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23 2012-01-26 00:25:40 <krysits> DON HATE OMAR CELEBRATE
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28 2012-01-26 00:33:54 <UukGoblin> lianj, very informative video, many thanks! I've learned a lot already, I hope I have enough linear algebra-fu to keep watching :-)
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31 2012-01-26 00:35:22 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: the linear algebra needed for quantum computation is pretty simple. Esp if you're just willing to accept that varrious rotation operators do the rotation they say they'll do.
32 2012-01-26 00:35:45 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, I've just passed the "NOT gate" video and it's all fine so far
33 2012-01-26 00:36:08 <UukGoblin> I can do basic matrix stuff, fortunately
34 2012-01-26 00:36:15 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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36 2012-01-26 00:42:16 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: going more in depth, http://www.scottaaronson.com/thesis.html Scott Aaronson's thesis is fantastic. Not only is the core subject matter interesting, the QC cheat sheet in it is great.
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41 2012-01-26 00:49:02 <dwon> Looks like http://blockexplorer.com/testnet is being rebuilt
42 2012-01-26 00:49:47 hexTech has joined
43 2012-01-26 00:50:22 <gmaxwell> aww.. I was starting to enjoy the mess as a work of art.
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46 2012-01-26 01:00:42 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rd7aac25489fc cgminer/ocl.c: Whitelist 79x0 cards to prefer no vectors as they perform better without. http://tinyurl.com/77767wz
47 2012-01-26 01:00:43 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rbd189a1eb338 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Support for generating midstate iff there is a compatible 'midstate' Python module available http://tinyurl.com/8xmp94g
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54 2012-01-26 01:14:11 <krysits> for code im like justin bieber for marey carey
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64 2012-01-26 01:30:43 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rdfc79ebb0a37 eloipool/config.py.example: Example config.py file (testnet) http://tinyurl.com/76h2965
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81 2012-01-26 01:43:22 <gmaxwell> Can anyone tell me what legit purpose might justify someone paying, in bitcoins, 105% of expected returns per share for someone mining for them? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60413.0
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84 2012-01-26 01:44:03 <gmaxwell> If they were paying in USD/etc then it would just be a way of buying coins without using a market. If they were paying <100% it would be a pooling business.
85 2012-01-26 01:44:18 <gmaxwell> (or even just a way of gambling)
86 2012-01-26 01:44:34 paraipan has joined
87 2012-01-26 01:44:36 <theymos> I think it's a promotion to build membership.
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90 2012-01-26 01:45:38 <gmaxwell> Some pools have done thatâ but ... whats being promoted here?
91 2012-01-26 01:46:33 <gmaxwell> Is anyone mining against that? I'd like some samples of its getwork results (I don't need to know the address of the pool or anything)
92 2012-01-26 01:46:43 JRWR has joined
93 2012-01-26 01:46:46 <Backburn> keeping NMC with hidden multi-mining?
94 2012-01-26 01:47:05 <gmaxwell> Backburn: NMC returns are tiny and don't justify that.
95 2012-01-26 01:47:13 <doublec> possibly they have mining contracts and are making profit on the difference between the contract and their rate
96 2012-01-26 01:47:46 <theymos> Goat is the top forum advertiser, so he probably does make some significant income. Maybe he sells the hashing as mining contracts for 110% of expected value or something.
97 2012-01-26 01:47:58 <doublec> right, that was my thinking
98 2012-01-26 01:48:00 <gmaxwell> doublec: ah, thats possible. getting paid in USD, buying bitcoin at market and using it to pay the premium to the miners.
99 2012-01-26 01:48:21 <Backburn> sounds like some massive laundering going on
100 2012-01-26 01:49:08 <BTC_Bear> Assumptions... often lead to where you want to take them.
101 2012-01-26 01:49:12 <doublec> I don't know why people pay premium for mining though - I guess to get traffic for new pools or something
102 2012-01-26 01:49:34 <luke-jr> theymos: fix BBE testnet yet? :P
103 2012-01-26 01:49:58 gfinn has joined
104 2012-01-26 01:50:11 <theymos> luke-jr: I cleared the database, so it should be fixed soon. (Rebuilding the database now.)
105 2012-01-26 01:50:21 <gmaxwell> theymos: will it handle reorgs now? :)
106 2012-01-26 01:50:42 <theymos> I didn't change anything, so probably not.
107 2012-01-26 01:52:02 <luke-jr> theymos: interest in merging BIP17 so you don't get reorg'd again? <.<
108 2012-01-26 01:52:11 <theymos> I wrote this code so long ago and it's so messy that I really hate messing with it. I need to rewrite it one of these days.
109 2012-01-26 01:52:17 <luke-jr> i c
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111 2012-01-26 01:52:39 <gmaxwell> adopting BIP17 is no protection against being reorged. :)
112 2012-01-26 01:52:58 <gmaxwell> Next time I reorg testnet perhaps it'll be to test BIP16. :)
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116 2012-01-26 02:04:08 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: so merge both!
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119 2012-01-26 02:10:05 <theymos> Did [Tycho] decide not to support either BIP 16 or 17?
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121 2012-01-26 02:15:44 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r19d2ac98060b eloipool/eloipool.py: Quick and dirty hack to detect (and reject) duplicate share submissions http://tinyurl.com/7ged5m7
122 2012-01-26 02:15:50 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rec07b61e999d eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Bugfix: midstate module will expect bytes, not str http://tinyurl.com/75r8ka7
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124 2012-01-26 02:19:14 <luke-jr> theymos: as of present, [Tycho] opposes BIP 16 and does not support BIP 17
125 2012-01-26 02:19:33 <luke-jr> theymos: over 50% of hashpower has expressed they will not support BIP 16
126 2012-01-26 02:19:51 <Graet> i think [Tycho] is being sensible
127 2012-01-26 02:20:04 <BlueMatt> when did [Tycho] say he opposed bip 16
128 2012-01-26 02:20:11 <Graet> rushing a decision doesnt seem wise to me
129 2012-01-26 02:20:21 <BlueMatt> he has said that he doesnt like the rate at which p2sh is going (at least the new /p2sh/ stuff)
130 2012-01-26 02:20:42 <BlueMatt> but Ive never seen him say outright he will not support 16
131 2012-01-26 02:21:01 <luke-jr> Graet: I agree a slower pace would be better, but I'm trying to compromise with Gavin on timeframe at least.
132 2012-01-26 02:25:41 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r77e9b1c2e8b3 cgminer/ocl.c: Use calloced stack memory for CompilerOptions to ensure sprintf writes to the beginning of the char. http://tinyurl.com/6rzsl79
133 2012-01-26 02:25:43 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rd662c9c62624 cgminer/main.c: Allow intensity up to 14. http://tinyurl.com/7t9pzaz
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135 2012-01-26 02:30:36 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r51f835503db7 eloipool/README: Brief README file documenting dependencies and where to get them http://tinyurl.com/7jokbt6
136 2012-01-26 02:30:38 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * re99823ab1af4 eloipool/merkletree.py: Bugfix: a2b_hex in Python 3.2 no longer accepts str, only bytes http://tinyurl.com/87oryzv
137 2012-01-26 02:30:51 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
138 2012-01-26 02:31:49 <theymos> Interesting that miners (and especially one pool) will veto a decision made by the development group. I think this is the first time this has happened. (Miners could probably be forced to support it if Bitcoin clients applied the extra verification, though.)
139 2012-01-26 02:33:15 <BlueMatt> theymos: who said anything about [Tycho] vetoing anything
140 2012-01-26 02:33:20 <BlueMatt> theymos: I dont know where luke got that
141 2012-01-26 02:33:38 * BlueMatt wants to see a quote
142 2012-01-26 02:34:37 <theymos> Well, he knows about it and isn't "voting", so it seems that he at least doesn't support it.
143 2012-01-26 02:35:17 <BlueMatt> well he hasnt applied it yet
144 2012-01-26 02:35:27 <BlueMatt> and isnt going to in the very near future
145 2012-01-26 02:35:36 <BlueMatt> but I really dont think he will avoid/reject it
146 2012-01-26 02:35:41 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * ra992b5d89ddc cgminer/main.c: Allow intensity up to 14 for multiple devices as well. http://tinyurl.com/7xjkbha
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150 2012-01-26 02:40:39 <doublec> theymos: wasn't there a point at the end of 2010 where a group of miners disagreed with a developer change and for a while publically said they wouldn't update?
151 2012-01-26 02:40:48 <doublec> I can't remember what it wa about
152 2012-01-26 02:41:59 <theymos> Possibly you're thinking of IsStandard? There was some disagreement about that, though it eventually went through without much trouble.
153 2012-01-26 02:42:14 <doublec> theymos: right that was it
154 2012-01-26 02:42:36 <theymos> ArtForz was opposed to it and didn't use it for several months, but eventually he started using it.
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160 2012-01-26 02:46:15 <theymos> The last email I received from Satoshi was about that issue, actually. I was opposed to IsStandard partly because I wanted to put arbitrary data in the block chain, and Satoshi emailed me to tell me that you can use 0-value outputs and OP_CHECKSIG to insert arbitrary data.
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162 2012-01-26 02:47:23 <doublec> nice, I was opposed at the time too and wasn't going to support it in my pool. I came around as well.
163 2012-01-26 02:47:57 <luke-jr> Eligius still skips IsStandard
164 2012-01-26 02:48:05 <theymos> The P2SH issue can't be resolved slowly like that, unfortunately.
165 2012-01-26 02:48:30 <doublec> luke-jr: have you ever encountered a problem with it?
166 2012-01-26 02:48:41 <luke-jr> doublec: no
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168 2012-01-26 02:48:59 <theymos> BBE's node also runs without IsStandard.
169 2012-01-26 02:49:09 <theymos> (Though I don't mine, so it doesn't really matter.)
170 2012-01-26 02:49:45 <doublec> non standard tx's don't get relayed by other nodes, right?
171 2012-01-26 02:49:54 <theymos> Right.
172 2012-01-26 02:50:02 <gmaxwell> doublec: mtgox encountered a several thousand btc problem with eligius' lack of isstandard however! :)
173 2012-01-26 02:50:15 <doublec> gmaxwell: that was them crafting a bad transaction?
174 2012-01-26 02:50:43 <doublec> expensive mistake!
175 2012-01-26 02:50:47 <gmaxwell> doublec: yea, easily identifyable by the fact that eligius mined it with no feeâ
176 2012-01-26 02:51:22 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not quite
177 2012-01-26 02:51:48 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: even if I requires IsStandard for most transactions, MtGox can force any to be accepted
178 2012-01-26 02:51:51 <luke-jr> required*
179 2012-01-26 02:53:50 <theymos> Does their access to Eligius allow them to try double-spending something?
180 2012-01-26 02:54:17 <luke-jr> theymos: I don't think they can do that.
181 2012-01-26 02:54:39 <luke-jr> they can only force a transaction in the memory pool to be added to blocks
182 2012-01-26 02:54:48 <luke-jr> I don't think double spends will get that far
183 2012-01-26 02:54:59 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: if you had the normal isstandard checks then those txns wouldn't be in the memory pool.
184 2012-01-26 02:55:19 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: well, obviously I'd put the IsStandard check somewhere else then <.<
185 2012-01-26 02:55:46 <CIA-2> bitcoin: p2k * rd1ce6df251e3 ecoinpool/apps/ecoinpool/src/ (3 files): Adhere to SQL Query Size Limit http://tinyurl.com/7je3dl7
186 2012-01-26 02:55:54 <gmaxwell> me fills luke's memory with rubbish
187 2012-01-26 03:00:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: first time running addrman-bitcoin: segfault
188 2012-01-26 03:01:17 <gmaxwell> oh well, I'm sure your valgrind and gdb were getting dusty.
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191 2012-01-26 03:04:36 <gmaxwell> Does anyone have any majory negative feelings about anti-bruteforcing functionality for the RPC port? E.g. making it slow down requests from not-successful IPs if there are many incorrect passwords? Maybe just some minor enhancements to the existing DoS function?
192 2012-01-26 03:04:42 <gmaxwell> er majorly?
193 2012-01-26 03:05:28 <gmaxwell> I'm now aware of at least two users who have been robbed due to accidentally exposing their RPC ports to the internet. (well, once accidentally, and one at least one more who thought it was just for mining)
194 2012-01-26 03:05:48 <doublec> how'd the attacker guess the username/password?
195 2012-01-26 03:06:21 <doublec> litecoin (I think) had a problem where someone publish instructions which included a conf file with a default username/password
196 2012-01-26 03:06:27 <gmaxwell> Apparently bruteforcing a kinda dumb set. (thus the anti-bruteforcing thought)
197 2012-01-26 03:06:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: dont you love when that happens?
198 2012-01-26 03:06:30 <doublec> and some users got coins stolen that way
199 2012-01-26 03:06:52 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
200 2012-01-26 03:06:57 <doublec> anti-bruteforcing sounds good to me
201 2012-01-26 03:07:02 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: better to add that after merging threading IMO <.<
202 2012-01-26 03:07:15 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: hah, yea, perhaps!
203 2012-01-26 03:07:30 Prattler has joined
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205 2012-01-26 03:09:20 * BlueMatt doesnt see why many of the rpc threading stuff wasnt merged long ago, they mostly all still had a cs_main lock before actually calling rpc methods, all they did was thread the rpc server
206 2012-01-26 03:09:30 <BlueMatt> and let the locking work itself out at a later date
207 2012-01-26 03:09:35 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: btw, my bitcoind never crashed
208 2012-01-26 03:10:11 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Yea, my whine was about an earlier version of it that didn't have all those locks. :-/
209 2012-01-26 03:10:22 <luke-jr> i c
210 2012-01-26 03:10:25 <gmaxwell> I'm sorry for speaking out of ignorance.
