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  11 2012-02-15 00:16:27 <btc_novice> https://twitter.com/?iid=am-60662501713290386184182547&nid=4+status_timestamp&uid=481430870#!/BitCoinReporter/status/169572931976970240
  12 2012-02-15 00:16:28 <btc_novice> Serious flaw in public-key crypto. Anyone know if bitcoin is vulnerable?
  13 2012-02-15 00:16:39 <sipa> bitcoin doesn't use RS
  14 2012-02-15 00:16:41 <sipa> RSA
  15 2012-02-15 00:17:08 <btc_novice> I can't read the article, it's behind a paywall.
  16 2012-02-15 00:17:19 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
  17 2012-02-15 00:17:30 <sipa> and EC doesn't have such hard requirements for its private keys
  18 2012-02-15 00:17:53 <sipa> (almost every 256 bit number is valid)
  19 2012-02-15 00:19:02 denisx_ has joined
  20 2012-02-15 00:19:06 <cjd> btc_novice: you mean the ny times article? sounds like a XSS attack, try blocking them from running javascript.
  21 2012-02-15 00:19:39 denisx_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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  23 2012-02-15 00:21:08 <btc_novice> cjd, not it's the New York Times' paywall.
  24 2012-02-15 00:21:11 <btc_novice> *no
  25 2012-02-15 00:21:28 <cjd> block them from running javascript just to make sure
  26 2012-02-15 00:21:29 <btc_novice> Thanks sipa
  27 2012-02-15 00:21:40 <btc_novice> I already do by default. :)
  28 2012-02-15 00:21:47 <btc_novice> NoScript FTW
  29 2012-02-15 00:22:14 <denisx_> http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/064.pdf
  30 2012-02-15 00:22:14 <BlueMatt> btc_novice: scroll up, I posted the actual paper
  31 2012-02-15 00:22:17 <BlueMatt> or that
  32 2012-02-15 00:22:38 <btc_novice> thanks
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  74 2012-02-15 01:57:04 <da2ce7> ;;isitdown bitcointalk.org
  75 2012-02-15 01:57:09 <gribble> http://bitcointalk.org Is Down -> Check if your website is up or down?
  76 2012-02-15 02:00:39 <Karmaon> d)dos?
  77 2012-02-15 02:01:38 Kiba` has joined
  78 2012-02-15 02:02:29 <splatster> theymos isn't around
  79 2012-02-15 02:03:04 <Karmaon> maybe it's that asshole again
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  85 2012-02-15 02:12:02 <finway> So supporting miners will upgrad to support BIP16 on Feb.20 ?
  86 2012-02-15 02:12:35 <finway> Can you make the Chinese version of  Alert message ?
  87 2012-02-15 02:13:48 <BlueMatt> we dont currently have a alert localization method
  88 2012-02-15 02:14:02 <BlueMatt> so its just gotta be english with a link which can be localized
  89 2012-02-15 02:14:14 <finway> ah, sure.
  90 2012-02-15 02:14:33 * spawn- i can send worth $156 to your amazon paments account anyone interested? i take PPUSD or BTC as payment
  91 2012-02-15 02:14:48 <BlueMatt> spawn-: not the right chan, try #bitcoin-otc
  92 2012-02-15 02:15:13 <spawn-> k
  93 2012-02-15 02:15:15 <finway> bitcointalk.org is down
  94 2012-02-15 02:16:16 <BlueMatt> finway: meh, its unofficial ;)
  95 2012-02-15 02:19:22 <splatster> Is it a DDoS?
  96 2012-02-15 02:20:07 * BlueMatt doesnt have access to them
  97 2012-02-15 02:20:24 <BlueMatt> s/them/it/
  98 2012-02-15 02:20:32 <BlueMatt> speaking of which, who does?
  99 2012-02-15 02:20:34 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping?
 100 2012-02-15 02:21:31 finway has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 102 2012-02-15 02:24:02 <finway> BlueMatt:   Does Feb.20 mean  BIP16 switchover or just some  ver checksum thing ?
 103 2012-02-15 02:24:42 <luke-jr> finway: checksum
 104 2012-02-15 02:25:08 <luke-jr> hopefully BIP 17 will get adopted :p
 105 2012-02-15 02:25:45 <finway> luke-jr: meh
 106 2012-02-15 02:26:11 <finway> When is the BIP16 switchover ?
 107 2012-02-15 02:26:32 <luke-jr> mid-March, if the unfortunate occurs
 108 2012-02-15 02:27:08 sacarlson has joined
 109 2012-02-15 02:27:37 <finway> luke-jr: hah
 110 2012-02-15 02:27:43 <gmaxwell> finway: there is no need for users to upgrade all at once for BIP16
 111 2012-02-15 02:28:48 <finway> gmaxwell: If they don't, some malicious spending txes trying redeeming from BIP16 address will be relayed right?
 112 2012-02-15 02:28:58 <finway> according to makkok
 113 2012-02-15 02:29:10 <NxTitle> we should just make bitcoin2 that has BIP17 in it
 114 2012-02-15 02:29:15 * NxTitle comes up with awful ideas
 115 2012-02-15 02:29:17 <luke-jr> finway: relayed is irrelevant
 116 2012-02-15 02:29:26 <luke-jr> NxTitle: Bitcoin2 won't need either BIP
 117 2012-02-15 02:29:29 <gmaxwell> NxTitle: /nick awfulideabot plz
 118 2012-02-15 02:29:34 <NxTitle> gmaxwell: lol
 119 2012-02-15 02:29:43 <NxTitle> luke-jr: then it would be the same as bitcoin :P
 120 2012-02-15 02:29:52 <finway> luke-jr:    the IsStandard problem will not happen with relaying ?
 121 2012-02-15 02:30:17 <luke-jr> NxTitle: not necessarily
 122 2012-02-15 02:30:23 <finway> 0.5.2 clients will refuse these mailcious txes ?
 123 2012-02-15 02:30:28 <luke-jr> finway: if all the miners are upgraded, relaying is irrelevant
 124 2012-02-15 02:30:41 <NxTitle> well, starting from scratch would definitely clean up the codebase, though most likely also adding bugs
 125 2012-02-15 02:30:46 <NxTitle> restarting*
 126 2012-02-15 02:30:54 <NxTitle> or at least cleaning up the protocol
 127 2012-02-15 02:31:36 <finway> luke-jr: but relaying makes me nervous.
 128 2012-02-15 02:31:48 <luke-jr> …
 129 2012-02-15 02:32:34 <gmaxwell> I think everything makes finway nervous. :)
 130 2012-02-15 02:32:35 <finway> I made a txes trying to  spend your coins, and these txes are wondering around the whold network...
 131 2012-02-15 02:32:45 <NxTitle> gmaxwell: that makes me nervous
 132 2012-02-15 02:32:53 <finway> Doesn't that make you nervous ?
 133 2012-02-15 02:32:54 <finway> :P
 134 2012-02-15 02:32:58 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 135 2012-02-15 02:33:00 <NxTitle> finway: ninja'd
 136 2012-02-15 02:33:23 * luke-jr releases a txn insulting finway to wander around the whole network until BIP 17 gets deployed
 137 2012-02-15 02:33:36 <gmaxwell> A lot of the network will happily relay txn that use the same input multiple times.
 138 2012-02-15 02:34:56 <NxTitle> wasn't there some problem with BIP16 where created multisig transactions could be spent by anybody if an older client was used?
 139 2012-02-15 02:35:03 <finway> gmaxwell: ok, if you say so, i bet it's not a big deal.
 140 2012-02-15 02:35:04 Maged has joined
 141 2012-02-15 02:36:10 <finway> I know [Tycho]'s multisig coins are spent by others.
 142 2012-02-15 02:36:47 <gmaxwell> [Tycho] made a hashlocked transaction which someone finally spent.
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 146 2012-02-15 02:39:52 <finway> gmaxwell: ok, thanks, i'm an idiot
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 171 2012-02-15 03:42:16 <DingoRabiit> Anyone know why the bitcointalk.org forums are down?
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 173 2012-02-15 03:44:43 <Karmaon> Short answer: no
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 220 2012-02-15 05:31:45 <etotheipi_> does the vanilla Satoshi client follow the fee rules for forwarding transactions?  i.e. if it's below priority, oversize, or contains a dust output, requires a fee?
 221 2012-02-15 05:31:57 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Yes.
 222 2012-02-15 05:32:21 <etotheipi_> so if Armory is connected only to localhost, I have no way to send zero-tx fees even if the Satoshi client would normally be able to send them
 223 2012-02-15 05:32:25 <gmaxwell> (Otherwise even if they don't get mined a dos attacker can exaust memory pools and forwarding capacity)
 224 2012-02-15 05:32:39 <Diablo-D3> so
 225 2012-02-15 05:32:43 <Diablo-D3> who actually owns a damn gcn?
 226 2012-02-15 05:32:53 <Diablo-D3> because con just tried my miner and he says it gets 23 mhash.
 227 2012-02-15 05:32:57 <etotheipi_> rather, is the reason they work because the satoshi client is actually usually got at least one peer that will forward/mine them?
 228 2012-02-15 05:33:04 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: 'would normally' well, it's applying the same rule all the other ones do.
 229 2012-02-15 05:33:37 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: no, it automatically applies a fee (0.0005) in those cases that it wouldn't forward them itself.
 230 2012-02-15 05:33:42 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
 231 2012-02-15 05:33:53 <etotheipi_> oh right, I'm thinking of the forced-no-fee fork
 232 2012-02-15 05:34:11 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: that one _still_ provides a fee, e.g. for dust outputs.
 233 2012-02-15 05:34:12 <etotheipi_> so the reason that fork works is because you are usually connected to at least one node/miner that will take them?
 234 2012-02-15 05:34:39 <Diablo-D3> no one?
 235 2012-02-15 05:34:46 <unicron_> i have 2x 7970
 236 2012-02-15 05:34:49 <unicron_> if that's what you're asking
 237 2012-02-15 05:34:50 <gmaxwell> Nope. It works because it applies fees to dust outputs, and it works for other transactions because most txn don't need fees, and many that do ... don't after a few hours of rebroadcasting and going nowhere.
 238 2012-02-15 05:35:10 <Diablo-D3> unicron_: TEST MY MINER
 239 2012-02-15 05:35:38 <unicron_> new version?
 240 2012-02-15 05:35:51 <Diablo-D3> yes
 241 2012-02-15 05:36:03 <unicron_> ok hang on
 242 2012-02-15 05:36:07 <Diablo-D3> because if it comes out as 23 mhash
 243 2012-02-15 05:36:11 <Diablo-D3> I have a new fucking record
 244 2012-02-15 05:36:37 <gmaxwell> 23mhash?
 245 2012-02-15 05:36:54 <Graet> sounds impressive - per cpu core?
 246 2012-02-15 05:37:36 <etotheipi_> okay, I'll give up on my noble quest to allow users to replicate the forced-zero-tx-fee functionality... it seems it would only work for some types of transactions IF their Satoshi client is modified...
 247 2012-02-15 05:38:05 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: there is ~nothing out there that will forward dust txn without a fee.
 248 2012-02-15 05:38:35 <midnightmagic> 23mhash on a 7970?
 249 2012-02-15 05:38:43 <Diablo-D3> Graet: per 7970.
 250 2012-02-15 05:38:58 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, thanks
 251 2012-02-15 05:39:04 <unicron_> diablo: i'm getting about 30 MH/s each but they're overclocked.  LOL
 252 2012-02-15 05:39:08 <midnightmagic> ..  like as in..  about as fast as my 6-core 1090T?
 253 2012-02-15 05:39:10 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
 254 2012-02-15 05:39:13 <Diablo-D3> he wasant wrong
 255 2012-02-15 05:39:16 coblee_ has joined
 256 2012-02-15 05:39:23 * Graet scratches head
 257 2012-02-15 05:39:29 <Diablo-D3> unicron_: you're on linux right?
 258 2012-02-15 05:39:40 <unicron_> win 7 ult 64
 259 2012-02-15 05:39:44 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
 260 2012-02-15 05:39:52 <Diablo-D3> now I need to find someone on linux with a gcn
 261 2012-02-15 05:39:55 <Diablo-D3> because I want the damned isa file
 262 2012-02-15 05:40:01 <midnightmagic> what's a gcn?
 263 2012-02-15 05:40:06 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: 79xx
 264 2012-02-15 05:40:08 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: get yourself one, fool.
 265 2012-02-15 05:40:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: its not going to fit in the damned case.
 266 2012-02-15 05:40:29 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: Not enough in the "buy D3 a 7xxx card fund" yet?
 267 2012-02-15 05:41:24 vorlov has joined
 268 2012-02-15 05:41:33 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: and that isnt it
 269 2012-02-15 05:41:35 <Diablo-D3> once it goes in
 270 2012-02-15 05:41:36 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: go find someone with some old p3 in a gigantic tower case.. and convince them to throw it out, then raid their trash
 271 2012-02-15 05:41:36 <Diablo-D3> thats it
 272 2012-02-15 05:41:48 <Diablo-D3> dude, Im not replacing my p180
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 278 2012-02-15 05:45:16 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: why the fuck is AMD doing that anyhow
 279 2012-02-15 05:45:21 <Diablo-D3> its useless shit to make them that long
 280 2012-02-15 05:45:49 <midnightmagic> You could cut a rectangular hole in the other end of your case and cram it in there.
 281 2012-02-15 05:46:04 <unicron_> ditch the case!
 282 2012-02-15 05:46:07 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: yes, Im going to cut a hole in a silent case.
 283 2012-02-15 05:46:09 <Diablo-D3> you moron.
 284 2012-02-15 05:46:21 <Diablo-D3> for those who dont know: antec p180s are especially designed to be silent
 285 2012-02-15 05:47:01 <Diablo-D3> you do not cut holes in them, and you couldnt even if you tried.
 286 2012-02-15 05:47:16 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: and where the fuck am I cutting this hole?
 287 2012-02-15 05:47:17 <midnightmagic> You could..  use a riser and scotch tape the card to one of the inside walls.
 288 2012-02-15 05:47:35 denisx has joined
 289 2012-02-15 05:48:20 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: thats retarded.
 290 2012-02-15 05:48:27 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck does this channel keep suggesting retarded shit.
 291 2012-02-15 05:48:38 <Diablo-D3> I dunno about you, but Im not in the business of breaking expensive shit.
 292 2012-02-15 05:49:02 <midnightmagic> lol just jerking your chain man. :)
 293 2012-02-15 05:49:30 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if the 7950s will be shorter
 294 2012-02-15 05:49:46 <midnightmagic> scotch tape's no good, you have to use flour paste.
