 2012-01-16 21:10:20 <josephcp> yeah
1569 2012-01-16 21:12:38 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1570 2012-01-16 21:12:44 <Joric> genjix, i've posted a cleaned 'message' already it's all in the values http://pastebin.com/MiG5GbW6
1571 2012-01-16 21:16:31 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1572 2012-01-16 21:18:07 <Joric> really unefficient, needs additional parsing and/or you have to know the tx hash
1573 2012-01-16 21:18:11 traviscj has joined
1574 2012-01-16 21:19:17 <genjix> yep
1575 2012-01-16 21:19:39 <helo> it is inevitable that people will use the blockchain to store data... miners will just have to adjust via fees etc
1576 2012-01-16 21:20:06 <gmaxwell> helo: no, not really.
1577 2012-01-16 21:20:21 <gmaxwell> Depends on what you mean by 'store data'.. a few bits here and there, who cares.
1578 2012-01-16 21:20:47 <gmaxwell> helo: miners, however, are not who pays for this. All users of the bitcoin system do.
1579 2012-01-16 21:21:21 <BTC_Bear> I think he means a .bcf (blockchain file) client, for almost anything.
1580 2012-01-16 21:21:34 <gmaxwell> Even if you don't run a full node, you suffer from the loss of trustworthyness of the system what will come from fewer people being able to run them.
1581 2012-01-16 21:21:37 <genjix> OP_SMALLINTEGER
1582 2012-01-16 21:21:39 <genjix> lol what
1583 2012-01-16 21:21:48 <genjix> why is this in the opcodes
1584 2012-01-16 21:22:02 <gmaxwell> And it's moronic, because people can commit to data in the blockchain without adding any storage at all.
1585 2012-01-16 21:22:50 <MC1984> so um
1586 2012-01-16 21:23:19 <MC1984> what happens when people figure out how to store partfiles for films and shit
1587 2012-01-16 21:23:26 <MC1984> look what happened to usenet......
1588 2012-01-16 21:23:27 <josephcp> that's too expensive
1589 2012-01-16 21:23:43 <BTC_Bear> And allowing that by including fees, is a good thing. It is sort of 'paid advertising'. When the chain reaches compression, it is destroyed.
1590 2012-01-16 21:23:56 <gmaxwell> BTC_Bear: it is _not_ a good thing.
1591 2012-01-16 21:24:09 tower has joined
1592 2012-01-16 21:24:10 <gmaxwell> Only the miner who mines the block recieves payment.
1593 2012-01-16 21:24:33 <gmaxwell> the 60,000 other full nodes who are the bulk of the wasted storage, are paid _nothing_.
1594 2012-01-16 21:24:56 <gmaxwell> For normal transactions those nodes are paid through the virtue of being able to trust the currency, but for the spam, they don't gain at all.
1595 2012-01-16 21:25:18 <gmaxwell> So of course, it's in their interest to keep the spam to the lowest level possible.
1596 2012-01-16 21:25:38 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1597 2012-01-16 21:26:39 user__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1598 2012-01-16 21:26:42 <gmaxwell> fortunately, as josephcp points outâ the damage is already pretty limited.
1599 2012-01-16 21:27:22 sacarlson has joined
1600 2012-01-16 21:27:32 <Joric> do pools accept OP_DROP now?
1601 2012-01-16 21:28:15 <Joric> i just remembered the quiz http://pastebin.com/VKi7psby
1602 2012-01-16 21:28:15 <coderrr> so what happens when true spam attacks start occurring?
1603 2012-01-16 21:28:24 <gmaxwell> coderrr: when?
1604 2012-01-16 21:28:32 <gmaxwell> coderrr: dude, you're like two years late.
1605 2012-01-16 21:28:40 <gmaxwell> coderrr: we killed them with the anti-dos fee rules.
1606 2012-01-16 21:29:21 <gmaxwell> coderrr: if you go look at litecoin you can see what happens when the anti-dos fee rules aren't well calibrated (and how fixing them up solves the problem)
1607 2012-01-16 21:29:27 <jgarzik> boy, I haven't run strings in ages. lots of luke-jr spam and such in there now.
1608 2012-01-16 21:29:29 <coderrr> but i mean you're saying now stopping this guys stuff w fees would suck right ?
1609 2012-01-16 21:29:35 <helo> suppose i wanted to do a secure publicly verifiable poll involving a million people. so i put 1 satoshi (including fee amounts as needed) on one million accounts, put each into it's own wallet, distributing one to each voter. voters vote for by sending their satoshi to the address advertised by the candidate they choose. would this be considered blockchain spam?
1610 2012-01-16 21:29:36 * jgarzik last ran it during DanK stuff
1611 2012-01-16 21:29:55 <genjix> why is txn multisig enabled in the pay to script hash branch?
1612 2012-01-16 21:30:00 <Joric> dude, there's a half of the bible
1613 2012-01-16 21:30:01 PK has joined
1614 2012-01-16 21:30:01 <jgarzik> helo: yes, because it is below the spam threshold
1615 2012-01-16 21:30:02 <genjix> shouldn't that be disabled?
1616 2012-01-16 21:30:20 <genjix> oh wait the solver is for the eval script too
1617 2012-01-16 21:33:02 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I don't spam.
1618 2012-01-16 21:33:48 <gmaxwell> helo: that would be a stupid scheme regardless. You don't need the blockchain for that at all.
1619 2012-01-16 21:34:21 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
1620 2012-01-16 21:34:30 <gmaxwell> helo: just give 1m people an ecdsa private key. Tell them each to sign a message "In election foo, I vote for bar" and post it someplace. Done.
1621 2012-01-16 21:35:24 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1622 2012-01-16 21:35:31 <gmaxwell> bitcoin, would in fact reduce security in your example, because the small pool of big miners could easily just drop txn paying candidates they don't like.