211 2012-01-26 03:10:36 <luke-jr> mine always had locks, but I merged into JK's implementation at some point
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213 2012-01-26 03:13:03 <gmaxwell> I'm also interested in making most of the funny-business log entries log peer IP addressesâ not the messages that you'd normally expect (because those would make it attractive to capture bitcoin nodes to get their logs) but all the entries you'll only see if someone is broken or attacking.
214 2012-01-26 03:13:56 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
215 2012-01-26 03:14:04 <BlueMatt> you mean like if (nDoS) printf("IP X.X.X.X sucks");
216 2012-01-26 03:14:05 <BlueMatt> ?
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219 2012-01-26 03:15:46 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Yes. Also some ones like ConnectInputs() : %s prev tx already used
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222 2012-01-26 03:16:27 <BlueMatt> does that not give DoS?
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225 2012-01-26 03:16:35 enquirer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
226 2012-01-26 03:16:41 <BlueMatt> (or are we assuming thats ok due to tx replacement?)
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231 2012-01-26 03:17:33 * luke-jr still thinks we should relay double-spend attempts
232 2012-01-26 03:17:38 <gmaxwell> It doesn't give DoS because its transitive.
233 2012-01-26 03:18:23 <gmaxwell> (I think)
234 2012-01-26 03:18:45 <luke-jr> because the conflict is likely to happen somewhere innocnet
235 2012-01-26 03:19:35 <gmaxwell> right, we can't give DoS for anything that a non-broken node should relay _at all_
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237 2012-01-26 03:22:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: failure to follow that principle has caused a number of high profile internet outages... where routers had picky bgp validation that hung up on peers simply passing data from a third network.
238 2012-01-26 03:26:31 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r86065dd24a22 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Bugfix: Fix midstate bugs http://tinyurl.com/6m9hsnb
239 2012-01-26 03:26:57 * roconnor sighs
240 2012-01-26 03:27:03 <roconnor> I should really look up that txid code
241 2012-01-26 03:27:16 <roconnor> but I'm really afraid
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246 2012-01-26 03:38:09 <sipa> roconnor: what txid code?
247 2012-01-26 03:38:09 <roconnor> hmm
248 2012-01-26 03:38:11 <roconnor> CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapTransactions)
249 2012-01-26 03:38:13 <roconnor> if (mapTransactions.count(hash))
250 2012-01-26 03:38:14 <roconnor> return false;
251 2012-01-26 03:38:39 <roconnor> sipa: where you around this morning for the double minded transaction question?
252 2012-01-26 03:38:43 <roconnor> *mined
253 2012-01-26 03:40:15 <roconnor> hmm, looks like a race condition in AcceptToMemoryPool
254 2012-01-26 03:40:17 <roconnor> but anyhow
255 2012-01-26 03:41:28 <roconnor> oh there is a RemoveFromMemoryPool
256 2012-01-26 03:42:35 <roconnor> what does count return for map?
257 2012-01-26 03:42:39 hexTech has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
258 2012-01-26 03:43:00 <roconnor> count(hash)
259 2012-01-26 03:43:22 <phantomcircuit> argh
260 2012-01-26 03:43:29 <phantomcircuit> why is us hosting SO EXPENSIVE
261 2012-01-26 03:43:41 hexTech has joined
262 2012-01-26 03:46:54 <roconnor> oh there is a mapBlockIndex
263 2012-01-26 03:47:04 pingdrive has joined
264 2012-01-26 03:48:02 <roconnor> but that is for blocks
265 2012-01-26 03:50:40 hexTech has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
266 2012-01-26 03:51:23 <pingdrive> when i am mining with a pool what is the average size of data transfered between client and server per second?
267 2012-01-26 03:51:25 hexTech has joined
268 2012-01-26 03:52:13 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: depends on your hashrate, but its pretty small
269 2012-01-26 03:52:27 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: I wasnt aware hosting was cheap anywhere...
270 2012-01-26 03:52:54 <pingdrive> BlueMatt, lets say it 100MH/sec
271 2012-01-26 03:53:07 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, 40 EUR/month 16 GB 2TB dedicated box in france
272 2012-01-26 03:53:15 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: low enough that you wont notice it
273 2012-01-26 03:53:28 <phantomcircuit> 10TB of transfer out unlimited in (ie 30 TB since it's a 100mbps connection)
274 2012-01-26 03:54:12 <gmaxwell> turns out there is existing anti-brute-forcing code... which leaks some information about the user's rpc password.
275 2012-01-26 03:54:13 <roconnor> ugh
276 2012-01-26 03:54:17 <roconnor> I think gavin is right
277 2012-01-26 03:54:18 * gmaxwell facepalm
278 2012-01-26 03:54:31 <pingdrive> BlueMatt, well but if you would say its this much kbit/sec, what would it be?
279 2012-01-26 03:54:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: how does it do that?
280 2012-01-26 03:54:48 <gmaxwell> // Deter brute-forcing short passwords
281 2012-01-26 03:54:48 <gmaxwell> if (mapArgs["-rpcpassword"].size() < 15)
282 2012-01-26 03:54:48 <gmaxwell> Sleep(50);
283 2012-01-26 03:54:54 <pingdrive> or how do i measure it
284 2012-01-26 03:54:58 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh...wow thats bad
285 2012-01-26 03:55:19 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: I dont have an estimate for you, but it wont hit any monthly cap on any device Ive ever heard of (cell modem or otherwise)
286 2012-01-26 03:55:25 <k9quaint> at least he took out the code that emailed the password to me
287 2012-01-26 03:55:58 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh, on second read its not that bad, but still not ideal...
288 2012-01-26 03:56:29 <pingdrive> i bet there is an app to measure how much data is being transfered between two nodes
289 2012-01-26 03:56:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: It's not terrible, but it's not good either.
290 2012-01-26 03:56:50 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: depends on your platform, but yea it shouldnt be hard
291 2012-01-26 03:57:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: part of making these attacks worthless is making it so the attacker doesn't know if he's wasting his time completely or not.
292 2012-01-26 03:57:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: absolutely, but you can be a lot lower than 15 have waste the attacker's time
293 2012-01-26 03:57:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: but yea, still not good
294 2012-01-26 03:57:49 <doublec> pingdrive: send a 'getwork' rpc request to your local bitcoin. That data is transferred every time your miner asks for data - ie. when it solves the work or needs to refresh because a longpoll happened.
295 2012-01-26 03:57:51 <pingdrive> ubuntu, i got system monitor, but it shows combined signals
296 2012-01-26 03:58:30 <pingdrive> doublec, umm and how do i do that
297 2012-01-26 03:58:48 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: easiest way I can think of, do a tag iptables rule and look at its total after a few days
298 2012-01-26 03:58:58 <BlueMatt> but there are hundreds of ways of totaling bw on linux
299 2012-01-26 04:00:11 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: sure, but is there a GUI for it!
300 2012-01-26 04:00:30 <doublec> pingdrive: are you on linux?
301 2012-01-26 04:00:35 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: there has to be a nice iptables gui somewhere (not that Ive ever looked)
302 2012-01-26 04:00:44 <BlueMatt> doublec: <pingdrive> ubuntu
303 2012-01-26 04:00:51 <sipa> shorewall?
304 2012-01-26 04:00:54 <sipa> ok, not GUI
305 2012-01-26 04:01:09 <BlueMatt> oh come on, totaling bw with iptables is like 2 commands
306 2012-01-26 04:01:16 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: I bet there is iptables based porn
307 2012-01-26 04:01:25 <pingdrive> webmin has a good gui
308 2012-01-26 04:01:28 <BlueMatt> even someone who has never used terminal can do that (if someone feels like reciting commands)
309 2012-01-26 04:01:35 <doublec> pingdrive: curl -H "Authorization: Basic abcdef" -d "{\"method\":\"getwork\",\"params\":[],\"id\":1}" http://127.0.0.1:8332/
310 2012-01-26 04:01:39 <pingdrive> but i was thinking about something more real time
311 2012-01-26 04:01:40 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: there is everything-based porn if you look long enough
312 2012-01-26 04:01:51 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: iptables is very real time
313 2012-01-26 04:01:55 <doublec> pingdrive: where 'abcdef' is the base64 encoding of "rpcusername:rpcpassword"
314 2012-01-26 04:02:08 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: you can see packet count and bw total since the rule was added
315 2012-01-26 04:02:14 <BlueMatt> what more can you want?
316 2012-01-26 04:02:31 <pingdrive> hmm
317 2012-01-26 04:02:36 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: he could want a GUI for it
318 2012-01-26 04:02:46 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: meh
319 2012-01-26 04:02:46 <pingdrive> i dont care about a gui
320 2012-01-26 04:03:01 <pingdrive> id settle for a text output
321 2012-01-26 04:03:08 <k9quaint> pingdrive: then you are in luck!
322 2012-01-26 04:03:17 * k9quaint unveils the linux command prompt!
323 2012-01-26 04:03:47 <pingdrive> no comment lol
324 2012-01-26 04:04:09 <BlueMatt> sudo iptables -A INPUT -s (remote ip here) -p tcp --sport (remote port here) and sudo iptables -A OUTPUT -d (remote ip here) -p tcp --dport (remote port here)
325 2012-01-26 04:04:17 <pingdrive> doublec, do i need to stop mining before i execute that
326 2012-01-26 04:04:33 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: jesus, type the magna carta why don't you
327 2012-01-26 04:04:35 <gmaxwell> On RPC bruteforce: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61172.0
328 2012-01-26 04:04:37 <doublec> pingdrive: no
329 2012-01-26 04:04:37 <BlueMatt> check bw with iptables -L -v
330 2012-01-26 04:05:44 <BlueMatt> doublec: do you know how many getworks/s a miner will send for a given mhash?
331 2012-01-26 04:05:54 <BlueMatt> (also dont you need to know which miner to know that)
332 2012-01-26 04:06:01 <k9quaint> nice, 191MB of dropped packets
333 2012-01-26 04:06:16 <doublec> BlueMatt: compute the average time it solves a difficulty 1 share - it'll submit and receive a getwork that often
334 2012-01-26 04:06:18 <k9quaint> my linux box piddled all over the carpet...packets everywhere
335 2012-01-26 04:06:36 <doublec> BlueMatt: and when a longpoll is received (once a minute?)
336 2012-01-26 04:06:41 <BlueMatt> doublec: plus some miners do weird things like request multiple getworks to have several available at once
337 2012-01-26 04:06:48 <doublec> BlueMatt: yeah, good point
338 2012-01-26 04:07:10 <doublec> gmaxwell: I guess people are probing for bitcoin rpc ports?
339 2012-01-26 04:07:13 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: I wasnt aware packets could fall out, what did the kernel freak out and start printing packets?
340 2012-01-26 04:07:40 <gmaxwell> doublec: yep.
341 2012-01-26 04:07:41 <BlueMatt> (literally printing like on paper, if you can remember paper)
342 2012-01-26 04:07:53 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: /dev/null filled up with all the porn site cookies I delete every day
343 2012-01-26 04:08:07 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: now thats some damn big data if you can fill /dev/null
344 2012-01-26 04:08:19 hexTech has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
345 2012-01-26 04:08:29 user__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
346 2012-01-26 04:08:40 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: its where I store my bitcoin wallet
347 2012-01-26 04:08:49 <k9quaint> 100% secure write only drive
348 2012-01-26 04:09:04 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: heh, now thats some talent if you can access your wallet after storing it on /dev/null
349 2012-01-26 04:09:23 hexTech has joined
350 2012-01-26 04:09:58 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: its my retirement savings, I won't touch it until I am 65
351 2012-01-26 04:10:05 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: heh
352 2012-01-26 04:10:22 <BlueMatt> damn you are in for one hell of a surprise when you are 65 ;)
353 2012-01-26 04:10:30 <k9quaint> 2 actually
354 2012-01-26 04:10:38 <BlueMatt> 2?
355 2012-01-26 04:10:38 <pingdrive> BlueMatt, your commands doent work
356 2012-01-26 04:10:45 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: error message?
357 2012-01-26 04:10:49 <k9quaint> the other being social security checks actually arriving ;)
358 2012-01-26 04:10:51 <pingdrive> no output
359 2012-01-26 04:10:53 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: heh
360 2012-01-26 04:10:55 <pingdrive> sudo iptables -A INPUT -s 172.16.1.2 -p tcp --sport 139
361 2012-01-26 04:10:58 <pingdrive> i got this
362 2012-01-26 04:11:00 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: the first two expect no output
363 2012-01-26 04:11:13 <BlueMatt> check with sudo iptables -L -v
364 2012-01-26 04:11:14 <pingdrive> oh
365 2012-01-26 04:11:16 <BlueMatt> see what you get then?
366 2012-01-26 04:11:58 <pingdrive> hmm
367 2012-01-26 04:12:04 <pingdrive> i got a table
368 2012-01-26 04:12:08 <pingdrive> of zeroes
369 2012-01-26 04:12:13 <BlueMatt> should see a line like "71902 98M tcp -- any any anywhere anywhere"
370 2012-01-26 04:12:20 <BlueMatt> (with more rules)
371 2012-01-26 04:13:37 <pingdrive> Chain INPUT (policy ACCEPT 3395 packets, 529K bytes)
372 2012-01-26 04:13:37 <pingdrive> pkts bytes target prot opt in out source destination
373 2012-01-26 04:13:37 <pingdrive> 0 0 tcp -- any any 172.16.1.2 anywhere tcp spt:netbios-ssn
374 2012-01-26 04:13:37 <pingdrive> 0 0 tcp -- any any 172.16.1.2 anywhere tcp spt:netbios-ssn
375 2012-01-26 04:13:38 <pingdrive> 0 0 tcp -- any any 172.16.1.2 anywhere tcp spt:netbios-ssn
376 2012-01-26 04:13:41 <pingdrive> 0 0 tcp -- any any 172.16.1.2 anywhere tcp spt:netbios-ssn
377 2012-01-26 04:13:44 <pingdrive> Chain FORWARD (policy ACCEPT 0 packets, 0 bytes)
378 2012-01-26 04:13:46 <pingdrive> pkts bytes target prot opt in out source destination
379 2012-01-26 04:13:48 <pingdrive> Chain OUTPUT (policy ACCEPT 3393 packets, 630K bytes)
380 2012-01-26 04:13:50 <pingdrive> pkts bytes target prot opt in out source destination
381 2012-01-26 04:13:52 <pingdrive> 0 0 tcp -- any any anywhere 172.16.1.2 tcp dpt:netbios-ssn
382 2012-01-26 04:13:57 <pingdrive> zeroes
383 2012-01-26 04:13:59 <pingdrive> ZEROES
384 2012-01-26 04:14:14 RobinPKR_ has joined
385 2012-01-26 04:14:28 <BlueMatt> ahhh, use pastebin
386 2012-01-26 04:14:54 <pingdrive> grr sorry
387 2012-01-26 04:15:04 <pingdrive> its okay
388 2012-01-26 04:15:14 <BlueMatt> you are using port 139 to mine on?
