1 2012-02-10 00:00:05 <BlueMatt> its not _that_ old
2 2012-02-10 00:00:19 <BlueMatt> oh, wait wasnt it added with 0.4?
3 2012-02-10 00:01:04 <BlueMatt> yep, think so https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/7ec552676c66488fe00fb503d02ec4a389a715b7
4 2012-02-10 00:01:29 Joric_ has joined
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6 2012-02-10 00:01:29 Joric_ has joined
7 2012-02-10 00:02:07 <sipa> BlueMatt: i think we should use it for compressed pubkeys
8 2012-02-10 00:02:10 <BlueMatt> what is it with websites being so obsessed with displaying time since something neatly "about an hour ago" "7 months ago", why cant I just get a simple date?
9 2012-02-10 00:03:29 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
10 2012-02-10 00:03:42 <nanotube> because lamers don't understand dates.
11 2012-02-10 00:03:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: probably, just make sure to throw in CCorruptAddress then too
12 2012-02-10 00:03:51 <nanotube> so websites try to dumb it down for them.
13 2012-02-10 00:03:59 JRWR has joined
14 2012-02-10 00:04:08 <BlueMatt> yea...damn web 2.0
15 2012-02-10 00:04:23 <nanotube> though this being github, and targeted presumably at geeky people... there's no reason they should be doing it.
16 2012-02-10 00:04:49 <BlueMatt> github is nice, but it really gets too web2.0ish sometimes
17 2012-02-10 00:04:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: hmm, how does that work again?
18 2012-02-10 00:05:02 <splatster> How are P2Pool coinbases redeemed?
19 2012-02-10 00:05:22 <splatster> Because it seems to just make a bunch of smaller coinbases
20 2012-02-10 00:05:28 <nanotube> BlueMatt: ah, +1 to github - hover mouse over '7 months ago' and tooltip shows date. :)
21 2012-02-10 00:05:41 <sipa> splatster: how do you mean?
22 2012-02-10 00:05:44 <BlueMatt> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L124 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L189
23 2012-02-10 00:05:52 <BlueMatt> (it makes old versions crash)
24 2012-02-10 00:06:04 <splatster> sipa: p2pool coinbases don't seem like they should be valid
25 2012-02-10 00:06:18 <BlueMatt> nanotube: oh, nice but that does emphasize my point (thats so web 2.0 to hide something and put it in a tooltip)
26 2012-02-10 00:06:27 <sipa> splatster: give an example?
27 2012-02-10 00:06:44 <sipa> splatster: the coinbase is a transaction, it can have multiple outputs
28 2012-02-10 00:06:50 <splatster> notice that blockchain.info marks them as strange
29 2012-02-10 00:06:51 <splatster> http://blockchain.info/tx-index/15309148/0e8280a47bc9133f30804e2bddb8d681ecb3853d411f341f5976563ddaf7ab2c?show_adv=true
30 2012-02-10 00:07:09 <nanotube> BlueMatt: well yea, but still better than nothing. :) also, give it a few years, and you'll get used to hovering your mouse on things and expecting informative tooltips :)
31 2012-02-10 00:07:13 copumpkin has joined
32 2012-02-10 00:07:36 <BlueMatt> nanotube: Ill go write a tooltip mod now (replace all text with its tooltip)
33 2012-02-10 00:07:36 <sipa> splatster: oh, their 0th output is indeed special, but has value 0
34 2012-02-10 00:07:40 <sipa> that isn't redeemed
35 2012-02-10 00:07:51 <sipa> though i believe it will change in future versions
36 2012-02-10 00:08:11 <nanotube> BlueMatt: lol
37 2012-02-10 00:08:19 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
38 2012-02-10 00:08:55 Rabbit67890 has joined
39 2012-02-10 00:09:26 splatster has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
40 2012-02-10 00:10:15 theorbtwo has joined
41 2012-02-10 00:12:44 <XMPPwocky> woo, bitkit's all pretty and stuff
42 2012-02-10 00:12:51 <XMPPwocky> Your code has been rated at 10.00/10 (previous run: 10.00/10)
43 2012-02-10 00:13:58 <BlueMatt> ?
44 2012-02-10 00:14:15 <BlueMatt> code prettiness rating?
45 2012-02-10 00:14:49 * BlueMatt bets bitcoind would score somewhere along the lines of 1-2
46 2012-02-10 00:15:07 <BlueMatt> (but thats half because its bitcoind and half because its c++)
47 2012-02-10 00:15:12 <XMPPwocky> BlueMatt: pylint
48 2012-02-10 00:15:48 JRWR has quit (Disconnected by services)
49 2012-02-10 00:15:59 JRWR has joined
50 2012-02-10 00:16:03 <XMPPwocky> now I've just got to write tests
51 2012-02-10 00:16:04 Joric_ has quit ()
52 2012-02-10 00:16:11 graingert has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
53 2012-02-10 00:17:44 <helo> wallets are encrypted with PKE or symmetric encryption?
54 2012-02-10 00:18:05 <XMPPwocky> helo: Wallets are private keys, but encrypted symmetrically
55 2012-02-10 00:18:09 <XMPPwocky> I think AES
56 2012-02-10 00:18:14 <helo> hah! i thought so
57 2012-02-10 00:18:22 <helo> someone in #bitcoin spreading misinformation...
58 2012-02-10 00:18:29 <BlueMatt> whats new?
59 2012-02-10 00:18:54 <XMPPwocky> helo: graingert was confused, I think
60 2012-02-10 00:18:58 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
61 2012-02-10 00:19:10 <XMPPwocky> suspect he meant that wallets were private keys
62 2012-02-10 00:20:26 <sipa> indeed, wallets contain private/public keypair, of which the private part is optionally encrypted using a symmetric key
63 2012-02-10 00:20:28 <helo> it kind of made sense, as using PKE for wallet encryption would allow new addresses to be encrypted without the wallet being unlocked
64 2012-02-10 00:20:56 <sipa> helo: it would also allow introducing your own address in someone's keypool
65 2012-02-10 00:21:04 <sipa> if you have write access to the file
66 2012-02-10 00:21:05 <helo> yeah... :/
67 2012-02-10 00:21:37 <sipa> though determinstic wallets may allow adding keys to the wallet without unlocking it
68 2012-02-10 00:21:44 <sipa> somewhere in the future
69 2012-02-10 00:22:25 <XMPPwocky> sipa: ... that's such a terrible idea
70 2012-02-10 00:22:44 <XMPPwocky> add my key to your wallet
71 2012-02-10 00:23:07 <sipa> ?
72 2012-02-10 00:23:12 <XMPPwocky> well
73 2012-02-10 00:23:20 h4ckm3th32nd has joined
74 2012-02-10 00:23:26 <XMPPwocky> if it was tagged as, say, "do not receive on"
75 2012-02-10 00:23:43 <makomk> Deterministic wallets allow adding keys to the wallet whose private key is only held by the wallet owner without unlocking it.
76 2012-02-10 00:23:59 <XMPPwocky> oh, I see
77 2012-02-10 00:24:12 <XMPPwocky> just generating the next key
78 2012-02-10 00:24:20 <makomk> Yeah, basically.
79 2012-02-10 00:24:21 <XMPPwocky> with funky EC math
80 2012-02-10 00:25:42 h4ckm3th32nd has quit (Client Quit)
81 2012-02-10 00:25:58 h4ckm3th32nd has joined
82 2012-02-10 00:26:45 h4ckm3th32nd has quit (Client Quit)
83 2012-02-10 00:27:08 h4ckm3th32nd has joined
84 2012-02-10 00:27:42 h4ckm3th33rd has joined
85 2012-02-10 00:28:06 denisx has joined
86 2012-02-10 00:28:22 <denisx> what are the actual news on butterflylabs?
87 2012-02-10 00:28:25 h4ckm3th33rd has quit (Client Quit)
88 2012-02-10 00:28:39 <sipa> BlueMatt: any idea why StopNode never ever checked whether ThreadAddConnections was running?
89 2012-02-10 00:28:52 <sipa> it's been that way since at least v0.1.5
90 2012-02-10 00:29:15 <BlueMatt> odd, but i have nfc
91 2012-02-10 00:29:23 <BlueMatt> Id guess it just doesnt do anything that needs to quit
92 2012-02-10 00:29:24 <BlueMatt> ?
93 2012-02-10 00:29:48 h4ckm3th33rd has joined
94 2012-02-10 00:30:01 <BlueMatt> h4ckm3th32nd: stop quit spaming
95 2012-02-10 00:30:18 <BlueMatt> h4ckm3th33rd: stop quit spaming
96 2012-02-10 00:31:16 <XMPPwocky> denisx: hmm
97 2012-02-10 00:31:20 <h4ckm3th33rd> sorry, I was trying to get it to stop autoconnecting but xchat kept losing my configuration, won't happen again
98 2012-02-10 00:31:38 h4ckm3th32nd has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
99 2012-02-10 00:31:41 <XMPPwocky> a quick look at the site shows that all their images
100 2012-02-10 00:31:54 <XMPPwocky> are created in Photoshop CS5
101 2012-02-10 00:32:00 <XMPPwocky> and derived from themselve
102 2012-02-10 00:32:16 <BlueMatt> h4ckm3th33rd: you're good
103 2012-02-10 00:32:33 <sipa> which site?
104 2012-02-10 00:32:42 <XMPPwocky> sipa: butterflylabs
105 2012-02-10 00:32:49 <helo> that means they were edited in photoshop to some extent, which is probably normal even for "real" images
106 2012-02-10 00:32:50 <sipa> ah, right
107 2012-02-10 00:32:58 <XMPPwocky> helo: but they're derived from themselves
108 2012-02-10 00:33:04 <BlueMatt> wow, blockchain.info apparently has multi-sig accounts already
109 2012-02-10 00:33:10 <helo> oh, i don't know what that means
110 2012-02-10 00:33:16 <XMPPwocky> http://regex.info/exif.cgi?dummy=on&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbutterflylabs.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F11%2FBFL-Single_Enclosure.png
111 2012-02-10 00:33:51 h4ckm3th33rd has quit (Client Quit)
112 2012-02-10 00:37:03 <XMPPwocky> the address
113 2012-02-10 00:37:35 <XMPPwocky> is 25 East 12th street Kansas City MO
114 2012-02-10 00:37:36 <XMPPwocky> http://www.oldtownloftskc.com/floorplan/chambersfp.html
115 2012-02-10 00:37:52 <XMPPwocky> does that look like a business to you?
116 2012-02-10 00:38:29 smtmnyz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
117 2012-02-10 00:38:33 smtmnyz has joined
118 2012-02-10 00:39:45 <XMPPwocky> http://www.butterflylabs.com/november-production-update/
119 2012-02-10 00:40:43 forrestv has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
120 2012-02-10 00:41:50 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
121 2012-02-10 00:42:23 <Idiot___> Rabbit67890 lol
122 2012-02-10 00:42:37 <Rabbit67890> /ignore Idiot___
123 2012-02-10 00:42:54 <Rabbit67890> agh, i don't have a ignore command
124 2012-02-10 00:42:55 <BlueMatt> XMPPwocky: wait, so has bfl been shipping the things or not?
125 2012-02-10 00:42:56 <Idiot___> lol
126 2012-02-10 00:43:01 <Idiot___> dont be ignorant
127 2012-02-10 00:43:08 <XMPPwocky> BlueMatt: I don't see anyone who's gotten theirs
128 2012-02-10 00:43:25 <BlueMatt> mmm
129 2012-02-10 00:43:59 <Idiot___> Rabbit67890: what irc client do you use?
130 2012-02-10 00:44:04 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
131 2012-02-10 00:44:58 <XMPPwocky> okay
132 2012-02-10 00:45:03 <XMPPwocky> http://regex.info/exif.cgi?dummy=on&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbutterflylabs.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F11%2FIMG_1815.jpg
133 2012-02-10 00:45:09 <XMPPwocky> /that/ is suspicious.
134 2012-02-10 00:45:18 <XMPPwocky> it has IPTC data.
135 2012-02-10 00:45:34 <XMPPwocky> almost nobody uses that outside of 2 groups:
136 2012-02-10 00:45:39 <XMPPwocky> 1. the media
137 2012-02-10 00:45:43 <XMPPwocky> 2. stock photo agencies
138 2012-02-10 00:45:53 SomeoneWeirdzzzz is now known as SomeoneWeird
139 2012-02-10 00:46:26 <Idiot___> have you ignored me?
140 2012-02-10 00:46:31 <Idiot___> why does everyone ignore me :(
141 2012-02-10 00:46:36 <Idiot___> that shouldnt be allowed :(
142 2012-02-10 00:46:43 <BlueMatt> because your name is Idiot___ and you act like one
143 2012-02-10 00:46:57 <Idiot___> isnt that a bit discrimanatory?
144 2012-02-10 00:47:03 <BlueMatt> no
145 2012-02-10 00:47:23 <BlueMatt> XMPPwocky: well we'll just have to wait and see if they ever come through
146 2012-02-10 00:47:25 stalled has joined
147 2012-02-10 00:47:27 <phantomcircuit> XMPPwocky, pretty sure that's just a checksum
148 2012-02-10 00:47:35 <Idiot___> if i was asian or blind and people ignored me, wouldnt that be wrong
149 2012-02-10 00:47:42 <sipa> Idiot___: no
150 2012-02-10 00:47:59 <sipa> it would be wrong if they ignored *because* you were asian or blind though
151 2012-02-10 00:48:06 Idiot___ has joined
152 2012-02-10 00:48:09 <sipa> it would be wrong if they ignored *because* you were asian or blind though
153 2012-02-10 00:48:09 <Idiot___> :(
154 2012-02-10 00:48:09 <BGL> XMP: what are you saying? grandma works for al-qaida?
155 2012-02-10 00:48:21 <Idiot___> what did i do?
156 2012-02-10 00:48:32 dr_win has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
157 2012-02-10 00:48:39 <BlueMatt> being an Idiot___ and waaay off topic
158 2012-02-10 00:48:45 <Idiot___> oh
159 2012-02-10 00:48:49 <Idiot___> whats this channel about again?
160 2012-02-10 00:48:52 <BlueMatt> ...
161 2012-02-10 00:48:54 <Rabbit67890> ...
162 2012-02-10 00:49:02 <Rabbit67890> its development and general talk.....
163 2012-02-10 00:49:06 <XMPPwocky> Garr
164 2012-02-10 00:49:10 <XMPPwocky> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63308.0;topicseen
165 2012-02-10 00:49:15 <denisx> what about this? http://pastebin.com/UPxtfz6v
166 2012-02-10 00:49:23 <XMPPwocky> this person gets to post in the main forums, and I don't >:
167 2012-02-10 00:50:05 <BlueMatt> denisx: so in other words luke-jr has a bfl test unit?
168 2012-02-10 00:50:23 <midnightmagic> Is anyone here aware of current, successful use of coderr's coinselect replacement?
169 2012-02-10 00:50:57 <denisx> BlueMatt: I don't know if it is for real
170 2012-02-10 00:51:05 <BlueMatt> well ask luke-jr
171 2012-02-10 00:51:26 <BlueMatt> XMPPwocky: yea, thats a bit odd... http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/address/mtoKs9V381UAhUia3d7Vb9GNak8Qvmcsme
172 2012-02-10 00:51:29 <BlueMatt> anyone get that?
173 2012-02-10 00:51:33 dr_win has joined
174 2012-02-10 00:51:46 <XMPPwocky> BlueMatt: duh
175 2012-02-10 00:52:16 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: hm. I should audit that code to see if its responsible for the wonkey fees.
176 2012-02-10 00:52:18 <BlueMatt> same input, dont see why bbe got it
177 2012-02-10 00:52:21 <sipa> BlueMatt: apparently generations are not interpreted as receives there
178 2012-02-10 00:52:24 <XMPPwocky> yeah
179 2012-02-10 00:52:27 <BlueMatt> mmm
180 2012-02-10 00:52:41 <sipa> and in fact not counted at all
181 2012-02-10 00:52:50 <BlueMatt> heh, oh ok
182 2012-02-10 00:53:02 <sipa> wait, they are
183 2012-02-10 00:53:51 <sipa> this is a coinbase double spend
184 2012-02-10 00:53:59 <BlueMatt> yea
185 2012-02-10 00:53:59 <XMPPwocky> ah
186 2012-02-10 00:54:26 <BlueMatt> nvm, blockchain.info apparently doesnt have multisig support
187 2012-02-10 00:54:29 <BlueMatt> or atleast not that I see
188 2012-02-10 00:54:40 <BlueMatt> well it does, but only to send
189 2012-02-10 00:55:16 <BlueMatt> well maybe it does, but not bip16 in any case
190 2012-02-10 00:56:17 OneFixt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
191 2012-02-10 00:56:30 RedEmerald has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
192 2012-02-10 00:57:29 Joric has joined
193 2012-02-10 00:57:32 <midnightmagic> i think it's not really cool to consume all those open bitcoind slots that blockchain.info is doing. is there a good reason not to firewall them?
194 2012-02-10 00:58:01 <BlueMatt> nope
195 2012-02-10 00:58:27 <BlueMatt> if they know an ip is just an ip and nothing more, they really should drop the connection
196 2012-02-10 00:58:55 <midnightmagic> I don't understand what you're saying there: when is an IP not an IP?
197 2012-02-10 00:59:08 <BlueMatt> they identify ips as pools/etc
198 2012-02-10 00:59:33 <BlueMatt> or, I think they do
199 2012-02-10 00:59:36 <BlueMatt> (they appear to)
200 2012-02-10 01:00:23 RedEmerald has joined
201 2012-02-10 01:01:17 b4epoche has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
202 2012-02-10 01:01:29 b4epoche has joined
203 2012-02-10 01:01:33 cryptoxchange has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
204 2012-02-10 01:02:24 <BlueMatt> if only bit-pay looked more legit
205 2012-02-10 01:02:36 <BlueMatt> it could become _the_ way to pay with bitcoin for merchants
206 2012-02-10 01:02:45 <BlueMatt> (and give bitcoin a huge bump)
207 2012-02-10 01:03:26 cryptoxchange has joined
208 2012-02-10 01:07:23 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i suspect they're fairly legit, but have no idea what the fuck they're doing
209 2012-02-10 01:07:37 <BlueMatt> i wouldnt say that, I have no idea
210 2012-02-10 01:07:48 <BlueMatt> they look legit, nfc if they know what they are doing
211 2012-02-10 01:07:52 <BlueMatt> but they need a new designer
212 2012-02-10 01:08:00 <BlueMatt> (afaict they even had a booth at ces)
213 2012-02-10 01:08:12 OneFixt has joined
214 2012-02-10 01:08:17 <phantomcircuit> i looked into them a bit
215 2012-02-10 01:08:27 <phantomcircuit> everything about them screams legit
216 2012-02-10 01:08:36 <BlueMatt> nice
217 2012-02-10 01:08:47 <BlueMatt> what gave you the impression they didnt know what they were doing?
