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   7 2012-01-17 00:17:53 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: dude, I said I had a p180 like just before you started making your case cutting argument
   8 2012-01-17 00:18:06 <Diablo-D3> and twitter can suck my nuts
   9 2012-01-17 00:18:11 <Diablo-D3> twitter is not anti sopa
  10 2012-01-17 00:18:18 <Diablo-D3> they get too much money from pro sopa companies
  11 2012-01-17 00:18:27 <Diablo-D3> if they were so anti sopa they'd ban those companies
  12 2012-01-17 00:18:48 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
  13 2012-01-17 00:19:11 <Diablo-D3> oh, you meant wikipedia
  14 2012-01-17 00:19:24 * Diablo-D3 is so fucking pissed at shit he cant read
  15 2012-01-17 00:21:28 <Diablo-D3> also
  16 2012-01-17 00:21:33 <Diablo-D3> I was looking at this thing
  17 2012-01-17 00:21:38 <Diablo-D3> I think if I just move ONE drive
  18 2012-01-17 00:21:58 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
  19 2012-01-17 00:21:59 <Diablo-D3> to, say, the 3.5" floppy bay
  20 2012-01-17 00:22:08 <Diablo-D3> whuch is right below the 3.5" drive bay
  21 2012-01-17 00:22:12 <Diablo-D3> and above the other 3.5" bay
  22 2012-01-17 00:22:17 <Diablo-D3> it should work
  23 2012-01-17 00:25:25 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  31 2012-01-17 00:32:58 <gmaxwell> er.. is -connect broken now?
  32 2012-01-17 00:33:04 <gmaxwell> 01/17/12 00:28:05 trying connection 192.168.16.53:0 lastseen=-340766.7hrs lasttry=-368544.5hrs
  33 2012-01-17 00:33:08 <gmaxwell> connect=192.168.16.53
  34 2012-01-17 00:33:12 <gmaxwell> whats with the :0?
  35 2012-01-17 00:34:55 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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  38 2012-01-17 00:40:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: did you break connect?
  39 2012-01-17 00:40:52 <gmaxwell> It works if I specify the port in the connect setting.
  40 2012-01-17 00:41:03 <BlueMatt> I dont see how I could have, but I do see your problem, was it broken before keepnode was merged?
  41 2012-01-17 00:41:05 <gmaxwell> But this was not required before my git pull today.
  42 2012-01-17 00:41:16 <gmaxwell> It wasn't broken a weekish ago.
  43 2012-01-17 00:41:36 <gmaxwell> I could bisect for it. I guess I should. meh, trying to work on other stuff!
  44 2012-01-17 00:41:49 <BlueMatt> it either broke today or jan 10
  45 2012-01-17 00:41:53 <BlueMatt> no, sorry jan 7
  46 2012-01-17 00:42:20 <BlueMatt> its probably either in 1684f98b or ^HEAD
  47 2012-01-17 00:44:04 <gmaxwell> someone was complaining about connect not working the other day...
  48 2012-01-17 00:44:17 <gmaxwell> I wasn't aware they were running git.
  49 2012-01-17 00:44:27 <BlueMatt> (sipa's netbase stuff has portDefault=0 all over the place, I didnt change that)
  50 2012-01-17 00:45:15 <sipa> netbase probably broke that :$
  51 2012-01-17 00:45:29 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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  53 2012-01-17 00:46:25 paraipan has joined
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  55 2012-01-17 00:48:33 <gmaxwell> I'm bisecting just in case.
  56 2012-01-17 00:48:53 <gmaxwell> meh, compiling sllooow.
  57 2012-01-17 00:50:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: don't bother; 99% chance it's caued by netbase
  58 2012-01-17 00:50:55 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  60 2012-01-17 00:51:44 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't have if I remembered netbase.. but meh, it's almost done. :) (I automated it)
  61 2012-01-17 00:52:53 <gmaxwell> -connect probably ought to turn off dnsseed...
  62 2012-01-17 00:53:11 <gmaxwell> 67a42f929b1434f647c63922fd02dc2b93b28060 is the first bad commit
  63 2012-01-17 00:53:12 <BlueMatt> it doesnt?
  64 2012-01-17 00:53:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: apparently not.
  65 2012-01-17 00:54:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: sorry for not catching this earlier. I didn't pull current progress onto my test systems until today.
  66 2012-01-17 00:54:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: *I* should have caught this
  67 2012-01-17 00:54:36 <BlueMatt> it would appear gmaxwell has taken over the role of bitcoin tester...
  68 2012-01-17 00:54:50 <BlueMatt> sipa: theres a lot of things we all should have caught...
  69 2012-01-17 00:55:13 cryptoxchange has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  70 2012-01-17 00:55:13 <sipa> still, i do not expect anyone to feel responsible for not catching a bug i introduced
  71 2012-01-17 00:58:13 da2ce7 has quit (2!~da2ce7@gateway/tor-sasl/da2ce7|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  72 2012-01-17 00:58:45 zeiris is now known as amtal
  73 2012-01-17 00:58:46 <gmaxwell> Don't worry, I don't feel very guilty. :)
  74 2012-01-17 00:59:40 <sipa> good!
  75 2012-01-17 00:59:46 <sipa> what is the default port for -proxy ?
  76 2012-01-17 00:59:57 <BlueMatt> tor's port (dont remember what)
  77 2012-01-17 01:00:15 <gmaxwell> 9050 is the default tor socks port, I think.
  78 2012-01-17 01:00:24 <BlueMatt> then thats the default for -proxy
  79 2012-01-17 01:00:30 <BlueMatt> (sounds right)
  80 2012-01-17 01:00:53 <gmaxwell> kind of a dumb behavior to have a default there, but whatever. :)
  81 2012-01-17 01:01:25 <BlueMatt> well its the default for the ui's proxy option
  82 2012-01-17 01:03:59 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
  83 2012-01-17 01:04:29 <diki> I think that due to PSJ requesting various rpc commands
  84 2012-01-17 01:04:36 <diki> which are being logged in the debug.log file
  85 2012-01-17 01:04:43 <diki> it causes bitcoin to crash
  86 2012-01-17 01:05:59 <diki> sl
  87 2012-01-17 01:06:01 <diki> l
  88 2012-01-17 01:06:04 <diki> Damn...
  89 2012-01-17 01:06:12 <diki> Pressed enter instead of letters
  90 2012-01-17 01:06:26 <diki> Anywho, is there a way to disable the log file?
  91 2012-01-17 01:07:11 <riush> diki -printtoconsole disables it i think
  92 2012-01-17 01:11:30 <gmaxwell> Hm. Would it be unreasonable to use an additional 200 MiB ram during initial syncup if it made the syncup fast?
  93 2012-01-17 01:12:22 vigilyn2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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  95 2012-01-17 01:12:46 <gmaxwell> It looks like it wouldn't be _too_ hard to replace CTxDB with a class that basically maintains an in memory hash table, for all the txn and block indexes, and then just flushes it all out at once when you tell it to.
  96 2012-01-17 01:13:42 <gmaxwell> I believe that change alone would make us no longer IO bound during syncup.
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  99 2012-01-17 01:15:19 <gmaxwell> Hm. considering that our defaults allow 125 connections .. we're already allowing memory usage much higher than that, we could even derate maxconnections based on the size of the index buffer.
 100 2012-01-17 01:16:48 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: if the os cache is doing its job, that will provide 0 read advantage and only speed up writes, which could be accomplished by batch-writing blocks
 101 2012-01-17 01:17:12 <BlueMatt> s/accomplished/partially accomplished/
 102 2012-01-17 01:17:37 <BlueMatt> and if the os cache is too overloaded to do its job, then stealing more memory would be even worse
 103 2012-01-17 01:17:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: can you verify that my fix_ports branch fixes things?
 104 2012-01-17 01:17:48 <gmaxwell> It's not caching I'm concerned about.
 105 2012-01-17 01:17:53 <sipa> (i can't test right now myself)
 106 2012-01-17 01:17:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: in a minute, will do.
 107 2012-01-17 01:19:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: We're currently causing something like 23 gigbytes of writes, in millions of write operations, most synchronous and randomly ordered. And it's not the writing of the blocks themselves that matters, it's the index updates.
 108 2012-01-17 01:19:41 <gmaxwell> The index updates take multiple writes each because of the index stuff. And at least as the code is currently written, you can't just delay this, because it's used for the connect inputs for the newly recieved stuff.
 109 2012-01-17 01:20:30 <BlueMatt> (a part of batch block writing has to be in-memory CTxDB)
 110 2012-01-17 01:20:54 <BlueMatt> but Im saying do that and let CTxDB be updated as you go instead of all at once at the end
 111 2012-01-17 01:21:23 <gmaxwell> Okay, I'm suggesting that in-memory CTxDB is basically enough.  But yes, flusing incrementally is probably fine and removes my memory question.
 112 2012-01-17 01:21:35 gruez has joined
 113 2012-01-17 01:21:53 <sipa> flushing incrementally requires a completely different way of handling connectinputs
 114 2012-01-17 01:22:24 <BlueMatt> sort of, it just has to do checking against a to-be-flushed buffer as well as on-disk
 115 2012-01-17 01:22:36 <sipa> indeed
 116 2012-01-17 01:22:45 <gmaxwell> damnit is there a way to get a git format patch of a commit on github?
 117 2012-01-17 01:23:11 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 118 2012-01-17 01:23:11 nanotube has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 119 2012-01-17 01:23:24 <gmaxwell> I don't think the reads are the problem, as BlueMatt says— OS cache to the rescue.
 120 2012-01-17 01:23:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/c981d768b3cb0cf0879b3d70d3b548692fff0882.patch
 121 2012-01-17 01:25:24 gribble has joined
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 123 2012-01-17 01:25:48 da2ce7 has quit (2!~da2ce7@gateway/tor-sasl/da2ce7|Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 124 2012-01-17 01:26:14 nanotube has joined
 125 2012-01-17 01:26:32 * BlueMatt leaves
 126 2012-01-17 01:26:41 * sipa nodes
 127 2012-01-17 01:26:47 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 128 2012-01-17 01:28:16 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 129 2012-01-17 01:28:26 barmstrong has joined
 130 2012-01-17 01:28:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: connect works now.
 131 2012-01-17 01:29:04 gruez has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 132 2012-01-17 01:30:31 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * rc981d76 / (5 files): Fix handling of default ports - http://git.io/rmfL9Q https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/c981d768b3cb0cf0879b3d70d3b548692fff0882
 133 2012-01-17 01:31:13 * sipa -> bed
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 139 2012-01-17 01:33:56 <gruez> gmaxwell: i got datadir to work
 140 2012-01-17 01:33:58 <gruez> it wasn't broken
 141 2012-01-17 01:34:26 <gruez> instead of
 142 2012-01-17 01:34:36 <gruez> bitcoin-qt -datadir PATH
 143 2012-01-17 01:34:39 <gruez> it should be
 144 2012-01-17 01:34:44 paraipan has joined
 145 2012-01-17 01:34:44 <gruez> bitcoin-qt -datadir=PATH
 146 2012-01-17 01:34:46 <gruez> :p
 147 2012-01-17 01:35:31 BlueMatt has joined
 148 2012-01-17 01:44:17 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #177: FAILURE in 12 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/177/
 149 2012-01-17 01:44:17 <BlueMattBot> sipa: Fix handling of default ports
 150 2012-01-17 01:48:18 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 151 2012-01-17 01:51:34 <gmaxwell> gruez: hmph, I thought both were supposted to work. Thought my logs show I did give you a -datadir= version at some point. :)  Glad you got it working.
 152 2012-01-17 01:51:40 <gmaxwell> gruez: is bitcoin fast in the ramdisk?
 153 2012-01-17 01:51:41 theymos has joined
 154 2012-01-17 01:52:31 <gruez> gmaxwell: testing now
 155 2012-01-17 02:03:03 user__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 156 2012-01-17 02:07:59 amtal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 160 2012-01-17 02:46:57 <gruez> gmaxwell: can't tell
 161 2012-01-17 02:47:08 <gruez> got 81% in less than 1 hour though
 162 2012-01-17 02:48:30 <gruez> for some reason, even with ramdisk, the cpu gets used for a while
 163 2012-01-17 02:48:33 <gruez> then it idles
 164 2012-01-17 02:48:38 <gruez> then it gets used
 165 2012-01-17 02:48:45 etotheipi_ has joined
 166 2012-01-17 02:49:33 <gruez> http://i.imgur.com/LjLbY.png
 167 2012-01-17 02:51:08 userggf has joined
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 169 2012-01-17 03:01:23 <etotheipi_> is there a way to disable the wallet encryption in Satoshi client 0.5.0?
 170 2012-01-17 03:01:30 <etotheipi_> or any version
 171 2012-01-17 03:03:26 <gruez> etotheipi_: don't know
 172 2012-01-17 03:03:32 <gruez> never set a password
 173 2012-01-17 03:03:32 <gruez> :p
 174 2012-01-17 03:06:04 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: no :/
 175 2012-01-17 03:06:37 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: what do you mean by disable?
 176 2012-01-17 03:06:47 <etotheipi_> I meant, remove the passphrase to be unencrypted
 177 2012-01-17 03:06:56 <gmaxwell> gruez: what version are you running?
 178 2012-01-17 03:07:20 <gruez> gmaxwell: the dropbox version
 179 2012-01-17 03:07:30 <gmaxwell> Okay 0.5.2rc.
 180 2012-01-17 03:07:35 <gruez> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29653426/bitcoin-0.5.2rc1-win32.tar.bz2
 181 2012-01-17 03:08:03 <etotheipi_> gah, how on earth am I supposed to get my private keys out of my wallet??
 182 2012-01-17 03:08:47 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: (1) why do you want to do that, and (2) dumpprivkey
 183 2012-01-17 03:09:02 <etotheipi_> I am going to import all of them into Armory
 184 2012-01-17 03:09:24 <gmaxwell> grab the branch from sipa that has dumpwallet.
 185 2012-01-17 03:09:49 <etotheipi_> ahh... excellent
 186 2012-01-17 03:09:55 <lianj> "Armory - The most advanced Bitcoin Client in existence! " sounds ... hm .. optimistic
 187 2012-01-17 03:10:26 <etotheipi_> lianj, did you see the features?
 188 2012-01-17 03:10:36 <lianj> looks nice though
 189 2012-01-17 03:10:39 <lianj> etotheipi_: yea
 190 2012-01-17 03:10:49 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 191 2012-01-17 03:11:07 <etotheipi_> I still desperately need some more people to help me test it... but I also need to work on the build system
 192 2012-01-17 03:11:17 <etotheipi_> Makefiles and such, are not my forte
 193 2012-01-17 03:11:27 [7] has joined
 194 2012-01-17 03:12:12 amtal has joined
 195 2012-01-17 03:12:24 <lianj> etotheipi_: ah, you built it. didnt notice until now
 196 2012-01-17 03:12:47 <etotheipi_> with the exception of zero-conf transactions... I haven't found any way to break it yet :)
 197 2012-01-17 03:13:12 <etotheipi_> all the features seem to work exactly as I'd hoped... but the lack of zero-conf is really killing the experience (I'm workign on it now)
 198 2012-01-17 03:13:31 <lianj> didnt look like many files, but i forgot that pythonists like to have huge files :P
 199 2012-01-17 03:13:46 <etotheipi_> C++ is done "properly"
 200 2012-01-17 03:13:58 <etotheipi_> but yes, I like single, large python files
 201 2012-01-17 03:14:36 <gruez> what's with all the coding conventions for bitcoin?
 202 2012-01-17 03:14:53 <etotheipi_> gruez, what do you mean by that?
 203 2012-01-17 03:14:59 <gruez> like prefixing variable names with their type, sorta like hungerian notation
 204 2012-01-17 03:15:15 <gruez> which is supposedly bad according to this https://blogs.msdn.com/b/nicholg/archive/2006/04/13/576274.aspx
 205 2012-01-17 03:15:54 <josephcp> pretty sure satoshi did it
 206 2012-01-17 03:16:51 <lianj> etotheipi_: single-large files and no tests - hello python :D .. but from the feature list it looks great, congrats! keep up with the implemenation changes
 207 2012-01-17 03:16:58 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 208 2012-01-17 03:17:02 <etotheipi_> what do yo umean , no tests?