1623 2012-01-16 21:35:40 <Joric> so there's no op_drop for like, 2 years? as far as i remember that transaction wasn't ever accepted
1624 2012-01-16 21:35:46 <MC1984> for the record i came up with the idea of using a blockchain for secure distributed 100% transparent and verifiable voting first
1625 2012-01-16 21:35:55 <gmaxwell> Joric: BlueMatt and I intentionally doublespent it away.
1626 2012-01-16 21:36:13 <gmaxwell> MC1984: hopefully your idea was less stupid than that one?
1627 2012-01-16 21:36:27 <MC1984> why is it stupid
1628 2012-01-16 21:36:59 <MC1984> the votechain will be used by the public to verify for themselvs that the election wasnt rigged
1629 2012-01-16 21:37:19 <coderrr> MC1984, you watch this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s
1630 2012-01-16 21:37:25 <gmaxwell> No, fool. I mine the votechain and I don't mine any votes accept for bush. game over.
1631 2012-01-16 21:37:41 <gmaxwell> er except.
1632 2012-01-16 21:37:50 <Joric> ron paul
1633 2012-01-16 21:38:28 <MC1984> damn why would you mine only for bush, and you call me a fool.
1634 2012-01-16 21:38:43 <coderrr> sigh
1635 2012-01-16 21:38:51 <gmaxwell> MC1984: to prove a point, mining for a good candidate just risks you saying "thats okay!"
1636 2012-01-16 21:39:57 <MC1984> meh, i still think its possible somehow
1637 2012-01-16 21:40:02 <copumpkin> there are cryptographic voting systems, but bitcoin wasn't designed for that
1638 2012-01-16 21:40:18 <MC1984> a zero trust national ballot system........imagine the benefits?
1639 2012-01-16 21:40:27 <copumpkin> there's a lot of literature on it
1640 2012-01-16 21:40:36 <coderrr> MC1984, did you watch that link ?
1641 2012-01-16 21:40:51 <MC1984> no its 2 hours long and you posted it 10 mins ago
1642 2012-01-16 21:40:57 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yea, completely opaque and incomprehensiable to almost everyone, and only usable through opaque machines. The power to rig elections would be unbounded! muhahah
1643 2012-01-16 21:41:04 <coderrr> google techtalk on crypto voting systems
1644 2012-01-16 21:41:24 <MC1984> ok thanks
1645 2012-01-16 21:41:41 erle- has joined
1646 2012-01-16 21:41:57 <MC1984> yeah crypto voting, but has any system been sufficiently distributed yet
1647 2012-01-16 21:42:20 <coderrr> thast part of whta those guys are working on
1648 2012-01-16 21:42:43 <MC1984> oh
1649 2012-01-16 21:42:52 <MC1984> jolly good
1650 2012-01-16 21:43:28 <Matt_von_Mises> "Crypto-voting" How does the identity verification work?
1651 2012-01-16 21:44:07 <coderrr> Matt_von_Mises, facebook connect
1652 2012-01-16 21:44:36 <coderrr> or twitter, in case you thought i was serious
1653 2012-01-16 21:44:55 <gmaxwell> I for one welcome our new Zuckerberg overlord.
1654 2012-01-16 21:45:34 <helo> Matt_von_Mises: probably via centralized issuance of pre-loaded wallets *doh*
1655 2012-01-16 21:46:13 JZavala has joined
1656 2012-01-16 21:46:23 <gmaxwell> helo: did you see where I pointed out that doing that via bitcoin is boneheaded? Both because it could be done externally at least as well, and because the mining power represents a pretty clear risk?
1657 2012-01-16 21:47:09 <coderrr> homomorphic encryption, zero knowledge proofs, shit is so coooool
1658 2012-01-16 21:47:19 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1659 2012-01-16 21:47:31 <gmaxwell> coderrr: cool doesn't mean pratically secure, don't forget that.
1660 2012-01-16 21:48:03 <gmaxwell> coderrr: a lot of the more complicated voting systems lose pratical security because they make it impossible for the voter to know that their voting widget is actually lodging the vote they intended.
1661 2012-01-16 21:48:12 <helo> yeah i understand... i just think at some point in the future there is inevitably going to be a similar scheme that will actually be used
1662 2012-01-16 21:48:25 <coderrr> gmaxwell, i dont remember 10% of how it all works but obviously those guys are working on making it really practical
1663 2012-01-16 21:48:35 <coderrr> theyre not jsut wanking around w math all day
1664 2012-01-16 21:48:47 <gmaxwell> ::nods::
1665 2012-01-16 21:48:56 <coderrr> they do give you verifiable receipts tho
1666 2012-01-16 21:49:40 <TD> you can use multi-party signing over blocks rather than hash pre-images
1667 2012-01-16 21:49:44 <MC1984> coderrr you know the british govt. are thinking about using facebook for people public services?
1668 2012-01-16 21:49:55 <MC1984> theyre calling it identity assurance
1669 2012-01-16 21:50:05 <gmaxwell> thats all really tricky, if you can tell who you voted for from the receipt then you can't let the user take it out of the polling place.
1670 2012-01-16 21:50:36 <gmaxwell> (otherwise I tell my employees they're all fired if they don't all vote the way I told them to or if they don't bring me a receipt)
1671 2012-01-16 21:51:05 <gmaxwell> If the user can't take the receipt out of the polling place then their ability to independantly verify it is difficult.
1672 2012-01-16 21:51:10 <coderrr> trying to remmeber if htey address that or not
1673 2012-01-16 21:51:26 * gmaxwell goes to watch that video.
