1 2012-01-22 00:00:08 <Eliel> roconnor: yeah, bitcoin is very much not an academic only project :)
   2 2012-01-22 00:00:09 <a_meteorite> etotheipi_: put in a bank vault, and bam!
   3 2012-01-22 00:00:10 <etotheipi_> at least you can visually verify the paper backup
   4 2012-01-22 00:00:34 gruez has joined
   5 2012-01-22 00:00:36 <etotheipi_> plus paper is cheaper than USB keys (though they're both pretty cheap :))
   6 2012-01-22 00:00:43 <roconnor> what is sweeping?
   7 2012-01-22 00:00:57 <sipa> roconnor: import + send to new address
   8 2012-01-22 00:01:07 <roconnor> what is import?
   9 2012-01-22 00:01:20 <sipa> add private key, and transactions spending to it
  10 2012-01-22 00:01:23 <etotheipi_> sweeping scans the blockchain, finds all the unspent outputs, and then sends them to a new address
  11 2012-01-22 00:01:45 <etotheipi_> importing actually adopts the private key to you wallet so you can continue to use it
  12 2012-01-22 00:02:03 <etotheipi_> there was an interesting discussion about this on the forums, because I didn't realize at first the security risks involved with importing
  13 2012-01-22 00:02:07 <roconnor> etotheipi_: how does address generation work? random, or the generated thing?
  14 2012-01-22 00:02:13 <etotheipi_> deterministic
  15 2012-01-22 00:02:16 <roconnor> :)
  16 2012-01-22 00:02:23 <a_meteorite> so basically taking funds from another wallet? does the imported private key "control" those "old" bitcoins still?
  17 2012-01-22 00:02:36 <sipa> a_meteorite: no
  18 2012-01-22 00:02:46 <sipa> they've moved on
  19 2012-01-22 00:02:49 <a_meteorite> Ah
  20 2012-01-22 00:02:58 <etotheipi_> the security risk is this... someone gives you a private key with funds as a way of payment.  But you import not sweep
  21 2012-01-22 00:03:01 gruez_ has joined
  22 2012-01-22 00:03:18 <etotheipi_> then later, they say hey, I'll buy somethign from you for 100 BTC... they send the 100 BTC to that address which they actually have the private key for
  23 2012-01-22 00:03:33 <etotheipi_> but it shows up in your wallet as your own
  24 2012-01-22 00:03:59 <sipa> payment via private key exchange bypasses the trust issue that bitcoin tries to solve
  25 2012-01-22 00:04:16 <etotheipi_> sipa, I don't approve of it, but there's lots of reasons
  26 2012-01-22 00:04:20 <a_meteorite> Yeah I see it more of a way as migrating old wallets to one wallet
  27 2012-01-22 00:04:21 <etotheipi_> how about casascius bitcoins?
  28 2012-01-22 00:04:26 <sipa> sure it is useful
  29 2012-01-22 00:04:31 <etotheipi_> someone else obviously has the private key
  30 2012-01-22 00:04:42 * sipa has a casascius coin
  31 2012-01-22 00:04:59 <etotheipi_> I guess the point is... regardless of how you got it... if you aren't sure whether someone else has the private key, just sweep it
  32 2012-01-22 00:05:12 <etotheipi_> untrusted keys:  sweep,  trusted keys: import
  33 2012-01-22 00:05:18 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  34 2012-01-22 00:05:37 <sipa> no
  35 2012-01-22 00:05:38 gruez has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  36 2012-01-22 00:05:51 <sipa> untrusted keys: don't use   trusted keys: sweep   own keys: import
  37 2012-01-22 00:06:14 <etotheipi_> sipa, you're using a different definition for these things
  38 2012-01-22 00:06:21 <Eliel> why no sweeping of untrusted keys?
  39 2012-01-22 00:06:50 <sipa> Eliel: i rather mean, you shouldn't trust a private key as a means of payment
  40 2012-01-22 00:06:52 <etotheipi_> whatever definition you use.... a key that you know for sure no one else has:  importing is safe
  41 2012-01-22 00:06:59 <sipa> if the sweep works, you're fine
  42 2012-01-22 00:07:14 <sipa> but you have no way of knowing in advance that the funds are there, or the key is valid
  43 2012-01-22 00:07:19 <etotheipi_> if there's ANY chance that someone else saw the private key, just sweep it (which throws it away)
  44 2012-01-22 00:07:49 <Eliel> sipa: of course, private keys aren't to be trusted until the sweep is complete.
  45 2012-01-22 00:08:35 theorb has joined
  46 2012-01-22 00:08:40 <sipa> case in point: i may trust a payment via casascius coin because i trust casascius (and i can check for physical integrity)
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  48 2012-01-22 00:08:58 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
  49 2012-01-22 00:09:00 <sipa> i will not trust a payment via a paper with a private key on it, unless it is from a friend
  50 2012-01-22 00:09:17 <etotheipi_> sipa... the sweep happens immediately... Armory scans the blockchain for unspent outputs, jams them all into a tx to yourself, broadcasts, then throws it away
  51 2012-01-22 00:09:28 <diki> what is the max size in bytes of an address?
  52 2012-01-22 00:09:38 <diki> bitcoin address
  53 2012-01-22 00:09:41 <etotheipi_> I don't recommend anyone accept private keys if they can't check the blockchain and sweep right away
  54 2012-01-22 00:09:47 <sipa> etotheipi_: "immediately" is only as soon as it reaches the digital world (your program)
  55 2012-01-22 00:09:58 <sipa> we're saying the same thing :)
  56 2012-01-22 00:10:01 <etotheipi_> sipa, we're in agreement
  57 2012-01-22 00:10:04 <etotheipi_> :)
  58 2012-01-22 00:11:16 <etotheipi_> I'm very close to my zero-confirmation-tx integration.... so I might get alpha out soon!
  59 2012-01-22 00:11:16 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  60 2012-01-22 00:11:36 <etotheipi_> I stupidly forgot to consider zero-conf txs when I built the original blockdata-manager
  61 2012-01-22 00:11:54 <etotheipi_> I guess my goal at the time was more for doing statistical tests on the blockchain... not building a client
  62 2012-01-22 00:12:41 <etotheipi_> and swift-geek helped me setup a cmake build system... so it might become a lot easier to support all different platforms
  63 2012-01-22 00:12:45 <Joric> i checked the blockchain against 1.7m of most used passwords - the only private key i found is sha256('fuckyou') with 0.25 btc on it )
  64 2012-01-22 00:13:16 <a_meteorite> Hah
  65 2012-01-22 00:13:30 <a_meteorite> I didn't know you could make "designer" private keys or such
  66 2012-01-22 00:13:38 c00w has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  67 2012-01-22 00:14:27 <etotheipi_> btw, for most people here, if you fire up Armory, I recommend switchign to "Developer" mode
  68 2012-01-22 00:14:52 <etotheipi_> I'll be adding some extra tools to that mode, soon, but for now it gives you some extra stuff
  69 2012-01-22 00:15:04 <diki> Joric:you did what??
  70 2012-01-22 00:15:16 <sipa> nanotube: i modified my bitcoin-seeder program to spit out a list of IPs with version number and uptime stats
  71 2012-01-22 00:15:29 <sipa> nanotube: want to compare with what you're using for the seednode list?
  72 2012-01-22 00:15:35 <a_meteorite> Bwahahaha. I'm using an old wallet with 0.05 BTC (from that one site that was giving them away) and the blockchain is 408 days old.
  73 2012-01-22 00:15:59 <sipa> a_meteorite: ... that means...
  74 2012-01-22 00:16:02 <diki> Joric:so you tried to what...find a collision or something?
  75 2012-01-22 00:16:07 <sipa> you started using bitcoin before me :(
  76 2012-01-22 00:16:11 <a_meteorite> etotheipi_: Guess you'll get to see how well Armory does with an old wallet once I eventually catch up
  77 2012-01-22 00:16:18 <user__> If armory go to stable and be better than satoshi client. is it possible be the 'official' client?
  78 2012-01-22 00:16:19 <a_meteorite> sipa: Oh, I'm before that even
  79 2012-01-22 00:16:20 <Joric> diki, it's called deterministic keys
  80 2012-01-22 00:16:36 <sipa> user__: there is no "official" client really
  81 2012-01-22 00:16:44 <etotheipi_> a_meteorite, there is no wallet import for now
  82 2012-01-22 00:16:49 <Eliel> user__: the whole point of bitcoin is that there is no "official" client.
  83 2012-01-22 00:16:56 <a_meteorite> etotheipi_: Oh...
  84 2012-01-22 00:17:04 <diki> Joric:you compared it to 1.7 what exactly?
  85 2012-01-22 00:17:13 <user__> ok
  86 2012-01-22 00:17:17 <diki> addresses in their final form?
  87 2012-01-22 00:17:18 <a_meteorite> So I really need a fresh Bitcoin directory then?
  88 2012-01-22 00:17:18 <Joric> the whole point of bitcoin is that there is "no" official client
  89 2012-01-22 00:17:26 <gmaxwell> Eliel: I prefer to use the phrase "reference client", which I think is accurate.
  90 2012-01-22 00:17:30 <a_meteorite> Or just no wallet.dat?
  91 2012-01-22 00:17:30 <etotheipi_> a_meteorite, the issue is that it's stupid-hard to get private keys out of Satoshi wallet
  92 2012-01-22 00:17:31 <Eliel> user__: there can be a de facto client, though.
  93 2012-01-22 00:17:43 <etotheipi_> a_meteorite, each wallet is stored in a different file in your .armory directory
  94 2012-01-22 00:17:50 <sipa> etotheipi_: 0.6 will have key export
  95 2012-01-22 00:17:57 <Eliel> gmaxwell: yes, reference client is a good way to put it
  96 2012-01-22 00:18:07 <etotheipi_> Armory uses the Satoshi blockchain (blk0001.dat), but nothing else from it
  97 2012-01-22 00:18:19 <nanotube> sipa: sure, we could check to see if my seednode list has an intersection with your list?
  98 2012-01-22 00:18:23 <etotheipi_> sipa, I guess that means I should support bulk-key import, soon
  99 2012-01-22 00:18:29 <diki> etotheipi_:it does support...mining, right?
 100 2012-01-22 00:18:33 <a_meteorite> etotheipi_: importing wallets sure would be nice...
 101 2012-01-22 00:18:37 <diki> as in it can go into server mode
 102 2012-01-22 00:18:39 <etotheipi_> but I won't be doing it right away...
 103 2012-01-22 00:18:58 seco has joined
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 105 2012-01-22 00:19:12 <etotheipi_> diki, I don't understand
 106 2012-01-22 00:19:28 <etotheipi_> I have no intention to do anything mining related with Armory
 107 2012-01-22 00:19:38 <diki> it doesnt support rpc commands?
 108 2012-01-22 00:19:41 <Joric> diki, also there was a key made from "Satoshi Nakamoto" with 0.00000001 on it but someone wiped it
 109 2012-01-22 00:19:42 <diki> such as getwork?
 110 2012-01-22 00:20:38 <etotheipi_> diki, Armory would make a *damned good* server... given that it can do ridiculously fast blockchain scans
 111 2012-01-22 00:20:45 <etotheipi_> but it's not implemented in anyway
 112 2012-01-22 00:21:30 <etotheipi_> one day I want to allow some kind of socket-interface to Armory... but for now I have other priorities
 113 2012-01-22 00:21:32 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Don't brag about how fast you are when you don't actually implement validation. :)
 114 2012-01-22 00:21:46 <a_meteorite> etotheipi_: Can I catch up my blockchain then and just nuke everything but blk0001.dat?
 115 2012-01-22 00:21:50 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 116 2012-01-22 00:21:57 <a_meteorite> Or do I have to get a blockchain with no wallet or anything?
 117 2012-01-22 00:21:58 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, that's mostly fair...
 118 2012-01-22 00:22:41 Nicksasa has joined
 119 2012-01-22 00:23:33 <etotheipi_> a_meteorite, the only thing Armory needs is the blk0001.dat file to be in the default bitcoin directory
 120 2012-01-22 00:23:40 <a_meteorite> k
 121 2012-01-22 00:23:54 d4de has joined
 122 2012-01-22 00:23:59 <etotheipi_> but Armory can't run (yet) without the satoshi client also running
 123 2012-01-22 00:24:03 dikidera has joined
 124 2012-01-22 00:24:18 <etotheipi_> it won't even pick up new blockdata without it out (it watches the blk0001.dat for updates)
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 126 2012-01-22 00:25:02 <a_meteorite> etotheipi_: thought it depended on it?
 127 2012-01-22 00:25:20 <a_meteorite> Oh
 128 2012-01-22 00:25:23 <a_meteorite> I misread you
 129 2012-01-22 00:26:12 diki has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 130 2012-01-22 00:26:45 * seco is impressed by the features of Armory
 131 2012-01-22 00:28:08 <etotheipi_> okay, I'm going undercover for a while... I gotta continue testing the new zero-conf code
 132 2012-01-22 00:28:51 <etotheipi_> seco, thanks :)
 133 2012-01-22 00:29:05 <seco> good luck, you can be shure i will have a criticism view on it :) - even if it does not mean anything hehe
 134 2012-01-22 00:29:25 marf_away has joined
 135 2012-01-22 00:29:27 <etotheipi_> all comments/suggestions/complaints/donations are welcome!  :)
 136 2012-01-22 00:29:39 <Joric> etotheipi_, how do you parse bdb? i assume you're loading the blockchain as is?
 137 2012-01-22 00:29:47 <etotheipi_> the blockchain is not bdb
 138 2012-01-22 00:29:59 <Joric> oh
 139 2012-01-22 00:30:03 <sipa> wallet.dat, addr.dat and blkindex.dat are bdb
 140 2012-01-22 00:30:14 <sipa> blk0001.dat is just a binary concatenation of blocks
 141 2012-01-22 00:30:16 <etotheipi_> it's a flat binary file with just [magic | numBlkBytes | header | numTx | Tx1 | Tx2 |... ]
 142 2012-01-22 00:30:42 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 143 2012-01-22 00:30:47 <etotheipi_> yeah, I haven't touched bsddb, which is why I can't do any kind of wallet import
 144 2012-01-22 00:31:01 <etotheipi_> but I didn't want to support that yet, anyway... at least not until the client gets some more testing
 145 2012-01-22 00:31:36 traviscj has joined
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 148 2012-01-22 00:32:58 <seco> at least the last suggestion is done right now :)
 149 2012-01-22 00:33:00 darkee has joined
 150 2012-01-22 00:33:24 <etotheipi_> oh wow, thanks seco!
 151 2012-01-22 00:33:30 <seco> the first 2 i will come in the next time to xD
 152 2012-01-22 00:33:48 <seco> another reas why i love bitcoin: you can express your likes very fast :)
 153 2012-01-22 00:33:52 <seco> reason*
 154 2012-01-22 00:33:58 <etotheipi_> please do... I'm very open to recommendations
 155 2012-01-22 00:34:20 <seco> :)
 156 2012-01-22 00:34:21 <etotheipi_> though my feature list is already based on months of browsing the forums...
 157 2012-01-22 00:34:38 <etotheipi_> so I expect mostly bug reports right now :)
 158 2012-01-22 00:35:07 * seco still loves coincontrol somewhere integrated (see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/415), but thats another field hehe
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 160 2012-01-22 00:36:23 <etotheipi_> what does "see all addresses, including change" mean?
 161 2012-01-22 00:37:00 <etotheipi_> I do have the full input/output list in the transaction view if you are in Advanced or Developer mode
 162 2012-01-22 00:38:23 <seco> just have a look on his video linked; what i miss from the 1st day at bitcoin is the ability to choose which addresses to use from the wallets current coinbase, when you send some out to a new address
 163 2012-01-22 00:38:43 traviscj_ has joined
 164 2012-01-22 00:40:40 <etotheipi_> btw, Armory codebase does have a SelectCoins algorithm that choose optimization based on minimal-tx-fee or anonymity
 165 2012-01-22 00:41:10 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 166 2012-01-22 00:41:12 <seco> better flowcontrol... but in case you dont have it in your featureplans, just add it somewhere; every man knows only patience leads to success :-)
 167 2012-01-22 00:41:14 traviscj has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 168 2012-01-22 00:41:49 <etotheipi_> so if you don't mind paying transaction fees, it will find SelectCoins solutions that (1) minimize number of input addrs (2) maximize uniformity of outputs and (3) looks at the precision of the change and recip outputs
 169 2012-01-22 00:42:28 <etotheipi_> for instance... if your outputs looks like (1.0 and 0.183922), it's pretty obvious which is change and which is recip)
 170 2012-01-22 00:43:41 <seco> and somewhere in future, someone enales it to let the user decide which input addr to use manually for the outgoing addr *g*
 171 2012-01-22 00:43:42 <roconnor> etotheipi_: which one is which?
 172 2012-01-22 00:43:49 <seco> enables*
 173 2012-01-22 00:43:49 <etotheipi_> however, if the SelectCoins algorithm finds a solution that is Chg: 1.0 and recip:0.183922... major bonus extra points for anonymity
 174 2012-01-22 00:43:50 SomeoneWeirdzzzz is now known as SomeoneWeird
 175 2012-01-22 00:44:09 <seco> :)
 176 2012-01-22 00:44:17 <etotheipi_> roconnor, usually you send someone 1.0 BTC, and then the changei s whatever is leftover, which may be something stupid like 0.183722
 177 2012-01-22 00:44:22 <roconnor> okay
 178 2012-01-22 00:44:40 <TuxBlackEdo> how does the bitcoin scripts work?
