1 2012-02-21 00:00:49 <gruez> BlueMatt: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x0114adca in read_uleb128(unsigned char const*, unsigned int*) ()
   2 2012-02-21 00:01:12 <gruez> http://pastie.org/private/gp3oq9urgvdxetjfkmw8w
   3 2012-02-21 00:01:32 <BlueMatt> gruez: hmm, ok, looks like a boost problem...
   4 2012-02-21 00:01:40 <BlueMatt> gruez: let me google a bit...
   5 2012-02-21 00:02:10 <gruez> it runs fine without debugger
   6 2012-02-21 00:02:28 <BlueMatt> wait, it doesnt crash when run out of gdb, but normal builds do?
   7 2012-02-21 00:04:10 <gruez> BlueMatt: i meant that if i run it without gdb, it doesn't crash on startup
   8 2012-02-21 00:04:24 <gruez> I attached VS to it, and issued some RPC commands
   9 2012-02-21 00:04:28 <gruez> after a few, it crashed again
  10 2012-02-21 00:04:37 <gruez> and VS is still giving me "'bitcoin-qt.exe' (Win32): Loaded 'C:\Users\root\Desktop\bitcoin\bitcoin-qt.exe'. Module was built without symbols."
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  13 2012-02-21 00:07:00 <BlueMatt> gruez: ok, wtf...
  14 2012-02-21 00:07:21 <sipa> BitcoilURL, what it that?
  15 2012-02-21 00:07:33 <BlueMatt> sipa: the boost interprocess thing for url handling
  16 2012-02-21 00:07:40 word_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
  17 2012-02-21 00:07:51 <BlueMatt> (since win/linux spawn new processes when urls are open, and we dont want to open a new copy of bitcoin)
  18 2012-02-21 00:07:59 <sipa> ok
  19 2012-02-21 00:08:06 <BlueMatt> gruez: are you set up to build bitcoin in vs?
  20 2012-02-21 00:08:13 <gruez> BlueMatt: no
  21 2012-02-21 00:08:32 <gruez> it's missing same headers
  22 2012-02-21 00:08:34 <BlueMatt> hmm...
  23 2012-02-21 00:09:23 <gruez> mainly
  24 2012-02-21 00:09:33 <gruez> #include <inttypes.h>
  25 2012-02-21 00:09:36 <gruez> #include <unistd.h>
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  27 2012-02-21 00:09:44 <BlueMatt> you can get those from mingw
  28 2012-02-21 00:10:40 <gruez> BlueMatt: tried
  29 2012-02-21 00:10:47 <gruez> but those depend on other headres
  30 2012-02-21 00:10:49 <gruez> *headers
  31 2012-02-21 00:11:11 <sipa> not sure whether vc building is viable now
  32 2012-02-21 00:11:11 <BlueMatt> are those not in mingw as well?
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  35 2012-02-21 00:13:12 <jine> bitcoin-qt bug? http://ladda-upp.se/files/2012/b5164.png
  36 2012-02-21 00:13:23 <jine> Got that just moments ago... failing sprintf?
  37 2012-02-21 00:13:31 <BlueMatt> must be
  38 2012-02-21 00:13:39 <gruez> BlueMatt: If i try to add migw's include directory to VS, i get a ton of "IntelliSense: duplicate parameter name" errors
  39 2012-02-21 00:13:55 <BlueMatt> oh...
  40 2012-02-21 00:14:00 <BlueMatt> well I dont know...
  41 2012-02-21 00:14:16 <jine> Just thought i should report it
  42 2012-02-21 00:14:24 <jine> Someone can post it to github or whatever
  43 2012-02-21 00:14:27 <BlueMatt> jine: I think there is already a bug for that...
  44 2012-02-21 00:14:31 <BlueMatt> jine: but yea, needs fixed
  45 2012-02-21 00:14:40 <jine> 0.5.2 in either way... just newly downloaded etc :)
  46 2012-02-21 00:14:49 <jine> Gonna grap a new screenshot of -qt for wikipedia just now
  47 2012-02-21 00:14:50 <sipa> jine: it's already reported
  48 2012-02-21 00:14:55 <jine> sipa: ok, nvm then :)
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  66 2012-02-21 01:04:16 <Raccoon> Hrm.  I should know this, but apparently I don't.