 209 2012-01-17 03:17:06 <etotheipi_> I have 2500 lines of unit tests
 210 2012-01-17 03:17:37 <lianj> oh yes, sorry missed to find it because its a single file :)
 211 2012-01-17 03:17:56 <etotheipi_> there 2/3 of it are python tests:  unittest.py
 212 2012-01-17 03:18:05 <etotheipi_> 1/3 are C++ in cppForSwig/BlockUtilsTest.cpp
 213 2012-01-17 03:18:40 <lianj> nice
 214 2012-01-17 03:18:48 <etotheipi_> I don't know how it would be possible to build something like this from the ground up, without having exhaustive tests
 215 2012-01-17 03:19:03 <gruez> lol
 216 2012-01-17 03:19:05 <lianj> likewise
 217 2012-01-17 03:19:06 <gruez> bitcoin has test units?
 218 2012-01-17 03:19:23 <theymos> Bitcoin had no (public) tests...
 219 2012-01-17 03:19:24 <etotheipi_> throughout development, things have constantly been breaking, and constantly needing to be retested and debugged
 220 2012-01-17 03:19:29 <lianj> but most python projects dont test
 221 2012-01-17 03:19:50 <gruez> what's with all the c based naming conventions in bitcoin?
 222 2012-01-17 03:19:50 <etotheipi_> lianj, I'm not sure if that's a thing to do with "python" or the specific programmers
 223 2012-01-17 03:20:01 <gruez> every class is prefixed with C for some reason
 224 2012-01-17 03:20:03 <gruez> CWallet
 225 2012-01-17 03:20:18 <gruez> is there any other type of wallet?
 226 2012-01-17 03:20:39 <lianj> etotheipi_: true, i will stop ranting about python's test culture now
 227 2012-01-17 03:21:01 <BlueMatt> gruez: it stands for Class
 228 2012-01-17 03:21:23 <gruez> BlueMatt: but still
 229 2012-01-17 03:21:28 <gruez> it's sorta redundent
 230 2012-01-17 03:21:39 <gruez> same with variable names
 231 2012-01-17 03:21:48 <gruez> never do that with my code
 232 2012-01-17 03:22:03 <gruez> hover my mouse over the variable, intelisense tells me what variable it is
 233 2012-01-17 03:22:14 <gmaxwell> gruez: yea, but you make blue sheds so you're fking evil Q.E.D.
 234 2012-01-17 03:22:17 <lianj> etotheipi_: funny though, is there no test lib in stdlib? you sorta did your own bool assert testing
 235 2012-01-17 03:22:30 tower has joined
 236 2012-01-17 03:22:50 <gruez> :-\
 237 2012-01-17 03:24:00 <etotheipi_> lianj, I have never really used any "official" unit-testing libraries... I've always just done my own thing... but I agree it probably would've been a good idea for such a large project to do it in a more-standardized fashion
 238 2012-01-17 03:24:07 <etotheipi_> probably would've been easier on me, too
 239 2012-01-17 03:24:49 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: It's a dud! It's a dud! It's a du...)
 240 2012-01-17 03:26:11 <etotheipi_> does the Satoshi client ever re-broadcast a transaction if it isn't mined?
 241 2012-01-17 03:26:42 <nanotube> yes, at a semi-random interval of about 30min
 242 2012-01-17 03:27:07 <etotheipi_> does it ever stop?
 243 2012-01-17 03:27:12 davex__ has joined
 244 2012-01-17 03:28:24 <theymos> No.
 245 2012-01-17 03:29:47 <gruez> seriously?
 246 2012-01-17 03:29:55 <gruez> what's the function that reboardcasts?
 247 2012-01-17 03:30:15 * gruez wants to make a command line switch that reboardcasts transactions
 248 2012-01-17 03:30:29 <theymos> ResendWalletTransactions
 249 2012-01-17 03:31:43 <gruez> lol
 250 2012-01-17 03:31:46 <gruez> that's convinient
 251 2012-01-17 03:32:32 <theymos> IIRC the function contains the "every ~30 minutes" logic, so you'd have to change that.
 252 2012-01-17 03:35:11 <gruez> it does?
 253 2012-01-17 03:35:12 <gruez>     BOOST_FOREACH(CWallet* pwallet, setpwalletRegistered)         pwallet->ResendWalletTransactions();
 254 2012-01-17 03:36:12 <theymos> It definitely does in 0.3.x. I don't know what current versions do.
 255 2012-01-17 03:36:26 <gruez> nevermind
 256 2012-01-17 03:36:36 <gruez> the logic is in wallet::ResendWalletTransactions
 257 2012-01-17 03:37:15 <etotheipi_> so here's a philosophical question:  if transactions are "unconfirmed" until 6 confirmations, why does the Satoshi client allow you spend them and pass on the risk to others?  It seems internally inconsistent
 258 2012-01-17 03:37:37 <gruez> you can spend unconfirmed coins even
 259 2012-01-17 03:37:38 <gruez> :p
 260 2012-01-17 03:37:45 <gruez> check bitcoincharts
 261 2012-01-17 03:37:56 <etotheipi_> I'm trying to justify how you can claim the coins "shouldn't be trusted" until 6 conf, but if you can spend them, it seems they are most definitely "yours"
 262 2012-01-17 03:38:03 <etotheipi_> I know they can be spent gruez
 263 2012-01-17 03:38:19 <etotheipi_> and the Satoshi client only lets you spend zero-conf tx that were sent to yourself
 264 2012-01-17 03:38:23 <luke-jr> gruez: rather than a commandline switch, make a JSON-RPC call
 265 2012-01-17 03:38:36 <luke-jr> gruez: also note you're not the first to do this. the last attempt was broken though
 266 2012-01-17 03:38:42 <gruez> aww
 267 2012-01-17 03:38:46 <theymos> The sent transaction will have confirmations >= than the input confirmations, so the value of the recipients confirmations isn't reduced by receiving unconfirmed coins.
 268 2012-01-17 03:39:01 <luke-jr> see pull 421
 269 2012-01-17 03:39:03 <gruez> i'll see if i can get bitcoin working on windows
 270 2012-01-17 03:39:13 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/421
 271 2012-01-17 03:39:18 <luke-jr> nobody cares about Windows <.<
 272 2012-01-17 03:39:31 <theymos> (<=, I mean)
 273 2012-01-17 03:39:34 <gruez> but visual studio is my favorite IDE
 274 2012-01-17 03:39:41 <Diablo-D3> gruez: diaf.
 275 2012-01-17 03:39:55 <etotheipi_> okay, that makes more sense
 276 2012-01-17 03:40:01 <luke-jr> gruez: learn to love Qt Creator? :P
 277 2012-01-17 03:40:08 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.5.x * ra5b875f47b3a bitcoind-stable/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch '0.5.0.x' into 0.5.x http://tinyurl.com/7r35pvz
 278 2012-01-17 03:40:09 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.5.x * r382e613ef59f bitcoind-stable/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp: Merge branch '0.5.0.x' into 0.5.x http://tinyurl.com/7h48gn9
 279 2012-01-17 03:40:10 <Diablo-D3> use vim goddamnit.
 280 2012-01-17 03:40:12 <gruez> qt creator sucks
 281 2012-01-17 03:40:19 <luke-jr> gruez: so does Visual Studio though
 282 2012-01-17 03:40:22 <gruez> it's missing all my intellisense
 283 2012-01-17 03:40:32 <gruez> plus it doesn't have visual assist support
 284 2012-01-17 03:40:48 <etotheipi_> agreed, Diablo
 285 2012-01-17 03:41:02 <luke-jr> use ed
 286 2012-01-17 03:41:09 <gruez> with visual studio, if i dont know a symbol, i can just right click->go to definition
 287 2012-01-17 03:41:20 <gruez> plus autocompletion. gotta love that
 288 2012-01-17 03:41:25 <etotheipi_> I still haven't opened up a Qt Designer of any sort in Armory... it takes a tad longer, but dynamic content is so much easier
 289 2012-01-17 03:41:33 <Diablo-D3> I even have my .vim in a github repo
 290 2012-01-17 03:41:42 <roconnor> etotheipi_: amoury is a full client?
 291 2012-01-17 03:41:52 <etotheipi_> roconnor, it's pretty damned close
 292 2012-01-17 03:42:04 <roconnor> that's impressive; I haven't even got my core client working yet.
 293 2012-01-17 03:42:29 <gruez> http://i.imgur.com/SjpIR.png
 294 2012-01-17 03:42:40 <gruez> yay, at least the autocompletion is working
 295 2012-01-17 03:42:51 kobier has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 296 2012-01-17 03:42:52 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 297 2012-01-17 03:43:47 terrytibbs has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 298 2012-01-17 03:46:41 <gruez> 	15	IntelliSense: cannot open source file "db_cxx.h"	c:\users\grue\documents\visual studio 2010\projects\bitcoin_\bitcoin_\db.h	14
 299 2012-01-17 03:46:51 <gruez> cxx = ?
 300 2012-01-17 03:47:07 <gruez> i know it's berkely db
 301 2012-01-17 03:49:18 <luke-jr> bdb 4.8 specifically
 302 2012-01-17 03:49:28 <luke-jr> some doc/* file has dependency info
 303 2012-01-17 03:49:51 <luke-jr> gruez: you're aware nobody has built Bitcoin on Windows in a long time, right?
 304 2012-01-17 03:50:11 <gruez> is there anything compiler dependent?
 305 2012-01-17 03:50:36 kobier has joined
 306 2012-01-17 03:50:38 <gruez> IntelliSense: cannot open source file "inttypes.h"	c:\include\db.h	25
 307 2012-01-17 03:50:45 <gruez> IntelliSense: cannot open source file "unistd.h"	c:\include\db.h	29
 308 2012-01-17 03:50:52 <gruez> what's with all these weird dependencies
 309 2012-01-17 03:51:59 <theymos> GCC is recommended.
 310 2012-01-17 03:53:10 <gmaxwell> roconnor: etotheipi_ has the benefit of working in the same language, and can thus follow the bitcoin code very closely.
 311 2012-01-17 03:53:49 * Diablo-D3 does maths.
 312 2012-01-17 03:53:55 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey you, I want your opinion
 313 2012-01-17 03:53:55 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I didn't follow the code that closely
 314 2012-01-17 03:54:02 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, in fact I barely looked at it
 315 2012-01-17 03:54:07 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: there is some exact copying, at least of trivial stuff.
 316 2012-01-17 03:54:18 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I hope you're not planning on being dishonest about this.
 317 2012-01-17 03:54:22 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 318 2012-01-17 03:54:23 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: think by next monday the price of btc will finally spike?
 319 2012-01-17 03:54:23 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I copied the page-locked memory code
 320 2012-01-17 03:54:31 <luke-jr> gruez: none of the dependencies are very weird.
 321 2012-01-17 03:54:32 <etotheipi_> I even got on here to ask about that code
 322 2012-01-17 03:54:39 terrytibbs has joined
 323 2012-01-17 03:54:56 <etotheipi_> to ask if someone knew where i could find something about page-locked memory,  I was told that that code was very generic and not to worry about it
 324 2012-01-17 03:55:13 <etotheipi_> maybe I shouldn't have trusted them... but I believe that's the only thing I copied
 325 2012-01-17 03:55:34 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: e.g. the enums for all the script opcodes for example,  I'm not knocking your work of course.
 326 2012-01-17 03:55:45 <etotheipi_> let me know if there's something else:  but I wrote the entire thing from scratch
 327 2012-01-17 03:56:30 <etotheipi_> the OP_CODE enum was probably copied, as well, but that's... silly
 328 2012-01-17 03:57:06 wasabi3 has joined
 329 2012-01-17 03:57:20 <gmaxwell> The code for getOpCodeName is copied.
 330 2012-01-17 03:57:31 <gmaxwell> Bunch of trivial stuff around script it appears.
 331 2012-01-17 03:57:34 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, the point was that I wrote the all the classes and infrastructure from scratch, and following the code wouldn't have help much because I wanted to do differently
 332 2012-01-17 03:58:16 nhodges has joined
 333 2012-01-17 03:58:51 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I'm confused what you're tryign to prove
 334 2012-01-17 03:59:10 <etotheipi_> it's virtually impossible to implement the list of opcodes without making it look like it was copied...
 335 2012-01-17 03:59:17 <etotheipi_> it's a list
 336 2012-01-17 03:59:25 <theymos> Does Armory verify scripts? I'd be pretty nervous using a client that did that -- seems pretty hard to get absolutely correct.
 337 2012-01-17 03:59:41 <etotheipi_> Armory does not do full validation
 338 2012-01-17 03:59:44 wasabi1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 339 2012-01-17 03:59:45 <etotheipi_> but it could
 340 2012-01-17 04:00:01 <etotheipi_> and it does full script eval except for OP_IF/ELSE
 341 2012-01-17 04:01:04 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I'm not trying to prove anything.
 342 2012-01-17 04:01:11 Joric has quit ()
 343 2012-01-17 04:01:25 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I made a simple statement: 19:48 < gmaxwell> roconnor: etotheipi_ has the benefit of working in the same language, and can thus follow the bitcoin code very closely.
 344 2012-01-17 04:01:31 <etotheipi_> once again, I have a ton of unit tests on that... I grabbed some crazy complicated scripts from the testnet and have debugged them through the the script eval
 345 2012-01-17 04:01:31 <gmaxwell> and you've had a very defensive response.
 346 2012-01-17 04:01:38 <roconnor> etotheipi_: oh, I thought your code was in python or something.
 347 2012-01-17 04:01:42 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: where is your script eval code?
 348 2012-01-17 04:01:43 <roconnor> I guess that was someone else then
 349 2012-01-17 04:02:09 <gmaxwell> (I'm grepping for magic numbers it should have and not finding it)
 350 2012-01-17 04:02:09 <etotheipi_> roconnor, my underlying engine is in C++
 351 2012-01-17 04:02:25 <etotheipi_> all blockchain scanning is in C++
 352 2012-01-17 04:02:35 <etotheipi_> everythign else is in Python
 353 2012-01-17 04:02:51 <roconnor> ah
 354 2012-01-17 04:02:56 <roconnor> so I'm not that confused.
 355 2012-01-17 04:02:56 <etotheipi_> and the reason I did that, was because my goal was to make the absolute fastest blockchain scanning code, ever
 356 2012-01-17 04:03:12 dvide has quit ()
 357 2012-01-17 04:03:25 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: getOpCodeName isn't just a list, it's a big select loop that returns text strings. You reindented it, but it's copied exactly. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
 358 2012-01-17 04:05:01 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: so, yea, where are is the evaluator? I'm not finding any of its magic values like 10000, 520, or 201.
 359 2012-01-17 04:05:18 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, you may be correct about that... it was a long time ago... my point was you seemed to have narrowed in on a very small piece of 8000 lines of code
 360 2012-01-17 04:05:46 <etotheipi_> in reality, the entire C++ implementation is from scratch... except for op-code lists
 361 2012-01-17 04:05:51 <etotheipi_> and page-locked memory
 362 2012-01-17 04:06:11 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: It was literally the first place I looked. (admittedly due to intution about what would most likely be identical)
 363 2012-01-17 04:06:15 <etotheipi_> I do not have those magic numbers
 364 2012-01-17 04:06:34 <gmaxwell> Then you're not implementing a full node then, enh?
 365 2012-01-17 04:06:37 <etotheipi_> I don't evaluate with all those checks
 366 2012-01-17 04:06:45 <etotheipi_> correct, I was never planning to make a full node
 367 2012-01-17 04:06:53 <etotheipi_> but I wanted to be able to verify scripts
 368 2012-01-17 04:06:55 <roconnor> I'm still very impressed
 369 2012-01-17 04:07:03 <roconnor> I know how hard it is
 370 2012-01-17 04:07:11 <roconnor> it's almost impossible :)
 371 2012-01-17 04:07:13 <etotheipi_> there's been a lot of girlfriend neglect :|
 372 2012-01-17 04:07:19 <etotheipi_> thanks roconnor
 373 2012-01-17 04:07:39 <etotheipi_> there were times I wanted to give up... most notably around the time I started the blockchain reorganization unit-tests
 374 2012-01-17 04:07:48 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: You totally should make a full node. We need more of them. Your girlfriend can wait. :)
 375 2012-01-17 04:07:50 <etotheipi_> hours and hours of stepping through a debugger
 376 2012-01-17 04:08:18 <roconnor> etotheipi_: I don't suppose you have a unit testing node?