 179 2012-01-22 00:44:40 <etotheipi_> so part of the optimization takes into account the number of trailing zeros in the chg and recip parts
 180 2012-01-22 00:44:56 <TuxBlackEdo> is there a place on the wiki that says what all the OP_ codes do?
 181 2012-01-22 00:45:12 <sipa> TuxBlackEdo: yes, the Script page :)
 182 2012-01-22 00:45:37 <etotheipi_> if the change output actually has less trailing zeros than the recip output, then it gets "extra points" in the optimization for being deceptive
 183 2012-01-22 00:45:53 <sipa> haha, nice one
 184 2012-01-22 00:46:17 <roconnor> etotheipi_: how did you build the amoury website?
 185 2012-01-22 00:46:23 <roconnor> armory
 186 2012-01-22 00:46:32 * roconnor feels like registering bitcoinarmoury.com
 187 2012-01-22 00:46:34 <etotheipi_> roconnor, a friend helped me... set it up with WordPress
 188 2012-01-22 00:46:48 <seco> roconnor,  <meta name="generator" content="WordPress 3.3.1" />
 189 2012-01-22 00:46:55 <etotheipi_> I'm really impressed with WordPress
 190 2012-01-22 00:47:54 <etotheipi_> I was dreading doing the website, but it's actually quite pleasant
 191 2012-01-22 00:48:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: I had a patch for bitcoin that ran post selection and added inputs if doing to reduced the priority but kept it over the threshold and made the change more round.
 192 2012-01-22 00:48:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: but I couldn't figure out how to keep it from using up too many of your inputs. e.g. making it less likely that you'll get exact matches.
 193 2012-01-22 00:48:45 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 194 2012-01-22 00:48:54 <roconnor> etotheipi_: no openssl dependency?
 195 2012-01-22 00:49:03 <etotheipi_> roconnor, cryptopp
 196 2012-01-22 00:49:41 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, that is almost exactly what I did (if I understand what you said). ... after the SelectCoins is done, I look to see if there's any low-priority outputs from addresses already being used and tack them on
 197 2012-01-22 00:49:58 <etotheipi_> as long as it doesn't break allowFree (if allowFree was satisfied to begin with)
 198 2012-01-22 00:50:19 <roconnor> etotheipi_: cryptopp supports ecdsa, or you built it out of their primitives?
 199 2012-01-22 00:50:39 <etotheipi_> roconnor, it supports ECDSA (though it's not nearly as fast as openssl)
 200 2012-01-22 00:50:54 <etotheipi_> though I had to use lower-level integer math for the determinstic wallet code
 201 2012-01-22 00:50:55 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: yea, there you go. GMTA. But yea, what I was worried about is that it would gobble up all the inputs you have in varrious amount ranges, causing later transactions to produce change more often.
 202 2012-01-22 00:51:39 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: did you ever create simulation code to figure out how often it mattered?
 203 2012-01-22 00:51:58 <sipa> etotheipi_: i believe i already asked you, but how fast is a signature verification in cryptopp's ECDSA?
 204 2012-01-22 00:52:03 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I have to double-check, but it's pretty strict criteria for when it will tack them on... only if it's low priority and tiny
 205 2012-01-22 00:53:04 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, unfortunately I somehow lost my selectcoins unit test... but I did test a lot of different scenarios and was surprised how often it grabbed one or two extra inputs in that code
 206 2012-01-22 00:53:13 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 207 2012-01-22 00:53:13 <etotheipi_> sipa, I think it's like 100-150 ECDSA verifies/s
 208 2012-01-22 00:53:22 <edcba> i doubt edcsa is bottleneck anywhere in bitcoin
 209 2012-01-22 00:53:37 <etotheipi_> edcba, it would be a bottleneck if I was doing full verification
 210 2012-01-22 00:54:03 <TuxBlackEdo> cant someone figure this out by putting in some nanosecond timers between routines?
 211 2012-01-22 00:54:11 <edcba> indeed
 212 2012-01-22 00:54:21 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: my motivation was limited because I didn't think it would matter that often... and didn't care enough to write a simulation to find out.
 213 2012-01-22 00:54:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: what kind of CPU?
 214 2012-01-22 00:54:24 <edcba> or having some profiling tool running
 215 2012-01-22 00:54:33 <etotheipi_> i5-2500k
 216 2012-01-22 00:55:00 <etotheipi_> cryptopp is actually a bit faster, but I have some overhead to the function call for converting data types
 217 2012-01-22 00:55:12 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Its interesting to me that you say it's run often. Perhaps I'll do it again then for the refernce client. Still dunno how to avoid the issue with making future txn more change heavy.
 218 2012-01-22 00:55:16 <sipa> shouldn't be much difference
 219 2012-01-22 00:55:18 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r10378f878a43 cgminer/bitforce.c: Fix windows build of bitforce blindly. Hopefully it works. http://tinyurl.com/6rvxwum
 220 2012-01-22 00:55:49 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I had a lot of fun figuring out how to optimize "future unspent-output fields" or whatever you want to call it
 221 2012-01-22 00:56:07 <etotheipi_> I mean, I didn't get very far beyond what I just described with tacking on extras
 222 2012-01-22 00:56:50 <etotheipi_> however, if the tx is for X BTC, I try to make the output 2X so that I get back an almost-identical change output
 223 2012-01-22 00:57:28 <roconnor> etotheipi_: 01de23d3997571c5d8f34955e45ecc56500097e8 is the latest revision?
 224 2012-01-22 00:57:56 <etotheipi_> roconnor, whatever is on the qtdev branch
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 226 2012-01-22 00:58:05 <roconnor> oh
 227 2012-01-22 00:58:41 <etotheipi_> my first release will be marked by merging into master
 228 2012-01-22 00:58:50 <etotheipi_> but I haven't actually commited anythign to master for 1.5 montsh
 229 2012-01-22 00:58:51 <edcba> ok how much transactions per second handles bitcoin network ?
 230 2012-01-22 00:58:58 Nick_ has joined
 231 2012-01-22 00:59:03 <etotheipi_> edcba, less than 1 tx/s
 232 2012-01-22 00:59:06 <etotheipi_> (right now)
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 236 2012-01-22 01:00:15 <roconnor> does step 8 "python ArmoryQt.py" compile or run Amory?
 237 2012-01-22 01:00:22 <etotheipi_> that runs it
 238 2012-01-22 01:00:27 <etotheipi_> and use "--testnet"
 239 2012-01-22 01:00:28 <edcba> indeed more like 1 tx/min
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 246 2012-01-22 01:08:27 <etotheipi_> roconnor, what linux version are you using and did the build instructions work?
 247 2012-01-22 01:08:46 <etotheipi_> they definitely work for 10.04... but I heard there was some .so issues with another Ubuntu version
 248 2012-01-22 01:09:08 <etotheipi_> (I hope the new cmake system will help with all this stuff...)
 249 2012-01-22 01:09:53 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 252 2012-01-22 01:15:34 <etotheipi_> with the introduction of watching-only wallets, it is possible to actually exchange such watching-only versions with a friend, so that you can send each other money, to new addresses everytime without requesting an addr
 253 2012-01-22 01:16:24 <etotheipi_> so you'd have a wallet labeled "Joe" and you can always get an address from that wallet to send money to Joe...
 254 2012-01-22 01:16:49 <etotheipi_> but I'm not sure if that's a feature peopel would want, and if so... how to integrate it well
 255 2012-01-22 01:17:34 <etotheipi_> you'd have all this moeny scattered between lots of wallets, and you don't need to see the balance of Joe's wallet, you only need to get addresses... so it requires some special setup in the GUI
 256 2012-01-22 01:18:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: that may be useful, but only for people you really know, i suppose
 257 2012-01-22 01:18:49 <sipa> in general, you should not assume any payment will reach someone, unless they are aware of it
 258 2012-01-22 01:19:11 <sipa> e.g. they may have lost their computer with the wallet on it, or changed e-wallet provider, or ...
 259 2012-01-22 01:19:14 <etotheipi_> perhaps, have wallets behave as subwallets
 260 2012-01-22 01:19:59 <etotheipi_> sipa, I agree with you that you should check they still have a wallet, but the extra address exchange is cumbersome... I *can* add it easily, but I don't know if it's worth my time
 261 2012-01-22 01:20:38 <sipa> the extra address exchange is currently cumbersome yes
 262 2012-01-22 01:21:03 <sipa> i hope it changes in the future (https://gist.github.com/1237788)
 263 2012-01-22 01:24:18 <etotheipi_> oh right, I remember seeing discussion about that on the mailing list, but it seemed no one could agree about the security scheme
 264 2012-01-22 01:24:29 <etotheipi_> is anyone actively working on that?
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 266 2012-01-22 01:25:34 <sipa> not that i know of
 267 2012-01-22 01:25:43 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 268 2012-01-22 01:25:44 <sipa> still, one of these things is the future imho
 269 2012-01-22 01:31:46 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 270 2012-01-22 01:36:45 <roconnor> etotheipi_: I'm running nixos
 271 2012-01-22 01:37:36 <roconnor> apparently I'm rebuilding qt for some reason >_>
 272 2012-01-22 01:38:45 <etotheipi_> roconnor, I'm pretty sure that step is not in the Armory build instructions :)
 273 2012-01-22 01:39:16 <etotheipi_> tonight or tomorrow I'm going to try to merge in the cmake stuff... hopefully that simplifies it for people not running Ubuntu
 274 2012-01-22 01:39:21 <roconnor> libqt4-dev
 275 2012-01-22 01:39:39 <roconnor> I'm not sure why I didn't get a prebuilt qt
 276 2012-01-22 01:39:45 <roconnor> I'm looking into that
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 284 2012-01-22 02:12:26 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
 285 2012-01-22 02:12:32 <Diablo-D3> does the 7970 work in linux?
 286 2012-01-22 02:14:09 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: how would I know? There was a thread where it was indicated that it did, but took a little kicking.
 287 2012-01-22 02:14:48 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 288 2012-01-22 02:14:56 <Diablo-D3> not sure if do want =/
 289 2012-01-22 02:16:04 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: Im trying to squeeze out the last 5850 testing Im ever going to do
 290 2012-01-22 02:24:14 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: Im convinced AMD hates me or something, though
 291 2012-01-22 02:25:27 bagit has joined
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 294 2012-01-22 02:32:00 <TuxBlackEdo> Diablo-D3, so what will happen with all those bitcoins i donated to you for your 7970?
 295 2012-01-22 02:32:20 <Diablo-D3> TuxBlackEdo: oh dont get me wrong
 296 2012-01-22 02:32:26 <Diablo-D3> your 1 btc will be used for that
 297 2012-01-22 02:32:39 <Diablo-D3> but if I cant run the card on linux, why am I buying it right this very second?
 298 2012-01-22 02:32:58 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: you can, see the forum. Apparently there is some config massaging needed. Art posted on it.
 299 2012-01-22 02:33:09 <TuxBlackEdo> 1btc? are you kidding me
 300 2012-01-22 02:33:14 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you wouldnt have the specific thread, would you? ;)
 301 2012-01-22 02:33:25 <TuxBlackEdo> i gave you pretty much all the cash for your 7970
 302 2012-01-22 02:33:30 <TuxBlackEdo> bitcoins*
 303 2012-01-22 02:34:08 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Pull the pin and count to what?)
 304 2012-01-22 02:34:13 * gmaxwell coughs
 305 2012-01-22 02:34:35 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: No, I'm not that useful. Search.
 306 2012-01-22 02:35:22 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r238a85156e13 cgminer/NEWS: Update NEWS with changelog for upcoming 2.2.0 release. http://tinyurl.com/7z5oeb5
 307 2012-01-22 02:35:24 <Diablo-D3> TuxBlackEdo: no you didnt, you publically listed a bunch of mtgox codes in a channel, and bots stole them before any human could use them
 308 2012-01-22 02:35:30 <Diablo-D3> TuxBlackEdo: thats assuming they were even valid codes
 309 2012-01-22 02:35:55 <gmaxwell> TuxBlackEdo: several people run mtgox code grabbing bots in IRC.
 310 2012-01-22 02:36:41 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: he knows this, its just one of his trolling points
 311 2012-01-22 02:36:48 <Diablo-D3> afiak he even runs one of the bots
 312 2012-01-22 02:36:49 <TuxBlackEdo> what
 313 2012-01-22 02:36:56 <TuxBlackEdo> no i dont
 314 2012-01-22 02:37:24 <Diablo-D3> the one code you privmsged was for 1 btc.
 315 2012-01-22 02:38:21 <Joric> BlueMatt, are you here? check out decryption am i doing it right? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1Z3c8BCP
 316 2012-01-22 02:38:25 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 317 2012-01-22 02:39:59 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 318 2012-01-22 02:40:14 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if uint4 foo; uint2 bar; foo.hi = bar; is supposed to work right
 319 2012-01-22 02:43:47 <Diablo-D3> also, in unrelated news
 320 2012-01-22 02:43:52 <Diablo-D3> if I can get this new idea of mine to work
 321 2012-01-22 02:44:01 <Diablo-D3> 397 or so mhash -> 407.
 322 2012-01-22 02:45:24 phantomfake has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 323 2012-01-22 02:46:07 <Diablo-D3> I so do very hope I can get it working
 324 2012-01-22 02:53:36 <dikidera> what is txin,txout?
 325 2012-01-22 02:55:01 user__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 326 2012-01-22 02:55:36 phantomfake has joined
 327 2012-01-22 02:55:56 <dikidera> Joric:and it does...?
 328 2012-01-22 02:56:06 <Joric> nothing atm
 329 2012-01-22 02:56:29 <Joric> keys not match
 330 2012-01-22 02:57:25 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 331 2012-01-22 02:57:39 <dikidera> what do you plan to make it do?
 332 2012-01-22 02:58:16 <Joric> decode ckeys from wallet.dat
 333 2012-01-22 03:00:50 <dikidera> anywho
 334 2012-01-22 03:01:16 <dikidera> I need to figure out how to use the mysql API in c
 335 2012-01-22 03:01:21 <dikidera> so off I go to mysql.com
 336 2012-01-22 03:03:20 talso has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 337 2012-01-22 03:10:52 <seco> after having read a bit about Armory this seems a really nice piece of work! just one question: could someone explain me the idea why to only keep the core at c++, and develop everything else in python? interoperability in gui?
 338 2012-01-22 03:11:13 <sipa> easy of development, i suppose
 339 2012-01-22 03:11:47 <etotheipi_> seco, it's because handling a GB of blockchain data is devastatingly slow in python
 340 2012-01-22 03:12:12 <etotheipi_> but python is my favorite, and most-pleasant development tool/language
 341 2012-01-22 03:12:38 <etotheipi_> I was actually planning to do pure-python... but I realized that wasn't feasible if I was going to do any processing of the whole blockchain
 342 2012-01-22 03:12:56 <seco> ahh ic, probably because of the liveinterpretation i guess?
 343 2012-01-22 03:14:45 <seco> i was thinking about learn some python, maybe i will have a start with your work in a few weeks :)
 344 2012-01-22 03:15:03 <etotheipi_> I just did a one-hour lunchtime seminar at my work on python
 345 2012-01-22 03:15:09 <etotheipi_> trying to highlight why it's awesome
 346 2012-01-22 03:15:11 <etotheipi_> I could send it to you
 347 2012-01-22 03:15:42 <seco> you differences to other languages?
 348 2012-01-22 03:15:50 <seco> mean*
 349 2012-01-22 03:15:51 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I find that it's pretty easy to get disenchanted with python when you have several hours of computation lost due to a silly syntax error, which any other language would have caught at compile time, in the code the prints the results.  :(
 350 2012-01-22 03:15:53 <etotheipi_> it's not a direct comparison
 351 2012-01-22 03:16:46 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, all languages, and types of languages have ups and downs... personally, what you lose from not having a strongly typed language, I made up in spending 4 months developing instead of 12
 352 2012-01-22 03:17:41 <etotheipi_> sometimes I get bit by what you describe, but being able to write code at 3x speed helps me keep a train of thought and not get caught in minutae of the language
 353 2012-01-22 03:18:10 <seco> thats something which made up my interest on python: functional programming, altough im a bit dumb only having theoretical skills in that :p
 354 2012-01-22 03:18:16 <gmaxwell> ::nods:: Yea, I'm familar with the argument.. for a while I adopted a "my time is more valuable than the computer's I'll use python for all my one shot codes" but found that it was often so slow that it didn't pay for the development improvement. Of course, requirements diff.
 355 2012-01-22 03:18:33 <etotheipi_> seco, I don't do any direct comparisons, but I try to point out "look how easy this is!" you can fill in your own experiences for comparison
 356 2012-01-22 03:18:54 <gmaxwell> (I'm also not a very good python programmer, if you really know the language you can write faster code than otherwise.. e.g. things like using xrange instead of range.)
 357 2012-01-22 03:21:50 <etotheipi_> I actually can't call myself a "good" python programmer... but I know how to get stuff done very quickly and with few lines of code
 358 2012-01-22 03:22:25 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I overuse comprehensions, map/reduce, and lambda, because thats how I think... results in slow code though.