1674 2012-01-16 21:51:28 <coderrr> i think they do
1675 2012-01-16 21:51:46 <TD> it's better to not need voting booths at all
1676 2012-01-16 21:51:54 <MC1984> industrialists firing workers who didnt vote for thier guy is why we got anon voting in the first place
1677 2012-01-16 21:52:16 genjix has left ()
1678 2012-01-16 21:52:42 <TD> you can do delegated voting
1679 2012-01-16 21:52:59 <TD> mint smart cards at a factory. they contain a keypair and a certificate over that key
1680 2012-01-16 21:53:06 <TD> send them to distribution points
1681 2012-01-16 21:53:22 <TD> people turn up, prove they are on the electoral roll
1682 2012-01-16 21:53:38 <TD> their name is checked off the list once they're id verified and they pick a card out of a hat
1683 2012-01-16 21:53:39 Joric has joined
1684 2012-01-16 21:54:00 <coderrr> yea, they use zero knowledge proofs for that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s#t=28m20s
1685 2012-01-16 21:54:06 <TD> where by "card" i mean "any device that can display and sign messages". it could easily just be a secure chip+cheap lcd display +usb cable
1686 2012-01-16 21:54:08 <coderrr> gmaxwell, i mean, for the point you brouhgt up
1687 2012-01-16 21:54:33 <TD> now you use it to sign messages either casting a vote, or delegating your vote on particular topics to somebody else
1688 2012-01-16 21:54:45 <TD> forming a tree, rooted at the prime minister
1689 2012-01-16 21:55:04 <TD> the messages be broadcast to a set of quasi-trusted voting authorities
1690 2012-01-16 21:55:18 <TD> via an onion network, if you like, so it's difficult for ISPs and so on to observe the signed votes
1691 2012-01-16 21:55:35 <coderrr> err maybe thats not exactly the same issue
1692 2012-01-16 21:55:36 <TD> the authorities collect the messages and calculate the vote of each person according to their delegations
1693 2012-01-16 21:56:11 <TD> they can publish those messages as a post-unforgeable transaction log, ie, a block chain without the targets or the splitting
1694 2012-01-16 21:56:21 <TD> just a regularly announced record
1695 2012-01-16 21:56:34 <TD> (they sign the blocks instead)
1696 2012-01-16 21:56:48 <TD> you can download and verify those blocks to see if you arrive at the same answer as the voting authorities do
1697 2012-01-16 21:57:00 <TD> the vote is anonymous because nobody knows which card corresponds to which person
1698 2012-01-16 21:57:37 <TD> it scales because you don't have to think about most votes. each decision can be categorized via a variety of schemes and by broadcasting transactions, you can set up rules that auto-vote for you by delegation to other people, who can in turn delegate their vote, etc
1699 2012-01-16 21:57:50 <TD> it does not involve any advanced cryptography so it's easy to build trust in it
1700 2012-01-16 21:57:55 <cjdelisle> who makes the cards?
1701 2012-01-16 21:58:31 <TD> they can be made in a factory in the country deploying the system (or by multiple such vendors). the chips can be designed to initialize the keys inside themselves such that the private key never leaves
1702 2012-01-16 21:58:35 <TD> and is not "injected" either
1703 2012-01-16 21:58:38 <TD> TPMs work that way
1704 2012-01-16 21:58:46 <TD> they don't need to be complex though
1705 2012-01-16 21:59:01 <cjdelisle> mhm, as long as they're not shipped w/ the private key...
1706 2012-01-16 21:59:28 <TD> the production line can be videod 24/7. extracting the key from a modern, well defended smartcard chip needs advanced labs
1707 2012-01-16 21:59:35 <TD> it doesn't scale to do it millions of times
1708 2012-01-16 22:00:04 <cjdelisle> /nod but if the factory puts the keys in then just an infected box == death
1709 2012-01-16 22:00:45 <TD> that's why the chips create the keys inside themselves
1710 2012-01-16 22:00:55 <cjdelisle> k
1711 2012-01-16 22:01:22 <cjdelisle> I like the idea of just regular voting but with a receipt containing your name, your vote, and a random salt.
1712 2012-01-16 22:01:39 <cjdelisle> After voting is complete, the hashes of all those receipts are published
1713 2012-01-16 22:01:50 <cjdelisle> anyone can make sure their receipt is on the list
1714 2012-01-16 22:02:08 <cjdelisle> oh right, the hashes of all receipts along with who that person voted for
1715 2012-01-16 22:02:22 <cjdelisle> the hash can be public but the receipt is secret
1716 2012-01-16 22:02:52 <cjdelisle> so you can check that your reveipt hash is there and you can count the votes just by downloading a torrent
1717 2012-01-16 22:03:07 <cjdelisle> and that your vote wasn't swapped...
1718 2012-01-16 22:04:02 <TD> a bit unambitious
1719 2012-01-16 22:04:13 <TD> the problem with democracy is not (normally) miscounting of votes
1720 2012-01-16 22:04:21 <roconnor> pusle: you are absolutely right
1721 2012-01-16 22:04:22 <cjdelisle> complexity is the enemy of security
1722 2012-01-16 22:04:46 <pusle> :&
1723 2012-01-16 22:04:56 <TD> so why add complexity to solve a trivial security problem?
1724 2012-01-16 22:05:22 <cjdelisle> what's the most simple way to solve it? smark cards?
1725 2012-01-16 22:05:32 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: if there were a problem with votes, there'd be EXTRAS, not some missing
1726 2012-01-16 22:05:34 <TD> solve what ?
1727 2012-01-16 22:05:34 <roconnor> pusle: but miners are the new gatekeepers/banksers, that is also part of this bitcoin system as it turns out.
1728 2012-01-16 22:05:39 <roconnor> *banksters
1729 2012-01-16 22:05:41 <roconnor> :)
1730 2012-01-16 22:05:45 <TD> votes getting accidentally dropped?
1731 2012-01-16 22:05:58 <cjdelisle> dropped, swapped, added
1732 2012-01-16 22:06:00 <TD> you can just go watch the votes being counted already, to convince yourself the counting process is good enough
1733 2012-01-16 22:06:08 <cjdelisle> usually maliciously, at least in this area
1734 2012-01-16 22:06:10 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: how do you solve them being added?