 377 2012-01-17 04:08:21 <etotheipi_> and many more hours creating a full mini-blockchain
 378 2012-01-17 04:08:24 <etotheipi_> with a double-spend
 379 2012-01-17 04:09:07 <etotheipi_> roconnor, what do you mean?
 380 2012-01-17 04:09:13 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I offer to schedule regular flower delivery to placate your girlfriend while you work on adding the rest of the protocol rules. :)
 381 2012-01-17 04:09:23 <roconnor> a node that I can connect to who will pass me bad blockchains
 382 2012-01-17 04:09:38 <roconnor> in sneaky ways
 383 2012-01-17 04:10:02 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, haha... it wouldn't be bad if she got felt some warmth from the Bitcoin community, that to her feels like a blackhole
 384 2012-01-17 04:10:25 coblee_ has joined
 385 2012-01-17 04:10:49 <etotheipi_> roconnor, I don't have anything like that.... the unit-tests are all really low-level, just passing in blocks stored in files, and making sure the data structures are updated appropriately
 386 2012-01-17 04:11:09 coblee has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 387 2012-01-17 04:11:09 coblee_ is now known as coblee
 388 2012-01-17 04:11:41 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, full-verification may be in my future... but my goal was the features.  And I know the future of bitcoin lies in lite-nodes, so I had no reservations
 389 2012-01-17 04:12:13 <etotheipi_> really, I just wanted a simple interface for multiple wallets, importing private keys and managing offline transactions... it just so happened that a bunch of other people did too :)
 390 2012-01-17 04:13:08 <roconnor> Ah
 391 2012-01-17 04:13:13 <roconnor> I haven't done any negative testing :(
 392 2012-01-17 04:13:56 <gmaxwell> roconnor: hey, you made it fail on testnet.
 393 2012-01-17 04:14:45 <roconnor> okay, then I haven't done any positive testing
 394 2012-01-17 04:14:46 <roconnor> one of the two
 395 2012-01-17 04:15:07 <etotheipi_> and I hope someone will help me test offline transactions... I believe it is critical for businesses... and I think I made it as simple as it can possibly get
 396 2012-01-17 04:15:16 <etotheipi_> that was more absolute #1 priority in all this
 397 2012-01-17 04:15:26 <roconnor> what are offline transactions?
 398 2012-01-17 04:15:26 <etotheipi_> http://bitcoinarmory.com/index.php/using-offline-wallets-in-armory
 399 2012-01-17 04:15:43 <etotheipi_> full wallet on offline computer, watching-only wallet on online computer
 400 2012-01-17 04:16:02 <etotheipi_> create transaction online, take it to offline computer for signing, bring back and broadcast
 401 2012-01-17 04:16:10 <etotheipi_> AND offline computer does not need blockchain1
 402 2012-01-17 04:16:11 <etotheipi_> !
 403 2012-01-17 04:16:14 <roconnor> oh
 404 2012-01-17 04:16:38 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 405 2012-01-17 04:16:46 <roconnor> what about recieving third party transactions?
 406 2012-01-17 04:17:02 <roconnor> (or rather second party transactions)
 407 2012-01-17 04:17:19 <etotheipi_> this is why I created BIP 0010:  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0010
 408 2012-01-17 04:17:39 <etotheipi_> it's not only perfect for multi-sig transacitons... but it's perfect for offline transactions (it's just a 1-of-1 transaction that you don't have the private keys for)
 409 2012-01-17 04:18:25 <roconnor> I can take anyone's transaction and put it into Armory?
 410 2012-01-17 04:18:43 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 411 2012-01-17 04:18:54 <etotheipi_> I'm not sure what that means... any transaction can be saved to BIP0010 format
 412 2012-01-17 04:19:01 copumpkin has joined
 413 2012-01-17 04:19:09 <etotheipi_> if it's unsigned, you can give it to the person who has the private keys and they can add their signature to it (without needing the blockchain)
 414 2012-01-17 04:19:18 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: "the subsequent signature will be valid no matter what inputs values were provided"!!! good spotting but I don't think thats minor.
 415 2012-01-17 04:19:20 <etotheipi_> they can then send it back or broadcast it if it has enough sigs
 416 2012-01-17 04:19:34 <roconnor> well I was talking before with someone; I said that if someone sends me bitcoins, I'd rather them give me the transaction myself, since it is in my interest for it to be mined properly.
 417 2012-01-17 04:19:52 <etotheipi_> roconnor, that is possible with Armory
 418 2012-01-17 04:19:56 <roconnor> good
 419 2012-01-17 04:19:58 <roconnor> A+
 420 2012-01-17 04:20:01 gruez_ has joined
 421 2012-01-17 04:20:07 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: when I look at a offline wallet my thought is that the offline system is the _only_ trusted system, it's trusted because it's offline and can't get hacked.
 422 2012-01-17 04:20:09 <etotheipi_> they just click the "Create Unsigned Transaction" button instead of the "Send" button
 423 2012-01-17 04:20:45 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, that's why I made it... not only do I want it, I believe that businesses and anyone with serious interest in Bitcoin needs the 99% security that offline transactions offers
 424 2012-01-17 04:21:01 <etotheipi_> there's just no better way to keep your money
 425 2012-01-17 04:21:09 <etotheipi_> but there's just no good way to do it ... until now :)
 426 2012-01-17 04:21:55 <gruez_> Just wondering, what sort of IDE do the core devs work with?
 427 2012-01-17 04:21:57 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, with regards to the input values I believe it's minor because it's not a dealbreaker:  most people didn't expect to be able to do these kinds of transactions without the blockchain
 428 2012-01-17 04:22:16 <etotheipi_> and most of these transactions will be filtered through a node with the blockchain, before it ever gets to the signing node
 429 2012-01-17 04:22:21 <gruez_> Just plain text editor with syntax hilighting?
 430 2012-01-17 04:22:27 <doublec> etotheipi_: doesn't that kinda mean the "BIP 16 and variants are needed for secure wallets" is not true?
 431 2012-01-17 04:22:41 <doublec> etotheipi_: since you seem to be able to do the same thing with your offline transactions
 432 2012-01-17 04:22:48 <roconnor> doublec: probably
 433 2012-01-17 04:22:51 <etotheipi_> doublec, it's a different thing
 434 2012-01-17 04:22:58 <etotheipi_> but there is certainly overlap
 435 2012-01-17 04:23:06 <roconnor> doublec: etotheipi_'s solution is far superiour
 436 2012-01-17 04:23:15 <etotheipi_> but a little less convenient
 437 2012-01-17 04:23:17 <roconnor> though I guess it does require an offline computer
 438 2012-01-17 04:23:19 <doublec> yeah I see it's a different approach to the same problem, but I like the approach
 439 2012-01-17 04:23:24 RobinPKR_ has joined
 440 2012-01-17 04:23:29 <etotheipi_> (well, a lot less convenient)
 441 2012-01-17 04:23:37 <roconnor> BIP 0016 also solves some other minorer problems
 442 2012-01-17 04:23:42 <doublec> right
 443 2012-01-17 04:23:50 <etotheipi_> but I have plans for supporting two-factor authentication without a third-party :)
 444 2012-01-17 04:24:00 <etotheipi_> if I ever get an android app developed
 445 2012-01-17 04:24:06 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: offline systems can be hacked
 446 2012-01-17 04:24:08 <josephcp> I wish OP_CAT could be enabled and we can solve this problem EZPZ :-/
 447 2012-01-17 04:24:11 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: but the node with the blockchain is compromised.
 448 2012-01-17 04:24:36 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: yes, but it's a much taller barrier, especially when the only channel is simple ascii.
 449 2012-01-17 04:25:03 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, but if your host system is hacked, then you have a problem regardless of the offline system
 450 2012-01-17 04:25:06 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: you could pretty much solve that by including the whole inputs— and then the offline node could choose to check them and hash them itself.
 451 2012-01-17 04:25:18 RobinPKR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 452 2012-01-17 04:25:18 RobinPKR_ is now known as RobinPKR
 453 2012-01-17 04:25:19 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: the attaker could only DOS you. Not spend or burn your money though.
 454 2012-01-17 04:25:29 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: no, the barrier is unchanged, the vector of attack changes
 455 2012-01-17 04:25:42 <roconnor> I guess the first person to make a cheap $5 handheld offline wallet device will be rich.
 456 2012-01-17 04:25:44 <k9quaint> picture an old lady with a USB stick with her bitcoin wallet on it
 457 2012-01-17 04:25:49 <roconnor> s/$5/1BTC
 458 2012-01-17 04:25:56 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: it's a harder attack vector. Your communication channel is a limited ascii channel with very carefully audited validation code.
 459 2012-01-17 04:25:59 <etotheipi_> the biggest threat to my system is USB key viruses... they'd have to be targeted, but it could happen
 460 2012-01-17 04:26:06 <etotheipi_> though I could solve this with QR codes
 461 2012-01-17 04:26:18 <gmaxwell> I was about to say "2d barcodes"
 462 2012-01-17 04:26:21 <etotheipi_> both online and offline computer only communicate via webcams and QR codes :)
 463 2012-01-17 04:26:22 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: unless I trick the old lady into giving up the cherry ;)
 464 2012-01-17 04:26:49 <roconnor> etotheipi_: sounds idea
 465 2012-01-17 04:26:51 <roconnor> *ideal
 466 2012-01-17 04:26:56 <cjdelisle> k9quaint: congradulations, you have used "old lady" and "cherry" in a sentence.
 467 2012-01-17 04:27:00 <etotheipi_> lol
 468 2012-01-17 04:27:08 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: you could have a monitor and camera pair for exchanging data between online and offline <.<
 469 2012-01-17 04:27:18 <k9quaint> cjdelisle: do I win a prize?
 470 2012-01-17 04:27:46 <cjdelisle> yeap
 471 2012-01-17 04:27:47 <etotheipi_> luke-jr, exactly ... and I've already got QR code generation working, and QR reading isn't terribly hard
 472 2012-01-17 04:27:47 <josephcp> yeah QR+Camera is the safest, but it's like a 3-step process
 473 2012-01-17 04:27:50 <cjdelisle> a wet kiss
 474 2012-01-17 04:27:53 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 475 2012-01-17 04:27:55 <k9quaint> old people are vulnerable to social engineering, and in fact a lot of attacks on their identity shun automated systems and go for the paper and pencil variety
 476 2012-01-17 04:27:59 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: Bitcoin-Qt 0.6 has a QR code generator builtin
 477 2012-01-17 04:28:09 <cjdelisle> redeamable anywhere old ladies are sold
 478 2012-01-17 04:28:13 <etotheipi_> but I hate the thought of having to try to support webcam interfaces on arbitrary systems
 479 2012-01-17 04:28:14 <luke-jr> btw, I was trolling about the camera/monitor thing
 480 2012-01-17 04:28:28 <luke-jr> that's just as networked as a serial port
 481 2012-01-17 04:28:29 <josephcp> you need to get a list of available output hashes, then sign on PDA, then read from pda, too hard
 482 2012-01-17 04:28:30 <k9quaint> cjdelisle: I havent found any vendors that sell old women for BTC :(
 483 2012-01-17 04:28:36 <etotheipi_> luke-jr, I don't actually plan on doing it, but the thoguht crossed my mind as feasible
 484 2012-01-17 04:28:49 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: serial port is just as secure, and much easier
 485 2012-01-17 04:28:49 <cjdelisle> k9quaint: sounds like there's a gap in the market
 486 2012-01-17 04:28:56 <cjdelisle> which you can fill
 487 2012-01-17 04:29:30 <k9quaint> cjdelisle: I was trying to fill a gap, thats for sure
 488 2012-01-17 04:29:32 <etotheipi_> I'm not much of a hardware guy... but my job is image/video processing so the whole QR+camera thing was intriguing to me
 489 2012-01-17 04:30:18 <k9quaint> QR codes give me the willies
 490 2012-01-17 04:30:35 <etotheipi_> for now, the USB key technique I've implemented is miles ahead of the security of any online system
 491 2012-01-17 04:30:39 <k9quaint> the idea that I am running random code on a consumer device....yuck :(
 492 2012-01-17 04:31:20 <etotheipi_> I agree it's not 100%, but it's still a huge step up... and I'm very excited I finally got the pipeline set up and debugged
 493 2012-01-17 04:33:08 <etotheipi_> a business owner can create all his employees wallets at home on an offline computer, create the watching-only copies and import them to the employees computers
 494 2012-01-17 04:33:31 <etotheipi_> they can all work with those wallets EXACTLY as they would any other wallet, but they can't spend the money
 495 2012-01-17 04:33:45 <doublec> I wonder if there will be a market for signed transactions
 496 2012-01-17 04:33:45 <etotheipi_> and the business owner doesn't have to worry about anyone stealing any of it
 497 2012-01-17 04:33:51 <doublec> trading outside the blockchain
 498 2012-01-17 04:33:59 <k9quaint> etotheipi_: you are trusting the average every day person to oversee a chain of events that is intregral to security
 499 2012-01-17 04:34:07 <doublec> especially ones originating from fresh generated coins
 500 2012-01-17 04:34:48 <etotheipi_> k9quaint, I'm simply, dramatically, lowering the learning curve for someone who wants to use "offline transactions"
 501 2012-01-17 04:35:02 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Anthony G. Basile maintree * r8f5c67ff7460 gentoo/net-p2p/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Bumps from release candidates http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/gentoo_ebuild.git/commitdiff/8f5c67ff74608348dbcd1b405e22079b3dad013f
 502 2012-01-17 04:35:21 <k9quaint> and offline computers are also vulnerable (voting machines for instance), and they become less secure over time since they are not patched
 503 2012-01-17 04:35:45 <k9quaint> I am just playing devils advocate
 504 2012-01-17 04:35:56 <etotheipi_> human error will always be a problem, but at least you don't need to be an uber-linux nerd with crypto backgroudn and scripting/CLI capabilities to use my system
 505 2012-01-17 04:36:10 <k9quaint> human error is always the problem with security ;)
 506 2012-01-17 04:36:19 <etotheipi_> it's actually comprehendable and usable by someone without much understanding of the inner workings of Bitcoin at all
 507 2012-01-17 04:36:22 <k9quaint> since the idea of security is an emotion inside a persons head
 508 2012-01-17 04:39:52 hexTech has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 509 2012-01-17 04:40:20 <etotheipi_> well I got a lot more work to do to bring armory to the "average" user, but right now it's very usable (without zero-conf tx), so it'd be great if anyone could help me test Armory
 510 2012-01-17 04:40:38 <etotheipi_> if you got the RAM and (Ubuntu || patience-for-the-windows-build-instructions)
 511 2012-01-17 04:41:00 hexTech has joined
 512 2012-01-17 04:41:25 <etotheipi_> just print a paper wallet if you use it with real money... you'll always be able to recover all your keys with it, even if something went terribly wrong with the software
 513 2012-01-17 04:41:43 <etotheipi_> (but so far it's been pretty robust)
 514 2012-01-17 04:42:57 <k9quaint> can it survive a 7 year old with crayons? :)
 515 2012-01-17 04:43:27 <k9quaint> that is a persistent attack vector that I am subject to for the next 331 days
 516 2012-01-17 04:43:57 <k9quaint> (then it metamorphs into an 8 year old with sharpies)
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 518 2012-01-17 04:44:35 <etotheipi_> haha
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 521 2012-01-17 04:45:32 <etotheipi_> I keep my paper backups tucked away in a book on my bookshelf
 522 2012-01-17 04:45:56 <etotheipi_> I have a feeling a 7-yo kid won't be opening my general relativity textbook
 523 2012-01-17 04:46:54 <k9quaint> you are attributing rationality to an elemental force of chaos
 524 2012-01-17 04:48:12 <etotheipi_> but seriously, I desperately need people to help me with testing... though I will have a more robust build system setup soon
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 526 2012-01-17 04:49:01 <etotheipi_> and I know you all want to import your vanitygen addresses, sweep keys, and view all the goodies available in Developer mode
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 556 2012-01-17 07:05:34 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r4cf433c91706 cgminer/util.c: Remove TCP_NODELAY from curl options as many small packets may be contributing to network overload. http://tinyurl.com/78lppak
 557 2012-01-17 07:05:35 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r12afb479d375 cgminer/main.c: Invalidating work after longpoll made hash_pop return no work giving a false positive for dead pool. Rework hash_pop to retry while finds no staged work until the abstime timeout really expires. http://tinyurl.com/76wvnpo
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 562 2012-01-17 07:21:57 <is4tomj> Is there a way to get bitcoind to issue a callback after a transaction has been detected whether or not it is confirmed?