389 2012-01-26 04:15:50 <pingdrive> yes
390 2012-01-26 04:16:07 RobinPKR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
391 2012-01-26 04:16:08 RobinPKR_ is now known as RobinPKR
392 2012-01-26 04:16:16 <BlueMatt> maybe Im being a dumbass and have something the wrong way around try just "sudo iptables -A INPUT -s 172.16.1.2 -p tcp"
393 2012-01-26 04:16:21 <pingdrive> its on local network, this is what win 7 activity thing tells me its listening on
394 2012-01-26 04:16:42 <BlueMatt> wait, describe your setup?
395 2012-01-26 04:16:46 <BlueMatt> actually, pm
396 2012-01-26 04:17:21 user__ has joined
397 2012-01-26 04:18:14 <pingdrive> k
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429 2012-01-26 05:05:09 <sipa> first working addrman version: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/addrman
430 2012-01-26 05:05:13 <sipa> testers welcome!
431 2012-01-26 05:05:14 Karmaon has joined
432 2012-01-26 05:05:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: ^^
433 2012-01-26 05:05:43 <CIA-2> bitcoin: p2k * r3ea1cd489326 ecoinpool/apps/ecoinpool/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Accept Any Worker http://tinyurl.com/7kagdoq
434 2012-01-26 05:05:54 <doublec> what is addrman?
435 2012-01-26 05:05:59 <BlueMatt> arg, I wish I could pull-request someone else's branch so I can see diff from master
436 2012-01-26 05:06:21 <sipa> doublec: completely rewritten handling of addr.dat
437 2012-01-26 05:06:41 <doublec> nice
438 2012-01-26 05:06:50 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'll squash it into a single commit
439 2012-01-26 05:06:59 <BlueMatt> no need
440 2012-01-26 05:07:08 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/compare/master...addrman
441 2012-01-26 05:07:33 <BlueMatt> oh thats uglyhttps://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/compare/4c932cca...addrman
442 2012-01-26 05:07:35 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/compare/4c932cca...addrman
443 2012-01-26 05:07:37 <BlueMatt> there we go
444 2012-01-26 05:07:58 egecko has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
445 2012-01-26 05:12:56 <sipa> big idea: table of addresses is always in-memory and by design limited in size, and gets flushed to disk asynchonously
446 2012-01-26 05:13:33 <sipa> it is divided in several buckets, both for already-tried addresses and for new addresses
447 2012-01-26 05:13:57 <sipa> all accesses to the table are stochastic, with certain biases to improve performance
448 2012-01-26 05:14:47 <sipa> and which buckets are used depends on the source of the information, so no (localized) attacker can influence the entire table
449 2012-01-26 05:17:57 hexTech has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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452 2012-01-26 05:19:15 imsaguy is now known as [\\\]
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455 2012-01-26 05:25:43 <CIA-2> bitcoin: p2k * r90f226d0d9a2 ecoinpool/apps/ecoinpool/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Lowercase Worker Names http://tinyurl.com/732oasa
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463 2012-01-26 05:44:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: I approve of your handling of flux capacitor enabled nodes.
464 2012-01-26 05:47:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: :)
465 2012-01-26 05:47:16 <sipa> seems the unknown tables get filled very quickly... 256 buckets, 64 entries each, and a single address can occur in 4 different buckets
466 2012-01-26 05:47:56 <sipa> -> +- 256*64/4 = 4096 addresses in unknown table
467 2012-01-26 05:48:02 <sipa> not very much, actually
468 2012-01-26 05:49:50 <gmaxwell> How many distincts are you actually getting?
469 2012-01-26 05:50:23 <sipa> i currently have 4379 distinct unknown nodes, and 11 known one
470 2012-01-26 05:50:53 <sipa> there is theoretically place for between 4096 and 16384 unknown ones, depending on how often each one occurs
471 2012-01-26 05:51:14 <gmaxwell> Rightâ depending on how much duplication there is between sources too.
472 2012-01-26 05:52:19 <sipa> maybe some backoff is useful: if it already occurs in 1 bucket, have a 50% chance that it is not added to a second one
473 2012-01-26 05:52:55 <gmaxwell> That sounds usefulâ ... one annoying thing is that test results now are not the same as test results in a network using addrman (and other improvements)
474 2012-01-26 05:53:12 <sipa> hmm?
475 2012-01-26 05:53:45 <gmaxwell> I think we have a lot of long lived circulating junk addresses which won't tend to survive as long in the future.
476 2012-01-26 05:53:46 ThomasV_ has joined
477 2012-01-26 05:56:38 <midnightmagic> sipa: May I enquire as to the problem addrman solves?
478 2012-01-26 05:56:43 <gmaxwell> known won't populate quickly at all until we have roaming.
479 2012-01-26 05:57:07 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: addr.dat being 70 megabytes and adding a minute to node startup, among other things.
480 2012-01-26 05:57:12 <sipa> midnightmagic: the fact that i can now spam you with a billion addresses, and you will store them all
481 2012-01-26 05:57:27 <gmaxwell> (and that, _absent_ obvious attacks)
482 2012-01-26 05:57:46 <sipa> and given the idea to enable IPv6 connections, that possibility only grows
483 2012-01-26 06:02:42 <midnightmagic> Why a stochastic algorithm? What does that buy you?
484 2012-01-26 06:03:04 <sipa> making sure that no attackers knows precisely what's going on
485 2012-01-26 06:03:11 <sipa> (prevention of sybil attacks)
486 2012-01-26 06:03:33 <midnightmagic> fascinating.. cool beans man
487 2012-01-26 06:05:33 RazielZ has joined
488 2012-01-26 06:05:49 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rbc0703eaec79 eloipool/ (4 files): Add support for setworkaux JSON-RPC only from a secret user http://tinyurl.com/6t5dsgj
489 2012-01-26 06:10:39 dissipate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
490 2012-01-26 06:16:05 <midnightmagic> You mean sybil attacks forming the basis of network partitioning attacks and the like?
491 2012-01-26 06:17:15 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: so the new system doesn't keep many addresses.. if it was just FIFO someone could connect to you a bunch and tell you about a few thousand of their own nodes and purge out your memory.
492 2012-01-26 06:17:58 <midnightmagic> and thus isolate and/or partition me from the network, act as my sole bridge to legitimate nodes, and thus prevent my meaningful participation at-will..?
493 2012-01-26 06:18:03 <gmaxwell> Right.
494 2012-01-26 06:18:57 <midnightmagic> Have you seen any evidence that someone has attempted such a thing already? (Aside from say.. just mass-connect observational nodes for example.)
495 2012-01-26 06:20:41 <sipa> I certainly haven't
496 2012-01-26 06:20:57 <gmaxwell> Hard to tellâ but thats not the question, any system which prevents the address flodding DOS will have to do it by reducing the amount of addresses we remember from unbounded. In doing so it will increase the exposure to those attacks unless it takes care to avoid it.
497 2012-01-26 06:21:45 <gmaxwell> (right now you wouldn't do those attacks via address flooding, you'd use IRC for it because of how IRC interacts with peer selection)
498 2012-01-26 06:22:07 <sipa> Right, the current system basically keeps almost all addresses around forever - always leaving a chance for an old pre-sybil-attack address to pop up.
499 2012-01-26 06:22:11 <Diablo-D3> http://ur1.ca/7sqrz
500 2012-01-26 06:22:15 <midnightmagic> address flooding DOS in that example you are describing as filling addr.dat with billions, thus consuming resources, leaving alone the idea of more malicious, targetted/control attacks.
501 2012-01-26 06:22:17 <Diablo-D3> 15% off until jan 30th
502 2012-01-26 06:23:40 <midnightmagic> That's a pretty good price for a 1kW psu, 80+
503 2012-01-26 06:23:43 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: under IPv6 it could be pretty devistatingâ fill your disk, and leave you unable to find good nodes among all the cruft except via whatever the IRC server tells you)
504 2012-01-26 06:24:03 <midnightmagic> indeed!
505 2012-01-26 06:24:18 <Diablo-D3> dude
506 2012-01-26 06:24:20 <Diablo-D3> hale 90s
507 2012-01-26 06:24:21 <Diablo-D3> 15% off
508 2012-01-26 06:24:24 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: and even without attacks, and without v6, addr.dat at 70MB on some systems and getting close to a minute to load is a problem.
509 2012-01-26 06:24:25 <Diablo-D3> how can you people resist
510 2012-01-26 06:24:28 <midnightmagic> it makes me think satoshi left out ipv6 on purpose.
511 2012-01-26 06:24:46 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: btw, the reason it takes so fucking long to load is because libbdb sucks dick
512 2012-01-26 06:24:55 <midnightmagic> it doesn't have to.
513 2012-01-26 06:25:09 <Diablo-D3> we should just say fuck it with the db, and assume all ipv4s run bitcoin
514 2012-01-26 06:25:13 <Diablo-D3> and then start randomly connecting
515 2012-01-26 06:25:18 <midnightmagic> some software uses modified bdb and deals with million-strong queries in seconds..
516 2012-01-26 06:25:31 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yea, thats going to be really effective with only a couple thousand listening nodes.
517 2012-01-26 06:25:42 <Diablo-D3> thousand now
518 2012-01-26 06:25:44 <Diablo-D3> billions later
519 2012-01-26 06:26:01 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: and it's going to just make lots of people lllluuuve bitcoin, as if our connecting to IRC wasn't bad enough.
520 2012-01-26 06:27:16 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: in any case, the randomized multibin stuff is belt&suspenders it's not addressing a current attack, it's preventing a new one from arising as a result of fixing the resource usage + dos vulnerability.
521 2012-01-26 06:28:01 <midnightmagic> no I don't mean to imply a design like this should be in reaction to an observed attack. systems that behave in such a way deserve to be waylaid.
522 2012-01-26 06:28:10 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: so why don't we just continue using irc?
523 2012-01-26 06:28:12 <Diablo-D3> to connect
524 2012-01-26 06:28:28 <midnightmagic> because lfnet might be evil.
525 2012-01-26 06:28:34 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but why only lfnet
526 2012-01-26 06:28:38 <Diablo-D3> connect to ALL the irc networks
527 2012-01-26 06:28:49 <midnightmagic> irc networks would autoban :-/
528 2012-01-26 06:28:49 <gmaxwell> IRC is pretty crap all around.
529 2012-01-26 06:28:57 <Diablo-D3> well its either that
530 2012-01-26 06:28:58 <gmaxwell> (for this)
531 2012-01-26 06:29:00 <Diablo-D3> or keep hardcoded nodes
532 2012-01-26 06:29:04 <gmaxwell> ...
533 2012-01-26 06:29:07 <gmaxwell> no.
534 2012-01-26 06:29:29 <Diablo-D3> so random ip checking it is?
535 2012-01-26 06:30:09 <gmaxwell> No. We have dnsseed for boostraping.
536 2012-01-26 06:30:47 <lianj> i would trust if sites like eff provided me with bootstrap nodes over https. but dns seed is kinda good also
537 2012-01-26 06:31:15 <gmaxwell> dnsseed is lightweight enough that you can have a whole bunch of them.
538 2012-01-26 06:31:23 weather has joined
539 2012-01-26 06:32:22 <lianj> its easily fakeable if in targeted cases someone wanted to
540 2012-01-26 06:33:56 <gmaxwell> lianj: if somebody controls your network connection we have zero resistance to that attack. You're going to be talking to them.
541 2012-01-26 06:34:42 <gmaxwell> lianj: if they do not have a fair amount of control over your network connections then dnsseed is not fakable. (though obviously I think we should get results from mutliple sources)
542 2012-01-26 06:34:52 <lianj> hm true
543 2012-01-26 06:35:13 weather is now known as BeTep
544 2012-01-26 06:42:17 <gmaxwell> Though you raise a point wrt the weaknesses of dnsseed... It may be easier to compromise specific high traffic recursive resolvers than a bunch of users whole network connections.
545 2012-01-26 06:42:21 <gmaxwell> e.g. own up opendns.
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557 2012-01-26 06:53:54 <Joric> rexcoin rules http://i40.tinypic.com/1e18pe.png
558 2012-01-26 06:54:15 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
559 2012-01-26 06:54:18 <Joric> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60982.0 <-
560 2012-01-26 06:57:13 <gmaxwell> sometimes I don't know what posts on the forum are serious or are performance art.