  67 2012-02-21 01:04:28 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  68 2012-02-21 01:05:31 <Raccoon> Is there any sort of selective polling for transactions relating to one's own wallet addresses?
  69 2012-02-21 01:05:38 dr_nix has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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  71 2012-02-21 01:06:11 <Raccoon> or does each client receive every transaction in real time?
  72 2012-02-21 01:06:47 <gmaxwell> They're just flooded with a bit of randomization, so you recieve them in realtime.
  73 2012-02-21 01:06:51 <Raccoon> because i swear the reaction time is rather quite immediate, too immediate :)
  74 2012-02-21 01:06:56 <gmaxwell> There is no polling— would be bad for privacy.
  75 2012-02-21 01:07:04 <Raccoon> indeed
  76 2012-02-21 01:07:16 <Raccoon> hmm.
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  78 2012-02-21 01:07:40 <Raccoon> i want client features for monitoring where my coins go after sending them to someone else's address. :)
  79 2012-02-21 01:07:59 <Raccoon> or at least, how quickly they're moved
  80 2012-02-21 01:09:13 <nanotube> try blockexplorer. :P
  81 2012-02-21 01:09:19 <Raccoon> um, no.
  82 2012-02-21 01:09:45 <Raccoon> real time network map/mesh
  83 2012-02-21 01:09:56 <Raccoon> 2, 3, 4, 5 nodes out
  84 2012-02-21 01:10:27 <sipa> you're talking about TCP/IP network monitoring
  85 2012-02-21 01:10:31 <sipa> or coin monitoring?
  86 2012-02-21 01:10:34 <Raccoon> coin
  87 2012-02-21 01:11:17 <sipa> not really much of a network mesh to speak of then
  88 2012-02-21 01:11:28 <Raccoon> or it could expand nodes until 'your' coins become diluted to a certain factor
  89 2012-02-21 01:11:38 <sipa> yes
  90 2012-02-21 01:11:44 <Raccoon> eg, they'd quickly disappear when sent to mtgox
  91 2012-02-21 01:12:07 <Raccoon> or they might travel from new address to new address for quite some time
  92 2012-02-21 01:12:22 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  93 2012-02-21 01:12:38 <smickles> almost there
  94 2012-02-21 01:13:13 <smickles> hmm
  95 2012-02-21 01:13:17 <smickles> santorum
  96 2012-02-21 01:13:23 * Raccoon explodes into a frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter.
  97 2012-02-21 01:13:26 <smickles> :D
  98 2012-02-21 01:13:27 <Raccoon> -.-
  99 2012-02-21 01:13:59 <smickles> Raccoon: you please me :)
 100 2012-02-21 01:15:55 sacarlson has joined
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 102 2012-02-21 01:16:42 <Raccoon> hmm.  i think the tooltip "Unconfirmed (2 of 6 confirmations)" is a little misleading
 103 2012-02-21 01:17:02 gruez has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 104 2012-02-21 01:19:22 <smickles> sipa, gmaxwell, luke-jr, just thought i'd let ya'll know, my problem is officially solved
 105 2012-02-21 01:19:43 <Raccoon> smickles: that link solved all your problems?
 106 2012-02-21 01:20:03 <smickles> Raccoon: yes, laughter is the best medicine
 107 2012-02-21 01:28:47 <Raccoon> hmm
 108 2012-02-21 01:29:12 <gmaxwell> smickles: what solved your problem?
 109 2012-02-21 01:29:46 <smickles> reloading the blockchain gmaxwell
 110 2012-02-21 01:29:50 <Raccoon> in the script process for transfering bitcoins, would any of the cryptographic exchange permit for the sharing or release of a key that can be used elsewhere?
 111 2012-02-21 01:32:11 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 112 2012-02-21 01:35:23 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: you can create transactions whos release depends on the disclosure of a value.
 113 2012-02-21 01:36:00 <Raccoon> by withholding part of the key?
 114 2012-02-21 01:36:07 <gmaxwell> E.g. make a transaction that can only be spent by someone discloses X such that H(X)=y for some y specified in the txn.