 295 2012-02-15 05:50:42 JRWR has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 296 2012-02-15 05:51:04 <unicron_> 7950 = same length, worse fan
 297 2012-02-15 05:51:31 <Diablo-D3> fuck.
 298 2012-02-15 05:51:53 <Diablo-D3> maybe I should just make the bitcoin community give me another $500 or something
 299 2012-02-15 05:51:57 b4epoche_ has joined
 300 2012-02-15 05:53:04 <Diablo-D3> I can swap my 2x400gb for two 2.5" drives
 301 2012-02-15 05:53:11 <Diablo-D3> then mount those elsewhere
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 305 2012-02-15 05:54:25 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: you should cut a hole in your case
 306 2012-02-15 05:54:33 <Diablo-D3> shuddup k9
 307 2012-02-15 05:54:41 <k9quaint> you shaddupa yo face!
 308 2012-02-15 05:54:58 <k9quaint> p.s. I hate OAuth
 309 2012-02-15 05:59:36 <midnightmagic> it'sa not so bad..  it'sa nice-a place..
 310 2012-02-15 06:00:05 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
 311 2012-02-15 06:00:13 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck wont the price go back up so I can sell my btc
 312 2012-02-15 06:00:41 <midnightmagic> because some holders decided they wanted to pluck the ripe apple
 313 2012-02-15 06:01:01 <k9quaint> the price has been going up
 314 2012-02-15 06:01:23 <Diablo-D3> well who wants to buy my btc for $6
 315 2012-02-15 06:02:13 <k9quaint> as long as you have 1.5BTC, I'll take that deal
 316 2012-02-15 06:02:25 <Diablo-D3> heh.
 317 2012-02-15 06:02:36 Joric has joined
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 319 2012-02-15 06:03:00 ForceMajeure has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 320 2012-02-15 06:04:20 <Diablo-D3> welp, Im just going to have to wait for the price to go back up before I buy the 5970.
 321 2012-02-15 06:06:22 <Diablo-D3> er, 7970
 322 2012-02-15 06:07:21 <JFK911> why?
 323 2012-02-15 06:07:27 <JFK911> by the time you get it, it will be in the tank again
 324 2012-02-15 06:07:31 <JFK911> and the btc you make will be worth less
 325 2012-02-15 06:07:39 <Diablo-D3> because I need to sell almost 17 BTC.
 326 2012-02-15 06:07:57 <JFK911> just use your credit card
 327 2012-02-15 06:08:16 <Diablo-D3> I dont believe in credit cards, JFK911
 328 2012-02-15 06:08:24 <Diablo-D3> its just another scam by the bank to steal my money
 329 2012-02-15 06:10:56 <Diablo-D3> also, this is interesting
 330 2012-02-15 06:11:00 <Diablo-D3> I thought I was 4 mhash short
 331 2012-02-15 06:11:08 <Diablo-D3> but if I go back to 765/1000
 332 2012-02-15 06:11:12 <Diablo-D3> both get 303
 333 2012-02-15 06:11:32 <Diablo-D3> sorry, mine gets 303, original gets 304
 334 2012-02-15 06:11:48 <Diablo-D3> thats not so bad at all
 335 2012-02-15 06:13:36 <Diablo-D3> but it dont work on GCN
 336 2012-02-15 06:13:38 <Diablo-D3> so fuck it
 337 2012-02-15 06:13:43 <Diablo-D3> AMD can go fuck themselves
 338 2012-02-15 06:13:47 <Diablo-D3> 2 weeks of work down the drain
 339 2012-02-15 06:13:51 <Diablo-D3> I dont even care anymore
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 344 2012-02-15 06:23:45 smickles is now known as smickles|idle
 345 2012-02-15 06:26:44 <da2ce7> if anyone is intersted in helping out with the Open Transactions development... make sure you hang out in #opentransactions
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 356 2012-02-15 06:36:34 OneFixt has joined
 357 2012-02-15 06:40:13 JRWR has joined
 358 2012-02-15 06:52:41 <Joric> SourceForge features Bitcoin project on front page! expect a ton of new users
 359 2012-02-15 06:52:59 Joric_ has joined
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 361 2012-02-15 06:53:00 Joric_ has quit (Changing host)
 362 2012-02-15 06:53:00 Joric_ has joined
 363 2012-02-15 06:53:22 <Joric_> SourceForge http://sf.net features Bitcoin project on front page! expect a ton of new users
 364 2012-02-15 06:53:30 RazielZ has joined
 365 2012-02-15 06:54:20 <Joric_> sure thing that will drive some attention
 366 2012-02-15 06:54:27 Joric_ is now known as Joric
 367 2012-02-15 07:03:59 <Graet> is front page like a status symbol?
 368 2012-02-15 07:05:15 <JFK911> well like
 369 2012-02-15 07:05:21 <JFK911> who goes to sf and doesnt know about bitcoin already
 370 2012-02-15 07:05:25 <JFK911> that's like talking about btc on slashdot
 371 2012-02-15 07:05:34 <Graet> :)
 372 2012-02-15 07:05:39 <BlueMatt> "Project of the Month"
 373 2012-02-15 07:05:49 <Graet> ahh cool :)
 374 2012-02-15 07:05:56 <Graet> good work guys :D
 375 2012-02-15 07:06:03 <JFK911> and they picked the shortest month
 376 2012-02-15 07:06:18 <BlueMatt> I wonder what that means, downloads/staff picks/etc?
 377 2012-02-15 07:07:02 <splatster> Quick! Everyone go to http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/latest/download to help boost bitcoin to the top of the list!
 378 2012-02-15 07:07:12 <JFK911> while true do wget
 379 2012-02-15 07:07:23 <BlueMatt> (on botnet)
 380 2012-02-15 07:07:32 <splatster> YES!
 381 2012-02-15 07:07:37 <splatster> Lets do that
 382 2012-02-15 07:07:46 <JFK911> any OP_HTTP_GET
 383 2012-02-15 07:08:08 <BlueMatt> OP_PYTHON_EXEC :)
 384 2012-02-15 07:08:15 <BlueMatt> (make it easier to extend on in the future)
 385 2012-02-15 07:08:25 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 386 2012-02-15 07:08:36 <splatster> OP_DR_OCTOGONAPUS_BWAAAAAH
 387 2012-02-15 07:09:36 <cjd> OP_UPGRADE
 388 2012-02-15 07:09:39 <splatster> For those of you who don't get the reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSVNbxjdvv8
 389 2012-02-15 07:10:06 <BlueMatt> cjd: now that would be useful
 390 2012-02-15 07:10:40 <cjd> as long as you kept the keys in a bank vault
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 395 2012-02-15 07:31:39 <Diablo-D3> hey
 396 2012-02-15 07:31:43 <Diablo-D3> who was bitching about oauth
 397 2012-02-15 07:32:07 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: was it you
 398 2012-02-15 07:32:30 <BlueMatt> a lot of people bitch about oauth
 399 2012-02-15 07:32:50 <Diablo-D3> http://allinthehead.com/retro/359/a-favicon-broke-my-app
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 417 2012-02-15 08:13:58 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, he doesn't know how to use varnish
 418 2012-02-15 08:14:00 <phantomcircuit> amazing
 419 2012-02-15 08:15:49 wood has joined
 420 2012-02-15 08:16:29 <jine> Sucky code I'd say.
 421 2012-02-15 08:16:41 <jine> 404 (or well, generated 404 pages) shouldn't load and modify sessions.
 422 2012-02-15 08:16:59 <Diablo-D3> jine: yes, but thats not the problem
 423 2012-02-15 08:17:09 JStoker has quit (Excess Flood)
 424 2012-02-15 08:17:12 <Diablo-D3> its because php is a fucking pile of shit and chrome is doing something exceedingly dumb
 425 2012-02-15 08:17:31 <phantomcircuit> no i'd say the problem is 100% with his servers
 426 2012-02-15 08:17:41 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: "yes"
 427 2012-02-15 08:17:43 <Diablo-D3> he has a 404.
 428 2012-02-15 08:17:51 <Diablo-D3> clever 404s are for fags
 429 2012-02-15 08:17:56 <Diablo-D3> except for github, they're cool
 430 2012-02-15 08:18:06 <phantomcircuit> you can put content into a 404 no problem
 431 2012-02-15 08:18:12 <phantomcircuit> his problem is it doesn't 404
 432 2012-02-15 08:18:18 <phantomcircuit> it 200's his index.php
 433 2012-02-15 08:18:19 <jine> Diablo-D3: Eh, yeah, blame the language for a programmers mistake.
 434 2012-02-15 08:18:22 <jine> Makes sense.
 435 2012-02-15 08:18:35 <Diablo-D3> jine: i do, because then I can blame the programmer for using that language
 436 2012-02-15 08:18:38 <Diablo-D3> it makes sense in context.
 437 2012-02-15 08:18:45 <jine> Also, chrome (AND FIREFOX/WHATEVER) is always requesting favicons if not cache
 438 2012-02-15 08:18:48 <jine> +d
 439 2012-02-15 08:18:55 <Diablo-D3> firefox caches the fail for favicon though
 440 2012-02-15 08:19:13 <jine> In either way, every now and then it refreshes that cache
 441 2012-02-15 08:19:17 <jine> So it would be harder to spot
 442 2012-02-15 08:19:21 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: but yes, thats a weird thing to do
 443 2012-02-15 08:19:25 <jine> But the issue would still exist.
 444 2012-02-15 08:19:39 molecular has joined
 445 2012-02-15 08:19:41 <Diablo-D3> jine: /me shrugs
 446 2012-02-15 08:19:45 <Diablo-D3> its still terminal behavior on chrome only
 447 2012-02-15 08:19:53 <jine> phantomcircuit: As he redirects everything to index.php, his CODE should do the magic.
 448 2012-02-15 08:20:07 <Diablo-D3> btw, thats still a php problem
 449 2012-02-15 08:20:09 <jine> It's a stupid developer, not language, varnish fault, apache or any other server-issue.
 450 2012-02-15 08:20:12 <Diablo-D3> php doesnt support proper rest paths
 451 2012-02-15 08:20:18 <phantomcircuit> no that's a bad developer problem
 452 2012-02-15 08:20:21 <jine> Ofc it does?
 453 2012-02-15 08:20:23 <Diablo-D3> its all done with rewrite rule magic
 454 2012-02-15 08:20:26 <jine> phantomcircuit: Exactly.
 455 2012-02-15 08:20:26 <Diablo-D3> inside the httpd
 456 2012-02-15 08:20:28 <Diablo-D3> which is fucktarded
 457 2012-02-15 08:20:34 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, php doesn't do anything with paths
 458 2012-02-15 08:20:34 <jine> Diablo-D3: Eeh, no?
 459 2012-02-15 08:20:41 <jine> Diablo-D3: Are you stupid or what?
 460 2012-02-15 08:20:41 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: BINGO
 461 2012-02-15 08:20:58 <Diablo-D3> jine: you're kidding me right? you must have never had to deal with php
 462 2012-02-15 08:21:00 <phantomcircuit> you have to setup your httpd to run the right php file
 463 2012-02-15 08:21:01 <Diablo-D3> its a nightmare to worth with
 464 2012-02-15 08:21:07 <jine> What's wrong with checking in PHP (or any other lang) what the user wants - and then giving it to him?
 465 2012-02-15 08:21:07 <Diablo-D3> I dont know why anyone would code in it
 466 2012-02-15 08:21:25 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: thats a rewrite rule.
 467 2012-02-15 08:21:27 <jine> Diablo-D3: I'm a fulltime php-developer. Responsible for everything from bitlc.net to a shitload more.
 468 2012-02-15 08:21:37 <Diablo-D3> jine: learn a real language.
 469 2012-02-15 08:21:39 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, depends on the httpd
 470 2012-02-15 08:21:50 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yes, not all of them are cherokee.
 471 2012-02-15 08:21:58 <jine> Diablo-D3: /(.*) to index.php
 472 2012-02-15 08:22:02 <jine> And to the magic in code.
 473 2012-02-15 08:22:10 <Diablo-D3> thats a rewrite rule, jine.
 474 2012-02-15 08:22:10 <jine> No issue What.So.Ever.
 475 2012-02-15 08:22:18 <Diablo-D3> rewrite rules are bad (tm)
 476 2012-02-15 08:22:34 JStoker has joined
 477 2012-02-15 08:22:43 <jine> Diablo-D3: So, how do you do a similar thing in.. say python? ruby? asp? perl?
 478 2012-02-15 08:23:11 <Diablo-D3> lolpython, lolruby, lolasp, perl is the only real language out of those three
 479 2012-02-15 08:23:27 <jine> Somewhere you gotta have something that checks the url against a controller/something.
 480 2012-02-15 08:23:34 <jine> You can't deny that.
 481 2012-02-15 08:23:37 <Diablo-D3> yes, but in a real language theres no "index.php"
 482 2012-02-15 08:23:49 <gjs278> he shouldn't rewrite his 404s
 483 2012-02-15 08:23:51 <jine> SOMEWHERE you're routing the traffic to a file/function/pagerouter/SOMETHING
 484 2012-02-15 08:23:58 <jine> gjs278: Ofc he should, are you stupid or what?
 485 2012-02-15 08:24:04 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: he shouldnt rewrite ANY of it
 486 2012-02-15 08:24:04 <gjs278> just set an ErrorDocument 404
 487 2012-02-15 08:24:07 <gjs278> you stupid fucknut
 488 2012-02-15 08:24:09 <gjs278> jine
 489 2012-02-15 08:24:12 <jine> gjs278: Stop using apache you fucknut.
 490 2012-02-15 08:24:14 <gjs278> jine
 491 2012-02-15 08:24:16 <gjs278> jine
 492 2012-02-15 08:24:16 <jine> gjs278:
 493 2012-02-15 08:24:17 <gjs278> you are
 494 2012-02-15 08:24:18 <jine> gjs278
 495 2012-02-15 08:24:19 <gjs278> a fucking
 496 2012-02-15 08:24:20 <gjs278> retard
 497 2012-02-15 08:24:22 <gjs278> do you know that
 498 2012-02-15 08:24:34 <gjs278> why would you (.*) to index.php and then ruin all of your 404s
 499 2012-02-15 08:24:38 <jine> I do not, actually... You use apache, be quiet.
 500 2012-02-15 08:24:48 <Diablo-D3> lol
 501 2012-02-15 08:24:49 <jine> gjs278: Cause i can handle, log, manage errors then
 502 2012-02-15 08:24:55 <Diablo-D3> someone ban jine and make him troll elsewhere
 503 2012-02-15 08:24:57 <jine> It's called error-handling.
 504 2012-02-15 08:25:00 <jine> Diablo-D3: I'm not trolling dude.
 505 2012-02-15 08:25:03 <gjs278> error handling by returning 200?