218 2012-02-10 01:08:56 <phantomcircuit> they are however doing something that i believe is regulated
219 2012-02-10 01:08:59 smoothie has quit (Quit: changing servers)
220 2012-02-10 01:09:01 <phantomcircuit> but quite possibly isn't
221 2012-02-10 01:09:18 RedEmerald has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
222 2012-02-10 01:09:19 smoothie has joined
223 2012-02-10 01:09:20 <BlueMatt> ???
224 2012-02-10 01:09:24 cryptoxchange has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
225 2012-02-10 01:09:25 sgornick has joined
226 2012-02-10 01:09:38 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i dont see any indication of whether they have figured out the regulatory compliant stuff for accepting payments on behalf of someone else in the us
227 2012-02-10 01:09:39 <BlueMatt> so they are legit, but not following regulations, or so you think?
228 2012-02-10 01:09:46 <BlueMatt> mmm
229 2012-02-10 01:09:55 <BlueMatt> yea, I was looking for that too
230 2012-02-10 01:10:09 <phantomcircuit> which is actually not that surprising since the rules are hilariously convoluted
231 2012-02-10 01:10:23 RedEmerald has joined
232 2012-02-10 01:10:37 <BlueMatt> the "No hassle of PCI Compliance" quote on their site looks sketch considering they dont bother to push their own compliance
233 2012-02-10 01:10:43 <phantomcircuit> afaikt bitcoins do not qualify as a security commodity or currency and as such nobody dealing in them qualifies as a financial institution
234 2012-02-10 01:10:56 cryptoxchange has joined
235 2012-02-10 01:11:03 <phantomcircuit> meh PCI compliance is a nuisance and 100% worthless
236 2012-02-10 01:11:04 <BlueMatt> so in other words, just have to wait for them to get sued
237 2012-02-10 01:11:17 <BlueMatt> yes it is, but its one of those compliance things that you have to do
238 2012-02-10 01:11:27 <phantomcircuit> unfortunately yeah i suspect the only way to figure out for sure is for someone to get sued
239 2012-02-10 01:11:52 <BlueMatt> even then it wont be for sure until it hits federal appellate court level
240 2012-02-10 01:11:56 <phantomcircuit> PCI compliance is a private agreement between you cand visa or mastercard
241 2012-02-10 01:11:59 <phantomcircuit> it is not the law
242 2012-02-10 01:12:04 <BlueMatt> (unless the supreme court picks up a bitcoin case, which I doubt)
243 2012-02-10 01:12:12 <midnightmagic> It is not worthless, because it is required.
244 2012-02-10 01:12:15 <phantomcircuit> s/cand/and/
245 2012-02-10 01:12:36 <BlueMatt> yea, its not the law, but anyone who wants to be a payment processor better damn well be accepting ccs in addition to bitcoin
246 2012-02-10 01:12:39 <BlueMatt> and that means pci
247 2012-02-10 01:12:40 <phantomcircuit> i seriously doubt even PCI DSS compliance has ever prevented any theft
248 2012-02-10 01:13:02 <BlueMatt> Im sure it has, but usually it doesnt
249 2012-02-10 01:13:11 <midnightmagic> Citation needed.
250 2012-02-10 01:13:19 <phantomcircuit> ok maybe that was hyperbole
251 2012-02-10 01:13:22 <phantomcircuit> but still
252 2012-02-10 01:13:22 <BlueMatt> (because companies that are so up tight about pci to give a shit about it, dont have any actual security just do pci)
253 2012-02-10 01:14:45 <Idiot___> pci?
254 2012-02-10 01:15:58 <phantomcircuit> Idiot___, google
255 2012-02-10 01:16:18 <Idiot___> google?
256 2012-02-10 01:16:32 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, can we just ban him
257 2012-02-10 01:16:35 <phantomcircuit> this is ridiculous
258 2012-02-10 01:17:04 <Idiot___> is it cos iz black?
259 2012-02-10 01:17:22 <Joric> yes
260 2012-02-10 01:17:27 <Idiot___> :(
261 2012-02-10 01:17:30 <phantomcircuit> i knew someone would say yes
262 2012-02-10 01:18:10 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
263 2012-02-10 01:18:31 copumpkin has joined
264 2012-02-10 01:19:31 <cjd> hasn't everyone switched to pci-express by now?
265 2012-02-10 01:19:40 <Idiot___> thats what i thought cjd
266 2012-02-10 01:19:54 <Idiot___> or the even better one agp
267 2012-02-10 01:21:55 <phantomcircuit> cjd, dont feed the trolls
268 2012-02-10 01:22:27 <Joric> Idiot___, payment card industry
269 2012-02-10 01:22:51 <Idiot___> Joric, no thank you
270 2012-02-10 01:32:35 cryptoxchange has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
271 2012-02-10 01:34:59 Joric has quit ()
272 2012-02-10 01:35:26 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and I'm guessing you'll need to rescan if you received anything on a compressed pubkey with the old client?
273 2012-02-10 01:36:29 <sipa> luke-jr: won't work
274 2012-02-10 01:36:50 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
275 2012-02-10 01:36:53 <sipa> you just have two wallets really... old clients will use the non-compressed keys, new clients will use the compressed ones
276 2012-02-10 01:36:58 denisx has joined
277 2012-02-10 01:37:14 <sipa> with a shared history
278 2012-02-10 01:37:50 <helo> how are keys compressed? i thought they were essentially random
279 2012-02-10 01:37:56 agricocb has joined
280 2012-02-10 01:38:06 * BlueMatt prefers adding a CCorruptAddress if you compress your pubkeys
281 2012-02-10 01:38:10 <BlueMatt> that way old clients will just die
282 2012-02-10 01:38:55 <sipa> helo: public keys are points on an EC curve, given by X and Y coordinates
283 2012-02-10 01:39:11 <sipa> helo: they can be compressed by only storing the X coordinate, and calculating Y from the curve equation
284 2012-02-10 01:39:18 <cjd> s/die/get sybiled/
285 2012-02-10 01:39:28 <helo> hmmmm *wikis*
286 2012-02-10 01:39:32 <sipa> cjd: no, die
287 2012-02-10 01:41:03 <Idiot___> oih
288 2012-02-10 01:41:10 <Idiot___> is the private key like the Z coordinate?
289 2012-02-10 01:41:22 <sipa> no
290 2012-02-10 01:41:47 <sipa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography
291 2012-02-10 01:42:37 denisx_ has joined
292 2012-02-10 01:43:33 <sipa> Idiot___: in very short: EC defines a "multiplication" between numbers and points, and there is one special point determined in advance, G; a private key is a number x, and x*G is the public key
293 2012-02-10 01:43:46 <sipa> and there is no fast way to compute the division of two points
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296 2012-02-10 01:45:01 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
297 2012-02-10 01:45:01 denisx_ is now known as denisx
298 2012-02-10 01:50:29 smickles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
299 2012-02-10 01:51:00 <Idiot___> oh thx sipa
300 2012-02-10 01:51:23 <Idiot___> how do you get enough points on the curve to give you 2^256 keys tho?
301 2012-02-10 01:51:44 <sipa> because there are 2^256 points on the curve
302 2012-02-10 01:51:49 <phantomcircuit> you use a big fucking number for the x/y
303 2012-02-10 01:52:20 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
304 2012-02-10 01:54:20 num1 has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
305 2012-02-10 01:54:44 smickles has joined
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307 2012-02-10 01:59:37 <helo> there are some cool youtube videos about ecc
308 2012-02-10 02:00:24 <Idiot___> i donno it all seems above my skill level
309 2012-02-10 02:00:30 <Idiot___> i find it difficult multiplying normal numbers
310 2012-02-10 02:00:35 <Diablo-D3> cracking ecc: slightly harder than landing a man on the moon, but only slightly
311 2012-02-10 02:01:27 <BlueMatt> so its only slightly not doable with years-old technology
312 2012-02-10 02:01:49 * Diablo-D3 asks his ti89 to send him to the moon
313 2012-02-10 02:01:51 <sipa> i doubt spending all money and man-hours on ECC cracking that were spent on putting a man on the moon would suffice :)
314 2012-02-10 02:01:53 * Diablo-D3 is dissapointed
315 2012-02-10 02:03:14 __joe has joined
316 2012-02-10 02:03:16 <riush> b
317 2012-02-10 02:03:22 <BlueMatt> c
318 2012-02-10 02:03:27 <riush> oops :)
319 2012-02-10 02:04:33 <sipa> boops?
320 2012-02-10 02:04:42 <BlueMatt> coops
321 2012-02-10 02:05:11 <Idiot___> why are eliptic curves so hard to go from private key to public key?
322 2012-02-10 02:05:18 <Idiot___> cant you just use a bit of sketching paper
323 2012-02-10 02:05:30 <Idiot___> and flip it over, then figure it out that way
324 2012-02-10 02:05:44 <BlueMatt> ...
325 2012-02-10 02:05:51 <BlueMatt> ok, thats really getting old
326 2012-02-10 02:06:13 <sipa> Idiot___: they're not the kind of curves you can draw on paper
327 2012-02-10 02:06:17 <sipa> it's all just abstract numbers
328 2012-02-10 02:06:31 Rabbit67890 has joined
329 2012-02-10 02:06:36 <sipa> and there is no division operator, so you can't go back to the number G was multiplied with
330 2012-02-10 02:06:52 <Idiot___> oh
331 2012-02-10 02:06:56 <Diablo-D3> says who
332 2012-02-10 02:06:56 <Idiot___> hey rabbito
333 2012-02-10 02:07:06 * Diablo-D3 pulls out a sword
334 2012-02-10 02:07:22 <Diablo-D3> it slices, it dices, it had sex with your mother last night
335 2012-02-10 02:08:15 sacarlson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
336 2012-02-10 02:08:25 <sipa> Diablo-D3: please
337 2012-02-10 02:08:45 <Diablo-D3> dude, Im taking a much needed break
338 2012-02-10 02:09:01 <Diablo-D3> I have enlisted perl to help me finish writing this new kernel faster
339 2012-02-10 02:09:31 denisx_ has joined
340 2012-02-10 02:09:48 denisx_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
341 2012-02-10 02:09:55 denisx_ has joined
342 2012-02-10 02:12:41 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
343 2012-02-10 02:12:41 denisx_ is now known as denisx
344 2012-02-10 02:13:27 Kez_Maefele has joined
345 2012-02-10 02:15:11 NxTitle has joined
346 2012-02-10 02:15:45 <NxTitle> hmm... I should really change my ident from root so SuprTiggr stops barking at me
347 2012-02-10 02:17:35 marf_away has joined
348 2012-02-10 02:17:43 <nanotube> you should bark back. :)
349 2012-02-10 02:20:27 <BlueMatt> damn, I only just barely used 2g of data last month, I need to step it up
350 2012-02-10 02:20:34 <BlueMatt> moar tethering!!!!
351 2012-02-10 02:20:45 <sipa> 2g mobile data?
352 2012-02-10 02:20:55 <BlueMatt> 3g+4g
353 2012-02-10 02:21:09 <sipa> 2 GiB i mean
354 2012-02-10 02:21:14 <BlueMatt> oh, yea
355 2012-02-10 02:21:28 <BlueMatt> In past months Ive used between 4 and 6 :)
356 2012-02-10 02:21:38 <sipa> how do you do that? i barely get to 500 MiB (and i'm allowed to use 2 GiB)
357 2012-02-10 02:21:47 <BlueMatt> sprint unlimited 4g :)
358 2012-02-10 02:22:02 <BlueMatt> nfc where all the data comes from, but I dont care
359 2012-02-10 02:22:23 <cjd> maybe tv channels which now gone?
360 2012-02-10 02:22:30 <BlueMatt> ?
361 2012-02-10 02:22:59 <cjd> parts of the uhf band which they gutted when they switched to dtv
362 2012-02-10 02:23:13 <BlueMatt> how would that effect my bw usage?
363 2012-02-10 02:23:31 <cjd> they would have lots of available/cheap b/w
364 2012-02-10 02:23:35 <BlueMatt> also, is anyone actually using those bands yet?
365 2012-02-10 02:23:44 * cjd isn't sure
366 2012-02-10 02:24:00 <cjd> auction is done do I kind of assumed so
367 2012-02-10 02:24:03 <BlueMatt> isnt that the one where google got the fcc to require them to be used for "open" things?
368 2012-02-10 02:24:20 <cjd> Big G lost that battle IIRC
369 2012-02-10 02:24:41 <BlueMatt> iirc they never wanted to win (or so most people think) they just wanted restrictions on whoever won
370 2012-02-10 02:24:54 <BlueMatt> (didnt they bet numerical constants?)
371 2012-02-10 02:25:00 <BlueMatt> and iirc they got them
372 2012-02-10 02:25:18 <cjd> sounds like you know better than I
373 2012-02-10 02:25:37 <BlueMatt> meh, I dont remember that well...
374 2012-02-10 02:26:00 <cjd> run bitcoin over 4g?
375 2012-02-10 02:26:13 <cjd> oh do they let you open ports?
376 2012-02-10 02:26:15 <BlueMatt> heh, that would do it, but I never do
377 2012-02-10 02:26:19 <BlueMatt> I dont think so
378 2012-02-10 02:26:22 <cjd> ahh
379 2012-02-10 02:26:23 <gmaxwell> cjd: it could run over evdo.
380 2012-02-10 02:26:33 <gmaxwell> (and certantly 4g)
381 2012-02-10 02:26:49 <BlueMatt> bitcoin doesnt eat much bw, but if you let it sit there 24/7 it will sip quite a bit
382 2012-02-10 02:26:49 <cjd> so you really need a vpn or cheapo vps
383 2012-02-10 02:26:58 * BlueMatt uses a vpn 24/7
384 2012-02-10 02:27:06 <spawn-> who needed vpn?
385 2012-02-10 02:27:12 * BlueMatt doesnt trust campus networks
386 2012-02-10 02:27:14 <spawn-> im offer vps/vpn/ircbouncer
387 2012-02-10 02:27:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: uses hardly any if you're not listening. The maximum datarate of the blockchain itself is just 14kbit/sec over the long term.
388 2012-02-10 02:27:29 sacarlson has joined
389 2012-02-10 02:28:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: +addr + a bunch of crap... it adds up
390 2012-02-10 02:29:24 Rabbit67890 has quit (Quit: Rabbit67890)
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392 2012-02-10 02:29:57 has quit (Clown|!Clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
393 2012-02-10 02:30:25 <sipa> you'll probably see each transaction twice... once in the blockchain and once on its own
394 2012-02-10 02:33:07 <Kez_Maefele> negative balance.. - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63308.msg740670#msg740670
395 2012-02-10 02:33:18 dwon has joined
396 2012-02-10 02:33:52 <BlueMatt> its been seen
397 2012-02-10 02:34:35 <cjd> what's funny is setting open file limit to like 1024 and making dpi boxes cry
398 2012-02-10 02:34:36 Rabbit67890 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
399 2012-02-10 02:35:20 vigilyn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
400 2012-02-10 02:35:35 DaQatz is now known as No_One
401 2012-02-10 02:35:39 <BlueMatt> Kez_Maefele: bbe missed the duplicate coinbase
402 2012-02-10 02:35:41 No_One is now known as DaQatz
403 2012-02-10 02:36:28 <sipa> but it is an actual double spend
404 2012-02-10 02:37:08 <sipa> ah, maybe there was a duplicate coinbase in between that is not reported by BBE
405 2012-02-10 02:37:13 <sipa> that's possible
406 2012-02-10 02:37:28 <BlueMatt> isnt that what someone said earlier?
407 2012-02-10 02:37:36 <BlueMatt> (I didnt check, just thought someone said that)
408 2012-02-10 02:37:37 <sipa> oh, must have missed that
409 2012-02-10 02:37:51 <BlueMatt> I thought you said that...
410 2012-02-10 02:38:28 vorlov has joined
411 2012-02-10 02:38:33 <sipa> i said something about duplicate coinbases, but not what i meant afterwards
412 2012-02-10 02:39:00 <Kez_Maefele> is it specific for BBE only, or to bitcoin client also ?
413 2012-02-10 02:39:03 vorlov has left ()
414 2012-02-10 02:39:12 <BlueMatt> well apparently its something else
415 2012-02-10 02:40:43 <sipa> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/0000000013aa9f67da178005f9ced61c7064dd6e8464b35f6a8ca8fabc1ca2cf
416 2012-02-10 02:40:49 <sipa> bingo
417 2012-02-10 02:41:14 <sipa> it's not true that only one can be redeemed
418 2012-02-10 02:41:31 <sipa> coinbase-spend-coinbase-spend is possible
419 2012-02-10 02:41:40 <sipa> coinbase-coinbase-spend-spend isn't
420 2012-02-10 02:42:11 user_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
421 2012-02-10 02:44:18 forrestv has joined
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423 2012-02-10 02:51:36 Kez_Maefele has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120129021758])
424 2012-02-10 02:55:26 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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431 2012-02-10 03:06:18 <gmaxwell> Houston we have a (hopefully minor) problem
432 2012-02-10 03:07:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: how so?
433 2012-02-10 03:07:10 <BlueMatt> continue...
434 2012-02-10 03:07:24 <gmaxwell> I was pointing forrestv to the Feb15 version message changeâ and he pointed out that he had uncovered some NATs noticing the IP addresses in header fields and changing them.
435 2012-02-10 03:07:55 <BlueMatt> nats do dpi to change ips?
436 2012-02-10 03:07:56 <BlueMatt> ???
437 2012-02-10 03:08:21 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: duh. But they should sanely only do it to protocols they understand!
438 2012-02-10 03:08:50 <sipa> which means invalid checksums?
439 2012-02-10 03:08:59 <gmaxwell> He only observed two p2pool users with this behavior, but obviously they gave up on using it quickly.
440 2012-02-10 03:09:00 <BlueMatt> I wasnt aware of that, and it is pretty damn dumb
441 2012-02-10 03:09:28 <k9quaint> which NAT Is doing it?
442 2012-02-10 03:09:39 <k9quaint> I can't picture iptables doing that :|
443 2012-02-10 03:10:18 <sipa> in iptables you need to load specific modules for various protocols, afaik
444 2012-02-10 03:11:29 <BlueMatt> so...what use upnp to get the ip to encode in version msgs?
445 2012-02-10 03:11:29 <gmaxwell> I'm having a hard timing coming up with useful search terms for this.
446 2012-02-10 03:11:55 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: try searching for justin beiber
447 2012-02-10 03:11:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ah, that would improve survival yes.
448 2012-02-10 03:12:14 <BlueMatt> (also means we have a target for 0.6...) feb 15
449 2012-02-10 03:12:23 <BlueMatt> which is probably much, much too fast
450 2012-02-10 03:12:31 <sipa> huh?