 359 2012-01-22 03:22:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: you should use Haskell then ;)
 360 2012-01-22 03:22:47 <Diablo-D3> fuck, gmaxwell thinks in lisp
 361 2012-01-22 03:22:55 <gmaxwell> some program I wrote had a single line implementation of Dijkstra in an inner loop.
 362 2012-01-22 03:22:56 <Diablo-D3> hes lost to us
 363 2012-01-22 03:23:19 <seco> something i miss on linux-os is guidesign, that was another reason why i looked into python a few weeks ago (already hacked me some kind script together which auths me automatically to gribble leaned on nanotubes one): im out to hack some gui fast together for customers as a working prorotype, but all i got to work atm is monodevelop with stetic *shame*
 364 2012-01-22 03:23:34 <gmaxwell> (or at least, thats how I think when I'm not thinking in C — writing in C in python is just stupid though)
 365 2012-01-22 03:24:28 <etotheipi_> python is slow, that's undeniable, but I don't feel like a Bitcoin client needs speed at all (except for blockchain processing, which is why I put it in C++)
 366 2012-01-22 03:24:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: I like the idea of Haskell mostly though I'm not too in love with pattern matching languages. Though I've never really had a chance to actually get over the initial learning curve with it.
 367 2012-01-22 03:24:56 <seco> lisp..something i know from studies :D
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 377 2012-01-22 03:41:07 <k9quaint> everyone should be required to do at least one project in Lisp ;)
 378 2012-01-22 03:41:30 * sipa gets out his father's parentheses
 379 2012-01-22 03:42:05 <Diablo-D3> :3
 380 2012-01-22 03:42:27 <sipa> (xkcd 297)
 381 2012-01-22 03:42:27 <gmaxwell> Lisp is fine too.
 382 2012-01-22 03:43:02 <etotheipi_> what's so great about lisp?  I've never used it
 383 2012-01-22 03:43:11 <seco> undead
 384 2012-01-22 03:43:18 <k9quaint> http://www.levenez.com/lang/lang_a4.pdf
 385 2012-01-22 03:43:29 <k9quaint> cool chart that tracks all the evolution of programming languages
 386 2012-01-22 03:44:01 <lianj> etotheipi_: recursion?
 387 2012-01-22 03:44:07 <sipa> brackets
 388 2012-01-22 03:45:29 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: you can look as lisp as an assembly language for a very simple lisp abstract machine which, from within the confines of the language, can be brought up to very high level language capabilities through simple library code. Makes it fairly easy to understand the language at multiple levels.
 389 2012-01-22 03:45:36 <sipa> i haven't used lisp myself, but judging from a course that taught the workings of an interpreter with it, my two largest objections are typelessness and parentheses :)
 390 2012-01-22 03:46:31 <k9quaint> actually, lisp is very strongly typed
 391 2012-01-22 03:46:36 <k9quaint> its just that there is only one ;)
 392 2012-01-22 03:48:05 <k9quaint> nobody works down at that level anymore though, common lisp has abstracted the scary center of the language
 393 2012-01-22 03:48:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: common lisp has types (e.g. part of CLOS, but feelings are mixed), and there are extensions for fancy rigorous type systems.
 394 2012-01-22 03:49:40 <k9quaint> the best part of lisp is, if you don't like part of it you can rewrite it
 395 2012-01-22 03:50:16 <k9quaint> like creating a domain specific language, just for the project you are working on
 396 2012-01-22 03:50:50 <k9quaint> conditions and the REPL are <3 too
 397 2012-01-22 03:52:16 <gmaxwell> Yea, you can basically write a basic subset-lisp interperter with a few hundred lines of C, and write the rest of the language as library code that runs on it. This isn't going to get you high performance... but nothing else has that kind of regularity.
 398 2012-01-22 03:52:51 <k9quaint> when first exposed to lisp, most people balk on the look of the code, and the s-expressions
 399 2012-01-22 03:53:15 * seco still runs up the hill
 400 2012-01-22 03:53:30 <gmaxwell> This is a minimal lisp interperter (in lisp): http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.lisp
 401 2012-01-22 03:53:31 <etotheipi_> k9quaint, like I just did when I looked it up on wikipedia... then calmly went back to coding in python
 402 2012-01-22 03:53:39 <k9quaint> its not for the faint of heart
 403 2012-01-22 03:54:10 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: hehe, yeah, I love that bit of code
 404 2012-01-22 03:55:26 xenland has joined
 405 2012-01-22 03:55:26 <gmaxwell> Its easier to get used to lisp if you use an RPN calculator. :)  I wonder if you plotted lisp popularity vs HP calculators if you could see a relationship.
 406 2012-01-22 03:55:35 <k9quaint> I have
 407 2012-01-22 03:55:44 <k9quaint> still got my 12c too
 408 2012-01-22 03:55:51 <k9quaint> somewhere...
 409 2012-01-22 03:56:01 * k9quaint rummages
 410 2012-01-22 03:56:17 <gmaxwell> Yea, I use an RPN calculator too. I've never done serious development in lisp but I've maintained code other people have written in it.
 411 2012-01-22 03:56:59 <gmaxwell> including one wikipedia bot that was writen in a mixture of C, prolog, lisp, and python. Oy.
 412 2012-01-22 03:57:10 <k9quaint> my current project is in lisp (and clojure for the stuff that runs on JVM)
 413 2012-01-22 03:57:22 <seco> etotheipi_, just to support my lazyness: which ide to you use?
 414 2012-01-22 03:57:34 <seco> do*
 415 2012-01-22 03:57:47 <k9quaint> good ole reverse polish notation
 416 2012-01-22 03:58:05 <etotheipi_> seco, I don't use one.  I do all my programming in vim
 417 2012-01-22 03:58:17 <seco> -_-
 418 2012-01-22 03:58:22 <etotheipi_> I have about 12 vim windows open at all times
 419 2012-01-22 03:58:46 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 420 2012-01-22 03:58:47 <k9quaint> i use vim when I am not writing in lisp (wierdly), otherwise I use emacs of course
 421 2012-01-22 03:59:01 TheSeven has joined
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 424 2012-01-22 03:59:16 <gmaxwell> seco: asking someone about IDE's is sort of a revealing question, in fact! :)
 425 2012-01-22 03:59:17 <k9quaint> of course, I call it vi because I am old like that
 426 2012-01-22 03:59:20 <etotheipi_> actually... if I'm debugging something nasty... I break out eclipse
 427 2012-01-22 03:59:33 <k9quaint> BLASPHEMER!
 428 2012-01-22 03:59:39 shadders has joined
 429 2012-01-22 03:59:39 <seco> ok, then id suggest to have a look into Eric.. just installed it a few weeks ago
 430 2012-01-22 03:59:39 MrTiggr has joined
 431 2012-01-22 03:59:43 <etotheipi_> easy-eclipse is a nice little standalone IDE for stepping through python code
 432 2012-01-22 04:00:00 <k9quaint> the repl is my ide baby!
 433 2012-01-22 04:00:01 <etotheipi_> though it can be a pain to setup...
 434 2012-01-22 04:01:49 <seco> well i dont hide...said above im interested in python, im just to lazy to google for some ide which supports autocomplete and such newbiehelps, and even guidesign but seems rare at the nix-world (except qt atm)...
 435 2012-01-22 04:02:04 <seco> im afraid vim will be the right for me :x
 436 2012-01-22 04:03:17 <etotheipi_> I do all my programming ,in all languages in vim... just like emacs, at some point you get good enough it's almost like converting thoughts directly into code changes
 437 2012-01-22 04:04:51 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_++
 438 2012-01-22 04:05:10 <seco> thats someting im missing as casual programmer: i always need apis :/
 439 2012-01-22 04:05:35 <seco> while writing^
 440 2012-01-22 04:05:45 <etotheipi_> well it's definitely an investment of time to learn vim or emacs... but luckily you can still be productive and learn it at the same time
 441 2012-01-22 04:05:56 <gmaxwell> (I'm not a vim user — I use joe for casual editing and emacs but the point of IDE's not providing a lot resonates for me— maybe if I used a bunch of crazy fancy oop things things like eclipse would be more helpful)
 442 2012-01-22 04:06:15 phungi has quit (Quit: leaving)
 443 2012-01-22 04:06:33 <etotheipi_> you just learn the basics of it, and start doing coding in it... then gradually add one new feature every two days and try to integrate it into your coding patterns
 444 2012-01-22 04:07:26 <seco> depends on the number of screen you have available while coding with eclipse :D
 445 2012-01-22 04:07:31 <seco> screens*
 446 2012-01-22 04:07:54 <etotheipi_> you'll be at 70% efficiency compared to a regular IDE, to start... but it gets above 100% within a month
 447 2012-01-22 04:09:29 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 448 2012-01-22 04:10:08 * seco added vim to his todolist for having a look into for programming
 449 2012-01-22 04:10:10 <seco> :p
 450 2012-01-22 04:10:41 <seco> dont expect answers in the next months: its somewhere in the middle :-/
 451 2012-01-22 04:13:07 pickett has joined
 452 2012-01-22 04:13:55 <etotheipi_> I also like the fact that i can split screens in VIM very easily... I always keep my .h files on the left and .cpp on the right
 453 2012-01-22 04:14:26 <roconnor> I chose vi over emacs when I couldn't get both help and backspace working at the same time in emacs.
 454 2012-01-22 04:18:47 RobinPKR_ has joined
 455 2012-01-22 04:20:07 <luke-jr> if anyone could review the completeness of https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin/commit/6cd6788798f2b0637a730baba22b907b9ec51413 , I'd appreciate it
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 458 2012-01-22 04:20:23 <etotheipi_> I was about to saw how disappointing it is that I can't use VIM directly in MSVS... but it occurred to me I never looked
 459 2012-01-22 04:20:42 <luke-jr> who would use MSVS?
 460 2012-01-22 04:21:09 <etotheipi_> nothing beats MSVS for debugging
 461 2012-01-22 04:21:39 <JFK911> seems emacs would fit it better
 462 2012-01-22 04:21:42 <Diablo-D3> you mean msys?
 463 2012-01-22 04:22:03 <etotheipi_> MS Visual Studio
 464 2012-01-22 04:22:07 <Diablo-D3> oh
 465 2012-01-22 04:22:11 <Diablo-D3> erm
 466 2012-01-22 04:22:16 <JFK911> but emacs wont give you intellisense!!!
 467 2012-01-22 04:22:18 <Diablo-D3> they have a plugin to use vim in vs
 468 2012-01-22 04:22:23 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: yes it will
 469 2012-01-22 04:22:26 <JFK911> really
 470 2012-01-22 04:22:28 <Diablo-D3> and so will vim
 471 2012-01-22 04:22:29 <JFK911> omg
 472 2012-01-22 04:22:34 <JFK911> how did they do this
 473 2012-01-22 04:22:40 <Diablo-D3> both emacs and vim have had intelligent auto complete before vis studio even existed
 474 2012-01-22 04:22:59 <etotheipi_> yeah, vim would be a lot more challenging if it didn't have it
 475 2012-01-22 04:23:01 <JFK911> hm im not sure how will vim or emacs know about say
 476 2012-01-22 04:23:06 <JFK911> a function i defined in another file in my project
 477 2012-01-22 04:23:16 <etotheipi_> JFK911, it actually does
 478 2012-01-22 04:23:20 <JFK911> nice
 479 2012-01-22 04:23:24 <etotheipi_> all my vim windows are aware of all the others
 480 2012-01-22 04:23:25 <JFK911> i never saw them do this before
 481 2012-01-22 04:23:31 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: it does
 482 2012-01-22 04:23:36 <etotheipi_> when I do the autocomplete, it shows me all the options and even tells me what files they are in
 483 2012-01-22 04:23:38 <Diablo-D3> infact, someone wrote a really neat script for vim
 484 2012-01-22 04:23:43 <Diablo-D3> uses clang as an autocomplete source
 485 2012-01-22 04:23:50 <Diablo-D3> cant beat a compiler.
 486 2012-01-22 04:23:50 <JFK911> and fills in the whole prototype for you or just its name
 487 2012-01-22 04:23:53 <JFK911> ?
 488 2012-01-22 04:23:58 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: depends
 489 2012-01-22 04:24:11 <etotheipi_> just the name... it's not language-specific autocomplete (though there may be a plugin for that)
 490 2012-01-22 04:24:13 <Diablo-D3> vim is highly configurable
 491 2012-01-22 04:24:25 <Diablo-D3> Ive seen people's vim do prototype completion
 492 2012-01-22 04:25:20 <etotheipi_> I'm sure there's lots of cool stuff out there... this conversation may inspire me to look into more advanced stuff like that
 493 2012-01-22 04:26:16 <Diablo-D3> heh, my .vim is on github
 494 2012-01-22 04:26:32 <etotheipi_> mine is in dropbox and soft-linked on all my systems
 495 2012-01-22 04:26:32 <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/Diablo-D3/dot_vim
 496 2012-01-22 04:26:48 <JFK911> if you are stuck using windoze api the intellisense helps me remember all the api garbage that nobody should have to remember
 497 2012-01-22 04:27:39 <etotheipi_> JFK911, I feel like it's similar to remembering phone numbers... people don't do it anymore because their phone holds everything
 498 2012-01-22 04:27:57 <etotheipi_> but if you don't have such luxuries, you find it's actually not that hard to remember
 499 2012-01-22 04:28:00 phungus_ has joined
 500 2012-01-22 04:28:01 <etotheipi_> in fact, you pay more attention
 501 2012-01-22 04:28:16 <etotheipi_> (then of course, I'm really good at memorizing numbers)
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 505 2012-01-22 04:29:03 <etotheipi_> but there's nothing wrong with using all those luxuries... I'm just saying it's not as bad as you think not having them
 506 2012-01-22 04:29:13 <etotheipi_> and in the end... vim *does* have most of them
 507 2012-01-22 04:29:27 <Diablo-D3> btw, syntastic and supertab are like fucking magic
 508 2012-01-22 04:30:23 <etotheipi_> Diablo-D3, I'm looking at syntastic right now... looks great
 509 2012-01-22 04:31:54 <Diablo-D3> I like vundle though
 510 2012-01-22 04:32:08 <Diablo-D3> automatically downloads and updates modules from git
 511 2012-01-22 04:32:26 <etotheipi_> heh, I've never actually known anyone else who uses vim, so I've never had any exposure to new stuff like this
 512 2012-01-22 04:32:33 <JFK911> etotheipi_: well the windoze api and all its versions are just too much to rememeber.  standard c libs no problem
 513 2012-01-22 04:32:37 <Diablo-D3> yeah, a lot of people are like
 514 2012-01-22 04:32:38 <Diablo-D3> LOL VIM SUCKS
 515 2012-01-22 04:32:43 <JFK911> i cant remember how to open a file on windoze
 516 2012-01-22 04:32:45 <Diablo-D3> it sucks because you didnt configure it to your tastes.
 517 2012-01-22 04:32:55 <JFK911> you have to use some special alias that picks the right fopen
 518 2012-01-22 04:33:02 <JFK911> or something
 519 2012-01-22 04:33:04 <etotheipi_> JFK911, you probably have a point w.r.t. windows API, but i've never used it
 520 2012-01-22 04:33:16 <JFK911> or a different fopen if you need to support unicode filenames
 521 2012-01-22 04:33:26 <JFK911> or a different fopen if you dont want a buffer overrun
 522 2012-01-22 04:33:31 <etotheipi_> but I've spent thousands of hours developing in VIM and I've never missed any of the features of MSVS
 523 2012-01-22 04:35:58 <Diablo-D3> argh wtf!
 524 2012-01-22 04:35:59 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wy5YKdbjZQ&feature=related
 525 2012-01-22 04:36:02 <Diablo-D3> nein!
 526 2012-01-22 04:38:01 <Diablo-D3> it gets worse after 1:25!
 527 2012-01-22 04:38:05 <cjdelisle> nyan
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 530 2012-01-22 04:43:28 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I has a sad, I fixed it, it didnt make it faster :<
 531 2012-01-22 04:46:20 <k9quaint> the guy spends all that time on modding the g15, but his website looks like a downsie from 1994 created it
 532 2012-01-22 04:46:55 <Diablo-D3> yeah sadly
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 543 2012-01-22 05:50:13 <CIA-76> bitcoin: splatster * r3f4c061ef2d4 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/otcstyle.css: Updated OTCWebsite/otcstyle.css to add rounded corners to header for CSS3 capable browsers. http://tinyurl.com/749t38o
 544 2012-01-22 05:50:14 <CIA-76> bitcoin: nanotube * r3b76c6692cd1 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/otcstyle.css: Merge pull request #24 from splatster/patch-1 http://tinyurl.com/6qj6rck
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 549 2012-01-22 06:03:13 * roconnor builds pyqt4
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 563 2012-01-22 06:25:29 <da2ce7> what is the channel for the development of the andriod bitcoin wallet?
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 566 2012-01-22 06:30:13 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * re29a8a2c544f supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/Market/plugin.py: Market: use full mtgox depth, cached, for asks and bids commands. http://tinyurl.com/7kre8zm
 567 2012-01-22 06:30:23 mod6 has joined
 568 2012-01-22 06:34:16 <Joric> etotheipi_, are you still here?