1735 2012-01-16 22:06:11 <TD> as luke-jr points out, you can't prove there were no votes added
1736 2012-01-16 22:06:27 sgornick has joined
1737 2012-01-16 22:06:44 graingert has joined
1738 2012-01-16 22:07:15 <TD> the smartcard scheme solves this because it's one card, one voter. the manufacture and distribution of the cards can be audited quite heavily to ensure large numbers don't "go missing"
1739 2012-01-16 22:07:15 <cjdelisle> you could add general location to the list then compare it to census numbers and look for anything which is way out of whack
1740 2012-01-16 22:07:39 user__ has joined
1741 2012-01-16 22:07:53 <TD> and you would need large numbers to really affect things
1742 2012-01-16 22:08:31 spaola has left ()
1743 2012-01-16 22:08:36 <luke-jr> anyhow, democracy is fundamentally flawed even if you manage to make it technically practical
1744 2012-01-16 22:09:16 <TD> "it's the worst form of government possible, except for all the others"
1745 2012-01-16 22:09:28 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1746 2012-01-16 22:09:31 <Joric> tradehill has bought buttcoin.org *facepalm*
1747 2012-01-16 22:09:35 spaola has joined
1748 2012-01-16 22:10:14 <phantomcircuit> Joric, inb4fake
1749 2012-01-16 22:10:43 <graingert> lawl
1750 2012-01-16 22:10:52 <graingert> http://buttcoin.org
1751 2012-01-16 22:10:54 <luke-jr> TD: a good number of the others are better
1752 2012-01-16 22:11:00 <TD> which?
1753 2012-01-16 22:11:13 <luke-jr> monarchy, for example
1754 2012-01-16 22:11:34 <TD> practical experience seems to disagree
1755 2012-01-16 22:11:38 <graingert> lol we had that in the UK
1756 2012-01-16 22:11:40 <luke-jr> not at all
1757 2012-01-16 22:11:48 <graingert> luke-jr: have you ever seen Game of Thrones?
1758 2012-01-16 22:12:39 <luke-jr> monarchy was proven to work fairly well throughout the middle ages
1759 2012-01-16 22:12:56 <luke-jr> it only fell apart during the protestant revolution and 'Enlightenment'
1760 2012-01-16 22:13:07 <cjdelisle> puts on trollface
1761 2012-01-16 22:13:09 <graingert> luke-jr: are you trolling?
1762 2012-01-16 22:13:13 <luke-jr> I don't think any democracy has survived even a century
1763 2012-01-16 22:13:15 <luke-jr> graingert: ofc not
1764 2012-01-16 22:13:22 <cjdelisle> lol
1765 2012-01-16 22:13:37 <TD> democracy (various forms of it) in the uk dates back several hundred years
1766 2012-01-16 22:13:38 <graingert> the Enlightenment it what put us back on track with the greeks after the christian dark ages
1767 2012-01-16 22:13:49 <graingert> is what*
1768 2012-01-16 22:13:54 <luke-jr> graingert: no
1769 2012-01-16 22:13:58 <Joric> i remember the buttcoin guy was really going to get rid of the site
1770 2012-01-16 22:14:01 <luke-jr> graingert: lame mythology is lame
1771 2012-01-16 22:14:15 <graingert> luke-jr: that's what the enlightenment was about
1772 2012-01-16 22:14:23 <Matt_von_Mises> Interesting one person that did my survey things a third party verification service would be an "incentive to double spending exploits" though it depends completely on the integrity of the trusted third party.
1773 2012-01-16 22:14:33 <luke-jr> graingert: no, the Enlightenment was rebellion against God
1774 2012-01-16 22:14:49 <graingert> http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/darkages.gif
1775 2012-01-16 22:15:26 ThomasV_ has joined
1776 2012-01-16 22:15:38 <luke-jr> graingert: is a lie
1777 2012-01-16 22:15:39 <Joric> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=30383.0 '$xx,xxx offer from interested party, any other takers?'
1778 2012-01-16 22:16:04 <graingert> luke-jr: I think you should probably take a break
1779 2012-01-16 22:16:12 <luke-jr> graingert: no u
1780 2012-01-16 22:16:48 <Joric> maybe bruce wagner bought it he's a talented investor
1781 2012-01-16 22:19:38 roconnor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1782 2012-01-16 22:21:13 pickett has joined
1783 2012-01-16 22:21:15 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1784 2012-01-16 22:22:28 gavinandresen has joined
1785 2012-01-16 22:24:05 <gavinandresen> howdy y'all
1786 2012-01-16 22:24:17 <graingert> gavinandresen: howdy
1787 2012-01-16 22:24:55 cryptoxchange has joined
1788 2012-01-16 22:24:55 cryptoxchange has quit (Changing host)
1789 2012-01-16 22:24:55 cryptoxchange has joined
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1792 2012-01-16 22:26:38 <coderrr> gmaxwell, so you're probly watching it now, but im summary, you can check that your vote was counted in the public ledger with your receipt via some homomorphic encryption magic, but your receipt doesn't say what your vote was, but you know you voted for who you thought you did because of the zero knowledge proof you performed in the voting booth
1793 2012-01-16 22:27:44 <graingert> coderrr: ?
1794 2012-01-16 22:28:12 K0lky has quit (Quit: Bye bye!)
1795 2012-01-16 22:28:31 <coderrr> graingert, crypto voting google techtalk, _really_ good talk if u give a shit about either crypto or voting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s
1796 2012-01-16 22:28:38 sgornick has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1797 2012-01-16 22:28:58 <graingert> coderrr: I presume you've seen all the good 28C3 talks?