451 2012-02-10 03:12:36 <k9quaint> make a distributed VPN
452 2012-02-10 03:12:53 <sipa> 0.6 won't be released before bip16 makes 55% support
453 2012-02-10 03:12:54 <k9quaint> then put a hyphen in your name and make youtube vids
454 2012-02-10 03:12:55 <BlueMatt> sipa: gotta have a version out for people who's connections break on the 15th
455 2012-02-10 03:12:59 <gmaxwell> well because CAddress addrMe = (fUseProxy ? CAddress(CService("0.0.0.0",0)) : addrLocalHost);
456 2012-02-10 03:13:17 <gmaxwell> I assume that addrLocalHost gets filled out by UPNP too right?
457 2012-02-10 03:13:21 <sipa> BlueMatt: oh, right
458 2012-02-10 03:13:23 <gmaxwell> so those hosts might already be okay.
459 2012-02-10 03:13:26 <BlueMatt> so...0.5.3?
460 2012-02-10 03:13:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: possibly a 0.5.3 then
461 2012-02-10 03:13:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, it currently does not
462 2012-02-10 03:13:47 <BlueMatt> only irc and static remote server
463 2012-02-10 03:13:56 <gmaxwell> IIRC the address it gets from irc/httpcrap yea...
464 2012-02-10 03:14:02 <doublec> what is the "feb 15 version message change"?
465 2012-02-10 03:14:03 <gmaxwell> Okay, so that may make it less bad.
466 2012-02-10 03:14:08 <BlueMatt> also, no way to know if "external" ip from upnp is really external
467 2012-02-10 03:14:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no, but we can't solve everything.
468 2012-02-10 03:15:07 <BlueMatt> doublec: on feb 15th version messages (and other iirc) get checksums, where they previously didnt have any
469 2012-02-10 03:15:19 <BlueMatt> s/other/a few others/
470 2012-02-10 03:15:30 <sipa> do we have an estimate how often this happens?
471 2012-02-10 03:15:39 <sipa> i have rarely see wrong checksums on messages
472 2012-02-10 03:15:42 <sipa> seen
473 2012-02-10 03:15:57 <sipa> oh, right, version is the only one with your own address
474 2012-02-10 03:16:00 <gmaxwell> Yep.
475 2012-02-10 03:16:03 <sipa> afaik even addr never includes it
476 2012-02-10 03:16:26 <gmaxwell> well addr will when you announce yourself but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't look that deep into the stream.
477 2012-02-10 03:16:30 <BlueMatt> that just seems...wrong for a nat to be blindly replacing 4 random bytes that happen to be your internal ip with the external one...
478 2012-02-10 03:16:38 <gmaxwell> Otherwise they'd corrupt random things like jpegs. :)
479 2012-02-10 03:16:41 <sipa> can we just make version ignore the checksum?
480 2012-02-10 03:16:56 <gmaxwell> We could, but there are lots and lots of nodes that won't.
481 2012-02-10 03:16:58 <BlueMatt> wed have to get huge network upgrade in a matter of days
482 2012-02-10 03:17:07 <gmaxwell> Better to get change the behavior of the host inside the bad nat.
483 2012-02-10 03:17:08 <BlueMatt> (I really wish we could do that...)
484 2012-02-10 03:17:55 <gmaxwell> s/get //
485 2012-02-10 03:18:27 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
486 2012-02-10 03:18:41 [7] has joined
487 2012-02-10 03:19:28 <BlueMatt> so...best thing I see to do is: add addrExternalFromUPnP and send that in version if it seems reasonable
488 2012-02-10 03:19:47 <sipa> ack
489 2012-02-10 03:19:54 <BlueMatt> and note in the release notes that if you are having problems connecting as of feb 15, make sure to turn on upnp
490 2012-02-10 03:20:12 <sipa> but a few stable network nodes that ignore wrong checksums in version might help a bit too
491 2012-02-10 03:20:21 <gmaxwell> Yes, at least stuff people can addnode.
492 2012-02-10 03:20:21 <BlueMatt> yep
493 2012-02-10 03:20:42 <gmaxwell> not just ignore checksumsâ but also accept the old format. The connecting party inititates, so it could either-or.
494 2012-02-10 03:22:23 <sipa> it's not *that* trivial to do so, i think
495 2012-02-10 03:25:00 ne0futur_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
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499 2012-02-10 03:27:35 <sipa> you'd need to try processing the message twice
500 2012-02-10 03:27:44 <sipa> once with and once without checksum
501 2012-02-10 03:27:53 <sipa> ignoring the checksum for version is trivial though
502 2012-02-10 03:28:25 Rabbit67890 has quit (Quit: Rabbit67890)
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509 2012-02-10 03:44:53 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 816 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/816>
510 2012-02-10 03:45:57 BlueMatt has joined
511 2012-02-10 03:47:26 <BlueMatt> why do we not have a cs_addrLocalHost its read and written from like 3 threads
512 2012-02-10 03:49:00 * BlueMatt -> bbl, Ill have this patch written tonight, hopefully for a 0.5.3 build-party this weekend
513 2012-02-10 03:56:36 cryptoxchange has joined
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517 2012-02-10 04:01:49 <XMPPwocky> sipa: ooh ooh
518 2012-02-10 04:02:27 <XMPPwocky> i can write a tamper_proxy mangler for that
519 2012-02-10 04:03:28 <XMPPwocky> at he very least, relaying an alert
520 2012-02-10 04:09:51 <gmaxwell> I'm trying not to be mean but I am tempted to respond to grarpamp with something like "was your message truncated? it appears to be missing the info as promised in your subject line"
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546 2012-02-10 04:48:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: we need to get him in irc
547 2012-02-10 04:49:25 <sipa> hmm his message is clear to me, though a bit confusing
548 2012-02-10 04:49:27 smickles is now known as smickles|idle
549 2012-02-10 04:50:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: if only he actually included info on how much was saved!
550 2012-02-10 04:52:52 cryptoxchange has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
551 2012-02-10 04:53:00 <gmaxwell> reduced my wallet size by 3.3%
552 2012-02-10 04:54:08 <BlueMatt> what about blkindex?
553 2012-02-10 04:54:19 <gmaxwell> trying now..
554 2012-02-10 04:54:47 cryptoxchange has joined
555 2012-02-10 04:54:55 <BlueMatt> anyone feel like looking into why addrLocalHost has no cs'
556 2012-02-10 04:55:04 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: is it just an integer?
557 2012-02-10 04:55:41 <gmaxwell> so.. hm. on a blkindex.dat from a fairly recently bootstrapped node.. 366628864 -> 269881344
558 2012-02-10 04:55:49 <BlueMatt> no its a CAddress
559 2012-02-10 04:56:05 <sipa> ... i suppose it used to be just an integer
560 2012-02-10 04:56:08 <sipa> before netbase
561 2012-02-10 04:56:22 <BlueMatt> I actually dont think so, but its possible
562 2012-02-10 04:56:35 <gmaxwell> so.. 26% reduction.
563 2012-02-10 04:56:47 <gmaxwell> and I bet that will also make processing faster.
564 2012-02-10 04:57:06 <BlueMatt> (also, Im looking at 0.5.2 code, so it doesnt have netbase
565 2012-02-10 04:57:16 <sipa> indeed, it was a CAddress all along
566 2012-02-10 04:57:24 <sipa> now, it's all fixed memory
567 2012-02-10 04:57:34 <sipa> worst case is you read a partially updated value
568 2012-02-10 04:57:54 <BlueMatt> so, the next question is, can we reload db from libdb eg once we catch up?
569 2012-02-10 04:58:22 <gmaxwell> some addr.dat 9015296 -> 6389760
570 2012-02-10 04:58:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I'm guessing the compact call will do about the same thing.
571 2012-02-10 04:59:24 <gmaxwell> of course... the crappy behavior that leaves all that garbage in it contributes to our poor performance.
572 2012-02-10 05:01:15 <BlueMatt> yep...
573 2012-02-10 05:01:45 <sipa> we have CDB::Rewrite
574 2012-02-10 05:01:46 [Tycho] has joined
575 2012-02-10 05:02:15 <BlueMatt> dont know if we want to use that for blkindex though...
576 2012-02-10 05:02:39 <gmaxwell> well thats what the dump/load did. Took a bit though.
577 2012-02-10 05:04:55 <BlueMatt> I suppose we can do it after a close if its been a while
578 2012-02-10 05:05:14 <gmaxwell> we don't want to make close any slower.
579 2012-02-10 05:05:18 <BlueMatt> check free memory first though
580 2012-02-10 05:05:29 <BlueMatt> so, what, do it after chain finishes loading?
581 2012-02-10 05:05:55 <sipa> i think you want this at most as an optional action
582 2012-02-10 05:06:00 <sipa> like "compact databases"
583 2012-02-10 05:06:07 <gmaxwell> Well, the rewrite .. will need a bunch of free space.
584 2012-02-10 05:06:27 <BlueMatt> sipa: well at that point you can just tell people to fire up db_dump/load
585 2012-02-10 05:08:25 <sipa> BlueMatt: for bitcoind users, yes; for bitcoin-qt users, no
586 2012-02-10 05:09:42 <BlueMatt> well, yea, but my point is if it makes a huge deal, we should probably try to do it at some opportune time
587 2012-02-10 05:09:53 <BlueMatt> s/deal/perf increase/
588 2012-02-10 05:10:02 <BlueMatt> or a decent one
589 2012-02-10 05:10:20 <sipa> i doubt it will improve performance much?
590 2012-02-10 05:11:01 <gmaxwell> no clue.
591 2012-02-10 05:11:20 <BlueMatt> maybe not then
592 2012-02-10 05:11:21 <BlueMatt> <gmaxwell> of course... the crappy behavior that leaves all that garbage in it contributes to our poor performance.
593 2012-02-10 05:12:07 Idiot___ has quit ()
594 2012-02-10 05:12:41 <BlueMatt> anyone want to sanity-check https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/fe599861c6df9ac948228d4fd8e54ce24ea64727
595 2012-02-10 05:13:34 <gmaxwell> I'd expect ~some better performance, just by making better cache usage if nothing else. Doubt it would be earth shaking.
596 2012-02-10 05:14:10 b4epoche_ has joined
597 2012-02-10 05:14:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: any reason not to put that value in addrLocalHost itself, if it makes sense?
598 2012-02-10 05:14:38 <sipa> ... which ought to be a vector
599 2012-02-10 05:14:41 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: is the byte order right?
600 2012-02-10 05:14:57 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
601 2012-02-10 05:14:57 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
602 2012-02-10 05:14:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: I prefer not to because of horror stories about 6-layer nats in odd corners of the globe
603 2012-02-10 05:15:18 <sipa> how is that relevant?
604 2012-02-10 05:15:25 <BlueMatt> sipa: and I prefer to have the externalish ip separate from addrLocalHost for the version
605 2012-02-10 05:15:27 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: meh. run isroutable on the upnp returned address.
606 2012-02-10 05:15:37 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it pulls as a string, there is no byte order
607 2012-02-10 05:15:44 <BlueMatt> (ish)
608 2012-02-10 05:15:54 <gmaxwell> besides except for this version message issue, if you are behind multilayer nat your IP isn't going to matter anyways.
609 2012-02-10 05:16:02 <gmaxwell> (because inbound won't work)
610 2012-02-10 05:16:14 <sipa> i think the real solution (especially with ipv6 coming up), is keep a vector of localhosts
611 2012-02-10 05:16:27 <sipa> and maybe keep a counter on them based on what others tell you in addrMe
612 2012-02-10 05:16:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: we also get told our address by inbound peers.
613 2012-02-10 05:16:36 <gmaxwell> ah yes.
614 2012-02-10 05:17:10 <BlueMatt> I dont like putting upnp-derived external ip in addrLocalHost, I dont know why but I just never trust upnp to do anything right
615 2012-02-10 05:17:26 <sipa> no reason to trust it less than whatismyip.com
616 2012-02-10 05:17:27 <BlueMatt> there are probably a few commonish routers that put garbage in the external ip field
617 2012-02-10 05:17:31 <sipa> well, maybe there is
618 2012-02-10 05:17:35 <sipa> but that doesn't matter
619 2012-02-10 05:17:50 <sipa> if you do sanity checks, and not let it destroy other potention local addresses
620 2012-02-10 05:18:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: meh, okay, only update it if the current localaddress isn't routable.
621 2012-02-10 05:18:59 <gmaxwell> whatever the heck you get is better than some non-routable value. :) (unless it's also non-routable, then its no worse)
622 2012-02-10 05:19:06 <BlueMatt> ok, Im too stoned to be arguing anything technical, Ill just go change it
623 2012-02-10 05:19:36 dissipate has joined
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629 2012-02-10 05:22:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: you probably want to ignore the upnp function call's result if it returns failure
630 2012-02-10 05:23:32 <BlueMatt> heh, thats what I get for copying miniupnpc's sample code...
631 2012-02-10 05:24:07 <BlueMatt> ok https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/32b4d9c935fd5b3ef03593f2c023b6217d69e2aa
632 2012-02-10 05:24:14 <sipa> hmm, maybe that implies nothing will ever be in the result vector if it returns failure
633 2012-02-10 05:24:30 <BlueMatt> I would assume so, anyway doesnt matter
634 2012-02-10 05:25:21 <sipa> heh does that compile? :o
635 2012-02-10 05:25:40 <BlueMatt> oops, did I miss a bracket or smth?
636 2012-02-10 05:26:12 <sipa> no, CAddress has no such constructor
637 2012-02-10 05:26:33 <sipa> you probably want it to be a CNetAddr, and use addrLocalHost.SetIP()
638 2012-02-10 05:26:37 <BlueMatt> compiles for me as-is, are you merging it onto master?
639 2012-02-10 05:26:56 <BlueMatt> (im on pre-netbase)
640 2012-02-10 05:27:03 <sipa> oh
641 2012-02-10 05:27:23 <sipa> nvm then
642 2012-02-10 05:27:42 <BlueMatt> Ill port it to master in a sec, just wanted one for 0.5.X first
643 2012-02-10 05:27:53 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ping
644 2012-02-10 05:28:24 <luke-jr> ?
645 2012-02-10 05:28:48 erle- has joined
646 2012-02-10 05:29:18 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: just wanted to ping you. pull-request for 0.5.X: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/32b4d9c935fd5b3ef03593f2c023b6217d69e2aa
647 2012-02-10 05:29:31 <BlueMatt> (Im about to do a 0.6 version)
648 2012-02-10 05:29:50 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: all stable commits need to be merged to master first
649 2012-02-10 05:30:00 <luke-jr> in some form or another
650 2012-02-10 05:30:14 <sipa> that implies branching master
651 2012-02-10 05:30:33 <sipa> i have no problem with that, but i've heard other object to it before (jgarzik in particular)
652 2012-02-10 05:30:39 JRWR has joined
653 2012-02-10 05:30:45 <luke-jr> sipa: ?
654 2012-02-10 05:30:57 <BlueMatt> sipa: we branched master a long time ago
655 2012-02-10 05:31:25 <luke-jr> how is it different from any other pullreq?
656 2012-02-10 05:31:29 <sipa> what am i thinking
657 2012-02-10 05:31:29 plutonic has joined
658 2012-02-10 05:31:43 <sipa> ok fine, just wait till this is in master
659 2012-02-10 05:31:46 <luke-jr> O.o
660 2012-02-10 05:32:42 <sipa> no, somehow i thought we couldn't merge this in the 0.6 line, but as it's a bugfix and quite trivial... i guess it should be anyway
661 2012-02-10 05:33:36 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I wanted to ping you as I wrote a 0.5.X version instead of you having to backport
662 2012-02-10 05:33:51 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: (as this is something that a build should exist of before feb 15)
663 2012-02-10 05:34:07 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/817
664 2012-02-10 05:34:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: thanks, if you can link it in the final pullreq I appreciate it
665 2012-02-10 05:34:16 <BlueMatt> already done :)
666 2012-02-10 05:34:44 <luke-jr> O.o
667 2012-02-10 05:34:48 <luke-jr> NATs are editing packets?
668 2012-02-10 05:34:53 <BlueMatt> apparently
669 2012-02-10 05:34:54 <sipa> so it would seem
670 2012-02-10 05:35:21 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: maybe replace with 0.0.0.0 if no UPnP then?
671 2012-02-10 05:35:26 <luke-jr> assuming it's non-routable anyway
672 2012-02-10 05:35:44 smickles is now known as idle!~michael@cpe-071-070-169-083.nc.res.rr.com|smickles
673 2012-02-10 05:35:45 cryptoxchange has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
674 2012-02-10 05:36:04 <BlueMatt> if theres no upnp, chances are we dont have to worry about crazy nats
675 2012-02-10 05:36:19 <BlueMatt> (at least not much)
676 2012-02-10 05:36:31 <luke-jr> in any case, I agree this is a real concern. I imagine sipa can pull it into master ASAP?
677 2012-02-10 05:36:54 <BlueMatt> it can wait a day or two
678 2012-02-10 05:36:58 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 817 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/817>
679 2012-02-10 05:37:03 <luke-jr> I have much bigger problems to deal with right now unfortunately
680 2012-02-10 05:37:10 <BlueMatt> but, yea as stated, it would be nice to have builds of this available in 0.5.X before feb 15
681 2012-02-10 05:37:38 <luke-jr> my wife is in the hospital, and this DDoS jerk just took out my email
682 2012-02-10 05:37:50 <BlueMatt> damn...
683 2012-02-10 05:38:27 <luke-jr> and phones too, so the hospital can't call me back -.-
684 2012-02-10 05:38:46 <BlueMatt> ddosing your phones???
685 2012-02-10 05:38:54 <gmaxwell> VoIP
686 2012-02-10 05:38:55 <luke-jr> phones are on the same server as email
687 2012-02-10 05:39:00 <BlueMatt> ouch...
688 2012-02-10 05:39:30 <BlueMatt> can I ask who runs their home phones on VoIP? anyway, go deal with that, this can wait a few days
689 2012-02-10 05:39:52 plutonic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
690 2012-02-10 05:39:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I have â every time for the last decade that I've bothered having a home phone.
691 2012-02-10 05:40:07 plutonic has joined
692 2012-02-10 05:40:28 <olp> asterisk?
693 2012-02-10 05:40:34 <tcatm> Has this NAT problem been verified? I.e. is it known which routers cause problems?
694 2012-02-10 05:40:49 <BlueMatt> routers - no, but it has caused issues with p2pool
695 2012-02-10 05:41:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm, for some reason I didnt know it was that easy to deal with
696 2012-02-10 05:41:34 <sipa> even cisco does it: https://supportforums.cisco.com/docs/DOC-5229
697 2012-02-10 05:42:15 <gmaxwell> tcatm: it was observed on two differnet p2pool users, which uses essentially the same protocol, but with the checksum.