 506 2012-02-15 08:25:06 <Diablo-D3> then go learn a real language.
 507 2012-02-15 08:25:27 <gjs278> if they 404 they need to see 404
 508 2012-02-15 08:25:32 <jine> gjs278: That's a developer mistake, not something to blame the "way" for.
 509 2012-02-15 08:25:36 <jine> Just return a correct header.
 510 2012-02-15 08:25:52 <jine> gjs278: Custom error-page: https://www.bitlc.net/yousuck
 511 2012-02-15 08:26:02 <gjs278> so you have exceptions in your index.php that detects when a page was requested that does not exist, and then you manually set the header to 404 in your index.php instead of letting your webserver do it
 512 2012-02-15 08:26:21 <jine> The full request is logged in mysql, incl. header and active session, and displays a custom page.
 513 2012-02-15 08:26:41 <jine> gjs278: Not really, i use MVC - if the controllers isen't found, redirect to error handler and let it do it's magic
 514 2012-02-15 08:26:54 <Diablo-D3> lol mvc in php
 515 2012-02-15 08:26:54 <gjs278> >mfw when jine doesn't realize nginx can set errordocument 404 as well
 516 2012-02-15 08:26:55 <mod6> lol
 517 2012-02-15 08:26:58 <jine> Same goes with http 500/501/502/503
 518 2012-02-15 08:27:08 <Diablo-D3> >mfw gjs278 uses nginx instead of cherokee
 519 2012-02-15 08:27:09 <jine> gjs278: Ofc it can, but WHY should i!?
 520 2012-02-15 08:27:16 <gjs278> nah man he's using nginx
 521 2012-02-15 08:27:18 <jine> gjs278: rewrite /(.*) index.php
 522 2012-02-15 08:27:20 <jine> And you're done
 523 2012-02-15 08:27:24 <gjs278> you are so dumb
 524 2012-02-15 08:27:27 <Diablo-D3> BUT REWRITES ARE BAD (TM)
 525 2012-02-15 08:27:29 <Diablo-D3> USE A REAL LANGUAGE
 526 2012-02-15 08:27:55 <jine> Diablo-D3: I bet you'd never worked as a webdev. :)
 527 2012-02-15 08:28:18 <Diablo-D3> not only did I work as one, I quit while you were still in diapers.
 528 2012-02-15 08:28:46 <jine> So you don't have any experience of the web as it is on the 2000-centry? Then be quiet.
 529 2012-02-15 08:29:01 <jine> I can agree on the apache-way of rewriting every.single.fucking.url is BAD
 530 2012-02-15 08:29:03 <mod6> omg. kline.
 531 2012-02-15 08:29:21 <Diablo-D3> jine: who said that?
 532 2012-02-15 08:29:30 <cjd> i wwebsite as on internet...
 533 2012-02-15 08:29:35 <Diablo-D3> I said I quit WORKING as one
 534 2012-02-15 08:29:45 <Diablo-D3> I do it purely for fun now
 535 2012-02-15 08:30:03 <jine> Diablo-D3: :)
 536 2012-02-15 08:30:11 JStoker has quit (Excess Flood)
 537 2012-02-15 08:30:15 <gjs278> (.*) to index.php in nginx and apache are going to get you the same results, which will both be equally retarded
 538 2012-02-15 08:30:22 <Diablo-D3> and Im sure as hell not going to touch some dumbfuck language like php
 539 2012-02-15 08:30:32 pumpkin has joined
 540 2012-02-15 08:30:32 <Diablo-D3> php still cannot parse urls without it being rewritten using that hack
 541 2012-02-15 08:30:34 <Diablo-D3> thats insane
 542 2012-02-15 08:30:38 copumpkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 543 2012-02-15 08:30:38 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
 544 2012-02-15 08:30:39 <Diablo-D3> no other language has never done that
 545 2012-02-15 08:30:48 <jine> Diablo-D3: Ofc it can?
 546 2012-02-15 08:30:57 <Diablo-D3> [03:19:57] <jine> gjs278: rewrite /(.*) index.php
 547 2012-02-15 08:30:58 <Diablo-D3> [03:19:57] <jine> gjs278: rewrite /(.*) index.php
 548 2012-02-15 08:30:58 <Diablo-D3> [03:19:57] <jine> gjs278: rewrite /(.*) index.php
 549 2012-02-15 08:30:58 <Diablo-D3> [03:19:57] <jine> gjs278: rewrite /(.*) index.php
 550 2012-02-15 08:30:58 <Diablo-D3> [03:19:57] <jine> gjs278: rewrite /(.*) index.php
 551 2012-02-15 08:30:59 <Diablo-D3> [03:19:57] <jine> gjs278: rewrite /(.*) index.php
 552 2012-02-15 08:31:13 <gjs278> yeah I do that in all of my mod_perl setups
 553 2012-02-15 08:31:14 <gjs278> right
 554 2012-02-15 08:31:31 <Diablo-D3> s/mod_perl/fastcgi, because catalyst is one sexy bitch/
 555 2012-02-15 08:31:48 <nhodges> that parsing ability is built into whatever http utility you're using in python or whatever comparable language ...
 556 2012-02-15 08:31:49 <jine> Diablo-D3: Somewhere you gotta have a pagerouter, can we agree on that? What does that pagerouter do, exactly? :)
 557 2012-02-15 08:32:02 <nhodges> otherwise apache or lighty or whatever is serving directories or files
 558 2012-02-15 08:32:12 <Diablo-D3> yes, but you dont fucking use your fucking httpd to do it
 559 2012-02-15 08:32:19 <Diablo-D3> your httpd exists to proxy requests blindly
 560 2012-02-15 08:32:23 <Diablo-D3> and serve static files
 561 2012-02-15 08:32:28 <Backburn> and serve cake
 562 2012-02-15 08:32:34 <jine> cake is a lie
 563 2012-02-15 08:32:34 <Diablo-D3> but the cake is a lie
 564 2012-02-15 08:33:01 <nhodges> lol
 565 2012-02-15 08:33:06 <Diablo-D3> I mean fuck, some languages I dont even need the httpd
 566 2012-02-15 08:33:12 <Diablo-D3> the app instance IS the httpd
 567 2012-02-15 08:33:44 <gjs278> you should proxy the app instance behind cherokee but then ruin it by rewriting all of the urls
 568 2012-02-15 08:34:08 <Diablo-D3> no, I should proxy it behind varnish and then make it over 9000 times faster through magic and handwavium
 569 2012-02-15 08:35:08 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: btw, guess what I saw the other day
 570 2012-02-15 08:35:20 <Diablo-D3> someone ported node.js to c++
 571 2012-02-15 08:35:43 <gjs278> the circle is complete in that case
 572 2012-02-15 08:35:55 <Diablo-D3> I couldnt stop laughing
 573 2012-02-15 08:37:02 <cjd> what exactly did they port?
 574 2012-02-15 08:37:13 <cjd> the js scripts which are included in node?
 575 2012-02-15 08:37:27 <Diablo-D3> they copied the node.js api and connected it to libwhateveritisthatnodejsuses like normal
 576 2012-02-15 08:37:34 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 577 2012-02-15 08:37:36 <Diablo-D3> its incredibly fucktarded
 578 2012-02-15 08:37:41 <Diablo-D3> lemme see if I can find it
 579 2012-02-15 08:38:07 <cjd> I mean v8 is already c++ and that's not going to get any faster
 580 2012-02-15 08:38:23 <gjs278> "This technology, called Node.js, is being hailed as ?the new Ruby on Rails? by some in the developer community"
 581 2012-02-15 08:38:23 <Diablo-D3> cjd: erm
 582 2012-02-15 08:38:26 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt use javascript
 583 2012-02-15 08:38:34 JStoker has joined
 584 2012-02-15 08:38:57 <cjd> there are some .js files in node, not a whole lot though
 585 2012-02-15 08:39:06 <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/d5/node.native
 586 2012-02-15 08:39:07 <Diablo-D3> heeeeee
 587 2012-02-15 08:39:11 <Diablo-D3> cjd: thats the thing
 588 2012-02-15 08:39:18 <josephcp> wat
 589 2012-02-15 08:39:28 <Diablo-D3> its the node.js api, but in c++, but still uses libuv
 590 2012-02-15 08:39:39 <gjs278>         res.set_header("Content-Type", "text/plain");
 591 2012-02-15 08:39:40 <gjs278>         res.end("C++ FTW\n");
 592 2012-02-15 08:39:45 <josephcp> so you write c++ and it's interpreted using nodejs libraries?
 593 2012-02-15 08:39:48 <Diablo-D3> libuv == the actual code behind node.js, the thing that makes it work
 594 2012-02-15 08:39:50 <josephcp> wat
 595 2012-02-15 08:40:12 <cjd> oh ic
 596 2012-02-15 08:40:14 <Diablo-D3> node.js quite literally is libuv plus v8 and some tiny smidgen of glue code
 597 2012-02-15 08:40:16 <josephcp> someone REALLY likes c++ lol
 598 2012-02-15 08:40:31 <cjd> write your scripts in C++
 599 2012-02-15 08:40:37 <Diablo-D3> so all they did was close the node.js api in c++ and they're STILL using libuv
 600 2012-02-15 08:40:45 <Diablo-D3> er clone
 601 2012-02-15 08:41:15 <cjd> like php with buffer overflows :D
 602 2012-02-15 08:41:24 <Diablo-D3> no no no
 603 2012-02-15 08:41:34 <Diablo-D3> like java with buffer overflows and multiple class inheritance
 604 2012-02-15 08:41:43 <Diablo-D3> (and friend classes, and templates, and boost...)
 605 2012-02-15 08:41:43 <cjd> heh
 606 2012-02-15 08:41:50 <cjd> hehehe
 607 2012-02-15 08:41:54 <josephcp> and don't forget typing (with C++ templates WHOO)
 608 2012-02-15 08:42:07 <Diablo-D3> (and a language specification committee...)
 609 2012-02-15 08:42:08 <josephcp> lol
 610 2012-02-15 08:42:24 <cjd> but like given the way a lot of web devs write their stuff ...
 611 2012-02-15 08:42:27 <cjd> gawd
 612 2012-02-15 08:42:41 <Diablo-D3> I dont know how the net exists, really
 613 2012-02-15 08:42:59 <josephcp> seriously though, maybe this is a squeeze a very specific performance of a very specific webservice, i could see it being justified in that 0.00001% edge case -_-
 614 2012-02-15 08:43:10 <Diablo-D3> smaller
 615 2012-02-15 08:43:38 <Diablo-D3> one persatoshi.
 616 2012-02-15 08:44:05 <cjd> if you're google, you write everything in house so you can just drop to asm any you need to
 617 2012-02-15 08:44:20 <Diablo-D3> except now that google is like TEEHEE ARM BLADES
 618 2012-02-15 08:44:35 <cjd> and because then you have total control over threads and locks and all that ceap
 619 2012-02-15 08:44:38 <cjd> *crap
 620 2012-02-15 08:44:45 <Diablo-D3> >locks
 621 2012-02-15 08:44:51 <Diablo-D3> =|
 622 2012-02-15 08:45:16 <cjd> thread pools of event bases
 623 2012-02-15 08:45:28 <cjd> magik
 624 2012-02-15 08:45:37 <Diablo-D3> Im pretty sure you just wrote busses
 625 2012-02-15 08:46:33 * cjd would remove threads from programming altogether
 626 2012-02-15 08:46:41 <Diablo-D3> I "wouldnt"
 627 2012-02-15 08:46:53 <Diablo-D3> but having a basic async messaging system would be nice
 628 2012-02-15 08:47:18 <cjd> for every 1 person who has the knowlege to use them, a bazillion people think "spawn a thread dude" is the way to solve everything
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 685 2012-02-15 10:42:55 <jeremias> http://code.google.com/p/zxing/wiki/ScanningFromWebPages
 686 2012-02-15 10:43:21 <jeremias> haven't thought about that, you can apparently scan QR codes from web apps
 687 2012-02-15 10:43:47 <jeremias> so you could make web based wallets for iPhone and Android pretty easily
 688 2012-02-15 10:45:46 <Eliel> there's already code for a complete web based wallet out there I think it was called bitcoin-js-remote
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 691 2012-02-15 10:46:50 <jeremias> http://tcatm.github.com/bitcoin-js-remote/
 692 2012-02-15 10:46:58 <jeremias> not very product-oriented
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 697 2012-02-15 10:47:14 <jeremias> I mean, no average Joe is going to run his own stuff on apache
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 699 2012-02-15 10:51:23 <jeremias> I just think that QR-code integration is pretty awesome, web based bitcoin mobile clients are so much easier to write that I think we will see plenty of them
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 704 2012-02-15 10:59:03 <Eliel> jeremias: yeah,  it's not packaged and ready, but there is not much work left to do to get it there
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 732 2012-02-15 12:36:36 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sje397 opened pull request 837 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/837>
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 740 2012-02-15 12:53:52 <sipa> forrestv: the people who have reported deadlock issues with 0.6.0rc1, have they tried 0.5.3rc2 ?
 741 2012-02-15 12:55:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: currently accessible on the network i see a 0.3.0, a 0.3.2, a 0.3.14 and a 0.3.15 as pre-0.3.17 clients
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 747 2012-02-15 13:06:50 <sje> bip16 won't be enabled until a majority have upgraded, right?
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 749 2012-02-15 13:08:44 <Eliel> naturally. although that only means majority of miners. not all bitcoin users
 750 2012-02-15 13:08:57 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but pools shouldnt have a vote here
 751 2012-02-15 13:11:43 <marf_away> lol?
 752 2012-02-15 13:11:55 <marf_away> who should?
 753 2012-02-15 13:11:59 <Diablo-D3> actual miners
 754 2012-02-15 13:12:09 <marf_away> if they are so stubid...
 755 2012-02-15 13:12:09 <Diablo-D3> like, deepbit can vote because they're actually voting on what to do
 756 2012-02-15 13:12:35 <marf_away> its like voting for voters
 757 2012-02-15 13:12:35 <Diablo-D3> although I dont know how legit that vote is, I dont know if they have a "neither 16 or 17" option
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 759 2012-02-15 13:16:01 <sipa> of course, if they don't implement either, they don't vote for either
 760 2012-02-15 13:16:20 <sipa> and it's not a vote, it's a measurement
 761 2012-02-15 13:17:02 <Diablo-D3> then the whole process is flawed and both 16 and 17 should be closed.
 762 2012-02-15 13:17:14 <sipa> huh?
 763 2012-02-15 13:17:33 <Diablo-D3> neither are technically sufficient solutions
 764 2012-02-15 13:18:04 <sipa> possibly, but in which way has that anything to do with the process?