561 2012-01-26 06:57:39 pickett has joined
562 2012-01-26 06:58:29 <gmaxwell> though that sometimes makes them more fun to respond to: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57253.msg682056#msg682056
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569 2012-01-26 07:05:29 <sipa> lol @ n-th Ackermann order
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576 2012-01-26 07:33:58 <krysits> there is no fucking college i mny area = gazelle what do u do gazell
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588 2012-01-26 08:16:12 <krysits> SSS.exe
589 2012-01-26 08:16:20 <krysits> 777
590 2012-01-26 08:16:39 larsivi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
591 2012-01-26 08:17:19 krysits has quit ()
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597 2012-01-26 08:25:45 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r5fe3d6..dc2c64 eloipool/ (config.py.example jsonrpcserver.py eloipool.py): (7 commits) http://tinyurl.com/8978g8s
598 2012-01-26 08:29:05 MrTiggr has joined
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602 2012-01-26 08:35:56 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r852b87f06b89 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Silence error when HTTP connection doesn't send request path http://tinyurl.com/775nwzo
603 2012-01-26 08:35:58 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rb59bed808bdd eloipool/eloipool.py: Move basic sanity checks a bit earlier http://tinyurl.com/73lxfeo
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610 2012-01-26 08:55:44 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r2ecabd853501 cgminer/ocl.c: Some opencl compilers have issues with no spaces after -D in the compiler options. http://tinyurl.com/8x3nhmb
611 2012-01-26 08:55:45 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rc87460b34ece cgminer/ocl.c: Typo. http://tinyurl.com/7vr8wet
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619 2012-01-26 09:15:56 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, cool, thanks, I'll know where to look next :-)
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627 2012-01-26 09:37:16 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
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635 2012-01-26 09:55:42 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rd18d55649f12 cgminer/ocl.c: Do not attempt to build the program that becomes the kernel twice. This could have been leading to failures on initialising cl. http://tinyurl.com/7v5s364
636 2012-01-26 10:03:46 hexTech has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
637 2012-01-26 10:04:33 hexTech has joined
638 2012-01-26 10:05:37 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r32910463a312 cgminer/ocl.c: Don't explicitly retain the cl program as it is of no benefit to do so and may lead to problems when trying to release the program. http://tinyurl.com/77m997n
639 2012-01-26 10:07:31 has joined
640 2012-01-26 10:14:11 <krysits> i em beck
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646 2012-01-26 10:20:44 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Kano * r63e31b4d7801 cgminer/ (api.c main.c miner.h): Move intensity range values into miner.h http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/cpuminer/cgminer.git/commitdiff/63e31b4d7801d2d00a64744505d4320da18c3c49
647 2012-01-26 10:20:48 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Kano * r487327f83df7 cgminer/adl.c: Remove compile warning http://tinyurl.com/7gtw26o
648 2012-01-26 10:20:50 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Kano * r5e9676c23c7e cgminer/main.c: Allow dynamic to adjust up to MAX_INTENSITY http://tinyurl.com/7jynaj5
649 2012-01-26 10:20:51 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r1334e17c52af cgminer/ (adl.c api.c main.c miner.h): Merge pull request #96 from kanoi/master http://tinyurl.com/86dmo56
650 2012-01-26 10:21:03 <RAM2012> hey guys I have a quick question about clients and address generation...
651 2012-01-26 10:21:39 <RAM2012> I've heard that the max amount of addresses for a single bitcoind instance is 100 addresses, is that right?
652 2012-01-26 10:21:47 <marf_away> no
653 2012-01-26 10:22:00 <marf_away> you can allways generate new ones
654 2012-01-26 10:22:00 <RAM2012> can I have unlimited addresses?
655 2012-01-26 10:22:03 <marf_away> its done automatic
656 2012-01-26 10:22:11 <marf_away> yes
657 2012-01-26 10:22:29 <marf_away> after some million addresses bitcoin gets slow
658 2012-01-26 10:22:30 <marf_away> ;D
659 2012-01-26 10:22:51 <RAM2012> will generating thousand of addresses take up a ton of HD space?
660 2012-01-26 10:23:02 <marf_away> no
661 2012-01-26 10:23:35 <marf_away> big wallets are 20-30 mb i think
662 2012-01-26 10:23:58 <RAM2012> is there a way to have bitcoind spit out some info when it detects a new deposit has occured into one of the addresses?
663 2012-01-26 10:24:15 <marf_away> idk i think yes
664 2012-01-26 10:24:36 <RAM2012> well, without custom hardcoding that feature in I mean...
665 2012-01-26 10:24:49 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
666 2012-01-26 10:25:32 <RAM2012> I guess maybe thats not important. 1,000,000 adresses should be plenty for now :)
667 2012-01-26 10:25:39 cdecker has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
668 2012-01-26 10:26:32 RAM2012 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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670 2012-01-26 10:30:53 <Joric> sipa, ppl asking about the privkey version for ixcoin what it should be? ie. mainnet: 0/128, testnet: 111/239, ixcoin: 138/... -> oops we're out of byte
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674 2012-01-26 10:31:32 <doublec> Joric: ixcoin doesn't have a working testnet
675 2012-01-26 10:32:06 <Joric> doublec, that's not what i asked
676 2012-01-26 10:32:23 <doublec> oh, I thought that what you had the ... for
677 2012-01-26 10:32:44 BCBot has joined
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679 2012-01-26 10:34:09 <Joric> i thought privkey address version is pubkey address version & 128, but ixcoin's high bit is already set
680 2012-01-26 10:34:27 <Joric> | 128 sorry )
681 2012-01-26 10:34:40 <Joric> erm?
682 2012-01-26 10:35:11 <Joric> looks like pipe is the command prefix for the local bot SuprTiggr
683 2012-01-26 10:35:17 <Joric> |hi there
684 2012-01-26 10:35:36 <Joric> |help
685 2012-01-26 10:35:37 <SuprTiggr> Joric: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
686 2012-01-26 10:35:55 <Joric> anyone?
687 2012-01-26 10:36:40 <doublec> Joric: I'm not sure what you are asking
688 2012-01-26 10:36:48 <doublec> Joric: address version for ixcoin is 138
689 2012-01-26 10:37:06 <doublec> oh I see, sorry
690 2012-01-26 10:39:38 <Joric> btw what those ixcoins are for?
691 2012-01-26 10:39:45 iocor has joined
692 2012-01-26 10:42:09 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
693 2012-01-26 10:42:59 <Joric> http://ixcoin.org/wiki/index.php/Trade
694 2012-01-26 10:43:34 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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697 2012-01-26 10:48:15 <doublec> no idea, I don't think anyone uses them anymore
698 2012-01-26 10:49:50 <Joric> sipa, could it be considered as an ixcoin's issue? ) i thought 7th bit is for private addresses
699 2012-01-26 10:53:47 <Joric> ixcoin - first commit aug 16 2011, showwallet - authored jul 12 2011 :D
700 2012-01-26 10:54:14 hexTech has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
701 2012-01-26 10:54:58 <Joric> have no idea why they chose addrtype 138 it's their problem now
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721 2012-01-26 11:30:41 <Joric> stallman should hate bitcoins, as they are not GPLed
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726 2012-01-26 11:45:09 <wumpus> there's nothing stopping you from re-licensing a bitcoin fork as GPL
727 2012-01-26 11:46:20 <Joric> yeh but there's nothing stopping from re-licensing as a closed source either )
728 2012-01-26 11:47:00 <wumpus> but not the GPLed fork :)
729 2012-01-26 11:47:24 iocor has joined
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731 2012-01-26 11:53:33 <wumpus> but I don't think stallman would be interested in bitcoin anyway, he doesn't seem like the capitalistic type
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748 2012-01-26 12:37:18 <JFK911> give him free bitcoins i bet he will take him
749 2012-01-26 12:37:26 <JFK911> thats how he gets housing, food and clothes
750 2012-01-26 12:41:51 att has joined
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752 2012-01-26 12:45:44 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r06fd9c4a4c04 cgminer/ (adl.c miner.h): Detect dual GPU cards by iterating through all GPUs, finding ones without fanspeed and matching twins with fanspeed one bus ID apart. http://tinyurl.com/899p6yq
753 2012-01-26 12:45:46 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rfe88648e5d68 cgminer/util.c: Advertise longpoll support in X-Mining-Extensions http://tinyurl.com/6mxww6z
754 2012-01-26 12:45:51 <Joric> actually stallman currently lives off giving advices about using GPL, $200 a hour
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762 2012-01-26 13:15:46 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r5869382d40c5 cgminer/main.c: Change the warning that comes with failure to init cl on a device to be more generic and accurate. http://tinyurl.com/82rjh47
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783 2012-01-26 14:05:43 <CIA-2> bitcoin: p2k * r3bf07fdf69d8 ecoinpool/apps/ecoinpool/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Add Option to Disable Aux Longpolling http://tinyurl.com/7vzl3zz
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787 2012-01-26 14:14:31 <helo> bitcoins are capitalistic?
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802 2012-01-26 14:40:29 <Graet> no people are....
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842 2012-01-26 16:03:48 <Joric> sipa, you here?
843 2012-01-26 16:04:33 <Joric> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34028.msg714516 he's asking about WIF prefix for ixcoin i'm out of ideas
844 2012-01-26 16:04:42 Karmaon has joined
845 2012-01-26 16:04:54 <UukGoblin> have we got satoshi's public gpg key?
846 2012-01-26 16:05:50 <Joric> i haven't
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853 2012-01-26 16:30:19 <slush> gavinandresen: ping?
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877 2012-01-26 17:54:53 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ping
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881 2012-01-26 17:57:48 <wumpus> BlueMatt: hey
882 2012-01-26 17:58:37 <BlueMatt> wumpus: Do you have any further comments on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/593 ? It looks like no one else cares to comment and I (really) want to get this merged before 0.6 locks down for rc
883 2012-01-26 17:59:22 <wumpus> nope, I have no further comments on that
884 2012-01-26 17:59:37 <BlueMatt> do you care to merge it then?
885 2012-01-26 18:00:27 <wumpus> yep I intend to, when will 0.6 lock down for rc?
886 2012-01-26 18:00:49 <BlueMatt> as soon as gavin feels like there is some consensus on p2sh (which I would bet will be quite soon)
887 2012-01-26 18:01:23 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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892 2012-01-26 18:02:59 <BlueMatt> wumpus: what difference does it make if its merged today or in a month, it probably wont get another eyeball on it until it hits the main codebase anyway
893 2012-01-26 18:03:03 agricocb has joined
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896 2012-01-26 18:03:17 <wumpus> yeah I'll try to do it today
897 2012-01-26 18:06:54 <BlueMatt> thanks
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901 2012-01-26 18:14:36 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r70f5535 / (17 files in 5 dirs): Merge pull request #593 (Full URL Support in bitcoin-qt) - http://git.io/Y10C8A https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/70f55355e29c8e45b607e782c5d76609d23cc858
902 2012-01-26 18:17:48 <BlueMatt> wumpus: thank you very much
903 2012-01-26 18:18:35 <sipa> ;;later tell Joric I don't know about ixcoin, and don't really care - the prefix is up to them
904 2012-01-26 18:18:35 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
905 2012-01-26 18:19:07 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: did you do something with the multiclient race that I commented on?
906 2012-01-26 18:19:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, that was dealt with
907 2012-01-26 18:19:38 <gmaxwell> Great!
908 2012-01-26 18:19:48 [Tycho] has joined
909 2012-01-26 18:19:57 <BlueMatt> (sadly its the most recently opened client that gets the uris, but oh well)
910 2012-01-26 18:20:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/785
911 2012-01-26 18:20:41 <BlueMatt> there is that too
912 2012-01-26 18:21:37 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
913 2012-01-26 18:22:48 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened issue 785 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/785>
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919 2012-01-26 18:37:56 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 786 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/786>
920 2012-01-26 18:42:22 <luke-jr> wumpus: hey, hasn't signmessage been waiting longer? :P
921 2012-01-26 18:43:20 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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924 2012-01-26 18:45:47 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r392a49dcad19 eloipool/ (jsonrpcserver.py util.py): JSONRPCServer: Replace asyncore with raw epoll implementation http://tinyurl.com/87q4r84
925 2012-01-26 18:45:48 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r2cbe5a6c722f eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Bugfix: asynchat.find_prefix_at_end returns lengths, not positions, so we want max instead of min http://tinyurl.com/6mbjffs
926 2012-01-26 18:46:12 <wumpus> yes, it I believe it has
927 2012-01-26 18:47:44 <luke-jr> wumpus: can you get that in too, or was there something left to address before merging?
928 2012-01-26 18:47:59 <wumpus> you changed it from a tab to a menu option right?
929 2012-01-26 18:48:15 <luke-jr> yes
930 2012-01-26 18:48:23 <luke-jr> also, there's a button on the Receive Coins list
931 2012-01-26 18:48:32 <BlueMatt> does it still open in the main window, or in a new window?
932 2012-01-26 18:48:33 <luke-jr> so you can select an address and click Sign
933 2012-01-26 18:48:49 <BlueMatt> (main window and deselect all tabs?)
934 2012-01-26 18:53:04 * BlueMatt -> class
935 2012-01-26 18:53:05 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
936 2012-01-26 18:53:34 <sipa> i don't see a menu option anywhere?
937 2012-01-26 18:53:45 <sipa> (first time i try signmessage_gui)
938 2012-01-26 18:54:32 <luke-jr> sipa: menu options were all moved to the systray for some reason a while ago
939 2012-01-26 18:54:44 <sipa> heh?
940 2012-01-26 18:54:50 <sipa> i have no systray
941 2012-01-26 18:54:52 <luke-jr> I'd prefer it being on the window menu again, but that's not related to signmessage
942 2012-01-26 18:55:02 <luke-jr> sipa: then access via Receive I guess
943 2012-01-26 18:55:13 <luke-jr> wumpus: was there a reason to remove thigns from the File menu btw?
944 2012-01-26 18:56:05 <sipa> fine, i'll start kde
945 2012-01-26 18:57:25 pingdrive has joined
946 2012-01-26 18:59:22 <sipa> that looks very inconsistent: it's a tab, but it is not listed as a tab, and you need to go to the systray to activate it, even if it is an action related to what's happening on the main window?
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950 2012-01-26 19:06:18 <luke-jr> sipa: I think it makes most sense as a tab. And you don't *need* to use the systray to get to it.