1798 2012-01-16 22:29:09 PK has quit ()
1799 2012-01-16 22:29:19 <graingert> coderrr: sounds like you can prove who you voted for
1800 2012-01-16 22:29:22 <coderrr> nah, only watched the btc one(s) i think
1801 2012-01-16 22:29:34 <coderrr> you can't
1802 2012-01-16 22:29:46 <coderrr> once you leave the booth you cant
1803 2012-01-16 22:29:48 davex__ has joined
1804 2012-01-16 22:29:52 <coderrr> so unless you were recorded...
1805 2012-01-16 22:29:52 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1806 2012-01-16 22:29:57 <graingert> coderrr: Science of Insecurity and How Governments have tried to block Tor
1807 2012-01-16 22:30:13 <graingert> are both good tubes
1808 2012-01-16 22:30:24 <coderrr> cool, thx
1809 2012-01-16 22:31:03 storrgie has joined
1810 2012-01-16 22:33:39 stalled has joined
1811 2012-01-16 22:34:17 <graingert> coderrr: questions throughout the talk are annoying
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1815 2012-01-16 22:38:48 <amiller> ++ for the crypto voting google tech tech talk, zero knowledge proof and homomorphic stuff is awesome
1816 2012-01-16 22:40:01 <gmaxwell> amiller: meh. It's not that awesome.
1817 2012-01-16 22:40:37 <amiller> no way, it's crucial - it's the key trick for 'private' smart contracts
1818 2012-01-16 22:41:20 <gmaxwell> It's not generally good for public elections because it adds complexity in exactly the wrong spots
1819 2012-01-16 22:41:20 <amiller> you could for example, take 10.0 of btc input, and spend it on 5 addresses as outputs, without revealing how much was given to each of the five addresses, but with a guarantee that the total adds up to exactly 10.
1820 2012-01-16 22:41:27 BlueMatt has joined
1821 2012-01-16 22:41:36 <gmaxwell> sure, its useful for other stuff.
1822 2012-01-16 22:41:43 <amiller> but maybe not specifically for public elections.
1823 2012-01-16 22:41:46 <amiller> i could agree with that
1824 2012-01-16 22:42:02 <amiller> still what's important i think is to get used to how it works, what's possible with it
1825 2012-01-16 22:42:08 <amiller> and it's understandable in the context of elections
1826 2012-01-16 22:42:13 <amiller> maybe not intuitive to everyone.
1827 2012-01-16 22:42:19 <amiller> still relevant though
1828 2012-01-16 22:42:21 <gmaxwell> amiller: it would be interesting for someone to figure out how to use that class of techniques in order to produce a compressed history for a bitcoin like system that proves 'enough' using minimum space.
1829 2012-01-16 22:43:05 <amiller> i'm working way out of my league already playing with this Coq stuff and monads.
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1831 2012-01-16 22:43:18 <amiller> there's what looks to be a functional Pairing Based Crypto library that i think could be used to prototype zero knowledge proofs
1832 2012-01-16 22:43:28 <amiller> http://crypto.stanford.edu/pbc/
1833 2012-01-16 22:43:39 <gmaxwell> Yea, I've seen that library.
1834 2012-01-16 22:44:09 <gmaxwell> (I've wished I had a use for identity based crypto before. heh)
1835 2012-01-16 22:44:17 <copumpkin> amiller: I've used that library a bit
1836 2012-01-16 22:44:24 <amiller> i think if more people caught on to how NIZK and homomorphic encryption works in the big picture, there would be a ton of interest in leraning to use this
1837 2012-01-16 22:44:27 <amiller> same goes with coq actually
1838 2012-01-16 22:44:42 <copumpkin> well, the pbc_sig library
1839 2012-01-16 22:44:49 <amiller> which is all just to say i think there's some value in spouting off occasionally about these topics even if i don't know what i'm doing.
1840 2012-01-16 22:44:55 <amiller> that's awesome copumpkin, what did you do with it?
1841 2012-01-16 22:45:39 <copumpkin> I used their implementation of a group signature scheme for an anonymous sensing research project I was working on
1842 2012-01-16 22:45:50 <amiller> i read your anonymous sensing project paper
1843 2012-01-16 22:45:52 <amiller> that was really cool
1844 2012-01-16 22:45:58 <copumpkin> oh really? :O
1845 2012-01-16 22:45:59 <copumpkin> man
1846 2012-01-16 22:46:03 <copumpkin> I didn't think anyone read that stuff
1847 2012-01-16 22:46:20 <amiller> well i doxxed you a while ago when we were talking about something else :p
1848 2012-01-16 22:46:20 <copumpkin> thanks :)
1849 2012-01-16 22:46:23 <copumpkin> lol
1850 2012-01-16 22:46:35 <copumpkin> I haven't done much crypto-related stuff in a while now
1851 2012-01-16 22:46:50 <amiller> i think you worked with the langsec team at dartmouth too, including sergey bratus? that's even cooler
1852 2012-01-16 22:47:05 <copumpkin> well, I worked with sergey bratus before he was into langsec
1853 2012-01-16 22:47:19 <copumpkin> in fact, I tried to get him into haskell and that kind of stuff while I was still there but he didn't seem particularly interested at the time :)
1854 2012-01-16 22:47:32 <amiller> very interesting :]
1855 2012-01-16 22:47:33 <copumpkin> I did some wireless fingerprinting stuff with him
1856 2012-01-16 22:47:51 <copumpkin> but I'm glad he's doing this stuff now
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1858 2012-01-16 22:49:32 abragin has quit ()
1859 2012-01-16 22:49:33 <ageis> is there a link to the paper?