 765 2012-02-15 13:19:07 <Diablo-D3> this isnt the presidential election
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 767 2012-02-15 13:19:20 <Diablo-D3> you dont get to run canidates that dont work
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 769 2012-02-15 13:19:47 <Graet> hmm some would disagree :P
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 773 2012-02-15 13:21:16 <sipa> Diablo-D3: you still haven't answered my question
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 777 2012-02-15 13:22:24 <Diablo-D3> if neither 16 or 17 are sufficient solutions, then neither should ever be adopted
 778 2012-02-15 13:22:30 <Diablo-D3> and probably any blocks that use them should be rejected
 779 2012-02-15 13:23:17 <sipa> why would they not be sufficient solutions, or who gets to decide over that?
 780 2012-02-15 13:23:48 <Diablo-D3> if 16 was sufficient, there wouldnt be a 17, and vice cersa.
 781 2012-02-15 13:23:49 <sipa> and any BIP16 of BIP17-verified block is immediately also a valid block under the old rules, by definition, so there is no way to verify whether they are
 782 2012-02-15 13:23:51 <Diablo-D3> *versa
 783 2012-02-15 13:24:20 <Diablo-D3> and the only people who get to decide over that are people who understand the long term effects of it
 784 2012-02-15 13:24:25 <sipa> in my opinion, both a sufficient, and the only reason both exist is because of philosophical arguments
 785 2012-02-15 13:24:28 <Diablo-D3> which is pretty much like 3 people
 786 2012-02-15 13:24:42 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes, which by definition means neither are sufficient
 787 2012-02-15 13:25:29 <sipa> applied to the US presidential voting, your definition of "sufficient" implies 100% of voters support one?
 788 2012-02-15 13:25:59 <Diablo-D3> no, my definition of sufficient means they can do the job
 789 2012-02-15 13:26:10 <sipa> they can
 790 2012-02-15 13:26:12 <sipa> both of them
 791 2012-02-15 13:26:18 <Diablo-D3> so unless we're digging up roosevelt and have him serve a fifth term, I dont see it happening
 792 2012-02-15 13:26:52 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/P2SH_Votes
 793 2012-02-15 13:30:36 <sipa> (i was talking about p2sh, by the way, not US candidates)
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 803 2012-02-15 13:48:04 <sje> lianj: ?
 804 2012-02-15 13:48:25 <lianj> ?
 805 2012-02-15 13:48:53 <sje> do you know how the dialog behaves on a mac?
 806 2012-02-15 13:49:29 <lianj> no, im not on mac
 807 2012-02-15 13:49:45 <sje> :/ dumb gnome ;)
 808 2012-02-15 13:50:27 <lianj> not on gnome either :P
 809 2012-02-15 13:50:54 <lianj> what dialog anw?
 810 2012-02-15 13:51:21 <sje> oh you're not laanwj? oops sorry
 811 2012-02-15 13:51:34 <lianj> hehe, np
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 813 2012-02-15 13:53:16 <sipa> sje: laanwj is wumpus here
 814 2012-02-15 13:53:30 <sje> ah thanks sipa
 815 2012-02-15 13:53:33 <wumpus> hey
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 817 2012-02-15 13:54:19 <sje> hi wumpus - was wondering if you know how the dialog behaves on a mac, and if you get a 'native' dialog if you do the wrapper thing?
 818 2012-02-15 13:54:44 <sje> sounded like not from the stackoverflow post you linked...but i haven't tried
 819 2012-02-15 13:54:52 <sje> and....dumb gnome :)
 820 2012-02-15 13:55:59 <wumpus> I don't know about mac
 821 2012-02-15 13:57:19 <wumpus> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/838
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 824 2012-02-15 13:57:51 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened issue 839 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/839>
 825 2012-02-15 13:57:51 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: laanwj opened pull request 838 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/838>
 826 2012-02-15 14:05:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: one regression i notice now that addrman is running for a while here: if you get enough "known" addresses, those get favored when starting up, but they are far far less reliable than e.g. dns seeds
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 829 2012-02-15 14:08:17 <Nicksasa> hmm upgraded to ubuntu 11.10 and now i can't apt-get libdb4.8++-dev
 830 2012-02-15 14:08:29 <sipa> use 5.1
 831 2012-02-15 14:08:49 <Nicksasa> oh, thanks
 832 2012-02-15 14:09:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: Thats ... good news, I mean, it shows we were overly likely to use dnsseeds before and the dnsseeds probably have full control of a nodes initial connections.
 833 2012-02-15 14:09:32 <graingert> Nicksasa: yep
 834 2012-02-15 14:09:42 <graingert> Nicksasa: that's because it's deprecated
 835 2012-02-15 14:09:52 <graingert> Nicksasa: it should be included in the bitcoin ppa
 836 2012-02-15 14:09:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: though, perhaps there should be some special casing where it prefers dnsseeds until it has 1/2 connections?
 837 2012-02-15 14:10:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: addrman was written somehow with the assumption that nodes you tried yourself are more reliable than others
 838 2012-02-15 14:11:04 <sipa> gmaxwell: but that isn't the case in that particular situation (just starting up, dnsseeds vs old tried nodes)
 839 2012-02-15 14:11:40 <sipa> but yes, we were relying very strongly on IRC/dnsseeds at startup
 840 2012-02-15 14:12:12 <gmaxwell> (IRC not just at startup too, the just seen promotion in IRC has always made me very uneasy)
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 842 2012-02-15 14:15:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: right, so in the case the assumption isn't so good. Perhaps there should be a small seperate quickstart table which is filled with the nodes you were connected to when you shut down, and refilled with DNSseed when it runs and that table is used before known until its empty or you have one (or two?) connections.
 843 2012-02-15 14:16:10 <sipa> i guess i can just tweak the biases a bit
 844 2012-02-15 14:16:15 <gmaxwell> That amount of preference wouldn't have the security concerns that letting them take all slots would, and it's really only important to get one connection fast.
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 846 2012-02-15 14:18:21 <sje> wumpus - grr open braces on newline :(
 847 2012-02-15 14:18:32 <sje> i'm outnumbered again...just like with tabs
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 850 2012-02-15 14:20:13 <wumpus> heh
 851 2012-02-15 14:20:23 <wumpus> I'm not too fussy about it but please try to keep it consistent at least :)
 852 2012-02-15 14:20:32 <sje> yes fair enough
 853 2012-02-15 14:21:51 <sje> was it always that way in the bitcoin code? i didn't think it was a while back...my memory sux tho
 854 2012-02-15 14:22:20 <wumpus> the gui code and core code is somewhat different
 855 2012-02-15 14:23:45 <wumpus> though not in that regard, it seems, there  {} are also on new lines
 856 2012-02-15 14:23:49 <sipa> a few days ago i was wondering why vnThreadsRunning[1] wasn't checked at shutdown
 857 2012-02-15 14:23:56 <sipa> now i notice that it sometimes reaches -1
 858 2012-02-15 14:24:15 <sipa> ... maybe satoshi noticed this as well, didn't know why, so simply stopped checking it? :p
 859 2012-02-15 14:24:36 <wumpus> hehehe
 860 2012-02-15 14:24:39 <wumpus> that'd be kind of ugly
 861 2012-02-15 14:24:55 <wumpus> hey, a bug, let's change the code to ignore it :-)
 862 2012-02-15 14:25:07 <sipa> that variable was effectively never read anywhere
 863 2012-02-15 14:25:46 <sipa> anyway, this makes #806 a bugfix
 864 2012-02-15 14:25:58 <wumpus> status: 1 anti-threads running
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 866 2012-02-15 14:26:35 <sipa> the nice thing is if you have 2 threads, and 1 anti-thread, you can never get a deadlock
 867 2012-02-15 14:26:51 <sipa> but beware of 2 anti-threads at the same time
 868 2012-02-15 14:27:06 <wumpus> wouldn't they annihilate each other?
 869 2012-02-15 14:27:12 <wumpus> and crash your process
 870 2012-02-15 14:27:27 <sipa> it's an unsolved problem in theoretical computer science
 871 2012-02-15 14:27:44 <sje> haha
 872 2012-02-15 14:28:10 <wumpus> heh
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 879 2012-02-15 14:37:03 * sipa wonders if anyone from modemcable055.233-178-173.mc.videotron.ca is here
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 882 2012-02-15 14:45:39 <sje> i have a bit of a technical question...say you create a 0 fee transaction and send it out...and say sombody stores it away but you wait for ages and there are enough fee-paying transactions to keep the miners busy for days...
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 884 2012-02-15 14:46:12 <sje> and so you do another transaction with a fee, to make it work, and that goes through
 885 2012-02-15 14:46:33 <sje> it's possible that your first transaction will pop up again unexpectedly in future, yes?
 886 2012-02-15 14:47:27 <sje> there's no way to cancel it? it doesn't matter that it's older than the one that went through?
 887 2012-02-15 14:47:53 <sipa> both can be accepted into a chain independently
 888 2012-02-15 14:47:57 <sipa> unless one depends on the other
 889 2012-02-15 14:48:07 <sje> could you effectively cancel it, by generating a transaction with the same input sequences and a very small output?
 890 2012-02-15 14:48:22 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 12500 7
 891 2012-02-15 14:48:23 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 12500 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 7, is 40 minutes and 5 seconds
 892 2012-02-15 14:50:14 <sipa> anyone see a block with invalid proof of work limit in testnet chain now?
 893 2012-02-15 14:50:21 <sipa> maybe related to gavin's recent reset
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 896 2012-02-15 14:54:20 <gmaxwell> sje: if any txn is confirmed with even a single overlapping input that old one will be invalid.
 897 2012-02-15 14:54:40 <sipa> i only get to 46722 blocks
 898 2012-02-15 14:54:42 <sje> cool gmaxwell, thanks
 899 2012-02-15 14:54:48 <sipa> while my peers claim to have 46726 blocks
 900 2012-02-15 14:55:20 <sipa> ERROR: AcceptBlock() : incorrect proof of work
 901 2012-02-15 14:55:21 <sipa> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED
 902 2012-02-15 14:55:21 <sipa> disconnecting node 107.21.228.207:18333
 903 2012-02-15 14:55:21 <sipa> Disconnected 107.21.228.207:18333 for misbehavior (score=100)
 904 2012-02-15 14:56:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: new testnet rules?
 905 2012-02-15 14:56:58 <sipa> yes, i suppose
 906 2012-02-15 14:57:04 <sipa> ha, i forked testnet
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 911 2012-02-15 15:06:04 <sipa> sje: i applied your patch, and generated 2 blocks, but i don't see any immature in the gui
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 913 2012-02-15 15:06:54 <sipa> "number of transactions: 3"
 914 2012-02-15 15:06:57 <sipa> but only two are shown
 915 2012-02-15 15:07:06 <sje> sipa: they need to be 2 blocks deep
 916 2012-02-15 15:07:09 <sje> hm
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 918 2012-02-15 15:07:19 <sipa> listtransactions shows them
 919 2012-02-15 15:07:24 <sipa> well, one of them
 920 2012-02-15 15:07:49 <sje> you got the 'new' patch?
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 922 2012-02-15 15:08:04 <sje> that fixes that signal problem you mentioned
 923 2012-02-15 15:08:48 <sje> sipa: "if (pcoin.IsCoinBase() && pcoin.GetBlocksToMaturity() > 0 && pcoin.GetDepthInMainChain() >= 2)"
 924 2012-02-15 15:09:29 <sje> i assume you're on testnet? any of those not hold?
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 926 2012-02-15 15:10:34 <sipa> #837, right?
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 929 2012-02-15 15:13:00 <sje> sipa: yes
 930 2012-02-15 15:13:25 <sipa> yes, same problem
 931 2012-02-15 15:13:43 <sipa> i compiled your ShowImmatureBalance branch directly now
 932 2012-02-15 15:15:19 <sje> i have no idea...i have watched 2 transactions mature tonight and it's updated correctly...but unfortunately no new ones incomming
 933 2012-02-15 15:15:58 <sje> i'm going to miss the burst of luck turning this thing off :(
 934 2012-02-15 15:16:04 sacarlson has joined
 935 2012-02-15 15:16:30 <sipa> i think it's just an off-by-one
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 937 2012-02-15 15:20:22 <sipa> sje: listtransactions shows them immediately
 938 2012-02-15 15:20:30 <sipa> (with depth 1)
 939 2012-02-15 15:22:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: Yes, you're discribing the intentional behavior. The GUI delays showing immature blocks. There is a big comment about this in qt/ someplace.
 940 2012-02-15 15:23:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: my recommend to sje was that he duplicate the gui behavior
 941 2012-02-15 15:23:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: i know, but it shouldn't say 3 transactions if only 2 are shown
 942 2012-02-15 15:23:55 <sipa> the wx gui also delayed showing them
 943 2012-02-15 15:24:08 <sje> i didn't modify the transaction count
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 946 2012-02-15 15:28:04 <sje> when they say 'longest block chain based on difficulty'...that's a different difficulty than the one that is adjusted bi-weekly, yes?
 947 2012-02-15 15:28:11 <sje> relating to block size?
 948 2012-02-15 15:28:42 <sipa> what they mean is sum of difficulties of the blocks in it, but the same notion of difficulty
 949 2012-02-15 15:29:51 <sipa> in realitty, it is sum of expected hashes (which is proportional to difficulty)
 950 2012-02-15 15:30:10 <sje> hm ok, thanks
 951 2012-02-15 15:30:26 <sipa> but difficulty is a floating point number that's only used in UI and RPC
 952 2012-02-15 15:30:40 <sje> i thought maybe block size would make hashing slightly more difficult, and incent inclusion of 0 fee transactions...nm
 953 2012-02-15 15:30:45 <sipa> no
 954 2012-02-15 15:30:57 <sipa> hashing speed is not influenced by size of block
 955 2012-02-15 15:31:19 <sipa> (as it is only the block header that is being hashed for proof of work)
 956 2012-02-15 15:31:43 <sje> ah, that's the merkle tree bit?
 957 2012-02-15 15:32:05 <sje> enough with the q's - thanks - i'm off to bed ;)
 958 2012-02-15 15:32:07 <sipa> yes and no
 959 2012-02-15 15:32:20 <sipa> the block header contains only the merkle root hash of the transaction id's
 960 2012-02-15 15:32:43 <sje> yes - so a new transaction can eb added just by hashing it and previous root
 961 2012-02-15 15:32:45 <sipa> but even without merkle root, if the block header just contained the hash of the transactions in it, hashing speed wouldn't depend on it
 962 2012-02-15 15:32:47 <sje> yeah?