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 564 2012-01-17 07:23:12 amtal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 565 2012-01-17 07:23:37 <is4tomj> really what I'm looking for is a mechanism to perform an HTTP Post.
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 575 2012-01-17 07:45:11 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r5d6159f55ad4 cgminer/main.c: Don't consider a pool lagging if a request has only just been filed. This should decrease the false positives for "pool not providing work fast enough". http://tinyurl.com/7rzjc3u
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 603 2012-01-17 08:37:06 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: laanwj opened pull request 762 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/762>
 604 2012-01-17 08:40:02 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * rb2a967c / src/qt/bitcoingui.cpp : Revert to global progress indication (see #753) - http://git.io/vxGB_A https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/b2a967cd0b158f40787cc1acb4f1e245b5066cdf
 605 2012-01-17 08:40:03 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * rbe4d08b / src/qt/optionsmodel.cpp : fix the build (port IP validation in options to network refactoring) - http://git.io/jDWLXQ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/be4d08b261f8c8d08d5b28271e2f8234dc7de763
 606 2012-01-17 08:40:03 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r06706ab / src/qt/optionsmodel.cpp : Remove erroneous ":" in front of port in options dialog (introduced with network refactor) - http://git.io/C2VU5g https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/06706ab8ef3a5fc7448ddfc1f64f92505cd710ee
 607 2012-01-17 08:40:04 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r43cda5f / (src/qt/bitcoingui.cpp src/qt/optionsmodel.cpp): Merge pull request #762 from laanwj/qtprogressfix ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/43cda5f325f53e8941efa7f712aed66e3fde172a
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 615 2012-01-17 08:42:20 <da2ce7> if bitcoin is unable to connect to a proxy as specified in the coinfiguration, maybe we should include a popup saying something like 'unable to connect to proxy, check configuration.'
 616 2012-01-17 08:42:35 <da2ce7> or a banner at the bottom of the window.
 617 2012-01-17 08:42:39 <wumpus> da2ce7: agreed, file an issue :)
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 623 2012-01-17 08:47:13 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: da2ce7 opened issue 763 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/763>
 624 2012-01-17 08:47:26 <da2ce7> there we are :)
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 641 2012-01-17 09:17:36 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
 642 2012-01-17 09:17:37 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #178: FIXED in 35 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/178/
 643 2012-01-17 09:17:37 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: Revert to global progress indication (see #753)
 644 2012-01-17 09:17:38 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: fix the build (port IP validation in options to network refactoring)
 645 2012-01-17 09:17:38 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: Remove erroneous ":" in front of port in options dialog (introduced with network refactor)
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 671 2012-01-17 11:22:39 <da2ce7> Total BTC in?: 50
 672 2012-01-17 11:22:39 <da2ce7>  Number of outputs: 72 (Jump to outputs)
 673 2012-01-17 11:22:39 <da2ce7>  Total BTC out?: 50.08716915
 674 2012-01-17 11:22:51 <da2ce7> tx 67875b261073d5718e3621c17f71b588d8cb1654ad97593ce5c40f20d645b674
 675 2012-01-17 11:23:11 <da2ce7> any ideas?
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 677 2012-01-17 11:24:29 <da2ce7> OneFixt, gmaxwell, luke-jr, MrTiggr?
 678 2012-01-17 11:26:53 <OneFixt> hm
 679 2012-01-17 11:27:11 <OneFixt> fees?
 680 2012-01-17 11:27:16 <OneFixt> or, let me see
 681 2012-01-17 11:28:27 <OneFixt> da2ce7: what's wrong with it?
 682 2012-01-17 11:28:50 <da2ce7> hopefully nothing... just bitcoin explorers addingup.
 683 2012-01-17 11:29:03 <da2ce7> it has one input 50... generation...
 684 2012-01-17 11:29:09 <da2ce7> however it's output is more than 50.
 685 2012-01-17 11:29:09 <OneFixt> + fees
 686 2012-01-17 11:29:35 <OneFixt> or is it not showing the fees...
 687 2012-01-17 11:29:42 <da2ce7> no fees.... negitive fees.
 688 2012-01-17 11:29:55 <OneFixt> compare to http://blockexplorer.com/tx/a568357e8d43c06b1a4b966f01ab7f1e36c8f8744cc5a4d390c7902e25a454bd
 689 2012-01-17 11:30:14 <da2ce7> hmmm
 690 2012-01-17 11:30:26 * da2ce7 might just feel stupid...
 691 2012-01-17 11:30:30 <OneFixt> seems like fee shouldn't be shown as negative though
 692 2012-01-17 11:31:02 <OneFixt> i have a feeling it's just fees, i got confused by that once
 693 2012-01-17 11:33:12 <da2ce7> if you have no inputs where do the fees come from?
 694 2012-01-17 11:33:30 <OneFixt> that's the confusing part
 695 2012-01-17 11:34:00 <OneFixt> i think they come from the block inputs, but those aren't shown in the particular tx
 696 2012-01-17 11:36:20 <da2ce7> ah... now I get it...
 697 2012-01-17 11:36:41 <da2ce7> the fees are from annother tx in the same block.
 698 2012-01-17 11:36:46 <OneFixt> yep
 699 2012-01-17 11:37:15 <da2ce7> however block-explorer don't show em propper.
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 760 2012-01-17 13:20:08 <roconnor__> mental note: find etotheipi_'s house and steal his general relativity textbook.
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 771 2012-01-17 13:35:29 <CIA-76> bitcoin: p2k * r0525a4da1e6f ecoinpool/apps/ecoinpool/src/mysql_sharelogger.erl: PSJ Compatibility Fix http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/ecoinpool.git/commitdiff/0525a4da1e6f4bed64d7b49e63943698d96eb70b
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 775 2012-01-17 13:46:49 <sipa> t
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 781 2012-01-17 14:08:47 <Joric> are you going to black out bitcoin.org in SOPA protests?
 782 2012-01-17 14:09:10 <edcba> let's blackout the bitcoin network !
 783 2012-01-17 14:11:15 <UukGoblin> NOO
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 786 2012-01-17 14:15:11 <ThomasV> luke-jr: you here?
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 799 2012-01-17 14:48:15 <diki> Now I see what Tycho meant by cgminer discarding work...
 800 2012-01-17 14:49:12 <diki> 1550 discarded works...is..
 801 2012-01-17 14:49:29 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 802 2012-01-17 14:49:31 <diki> too much. I will have to remove the code for work discarding..
 803 2012-01-17 14:49:53 <diki> a few rejects is nothing compared ot my 150% efficiency
 804 2012-01-17 14:50:23 <helo> wow that's really efficient
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 807 2012-01-17 14:52:48 <diki> The reason is, work rolling, nothing important, but it also helps the pool reduce load
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 839 2012-01-17 16:00:25 <luke-jr> Joric: No.
 840 2012-01-17 16:00:28 <luke-jr> ThomasV: ?
 841 2012-01-17 16:00:37 <ThomasV> hi luke
 842 2012-01-17 16:00:54 <luke-jr> diki: 150% efficiency is crap; I get over 600% with my poclbm
 843 2012-01-17 16:00:57 <luke-jr> ThomasV: hi
 844 2012-01-17 16:01:09 <ThomasV> luke-jr: I was wondering what happened with your forum patch for URI
 845 2012-01-17 16:01:25 <luke-jr> ThomasV: which one?
 846 2012-01-17 16:01:40 <luke-jr> ThomasV: the branch is still there, unmaintained; upstream refused to merge it
 847 2012-01-17 16:01:56 <ThomasV> luke-jr: this one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=14947.msg696654#msg696654
 848 2012-01-17 16:02:12 <ThomasV> why did they refuse it?
 849 2012-01-17 16:02:18 <luke-jr> oh, for forum
 850 2012-01-17 16:02:32 <ThomasV> yes, for forum
 851 2012-01-17 16:02:33 <luke-jr> I think theymos was just waiting for someone to test it locally before applying
 852 2012-01-17 16:02:36 <luke-jr> <.<
 853 2012-01-17 16:02:54 <ThomasV> waiting 7 months...
 854 2012-01-17 16:02:58 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 855 2012-01-17 16:03:09 <luke-jr> you can test it ;)
 856 2012-01-17 16:03:14 <ThomasV> why can't he test it?
 857 2012-01-17 16:03:18 <luke-jr> no idea
 858 2012-01-17 16:03:23 <ThomasV> I don't have a smf install
 859 2012-01-17 16:03:35 <ThomasV> and the patch seems easy to review
 860 2012-01-17 16:03:54 <ThomasV> I mean, it's clear it will not display a cosby face
 861 2012-01-17 16:04:04 james__ has joined
 862 2012-01-17 16:05:15 <ThomasV> luke-jr: having bitcoin URIs is a minimum requirement for a Bitcoin forum, IMO
 863 2012-01-17 16:05:25 <luke-jr> ThomasV: so bug theymos.
 864 2012-01-17 16:05:43 <ThomasV> he's not here atm
 865 2012-01-17 16:05:47 <ThomasV> I will
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 868 2012-01-17 16:12:17 <MC1984> i was thinking bitcoin should register a uri handler with browsers on install
 869 2012-01-17 16:12:33 <ThomasV> luke-jr: did you see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=58534.msg689190#msg689190 ?
 870 2012-01-17 16:12:59 <ThomasV> would be nice to have your opinion
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 874 2012-01-17 16:15:55 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: thanks for the fuzzer feedback, I started working on a quick&dirty fuzzer this morning
 875 2012-01-17 16:16:01 <luke-jr> MC1984: my patch did that
 876 2012-01-17 16:16:10 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: good to go with 0.5.2?
 877 2012-01-17 16:16:31 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: Did anybody reproduce the build?
 878 2012-01-17 16:16:50 <gavinandresen> (my build machine's network is still broken...)
 879 2012-01-17 16:17:34 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: ... if somebody else trustworthy will vouch for the SHA's on the binaries, then yes, good to go with 0.5.2
 880 2012-01-17 16:17:50 <Latoshi> sweet! new bitcoin version!
 881 2012-01-17 16:17:52 <luke-jr> devrandom did, I think
 882 2012-01-17 16:17:58 <Joric> what is this fuzzer for? getting rid of ascii art?
 883 2012-01-17 16:17:59 <luke-jr> he uploaded sigs to gitian repo or something
 884 2012-01-17 16:18:15 <gavinandresen> Joric: https://gist.github.com/1525448
 885 2012-01-17 16:18:23 <luke-jr> I presume he would have said something if they didn't match… maybe he can confirm
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 890 2012-01-17 16:20:45 <MC1984> nice bip but why do you persist with that tonal shit that no one understands
 891 2012-01-17 16:20:48 <MC1984> i have ten fingers ffs
 892 2012-01-17 16:21:02 <luke-jr> MC1984: hm?
 893 2012-01-17 16:21:06 <copumpkin> not sure why ten fingers is relevant unless you count on your fingers a lot
 894 2012-01-17 16:21:13 <luke-jr> copumpkin: even then, not relevant
 895 2012-01-17 16:21:17 <copumpkin> yeah
 896 2012-01-17 16:21:27 <luke-jr> copumpkin: much easier to count in base 6 or 2
 897 2012-01-17 16:21:29 <copumpkin> it's an explanation for why we have decimal, but it isn't an explanation of why we should keep it
 898 2012-01-17 16:21:29 <luke-jr> on fingers
 899 2012-01-17 16:21:49 <MC1984> its relevant because i evolved for base 10 primarily
 900 2012-01-17 16:21:53 <MC1984> because of ten fingers
 901 2012-01-17 16:21:54 <copumpkin> wat
 902 2012-01-17 16:21:56 <mtrlt> lol
 903 2012-01-17 16:22:08 <mtrlt> no, you evolved for base 20
 904 2012-01-17 16:22:12 <mtrlt> because of ten fingers + ten toes
 905 2012-01-17 16:22:18 <mtrlt> or binary, because two arms!
 906 2012-01-17 16:22:30 <Latoshi> more like base 4 because of legs
 907 2012-01-17 16:22:30 <MC1984> who uses thier toes to count are you retarded
 908 2012-01-17 16:22:31 <copumpkin> MC1984: so earlier americans that use all those imperial measurements with /8 fractions underwent a different evolution process?
 909 2012-01-17 16:22:37 <mtrlt> MC1984: you don't?
 910 2012-01-17 16:22:39 <copumpkin> like the stock ticks of 1/8 dollar
 911 2012-01-17 16:23:01 <luke-jr> MC1984: naturally, humans avoid base 10 units
 912 2012-01-17 16:23:02 <mtrlt> MC1984: also i think it's the retarded people who use fingers to count
 913 2012-01-17 16:23:05 <mtrlt> ;)
 914 2012-01-17 16:23:12 <mtrlt> i count in my head
 915 2012-01-17 16:23:14 <MC1984> merika is still using imperial when literally the rest of the planet moved to base 10 units, i think that speaks for itself
 916 2012-01-17 16:23:22 <copumpkin> MC1984: don't get me wrong, I have objections to tonal, but the number of fingers isn't one of them
 917 2012-01-17 16:23:27 <luke-jr> MC1984: until SI happened, almost every culture was using tonal and dozenal units
 918 2012-01-17 16:23:45 <copumpkin> MC1984: every base is base 10 :)
 919 2012-01-17 16:23:46 <luke-jr> MC1984: also, no country has moved to SI except by force
 920 2012-01-17 16:23:51 <MC1984> yes and we also used to trepann each other to let bad spirits out
 921 2012-01-17 16:23:51 <copumpkin> or base "10" I should say
 922 2012-01-17 16:24:08 <mtrlt> luke-jr: still SI is a lot better than the fuckwad of imperial units :)
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 924 2012-01-17 16:24:15 <luke-jr> MC1984: even today, people in Europe are willing to go to jail for opposing SI
 925 2012-01-17 16:24:19 <luke-jr> mtrlt: nope
 926 2012-01-17 16:24:21 <mtrlt> luke-jr: if imperial units were logical as well, like always base 2, i'd probably not oppose them
 927 2012-01-17 16:24:35 <mtrlt> but they are like 3 feet by inch, 5139 inches in a yard, 5781 yards in a mile
 928 2012-01-17 16:24:39 <Latoshi> I like how 1 satoshi = 1 bitcoin bong
 929 2012-01-17 16:24:40 <luke-jr> mtrlt: they're almost all binary, dozenal, or tonal ;)
 930 2012-01-17 16:24:50 <mtrlt> they should be all in one base
 931 2012-01-17 16:25:00 <mtrlt> otherwise they're too complicated
 932 2012-01-17 16:25:01 * ThomasV is in Europe and does not want to go to jail
 933 2012-01-17 16:25:02 <luke-jr> mtrlt: I agree, that's why we have the tonal system.
 934 2012-01-17 16:25:09 <luke-jr> mtrlt: that is the natural progression of units
 935 2012-01-17 16:25:34 <mtrlt> everything in base10 is better than something in base12, something in base16 and something in base2
 936 2012-01-17 16:25:41 <Latoshi> but what I don't get, luke-jr, is that not everybody smokes weed, so why should we be using notations like "bitcoin bong" and "bong bitcoin"?
 937 2012-01-17 16:25:41 <luke-jr> not "let's throw it all out, and start with decimal despite its unfitness for human use":
 938 2012-01-17 16:25:44 <mtrlt> but everything in base16 might be better than base10
 939 2012-01-17 16:25:47 <mtrlt> or worse
 940 2012-01-17 16:25:48 <mtrlt> dunno
 941 2012-01-17 16:25:56 <luke-jr> Latoshi: what does weed have to do with it?
 942 2012-01-17 16:25:57 <mtrlt> i dont think it'd make a difference :P
 943 2012-01-17 16:26:05 <ThomasV> I hope the 'tonal' question did not pollute the debate about your forum patch; there's no 'tonal' code in it afaict
 944 2012-01-17 16:26:18 <luke-jr> mtrlt: even with the forced decimal, people are STILL finding ways to use non-decimal
 945 2012-01-17 16:26:20 <mtrlt> it always pollutes everything!