 569 2012-01-22 06:34:27 <etotheipi_> I am, but not for long
 570 2012-01-22 06:34:46 <Joric> etotheipi_, i'm trying to write key decryption http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1Z3c8BCP
 571 2012-01-22 06:35:20 <Joric> doesn't work so far, take a look )
 572 2012-01-22 06:35:43 <etotheipi_> trying to decrypt the Satoshi wallet files?
 573 2012-01-22 06:35:47 <Joric> yes
 574 2012-01-22 06:36:23 <Joric> you was asked about nDeriveIterations they are actually stored in the wallet
 575 2012-01-22 06:36:41 <etotheipi_> yeah, it would have to be
 576 2012-01-22 06:36:46 <etotheipi_> I just didn't know where to find it
 577 2012-01-22 06:38:03 <etotheipi_> btw
 578 2012-01-22 06:38:11 <etotheipi_> the hash is SHA512
 579 2012-01-22 06:38:17 <etotheipi_> and it may not be doubled
 580 2012-01-22 06:38:25 <Joric> what
 581 2012-01-22 06:38:57 <etotheipi_> it looks like you're using SHA256 for the KDF... but the wallet uses SHA512
 582 2012-01-22 06:39:06 <gmaxwell> No it doesn't look like that.
 583 2012-01-22 06:39:08 <Joric> no it's not
 584 2012-01-22 06:39:09 <Joric> AES-256-decrypt the private keys, using the master key as the key and the (double-sha256-hash) PUBLIC part of the keypair as the initialization vector
 585 2012-01-22 06:39:12 <gmaxwell>     i = ssl.EVP_BytesToKey(ssl.EVP_aes_256_cbc(), ssl.EVP_sha512(),
 586 2012-01-22 06:39:46 <etotheipi_> oh, I misread it, you're right
 587 2012-01-22 06:40:21 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r0719d4070417 cgminer/ocl.c: Clean up on failure to load a binary kernel. http://tinyurl.com/7j95rkt
 588 2012-01-22 06:40:22 <Joric> i took it from official client (which is obviously official :P
 589 2012-01-22 06:41:01 <gmaxwell> Joric: the reference client, whic is obviously the reference. ;)
 590 2012-01-22 06:41:56 <Joric> long story short the only thing left is to debug it and trace those keys on nature
 591 2012-01-22 06:42:08 <etotheipi_> are you sure your endianness is right?
 592 2012-01-22 06:42:17 <etotheipi_> have you used this code before, with private keys, etc
 593 2012-01-22 06:42:22 <Joric> they are strings
 594 2012-01-22 06:42:32 <Joric> etotheipi_, i wrote pywallet
 595 2012-01-22 06:42:43 <etotheipi_> for instance, you have secr = '.....'
 596 2012-01-22 06:42:51 <etotheipi_> okay, nm
 597 2012-01-22 06:43:27 <etotheipi_> it's just when I see '....'.decode('hex'), endianness comes to mind
 598 2012-01-22 06:43:42 <etotheipi_> since most systems decode in LE, but most key data needs to be BE
 599 2012-01-22 06:44:23 <etotheipi_> but I suspect you know what you're doing :)
 600 2012-01-22 06:44:36 <Joric> well they are all made from .encode('hex') i guess there's no LE issues
 601 2012-01-22 06:44:48 <etotheipi_> (p.s. I did not match your IRC name with jackjack)
 602 2012-01-22 06:45:19 <Joric> he's just a fork
 603 2012-01-22 06:46:00 <Joric> https://github.com/jackjack-jj/pywallet/ forked from joric/pywallet
 604 2012-01-22 06:46:21 <etotheipi_> oh, okay this makes more sense, now
 605 2012-01-22 06:46:30 <Joric> can't say it went in the right direction )
 606 2012-01-22 06:46:51 <Joric> i tried to get rid of all possible dependencies
 607 2012-01-22 06:47:33 <etotheipi_> well I'm going to bed, but I'll help you look at this tomorrow
 608 2012-01-22 06:48:15 <Joric> sadly you cant use pure aes ) it runs 1000 rounds a second, tops, here in this example we need 47135 rounds
 609 2012-01-22 06:48:33 <Joric> *pure python
 610 2012-01-22 06:48:49 roconnor_ has joined
 611 2012-01-22 06:49:01 <etotheipi_> that's why I offloaded that stuff to C++/SWIG
 612 2012-01-22 06:49:22 <Joric> maybe there's a function similar to EVP_BytesToKey didn't check really
 613 2012-01-22 06:49:42 <etotheipi_> again, we'll have to chat tomorrow
 614 2012-01-22 06:52:31 <roconnor_> etotheipi_: I got amory to startup
 615 2012-01-22 06:52:34 <roconnor_> now I'm going to bed
 616 2012-01-22 06:52:39 <etotheipi_> wait, is AES part of the nDerivIterations?  I thought it was just 47135 applications of SHA512
 617 2012-01-22 06:52:49 <etotheipi_> roconnor, fantastic!  I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it
 618 2012-01-22 06:53:07 <roconnor_> etotheipi_: I need to finish making a nix package
 619 2012-01-22 06:53:12 roconnor has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 620 2012-01-22 06:53:15 <roconnor_> but it's almost done
 621 2012-01-22 06:53:20 <Joric> etotheipi_, it's mostly rewritten cpp code, you pass nDerivIterations to EVP_BytesToKey
 622 2012-01-22 06:53:51 <etotheipi_> Joric, I guess I've never looked at the specifics closely enough... I only knew that I had all the functions available in my library (AES CBC, SHA 512)
 623 2012-01-22 06:54:07 <etotheipi_> roconnor_, I'll happily add it to the build-page
 624 2012-01-22 06:54:32 roconnor_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 625 2012-01-22 06:56:22 <gmaxwell> Joric: 47135 rounds is pretty low.. the hard minimum the reference client will use is 25000 ... a reasonably powerful machine should have a few hundred thousand.
 626 2012-01-22 06:56:54 <Joric> that's why i import dlls
 627 2012-01-22 06:57:45 <Joric> there's pycrypto and shit not sure it's better this code is much closer to 'reference'
 628 2012-01-22 06:57:54 <gmaxwell> (one of the harms of people in the extended bitcoin community using python and JS is that they keep making insecure key strenghtening code because their innerloops are insanely slow)
 629 2012-01-22 06:59:20 <Diablo-D3> I should hop back to windows and test this new kernel
 630 2012-01-22 06:59:30 <Joric> i hate python, actually, and hate js even more ) i mostly wrote games, as genjix
 631 2012-01-22 07:00:06 <etotheipi_> is the insecurity due to not getting enough iterations, or something else?
 632 2012-01-22 07:00:28 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: yea, just using so few iterations that it was hardly worth iterating at all.
 633 2012-01-22 07:01:13 <etotheipi_> well for reference, on my system, my KDF does about 500,000 SHA512 ops and uses 32 MB of RAM
 634 2012-01-22 07:01:26 <etotheipi_> in 0.5s
 635 2012-01-22 07:01:27 <gmaxwell> e.g. I saw some determinstic wallet stuff on the forum that did 500 SHA256 on a user provided password. Whoptie do.
 636 2012-01-22 07:02:04 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: sounds fine indeed.
 637 2012-01-22 07:02:08 <etotheipi_> :)
 638 2012-01-22 07:02:22 * Diablo-D3 CANT MAKE THIS ANY FASTER DAMNIT
 639 2012-01-22 07:02:38 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I'm glad I have your approval :)
 640 2012-01-22 07:02:42 <etotheipi_> now it's bedtime
 641 2012-01-22 07:02:44 <etotheipi_> good night
 642 2012-01-22 07:02:44 <Joric> i found sha256('Satoshi Nakamoto') in the blockchain, with 0.00000001 BTC
 643 2012-01-22 07:02:49 <gmaxwell> It's all about the attacker-advantage— if the user uses code that is super slow (because it's JS or something) then he really is in a poor position to give an attacker a hard time.
 644 2012-01-22 07:02:59 <Joric> someone wiped it later, not me )
 645 2012-01-22 07:02:59 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: this pisses me off
 646 2012-01-22 07:03:16 <etotheipi_> (although I have thought about whether it would be worth doing stretching on a phone app)
 647 2012-01-22 07:03:28 <Diablo-D3> I spent all day chasing down, hopefully, what would be an optimization
 648 2012-01-22 07:03:29 <Diablo-D3> its not
 649 2012-01-22 07:03:36 <Diablo-D3> and I dont win
 650 2012-01-22 07:03:45 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt make it any slower, thankfully
 651 2012-01-22 07:03:46 <etotheipi_> well, I mean... I would implement stretching on the phone app, but it might fall into the category you are talking about
 652 2012-01-22 07:03:53 ski_ has joined
 653 2012-01-22 07:04:06 <Diablo-D3> and I think Ill commit it anyhow
 654 2012-01-22 07:04:08 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: if the implementation is reasonably efficient it should still be helpful.
 655 2012-01-22 07:04:19 <Diablo-D3> because it gains like 0.5 mhash
 656 2012-01-22 07:04:29 <Joric> Diablo-D3, don't worry, someone will make it faster after you )
 657 2012-01-22 07:04:52 <Joric> Diablo-D3, is it the opencl innerloop?
 658 2012-01-22 07:05:02 <Diablo-D3> I dont use the loop
 659 2012-01-22 07:05:10 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, strictly speaking, any stretching is better than nothing... and you only have to be good enough for a couple hours before you get home and sweep the phone wallet
 660 2012-01-22 07:05:14 <Diablo-D3> I never could get it to work right without the compiler trying to unloop it
 661 2012-01-22 07:06:10 <etotheipi_> (which is part of my long-term plan... support phone wallets that are monitored-but-locked by Armory, with a big red button that says "I LOST MY PHONE" which will unlock the keys and sweep it)
 662 2012-01-22 07:07:46 dissipate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 663 2012-01-22 07:09:25 <Joric> i fucking love multibit if only it was a little bit more advanced
 664 2012-01-22 07:10:41 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Technically yes. But a few hundred rounds of sha256 don't really discourage someone performing a dictionary attack much. With that little he can easily burn through the most likely passwords with no trouble.
 665 2012-01-22 07:11:27 <Joric> gmaxwell, i did a dictionary attack
 666 2012-01-22 07:11:40 <gmaxwell> Getting up into the few hundred thousand round level you make it so he can't even attempt the most likely and so he won't try.
 667 2012-01-22 07:12:14 <gmaxwell> If your hardware won't let you do that.. oh well. But it's a bit of a sin to fail to do that on hardware that technically can.
 668 2012-01-22 07:12:19 <Joric> all i've got from 1.7m passwords - 'Satoshi Nakamoto' (0.00000001 BTC) and 'fuckyou' (0.025 BTC)
 669 2012-01-22 07:12:54 <gmaxwell> Joric: sure, because most people aren't going to do idiotic things like send btc to passwords, regardless of the KDF.
 670 2012-01-22 07:13:06 <Joric> didn't know it's raw data i'll try to load it entirely into memory, and rekey it the way i want
 671 2012-01-22 07:13:39 <gmaxwell> there is a good chance you've just found a signficant fraction of all bitcoin sent to passwords with plain SHA256 as the KDF. :)
 672 2012-01-22 07:14:18 <Joric> what's KDF?
 673 2012-01-22 07:15:01 <gmaxwell> key derivation function.
 674 2012-01-22 07:15:40 <Joric> gmaxwell, there's a shitload of casascius 22-char one round hashes but they are still 22-char long )
 675 2012-01-22 07:16:07 <Joric> can't bruteforce those
 676 2012-01-22 07:16:29 <gmaxwell> well, that not what I meant by 'password'— not actually random sequences of decent length.
 677 2012-01-22 07:22:12 <CIA-76> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r5e3a2d6 / (2 files in 2 dirs): Increased speed 0.5%, added alt array more (-aa) - http://git.io/jn1jgw https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/commit/5e3a2d63fc97da70030107a2608dda79fac51791
 678 2012-01-22 07:24:12 * Diablo-D3 runs off to windows to DO SCIENCE
 679 2012-01-22 07:25:07 * Diablo-D3 cackles
 680 2012-01-22 07:25:15 <Joric> developing on windows is tough :D guru mode
 681 2012-01-22 07:26:24 <Diablo-D3> well, to be fair, Im not developing on it
 682 2012-01-22 07:26:29 <Diablo-D3> I'm merely using kernel analyzer
 683 2012-01-22 07:28:51 <Diablo-D3> using 12.1
 684 2012-01-22 07:29:07 <Diablo-D3> well, 12.1 preview
 685 2012-01-22 07:30:37 <Joric> with all that mingw/msys stuff looks like some day windows will use sh/bash as a default command line ) i already have to use them more than cmd
 686 2012-01-22 07:30:48 <Diablo-D3> dude, msys is old =P
 687 2012-01-22 07:31:51 <Diablo-D3> newest diapolo: 1394 op, 66.90 cycles, 67 cf on 5870, 1687, 70.29, 66 on 6970
 688 2012-01-22 07:33:23 <Diablo-D3> newest phatk: 1506, 75.22, and 74, 1780, 74.08, and 74
 689 2012-01-22 07:35:22 <Diablo-D3> DM right before this one; 1507, 75.32, and 71, 1697, 70.69, and 70
 690 2012-01-22 07:40:16 <Joric> how many mhashes?
 691 2012-01-22 07:41:14 <Diablo-D3> cant test those
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 694 2012-01-22 07:48:57 <Diablo-D3> newest DM without -aa: same numbers
 695 2012-01-22 07:50:35 <Diablo-D3> with -aa: same numbers =/
 696 2012-01-22 07:53:16 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: sounds a bit odd that you can't measure a difference when it claims something like a 10% reduction in cyclecount.
 697 2012-01-22 07:53:34 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: because I think kernel analyzer is broken shit
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 707 2012-01-22 08:20:23 <CIA-76> bitcoin: jedi95 * r301a24289839 Phoenix-Miner/Miner.py: Forgot to add Miner.py to staged changes http://tinyurl.com/6uyp54d
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 712 2012-01-22 08:40:21 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Kano * rec2c0b784f00 cgminer/ (README adl.c api.c main.c miner.h): Add API commands: config, switchpool, gpu settings, save http://tinyurl.com/8ypnfqz
 713 2012-01-22 08:40:22 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Kano * r899897033f66 cgminer/README: Put back deleted option http://tinyurl.com/7dcxr6j
 714 2012-01-22 08:40:24 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rfa220015990f cgminer/ (README adl.c api.c main.c miner.h): Merge pull request #86 from kanoi/master http://tinyurl.com/6oghebs
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 718 2012-01-22 09:10:36 <wumpus> sipa, kinlo: doxygen docs are at https://dev.visucore.com/bitcoin/doxygen
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 723 2012-01-22 09:30:21 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Kano * rbf5321cf0a51 cgminer/README: API 'save' command details http://tinyurl.com/7wlevfs
 724 2012-01-22 09:30:22 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rda2dd9ef2e2a cgminer/README: Merge pull request #87 from kanoi/master http://tinyurl.com/78xxy4w
 725 2012-01-22 09:50:26 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Midnight Magic * r21633b9bee19 cgminer/util.c: Bringing back TCP_NODELAY, but also ensuring it doesn't conflict with --net-delay : Nagle's may infact delay some packets longer than necessary.. http://tinyurl.com/6ttfv24
 726 2012-01-22 09:50:26 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r8b6514493416 cgminer/util.c: Merge pull request #88 from midnightmagic/gimme_back_tcp_nodelay http://tinyurl.com/6tbqcfh
 727 2012-01-22 09:50:29 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r6442c1aba074 cgminer/ (ocl.c util.c): Style police. http://tinyurl.com/865o37v
 728 2012-01-22 09:50:30 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r91554b93c894 cgminer/NEWS: Update NEWS. http://tinyurl.com/7oqqjnn
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 787 2012-01-22 13:18:32 <dikidera> slush:just wanted to let you know that I imported the DB, had a little issue with the grants, but I fixed that. The next issue is that the block_ids and block_height order got screwed
 788 2012-01-22 13:35:08 <slush> dikidera: how so? It should be fresh import of Abe to clean database...
 789 2012-01-22 13:35:12 <slush> did you fix it somehow?
 790 2012-01-22 13:39:00 <graingert> luke-jr: you seem to be voting against p2sh on http://blockchain.info/p2sh
 791 2012-01-22 13:39:19 <graingert> I was of the understanding that votes could be for, or apathetic
 792 2012-01-22 13:39:26 <graingert> not for or against
 793 2012-01-22 13:41:01 <luke-jr> graingert: against BIP16 specifically
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 796 2012-01-22 13:43:58 <dikidera> slush:sadly, no
 797 2012-01-22 13:45:07 <[Tycho]> Hello.
 798 2012-01-22 13:46:03 <[Tycho]> What's that site ?
 799 2012-01-22 13:46:30 <[Tycho]> Does it means that we should vote AGAINST it explicitly instead of just staying silent ?
 800 2012-01-22 13:46:41 <dikidera> slush:for instance, take a look at this http://i.imgur.com/8P3VS.jpg
 801 2012-01-22 13:47:52 <dikidera> it says block_id 160326 but it's actually block 159544, and it's likely when abe scans to the current block_id, it will stop
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 803 2012-01-22 13:48:46 <slush> dikidera: what's wrong with it?
