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4 2012-02-01 00:03:20 <splatster> etotheipi_: Anything you need debugged? (I still have it on my VM)
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6 2012-02-01 00:03:57 <etotheipi_> splatster, Ubuntu?
7 2012-02-01 00:04:05 <splatster> Yep
8 2012-02-01 00:04:16 <etotheipi_> heh, actually I have something that desperately needs debugging
9 2012-02-01 00:04:19 <etotheipi_> but only in Windows
10 2012-02-01 00:04:38 <etotheipi_> I could toss a BTC your way if you make any progress on it
11 2012-02-01 00:04:44 <etotheipi_> but I know OSX is your concern
12 2012-02-01 00:05:13 <splatster> Well I don't have a Windows VM
13 2012-02-01 00:05:30 <splatster> So I don't know if I will be of much help there
14 2012-02-01 00:09:03 <etotheipi_> for my life, I cannot get the program to close properly in Windows
15 2012-02-01 00:09:16 <etotheipi_> when run via python, it's no problem because it loads a console window, and then you can manually close the consol
16 2012-02-01 00:09:33 <etotheipi_> but if I build a binary, it leaves the python env open in the background after closing the GUI
17 2012-02-01 00:09:51 <splatster> IDK if this works on windows but what about exit?
18 2012-02-01 00:09:52 <etotheipi_> this is the only thing preventing me from releasing alpha
19 2012-02-01 00:09:59 <etotheipi_> I have tried a dozen things
20 2012-02-01 00:10:03 theorb has joined
21 2012-02-01 00:10:06 <etotheipi_> sys.exit(), which should hard-kill the process, doesn't
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24 2012-02-01 00:10:27 <etotheipi_> something to do with qt4reactor (which is a combined qt4 and twisted event-loop)
25 2012-02-01 00:11:37 <sipa> etotheipi_: works! https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/4ef6353c35eae69f5066803a443a459fda395fae
26 2012-02-01 00:12:50 <etotheipi_> sipa, great!
27 2012-02-01 00:13:08 osmosis has joined
28 2012-02-01 00:13:21 <etotheipi_> how would such a thing be implemented in the main client?
29 2012-02-01 00:13:29 poiuh has joined
30 2012-02-01 00:13:43 <sipa> etotheipi_: i see it as a checkbox :)
31 2012-02-01 00:13:45 <etotheipi_> is the Satoshi client going to ever support multiple wallets?
32 2012-02-01 00:13:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: wow
33 2012-02-01 00:14:00 <BlueMatt> nice!
34 2012-02-01 00:14:05 <sipa> etotheipi_: hopefully, soon
35 2012-02-01 00:14:30 <Moron__> yay i cant wait for multiple wallets :)
36 2012-02-01 00:14:55 <sipa> etotheipi_: the current way of implementing it is by storing (address_of_previous_det_key, chaincode) in the wallet, and if present, use that when generating new keys instead of being random
37 2012-02-01 00:14:57 <splatster> Yay, I can't wait until I get Armory to compile on OS X!!
38 2012-02-01 00:15:17 <etotheipi_> gotcha
39 2012-02-01 00:15:25 poiuh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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41 2012-02-01 00:15:36 <etotheipi_> splatster, I still don't have a clue how to proceed with that
42 2012-02-01 00:15:38 <etotheipi_> :(
43 2012-02-01 00:15:41 splatster has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
44 2012-02-01 00:15:54 <sipa> etotheipi_: that way, it flawlessly integrates with wallet encryption, as the previous det key is itself not available then
45 2012-02-01 00:16:31 <etotheipi_> heh, it got kind of complicated doing this in armory
46 2012-02-01 00:16:49 <etotheipi_> regular wallet: have private key, extend private key.... watching-only wallet: have public key, extend public key
47 2012-02-01 00:16:59 da2ce7 has joined
48 2012-02-01 00:17:00 <etotheipi_> but what if i have a full wallet that's encrypted...
49 2012-02-01 00:17:04 <sipa> watching-only is not implemented here
50 2012-02-01 00:17:11 <sipa> that simplifies things :)
51 2012-02-01 00:17:21 theymos_ has joined
52 2012-02-01 00:17:26 <sipa> enabling the checkbox would generate a -1 key and a chaincode, disabling it would remove the reference to it in the client
53 2012-02-01 00:17:33 <etotheipi_> gotcha
54 2012-02-01 00:18:04 <sipa> things still pass though the key pool, so enabling/disabling it requires generating 100 new keys to see the effect
55 2012-02-01 00:18:16 <sipa> but if you enable determinstic wallet, and then make a backup, it is forever safe
56 2012-02-01 00:18:24 <etotheipi_> sounds good
57 2012-02-01 00:19:02 eoss has joined
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60 2012-02-01 00:19:13 <etotheipi_> especially because then the user can choose to use random keys if they don't like the deterministic key idea
61 2012-02-01 00:20:48 * sipa -> bed
62 2012-02-01 00:21:21 <etotheipi_> sipa, didn';t you say that like 2 hours ago? :)
63 2012-02-01 00:21:24 <luke-jr> sipa: disabling it won't destroy the key, would it?
64 2012-02-01 00:21:48 <sipa> luke-jr: disable + re-enable will cause diverging from a copy of the wallet that just left it on
65 2012-02-01 00:22:11 <sipa> etotheipi_: those were 2 hours well spent :)
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69 2012-02-01 00:29:01 <luke-jr> sipa: but is the information to resume *gone*?
70 2012-02-01 00:29:18 <sipa> right now, yes
71 2012-02-01 00:30:30 <sipa> disabling it from the gui should probably show a warning "This will make your wallet indeterminstic again. Even after re-enabling this option, it will still diverge from copies of this wallet that were left determinstic all along."
72 2012-02-01 00:31:09 <BlueMatt> sipa: while you are at it, want to rewrite how wallets are stored? ;)
73 2012-02-01 00:31:16 <BlueMatt> s/bdb/text file/
74 2012-02-01 00:31:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: i've been thinking about that yes, but i'm not sure
75 2012-02-01 00:31:42 <sipa> we'll talk tomorrow :)
76 2012-02-01 00:31:46 <poiuh> ok
77 2012-02-01 00:31:54 <BlueMatt> heh, ok
78 2012-02-01 00:31:58 copumpkin has joined
79 2012-02-01 00:32:03 <luke-jr> sipa: sorry for keepign you up ;)
80 2012-02-01 00:32:07 <sipa> np
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90 2012-02-01 00:45:12 <etotheipi_> if you use text files, you probably need some extra functionality surrounding it to avoid corruption (i.e. replace ACID)
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92 2012-02-01 00:45:41 <graingert> you'd need an internal db
93 2012-02-01 00:45:59 <graingert> read in the whole text file to internal representation
94 2012-02-01 00:46:04 <graingert> lock the text file
95 2012-02-01 00:46:11 <graingert> then operate on the db
96 2012-02-01 00:46:16 <graingert> and write back to text file
97 2012-02-01 00:46:20 <graingert> unlock it
98 2012-02-01 00:46:23 <etotheipi_> graingert, I don't think that's the problem (...?)
99 2012-02-01 00:46:25 <graingert> (swap read and lock)
100 2012-02-01 00:46:41 <etotheipi_> it's that if power goes out at the wrong microsecond, you could end up with a partial write
101 2012-02-01 00:46:52 <etotheipi_> or corrupted file
102 2012-02-01 00:46:57 <graingert> the db is still present
103 2012-02-01 00:47:42 <graingert> write back to a new file, then diff, if they are the same delete the new file
104 2012-02-01 00:47:56 <graingert> if not then archive the old file
105 2012-02-01 00:48:31 <etotheipi_> okay, we're talking about something very similar
106 2012-02-01 00:48:34 MobiusL has joined
107 2012-02-01 00:48:42 <BlueMatt> yea, ofc you need safety checks
108 2012-02-01 00:48:51 <BlueMatt> but that is mostly just using fsync()
109 2012-02-01 00:49:11 <graingert> yes, but the trick is to read into a bdb db
110 2012-02-01 00:49:11 <graingert> or sqlight or couch/whatev
111 2012-02-01 00:49:31 <etotheipi_> well I spent a lot of time implementing atomic ops in Armory
112 2012-02-01 00:49:46 <graingert> well that was silly
113 2012-02-01 00:49:47 <BlueMatt> why would you want to read into a db?
114 2012-02-01 00:49:58 <graingert> because that way you get real atomic ops
115 2012-02-01 00:50:04 <graingert> from the db engine
116 2012-02-01 00:50:18 <graingert> and it envolves minamal bitcoin changes
117 2012-02-01 00:50:20 <etotheipi_> it's just regular and backup... you input a list of updates (add/modify commands), and it writes them to the main file first, then the backup, compares and closes
118 2012-02-01 00:50:21 <BlueMatt> its really easy to do an atomic write
119 2012-02-01 00:50:25 <BlueMatt> and we dont need to ever delete
120 2012-02-01 00:50:37 <BlueMatt> (except overwrite for srm)
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122 2012-02-01 00:52:53 <poiuh> koolbrool
123 2012-02-01 00:55:27 Clipse has joined
124 2012-02-01 00:55:57 [Tycho] has joined
125 2012-02-01 00:56:41 <[Tycho]> How impossible is enabling OP_CAT in scripts ?
126 2012-02-01 00:57:09 <BlueMatt> you mean tomorrow or in 6 months?
127 2012-02-01 00:57:44 Nesetalis has joined
128 2012-02-01 00:58:06 <[Tycho]> In one month.
129 2012-02-01 00:58:07 <BlueMatt> (in essence, it would be as hard as enabling bip16)
130 2012-02-01 00:58:23 <BlueMatt> actually, harder
131 2012-02-01 00:58:24 <[Tycho]> Then it's better than BIP16 :)
132 2012-02-01 00:58:43 <BlueMatt> iirc current nodes will reject OP_CAT, not just mark it nonstd
133 2012-02-01 00:58:52 <BlueMatt> so you would probably need like at least 6 months
134 2012-02-01 00:58:58 <graingert> Optional Protocol of the Convention against Torture ?
135 2012-02-01 00:59:02 <ferroh> Tycho, great, submit that as BIP10234
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137 2012-02-01 00:59:23 ferroh is now known as Ferroh
138 2012-02-01 00:59:37 <BlueMatt> graingert: wtf???
139 2012-02-01 00:59:44 <graingert> OPCAT
140 2012-02-01 00:59:50 <BlueMatt> ...
141 2012-02-01 00:59:52 rdponticelli_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
142 2012-02-01 00:59:54 <graingert> I googlied
143 2012-02-01 01:00:09 <Ferroh> OP CAT: http://tfsource.com/public_img/reduced-image_1361_106.jpg
144 2012-02-01 01:00:20 <Ferroh> (according to google)
145 2012-02-01 01:00:28 <BlueMatt> wtf???
146 2012-02-01 01:00:39 <BlueMatt> maybe ,,(bc,wiki Script)
147 2012-02-01 01:00:39 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script | Bitcoin uses a scripting system for transactions. Forth-like, Script ...
148 2012-02-01 01:00:42 <Ferroh> In google's defense, that cat does look OP.
149 2012-02-01 01:00:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: more like one year, minimum.
150 2012-02-01 01:00:54 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: why do you need OP_CAT?
151 2012-02-01 01:01:00 <gmaxwell> It's a mandatory chain fork.
152 2012-02-01 01:01:08 <BlueMatt> yea
153 2012-02-01 01:01:11 <gmaxwell> Not simply non-standard.
154 2012-02-01 01:01:14 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: to do interesting things without P2SH
155 2012-02-01 01:01:16 <Ferroh> luke-jr: Because more BIPs are better than less BIPs.
156 2012-02-01 01:01:20 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: like what? :P
157 2012-02-01 01:01:33 <luke-jr> if we're going to fork the chain, we should just make P2SH mandatory for everything
158 2012-02-01 01:01:38 <gmaxwell> We would need to make it possible e.g. as of block 210000 .. then get ~100% of clients updated prior to that block number.
159 2012-02-01 01:01:47 <gmaxwell> Everyone not updated falls off the network.
160 2012-02-01 01:01:51 <BlueMatt> yep
161 2012-02-01 01:01:53 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: like 2-factor auth or escrow services without long output scripts or publishing pubkeys.
162 2012-02-01 01:02:19 <[Tycho]> I think we need to test and enable all disabled ops.
163 2012-02-01 01:02:24 <luke-jr> oh, hash the pubkey+pubkey combo?
164 2012-02-01 01:02:30 <[Tycho]> And make math ops enabled too.
165 2012-02-01 01:02:39 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: yes.
166 2012-02-01 01:02:45 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: that's Hardfork aka Bitcoin 2.0
167 2012-02-01 01:02:55 redemerald has joined
168 2012-02-01 01:03:10 <theymos> [Tycho]: Easiest way to do that would be something like BIP 16 or OP_EVAL that processes the serialized script differently.
169 2012-02-01 01:03:17 <[Tycho]> I don't like block 210000 :)
170 2012-02-01 01:03:39 splatster has joined
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173 2012-02-01 01:03:43 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: get coding, because as it stands that mathops are scarry crap that may be security holes they need agressive tests written.
174 2012-02-01 01:03:46 <[Tycho]> theymos: I know, but it's not as much fun.
175 2012-02-01 01:03:51 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: hey, something good should happen then!
176 2012-02-01 01:04:39 <[Tycho]> Also we may use one of unused OPs to do some magic.
177 2012-02-01 01:04:50 <[Tycho]> *NOPs
178 2012-02-01 01:04:55 <luke-jr> I can think of a way to enable OP_CAT without a hardfork, but it's uglier than BIP 16 :/
179 2012-02-01 01:05:20 <luke-jr> OP_0 OP_CAT_NEW OP_IF â¦handle new clients⦠OP_ENDIF
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181 2012-02-01 01:05:23 <BlueMatt> OP_NOP1 == OP_CAT
182 2012-02-01 01:05:33 <BlueMatt> ^ easier
183 2012-02-01 01:05:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that would hardfork
184 2012-02-01 01:05:50 copumpkin has joined
185 2012-02-01 01:05:51 <[Tycho]> Disabled splice OPs stop us from making lots of funny scripts.
186 2012-02-01 01:05:59 <BlueMatt> not if you make the script work with OP_NOP1 and OP_CAT
187 2012-02-01 01:06:02 <[Tycho]> As well as disabled math ops.
188 2012-02-01 01:06:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you can't guarantee what the scripts do
189 2012-02-01 01:06:20 <luke-jr> without forcing IsStandard on protocol rules
190 2012-02-01 01:06:38 <BlueMatt> yea you can, if (evalwithoutopcat() && evalwithopcat())
191 2012-02-01 01:06:52 <gmaxwell> I just happened to make a list of features I want in bitcoin, and perhaps amusingly no script improvements made my list: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/features
192 2012-02-01 01:06:57 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: may be like OP_NEWSCRIPTS instead of OP_CAT_NEW :)
193 2012-02-01 01:06:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: good point
194 2012-02-01 01:07:08 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: OP_HASKELL_EVAL
195 2012-02-01 01:07:14 sacarlson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
196 2012-02-01 01:07:31 <[Tycho]> No one\ needs haskell.
197 2012-02-01 01:07:33 <BlueMatt> OP_EVAL serializedscript
198 2012-02-01 01:07:36 <BlueMatt> :)
199 2012-02-01 01:07:37 <graingert> what about dart
200 2012-02-01 01:07:42 <BlueMatt> then you can enable whatever the hell you want
201 2012-02-01 01:07:51 <[Tycho]> Serialized scripts are ugly.
202 2012-02-01 01:07:59 <BlueMatt> yea, but it works
203 2012-02-01 01:08:22 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: so does BIP 17 ;)
204 2012-02-01 01:08:28 <BlueMatt> ...
205 2012-02-01 01:08:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: scrypt wallet encryption - go do it, it shouldnt take more than like 20 minutes
206 2012-02-01 01:09:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: 1/4 of the stuff there isn't hard. Also not very important either.
207 2012-02-01 01:09:21 <luke-jr> is there something wrong with AES? O.o
208 2012-02-01 01:09:39 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it would still be AES. Scrypt is the KDF not the actual encryption
209 2012-02-01 01:09:40 <splatster> I have given up trying to understand the differences to between BIP12/16/17/â
210 2012-02-01 01:09:53 <gmaxwell> splatster: good. To most people there is no difference.
211 2012-02-01 01:10:25 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you forgot a nice api to the core bitcoin block/tx store/validation/etc that all other parts use
212 2012-02-01 01:10:26 <splatster> Well if there wasn't, no one would argue over it so much.
213 2012-02-01 01:10:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh wait, CBlockStore ;)
214 2012-02-01 01:10:50 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
215 2012-02-01 01:11:22 <gmaxwell> yea, I didn't mention any API things (except seperating the interface, I guess) because I've never had an opinion on API, and I try not to have one!
216 2012-02-01 01:11:46 <BlueMatt> heh, ok
217 2012-02-01 01:12:40 SomeoneWeirdzzzz is now known as SomeoneWeird
218 2012-02-01 01:12:57 * BlueMatt also offers 1 BTC to anyone who finds the performance bug hiding in CBlockStore
219 2012-02-01 01:13:04 <BlueMatt> (before 0.6 is released)
220 2012-02-01 01:14:52 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Soâ on BIP10, one complication is that the offline client would be forced to show the change as an output when it asks for approval. Seems unfortunate to me.
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222 2012-02-01 01:15:26 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I suppose it could detect it by seeing if its a key it controls, but then it would potentially have to enumerate its wallet chains quite far to find it.
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224 2012-02-01 01:15:56 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, that is true... I autodetect that in Armory (doing exactly what you suggested), but the logic wasn't trivial
225 2012-02-01 01:16:58 <etotheipi_> but for an arbitrary transaction, you are right, we don't know the change output
226 2012-02-01 01:17:02 Insti has joined
227 2012-02-01 01:18:15 <gmaxwell> I'm worried about the computation required to detect it. You could flag itâ and the device could show the flag but the flag might be a lie. :(
228 2012-02-01 01:18:26 <etotheipi_> I was just about to say that
229 2012-02-01 01:18:28 <gmaxwell> Your determinstic keys don't give random access.
230 2012-02-01 01:18:36 <gmaxwell> otherwise you could just give the relevant index.
231 2012-02-01 01:18:41 <graingert> have two sets of deterministic keys
232 2012-02-01 01:18:43 <etotheipi_> what do yo umean?