 946 2012-01-17 16:26:20 <MC1984> fuck it
 947 2012-01-17 16:26:22 <luke-jr> mtrlt: for example, quarters
 948 2012-01-17 16:26:24 <MC1984> lets count bitcoin in hex
 949 2012-01-17 16:26:35 <luke-jr> USD is a decimal currency, yet they still can't avoid binary divisions like quarters
 950 2012-01-17 16:26:38 <Latoshi> luke-jr, you use a bong to smoke weed... sorry I didn't know if this was obvious or not
 951 2012-01-17 16:26:50 <mtrlt> luke-jr: not in here. coins of 1 EUR, 50c, 20c, 10c, 5c ;)
 952 2012-01-17 16:26:56 <luke-jr> ThomasV: none of the URI stuff is tonal-related.
 953 2012-01-17 16:27:00 <mtrlt> even though there _is_ a binary progression with 20 -> 10 -> 5
 954 2012-01-17 16:27:09 <luke-jr> MC1984: that's what TBC is
 955 2012-01-17 16:27:13 <ThomasV> luke-jr: yes, the wiki page
 956 2012-01-17 16:27:36 <luke-jr> ThomasV: at most, some examples are for TBC
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 958 2012-01-17 16:27:47 <MC1984> as if bitcoin wasnt inaccessable enough as it is
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 960 2012-01-17 16:28:05 <ThomasV> MC1984: :-)
 961 2012-01-17 16:28:06 <MC1984> lets count in some crazy mesopotemian system too"
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 964 2012-01-17 16:28:28 <luke-jr> MC1984: Tonal is more important than Bitcoin
 965 2012-01-17 16:28:36 <mtrlt> hah :P
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 967 2012-01-17 16:29:07 <ThomasV> yes, Bitcoin is just a way to propagate the Tonal doctrine
 968 2012-01-17 16:29:08 <mtrlt> it's not better enough for people to give a shit
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 970 2012-01-17 16:29:25 <luke-jr> ThomasV: to me, it is
 971 2012-01-17 16:29:36 <ThomasV> luke-jr: that's what I meant
 972 2012-01-17 16:29:39 <MC1984> bottom line, tonal = ultra hipster
 973 2012-01-17 16:29:54 <MC1984> denary is just too mainstream man!
 974 2012-01-17 16:31:23 <luke-jr> wtf is denary
 975 2012-01-17 16:32:14 <ThomasV> the counting base for denizens
 976 2012-01-17 16:33:19 <sipa> nicest counting base: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base
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 978 2012-01-17 16:33:44 <MC1984> shit wiki really is going down
 979 2012-01-17 16:34:20 <ThomasV> GPUs are going down tomorrow too
 980 2012-01-17 16:34:32 <copumpkin> I love that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_0.999..._equals_1 has an actual wikipedia page
 981 2012-01-17 16:34:36 <MC1984> ?
 982 2012-01-17 16:35:04 <edcba> why not ?
 983 2012-01-17 16:35:06 <MC1984> .99999999..... does not equal 1
 984 2012-01-17 16:35:10 <copumpkin> oh god
 985 2012-01-17 16:35:12 <Latoshi> all pool servers must shutdown in protest of sopa
 986 2012-01-17 16:35:17 * copumpkin facepalms
 987 2012-01-17 16:35:39 <copumpkin> MC1984: so I take it you've read that whole page and have found flaws in all their proofs
 988 2012-01-17 16:35:49 <roconnor> copumpkin: phi^2 is an even better base.  Adding numbers becomes a game of atomic.
 989 2012-01-17 16:35:50 <MC1984> how can it equal 1
 990 2012-01-17 16:35:51 <ThomasV> ATI have a remote control; they will use it on SOPA day
 991 2012-01-17 16:35:59 <copumpkin> MC1984: how can 1/3 equal 0.3333333?
 992 2012-01-17 16:36:04 <copumpkin> (repeating)
 993 2012-01-17 16:36:22 <MC1984> because fractions are retarded weve already established that
 994 2012-01-17 16:36:24 <copumpkin> anyway, read the article
 995 2012-01-17 16:36:29 <mtrlt> okay that does it
 996 2012-01-17 16:36:29 <copumpkin> lolwut
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 998 2012-01-17 16:37:21 <MC1984> he mad
 999 2012-01-17 16:38:04 <copumpkin> yep, you clearly won by intellectual superiority and he parted in acknowledgment :)
1000 2012-01-17 16:38:24 <MC1984> thats what i was thinking
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1004 2012-01-17 16:46:39 <devrandom> gavinandresen, luke-jr: I'm the only one that did a gitian build of 0.5.2, so I didn't compare my build against anybody else's
1005 2012-01-17 16:47:13 <luke-jr> devrandom: BlueMatt's build was first O.o
1006 2012-01-17 16:47:35 <luke-jr> devrandom: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoin-0.5.2/
1007 2012-01-17 16:47:40 <luke-jr> devrandom: can you check those against yours?
1008 2012-01-17 16:50:58 <devrandom> luke-jr: I can confirm that the linux binaries match
1009 2012-01-17 16:51:10 <luke-jr> devrandom: but not the others? or still checking those?
1010 2012-01-17 16:51:12 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: %
1011 2012-01-17 16:51:14 <luke-jr> ^
1012 2012-01-17 16:51:22 <devrandom> I don't think we have a process for building macosx
1013 2012-01-17 16:51:38 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: how do you usually check OS X binaries?
1014 2012-01-17 16:51:42 <luke-jr> devrandom: Win32?
1015 2012-01-17 16:51:52 <gavinandresen> I trust myself that the osx binaries are OK.
1016 2012-01-17 16:52:17 <gavinandresen> (if anybody has brilliant ideas for reproducible osx binaries.....   go for it....)
1017 2012-01-17 16:53:07 <devrandom> I could try to build win32, but I thought we were still chasing down non-determinism in that process
1018 2012-01-17 16:53:09 <sipa> i don't think there are OSX-crosscompilers for other unix systems, or are there?
1019 2012-01-17 16:53:19 <sipa> and it is not allowed to run OSX in a VM
1020 2012-01-17 16:53:53 <devrandom> I wonder if the ports system could be used...  I don't know anything about it
1021 2012-01-17 16:54:09 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I trust you too, but you said you wanted double-checked binaries always, so… :P
1022 2012-01-17 16:54:22 <luke-jr> I don't care for delays for OS X tho
1023 2012-01-17 16:54:24 <devrandom> http://www.macports.org/
1024 2012-01-17 16:54:31 <ageis> there's also fisk
1025 2012-01-17 16:54:33 <ageis> err]
1026 2012-01-17 16:54:34 <ageis> fink
1027 2012-01-17 16:54:53 <luke-jr> sipa: OS X is too niche for anyone to bother with crossdev I think :/
1028 2012-01-17 16:55:01 * luke-jr ponders
1029 2012-01-17 16:55:02 <sipa> maybe
1030 2012-01-17 16:55:05 <ageis> I have an OSX build environment with fink and XCode if anyone needs somethin
1031 2012-01-17 16:56:40 <luke-jr> http://code.google.com/p/toolwhip/
1032 2012-01-17 16:56:50 <luke-jr> ageis: setup to build Bitcoin?
1033 2012-01-17 16:57:06 <sipa> interesting!
1034 2012-01-17 16:58:10 <ageis> luke-jr: i can try
1035 2012-01-17 16:58:16 <ageis> haven't done it yet
1036 2012-01-17 16:58:26 <sipa> the problem is not a setup to build bitcoin
1037 2012-01-17 16:58:29 <ageis> fink should supply a lot of the dependencies
1038 2012-01-17 16:59:03 <gavinandresen> I use macports to get most of the osx dependencies.  But as sipa said, that's not the problem-- the problem is getting reproducible builds.
1039 2012-01-17 17:00:04 <luke-jr> devrandom: anyhow, better to try to build win32 than not try at all
1040 2012-01-17 17:00:43 <devrandom> luke-jr: ok
1041 2012-01-17 17:03:03 <devrandom> building
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1043 2012-01-17 17:05:58 <ageis> which source should i try to build?
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1045 2012-01-17 17:08:27 <devrandom> ageis: there's no way to get a reproduceable build on OSX, so there's no point (see https://gitian.org/ for why we are trying to do that)
1046 2012-01-17 17:09:18 <ageis> gotcha
1047 2012-01-17 17:09:41 <luke-jr> devrandom: how's non-Ruby gitian coming? :P
1048 2012-01-17 17:12:46 <devrandom> luke-jr: slowly
1049 2012-01-17 17:13:22 <devrandom> luke-jr: i.e. not happening yet :-P
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1088 2012-01-17 18:16:59 <Diablo-D3> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812123319
1089 2012-01-17 18:17:02 <Diablo-D3> lol 28"
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1091 2012-01-17 18:31:58 <DrHaribo> Anyone know which miner support the noncerange extension?
1092 2012-01-17 18:32:04 <DrHaribo> *miners
1093 2012-01-17 18:33:04 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: I think gMinor claims to
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1098 2012-01-17 18:37:55 <DrHaribo> luke-jr: Did you implement noncerange on your server? Sounds like there is very little miner support.
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1101 2012-01-17 18:38:20 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: I wrote a reference implementation for pushpool a while ago, but never got it merged with my live server
1102 2012-01-17 18:39:19 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck
1103 2012-01-17 18:39:24 <Diablo-D3> doesnt newegg sell a pci-e 6 to 8?
1104 2012-01-17 18:39:56 <DrHaribo> Too bad, seems like it could be a useful extension
1105 2012-01-17 18:40:08 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: indeed
1106 2012-01-17 18:40:21 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: how about being the first mainstream miner to support it? :P
1107 2012-01-17 18:42:59 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: supporting what?
1108 2012-01-17 18:44:15 danbri has joined
1109 2012-01-17 18:46:12 danbri has quit (Excess Flood)
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1111 2012-01-17 18:47:39 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: noncerange
1112 2012-01-17 18:49:30 danbri has joined
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1119 2012-01-17 18:59:34 <devrandom> luke-jr, gavinandresen: for win32, no match on bitcoin-qt or setup, but match on bitcoind
1120 2012-01-17 18:59:59 <luke-jr> O.o
1121 2012-01-17 19:00:11 <sipa> is the reason for that indeterminism found already, actually?
1122 2012-01-17 19:00:19 <luke-jr> I *guess* that means there's still deterministic bugs?
1123 2012-01-17 19:00:33 <luke-jr> devrandom: are the bitcoin-qts *close*?
1124 2012-01-17 19:00:52 <luke-jr> devrandom: want to post yours so I can analyze it?
1125 2012-01-17 19:01:40 MC1984 has joined
1126 2012-01-17 19:02:47 <gmaxwell> it can be useful to objdump the files and diff them.
1127 2012-01-17 19:03:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: my plan exactly
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1129 2012-01-17 19:04:13 MC1984 is now known as MasterChef
1130 2012-01-17 19:04:58 MasterChef is now known as MC1984
1131 2012-01-17 19:05:28 egecko has joined
1132 2012-01-17 19:05:38 <sipa> MC1984: convinced already that 0.9999999... == 1 ?
1133 2012-01-17 19:05:39 Guest25046 is now known as jarpiain
1134 2012-01-17 19:06:01 <MC1984> no
1135 2012-01-17 19:06:21 <sipa> is 0.3333333... == 1/3 ?
1136 2012-01-17 19:07:11 <Diablo-D3> yes
1137 2012-01-17 19:07:16 <luke-jr> sipa: no
1138 2012-01-17 19:07:18 <MC1984> fuck fractions
1139 2012-01-17 19:07:30 <luke-jr> 1/3 is 0.555…
1140 2012-01-17 19:07:44 <luke-jr> 2/3 is 0.999…
1141 2012-01-17 19:08:01 <sipa> is it unreasonable to assume i'm using decimal here?
1142 2012-01-17 19:08:06 <luke-jr> yes. :P
1143 2012-01-17 19:08:10 <sipa> please
1144 2012-01-17 19:08:24 <MC1984> he is the brige troll of bitcoin i swear
1145 2012-01-17 19:08:54 <luke-jr> it's unreasonable to be arguing over whether 0.999… == 1 or not
1146 2012-01-17 19:08:56 <luke-jr> ;)
1147 2012-01-17 19:10:25 <MC1984> ok 1/3 appears to be .33333
1148 2012-01-17 19:10:51 <sipa> now, multiply the fraction by 3, and al digits in the expansion by 3
1149 2012-01-17 19:10:59 <sipa> you get 3/3 == 0.999999...
1150 2012-01-17 19:11:06 <MC1984> somethings tells me thats a failure of representing a third though
1151 2012-01-17 19:11:16 <sipa> it is not
1152 2012-01-17 19:11:17 <Diablo-D3> its, btw, 0.3333~
1153 2012-01-17 19:11:22 <Diablo-D3> the 3s go on forever
1154 2012-01-17 19:11:26 <sipa> yes, of course
1155 2012-01-17 19:11:32 <sipa> hence the ...
1156 2012-01-17 19:12:04 <MC1984> yes so 1/3 is .333333...
1157 2012-01-17 19:12:14 <MC1984> and yet i cant accept that .9999999 is 1
1158 2012-01-17 19:12:18 <MC1984> this is fuckery
1159 2012-01-17 19:12:21 <Diablo-D3> sipa: two different ways of writing it I think
1160 2012-01-17 19:12:25 <Diablo-D3> when I was in school, it was ~
1161 2012-01-17 19:12:30 <sipa> Diablo-D3: sure, can be
1162 2012-01-17 19:12:56 <Diablo-D3> mc1984: .99999 is 1 depending on your rounding rules. ;)
1163 2012-01-17 19:13:02 <luke-jr> .333… * 3 = 1
1164 2012-01-17 19:13:05 <sipa> MC1984: the series 0.9, 0.99, 0.999, 0.9999, 0.99999..., is a series that converges to 1; it comes closer and closer (and arbitrarily close), but does not reach it
1165 2012-01-17 19:13:15 <luke-jr> .999… != 1
1166 2012-01-17 19:13:26 <MC1984> thats what i mean
1167 2012-01-17 19:13:28 <sipa> MC1984: now, 0.9999... (with the ...) represents the limit of that series
1168 2012-01-17 19:13:30 <luke-jr> sipa: which means it isn't 1
1169 2012-01-17 19:13:35 <MC1984> it approaches 1
1170 2012-01-17 19:13:44 <sipa> MC1984: the series approaches it, yes
1171 2012-01-17 19:13:47 <MC1984> but it is not exactly equal to 1 and never will be
1172 2012-01-17 19:14:03 <sipa> but with the ..., we are talking about the limit of the series, and not the series itself
1173 2012-01-17 19:14:13 <luke-jr> sipa: not most people
1174 2012-01-17 19:14:13 <MC1984> its an infinite number, the moment you stop counting it out to define it, it does not equal one
1175 2012-01-17 19:14:23 <MC1984> disrupt that process and the whole premise is fucked
1176 2012-01-17 19:14:24 <sipa> MC1984: but it does not stop
1177 2012-01-17 19:14:44 <luke-jr> 0.999… to me means the series itself
1178 2012-01-17 19:14:52 <luke-jr> a single number
1179 2012-01-17 19:14:57 <luke-jr> infinitely close to 1, but not 1 itself
1180 2012-01-17 19:15:12 <MC1984> fuck maths i swear
1181 2012-01-17 19:15:17 <sipa> in the set of real numbers there does not exist something infinitely close to 1 but not 1
1182 2012-01-17 19:15:29 <luke-jr> fine, so maybe it isn't a real number.
1183 2012-01-17 19:15:36 <luke-jr> but it's still a concept.
1184 2012-01-17 19:15:41 <sipa> in that case, you are right
1185 2012-01-17 19:15:53 <sipa> i was assuming real numbers here
1186 2012-01-17 19:16:20 * luke-jr can live with non-real numbers. :p
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1191 2012-01-17 19:19:47 <MC1984> so if we jump through a black hole into some strange universe, .99999..... really does =1?
1192 2012-01-17 19:20:06 cronopio has quit (Quit: leaving)
1193 2012-01-17 19:20:10 <copumpkin> I take it you still haven't read that wikipedia article
1194 2012-01-17 19:20:26 <MC1984> its over my head
1195 2012-01-17 19:20:42 <copumpkin> so you don't understand math but you insist on having opinions about it?