698 2012-02-10 05:42:28 <gmaxwell> (and, I've seen it elsewhere in the past)
699 2012-02-10 05:43:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: thats ridiculous
700 2012-02-10 05:43:48 <gmaxwell> tcatm: but as I think I said on the pull, I don't have a good feel for how bad a problem it is.
701 2012-02-10 05:44:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: if we don't know which routers, how do we know they support UPnP?
702 2012-02-10 05:44:11 <gmaxwell> Maybe 'just' a couple percent of users will be hit.
703 2012-02-10 05:45:13 <tcatm> I'm strongly against working around buggy NATs. They should never even look at the payload.
704 2012-02-10 05:45:45 <sipa> well, you can argue that checksumming shouldn't be part of the application-level networking either
705 2012-02-10 05:45:59 <midnightmagic> I run my home phone on voip.
706 2012-02-10 05:46:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: another possible workaround here is to just send 0.0.0.0 in that field.
707 2012-02-10 05:46:16 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I prefer to send useful data in addrMe, if for no reason but for sanity's sake
708 2012-02-10 05:46:33 <sipa> well, for now addrMe is completely ignored by the receiver, afaik
709 2012-02-10 05:46:38 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: non-routable IPs are never useful here
710 2012-02-10 05:46:47 <sipa> but there is certainly no need to send non-routable IPs there
711 2012-02-10 05:46:51 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: the point is it should always be routable
712 2012-02-10 05:47:04 <luke-jr> â¦
713 2012-02-10 05:47:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: I can't think of what it would really be useful for off the top of my head.
714 2012-02-10 05:47:22 <tcatm> Well, if they do s/$LOCALIP/$PUBLICIP/g that would cause problems with messages including a number that looks like $LOCALIP...
715 2012-02-10 05:47:31 <gmaxwell> Yea.. if it's not routable just send 0.0.0.0.. makes sense to me.
716 2012-02-10 05:47:43 <sipa> let's see
717 2012-02-10 05:47:46 <BlueMatt> tcatm: I would assume its only in the first n bytes of the tcp session
718 2012-02-10 05:47:48 <sipa> i have UPnP here
719 2012-02-10 05:48:00 <gmaxwell> tcatm: they might be a bit smarter .. e.g. looking for $REMOTEIP$LOCALIP and or only looking at the first N bytes of the session.
720 2012-02-10 05:48:51 <gmaxwell> (and we have the checksums to protect everything else)
721 2012-02-10 05:48:52 smickles is now known as smickles|idle
722 2012-02-10 05:48:58 smickles is now known as idle!~michael@cpe-071-070-169-083.nc.res.rr.com|smickles
723 2012-02-10 05:49:06 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: oh, you are saying if its not routable, send 0.0.0.0, instead of if !upnp
724 2012-02-10 05:49:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thats fine by me
725 2012-02-10 05:49:26 <gmaxwell> unfortunately this isn't a soft roll. if x% of routers break this, bitcoin will stop working for x% overnight.
726 2012-02-10 05:49:36 <tcatm> Why do we need checksums over TCP?
727 2012-02-10 05:49:45 <luke-jr> tcatm: because nobody implements TCP checksums :/
728 2012-02-10 05:50:26 <midnightmagic> tcatm: Even we here require additional protection above tcp checksumming.. lots of software/devices/etc get it wrong. :(
729 2012-02-10 05:50:30 <tcatm> With v6 they are mandatory.
730 2012-02-10 05:50:34 <gmaxwell> tcatm: I don't know what the actual motivation was, but tcp checkums are pretty inadequate. They provide far less than 16 bits worth of protection on most streams.
731 2012-02-10 05:51:12 <gmaxwell> (because they're just a ones compliment sum of bytes basically, and most frames aren't actually big enough to cover the space well)
732 2012-02-10 05:51:45 <tcatm> Lower layers have checksums and error correction, too.
733 2012-02-10 05:51:46 <BlueMatt> tcatm: http://www.ir.bbn.com/documents/articles/crc-sigcomm00.ps
734 2012-02-10 05:51:53 <BlueMatt> (originally linked by gmaxwell)
735 2012-02-10 05:51:58 <gmaxwell> I've personally wittnessed tcp passing corrupted data quite a few times.
736 2012-02-10 05:52:19 <gmaxwell> tcatm: yea, see that paper wrt ethernet crc too.
737 2012-02-10 05:52:29 <midnightmagic> tcatm: It doesn't seem to help. I've seen the same thing gmaxwell has. Enough data goes by, the data corrupts..
738 2012-02-10 05:52:57 <gmaxwell> tcatm: the lower layer stuff isn't end to end and packets are often unprotected on devices busses and memories while in transit.
739 2012-02-10 05:53:19 <midnightmagic> I've even seen it on my gE home network, but then I have a good 50TB of storage that churns.. maybe a little more than I'd like.
740 2012-02-10 05:53:44 <gmaxwell> (I had a OC192 interface that managed to set a particualr bit to one about 4000 bytes into every other packet once.. that was fun to troubleshoot)
741 2012-02-10 05:54:19 <FROTUSCI> did you put it in your ear gmaxwell?
742 2012-02-10 05:54:22 <BlueMatt> networking horror stories...
743 2012-02-10 05:54:35 nazguls has joined
744 2012-02-10 05:54:47 <gmaxwell> (and did this above the link layer CRC, of courseâ)
745 2012-02-10 05:56:16 <gmaxwell> tcatm: in any case, we've 'got 'em' like em or not.
746 2012-02-10 05:57:08 <tcatm> Can we remove the IP from the version message and get it from the socket instead?
747 2012-02-10 05:57:13 RazielZ has joined
748 2012-02-10 05:57:53 <gmaxwell> tcatm: We don't even use that field for anything as far as I can tell, but we can't remove the fieldâ especially not in the enormous base of deployed clients.
749 2012-02-10 05:58:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I am really liking that "replace with 0.0.0.0" if the localaddress is non-routable.
750 2012-02-10 05:58:27 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
751 2012-02-10 05:58:33 <tcatm> Well, set it to 0.0.0.0 for the next few years before it is removed?
752 2012-02-10 05:58:37 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: sounds good to me
753 2012-02-10 05:58:48 <luke-jr> rather, would :: be better?
754 2012-02-10 05:58:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: we already send zeros there if the proxy is set... so we know it's safe.
755 2012-02-10 05:58:56 knotwork_ is now known as knotwork
756 2012-02-10 05:58:58 smickles is now known as smickles|idle
757 2012-02-10 05:59:06 <BlueMatt> yep
758 2012-02-10 05:59:09 smickles is now known as idle!~michael@cpe-071-070-169-083.nc.res.rr.com|smickles
759 2012-02-10 05:59:19 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Whatever it does the proxy behavior should be identical.
760 2012-02-10 05:59:32 <sipa> of course it is safe... it is ignored completely
761 2012-02-10 05:59:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: well even more safe â e.g. what if some old version we're forgetting doesn't ignore it? :)
762 2012-02-10 06:00:30 <sipa> ... or some alternate implementation
763 2012-02-10 06:01:02 <gmaxwell> meh. this sucks that it's going to be a hard cut. We won't have a chance to send an alert if it looks like its going to be bad, because we won't know until too late.
764 2012-02-10 06:01:32 <luke-jr> could send out an advisory alert
765 2012-02-10 06:01:38 <gmaxwell> ugh.
766 2012-02-10 06:01:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: updated: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/817
767 2012-02-10 06:02:01 <luke-jr> "There is a major protocol change due tomorrow, that was scheduled 2 years ago. If your Bitcoin client stops working, please upgrade and contact us on IRC"
768 2012-02-10 06:02:02 <gmaxwell> I really don't want to use an alert for something that might only hit 1:1000 users.
769 2012-02-10 06:02:10 <BlueMatt> release 0.5.3 and make it well-known that if you have connection issues on feb 15, you need to upgrade
770 2012-02-10 06:02:13 <gmaxwell> hm. luke-jr thats not so bad.
771 2012-02-10 06:02:16 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: well, there's always the possibility of other unknowns here
772 2012-02-10 06:03:01 <gmaxwell> Can we also backport the checksum ignoring for 0.5.3? That way an installed base of 0.5.3 listners will be protective.
773 2012-02-10 06:03:42 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think you forgot an -a in your amend?
774 2012-02-10 06:03:50 <luke-jr> (fUseProxy || !addrLocalHost.IsRoutable() ? CAddress(CService("0.0.0.0",0)) : addrLocalHost)
775 2012-02-10 06:03:54 <gmaxwell> oh there it is.
776 2012-02-10 06:03:55 <luke-jr> ^ is that the right precedence order?
777 2012-02-10 06:04:41 <gmaxwell> good spotting.
778 2012-02-10 06:04:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: one issue (or advantage) with checksum ignoring is that it will make clients with wrong date after februari 15th still connect
779 2012-02-10 06:04:52 <sipa> but with severe protocol misunderstandings
780 2012-02-10 06:05:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: whats the severe protocol misunderstandings?
781 2012-02-10 06:05:23 <sipa> only a few messages make it through
782 2012-02-10 06:05:39 <sipa> the version message is misinterpreted completely
783 2012-02-10 06:05:45 <sipa> so the protocol version is garbage
784 2012-02-10 06:05:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ???
785 2012-02-10 06:05:48 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: ? is super weak only assignment and comma are weaker.
786 2012-02-10 06:05:48 <luke-jr> could be smart about it
787 2012-02-10 06:06:04 <luke-jr> only ignore the checksum if the address in question is IPv4-like
788 2012-02-10 06:06:32 <sipa> or maybe better: only ignore the checksum if the version number is still sane
789 2012-02-10 06:06:43 <sipa> but what is 'sane' ?
790 2012-02-10 06:07:00 <luke-jr> meh
791 2012-02-10 06:07:03 <gmaxwell> bleh.
792 2012-02-10 06:07:09 <luke-jr> wrong-date clients will reject our version anyway
793 2012-02-10 06:07:33 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: new version of that pull also posted for 0.5.X
794 2012-02-10 06:07:36 <gmaxwell> far side inititates, we could downgrade.. but sipa said that wasn't as trivial as I thought..
795 2012-02-10 06:08:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: we'll still hang up on the wrong date nodes pretty quickly.
796 2012-02-10 06:09:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: how so?
797 2012-02-10 06:09:51 <sipa> i changed my date, and ran a client with my patch
798 2012-02-10 06:10:07 <gmaxwell> I guess not then. bleh.
799 2012-02-10 06:10:27 devrandom has quit (Quit: leaving)
800 2012-02-10 06:11:43 <gmaxwell> so, contingency plan if the nat issue is a big issue: we spin up a bunch of nodes with your patch, set to join all the IRC channels, make sure they get into dnsseed.
801 2012-02-10 06:12:04 <BlueMatt> and have a 0.5.3 on hand to tell people to use
802 2012-02-10 06:12:07 <gmaxwell> We should also make the dnsseed nodes check shortly after the cutover to evict broken nodes.
803 2012-02-10 06:12:23 <gmaxwell> yes, and have 0.5.3 already released which has the BlueMatt patch.
804 2012-02-10 06:12:42 <BlueMatt> +sipa's nochecksum?
805 2012-02-10 06:12:52 <gmaxwell> and ... I think we should do the alert like luke suggested 24 hours before the switchover.
806 2012-02-10 06:13:00 <BlueMatt> thats fair
807 2012-02-10 06:13:08 <gmaxwell> No, can't do the no checksum in a release for the reason sipa gives. :(
808 2012-02-10 06:13:34 <gmaxwell> The alert shouldn't tell people to upgrade so much as advise about the change and tell them where to go to get the latest information.
809 2012-02-10 06:14:08 <gmaxwell> (as we won't know if 0.5.3 is sufficient for all changeover related problems until its likely too late for an alert)
810 2012-02-10 06:14:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: mmm, ok missed that
811 2012-02-10 06:14:31 <BlueMatt> yea, a temp page on bitcoin.org or smth
812 2012-02-10 06:14:38 <sipa> well, is completely messed up version messages such a problem?
813 2012-02-10 06:14:41 <sipa> it's dirty for sure
814 2012-02-10 06:14:50 OneFixt_ has joined
815 2012-02-10 06:15:17 <sipa> but it will only occur for nodes that a) have a wrong date very close to the switchover point b) wouldn't get a connection anyway either
816 2012-02-10 06:15:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm. perhaps .. kinda sucks that this is going to break our clock notices for a while.
817 2012-02-10 06:16:10 <gmaxwell> then again, it sounded like they weren't working right already.
818 2012-02-10 06:16:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm. I suppose it's not that bad.
819 2012-02-10 06:17:19 <gmaxwell> well.. they're going to misparse ours and not get the time from us either.
820 2012-02-10 06:18:06 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
821 2012-02-10 06:19:13 <sipa> it seems i'm behind a double-nat
822 2012-02-10 06:19:18 <sipa> and UPnP works
823 2012-02-10 06:19:19 <BlueMatt> ...
824 2012-02-10 06:19:23 <BlueMatt> ouch
825 2012-02-10 06:19:25 <sipa> and doesn't change payload data
826 2012-02-10 06:19:29 Hunterbunter has joined
827 2012-02-10 06:20:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: works as in enables you to listen?
828 2012-02-10 06:20:43 <sipa> yes, and receive connections
829 2012-02-10 06:20:59 <gmaxwell> crazy. cool.
830 2012-02-10 06:21:12 <gmaxwell> yea, we really need someone that gets mangled to test this with.
831 2012-02-10 06:21:17 <sipa> so the inner nat must somehow forward the upnp message upsteam
832 2012-02-10 06:21:43 <BlueMatt> yuck
833 2012-02-10 06:22:30 <sipa> or there is just one nat, but its idea of the WAM ip is wrong
834 2012-02-10 06:22:35 <sipa> WAN
835 2012-02-10 06:22:44 <BlueMatt> wouldnt be at all surprised about that one
836 2012-02-10 06:22:46 <gmaxwell> oh so you're learning the wrong wan IP via upnp?
837 2012-02-10 06:22:54 <sipa> indeed
838 2012-02-10 06:22:54 <gmaxwell> that kinda surprises me.
839 2012-02-10 06:23:05 <gmaxwell> is it giving you another 1918 address?
840 2012-02-10 06:23:07 <BlueMatt> its upnp, its a mess
841 2012-02-10 06:23:09 <gmaxwell> Are we reading the right response?
842 2012-02-10 06:23:17 <sipa> the problem is not upnp-related
843 2012-02-10 06:23:31 <sipa> the router's web config page also shows the wrong wan ip
844 2012-02-10 06:23:37 <sipa> (it's a 10.x one)
845 2012-02-10 06:23:49 <BlueMatt> oh, yea maybe you are behind 2 nats
846 2012-02-10 06:23:59 <gmaxwell> then damn, sure sounds like double nat. Cool.
847 2012-02-10 06:24:32 <BlueMatt> cool? thats gross
848 2012-02-10 06:24:52 <sipa> cool that it works
849 2012-02-10 06:24:55 <sipa> gross that it exists
850 2012-02-10 06:25:06 <BlueMatt> yea
851 2012-02-10 06:25:29 smickles is now known as smickles|idle
852 2012-02-10 06:25:40 <sipa> i mean... teredo is also an incredible hack, but so nice that it works
853 2012-02-10 06:26:34 <BlueMatt> hacks are ugly and far too common, but they do tend to work
854 2012-02-10 06:27:04 <sipa> ;;later tell theymos it seems BBE doesn't recognize compressed pubkeys
855 2012-02-10 06:27:04 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
856 2012-02-10 06:27:10 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's going to get worse before it gets better.
857 2012-02-10 06:27:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep, very, very sadly
858 2012-02-10 06:28:16 __joe has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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870 2012-02-10 06:51:27 <finway> ;;seen roconor
871 2012-02-10 06:51:27 <gribble> I have not seen roconor.
872 2012-02-10 06:51:31 BLZNGPNGN has joined
873 2012-02-10 06:51:37 <finway> seen roconnor
874 2012-02-10 06:51:43 <finway> ;;seen roconnor
875 2012-02-10 06:51:43 <gribble> roconnor was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 days, 15 hours, 59 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <roconnor> sipa, gmaxwell: I think I know how to turn 1000 confirmation coins back into 1 confirmation coins using duplicate transactions.
876 2012-02-10 06:52:51 <finway> someone's spreading FUD on the forum
877 2012-02-10 06:54:11 wasabi2 has joined
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880 2012-02-10 06:56:05 <sipa> finway: where?
881 2012-02-10 06:56:15 doublec_ has joined
882 2012-02-10 06:56:21 <finway> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63308.0
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896 2012-02-10 06:57:55 <finway> is _coinbase_double_mining&spending really an serious issue when reorg happens?
897 2012-02-10 06:58:05 <sipa> it could cause a block chain split
898 2012-02-10 06:58:34 <finway> but split happens everyday right?
899 2012-02-10 06:58:50 <finway> s/split/reorg/
900 2012-02-10 06:58:57 <sipa> no, i mean a real split
901 2012-02-10 06:59:03 <sipa> one that doesn't get resolved
902 2012-02-10 06:59:22 <sipa> anyway, we plan to get a fix in 0.6 for that still
903 2012-02-10 06:59:29 <sipa> it's a known issue
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957 2012-02-10 07:12:08 <nazguls> gmaxwell is banning everyone from #bitcoin
958 2012-02-10 07:12:16 <nazguls> dude is mad
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960 2012-02-10 07:13:49 <midnightmagic> jiles- deserved it.
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976 2012-02-10 07:23:53 <finway> i thought pirate40 have received unknown 0.001 bitcoins ?
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978 2012-02-10 07:23:58 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
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981 2012-02-10 07:24:57 <finway> get everyone's address dirty.
982 2012-02-10 07:25:23 Raziel_ has joined
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984 2012-02-10 07:26:15 <finway> sipa: can that happen?
985 2012-02-10 07:28:40 JFK911_ has joined
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987 2012-02-10 07:29:22 <FROTUSCI> "Fifty jurisdictions, including Connecticut, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and Washington, D.C. regulate secondhand jewelers and coin dealers, in some way, such as licensing, anti-fraud, counterfeiting, or regulation of certain activities. Many of the states require secondhand jewelry and coin dealers to obtain a permit through the municipality in which the dealer does business."
988 2012-02-10 07:29:24 <FROTUSCI> " The municipalities are authorized to set permit fees, but the state maintains requirements regarding recordkeeping, state and local police accessibility, and holding periods.""
989 2012-02-10 07:29:36 <FROTUSCI> gmaxwell is on crack oblivious to legal reality
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1009 2012-02-10 07:31:12 <FROTUSCI> handy chart of each state's gold dealer's regulatory requirements: http://www.cga.ct.gov/2009/rpt/2009-R-0395.htm
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1016 2012-02-10 07:31:33 <gmaxwell> FROTUSCI: I think you've gotten your sock accounts mixed up.