233 2012-02-01 01:18:48 <graingert> one for change and one for regualar
234 2012-02-01 01:18:52 <etotheipi_> i can access keys by hash160 or index
235 2012-02-01 01:19:18 <etotheipi_> it's just a matter of how you read them in from file into RAM data structures
236 2012-02-01 01:19:27 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I mean if the change is to the 283498th index you're going to be doing a lot of computation on what may be some 10mw security hardened arm core.
237 2012-02-01 01:19:58 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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239 2012-02-01 01:22:57 <gmaxwell> You can buy tamperresistant single chip computers off the shelfâ thats what I'd really want my offline wallet to be. But they're not speed demons... fine for signing a transaction in subsecond times, not so much for enumerating long determinstic key chains.
240 2012-02-01 01:24:37 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, that was one of the downsides of moving from the "linear" to hash-based deterministic wallet
241 2012-02-01 01:24:54 <etotheipi_> the old method, I could generate like 100,000 private keys per second
242 2012-02-01 01:25:14 <etotheipi_> the new method is bottlenecked by the priv->pub compute time
243 2012-02-01 01:25:15 <poiuh> what happens if allocatoin fails during unserialization
244 2012-02-01 01:25:27 sacarlson has joined
245 2012-02-01 01:25:31 <poiuh> std::bad_alloc ?
246 2012-02-01 01:25:51 <etotheipi_> poiuh, what unserialization?
247 2012-02-01 01:26:07 [Tycho] has joined
248 2012-02-01 01:26:27 <poiuh> serialize.h
249 2012-02-01 01:26:28 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, you have to make some assumption about the private keys... in my case I assume that there will never be a gap of more than 100 keys without one being used
250 2012-02-01 01:26:44 <etotheipi_> (customizable for the application... could be 10,000 for a big distributor)
251 2012-02-01 01:27:45 <etotheipi_> in my case, if I don't make *some* assumption like that, then I do run off into undefined-compute-time
252 2012-02-01 01:28:17 <etotheipi_> I could be searching for a key I don't even have.... generate a couple-hundred-thousand addresses before the battery is drained
253 2012-02-01 01:29:21 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
254 2012-02-01 01:29:42 <poiuh> main.cpp:2657: catch (std::ios_base::failure& e)
255 2012-02-01 01:29:46 <poiuh> i guess it would be caught there
256 2012-02-01 01:30:15 <poiuh> or rather at 2674: catch (std::exception& e) {
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267 2012-02-01 01:43:52 <luke-jr> O.o BIP 22 isn't very good itself (blockchain fork), but does raise some interesting ideas
268 2012-02-01 01:44:01 Backburn has joined
269 2012-02-01 01:44:49 <luke-jr> am I correct in thinking that if a pubkey has extra crap on the end, it will be ignored by current clients?
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271 2012-02-01 01:45:29 <gmaxwell> umm.
272 2012-02-01 01:45:30 <gmaxwell> wtf
273 2012-02-01 01:45:48 <gmaxwell> it's embedding another scripting system in the scripting system, and its completely incompatible.
274 2012-02-01 01:45:57 <gmaxwell> Why do we give BIPs for non-starter ideas? :(
275 2012-02-01 01:46:22 <luke-jr> no idea, but think of this:
276 2012-02-01 01:46:37 <luke-jr> what if all multisigs were A && (â¦) ?
277 2012-02-01 01:46:42 <poiuh> is there a bip for DOUBLE_SPEND_NOTICE
278 2012-02-01 01:46:44 <luke-jr> could they be hidden inside the pubkey?
279 2012-02-01 01:47:02 <tcatm> We should have a BIP review process before they get assigned a number at all.
280 2012-02-01 01:47:02 <luke-jr> poiuh: no, if you want to write one, I think it'd be a good idea
281 2012-02-01 01:47:32 <etotheipi_> I have a reference implementation in Armory, but it's not very useful when the satoshi client drops double-broadcast tx before I see them :(
282 2012-02-01 01:47:34 <gmaxwell> poiuh: no, it came up on the mailing list a while back.. a couple of non-starters were proposed (DOS vulnerable, attack magnets) and the provable type came up eventually.
283 2012-02-01 01:48:00 <poiuh> interesting
284 2012-02-01 01:48:06 <poiuh> gmaxwell: provable type?
285 2012-02-01 01:48:33 <gmaxwell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/features
286 2012-02-01 01:48:34 <gmaxwell> Provable notice of doublespend (when a node sees a doublespend it prepares an alert indexed by the doublespent output, including at least two spends of it, and floods it, if a client receives a such a notice for a transaction sent to it, it shoots fireworks and greatly delays showing it as confirmed)
287 2012-02-01 01:48:44 <poiuh> oh cool
288 2012-02-01 01:49:14 <gmaxwell> The key there is that it actually shows its peers the double spending signatures, so it can't be faked. And if it's identified by input hash, it can't be too much of a flood storm creater
289 2012-02-01 01:49:22 graingert has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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291 2012-02-01 01:49:45 <poiuh> seems like a cool idea
292 2012-02-01 01:49:58 maqr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
293 2012-02-01 01:51:06 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: anyway, do you think that's possible? BIP 22 restricted to A && (â¦) cases?
294 2012-02-01 01:51:33 <luke-jr> actually
295 2012-02-01 01:51:39 <luke-jr> that'd have the static analysis issue, wouldn't it?
296 2012-02-01 01:51:49 <poiuh> beyond that.. far in the future, you might want a way to query a random node about a tx. command="tx_info" the node would respond with details if it saw the tx, if it considers it valid, if it was marked dblspend etc. that way you can ping random nodes to get a feel for whether or not the tx you're interested in was propagated somewhere
297 2012-02-01 01:52:05 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
298 2012-02-01 01:52:52 <poiuh> the point being to increase confidence in quick payments without waiting for the next block
299 2012-02-01 01:53:34 <gmaxwell> poiuh: oh that reminds me of another one
300 2012-02-01 01:55:07 <gmaxwell> *P2Pool
301 2012-02-01 01:55:08 <gmaxwell> **If P2Pools have a significant amount of hashpower, and their shares carry commitments to transactions, P2Pool can create sub-minute evidence of intent to mine â coupled with double-spend-alerts can create pretty good fast confidence.
302 2012-02-01 01:55:23 <gmaxwell> (more a p2pool feature than a bitcoin one, but it's a point of integration)
303 2012-02-01 01:55:33 <poiuh> hmm pretty cool
304 2012-02-01 01:56:13 <gmaxwell> poiuh: your querying is a good idea tooâ you don't even need a protocol feature for it. nodes won't remember double spends, if they remember the transaction then its the winner from their perspective.
305 2012-02-01 01:56:17 Vladimir has quit (Quit: Page closed)
306 2012-02-01 01:56:18 <gmaxwell> So just ask nodes for the txn in question.
307 2012-02-01 01:56:25 <poiuh> yeah makes sense
308 2012-02-01 01:57:04 <gmaxwell> though personally I think someone should run a confirmation insurance service that uses stuff like that to offer vendors reversal insurance for a modest fee.
309 2012-02-01 01:57:15 <poiuh> yeah
310 2012-02-01 01:57:46 <poiuh> for small tx like $20 in gas, i think most vendors would be fine with some doublespend alerts / confidence in propagated tx
311 2012-02-01 01:58:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: amen
312 2012-02-01 02:00:07 <gmaxwell> Well, unfortunately when I bring this up around bitcoiners a .. frightening number of them seem to assume such a service would involve contracts with miners to rewrite the chains. 0_o
313 2012-02-01 02:00:17 <gmaxwell> must be some cultural gap about what "insurance" means.
314 2012-02-01 02:00:42 <gmaxwell> In my world insurance involves pocket protectors and actuarials.
315 2012-02-01 02:00:55 <k9quaint> insurance means geckos with australian accents
316 2012-02-01 02:01:03 <BlueMatt> or just a desire to think everything bitcoin is a conspiracy
317 2012-02-01 02:01:04 <k9quaint> I don't want geckos in my block chain
318 2012-02-01 02:01:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I don't even mean having negative opinions about it being that. 0_o
319 2012-02-01 02:01:34 BurtyBB has joined
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321 2012-02-01 02:02:12 <k9quaint> bluematt: I think Solidcoin serves a valid purpose by syphoning off the worst conspiracy nutjobs so BTC doesn't have to deal with em
322 2012-02-01 02:02:23 rdponticelli_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
323 2012-02-01 02:02:23 <BlueMatt> heh
324 2012-02-01 02:02:31 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: except we do, because it becomes their holy mission to attack bitcoin.
325 2012-02-01 02:02:36 <k9quaint> I mean, try to picture coinhunter trying to argue about BIPS
326 2012-02-01 02:02:40 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: http://solidcoinmafia.com/
327 2012-02-01 02:02:51 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: he's currently doing so, you haven't seen that thread? :)
328 2012-02-01 02:03:08 <k9quaint> you clicked on a thread with Coinhunter talking about code in it?
329 2012-02-01 02:03:12 <gmaxwell> becuase this BIP thing involves Luke and the altcoiners hate luke... well..
330 2012-02-01 02:03:12 <k9quaint> your problem, not mine
331 2012-02-01 02:03:29 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: you can't tell from the bitcointalk urls when people paste them in irc. :(
332 2012-02-01 02:03:41 <k9quaint> btw, I modded BTC so that gavin can't alert me
333 2012-02-01 02:03:46 * k9quaint flexes
334 2012-02-01 02:03:53 <gmaxwell> you ninja you.
335 2012-02-01 02:04:22 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: you ever see what the alerts look like in bitcoind? they're cool
336 2012-02-01 02:04:37 <gmaxwell> They show up in that useless errors field in getinfo.
337 2012-02-01 02:04:45 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
338 2012-02-01 02:05:02 h4ckm3 has joined
339 2012-02-01 02:05:29 <k9quaint> don't try to use your mind control lasers on me sir, they NO LONGER WORK
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344 2012-02-01 02:21:32 <Graet> hmm interesting, imnsurance to me means someone pays me not to go to work for a bit longer
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359 2012-02-01 02:44:28 <avivmas_> hi
360 2012-02-01 02:44:52 <avivmas_> whats up
361 2012-02-01 02:45:00 <avivmas_> nakamoto ded?
362 2012-02-01 02:45:54 rdponticelli has joined
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365 2012-02-01 02:47:06 <BlueMatt> you mean satoshi, no one has heard from him in months and months
366 2012-02-01 02:47:14 <BlueMatt> nearly a year in a few months
367 2012-02-01 02:47:15 dan__ has quit (Quit: dan__)
368 2012-02-01 02:49:40 <luke-jr> he left
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373 2012-02-01 02:55:31 <Ferroh> ;;bc, stats
374 2012-02-01 02:55:31 <gribble> Error: "bc," is not a valid command.
375 2012-02-01 02:56:53 <luke-jr> grep fTimeReceivedIsTxTime src/*.cpp <-- makes me very confused :|
376 2012-02-01 02:59:56 bob12321 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
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378 2012-02-01 03:02:00 <poiuh> etotheipi_ is a smart dude
379 2012-02-01 03:03:15 <etotheipi_> poiuh, where did that come from?
380 2012-02-01 03:03:28 <etotheipi_> are you listening to my conversation with my girlfriend?
381 2012-02-01 03:03:51 makomk has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
382 2012-02-01 03:03:56 makomk has joined
383 2012-02-01 03:04:12 <etotheipi_> (thanks, btw)
384 2012-02-01 03:04:32 Ferroh has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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386 2012-02-01 03:13:57 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, do you have a recommendation for the change-output issue? It seems to me that for a multi-sig tx, change isn't really an issue (the single input had a specific value), and for your own tx, you either would recognize the change output yourself, or Armory will be able to identify based on your wallet
387 2012-02-01 03:14:36 <etotheipi_> I guess, for your own tx, it could have a comment identifying which is which (in the TxDP)
388 2012-02-01 03:14:52 <etotheipi_> actually, that's one update to BIP 0010 that might be worth adding: comment lines
389 2012-02-01 03:15:11 <etotheipi_> they could be used for communicating between parties, or clients could insert special strings for themselves to understand
390 2012-02-01 03:15:27 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: my concern was mostly offline wallets where the private keys were limited devices and couldn't easily do the smart identification.
391 2012-02-01 03:15:42 <gmaxwell> A flag would be nice so they could at least be smarter about their search.
392 2012-02-01 03:15:51 <gmaxwell> and yes, I think a comment field is important.
393 2012-02-01 03:15:58 <gmaxwell> "which one was this? shit"
394 2012-02-01 03:16:34 minimoose has joined
395 2012-02-01 03:20:39 <etotheipi_> Just hash-prefixed lines?
396 2012-02-01 03:21:08 <etotheipi_> since it is parsed line-by-line, I guess any line anywhere that starts with a '#' can be ignored
397 2012-02-01 03:21:28 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, well... nobody that is admitting it
398 2012-02-01 03:21:29 <etotheipi_> and then clients can put whatever they want there... human-readable, or just information for the offline system
399 2012-02-01 03:24:03 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: ???
400 2012-02-01 03:24:27 <phantomcircuit> <BlueMatt> you mean satoshi, no one has heard from him in months and months
401 2012-02-01 03:24:27 <phantomcircuit> <BlueMatt> nearly a year in a few months
402 2012-02-01 03:24:34 <BlueMatt> oh
403 2012-02-01 03:24:35 <BlueMatt> yea
404 2012-02-01 03:25:52 <poiuh> coiledcoin
405 2012-02-01 03:26:29 <etotheipi_> actually, while I'm at it, and before I do my first release, any other recommendations for BIP 0010? The choice of formatting/strings might be suboptimal...
406 2012-02-01 03:27:29 <splatster> et
407 2012-02-01 03:27:32 <splatster> oops
408 2012-02-01 03:27:55 <splatster> etotheipi_: Is RAM now not so intensively used?
409 2012-02-01 03:31:19 <da2ce7> ooh https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0022
410 2012-02-01 03:31:50 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: that's dead on arrival. It requires a chain fork.
411 2012-02-01 03:32:15 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: it also embeds a seperate scripting language inside the scripting language.
412 2012-02-01 03:32:37 <da2ce7> ok.
413 2012-02-01 03:33:04 <da2ce7> maybe mike should update his BIP to indicate it requires a fork.
414 2012-02-01 03:33:06 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I don't think the BIP as written is rigorous, e.g. that without looking at your code I could write my own and and up successfully parsing the same inputs as you.
415 2012-02-01 03:33:17 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: it does, around page 10 of it or so.
416 2012-02-01 03:33:22 <splatster> Which one requires the least change for the protocol and all of the bitcoin nodes?
417 2012-02-01 03:34:06 <gmaxwell> splatster: BIP16 / BIP17 are basically equal. 17's patch is a bit smaller, but adding the checksig fix on top of it will probably make it equal.
418 2012-02-01 03:35:04 <splatster> Which one will be easiest for custom nodes to implement?
419 2012-02-01 03:35:30 <gmaxwell> Again, they're roughly equal.
420 2012-02-01 03:35:52 <splatster> So why do people prefer one over the other?
421 2012-02-01 03:36:34 <luke-jr> da2ce7: with some revision, it wouldn't require a fork; but it would break roconor's static analysis thing
422 2012-02-01 03:36:39 <gmaxwell> splatster: because the essence of being a geek is caring about things no one cares about.. for better or worse. Sometimes things no one should care about.
423 2012-02-01 03:36:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: checksig fix?
424 2012-02-01 03:37:03 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: the sigops counting.
425 2012-02-01 03:37:16 <luke-jr> oh, non-checkmultisig multisig?
426 2012-02-01 03:37:44 <gmaxwell> Is _that_ how it was proposed to fix it in 17? I didn't actually see the proposal for that.
427 2012-02-01 03:37:44 <luke-jr> it might.
428 2012-02-01 03:37:53 <gmaxwell> I just knew there was one.
429 2012-02-01 03:37:56 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I was waiting for genjix to give me a BIP number⦠:p
430 2012-02-01 03:38:16 <splatster> I would consider myself a geek, I just don't obsess over stupid shit.
431 2012-02-01 03:38:17 <luke-jr> since it's a future problem, I don't really consider it a priority
432 2012-02-01 03:38:39 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Can we have some pre-bip process? I don't think new ideas should be introduced via bips. It's really sad to see people do a lot of careful writing just to get the "ummm. no" :(
433 2012-02-01 03:38:56 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I also posted for reviews in here a few days ago ;)
434 2012-02-01 03:39:00 <gmaxwell> splatster: whatever you are interested is not stupid to you, it might be stupid to other people.
435 2012-02-01 03:39:08 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I saw you do that. sorry!
436 2012-02-01 03:39:10 <luke-jr> http://pastebin.com/cw59JfnU
437 2012-02-01 03:40:33 <gmaxwell> hm. it's a little more data, but not that much.
438 2012-02-01 03:41:32 <luke-jr> I think it evens out the data size when added to BIP 17
439 2012-02-01 03:41:39 <luke-jr> since BIP 17 used slightly less
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453 2012-02-01 03:59:35 <etotheipi_> splatster, alpha release will still be full-RAM
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455 2012-02-01 04:01:27 <etotheipi_> the RAM reduction is first priority after alpha, along with address books (right now it's a pain to move money between wallets, or find old addresses)
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467 2012-02-01 04:21:46 <casascius> Random idea: any way to get the channel log moved to a better host that doesn't serve advertising that attempts exploits? On multiple occasions, I have had the channel log page try to hijack my machine, such as with fake antivirus.
468 2012-02-01 04:21:51 <casascius> This happened again just now
469 2012-02-01 04:21:51 RedEmerald_ is now known as RedEmerald
470 2012-02-01 04:22:56 <BlueMatt> casascius: tell cdecker about that
471 2012-02-01 04:23:00 <BlueMatt> (he runs it)
472 2012-02-01 04:23:15 dan___ has joined
473 2012-02-01 04:23:21 <BlueMatt> Im sure he'll be more than happy to deal with it
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477 2012-02-01 04:28:20 <casascius> thanks
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485 2012-02-01 04:33:34 <poiuh> satoshi officially endorses coiledcoin
486 2012-02-01 04:36:01 <luke-jr> does that mean I should stop demanding 100 CLC fees on txns?
487 2012-02-01 04:36:16 <poiuh> haha
488 2012-02-01 04:38:14 <nanotube> casascius: i can put up gribble's -dev chanlog as a backup if you prefer. :)
489 2012-02-01 04:40:20 <casascius> no prob by me, it is not somehting i access frequently, just something i thought maybe nobody was aware of
490 2012-02-01 04:41:12 * nanotube just looks at chanlogs on local disk... ;)
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497 2012-02-01 05:21:41 <etotheipi_> so wtf is this tonal bitcoin stuff?
