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5 2012-02-18 00:10:42 <sipa> when will the alert be sent?
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16 2012-02-18 00:17:15 <theymos> Gavin said today, but maybe tomorrow if he's not around anymore today.
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24 2012-02-18 00:28:39 <Joric> http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/02/cloudera-and-apache/all/1 'the percentage of projects using the GPL dropped from 70 percent in June 2008 to about 57 percent today, while the Apache and the MIT  another permissive license  have risen to 5 and 11 percent respectively'
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26 2012-02-18 00:29:59 <splatster> A question for everyone: What's your favorite text editor? (I'm on OS X)
27 2012-02-18 00:30:18 <splatster> (text editor for programming and web design)
28 2012-02-18 00:30:22 <sipa> mcedit
29 2012-02-18 00:30:33 <theymos> I use Vim for writing code and Notepad2 (Windows) for other stuff.
30 2012-02-18 00:30:48 <Diablo-D3> vim
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32 2012-02-18 00:31:03 <Diablo-D3> vims even better when you throw in my epic config of epicness
33 2012-02-18 00:31:49 <theymos> The only thing I don't like about Vim is that the copying/pasting doesn't interface with Windows very well.
34 2012-02-18 00:32:29 <splatster> Vim is a pain with copy paste on OS X
35 2012-02-18 00:33:36 <Joric> splatster, /Applications/TextEdit.app/Contents/MacOS/TextEdit
36 2012-02-18 00:33:52 <theymos> I used to use Notepad++ for coding, but constantly switching from keyboard to mouse was hurting my hand.
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40 2012-02-18 00:37:42 <gmaxwell> Joric: cade mets is one of the most unethical journalists I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with.
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42 2012-02-18 00:38:55 <Joric> gmaxwell, he's the editor of wired now
43 2012-02-18 00:39:21 <nanotube> gmaxwell: what did he do?
44 2012-02-18 00:39:34 <nanotube> Joric: goes to show you, you don't get to positions of power by being ethical. :P
45 2012-02-18 00:39:42 <gmaxwell> Joric: no he isn't, "wired enterprise" one of their blog sections
46 2012-02-18 00:39:53 <Joric> ah sorry
47 2012-02-18 00:40:11 <nanotube> aw, there goes my snarky comment, foundation pulled right from under it.
48 2012-02-18 00:40:15 <nanotube> damn you gmaxwell :)
49 2012-02-18 00:40:20 <gmaxwell> heh
50 2012-02-18 00:47:00 <Joric> thought he wrote that wired article about that site that sells those things for bitcoins but no it was Adrian Chen
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77 2012-02-18 01:14:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: btw, did you know the genesis block's output is unspendable?
78 2012-02-18 01:15:00 <gmaxwell> never inserts it in the intext.
79 2012-02-18 01:15:02 <gmaxwell> index.
80 2012-02-18 01:15:04 <sipa> indeed
81 2012-02-18 01:15:05 <gmaxwell> We could fix thatâ
82 2012-02-18 01:15:23 <sipa> technically, that would give satoshi the ability to hardfork the network :D
83 2012-02-18 01:15:27 <gmaxwell> e.g. insert it but only at some high far future height. :)
84 2012-02-18 01:15:58 <sipa> i wonder if it's an oversight or intentional
85 2012-02-18 01:16:10 <gmaxwell> yes, if we did it nowish. but if it were done later... perhaps we should just insert an explicit bit of code to prevent it.
86 2012-02-18 01:16:23 <gmaxwell> so that it's more likely other implementors will reproduce the behavior.
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122 2012-02-18 02:35:31 <etotheipi_> sipa, do you have the link to the deterministic wallet spec you made?
123 2012-02-18 02:35:36 <etotheipi_> I forgot to bookmark it
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196 2012-02-18 04:48:35 <etotheipi_> has anyone ever successfully used a non-standard hashcode on the main network or test network?
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235 2012-02-18 06:45:49 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 862 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/862>
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277 2012-02-18 09:45:35 <ThomasV> is the DIANNA guy online?