 963 2012-02-15 15:33:01 <sipa> no, you need to rehash its path to the root
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 965 2012-02-15 15:33:25 <sje> hm...can't you just make a really unbalanced tree? :)
 966 2012-02-15 15:33:31 <sipa> no
 967 2012-02-15 15:33:39 <sipa> the merkle tree is balanced by definition
 968 2012-02-15 15:33:39 <sje> no nevermind - i'll do more research later
 969 2012-02-15 15:33:44 <sje> ok
 970 2012-02-15 15:33:58 <sje> i must sleep - thanks for answering
 971 2012-02-15 15:34:00 <sipa> for a given number of transactions, its shape is fixed
 972 2012-02-15 15:34:57 <sje> ok last one :) why is that better than a merkle list?
 973 2012-02-15 15:35:34 <sje> like a chain - hash each transaction with previous one in the list
 974 2012-02-15 15:35:55 <sje> oh - cause it means less rehashing with a new transaction - got it
 975 2012-02-15 15:36:03 <sje> ok ty and gn
 976 2012-02-15 15:36:40 <sje> hm no it doesn't ...but I MUST SLEEP :)
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 993 2012-02-15 15:58:46 <helo> are there any plans to add user-facing (GUI) p2sh features?
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1003 2012-02-15 16:07:10 <helo> i guess it would make sense to just use external tool that can yeild the script-hash to send to... if it offered a URI to launch the bitcoin client, it would be usable enough
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1006 2012-02-15 16:19:36 <wumpus> yes there will be bip16 support in the gui eventually, until then you can use external tools
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1021 2012-02-15 16:55:37 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: qubez opened issue 840 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/840>
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1029 2012-02-15 17:07:28 <xorrbit> can somoene point me to some documentation on the 'why' regarding adding the checksum to version/verack and the switching that will be taking place
1030 2012-02-15 17:08:22 <BlueMatt> highly, highly doubt there is any
1031 2012-02-15 17:08:33 <BlueMatt> but its the same reason we have checksums on every other message
1032 2012-02-15 17:09:12 <BlueMatt> corrupt data gets through tcp, so we need to checksum it ourselfs as well so that we dont get corrupt data
1033 2012-02-15 17:09:54 <sipa> the reason is this: protocol v<209 didn't have checksums; satoshi noticed that there was corruption sometimes (i suppose mostly because of coding bugs...)
1034 2012-02-15 17:10:07 <xorrbit> is there going to be an alert going out on like the 19th?
1035 2012-02-15 17:10:13 <BlueMatt> yes
1036 2012-02-15 17:10:16 d4de has quit (Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number)
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1038 2012-02-15 17:10:27 <sipa> version 209 added those checksums, but because of backward compatibility, there was an exception in place for version and verack
1039 2012-02-15 17:10:35 <xorrbit> ah okay
1040 2012-02-15 17:10:49 <sipa> on febrari 20th, that exception is removed
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1042 2012-02-15 17:10:59 <[Tycho]> Hello.
1043 2012-02-15 17:11:07 <sipa> Hello, [Tycho]
1044 2012-02-15 17:11:32 <sipa>         int64 nFee = (wtx.IsFromMe() ? wtx.GetValueOut() - nDebit : 0);
1045 2012-02-15 17:11:38 <sipa> this calculation makes no sense
1046 2012-02-15 17:11:53 <xorrbit> has the alert system ever been used in the past?
1047 2012-02-15 17:11:58 <sipa> in a mixed-from transactions, this will count the share of the other inputs as fee
1048 2012-02-15 17:12:01 <sipa> xorrbit: yes
1049 2012-02-15 17:12:06 <xorrbit> for what?
1050 2012-02-15 17:12:22 <sipa> for 0.4.0's encrypted wallet flaw, iirc
1051 2012-02-15 17:12:42 * [Tycho] never received any alarms
1052 2012-02-15 17:12:53 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: were you on 0.4.0?
1053 2012-02-15 17:13:16 <[Tycho]> I don't think so.
1054 2012-02-15 17:13:32 <BlueMatt> well thats why
1055 2012-02-15 17:13:42 pickett has joined
1056 2012-02-15 17:13:43 <[Tycho]> Actually sometimes I use 0.4.0 for mac.
1057 2012-02-15 17:14:00 <[Tycho]> But it was after the flaw.
1058 2012-02-15 17:14:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: was it decided yesterday that we want to roll a 0.5.2.1?
1059 2012-02-15 17:14:40 <BlueMatt> (with just addrMe stuff)
1060 2012-02-15 17:14:49 <xorrbit> thanks for the info everyone
1061 2012-02-15 17:15:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: that was my preference, and i believe gmaxwell agreed
1062 2012-02-15 17:15:35 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: do you want to do that, or do you want me to?
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1067 2012-02-15 17:23:13 <sipa> is there any reason to calculate fee as "sum(outputs) - debit" instead of "sum(outputs) - sum(inputs)" ?
1068 2012-02-15 17:23:21 <xorrbit> so am I right to assume that after the 20th, nodes won't care what version I send, they will expect a checksum on version messages and send back a checksum with verack, even if my version says 0.4.0 or even something lower?
1069 2012-02-15 17:24:01 <sipa> xorrbit: they will initiate the connection at version 209, and then continue negotiation
1070 2012-02-15 17:24:03 iocor has joined
1071 2012-02-15 17:24:07 <sipa> so, yes
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1074 2012-02-15 17:27:38 <xorrbit> k cool
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1077 2012-02-15 17:29:02 <BlueMatt> quick poll: who finds it poor that deepbit has been creating ~25% of recent transactions in the chain?
1078 2012-02-15 17:29:07 <BlueMatt> (deepbit payouts)
1079 2012-02-15 17:30:54 <BlueMatt> or: who doesnt care?
1080 2012-02-15 17:31:00 * xorrbit 
1081 2012-02-15 17:32:24 <Graet> i find it poor
1082 2012-02-15 17:33:12  has quit (Clown|!Clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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1084 2012-02-15 17:34:05 <Graet> was talking to gmaxwell about it other nite with some others too
1085 2012-02-15 17:34:07 <helo> the near-majority-mining-pool not acting in bitcoin's best interest is kind of spooky
1086 2012-02-15 17:35:22 <sipa> [Tycho]: do you remember the reason for not using sendmany() already?
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1088 2012-02-15 17:35:35 <helo> but the long-term impact of +25% transactions is probably not really very relevant on timescales that matter
1089 2012-02-15 17:36:02 <helo> assuming it is fixed some time soonish
1090 2012-02-15 17:36:23 <[Tycho]> sipa: not yet.
1091 2012-02-15 17:36:44 <sipa> [Tycho]: if someone would help you implement it, would you mind reconsidering?
1092 2012-02-15 17:36:45 <BlueMatt> helo: I agree if either a. its fixed soon or b. we move to thin clients tomorrow.  since b. is clearly not gonna happen, I argue a. need to
1093 2012-02-15 17:36:54 <[Tycho]> helo: why do you think that I'm not acting in bitcoin's best interest ?
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1095 2012-02-15 17:37:23 <[eval]> are you avoiding sendmany to make it easier to prune the transactions later?
1096 2012-02-15 17:37:33 <helo> it seems to be the consensus that blockchain bloat is one of the more important things to prevent
1097 2012-02-15 17:37:56 <[Tycho]> sipa: no. I don't see any way someone can help with this. But I'm still thinking about it.
1098 2012-02-15 17:37:58 <[eval]> that's one reason i can think of, depending on how pruning is implemented eventually?
1099 2012-02-15 17:38:16 <helo> so as far as not using sendmany leads to blockchain bloat, it appears to not be in bitcoin's best interest
1100 2012-02-15 17:38:19 <JFK911> When Tycho changes, there will be some new baddie responsible for the most traffic.
1101 2012-02-15 17:38:49 <sipa> [Tycho]: also, it seems that ignoring deepbit, approximately half of the miner power is behind BIP16 now
1102 2012-02-15 17:39:28 <[Tycho]> [eval]: there are some other reasons. One of them is force the people to work with big amount of TXes before the real adoption strikes.
1103 2012-02-15 17:39:45 <[Tycho]> sipa: why blockchaininfo shows other info then ?
1104 2012-02-15 17:40:03 <sipa> [Tycho]: just looking at the past few hundred blocks, that is
1105 2012-02-15 17:40:21 <[Tycho]> According to the pie chart it's 26.3% support now.
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1107 2012-02-15 17:40:54 <BlueMatt> where is the blockchain.info graph?
1108 2012-02-15 17:41:01 <BlueMatt> nvm, found it
1109 2012-02-15 17:41:06 <sipa> [Tycho]: no offence, but that sounds like the worst possible argument to me; you're basically saying something like "yes we keep polluting the earth's air to speed up research into making humans live of nitrogen"
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1112 2012-02-15 17:41:57 <[Tycho]> I'll repeat - we don't make any intentional flood or spam. All TXes are legitimate and we even limit autopayments to just one per 24h.
1113 2012-02-15 17:42:19 <sipa> Nobody is accusing you of doing otherwise.
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1115 2012-02-15 17:42:51 <sipa> But that doesn't mean there is no room for improvement, and since you are such a big player, small improvements on your part reflect strongly.
1116 2012-02-15 17:43:23 <BlueMatt> nanotube: is there a gribble command for slush's pool's hashrate?
1117 2012-02-15 17:43:25 <BlueMatt> a bc,slush?
1118 2012-02-15 17:43:30 <sipa> ;;bc,slush
1119 2012-02-15 17:43:30 <gribble> Error: "bc,slush" is not a valid command.
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1123 2012-02-15 17:44:51 <[Tycho]> Currently I'll have to work on removing all the OP_EVAL changes from my bitcoind...
1124 2012-02-15 17:45:19 <BlueMatt> dont you keep your bitcoind changes in git so you can git revert?
1125 2012-02-15 17:45:45 <[Tycho]> I did some serious changes after it.
1126 2012-02-15 17:46:01 <BlueMatt> mmm...
1127 2012-02-15 17:46:26 <[Tycho]> May be some branching can help, but I'm not sure if it will break something or not.
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1129 2012-02-15 17:47:01 <BlueMatt> you can always git revert and see if it has conflicts...
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1133 2012-02-15 17:52:50 <helo> without broad unit tests ftw
1134 2012-02-15 17:55:18 * BlueMatt plans on writing huge cblockstore-with-memory-backend block-acceptance/reorg/etc unit tests this summer
1135 2012-02-15 17:55:41 <BlueMatt> (unless someone beats me to it)
1136 2012-02-15 17:56:00 * sipa encourages BlueMatt 
1137 2012-02-15 17:56:21 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 841 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/841>
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1140 2012-02-15 17:57:33 <sipa> remarkable: the genesis block's txout is not in the txindex
1141 2012-02-15 17:57:48 <sipa> which means that the satoshi client will consider spending it as illegal :D
1142 2012-02-15 17:57:54 <BlueMatt> oh, wow...
1143 2012-02-15 17:58:01 <BlueMatt> so satoshi can never spend his first 50 BTC...
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1156 2012-02-15 18:23:50 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I don't see a need for a 0.5.2.1; if you want to do it, let me know what your name is on Gitorious and I'll give you push access to the stable repo
1157 2012-02-15 18:24:07 * BlueMatt doesnt have a gitorious account...
1158 2012-02-15 18:24:09 <luke-jr> it seems silly to make a release with known bugs
1159 2012-02-15 18:24:10 <luke-jr> IMO
1160 2012-02-15 18:24:11 <BlueMatt> can I just give you a branch to copy?
1161 2012-02-15 18:24:16 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: sure
1162 2012-02-15 18:24:25 <BlueMatt> ok, Ill whip that up later today
1163 2012-02-15 18:24:36 <BlueMatt> I agree, but if we want to rush the release without much testing, it is reasonable
1164 2012-02-15 18:24:50 <luke-jr> I see no reason to skip the testing either :p
1165 2012-02-15 18:25:07 <BlueMatt> then we can get 0.5.3 out sometime in the middle of the month (once we track down the deadlocks in 0.6)
1166 2012-02-15 18:25:09 <luke-jr> we have 5 days left, and rc2 already
1167 2012-02-15 18:25:13 <BlueMatt> and then 0.6 will probably hit on march 15
1168 2012-02-15 18:25:16 * luke-jr shrugs
1169 2012-02-15 18:25:29 <BlueMatt> I see gmaxwell's point that the deadlocks in 0.6 are scary though...
1170 2012-02-15 18:25:44 <luke-jr> yeah, but there's basically zero chance they're in 0.5.3
1171 2012-02-15 18:26:12 <luke-jr> the diff isn't very big, and the only thing that could remotely-possibly cause something like that is the UPnP changes
1172 2012-02-15 18:26:18 <sipa> we should get some of the p2pool people that reported the deadlocks in the first place to try 0.5.3
1173 2012-02-15 18:26:32 <luke-jr> good idez
1174 2012-02-15 18:26:33 <BlueMatt> well theres also the upup unchecked thing
1175 2012-02-15 18:26:35 <luke-jr> idea*
1176 2012-02-15 18:26:42 <sipa> if we can get reasonable certainty that the issue doesn't occur there, i'm fine with a 0.5.3 instead of 0.5.2.1
1177 2012-02-15 18:27:04 * luke-jr uses next-test on Eligius and hasn't had deadlocks
1178 2012-02-15 18:27:07 <luke-jr> fwiw
1179 2012-02-15 18:27:47 <luke-jr> (so it at least doesn't affect 100% of people)
1180 2012-02-15 18:28:50 b4epoche_ has joined
1181 2012-02-15 18:29:32 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1182 2012-02-15 18:29:32 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
1183 2012-02-15 18:30:34 * sipa wrote a little P2SH-vote tester in perl, which uses his latest pullreq
1184 2012-02-15 18:31:05 <sipa> remarkable: 34% in last 500 blocks, 32% in last 300, 30% in last 200, 29% in last 100
1185 2012-02-15 18:32:07 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1186 2012-02-15 18:32:10 Lolcust- has joined
1187 2012-02-15 18:32:30 <BlueMatt> for some reason it seems to really only be prevalent on windows p2pool users...
1188 2012-02-15 18:32:52 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1189 2012-02-15 18:33:16 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the p2pool crash isn't a regression, it's been around for a while.
1190 2012-02-15 18:33:24 <BlueMatt> oh, yea
1191 2012-02-15 18:33:34 <BlueMatt> what # are the deadlocks?
1192 2012-02-15 18:34:33 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: Im done with 0.5.3rc2-win32 builds, Ill have linux in a minute
1193 2012-02-15 18:34:34 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: also, please stop changing the debian/changelog for releases, its not in doc/release-process.txt for a reason
1194 2012-02-15 18:35:20 Turingi has joined
1195 2012-02-15 18:35:38 <BlueMatt> (because for some reason building packages requires that the most recent name in the changelog be the same as a local pgp key, which in this case has to be mine)
1196 2012-02-15 18:35:38 <BlueMatt> (for ppa)
1197 2012-02-15 18:35:52 xorrbit has left ()
1198 2012-02-15 18:36:10  has quit (Clown|!~clown@82.113.121.61|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1199 2012-02-15 18:36:42 <BlueMatt> (which is the only place where the debian folder is even used atm, so...)