951 2012-01-26 19:06:27 <luke-jr> sipa: but the other people thought it should be semi-hidden
952 2012-01-26 19:07:34 guap31 has joined
953 2012-01-26 19:08:39 <sipa> how do you otherwise access it?
954 2012-01-26 19:08:45 <sipa> if not via the systray?
955 2012-01-26 19:09:05 <luke-jr> Receive Coins tab
956 2012-01-26 19:09:12 <luke-jr> select one of your address and click Sign Message
957 2012-01-26 19:09:34 copumpkin is now known as TwoFixt
958 2012-01-26 19:09:36 <sipa> ah, right
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960 2012-01-26 19:09:39 <sipa> that's good
961 2012-01-26 19:11:09 Ahimoth has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
962 2012-01-26 19:12:17 <wumpus> no, not everything was moved to the sys tray
963 2012-01-26 19:12:50 * guap31 estoy en www.sex-all.com [ HOla quieres verme www.sex-all.com ] [8mins]
964 2012-01-26 19:12:51 <wumpus> we removed the tabs actions from the file menu
965 2012-01-26 19:13:04 <wumpus> (send coins, receive coins, ...) as they're simply tabs
966 2012-01-26 19:13:13 <wumpus> you can still add non-tab commands to the menu ofc
967 2012-01-26 19:13:17 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
968 2012-01-26 19:13:36 <sipa> either make it a tab, and list it as a tab
969 2012-01-26 19:13:46 <sipa> or make it a pop-up and make it accessible through the menu
970 2012-01-26 19:14:03 <wumpus> yep
971 2012-01-26 19:14:06 <sipa> i'd prefer the second
972 2012-01-26 19:14:08 <luke-jr> it should be a tab then :p
973 2012-01-26 19:14:11 <wumpus> the second, indeed
974 2012-01-26 19:14:17 <wumpus> there's already too many tabs
975 2012-01-26 19:14:29 <luke-jr> fine, so how do I easily make a tab into a popup? -.-
976 2012-01-26 19:14:32 <wumpus> such an obscure feature should not be a tab
977 2012-01-26 19:14:56 <wumpus> call ->show
978 2012-01-26 19:15:00 <wumpus> and don't parent it to anything
979 2012-01-26 19:15:03 <wumpus> simple as that :)
980 2012-01-26 19:15:25 <luke-jr> wumpus: it's only obscure because there's no easy way to use it ;0
981 2012-01-26 19:15:31 TwoFixt is now known as copumpkin
982 2012-01-26 19:15:52 <wumpus> that's for a normal window, if you want it to be a modal dialog box you need to derive from QDialog and call ->exec
983 2012-01-26 19:15:56 <sipa> luke-jr: obscure is maybe the wrong term, but it is definitely not something people will use frequently
984 2012-01-26 19:16:18 <sipa> having it as a tab would cause more confusion imho
985 2012-01-26 19:16:38 <wumpus> well it's obscure in that most people will never use it..but we had this discussion many times before
986 2012-01-26 19:17:15 <wumpus> I'm ok with adding it but please just hide it in a menu
987 2012-01-26 19:17:45 booo has joined
988 2012-01-26 19:17:48 <gmaxwell> I like clicking on an address to get to it. Not very discoverable, but it doesn't need to be.
989 2012-01-26 19:18:03 <sipa> yes, that is fine by me as well
990 2012-01-26 19:18:29 sacredchao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
991 2012-01-26 19:18:35 <wumpus> yep
992 2012-01-26 19:18:58 <luke-jr> so no menu item at all?
993 2012-01-26 19:19:22 <wumpus> a menu item is fine
994 2012-01-26 19:19:29 <sipa> signmessage in pop-up, accessible via a menu option or via the button under address
995 2012-01-26 19:19:36 <wumpus> yes
996 2012-01-26 19:19:36 <sipa> either or both is fine by me
997 2012-01-26 19:19:51 <wumpus> yes I meant both
998 2012-01-26 19:20:07 baz has joined
999 2012-01-26 19:20:42 <gmaxwell> wumpus: is there some widget in QT that gives something like a text box with readlineâ we could add a 'console' to the gui client in order to avoid the feature gap with the cli for advanced features that are cli first before we figure out the UI for them?
1000 2012-01-26 19:20:50 * guap31 estoy en www.sex-all.com [ HOla quieres verme www.sex-all.com ] [16mins]
1001 2012-01-26 19:21:22 <luke-jr> OneFixt: how about perm this time?
1002 2012-01-26 19:22:10 <luke-jr> wow, Bitcoin-Qt is taking forever to start suddenly :/
1003 2012-01-26 19:22:33 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: what step in the debug log?
1004 2012-01-26 19:22:40 <wumpus> gmaxwell: afaik there's not such a widget in Qt directly, but it could be implemented with two boxes, one that prints the output and one that takes the commands
1005 2012-01-26 19:22:41 <luke-jr> mapAddressBook.size() = 761
1006 2012-01-26 19:22:46 <luke-jr> ton of IO
1007 2012-01-26 19:23:01 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I agree it would be useful
1008 2012-01-26 19:23:25 <gmaxwell> wumpus: that would work.
1009 2012-01-26 19:24:25 <sipa> luke-jr: does it happen a second time, if you close it and restart?
1010 2012-01-26 19:24:36 <luke-jr> sipa: no
1011 2012-01-26 19:24:54 sacredchao has joined
1012 2012-01-26 19:25:08 Nicksasa has joined
1013 2012-01-26 19:25:25 <luke-jr> BTW, just in case it's helpful to anyone, my GNUmakefile: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/541215/
1014 2012-01-26 19:25:34 larsivi has joined
1015 2012-01-26 19:25:35 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it's helpful if you have log timestamps.. you could can say, e.g. it's taking n seconds.
1016 2012-01-26 19:26:00 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1017 2012-01-26 19:26:48 <luke-jr> it was minutes :P
1018 2012-01-26 19:27:13 <gmaxwell> 0_o
1019 2012-01-26 19:27:46 <diki> I officially broke abe...cool, now I have to rebuild it
1020 2012-01-26 19:27:53 b4epoche_ has joined
1021 2012-01-26 19:27:56 <diki> as in...days and days...fuck
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1023 2012-01-26 19:28:39 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
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1025 2012-01-26 19:30:08 traviscj has joined
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1027 2012-01-26 19:31:37 <wumpus> can someone kick the spammer please?
1028 2012-01-26 19:31:56 marf_away has joined
1029 2012-01-26 19:33:01 <luke-jr> wumpus: OK, new version pushed
1030 2012-01-26 19:33:10 <wumpus> great!
1031 2012-01-26 19:33:21 <luke-jr> by default, it uses a new window, and is accessible via Receive Coins button, systray menu, and File menu
1032 2012-01-26 19:33:37 <luke-jr> qmake FIRST_CLASS_MESSAGING=1 moves it inside the main window, with a tab, without a File menu entry
1033 2012-01-26 19:34:13 <luke-jr> that work for everyone? ;)
1034 2012-01-26 19:34:54 lyspooner has joined
1035 2012-01-26 19:35:35 <luke-jr> hold on, found a weird thing
1036 2012-01-26 19:35:58 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: meh, configuration options are meh.
1037 2012-01-26 19:36:20 <gmaxwell> the kind of user who needs that visibilty isn't building it themselves.
1038 2012-01-26 19:36:50 * guap31 estoy en www.sex-all.com [ HOla quieres verme www.sex-all.com ] [32mins]
1039 2012-01-26 19:37:25 <wumpus> I suspect luke-jr plans to host his own packages built with that option
1040 2012-01-26 19:37:28 <sipa> it's a bit strange to have only signmessage in the file menu
1041 2012-01-26 19:37:45 <wumpus> well, for now it's the only "extra" command we have
1042 2012-01-26 19:37:56 <sipa> then why call it "file" ?
1043 2012-01-26 19:38:04 <wumpus> that'll probably change in the future
1044 2012-01-26 19:38:07 <wumpus> with importing wallets etc
1045 2012-01-26 19:38:10 <sipa> or, why not under "extra" or something
1046 2012-01-26 19:38:25 <gmaxwell> wumpus: why is there not a file->backupwallet in the gui btw?
1047 2012-01-26 19:38:28 <wumpus> having a file menu is a kind of convention
1048 2012-01-26 19:38:40 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, there should be
1049 2012-01-26 19:39:12 <sipa> wumpus: i'd like to work a bit on multiple wallet support somewhere in the future
1050 2012-01-26 19:39:19 <luke-jr> right now, the Sign Message window is always-on-top-of-bitcoin-qt when open; is that desirable?
1051 2012-01-26 19:39:28 <wumpus> so please keep the file menu
1052 2012-01-26 19:39:34 <wumpus> I don't care luke-jr
1053 2012-01-26 19:39:43 <wumpus> people will only open it when they need it
1054 2012-01-26 19:39:45 <sipa> luke-jr: i don't mind
1055 2012-01-26 19:39:56 <luke-jr> I'd personally rather it be a regular window and reselecting the menu item brings to foreground, but shrug
1056 2012-01-26 19:40:08 <sipa> wumpus: where you can open a wallet file, and get a window per wallet or so
1057 2012-01-26 19:40:11 <wumpus> well, change it to a regular window then
1058 2012-01-26 19:40:34 <luke-jr> hmm, that's cute
1059 2012-01-26 19:40:37 <wumpus> sipa: yes that'd be nice!
1060 2012-01-26 19:40:45 <luke-jr> the QR-Code window is also always-on-top, but DOESN'T hide when you hide the main window
1061 2012-01-26 19:40:47 <sipa> though i'll need help on the GUI side
1062 2012-01-26 19:40:51 <CIA-2> bitcoin: various signmessage_gui * r7f291e..137d06 bitcoind-personal/ (29 files in 7 dirs): (6 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3py2g44
1063 2012-01-26 19:41:20 <sipa> the problem is: what to do with the database/log files when you are allowed to open an arbitrarily-located file as wallet
1064 2012-01-26 19:41:42 <luke-jr> wumpus: OK, I guess it's fine like this
1065 2012-01-26 19:41:56 <luke-jr> sipa: better to get rid of bdb for wallet IMO :p
1066 2012-01-26 19:41:59 <wumpus> and: where do we store the settings? it makes no sense, but right now we store the global client settings in the wallet
1067 2012-01-26 19:42:16 <wumpus> with multiple wallet support that is even crazier
1068 2012-01-26 19:42:19 <sipa> luke-jr: maybe, yes
1069 2012-01-26 19:42:28 Transformer has joined
1070 2012-01-26 19:42:30 <sipa> we load it in memory entirely anyway
1071 2012-01-26 19:43:00 <wumpus> yes, a simple append-only text file for private keys, we discussed that
1072 2012-01-26 19:43:13 <wumpus> but it's orthagonal to multiple wallet support really
1073 2012-01-26 19:43:35 <sipa> from a discussion yesterday: that means a problem when people go copying key files around, without the corresponding transactions
1074 2012-01-26 19:44:12 <wumpus> maybe add those in too, then
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1077 2012-01-26 19:45:11 <sipa> what could be done, is just keep keys&transactions in-memory, and do e.g. a serialization to JSON/XML/... for dumping it to a file
1078 2012-01-26 19:45:27 <sipa> and do that after every change
1079 2012-01-26 19:45:41 <wumpus> I like the append-only idea much better than an overwrite every time
1080 2012-01-26 19:45:57 <sipa> append-only is not possible if you want transactions in there
1081 2012-01-26 19:46:08 <sipa> well, actually, yes
1082 2012-01-26 19:46:10 <wumpus> it sounds scary, what if it quits in mid-write... bdb is much more robust
1083 2012-01-26 19:46:25 <sipa> wumpus: you write to a new file of course, and the move()
1084 2012-01-26 19:46:40 <sipa> eh, rename()
1085 2012-01-26 19:46:49 <wumpus> yes but that'd break symbolic linking
1086 2012-01-26 19:47:00 <sipa> true
1087 2012-01-26 19:47:19 <wumpus> why would append-only not be possible with transactions?
1088 2012-01-26 19:47:36 <sipa> spentness of txouts
1089 2012-01-26 19:47:43 <sipa> and maybe updateable comments
1090 2012-01-26 19:48:02 <wumpus> yes, the mutable metadata would have to go somewhere else
1091 2012-01-26 19:48:14 <sipa> but that breaks consistency again
1092 2012-01-26 19:48:38 <sipa> you do not want people to go copying the nicely human-readable data without the corresponding mutable metadata
1093 2012-01-26 19:49:47 <sipa> another problem with overwriting each time is what if the file gets really big, of course
1094 2012-01-26 19:49:57 <wumpus> right, I think staying with a fully fledged, robust database is best for now
1095 2012-01-26 19:50:44 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr signmessage_gui * ra6d3a1ff9e7d bitcoind-personal/ (12 files in 4 dirs): Bitcoin-Qt signmessage GUI http://tinyurl.com/7oqsv7p
1096 2012-01-26 19:52:29 <sipa> another possibility is a form of a log-like wallet file
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1098 2012-01-26 19:53:00 <sipa> which includes "key ..." and "tx ..." lines, as well as "spend ..." lines when a txout is spent
1099 2012-01-26 19:53:38 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1100 2012-01-26 19:54:00 TD has joined
1101 2012-01-26 19:54:02 <sipa> and is append-only
1102 2012-01-26 19:54:07 <wumpus> sounds good
1103 2012-01-26 19:55:56 <luke-jr> wumpus: so does that patch look good? :P
1104 2012-01-26 19:56:10 <wumpus> yes, I'll test it later
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1112 2012-01-26 20:05:38 <copumpkin> ops?