 804 2012-01-22 13:48:53 <dikidera> I don't know
 805 2012-01-22 13:48:59 <slush> looks fine
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 807 2012-01-22 13:49:31 <dikidera> I assumed that block_id will be the same as block_height
 808 2012-01-22 13:49:38 <slush> no
 809 2012-01-22 13:50:24 <slush> dikidera: because of blockchain splits... there were much more blocks than current blockheight in existence
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 811 2012-01-22 13:50:50 <slush> about the p2sh support... I'm going to support p2sh on my pool in few days
 812 2012-01-22 13:51:09 <[Tycho]> traitor...
 813 2012-01-22 13:51:36 <graingert> as far as I can tell for p2pool is it's up to the individual miner
 814 2012-01-22 13:51:40 <graingert> which is cool
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 816 2012-01-22 13:52:08 <dikidera> slush:Then one last image. http://i.imgur.com/cnPgl.jpg . Does it not seem odd how block_height goes from 159k to 122k?
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 822 2012-01-22 13:55:37 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: no technical difference between silence and against AFAIK, but just in case…
 823 2012-01-22 13:56:19 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: yes, but that site shows it like there IS a difference.
 824 2012-01-22 13:56:37 <luke-jr> hmm
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 827 2012-01-22 13:57:07 <luke-jr> slush: if you want to support P2SH, support BIP 17 instead
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 900 2012-01-22 17:19:38 <roconnor> etotheipi_: do you know what files need to be "installed"
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 902 2012-01-22 17:19:57 <etotheipi_> roconnor, what do yo umean?
 903 2012-01-22 17:20:27 <roconnor> normally after a build step there is an install step that copies the relevent files to an install location
 904 2012-01-22 17:20:38 <etotheipi_> nothing is installed right now
 905 2012-01-22 17:20:44 <etotheipi_> the new cmake stuff will install it
 906 2012-01-22 17:20:49 <roconnor> I noticed :)
 907 2012-01-22 17:20:53 <roconnor> okay I'll wait for that
 908 2012-01-22 17:20:57 <etotheipi_> but for now it just builds _CppBlockUtils.so into the root proj directory
 909 2012-01-22 17:21:18 <etotheipi_> and then ArmoryQt.py imports the CppBlockUtils and armoryengine.py and runs in place
 910 2012-01-22 17:21:41 <etotheipi_> it uses ~/.bitcoin/blk0001.dat and then creates ~/.armory/
 911 2012-01-22 17:21:41 <roconnor> what about the twistedqt directory?
 912 2012-01-22 17:21:56 <etotheipi_> twistedqt dir needs to be removed... it doesn't use anythign in there
 913 2012-01-22 17:22:06 <etotheipi_> that was a temp dir I accidentally commited
 914 2012-01-22 17:22:14 <etotheipi_> (I'll remove it right now)
 915 2012-01-22 17:22:32 <roconnor> so if I copy _CppBlockUtils.so and *.py I should be good?
 916 2012-01-22 17:22:54 <Graet> trying out some new pool software if anyone is able to help, details https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60719.0 cheers
 917 2012-01-22 17:23:04 <etotheipi_> roconnor, I believe that is correct
 918 2012-01-22 17:23:14 <etotheipi_> you don't even need ALL of the .py
 919 2012-01-22 17:23:56 <Mad7Scientist> bitcoin-qt has 56 threads open now
 920 2012-01-22 17:23:57 <etotheipi_> armoryengine, armorymodels, ArmoryQt, CppBlockUtils, qt4reactor, qtdialogs, qtdefines (okay, so that's actually most of them)
 921 2012-01-22 17:25:31 <etotheipi_> I'm battling my last zero-conf bug... then Armory will become a TON more robust
 922 2012-01-22 17:26:14 <etotheipi_> hopefully I'll resolve that today, and then have some time to look at the cmake stuff -- then it might be time for alpha release :)
 923 2012-01-22 17:30:11 <Mad7Scientist> what the heck does status "t" in htop mean?
 924 2012-01-22 17:30:18 <Mad7Scientist> I attached gdb to bitcoin
 925 2012-01-22 17:30:35 <sipa> stopped?
 926 2012-01-22 17:30:42 <Mad7Scientist> oh program received SIGSEGV
 927 2012-01-22 17:30:58 <Mad7Scientist> I gues it didn't like being stopped and started again in gdb
 928 2012-01-22 17:31:10 <Mad7Scientist> wele here we are. bitcoin-qt just crashed in gdb
 929 2012-01-22 17:31:14 <Mad7Scientist> what do I do now
 930 2012-01-22 17:32:37 <cjdelisle> type backtrace
 931 2012-01-22 17:32:45 <cjdelisle> actually I don't know
 932 2012-01-22 17:32:53 * cjdelisle shouldn't be listened to
 933 2012-01-22 17:32:54 <Mad7Scientist> gmaxwell, http://dpaste.com/691863/
 934 2012-01-22 17:33:21 <etotheipi_> heh,  "bt" gets you the callstack, and "frame X" takes you to the X level of the callstack... that's all I know about gdb
 935 2012-01-22 17:33:47 <Mad7Scientist> http://dpaste.com/691864/
 936 2012-01-22 17:35:39 baz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 937 2012-01-22 17:35:48 <Mad7Scientist> Well I'll restart bitcoin. Seems a lot of debugging infromation is missing from that backtrace anyway
 938 2012-01-22 17:36:03 <Mad7Scientist> But then there will be no way to fix this bug :/
 939 2012-01-22 17:36:11 <Mad7Scientist> can I save a core dump?
 940 2012-01-22 17:36:29 <Mad7Scientist> I'll leave it here crashed for a while gmaxwell
 941 2012-01-22 17:37:12 <cjdelisle> leaving it open in gdb is a good plan
 942 2012-01-22 17:37:47 <roconnor> etotheipi_: can you explain how you generate addresses?
 943 2012-01-22 17:38:30 <etotheipi_> M = chaincode XOR hash256(pubkey) --->  PrivKey[i+1] = PrivKey[i] * M (mod N)
 944 2012-01-22 17:39:00 <etotheipi_> (with the capability to use ECC-multiply(M * pubKey)
 945 2012-01-22 17:39:37 <roconnor> do you store the largest i used?
 946 2012-01-22 17:40:25 <etotheipi_> I keep track of the highest one that the user has seen
 947 2012-01-22 17:40:50 <etotheipi_> and I have a method for importing wallets, which searches the blockchain for the highest one used (such as when restoring from paper backup)
 948 2012-01-22 17:42:44 <etotheipi_> the default "gap" is 100 addresses:  I keep that many extra addresses in the pool beyond the highest used, so that I can catch other systems generating addresses for my wallet
 949 2012-01-22 17:43:55 <etotheipi_> (i.e. I give you a watching-only wallet-copy for you to help me collect money, and you generate lots of addresses for people to send money to...as long as there's no gaps of more than 100 addresses, my wallet will find all of them)
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 952 2012-01-22 17:45:29 <onelineproof> bitcoin privkeys in the same wallet are deterministically related?
 953 2012-01-22 17:45:44 <roconnor> etotheipi_: what I don't get is what if I give out 1000 address then I crash, and then I restore, how does the restored wallet know to look upto 1000?
 954 2012-01-22 17:47:56 <etotheipi_> the wallet writes out ALL data before it gives it to the user...
 955 2012-01-22 17:48:06 <etotheipi_> so if you generate 1000 addresses, it will be in the wallet, even if you crash
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 957 2012-01-22 17:48:37 <etotheipi_> if you're talking about multiple systems using the same wallet, then as long as there is one address within the highest-used that received money in the blockchain, it will then stretch out the next 100 and keep looking
 958 2012-01-22 17:48:53 <roconnor> ah
 959 2012-01-22 17:48:59 <etotheipi_> and in the worst-case scenario... some addresses might get re-used... oh well
 960 2012-01-22 17:49:04 <roconnor> so as long as every 1 in 100 wallets appear in the chain somewhere
 961 2012-01-22 17:49:08 <roconnor> I'm good
 962 2012-01-22 17:49:59 <roconnor> I'm not worry about reuse, since I essentially don't believe that bitcoin is anonymous; I'm more concerned about haveing money assigned to me and losing it.
 963 2012-01-22 17:50:19 <roconnor> all this said I fully agree that this system is much better than randomly generated addresses
 964 2012-01-22 17:50:26 <roconnor> I just want to understand what the limits are
 965 2012-01-22 17:51:11 <etotheipi_> I had considered (and maybe still will, in developer mode) provide a function for searching out further
 966 2012-01-22 17:51:14 <sipa> it has one disadvantage (which probably doesn't always weigh up to the advantages): a stolen wallet doesn't get "unstolen" over time
 967 2012-01-22 17:51:15 <roconnor> there is essentially no anonymity with this system
 968 2012-01-22 17:51:26 <etotheipi_> roconnor, there is...
 969 2012-01-22 17:51:41 <etotheipi_> the chaincode is pure entropy... someone needs the chaincode to be able to link your addresses
 970 2012-01-22 17:52:03 <etotheipi_> so if someone steals your watching-only wallet, they can link your addresses together (but can't spend any of it)
 971 2012-01-22 17:52:25 <etotheipi_> which is still an improvement over keeping all your private keys on the online-computer and having the attacker link your addresses *and* steal your money
 972 2012-01-22 17:53:29 <roconnor> let's see, pubkey[i] = (privkey[i]* M) * G
 973 2012-01-22 17:53:41 <roconnor> er
 974 2012-01-22 17:53:43 <roconnor> let's see, pubkey[i] = (privkey[i]) * G
 975 2012-01-22 17:54:14 <roconnor> let's see, pubkey[i+1] = (privkey[i]*M) * G = pubkey[i]*M
 976 2012-01-22 17:54:30 <roconnor> so pubkey[i+1] = pubkey[i]*M
 977 2012-01-22 17:54:55 <roconnor> so if I guess that two address are consecutive, then I can solve for M
 978 2012-01-22 17:54:55 <roconnor> and then compute all public addresses
 979 2012-01-22 17:55:07 <sipa> roconnor: how do you solve the discrete log problem?
 980 2012-01-22 17:55:42 <roconnor> oh duh
 981 2012-01-22 17:55:43 <roconnor> sorry
 982 2012-01-22 17:56:20 <onelineproof> ya but the problem is that if M is found one time, you can find all the other corresponding addresses
 983 2012-01-22 17:56:44 <sipa> somehow i'd feel slightly more safe with privkey[i+1] = privkey[i] * SHA256(chaincode | pubkey[i])
 984 2012-01-22 17:56:56 <etotheipi_> plus M is not the same for every address...
 985 2012-01-22 17:57:03 <onelineproof> so best is to distribute your bitcoins over multiple wallets
 986 2012-01-22 17:57:08 <roconnor> etotheipi_: isn't it
 987 2012-01-22 17:57:16 <roconnor> M = chaincode XOR hash256(pubkey)
 988 2012-01-22 17:57:20 <onelineproof> so if there's a colllision or something, you're safe
 989 2012-01-22 17:57:21 <etotheipi_> M is chaincode XOR hash256(pubkey)
 990 2012-01-22 17:57:34 <roconnor> oh wait
 991 2012-01-22 17:57:38 <sipa> etotheipi_: pubkey[i] or pubkey?
 992 2012-01-22 17:57:38 <roconnor> what is pubkey?
 993 2012-01-22 17:57:41 <etotheipi_> pubkey[i]
 994 2012-01-22 17:57:43 <sipa> ooh
 995 2012-01-22 17:57:44 <sipa> good
 996 2012-01-22 17:57:54 <roconnor> might as well ask, what is chaincode?
 997 2012-01-22 17:57:58 <etotheipi_> I did that to make the problem a little less linear
 998 2012-01-22 17:58:01 <etotheipi_> "Linear"
 999 2012-01-22 17:58:32 <etotheipi_> even though it should technically still be secure to use the same M for every address extension, I decided why not add a little (a lot) extra entropy to it
1000 2012-01-22 17:58:42 <onelineproof> can I ask, why do the bitcoin clients choose to do this? Why not generate an independent privkey for each address?
1001 2012-01-22 17:58:56 <sipa> onelineproof: the satoshi client does that
1002 2012-01-22 17:59:08 <roconnor> onelineproof: backing up is easier for etotheipi_'s system.
1003 2012-01-22 17:59:10 <onelineproof> ok, but 0.5.2?
1004 2012-01-22 17:59:12 <etotheipi_> onelineproof, because when you create your wallet, you can print/save a backup of your wallet and it NEVER has to be done again
1005 2012-01-22 17:59:14 <sipa> this has disadvantages, such as old backups becoming outdated
1006 2012-01-22 17:59:30 <onelineproof> o ok...
1007 2012-01-22 17:59:36 <etotheipi_> you can use 1 million addresses in this wallet, and the backup you made 2 years ago still works
1008 2012-01-22 17:59:50 <roconnor> etotheipi_: if you used 1 out of 100 of those 1 million addresses
1009 2012-01-22 18:00:08 <sipa> with the disadvantage that someone steeling your wallet without you knowing it, can use it 2 years in the future to steal all your money
1010 2012-01-22 18:00:15 <etotheipi_> roconnor, that part is customizable
1011 2012-01-22 18:00:18 <roconnor> though ya, with a user option you can still recover teh 1million addresses even if they aren't used.
1012 2012-01-22 18:00:20 <roconnor> right
1013 2012-01-22 18:00:23 <onelineproof> I think it's better to do a backup of each independent priv key.. in encrypted format and in paper format
1014 2012-01-22 18:00:36 <onelineproof> like on QR for paper
1015 2012-01-22 18:00:38 <sipa> onelineproof: possible, but inconvenient
1016 2012-01-22 18:00:45 <etotheipi_> if you do enough transaction volume that you run the risk of giving out lots of addresses that won't actually receive money, you can increase it to 1/10000
1017 2012-01-22 18:01:25 <etotheipi_> onelineproof, Armory does exactly that... but the individual key backup is really only for imported keys or exporting to a different client
1018 2012-01-22 18:01:49 <etotheipi_> if you have the initial parameters of the wallet and you know the algorithm for it, there's no reason to backup the individual keys
1019 2012-01-22 18:01:57 <onelineproof> i made my own program cwallet to qr code my private keys from my wallet.dat :)
1020 2012-01-22 18:02:01 baz has joined
1021 2012-01-22 18:02:18 <roconnor> etotheipi_: will amory broadcast transactions that are unrelated to your wallet if I paste it in?
1022 2012-01-22 18:02:26 <roconnor> *unrelated to my wallet
1023 2012-01-22 18:02:27 <etotheipi_> yes
1024 2012-01-22 18:02:31 <roconnor> ok
1025 2012-01-22 18:02:55 <etotheipi_> the only problem is that I don't support hex/binary tx pasting yet... only BIP 0010 formatted transactions
1026 2012-01-22 18:03:16 <etotheipi_> actaully, perhaps I'll add a little dialog in developer mode just for that
1027 2012-01-22 18:03:18 <roconnor> I don't really see why that is a problem, but okay
1028 2012-01-22 18:04:05 <etotheipi_> because some developers might be doing their-own-thing, generating transactions, and want to broadcast them to find out if they work (or are doing something creative offline)
1029 2012-01-22 18:04:19 <etotheipi_> if they haven't implemented BIP 0010, then they can't do it
1030 2012-01-22 18:04:26 <roconnor> can't they use BIP 0010?
1031 2012-01-22 18:04:30 <roconnor> ah
1032 2012-01-22 18:05:02 <etotheipi_> they can... but it's kind of silly when Armory will just convert the BIP 0010 tx back into binary to broadcast it anyway
1033 2012-01-22 18:06:57 <etotheipi_> or I could just add a link to: http://bitsend.rowit.co.uk/
1034 2012-01-22 18:07:17 <roconnor> does bitsend use BIP 0010?
1035 2012-01-22 18:07:21 <etotheipi_> no
1036 2012-01-22 18:07:37 <etotheipi_> Armory is the only system that uses it... when I proposed BIP 0010 I got a hard time about how it's pointless if no one is using it
1037 2012-01-22 18:07:49 <etotheipi_> which I thought defeated the purpose of a "proposal"
1038 2012-01-22 18:09:05 <etotheipi_> strangely, Gavin was the only one excited about BIP 0010, everyone else seems to just ignore it
1039 2012-01-22 18:09:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: ignoring it doesn't mean not interested :)
1040 2012-01-22 18:09:34 <roconnor> I think it is very nice; though I haven't read it in detail
1041 2012-01-22 18:09:37 <etotheipi_> genjix even removed it from the BIPs
1042 2012-01-22 18:09:45 <etotheipi_> I had to lobby him to add it back in
1043 2012-01-22 18:10:49 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, pointed out a way to make it more secure, so I'll have to update it... but hopefully Armory will demonstrate its power and it can be evolved to meet the needs of all interested parties
1044 2012-01-22 18:11:00 <roconnor> etotheipi_: please do
1045 2012-01-22 18:12:49 Insti has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1046 2012-01-22 18:16:02 <etotheipi_> I think it would be great for anonymity, if a lot of different people implemented the bitsend functionality, but with SSL, and then it will, 90% of the time, forward your tx to another such website via SSL
1047 2012-01-22 18:16:13 <etotheipi_> so there would be an average of 10, encrypted hops
1048 2012-01-22 18:16:15 De_Lemming has joined
1049 2012-01-22 18:16:29 <sipa> aka tor?