1200 2012-02-15 18:37:11 <[Tycho]> Did BBE lost its connectivity ?
1201 2012-02-15 18:37:35 <BlueMatt> ;;seen theymos
1202 2012-02-15 18:37:35 <gribble> theymos was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 20 hours, 34 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <theymos> Why is discouraging necessary? Can't they just be rejected outright after 95% of miners are doing it?
1203 2012-02-15 18:38:37  has joined
1204 2012-02-15 18:38:54 denisx has joined
1205 2012-02-15 18:39:27 <[Tycho]> Don't shows any new blocks.
1206 2012-02-15 18:39:38 <BlueMatt> nfc
1207 2012-02-15 18:40:39 <Zarutian> "Last blocks recived was generated 18 minutes ago"
1208 2012-02-15 18:40:41 <Zarutian> eh?
1209 2012-02-15 18:40:52 Clown- has joined
1210 2012-02-15 18:41:10 <BlueMatt> was qrcode added in 0.6, or before 0.5.2?
1211 2012-02-15 18:41:16 <gmaxwell> Zarutian: so?
1212 2012-02-15 18:41:25 <[Tycho]> Zarutian: where is it ?
1213 2012-02-15 18:41:43 <Zarutian> gmaxwell: usually the longest interval I have seen has been about 12 minutes.
1214 2012-02-15 18:42:05 <gmaxwell> Zarutian: ha. You're just not watching much.
1215 2012-02-15 18:42:07 <Zarutian> 166941
1216 2012-02-15 18:42:07 <[Tycho]> Last block is 166941 or more and BBE shows up to 166899 only.
1217 2012-02-15 18:42:42 <gmaxwell> Zarutian: we had something like an hour gap last week. It's expected.
1218 2012-02-15 18:43:05 barmstrong has joined
1219 2012-02-15 18:43:16  has quit (Clown|!~clown@82.113.121.61|Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1220 2012-02-15 18:43:42 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ^
1221 2012-02-15 18:43:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: can you put the windows build online?
1222 2012-02-15 18:44:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: working on it...
1223 2012-02-15 18:44:16 gavinandresen has joined
1224 2012-02-15 18:44:25 <sipa> wait, this issue also existed in 0.5.2?
1225 2012-02-15 18:44:35 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1226 2012-02-15 18:44:37 <BlueMatt> the win32 p2pool crashes? yes
1227 2012-02-15 18:44:39 <gmaxwell> Absolutely.
1228 2012-02-15 18:44:42 <sipa> then there is little reason to do a 0.5.2.1, imho
1229 2012-02-15 18:45:11 <gmaxwell> Wires are crossed here.
1230 2012-02-15 18:45:21 <sipa> ?
1231 2012-02-15 18:45:25 * BlueMatt wants to see at least the upnp checkbox doesnt work bug fixed
1232 2012-02-15 18:45:26 <gmaxwell> We have _other_ deadlocks reported on 0.6rc1 that are not p2pool related.
1233 2012-02-15 18:45:33 <sipa> ah
1234 2012-02-15 18:45:37 <gmaxwell> (and deadlocks, not crashes, the p2pool thing is a crash IIRC)
1235 2012-02-15 18:45:49 <BlueMatt> (because otherwise the upnp fix isnt worth much...)
1236 2012-02-15 18:45:55 wasabi2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1237 2012-02-15 18:46:06 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the 0000 part of it is but sure.
1238 2012-02-15 18:46:09 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1239 2012-02-15 18:46:29 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, yea
1240 2012-02-15 18:46:37 sacredchao has joined
1241 2012-02-15 18:46:37 Graet has joined
1242 2012-02-15 18:46:41 <gavinandresen> @)*%&#)@)(*#$ deadlocks....
1243 2012-02-15 18:46:44 Graet is now known as Guest23259
1244 2012-02-15 18:46:51 <BlueMatt>  /nod
1245 2012-02-15 18:47:10 <gmaxwell> well, at least the one reported was a livelock. 100% cpu usage, last thing in the log was dnsseed.
1246 2012-02-15 18:47:22 <gmaxwell> On MacOS lion
1247 2012-02-15 18:47:31 <gmaxwell> (I think lion? it was OSX at least)
1248 2012-02-15 18:47:41 <gavinandresen> sipa: running git head overnight I see this in my console this morning:  Assertion failed: (addr.sin_family == AF_INET), function CService, file netbase.cpp, line 612.
1249 2012-02-15 18:47:55 Guest23259 is now known as Graet
1250 2012-02-15 18:48:04 Graet has quit (Changing host)
1251 2012-02-15 18:48:04 Graet has joined
1252 2012-02-15 18:49:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: lion sounds right
1253 2012-02-15 18:49:54 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: Bitcoin-Qt always uses 100% of one cpu on my mac.  It's on my list to debug....
1254 2012-02-15 18:50:03 <sipa> gavinandresen: that means somehow a CNetAddr is constructed from an invalid struct sockaddr_in
1255 2012-02-15 18:50:32 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: that doesnt sound good...
1256 2012-02-15 18:50:38 localhost has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1257 2012-02-15 18:51:05 smickles is now known as idle!~michael@cpe-071-070-169-083.nc.res.rr.com|smickles
1258 2012-02-15 18:52:10 <mcorlett> Theoretical situation: If I control all the nodes a pool is connected to, can I hijack its block and "steal" the block reward?
1259 2012-02-15 18:52:25 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: No.
1260 2012-02-15 18:52:28 <BlueMatt> not really
1261 2012-02-15 18:52:33 <BlueMatt> but sort of
1262 2012-02-15 18:52:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: the only possibility for that error i see is that your node somehow accepted a non-IPv4 connections
1263 2012-02-15 18:52:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: please return the crack pipe.
1264 2012-02-15 18:52:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ...?
1265 2012-02-15 18:52:59 <mcorlett> Do tell, BlueMatt and gmaxwell!
1266 2012-02-15 18:53:00 <gmaxwell> You can't _steal_ the block reward. You can make the pool lose it.
1267 2012-02-15 18:53:20 <BlueMatt> mcorlett: oh, hijack block no
1268 2012-02-15 18:53:26 <BlueMatt> but you can make its blocks worthless
1269 2012-02-15 18:53:38 <gmaxwell> Right, just delay it long enough and it won't get extended.
1270 2012-02-15 18:54:24 <gmaxwell> but it's approx the same as shutting off the pools network port— which is the level of control you'd need to be able to do that in any case.
1271 2012-02-15 18:54:40 JRWR has joined
1272 2012-02-15 18:54:42 <mcorlett> Doesn't the block include all the magic stuff that makes up a valid hash for that difficulty?
1273 2012-02-15 18:54:52 <gavinandresen> sipa: last item in debug.log is:  Disconnected 88.198.7.53:18333 for misbehavior (score=100)
1274 2012-02-15 18:54:58 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: Yes.
1275 2012-02-15 18:55:11 <gavinandresen> sipa:  maybe a possible use-after-free situation?
1276 2012-02-15 18:55:27 <mcorlett> gmaxwell: So I can make my own block with that stuff, holding onto the pool's so that it doesn't get broadcasted to the network - no?
1277 2012-02-15 18:55:34 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: No.
1278 2012-02-15 18:55:48 localhost has joined
1279 2012-02-15 18:56:12 <sipa> mcorlett: the block's proof-of-work generated by the pool will be invalid if you change to payout address to yourself
1280 2012-02-15 18:56:16 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: The block's proof of work is a committment to every bit of data in the block. Change even one bit (like where the subsidy is paid) and the hash changes and the solution is no longer a winning one.
1281 2012-02-15 18:56:23 <BlueMatt> sipa luke-jr: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29653426/bitcoin-0.5.3rc2-win32-gitian.zip
1282 2012-02-15 18:56:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: can you PGP sign that?
1283 2012-02-15 18:56:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: already pushed to github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs
1284 2012-02-15 18:57:05 <mcorlett> sipa, gmaxwell: That makes perfect sense. Clever guy, this Satoshi.
1285 2012-02-15 18:57:38 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: Have you seen the paper? It's pretty good. http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
1286 2012-02-15 18:59:18 <mcorlett> gmaxwell: I've seen it. I've even read it! I understand the basic concepts, but some stuff is still fairly hazy.
1287 2012-02-15 18:59:51 <BlueMatt> there were a couple really good technical explanations on a few podcasts around this time last year
1288 2012-02-15 18:59:52 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: Fair enough— I like to push that document, a lot of people haven't read it and it answers a lot of stuff, though as you point out— far from everything.
1289 2012-02-15 18:59:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: no, the only possible call site (a stack trace would be useful to be sure) is after the accept() call in net.cpp
1290 2012-02-15 18:59:58 <BlueMatt> (iirc the best one was an interview gavin did)
1291 2012-02-15 19:00:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: i suppose it's possible to accept something that isn't AF_INET
1292 2012-02-15 19:00:26 <Zarutian> sipa: such as AF_DOMAIN?
1293 2012-02-15 19:01:20 <BlueMatt> wait, so the libqrcode thing was just 0.6rc1, qr isnt in 0.5.X...
1294 2012-02-15 19:01:32 <gmaxwell> such as AF_INET6?
1295 2012-02-15 19:01:32 <BlueMatt> did anyone fix the readme for that yet?
1296 2012-02-15 19:01:51 <gavinandresen> sipa: you know how I keep telling people networking isn't my strong suit? ...  (I have no idea what AF_foo's are for)
1297 2012-02-15 19:02:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: AF_INET6 shouldn't happen if the accept happens on a socket bound to an AF_INET address
1298 2012-02-15 19:03:33 molecular has joined
1299 2012-02-15 19:04:34 <luke-jr> why bind AF_INET at all? O.o
1300 2012-02-15 19:06:59 <sipa> gavinandresen: AF_INET == IPv4 address family
1301 2012-02-15 19:07:55 Karmaon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1302 2012-02-15 19:08:04 <sipa> gavinandresen: it's easy to fix the problem assuming it occurs where i believe it does, but i don't see how it's possible
1303 2012-02-15 19:08:21 XMPPwocky has quit (Quit: leaving)
1304 2012-02-15 19:08:36 XMPPwocky has joined
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1306 2012-02-15 19:09:27 <gavinandresen> sipa: ok; maybe tonight I'll run a couple of bitcoind's, one under valgrind and one under gdb, see if I can get it to happen again...
1307 2012-02-15 19:10:37 <sipa> it may be mac-specific, though
1308 2012-02-15 19:10:45 <sipa> or was this on linux, gavinandresen?
1309 2012-02-15 19:10:56 <gavinandresen> mac
1310 2012-02-15 19:13:31 JRWR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1311 2012-02-15 19:13:36 <sipa> any network experts here that can answer: can a socket bound to an AF_INET address accept connections where the partner doesn't have an AF_INET address?
1312 2012-02-15 19:13:44 JRWR has joined
1313 2012-02-15 19:15:00 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1314 2012-02-15 19:15:42 vigilyn has joined
1315 2012-02-15 19:16:37 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1316 2012-02-15 19:20:23 <sipa> gavinandresen: btw, my estimate for BIP16 support: 34.60% +- 2.13%
1317 2012-02-15 19:21:35 <gavinandresen> sipa: cool, thanks.  I'm writing up a meeting summary to post to bitcoin-development right now...
1318 2012-02-15 19:21:37 wasabi1 has joined
1319 2012-02-15 19:22:33 <sipa> (that's from 173 /P2SH/ markers in the past 500 blocks)
1320 2012-02-15 19:23:07 aga has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1321 2012-02-15 19:24:07 ovidiusoft has joined
1322 2012-02-15 19:24:17 <mcorlett> Is there something like a version of the Bitcoin white paper, only in layman's terms? That'd be immensely helpful.
1323 2012-02-15 19:24:47 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1324 2012-02-15 19:24:55 <diki> What tools are there at the moment, besides pywallet, that can import private keys?
1325 2012-02-15 19:25:20 <sipa> diki: bitcoind 0.6.0rc1 can
1326 2012-02-15 19:25:36 wasabi2 has joined
1327 2012-02-15 19:25:48 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1328 2012-02-15 19:27:55 wasabi1 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1329 2012-02-15 19:29:01 <gavinandresen> mcorlett: I thought this turned out nicely:  http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-decentralized-currency/
1330 2012-02-15 19:29:58 [Tycho] has joined
1331 2012-02-15 19:30:28 <mcorlett> gavinandresen: Ooo! That sounds great. I'll put it on my iPod for the drive to work tomorrow. Do you go into the technical aspects much?
1332 2012-02-15 19:30:40 <gavinandresen> mcorlett: yes
1333 2012-02-15 19:32:13 Clown- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1334 2012-02-15 19:37:28 aga has joined
1335 2012-02-15 19:37:40 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1336 2012-02-15 19:37:51  has joined
1337 2012-02-15 19:39:32 sacarlson has joined
1338 2012-02-15 19:43:14 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 842 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/842>
1339 2012-02-15 19:43:38 <sipa> gavinandresen: there's a fix for the presumed problem... but maybe better investigate it further first
1340 2012-02-15 19:44:23 iocor has joined
1341 2012-02-15 19:44:36 <sipa> wait a second... it's a lot easier; if accept() fails, sin_family is not set
1342 2012-02-15 19:44:52 slush has joined
1343 2012-02-15 19:45:00 <BlueMatt> luke-jr sipa:  0.5.3rc2 linux: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29653426/bitcoin-0.5.3rc2-gitian.zip
1344 2012-02-15 19:46:31 <slush> hi, I didn't catch the change on the network on Feb 20. Do I need to do something when I'm using 0.3.24?
1345 2012-02-15 19:46:47 <BlueMatt> slush: no, you should be fine if your nat isnt insane
1346 2012-02-15 19:47:05 <BlueMatt> slush: may have issues making new connections for a few seconds around midnight, but that should be it
1347 2012-02-15 19:47:22 <slush> pool isn't behind NAT at all, so it should be fine
1348 2012-02-15 19:47:23 <Graet> midnight where?
1349 2012-02-15 19:47:29 <BlueMatt> slush: yep
1350 2012-02-15 19:47:31 <sipa> Graet: UTC
1351 2012-02-15 19:47:34 <Graet> ty
1352 2012-02-15 19:47:38 <slush> great, I was little nervous. Thanks
1353 2012-02-15 19:47:46 <Graet> :)
1354 2012-02-15 19:47:51 <sipa> slush: any version since 0.2.9 should be fine ;)
1355 2012-02-15 19:47:53 <BlueMatt> should be no problems for 99.9% of people
1356 2012-02-15 19:49:02 JRWR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1357 2012-02-15 19:49:18 JRWR has joined
1358 2012-02-15 19:49:47 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: do you want to get 0.5.3rc2 out today?