498 2012-02-01 05:22:04 <etotheipi_> I have no idea what it offers anyone, besides a lot of confusion...
499 2012-02-01 05:23:08 <etotheipi_> is there a reason I should consider figuring it out?
500 2012-02-01 05:23:29 <BlueMatt> no
501 2012-02-01 05:23:36 <BlueMatt> (unless you are luke)
502 2012-02-01 05:27:12 <casascius> all you need to know about tonal is 2 things, 1 luke promotes it as easier for humans, and 2, in tonal, 5+5=9
503 2012-02-01 05:27:42 <gmaxwell> This is all you need to know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXx2VVSWDMo
504 2012-02-01 05:27:53 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
505 2012-02-01 05:28:02 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: it's just base 16 with funny symbols.
506 2012-02-01 05:29:17 <casascius> and one of those funny symbols is the glyph "9" and has a value of ten
507 2012-02-01 05:29:35 <etotheipi_> what is the point of it?
508 2012-02-01 05:29:36 <gmaxwell> oh wow, that video doesn't have the part of the song where he does it in base 8.
509 2012-02-01 05:29:40 <casascius> i caught luke getting confused by this in one of his posts
510 2012-02-01 05:30:18 <gmaxwell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfCJgC2zezw < oh this one has it.
511 2012-02-01 05:30:50 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_System#Tonal_System_.28Hexadecimal.29
512 2012-02-01 05:30:57 <etotheipi_> there must be some justifiable reason for coming up with it
513 2012-02-01 05:31:41 <casascius> the justifiable reason is based on the notion that fractions are more natural when based on powers of two than ten
514 2012-02-01 05:32:06 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: twos rich bases make subdividing easier.
515 2012-02-01 05:32:15 <gmaxwell> This sort of thinking is why there are 360 degrees in a circle.
516 2012-02-01 05:32:38 <gmaxwell> (2*2*2*3*3*5, nice and factor rich)
517 2012-02-01 05:33:11 <etotheipi_> gotcha
518 2012-02-01 05:33:15 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: http://books.google.com/books?id=aNYGAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover
519 2012-02-01 05:33:54 <gmaxwell> It's not a bad idea, except for the whole being-compatible-is-more-important-than-everything detal that makes lots of things choose lesser options.
520 2012-02-01 05:34:55 * luke-jr takes the position that being-multilingual-is-more-important-than-what-you-use ;)
521 2012-02-01 05:34:56 <casascius> i would find it less peculiar if 1 TBC = 1 BTC and that TBC was just BTC written in hex (e.g. 1000 TBC is just 4096 BTC)... but he has his definition pegged to the satoshi, so rather, it's 0.00001000 TBC = 0.00004096 BTC
522 2012-02-01 05:34:57 <etotheipi_> I can see, if you grew up learning that and nothing else (in a vacuum), it might be slightly beneficial... but in a world full of established number system...
523 2012-02-01 05:34:57 maqr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
524 2012-02-01 05:35:09 <casascius> and 1 TBC is like 42.94967296 BTC (2^32 satoshi)
525 2012-02-01 05:35:25 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: it's probably beneficial to be fluent in multiple systems howeverâ gives you more mental tools for working with things.
526 2012-02-01 05:35:26 <casascius> i fully agree, if we were in the stone age inventing numbers, it would be a great thing
527 2012-02-01 05:35:44 <luke-jr> 1 TBC = 0.00065536 BTC fwiw
528 2012-02-01 05:35:54 <gmaxwell> (and, while I know nothing about the tonal symbols, I'm comfortable with doing arithemetic in base-2 and 16 and I find it useful)
529 2012-02-01 05:35:59 <casascius> yeah, I knew it was something like that, but it's so damn confusing =)
530 2012-02-01 05:36:19 <TuxBlackEdo> mmm bitcoin bongs
531 2012-02-01 05:36:44 * luke-jr teaches his children Tonal, Dozenal, Decimal, Octal, and Binary
532 2012-02-01 05:37:11 <casascius> what will they grow up to be?
533 2012-02-01 05:37:13 <TuxBlackEdo> i can only imagine how luke-jr's children will turn out
534 2012-02-01 05:37:39 <luke-jr> casascius: well-rounded polymaths hopefully? :p
535 2012-02-01 05:38:11 <casascius> why not just use hexadecimal instead of tonal
536 2012-02-01 05:38:43 <casascius> using tonal symbols is like writing english with Mormon Deseret Alphabet characters (which look very much like tonal)
537 2012-02-01 05:38:50 <luke-jr> casascius: because tonal was already there and ready to use. I didn't want to invent something new.
538 2012-02-01 05:38:51 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: my girlfriend recommends this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideways_Arithmetic_From_Wayside_School
539 2012-02-01 05:39:12 <casascius> isn't hexadecimal already there and easy to use, and "9" always means nine as a bonus?
540 2012-02-01 05:39:17 <luke-jr> inventing something new would mean I'd *really* be the only one using it
541 2012-02-01 05:39:35 <luke-jr> casascius: no, hexadecimal doesn't have pronunciations, units of measure, etc
542 2012-02-01 05:39:44 <luke-jr> calendar, etc etc
543 2012-02-01 05:39:51 <gmaxwell> casascius: common hex usage doesn't have the negative exponent usage either.
544 2012-02-01 05:40:18 <gmaxwell> The closest you get is binary, where binary floating point is common, but we always end up poorly converting it to dec and thus don't have names for it.
545 2012-02-01 05:40:24 <luke-jr> casascius: plus, letters make for bad digits
546 2012-02-01 05:40:59 <casascius> Why do letters make bad digits? Will someone confuse 0xdeadbeef with meat?
547 2012-02-01 05:41:36 <luke-jr> someone might confuse a fish with 1 fish
548 2012-02-01 05:41:51 <casascius> sure is better than someone confusing "9" (0x09) with "9" (0x0a)
549 2012-02-01 05:42:03 <gmaxwell> yes. I mean .. 2ax=3 .. is that 2*a*x=3 or 2a*x = 3?
550 2012-02-01 05:42:14 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: whats the reason for the 9swap btw?
551 2012-02-01 05:42:29 <luke-jr> casascius: that's minor considering the decimal digits are recycled at all; I'd personally prefer 0x10 new digits entirely
552 2012-02-01 05:42:49 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I presume to mirror the low-bit digit 6
553 2012-02-01 05:42:49 <casascius> if we considered "a" to mean ten, we'd never use it as a variable in algebra
554 2012-02-01 05:43:07 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: the high-bit digits are inverted low-bit digits to some extent
555 2012-02-01 05:43:09 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: clever
556 2012-02-01 05:43:10 <casascius> anymore than one would ask, 2+9=3, solve for 9
557 2012-02-01 05:43:49 <gmaxwell> casascius: A number was found where a variable was expected -`solve'
558 2012-02-01 05:44:03 <luke-jr> I suspect the original reason he kept the decimal digits was the intention of replacing decimal overnight globally
559 2012-02-01 05:44:06 <casascius> but 6 inverted is nine, not ten. so why shouldn't "9" mean nine if that's the case
560 2012-02-01 05:44:20 <luke-jr> casascius: â¦
561 2012-02-01 05:44:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yea, actually at the time it was proposed it was probably possible to think of that.
562 2012-02-01 05:44:50 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: the whole reason decimal won out in SI was because the treaties establishing SI specified it -.-
563 2012-02-01 05:44:59 <luke-jr> casascius: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Hexadecimal_Clock_by_Nystrom.jpg
564 2012-02-01 05:45:14 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: to be fair, decimal was being widely used before then.
565 2012-02-01 05:45:15 <luke-jr> casascius: observe how the right side mirrors the left
566 2012-02-01 05:45:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: sure, but so was imperial units
567 2012-02-01 05:45:42 <luke-jr> and other dozenal and tonal native units
568 2012-02-01 05:46:01 <casascius> i have a mind to manufacture you that clock on my laser engraver
569 2012-02-01 05:46:02 <gmaxwell> yea, we still do use dozenal units too.
570 2012-02-01 05:46:40 <luke-jr> casascius: I'm seriously looking for gears to build a tonal grandfather clock if you know where I could get those :p
571 2012-02-01 05:46:49 <luke-jr> it's surprisingly difficult to find
572 2012-02-01 05:46:54 <casascius> do you have the face of that clock
573 2012-02-01 05:47:01 <gmaxwell> why would you need gears? you just change the face?
574 2012-02-01 05:47:22 <gmaxwell> or is the tonal minute a different length? I guess it would be.
575 2012-02-01 05:47:25 <etotheipi_> he'll only take gears if the number of teeth is a power of 2
576 2012-02-01 05:47:27 <gmaxwell> Does tonal time use the SI second?
577 2012-02-01 05:47:30 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: seconds hand is the problem
578 2012-02-01 05:47:31 <luke-jr> no
579 2012-02-01 05:47:43 <gmaxwell> Ah. meh. You should fix that.
580 2012-02-01 05:47:47 pickett has joined
581 2012-02-01 05:47:51 <luke-jr> tonal timmill is 1.318359375 seconds
582 2012-02-01 05:47:58 <gmaxwell> SI second is the hardest one to change.
583 2012-02-01 05:48:06 <gmaxwell> bleh I guess you can't.
584 2012-02-01 05:48:08 <luke-jr> also, the dozenal clock has 20; hours per day
585 2012-02-01 05:48:30 <casascius> what size do said gears need to be
586 2012-02-01 05:48:30 <luke-jr> tonal clock is 10 tims per day
587 2012-02-01 05:48:39 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
588 2012-02-01 05:48:44 <luke-jr> casascius: it's been a while⦠I'd have to redo the math I suspect
589 2012-02-01 05:49:00 <casascius> i would have no problem creating a metallic face of a tonal clock
590 2012-02-01 05:49:05 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: We're all familar with the theory behind gears with teeth which are natural numbers in cardinality...
591 2012-02-01 05:49:51 <casascius> i have no problem with the fascination with tonal numbers to begin with, of course i dont think it belongs in bitcoin, but i'd make you a tonal clock if it was as easy as pushing a button
592 2012-02-01 05:50:10 <casascius> do you have your tonal clock face in a vectorized form
593 2012-02-01 05:50:51 <luke-jr> well, this is primarily a school project, so I was planning to have my children draw one on cardboard <.<
594 2012-02-01 05:51:21 <luke-jr> I'm not aware of any vectorized clock face
595 2012-02-01 05:51:44 <casascius> you should vectorize it and i'll burn it on a piece of wood. good luck finding a movement in the right units, but it will at least look neat
596 2012-02-01 05:51:48 <luke-jr> I suppose it shouldn't be too difficult to make though⦠I do have the tonal characters in SVG
597 2012-02-01 05:52:03 b4epoche_ has joined
598 2012-02-01 05:52:25 pickett has joined
599 2012-02-01 05:52:42 <etotheipi_> luke-jr, aren't there more useful things you could be doing with your time?
600 2012-02-01 05:52:47 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
601 2012-02-01 05:52:47 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
602 2012-02-01 05:52:51 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: more useful than teaching my children?
603 2012-02-01 05:52:51 <etotheipi_> I mean, it's a cool concept...
604 2012-02-01 05:53:11 <etotheipi_> okay, more useful things you could be teaching your children
605 2012-02-01 05:53:13 <luke-jr> that's my primary duty in life, everything else revolves around it
606 2012-02-01 05:53:24 <luke-jr> well, numbers isn't their only subject ofc
607 2012-02-01 05:53:43 <luke-jr> I'm behind on non-English languages, partly because I suck at them
608 2012-02-01 05:54:44 <poiuh> L-i
609 2012-02-01 05:54:53 * luke-jr peers
610 2012-02-01 05:55:13 NxTitle has joined
611 2012-02-01 05:56:23 <NxTitle> SuprTiggr: I don't know if you're solely a bot, but if you are can you _please_ stop telling me being logged in as root is a bad thing?
612 2012-02-01 05:56:41 <NxTitle> I'm not running as root, that's merely my fake ident
613 2012-02-01 05:56:59 <luke-jr> LOL
614 2012-02-01 05:57:07 <gmaxwell> SuprTiggr: can you please give me that script so I can run it too?
615 2012-02-01 05:57:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I didn't know you used mIRC!
616 2012-02-01 05:57:35 <gmaxwell> NxTitle: just /ignore it in your settings. Come on.
617 2012-02-01 05:57:49 <luke-jr> :p
618 2012-02-01 05:57:51 <NxTitle> gmaxwell: oh right >.<
619 2012-02-01 05:58:09 ThomasV has joined
620 2012-02-01 05:58:15 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: "BitchX" forever, yo.
621 2012-02-01 05:58:22 <NxTitle> s/X//
622 2012-02-01 05:58:59 <NxTitle> so what's up with all this bitcoin drama?
623 2012-02-01 05:59:26 <gmaxwell> Nah, there is no drama.
624 2012-02-01 05:59:39 <NxTitle> gavin wants to kick out luke-jr or something?
625 2012-02-01 06:03:20 <BlueMatt> he did, but luke is calming down(ish) since gavin said that
626 2012-02-01 06:03:23 <BlueMatt> so maybe not
627 2012-02-01 06:03:49 <NxTitle> ah, I see
628 2012-02-01 06:05:47 <NxTitle> that's good
629 2012-02-01 06:06:41 <NxTitle> while I disagree with lots of viewpoints of his (might as well be honest :P), he's still contributed lots to bitcoin and it would suck to see him go
630 2012-02-01 06:11:45 JRWR has joined
631 2012-02-01 06:15:43 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell - RootWarner plugin for SupyBot is the script
632 2012-02-01 06:15:53 <MrTiggr> is python so u can prolly reuse it in other bot ;)
633 2012-02-01 06:16:01 <NxTitle> lol
634 2012-02-01 06:19:18 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
635 2012-02-01 06:20:20 <MrTiggr> i hope ur using an IRC client that is 100% secure with no vulnerabilities in it NxTitle ;) ... otherwise, SuprTiggr's warnings may be warranted ;) [BTW - i am SuprTiggr's botherder]
636 2012-02-01 06:20:53 <NxTitle> MrTiggr: fake ident, I'm not running as root
637 2012-02-01 06:20:59 <NxTitle> it's the user setting in irssi
638 2012-02-01 06:21:18 yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
639 2012-02-01 06:21:23 <MrTiggr> lol nice
640 2012-02-01 06:21:42 yorick has joined
641 2012-02-01 06:21:49 <MrTiggr> i'll see if i cant tell supr to let you be ..... i'm not turning RootWarner off tho
642 2012-02-01 06:22:46 <NxTitle> but don't worry - I run ssh without a password, use windows XP SP0 without a firewall, enter my CC into sketchy websites, and donate to nigerians
643 2012-02-01 06:22:51 <NxTitle> so I'm secure
644 2012-02-01 06:23:02 <NxTitle> sshd, I might add
645 2012-02-01 06:24:12 Joric has joined
646 2012-02-01 06:24:16 dissipate has joined
647 2012-02-01 06:24:32 <etotheipi_> Joric, you should look for splatster and figure out Armory compiling
648 2012-02-01 06:24:41 <etotheipi_> we made a breakthrough
649 2012-02-01 06:24:45 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
650 2012-02-01 06:24:46 <etotheipi_> but I couldn't help anymore
651 2012-02-01 06:24:49 <splatster> yes we did
652 2012-02-01 06:25:21 <splatster> /me breaks out pastebin for some disgusting logs
653 2012-02-01 06:25:26 Moron__ has joined
654 2012-02-01 06:25:48 <NxTitle> I compiled armory on windows this morning
655 2012-02-01 06:25:57 <splatster> this is for OS X
656 2012-02-01 06:25:58 <NxTitle> took me a hell of a lot of time
657 2012-02-01 06:26:01 <NxTitle> oh
658 2012-02-01 06:26:11 <etotheipi_> NxTitle, yeah there is nothing pleasant about the build instructions for it
659 2012-02-01 06:26:26 <etotheipi_> unfortunately I can't compile full binaries until I figure out a nasty doesn't-really-shutdown bug
660 2012-02-01 06:26:45 <NxTitle> the build instructions are actually very well written
661 2012-02-01 06:26:47 <splatster> Full log of latest make swig
662 2012-02-01 06:26:49 <splatster> http://pastebin.com/fJHAJFYP
663 2012-02-01 06:26:52 <NxTitle> it's just that I'm often an idiot :P
664 2012-02-01 06:27:01 pickett has joined
665 2012-02-01 06:27:03 random_cat has joined
666 2012-02-01 06:27:17 <etotheipi_> however, I can go halfway, and provide all the python code with a precompiled cppblockutils module -- the user will only need to download and install python, twisted, and pyqt4 (which should be fairly straightforward)
667 2012-02-01 06:27:33 <Joric> i made a breakthrought too
668 2012-02-01 06:27:37 <etotheipi_> in fact, I was just getting ready to do that...
669 2012-02-01 06:27:39 <splatster> Joric: So as I said last night, etotheipi_ sent me his premade .cxx and .py files that were causing trouble
670 2012-02-01 06:27:47 <NxTitle> indeed - I got it packaged up into py2exe and everything too
671 2012-02-01 06:27:50 <Joric> totally fucked up all my multiboot
672 2012-02-01 06:28:13 <Joric> but now i'm on 10.6.7 + xcode 4.2
673 2012-02-01 06:28:18 <splatster> So some tweaking of the make has left us with the log I put above
674 2012-02-01 06:28:30 <etotheipi_> NxTitle, be careful with the .exe... sometimes it leaves the python environment (with all the RAM) open in the background
675 2012-02-01 06:28:43 <splatster> Joric: Don't destroy your system, I'll keep doing this on mine
676 2012-02-01 06:28:54 <splatster> Any ideas what to do though?
677 2012-02-01 06:29:05 <etotheipi_> I cannot, for my life, figure out how to get qt4reactor to shutdown completely, reliably, on windows, yet
678 2012-02-01 06:29:17 <NxTitle> etotheipi_: will look out for that, however I have 16GB of ram on my main box :P
679 2012-02-01 06:29:39 <Joric> splatster, pastebin is empty
680 2012-02-01 06:29:51 <NxTitle> also, have you looked at the bug that one guy mentioned on the forum where it cannot connect to the local bitcoind when trying to send a transaction?