1050 2012-01-22 18:16:31 <etotheipi_> the tx would then appear on the network from a completely random location
1051 2012-01-22 18:16:32 * seco wonders if there is a deterministic way to track an ip-address down who sent or received coins in the network, unless your peers the client connects to are infected, and do log.
1052 2012-01-22 18:16:49 <etotheipi_> sipa, yes... but without needing tor support
1053 2012-01-22 18:17:06 <etotheipi_> tor can raise all sorts of red flags... SSL is used everyday by everyone
1054 2012-01-22 18:17:06 <sipa> etotheipi_: so, duplicating tor functionality, for a specific purpose only?
1055 2012-01-22 18:17:50 <etotheipi_> then of course... making an SSL connection to one of these websites would probably raise the same red flags... so I guess it's pointless
1056 2012-01-22 18:19:48 <sipa> phantomcircuit: http://www.cypherpunk.at/onioncat/wiki/GarliCat
1057 2012-01-22 18:20:05 <sipa> phantomcircuit: seems there is an analogue of onioncat for i2p
1058 2012-01-22 18:20:20 <phantomcircuit> sipa, not surprising
1059 2012-01-22 18:20:34 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i wouldn't support it immediately, but making its ipv6 range routable at the same time ipv6 support is added, wouldn't harm, imho
1060 2012-01-22 18:21:14 <phantomcircuit> etotheipi_, tor uses ssl, they are indistinguishable from one another without active probing
1061 2012-01-22 18:21:24 <phantomcircuit> (or the use of a tor node list)
1062 2012-01-22 18:21:45 <etotheipi_> oh, apparently I don't know much about tor
1063 2012-01-22 18:22:16 <etotheipi_> I was under the impression that your connection to the tor network was obvious if someone is watching you
1064 2012-01-22 18:22:33 <etotheipi_> or that it woudl be easy to detect such connections
1065 2012-01-22 18:22:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: bitcoind has a built-in base64 encoder and decoder, by the way
1066 2012-01-22 18:23:03 <sipa> phantomcircuit: shouldn't be hard to adapt it to base32
1067 2012-01-22 18:23:08 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah
1068 2012-01-22 18:23:21 <phantomcircuit> that's just the kind of work i dont particularly enjoy :)
1069 2012-01-22 18:24:31 <etotheipi_> roconnor, so did you ever get Armory running?
1070 2012-01-22 18:30:16 <sipa> phantomcircuit: tor uses RFC 4648, right?
1071 2012-01-22 18:33:01 Insti has joined
1072 2012-01-22 18:33:56 <phantomcircuit> sipa, let me double check
1073 2012-01-22 18:34:35 <phantomcircuit> i think so?
1074 2012-01-22 18:35:43 <phantomcircuit> #define BASE32_CHARS "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz234567"
1075 2012-01-22 18:35:52 <BlueMatt> Joric: did you ever get an answer to Joric> BlueMatt, are you here? check out decryption am i doing it right? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1Z3c8BCP
1076 2012-01-22 18:36:59 Karmaon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1077 2012-01-22 18:37:06 <BlueMatt> sipa: is tx 70f7c15c6f62139cc41afa858894650344eda9975b46656d893ee59df8914a3d a compressed pubkey one?
1078 2012-01-22 18:37:14 <BlueMatt> or some other non-standard pubkey encoding?
1079 2012-01-22 18:38:47 <sipa> BlueMatt: looks very normal to me
1080 2012-01-22 18:38:57 <BlueMatt> odd, oh well
1081 2012-01-22 18:39:00 <sipa> its txin has a non-compressed pubkey
1082 2012-01-22 18:39:08 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yes but without support for padding
1083 2012-01-22 18:39:52 <Joric> BlueMatt, nope
1084 2012-01-22 18:40:07 <phantomcircuit> wait maybe it does support padding
1085 2012-01-22 18:40:11 <Joric> BlueMatt, i'm compiling 0.5.99 gonna trace down those keys
1086 2012-01-22 18:40:27 <sipa> phantomcircuit: a tor address is what, 80 bits?
1087 2012-01-22 18:40:40 <sipa> phantomcircuit: that would not require any padding in base32
1088 2012-01-22 18:40:56 <phantomcircuit> sipa, correct
1089 2012-01-22 18:41:20 <phantomcircuit> it's a base32 encoded string following rfc 4648 but without padding support because it fits perfect
1090 2012-01-22 18:41:41 <sipa> phantomcircuit: let me do a clean-room implementation of rfc 4648
1091 2012-01-22 18:41:43 bagit has joined
1092 2012-01-22 18:43:07 <phantomcircuit> sipa, let you? by all means :)
1093 2012-01-22 18:48:49 <phantomcircuit> sipa, btw i have been considering a few things
1094 2012-01-22 18:49:27 <phantomcircuit> i realized that there is absolutely no reason to flush to disk when downloading and organizing the blockchain unless you encounter a transactions which interacts with your wallet
1095 2012-01-22 18:49:46 <phantomcircuit> a change like that could significantly improve performance with minimal increased risk
1096 2012-01-22 18:49:55 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, ^
1097 2012-01-22 18:50:13 <sipa> phantomcircuit: not easily doable, i'm afraid
1098 2012-01-22 18:50:22 b4epoche_ has joined
1099 2012-01-22 18:50:24 b4epoche has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1100 2012-01-22 18:50:25 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
1101 2012-01-22 18:50:29 <sipa> the block verification algorithm relies on db transactions
1102 2012-01-22 18:50:30 <phantomcircuit> as it stands i tend to run bitcoind on my workstation on a tmpfs and dump the wallet.dat file to real disk periodically
1103 2012-01-22 18:50:43 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ah
1104 2012-01-22 18:50:46 <phantomcircuit> that's unfortunate
1105 2012-01-22 18:51:37 <sipa> indeed
1106 2012-01-22 18:51:46 <sipa> it could be changed, but it's not trivial at least
1107 2012-01-22 18:51:52 Karmaon has joined
1108 2012-01-22 18:53:28 <graingert> etotheipi_: could be worse
1109 2012-01-22 18:53:36 <Joric> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyzDY7NUOo&gl=US 'Making Casascius coins' :D
1110 2012-01-22 18:53:43 <graingert> arg stale scroll back
1111 2012-01-22 18:53:50 <phantomcircuit> graingert, lol
1112 2012-01-22 18:54:51 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
1113 2012-01-22 18:57:36 <roconnor> etotheipi_: ya, I'm trying to transfer some money to my Armory wallet now
1114 2012-01-22 18:58:00 <roconnor> (on testnet)
1115 2012-01-22 18:58:22 Diablo-D3 has joined
1116 2012-01-22 19:02:14 <etotheipi_> testnet has been a little frustrating for testing send/rcv transactions
1117 2012-01-22 19:02:23 <roconnor> it works in bursts :D
1118 2012-01-22 19:02:35 <etotheipi_> I should probably just set up my own miner... but I never spent the time to figure out how to switch my GPUs over
1119 2012-01-22 19:02:53 <etotheipi_> btw, is anyone else heating their whole place with their miners?
1120 2012-01-22 19:03:12 <etotheipi_> nothign makes me happier than the fact that it's 25 deg and I haven't turned on my heat once this winter
1121 2012-01-22 19:03:15 <roconnor> I'm tempted to switch my winter heating to miner heating
1122 2012-01-22 19:03:40 <etotheipi_> (running 10 GPUs in a 1200 sqft condo)
1123 2012-01-22 19:03:54 <roconnor> but supposedly heat pump are more efficent
1124 2012-01-22 19:04:05 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: its on my todo list for post-merge of cblockstore
1125 2012-01-22 19:04:13 <BlueMatt> (as cblockstore will make it a bit easier)
1126 2012-01-22 19:04:26 De_Lemming has quit (Quit: De_Lemming)
1127 2012-01-22 19:04:31 <nanotube> roconnor: yes but does a heatpump generate you bitcoins? :)
1128 2012-01-22 19:04:35 <BlueMatt> (that and downloading headers before downloading blocks to avoid the fill-disk-with-orphan-blocks attack)
1129 2012-01-22 19:05:12 De_Lemming has joined
1130 2012-01-22 19:05:30 <roconnor> you'd think the price of Bitcoin would fall during winter months :D
1131 2012-01-22 19:06:17 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1132 2012-01-22 19:06:19 <nanotube> no, you'd only think that difficulty would rise, for a given price :)
1133 2012-01-22 19:07:33 <CIA-76> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * re799305 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Fix ozco.in specific bug - http://git.io/rZ5h7A https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/commit/e79930544910f3a1b7a7061cd213fb5191f53872
1134 2012-01-22 19:07:49 <etotheipi_> my 24 year-old HVAC (heatpump) is ridiculously inefficient... not to mention the fact that heatpumps get extremely inefficient when the outside temp drops below freezing
1135 2012-01-22 19:08:32 <BlueMatt> people should start mining more to heat their houses ;)
1136 2012-01-22 19:08:39 <Diablo-D3> heat pumps are inefficient when your liquid freezes.
1137 2012-01-22 19:09:35 <etotheipi_> though, my gf is not particularly please about my "queen" miner making noise in the corner of the bedroom :)
1138 2012-01-22 19:09:39 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: too bad my miners are all low-heat now :/
1139 2012-01-22 19:09:44 <etotheipi_> but she likes the heat, so she puts up with it
1140 2012-01-22 19:10:06 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: heh, sucks for you I guess
1141 2012-01-22 19:10:14 <BlueMatt> (unless you feel like saving money...)
1142 2012-01-22 19:10:18 <etotheipi_> luke-jr, did you switch to FPGAs?
1143 2012-01-22 19:10:59 <k9quaint> I prefer my miners out in the garage running at < 50degC :)
1144 2012-01-22 19:11:04 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: yeah, pretty  much
1145 2012-01-22 19:11:43 <roconnor> etotheipi_: presumably your heatpump is more effiecent than your miners (at heating)
1146 2012-01-22 19:11:52 <etotheipi_> k9quaint, perhaps you can correct me if I'm wrong, but if the GPU is running below 75c I didn't think it really mattered (longevity-wise)
1147 2012-01-22 19:12:05 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: you got many BFL units ? :)
1148 2012-01-22 19:12:21 <etotheipi_> roconnor, heat pumps are pretty inefficient when it gets really cold
1149 2012-01-22 19:13:19 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I'm not disclosing my FPGA volume at this time.
1150 2012-01-22 19:13:22 <etotheipi_> that's what "emergency heat" is for... below something like 20 deg F, the heatpump really just sucks energy without providing a ton of heat
1151 2012-01-22 19:13:30 <nanotube> so iow, they only work well when you don't really need them, etotheipi_ ? :)
1152 2012-01-22 19:13:41 <[Tycho]> Oh, well, just one is good too.
1153 2012-01-22 19:13:55 <k9quaint> etotheipi_: it matters for efficiency
1154 2012-01-22 19:14:31 <roconnor> etotheipi_: I can't imagine them dropping much below 100% efficency.
1155 2012-01-22 19:14:45 <etotheipi_> on the other hand, the miners are 100% efficient at converting KW to heat year-round (maybe 99.5% if you consider the light and noise)
1156 2012-01-22 19:15:20 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1157 2012-01-22 19:16:18 <etotheipi_> roconnor, I'm pretty sure it does drop below 100%, or else you wouldn't need emergency heat
1158 2012-01-22 19:16:28 <etotheipi_> and it's why heatpumps aren't really used in colder climates
1159 2012-01-22 19:16:48 paraipan has joined
1160 2012-01-22 19:16:51 <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/katmagic/Shallot
1161 2012-01-22 19:16:52 <Diablo-D3> OOH
1162 2012-01-22 19:18:57 <gmaxwell> roconnor: The compressor is outside.
1163 2012-01-22 19:19:00 <gmaxwell> (usually)
1164 2012-01-22 19:19:02 <Joric> just built 0.5.99 bitcoin-qt with dependencies stated in docs oddly it refuses to launch, had to delete database
1165 2012-01-22 19:19:09 <roconnor> gmaxwell: pfft
1166 2012-01-22 19:19:14 <roconnor> is that cause it is noisy?
1167 2012-01-22 19:19:21 <Joric> didn't help, still won't work
1168 2012-01-22 19:19:33 <Joric> DbEnv::open: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
1169 2012-01-22 19:19:49 <Joric> db-4.8.30.NC
1170 2012-01-22 19:20:01 <gmaxwell> roconnor: yes, and if you're running it in the other direction (to cool) you want the waste heat outside!
1171 2012-01-22 19:20:11 <luke-jr> is db recovery automatable?
1172 2012-01-22 19:20:38 <gmaxwell> Joric: thats what happen if you were previously running on db-5.x IIRC
1173 2012-01-22 19:20:56 <roconnor> gmaxwell: okay, no wonder it is inefficent
1174 2012-01-22 19:20:58 <Joric> i deleted bitcoin homedir completely, didn't help
1175 2012-01-22 19:21:13 Clipse has joined
1176 2012-01-22 19:22:21 <Joric> latest qt + its own mingw (4.4), boost 1.47, openssl 1.0.0e
1177 2012-01-22 19:23:52 <sipa> phantomcircuit: damn, base32 is harder than it looks :(
1178 2012-01-22 19:24:00 <phantomcircuit> heh
1179 2012-01-22 19:24:47 <Joric> does anyone by chance have qtgui_deps for 0.5.2+ old ones won't fit
1180 2012-01-22 19:25:29 <CIA-76> bitcoin: p2k * r7b231dc6b35a ecoinpool/apps/ecoinpool/src/ecoinpool_rpc.erl: Added Support for Crappy Mining Software http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/ecoinpool.git/commitdiff/7b231dc6b35aac46839ecbae292a133c41800f32
1181 2012-01-22 19:25:40 <gmaxwell> Joric: /window 218
1182 2012-01-22 19:25:42 <gmaxwell> oops
1183 2012-01-22 19:26:34 Detritus has joined
1184 2012-01-22 19:27:08 <Joric> have to built all dependencies from source maybe did something wrong
1185 2012-01-22 19:27:37 <Joric> *had to build
1186 2012-01-22 19:31:04 <Joric> 0.5.99 uses boost 1.47 (assign lib) but *.pro is linking to libboost_system-mgw44-mt-1_43.a and such
1187 2012-01-22 19:32:20 <Joric> undefined reference to `CoInitialize@4' - had to add -lole32 -luuid
1188 2012-01-22 19:32:35 De_Lemming has left ()
1189 2012-01-22 19:34:07 Graet is now known as Graet_
1190 2012-01-22 19:38:04 kish is now known as kish--
1191 2012-01-22 19:38:33 <sipa> phantomcircuit: see my 'base32' branch, including unit tests :)
1192 2012-01-22 19:39:59 kish-- is now known as kish
1193 2012-01-22 19:46:12 <sipa> [Tycho]: if not enough /P2SH/ coinbases are seen, it won't be deployed; a /NOP2SH/ doesn't matter at all
1194 2012-01-22 19:47:16 <[Tycho]> Yes, I just pointed that to piuk and then he added "no vote" field.
1195 2012-01-22 19:47:43 <sipa> also, may i ask why you don't support it?
1196 2012-01-22 19:50:54 <luke-jr> the better question is why anyone would support it
1197 2012-01-22 19:51:07 <luke-jr> there used to be the "nothing better" argument. but now we have BIP 17
1198 2012-01-22 19:51:32 <sipa> luke-jr: i knew your opinion already, thanks
1199 2012-01-22 19:52:25 <luke-jr> the only argument for BIP 16 now seems to be "let's make Gavin a monarch"
1200 2012-01-22 19:52:42 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: You discredit yourself with stupid arguments like that.
1201 2012-01-22 19:53:02 <luke-jr> it's not stupid, it's the truth
1202 2012-01-22 19:53:09 <gmaxwell> Just because you are enamored with your own arguments and are indifferent to the arguments for BIP 16 doesn't mean that other people don't see it differently.
1203 2012-01-22 19:53:40 <luke-jr> if there are arguments for BIP 16, let's hear them
1204 2012-01-22 19:54:16 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: why dont you support bip 16, btw?
1205 2012-01-22 19:54:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Gavin gave a list of arguments between 16/17 that I thought were pretty good.
1206 2012-01-22 19:54:52 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60433.0
1207 2012-01-22 19:55:03 <sipa> luke-jr: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60433.0; quoting yourself "This is indeed a benefit, ... but I personally ..."
1208 2012-01-22 19:55:11 <[Tycho]> sipa: first: I see that we don't have a consensus here, so I think that we should implement plain multisig and long-address multisigs first, and THEN progress to advanced things like pay-to-scripts.
1209 2012-01-22 19:55:12 <phantomcircuit> sipa, you're going to cry when you see the tor base32 decode
1210 2012-01-22 19:55:58 <[Tycho]> Gavin says that he rushes about P2SH because he wants to implement 2-factor auth. Ok, plain multisig and long-address multisig will both allow this and even escrow services.
1211 2012-01-22 19:56:03 <luke-jr> sipa: OP_EVAL has the same benefit. so it's not specific to BIP 16. ;)
1212 2012-01-22 19:56:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Your argument consistes mostly of this "it's special casing magic"  and I can't get over this mental image of some autistic railroad geek being very insistant that his train timetables be laid out in a particular order.  All things equal, being less 'special case' is good because it makes for simpler code... but it's not a quality worth upholding in and of itself when it doesn't do that.