1359 2012-02-15 19:52:05 [Tycho] has joined
1360 2012-02-15 19:53:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I see no reason not to.
1361 2012-02-15 19:54:08 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: nice
1362 2012-02-15 19:54:54 <luke-jr> who's doing the 2nd build? :P
1363 2012-02-15 19:55:10 <luke-jr> and Mac
1364 2012-02-15 19:55:16 <BlueMatt> sipa: ? gavinandresen: ?
1365 2012-02-15 19:55:38 <luke-jr> I have to prepare for court tomorrow morning, so consider me mostly-MIA for today
1366 2012-02-15 19:56:01 <BlueMatt> fair enough, Ill get builds together and ping you when thats done
1367 2012-02-15 19:56:06 <luke-jr> ok
1368 2012-02-15 19:56:08 <luke-jr> thanks
1369 2012-02-15 19:56:11 pingdrive has joined
1370 2012-02-15 19:56:35 m00p has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1371 2012-02-15 19:57:54 wasabi2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1372 2012-02-15 19:58:05 <sipa> BlueMatt: I'll do a gitian build soon
1373 2012-02-15 19:58:05 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I could start a build, where's the tag?
1374 2012-02-15 19:58:18 att has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1375 2012-02-15 19:58:56 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: https://git.gitorious.org/+bitcoin-stable-developers/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable.git tag v0.5.3rc2
1376 2012-02-15 19:59:00 <BlueMatt> sipa: thanks
1377 2012-02-15 19:59:57 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1378 2012-02-15 20:04:16 smickles is now known as smickles|idle
1379 2012-02-15 20:05:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: your win32-gitian is Linux somehow
1380 2012-02-15 20:07:01 <BlueMatt> wtf???
1381 2012-02-15 20:07:09 <BlueMatt> damn, mustve been testing something at the time...
1382 2012-02-15 20:07:13 <BlueMatt> one minute
1383 2012-02-15 20:07:45 <sipa> gavinandresen: here is a real fix for your problem: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/842
1384 2012-02-15 20:08:08 <helo> anyone know where tradehill is based?
1385 2012-02-15 20:08:36 dlb76 has joined
1386 2012-02-15 20:09:15 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1387 2012-02-15 20:10:29 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1388 2012-02-15 20:10:33 <sipa> BlueMatt: there are currently 4 pull requests that i'd consider bugfixes... shouldn't we wait a tiny bit, so they can go in 0.5.3?
1389 2012-02-15 20:11:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: do they all apply to 0.5.X?
1390 2012-02-15 20:11:18 <BlueMatt> (also, which ones)
1391 2012-02-15 20:11:42 RazielZ has joined
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1393 2012-02-15 20:13:19 <sipa> 842, 838, 828, 806
1394 2012-02-15 20:13:30 <sipa> only the latter two apply to 0.5.X, afaik
1395 2012-02-15 20:13:49 pusle has joined
1396 2012-02-15 20:13:53 att has joined
1397 2012-02-15 20:14:03 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 843 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/843>
1398 2012-02-15 20:14:28 <BlueMatt> (dont pull that yet, still testing it myself)
1399 2012-02-15 20:14:41 * BlueMatt afk for like 20 minutes...
1400 2012-02-15 20:15:12 <luke-jr> sipa: we can always do a rc3
1401 2012-02-15 20:15:30 <sipa> luke-jr: sure, i suppose that's what will happen then
1402 2012-02-15 20:16:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: 806 is really barely worth backporting...
1403 2012-02-15 20:17:05 <BlueMatt> 828 is
1404 2012-02-15 20:18:41 <sipa> BlueMatt: fair enough
1405 2012-02-15 20:18:54 <luke-jr> 806 is not only bugfix :/
1406 2012-02-15 20:19:06 <denisx> das wird iPad HD heissen
1407 2012-02-15 20:19:10 <denisx> ups
1408 2012-02-15 20:19:16 <sipa> luke-jr: i'll split it up if you really want to, but it's a bit double work then
1409 2012-02-15 20:19:39 <luke-jr> sipa: that'd save me time, or I can do it (eventually) if you note all the bugs fixed specifically ;)
1410 2012-02-15 20:21:06 <luke-jr> hmm, anyone ever file a pro se "you're fired, attorney"?
1411 2012-02-15 20:22:44 <sipa> luke-jr: court... anything bitcoin-related?
1412 2012-02-15 20:23:06 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: build is failing for me, mv: cannot stat `/home/ubuntu/out/src/locale': No such file or directory
1413 2012-02-15 20:23:10 <luke-jr> sipa: no
1414 2012-02-15 20:23:16 <gavinandresen> (that's the last line in build.log)
1415 2012-02-15 20:23:18 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1416 2012-02-15 20:23:47 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: gitian build?
1417 2012-02-15 20:23:52 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes
1418 2012-02-15 20:24:02 <BlueMatt> odd, wfm
1419 2012-02-15 20:24:09 <BlueMatt> one minute...
1420 2012-02-15 20:24:38 pingdrive has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1423 2012-02-15 20:26:31 * BlueMatt bb in ~15 min
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1425 2012-02-15 20:29:16 <sipa> luke-jr: #844 is the bugfix-only version of 806
1426 2012-02-15 20:29:18 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 844 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/844>
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1433 2012-02-15 20:47:33 <sipa> who adminstrates bitcoin.it?
1434 2012-02-15 20:48:26 <luke-jr> MT
1435 2012-02-15 20:48:53 BlueMatt has joined
1436 2012-02-15 20:49:15 <sipa> hmm
1437 2012-02-15 20:49:42 wasabi1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1438 2012-02-15 20:50:17 <sipa> is there a way to create a "BIP include box" or something, so that all BIP pages could get a [[bip]] tag in their source, which translates to a box with "This is a Bitcoin Improvement Process. For more information, or for creating your own BIP, see .../BIP_0001" ?
1439 2012-02-15 20:50:26 <sipa> (i don't know anything about mediawiki)
1440 2012-02-15 20:50:43 <BlueMatt> a. yes, but you can always go to the Bitcoin_Improvement_Process page iirc
1441 2012-02-15 20:50:46 <BlueMatt> (it lists them all)
1442 2012-02-15 20:51:04 <sipa> s/Process/Proposal/
1443 2012-02-15 20:51:41 <sipa> because i've seen more people think that a BIP is created by writing a wiki page than others
1444 2012-02-15 20:53:59 att has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1445 2012-02-15 20:54:08 <diki> BIPs should be written on paper
1446 2012-02-15 20:54:27 <sipa> diki: keep living in the 20th century
1447 2012-02-15 20:54:36 <diki> I will, thanks
1448 2012-02-15 20:55:00 <diki> I heard the new Cyrixx processor is due out in 3 months, amazing 200mhz
1449 2012-02-15 20:55:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure.
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1460 2012-02-15 21:12:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: it was a bit of a rhetoric question :)
1461 2012-02-15 21:13:43 <ThomasV_> http://blockchain.info/ <-- why is Age(166953) > Age(166952) ?
1462 2012-02-15 21:14:32 <sipa> ThomasV_: why not?
1463 2012-02-15 21:14:34 <sipa> it's allowed
1464 2012-02-15 21:14:53 <ThomasV_> how is Age defined?
1465 2012-02-15 21:15:03 <sipa> now - block.timestamp
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1467 2012-02-15 21:16:01 <ThomasV_> so, timestamp(166953) > timestamp(166952) ?
1468 2012-02-15 21:16:12 <ThomasV_> err, I mean <
1469 2012-02-15 21:17:13 <BlueMatt> yep
1470 2012-02-15 21:17:29 <ThomasV_> how is the timestamp defined?
1471 2012-02-15 21:17:42 <BlueMatt> the number put in the block by the miner
1472 2012-02-15 21:17:47 <ThomasV_> oh
1473 2012-02-15 21:17:49 <ThomasV_> ok
1474 2012-02-15 21:18:26 <ThomasV_> I guess there must be some funny ones, then.
1475 2012-02-15 21:18:28 <sipa> as the integer obtained by interpreted the 68th-71th byte of the block header as a little-endien unsigned integer
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1484 2012-02-15 21:39:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: Do you work for IBM?
1485 2012-02-15 21:39:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: no?
1486 2012-02-15 21:40:08 <gmaxwell> (Your answer was detailed and accurate but useless :) )
1487 2012-02-15 21:40:17 <sipa> haha
1488 2012-02-15 21:40:38 <gmaxwell> ThomasV_: the only constraint on the timestamp is that it has to be > the median of the last 11, and < 2 hours into the future when you recieve the block.
1489 2012-02-15 21:41:03 <gmaxwell> ThomasV_: ideally miners would write accurate time into it, but they don't always— for various reasons.
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1491 2012-02-15 21:41:29 <denisx> wouldn't it be possible to put in a delay in sendto to make a sendtomany after some minutes?
1492 2012-02-15 21:41:36 <denisx> so it would be a little automatic?
1493 2012-02-15 21:41:49 <ThomasV_> gmaxwell: thanks. indeed, I like your answer better :)
1494 2012-02-15 21:41:57 <gmaxwell> denisx: Thats on my personal feature wishlist, it would need to be a new call, because the send api returns the txn id.
1495 2012-02-15 21:42:15 <gmaxwell> denisx: and, that would need to return some handle you could query for status.
1496 2012-02-15 21:42:28 <sipa> In hope of improving my average answer's usefulness, it is actually up to 70 minutes into the future, not 2 hours.
1497 2012-02-15 21:42:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: erp. where did I get two hours from 0_o
1498 2012-02-15 21:43:08 safra has joined
1499 2012-02-15 21:43:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: i was thinking about such "transaction merging", but the problem is that combining two transactions into one by just concatenating inputs and outputs may result in something that violates fee policy
1500 2012-02-15 21:44:02 <gmaxwell> I got it from here,     // Check timestamp
1501 2012-02-15 21:44:02 <gmaxwell>     if (GetBlockTime() > GetAdjustedTime() + 2 * 60 * 60)
1502 2012-02-15 21:44:02 <gmaxwell>         return error("CheckBlock() : block timestamp too far in the future");
1503 2012-02-15 21:44:31 <sipa> huh... now i wonder where did i get 70 minutes from?
1504 2012-02-15 21:44:50 <gmaxwell> Your node time can be moved 70 minutes by peers.
1505 2012-02-15 21:44:59 <sipa> Ooh... right
1506 2012-02-15 21:45:04 <BlueMatt> can I get acks on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/843
1507 2012-02-15 21:45:19 <sipa> ThomasV_: apologies; it seems my answer was totally useless after all :)
1508 2012-02-15 21:45:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think you don't do that— you queue and then form a sendmany later. E.g. just queue up outputs.
1509 2012-02-15 21:45:55 <doublec> BlueMatt: s/compliation/compilation/
1510 2012-02-15 21:46:13 <BlueMatt> doublec: oops, heh...
1511 2012-02-15 21:46:17 <ThomasV_> sipa: np
1512 2012-02-15 21:46:33 <BlueMatt> doublec: fixed
1513 2012-02-15 21:46:35 <doublec> I always pick the hanging fruit in reviews ;)
1514 2012-02-15 21:46:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: right, i was reasoning from a "preparesend" command that would return an inspectable transaction which is not yet committed/sent out
1515 2012-02-15 21:46:41 <doublec> s/hanging/low hanging/
1516 2012-02-15 21:46:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: but this is a layer below it even
1517 2012-02-15 21:47:00 <gmaxwell> (if it wanted to be extra smart it could use a special solver than looked for optimal partitionings into N transactions... but not really interesting unless you have many outputs)
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1519 2012-02-15 21:49:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: i want that preparetx to deal with all complainers about unexpected fees... so you'd have a call to create a transaction, which would be inspectable using gettransaction, and can be committed or aborted using confirmtransaction or aborttransaction
1520 2012-02-15 21:50:02 <sipa> now you give a use case for a queuetransaction that does not yet create the transaction itself, but only remembers some outputs to be created
1521 2012-02-15 21:50:02 <gmaxwell> hm. though locking inputs waiting for confirmation may _cause_ more unexpected fees. :(
1522 2012-02-15 21:50:27 <sipa> yes, but at least they won't be uncontrollable
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1524 2012-02-15 21:52:12 <gmaxwell> I guess people could be advised to seralize their use of preparetx. E.g. don't have multiple preparetx going at once if they can avoid it.
1525 2012-02-15 21:52:27 <gmaxwell> or perhaps a preparetx with an add function.
1526 2012-02-15 21:52:50 <gmaxwell> Though, I feel like an automatically managed queue has value.
1527 2012-02-15 21:53:05 <sipa> now, that would potentially mean 3 ways of creating transactions (queued, direct, or prepated), and several types of outputs to be created (sendto, sendmany, sendveryfancyescrow, ...)
1528 2012-02-15 21:53:20 <sipa> i don't feel like having M*N RPC commands for that
1529 2012-02-15 21:53:27 <gmaxwell> e.g. the more manual way would be a preparetx that locks inputs, and then an add function that adds outputs and gives you a new prepared txn.
1530 2012-02-15 21:54:16 <sipa> oh yes, augmenttransaction, nice one!
1531 2012-02-15 21:54:40 <sipa> anything else, perhaps merging two prepared transactions into one?
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1533 2012-02-15 21:55:40 <gmaxwell> oy. augmenttransaction could just take either another output, multiple outputs, or a whole other prepared txn to gobbleup.
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1535 2012-02-15 21:56:09 <gmaxwell> Though as I said, because of input locking, I'd probably not want preparetxn to be run in parallel, it might not even be _possible.
1536 2012-02-15 21:56:25 <gmaxwell> Say you have only one input in your wallet. You can't do two outstanding preparetxn.
1537 2012-02-15 21:56:44 <gmaxwell> The second can't plan on using the change from the first, because you may not ever execute the first.
1538 2012-02-15 21:57:17 <gmaxwell> And we don't exactly encourage (nor should we) users to think much about the distribution of inputs in their wallets.
1539 2012-02-15 22:00:31 <gavinandresen> bleugh.  I'd rather RPC calls that gave you a list of unspent inputs in the wallet and that submitted a transaction that your code constructed itself.  More general....