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307 2012-02-18 11:27:27 <sipa> etotheipi_: https://gist.github.com/1799467
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328 2012-02-18 12:50:21 <sje> wumpus?
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332 2012-02-18 13:06:01 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 863 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/863>
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346 2012-02-18 13:42:18 <denisx> is blockexplorer down?
347 2012-02-18 13:42:38 <Graet> yes
348 2012-02-18 13:42:44 <Graet> or as good as :)
349 2012-02-18 13:43:10 <denisx> but it will come back?
350 2012-02-18 13:43:40 TD has joined
351 2012-02-18 13:43:59 <Graet> i believe so
352 2012-02-18 13:44:10 <Graet> http://www.blockchain.info/q is useful in the eman time :)
353 2012-02-18 13:44:16 <Graet> mean*
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366 2012-02-18 14:32:48 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 864 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/864>
367 2012-02-18 14:40:45 vigilyn has joined
368 2012-02-18 14:44:27 <twmz> anyone having problems with the latest git bitcoind and p2pool? I am still running the latest released version and want to check before I upgrade
369 2012-02-18 14:45:29 <sipa> twmz: i am not a p2pool user, but if anything, things should have remained the same or improved
370 2012-02-18 14:45:58 <twmz> ah, thanks and I just realized I asked in the wrong channel :)
371 2012-02-18 14:46:28 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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373 2012-02-18 14:48:21 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 865 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/865>
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378 2012-02-18 14:56:02 <makomk> sipa: I actually ran into that on Bitcoin when creating a transaction that attempted to spend from the genesis block. Had to use the block after instead.
379 2012-02-18 14:58:43 <sipa> uhm... are you satoshi?
380 2012-02-18 14:59:26 <Graet> lol
381 2012-02-18 15:00:12 has joined
382 2012-02-18 15:01:16 <JFK911> no.. must be realsolid
383 2012-02-18 15:01:39 Internet13 has joined
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385 2012-02-18 15:04:31 <luke-jr> sipa: I presume he means with CLC
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390 2012-02-18 15:09:37 <sipa> luke-jr: ah, right
391 2012-02-18 15:09:41 <tcatm_> gmaxwell: ping
392 2012-02-18 15:09:53 <sipa> there is an actual 0.3.0 node on the network, it seems
393 2012-02-18 15:10:17 btc_novice has joined
394 2012-02-18 15:11:38 <luke-jr> O.o
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423 2012-02-18 16:21:54 <makomk> luke-jr: nope, was on Bitcoin testnet. The node-crashing bug I found a while ago involved attempting to spend an invalid output on a valid transaction, and the genesis block coinbase looked like a good choice.
424 2012-02-18 16:22:27 <makomk> Actually, I think it was on a mainnet node I controlled even.
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432 2012-02-18 16:57:45 <ThomasV> luke-jr: is there a way to know if my client is connected to your pool?
433 2012-02-18 16:59:38 <luke-jr> ThomasV: is it hosted by Hetzner?
434 2012-02-18 17:00:04 <ThomasV> luke-jr: do you still accept non-standard tx?
435 2012-02-18 17:00:29 <ThomasV> why Hetzner?
436 2012-02-18 17:01:31 <ThomasV> no, it's hosted by cinfu
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441 2012-02-18 17:07:26 <luke-jr> ThomasV: I do.
442 2012-02-18 17:07:41 <luke-jr> ThomasV: my pool is null routed, so it can only peer with other Hetzner nodes right now
443 2012-02-18 17:08:11 * luke-jr ponders how to get a non-std txn to it
444 2012-02-18 17:08:24 <ThomasV> luke-jr: I could pastebin it..