1213 2012-01-22 19:56:41 <[Tycho]> I'm not yet supporting luke-jr's CHS too.
1214 2012-01-22 19:56:51 <sipa> [Tycho]: agree, that's a reasonable argument
1215 2012-01-22 19:57:18 <[Tycho]> I think that we don't really need to do in in such a hurry.
1216 2012-01-22 19:57:23 <[Tycho]> *it
1217 2012-01-22 19:57:42 <[Tycho]> This already resulted in compromised OP_EVAL implementation.
1218 2012-01-22 19:58:02 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: This 'hurry' meme is bullshit, Gavin started on the pay-to-script route in .. what.. october?
1219 2012-01-22 19:58:26 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: Fine, let's go with OP_EVAL then.
1220 2012-01-22 19:58:29 <sipa> phantomcircuit: how so?
1221 2012-01-22 19:58:38 <luke-jr> OP_EVAL started in October. Not BIP 16.
1222 2012-01-22 19:58:43 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's about 5 loc
1223 2012-01-22 19:58:46 <BlueMatt> by the time 0.6 comes out, bip 16 will have been implemented for like a month
1224 2012-01-22 19:59:00 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, because it will not get majority miner support.
1225 2012-01-22 19:59:16 <luke-jr> oh, you don't mean live-implemented
1226 2012-01-22 19:59:18 <luke-jr> nm
1227 2012-01-22 19:59:29 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: This road began in October. It's not gavin's fault that people keep blowing up the road in the last mine and causing detours, but it doesn't appear that there is any end in sight for that.
1228 2012-01-22 19:59:47 <[Tycho]> We can implement normal multisigs and then, after coming up with good pay-to-script scheme they will be just moved into that script.
1229 2012-01-22 19:59:48 <gmaxwell> s/last mine/last mile/
1230 2012-01-22 20:00:22 <sipa> phantomcircuit: meh :)
1231 2012-01-22 20:00:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: OP_EVAL is better than BIP 16
1232 2012-01-22 20:00:50 <Joric> managed to build 0.5.1 with old deps archive, without miniupnpc :]
1233 2012-01-22 20:00:55 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: as far as I can tell that unless someone draws a deadline this process will never converge because there will always be some NEXT guy who's great idea was left out who will obstruct progress unless it goes his way.
1234 2012-01-22 20:00:56 <phantomcircuit> sipa, heh
1235 2012-01-22 20:01:15 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: I ported Gavin's OP_EVAL to my code in expected timeframe and started to "vote" for it before the decision-making date. So it wasn't we who delayed this.
1236 2012-01-22 20:01:51 <[Tycho]> ...and then it was discovered to be exploitable.
1237 2012-01-22 20:02:05 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I don't mind a deadline. I don't mind OP_EVAL. I don't mind CHV. I do mind BIP 16.
1238 2012-01-22 20:02:20 <sipa> luke-jr: that's your full right
1239 2012-01-22 20:02:29 <sipa> luke-jr: but other may or may not mind other combinations
1240 2012-01-22 20:02:37 <BlueMatt> what do you hate so much about bip 16, other than the special-case thing?
1241 2012-01-22 20:02:38 <sipa> and we are trying to reach a consensus here
1242 2012-01-22 20:02:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: he doesn't
1243 2012-01-22 20:02:52 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the special-case thing destroys Bitcoin's sanity.
1244 2012-01-22 20:02:59 <sipa> oh come on please
1245 2012-01-22 20:03:09 <sipa> there is nothing sane anymore about the scripting language itself
1246 2012-01-22 20:03:12 <sipa> given its history
1247 2012-01-22 20:03:24 <luke-jr> it's still a scripting language.
1248 2012-01-22 20:03:24 <[Tycho]> sipa: as for the BIP16 specifically: 1) I don't like special cases. We should either have a normal scripting or just fixed signatures/keys without all this "OP_DUP" and so on. 2) I don't like serialized form of the script.
1249 2012-01-22 20:03:33 <luke-jr> that is no longer true with BIP 16
1250 2012-01-22 20:03:39 <gmaxwell> Worse, luke-jr offered to accept BIP16 so long as he was promised that other txn types would go away in Bitcoin 2.0.
1251 2012-01-22 20:03:46 <gmaxwell> Which just shows how thin his opposition is.
1252 2012-01-22 20:03:59 <Joric> where is 0.5.2 by the way? i don't see it in tags
1253 2012-01-22 20:04:01 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I don't consider that a fair representation of my suggestion there.
1254 2012-01-22 20:04:04 <luke-jr> Joric: stable repo
1255 2012-01-22 20:04:28 <sipa> [Tycho]: you don't like the serializer form? you mean the fact that it needs serialization, or the way it is serialized?
1256 2012-01-22 20:04:38 <[Tycho]> sipa: the fact.
1257 2012-01-22 20:04:53 <[Tycho]> But that is less important to me than "special-casing".
1258 2012-01-22 20:05:32 <etotheipi_> for what it's worth, I disapprove of anything that isn't extraordinarily well-thought out and tested to hell, mainly because there is NO POINT to taking even the slightest risk when we already have multi-sig available to us without any of the new OP_EVAL/P2SH/etc (even if it is sub-optimal)
1259 2012-01-22 20:06:03 <[Tycho]> To me it looks like we have a "C" programming language that can be compiled and run, but only if the program is either "Hello world" or factorial calculation, nothing else. Why bother with compilation then ? :)
1260 2012-01-22 20:06:25 <sipa> i was initially against the special casing as well, until i started seeing it not as a scriptPubKey, but as a code in the transaction that says "actual script is in input instead of output"
1261 2012-01-22 20:06:41 <etotheipi_> it's a $40 million *thing* that could come crashing down if a hole is found... I think consensus SHOULD be reached (at least about security, not about "best")
1262 2012-01-22 20:06:43 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: er, the executed script can be whatever.
1263 2012-01-22 20:07:00 <BlueMatt> if you start from the idea that in the future every tx will be p2sh, then the special casing doesnt bother me as much...
1264 2012-01-22 20:07:03 <phantomcircuit> a CAddress is a CService is a CNetAddr which defines explicit CNetAddr(const char *pszIp, bool fAllowLookup = false);
1265 2012-01-22 20:07:10 <luke-jr> sipa: but that's not what BIP 16 says.
1266 2012-01-22 20:07:26 <phantomcircuit> OOH dont have USE_IPV6 set
1267 2012-01-22 20:07:27 <phantomcircuit> nvm
1268 2012-01-22 20:07:35 <[Tycho]> etotheipi_: yes. The OP_EVAL exploit also shows that it wasn't tested well. And now we have even less mature proposal.
1269 2012-01-22 20:07:38 lyspooner has joined
1270 2012-01-22 20:07:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: BIP 16 does not recommend or encourage using P2SH for everything, either
1271 2012-01-22 20:07:52 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: No, I'm talking about parent script.
1272 2012-01-22 20:07:54 <sipa> [Tycho]: but it has had about 10x as much discussion as OP_EVAL had
1273 2012-01-22 20:08:10 <[Tycho]> It's not a discussion.
1274 2012-01-22 20:08:17 <sipa> ?
1275 2012-01-22 20:08:19 <BlueMatt> ???
1276 2012-01-22 20:08:21 <[Tycho]> May be.
1277 2012-01-22 20:08:28 <gmaxwell> BIP 16's implementation is a lot simpler than OP_EVAL, this is part of the argument for it.
1278 2012-01-22 20:09:13 <[Tycho]> sipa: what about my proposal about implementing plain multisigs and long addresses first and moving them into p2s next time ?
1279 2012-01-22 20:09:18 <luke-jr> the only discussion lately seems to be people objective to BIP 16, and Gavin ignoring the objections.
1280 2012-01-22 20:09:22 <luke-jr> objecting*
1281 2012-01-22 20:09:26 <sipa> [Tycho]: i wouldn't mind doing that
1282 2012-01-22 20:09:44 <[Tycho]> This should allow us to use all 2f-auth and escrow and give more time to decide on the p2s system.
1283 2012-01-22 20:09:45 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: no, you objecting making arguments that gavin has dismissed and you insisting he is ignoring you
1284 2012-01-22 20:09:50 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: BIP 17's implementation is about 8 times simpler than BIP 16's
1285 2012-01-22 20:09:54 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1286 2012-01-22 20:09:54 <Joric> how much time it takes to rebuild blkindex.dat? it says downloading blocks hope it's not for real
1287 2012-01-22 20:10:09 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: dismissing arguments doesn't make them non-arguments.
1288 2012-01-22 20:10:09 * BlueMatt -> watch game
1289 2012-01-22 20:10:16 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r22adee021d36 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCOrderBook/ (plugin.py test.py): OTCOrderBook: make 'remove' require an orderid, to avoid people accidentally clobbering their entire book. http://tinyurl.com/8xt7y8v
1290 2012-01-22 20:10:18 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r34136f1f4dfe supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCOrderBook/plugin.py: OTCOrderBook: stream also order removals to -otc-ticker http://tinyurl.com/6u37deb
1291 2012-01-22 20:10:24 <BlueMatt> he has argued against them, though I see the point, you cant say he is ignoring you
1292 2012-01-22 20:10:25 * BlueMatt -> watch game
1293 2012-01-22 20:10:36 <sipa> luke-jr: you dismissing Gavin's argument also doesn't make them non-arguments
1294 2012-01-22 20:11:03 <luke-jr> sipa: I don't dismiss them. I answer them, and explain why they aren't arguments.
1295 2012-01-22 20:12:19 <sipa> in your opinion
1296 2012-01-22 20:13:31 <luke-jr> a code in the transaction that says "actual script is in input instead of output" <-- that's an interpretation that has been rejected by the BIP
1297 2012-01-22 20:15:08 <sipa> i see neither rejection nor suggestion in the BIP about that interpretation
1298 2012-01-22 20:15:26 <sipa> it is my own, and it is why i personally do not feel the special case in BIP16 to be a problem
1299 2012-01-22 20:17:36 <phantomcircuit> error: no matching function for call to ‘CAddress::CAddress(const char [8])’
1300 2012-01-22 20:17:59 <phantomcircuit> CAddress -> CService -> CNetAddr::CNetAddr(const char *pszIp, bool fAllowLookup = false);
1301 2012-01-22 20:18:05 <phantomcircuit> or am i missing something here?
1302 2012-01-22 20:19:57 eoss has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1303 2012-01-22 20:21:34 <phantomcircuit> anybody :(
1304 2012-01-22 20:21:44 <phantomcircuit> i swear i haven't lot my mind
1305 2012-01-22 20:22:04 <sipa> phantomcircuit: sorry, i'm not familiar with all details of C++ automtatic type conversion
1306 2012-01-22 20:22:14 <etotheipi_> along the lines of what [Tycho] said, I don't understand why regular multi-sig can't be implemented first (which enables everything we want), and then work out the OP_EVAL/P2SH stuff afterwards at a more-comfortable pace
1307 2012-01-22 20:22:52 <sipa> phantomcircuit: try CAddress(&str[0]), or pass in a string instead of a const char [8] ?
1308 2012-01-22 20:22:57 <etotheipi_> OP_MULTISIG is already part of the protocol, it's tested, it's secure, and it's pretty much ready to go... the only issues seems to be that it's suboptimal
1309 2012-01-22 20:23:20 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i cast to (const char*) and it wasn't finding it
1310 2012-01-22 20:23:25 <phantomcircuit> possibly something is brokeded
1311 2012-01-22 20:23:40 <sipa> phantomcircuit: howhow, wait
1312 2012-01-22 20:23:47 <sipa> phantomcircuit: constructors aren't inherited
1313 2012-01-22 20:24:36 p0s has joined
1314 2012-01-22 20:24:54 <phantomcircuit> oh
1315 2012-01-22 20:25:08 <phantomcircuit>  CAddress(CService("0.0.0.0",0))
1316 2012-01-22 20:25:09 <phantomcircuit> heh
1317 2012-01-22 20:25:24 <TuxBlackEdo> so how exactly do bitcoin script stacks work?
1318 2012-01-22 20:25:33 <luke-jr> like normal stacks
1319 2012-01-22 20:25:35 <luke-jr> …
1320 2012-01-22 20:25:38 <lianj> ^^
1321 2012-01-22 20:25:38 <sipa> TuxBlackEdo: you push things on them, and pop things from them
1322 2012-01-22 20:25:39 <TuxBlackEdo> and why do all transactions have OP_DUP?
1323 2012-01-22 20:25:46 <TuxBlackEdo> if OP_DUP doesnt do anything
1324 2012-01-22 20:25:48 <sipa> it does
1325 2012-01-22 20:25:54 <sipa> it duplicates the top item on the stack
1326 2012-01-22 20:26:50 <luke-jr> TuxBlackEdo: if the stack was ["A", "B"], then OP_DUP makes it ["A", "B", "B"]
1327 2012-01-22 20:28:11 <luke-jr> unless it's part of a BIP 16 script
1328 2012-01-22 20:28:18 <luke-jr> then it's all special magic handling
1329 2012-01-22 20:29:13 <sipa> BIP16 "magic" scripts don't contain OP_DUP
1330 2012-01-22 20:29:30 <luke-jr> sipa: the scriptSig can
1331 2012-01-22 20:29:41 <sipa> and that's a perfectly normal script...
1332 2012-01-22 20:29:47 <luke-jr> nope
1333 2012-01-22 20:29:51 <lianj> never know, with black magic
1334 2012-01-22 20:29:52 sipa has left ()
1335 2012-01-22 20:29:55 <luke-jr> if it contains OP_DUP, it causes the transaction to fail
1336 2012-01-22 20:30:25 <Joric> sipa does 0.5.99 support importing json wallets?
1337 2012-01-22 20:30:45 <Joric> are there any specifications on that json
1338 2012-01-22 20:30:59 torsthaldo has joined
1339 2012-01-22 20:31:29 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1340 2012-01-22 20:32:02 shadders has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1341 2012-01-22 20:33:02 <Eliel> luke-jr: it'd make no sense for BIP 16 to say anything about P2SH becoming the only payment method because that's not up to developers to decide. That's up to the users. If they'll stop using the old transaction types, then it'll happen, otherwise not.
1342 2012-01-22 20:34:26 <luke-jr> Eliel: that's like saying protocol changes are up to the users.
1343 2012-01-22 20:35:06 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: the difference is that if non-P2SH stopped working lots of people would be instantly screwed and would have to change stuff.
1344 2012-01-22 20:35:58 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: nobody is suggesting non-P2SH stop working now. only that the recommendation be to not use it (this is called deprecation)
1345 2012-01-22 20:36:05 Graet_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1346 2012-01-22 20:36:44 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I think lots of people here have said they thought that would be the direction it would go eventually— assuming it was well adopted and issues didn't arise.
1347 2012-01-22 20:36:47 * TuxBlackEdo wonders if this discussion right here is having an effect on the price of bitcoin
1348 2012-01-22 20:36:53 <gmaxwell> Thats surely my assumption.
1349 2012-01-22 20:37:21 <luke-jr> in any case, BIP 16 is not explicit about it, and BIP 17 is better
1350 2012-01-22 20:37:30 <Eliel> so, adding "With this new transaction type, the old transaction type is considered deprecated and should not be used anymore where possible." to BIP16 would make it fine?
1351 2012-01-22 20:37:51 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1352 2012-01-22 20:38:09 <luke-jr> Eliel: if it were a little more specific, it would make BIP 16 remotely sane at least
1353 2012-01-22 20:39:24 <luke-jr> ie, "This BIP deprecates scriptPubKey, replacing it with scriptHash. For compatibility, scriptHash must be stored as <HASH160 hash EQUALS> and any other value is to be interpreted as a legacy scriptPubKey"
1354 2012-01-22 20:39:57 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1355 2012-01-22 20:39:57 RazielZ has joined
1356 2012-01-22 20:40:40 <luke-jr> maybe also "scriptSig is also now strictly PUSH-only, and the final value PUSHed is the new scriptPubKey which must hash to the correct value"
1357 2012-01-22 20:41:05 <gmaxwell> Eliel: he's offered to not oppose BIP16 on that basis initially. I think his demand was understood as an impossible request, so nothing was done on it.
1358 2012-01-22 20:41:25 <luke-jr> nothing impossible about it
1359 2012-01-22 20:41:33 <gmaxwell> I said understood.
1360 2012-01-22 20:41:41 <gmaxwell> Certantly what you're saying now sounds impossible.
1361 2012-01-22 20:41:48 <luke-jr> nonsense
1362 2012-01-22 20:42:08 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: "scriptSig is also now strictly PUSH-only,"  — So great, if you correctly implement the BIP you must break bitcoin for all current users?
1363 2012-01-22 20:42:30 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: current Bitcoin considers scriptSig standard only if it has PUSH
1364 2012-01-22 20:42:50 <luke-jr> also, all 3 BIPs make formerly valid scripts invalid
1365 2012-01-22 20:43:22 <luke-jr> finally, I'm pretty sure the ability to put non-PUSH in scriptSig is a security vulnerability
1366 2012-01-22 20:43:53 <luke-jr> or at least it would seem likely
1367 2012-01-22 20:45:36 <luke-jr> in any case, there'd be no real NEED to add that requirement. just a nice to have.