1860 2012-01-16 22:49:44 <amiller> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~mhshin/paper/anonysense.pdf
1861 2012-01-16 22:49:47 <ageis> ty
1862 2012-01-16 22:50:05 TD has joined
1863 2012-01-16 22:51:04 <amiller> so you used a group signature scheme built with part of the PBC library
1864 2012-01-16 22:51:32 <copumpkin> yeah, there's the pbc_sig library also by ben lynn, that uses the pbc library to do certain group signature schemes
1865 2012-01-16 22:51:43 <amiller> that's cool, i roughly understand how that works, it's definitely an application of (at least partially) homomorphic encryption
1866 2012-01-16 22:52:32 <amiller> the M/N property (very similar to what is desired with M/N signatures for a bitcoin tx) is built directly into the key creation/signing/validating process
1867 2012-01-16 22:53:17 vigilyn2 has joined
1868 2012-01-16 22:53:34 <amiller> universal homomorphic encryption says this is theoretically viable for all sorts of things in general, not just the specific case of group signatures
1869 2012-01-16 22:54:41 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r8498c59 / (src/init.cpp src/net.cpp src/netbase.cpp src/netbase.h): Merge branch 'keepnode' of https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin - http://git.io/n2i0Tw https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/8498c591448d01a8a8ccc5ad1e8cbee9dbcf1500
1870 2012-01-16 22:54:58 <gmaxwell> \0/
1871 2012-01-16 22:55:38 <luke-jr> about time ^
1872 2012-01-16 22:56:25 <luke-jr> of course, coinbaser has been waiting for much longerâ¦
1873 2012-01-16 22:56:36 <diki> what is exactly the memorypool?
1874 2012-01-16 22:56:44 <diki> I notice bitcoin now has this rpc command
1875 2012-01-16 22:59:54 topi` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1876 2012-01-16 23:00:15 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1877 2012-01-16 23:00:30 Matt_von_Mises has left ()
1878 2012-01-16 23:00:39 <Diatoshi> shit!
1879 2012-01-16 23:00:50 <Diatoshi> someone on the forums said the 7970 is 11.2 inches
1880 2012-01-16 23:00:53 <Diatoshi> fuck fuck fuck
1881 2012-01-16 23:01:10 <gmaxwell> I can't imagine it being longer than the 5870, is it really?
1882 2012-01-16 23:01:21 <Diatoshi> who knows
1883 2012-01-16 23:01:25 <Diatoshi> because I have my case open
1884 2012-01-16 23:01:27 asfdeefsdf has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1885 2012-01-16 23:01:31 <Diatoshi> measured my 5850 that just BARELY fits
1886 2012-01-16 23:01:35 <Diatoshi> it rubs against the end of my hds
1887 2012-01-16 23:02:08 <Diatoshi> its a smidgen over ten
1888 2012-01-16 23:02:23 <Diatoshi> from the inside of the bracket to the very end of the heatsink
1889 2012-01-16 23:02:26 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1890 2012-01-16 23:02:51 BlueMatt has joined
1891 2012-01-16 23:03:13 <diki> haha, same here
1892 2012-01-16 23:03:19 <diki> mu 5870 barely squeezed in there
1893 2012-01-16 23:04:02 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1894 2012-01-16 23:05:37 topi` has joined
1895 2012-01-16 23:06:09 <Eliel> Diatoshi: that's pretty big.
1896 2012-01-16 23:06:24 <sipa> larger than 5970 even? :o
1897 2012-01-16 23:06:34 <Diatoshi> no fucking shit
1898 2012-01-16 23:06:35 <Diatoshi> fuck
1899 2012-01-16 23:06:37 <Diatoshi> if thats 11.2
1900 2012-01-16 23:06:41 <Diatoshi> how big is the 7850
1901 2012-01-16 23:06:56 <sipa> 5970 is 12" it seems
1902 2012-01-16 23:07:05 <sipa> 12.1
1903 2012-01-16 23:08:22 Turingi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1904 2012-01-16 23:08:55 <diki> ;;ticker
1905 2012-01-16 23:08:56 <gribble> Best bid: 6.72001, Best ask: 6.7299, Bid-ask spread: 0.00989, Last trade: 6.71001, 24 hour volume: 117046, 24 hour low: 6.5212, 24 hour high: 7.18888
1906 2012-01-16 23:10:34 <Diatoshi> remeasured, my card is between 10.25 and 10.5
1907 2012-01-16 23:11:50 <diki> sipa:why are your graphs going wonkers?
1908 2012-01-16 23:12:10 <Diatoshi> shitfuck.
1909 2012-01-16 23:12:19 <Diatoshi> goddamnit fucking amd
1910 2012-01-16 23:12:28 <Diatoshi> shit is supposed to be getting smaller, not bigger!
1911 2012-01-16 23:12:39 Kolky has quit (Quit: Bye bye!)
1912 2012-01-16 23:12:39 <diki> Those are cards made for men
1913 2012-01-16 23:12:44 <Eliel> hey, it's creating a lot of heat :P
1914 2012-01-16 23:12:50 <Eliel> cooling systems take space
1915 2012-01-16 23:12:51 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1916 2012-01-16 23:12:59 <Diatoshi> diki: look, just because I have a giant penis doesnt mean my card has to match
1917 2012-01-16 23:13:43 <TD> amiller: you implemented threshold signatures?
1918 2012-01-16 23:13:44 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1919 2012-01-16 23:13:57 <amiller> no, copumpkin did
1920 2012-01-16 23:14:22 <TD> copumpkin: ecdsa threshold sigs?
1921 2012-01-16 23:14:33 <Diatoshi> the pcb of the 7970 is 10.5
1922 2012-01-16 23:15:47 <amiller> gmaxwell, could you elaborate on what would be 'enough' to prove about a bitcoin history?
1923 2012-01-16 23:16:31 somuchwin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1924 2012-01-16 23:16:56 <gmaxwell> amiller: that there exists a rule following path between every output in a summary and POW following headers.