1017 2012-02-10 07:31:46 Dagger3 has joined
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1019 2012-02-10 07:32:10 <FROTUSCI> gmaxwell: im just curious why you would deny something so obvious. are you affiliated with that coin site?
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1024 2012-02-10 07:32:29 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: are you suffering from an excess of free time?
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1027 2012-02-10 07:32:47 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: I'm actually having a wonderful day!
1028 2012-02-10 07:33:07 * k9quaint taps his sarcasmometer
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1038 2012-02-10 07:33:56 <finway> All of the blocks in the old chain that are not in the new one become orphan blocks, and their generations are invalidated. Transactions that use the newly-invalid generated coins also become invalid
1039 2012-02-10 07:34:22 <gmaxwell> finway: thats why bitcoin has the maturity delay.
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1044 2012-02-10 07:36:56 <finway> gmaxwell: well, if someguy uses coinbase_spend_coinbase_spend make an reorg
1045 2012-02-10 07:37:29 <gmaxwell> finway: what about it. A 100 block reorg? It's not as simple as you're saying.
1046 2012-02-10 07:37:40 <finway> say, mineA spendA_to_all_570000_address_left_1_satoshi mineDUPA spendA
1047 2012-02-10 07:37:45 <finway> will that cause a reorg?
1048 2012-02-10 07:37:55 <gmaxwell> ...
1049 2012-02-10 07:38:24 <gmaxwell> No, thats entirely unrelated. There is nothing wrong with mine/spend/minedue/spend by itself. It's harmless and fine.
1050 2012-02-10 07:38:27 bd__ has joined
1051 2012-02-10 07:38:35 <gmaxwell> I don't have time right now to explain the actual concern, unfortunately.
1052 2012-02-10 07:38:40 adulau_ has joined
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1054 2012-02-10 07:38:49 <finway> gmaxwell,thanks.
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1067 2012-02-10 07:40:48 <FROTUSCI> to say that coin dealers dont need to be registered is ridiculous: http://www.cga.ct.gov/2009/rpt/2009-R-0395.htm theyre required in all but 3 states
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1107 2012-02-10 07:49:04 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: laanwj opened pull request 818 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/818>
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1151 2012-02-10 07:57:32 <FROTUSCI> when you apply for a business license to deal i gold coins, they do a background check and reject you if you've had certain convictions in the past
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1162 2012-02-10 07:59:06 <AAA_awright_> BCBot shouldn't be messaging users without being talked to
1163 2012-02-10 07:59:12 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
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1177 2012-02-10 08:02:44 <gmaxwell> AAA_awright: it only messages you to inform you the channel is being logged.
1178 2012-02-10 08:02:56 <FROTUSCI> in general if you deliver the coins quickly, within 28 days, you are exempt from CFTC requirements. but if you delay shipment, you are treated as a futures dealer
1179 2012-02-10 08:02:59 <gmaxwell> AAA_awright: this is a purpose that couldn't be accomplished if it waited for you to ask.
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1185 2012-02-10 08:03:37 <AAA_awright> That's something that needs to go in the /topic, it's not good form for a bot to do that
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1196 2012-02-10 08:07:08 <FROTUSCI> sup tux
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1239 2012-02-10 08:56:00 <wump> I think it's good form to notify people they are being logged
1240 2012-02-10 08:57:45 <sipa_> i think i'm missing conversations here?
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1259 2012-02-10 09:06:49 <FROTUSCI> interview with coinabul guy jay shore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d46dFmAmnuc
1260 2012-02-10 09:07:00 <FROTUSCI> he doesn't like being tracked down apparently
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1264 2012-02-10 09:07:32 <cjd> if it's the one I think it is, that an "old friend" so to speak
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1266 2012-02-10 09:07:39 <cjd> prior bad blood etc etc
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1279 2012-02-10 09:10:39 <FROTUSCI> cjd: reminds be of the bbc video where they track down a troll in cardiff
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1283 2012-02-10 09:13:56 <wump> sipa_: someone was complaining about the bot
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1383 2012-02-10 10:27:40 <Hunterbunter> is anyone here a super scary expert on c++, python, mining, pools, openCL, etc, and could create a c++ miner in their sleep? I would like to talk to you
1384 2012-02-10 10:28:16 ivan\ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1385 2012-02-10 10:28:25 <Hunterbunter> I don't want "just another miner"...I just functionality I want to include in my c++ app
1386 2012-02-10 10:28:37 <Hunterbunter> my assumption is that if someone can write one in their sleep, they know it inside out and can help me with what I need (it's more complicated than just a miner).
1387 2012-02-10 10:28:38 <sipa_> what functionality?
1388 2012-02-10 10:28:48 sipa_ is now known as sipa
1389 2012-02-10 10:29:16 <Hunterbunter> mostly on demand throttling
1390 2012-02-10 10:29:28 <Hunterbunter> as well as autoconnected to a pool
1391 2012-02-10 10:29:33 <Hunterbunter> *autoconnecting
1392 2012-02-10 10:29:37 Phoebus has joined
1393 2012-02-10 10:30:04 <Hunterbunter> by on demand I suppose I really mean dynamic throttling
1394 2012-02-10 10:30:25 <sipa> looking at cgminer is probably a good way to start
1395 2012-02-10 10:31:06 <Hunterbunter> I did have a look at the code, but I'm truly lost in it - and I have my focus elsewhere at the moment
1396 2012-02-10 10:31:17 <Joric> i got best results on poclbm
1397 2012-02-10 10:31:48 <Hunterbunter> I'm looking for someone to help me integrate it into my own existing app, for a significant bounty
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1399 2012-02-10 10:32:12 <Hunterbunter> I dont' really want to describe the whole thing on here, but if anyone is willing and able, I'm happy to chat more in private
1400 2012-02-10 10:33:27 <coingenuity> Hunterbunter: i know someone who can help
1401 2012-02-10 10:33:31 <coingenuity> how much is the bounty?
1402 2012-02-10 10:35:11 <Hunterbunter> I'm thinking a share of profit up to 10k btc
1403 2012-02-10 10:35:21 <Hunterbunter> Unfortunately I can't offer much up front
1404 2012-02-10 10:36:21 <coingenuity> huh...i can point you towards the author of cgminer but he probably won't mess with it without an upfront of some sort
1405 2012-02-10 10:36:37 <coingenuity> Hunterbunter: #ozcoin and chat with conman and Diablo-D3 a bit
1406 2012-02-10 10:36:51 <coingenuity> one of them may be willing to help
1407 2012-02-10 10:36:54 <Hunterbunter> sure it's worth a shot
1408 2012-02-10 10:37:10 <coingenuity> :)
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1422 2012-02-10 11:19:08 <FROTUSCI> coingenuity complained to #freenode about the youtube vid. haha
1423 2012-02-10 11:20:28 <FROTUSCI> the guy lost his shit at a starbuckss
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1518 2012-02-10 14:21:06 <TD> luke-jr: is your dns seed down ?
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1522 2012-02-10 14:22:56 <luke-jr> TD: everything of mine is down
1523 2012-02-10 14:23:01 <TD> :(
1524 2012-02-10 14:23:02 <TD> dos?
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1530 2012-02-10 14:24:03 <luke-jr> TD: 20 Gbit DDoS
1531 2012-02-10 14:24:15 <TD> somebody wants to outrun the chain or ... ?
1532 2012-02-10 14:24:17 <luke-jr> TD: Google want to take em on? ;)
1533 2012-02-10 14:24:28 <luke-jr> TD: no idea what their goal is
1534 2012-02-10 14:24:37 <TD> ugh
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1536 2012-02-10 14:25:01 <luke-jr> now that Eligius has protection, they've moved on to my personal stuff
1537 2012-02-10 14:25:12 <lianj> yikes
1538 2012-02-10 14:25:13 <luke-jr> apparently they DDoS'd some freenode servers too
1539 2012-02-10 14:26:29 <TD> throw your stuff behind appengine and i guess you'll get the regular DoS protection for free
1540 2012-02-10 14:26:36 <TD> it depends what type of attack it is. won't do much for DNS i guess
1541 2012-02-10 14:26:50 <TD> and i mean he knows your provider now
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1549 2012-02-10 14:33:24 <Idiot___> im just wondering
1550 2012-02-10 14:33:30 <Idiot___> what if all the pools are ddos'ed at the same time?
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1555 2012-02-10 14:38:07 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: Then it's a pretty good time for solo miners and p2pool users.
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1558 2012-02-10 14:50:09 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: p2pool can be ddos'd too :p
1559 2012-02-10 14:51:15 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it becomes solomining if you (well, ± software bugs)
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1561 2012-02-10 14:51:54 <Idiot___> so if all the pools including p2p can that mean double spending takes place?
1562 2012-02-10 14:52:21 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: No.
1563 2012-02-10 14:52:32 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: the attacker still has to create blocks at the current difficulty.
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1567 2012-02-10 14:55:09 <helo> someone said that the p2pool mining difficulty is 4x higher... that can't be true can it?
1568 2012-02-10 14:55:48 <gmaxwell> 4x higher than what?
1569 2012-02-10 14:56:02 <helo> higher than mining solo, i assume
1570 2012-02-10 14:56:14 <gmaxwell> Thats nonsense.
1571 2012-02-10 14:56:27 <helo> good... that would be pretty broken :)
1572 2012-02-10 14:56:31 <gmaxwell> helo: where is that someone?
1573 2012-02-10 14:56:45 <Idiot___> i heard p2p has its own blockchain
1574 2012-02-10 14:56:48 weather is now known as BeTep
1575 2012-02-10 14:56:49 <helo> hmmmmm i'll try to find them
1576 2012-02-10 14:57:14 <gmaxwell> helo: don't let them know I'm coming. Stabbing is more fun when its a surprise.
1577 2012-02-10 14:57:47 <helo> heh
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1579 2012-02-10 15:00:07 <Idiot___> gmaxwell: dont let who know your coming?
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1590 2012-02-10 15:10:37 <TD> weird
1591 2012-02-10 15:10:42 <TD> sendtoaddress got a lot slower for me in 0.5.2
1592 2012-02-10 15:10:48 <TD> i see it hang for seconds before completing
1593 2012-02-10 15:12:46 <gmaxwell> TD: has your wallet been flooded with 1e-8 inputs? thats the symptom
1594 2012-02-10 15:13:07 <TD> no. it's a testnet in a box that has mined for a while
1595 2012-02-10 15:13:17 <TD> so i guess it's got on the order of 10,000 transactions or so
1596 2012-02-10 15:14:06 dr_win has joined
1597 2012-02-10 15:14:13 <Idiot___> wow urve got moneyz
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1654 2012-02-10 16:46:09 <panujan> coingenuity was a prick and banned some ppl so he got dox'd: http://pastebin.com/hPqYRsG8
1655 2012-02-10 16:46:14 <panujan> l8r
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1687 2012-02-10 17:43:31 <jgarzik> sipa: I generally point to the Linux kernel policy of mandating that fix always appear in upstream first
1688 2012-02-10 17:44:07 <jgarzik> sipa: there are always exceptions, of course. sometimes upstream already fixed the problem in a different way, or simply does not have the buggy code anymore.
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1706 2012-02-10 18:15:44 <chmod755> rpcpassword should be a sha256 hash instead of plain text
1707 2012-02-10 18:16:04 <gmaxwell> chmod755: haha
1708 2012-02-10 18:16:10 <luke-jr> â¦
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1710 2012-02-10 18:16:25 <gmaxwell> chmod755: if someone has access to your rpcpassword file, you're toast.
1711 2012-02-10 18:16:41 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: why?
1712 2012-02-10 18:16:43 <chmod755> gmaxwell: wallet encryption?
1713 2012-02-10 18:16:56 <luke-jr> I think it's actually a pretty decent idea
1714 2012-02-10 18:17:06 <gmaxwell> chmod755: ... your rpcpassowrd should not be the same as wallet encryption!@#!@
1715 2012-02-10 18:17:13 <chmod755> i know
1716 2012-02-10 18:17:25 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: preclueds using better auth that doesn't send it over the wire.
1717 2012-02-10 18:17:29 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1718 2012-02-10 18:17:45 <gmaxwell> chmod755: in any case, I just recently changed it to recommend you use a 256 bit random value.
1719 2012-02-10 18:17:54 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it's a tradeoff. one that bitcoind doesn't take either side on yet
1720 2012-02-10 18:18:14 <luke-jr> and we have SSL for over-the-wire encryption
1721 2012-02-10 18:18:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: also means you'd need a special tool to set the password. If we were to do that I'd rather just take away user configurable rpcpassword entirely.
1722 2012-02-10 18:18:47 <luke-jr> sha256sum isn't that special
1723 2012-02-10 18:18:48 <gmaxwell> (e.g. have it give you a string, which it may happen to only store the hash of)
1724 2012-02-10 18:18:50 <chmod755> gmaxwell: a special tool?
1725 2012-02-10 18:19:24 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: sure it is... echo "hello" 2cf24dba5fb0.... or 5891b5b522d5df086d.... ?
1726 2012-02-10 18:19:51 Guest54562 has joined
1727 2012-02-10 18:19:57 <chmod755> echo -n "\9âa&Niâ¬küÃ" | sha256sum
1728 2012-02-10 18:19:57 <chmod755> 94dae581f2fddc433a6c4093ff34ac0d4ea00ef19e722d97b3815b43478fce47 -
1729 2012-02-10 18:20:01 <luke-jr> $ echo -n hello | sha256sum
1730 2012-02-10 18:20:03 <luke-jr> 2cf24dba5fb0a30e26e83b2ac5b9e29e1b161e5c1fa7425e73043362938b9824 -
1731 2012-02-10 18:20:21 <gmaxwell> yes, you know to include the -n .. not all systems even have that argument to echo.
1732 2012-02-10 18:20:49 <chmod755> gmaxwell: it just removes the \n
1733 2012-02-10 18:21:15 <gmaxwell> Alsoâ would we then be called incompetent for not using an iterated hash?
1734 2012-02-10 18:22:04 <gmaxwell> (and yup, plaintext is arguably better, because at least there is no doubt that its secret data)
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1737 2012-02-10 18:22:39 <gmaxwell> obviously we need SRP. ;)
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1741 2012-02-10 18:24:39 <gmaxwell> chmod755: in any case, a rpchashedpassword= would be like an 10 line patch.
1742 2012-02-10 18:25:22 <chmod755> hm, maybe it shouldn't be sha256, because mining also uses it
1743 2012-02-10 18:25:36 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
1744 2012-02-10 18:25:55 <gmaxwell> but I think it would actually be counterproductive for security. E.g. today I can say "your rpcusing tool should read the config out of bitcoin.conf", but I couldn't with that.
1745 2012-02-10 18:26:31 <gmaxwell> chmod755: if you're going to make that argument then it really really shouldn't be any non-iterated hash. They're all way too fast. crypt_sha256 (/512) exists for a reason.
1746 2012-02-10 18:29:52 <cjd> we've had some luck generating random passwords for the user when he generates the config file
1747 2012-02-10 18:30:12 <cjd> they can still set the passwords to something weak but it starts them off on the right track
1748 2012-02-10 18:31:35 <luke-jr> chmod755: mining is double-sha256
1749 2012-02-10 18:32:35 <luke-jr> iterated hashing could slow down JSON-RPC too much
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1751 2012-02-10 18:34:49 <gmaxwell> cjd: reference client now recommends secure passwords.
1752 2012-02-10 18:35:09 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it could simply keep the known correct value in memory.
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1755 2012-02-10 18:41:33 <chmod755> luke-jr: i know, but miners are optimized for sha256
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1763 2012-02-10 18:59:18 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: ping
1764 2012-02-10 19:00:22 <Idiot___> are there any hash algorithms that run well on nvidia cards but poor on ati ones?
1765 2012-02-10 19:00:35 <Idiot___> gmaxwell luke-jr neone?
1766 2012-02-10 19:00:56 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: unlikely
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1768 2012-02-10 19:02:45 <Idiot___> y not?
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1771 2012-02-10 19:04:53 <Idiot___> hm,
1772 2012-02-10 19:08:08 <forrestv> Idiot___, nvidia cards have bad integer performance, so most hash algorithms will suck no matter what
1773 2012-02-10 19:08:23 <Idiot___> can hashing be done with non-integers?
1774 2012-02-10 19:08:29 <forrestv> if you constructed a new algorithm, it'd probably be possible, though... one that uses floats or nvidia-specific features
1775 2012-02-10 19:08:43 <Idiot___> cool that sounds good
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1777 2012-02-10 19:08:53 <Idiot___> it seems a little unfair that all those nvidia cards are sitting around doing nothing
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1782 2012-02-10 19:12:00 <luke-jr> Idiot___: pretty fair. nvidia sucks
1783 2012-02-10 19:12:15 <Idiot___> is it possible to do hasshing on a sound card?
1784 2012-02-10 19:12:27 <luke-jr> â¦
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1787 2012-02-10 19:16:12 <Idiot___> what if you plug the output socket into the microphone socket
1788 2012-02-10 19:16:19 <Idiot___> and use some features on the soudncard that you dont get on the graphics cards
1789 2012-02-10 19:18:50 <midnightmagic> bleh, coderrr's patches don't cleanly apply to git head.
1790 2012-02-10 19:22:09 <chmod755> "Idiot___: is it possible to do hasshing on a sound card?" <<lol
1791 2012-02-10 19:22:53 <marf_away> yes
1792 2012-02-10 19:23:01 <marf_away> some soundcards have fpgas
1793 2012-02-10 19:23:09 <Idiot___> ohh, cool, lets do that
1794 2012-02-10 19:23:17 <Idiot___> it seems a bit unfair to just have graphics cards do the hashing
1795 2012-02-10 19:23:33 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1796 2012-02-10 19:23:40 <chmod755> is it possible to do hashing on microwaves?
1797 2012-02-10 19:23:40 <marf_away> iam working on cooler work of proofs with more uses than bitcoin
1798 2012-02-10 19:23:41 <marf_away> ;D
1799 2012-02-10 19:23:53 <Idiot___> oh marf_away, tell more
1800 2012-02-10 19:24:05 <marf_away> iam waiting for the inspiration
1801 2012-02-10 19:24:05 <marf_away> ;D
1802 2012-02-10 19:24:10 <Idiot___> have you come up with a system to stop email spam?
1803 2012-02-10 19:24:18 <luke-jr> someone should make a list of certified 32-bit calculators to mine with
1804 2012-02-10 19:24:33 <luke-jr> Idiot___: people were doing that before Bitcoin
1805 2012-02-10 19:25:15 <Idiot___> at my job, my boss keeps telling me I need more proof of work
1806 2012-02-10 19:25:18 <Idiot___> can you help me with that>
1807 2012-02-10 19:25:19 <Idiot___> ?