 115 2012-02-21 01:36:39 <Raccoon> interesting
 116 2012-02-21 01:37:37 <Raccoon> but are there any unique values that would only be known to the sender and the receiver of a transaction, due to their private knowledge of their own respective private keys?
 117 2012-02-21 01:38:23 <Raccoon> or that is known by the receiver and revealed to the sender, or other similar scenario
 118 2012-02-21 01:38:23 <etotheipi_> racoon, look up diffie-hellman shared secrets
 119 2012-02-21 01:38:59 <etotheipi_> if I only have my private key and your public key, I can compute the same value as you compute with your private key and my public key
 120 2012-02-21 01:39:05 <etotheipi_> but people with only the public keys cannot compute that value
 121 2012-02-21 01:39:24 <Raccoon> oh nice
 122 2012-02-21 01:39:53 <Raccoon> that could be handy for network message exchange, perhaps
 123 2012-02-21 01:40:01 <etotheipi_> mathematically speaking, a private key is a scalar a, and public key is a*G where G is a point on an elliptic curve
 124 2012-02-21 01:40:14 <etotheipi_> so I have a, and give you a*G, you have b and give me b*G
 125 2012-02-21 01:40:33 <etotheipi_> we can both computer a*b*G... but you cannot get there with only (a*G) and (b*G)
 126 2012-02-21 01:41:11 Maged has joined
 127 2012-02-21 01:41:28 <Raccoon> nice explanation
 128 2012-02-21 01:42:32 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: its not useful for message exchange when you don't know the other parties actual public key.
 129 2012-02-21 01:42:49 <Raccoon> what about a value that could only be known to the sender, if they send a precise number of btc, that the receiver can compute well in advance
 130 2012-02-21 01:42:58 <etotheipi_> oh yeah... all parties have to know all other party's public keys, which isn't usually the case in Bitcoin
 131 2012-02-21 01:43:09 <Raccoon> ah
 132 2012-02-21 01:43:35 <etotheipi_> but it's not prohibitive either:  if we want to initiate this exchange, we just send each other public keys over email
 133 2012-02-21 01:43:56 <Raccoon> well, without leaving the bitcoin network
 134 2012-02-21 01:44:24 <Raccoon> say, if each client (optionally) queued a message exchange for N days
 135 2012-02-21 01:44:27 <etotheipi_> if an address has ever spent money on the network, you can get its public key (because it's part of the sending script)
 136 2012-02-21 01:45:07 <etotheipi_> but at some point you had to exchange addresses... why not just exchange public keys instead?
 137 2012-02-21 01:46:00 <Raccoon> address exchange could be remote as grabbing a QR-Code from some random location in absence of the owner
 138 2012-02-21 01:47:29 <Raccoon> why have two QR-Codes, one for receiving bitcoins, and one for messaging
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 150 2012-02-21 02:40:00 <Raccoon> ug.  what's wrong with Window's bitcoind.exe that this command doesn't work?
 151 2012-02-21 02:40:02 <Raccoon> bitcoind.exe -? > bitcoind.txt
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 156 2012-02-21 03:14:07 <phantomcircuit> Raccoon, try --help
 157 2012-02-21 03:14:38 <Raccoon> no dice
 158 2012-02-21 03:14:52 <Raccoon> still spits out to the console instead of the file.
 159 2012-02-21 03:14:58 <Raccoon> a zero byte file IS created.
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 165 2012-02-21 03:20:16 <phantomcircuit> Raccoon, oh it's printing to stderr
 166 2012-02-21 03:20:32 <phantomcircuit> Raccoon, you need to redirect that... no idea how to do that in windows shell
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 169 2012-02-21 03:21:01 <Raccoon> could that be considered a bug?
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 173 2012-02-21 03:26:30 <phantomcircuit> Raccoon, no it's fairly standard to write help to stderr
 174 2012-02-21 03:26:47 <Raccoon> first time i've seen it.