681 2012-02-01 06:29:56 <etotheipi_> this is my current system: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1139081/memusage.png
682 2012-02-01 06:29:58 <Joric> oh sorry it's okay
683 2012-02-01 06:30:08 <etotheipi_> NxTitle, I don't have a way to look at it
684 2012-02-01 06:30:14 <Joric> splatster, i've seen it two days agy
685 2012-02-01 06:30:17 <Joric> ago
686 2012-02-01 06:30:25 <NxTitle> I used the workaround by grabbing the transaction from the debug output and broadcasting it otherwise
687 2012-02-01 06:30:29 <NxTitle> however yeah
688 2012-02-01 06:30:37 <NxTitle> etotheipi_: what version of python and architecture are you using?
689 2012-02-01 06:30:46 <Joric> i compiled swig and made cxx/i myself on the mac but got the same linking errors
690 2012-02-01 06:30:48 <etotheipi_> oh yeah, I meant to add a popup about that, as an alternative
691 2012-02-01 06:30:49 <NxTitle> I was doing python 2.6 and 32-bit
692 2012-02-01 06:30:52 <MrTiggr> NxTitle: i have turned off rootwarner for this channel only - i figure us dev's know what we're doing :)
693 2012-02-01 06:30:55 <etotheipi_> nibor created a tool
694 2012-02-01 06:31:12 <etotheipi_> err.. webpage for broadcasting it
695 2012-02-01 06:31:19 <splatster> Joric: I'm lost
696 2012-02-01 06:31:28 <etotheipi_> but so far, I'm either connected, or I'm in offline mode, I can't get in between like you guys :(
697 2012-02-01 06:31:33 <NxTitle> MrTiggr: haha, alright - though everyone knows the safest way to run a box is as root :P
698 2012-02-01 06:31:50 <MrTiggr> LOL
699 2012-02-01 06:32:01 <Joric> splatster, so, did you manage to run it on on mac or not?
700 2012-02-01 06:32:04 <MrTiggr> windows users sure know that ;)
701 2012-02-01 06:32:06 <splatster> no
702 2012-02-01 06:32:15 <NxTitle> Disable UAC
703 2012-02-01 06:32:20 <NxTitle> profit
704 2012-02-01 06:32:27 <splatster> I can't get passed those errors
705 2012-02-01 06:32:29 <MrTiggr> hehehehe UAC==Graphical sudo ...done wrong
706 2012-02-01 06:32:37 <Joric> wow 15.7 GiB RAM
707 2012-02-01 06:32:42 <NxTitle> lol :P
708 2012-02-01 06:32:47 <Joric> 4 cpus
709 2012-02-01 06:33:09 <Joric> finally the system that suits etotheipi_ client just fine
710 2012-02-01 06:33:13 <Joric> no offence
711 2012-02-01 06:33:17 <NxTitle> MrTiggr: also the fact that you can just wrap an existing installer with a trojan - it asks for auth to install a legit program and bam, you are owned
712 2012-02-01 06:33:53 <MrTiggr> worser still ... we all know the stickykeys hack to pwn a doze box no !?
713 2012-02-01 06:35:03 <NxTitle> xD
714 2012-02-01 06:35:20 <MrTiggr> 1.) grab a copy of cmd 2.) boot to linux live cd of your chosing 3) mount the windoze drive 4.) replace stickeykeys exe with renamed cmd exe 5.) reboot to windows, hit shift 5 times and enjoy your new root/admin commandline :D
715 2012-02-01 06:35:24 <etotheipi_> no worries, Joric . I know that it's a PITA for resources... but I wanted to get it out there so people with the RAM *can* use it while I bring down the ram
716 2012-02-01 06:35:57 <etotheipi_> the blockchain doubled in size since I started the project :(
717 2012-02-01 06:36:03 <NxTitle> etotheipi_: another good way to use lots of memory is to pipe yes into yes - why I'm mentioning this, I don't know
718 2012-02-01 06:36:13 <etotheipi_> haha
719 2012-02-01 06:37:07 <etotheipi_> btw, Joric... Armory is not CPU intensive... just RAM
720 2012-02-01 06:37:13 <Joric> i made another chart using my extrapolation skills ) http://goo.gl/80CSr
721 2012-02-01 06:37:28 <NxTitle> well, it maxes out one core for a while, however on multicore that doesn't matter much
722 2012-02-01 06:38:15 <etotheipi_> so NxTitle, do you have the same tx-broadcast issue? perpetually?
723 2012-02-01 06:39:05 <NxTitle> so far it's been constant
724 2012-02-01 06:39:15 <NxTitle> however I've only tested it on one single machine
725 2012-02-01 06:39:17 <etotheipi_> argh... because I haven't had this problem once
726 2012-02-01 06:39:29 <NxTitle> using python 2.6 x86, with and without py2exe
727 2012-02-01 06:39:31 <etotheipi_> between all my VMs and host machine
728 2012-02-01 06:39:46 <NxTitle> it's possible you're using a different python/arch combo
729 2012-02-01 06:39:51 <NxTitle> and somehow that has to do with it
730 2012-02-01 06:39:55 <etotheipi_> well I'm using 2.6 x64
731 2012-02-01 06:40:07 <NxTitle> there are many possible factors, even down to twisted or pyqt4 versions
732 2012-02-01 06:40:28 RazielZ has joined
733 2012-02-01 06:40:46 <NxTitle> it's also possible this is a windows problem
734 2012-02-01 06:40:55 <NxTitle> though everything should be fairly cross platform
735 2012-02-01 06:41:00 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
736 2012-02-01 06:41:04 <etotheipi_> I've been testing it in Windows (and haven't heard any other reports)
737 2012-02-01 06:41:04 <splatster> etotheipi_: here's something interesting:
738 2012-02-01 06:41:06 <splatster> $ sudo python ArmoryQt.py Traceback (most recent call last):
739 2012-02-01 06:41:06 <splatster> File "ArmoryQt.py", line 35, in <module>
740 2012-02-01 06:41:06 <splatster> from PyQt4.QtCore import *
741 2012-02-01 06:41:06 <splatster> ImportError: No module named PyQt4.QtCore
742 2012-02-01 06:41:17 dan__ has quit (Quit: dan__)
743 2012-02-01 06:41:37 <etotheipi_> splatster, that's not "interesting," that's "whoops, I don't have PyQt4 installed"
744 2012-02-01 06:41:41 <NxTitle> sokyou need to install pyqt4 then :P
745 2012-02-01 06:41:47 <etotheipi_> (installed properly, at least)
746 2012-02-01 06:41:48 <splatster> so I am reinstalling py27-pyqt4
747 2012-02-01 06:41:50 <NxTitle> oops, fail tab
748 2012-02-01 06:41:58 <NxTitle> but yeah, what ethsaid
749 2012-02-01 06:42:07 <splatster> But it got farther than it normally would have
750 2012-02-01 06:42:12 <NxTitle> also, > sudo
751 2012-02-01 06:42:13 <NxTitle> why?
752 2012-02-01 06:42:53 <splatster> sudo because permissions problems are the #1 problem I have run into
753 2012-02-01 06:43:00 <etotheipi_> alright, just merged into Master for the first time since early december
754 2012-02-01 06:43:13 <splatster> not really but just in general it doesn't hurt
755 2012-02-01 06:43:30 <etotheipi_> I think it's ready for RC1, just to make sure I didn't botch something stupid in my last-minute polishing
756 2012-02-01 06:43:33 <NxTitle> odd - nothing in armory should require root permissions
757 2012-02-01 06:43:40 <splatster> Oh so now I am trying to compile old shit, yes?
758 2012-02-01 06:43:45 <NxTitle> at least in the code I've read
759 2012-02-01 06:43:51 <etotheipi_> splatster, don't worry about it
760 2012-02-01 06:44:04 <etotheipi_> I've polished the GUI, but the version you had still works
761 2012-02-01 06:44:18 <etotheipi_> and everything I've committed since your last checkout is all python-code updates: no recompiling necessary
762 2012-02-01 06:44:24 <NxTitle> anyways it's nearly midnight, so night all
763 2012-02-01 06:44:49 <NxTitle> etotheipi_: I'll come back on tomorrow or something and help diagnose the issue deeper
764 2012-02-01 06:44:50 pickett has joined
765 2012-02-01 06:45:05 <etotheipi_> that would be appreciated NxTitle
766 2012-02-01 06:45:06 <NxTitle> so far all I know is self.proto is not defined and that is triggering the DNE message
767 2012-02-01 06:45:12 <NxTitle> well, not set
768 2012-02-01 06:45:28 <etotheipi_> self.proto gets set when the connection is established
769 2012-02-01 06:45:38 <NxTitle> ah
770 2012-02-01 06:45:44 <etotheipi_> I'll check to see if it resets to "None" on disconnect
771 2012-02-01 06:45:59 <NxTitle> and oddly enough, it says in the debug that it successfully connects to satoshi client
772 2012-02-01 06:46:00 <etotheipi_> do you know if it says "Offline" in the bottom right corner?
773 2012-02-01 06:46:25 <NxTitle> I don't remember if it did, however I don't recall seeing it
774 2012-02-01 06:46:32 <poiuh> mangus
775 2012-02-01 06:46:35 <NxTitle> seems like something that would have stood out
776 2012-02-01 06:47:17 <etotheipi_> okay, talk more tomorrow
777 2012-02-01 06:47:18 <etotheipi_> thanks
778 2012-02-01 06:47:42 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
779 2012-02-01 06:48:01 <NxTitle> etotheipi_: do you think it's a good idea to try re-establishing the connection ion send if it appears to be disconnected?
780 2012-02-01 06:48:06 <NxTitle> ion = on
781 2012-02-01 06:48:36 <etotheipi_> NxTitle, that *is* what I'm doing... are you suggesting I shouldn't?
782 2012-02-01 06:49:02 <etotheipi_> usually when I leave Armory running for a long time, I see the "Handshake Complete. Connection Open!" message a few times
783 2012-02-01 06:49:06 <NxTitle> oh o.O I'm definitely not suggesting you shouldn't
784 2012-02-01 06:49:08 <etotheipi_> maybe once an hour
785 2012-02-01 06:49:28 <etotheipi_> this is why I'm confused
786 2012-02-01 06:49:45 <etotheipi_> if it couldn't connect the first time, it goes into offlien mode... if it does connect, then it will keep trying to reconnect
787 2012-02-01 06:49:48 <NxTitle> however I mean when you hit send, the slot receives the action, and if self.proto is None then attempt to re-establish
788 2012-02-01 06:50:00 <etotheipi_> and if it connected the first time, then it should be able to reconnect
789 2012-02-01 06:50:10 <splatster> Joric: Do you think a combo update would fix anything I might have broken in this whole proccess?
790 2012-02-01 06:50:29 <NxTitle> yeah, I just have to figure out where it's being set to None if anyywhere
791 2012-02-01 06:50:40 <etotheipi_> it doesn't get set in many places...
792 2012-02-01 06:51:14 maqr has joined
793 2012-02-01 06:51:28 <Joric> splatster, combo update where? i comboupdated to 10.6.7 it doesn't fix anything it only adds more mess )
794 2012-02-01 06:51:49 <NxTitle> yeah, I'll have to take a deeper look tomorrow
795 2012-02-01 06:51:49 <etotheipi_> I don't see how it could be none, unless it never connected to begin with
796 2012-02-01 06:51:53 <etotheipi_> okay, sounds good
797 2012-02-01 06:51:54 <NxTitle> for now though, goodnight
798 2012-02-01 06:54:57 <splatster> I think a 10.7.2 combo will solve any problems that become of all this shit
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810 2012-02-01 08:00:52 <splatster> etotheipi_: You still up?
811 2012-02-01 08:01:32 <splatster> Loading Armory Engine:
812 2012-02-01 08:01:33 <splatster> Armory Version: 0.50
813 2012-02-01 08:01:33 <splatster> PyBtcAddress Version: 1.00
814 2012-02-01 08:01:33 <splatster> PyBtcWallet Version: 1.35
815 2012-02-01 08:01:33 <splatster> Traceback (most recent call last):
816 2012-02-01 08:01:47 <splatster> File "ArmoryQt.py", line 39, in <module>
817 2012-02-01 08:01:48 <splatster> from armoryengine import *
818 2012-02-01 08:01:48 <splatster> File "/Users/zachsnow/Downloads/BitcoinArmory/armoryengine.py", line 123, in <module>
819 2012-02-01 08:01:48 <splatster> BTC_HOME_DIR = os.path.join(USER_HOME_DIR, 'Bitcoin', SUBDIR)
820 2012-02-01 08:01:58 <splatster> File "/opt/local/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/lib/python2.7/posixpath.py", line 68, in join
821 2012-02-01 08:01:59 <splatster> elif path == '' or path.endswith('/'):
822 2012-02-01 08:01:59 <splatster> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'endswith'
823 2012-02-01 08:02:00 <splatster> Any ideas?
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875 2012-02-01 10:58:38 <pentarh> namecoin fundamental design error https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62017.msg725651#msg725651
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881 2012-02-01 11:07:56 <diki> the forum suddenly isn't opening for me...
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886 2012-02-01 11:13:52 <poiuh> ok
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908 2012-02-01 11:51:33 <UukGoblin> so considering coinbase transactions are not prunable (or at least their hashes aren't), is it actually any different whether you store your aux data in coinbase or as a tx output?
909 2012-02-01 11:52:20 <sipa> how do you mean, not prunable?
910 2012-02-01 11:53:04 <UukGoblin> sipa, a verifying node has to remember all coinbase transactions (or at least their hashes) to prohibit double spending in the "identical coinbase" scenario
911 2012-02-01 11:53:26 <sipa> it doesn't have to prohibit that
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915 2012-02-01 11:53:46 <UukGoblin> I believe it's a hard rule
916 2012-02-01 11:53:51 <sipa> it isn't
917 2012-02-01 11:54:25 <sipa> if you create a duplicate coinbase tx, you are stupid
918 2012-02-01 11:55:00 <UukGoblin> stupid or not, other nodes will have to prohibit the second spending of a duplicate txid
919 2012-02-01 11:55:21 <sipa> i don't see how that is different from any other tx?
920 2012-02-01 11:55:21 <UukGoblin> at least in my current understanding
921 2012-02-01 11:55:52 <sipa> for each tx, you remember which txouts are unredeemed
922 2012-02-01 11:56:00 <poiuh> zouba
923 2012-02-01 11:56:05 <sipa> if you encounter a spending of a redeemed one, call it invalid
924 2012-02-01 11:56:14 <sipa> otherwise, mark its inputs redeemed
925 2012-02-01 11:56:46 <UukGoblin> sipa, ok, it's different in this scenario: mine a block X with a coinbase txid 01abcd, spend txid 01abcd to someone, then mine another block Y with the same coinbase 01abcd
926 2012-02-01 11:57:00 <sipa> then you can spend it again?
927 2012-02-01 11:57:05 <UukGoblin> no, you can't
928 2012-02-01 11:57:10 <sipa> why not?
929 2012-02-01 11:57:11 <UukGoblin> it's the same txid
930 2012-02-01 11:57:21 <UukGoblin> nodes will prohibit spending the same txid twice
931 2012-02-01 11:57:21 <sipa> so, it's redeemable again
932 2012-02-01 11:57:33 <UukGoblin> nope it's not
933 2012-02-01 11:57:43 <UukGoblin> you can't redeem the same txid twice
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937 2012-02-01 11:57:56 * sipa checks source
938 2012-02-01 11:58:11 <UukGoblin> we've talked about it earlier with roconnor and gmaxwell
939 2012-02-01 11:59:15 rdponticelli has joined
940 2012-02-01 12:01:16 <sipa> looks to me that a second tx with the same hash will overwrite the previous one
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945 2012-02-01 12:13:21 <UukGoblin> vuln in sudo: http://i.imgur.com/AjceU.png
946 2012-02-01 12:13:46 <upb> ahahahaha, gives that pic a whole new meaning :D
947 2012-02-01 12:14:08 <UukGoblin> sipa, well, I'm not sure, but from what I heard, people who genereated duplicate coinbases weren't able to spend them
948 2012-02-01 12:14:29 <sipa> UukGoblin: hmm, could be
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955 2012-02-01 12:18:21 <UukGoblin> so wouldn't that make the coinbases special and actually a worse place to put extra data in?
956 2012-02-01 12:18:56 <sipa> well, if it is true, coinbases aren't special
957 2012-02-01 12:19:08 <Joric> UukGoblin: mother of god!
958 2012-02-01 12:19:13 <sipa> but it is extremely unlikely to generate a duplicate non-coinbase tx
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961 2012-02-01 12:23:24 <UukGoblin> sipa, I think short of a hash collision, it should be impossible to generate a duplicate non-coinbase tx
962 2012-02-01 12:23:32 <sipa> indeed
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974 2012-02-01 13:04:48 <Moron__> whats a coinbase?
975 2012-02-01 13:06:16 <sipa> Moron__: the first transaction in each block is the one that introduces new coins in the system (the miner's reward)
976 2012-02-01 13:06:22 <sipa> it's called the coinbase
977 2012-02-01 13:06:45 <sipa> it is special as it does not spend anything
978 2012-02-01 13:07:16 <Moron__> oh
979 2012-02-01 13:09:59 <lianj> all coinbase are belongs to the miner
980 2012-02-01 13:10:17 <Moron__> does the genesis block have a coinbase?
981 2012-02-01 13:10:23 <midnightmagic> often, people will also refer to the actual "coinbase" field itself in the generation transaction as a "coinbase" too. You can see an example of a generation txn which shows a coinbase, here: http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/fca294ed69a8cb2be96228e1dcb1d132bc2c941198178d21a8f95f7afb05ad15
982 2012-02-01 13:10:23 <lianj> sure
983 2012-02-01 13:10:36 <sipa> Moron__: it only has a coinbase
984 2012-02-01 13:11:07 <sipa> here is it: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/1/4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b
985 2012-02-01 13:11:26 <midnightmagic> http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f also
986 2012-02-01 13:11:28 <sipa> notice the text in it
987 2012-02-01 13:12:09 <Moron__> thats the genesis block ?
988 2012-02-01 13:12:26 <Moron__> what does n mean?