445 2012-02-18 17:08:41 <sipa> RFC 1149 could be used
446 2012-02-18 17:09:27 <ThomasV> lol
447 2012-02-18 17:15:00 underscor has joined
448 2012-02-18 17:16:43 <luke-jr> ThomasV: how would I get it into bitcoind? ;)
449 2012-02-18 17:17:05 <ThomasV> there's the importtx patch
450 2012-02-18 17:17:25 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
451 2012-02-18 17:17:57 <ThomasV> luke-jr: but it's not very important, we can as well forget it
452 2012-02-18 17:18:12 <ThomasV> I was just experimenting
453 2012-02-18 17:18:35 edcba has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
454 2012-02-18 17:21:17 <ThomasV> luke-jr: I guess your connectivity means that Hetzner could succeed in a double-spend attack on you :)
455 2012-02-18 17:23:30 edcba has joined
456 2012-02-18 17:24:22 <Graet> or deepbit - they host there too
457 2012-02-18 17:25:47 <Graet> actually our eu node is too lol
458 2012-02-18 17:26:06 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: ... Surprise: the party that controls your network can replace your peers no matter who you think you're talking to.
459 2012-02-18 17:26:09 <Graet> i think i might move out seems jucy ddos target
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476 2012-02-18 17:43:47 <coventry> Is anyone around who could lift this out of the newbie jail for me? Also, I've submitted this to HN and /r/bitcoin as well. Is there anywhere else I might reach interested people? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64421.0 (It's a design document for a BTC-like cryptocurrency which includes arbitrary computation in the proof of work.)
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565 2012-02-18 18:21:47 <luke-jr> must the height really be 24-bit? :/
566 2012-02-18 18:22:51 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: aaronscientiae opened issue 866 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/866>
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572 2012-02-18 18:41:25 * pusle thinks luke wants 27.3bits ^^
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576 2012-02-18 18:52:48 * luke-jr would think 32 bits would make sense
577 2012-02-18 18:52:52 <luke-jr> or varint
578 2012-02-18 18:53:05 <luke-jr> otoh, varint would make more work for me <.<
579 2012-02-18 18:56:54 RedEmerald has joined
580 2012-02-18 18:57:36 <copumpkin> luke-jr: I think that's everyone's goal :)
581 2012-02-18 18:57:39 <copumpkin> (to make more work for you!)
582 2012-02-18 18:57:56 <copumpkin> so you should tell people that a plain 32-bit int would be the most work for you
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662 2012-02-18 22:24:26 <diana555> hey, anyone know the details of the change to version/verack messages coming on the 20th?
663 2012-02-18 22:27:17 <gmaxwell> diana555: Yes, of course.
664 2012-02-18 22:27:26 <gmaxwell> diana555: What are you interested in knowing?
665 2012-02-18 22:28:35 <diana555> How is this change being implemented? Is there a new version of the client coming out that will generate these new types of messages?
666 2012-02-18 22:28:47 <diana555> Are the old clients capable of parsing them?
667 2012-02-18 22:28:52 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
668 2012-02-18 22:28:58 <sipa> diana555: All versions of the client since 0.2.10 have implemented the rule that the protocol is changing on Feb 20 2012.
669 2012-02-18 22:29:09 <gmaxwell> diana555: The change was implemented several years ago. All software 0.2.10 and later have the code for this.
670 2012-02-18 22:29:17 <gmaxwell> ah, sipa beat me to it.
671 2012-02-18 22:29:35 <diana555> oh, so this is like a flag day - everyone just starts sending the new message format regardless of what client version they have?
672 2012-02-18 22:29:44 <gmaxwell> diana555: can you point me to where you heard about this that made you think a software update was required?
673 2012-02-18 22:29:56 <sipa> Exactly - we only expect problems for people whose clock is off.
674 2012-02-18 22:30:42 <diana555> well, there's nothing about a software update. Just a mention of the date here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Message_structure
675 2012-02-18 22:31:06 <gmaxwell> Ah okay.
676 2012-02-18 22:31:16 <kinlo> when is the protocol going to change btw, I assume the message on the test network was just a test with an incorrect date?
677 2012-02-18 22:31:36 <sipa> kinlo: Februari 20, 2012, UTC 0:00
678 2012-02-18 22:31:42 <kinlo> oic
679 2012-02-18 22:32:06 <kinlo> so you're going to announce it one day before?
680 2012-02-18 22:32:19 <sipa> Not sure when Gavin intends to send the alert.