1925 2012-01-16 23:17:51 <gmaxwell> (I guess)
1926 2012-01-16 23:18:31 <Diatoshi> that isnt fair goddamnit
1927 2012-01-16 23:18:40 <Diatoshi> I finally get fucking money to buy the fucking thing
1928 2012-01-16 23:18:41 somuchwin has joined
1929 2012-01-16 23:18:44 <Diatoshi> and it wont fit even if I did
1930 2012-01-16 23:20:02 <dub> get a a riser
1931 2012-01-16 23:20:15 <dub> cable tie it somewhere else
1932 2012-01-16 23:20:32 <dub> or lose the case
1933 2012-01-16 23:21:08 <diki> or cut the card in two and call it a day :D
1934 2012-01-16 23:23:05 <diki> Shit...bitcoin-qt is fugly under XP
1935 2012-01-16 23:23:22 <Diatoshi> dub: cant afford a new case
1936 2012-01-16 23:23:32 <Diatoshi> and new cases are very expensive when you need sound dampened ones
1937 2012-01-16 23:23:47 <diki> what the...
1938 2012-01-16 23:23:52 <diki> how can you not have money for a case?
1939 2012-01-16 23:24:01 <diki> Americans buy new gaming PCs every two weeks
1940 2012-01-16 23:24:10 CaptainDDL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1941 2012-01-16 23:24:14 <Diatoshi> shuddup diki
1942 2012-01-16 23:24:58 <Diatoshi> some people are just happy to be able to put food on the table
1943 2012-01-16 23:25:05 <dub> move out of your moms place so you dont need sound damping?
1944 2012-01-16 23:25:29 <Diatoshi> dub: shes dying of ovarian cancer you dickwad
1945 2012-01-16 23:25:31 <dub> maybe people on the forums will donate btc towards your rent
1946 2012-01-16 23:25:42 <diki> Diatoshi:same here sadly
1947 2012-01-16 23:25:51 <Diatoshi> Im apparently the only member of this fucking family who actually seems to give a fuck
1948 2012-01-16 23:25:54 <diki> but I never thought you to be a person with financial issues
1949 2012-01-16 23:26:02 darkee has joined
1950 2012-01-16 23:26:04 <diki> Well, you don't have a 15k loan to pay
1951 2012-01-16 23:26:08 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1952 2012-01-16 23:26:08 <diki> till 2022
1953 2012-01-16 23:27:29 <dub> as much as I take pleasure from giving you shit, im genually sorry about that
1954 2012-01-16 23:27:39 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1955 2012-01-16 23:27:46 <dub> genuinely too
1956 2012-01-16 23:28:16 devrandom has joined
1957 2012-01-16 23:29:23 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1958 2012-01-16 23:30:32 <dub> should be able to fix the card elsewhere in the case, I had one dangling from cable ties above the cpu cooler
1959 2012-01-16 23:32:09 storrgie has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1960 2012-01-16 23:34:48 <Diatoshi> not in this case
1961 2012-01-16 23:34:56 <Diatoshi> go look how the p180b is internally designed
1962 2012-01-16 23:35:01 <CIA-76> libbitcoin: genjix * refdedae84e68 / (3 files in 3 dirs): script.type() -> payment_type (pubkey, pubkey_hash, script_hash, non_standard) http://tinyurl.com/84jzzzf
1963 2012-01-16 23:35:12 <Diatoshi> very high airflow for an antec case that predates their high airflow obsession
1964 2012-01-16 23:35:15 <Diatoshi> very well designed case
1965 2012-01-16 23:35:27 <Diatoshi> I dont like the external changes of the 182/183/183v3 though
1966 2012-01-16 23:35:48 <Diatoshi> original 180 is an elegant black monolith, virtually no external features
1967 2012-01-16 23:36:57 <dub> remove the top 3.5" drive caddy?
1968 2012-01-16 23:37:16 <Diatoshi> I can, but the bottom one is full of all 4 drives
1969 2012-01-16 23:37:20 <dub> locat drives in the bottom one or in 5" bays
1970 2012-01-16 23:37:34 <Diatoshi> I'd need to swap my 4 750gb drives for 2 2TB drives
1971 2012-01-16 23:38:02 <Diatoshi> and I doubt anyone wants to pony up the cash for that on top of what the community already paid for
1972 2012-01-16 23:38:11 <diki> Cards keep me warm in the winter..but no one said anything about being too hot in here
1973 2012-01-16 23:38:52 <dub> move them to the big bays, the adapter bits should be cheap as chips
1974 2012-01-16 23:39:18 <Diatoshi> dub: big bays dont have enough airflow and I only have 1 spare bay
1975 2012-01-16 23:39:24 <dub> or just bolt/tie them to the sides
1976 2012-01-16 23:39:34 <Diatoshi> 2 dvd drives and 1 fan controller
1977 2012-01-16 23:39:38 <dub> how many optical drives do you need in this day an dage?
1978 2012-01-16 23:40:24 <Diatoshi> I originally got two to region set one
1979 2012-01-16 23:40:42 <Diatoshi> then the cost of importing foreign movies skyrocketed =/
1980 2012-01-16 23:41:02 <dub> I had to buy and optical drive to install the os, havent used it since
1981 2012-01-16 23:41:06 <dub> s/and/an
1982 2012-01-16 23:41:13 <Diatoshi> still, lack of airflow =/
1983 2012-01-16 23:41:18 <diki> Most optical drives are cheap
1984 2012-01-16 23:41:22 <dub> how hot are the drives now?
1985 2012-01-16 23:41:23 <diki> $10 or so
1986 2012-01-16 23:41:40 <Diatoshi> dub: ~45c, which is the maxmimum safe temp
1987 2012-01-16 23:41:44 <Diatoshi> and they get the airflow first
1988 2012-01-16 23:41:47 <diki> same here
1989 2012-01-16 23:41:54 <dub> stop being a bitch and ghetto rig something, you cant back out of testing the card now
1990 2012-01-16 23:42:07 <Diatoshi> dub: no, but I can buy a 7950.
1991 2012-01-16 23:42:11 cronopio has quit (Quit: leaving)
1992 2012-01-16 23:42:28 <Diatoshi> should be about 12 inches shorter.