989 2012-02-01 13:13:15 <sipa> my link shows the coinbase transaction of the genesis block
990 2012-02-01 13:13:20 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
991 2012-02-01 13:13:26 <Moron__> oh ok
992 2012-02-01 13:13:34 <sipa> not sure what n you talk about
993 2012-02-01 13:13:47 <Moron__> "n":4294967295
994 2012-02-01 13:13:56 <Moron__> sory im not too familiar with the blockchain format
995 2012-02-01 13:14:39 <sipa> well, the actual "coinbase" field (which contains some arbitrary miner-specified data) is actually in the same place as the input script
996 2012-02-01 13:15:00 <sipa> so coinbase transactions have actually one "fake" input, which counts as coinbase (it's not interpreted as input)
997 2012-02-01 13:15:29 <sipa> by definition, it must consume "from" txout 000000...:4294967295
998 2012-02-01 13:16:29 <Moron__> oh, so the n is usually for input?
999 2012-02-01 13:17:06 <Moron__> strange
1000 2012-02-01 13:17:57 <Moron__> first time it opened in some wierd bracket format, now its in a html format with graphics
1001 2012-02-01 13:18:24 <Moron__> oh well i think i get theidea
1002 2012-02-01 13:20:54 pierre` has joined
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1004 2012-02-01 13:24:47 <poiuh> coinface mc hargalarg
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1008 2012-02-01 13:31:27 <Moron__> how hard are bitbills/casascius coins to counterfeit or steal the private key from?
1009 2012-02-01 13:32:20 <marf_away> try it
1010 2012-02-01 13:32:34 <marf_away> biggest problem are the holographs
1011 2012-02-01 13:33:39 <UukGoblin> if you can print holograms, I guess it's easy
1012 2012-02-01 13:33:50 <UukGoblin> I'm not sure how hard it is though
1013 2012-02-01 13:37:13 <Moron__> so in theory you could print fakes with just a public key and no valid private key?
1014 2012-02-01 13:37:22 <marf_away> yes
1015 2012-02-01 13:37:38 <marf_away> you can print dollars too
1016 2012-02-01 13:37:39 <marf_away> ;)
1017 2012-02-01 13:37:40 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1018 2012-02-01 13:37:48 <Moron__> yeh but im scared of the secret service
1019 2012-02-01 13:38:01 devrandom has joined
1020 2012-02-01 13:38:07 <marf_away> maybe mr bitbill sends a pitbull after you
1021 2012-02-01 13:38:08 <marf_away> ;D
1022 2012-02-01 13:38:14 <Moron__> :P
1023 2012-02-01 13:39:51 <Moron__> i figure I could make a killing selling them to bitcoin hopefuls at carboot sales aand the like?
1024 2012-02-01 13:40:33 <marf_away> sure
1025 2012-02-01 13:41:13 <marf_away> they are just toys
1026 2012-02-01 13:41:25 <Moron__> :)
1027 2012-02-01 13:41:29 <marf_away> not intended for real use
1028 2012-02-01 13:41:44 <edcba> you can trade mtg cards too
1029 2012-02-01 13:42:09 <edcba> they are toy, doesn't mean they are worthless
1030 2012-02-01 13:42:30 <sipa> a bitbull?
1031 2012-02-01 13:43:20 <marf_away> a bit dog
1032 2012-02-01 13:43:23 <marf_away> big
1033 2012-02-01 13:43:55 <poiuh> "obama caught operating dog fighting ring in white house basement?"
1034 2012-02-01 13:45:55 <edcba> it is not a ring it's a chain !!!
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1042 2012-02-01 14:03:15 <poiuh> heyro
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1050 2012-02-01 14:24:00 <Moron__> heyro
1051 2012-02-01 14:24:02 <Moron__> to you too
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1066 2012-02-01 14:54:44 <gmaxwell> "The libcoin/bitcoind client downloads the entire block chain 3.5 times faster than the bitcoin/bitcoind client. This is less than 90 minutes on a modern laptop!"
1067 2012-02-01 14:54:53 <gmaxwell> It would be nice to know where it got that speedup from.
1068 2012-02-01 14:55:15 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
1069 2012-02-01 14:55:28 <gmaxwell> I see that it has code to disable fsync from libdb... but it's commented out.
1070 2012-02-01 14:55:33 <sipa> i looked at the source briefly-- it is still very recognizable
1071 2012-02-01 14:56:00 <gmaxwell> Likewise (thus the comment on the code to disable fsync).
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1075 2012-02-01 14:59:33 <UukGoblin> what's libcoin/bitcoind? google's being unhelpful again
1076 2012-02-01 14:59:46 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: new library/daemon that was just released
1077 2012-02-01 14:59:51 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: see last post to dev ML
1078 2012-02-01 15:01:18 JRWR has joined
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1080 2012-02-01 15:01:53 <UukGoblin> announcement looks cool...
1081 2012-02-01 15:01:54 <gmaxwell> It's a refactor of the reference bitcoin code.
1082 2012-02-01 15:02:18 <UukGoblin> "See the ponzicoin example for how you define your own chain" heh, fun
1083 2012-02-01 15:03:41 iocor has joined
1084 2012-02-01 15:04:06 <gavinandresen> Nice! Glad somebody did it...
1085 2012-02-01 15:04:33 <UukGoblin> I was secretly thinking about it and someone beat me to it... happened AGAIN ;-]
1086 2012-02-01 15:04:46 <luke-jr> they should probably merge up to 0.5 at least
1087 2012-02-01 15:04:51 <luke-jr> looks like based on 0.4
1088 2012-02-01 15:05:01 <luke-jr> but I guess that explains their first version number
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1091 2012-02-01 15:09:10 <phantomcircuit> bleh how to diff :|
1092 2012-02-01 15:12:25 <Joric> finally cmake
1093 2012-02-01 15:12:41 <Joric> https://github.com/ceptacle/libcoin
1094 2012-02-01 15:15:25 <Joric> went building armory on mac
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1105 2012-02-01 15:41:57 <Turingi> certificate authorities, web of trust, all that is obsolete!
1106 2012-02-01 15:42:19 <sipa> how so?
1107 2012-02-01 15:42:20 <Turingi> with the bitcoin block chain (of arbitrary age), you can get that
1108 2012-02-01 15:42:35 <sipa> bitcoin does not give you trust between arbitrary parties
1109 2012-02-01 15:42:43 JRWR has quit (Disconnected by services)
1110 2012-02-01 15:42:50 <sipa> and certainly no proof of identity
1111 2012-02-01 15:42:51 <Turingi> it's an append-only database, ultra-redundant
1112 2012-02-01 15:42:54 JRWR has joined
1113 2012-02-01 15:43:09 <sipa> it is not append-only
1114 2012-02-01 15:43:21 <Turingi> it is for a chain that's old enough
1115 2012-02-01 15:44:28 <gmaxwell> Turingi: bitcoin is indeed very exciting, but it's easy to get carried away.
1116 2012-02-01 15:46:51 da2ce7 has joined
1117 2012-02-01 15:47:48 <nathan7> exciting things
1118 2012-02-01 15:47:51 <nathan7> what's up, bitcoinverse
1119 2012-02-01 15:48:05 slush has joined
1120 2012-02-01 15:48:47 paul0 has joined
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1124 2012-02-01 15:53:36 <luke-jr> Turingi: perhaps you mean namecoin?
1125 2012-02-01 15:54:03 <Turingi> luke-jr: I don't understand why namecoin has to be a separate system
1126 2012-02-01 15:54:14 copumpkin has joined
1127 2012-02-01 15:54:18 <Turingi> it can all be strapped to the canonical chain
1128 2012-02-01 15:54:24 <sipa> Turingi: because it does not belong in the bitcoin block chain
1129 2012-02-01 15:54:29 <luke-jr> Turingi: because people don't want crap bloating Bitcoin? :p
1130 2012-02-01 15:54:41 <sipa> which is, as you said, ultra-redundant, and costs a ton
1131 2012-02-01 15:55:26 <Turingi> sipa, luke-jr: that may be, but the presence of this killer feature will render it being used like that
1132 2012-02-01 15:55:42 <sipa> i don't see why it is a killer feature
1133 2012-02-01 15:55:46 <helo> (bitcoin's ability to scale as blockchain size grows is arguably its biggest weakness)
1134 2012-02-01 15:55:59 <sipa> there are much more convenient storage systems available
1135 2012-02-01 15:56:08 <Turingi> besides, bitcoin has critical mass, namecoin doesn't
1136 2012-02-01 15:56:35 <Turingi> the worst that happens is some people just destroy their coins in exchange for creating preformatted transactions
1137 2012-02-01 15:56:41 <Turingi> or preformatted keys
1138 2012-02-01 15:56:50 <Turingi> which increases the value of the remaining BTC
1139 2012-02-01 15:57:22 <sipa> at the cost of *everyone* running a full node to keep a copy of it, for eternity
1140 2012-02-01 15:57:32 <Turingi> that will happen anyway
1141 2012-02-01 15:57:51 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1142 2012-02-01 15:58:01 <JRWR> What is the expected file size in 20 years?
1143 2012-02-01 15:58:35 <helo> 1ZB
1144 2012-02-01 15:58:44 <Turingi> all I'm describing would happen with or without special use
1145 2012-02-01 15:58:52 <Turingi> the block chain will grow
1146 2012-02-01 15:58:56 <UukGoblin> JRWR, max possible is 1TB
1147 2012-02-01 15:59:02 <Turingi> at some point it becomes impractical for everyone to keep a copy of it
1148 2012-02-01 15:59:06 <UukGoblin> JRWR, (if you mean the blockchain size)
1149 2012-02-01 15:59:10 <JRWR> yes
1150 2012-02-01 15:59:26 <UukGoblin> that's assuming every single block from now on was full
1151 2012-02-01 15:59:29 <sipa> Turingi: then why would you want to encourage that?
1152 2012-02-01 15:59:29 <JRWR> UukGoblin: does any type of compression help? or is the blockchain just too random for that
1153 2012-02-01 15:59:40 <sipa> the block chain is quite compressible
1154 2012-02-01 15:59:45 <Turingi> sipa: if bitcoin is not resilient against that, it will fail
1155 2012-02-01 16:00:03 <sipa> bitcoin is what its users want it to
1156 2012-02-01 16:00:05 <Turingi> sipa: and it's better if fails faster, else more capital will be poured into it
1157 2012-02-01 16:00:13 <Turingi> but I don't think it would fail
1158 2012-02-01 16:00:26 <sipa> if some users want it to be a storage system, and others want it to be a currency, there is a problem
1159 2012-02-01 16:00:56 <Turingi> sipa: it can be both and perhaps other things too
1160 2012-02-01 16:01:34 <sipa> it may be other things, but i strongly disagree it can be both
1161 2012-02-01 16:02:45 Joric_ has joined
1162 2012-02-01 16:02:57 <Turingi> sipa: do you at least agree that if bitcoin can't survive prepared transactions that it's too vulnerable as a currency?
1163 2012-02-01 16:03:10 <sipa> what are prepared transactions?
1164 2012-02-01 16:03:53 <Turingi> transactions and keys shaped to have a special meaning
1165 2012-02-01 16:03:58 <JRWR> ah
1166 2012-02-01 16:04:12 <sipa> have you read BIP16? :)
1167 2012-02-01 16:04:12 <JRWR> like a storage in the blockchain
1168 2012-02-01 16:04:16 <Turingi> BTC is spent toward a bogus key or transaction
1169 2012-02-01 16:04:34 <Turingi> you can't recover the BTC, but you get to use the block chain as storage
1170 2012-02-01 16:04:36 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1172 2012-02-01 16:05:37 <Turingi> hm... although you don't strictly need prepared transactions
1173 2012-02-01 16:05:54 <sipa> how about using dropbox? :p
1174 2012-02-01 16:05:58 <JRWR> couldn't you just transfer the amount between two IDs that exist and use that as datastorage
1175 2012-02-01 16:06:00 <Turingi> you can pass back and forth a certain ammount of bitcents
1176 2012-02-01 16:06:03 <helo> there's a maximum blocksize, so as that is approached miners will start only mining the transactions with the best fee/size ratio, increasing the cost for people to store data in the blockchain
1177 2012-02-01 16:06:05 <Turingi> and that can convey information
1178 2012-02-01 16:06:25 <Turingi> so you still shape the block chain
1179 2012-02-01 16:06:36 <Turingi> but not spend any BTC (until transaction costs start to matter)
1180 2012-02-01 16:07:01 <Turingi> does that make sense?
1181 2012-02-01 16:07:06 Joric_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1182 2012-02-01 16:08:18 <sipa> i still don't see why you would want to do so, except for proving you can
1183 2012-02-01 16:08:51 <Turingi> sipa: the point is not storage size, but non-repudiation
1184 2012-02-01 16:09:03 <sipa> then put a hash in a coinbase
1185 2012-02-01 16:09:05 <JRWR> I'm surpised that someone hasnt flooded the blockchain yet with a ton of transactions
1186 2012-02-01 16:09:05 <gmaxwell> Turingi: the system already resists bulk data storage fairly successfully through anti-dos rule that require you to apply transaction fees when your activity starts to look spammy.
1187 2012-02-01 16:09:09 <Turingi> sipa: and having a reference that can't be corrupted
1188 2012-02-01 16:09:09 <sipa> via a merkle tree
1189 2012-02-01 16:09:23 <gmaxwell> JRWR: People did that, and the bitcoin community solved it.
1190 2012-02-01 16:09:26 <sipa> Turingi: that adds no data to the chain, and has the same security properties
1191 2012-02-01 16:10:42 <helo> it's pretty expensive to solve a block... i wonder if miners will ever start selling their coinbase space for applications like that
1192 2012-02-01 16:10:56 slush has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1193 2012-02-01 16:11:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: even better, in fact because its more private. No one can tell the data exists until you disclose the connecting hash.
1194 2012-02-01 16:11:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: indeed!
1195 2012-02-01 16:11:52 <gmaxwell> helo: they do, in a fashion. It's how merged mining works. (but the ability of tree commitments are more general than that by far)
1196 2012-02-01 16:12:24 <gmaxwell> helo: though because the amount it can store is ~infinite the proper price for that is pretty low.
1197 2012-02-01 16:13:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: this is why a notary service is on my features listâ to discourage wrongheaded abuses.
1198 2012-02-01 16:13:08 <helo> ~infinite because a hash can represent an arbitrarily large amount of data?
1199 2012-02-01 16:13:19 <Moron__> whats a merkle tree?
1200 2012-02-01 16:13:24 <gmaxwell> helo: Yes, a hash tree.
1201 2012-02-01 16:14:41 <vsrinivas> helo: selling coinbase space would be kinda neat, yea...
1202 2012-02-01 16:15:55 <gmaxwell> Moron__: See wikipedia
1203 2012-02-01 16:16:04 <k9quaint> Moron__: its a google result
1204 2012-02-01 16:16:28 <Joric> wow macosx client is the prettiest
1205 2012-02-01 16:17:33 <gmaxwell> I wrote a halfass spec about how you'd do notary trees connected to coinbase the other day: http://pastebin.com/1fVRZEBk
1206 2012-02-01 16:21:03 <Turingi> helo: just imagine, one hash can represent the entire universe!
1207 2012-02-01 16:21:06 <Turingi> :)
1208 2012-02-01 16:21:15 <Moron__> how Turingi?
1209 2012-02-01 16:21:20 [Tycho] has joined
1210 2012-02-01 16:21:48 <Turingi> helo>~infinite because a hash can represent an arbitrarily large amount of data?
1211 2012-02-01 16:22:01 <Moron__> but is the universe data?
1212 2012-02-01 16:22:05 <sipa> countably infinite amount of data
1213 2012-02-01 16:22:14 <Turingi> it depends
1214 2012-02-01 16:22:19 <sipa> the universe may well not be representable in a countably infinite dataset
1215 2012-02-01 16:22:21 <Turingi> the visible universe is finite
1216 2012-02-01 16:22:31 <Turingi> it may be infinite, but unreachable
1217 2012-02-01 16:22:41 <Turingi> beyong some limit
1218 2012-02-01 16:22:44 <Moron__> also the universe is expanding
1219 2012-02-01 16:22:48 <sipa> what precision does the location of an electron have?
1220 2012-02-01 16:22:49 <Turingi> s/beyong/beyond/
1221 2012-02-01 16:22:53 <Moron__> so it may not be possible to collect the information required
1222 2012-02-01 16:23:01 <sipa> finite? probabilistic? infinite?
1223 2012-02-01 16:23:07 <Moron__> what about black holes et
1224 2012-02-01 16:23:08 <Moron__> etc
1225 2012-02-01 16:23:13 <Turingi> although, things like quantum uncertainty may make hashing problematic
1226 2012-02-01 16:23:46 <JRWR> I always wondered if a collsion could happen on the blockchain, and how would you even fix it, or detect it
1227 2012-02-01 16:23:53 <Turingi> so you could at most take a hash of all possible quantum states in their totality, but not the exact configuration the universe is in :)
1228 2012-02-01 16:23:55 <Moron__> a collision?
1229 2012-02-01 16:24:06 <luke-jr> Turingi: why not use namecoin?
1230 2012-02-01 16:24:17 <Moron__> im hoping someone will hash the internet :P
1231 2012-02-01 16:24:23 <JRWR> collision
1232 2012-02-01 16:24:30 <sipa> Moron__: done; the hash is 42
1233 2012-02-01 16:24:35 <Moron__> :P
1234 2012-02-01 16:24:43 <Moron__> wow is that sha256?
1235 2012-02-01 16:25:15 <Turingi> sha001
1236 2012-02-01 16:25:16 <sipa> yes, modulo some not further explored small integer
1237 2012-02-01 16:25:38 <Moron__> :)
1238 2012-02-01 16:28:01 <JRWR> A good read on the issue: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4014090/is-it-safe-to-ignore-the-possibility-of-sha-collisions-in-practice
1239 2012-02-01 16:28:27 <JRWR> It "could" happen, just very very x 10^100000 hard to do
1240 2012-02-01 16:33:50 <Moron__> the laws of statistics break down where 2^x and x is a very large number
1241 2012-02-01 16:33:58 <Moron__> or a very small number
1242 2012-02-01 16:34:21 <sipa> ehh no
1243 2012-02-01 16:34:38 <sipa> your ability to visualize may, though
1244 2012-02-01 16:35:05 <Moron__> yeh... etc whats the probability of putting a bomb in a bunch of aircraft debris and getting a functioning plane after an explosion?
1245 2012-02-01 16:35:49 <sipa> small enough
1246 2012-02-01 16:36:01 * helo writes 'Moron__' on the document titled 'No Fly List'
1247 2012-02-01 16:36:13 <Moron__> lol
1248 2012-02-01 16:36:33 * edcba adds 'Duck'
1249 2012-02-01 16:36:43 <theorbtwo> Small enough that if you've been doing it once per second since the beginning of the universe, it's less then 50% probable to have happened by now.