1368 2012-01-22 20:46:27 <luke-jr> explicitly reforming the protocol is much saner than setting up some special rules that effectively do the same.
1369 2012-01-22 20:47:42 <gmaxwell> In any case, we _can't_ immediately discourage the use of old addresses, not when it's not even viable yet to use the new ones.
1370 2012-01-22 20:48:28 <luke-jr> that's why we just declare it deprecated. :p
1371 2012-01-22 20:49:51 <luke-jr> or implement P2SH with BIP 17, and migrate to such an upgrade later
1372 2012-01-22 20:51:03 shadders has joined
1373 2012-01-22 20:51:07 <Eliel> how about "Once >x% of the mining power has updated, the old transaction types shall be considered deprecated."
1374 2012-01-22 20:51:28 <gmaxwell> Eliel: the mining power isn't the only issue.
1375 2012-01-22 20:51:42 <gmaxwell> Eliel: It needs users to have upgraded, sites to accept the new addresses, etc.
1376 2012-01-22 20:51:44 foggyb has joined
1377 2012-01-22 20:51:48 pusle has quit ()
1378 2012-01-22 20:51:54 <gmaxwell> Esp with BIP17 where old nodes won't even relay the spending transactions.
1379 2012-01-22 20:52:10 <Eliel> many projects keep deprecated functionality around for ages.
1380 2012-01-22 20:52:17 MrTiggr has joined
1381 2012-01-22 20:52:39 <phantomcircuit> mucking about in init.cpp is no fun
1382 2012-01-22 20:52:43 <gmaxwell> Eliel: but we can't even tell people that its proper to not support the old addresses until this is true.
1383 2012-01-22 20:52:45 <phantomcircuit> have to rebuild almost everything
1384 2012-01-22 20:52:47 Graet_ has joined
1385 2012-01-22 20:53:38 dafump has joined
1386 2012-01-22 20:53:48 <Eliel> ok, then delayed deprecation? a year?
1387 2012-01-22 20:54:01 <DrHaribo> Hm, do any miners support X-Roll-NTime with expire=x ?
1388 2012-01-22 20:54:20 <luke-jr> Eliel: why delay?
1389 2012-01-22 20:54:48 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: deprecation doesn't mean "don't support it"
1390 2012-01-22 20:55:12 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it means "don't use it for new stuff"
1391 2012-01-22 20:55:25 <luke-jr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation
1392 2012-01-22 20:55:34 <gmaxwell> yes, so I put up a new bitcoin business tomorrow. and I only accept addresses which are p2sh.  oops.
1393 2012-01-22 20:55:46 <gmaxwell> That would be _bad_ and it's not what we want to encourage.
1394 2012-01-22 20:55:47 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: no, because you want to support old stuff
1395 2012-01-22 20:55:55 <luke-jr> read the wikipedia article :P
1396 2012-01-22 20:56:14 <luke-jr> new stuff would be like (at this point) multisigs
1397 2012-01-22 20:56:44 Wrz has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1398 2012-01-22 20:56:50 <luke-jr> so if scriptPubKey is deprecated, it would be improper to make long multisig addresses.
1399 2012-01-22 20:57:06 <gmaxwell> I think most people would read deprecation in this context to mean only generate new addresses, and when you create new things its okay to only accept the new addresses.
1400 2012-01-22 20:57:12 <luke-jr> it doesn't make it improper to support old pre-deprecation pubkey addresses
1401 2012-01-22 20:57:32 <luke-jr> then be more specific in the BIP if that's a concern.
1402 2012-01-22 20:57:34 <gmaxwell> So it would be better to just spell out what you mean rather than depending on everyone deciding the same implications for deprecation.
1403 2012-01-22 20:57:51 <gmaxwell> OK.
1404 2012-01-22 20:58:25 <luke-jr> "Note: this deprecation does not mean you should stop using and supporting old 1… addresses, just don't base new transaction types on scriptPubKey"
1405 2012-01-22 21:01:21 TD has joined
1406 2012-01-22 21:01:58 * luke-jr ponders making a BIP 18 to compete with BIP 16, but be completely compatible with it
1407 2012-01-22 21:02:51 <gmaxwell> I'd surely like to see what changes to the text (but not behavior) you'd feel would make BIP 16 acceptable.
1408 2012-01-22 21:03:50 bagit has quit ()
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1412 2012-01-22 21:14:01 <etotheipi_> unrelated clarification:  if I don't have compressed public keys implemented in Armory yet, the client will still work on the network as long as no one tries to implement to import such an address, correct?  In other words, I have to create addresses based on compressed pubkeys in order to have to worry about them...?
1413 2012-01-22 21:14:25 <Eliel> luke-jr: I think BIP 16b would be more proper name if you're not actually changing the implementation.
1414 2012-01-22 21:14:45 <etotheipi_> (I plan to implement them in the near future, I just want to make sure I don't need to do it before the alpha release)
1415 2012-01-22 21:15:00 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: there are compressed public keys in the chain.
1416 2012-01-22 21:15:11 <phantomcircuit> the difference between hardware and software watchpoints is huge
1417 2012-01-22 21:15:18 <phantomcircuit> btw in case anybody is wondering
1418 2012-01-22 21:15:28 <phantomcircuit> addrLocalHost is too large for a hardware watch
1419 2012-01-22 21:15:48 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, then I guess that means my statement is true:  they already exist and I'm doing fine
1420 2012-01-22 21:18:54 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: it means either you're failing to validate the chain, or you support them.
1421 2012-01-22 21:19:05 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, we already know I don't validate the chain
1422 2012-01-22 21:19:20 <etotheipi_> the question is whether I can still process my own transactions and send them, without the support
1423 2012-01-22 21:19:56 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1424 2012-01-22 21:20:04 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: well, I didn't completely know how little you validated it. :)
1425 2012-01-22 21:20:21 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: sure, it's irrelvant to you.
1426 2012-01-22 21:20:35 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I do pretty much NO validation at all... I'm relying on the Satoshi client between me and the network to do all of it for me
1427 2012-01-22 21:21:03 <etotheipi_> but obviously, I'll be adding a big chunk of validation capability when I implement standalone networking
1428 2012-01-22 21:32:29 dikidera has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1429 2012-01-22 21:34:25 phungus is now known as phungi
1430 2012-01-22 21:37:07 pling has joined
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1432 2012-01-22 21:38:59 sipa has joined
1433 2012-01-22 21:42:03 <luke-jr> Eliel: BIPs are not about implementations
1434 2012-01-22 21:49:03 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1435 2012-01-22 21:55:57 lyspooner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1436 2012-01-22 22:04:30 <roconnor> etotheipi_: do you dry your clothes with your rig?
1437 2012-01-22 22:07:32 imsaguy is now known as [\\\]
1438 2012-01-22 22:13:29 h4ckm3 has joined
1439 2012-01-22 22:13:46 h4ckm3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1440 2012-01-22 22:17:10 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: When the chips are down, well, the buffalo is empty)
1441 2012-01-22 22:23:12 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1443 2012-01-22 22:24:19 paraipan has joined
1444 2012-01-22 22:26:48 <Graet_> roconnor i did when it was winter :)
1445 2012-01-22 22:30:26 <roconnor> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Addresses -- does the base58 encode treat the bytestring as big-endian or little-endian?
1446 2012-01-22 22:30:31 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r1e1519e93ec6 cgminer/adl.c: Add ADL_Overdrive5_ThermalDevices_Enum interface. http://tinyurl.com/6ol423o
1447 2012-01-22 22:30:54 <sipa> roconnor: as a little-endien number, afaik
1448 2012-01-22 22:31:52 <sipa> roconnor: just checked; it's big-endian :)
1449 2012-01-22 22:37:44 maqr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1450 2012-01-22 22:40:24 <CIA-76> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r2d29cdb6117b cgminer/ (adl.c miner.h): Read off lpThermalControllerInfo from each ADL device. http://tinyurl.com/6o3mnas
1451 2012-01-22 22:42:19 baz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1452 2012-01-22 22:42:25 baz has joined
1453 2012-01-22 22:43:10 maqr has joined
1454 2012-01-22 22:52:18 <roconnor> sipa: thanks
1455 2012-01-22 22:54:22 <roconnor> heh
1456 2012-01-22 22:54:37 <roconnor> what does it mean when the old gui client says 0/offline? for a transaction?
1457 2012-01-22 22:57:20 MoPac has joined
1458 2012-01-22 22:58:27 <doublec> you have no connections?
1459 2012-01-22 22:58:48 <roconnor> I have 9
1460 2012-01-22 22:58:58 Nicksasa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1461 2012-01-22 22:58:58 <roconnor> but I have kinda messed up my client :P
1462 2012-01-22 23:01:30 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
1463 2012-01-22 23:01:30 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
1464 2012-01-22 23:01:41 <Diablo-D3> remember that new array packing mode I invented?
1465 2012-01-22 23:02:14 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes lou?
1466 2012-01-22 23:02:28 <Diablo-D3> someone said its faster on 7970 :D
1467 2012-01-22 23:02:58 b4epoche_ has joined
1468 2012-01-22 23:03:00 theymos has joined
1469 2012-01-22 23:03:31 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: roughly 1% faster.
1470 2012-01-22 23:03:43 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1471 2012-01-22 23:03:43 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
1472 2012-01-22 23:04:11 <sipa> roconnor: it means you sent out inv packets for your new tx, but no peer requested the actual tx
1473 2012-01-22 23:04:46 <roconnor> sipa: ah
1474 2012-01-22 23:05:10 <roconnor> ya, my rogue relayer might plausibly have that effect.
1475 2012-01-22 23:05:18 <roconnor> it gets a little confused
1476 2012-01-22 23:05:46 <gmaxwell> well, you might have sent out inv for the rogue version, and they requested that.. but you didn't count that?
1477 2012-01-22 23:05:56 <roconnor> perhaps
1478 2012-01-22 23:06:15 <phantomcircuit> sipa, pushed tor branch which accepts -onionaddr and if using a proxy will set addrLocalHost to the ipv6 mapped onion address
1479 2012-01-22 23:07:33 <phantomcircuit> to have a fully functional tor branch need ipv6 address storage/catch ipv6 mapped onion addresses before call to proxy and request the encoded address instead
1480 2012-01-22 23:07:49 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: and it will correctly handle multiple incoming connections from 'localhost' ?
1481 2012-01-22 23:08:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i believe it already does
1482 2012-01-22 23:08:22 <phantomcircuit> or am i missing something?
1483 2012-01-22 23:09:13 <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/katmagic/Shallot
1484 2012-01-22 23:09:16 <Diablo-D3> that looks nifty
1485 2012-01-22 23:09:27 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how hard it is to make rsa keypairs
1486 2012-01-22 23:09:51 * roconnor turns off roguing for the momment.
1487 2012-01-22 23:10:21 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: harder than our keypairs unless you compromise on security.
1488 2012-01-22 23:11:29 <Diablo-D3> hrm still
1489 2012-01-22 23:11:34 <Diablo-D3> gotta be better than cpu gen, no?
1490 2012-01-22 23:11:52 <sipa> how many bits are those RSA keys?
1491 2012-01-22 23:12:06 <Diablo-D3> I dont know
1492 2012-01-22 23:12:14 <theymos> I think Tor uses RSA-1024 and SHA1.
1493 2012-01-22 23:12:42 <edcba> 1024 only ?
1494 2012-01-22 23:12:45 <gmaxwell> what theymos said.
1495 2012-01-22 23:13:06 <sipa> that would be comparable to 160-bit ECC
1496 2012-01-22 23:13:17 <Diablo-D3> so gpus cant do it easily?
1497 2012-01-22 23:13:21 <gmaxwell> edcba: there are some vague plans to upgrade in the future, but they haven't happend yet.
1498 2012-01-22 23:13:28 <gmaxwell> Thats also why onion addresses are only 80 bits.
1499 2012-01-22 23:13:38 <gmaxwell> ... they keys only have about 80 bits of security.
1500 2012-01-22 23:13:52 <edcba>    For a public-key cipher, we use RSA with 1024-bit keys and a fixed
1501 2012-01-22 23:13:52 <edcba>    exponent of 65537.  We use OAEP-MGF1 padding, with SHA-1 as its digest
1502 2012-01-22 23:13:53 <edcba>    function.
1503 2012-01-22 23:14:00 <edcba> from tor-spec.txt
1504 2012-01-22 23:14:22 <gmaxwell> edcba: that onion generator thing twiddles the exponent. (because its faster than finding new primes)
1505 2012-01-22 23:14:55 <kinlo> can a block be created that has 50 BTC in the generation transaction, while there were transactions that have a fee, so that the BTC's in those fee's are actually lost forever?
1506 2012-01-22 23:15:11 <gmaxwell> kinlo: yes, its been done too
1507 2012-01-22 23:15:17 <gmaxwell> (by midnightmagic )
1508 2012-01-22 23:15:18 <roconnor> kinlo: a block can lose as much as it wants
1509 2012-01-22 23:15:26 <roconnor> kinlo: even the 50 fee
1510 2012-01-22 23:15:29 <kinlo> that's not really a good thing eh?
1511 2012-01-22 23:15:45 <gmaxwell> kinlo: ... who cares? you could generate the coins and the burn the paper with the private key.
1512 2012-01-22 23:15:48 <roconnor> they might be required to keep 1 satoshi  I forget.
1513 2012-01-22 23:15:57 <sipa> roconnor: don't think so
1514 2012-01-22 23:16:01 <kinlo> gmaxwell: true
1515 2012-01-22 23:16:03 <gmaxwell> At least this way its clear to everyone that its gone.
1516 2012-01-22 23:16:06 <sipa> they are required to create one output
1517 2012-01-22 23:16:06 <roconnor> I should check taht
1518 2012-01-22 23:16:09 <roconnor> possible block forking
1519 2012-01-22 23:16:10 <sipa> but that output may be 0
1520 2012-01-22 23:16:22 <roconnor> I kinda thought outputs had to be non-zero
1521 2012-01-22 23:16:34 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic was trying to burn 1e-8 btc .. but forgot to consider fees and burned an additional 0.01.
1522 2012-01-22 23:16:39 <sipa> no, there are even mainnet blocks with 0-outputs
1523 2012-01-22 23:16:45 <gmaxwell> roconnor: they don't which is stupid as #@$#@$#@$@#$@
1524 2012-01-22 23:16:49 <gmaxwell> And ought to be fixed.
1525 2012-01-22 23:16:53 <roconnor> sipa: can you show me?
1526 2012-01-22 23:17:08 <sipa> hmm, any p2pool block
1527 2012-01-22 23:17:11 <gmaxwell> roconnor: in a regular txn or a coinbase?
1528 2012-01-22 23:17:21 <roconnor> gmaxwell: both ideally
1529 2012-01-22 23:17:29 <roconnor> gmaxwell: but I was thinking coinbase
1530 2012-01-22 23:17:43 <sipa> coinbases definitely support 0-outputs
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1532 2012-01-22 23:17:45 <gmaxwell> roconnor: coinbase, https://blockexplorer.com/tx/70602a595ae552aa45095464a827484069055769ad7b577a6ae573c026dc0f60
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1535 2012-01-22 23:18:00 <sipa> what are you going to do if the subsidy is zero, and no fees are present in the block?
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1537 2012-01-22 23:18:17 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure I've seen them in regular txn — though I'm not sure where one is.
1538 2012-01-22 23:18:17 <sipa> (no output is definitely not allowed)
1539 2012-01-22 23:18:28 <Diablo-D3> sipa: then you cant produce the block
1540 2012-01-22 23:18:43 <roconnor> gmaxwell: I believe you
1541 2012-01-22 23:18:45 <theymos> Here's one in a regular transaction: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/9173744691ac25f3cd94f35d4fc0e0a2b9d1ab17b4fe562acc07660552f95518
1542 2012-01-22 23:19:01 <gmaxwell> theymos: thanks!
1543 2012-01-22 23:19:18 <gmaxwell> oh fuck man, horribleness.
1544 2012-01-22 23:19:26 <roconnor> maybe we can make a wiki page with these sorts of examples
1545 2012-01-22 23:19:27 <theymos> 0-value outputs can also be "spent", which you might not expect.
1546 2012-01-22 23:19:50 <sipa> TD: do you know of any purpose for these 0 outputs?
1547 2012-01-22 23:19:59 <TD> hmm?
1548 2012-01-22 23:20:05 <gmaxwell> sipa: I know a purpose, — adding spam to the blockchain.
1549 2012-01-22 23:20:05 <sipa> outputs with amount 0
1550 2012-01-22 23:20:17 <TD> ah
1551 2012-01-22 23:20:22 <theymos> Satoshi once suggested using them to put hashes of arbitrary data into the chain.
1552 2012-01-22 23:20:38 <gmaxwell> I know that luke won't mine them. Dunno about other pools.
1553 2012-01-22 23:20:40 <TD> sipa: potentially useful in the context of smart property as well
1554 2012-01-22 23:20:51 <TD> as there are no implementations of smart property today, that is however academic
1555 2012-01-22 23:20:56 <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/joho/7XX-rfc
1556 2012-01-22 23:20:58 <Diablo-D3> :D
1557 2012-01-22 23:21:27 <sipa> TD: ok, good to know
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