1113 2012-01-26 20:05:40 <copumpkin> OneFixt
1114 2012-01-26 20:05:43 baz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1115 2012-01-26 20:05:58 <OneFixt> o/
1116 2012-01-26 20:06:08 <copumpkin> OneFixt: spam
1117 2012-01-26 20:07:23 <copumpkin> :) thanks
1118 2012-01-26 20:07:27 <OneFixt> np
1119 2012-01-26 20:08:37 <diki> wondering how no OPs saw it earlier
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1130 2012-01-26 20:41:22 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rcff5a40a46b1 eloipool/ (jsonrpcserver.py util.py): Use a priority queue (aka heapq) to track scheduled tasks more efficiently http://tinyurl.com/7tllfnw
1131 2012-01-26 20:41:59 JFK911 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1132 2012-01-26 20:43:13 <diki> gavinandresen:the p2sh thing is a double edged sword
1133 2012-01-26 20:43:37 <diki> If someone takes your wallet, you he can't spend the coins, but same goes for you as well
1134 2012-01-26 20:43:53 <[eval]> diki: that's not true; you can still spend your coins.
1135 2012-01-26 20:44:01 <[eval]> (assuming by "takes" you mean "copies")
1136 2012-01-26 20:44:02 <gavinandresen> diki: backup is a separate issue (but also made easier with p2sh)
1137 2012-01-26 20:44:17 <luke-jr> how does p2sh make backup easier? O.o
1138 2012-01-26 20:44:52 <gavinandresen> You could use 2-of-3 transactions. Keys on cell phone and computer are the normal 2.
1139 2012-01-26 20:45:00 <gavinandresen> Third is a key you printout and keep in your vault.
1140 2012-01-26 20:45:00 <luke-jr> i c
1141 2012-01-26 20:45:05 <luke-jr> true
1142 2012-01-26 20:45:47 <gavinandresen> (you might want the cell phone keys to be deterministic and print the seed out, too, in case you lose your cell phone AND your computer when your house burns down)
1143 2012-01-26 20:46:16 JFK911 has joined
1144 2012-01-26 20:46:21 <diki> gavinandresen:and who is going to write A client for symbian(my phone)?
1145 2012-01-26 20:46:25 <luke-jr> yeah, I'd love to see deterministic keys in all cases anyway
1146 2012-01-26 20:46:37 <luke-jr> that drastically improves backups without compromising privacy
1147 2012-01-26 20:46:40 <gavinandresen> diki: I dunno nuthin about writing software for phones.....
1148 2012-01-26 20:46:47 <luke-jr> diki: Symbian is dead ;)
1149 2012-01-26 20:46:51 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: agreed
1150 2012-01-26 20:46:57 <luke-jr> although not before Qt was ported to it
1151 2012-01-26 20:46:59 <diki> gavinandresen:yet you assume that there will be a client for them
1152 2012-01-26 20:47:03 <luke-jr> Bitcoin-Qt *could* run on Symbian I suppose
1153 2012-01-26 20:47:14 <gavinandresen> diki: I imagine there will be wallet protection services that stores keys for you and sends you SMS messages to confirm transactions
1154 2012-01-26 20:47:16 <luke-jr> diki: the point of protocol changes is that there CAN be
1155 2012-01-26 20:47:32 <gavinandresen> diki: whether or not those services are free is another question....
1156 2012-01-26 20:47:45 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: btw, sorry about the "rumour" thing. I never expected my speculation to get turned into a theory. :/
1157 2012-01-26 20:48:25 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: ok-- sorry for writing the steal-chv-transactions-on-testnet bot. Lets call it even?
1158 2012-01-26 20:48:38 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: well, yours was intentional :P
1159 2012-01-26 20:48:45 toffoo has quit ()
1160 2012-01-26 20:48:52 <luke-jr> but no matter, I just used mainnet for testing
1161 2012-01-26 20:49:00 <luke-jr> ;)
1162 2012-01-26 20:49:06 <pusle> lol, Gavin our 3lite H4xx0rez ^^
1163 2012-01-26 20:49:35 <gmaxwell> whatever the bot caused goodness. It resulted in more testing of luke's code that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
1164 2012-01-26 20:50:26 <gavinandresen> speaking of testing... I'll be putting a bunch of 'fuzzed' bip 16 transactions on testnet soon, expect possible weirdness.
1165 2012-01-26 20:50:52 <roconnor> gavinandresen: wait, I haven't written my bip16 stealing bot yet!
1166 2012-01-26 20:50:59 <roconnor> gavinandresen: just joking
1167 2012-01-26 20:51:25 slush has joined
1168 2012-01-26 20:51:44 <gavinandresen> roconnor: you'd need a stealilng bot and 51% of testnet hashing power (not hard, admittedly)
1169 2012-01-26 20:51:59 <roconnor> gavinandresen: I still think you are wrong
1170 2012-01-26 20:52:13 <roconnor> maybe I can get like 1% of the BIP16 transactions
1171 2012-01-26 20:52:32 <gavinandresen> roconnor: ok, yes, you can get lucky in proportional to your hashing power
1172 2012-01-26 20:52:48 <makomk> Or presumably a network of sybil nodes?
1173 2012-01-26 20:52:52 <roconnor> not just my hashing power, but whoever I beat to my relay
1174 2012-01-26 20:53:08 <gavinandresen> sybil would be hard on testnet, because there are so few nodes my node is probably connected to them all already
1175 2012-01-26 20:53:28 <gavinandresen> ... so the original redeeming transaction would be what most people would get first / mine
1176 2012-01-26 20:53:35 <makomk> Hmmm, true.
1177 2012-01-26 20:53:36 * roconnor puts a direct link to gmaxwell
1178 2012-01-26 20:53:39 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1179 2012-01-26 20:53:50 <roconnor> gavinandresen: you send your transaction to everyone, not just 8 people?
1180 2012-01-26 20:54:00 <roconnor> s/people/nodes?
1181 2012-01-26 20:54:11 <gavinandresen> everybody I'm connected to, which is more than 8
1182 2012-01-26 20:54:23 <roconnor> how did you get connected to more than 8?
1183 2012-01-26 20:54:27 <gavinandresen> (I directly connect to the testnet faucet node, which is very long-running and well-connected)
1184 2012-01-26 20:54:56 <roconnor> how did testnet faucet get connected to more than 8?
1185 2012-01-26 20:55:01 <gavinandresen> It listens
1186 2012-01-26 20:55:08 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1187 2012-01-26 20:55:10 <slush> gavinandresen: my pool is now voting for p2sh (bip 16), as seen in coinbase: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/14771803/e88e3339e636ae1764c78043c295105141d56e01c4086cca92b6593660c6786d?show_adv=false
1188 2012-01-26 20:55:19 <gavinandresen> ... and hangs out in IRC, and has a firewall port open....
1189 2012-01-26 20:55:25 <roconnor> ya, but my node only seems to connect to 8 at most
1190 2012-01-26 20:55:29 <gavinandresen> slush: nice!
1191 2012-01-26 20:55:46 <roconnor> are you saying if I keep running I'll get 100 connections?
1192 2012-01-26 20:55:50 <slush> gavinandresen: and thank you for support, especially for doing p2sh patch against vinced's sources
1193 2012-01-26 20:56:12 <gavinandresen> roconnor: let me see how many connections the testnet faucet node has... one sec
1194 2012-01-26 20:56:19 BlueMatt has joined
1195 2012-01-26 20:56:46 <gavinandresen> testnet faucet node has 45 connections right now
1196 2012-01-26 20:56:56 <roconnor> why is it so many?
1197 2012-01-26 20:57:13 <gavinandresen> roconnor: maxconnections is... umm... 120? something like that
1198 2012-01-26 20:57:28 <roconnor> by why does my client boot upto 8 and stop?
1199 2012-01-26 20:57:40 <gavinandresen> roconnor: if you have only 8 and have been running a while, then something is blocking your incoming port 18333 (testnet bitcoin port)
1200 2012-01-26 20:57:48 <roconnor> oh
1201 2012-01-26 20:57:51 <roconnor> heh
1202 2012-01-26 20:57:55 <roconnor> indeed I have no port forwarding on
1203 2012-01-26 20:58:00 <helo> upnp?
1204 2012-01-26 20:58:01 <gavinandresen> that'll do it!
1205 2012-01-26 20:58:10 <roconnor> oh, I should have upnp
1206 2012-01-26 20:58:12 <roconnor> hmm
1207 2012-01-26 20:58:23 <roconnor> is there an easy way to check to see if upnp worked?
1208 2012-01-26 20:59:12 <gavinandresen> I keep telling people networking isn't my strong suit...... but I think the upnp code writes something to debug.log....
1209 2012-01-26 20:59:34 wirehead` has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1210 2012-01-26 20:59:57 <roconnor> oh wait, I may have disabled UPNP
1211 2012-01-26 21:00:13 <roconnor> to simplify compiling :D
1212 2012-01-26 21:00:48 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r2391c271fee0 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Cache and work with fds instead of socket objects, since it seems they sometimes change/lose their fd out from under us ;) http://tinyurl.com/7ppvgrh
1213 2012-01-26 21:00:49 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r38a2389092b0 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Bugfix: Skip X-Long-Polling header on actual longpoll replies http://tinyurl.com/727y67m
1214 2012-01-26 21:00:51 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rd485d377bd27 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Include Server header in HTTP replies http://tinyurl.com/7n77sue
1215 2012-01-26 21:00:52 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rcae9dae9cb4e eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Bugfix: logger needs a method http://tinyurl.com/72e3k8u
1216 2012-01-26 21:01:46 <roconnor> no wonder transmiting my transactions by hand wasn't very effective
1217 2012-01-26 21:03:15 userht has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1218 2012-01-26 21:04:38 <roconnor> okay, I've manually engaged portfowarding
1219 2012-01-26 21:04:41 <roconnor> I'll see what happens
1220 2012-01-26 21:04:48 userjj has joined
1221 2012-01-26 21:05:22 <UukGoblin> hmm, what does the CNOT gate do when the control qubit isn't |0> or |1> but, say, ( |0> + |1> ) / sqrt(2)?
1222 2012-01-26 21:05:45 <roconnor> UukGoblin: All gates are linear
1223 2012-01-26 21:06:18 <UukGoblin> *gulp*
1224 2012-01-26 21:06:29 <gavinandresen> frickin frackin -- versus - when parsing bitcoind arguments..... that needs fixing.....
1225 2012-01-26 21:06:42 <roconnor> so you get (CNOT(|0>) + CNOT(|1>))/sqrt(2)
1226 2012-01-26 21:07:58 <UukGoblin> roconnor, ah... right
1227 2012-01-26 21:08:38 <UukGoblin> but... the gate doesn't actually measure the control qubit to perform its operation, right?
1228 2012-01-26 21:08:48 <UukGoblin> hrm
1229 2012-01-26 21:08:53 <UukGoblin> guess that question might make no sense
1230 2012-01-26 21:11:53 <sipa> gavinandresen: are there -- arguments somewhere?
1231 2012-01-26 21:11:59 <roconnor> UukGoblin: not it doesn't
1232 2012-01-26 21:12:12 <roconnor> UukGoblin: I mean it doesn't measure the control qubit
1233 2012-01-26 21:12:20 <roconnor> (yes the question kinda makes sense)
1234 2012-01-26 21:12:25 iocor has joined
1235 2012-01-26 21:12:29 <gavinandresen> sipa: no, I just constantly switch between python and bitcoin and type -- when I mean -
1236 2012-01-26 21:12:48 <gavinandresen> sipa: ... so I think I'm going to write a patch so that bitcoin doesn't care whether you use - or --
1237 2012-01-26 21:13:32 <luke-jr> :p
1238 2012-01-26 21:14:03 <UukGoblin> roconnor, right... thanks
1239 2012-01-26 21:15:16 <roconnor> UukGoblin: I'm taking "measurement" to mean something like, "becomes entangled with its environment".
1240 2012-01-26 21:15:36 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: the control qbit is a qbit, not a bit. So it can have complex state too.
1241 2012-01-26 21:15:53 <UukGoblin> I mean this measurement in computational domain or what was it called
1242 2012-01-26 21:15:58 <UukGoblin> this intrusive measurement
1243 2012-01-26 21:16:12 <luke-jr> would anyone like to resume work on the quantum emulator I started to write a few weeks ago? :P
1244 2012-01-26 21:16:27 <luke-jr> it's MIPS-basedâ¦
1245 2012-01-26 21:16:32 <gavinandresen> sorry, too busy watching old episodes of Quantum Leap
1246 2012-01-26 21:16:34 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
1247 2012-01-26 21:16:40 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: the result is what you get from applying the matrix ... whever that comes out being.
1248 2012-01-26 21:16:46 tower has joined
1249 2012-01-26 21:16:53 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, well, exactly... that's why I asked what does the gate do in a different state than |0> or |1> of the control qubit... because all descriptions say stuff like, "It performs NOT if the control qubit is |1> and does nothing if it's |0>"
1250 2012-01-26 21:17:09 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: "Oh boy"
1251 2012-01-26 21:17:50 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, yeah, I guess the matrix is a better description
1252 2012-01-26 21:18:20 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: yea, understanding it as "gate" ... not very helpful. I think it's most useful to think of all quantum gates as "has these inputs, it applies this matrix" when you're wondering what it really does.
1253 2012-01-26 21:20:34 <luke-jr> wow, Eligius has 3400 longpoll clients it seems
1254 2012-01-26 21:20:49 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rc7aba01b51a0 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Demote socket.error during read/write events to debug-level http://tinyurl.com/793hsmu
1255 2012-01-26 21:20:54 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r6304a8ab8eb5 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Bugfix: Handle scheduled task errors http://tinyurl.com/893scg8
1256 2012-01-26 21:23:21 <upb> OT: http://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_save_the_internet/?tta
1257 2012-01-26 21:24:49 _W_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1263 2012-01-26 21:35:11 <roconnor> ooh 10 connections
1264 2012-01-26 21:35:55 <gmaxwell> roconnor: if you're attempting to be evil (for good testing reasons, of course), increase your max outbounds to some stupid number.