1250 2012-02-01 16:37:25 <Moron__> is it theorbtwo? or is the probability in some way attenuated by newtonian physics?
1251 2012-02-01 16:37:38 slush has joined
1252 2012-02-01 16:38:29 <theorbtwo> Well, I suppose it depends on how long you are willing to wait after the explosion.
1253 2012-02-01 16:38:31 <edcba> but when you mean second is that the second relative to the current time or the second like now ?
1254 2012-02-01 16:40:05 <JRWR> but it CAN happen, and what if it does?
1255 2012-02-01 16:40:12 <Moron__> whats the probability of putting an orange in the microwave... turning it on, and getting an apple out?
1256 2012-02-01 16:40:22 helo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1257 2012-02-01 16:41:28 * edcba puts apple iphone working on orange network in microwave...
1258 2012-02-01 16:43:40 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1259 2012-02-01 16:44:59 <Moron__> why do older versions than 0.5.2 harm the network?
1260 2012-02-01 16:45:03 <Moron__> is this an attempt to force p2sh on us?
1261 2012-02-01 16:45:15 <gmaxwell> ...
1262 2012-02-01 16:45:22 iocor has joined
1263 2012-02-01 16:45:48 <gmaxwell> Moron__: Please don't be a bad person. Making that kind of accusation is harmful.
1264 2012-02-01 16:45:57 <gmaxwell> Moron__: it's also stupidâ 0.5.2 doesn't have any p2sh.
1265 2012-02-01 16:46:05 <Moron__> oh sorry
1266 2012-02-01 16:46:11 <Moron__> mind if i ask the reason why an upgrade is needed?
1267 2012-02-01 16:46:24 <gmaxwell> Moron__: No _released_ version of bitcoin has p2sh of any kind.
1268 2012-02-01 16:46:30 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: the announcement in this IRC channel says old versions harm the network....
1269 2012-02-01 16:47:03 <gmaxwell> Moron__: the harms message is related to version prior to 0.3.24
1270 2012-02-01 16:47:10 <luke-jr> Moron__: not necessarily *older than 0.5.2*, but *OLD*
1271 2012-02-01 16:47:11 <gavinandresen> ... which is true, if you're running a really old bitcoin that had the drop-clients-downloading-the-chain bug
1272 2012-02-01 16:47:23 <Moron__> oic
1273 2012-02-01 16:47:32 <gavinandresen> Probably the message should be changed, latest versions don't try to download the chain from those really old versions
1274 2012-02-01 16:47:38 <gmaxwell> Moron__: older versions (still widely used on the network :( ) would randomly hang up on clients when they tried to pull the chain from them.
1275 2012-02-01 16:47:43 <luke-jr> I suggested that a while back
1276 2012-02-01 16:48:03 * k9quaint hums the old bel biv devoe song "Poison"
1277 2012-02-01 16:48:19 <k9quaint> good vid btw gavin
1278 2012-02-01 16:48:40 iocor has quit (Client Quit)
1279 2012-02-01 16:48:55 pusle has joined
1280 2012-02-01 16:48:57 <gmaxwell> Perhaps instead of harms.. *UPGRADING IS GOOD FOR YOUR SECURITY AND THE HEALTH OF THE NETWORK*
1281 2012-02-01 16:49:16 <Moron__> yeh i agree, your version is less negative gmaxwell
1282 2012-02-01 16:49:16 <gmaxwell> (I agree that we can remove or relax it)
1283 2012-02-01 16:49:24 <k9quaint> don't say harms, say poisons :)
1284 2012-02-01 16:49:39 <gmaxwell> Moron__: well the negative absolutely was justified a couple months ago. It matters less now.
1285 2012-02-01 16:49:57 <Moron__> what happened a couple months ago?
1286 2012-02-01 16:50:04 * pusle favors: *UPGRADING MAKES YOUR PENIS GROW!* ^^
1287 2012-02-01 16:50:12 <k9quaint> Moron__: thanksgiving happened
1288 2012-02-01 16:50:36 <luke-jr> it was added around the time of the network fix and then wallet encryption bug
1289 2012-02-01 16:50:38 <luke-jr> IIRC
1290 2012-02-01 16:51:08 <gmaxwell> Moron__: the fix to the chain pulling bugâ at the time is was actually becoming hard to bootstrap a node because you would just get disconnected over and over again.
1291 2012-02-01 16:51:34 <gmaxwell> since then enough people have deployed fixed nodes that it's not a big issue.
1292 2012-02-01 16:51:53 <sipa> etotheipi_: there?
1293 2012-02-01 16:52:03 <Moron__> would it be a good idea to detect versions automatically and refuse to send the blockchain to old versions?
1294 2012-02-01 16:52:46 p0s has joined
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1296 2012-02-01 16:54:56 <gmaxwell> Moron__: no.
1297 2012-02-01 16:55:22 <sipa> that would make the users of those clients vulnerable
1298 2012-02-01 16:55:22 <gmaxwell> Moron__: if we really want to get people's attention the developers can send an alert.
1299 2012-02-01 16:55:37 <k9quaint> can't send me an alert!
1300 2012-02-01 16:55:44 <gmaxwell> except to k9quaint
1301 2012-02-01 16:55:47 <Moron__> bitcoin has an alert feature?
1302 2012-02-01 16:55:52 <edcba> new unicode 6.1 with bitcoin symbol !
1303 2012-02-01 16:55:56 phantomfake has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1304 2012-02-01 16:56:10 * k9quaint emits maniacal laugh
1305 2012-02-01 16:56:25 <gavinandresen> k9quaint: ALERT: This is a test of the k9quaint Emergency Alert System
1306 2012-02-01 16:56:33 <gmaxwell> Moron__: yes.
1307 2012-02-01 16:56:41 <edcba> i'm kidding (i think)
1308 2012-02-01 16:56:57 <luke-jr> edcba: Unicode has had the Bitcoin symbol for a while
1309 2012-02-01 16:57:03 <Joric> etotheipi_: i managed to build and run bitcoin armory on osx
1310 2012-02-01 16:57:11 <luke-jr> Bâ¦
1311 2012-02-01 16:57:12 <k9quaint> gavinandresen: can I get a different font for my alerts?
1312 2012-02-01 16:57:12 <edcba> but there are a lot of animals
1313 2012-02-01 16:57:17 <edcba> no there is a bath symbol
1314 2012-02-01 16:57:26 <edcba> stop spreading lies ! :)
1315 2012-02-01 16:57:44 <luke-jr> edcba: B⦠is the common Bitcoin symbol
1316 2012-02-01 16:58:07 <Moron__> it doesnt work here
1317 2012-02-01 16:58:18 <luke-jr> that's another matter :p
1318 2012-02-01 16:58:19 <Moron__> its like a light b nd a box
1319 2012-02-01 16:58:19 <edcba> ok new money symbols : money bag
1320 2012-02-01 16:58:39 <edcba> glyph may show any currency symbol instead of a dollar sign
1321 2012-02-01 16:58:55 <edcba> else there is currency exchange symbol and heavy dollar sign
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1328 2012-02-01 17:06:06 <edcba> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4b0/index.htm
1329 2012-02-01 17:07:20 <edcba> but it doesn't seem new
1330 2012-02-01 17:07:28 JFK911_ has joined
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1332 2012-02-01 17:08:54 MobiusL has joined
1333 2012-02-01 17:10:35 BlueMatt has joined
1334 2012-02-01 17:16:19 <BlueMatt> ;;seen genjix
1335 2012-02-01 17:16:20 <gribble> genjix was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 19 hours, 20 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <genjix> ok off. cya all.
1336 2012-02-01 17:18:01 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm testing your UPnP patch now.
1337 2012-02-01 17:18:41 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm rewriting the -upnp/-noupnp argument handling a bit, the way it is now the wallet setting always overrides the command-line arg
1338 2012-02-01 17:18:54 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell genjix can you merge https://github.com/genjix/bips/pull/2 ?
1339 2012-02-01 17:18:54 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1340 2012-02-01 17:19:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: i encountered something similar to the error you got in valgrind
1341 2012-02-01 17:19:17 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ihmo it should be the other way around
1342 2012-02-01 17:19:31 <sipa> the CAddrMan error in osx, i mean
1343 2012-02-01 17:19:42 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: well wallet should be set by cli if its there, then it can reset if you change at runtime
1344 2012-02-01 17:19:42 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: wallet settings should override command-line arguments?
1345 2012-02-01 17:19:50 iocor has joined
1346 2012-02-01 17:20:02 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry missed "the way it is now"
1347 2012-02-01 17:20:16 <gavinandresen> no
1348 2012-02-01 17:20:16 ovidiusoft has joined
1349 2012-02-01 17:20:19 <gavinandresen> err np
1350 2012-02-01 17:21:14 * BlueMatt cant read well while trying to focus on a professor at the same time ;)
1351 2012-02-01 17:21:39 <sipa> what is he telling about?
1352 2012-02-01 17:22:17 <BlueMatt> dequeus
1353 2012-02-01 17:22:22 <BlueMatt> so, pretty damn boring
1354 2012-02-01 17:22:37 <Moron__> so im wondering, how many bitcoins does an average bitcoin dev own?
1355 2012-02-01 17:22:46 * BlueMatt has like 10 :)
1356 2012-02-01 17:23:05 <lianj> ^^
1357 2012-02-01 17:23:10 <luke-jr> I have about 400 BTC right now
1358 2012-02-01 17:23:19 <JRWR> I have 0.56
1359 2012-02-01 17:23:31 <BlueMatt> heh
1360 2012-02-01 17:23:49 <JRWR> mostly from testing CPU/GPU miners
1361 2012-02-01 17:24:44 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Always try to be modest, and be proud about it!)
1362 2012-02-01 17:25:02 Joric has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1363 2012-02-01 17:25:09 <sipa> Moron__: i have around 200
1364 2012-02-01 17:25:37 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: re: list of "high prio" bugs, #711. I got the guy's wallet and wasnt able to get anything useful back. afaict there was some corruption somewhere in some of the privkeys and probably the mkey as well. Im gonna assume it is a fluke from fs corruption or something, so unless you want to make ie a second file and store a backup copy of the mkey there, I dont know what could be done about it
1365 2012-02-01 17:26:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ok, sounds like a "close because we cannot reproduce"
1366 2012-02-01 17:26:30 JFK911_ is now known as JFK911
1367 2012-02-01 17:26:35 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yep
1368 2012-02-01 17:29:43 <gmaxwell> perhaps bitcoin should run backupwallet automatically and keep a couple old wallet files in rotation?
1369 2012-02-01 17:30:03 <BlueMatt> (be careful about encryption/passphrase changes though)
1370 2012-02-01 17:30:10 <BlueMatt> but, yea
1371 2012-02-01 17:30:21 <gmaxwell> (we know that lossy disks are out thereâ we can't make the user have a real backup strategy but we can do that.)
1372 2012-02-01 17:30:35 <sipa> not a bad idea, imho
1373 2012-02-01 17:30:52 <gmaxwell> Also saves our own butts should someday we ship a bug that gobbles wallets.
1374 2012-02-01 17:30:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: delete them all on passphrase change, I guess.
1375 2012-02-01 17:31:33 <Moron__> shouldnt the backups be encrypted just incase?
1376 2012-02-01 17:31:38 <sipa> s/password change/CDB::Rewrite/
1377 2012-02-01 17:31:42 <gmaxwell> Moron__: they're encrypted.
1378 2012-02-01 17:31:51 <gmaxwell> well, if the user has encryption the backups will also be encrypted.
1379 2012-02-01 17:32:01 <gmaxwell> Moron__: backup is probably the wrong word to use here.
1380 2012-02-01 17:32:10 <gmaxwell> These aren't backups. They oopswallets.
1381 2012-02-01 17:32:15 <gmaxwell> er they are.
1382 2012-02-01 17:32:33 <gmaxwell> I don't even think we'd have any code to read from them. just code to write them.
1383 2012-02-01 17:33:32 <gavinandresen> I'd really like the oopswallet to be a piece of paper in a safe deposit box.
1384 2012-02-01 17:34:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Have a scripting language that runs on the user? :)
1385 2012-02-01 17:34:11 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1386 2012-02-01 17:34:32 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1387 2012-02-01 17:34:37 BlueMatt_ has joined
1388 2012-02-01 17:34:46 <gmaxwell> In any case, yea "have good backups" is the right answer, but its a little like "don't have a trojan compromised machine" ... we know not all users will follow it. :)
1389 2012-02-01 17:35:36 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't even advertise the oopswallets to the user, and certantly wouldn't call them backups.
1390 2012-02-01 17:35:51 <gavinandresen> We talking GUI users or bitcoind users?
1391 2012-02-01 17:36:15 <gmaxwell> Bothâ but mostly GUI users, of course.
1392 2012-02-01 17:36:38 <gmaxwell> just keep wallet.old0 .. wallet.oldN .. and every time the user goes through 90% of the keypool size, overwrite the oldest one. Delete all of them on resilver, after the resilver is successful.
1393 2012-02-01 17:36:39 Joric has joined
1394 2012-02-01 17:36:57 <gavinandresen> GUI users I agree; we need wallet backup in the GUI. With auto-prompts "at the right time"
1395 2012-02-01 17:37:22 <gmaxwell> This is orthorgonal, though now that you bring it upâ it's a sin we don't have a file->backup in the GUI.
1396 2012-02-01 17:37:46 <sipa> 18:27:24 < gavinandresen> I'd really like the oopswallet to be a piece of paper in a safe deposit box. <-- determinstic wallets? :)
1397 2012-02-01 17:38:04 <gmaxwell> ^ the use there is we only have to nag them to backup onceish.
1398 2012-02-01 17:38:12 <gavinandresen> yes, deterministic wallet is the way to go I think
1399 2012-02-01 17:38:42 <josephcp> IMO the best wallet would be a deterministic wallet whose source of entropy is 20 Diceware words
1400 2012-02-01 17:38:49 <gmaxwell> I still don't think that replaces the oopswallet. :) I shouldn't lose my account data because a cosmic ray interacted with my SATA bus. :)
1401 2012-02-01 17:39:16 <sipa> josephcp: how much entropy in a diceware word?
1402 2012-02-01 17:39:22 <josephcp> 12.9
1403 2012-02-01 17:39:23 <josephcp> bits
1404 2012-02-01 17:39:33 <josephcp> out of 7000something common english words i think?
1405 2012-02-01 17:39:54 Joric has quit (Client Quit)
1406 2012-02-01 17:40:40 <gmaxwell> electrum uses a scheme sort of like thatâ though not the diceware list. It packs 32 bits using 3 words, 12 in total.
1407 2012-02-01 17:40:51 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I just don't like "solves 10% of the problem" solutions, I worry about false sense of security ("Oh, I've got 10 backup wallets on my HD, nothing to worry about!")
1408 2012-02-01 17:41:03 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: You hide it from the user then!
1409 2012-02-01 17:41:08 <BlueMatt_> anyone had a chance to take a good look at the libcoin src?
1410 2012-02-01 17:41:11 BlueMatt_ is now known as BlueMatt
1411 2012-02-01 17:41:42 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: in the case of a determinstic wallet we could probably get a lot of the same robustness by simply writing the data multiple times.
1412 2012-02-01 17:42:17 Joric has joined
1413 2012-02-01 17:42:26 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: sure, my point is writing it multiple times to the same media solves (maybe) 10% of the problems people have
1414 2012-02-01 17:42:44 <gavinandresen> (10% taken from my butt, of course)
1415 2012-02-01 17:43:12 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yes, you shouldn't think of this as at all in any way an alternative for backups. So it's 10% 'for free'. Backups aren't great eitherâ have you never had your backup system fail?
1416 2012-02-01 17:43:25 <josephcp> yeah, the way it's currently written, there's a nagging fear that you're going to run out the wallet keypool
1417 2012-02-01 17:43:34 <gmaxwell> my bitcoin backup system wasn't working for a week because I changed my RPC password and didn't remember I needed to change the backup script. :)
1418 2012-02-01 17:44:06 <gmaxwell> Or yea, you might run past the keypool (though determinstic walltets solve thatâ though they don't solve losing account data and comments)
1419 2012-02-01 17:44:59 <gmaxwell> (I only caught the automated backups failing because I saw the login failures in the log. :( I would have caught it eventually but..)
1420 2012-02-01 17:46:57 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1421 2012-02-01 17:47:48 PK has joined
1422 2012-02-01 17:47:57 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: re: just write backup%n automatically, it is "free" -- nothing is free. "My wallet got stolen because I was very careful to erase the wallet.dat in the bitcoin directory before I sold my laptop, you never told me there were copies there....."
1423 2012-02-01 17:47:58 graingert has joined
1424 2012-02-01 17:48:56 <copumpkin> pigeons just posted http://marc.info/?l=full-disclosure&m=132810929830371&w=2 in -otc
1425 2012-02-01 17:49:02 <copumpkin> have you guys already discussed that?
1426 2012-02-01 17:49:11 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1427 2012-02-01 17:49:14 <copumpkin> I guess it says so :)
1428 2012-02-01 17:50:13 <gavinandresen> yes, fixed for the 0.6 release. Not really interesting in prior releases, because if you have 50% hashing power then you can do nastier things.
1429 2012-02-01 17:52:17 pentarh has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1430 2012-02-01 17:53:00 <Guest44100> gavinandresen: your list for 0.6 looks good
1431 2012-02-01 17:53:32 <gavinandresen> thanks Guest44100 (Wladimir? jgarzik?)
1432 2012-02-01 17:54:12 BlueMatt has joined
1433 2012-02-01 17:54:28 <gavinandresen> ... I think I forgot one thing, though: make -noirc=1 the default
1434 2012-02-01 17:54:45 <gmaxwell> "meh"
1435 2012-02-01 17:54:45 <gavinandresen> (that seems to be the general consensus)
1436 2012-02-01 17:54:51 <Guest44100> argh
1437 2012-02-01 17:54:52 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: /whois Guest44100
1438 2012-02-01 17:54:54 <Guest44100> gavinandresen: jgarzik
1439 2012-02-01 17:55:00 * Guest44100 kicks freenode
1440 2012-02-01 17:55:11 Guest44100 has quit (Changing host)
1441 2012-02-01 17:55:11 Guest44100 has joined
1442 2012-02-01 17:55:15 Guest44100 is now known as jgarzik
1443 2012-02-01 17:55:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: jgarzik
1444 2012-02-01 17:55:21 <BlueMatt> oh
1445 2012-02-01 17:55:23 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I think it's the general long term consensus for sure. Is it the short term one?