1196 2012-01-17 19:21:04 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1197 2012-01-17 19:21:31 <copumpkin> the basic point is that decimal notation isn't unique. More than one decimal sequence can represent the same underlying number
1198 2012-01-17 19:21:52 <copumpkin> the same idea applies in any base, for what it's worth
1199 2012-01-17 19:21:56 Nicksasa has joined
1200 2012-01-17 19:22:14 <sipa> copumpkin: not every real number has multiple representations
1201 2012-01-17 19:22:20 dub has quit (Changing host)
1202 2012-01-17 19:22:20 dub has joined
1203 2012-01-17 19:22:26 <copumpkin> sipa: I didn't say that :P
1204 2012-01-17 19:22:28 <sipa> (but some do, like 1 and 0.99999...)
1205 2012-01-17 19:22:31 <sipa> ok than
1206 2012-01-17 19:22:34 <sipa> then
1207 2012-01-17 19:22:37 <MC1984> i have no idea what you just said
1208 2012-01-17 19:23:02 <copumpkin> 1 and 0.9 repeating are the same number, just like 0.1 and 0.09 repeating are the same number
1209 2012-01-17 19:23:02 <MC1984> and having opinions on things we dont know about is what makes us all citizens of the glorious west
1210 2012-01-17 19:23:19 <sipa> haha
1211 2012-01-17 19:23:32 <copumpkin> “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
1212 2012-01-17 19:23:43 <copumpkin> (Asimov)
1213 2012-01-17 19:23:58 <copumpkin> </elitist_bastard>
1214 2012-01-17 19:24:21 <gmaxwell> .999…==1 is one of the uncountably infinite repeated arguements on the internet.
1215 2012-01-17 19:24:24 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1216 2012-01-17 19:24:59 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: which is more controversial, the monty hall problem or that one?
1217 2012-01-17 19:25:12 <gmaxwell> There is an elegant semi-proof of the equality, 1/3 == .3333   multiply both by 3   1/3*3 = 1  ; 3*.333 = .999
1218 2012-01-17 19:25:21 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: he seems to reject fractions
1219 2012-01-17 19:25:28 BurtyB has joined
1220 2012-01-17 19:25:45 <copumpkin> I tried that one earlier, and got [11:31:47] <MC1984> because fractions are retarded weve already established that
1221 2012-01-17 19:25:54 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: oh sorry, I'm LIFO.
1222 2012-01-17 19:26:06 <gmaxwell> Monty hall is easily settled with simulation.
1223 2012-01-17 19:26:10 <sipa> luke-jr: if you claim that 0.9999... is "slightly less than 1", 0.33333... is also "slightly less" than 1/3, by the way.
1224 2012-01-17 19:26:28 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: no, 3 * .333… = 1
1225 2012-01-17 19:26:34 <nanotube> hehe at least the OT discussion on -dev is more fun than OT stuff elsewhere.
1226 2012-01-17 19:26:41 <MC1984> fractions dont seem to wholly reconcile with denary system
1227 2012-01-17 19:26:44 * Diablo-D3 ponders just buying like 9000 molex->something plugs
1228 2012-01-17 19:26:49 <copumpkin> there are alternate systems in which 0.9 repeating actually is "slightly less" than 1, but they aren't mainstream and most of math isn't built on top of them
1229 2012-01-17 19:26:57 <luke-jr> sipa: how about "neither less than, nor equal to"? ;p
1230 2012-01-17 19:27:00 <MC1984> theyre both just human constructs for the representation of numbers
1231 2012-01-17 19:27:04 <luke-jr> (nor greater than obviously)
1232 2012-01-17 19:27:07 <Diablo-D3> copumpkin: well
1233 2012-01-17 19:27:09 <copumpkin> luke-jr: ooh, the IEEE 754 approach
1234 2012-01-17 19:27:14 <sipa> copumpkin: haha
1235 2012-01-17 19:27:17 <Diablo-D3> yeahm ieee 754 gets it "right"
1236 2012-01-17 19:27:26 <MC1984> i dont think theyre comparable and .99999...=1 fuckery shows that it hink
1237 2012-01-17 19:27:47 <copumpkin> there's a simple formula for summing an infinite geometric series that most high-schoolers learn
1238 2012-01-17 19:27:55 <Diablo-D3> the problem is, decimal representation of fractions is inherently wrong
1239 2012-01-17 19:27:59 <copumpkin> that also gives you an obvious "proof" that 0.999… = 1
1240 2012-01-17 19:28:11 <sipa> Diablo-D3: it is not
1241 2012-01-17 19:28:13 <MC1984> Diablo-D3 thats what i said
1242 2012-01-17 19:28:24 <gmaxwell> I heard that if you put an airplane on a treadmill that it can't take off.
1243 2012-01-17 19:28:30 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: lol
1244 2012-01-17 19:28:35 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: lol
1245 2012-01-17 19:28:35 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: oh christ not that one
1246 2012-01-17 19:28:39 <gmaxwell> (assuming the treadmill matches the planes speed)
1247 2012-01-17 19:28:40 <amiller> gmaxwell, i saw a youtube video with a counter example
1248 2012-01-17 19:28:40 <sipa> 0.333... describes exactly one real number, one that equals 1/3
1249 2012-01-17 19:28:45 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: did you see the whole mythbusters episode on that? I can't believe they made a whole episode on such an obvious question
1250 2012-01-17 19:28:54 <gmaxwell> amiller: (Yes, I'm trolling)
1251 2012-01-17 19:28:59 <Joric> they actually took off in the end
1252 2012-01-17 19:28:59 <amiller> bah
1253 2012-01-17 19:29:01 <Diablo-D3> before mythbusters we had... cecil adams.
1254 2012-01-17 19:29:03 <sipa> copumpkin: what was the outcome?
1255 2012-01-17 19:29:06 <copumpkin> sipa: guess :P
1256 2012-01-17 19:29:21 <copumpkin> sipa: OBVIOUSLY it didn't take off, duh
1257 2012-01-17 19:29:29 <copumpkin> the treadmill was slowing it down
1258 2012-01-17 19:29:38 <gmaxwell> It took off, of course. It helps if you imagine the plane to be a hovercraft (the wheels just roll with a little friction)
1259 2012-01-17 19:29:45 <copumpkin> :P
1260 2012-01-17 19:29:54 <gmaxwell> frighteningly, the pilot thought it wouldn't take off.
1261 2012-01-17 19:30:03 Internet13 has joined
1262 2012-01-17 19:30:15 <copumpkin> many mathematicians have argued against the switching doors answer for monty hall
1263 2012-01-17 19:30:24 <copumpkin> being an "expert" doesn't always help :P
1264 2012-01-17 19:30:35 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: yea, comes from a language disgreement about what monty hall knows/does.
1265 2012-01-17 19:30:37 <copumpkin> especially if your subfield doesn't involve careful thinking about that kind of problem
1266 2012-01-17 19:30:39 <sipa> history is full of very smart people who said very stupid things
1267 2012-01-17 19:30:52 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: if you make monty random (he can show the car) then it doesn't work.
1268 2012-01-17 19:31:02 <copumpkin> oh, sure
1269 2012-01-17 19:31:11 <copumpkin> but I think that's a fairly silly assumption :P
1270 2012-01-17 19:31:12 larsivi has joined
1271 2012-01-17 19:31:16 <copumpkin> since everyone says it's a game show
1272 2012-01-17 19:31:21 <MC1984> i think the plane will take off
1273 2012-01-17 19:31:34 <copumpkin> MC1984: depends where its propulsion is coming from!
1274 2012-01-17 19:31:36 <gmaxwell> yea, but it's hard to escape once you believe that perspective.
1275 2012-01-17 19:31:40 <copumpkin> but yeah, for most real planes it will :P
1276 2012-01-17 19:31:56 <MC1984> its pushing against the air not the ground
1277 2012-01-17 19:31:56 <copumpkin> say you designed an um
1278 2012-01-17 19:32:02 <copumpkin> a glider that has a race car tow it
1279 2012-01-17 19:32:15 <copumpkin> and they're both on the treadmill
1280 2012-01-17 19:32:20 <gmaxwell> yea, if the plane had engines attacked to the wheels, then it wouldn't.
1281 2012-01-17 19:32:27 <copumpkin> or someone put a massive engine into the glider's landing gear to help it take off
1282 2012-01-17 19:32:30 <sipa> yeah attacking engines!
1283 2012-01-17 19:32:43 <MC1984> put the plane in a win tunnel, and it will still take off but wont go anywhere
1284 2012-01-17 19:32:58 <helo> that would be awesome
1285 2012-01-17 19:33:00 <gmaxwell> hahah
1286 2012-01-17 19:33:04 <gmaxwell> attached.
1287 2012-01-17 19:33:13 <sipa> MC1984: at exactly the correct wind speed, yes :)
1288 2012-01-17 19:33:21 <MC1984> thats what i mean
1289 2012-01-17 19:33:28 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1290 2012-01-17 19:33:34 <MC1984> you get some great troll physics threads on /sci/
1291 2012-01-17 19:33:41 <gmaxwell> the control loop for that would be fun.
1292 2012-01-17 19:33:53 <MC1984> there was one to do with ramming a cube through a portal, was genuinely perplexing
1293 2012-01-17 19:34:07 <amiller> copumpkin, look i made a theorem that [OP_PUSHDATA OP_DROP] is equivalent to [OP_NOP]   (according to my pure functional definition of those ops) https://github.com/amiller/CoinCoq/blob/master/Examples.v
1294 2012-01-17 19:34:27 <sipa> amiller: nice!
1295 2012-01-17 19:34:42 <copumpkin> cool :)
1296 2012-01-17 19:34:43 <devrandom> sipa: luke-jr: I think the problem is in the qt build...
1297 2012-01-17 19:34:58 <devrandom> will post a qt build later
1298 2012-01-17 19:35:19 <luke-jr> devrandom: … please post your results so I can look too :P
1299 2012-01-17 19:35:22 <copumpkin> (* Helper functions, would probably be easier just to use monads *)
1300 2012-01-17 19:35:23 <copumpkin> zomg
1301 2012-01-17 19:35:27 <sipa> devrandom: but what is different? a randomly generated number? the time? the phase of the moon?
1302 2012-01-17 19:35:28 <copumpkin> use the monad, luke
1303 2012-01-17 19:35:30 <copumpkin> oh wait, not luke
1304 2012-01-17 19:35:34 <amiller> lol
1305 2012-01-17 19:35:36 <copumpkin> use the monad, amiller
1306 2012-01-17 19:35:36 danbri has joined
1307 2012-01-17 19:35:50 <copumpkin> amiller: was it you who linked to the hoare state monad?
1308 2012-01-17 19:35:59 <amiller> yeah
1309 2012-01-17 19:36:02 <copumpkin> cool
1310 2012-01-17 19:36:03 amtal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1311 2012-01-17 19:36:06 <amiller> i went on a whole tour of monads and how they would work in the theorem prover
1312 2012-01-17 19:36:08 <copumpkin> that'll work nicely
1313 2012-01-17 19:36:15 <amiller> to the best i understand it, i would still have to write a pure functional specification
1314 2012-01-17 19:36:31 <copumpkin> yeah, pretty much anything in a theorem prover is purely functional
1315 2012-01-17 19:36:33 <devrandom> sipa: I don't know, I just remember that BlueMatt and I had diffs there
1316 2012-01-17 19:36:38 <amiller> and what i could use the hoarestatemonad to do is to show that a monadic form (x <- pop; push x; push x) is euqivalent to the pure functional one
1317 2012-01-17 19:36:40 <copumpkin> the best you can get to move away from that is to model effects explicitly
1318 2012-01-17 19:36:52 <amiller> but that i can't use the monads to circumvent the need to write an entire pure functional spec
1319 2012-01-17 19:36:57 <copumpkin> yeah, tru
1320 2012-01-17 19:36:58 <copumpkin> e
1321 2012-01-17 19:37:03 <amiller> yeah i think we're in synch there
1322 2012-01-17 19:37:07 <amiller> cool :p
1323 2012-01-17 19:37:14 <devrandom> luke-jr: I'm uploading the bitcoin build to https://gitian.org/0.5.2-win32.zip (will take another 5 min to complete)
1324 2012-01-17 19:37:34 * sipa finds the overlap between #bitcoin-dev and #haskell remarkable
1325 2012-01-17 19:37:58 <amiller> i don't understand #haskell, man
1326 2012-01-17 19:38:04 <devrandom> will upload the qt build tonight or tomorrow
1327 2012-01-17 19:38:04 <amiller> they have more people in there than in #python
1328 2012-01-17 19:38:05 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think thats good news.
1329 2012-01-17 19:38:21 <gmaxwell> amiller: takes lots of people to write my xmonad configurations for me.
1330 2012-01-17 19:38:25 <amiller> and i know way more people who know of python or have used, i don't think i've ever actually met a haskeller
1331 2012-01-17 19:38:35 <amiller> gmaxwell, what, are you 'the architect'
1332 2012-01-17 19:38:35 <devrandom> luke-jr: I'm off for the rest of the day...
1333 2012-01-17 19:38:57 <gmaxwell> Indubitably.
1334 2012-01-17 19:38:58 <amiller> how many of your displays does 'amiller' stretch across
1335 2012-01-17 19:39:11 <sipa> amiller: you are the remainder of an equation inherent to the programming of the matrix
1336 2012-01-17 19:39:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: damn, shouldn't have used numerical methods for the matrix.
1337 2012-01-17 19:39:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: oh but it's all IEEE 754, perfectly correct
1338 2012-01-17 19:39:54 <sipa> ;)
1339 2012-01-17 19:40:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: I love it when I realize my algorithim needs 400 bits of precision in order to be stable.
1340 2012-01-17 19:40:48 <gmaxwell> "time for a new algorithim"
1341 2012-01-17 19:40:49 <sipa> devrandom: hate to ask again, but where do i find instructions for doing gitian builds of bitcoin?
1342 2012-01-17 19:41:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: in that case, you may be better off using exact fractions :)
1343 2012-01-17 19:41:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: linked from the gitian main page.
1344 2012-01-17 19:41:26 <copumpkin> amiller: I think it's more that many people feel like knowing haskell would make them cool/smarter but most just idle hoping to pick something up, and don't actually participate very actively
1345 2012-01-17 19:41:40 <copumpkin> (or at all)
1346 2012-01-17 19:41:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, but doing exact math requires different tools, a pain once you've started. :(
1347 2012-01-17 19:42:19 <copumpkin> doing math on the reals in a proof system is a real pain in the ass
1348 2012-01-17 19:42:32 <copumpkin> I hope it'll get a little more pleasant once epigram 2 comes along
1349 2012-01-17 19:42:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: dang, thanks :)
1350 2012-01-17 19:43:16 <amiller> is there any framework in which you can formalize cryptography?
1351 2012-01-17 19:43:20 <amiller> do you know of one?
1352 2012-01-17 19:43:33 <amiller> i've head of Cryptol but i don't think that really counts
1353 2012-01-17 19:43:58 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1354 2012-01-17 19:44:00 <amiller> i would love to make a Coq proof of the security bits of diffie hellman or something but i have no idea how i would begin
1355 2012-01-17 19:44:11 <amiller> there IS a fair amount of number / ring / field theory in coq's standard lib
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1357 2012-01-17 19:44:30 Nicksasa has joined
1358 2012-01-17 19:45:25 <gmaxwell> amiller: such proofs can usually only be constructed using varrious assumptions. E.g. lots of cryptosystems have proofs under the random oracle model. .. and they usually prove the general construction rather than the full software.
1359 2012-01-17 19:45:44 <copumpkin> I'd be quite satisfied with that
1360 2012-01-17 19:45:47 iocor has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
1361 2012-01-17 19:45:54 <amiller> http://www.msr-inria.inria.fr/projects/sec/certicrypt/index.html CertiCrypt
1362 2012-01-17 19:46:02 <copumpkin> especially since in coq or agda, a proof about the general construction would require implementing it
1363 2012-01-17 19:46:48 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: e.g. you can prove varrious cryptosystems if you take H() to be a real random oracle, but you can't make the proof work if it's a real hash function.
1364 2012-01-17 19:47:24 <gmaxwell> (and hash functions aren't random oracles, but we hope they are close enough)
1365 2012-01-17 19:47:58 <amiller> here's a paper on a coq formalization of Random Oracle Model http://www-sop.inria.fr/everest/Sabrina.Tarento/Papers/ROM/main.pdf seems like there were enough other things to look at too
1366 2012-01-17 19:48:02 <amiller> that's pretty cool.