1993 2012-01-16 23:42:36 <Diatoshi> fucking amd, wtf were they thinking
1994 2012-01-16 23:42:56 <Diatoshi> why the fuck do they pull this shit
1995 2012-01-16 23:43:09 <Diatoshi> must get kickbacks from the fucking case industry or some shit
1996 2012-01-16 23:43:43 <diki> it's their new CEO ;)
1997 2012-01-16 23:43:53 <diki> he wants a restructuring
1998 2012-01-16 23:44:43 <Diatoshi> Im about to restructure his ass with my foot
1999 2012-01-16 23:45:20 <diki> goatse alert!!!
2000 2012-01-16 23:45:50 <Diatoshi> dub: btw, I dont think I'd have to remove the bay
2001 2012-01-16 23:45:53 <Diatoshi> just empty it
2002 2012-01-16 23:46:03 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2003 2012-01-16 23:46:05 <Diatoshi> cards dont reach the insides if I take the rails out
2004 2012-01-16 23:46:06 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Not that there is anything wrong with that)
2005 2012-01-16 23:46:19 <BlueMatt> why are you using Diatoshi?
2006 2012-01-16 23:46:29 <Diatoshi> bluematt: because everyone is satoshi
2007 2012-01-16 23:46:34 <Diatoshi> we were all doing that last night
2008 2012-01-16 23:46:39 Diatoshi is now known as Diablo-D3
2009 2012-01-16 23:46:44 <BlueMatt> ok, better question: why is everyone satoshi?
2010 2012-01-16 23:46:51 <Diablo-D3> damn nickserv
2011 2012-01-16 23:46:52 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: do coders dream of sheep()?)
2012 2012-01-16 23:47:10 <diki> BlueMatt:the good wife?
2013 2012-01-16 23:47:21 Diablo-D3 has joined
2014 2012-01-16 23:47:31 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: because of that show
2015 2012-01-16 23:47:39 <Diablo-D3> the good wife or whatver
2016 2012-01-16 23:47:59 <BlueMatt> what did they pull some bullshit and say "everyone is satoshi"?
2017 2012-01-16 23:48:08 <Diablo-D3> no
2018 2012-01-16 23:48:11 zeiris has joined
2019 2012-01-16 23:48:14 <Diablo-D3> just that hes three people
2020 2012-01-16 23:48:35 <BlueMatt> mmm, so they did pull some bullshit, just not that bullshit
2021 2012-01-16 23:48:36 <Diablo-D3> the plot was retarded and I want the btc price to jump already
2022 2012-01-16 23:49:18 <Diablo-D3> dub: anyhow, I might be able to get a delta afb1212 of one of the slower speeds
2023 2012-01-16 23:49:25 <Diablo-D3> to replace my front case fan which I think is dying
2024 2012-01-16 23:49:32 <Diablo-D3> and then take one of the dvd drives out
2025 2012-01-16 23:49:43 <Diablo-D3> and then buy another 3.5 -> 5.25 bracket
2026 2012-01-16 23:49:54 <BlueMatt> why not just take a cutting utensil and cut the case so that the card fits?
2027 2012-01-16 23:50:07 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: because the drives are sitting infront of the card dumbass
2028 2012-01-16 23:50:14 <sipa> haha cutting utensil
2029 2012-01-16 23:50:17 <Diablo-D3> and you dont cut a sound dampened case
2030 2012-01-16 23:50:22 <sipa> someone watched terminator?
2031 2012-01-16 23:50:27 <Diablo-D3> it ceases to be sound dampened
2032 2012-01-16 23:50:33 <dub> break out the fising hammer
2033 2012-01-16 23:50:37 <dub> fixing*
2034 2012-01-16 23:50:47 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: my 5850 is 5870 length, so about 10.5"
2035 2012-01-16 23:50:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: no I just didnt feel like writing scissors/knife/saw/etc
2036 2012-01-16 23:50:59 <Diablo-D3> the 7970 is not 5870 lenght.
2037 2012-01-16 23:51:03 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: and I was supposed to know that it was sound dampened how?
2038 2012-01-16 23:51:04 <Diablo-D3> its loinger.
2039 2012-01-16 23:51:12 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: because Ive repeatedly said I have a p180
2040 2012-01-16 23:51:40 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: and I keep everyone else' hardware in the back of my memory because I need it?
2041 2012-01-16 23:52:09 * BlueMatt needs to find a european proxy for wikipedia before Wednesday...
2042 2012-01-16 23:52:14 <dub> BlueMatt: I only keep track of Diablo-D3's because he is a beutiful and unique snowflake
2043 2012-01-16 23:52:24 <sipa> BlueMatt: unless it is worldwide blackout?
2044 2012-01-16 23:52:25 <BlueMatt> heh
2045 2012-01-16 23:52:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: afaik its us-only, but that I read on a third party new site, so I have no clue
2046 2012-01-16 23:52:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: would know
2047 2012-01-16 23:53:07 <dub> whats the TL;DR on this wiki/sopa shit?
2048 2012-01-16 23:53:14 graingert has left ()
2049 2012-01-16 23:53:18 <dub> is jimmy going to look even sadder?
2050 2012-01-16 23:53:39 <BlueMatt> they are gonna shut down the site for 24 hours on wed (or so I read, that may be very, very far off)
2051 2012-01-16 23:53:56 <BlueMatt> and I didnt feel like looking for the source on wikipedia...
2052 2012-01-16 23:56:19 barmstrong has joined
2053 2012-01-16 23:56:20 <BlueMatt> from mr. wales twitter: global english blackout, no proxies gonna work...
2054 2012-01-16 23:56:24 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2055 2012-01-16 23:56:37 barmstrong has joined
2056 2012-01-16 23:56:52 osmosis has joined
2057 2012-01-16 23:58:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: looks like the consensus is worldwide.
2058 2012-01-16 23:58:35 <gmaxwell> The mobile site will remain working, almost certantly.
2059 2012-01-16 23:59:17 roconnor has joined