1540 2012-02-15 22:00:55 <gavinandresen> (and maybe a "reserve this set of inputs, I'm gonna do something with them real soon now")
1541 2012-02-15 22:01:06 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: As someone who sometimes collects mining fees I fully support that idea! :-)
1542 2012-02-15 22:01:44 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
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1544 2012-02-15 22:01:57 <gmaxwell> (meaning I suspect people will create 1000 btc fee transactions that way with some regularity)
1545 2012-02-15 22:02:37 <gmaxwell> They'll also create coin selection which works like "sort from smallest to largest, add until you're >= the target".
1546 2012-02-15 22:02:41 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1547 2012-02-15 22:03:04 <sipa> gmaxwell: even better, they may forget to create a change output
1548 2012-02-15 22:03:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: that was my 1000 btc example.
1549 2012-02-15 22:03:27 <sipa> right
1550 2012-02-15 22:04:24 <gmaxwell> I think this space is a hard problem, but we don't solve it by punting. I guess there are cases for external coin selection, but I'd feel bad about just giving people the sticks of dynamite and telling them they don't need saws anymore. :)
1551 2012-02-15 22:04:43 <gavinandresen> Wouldn't be hard to add an (override-able) sanity check on the transaction, and have the RPC fail if sum(inputs)-sum(outputs) > sane_fee_value
1552 2012-02-15 22:04:43 <doublec> there's getmemorypool for creating your own blocks, a way to create your own transactions seems like a complementary addition.
1553 2012-02-15 22:05:57 <gmaxwell> doublec: ::nods:: but doing that doesn't actually solve any of the problems that people have come to us with. Instead, it asks them to resolve a bunch of tricky things that we currently handle okay (if not optimally).
1554 2012-02-15 22:06:43 <doublec> gmaxwell: it moves things out so app developers can solve the problems themselves
1555 2012-02-15 22:06:49 wasabi2 has joined
1556 2012-02-15 22:06:50 <gmaxwell> I wasn't just being silly about the fee-pessimal example for coin selection— some alternative client developer on the forum had coded that. (though at least had the sense to ask if it was sane)
1557 2012-02-15 22:06:51 <doublec> gmaxwell: whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen :)
1558 2012-02-15 22:06:52 JRWR has quit (Quit: BTC Welcome: 19QtYzmENUmqRhvjEvHsz785rqZ5RRcZG4)
1559 2012-02-15 22:07:43 <gmaxwell> In any case, I'd presume to wait for that until someone actually stepped up and said "I have a use case for this"
1560 2012-02-15 22:07:50 <doublec> there seems to be a move (by pool operators?) to do more outside the client these days
1561 2012-02-15 22:07:54 <gmaxwell> er persume it better
1562 2012-02-15 22:08:17 <gavinandresen> I wrote a bitcointool to look at coinbase[0:4] and interepret it as an integer, to see if we already have coinbases that would look like a future block height
1563 2012-02-15 22:08:31 <gavinandresen> There are three right now:  https://gist.github.com/1839260
1564 2012-02-15 22:08:48 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: assuming BE or LE ordering?
1565 2012-02-15 22:08:55 <gavinandresen> LE
1566 2012-02-15 22:09:08 <gmaxwell> Because BE would start with 0x00 would that help?
1567 2012-02-15 22:09:41 wasabi1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1568 2012-02-15 22:09:49 <gavinandresen> Maybe...   There are zero that begin with 0x04 and have a reasonable next-4-LE-bytes-as-block-height
1569 2012-02-15 22:10:46 <sipa> how did you define 'reasonable' ?
1570 2012-02-15 22:10:58 <gavinandresen> sipa:  next 200 years
1571 2012-02-15 22:11:05 <sipa> sounds reasonable
1572 2012-02-15 22:11:08 <gmaxwell> doublec: getmemorypool was submitted by forest because p2pool needs to write its own coinbases and so it needed some way to get transactions into the blocks. It also makes sense because patching the client for sane high performance mining behavior sucks. I don't know if its a general trend.
1573 2012-02-15 22:13:05 <gavinandresen> I think it is a general trend, and I think it is a Good Thing.
1574 2012-02-15 22:13:25 <gavinandresen> bitcoind can't be all things to all people....
1575 2012-02-15 22:14:22 <cjd> generate a magic number, xor it against first 4 bytes every coinbase, if one comes out to be in the future, change the magic number, when you get a magic number that makes everything look ok, bake it into the source (with a comment)
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1577 2012-02-15 22:14:39 <sipa> how about this: the client maintains a single incomplete transaction; you have commands to add outputs (single address, multiple addresses, escrow, manual base64-encoded txout script + amount, ...), and commands to manually add particular inputs to that transaction
1578 2012-02-15 22:15:06 <sipa> finally, there is a command to "complete" it, which allows it to be revised, and either accepted in its entirety or cancelled
1579 2012-02-15 22:15:18 * cjd has a lot of ideas which are aweful but would probably work :)
1580 2012-02-15 22:15:48 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: there is a line between failing to be all things to all people, and failing to be anything to anyone. :) I just hope we're on the right side of that line. I think the getmemorypool stuff is reasonable enough... I feel less easy about external transactions.
1581 2012-02-15 22:16:47 <gmaxwell> I know of one example of someone with application specific transaction code being put into production. And thats mtgox and they burned several thousand btc in the process.
1582 2012-02-15 22:17:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: I feel like someone else wrote a proposal a lot like that before.
1583 2012-02-15 22:18:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: or at least if you add a few more steps— e.g. export the pending transaction to get signatures on an external device and reimport it.
1584 2012-02-15 22:18:57 <sipa> ah, you mean BIP 10?
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1589 2012-02-15 22:22:35 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: lots of coinbases start with 0x00, so BE-integer is Right Out.
1590 2012-02-15 22:23:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: there was something even earlier than that proposed by someone but they didn't code any of it.
1591 2012-02-15 22:25:46 <gmaxwell> It had a "add outputs... " ("add inputs") "finalize (adds inputs/change outputs, compute fees if any missing)" (export) (import) "sign" "transmit"  steps IIRC.
1592 2012-02-15 22:25:50 <gmaxwell> I wish I could find it.
1593 2012-02-15 22:27:18 <cjd> would be kinda neat if you could craft a tx and then pass it to the engine and have it spit out a report on it something like the blockexplorer raw format
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1604 2012-02-15 22:59:17 <BlueMatt> sipa: have you run gitian builds for 0.5.3rc2?
1605 2012-02-15 23:00:33 <sipa> dang, forgot
1606 2012-02-15 23:00:36 <sipa> let me do that now
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1608 2012-02-15 23:03:05 <sipa> i don't find a 0.5.3rc2 tag?
1609 2012-02-15 23:03:13 <BlueMatt> its in luke's stable repo
1610 2012-02-15 23:03:52 <sipa> never mind, my mistake
1611 2012-02-15 23:05:37 <sipa> any extra things i need to download? (i'm lazy)
1612 2012-02-15 23:05:42 <luke-jr> sipa: want to copy the stable tags to the main repo by any chance? :P
1613 2012-02-15 23:05:45 <BlueMatt> shouldnt
1614 2012-02-15 23:06:02 <BlueMatt> be
1615 2012-02-15 23:06:33 <sipa> luke-jr: i believe they should be, but i'd like gavin ack on that
1616 2012-02-15 23:07:03 <luke-jr> someone pushed at least some of them a while back I think
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1622 2012-02-15 23:09:24 <BlueMatt> my proper win32: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29653426/bitcoin-0.5.3rc2-win32-gitian.zip
1623 2012-02-15 23:09:47 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: is your 6970/2.6-friendly kernel the one that was pushed to github 17 days ago?
1624 2012-02-15 23:10:00 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: no
1625 2012-02-15 23:10:07 <Diablo-D3> it was pushed yesterday
1626 2012-02-15 23:10:26 <midnightmagic> okay
1627 2012-02-15 23:10:27 <Diablo-D3> it says clearly "2.6 friendly kernel" on the commit
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1630 2012-02-15 23:12:03 <midnightmagic> ah, the github push bundles the "shave one add off" commit together with the "friendly kernel".
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1635 2012-02-15 23:14:45 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: ?
1636 2012-02-15 23:14:57 <Diablo-D3> oh, yes, I pushed those at the same time
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1640 2012-02-15 23:28:02 <sipa> BlueMatt: where do i get the files mentioned in gitian-win32.yml?
1641 2012-02-15 23:28:25 <sipa> i don't have the qt and boost ones
1642 2012-02-15 23:28:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: you have to run the other two *-win32.yml gitian descriptors first
1643 2012-02-15 23:28:54 <BlueMatt> (and the copy the resulting zips to input)
1644 2012-02-15 23:29:15 <BlueMatt> (note that gitian clears output before each run, so make sure to grab the zips before starting the next run)
1645 2012-02-15 23:29:28 <sipa> i thought gavin said something about using downloaded ones for those, or it wouldn't be deterministic
1646 2012-02-15 23:30:01 <BlueMatt> oh, oops you are right, one sec
1647 2012-02-15 23:30:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: http://skypaint.com/bitcoin/
1648 2012-02-15 23:32:04 <sipa> should maybe be mentioned in the README
1649 2012-02-15 23:32:14 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: What would you be okay with me doing after I integrate (if it's not already) your miner kernel with my copy of cgminer?
1650 2012-02-15 23:32:41 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: there is a copy of Diablo's kernel in cgminer to begin with
1651 2012-02-15 23:34:02 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: because con is already trying to do it
1652 2012-02-15 23:34:10 <Diablo-D3> and Ive been helping him
1653 2012-02-15 23:34:17 <Diablo-D3> I think Im going to end up having to do it myself
1654 2012-02-15 23:34:44 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: if you are doing to work to port your kernel to cgminer, why keep maintaining your miner?
1655 2012-02-15 23:35:03 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: because cgminer is a pile of shit.
1656 2012-02-15 23:35:37 <BlueMatt> ouch
1657 2012-02-15 23:36:19 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: you have a knack for not elaborating...
1658 2012-02-15 23:36:31 <Diablo-D3> okay lets try it this way
1659 2012-02-15 23:36:39 <Diablo-D3> go ahead and add cluster and central control to cgminer.
1660 2012-02-15 23:37:14 <BlueMatt> since when does DM have cluster support?
1661 2012-02-15 23:37:38 <Diablo-D3> it will soon.
1662 2012-02-15 23:38:14 <sipa> following your logic, DM is a pile of shit too then, until you add cluster support?
1663 2012-02-15 23:38:36 <Diablo-D3> DM can actually have such things added easily
1664 2012-02-15 23:38:40 <Diablo-D3> cgminer, who the fuck knows
1665 2012-02-15 23:38:45 <Diablo-D3> where would you even begin with cgminer
1666 2012-02-15 23:39:12 <sipa> just what i thought; it's a pile of shit because you don't understand it
1667 2012-02-15 23:39:27 <Diablo-D3> oh, thats the thing
1668 2012-02-15 23:39:30 <Diablo-D3> I do understand it
1669 2012-02-15 23:39:36 <Diablo-D3> I understand that it was a mistake.
1670 2012-02-15 23:39:57 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if I could just rewrite DiabloMiner in C and force con to work on it
1671 2012-02-15 23:40:06 <sipa> good luck
1672 2012-02-15 23:40:10 shlkvxaci has joined
1673 2012-02-15 23:40:19 <Diablo-D3> I dont know why he just doesnt work on DM
1674 2012-02-15 23:40:30 smickles is now known as smickles|idle
1675 2012-02-15 23:40:34 smickles is now known as idle!~michael@cpe-071-070-169-083.nc.res.rr.com|smickles
1676 2012-02-15 23:40:34 <BlueMatt> because he prefers c over java?
1677 2012-02-15 23:40:35 schilly is now known as hsy
1678 2012-02-15 23:40:37 <sipa> same reason you don't work on cg
1679 2012-02-15 23:41:05 <sipa> NIH
1680 2012-02-15 23:41:44 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1681 2012-02-15 23:43:49 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1682 2012-02-15 23:44:11 stephen_ has joined
1683 2012-02-15 23:45:04 <luke-jr> sipa: to be fair, conman didn't create cg
1684 2012-02-15 23:45:19 <luke-jr> jgarzik did originally, as cpuminer
1685 2012-02-15 23:45:24 <luke-jr> so clearly not NIH
1686 2012-02-15 23:45:26 <sipa> right, true
1687 2012-02-15 23:45:26 iocor has joined
1688 2012-02-15 23:48:36 <luke-jr> also, fwiw, cgminer really does have pretty ugly code
1689 2012-02-15 23:48:47 <luke-jr> sprintf all over, lots of stuff hard-coded…
1690 2012-02-15 23:49:10 <luke-jr> had to refactor a bit to add BFL suppor
1691 2012-02-15 23:52:39 <sipa> BlueMatt: bitcoin-qt.exe differs
1692 2012-02-15 23:53:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you sneaking in a wallet stealer? :o :p
1693 2012-02-15 23:54:17 <sipa> sigs pushed
1694 2012-02-15 23:54:28 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1695 2012-02-15 23:55:02 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: I'm tired of waiting for it, and I hadn't realised it was as dramatic an improvement on 6970 as that other fellow reported last night.
1696 2012-02-15 23:55:37 <luke-jr> sipa: some time when people aren't expecting it, someone should push a commit to master with a comment offering 1 BTC to the first 3 people to notice it <.<
1697 2012-02-15 23:55:37 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: It doesn't hurt to attempt it. Anyway, I'll leave you guys to it; if I do make any headway I'll feed patches to you and you can do whatever you want with them.
1698 2012-02-15 23:55:43 <luke-jr> sipa: ideally obscured in some way
1699 2012-02-15 23:56:50 <sipa> luke-jr: the unit tests for key.h contain some example private keys
1700 2012-02-15 23:56:53 <midnightmagic> BlueMatt: There's a copy of the kernel in there, that doesn't mean it works.
1701 2012-02-15 23:57:05 <sipa> luke-jr: i wonder if anyone tried their addresses ;)
1702 2012-02-15 23:57:41 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: ahh
1703 2012-02-15 23:57:48 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: damn, you caught me
1704 2012-02-15 23:57:56 <BlueMatt> sipa: can you bindiff the files and see if its obv?
1705 2012-02-15 23:58:05 <BlueMatt> (or upload yours so I can)
1706 2012-02-15 23:59:07 agricocb has joined
1707 2012-02-15 23:59:16 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: I was tired of working on the damned kernel
1708 2012-02-15 23:59:25 <Diablo-D3> its a dramatic improvement for a lot of 2.6 users
1709 2012-02-15 23:59:46 <Diablo-D3> its not an improvement for 2.1 users
1710 2012-02-15 23:59:53 <Diablo-D3> but there isnt many of those left
1711 2012-02-15 23:59:56 <luke-jr> sipa: I didn't mean as an easter egg, so much as a reward for proving the code is audited to some extent