1367 2012-01-17 19:48:18 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: yeah
1368 2012-01-17 19:48:45 <amiller> is it easy to hire haskellers
1369 2012-01-17 19:48:58 <amiller> i can't tell if they're bored or busy
1370 2012-01-17 19:49:02 <copumpkin> lol
1371 2012-01-17 19:49:08 <copumpkin> depends on the amount of money offered
1372 2012-01-17 19:49:18 <copumpkin> honestly, I probably wouldn't hire most of the #haskell channel
1373 2012-01-17 19:49:24 <copumpkin> there are a few people I'd really want
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1378 2012-01-17 19:53:43 <luke-jr> amiller: it's hard to find someone good at Perl that needs work :P
1379 2012-01-17 19:54:31 <gmaxwell> Not many people out there who speak in tongues.
1380 2012-01-17 19:54:59 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: rather, they've all got work :P
1381 2012-01-17 19:55:04 <amiller> Perl has fewer idlers in their channel than haskell, and even though I think of Perl as esoteric too, I've met many people who've claimed to use it and could name a few things they'd think it's best for
1382 2012-01-17 19:55:27 rdponticelli has joined
1383 2012-01-17 19:55:40 <amiller> i'm still drawn to the conspiracy theory that someone is mysteriously keeping all the haskell people occupied with something
1384 2012-01-17 19:55:43 <sipa> practical extraction and reporting language
1385 2012-01-17 19:55:46 <sipa> says it all :)
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1387 2012-01-17 19:56:02 <amiller> you know the episode of Pete and Pete where everyone in the wood shop is building part of something but they don't know what it is
1388 2012-01-17 19:56:07 <amiller> and it turns out to be an air conditioner
1389 2012-01-17 19:56:10 <copumpkin> amiller: well, most of us are probably gainfully employed, but doing other things
1390 2012-01-17 19:56:18 <copumpkin> amiller: I've actually been writing a lot of haskell for my job recently
1391 2012-01-17 19:56:21 <copumpkin> but usually it's scala
1392 2012-01-17 19:56:50 <luke-jr> amiller: everyone active in #Perl is a jerk probably
1393 2012-01-17 19:58:28 <amiller> https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=haskell%20and%20high%20frequency%20trading
1394 2012-01-17 19:58:46 <amiller> ugh whats the google labs tool for term correlation
1395 2012-01-17 19:59:29 <amiller> oh well
1396 2012-01-17 19:59:50 <copumpkin> amiller: http://www.tsurucapital.com/
1397 2012-01-17 20:00:02 <copumpkin> amiller: sc.com has a fairly large haskell team
1398 2012-01-17 20:02:22 <amiller> lol "Do you love Haskell? Do you like problem solving and finding elegant solutions? Are you not opposed to making money?"
1399 2012-01-17 20:02:56 <sipa> you never know wether people have moral objections to that
1400 2012-01-17 20:06:37 <amiller> well it means that many fewer people working on decentralized/open systems of some kind
1401 2012-01-17 20:07:21 <copumpkin> yep
1402 2012-01-17 20:07:30 <copumpkin> many people object to finance because they think it's a misallocation of smart people
1403 2012-01-17 20:08:06 <amiller> i think that's a very sensible way to put it
1404 2012-01-17 20:08:21 <copumpkin> I think it's a reasonable objection
1405 2012-01-17 20:08:39 <amiller> it's a good thing bitcoin's so much fun
1406 2012-01-17 20:08:55 <luke-jr> http://176.9.18.83:5984/buddy-clock/_design/site/_list/show/by_tz <-- cute toy
1407 2012-01-17 20:09:13 <helo> it's a shame our computers get to have most of the fun tho :(
1408 2012-01-17 20:09:18 <copumpkin> amiller: yep :)
1409 2012-01-17 20:09:34 <copumpkin> luke-jr: cute
1410 2012-01-17 20:09:40 <amiller> "are you all gonna sit there and reconfigure gmaxwell's xmonad display the rest of your lives, or are you going to start building your own version of money"
1411 2012-01-17 20:09:47 <copumpkin> lol
1412 2012-01-17 20:09:54 <amiller> rofl
1413 2012-01-17 20:10:01 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: do you pay your xmonad script configuration programmers well?
1414 2012-01-17 20:11:57 <amiller> every time gmaxwell adjusts his resolution, a tea futures market in hong kong has to shut down for the day
1415 2012-01-17 20:12:15 <sipa> it is derogatory to call an xmonad config file a script
1416 2012-01-17 20:12:44 <copumpkin> lol
1417 2012-01-17 20:12:50 <noagendamarket> luke-jr are you running for president ?
1418 2012-01-17 20:13:01 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: I'm not a valid candidate.
1419 2012-01-17 20:13:07 <copumpkin> luke-jr: why not?
1420 2012-01-17 20:13:33 * copumpkin high-fives americans who aren't eligible for presidency
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1425 2012-01-17 20:14:56 <luke-jr> copumpkin: age, for starters
1426 2012-01-17 20:15:02 <copumpkin> oh, fair enough
1427 2012-01-17 20:15:20 <sipa> is there a minimum age to be eligable?
1428 2012-01-17 20:15:25 <copumpkin> 35 I think
1429 2012-01-17 20:15:28 <copumpkin> or something like that
1430 2012-01-17 20:16:22 TD has joined
1431 2012-01-17 20:21:16 <amiller> http://www.icfpconference.org/icfp2011/ those sites you mentioned are all sponsors of the big ICFP conference
1432 2012-01-17 20:21:32 <amiller> jane street and credit suisse are others
1433 2012-01-17 20:22:29 <amiller> i wonder why microsoft research is interested. i bet it's localized to microsoft research inria
1434 2012-01-17 20:22:40 <copumpkin> no
1435 2012-01-17 20:22:48 <copumpkin> most of the GHC development happens at MSR
1436 2012-01-17 20:22:58 <amiller> hm. i wasn't aware
1437 2012-01-17 20:23:00 <copumpkin> MSR has probably put more money into haskell than anyone else
1438 2012-01-17 20:23:22 <copumpkin> simon peyton jones and marlow are both full-time researchers there whose job is to write GHC
1439 2012-01-17 20:23:22 <sipa> isn't SPJ payed by MSR?
1440 2012-01-17 20:23:31 <copumpkin> yeah
1441 2012-01-17 20:23:40 <copumpkin> well, their job is to do research that they're good at
1442 2012-01-17 20:23:45 <copumpkin> which happens to be haskell and related things :)
1443 2012-01-17 20:23:54 <TD> copumpkin: heya, did you manage to do an ecdsa threshold sig?
1444 2012-01-17 20:23:56 <TD> or did i misunderstand
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1446 2012-01-17 20:24:04 <copumpkin> TD: nope, don't think so :) never tried
1447 2012-01-17 20:24:08 <TD> ok
1448 2012-01-17 20:24:14 <roconnor> amiller: I'm not aware of any Haskell research at inria
1449 2012-01-17 20:24:18 <roconnor> amiller: they like ocaml there
1450 2012-01-17 20:24:27 <amiller> copumpkin, you did the group signature scheme for anonysense though?
1451 2012-01-17 20:24:27 <copumpkin> TD: I just played with pairing-based group sigs
1452 2012-01-17 20:24:34 <copumpkin> amiller: oh I didn't write one myself
1453 2012-01-17 20:24:36 <TD> ecdsa sigs?
1454 2012-01-17 20:24:37 <amiller> how is that different than a threshold signature, aren't they effectively the same
1455 2012-01-17 20:24:38 <TD> or rsa
1456 2012-01-17 20:24:39 <copumpkin> I used the pbc_sig  thing
1457 2012-01-17 20:24:45 <copumpkin> TD: neither
1458 2012-01-17 20:25:08 <roconnor> what's a threshold signature?
1459 2012-01-17 20:25:17 <copumpkin> amiller: a threshold signature requires that n people in a group sign something for the signature to be valid, I think
1460 2012-01-17 20:25:32 <copumpkin> amiller: a group signature lets people within the group each anonymously sign something without you being able to know which did it
1461 2012-01-17 20:25:41 <copumpkin> and the group manager can optionally deanonymize them
1462 2012-01-17 20:25:46 <amiller> hm
1463 2012-01-17 20:25:48 <roconnor> like a ring signature?
1464 2012-01-17 20:25:54 <copumpkin> very similar
1465 2012-01-17 20:26:05 <roconnor> oh, there is no group manager in a ring signature.
1466 2012-01-17 20:26:13 <copumpkin> yeah
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1468 2012-01-17 20:27:12 <amiller> so the relationship between ecdsa and pbc
1469 2012-01-17 20:27:24 <amiller> isn't the pbc library a generalization of elliptic curves
1470 2012-01-17 20:27:25 <roconnor> what is pbc?
1471 2012-01-17 20:27:29 <amiller> like you get a pairing of elliptic curves?
1472 2012-01-17 20:27:52 <amiller> pairing based cryptography, it's fully homomorphic rather than merely partially homomorphic (like elgamal and such)
1473 2012-01-17 20:28:01 <amiller> there's a Stanford PBC library http://crypto.stanford.edu/pbc/
1474 2012-01-17 20:28:12 <copumpkin> it's something I've been wanting to play with in haskell for a while
1475 2012-01-17 20:28:18 <copumpkin> but there are so many other awesome projects to play with
1476 2012-01-17 20:28:26 <amiller> copumpkin used part of it in an anonymous sensing project so i think the rest of us are trying to figure out how far he got and how it worked
1477 2012-01-17 20:28:29 <roconnor> amiller: does it use lattice ideals?
1478 2012-01-17 20:28:48 <amiller> i believe it is an alternative to the lattice-based fully homomorphic structure
1479 2012-01-17 20:28:58 <copumpkin> amiller: I'm not actually too sure, since back at the time I was playing with this I didn't understnad half the math in it
1480 2012-01-17 20:29:09 <copumpkin> amiller: my math obsession came in the past couple of years :)
1481 2012-01-17 20:29:21 <amiller> lattice ideals are to pairing crpyto what RSA is to ECDSA
1482 2012-01-17 20:29:26 <amiller> is my thought.
1483 2012-01-17 20:29:40 <copumpkin> I only did pbc_sig as a user who knew the security properties I desired, but otherwise wasn't too aware of the math behind them
1484 2012-01-17 20:29:43 <roconnor> amiller: thanks
1485 2012-01-17 20:30:10 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: ping?
1486 2012-01-17 20:30:12 <amiller> copumpkin, fair enough, i know just what you mean :p
1487 2012-01-17 20:30:29 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: what's up?
1488 2012-01-17 20:30:34 <copumpkin> amiller: I'd like to go back to it now that I know a lot more, but so much other stuff :)
1489 2012-01-17 20:30:50 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: devrandom reported Linux matched, and Win32 bitcoind matched, but not Win32 Bitcoin-Qt
1490 2012-01-17 20:31:06 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: can we write that off as non-deterministic Qt issues?
1491 2012-01-17 20:31:39 <sipa> i'm setting up gitian
1492 2012-01-17 20:31:48 <sipa> i can do a build too, if nc
1493 2012-01-17 20:31:55 <sipa> if necessary, with
1494 2012-01-17 20:31:59 <sipa> in 1-2 hours
1495 2012-01-17 20:32:21 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: grumble grumble....
1496 2012-01-17 20:32:26 <luke-jr> (I'm also downloading devrandom's binaries to do a disassembly compare)
1497 2012-01-17 20:32:50 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: cool, if you can find the source of the inconsistency I'll feel a lot better about saying sure, release away....
1498 2012-01-17 20:35:40 <luke-jr> ugh, the memory positions are ALL different or smth
1499 2012-01-17 20:35:56 <TD> memory positions?
1500 2012-01-17 20:36:04 <roconnor> it's a trap!
1501 2012-01-17 20:36:25 <copumpkin> looks like new scientist just published an article on bitcoin
1502 2012-01-17 20:36:30 <sipa> luke-jr: different order of objects, or a fixes shift?
1503 2012-01-17 20:36:38 <copumpkin> well, on using the bitcoin network for timestamping
1504 2012-01-17 20:36:42 <copumpkin> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328476.500-bitcoin-online-currency-gets-new-job-in-web-security.html
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1506 2012-01-17 20:37:12 <luke-jr> sipa: looks fixed-shift from a quick glance
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1510 2012-01-17 20:38:39 <luke-jr> SizeOfCode is also different
1511 2012-01-17 20:38:47 <luke-jr> sipa: let's see if your build matches one
1512 2012-01-17 20:39:15 <sipa> i'm still building the base image, so it'll take some more time
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1514 2012-01-17 20:49:14 <sipa> luke-jr: where is the repository?
1515 2012-01-17 20:52:03 <sipa> got it
1516 2012-01-17 20:53:48 <luke-jr> …k
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1531 2012-01-17 21:29:42 <gavinandresen> Yay, very productive day today:  I got a good first-cut at a transaction fuzzer implemented:  https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/tree/fuzzer
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1533 2012-01-17 21:30:35 <sipa> i'm supposed to run gitian on qt-win32.yml and boost-win32.yml first, before starting gitian-win32.yml?
1534 2012-01-17 21:30:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: I wrote it in a README...
1535 2012-01-17 21:31:25 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, contrib/gitian-descriptors/README should tell you what to do
1536 2012-01-17 21:32:00 <sipa> yes, i'm following that
1537 2012-01-17 21:32:08 <BlueMatt> I thought it was doc/release-process.txt that explained it?
1538 2012-01-17 21:32:10 <sipa> but it doesn't mention win32 builds at all
1539 2012-01-17 21:32:18 <BlueMatt> anyway, yea run qt-win32 and boost-win32 and copy the results to input/
1540 2012-01-17 21:32:23 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt is probably right
1541 2012-01-17 21:32:47 <BlueMatt> (gitian will clear the results as the first thing in bin/gbuild so copy the zip first)
1542 2012-01-17 21:33:12 <BlueMatt> (oh and I think there are determinism problems in those, so you might just grab a copy that gavin built
1543 2012-01-17 21:33:14 <BlueMatt> )
1544 2012-01-17 21:33:35 <gavinandresen> sipa: http://skypaint.com/bitcoin/
1545 2012-01-17 21:33:40 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1546 2012-01-17 21:33:49 <sipa> what's the point of gitian if i need to download pre-built things?
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1551 2012-01-17 21:34:41 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: transaction fuzzer as in?
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1553 2012-01-17 21:35:13 <BlueMatt> oh
1554 2012-01-17 21:35:15 <BlueMatt> nice
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1556 2012-01-17 21:36:21 <gavinandresen> I think it already found a bug; transactions with bad signatures are stored as orphans, when they should just be dropped.
1557 2012-01-17 21:36:43 <BlueMatt> nice, I like the emphasis on testing :)
1558 2012-01-17 21:37:15 <gavinandresen> Tomorrow my task will be to write a bunch of /P2SH/ stress tests using it
1559 2012-01-17 21:37:50 <BlueMatt> nice
1560 2012-01-17 21:38:19 <gavinandresen> Maybe roconnor will volunteer to come up with a way of generating "random but valid scriptSigs/scriptPubKeys"
1561 2012-01-17 21:38:57 osmosis has joined
1562 2012-01-17 21:39:00 <gavinandresen> (interesting problem I'm tempted to tackle myself because it'd be kinda fun....)
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1565 2012-01-17 21:49:51 <luke-jr> sipa: I asked the same thing. I guess it's a "work in progress" to that extent
1566 2012-01-17 21:49:59 <luke-jr> sipa: at least it verifies the Bitcoin code itself hasn't been fudged
1567 2012-01-17 21:51:00 <BlueMatt> sipa: it just means no one has yet had time to work on it...
1568 2012-01-17 21:51:11 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it would be handy to be able to easily tell which parts of master are BIP16-specific so I can implement CSV fully
1569 2012-01-17 21:51:45 <gavinandresen> comma separated value?  what?
1570 2012-01-17 21:52:40 <sipa> CHV, you mean?