1808 2012-02-10 19:25:22 <chmod755> hashcash
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1812 2012-02-10 19:33:13 <midnightmagic> I've always wanted my sock drawer to hash blocks for me..
1813 2012-02-10 19:33:20 plutonic has quit (Client Quit)
1814 2012-02-10 19:33:21 <midnightmagic> Is that possible?
1815 2012-02-10 19:33:35 plutonic has joined
1816 2012-02-10 19:33:46 <Idiot___> if it is, ill be the one to find out midnightmagic
1817 2012-02-10 19:34:11 <Idiot___> i want my girlfriends coochie to spit out hash proofs myself
1818 2012-02-10 19:34:27 <Idiot___> right now shes on her period and its just messy
1819 2012-02-10 19:34:51 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: um. Can we try to be at least a little professional and tactful here?
1820 2012-02-10 19:34:59 <Idiot___> ohps my bad
1821 2012-02-10 19:38:16 <Idiot___> anyway
1822 2012-02-10 19:38:28 <Idiot___> im up for the new nvidia/sound/sockdrawerHashSystem
1823 2012-02-10 19:38:36 <Idiot___> who wants to help me code it?
1824 2012-02-10 19:40:09 <Idiot___> does anyone kno how to program a sock drawer?
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1827 2012-02-10 19:41:39 <luke-jr> Idiot___: biased against calculators?
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1832 2012-02-10 19:47:50 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: dooglus opened issue 819 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/819>
1833 2012-02-10 19:48:03 BLZNGPNGN has joined
1834 2012-02-10 19:51:02 <Idiot___> luke-jr: not a big fan
1835 2012-02-10 19:53:09 <pusle> angry birds proof of work :D
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1841 2012-02-10 20:04:22 <TD> andreas' bitcoin wallet is getting really nice
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1886 2012-02-10 21:59:34 <userggj> hi, the bitcoin design is possible on future allow create keys that can only be spent between them?
1887 2012-02-10 21:59:54 <BlueMatt> ???
1888 2012-02-10 22:01:14 <userggj> example: i create a new key. i create sub keys
1889 2012-02-10 22:01:40 <userggj> i create sub keys from this key
1890 2012-02-10 22:02:13 <userggj> the sub keys can only be spent between sub keys
1891 2012-02-10 22:02:47 Graet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1892 2012-02-10 22:02:55 <userggj> and with the key used to generate the sub keys
1893 2012-02-10 22:02:56 <edcba> and so those bitcoins are lost forever ?
1894 2012-02-10 22:03:04 <edcba> ok not
1895 2012-02-10 22:03:05 <userggj> no
1896 2012-02-10 22:03:55 b4epoche_ has joined
1897 2012-02-10 22:03:55 <userggj> will be somethink like a new economy inside the bitcoin economy
1898 2012-02-10 22:03:59 <edcba> dunno but why do you want such a scheme ?
1899 2012-02-10 22:04:15 <userggj> example:
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1902 2012-02-10 22:04:57 <userggj> i create a closed community, like a small city
1903 2012-02-10 22:05:06 <userggj> with owm economy
1904 2012-02-10 22:05:11 <userggj> own
1905 2012-02-10 22:05:23 <userggj> i buy 100 bitcoins
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1907 2012-02-10 22:06:05 <edcba> why not start your own chain then ?
1908 2012-02-10 22:06:34 <userggj> i can make the bitcoins divide like 0.00000000000001
1909 2012-02-10 22:06:53 <[eval]> userggj: you could have a third party that "governs" this economy that enforces this using multisignature transactions
1910 2012-02-10 22:08:10 <[eval]> meaning, every spend has to be to (and therefore from) a multisignature transaction that includes the enforcer and one of the permitted keys
1911 2012-02-10 22:08:40 <[eval]> there may be other ways of doing this (not sure off the top of my head) but that seems like an easy one, even if it requires an always-online "enforcer"
1912 2012-02-10 22:08:57 <userggj> so multisignature can do what i described?
1913 2012-02-10 22:09:16 <sipa> no, a centralized authority can do so, using multisignatures
1914 2012-02-10 22:10:40 <userggj> but with multis.... i always will need a permission
1915 2012-02-10 22:10:46 <[eval]> yes
1916 2012-02-10 22:11:32 <userggj> i think if were possible creta subkeys will be more free
1917 2012-02-10 22:11:44 <sipa> i don't see why you would want this
1918 2012-02-10 22:11:59 <[eval]> i'm not sure how this would be "more free" considering you're trying to make it more restricted/closed
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1921 2012-02-10 22:12:47 <NxTitle_> am I listening to a description of solidcoin? o.O
1922 2012-02-10 22:12:59 <[eval]> not exactly :P
1923 2012-02-10 22:13:13 <NxTitle_> it sounds scammy so I assumed solidcoin :P
1924 2012-02-10 22:13:17 <userggj> i could use bitcoin infrastructure to a closed community
1925 2012-02-10 22:13:42 <sipa> but why would you prevent this closed community from interacting with 'the rest of the world' ?
1926 2012-02-10 22:14:07 <userggj> with and without being inserted on bitcoin economy
1927 2012-02-10 22:14:33 <sipa> can you be a bit more specific as to what you're trying to achieve?
1928 2012-02-10 22:16:13 <userggj> so i could be part of bitcoin structure. the economy will not be influenced by bitcoin economy. so the trades could be divided 0.0000000000000001
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1931 2012-02-10 22:17:00 <userggj> because the closed economy will be limited for example by 100bt
1932 2012-02-10 22:17:06 <userggj> btc
1933 2012-02-10 22:17:33 molecular has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1934 2012-02-10 22:17:46 <userggj> sipa, my english is not good, sorry. hope you understand what i mean
1935 2012-02-10 22:18:17 molecular has joined
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1939 2012-02-10 22:18:57 <sipa> but why would you want an economy whose value is a) determined by bitcoin's value and b) requires an exchange before being useful outside the closed community
1940 2012-02-10 22:19:48 <PK> every currency needs an exchange before being useful outside the closed community....
1941 2012-02-10 22:20:12 <sipa> good point; the real question is why do you want to keep that community small
1942 2012-02-10 22:20:55 Diablo-D3 has joined
1943 2012-02-10 22:20:59 <PK> better ask: how can we make it grow?
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1947 2012-02-10 22:21:20 <sipa> PK: i think you missed userggj's question
1948 2012-02-10 22:21:31 <userggj> sipa, wait
1949 2012-02-10 22:21:37 <PK> maybe I do.
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1953 2012-02-10 22:24:15 <userggj> sipa, exist poor communities that if you accept a specific money, you have discounts
1954 2012-02-10 22:24:55 <userggj> so they estimulate money not be spent out of the commuity
1955 2012-02-10 22:25:00 <userggj> community
1956 2012-02-10 22:25:12 <Diablo-D3> >estimulate
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1958 2012-02-10 22:25:31 <Diablo-D3> thatsracist.gif
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1961 2012-02-10 22:27:57 <userggj> sipa, a money that is only accepted inside the community, to this little poor economy grow
1962 2012-02-10 22:28:51 <sipa> userggj: there have been succesfull examples of local currencies limited to a small geographical area in the past, but they mostly worked because of lack of trustable large-scale currency; on the other hand, a local currency based on bitcoin would be even harder to trust than bitcoin itself, so imho it would only have disadvantages compared to bitcoin itself
1963 2012-02-10 22:28:57 molecular has joined
1964 2012-02-10 22:29:10 <sipa> without having extra advantages
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1966 2012-02-10 22:30:28 <userggj> on brazil i already saw poor communities created their on currency to peoole buy cheaper and not spend the money out of the c
1967 2012-02-10 22:30:37 molecular has joined
1968 2012-02-10 22:30:46 <userggj> community
1969 2012-02-10 22:30:58 <PK> actually, we have that in switzerland too. The WIR bank issues its own money.
1970 2012-02-10 22:32:27 molecular has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1972 2012-02-10 22:33:39 <userggj> sipa, i don't agree. Real currency is ok on Brazil. the only motive they create this currencies is to estimulate the grow of specific community economy
1973 2012-02-10 22:33:46 <BlueMatt> anyone feel like testing the bitcoin-qt test suite to make sure it compiles/etc: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/807
1974 2012-02-10 22:33:48 pingdrive has joined
1975 2012-02-10 22:34:23 <sipa> userggj: in that case, i think you want an alternate block chain
1976 2012-02-10 22:34:34 <sipa> userggj: not something whose value is determined by bitcoin
1977 2012-02-10 22:34:41 MagicalTux is now known as zz_MagicalTux
1978 2012-02-10 22:35:24 <userggj> sipa, maybe create a new block chain is not easy
1979 2012-02-10 22:35:42 <PK> I agree, make an alternate block chain backed with the amount of bitcoins you bought. Allowing people to trade the alt chain for those BTC you back it with. That will tie the price to the BTC and give it some (whacky) stability. You could also tie it to any other currency, including gold.
1980 2012-02-10 22:36:19 <sipa> userggj: significantly easier than setting up and maintaining a centralized authority to watch transactions within the community
1981 2012-02-10 22:36:29 <userggj> sipa, if this could be implemented with bitcoin, could be great, so newbie users could config this
1982 2012-02-10 22:37:22 <sipa> what you are saying is actually already equal to the ability to remove coins from bitcoin's circulation, and bring them into another currency
1983 2012-02-10 22:37:26 <PK> however, that doesn't give you much advantage over breaking down BTC into smaller fractions. The current transaction free of 0.005 BTC is like 0.025 US$, you can also go 0.000001 which is a fraction for which no coins exist afaik.
1984 2012-02-10 22:37:52 <sipa> "a fraction for which no coins exist" ?
1985 2012-02-10 22:37:56 molecular has quit (Client Quit)
1986 2012-02-10 22:38:10 <PK> sipa: coin as in "solid, real life currency". Minted coins.
1987 2012-02-10 22:38:26 <userggj> sipa, i just would like to know if is possible techinical this on bitcoin
1988 2012-02-10 22:38:36 <userggj> or no
1989 2012-02-10 22:38:59 <NxTitle_> solidcoin ruined the word "solid" in relation to cryptocurrencies
1990 2012-02-10 22:39:14 <sipa> userggj: if you want to do that, you're on your own
1991 2012-02-10 22:39:15 <userggj> and let the idea to who knows be considerable on future
1992 2012-02-10 22:39:26 zz_MagicalTux is now known as MagicalTux
1993 2012-02-10 22:39:27 NxTitle_ is now known as NxTitle
1994 2012-02-10 22:39:32 <sipa> it could be done in bitcoin by a controlling third partu
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1997 2012-02-10 22:40:15 <sipa> but if you ask whether this can be done at the protocol level in bitcoin... no
1998 2012-02-10 22:40:39 <userggj> sipa, thanks for talk
1999 2012-02-10 22:40:54 <userggj> and explanation
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2003 2012-02-10 22:42:36 <userggj> sipa, see www.lietaer.com/2010/05/bancodipalma/
2004 2012-02-10 22:44:17 <Hunterbunter> PK: fiat worlds just inflate money supply so a real world 2c is now worth that amount
2005 2012-02-10 22:45:07 <userggj> sipa, article on wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banco_Palmas
2006 2012-02-10 22:45:28 <sipa> yes, i didn't hear about that particular local currency, but i know they exist
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2008 2012-02-10 22:46:18 <PK> Hunterbunter: over the last 10 years, USD dropped 50% in value compared to the swiss franc, probably more compared to gold. But to go from 2c = 0.000001 BTC you will have to wait a lot longer if you count on inflation alone.
2009 2012-02-10 22:48:40 <Hunterbunter> PK: true, everything is faster electronically :) I was just pointing out the can achieve with integers (eventually) what bitcoins can do quickly with floats
2010 2012-02-10 22:49:28 fpgaminer has joined
2011 2012-02-10 22:50:38 <PK> Hunterbunter: my points was more like "poor community or not, how poor can it possibly get if you need values smaller than the smallest allowed bitcoin fraction."
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2013 2012-02-10 22:52:33 <Hunterbunter> PK: Not just another attempt at protectionism?
2014 2012-02-10 22:52:59 <Hunterbunter> PK: I mean, it doesn't make any sense, but apparently crazier people have tried
2015 2012-02-10 22:53:07 splatster has joined
2016 2012-02-10 22:53:17 <PK> protectionism, yea, that could be it.
2017 2012-02-10 22:54:29 <PK> IIRC, that was the reason why the WIR Bank created the WIR-Geld (CHW). So the local shops could only spend it with local workers.
2018 2012-02-10 22:54:41 barmstrong has joined
2019 2012-02-10 22:54:48 <Hunterbunter> yeah...what it was backed by didn't really matter in the end
2020 2012-02-10 22:55:11 <Hunterbunter> so backing an economy with 100 bitcoisn is, as rightly pointed out above, a bit pointless
2021 2012-02-10 22:55:26 <Hunterbunter> not that you were saying itw asn't
2022 2012-02-10 22:55:43 draco49_ is now known as draco49
2023 2012-02-10 22:57:37 <PK> Imho, every currency must be backed by something. Be it the economy of a country, houses from mortages or simply gold. A currency like bitcoin that is purely defined by speculation is very high risk, imho.
2024 2012-02-10 22:58:06 <sipa> every currency is inherently backed by its own economy, if you use that definition
2025 2012-02-10 22:58:20 <Idiot___> pk, what are houses backed by?
2026 2012-02-10 22:58:32 <sipa> and bitcoin's economy is just extremely small, compared to its use scale
2027 2012-02-10 22:58:50 <Hunterbunter> yeah bitcoins are bad because of the risk factor I mean...far better things to back it by
2028 2012-02-10 22:58:51 <sipa> (by that i mean: it can potentially be used worldwide, but is only used in a tiny fraction of that)
2029 2012-02-10 22:58:52 <josephcp_> at the risk of a derail, it's not that simple. gold has little inherent value, the industrial value is probably less than $50/ounce
2030 2012-02-10 22:59:08 <PK> Idiot___: house don't need to be backed. They have a value in itself. The shelter they provide and the bricks they are built with, plus the land.
2031 2012-02-10 22:59:11 <josephcp_> functionally gold and bitcoin are the same, they're both "commodity money" whos value is derived from their difficulty of forgery and limited value
2032 2012-02-10 22:59:27 <gmaxwell> PK: If bitcoin does become universally used then it will be backed by the vibrance and prosperity of all mankind.
2033 2012-02-10 22:59:38 <Idiot___> pk, if houses dont need to be backed, why do bitcoins?
2034 2012-02-10 22:59:38 <BlueMatt> wump: mind reading/acking the test suite at the bottom of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/807
2035 2012-02-10 22:59:47 <PK> Idiot___: a 100$ bill is just a piece of paper with some colour and maybe some fancy security marks on it. No true value there.
2036 2012-02-10 23:00:02 <Idiot___> pk, bitcoins are built with gpus and are very expensive
2037 2012-02-10 23:00:07 <josephcp_> US Dollar can be understood under Modern Monteary Theory where the value is derived from their taxable base (US Gov owns a 30% preferred share in all individuals/corporations, this preferred share is kown as "taxes")
2038 2012-02-10 23:00:17 <gmaxwell> josephcp_: a significant part of gold's market price is just speculation, it's marginally much cheaper to mine then to buyâ and materials which are compariably rare and compariably industrially useful are far less expensive.
2039 2012-02-10 23:00:18 <PK> Idiot___: No, Bitcoins are just a sequence of numbers.
2040 2012-02-10 23:00:42 <NxTitle> with proof of work behind them
2041 2012-02-10 23:00:44 <Idiot___> pk, houses are just a sequence of bricks]
2042 2012-02-10 23:00:44 <josephcp_> all commodity money is speculation by definition, but that doesn't mean it's not money, all money has been "speculation" before 1970
2043 2012-02-10 23:00:49 <sipa> bitcoins are hard to create, because of mining, but that is not where they derive their value from
2044 2012-02-10 23:01:01 <sipa> if they were not valued by people, there would be little mining
2045 2012-02-10 23:01:37 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: supply side economics are generally bogus. If I buy the hope diamond and smash it into a trillion pieces it was still very expensive to create. The resulting value is not much.
2046 2012-02-10 23:01:57 <josephcp_> yeah you can pay someone a million dollars to dig a really deep ditch, it doesn't mean it's worth a million dollars
2047 2012-02-10 23:02:00 <gmaxwell> Also, as sipa points out the argument that bitcoin's are valuable because they are computationally hard to create is circular.
2048 2012-02-10 23:02:03 <Idiot___> indeed gmaxwell
2049 2012-02-10 23:02:20 <PK> Idiot___: houses = valuable objects, bitcoin = currency. It's not the same.
2050 2012-02-10 23:02:28 <Idiot___> gmaxwell, simularly, if i cut a priceless work of art into tiny squares... its no longer priceless
2051 2012-02-10 23:02:32 <sipa> that is like saying gold is valuable because mining tools are expensive
2052 2012-02-10 23:03:08 <josephcp_> gold is valuable because it's difficult to forge and rare that's about it
2053 2012-02-10 23:03:09 <Idiot___> pk, things dont have to be objects to be valuable
2054 2012-02-10 23:03:14 <NxTitle> bitcoin is not a currency
2055 2012-02-10 23:03:21 <Idiot___> pk, nuclear launch codes are very valuable, but they arent tangible objects
2056 2012-02-10 23:03:30 <josephcp_> if you want a good history of money, you should consider reading David Graeber's "Debt: The First 500 Years"
2057 2012-02-10 23:03:37 <josephcp_> 5000
2058 2012-02-10 23:03:42 <sipa> josephcp_: same is true for bitcoin; resistance against forging and scarcity are far from enough to make something valuable
2059 2012-02-10 23:03:55 <josephcp_> sipa: yep!
2060 2012-02-10 23:04:05 <gmaxwell> "necessary but not sufficient"
2061 2012-02-10 23:04:30 <sipa> gold's value is largely due to gold's value in the past
2062 2012-02-10 23:04:37 <PK> Idiot___: yea, but thus nuclear codes are even more high risk that bitcoins. Because they are more likely to become worthless if someone changes the code, literally rendering them back to their inner value.
2063 2012-02-10 23:05:56 <gmaxwell> There is an interesting notion of looking at bitcoin as a local-currency-of-the-internet with many of the same arguments (applied in both directions) to other local currencies.
2064 2012-02-10 23:06:33 <PK> sipa: like magic the gathering cards (and probably pokemon and any other, similar trading / collecting cards game). People want them, they are scares and thus valuable.
2065 2012-02-10 23:06:49 <Idiot___> oh yeh
2066 2012-02-10 23:06:54 <Idiot___> i love magic the gathering cards
2067 2012-02-10 23:07:12 <Idiot___> ohh, ohh, you guys remember pogs?