 175 2012-02-21 03:26:47 <phantomcircuit> although maybe the behavior should be changed on windows
 176 2012-02-21 03:26:57 <Raccoon> eg, wget --help > wget.txt
 177 2012-02-21 03:29:04 <unclemantis> how can i get a record of the percentage of block solved by a particular mining pool?
 178 2012-02-21 03:30:02 word has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 179 2012-02-21 03:30:10 <unclemantis> the last block was solved by deepbit. I want to know how often deepbit solves a block compared to the others since deepbit started
 180 2012-02-21 03:36:55 <Raccoon> blocks aren't solved incrimentally
 181 2012-02-21 03:37:02 <Raccoon> they are either solved or not
 182 2012-02-21 03:37:25 <unclemantis> i want to see how many deepbit solved
 183 2012-02-21 03:37:36 <Raccoon> that i don't know
 184 2012-02-21 03:40:40 <unclemantis> :
 185 2012-02-21 03:41:59 <Raccoon> would be nice if people, especially those with huge rigs, stopped using mining pools
 186 2012-02-21 03:42:15 <Raccoon> there's really very litte point unless you like losing money
 187 2012-02-21 03:42:33 <unclemantis> true
 188 2012-02-21 03:42:59 <unclemantis> i am getting this error while trying to send bitcoin from a client String ending with '\xea' can't be PCKS7-padded
 189 2012-02-21 03:43:24 <Raccoon> only plausable use for a pool is if you're installing mining software on thousands of desktops and don't care how slow they operate
 190 2012-02-21 03:43:52 pingdrive has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 191 2012-02-21 03:43:58 <unclemantis> i am trying to send to this address 16edt3bc5D82HHnr7BtiQ1VWeYGo1dAnkx
 192 2012-02-21 03:44:11 <Raccoon> if you're just one of those slow desktops, why even bother.  can't do much with 0.0001 BTC every 3 weeks
 193 2012-02-21 03:45:28 <Raccoon> character ê
 194 2012-02-21 03:46:07 <unclemantis> what?
 195 2012-02-21 03:46:13 <Raccoon> that's \xea
 196 2012-02-21 03:46:23 <unclemantis> well i don't see that in the address
 197 2012-02-21 03:46:25 <Raccoon> no idea what that is
 198 2012-02-21 03:46:29 <Graet> Raccoon, what is your hashrate?
 199 2012-02-21 03:46:37 <Raccoon> gribble: kilobits
 200 2012-02-21 03:46:41 <Raccoon> er Graet
 201 2012-02-21 03:46:49 <Graet> k..
 202 2012-02-21 03:46:55 <Raccoon> er kilohash
 203 2012-02-21 03:46:59 <Graet> yer
 204 2012-02-21 03:47:31 <Graet> what proof do you have that mining on pools "loses" miners money?
 205 2012-02-21 03:47:49 <Raccoon> Graet: um. simple and obvious economics
 206 2012-02-21 03:47:52 <imsaguy> 'pool fees'
 207 2012-02-21 03:48:05 <Graet> not all pools take fees...
 208 2012-02-21 03:48:05 <Raccoon> if the mining pool is earning money, you are losing it.
 209 2012-02-21 03:48:11 <Graet> lol
 210 2012-02-21 03:48:19 <Raccoon> name one
 211 2012-02-21 03:48:26 <Graet> one what?
 212 2012-02-21 03:48:29 <unclemantis> is this a VALID address? 16edt3bc5D82HHnr7BtiQ1VWeYGo1dAnkx
 213 2012-02-21 03:48:38 <Raccoon> one mining pool that doesn't collect fees
 214 2012-02-21 03:48:43 <denisx> my pool did not take any fee
 215 2012-02-21 03:48:47 <denisx> but that was before PPS
 216 2012-02-21 03:48:51 <Graet> ozcoin - the one i run....
 217 2012-02-21 03:49:09 <Raccoon> denisx: they didn't even keep transaction fees for themself?