1265 2012-01-26 21:36:22 <roconnor> :)
1266 2012-01-26 21:36:32 <roconnor> I need to write my BIP16 stealer
1267 2012-01-26 21:36:41 <roconnor> or perferably have someone else write it
1268 2012-01-26 21:36:51 <roconnor> it's be good to see how effective or ineffective
1269 2012-01-26 21:37:20 <gmaxwell> roconnor: it would be way more effective if _I_ ran it, because I could split the chain every single time.
1270 2012-01-26 21:38:37 <roconnor> yes, but we know that :D
1271 2012-01-26 21:38:41 <gmaxwell> e.g. a one line hook that make it respond to getworks if and only iff its ready to steal. .. and some code where it won't accept a chain where it wasn't successful..
1272 2012-01-26 21:39:04 <gmaxwell> but true, we do know that will always work.
1273 2012-01-26 21:39:06 <roconnor> a 50% attack isn't all that interesting
1274 2012-01-26 21:39:21 agricocb has joined
1275 2012-01-26 21:39:37 <gmaxwell> well, it's not quite a 50% attack.. because even without anywhere near 50% a high hash power node could reverse a single block with some non-zero odds.
1276 2012-01-26 21:39:52 <roconnor> yep
1277 2012-01-26 21:40:23 <roconnor> though I'm interested in how much I could get with 0% hashing power
1278 2012-01-26 21:40:57 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r59d065b3c03b eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Handy server.TopLPers function to print out the IPs with the most active LP connections http://tinyurl.com/72a6cxf
1279 2012-01-26 21:41:02 hexx has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1280 2012-01-26 21:45:31 att has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1281 2012-01-26 21:49:22 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1282 2012-01-26 21:49:33 * Eliel wonders if this could be slipped in along with one of the P2SH implementations. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:DiThi/MTUT (someone would need to implement it, though. Also, this particular proposal looks to be in need of some fixing/more detail)
1283 2012-01-26 21:49:56 pingdrive has joined
1284 2012-01-26 21:51:12 <roconnor> does BIP16 state that OP_CODESEPARATOR cannot occur in serialized scripts?
1285 2012-01-26 21:51:49 <gavinandresen> BIP16 doesn't care about OP_CODESEPARATOR, since the serialized script is put into the scriptPubKey
1286 2012-01-26 21:51:58 <gavinandresen> ... and then executed just like any other script
1287 2012-01-26 21:52:31 <sipa> now that it's mentioned, i sure would have liked to see it deprecated in BIP16-subscripts
1288 2012-01-26 21:52:31 edcba_ is now known as edcba
1289 2012-01-26 21:52:42 <Eliel> does OP_CODESEPARATOR appear in any scripts in the main chain at the moment?
1290 2012-01-26 21:52:50 <luke-jr> roconnor: there is no serialized script âº
1291 2012-01-26 21:53:19 <roconnor> by serialized script i mean the thing that is encoded in the last pushdata of the sigScript
1292 2012-01-26 21:54:00 <gavinandresen> roconnor: right-- that's taken and replaces the HASH...EQUAL scriptPubKey, then validation is run again
1293 2012-01-26 21:54:07 <helo> could someone pay to a script that doesn't require any keys at all?
1294 2012-01-26 21:54:13 <sipa> helo: yes
1295 2012-01-26 21:54:20 <sipa> not standard though, and stupid
1296 2012-01-26 21:54:22 <sipa> but possible
1297 2012-01-26 21:54:27 <roconnor> gavinandresen: okay, so it can conatin OP_CODESEPARATOR
1298 2012-01-26 21:54:39 <gavinandresen> roconnor: yes. (but that would be a non-standard transaction)
1299 2012-01-26 21:54:43 <roconnor> okay
1300 2012-01-26 21:54:58 <roconnor> ... 'cause if you wanted to you could make it illegal :)
1301 2012-01-26 21:55:04 <roconnor> just sayin'
1302 2012-01-26 21:55:27 wirehead` has joined
1303 2012-01-26 21:55:29 <gavinandresen> I was tempted!
1304 2012-01-26 21:55:59 <gavinandresen> Seemed better to make BIP 16 just-do-one-thing....
1305 2012-01-26 21:56:30 <luke-jr> plus one-more (sigop counting)
1306 2012-01-26 21:56:38 <sipa> gavinandresen: one of your arguments pro-BIP16 is exactly that you can change some things that needs fixing (the sigop counting)
1307 2012-01-26 21:56:41 <gavinandresen> Actually, BIP 0001 says making multiple bips if you're trying to accomplish more than one thing is the right thing to do
1308 2012-01-26 21:57:07 <gavinandresen> the sigop counting is needed to prevent possible DoS, so I think those are inextricably linked
1309 2012-01-26 21:57:13 <luke-jr> sipa: but you can only change it once, and we're going to waste it on just sigops ;p
1310 2012-01-26 21:57:33 <roconnor> gavinandresen: that's great if you like to have lots of forking moments
1311 2012-01-26 21:57:34 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: not DoS, no.
1312 2012-01-26 21:57:36 <roconnor> ... just sayin'
1313 2012-01-26 21:58:14 <gavinandresen> roconnor: I hear what you're sayin
1314 2012-01-26 21:58:32 <sipa> gavinandresen: i don't mean to say you need to change things now, but ok, even if it'd require another BIP to make amendments to the scripting language, it would require another BIP16-like way to implement it
1315 2012-01-26 21:58:35 <roconnor> anyhow, it isn't that big of a deal
1316 2012-01-26 21:58:47 <gavinandresen> roconnor: ... I just don't want to spend another six months arguing about whether or not we should get rid of OP_CODESEPARATOR or re-enable OP_XOR or....
1317 2012-01-26 21:58:48 <roconnor> It's not like I can rip of this OP_CODESEPARATOR logic anytime soon
1318 2012-01-26 21:58:55 <sipa> gavinandresen: point taken
1319 2012-01-26 21:59:28 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: why not spend another 6 months? we can deploy BIP 17 to get the P2SH live now, and spend a year on eval-based upgradesâ¦
1320 2012-01-26 22:00:16 <gavinandresen> Why not deploy BIP 16 now and then take a while talking about upgrades?
1321 2012-01-26 22:00:50 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rc03ac4dfec40 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: JSONRPCServer: support for adding multiple listeners http://tinyurl.com/7q9h8hw
1322 2012-01-26 22:00:51 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rd2a24ec8326d eloipool/merklemaker.py: Warn about clearMerkleRoots getting low http://tinyurl.com/7knk6zm
1323 2012-01-26 22:00:53 <luke-jr> because BIP 16 is a one-shot chance to upgrade.
1324 2012-01-26 22:00:54 <gavinandresen> I've got a feeling once we've got n-of-3 transactions there will be pressure to enable n-of-20 as standard transactions, for example
1325 2012-01-26 22:00:56 <luke-jr> can't do it later.
1326 2012-01-26 22:02:21 <gavinandresen> Whew, those are some ugly transactions: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/000000001bdceba3936f2ea6a55311ac7b6030e327f1960e892620fcde6abf5f
1327 2012-01-26 22:03:15 pusle has quit ()
1328 2012-01-26 22:03:46 ThomasV_ has joined
1329 2012-01-26 22:03:56 <luke-jr> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/055707ce7fea7b9776fdc70413f65ceec413d46344424ab01acd5138767db137 doesn't look quite as ugly :p
1330 2012-01-26 22:04:09 <luke-jr> can even tell what it'll do
1331 2012-01-26 22:05:10 <kinlo> would it make sense to make 2 "subversions" of the bitcoin client, one version for pools/miners, that must upgrade always, and one version that accepts blocks that contain transactions they cannot verify, as long as they are let's say 120 confirmations old? Assuming that nobody would ever create a blockchain 120 blocks longer and keep that up to create a split
1332 2012-01-26 22:05:52 <sipa> kinlo: how would it know that a transaction is >120 blocks old, if it doesn't know about it?
1333 2012-01-26 22:06:09 <gavinandresen> Hmm... I should probably teach my fuzzer to avoid changing bytes in the hashes the valid transactions it randomly creates are mostly valid because they changed a bit or byte in a pubkey hash
1334 2012-01-26 22:06:39 <Eliel> gavinandresen: is there any way to extend the block headers with any extra data while retaining backwards compatibility?
1335 2012-01-26 22:06:42 <kinlo> sipa: just download the new blocks, and put them aside, as long as there are 120 blocks newer, you know that at least someone with a lot of hashing power has accepted the block
1336 2012-01-26 22:07:06 <gavinandresen> Eliel: there's room in the coinbase for stuff. Why?
1337 2012-01-26 22:07:28 <kinlo> I'm just brainstorming here, I immediatly see a problem that *every* payment made to the wallet managed by this client will require 120 confirmations I guess
1338 2012-01-26 22:07:52 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1339 2012-01-26 22:07:57 <Eliel> gavinandresen: well, now seems like a good chance to put in the merkle root hash of all unspent transactions as well as enforcement of it's correctness since we're adjusting the rules anyway.
1340 2012-01-26 22:08:13 <kinlo> but I assume we can use the fact that many miners approved the block to assume it is a valid block
1341 2012-01-26 22:08:23 <Eliel> gavinandresen: this one really isn't useful without enforcing it's correctness.
1342 2012-01-26 22:09:00 <helo> would it be interesting at all to have a block number comparison operators?
1343 2012-01-26 22:09:02 <gavinandresen> Eliel: you've got a patch ready to go?
1344 2012-01-26 22:09:11 <kinlo> sipa: does it make any sense?
1345 2012-01-26 22:09:15 <Eliel> unfortunately, no.
1346 2012-01-26 22:09:22 <gavinandresen> Ah, then you don't mean "now" ....
1347 2012-01-26 22:09:36 <roconnor> Eliel: according to gavin each BIP is supposed to be one thing only.
1348 2012-01-26 22:09:37 <roconnor> :P
1349 2012-01-26 22:09:50 <Eliel> roconnor: it could well be another BIP :P
1350 2012-01-26 22:09:51 <gavinandresen> Not according to me, according to BIP 0001
1351 2012-01-26 22:10:03 <roconnor> right
1352 2012-01-26 22:10:06 <roconnor> sorry
1353 2012-01-26 22:10:11 pingdrive has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1354 2012-01-26 22:10:37 <gavinandresen> "It is highly recommended that a single BIP contain a single key proposal or new idea."
1355 2012-01-26 22:10:45 has quit (Clown|!Clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1356 2012-01-26 22:11:17 imsaguy has joined
1357 2012-01-26 22:11:56 <sipa> but we are not talking about a BIP, we are talking about doing a backward-compatible protocol change; nothing says that change should be limited to one BIP
1358 2012-01-26 22:12:10 <Eliel> gmaxwell: have you given any thought to how to implement a merkle tree of all unspent transactions? It just occurred to me that unless you use some clever tricks, it'll potentially be quite resource heavy to verify and build.
1359 2012-01-26 22:12:48 <gavinandresen> sipa: in my view, BIP 16 is about supporting BIP 13, and that's all.
1360 2012-01-26 22:13:27 <sipa> gavinandresen: sure, but there could be a BIP 18 that defined a change to the scripting language, and was also implemented at the same time
1361 2012-01-26 22:13:41 <gavinandresen> Could be...
1362 2012-01-26 22:14:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: btw, that's just hypothetically, i hope that now we can just rollout BIP16, if only to show that such upgrades are possible
1363 2012-01-26 22:14:19 <gmaxwell> Eliel: expensive to verify and build, it can be log(n) to update once you can.
1364 2012-01-26 22:16:18 <Eliel> gmaxwell: it'd require SHA256 operations on the order of transactions included in it to verify... Miners do have the equipment that could do it but...
1365 2012-01-26 22:17:15 <sipa> SHA256 operations are negligable compared to ECDSA signature verification
1366 2012-01-26 22:18:10 <roconnor> Eliel: that proposal you linked to is insufficently detailed
1367 2012-01-26 22:18:26 <Eliel> roconnor: I agree
1368 2012-01-26 22:18:50 * Eliel is pondering whether it's practical.
1369 2012-01-26 22:19:07 <BlueMatt> sipa: do I read your comments on signmessage gui correct, luke-jr changed the gui from a tab to something else?
1370 2012-01-26 22:19:14 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes
1371 2012-01-26 22:19:19 <BlueMatt> to what?
1372 2012-01-26 22:19:19 <sipa> it's a popup now
1373 2012-01-26 22:19:22 <BlueMatt> nice
1374 2012-01-26 22:20:03 <Eliel> gmaxwell: oh wait, you could use the update code to verify it too if you have an already verified prior hash tree.
1375 2012-01-26 22:20:06 <luke-jr> kinlo: miners are probably the #1 non-upgrader
1376 2012-01-26 22:20:27 <luke-jr> Eliel: the merged-mining tree can work fine for the unspent-txn-tree btw
1377 2012-01-26 22:20:35 <kinlo> luke-jr: I'd say that end-users using their wallet to do payments are the #1 non-upgraders
1378 2012-01-26 22:20:48 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rbadf2bb5621f eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: JSONRPCServer: make server_address optional for constructor http://tinyurl.com/7hlrban
1379 2012-01-26 22:20:49 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rcc4217786f26 eloipool/ (config.py.example eloipool.py): Config: Support for binding multiple JSON-RPC listeners http://tinyurl.com/7vqmdqn
1380 2012-01-26 22:20:51 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r3bcd6f6f3cb0 eloipool/ (jsonrpcserver.py util.py): Bugfix: Start the server anyway, even if we failed to bind listener(s) http://tinyurl.com/6tez7jn
1381 2012-01-26 22:20:56 <luke-jr> kinlo: OK, #1 with a good reason then
1382 2012-01-26 22:21:09 <kinlo> luke-jr: Those with not enough power to solo-mine join a pool, those that do are not numerous
1383 2012-01-26 22:21:10 <Eliel> luke-jr: it can, but it needs to be enforced in bitcoin protocol as well for it to be useful.