2068 2012-02-10 23:07:13 <gmaxwell> PK: the scarcity of those things is not as good, e.g. as the scarcity of bitcoin... simply because the maker _can_ dork with it at all.
2069 2012-02-10 23:07:28 <gmaxwell> s/all/will/ (all works too though)
2070 2012-02-10 23:07:28 <sipa> PK: i have created a unique currency; it consists of the leaf of a tree in my garden; it is extremely rare, and hard to forge
2071 2012-02-10 23:07:30 <Idiot___> the moon is scarce and difficult to make forgeries
2072 2012-02-10 23:07:35 <Idiot___> how much value does it have?
2073 2012-02-10 23:07:49 <PK> gmaxwell: perhaps, but it has the same risk. If the customers lose interest, they are worthless.
2074 2012-02-10 23:07:56 <helo> is it not enough to say supply relative to demand creates value?
2075 2012-02-10 23:08:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones
2076 2012-02-10 23:08:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: i know
2077 2012-02-10 23:08:33 <Diablo-D3> holy shit
2078 2012-02-10 23:08:36 <Diablo-D3> thats a huge currency
2079 2012-02-10 23:08:47 <PK> Idiot___: iirc, there was a possibility to buy moon land, maybe there still is. The question is, who is allowed to sell it? NASA? Why?
2080 2012-02-10 23:08:54 <Idiot___> hey diablo-d3
2081 2012-02-10 23:08:58 <sipa> Diablo-D3: yeah, if anything is worthy of the name "solidcoin" ...
2082 2012-02-10 23:08:59 <Idiot___> what does d3 stsand for? dumb-3?
2083 2012-02-10 23:09:00 <gmaxwell> PK: yes, but surely that risk is greater: I'm not going to treat my rare mtg cards as valuable if the maker starts dumping more on the market.
2084 2012-02-10 23:09:53 colin_ has joined
2085 2012-02-10 23:10:28 <gmaxwell> PK: International treaty prohibits any nation from owning land on the moon. Some fruitcake (Dennis Hope) claims to own it due to some ruleslawyering with the applicable laws.
2086 2012-02-10 23:11:01 <Diablo-D3> okay so
2087 2012-02-10 23:11:05 <Diablo-D3> after bitcoin and nmc
2088 2012-02-10 23:11:09 <Diablo-D3> whats the most popular chain?
2089 2012-02-10 23:11:21 <Idiot___> yourmumCoin
2090 2012-02-10 23:11:27 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: ahem.
2091 2012-02-10 23:11:37 <Idiot___> ohs sorry
2092 2012-02-10 23:11:44 <NxTitle> Diablo-D3: I'd say litecoin
2093 2012-02-10 23:11:50 <NxTitle> however that's just an opinion
2094 2012-02-10 23:12:06 <sipa> how do you measure popularity?
2095 2012-02-10 23:12:12 <NxTitle> ^
2096 2012-02-10 23:12:20 <sipa> hash power?
2097 2012-02-10 23:12:30 <NxTitle> probably most usage
2098 2012-02-10 23:12:38 <gmaxwell> I'd say chain size... except then the most spammed wins.
2099 2012-02-10 23:12:55 <PK> gmaxwell: yea, but only 13 countries agreed to that, afaik
2100 2012-02-10 23:13:11 <sipa> also, how to compare scrypt-based hashing power with sha256-based hashing power?
2101 2012-02-10 23:13:28 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2102 2012-02-10 23:13:41 <NxTitle> gmaxwell: litecoin is 4x faster than bitcoin in terms of blocks
2103 2012-02-10 23:13:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: hard in several waysâ can you call 10watts of stolen hashing power the same as 10watts of bought hashing power?
2104 2012-02-10 23:14:00 <Diablo-D3> hrm
2105 2012-02-10 23:14:53 pickett has joined
2106 2012-02-10 23:15:15 <PK> gmaxwell: basically it comes down to the question of who owns the USA? who owns the UK? Too simple? Who owns Libya? Who owns Sea Land? Probably the one who can defend their claim by force.
2107 2012-02-10 23:15:43 <gmaxwell> so .. 158 nicks in #litecoin00 31 in solidcoin00 (can't get reads on namecoin and bitcoin, too big)
2108 2012-02-10 23:15:50 <Idiot___> i own jupitor
2109 2012-02-10 23:16:31 <gmaxwell> 7 in rucoin00
2110 2012-02-10 23:16:31 <Diablo-D3> okay so
2111 2012-02-10 23:16:47 <Diablo-D3> why havent I written a litecoin miner yet so I can 51% attack their shit
2112 2012-02-10 23:16:53 <PK> Idiot___: then I want to own the sun and you pay me for daylight! (and moonlight too) :)
2113 2012-02-10 23:16:59 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2114 2012-02-10 23:17:09 plutonic_ has joined
2115 2012-02-10 23:17:17 <Idiot___> u cant own the sun... its too hot
2116 2012-02-10 23:17:22 * sipa patents sun-based hydrogen fusion
2117 2012-02-10 23:17:44 <NxTitle> Diablo-D3: why would you want to do that?
2118 2012-02-10 23:17:44 <gmaxwell> #i0coin00 14 #devcoin 8 #fairbrix00 1 #ixcoin00 1 #liquidcoin00 13 #geistgeld 13
2119 2012-02-10 23:17:55 <Diablo-D3> why shouldnt I =/
2120 2012-02-10 23:18:03 <NxTitle> what's with the 00 at the end? o.O
2121 2012-02-10 23:18:04 * gmaxwell sues sipa for running an unshelded fusion reactor which gives lots of people cancer
2122 2012-02-10 23:18:13 <NxTitle> Diablo-D3: because it's a legitimate chain?
2123 2012-02-10 23:18:32 <NxTitle> infinitely more legitimate than just about any other chain out there
2124 2012-02-10 23:18:41 <Diablo-D3> legitimate my ass
2125 2012-02-10 23:18:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: you have to sue the solar authority; i do not exploit said process, i'm merely a patent troll
2126 2012-02-10 23:18:46 <PK> Idiot___: it's ok. I can handle that. I'm "cool" like that :)
2127 2012-02-10 23:18:49 <Diablo-D3> its made by a bunch of fucktards who dont understand how computers work
2128 2012-02-10 23:18:51 <NxTitle> I could almost argue more legitimate than bitcoin depending on your definition of premining
2129 2012-02-10 23:18:52 <gmaxwell> NxTitle: the ircseed channels are split upâ for bitcoin this made sense, for the rest its stupid and makes irc less useful for them but they weren't competent enough to fix it.
2130 2012-02-10 23:19:00 colin_ is now known as c00w
2131 2012-02-10 23:19:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: hehe
2132 2012-02-10 23:19:14 <NxTitle> gmaxwell: interesting
2133 2012-02-10 23:19:44 <NxTitle> who knows - maybe litecoin could make it big
2134 2012-02-10 23:19:55 <Diablo-D3> not if I end up writing a gpu miner that fucks their shit
2135 2012-02-10 23:20:04 <Diablo-D3> Ill be an asshole and share it with gmaxwell only
2136 2012-02-10 23:20:05 <NxTitle> then do it, tough guy ;)
2137 2012-02-10 23:20:07 plutonic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2138 2012-02-10 23:20:08 plutonic_ is now known as plutonic
2139 2012-02-10 23:20:10 <gmaxwell> NxTitle: most of the altcoins are just junk technically. they don't bother changing out our seendnodes or correctly making the compensating changes for the things they do change.
2140 2012-02-10 23:20:18 <Ahimoth> gmaxwell... solidcoin still uses multiple channels.. so its got 129 advertized nodes right now
2141 2012-02-10 23:20:18 B0g4r7 has joined
2142 2012-02-10 23:20:30 <sipa> Diablo-D3: a gpu miner for a scrypt-based chain?
2143 2012-02-10 23:20:36 <gmaxwell> Ahimoth: yes, I was just reporting on the 00 channels for the most that have multiple.
2144 2012-02-10 23:20:37 <NxTitle> Ahimoth: 128 of them are RealSolid
2145 2012-02-10 23:20:47 <Diablo-D3> sipa: nothing stops me
2146 2012-02-10 23:20:47 <Ahimoth> heh
2147 2012-02-10 23:20:53 <NxTitle> Diablo-D3: also, I don't think you understand how scrypt works
2148 2012-02-10 23:20:55 RedEmerald has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2149 2012-02-10 23:20:57 <NxTitle> but okay
2150 2012-02-10 23:20:58 <Diablo-D3> NxTitle: oh, I do.
2151 2012-02-10 23:21:02 <NxTitle> I'd like to see this gpu miner
2152 2012-02-10 23:21:02 RedEmerald has joined
2153 2012-02-10 23:21:05 <Diablo-D3> you just dont realize how awesome I am
2154 2012-02-10 23:21:10 <Ahimoth> NxTitle, I don't think you do... we have a scrypt gpu miner
2155 2012-02-10 23:21:27 agath has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2156 2012-02-10 23:21:28 <NxTitle> Ahimoth: and how well does it run compared to a bitcoin gpu miner?
2157 2012-02-10 23:21:30 <NxTitle> :P
2158 2012-02-10 23:21:31 <gmaxwell> NxTitle: it's not magical anti-gpu pixie dust. E.g. I'm quite confident that the scrypt used on these chains would be quite fast on larrabee / intel mic.
2159 2012-02-10 23:21:49 <Ahimoth> I would not compare it to bitcoin.. I would compare it to scrypt on cpu
2160 2012-02-10 23:21:51 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: dude
2161 2012-02-10 23:22:01 <NxTitle> Ahimoth: then it's doing its job
2162 2012-02-10 23:22:02 <Diablo-D3> I bet i could make it run quickly on my 5850
2163 2012-02-10 23:22:07 <Diablo-D3> their memory size thingy isnt big enough
2164 2012-02-10 23:22:14 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: I'm just not sure of that.
2165 2012-02-10 23:22:15 <Diablo-D3> although this, sadly, means no more memory underclock
2166 2012-02-10 23:22:20 <NxTitle> scrypt scratchpad
2167 2012-02-10 23:22:39 <gmaxwell> But I'm pretty sure that intel mic would be quite fast, each core has more than enough local memory to run their scrypt.
2168 2012-02-10 23:22:47 <gmaxwell> Also, CELL should be darn fast for basically the same reason.
2169 2012-02-10 23:22:50 <PK> Diablo-D3: ask the people in #bitcoin-fpga. They managed to force three bitcoin rounds into their xc6sxl150 chips. Maybe they can fit one scrypt round in it making a 200 MH/s litecoin miner.
2170 2012-02-10 23:22:58 <gmaxwell> (though not as fast as MIC)
2171 2012-02-10 23:23:10 <Ahimoth> you can run scrypt on fpga, you just need to add a memory module
2172 2012-02-10 23:23:16 <Diablo-D3> how much local memory is it using?
2173 2012-02-10 23:23:23 <Ahimoth> 128k
2174 2012-02-10 23:23:37 <Diablo-D3> what, seriously?
2175 2012-02-10 23:23:38 <gmaxwell> PK: I specifically accused art of intentionally sizing it to fit on S6LX150, and he said he didn't do so and that it wouldn't quite fit.
2176 2012-02-10 23:23:39 <Diablo-D3> dear fucking shit
2177 2012-02-10 23:23:48 <Diablo-D3> I may not even need global memory
2178 2012-02-10 23:24:00 <PK> Ahimoth: either a memory module or just a badass amount of slices :)
2179 2012-02-10 23:24:01 <sipa> what? 128k?
2180 2012-02-10 23:24:06 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2181 2012-02-10 23:24:07 <Diablo-D3> I could wedge this into LDS or some shit
2182 2012-02-10 23:24:07 <sipa> what's the point of that?
2183 2012-02-10 23:24:11 <Diablo-D3> like a boss
2184 2012-02-10 23:24:14 <Ahimoth> hahah.. well you would need a lot of slices
2185 2012-02-10 23:24:19 <Ahimoth> so external mem is preferrable
2186 2012-02-10 23:24:21 <NxTitle> they only have a 128k scratchpad? o.O
2187 2012-02-10 23:24:26 <Ahimoth> currently
2188 2012-02-10 23:24:31 <Diablo-D3> okay, I should start a new donation thread
2189 2012-02-10 23:24:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: make it fail on current GPUs... make it not thrash l2 so bad that a botnet can't get away with it. :(
2190 2012-02-10 23:24:36 <Ahimoth> it sould easily be increased
2191 2012-02-10 23:24:38 <Diablo-D3> 1000 BTC, and Ill produce a litecoin gpu miner
2192 2012-02-10 23:24:45 * Diablo-D3 SHALL BE RICH
2193 2012-02-10 23:24:49 <NxTitle> nonetheless, the memory speed/throughput makes more of a difference
2194 2012-02-10 23:25:47 RazielZ has joined
2195 2012-02-10 23:25:53 <Ahimoth> someone on the bitcointalk thread RealSolid posted, did some math, and is saying that theoretically the speeds we are reporting on scrypt gpu miner makes sense
2196 2012-02-10 23:25:57 <Diablo-D3> whats the hashrate on a cpu with litecoin?
2197 2012-02-10 23:26:10 <NxTitle> depends heavily on make
2198 2012-02-10 23:26:17 <Ahimoth> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63365.msg742064#msg742064
2199 2012-02-10 23:26:18 <NxTitle> an i7 in my experience gets about 12 KH/s
2200 2012-02-10 23:26:20 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
2201 2012-02-10 23:26:21 <Diablo-D3> LOL
2202 2012-02-10 23:26:23 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: 7kh/s per core now on fast cpus.
2203 2012-02-10 23:26:24 <Diablo-D3> 12kh?!
2204 2012-02-10 23:26:26 <PK> ah, just ask your friendly neighborhood hacker if you can borrow his/her botnet for a little litecoin mining.
2205 2012-02-10 23:26:27 <Diablo-D3> bwhahaha
2206 2012-02-10 23:26:28 <Diablo-D3> oh fuck dude
2207 2012-02-10 23:26:40 <Diablo-D3> I bet I could get like 50 kh/sec
2208 2012-02-10 23:26:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: well it's doing more, there is internal iteration.
2209 2012-02-10 23:26:49 <Diablo-D3> infact
2210 2012-02-10 23:26:53 <Diablo-D3> I could get UNLIMITED KHASHES
2211 2012-02-10 23:26:55 <NxTitle> Diablo-D3: at one point I had well over 400
2212 2012-02-10 23:26:58 <Diablo-D3> because Im that awesome
2213 2012-02-10 23:27:00 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: then do it! you could earn whole bitcents with a faster litecoin miner!
2214 2012-02-10 23:27:01 <NxTitle> at the time it was about 10% of the entire network
2215 2012-02-10 23:27:13 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: wait, theres a market for litecoins?
2216 2012-02-10 23:27:19 <NxTitle> btc-e
2217 2012-02-10 23:27:28 <Diablo-D3> if theres a market, Im not going to do it
2218 2012-02-10 23:27:34 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yea, it's strong like a wet paper bag.
2219 2012-02-10 23:27:36 <NxTitle> and some other payments site accepts both litecoin and bitcoin
2220 2012-02-10 23:27:43 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2221 2012-02-10 23:27:43 <Diablo-D3> I only wanna blow up useless chains
2222 2012-02-10 23:27:52 <NxTitle> blow up solidcoin ;)
2223 2012-02-10 23:28:08 <Diablo-D3> meh
2224 2012-02-10 23:28:11 <gmaxwell> leave solidcoin alone.
2225 2012-02-10 23:28:16 <PK> blow up bitcoin...
2226 2012-02-10 23:28:16 * PK runs and hides
2227 2012-02-10 23:28:17 <gmaxwell> It's an awesome expirement.
2228 2012-02-10 23:28:22 <Diablo-D3> okay so
2229 2012-02-10 23:28:30 <Diablo-D3> does anyone have an existing write up of how scrypt works?
2230 2012-02-10 23:28:36 <gmaxwell> How untrustworthy can you make a cryptocurrency and have it still have users? Turns out... very!
2231 2012-02-10 23:28:38 MagicalTux has quit (Excess Flood)
2232 2012-02-10 23:28:39 <josephcp_> experiment.... in megalomania?
2233 2012-02-10 23:29:00 <sipa> http://www.tarsnap.com/scrypt/scrypt.pdf
2234 2012-02-10 23:29:02 josephcp_ is now known as josephcp
2235 2012-02-10 23:29:02 <NxTitle> Diablo-D3: there should be a paper on it on the tarsnap website
2236 2012-02-10 23:29:06 <NxTitle> yeah
2237 2012-02-10 23:29:10 <Idiot___> people want a currency that works, not a currency thats trustworthy
2238 2012-02-10 23:29:17 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: or just look at the code in litecoin.
2239 2012-02-10 23:29:18 josephcp has quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
2240 2012-02-10 23:29:26 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: then use paypal.
2241 2012-02-10 23:29:29 <sipa> Idiot___: gold doesn't "work", but it is extremely trustworthy
2242 2012-02-10 23:29:31 josephcp has joined
2243 2012-02-10 23:29:32 <NxTitle> paypal doesn't work
2244 2012-02-10 23:29:37 josephcp has quit (Changing host)
2245 2012-02-10 23:29:37 josephcp has joined
2246 2012-02-10 23:29:50 <NxTitle> :P
2247 2012-02-10 23:29:53 <Idiot___> paypal is broke by design
2248 2012-02-10 23:29:57 <NxTitle> alright, sleep time for me
2249 2012-02-10 23:30:02 <gmaxwell> if you made a table comparing SC and paypal, what advantage would sc have?
2250 2012-02-10 23:30:26 <PK> less fees?
2251 2012-02-10 23:30:41 <Idiot___> are we talking sc3.0?
2252 2012-02-10 23:30:44 <gmaxwell> PK: no, the fees are mandatory and now fairly high (At least vs mining amounts)
2253 2012-02-10 23:30:49 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hrm
2254 2012-02-10 23:30:50 <Diablo-D3> afk food
2255 2012-02-10 23:30:55 <NxTitle> gmaxwell: sc has a man with a god complex behind it
2256 2012-02-10 23:31:07 <PK> gmaxwell: that was the only thigh I could think of. So none.
2257 2012-02-10 23:31:09 Guest78740 has joined
2258 2012-02-10 23:31:16 <NxTitle> aand... afaik sc is also reversible by him
2259 2012-02-10 23:31:19 <gmaxwell> NxTitle: so does paypal (Peter Thiel)
2260 2012-02-10 23:31:26 <NxTitle> oh right
2261 2012-02-10 23:31:33 <gmaxwell> Yes, SC reversed the mooncoin thefts.