1571 2012-01-17 21:52:43 <luke-jr> sipa: yeah, that
1572 2012-01-17 21:52:45 <luke-jr> <.<
1573 2012-01-17 21:52:53 <sipa> know thy own proposal
1574 2012-01-17 21:53:05 <luke-jr> >_<
1575 2012-01-17 21:56:09 Joric has joined
1576 2012-01-17 21:57:29 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen, I just looked at the slides you linked... I noticed you were creating a chart showing block chaining... if you want you can use a diagram I made:  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1139081/BitcoinShare/BlockchainFlowChart.png
1577 2012-01-17 21:57:55 <etotheipi_> I made that diagram for a presentation I ended up never giving... I don't know if it's something that you could use, but I'm not using it
1578 2012-01-17 21:58:06 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: cool, thanks, I'll squirrel it away
1579 2012-01-17 21:58:08 <etotheipi_> I'll give you Inkscape .svg file, if you want to use/modify it
1580 2012-01-17 21:59:09 <etotheipi_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1139081/BitcoinShare/BitcoinObjs.svg  It could probably use some better shapes, but that's easy if you're familiar with inkscape
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1585 2012-01-17 22:06:55 <sipa> 86368b494e8c601621ee7d6424b69e1be1eefe5a375b1da767a0c8eb556ece60  bitcoin-qt.exe
1586 2012-01-17 22:07:42 XX01XX has joined
1587 2012-01-17 22:10:05 <luke-jr> sipa: matches devrandom's
1588 2012-01-17 22:10:21 <luke-jr> I'll upload devrandom's 0.5.2 as final…
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1590 2012-01-17 22:10:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: can you push the full sig (ie all the files)
1591 2012-01-17 22:11:30 <BlueMatt> to the repo
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1594 2012-01-17 22:15:16 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: you're not at all troubled by introducing an opcode that behaves differently depending on whether it is in the scriptSig or the scriptPubKey?  That seems at least as... icky... to me as the /P2SH/ solution
1595 2012-01-17 22:15:56 agricocb has joined
1596 2012-01-17 22:15:58 <BlueMatt> more
1597 2012-01-17 22:16:06 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it doesn't behave significantly different, though it might be improvable.
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1600 2012-01-17 22:16:16 <luke-jr> seems to me more like a 'perfect vs good' thing
1601 2012-01-17 22:17:00 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: well, knock yourself out, but I've already got commitments to implement /P2SH/ from a majority of pool hashing power
1602 2012-01-17 22:18:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: to what repo?
1603 2012-01-17 22:18:53 <BlueMatt> why is it now /P2SH/ instead of P2SH?
1604 2012-01-17 22:18:58 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: Tycho is opposed; even if he won't be put in a position to seem like he's using his power to force a decision, I don't think it's unfair to expect that he will reject the vote if there are other miners on the same side
1605 2012-01-17 22:19:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs
1606 2012-01-17 22:19:04 <BlueMatt> iirc
1607 2012-01-17 22:19:07 <Joric> check out 'compex math problems' from the sitcom http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5928/goodwifeproblems2.jpg it's beautiful
1608 2012-01-17 22:19:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: because P2SH is the general concept, meaning OP_EVAL, BIP16, and CHV
1609 2012-01-17 22:19:33 <BlueMatt> Joric: heh, I like that its too hard to explain hashing...
1610 2012-01-17 22:19:38 <sipa> luke-jr: i.e. BIP13
1611 2012-01-17 22:19:51 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: mmm, fair enough
1612 2012-01-17 22:22:01 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1613 2012-01-17 22:22:08 <sipa> BlueMatt: pushed
1614 2012-01-17 22:22:15 <BlueMatt> thanks
1615 2012-01-17 22:23:41 <sipa> damn, i missed
1616 2012-01-17 22:23:46 <nanotube> Joric: lol
1617 2012-01-17 22:23:50 <BlueMatt> sipa: can you sign with bin/gsign the way doc/release-process.txt shows and push that? (gitian wont care, just copy the results you previously made to built/out/)
1618 2012-01-17 22:24:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: i know, i just pushed the wrong thing
1619 2012-01-17 22:24:35 <BlueMatt> mmm
1620 2012-01-17 22:24:42 <sipa> but where to place the result for win32?
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1622 2012-01-17 22:25:34 <BlueMatt> mkdir 0.5.2-win32
1623 2012-01-17 22:25:42 <BlueMatt> mkdir 0.5.2-win32/sipa
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1627 2012-01-17 22:28:39 <luke-jr> where did gavin go? -.-
1628 2012-01-17 22:28:47 <BlueMatt> its 5, gavin gets off at 5
1629 2012-01-17 22:28:52 <alexwaters1> he saw me and bounced
1630 2012-01-17 22:29:05 <alexwaters1> jk
1631 2012-01-17 22:29:10 <BlueMatt> I wasnt joking though
1632 2012-01-17 22:29:20 <BlueMatt> he actually gets off within a couple minutes of 5 most every day...
1633 2012-01-17 22:30:19 <luke-jr> sigh
1634 2012-01-17 22:30:23 <luke-jr> sipa: wanna upload 0.5.2 for us? :P
1635 2012-01-17 22:30:25 <sipa> hmmm my gitian-desc.yml has a different checksum than devrandom's
1636 2012-01-17 22:30:32 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoin-0.5.2/ has the final files
1637 2012-01-17 22:30:37 <BlueMatt> iirc only jgarzik and gavin can
1638 2012-01-17 22:30:45 <luke-jr> oh right, nanotube it was
1639 2012-01-17 22:30:46 <sipa> i don't have permission, indeed
1640 2012-01-17 22:30:47 * luke-jr pings nanotube
1641 2012-01-17 22:31:07 <alexwaters1> anyone looking for full-time python work in NYC?
1642 2012-01-17 22:31:23 <alexwaters1> it pays well, and the company is cool (and likes bitcoin)
1643 2012-01-17 22:31:52 <alexwaters1> just throwing it out there, trying to get some like minded people at this company....
1644 2012-01-17 22:32:00 <luke-jr> NYC = crap :P
1645 2012-01-17 22:32:11 <alexwaters1> psssh, we have good Pizza
1646 2012-01-17 22:33:30 alexwaters1 has quit (Changing host)
1647 2012-01-17 22:33:30 alexwaters1 has joined
1648 2012-01-17 22:35:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: better?
1649 2012-01-17 22:35:58 <BlueMatt> looks good, thanks
1650 2012-01-17 22:41:44 denisx has joined
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1654 2012-01-17 22:49:39 TD_ is now known as TD
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1663 2012-01-17 23:14:03 <doublec> genjix has created a closed source alt currency?
1664 2012-01-17 23:14:15 ovidiusoft has joined
1665 2012-01-17 23:14:59 <MC1984> eh
1666 2012-01-17 23:15:02 <doublec> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=59907.msg696538#msg696538
1667 2012-01-17 23:16:28 <BlueMatt> from what I read they were hired to help them make a closed-source currency and they did
1668 2012-01-17 23:16:57 <luke-jr> never fear, luke-jr is here!
1669 2012-01-17 23:16:58 <luke-jr> <.<
1670 2012-01-17 23:16:59 Nicksasa has joined
1671 2012-01-17 23:17:16 <BlueMatt> for a startup looking for cash, I dont blame them
1672 2012-01-17 23:17:25 somuchwin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1673 2012-01-17 23:17:28 <BlueMatt> in fact, I wouldnt blame them if they were google and had more money than they knew what to do with
1674 2012-01-17 23:18:46 somuchwin has joined
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1676 2012-01-17 23:25:10 <Latoshi> ;;ticker --last
1677 2012-01-17 23:25:11 <gribble> 5.61999
1678 2012-01-17 23:25:48 <Latoshi> it went down all the way to 4.64
1679 2012-01-17 23:25:50 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1680 2012-01-17 23:26:06 <Latoshi> oh wait wrong channel
1681 2012-01-17 23:26:57 <MC1984> heavy day for bitcoin
1682 2012-01-17 23:27:51 <Latoshi> interesting
1683 2012-01-17 23:28:19 <Latoshi> the good wife has an epsiode on bitcoin makes bitcoin go down like 25%?
1684 2012-01-17 23:29:07 <diki> What can I use to import private keys in latest wallets?
1685 2012-01-17 23:29:16 agricocb has joined
1686 2012-01-17 23:29:19 <Joric> Latoshi, it made satoshi angry
1687 2012-01-17 23:29:19 <diki> Pywallet doesnt seem to support the newer bdb
1688 2012-01-17 23:29:38 <Joric> diki, mtgox does support private key importing now
1689 2012-01-17 23:30:10 kobier has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1690 2012-01-17 23:30:10 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1691 2012-01-17 23:30:29 <Joric> also sorry for pywallet looks like jackjack-jj is even lazier than me
1692 2012-01-17 23:30:38 kobier has joined
1693 2012-01-17 23:30:58 <diki> Joric:I never said anything about mtgox
1694 2012-01-17 23:31:26 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1695 2012-01-17 23:31:28 <Joric> i did
1696 2012-01-17 23:31:47 <diki> Well I am looking to import a private key in my wallet which is on MY computer
1697 2012-01-17 23:32:15 <etotheipi_> diki, if you got 4GB of RAM you could try Armory :)
1698 2012-01-17 23:32:22 <diki> I have 5
1699 2012-01-17 23:32:53 <diki> but if an app is going to be using that much memory, no thanks
1700 2012-01-17 23:32:57 <etotheipi_> the memory requirements are ludicrous (will be scaled down on the next release), but for now it's very usable
1701 2012-01-17 23:33:00 <diki> I cannot believe no app exists to import keys
1702 2012-01-17 23:33:32 <BlueMatt> Latoshi: seriously, can you not get a new nick?
1703 2012-01-17 23:33:34 <diki> App, using reasonable amounts of memory
1704 2012-01-17 23:33:54 <Joric> lol it's written on python
1705 2012-01-17 23:33:59 <etotheipi_> diki, it's only because Armory currently holds the blockchain in memory,   just check it out and make your own decision https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56424 (I really need more testers, anyway)
1706 2012-01-17 23:34:02 <Joric> 15k lines of python
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1708 2012-01-17 23:34:12 nhodges has joined
1709 2012-01-17 23:34:26 <MC1984> ok what
1710 2012-01-17 23:34:27 <MC1984> the fuck
1711 2012-01-17 23:34:29 <etotheipi_> the key importing is heavenly :)
1712 2012-01-17 23:34:29 <MC1984> is realcoin
1713 2012-01-17 23:34:51 <Latoshi> BlueMatt, what? is it against the rules to use Latoshi as my nick?
1714 2012-01-17 23:35:32 <diki> etotheipi_:are you going to be selling it?
1715 2012-01-17 23:35:41 <etotheipi_> no
1716 2012-01-17 23:35:44 <etotheipi_> it's open source
1717 2012-01-17 23:35:47 <BlueMatt> no, but its kinda annoying, also its hard enough to keep track of all the people that come through here, when you start changing nicks its even harder...
1718 2012-01-17 23:35:55 <etotheipi_> I might license it to companies if they want to use it... but I plan to keep it free
1719 2012-01-17 23:36:19 Latoshi is now known as TuxBlackEdo
1720 2012-01-17 23:36:23 <sipa> there is no "la" in japanese, by the way :)
1721 2012-01-17 23:36:39 <BlueMatt> TuxBlackEdo: thanks man
1722 2012-01-17 23:36:44 <TuxBlackEdo> on the request of BlueMatt i am back to my regular nick x_x
1723 2012-01-17 23:36:58 DaQatz has joined
1724 2012-01-17 23:38:00 <Joric> comeon add importprivkey already i thought it's in 0.5.2
1725 2012-01-17 23:38:18 <sipa> it will be n 0.6
1726 2012-01-17 23:38:26 <sipa> 0.5.2 is a bugfix release
1727 2012-01-17 23:38:27 <TuxBlackEdo> BlueMatt, I am not mad, I just wanted to be a bit more dramatic :)
1728 2012-01-17 23:38:31 <etotheipi_> when is 0.6 getting released?
1729 2012-01-17 23:38:37 <sipa> when it is ready :)
1730 2012-01-17 23:38:41 ovidiusoft has joined
1731 2012-01-17 23:38:45 <sipa> (i hope soon)
1732 2012-01-17 23:38:46 <etotheipi_> just lookign for an order of magnitude
1733 2012-01-17 23:38:54 <sipa> a few weeks, i suppose
1734 2012-01-17 23:38:57 <BlueMatt> TuxBlackEdo: not sure how /nick satoshi makes things more dramatic...
1735 2012-01-17 23:39:24 <TuxBlackEdo> BlueMatt, I meant changing my nickname back to what it was before
1736 2012-01-17 23:39:32 <BlueMatt> oh, meh
1737 2012-01-17 23:39:50 <TuxBlackEdo> meh indeed
1738 2012-01-17 23:40:01 <CIA-76> bitcoin: p2k * r0ee0261e1121 ecoinpool/apps/ecoinpool/src/mysql_sharelogger.erl: Bugfix http://tinyurl.com/6rhh6jo
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1746 2012-01-17 23:52:55 <etotheipi_> have miners started doing something differently, recently with respect to zero-fee transactions?
1747 2012-01-17 23:53:06 eldentyrell has joined
1748 2012-01-17 23:53:07 <etotheipi_> I've never had a problem, now I've sent two such transactions and they appear stuck
1749 2012-01-17 23:53:21 <etotheipi_> one was from the vanilla Satoshi client, which didn't warn me about needing a fee
1750 2012-01-17 23:53:25 randomugy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1751 2012-01-17 23:53:32 <sipa> how long has it been?
1752 2012-01-17 23:53:38 <etotheipi_> 24 hours for the first one
1753 2012-01-17 23:53:56 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: does the first one spend the change from the second, and the first one violates the normal fee rules?
1754 2012-01-17 23:53:58 <etotheipi_> second one I sent from Armory, which also computed no fee necessary
1755 2012-01-17 23:54:20 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: TX id?
1756 2012-01-17 23:54:26 <etotheipi_> no, the two transactions were completely unrelated
1757 2012-01-17 23:54:49 pickett has joined
1758 2012-01-17 23:54:52 <etotheipi_> I've got the -8.26 ledger entry in the satoshi client, so it thinks it sent it
1759 2012-01-17 23:54:54 <etotheipi_> hold on
1760 2012-01-17 23:55:08 <gmaxwell> Yes, I'm asking to see if my nodes accepted it.
1761 2012-01-17 23:55:12 <etotheipi_> the most recent one:  bc43d6993b358f513c5e6f7a9b6b10d8fb4d744404df41b8c0c6cb943c9ad181
1762 2012-01-17 23:55:14 <gmaxwell> (or if it even got to them)
1763 2012-01-17 23:55:31 <etotheipi_> is there a way to get the txid out of the satoshi client?
1764 2012-01-17 23:55:37 <gmaxwell> Never made it to the three nodes I just tested.
1765 2012-01-17 23:56:02 <etotheipi_> 1EFTUhNF3HbaWtqm63UtN5oQB35zTXpq8Z is the address I sent to yesterday which Satoshi client accepted
1766 2012-01-17 23:56:03 <BlueMatt> etotheipi_: on ^HEAD there is
1767 2012-01-17 23:56:17 <etotheipi_> blockchain.info also does not have either of these txs
1768 2012-01-17 23:56:34 <gmaxwell> can you check your reference node's debug log to see if it accepted bc43d69 ?
1769 2012-01-17 23:56:57 <gmaxwell> (just search for that fragment of the txn id in the file)
1770 2012-01-17 23:56:59 <etotheipi_> good idea
1771 2012-01-17 23:57:01 <etotheipi_> hold on
1772 2012-01-17 23:57:22 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1773 2012-01-17 23:57:27 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Say What?)
1774 2012-01-17 23:58:15 <etotheipi_> oops, I gave you the LE hash, here's BE: 81d19a3c94cbc6c0b841df0444744dfbd8106b9b7a6f5e3c518f353b99d643bc
1775 2012-01-17 23:58:39 <gmaxwell> Nope. did your node accept it?
1776 2012-01-17 23:58:57 <etotheipi_> I don't see it in the log
1777 2012-01-17 23:59:13 <gmaxwell> you really should see a sequence like:
1778 2012-01-17 23:59:13 <gmaxwell> 01/12/12 18:59:07 sending getdata: tx 96e3b43c24b54f3a947d
1779 2012-01-17 23:59:13 <gmaxwell> 01/12/12 18:59:08 askfor tx 96e3b43c24b54f3a947d   1326394747000000
1780 2012-01-17 23:59:13 <gmaxwell> 01/12/12 18:59:08 AcceptToMemoryPool(): accepted 96e3b43c24