681 2012-02-18 22:32:20 <kinlo> is the new client already available?
682 2012-02-18 22:32:25 <sipa> What new client?
683 2012-02-18 22:33:20 <phantomcircuit> bleh
684 2012-02-18 22:33:26 <phantomcircuit> the checksums are useless
685 2012-02-18 22:33:32 <phantomcircuit> tcp already has checksums
686 2012-02-18 22:33:42 <diana555> how are the checksums computed for verack messages?
687 2012-02-18 22:34:08 <sipa> The same way they are for every other message.
688 2012-02-18 22:34:11 <diana555> since there's no payload
689 2012-02-18 22:35:16 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well, arguably it doesn't matter for these particular messagesâ but the tcp checkums are pretty darn useless.
690 2012-02-18 22:35:51 <sipa> diana555: So it's just checksum of the empty string.
691 2012-02-18 22:36:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: first, because it's just ones compliment addition, for typical packet sizes you can't even cover the whole checksum space, so you get 10 bits of protection at best. They are also completely blind to make common burst error patterns. There are also many 'smart' devices out there that bust open tcp streams and put correct checksums back on them... so tcp checksum isn't really end to end on a good hunk of the internet.
692 2012-02-18 22:37:09 <gmaxwell> s/to make/to many/
693 2012-02-18 22:37:40 <diana555> sipa: ok, thanks a lot
694 2012-02-18 22:37:48 <gmaxwell> All this matters for stuff the gets relayed, e.g. transactions.. version, meh. Not so much.
695 2012-02-18 22:38:06 <gmaxwell> though you could replace the hash function with HMAC and have authenticated peers pretty easily.
696 2012-02-18 22:38:14 <sipa> For version and verack it hardly matters, but once feb20 is passed, the client code can be simplified.
697 2012-02-18 22:39:13 <diana555> right
698 2012-02-18 22:45:26 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: TCP checksums are ignored
699 2012-02-18 22:46:06 <luke-jr> sipa: yeah, I wrote some code that doesn't work until Feb20 just cuz the special casing is a pain
700 2012-02-18 22:46:18 <luke-jr> too bad we might end up with new special casing soon :/
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720 2012-02-18 23:28:40 <luke-jr> is block height (in coinbase) 0-based or 1-based?
721 2012-02-18 23:30:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, eh it still doesn't matter the only thing that needs an explicit checksum is transactions
722 2012-02-18 23:31:18 <phantomcircuit> and the worst thing that happens if those are wrong is that single peer rejects the tx (ie doesn't forward it)
723 2012-02-18 23:31:27 <phantomcircuit> so it isn't really a big deal either way
724 2012-02-18 23:34:01 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: and bans the user
725 2012-02-18 23:34:40 <phantomcircuit> yeah but with realistic error rates that is probably not much of a concern
726 2012-02-18 23:35:16 <phantomcircuit> especially since more error prone media like 802.11 have much more competent error correction
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728 2012-02-18 23:38:34 <sipa> luke-jr: genesis block is encoded as 1, judging from gavin's code
729 2012-02-18 23:39:07 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: you realize there is a real-world practical exploit that relys on memory corrupting the domain name during DNS lookup?
730 2012-02-18 23:39:17 <luke-jr> sipa: thanks
731 2012-02-18 23:39:42 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: ie, memory corruption occurs often enough that it can be relied on for exploits
732 2012-02-18 23:43:12 <theymos> sipa: Why do it like that? "Block numbers" start at 0 in Bitcoin.
733 2012-02-18 23:44:51 <luke-jr> theymos: says who?
734 2012-02-18 23:45:05 <luke-jr> theymos: bitcoind uses both 0 and 1 various places
735 2012-02-18 23:47:30 <theymos> When getblocknumber and getblockcount were separate, getblocknumber was defined to return the greatest block number in the chain (the greatest nHeight, I believe). (This is confusingly now the behavior of getblockcount.)
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737 2012-02-18 23:48:43 <theymos> So if getblocknumber returns the greatest nHeight, then a block's number is its height.
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