2262 2012-02-10 23:31:50 <NxTitle> paypal deals with USD, sc doesn't
2263 2012-02-10 23:31:57 <PK> Maybe not requiring credit card or bank account information? Paypal is a pain about that due to anti moneylaundry stuff.
2264 2012-02-10 23:32:11 <NxTitle> that too
2265 2012-02-10 23:32:19 <gmaxwell> NxTitle: SC is attempting to fix their value vs the dollar but failing so far, does that count?
2266 2012-02-10 23:32:27 <NxTitle> however bitcoin is fairly easy to track
2267 2012-02-10 23:32:27 <sipa> pseudonimity probably remains as an advantage
2268 2012-02-10 23:32:30 <PK> actually SC is its own currency while paypal uses mutliple other currencies.
2269 2012-02-10 23:32:33 <NxTitle> especially when one uses mtgox
2270 2012-02-10 23:32:39 <Eliel> Diablo-D3: mtrlt has (well, at least had) a working scrypt implementation for GPU. I don't think he's published it though. With it, 6990 got 2.3 timer more hashes per watt than the best CPUs.
2271 2012-02-10 23:32:43 <NxTitle> gmaxwell: xD oh wow
2272 2012-02-10 23:32:51 <gmaxwell> PK: paypal lets you do 10k in transactions without that stuff. You'd totally collapse SC trying to do 10k of business with it.
2273 2012-02-10 23:33:32 <gmaxwell> okay, pseudonimity ... hm. yea. sc probably has more than paypal.
2274 2012-02-10 23:33:35 <Idiot___> wait a min, ive been looking at the solidcoin website
2275 2012-02-10 23:33:39 <Idiot___> its got 51% attack protection
2276 2012-02-10 23:33:41 <Idiot___> thats quite good
2277 2012-02-10 23:33:58 <PK> gmaxwell: yea, you tell me. I tried to open an account for my parents because I was sick of them asking if I could pay their stuff. I sent them 50$ on a brand new account, no problem. They could never spend it because they didn't register a bank account or credit card to verify their account.
2278 2012-02-10 23:33:59 <NxTitle> it's also controlled by one person/entity
2279 2012-02-10 23:34:35 <NxTitle> I'd rather the possibility of a 51% attack than the possibility of someone reversing my funds if they happen to not like me
2280 2012-02-10 23:34:47 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: it doesn't really. It has 'protection' by having a constant fixed/built in majority attack that can't go away.
2281 2012-02-10 23:34:48 <sipa> Idiot___: it has a 51% protection that requires a 0.0001% dlaw
2282 2012-02-10 23:35:22 <NxTitle> dlaw?
2283 2012-02-10 23:35:39 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: basically the 0.01% of solidcoin that controls the 10 million sc premine accounts has full veto over the chain like a 50% attacker.
2284 2012-02-10 23:35:43 <sipa> flaw
2285 2012-02-10 23:35:49 <NxTitle> ah
2286 2012-02-10 23:36:00 JRWR has joined
2287 2012-02-10 23:36:10 <gmaxwell> paypal is also 50% attack immune for much the same reason and same consequences. :)
2288 2012-02-10 23:36:15 <Eliel> Idiot___: sure, solidcoins 51% protection involves having centralized authorities make every second block :P
2289 2012-02-10 23:36:22 Guest78740 is now known as MagicalTux
2290 2012-02-10 23:36:24 MagicalTux has quit (Changing host)
2291 2012-02-10 23:36:25 MagicalTux has joined
2292 2012-02-10 23:36:37 <gmaxwell> Eliel: every block at their option... since they can choose to extend only their own chain.
2293 2012-02-10 23:36:38 <NxTitle> IMO solidcoin is already 51% attacked
2294 2012-02-10 23:36:39 <sipa> which makes you wonder why to keep a decentralized block chain in the first place
2295 2012-02-10 23:36:45 <NxTitle> it's consistently 51%d
2296 2012-02-10 23:36:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: because you're more comfortable marketing against bitcoin than paypal, of course. :)
2297 2012-02-10 23:38:07 PK has quit ()
2298 2012-02-10 23:38:53 <Idiot___> i donno why your all against solidcoin
2299 2012-02-10 23:38:55 <Idiot___> they have some good ideas
2300 2012-02-10 23:38:59 <Eliel> oh true, that's a good point. Solidcoin isn't protected from a 51% attack. it's 51% attack is monopolized to a centralized entity.
2301 2012-02-10 23:39:03 <Idiot___> how else are we supposed to stop 51% attacks?
2302 2012-02-10 23:39:29 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: ...
2303 2012-02-10 23:40:05 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: use paypal. It has the same trust properties as solidcoin except it's run by upstanding people who are well known, rather than anonymous online thugs.
2304 2012-02-10 23:40:06 <schilly> centralized power corrupts -> hence decentralize -> solve power of overpowering decentralization by centralization -> loop
2305 2012-02-10 23:40:27 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2306 2012-02-10 23:40:28 <josephcp> also known as the conflict between modernism and post-modernism?
2307 2012-02-10 23:40:57 <gmaxwell> josephcp: spatula.
2308 2012-02-10 23:41:02 <Idiot___> i like to be on the forefront of technology, paypal is old news
2309 2012-02-10 23:41:08 <Idiot___> plus they freeze accounts for stupid reasons
2310 2012-02-10 23:41:10 <NxTitle> Idiot___: we need methods to stop 51% attacks on _decentralized_ networks
2311 2012-02-10 23:41:14 <NxTitle> solidcoin doesn't fit the definition
2312 2012-02-10 23:41:35 <gmaxwell> NxTitle: meh, need is the wrong word there.
2313 2012-02-10 23:41:36 <Idiot___> solidcoin is still partly decentralised
2314 2012-02-10 23:41:40 <sipa> solidcoin is the cost of running a blockchain without getting the advantage of centralization
2315 2012-02-10 23:41:49 <NxTitle> gmaxwell: true
2316 2012-02-10 23:42:08 JRWR has joined
2317 2012-02-10 23:42:09 <NxTitle> we need to split [Tycho] into 2 people :P
2318 2012-02-10 23:42:14 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: no, not relative to trust. It's just decenteralized enough to have all the suckyness of decenteralization.
2319 2012-02-10 23:43:07 <[Tycho]> We are already 2 or more.
2320 2012-02-10 23:43:12 <NxTitle> :O
2321 2012-02-10 23:43:22 <Idiot___> did you know solidcoin has a coin protection fund? bitcoin doesnt have that :)
2322 2012-02-10 23:43:25 <Idiot___> that makes me feel safer
2323 2012-02-10 23:43:33 <[Tycho]> Solidcoin, lol.
2324 2012-02-10 23:43:37 <NxTitle> Idiot___: did you know your nickname suits you well?
2325 2012-02-10 23:43:53 <NxTitle> lol [Tycho] - you chop off his head, 2 more grow in the same spot
2326 2012-02-10 23:43:55 <Idiot___> thx nx
2327 2012-02-10 23:43:57 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: you'd rather 5% (or whatever it was) of all coins mined were forever directed to some guy so he could use it to buy dos attacks?
2328 2012-02-10 23:44:02 <josephcp> honestly solidcoin is doing bitcoin a big favor. the loudest/biggest altchain is run by a wackjob with no idea what he's doing, way better than having solidcoin not exist and have a competent altchain maintainer
2329 2012-02-10 23:44:30 <Idiot___> hmm i donno
2330 2012-02-10 23:44:35 <gmaxwell> josephcp: I look at it another wayâ we can't look at bitcoin's userbase as evidence that we're doing things right.
2331 2012-02-10 23:44:44 <gmaxwell> Because apparently people will believe in just about anything.
2332 2012-02-10 23:45:02 <gmaxwell> It's valuable to remind all of us of that.
2333 2012-02-10 23:45:09 <josephcp> hahaha
2334 2012-02-10 23:46:04 <Idiot___> i think you put solid coin down too much, its doing well
2335 2012-02-10 23:46:07 <Idiot___> its got like 3 exchanges
2336 2012-02-10 23:46:20 <Idiot___> that means the market trusts it enough to value it
2337 2012-02-10 23:46:26 <NxTitle> Idiot___: I think you're either RealSolid or you're paid by him
2338 2012-02-10 23:46:28 <gmaxwell> Eliel: er, that scrypt on a gpu claim is not exactly coming from a reliable source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63365.0
2339 2012-02-10 23:46:34 <josephcp> well i'm coming from the perspective that splitting work in multiple chains is a cost, but yeah...
2340 2012-02-10 23:46:42 <gmaxwell> NxTitle: he's way too humble. Relax.
2341 2012-02-10 23:46:42 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: dare you to taunt RealSolid in #solidcoin <.<
2342 2012-02-10 23:47:06 <NxTitle> because centralization in a decentralized chain is _not_ a good thing, Idiot___ - and I don't know why you think it is
2343 2012-02-10 23:47:25 <Idiot___> its currently 0.05usd per solidcoin which is quite good considering the stage their at
2344 2012-02-10 23:47:26 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: I don't care about it enough.
2345 2012-02-10 23:47:55 <luke-jr> Idiot___: you mean the illegal stage?
2346 2012-02-10 23:48:01 <Eliel> gmaxwell: it's coming from someone I know in RL, who wrote it themselves.
2347 2012-02-10 23:48:03 <Ahimoth> as long as you don't come into #solidcoin and repeat the same line over and over again, we're pretty tolerant
2348 2012-02-10 23:48:09 <luke-jr> Idiot___: hint: Bitcoin was never illegal
2349 2012-02-10 23:48:12 paraipan has joined
2350 2012-02-10 23:48:20 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: liar
2351 2012-02-10 23:48:23 <Idiot___> solidcoin is illegal?
2352 2012-02-10 23:48:26 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: RealSolid bans people for *no reason*
2353 2012-02-10 23:48:27 <NxTitle> ^
2354 2012-02-10 23:48:27 <Ahimoth> ouch
2355 2012-02-10 23:48:28 <luke-jr> Idiot___: yes
2356 2012-02-10 23:48:36 <Idiot___> why?
2357 2012-02-10 23:48:36 <NxTitle> oh
2358 2012-02-10 23:48:37 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: the market is pretty shallow.
2359 2012-02-10 23:48:40 <luke-jr> Idiot___: copyright infringement
2360 2012-02-10 23:48:40 <NxTitle> it's the copyright stuff
2361 2012-02-10 23:48:54 <gmaxwell> Idiot___: not the currency itself but the software has continued copyright problems for really stupid reasons.
2362 2012-02-10 23:49:07 <NxTitle> luke dashjr DMCA'd them because realsolid is too stupid to put bsd headers in his code
2363 2012-02-10 23:49:19 <Idiot___> isnt it a good thing that realsolid isnt afraid of the law?
2364 2012-02-10 23:49:23 <luke-jr> Idiot___: no
2365 2012-02-10 23:49:23 <NxTitle> ...
2366 2012-02-10 23:49:27 <luke-jr> Idiot___: the law is good
2367 2012-02-10 23:49:35 <gmaxwell> (because basically RS wants to claim he isn't mostly bitcoin code so he stripped all the copyright headers, and didn't fix it after being asked and warned)
2368 2012-02-10 23:49:45 <Ahimoth> well we removed bdb, and ther's not gonna be too much of the original bitcoin code left in there soon
2369 2012-02-10 23:49:46 <BlueMatt> yea, the fact that solidcoin cant comply with mit license terms is pretty damn sad
2370 2012-02-10 23:50:07 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: guess what, it's still a derivative work under copyright law
2371 2012-02-10 23:50:15 <BlueMatt> I mean its sooo damn easy...
2372 2012-02-10 23:50:17 <Eliel> gmaxwell: and no, the source of my info is not RealSolid. But very likely the same source he has.
2373 2012-02-10 23:50:19 <gmaxwell> Ahimoth: it's just stupid. the mit license is so easy to comply with.
2374 2012-02-10 23:50:21 btc_novice has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2375 2012-02-10 23:50:29 <Ahimoth> well i'm not in charge of that part
2376 2012-02-10 23:50:50 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: explain why RealSolid has banned me and a number of other people for no reason whatsoever?
2377 2012-02-10 23:50:55 <Ahimoth> and I'm not gonna go into the argument
2378 2012-02-10 23:50:58 trigliu has joined
2379 2012-02-10 23:51:00 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: because you can be annoying? :)
2380 2012-02-10 23:51:06 <Ahimoth> umm luke, we only have 4 bans in our channel
2381 2012-02-10 23:51:13 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: no, I was *completely silent* before he banned me the first time
2382 2012-02-10 23:51:14 <Ahimoth> two of which were amazon ec2 nodes
2383 2012-02-10 23:51:40 <Ahimoth> oh, sorry 5 bans
2384 2012-02-10 23:51:54 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: explain why SolidCoin engages in botnet DDoS attacks large enough to perk the FBI's interest?
2385 2012-02-10 23:52:14 <[Tycho]> How was FBI interested in that ?
2386 2012-02-10 23:52:21 <Ahimoth> we don't engage in ddos attacks
2387 2012-02-10 23:52:26 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: there's an ongoing investigation
2388 2012-02-10 23:52:31 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: tell it to the judge
2389 2012-02-10 23:52:32 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: caused by what ?
2390 2012-02-10 23:52:39 m00p has joined
2391 2012-02-10 23:52:45 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: they've been DDoSing Eligius for over 72 hours now
2392 2012-02-10 23:52:45 <Ahimoth> luke thinks realsolid had something to do with his pool ddos yesterday
2393 2012-02-10 23:52:47 <BlueMatt> someone really should take realsolid to court and make him take down solidcoin.info
2394 2012-02-10 23:52:47 <sipa> luke-jr: do you know it comes from sc?
2395 2012-02-10 23:52:53 <BlueMatt> (just because it would be funny)
2396 2012-02-10 23:52:58 <luke-jr> sipa: I have good reason to believe it does.
2397 2012-02-10 23:53:09 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I took down solidcoin.info legally twice
2398 2012-02-10 23:53:24 <BlueMatt> you mean by dmcaing the host?
2399 2012-02-10 23:53:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: to get it put back up, RealSolid was (legally) required to file a counter-claim, exposing his legal name/address to me for a civil suit
2400 2012-02-10 23:53:35 <luke-jr> instead, he moved the servers to Germany
2401 2012-02-10 23:53:46 <BlueMatt> you can still sue him there too
2402 2012-02-10 23:53:52 <luke-jr> (also, if he made the counter-claim, he'd be liable for perjury criminal charges)
2403 2012-02-10 23:54:30 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: perhaps, but it's difficult without a name/address
2404 2012-02-10 23:54:32 <BlueMatt> who actually uses solidcoin?
2405 2012-02-10 23:54:34 <Ahimoth> BlueMatt: germany is a bit more difficult to get dmca working
2406 2012-02-10 23:54:44 <Ahimoth> they don't just assume its a valid claim
2407 2012-02-10 23:54:48 <BlueMatt> Ahimoth: well yea, but you still cant violate mit in germany
2408 2012-02-10 23:54:57 <BlueMatt> no dmca, but you can still sue them to ehll
2409 2012-02-10 23:55:04 <BlueMatt> s/ehll/hell/
2410 2012-02-10 23:55:07 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: DMCA doesn't assume it's a valid claim either
2411 2012-02-10 23:55:17 * Idiot___ abuses mit a bit
2412 2012-02-10 23:55:34 <josephcp> if the domain registrar is in the US, they sometimes will also follow through with DMCA complaints
2413 2012-02-10 23:55:35 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: if my claim wasn't valid, RS could have filed a counter-claim and had it back online; and I'd be liable for perjury
2414 2012-02-10 23:55:43 * Idiot___ likes abusing cute/little things
2415 2012-02-10 23:55:43 <luke-jr> the fact is, my claim WAS/IS valid
2416 2012-02-10 23:55:51 <FROTUSCI> this sounds like the bitcoin trial of the century!
2417 2012-02-10 23:55:57 <luke-jr> josephcp: good idea, maybe I should ping GoDaddy
2418 2012-02-10 23:56:04 <BlueMatt> FROTUSCI: except bitcoin wouldnt be on trial...
2419 2012-02-10 23:56:07 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: go for it
2420 2012-02-10 23:56:18 <josephcp> whois says eNom
2421 2012-02-10 23:56:33 <luke-jr> oh
2422 2012-02-10 23:56:33 <Ahimoth> luke: if he did file counter-claim, he would have to relase his identity.. why would he do that? when he could just fix the problem
2423 2012-02-10 23:56:36 <luke-jr> what's eNom?
2424 2012-02-10 23:56:41 <josephcp> domain registrar like godaddy
2425 2012-02-10 23:56:43 <BlueMatt> http://www.enom.com/
2426 2012-02-10 23:56:45 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: he *is* the problem
2427 2012-02-10 23:56:47 JimRogers has left ()
2428 2012-02-10 23:56:48 <Ahimoth> heh
2429 2012-02-10 23:57:08 <Idiot___> cant u just dmca takedown the domain name?
2430 2012-02-10 23:57:12 <luke-jr> Ahimoth: if you want Solidcoin to succeed, the first step is to get rid of RealSolid
2431 2012-02-10 23:57:18 <josephcp> which is why you see a lot of people moving to european TLDs, godaddy is notorious for following DMCA complains even when they don't have to
2432 2012-02-10 23:57:22 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: so you contacted FBI yourself ?
2433 2012-02-10 23:57:31 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: no, that was wizkid's employer
2434 2012-02-10 23:57:57 <[Tycho]> Who is wizkid ?
2435 2012-02-10 23:58:09 <BlueMatt> Ahimoth: why on earth would you want solidcoin to succeed?
2436 2012-02-10 23:58:15 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: he operates a rather large network
2437 2012-02-10 23:58:32 <Ahimoth> because I think the reward model is more fair
2438 2012-02-10 23:58:35 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: legal@enom.com
2439 2012-02-10 23:58:43 <gmaxwell> Ahimoth: which version of the reward model?
2440 2012-02-10 23:58:45 <gmaxwell> :)
2441 2012-02-10 23:58:56 <BlueMatt> I thought solidcoin paid the founder some ridiculous percent?
2442 2012-02-10 23:58:58 <Ahimoth> well current and prior... the original was the same as bitcoin
2443 2012-02-10 23:59:17 <Ahimoth> I think the amount of coins given out should proportional with the user base
2444 2012-02-10 23:59:26 <Ahimoth> the only good measure of user base we ahve is difficulty
2445 2012-02-10 23:59:34 <Idiot___> Ahimoth: have you guys thought of using a decentralised client-server model?
2446 2012-02-10 23:59:48 <BlueMatt> doesnt solidcoin restrict mining to a whitelist?
2447 2012-02-10 23:59:52 <Ahimoth> no
2448 2012-02-10 23:59:54 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
2449 2012-02-10 23:59:56 <Ahimoth> we do not restrict