1384 2012-01-26 22:21:19 <luke-jr> Eliel: I don't see how it can be enforced reasonably
1385 2012-01-26 22:21:31 <kinlo> luke-jr: in the end, you can say that those that are mining are very actively busy with bitcoin
1386 2012-01-26 22:21:32 <luke-jr> kinlo: how do you solo mine?
1387 2012-01-26 22:21:49 baz has joined
1388 2012-01-26 22:21:52 <kinlo> luke-jr: I don't understand the question
1389 2012-01-26 22:22:20 <luke-jr> kinlo: bitcoind isn't capable of solo mining at this difficulty
1390 2012-01-26 22:23:13 <kinlo> luke-jr: exactly, so those who are solo mining have their own mini-pool setup with many computers to get to a hashrate that will actually yield a block instead of wasting power
1391 2012-01-26 22:23:54 <kinlo> luke-jr: so those people are very actively busy with bitcoin, those are the people which will know about a new bitcoin version with incompatible changes
1392 2012-01-26 22:24:11 <luke-jr> kinlo: know about, yes. be able to upgrade, not necessarily
1393 2012-01-26 22:24:28 <kinlo> luke-jr: but joe average that only wants to buy/sell a bit will not be the first one to know that they should upgrade
1394 2012-01-26 22:24:49 <kinlo> change buy/sell into "use" in that sentence...
1395 2012-01-26 22:25:09 <helo> wouldn't it not make a difference if mining solo as a self-pool or as a bunch of individual miners?
1396 2012-01-26 22:25:26 <kinlo> luke-jr: well, my point is that the number of users that maintain a mining setup is much lower then the number of users using bitcoin that don't
1397 2012-01-26 22:26:28 <kinlo> and those who do *know* when to upgrade
1398 2012-01-26 22:27:11 iocor has joined
1399 2012-01-26 22:29:02 <luke-jr> kinlo: most pools run 0.3.x still
1400 2012-01-26 22:29:07 <kinlo> I know
1401 2012-01-26 22:29:18 Cory has joined
1402 2012-01-26 22:29:21 <kinlo> I want to upgrade too, but haven't found the time to get it done
1403 2012-01-26 22:30:07 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1404 2012-01-26 22:30:50 <CIA-2> bitcoin: p2k * rc32b9479d27b ecoinpool/apps/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Globally Ingore Password http://tinyurl.com/7tcmn9e
1405 2012-01-26 22:31:13 tandy80 has joined
1406 2012-01-26 22:31:17 a_meteorite has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1407 2012-01-26 22:32:27 <sipa> anyone care to send me a large addr.dat ?
1408 2012-01-26 22:32:28 a_meteorite has joined
1409 2012-01-26 22:32:41 <sipa> i'm testing automatic upgrade to addrman
1410 2012-01-26 22:33:10 <gmaxwell> man, you should have told me this a week or two ago. I deleted the really big one I had.
1411 2012-01-26 22:33:24 <josephcp> how big is large
1412 2012-01-26 22:33:31 <marf_away> http://xkcd.com/221/
1413 2012-01-26 22:33:33 <gavinandresen> sipa: I could send you the Faucet's addr.dat, it is 39M
1414 2012-01-26 22:33:39 <sipa> more than enough
1415 2012-01-26 22:33:47 <gavinandresen> one sec...
1416 2012-01-26 22:33:48 <marf_away> sorry wrong channel
1417 2012-01-26 22:33:50 att has joined
1418 2012-01-26 22:33:52 <kinlo> biggest one I have is 67meg
1419 2012-01-26 22:34:10 <sipa> one suffices :)
1420 2012-01-26 22:35:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: http://www.skypaint.com/bitcoin/addr.dat.forsipa should work
1421 2012-01-26 22:36:03 <nanotube> mine's 21M... guess gavin wins :)
1422 2012-01-26 22:36:15 <nanotube> oh wait, no, kinlo wins. heh
1423 2012-01-26 22:36:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: thanks! got it
1424 2012-01-26 22:37:05 <kinlo> I never deleted the file, that particular client is running for months now
1425 2012-01-26 22:37:55 <BlueMatt> marf_away: as a response to that, some joke rfc needs to actually define an IEEE-vetted random number
1426 2012-01-26 22:40:04 att has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1427 2012-01-26 22:40:29 <luke-jr> hey, Costia might have a good idea⦠https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61184.msg715262#msg715262
1428 2012-01-26 22:40:46 <luke-jr> fairly secure even without majority network upgrade
1429 2012-01-26 22:41:11 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * raa8806f1aee2 eloipool/jsonrpcserver.py: Send submitold in LP responses http://tinyurl.com/7bpdzkm
1430 2012-01-26 22:41:27 <luke-jr> 61 character addresses, is it too bad?
1431 2012-01-26 22:41:48 tandy80 has quit ()
1432 2012-01-26 22:42:00 <luke-jr> unlike serialize-script-to-address, it can be done in a not-infinite-size not-easy-to-modify-one-byte way
1433 2012-01-26 22:44:26 ovidiusoft2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1434 2012-01-26 22:44:43 _Fireball has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/)
1435 2012-01-26 22:47:32 has joined
1436 2012-01-26 22:49:48 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: makes the outputs much bigger. Uncool in that respect.
1437 2012-01-26 22:50:18 graingert has joined
1438 2012-01-26 22:51:24 JFK911_ has joined
1439 2012-01-26 22:51:40 JFK911 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1441 2012-01-26 22:56:19 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: true, but it could be combined with BIP 17 too
1442 2012-01-26 22:56:28 <luke-jr> ie, long form could be temporary
1443 2012-01-26 22:59:38 * sipa fails to understand Dbc::del()
1444 2012-01-26 22:59:49 <sipa> EXCEPTION: 11DbException
1445 2012-01-26 22:59:50 <sipa> Dbc::del: Invalid argument
1446 2012-01-26 23:04:48 eoss has joined
1447 2012-01-26 23:04:48 eoss has quit (Changing host)
1448 2012-01-26 23:04:48 eoss has joined
1449 2012-01-26 23:07:34 <luke-jr> wumpus: when you get a chance, could you add the MIT/X11 license terms to the Bitcoin-Qt code? <.<
1450 2012-01-26 23:13:28 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1451 2012-01-26 23:14:28 paraipan has joined
1452 2012-01-26 23:15:14 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1453 2012-01-26 23:17:33 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1454 2012-01-26 23:19:15 wirehead` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1455 2012-01-26 23:20:48 <CIA-2> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r1988bb51d8b6 eloipool/eloipool.py: Bugfix: actually expire work after 120 seconds (rejected as 'stale-work') http://tinyurl.com/7wt4z6k
1456 2012-01-26 23:31:50 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1457 2012-01-26 23:32:58 <sipa> after converting gavin's addr.dat to addrman, it took me 118s to get 8 outgoing connections (-noirc -nodnsseed)
1458 2012-01-26 23:33:43 <sipa> that's not very good, but not terrible either, knowing that selection of addresses to overwrite in the new table is not (yet) biased in favor of recently seen nodes
1459 2012-01-26 23:34:18 splatster has joined
1460 2012-01-26 23:34:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: how long would it have taken with just the addr.dat (no dns seed, no irc?)
1461 2012-01-26 23:36:07 <sipa> let's see
1462 2012-01-26 23:36:38 <sipa> the old selection code favored recently seen addresses much more strongly, so i expect it to be faster
1463 2012-01-26 23:37:18 <sipa> 29s :)
1464 2012-01-26 23:37:32 <gmaxwell> Okay, 4x faster.
1465 2012-01-26 23:38:00 <gmaxwell> What happens if you sort the addr.dat oldest to newest so that the oldest addresses had the most chance of getting thrown out?
1466 2012-01-26 23:38:18 <splatster> I have a stupid (maybe) idea for a website I could make/run.
1467 2012-01-26 23:38:32 <sipa> 15s mow
1468 2012-01-26 23:38:43 <splatster> I am thinking of doing a simple site that will donate to the community. My Idea is to make a bitcoin drain/donator.
1469 2012-01-26 23:38:45 <gmaxwell> What changed?
1470 2012-01-26 23:38:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: it's still random
1471 2012-01-26 23:39:03 torsthaldo has joined
1472 2012-01-26 23:39:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: that it spends time exploring candidate addresses isn't a bad thing â except for the first connection or two.
1473 2012-01-26 23:39:37 <splatster> People who want their funds donated to those in need would send bitcoins to the address on the site and it will be donated appropriately to major bitcoin sites and the like.
1474 2012-01-26 23:39:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: once addrman is decently working, it will favor already tried addresses when there are almost no connections
1475 2012-01-26 23:40:09 <sipa> but there are no "already tried" addresses after converting an old addr.dat
1476 2012-01-26 23:40:23 <splatster> So if, for example, bitcoin.org needs some money for a site redesign, an admin would do a withdrawal or submit a request for bitcoins.
1477 2012-01-26 23:40:29 <splatster> Thoughts?
1478 2012-01-26 23:40:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: could take a couple of the most recently connected and drop them into the already tried table to hot start it?
1479 2012-01-26 23:40:43 Karmaon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1480 2012-01-26 23:40:44 <CIA-2> bitcoin: jedi95 * ra658ef2e341b Phoenix-Miner/ (Miner.py WorkQueue.py): Several fixes for X-Work-Identifier. Bump version to 1.7.5 http://tinyurl.com/7ne7y9n
1481 2012-01-26 23:40:51 b4epoche_ has joined
1482 2012-01-26 23:41:12 <gmaxwell> splatster: A lot of people in the bitcoin community will say to that "I'll just pick who I donate to myself, thank you very much"
1483 2012-01-26 23:41:35 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1484 2012-01-26 23:41:35 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
1485 2012-01-26 23:41:42 <splatster> But wouldn't it be great if there was a reserve for those sites/people in trouble?
1486 2012-01-26 23:42:30 <gavinandresen> splatster: do you have experience running charitable organizations?
1487 2012-01-26 23:42:35 <splatster> And the community/higher ups would choose what proportions of money go where
1488 2012-01-26 23:42:59 <splatster> I do work for a 501c3 in my town
1489 2012-01-26 23:43:05 <splatster> well two actually
1490 2012-01-26 23:43:16 <gavinandresen> "work for" or "I'm the director"
1491 2012-01-26 23:43:19 <splatster> I understand I wouldn't dictate the funds
1492 2012-01-26 23:43:27 GMP has joined
1493 2012-01-26 23:43:40 Karmaon has joined
1494 2012-01-26 23:43:53 <splatster> on the board of one, work/volunteer for another
1495 2012-01-26 23:44:59 <gavinandresen> splatster: ok, you have more experience than me, then. If you think it'll work, go for it-- write up a mission statement, create a 501c3, get a board of directors.....
1496 2012-01-26 23:45:24 <splatster> I'm not thinking of doing that big of a project
1497 2012-01-26 23:45:49 <gavinandresen> Then I think you'll have trouble fending off the idea that maybe you're just a scammer who will get donations and then disappear.
1498 2012-01-26 23:46:14 <splatster> I dont want to be the person controlling the funds
1499 2012-01-26 23:46:14 theymos has joined
1500 2012-01-26 23:46:32 <gavinandresen> OK. But somebody has to hold the keys to the wallet
1501 2012-01-26 23:46:42 <splatster> Why not you?
1502 2012-01-26 23:46:46 <gavinandresen> ... and decide who is worthy, and....
1503 2012-01-26 23:46:53 <copumpkin> it could be one of those newfangled addresses that requires multiple signatures ;)
1504 2012-01-26 23:47:00 <gavinandresen> I'm trying to wear fewer Bitcoin hats, not more!
1505 2012-01-26 23:47:17 <gavinandresen> copumpkin: ok, somebodies have to hold the keys....
1506 2012-01-26 23:47:25 <copumpkin> yeah
1507 2012-01-26 23:48:19 <splatster> Money would just be on reserve for the rainy days of bitcoin site
1508 2012-01-26 23:48:22 <gavinandresen> Wasn't somebody doing a kickstarter-like site using bitcoins? That's very similar
1509 2012-01-26 23:48:24 <splatster> sites*
1510 2012-01-26 23:49:01 da2ce7 has quit (2!~da2ce7@gateway/tor-sasl/da2ce7|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1511 2012-01-26 23:49:05 <splatster> Funds could be put towards bounties and the like
1512 2012-01-26 23:49:22 <splatster> less kickstarter and more help the trusted sites
1513 2012-01-26 23:50:34 <gavinandresen> (found the bitcoin kickstarter: http://bitcoinstarter.com/ )
1514 2012-01-26 23:50:55 <splatster> It's not finished yet tho
1515 2012-01-26 23:51:23 <gavinandresen> Nope... kickstarter is roughly the same as bounties, yes?
1516 2012-01-26 23:51:57 e0s_ has joined
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1518 2012-01-26 23:52:53 <splatster> E.G. bitcointalk.org has a bounty for new forum software
1519 2012-01-26 23:53:05 <splatster> funds could go to things like that
1520 2012-01-26 23:53:59 <gavinandresen> How is the bounty for new forum software on bitcoin.org going, by the way? Anybody donating?
1521 2012-01-26 23:54:25 da2ce7 has joined
1522 2012-01-26 23:54:32 <gavinandresen> ^bitcoin.org^bitcointalk
1523 2012-01-26 23:54:55 <theymos> Yeah, the forum has about 1200 BTC now. I think that's pretty good.
1524 2012-01-26 23:55:31 <theymos> Surprisingly few good bids, though. I think I might have to break the job down into smaller jobs, each with bounties.
1525 2012-01-26 23:56:51 <gavinandresen> theymos: that is pretty good... but not enough to hire a professional web development firm to do what you need
1526 2012-01-26 23:57:25 <gavinandresen> (which is my problem with bounties, seems like they're never enough to support real professional development)