1446 2012-02-01 17:56:18 <gavinandresen> Anybody object to turning of IRC bootstrapping by default?
1447 2012-02-01 17:56:40 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes
1448 2012-02-01 17:56:46 <gavinandresen> ok, why?
1449 2012-02-01 17:56:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell wrote up briefly why on the list
1450 2012-02-01 17:57:05 <gmaxwell> s/briefly// sorry
1451 2012-02-01 17:57:11 <BlueMatt> essentially - needs more research
1452 2012-02-01 17:57:19 <BlueMatt> ok, not that brief
1453 2012-02-01 17:57:31 <gmaxwell> I think the most important of the blah blah, is that I've observed noirc nodes taking a long time to get inbounds.
1454 2012-02-01 17:57:52 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: with or without sipa's AddrMan
1455 2012-02-01 17:58:01 <gavinandresen> (and will that make any difference)
1456 2012-02-01 17:58:04 <gmaxwell> Without addrman. Addrman doesn't matter for inbounds locally.
1457 2012-02-01 17:58:08 knotwork has joined
1458 2012-02-01 17:58:08 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
1459 2012-02-01 17:58:08 knotwork has joined
1460 2012-02-01 17:58:15 <gmaxwell> maybe the network with addrman will work better. hard to say for sure.
1461 2012-02-01 17:58:20 <BlueMatt> the question is how long does it take for a dnsseed to find a node if !irc
1462 2012-02-01 17:58:51 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: that answer may change with addrman widely deployed, too though (probably for the better unless there is something we don't understand happening)
1463 2012-02-01 17:59:03 <BlueMatt> yep
1464 2012-02-01 17:59:08 <BlueMatt> anyway, needs more research
1465 2012-02-01 17:59:26 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ok, what do you advise? we'll have a month of 0.6 testing before a final release, would having the early test candidates -noirc=1 be a good or bad idea?
1466 2012-02-01 17:59:30 <sipa> i wonder if we should do something like a little more actively broadcasting an addr when you did a succesful connect to it
1467 2012-02-01 17:59:37 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1468 2012-02-01 18:00:34 devrandom has joined
1469 2012-02-01 18:00:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: maintain a list of recently upgraded (unknown to know) nodes, and priortize advertising them?
1470 2012-02-01 18:02:15 <sipa> possible
1471 2012-02-01 18:03:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: addrman node, noirc, listening and dnsseed: after 5 minutes, 8 outbound, 2 inbound
1472 2012-02-01 18:03:36 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1473 2012-02-01 18:03:51 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1474 2012-02-01 18:04:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: in an IP that isn't in people's addr.dat already?
1475 2012-02-01 18:04:17 BlueMatt has joined
1476 2012-02-01 18:05:23 knotwork has joined
1477 2012-02-01 18:05:35 <sipa> hmm, true, forgot that i left it running past night
1478 2012-02-01 18:08:38 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1479 2012-02-01 18:12:56 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1480 2012-02-01 18:13:20 <gavinandresen> seems to me taking a while for a brand-new IP to get inbound connections might be a feature, not a bug. Should make Sybil attacks more expensive, yes?
1481 2012-02-01 18:14:11 <BlueMatt> s/expensive/easier/
1482 2012-02-01 18:15:08 traviscj has joined
1483 2012-02-01 18:15:32 <BlueMatt> if you know the node you want to attack (which is fresh) it wont be getting many incoming connections, so making your connections to it take a higher % of the node's overall connections is easier
1484 2012-02-01 18:15:59 <BlueMatt> or am I missing something?
1485 2012-02-01 18:17:11 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1486 2012-02-01 18:17:15 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: right, I was thinking of the "Flood the network with lots of new IPs and hope you get lucky with OUTbound connections"
1487 2012-02-01 18:17:29 <BlueMatt> oh, that version
1488 2012-02-01 18:17:36 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ... because it seems to me that's the more interesting attack.
1489 2012-02-01 18:17:52 imsaguy2 is now known as imsaguy3
1490 2012-02-01 18:18:01 <gavinandresen> Filling up the inbound connection slots is only interesting if you also managed to get all 8 outbound.
1491 2012-02-01 18:18:07 imsaguy3 is now known as imsaguy2
1492 2012-02-01 18:18:08 <BlueMatt> flood with new ips, or flood nodes you find with your connections, filling up
1493 2012-02-01 18:18:14 <BlueMatt> yea
1494 2012-02-01 18:18:22 BTC_Bear is now known as imsagal
1495 2012-02-01 18:18:27 imsaguy2 is now known as urmom
1496 2012-02-01 18:18:33 <BlueMatt> ie flood whole network to fill up everyone's inbound slots
1497 2012-02-01 18:18:34 urmom is now known as imsaguy2
1498 2012-02-01 18:18:46 imsagal is now known as BTC_Bear
1499 2012-02-01 18:20:59 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: upnp patch works nicely for me with this diff: https://gist.github.com/1718418
1500 2012-02-01 18:21:00 <BlueMatt> flooding the network with connections so that you fill up everyone else's inbound slots gets harder, but flooding the network with lots of ips you control get easier (afaicr)
1501 2012-02-01 18:21:47 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: that diff doesnt work
1502 2012-02-01 18:21:53 <BlueMatt> iirc, one sec
1503 2012-02-01 18:22:14 <BlueMatt> yea, it makes the help output invalid if !USE_UPNP
1504 2012-02-01 18:22:21 * Eliel is very curious as to why IsInitialBlockDownload even has/had this line of code: return (GetTime() - nLastUpdate < 10 && pindexBest->GetBlockTime() <
1505 2012-02-01 18:22:24 <Eliel> GetTime() - 24 * 60 * 60);
1506 2012-02-01 18:22:37 <gavinandresen> help output?
1507 2012-02-01 18:22:38 <BlueMatt> help output changes based on USE_UPNP
1508 2012-02-01 18:22:43 <BlueMatt> bitcoind --help
1509 2012-02-01 18:23:06 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1510 2012-02-01 18:23:18 <gavinandresen> .... but I didn't change USE_UPNP....
1511 2012-02-01 18:23:19 <sipa> BlueMatt: AddrMan should make it impossible (or at least very hard) to flood the network with lots of ips
1512 2012-02-01 18:23:28 <BlueMatt> oh, that too
1513 2012-02-01 18:23:32 booo has joined
1514 2012-02-01 18:23:37 <BlueMatt> well you just have to get ips in different blocks
1515 2012-02-01 18:23:42 <BlueMatt> (which is hard)
1516 2012-02-01 18:24:05 <sipa> in about 40 different blocks
1517 2012-02-01 18:24:29 <BlueMatt> yea, it just means the attacker needs serious motivation and resources, instead of just a /XX
1518 2012-02-01 18:24:32 <sipa> wait, i need to recalculated that
1519 2012-02-01 18:25:19 <sipa> of course, if you control the entire internet (aka the internelcafe attack), it is trivial to do a Sybil
1520 2012-02-01 18:25:36 b4epoche_ has joined
1521 2012-02-01 18:25:53 <BlueMatt> well yea, any mitm means sybil is impossibly easy
1522 2012-02-01 18:25:58 <Joric> etotheipi_, you have a few bugs in your os detection code ) just use bitcointools code instead
1523 2012-02-01 18:26:05 pingdrive has joined
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1525 2012-02-01 18:26:23 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
1526 2012-02-01 18:26:31 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: the help output is just fine with my patch, look again-- I didn't change the #ifdef, just simplified the logic for setting fUseUPnP
1527 2012-02-01 18:27:02 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: (but thanks for the review / sanity check)
1528 2012-02-01 18:27:26 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea, but it used to be if !USE_UPNP -upnp did nothing (and help reflects that), but with your patch it does do something
1529 2012-02-01 18:27:36 <BlueMatt> so now help is inconsistent with reality
1530 2012-02-01 18:27:55 <BlueMatt> (sorry if Im not being clear)
1531 2012-02-01 18:28:04 <BlueMatt> (or being thick, as usual)
1532 2012-02-01 18:28:44 <gavinandresen> It still does nothing, right? because if !USE_UPNP then fHaveUPnP will be false.....
1533 2012-02-01 18:28:53 <luke-jr> !defined(USE_UPNP) => UPnP not available at all; USE_UPNP=0 => needs -upnp option to enable at runtime; USE_UPNP=1 => enabled unless -noupnp used
1534 2012-02-01 18:28:54 devrandom has joined
1535 2012-02-01 18:28:54 <gribble> Error: "defined(USE_UPNP)" is not a valid command.
1536 2012-02-01 18:29:34 <gavinandresen> I'm REALLY tempted to get rid of the tri-state UPNP stuff, by the way, except I know lots of people have trouble compiling with upnp support....
1537 2012-02-01 18:30:34 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1538 2012-02-01 18:31:02 <ThomasV> hello. I am trying to understand the signmessage function. when is nRecId equal to 2 or 3 ? I seem to get only 0 or 1 when I run tests
1539 2012-02-01 18:31:24 <sipa> ThomasV: it's only 2 or 3 in about 1/2**128 cases
1540 2012-02-01 18:31:52 <ThomasV> sipa: oh that's what I was thinking about.. thanks
1541 2012-02-01 18:31:53 <gavinandresen> that'll be hard to test
1542 2012-02-01 18:32:00 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: its ugly, but as long as we want different defaults for bitcoind/bitcoin-qt, and want USE_UPNP to mean the same thing on both, it has to be there
1543 2012-02-01 18:32:38 <sipa> gavinandresen: yes... kinda trusting the algorithm described in the SECG standard there :)
1544 2012-02-01 18:32:59 <ThomasV> I have implemented verifymessage in Electrum, it works in a way that is consistent with itself, but for some reason it is not compatible with bitcoind... it is frustrating
1545 2012-02-01 18:33:30 <sipa> endianness?
1546 2012-02-01 18:33:46 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: recompiled without UPNP, ran -upnp=1, verified that help is correct and the -upnp=1 does nothing (as expected)
1547 2012-02-01 18:33:58 <ThomasV> sipa: maybe; in the sig?
1548 2012-02-01 18:34:28 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: no, I meant USE_UPNP=0 ie with upnp, but with it off by default
1549 2012-02-01 18:34:28 <BlueMatt> (sorry)
1550 2012-02-01 18:35:00 <sipa> ThomasV: or the hash?
1551 2012-02-01 18:35:06 <sipa> of the message
1552 2012-02-01 18:35:08 <pingdrive> i am not sure what you guys are talking about, but if you are trying to remove upnp support, youa re stupid
1553 2012-02-01 18:35:17 <sipa> pingdrive: no
1554 2012-02-01 18:35:19 <luke-jr> â¦
1555 2012-02-01 18:35:19 <ThomasV> sipa: checking..
1556 2012-02-01 18:35:43 <luke-jr> pingdrive: it's buggy right now, and they're trying to fix and simplify it, I think
1557 2012-02-01 18:36:06 <luke-jr> pingdrive: it's always been possible to compile bitcoin without upnp support if you don't want it
1558 2012-02-01 18:36:09 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ok, checking that case to make sure it does something reasonable....
1559 2012-02-01 18:36:49 <pingdrive> ah okay so they are making sure it work then
1560 2012-02-01 18:36:52 <pingdrive> nvm me
1561 2012-02-01 18:37:43 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yeah, that case works too. Only difference in logic is if you run ./bitcoind -noupnp=0 that's now the same as ./bitcoind -upnp Which is perfectly fine, IMHO
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1571 2012-02-01 18:48:00 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: with your patch, compile with USE_UPNP=0, run bitcoind --help, the only mention of -*upnp is -upnp, however if you dont specify -upnp, -noupnp works
1572 2012-02-01 18:48:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ie help is now inconsistent with reality
1573 2012-02-01 18:49:18 <gavinandresen> ok, fine, there is an undocumented deprecated command line argument "noupnp" in that case....
1574 2012-02-01 18:49:20 larsivi has joined
1575 2012-02-01 18:50:09 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
1576 2012-02-01 18:50:09 <BlueMatt> meh, whatever
1577 2012-02-01 18:50:33 <ThomasV> sipa: BN_bn2bin(sig->r,&vchSig[33-(nBitsR+7)/8]); <-- this looks big_endian
1578 2012-02-01 18:50:51 erle- has joined
1579 2012-02-01 18:51:07 <sipa> ThomasV: it's little endian
1580 2012-02-01 18:51:51 <ThomasV> sipa: are you sure? why does it invoke 33 minus x ?
1581 2012-02-01 18:53:19 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: for flooding, the risk is generally of the form "an attacker can do something more agressive than good nodes to be more visible", one solution is making good nodes more agressive to begin with.
1582 2012-02-01 18:54:12 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: okey doke. I just don't want you to let the perfect become the enemy of the good
1583 2012-02-01 18:54:30 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ... but you know a lot more about networking stuff than I do, which is why I'm just asking
1584 2012-02-01 18:55:45 <gavinandresen> ("the good" being "ISPs don't send emails to bitcoin users telling them they're part of an IRC botnet" ....)
1585 2012-02-01 18:56:39 <sipa> ThomasV: i'm afraid you may have found an inconsistency in signmessage :$
1586 2012-02-01 18:56:59 <ThomasV> sipa: huh?
1587 2012-02-01 18:57:16 iocor has joined
1588 2012-02-01 18:57:44 <ThomasV> sipa: http://www.openssl.org/docs/crypto/BN_bn2bin.html <-- it says big endian there
1589 2012-02-01 18:58:02 <sipa> ThomasV: oh, good!
1590 2012-02-01 18:58:06 <sipa> i must be confused
1591 2012-02-01 18:59:49 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1592 2012-02-01 19:01:42 <ThomasV> well, if I reverse endianity in python, the point I get is not on the curve
1593 2012-02-01 19:02:38 <gmaxwell> Soâ okay, every IP that I have that can run a bitcoin listening node already is. This is frustrating my ability to test incoming connections.
1594 2012-02-01 19:02:43 <gmaxwell> (with noirc)
1595 2012-02-01 19:02:52 pentarh has joined
1596 2012-02-01 19:04:31 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1597 2012-02-01 19:04:39 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I might be able to help with that
1598 2012-02-01 19:05:03 <luke-jr> do you need an IP that isn't already listening presently, or one that has never listened before?
1599 2012-02-01 19:05:09 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: need an IP that has ~never run bitcoin.
1600 2012-02-01 19:05:58 <luke-jr> is "not since before 2010-04" good enough?
1601 2012-02-01 19:06:04 <gmaxwell> sure.
1602 2012-02-01 19:06:06 <luke-jr> or, is there a way to check?
1603 2012-02-01 19:06:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: cant you reset your dhcp from your isp?
1604 2012-02-01 19:06:16 <BlueMatt> ie change your router's mac
1605 2012-02-01 19:06:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: tried without luck.
1606 2012-02-01 19:06:29 <BlueMatt> that sucks
1607 2012-02-01 19:06:30 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: OK, I have a meeting for work ~now, but I'll hook you up after
1608 2012-02-01 19:06:35 <gmaxwell> Great!
1609 2012-02-01 19:07:00 traviscj has joined
1610 2012-02-01 19:07:40 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: just one or multiple bt?
1611 2012-02-01 19:07:42 <luke-jr> btw*
1612 2012-02-01 19:09:25 <gmaxwell> one is okay nowâ
1613 2012-02-01 19:09:59 <gmaxwell> just a simple test.. start with working listening and noirc=1 ... see how fast it gets connections.
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1622 2012-02-01 19:27:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: PM
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1628 2012-02-01 19:44:14 <Joric> managed to build and run Bitcoin Armory on Mac 10.6.7 + xcode 4.2, looks like it's working fine https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56424.msg726357#msg726357
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1646 2012-02-01 20:17:14 XMPPwocky has joined
1647 2012-02-01 20:17:39 <XMPPwocky> Cough cough...
1648 2012-02-01 20:17:42 <XMPPwocky> http://pastebin.com/f7jLLKL1
1649 2012-02-01 20:17:45 <XMPPwocky> anyone see a problem with that
1650 2012-02-01 20:18:07 graingert has joined
1651 2012-02-01 20:18:35 <XMPPwocky> (hint: it's not a buffer underflow)
1652 2012-02-01 20:19:41 <edcba> who has a hardcopy of http://www.underground-book.net/ ?
1653 2012-02-01 20:19:54 <edcba> 20 btc
1654 2012-02-01 20:20:29 phantomfake has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1655 2012-02-01 20:22:32 <edcba> too late i think
1656 2012-02-01 20:23:33 <edcba> definitely too late
1657 2012-02-01 20:24:47 pingdrive has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1658 2012-02-01 20:26:10 <phantomcircuit> XMPPwocky, yes windows
1659 2012-02-01 20:27:04 <XMPPwocky> phantomcircuit: har har
1660 2012-02-01 20:27:13 minimoose has joined
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1662 2012-02-01 20:32:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: do you have enough logging on your dns seed that you can tell me when the first time you saw a node was?
1663 2012-02-01 20:33:03 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1664 2012-02-01 20:33:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: no, i only keep running averages
1665 2012-02-01 20:34:43 <gmaxwell> okay, so I threw up a test node on a VPS from luke 28 minutes ago, with noirc, and have 125 connections
1666 2012-02-01 20:35:02 BlueMatt has joined
1667 2012-02-01 20:35:06 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: how long was it until the 1st?
1668 2012-02-01 20:35:30 <XMPPwocky> but, yeah, if you can control a Windows bitcoin node's environment variables, you can make it buffer overflow
1669 2012-02-01 20:35:44 <XMPPwocky> not exactly much of a threat
1670 2012-02-01 20:35:52 <gmaxwell> which kind of boggles me because I have a nodes with long uptimes _and_ irc that only have 68 connections.
1671 2012-02-01 20:36:03 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: only a few minutes.
1672 2012-02-01 20:36:11 <luke-jr> sounds good
1673 2012-02-01 20:36:32 <gmaxwell> Yes, it sounds okayâ though I'm still confused about the behavior.
1674 2012-02-01 20:36:36 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: if it matters, there's a nearby IP that used to be Eligius-US
1675 2012-02-01 20:36:49 <gmaxwell> It shouldn't if anything that should _reduce_ the connections.
1676 2012-02-01 20:37:05 <sipa> if it used to be, it won't matter
1677 2012-02-01 20:37:18 <sipa> the check for same /16 is only for currently active connections
1678 2012-02-01 20:37:50 <luke-jr> it's also still the free-relay node
1679 2012-02-01 20:37:56 <gmaxwell> yes, just pointing out that anything already connected there (in or out, which is .. not good but whatever) wouldn't even try.
1680 2012-02-01 20:38:25 <luke-jr> I should probably upgrade that actually, I think it's still running unpatched 0.3.21
1681 2012-02-01 20:38:32 <luke-jr> or rather, minimal-patched
1682 2012-02-01 20:39:18 poiuh has joined
1683 2012-02-01 20:39:22 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: whats the current status of the ip testing?
1684 2012-02-01 20:39:43 Xunie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1685 2012-02-01 20:39:58 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the listening testing?
1686 2012-02-01 20:40:13 <gmaxwell> or addrman?
1687 2012-02-01 20:40:21 MobiusL has joined
1688 2012-02-01 20:40:26 <BlueMatt> listening
1689 2012-02-01 20:41:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: luke gave me a VPS (I didn't have any clean IPs), and it got a lot of connections very quicky. Very different behavior than I saw before.
1690 2012-02-01 20:41:23 <BlueMatt> hmmm
1691 2012-02-01 20:41:25 <gmaxwell> Suspiciously quickly in fact.
1692 2012-02-01 20:41:40 <BlueMatt> did you log the ips?
1693 2012-02-01 20:41:51 <luke-jr> they should be in debug.log
1694 2012-02-01 20:41:57 <BlueMatt> or maybe you just got lucky and got put in a dnsseed really quick
1695 2012-02-01 20:41:59 <gmaxwell> I mean.. it has 125 .. (158 total inbounds over its half hour life, from 137 /16s) now. I'm looking at other nodes and not seeing that many even though they have irc and long uptimes.
1696 2012-02-01 20:42:13 <BlueMatt> (my dnsseed will drop you in if you are the last ip it checked, it doesnt care about uptime)
1697 2012-02-01 20:42:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, I have the IPs. it was suspicious enough thats why I was checking distinct networks.
1698 2012-02-01 20:42:52 <gmaxwell> Well, I'd be glad to be wrong hereâ but I'm now wondering why I don't see more connections on other nodes!
1699 2012-02-01 20:42:53 <BlueMatt> pm me the ip, Ill check on my dnsseed when it was first seen
1700 2012-02-01 20:42:59 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: great!
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1702 2012-02-01 20:43:52 <XMPPwocky> hey, where does CNode actually receive messages?
1703 2012-02-01 20:44:17 <XMPPwocky> I see net.h just adds it to a member
1704 2012-02-01 20:45:43 <XMPPwocky> oh- it's in main.cpp
1705 2012-02-01 20:48:35 <gmaxwell> version distribution is interesting.
1706 2012-02-01 20:48:36 <gmaxwell> 1 31900, 1 32002, 1 50000, 2 32300, 2 32400, 6 60000, 8 32100, 10 40100, 11 50001, 18 50100, 24 50200, 78 40000
1707 2012-02-01 20:48:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: so get this
1708 2012-02-01 20:48:53 <Diablo-D3> I may actually be defeating the fucking compiler
1709 2012-02-01 20:49:20 <gmaxwell> defeating is usually when you win.
1710 2012-02-01 20:49:30 <luke-jr> unless you defeat the purpose
1711 2012-02-01 20:49:32 <luke-jr> <.<
1712 2012-02-01 20:49:33 <gmaxwell> somehow I suspect that the compiler defeats you.
1713 2012-02-01 20:50:11 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: some people consider defeating the purpose to be winning, apparently!
1714 2012-02-01 20:50:23 <luke-jr> :p
1715 2012-02-01 20:50:49 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well, I have sdk 2.1 and -v 1
1716 2012-02-01 20:51:01 <Diablo-D3> and its packing most of the ops, all 5 slots
1717 2012-02-01 20:51:08 Clipse has joined
1718 2012-02-01 20:51:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, a decent number of people have objections to bitcoin-qt and stick with bitcoinwx, why, I still dont know
1719 2012-02-01 20:51:46 <luke-jr> too bad none of them are willing to maintain it :/
1720 2012-02-01 20:51:53 <BlueMatt> yea
1721 2012-02-01 20:52:01 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you might find this amusing, a while back a number of people in #litecoin were talking about how much better it's GUI was than bitcoin. :) (they'd not updated their bitcoin to -qt)
1722 2012-02-01 20:52:16 <BlueMatt> heh
1723 2012-02-01 20:52:25 <BlueMatt> yea, most people prefer qt, but a few for some reason hate it
1724 2012-02-01 20:52:41 <BlueMatt> s/yea, most people prefer qt, but a few for some reason hate it//
1725 2012-02-01 20:53:14 <gmaxwell> universal truth.. most of the complaints people have raised sound more or less fixable without making anyone else unhappy. but.. complaining is easier than patches.
1726 2012-02-01 20:53:24 <BlueMatt> yep
1727 2012-02-01 20:54:34 <XMPPwocky> NCURSES MASTER RACE
1728 2012-02-01 20:54:48 <XMPPwocky> or, hell, a text interface
1729 2012-02-01 20:54:59 <gmaxwell> XMPPwocky: I use the cli. I like it a lot. ::shrugs::
1730 2012-02-01 20:55:15 <gavinandresen> (I use the cli all the time, too.... but I'm old)
1731 2012-02-01 20:55:18 <XMPPwocky> You are connected to 42 nodes. You have 24.22314294 BTC in 4 accounts.
1732 2012-02-01 20:55:20 <XMPPwocky> > look
1733 2012-02-01 20:55:26 <gmaxwell> MOOCOIN
1734 2012-02-01 20:55:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: see, if I can get basically every single op that I control packed, -v 1 suddenly becomes fastest on 2.1
1735 2012-02-01 20:55:36 <XMPPwocky> You see 4 accounts: "main",
1736 2012-02-01 20:55:37 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: something that should be mostly impossible
1737 2012-02-01 20:55:54 <XMPPwocky> "invoices", "testing", "drugs"
1738 2012-02-01 20:56:02 <XMPPwocky> > go north
1739 2012-02-01 20:56:08 <XMPPwocky> You are now connected only to Canadian nodes.
1740 2012-02-01 20:56:13 <gmaxwell> haha
1741 2012-02-01 20:56:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well good thing I went to go do this, turned out my dnsseed hadnt updated in like a month...
1742 2012-02-01 20:56:33 <BlueMatt> so that cant be it...
1743 2012-02-01 20:57:09 <gmaxwell> obviously we need a dnsseed dnseed that measures the health of dnsseeds and only includes good ones.
1744 2012-02-01 20:57:20 <BlueMatt> heh
1745 2012-02-01 20:57:36 <BlueMatt> or just people who pay attention and catch when dnsseeds go down (maybe a script...)
1746 2012-02-01 20:57:48 <gmaxwell> down is more obvious than not updating.
1747 2012-02-01 20:58:02 <BlueMatt> well not updating is pretty obvious too
1748 2012-02-01 20:58:21 <BlueMatt> not as much for sipas, but for mine it should update every 2 minutes, period
1749 2012-02-01 20:59:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: mine keeps uptime statistics
1750 2012-02-01 20:59:25 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: let me know when you're done on that VPS btw
1751 2012-02-01 20:59:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: could I run it for a couple hours and see if that 125 goes down at all?
1752 2012-02-01 20:59:48 <BlueMatt> sipa: how can you keep track of your own uptime, if you are down, how would you know it?
1753 2012-02-01 20:59:56 <sipa> ?
1754 2012-02-01 20:59:57 <BlueMatt> or do you mean node uptime?
1755 2012-02-01 21:00:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: sure, just remind me :p
1756 2012-02-01 21:00:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: i mean how much % of the time they are reachable
1757 2012-02-01 21:00:18 <gmaxwell> stupid thing doesn't have the blockchain .. and it's completely full. :( other nodes I run, have the full chain and only 70 connections.
1758 2012-02-01 21:00:24 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, yea
1759 2012-02-01 21:02:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think that nodes should not announce themselves until they're at least out of initial download.
1760 2012-02-01 21:02:26 <gmaxwell> Thoughts?
1761 2012-02-01 21:02:43 <BlueMatt> you mean on irc?
1762 2012-02-01 21:03:01 <gmaxwell> On the network.
1763 2012-02-01 21:03:05 <BlueMatt> or you shouldnt announce peers if they are in initial download?
1764 2012-02-01 21:03:10 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1765 2012-02-01 21:03:53 <Eliel> or perhaps include the info in the announcement?
1766 2012-02-01 21:04:00 <Eliel> that they're still in initial download.
1767 2012-02-01 21:04:08 <gmaxwell> (... apparently we don't have a problem with how long the announcement takes to be effective... and it's silly to have a hundred connections into a node that mostly can't relay transactions even)
1768 2012-02-01 21:04:23 <BlueMatt> Eliel: and if the node falls behind or restarts?
1769 2012-02-01 21:04:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I would agree
1770 2012-02-01 21:04:45 <gmaxwell> And no point in annoucing if the user gives up during the syncup and decides to run a thinclient/webclient instead.
1771 2012-02-01 21:05:33 <gmaxwell> (I'd really like to not announce until we know listening works, but that would take a bit of infrastructure for testing it)
1772 2012-02-01 21:06:35 <gmaxwell> e.g. like a try-connecting-to-me message it could use against peers every few hours while it has no inbound connections.
1773 2012-02-01 21:06:40 <Eliel> BlueMatt: having the info would allow nodes who don't want connections to initial download nodes to avoid the node and would also allow nodes that want to help with the initial download to find nodes needing that.
1774 2012-02-01 21:06:57 <Eliel> unless there is a security reason to hide the info.
1775 2012-02-01 21:07:13 <BlueMatt> I dont think you could do it, flags are |d
1776 2012-02-01 21:07:33 <BlueMatt> not overwritten
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1778 2012-02-01 21:08:41 <BlueMatt> wumpus: when you fixed the amp; thing, how does that effect transifex? tcatm?
1779 2012-02-01 21:09:27 <gmaxwell> Eliel: no one wants connections to initial download nodes.
1780 2012-02-01 21:09:43 <gmaxwell> Eliel: they don't relay (most) transactions either. They aren't useful until they are synced up.
1781 2012-02-01 21:09:43 <Eliel> gmaxwell: how are they supposed to get the initial download then?
1782 2012-02-01 21:09:51 <gmaxwell> Eliel: they connect out.
1783 2012-02-01 21:09:58 <gmaxwell> Eliel: which is better for their own security in any case.
1784 2012-02-01 21:11:06 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: grawity opened issue 791 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/791>
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1788 2012-02-01 21:17:58 <wumpus> BlueMatt: he probably has to do a re-import
1789 2012-02-01 21:18:06 <tcatm> BlueMatt: It'll probably be overwritten the next time I'll fetch updates from transifex
1790 2012-02-01 21:18:14 Ahimoth has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1791 2012-02-01 21:18:46 <wumpus> of the portugese translation file...
1792 2012-02-01 21:18:54 booo has joined
1793 2012-02-01 21:20:22 <BlueMatt> ok, I just wanted to see if there would be an issue there...
1794 2012-02-01 21:20:27 <user__> wumpus, what is the problem with portuguese tra... file?
1795 2012-02-01 21:20:43 <user__> portuguese brazilian
1796 2012-02-01 21:22:35 <tcatm> all changes to translations should be made on transifex
1797 2012-02-01 21:22:44 <gmaxwell> darnit. nodes appear to advertise themselves even when listen=0
1798 2012-02-01 21:23:28 somuchwin has joined
1799 2012-02-01 21:23:36 <BlueMatt> how?
1800 2012-02-01 21:23:42 <BlueMatt> oh, other nodes advertise them
1801 2012-02-01 21:23:47 <gmaxwell> No.
1802 2012-02-01 21:24:00 <gmaxwell> if (!pfrom->fInbound)
1803 2012-02-01 21:24:00 <gmaxwell> {
1804 2012-02-01 21:24:00 <gmaxwell> // Advertise our address
1805 2012-02-01 21:24:00 <gmaxwell> if (addrLocalHost.IsRoutable() && !fUseProxy)
1806 2012-02-01 21:24:49 <BlueMatt> mmm
1807 2012-02-01 21:25:26 <BlueMatt> I was under the impression remote nodes will add you to their addr.dat no matter what if they get a connection to you (and thus relay your ip)
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1809 2012-02-01 21:27:26 <gmaxwell> Maybe? But even if they don'tâ we do it explicitly there.
1810 2012-02-01 21:27:53 <BlueMatt> yea
1811 2012-02-01 21:28:02 <gmaxwell> (I didn't think that was the caseâ if so, I don't think we should do that)
1812 2012-02-01 21:29:20 <BlueMatt> Im probably dreaming, Ive never spent /that/ much time reading that code
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1814 2012-02-01 21:29:58 <gmaxwell> I can't find any case where we do that. You're dreaming.
1815 2012-02-01 21:30:06 <gmaxwell> (whew)
1816 2012-02-01 21:30:25 <BlueMatt> ok good
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1826 2012-02-01 21:54:14 <wumpus> tcatm: it was a quick search/replace job to get rid of the strange symbols before 0.6 release, I think eventually someone that knows portugese should look at it
1827 2012-02-01 21:55:55 <user__> i know portuguese br
1828 2012-02-01 21:56:09 <user__> what is the problem?
1829 2012-02-01 21:57:28 <BlueMatt> wumpus: tcatm has to reimport all the translations before release anyway, as they are likely to have changed
1830 2012-02-01 21:57:36 <BlueMatt> s/tcatm/someone/
1831 2012-02-01 21:58:36 <tcatm> I think anyone can upload new translations to transifex to update them there.
1832 2012-02-01 21:59:13 <tcatm> Transifex will regularly fetch the source from github to make sure new strings will eventually get translated.
1833 2012-02-01 21:59:16 <BlueMatt> tcatm: how do translations get pulled from bitcoin/bitcoin? is it automatic, or do you have to generate them?
1834 2012-02-01 21:59:21 <BlueMatt> oh, nvm
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1836 2012-02-01 22:09:39 <poiuh> :?:?
1837 2012-02-01 22:10:09 ahihi2 has joined
1838 2012-02-01 22:10:17 <BlueMatt> hmm, maybe transifex pulls updated translations from git as well, instead of just updated strings
1839 2012-02-01 22:11:17 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1840 2012-02-01 22:16:02 <tcatm> BlueMatt: it shouldn't...
1841 2012-02-01 22:16:34 <BlueMatt> oh, I was just reading the docs
1842 2012-02-01 22:16:45 <BlueMatt> it looked like it might be a feature that can be enabled
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1867 2012-02-01 22:55:54 <Ferroh> If I understand this correctly,
1868 2012-02-01 22:55:55 <Ferroh> http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2012/Feb/0
1869 2012-02-01 22:56:10 <Ferroh> if you have 51% control, then you can spend any address?
1870 2012-02-01 22:56:22 <Ferroh> That's not ideal :/
1871 2012-02-01 22:56:59 <Ferroh> Oh, but it's fixed in 0.6?
1872 2012-02-01 22:58:58 <poiuh> yeah very hard to sploit, and fixed
1873 2012-02-01 22:59:11 <cjd> only 0.5 nodes will believe you
1874 2012-02-01 22:59:32 <cjd> so people who upgrade quickly and people who don't upgrade quickly are safe
1875 2012-02-01 23:00:02 <Moron__> :/
1876 2012-02-01 23:00:18 <XMPPwocky> you don't really need 51%
1877 2012-02-01 23:00:44 <XMPPwocky> if you can watch, say, MtGox's bitcoin node
1878 2012-02-01 23:00:45 <poiuh> vaginapower
1879 2012-02-01 23:00:47 <cjd> good luck getting someone else to mine that block
1880 2012-02-01 23:01:22 <XMPPwocky> you can kill all its connections to other peers whilst simultaneously repeatedly trying to connect
1881 2012-02-01 23:01:40 <cjd> XMPPwocky: roll anotherone
1882 2012-02-01 23:01:48 <XMPPwocky> you only need to have the node on your blockchain for long enough to withdraw fake coins
1883 2012-02-01 23:02:43 <BlueMatt> anyone know what commit fixed it?
1884 2012-02-01 23:06:09 <gmaxwell> XMPPwocky: er, no, you also have to have the longest chain while _simultaniously_ having a bunch of old timestamps. So you need to build a fork which splits back 24 hours ago.. no biggy.. and have it be longer than the current one. which is ~impossible without much more than 50% hash power.
1885 2012-02-01 23:06:26 <gmaxwell> simultaneously*
1886 2012-02-01 23:06:51 <Eliel> unless I completely misunderstood the code, to exploit that you'd need 51%, sybil attack the target for 24h all the while preventing any blocks from going through and then release your own blocks to make that work.
1887 2012-02-01 23:06:54 <BlueMatt> nvm
1888 2012-02-01 23:07:05 <Eliel> ... oh, that works too
1889 2012-02-01 23:07:08 <XMPPwocky> gmaxwell: ah, I see
1890 2012-02-01 23:07:08 <gmaxwell> Eliel: That would work too.
1891 2012-02-01 23:07:52 <gmaxwell> You could _either_ outrun (>>50%), or isolate for >24 hours and not outrun.
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1904 2012-02-01 23:32:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/792 < thoughts?
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1907 2012-02-01 23:33:29 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gmaxwell opened pull request 792 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/792>
1908 2012-02-01 23:33:38 <gmaxwell> oh, it does work.
1909 2012-02-01 23:34:02 <Moron__> whats a pull rrequest?
1910 2012-02-01 23:34:55 <gmaxwell> Moron__: a request to apply a patch to some repository (in this case the main one)
1911 2012-02-01 23:35:13 <gmaxwell> I've posted a modification to bitcoin, and I want it pulled into the official repository.
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1913 2012-02-01 23:35:29 <gmaxwell> People will look at it, comment, ask me to make revisions, and (hopefully) it will then be merged.
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1918 2012-02-01 23:47:21 <Moron__> whats a push request?
1919 2012-02-01 23:48:00 mod6_ is now known as mod6
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1921 2012-02-01 23:49:15 <gmaxwell> Moron__: er, asking someone via IRC to update their public repository? :)
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1924 2012-02-01 23:49:54 <Moron__> oh
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1930 2012-02-01 23:59:06 <gmaxwell> That node I started earlier for the listening test is down to 106 connections.
1931 2012-02-01 23:59:12 <BlueMatt> wtf?
1932 2012-02-01 23:59:29 <gmaxwell> The peer selection is highly biased towards most recently seen...
1933 2012-02-01 23:59:42 <gmaxwell> So I guess the initial advertisement causes a feeding frenzy.