 218 2012-02-21 03:49:09 <Graet> only did for 1st few weeks of operation, back in june
 219 2012-02-21 03:49:40 <denisx> Raccoon: No, you could mine without any fee on my pool
 220 2012-02-21 03:49:44 <Graet> when ozcoin was a prop pool we also payed out txn fees and will be again soon on dgm, it isnt as trivial to work out
 221 2012-02-21 03:50:31 <Graet> and there are other 0 fee pools paying out txn included wityh blocks, i suggest you do some more research before spreading fud, cheers :)
 222 2012-02-21 03:50:33 <denisx> Raccoon: yes, we kept the transaction fees
 223 2012-02-21 03:50:36 <Raccoon> denisx: so the operator has zero incentive to maintain the pool/
 224 2012-02-21 03:50:49 <denisx> but we also paid a fee for the payouts
 225 2012-02-21 03:50:53 <Graet> depends on what you call "incentive"
 226 2012-02-21 03:51:23 bitcoiner has joined
 227 2012-02-21 03:51:25 <Graet> thinking bitcoin is awesome and wanting to do something to promote it and help it succedd?
 228 2012-02-21 03:51:36 <Raccoon> denisx: evened out?
 229 2012-02-21 03:51:50 <Raccoon> that's fine Graet
 230 2012-02-21 03:51:54 <Graet> the fact that by providing a great fee free pool miners are choosing nto donate to the service?
 231 2012-02-21 03:52:01 <Raccoon> but mining pools don't help it succeed.
 232 2012-02-21 03:52:06 <denisx> Raccoon: now with 4% donation with PPS we are more or less even
 233 2012-02-21 03:52:12 <Graet> that is your opinio yep
 234 2012-02-21 03:52:50 <Raccoon> so mining pools are really only good for clocking up the block chain
 235 2012-02-21 03:53:02 <Graet> clocking up the block chain?
 236 2012-02-21 03:53:08 <Raccoon> every block solved guarantees 10,000 new transactions
 237 2012-02-21 03:53:18 <Raccoon> as people are paid
 238 2012-02-21 03:53:26 <Graet> actually most new bitcoin miners find pools a good place to start, most have easy setup and support
 239 2012-02-21 03:53:47 <Graet> blocks will get mined if thewre are pools or not, as long as there are miners
 240 2012-02-21 03:54:16 <Raccoon> just saying those meta-transactions are a waste of my harddisk space
 241 2012-02-21 03:54:24 <Graet> um, no most pools use sendmany when they pay out and i dont think any havbe 10,000 users to pay at a time
 242 2012-02-21 03:54:29 <Raccoon> transactions to facilitate mining of transactions
 243 2012-02-21 03:54:35 <Graet> 'but nkjeep goingh , research isnt your strong point?
 244 2012-02-21 03:54:46 <Raccoon> maybe they don't, today
 245 2012-02-21 03:55:00 <Raccoon> whatever the numbers, it's still wonky.
 246 2012-02-21 03:55:02 <denisx> Raccoon: payouts get accumulated
 247 2012-02-21 03:55:26 <denisx> deepbit does not use sendtomany
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 252 2012-02-21 03:59:24 <Graet> lol Raccoon if you truly feel like that p2p pool, but please do some research BEFORE making blanket statements  about pools, i was and still am a miner, i opened the pool for miners - like many other pool ops
 253 2012-02-21 03:59:38 <Graet> going out now have nice days guys :)
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 258 2012-02-21 04:12:26 <etotheipi_> is there a name for the private key format [0x80 | 32B priv | 4B checksum]?
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 302 2012-02-21 05:31:41 <JFK911> help
 303 2012-02-21 05:31:44 <JFK911> cmp (a0,d5.l),d7
 304 2012-02-21 05:31:45 <JFK911> this is a0+d5 bytes or words?
 305 2012-02-21 05:32:10 <JFK911> i don't know if .l tells me the alignment or the width of the operation :(
 306 2012-02-21 05:32:13 * JFK911 stooopid
 307 2012-02-21 05:32:55 <JFK911> oh duh
 308 2012-02-21 05:32:56 <JFK911> cmp.b
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 319 2012-02-21 06:12:14 <pickett> is it possible to use bitcoin-qt to connect to a bitcoind on another computer?
 320 2012-02-21 06:13:07 <tcatm> If you want to use it as a frontend, no.
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 326 2012-02-21 06:30:24 <seco> pickett: but if you just want it to connect to the other bitcoin-client start it with -addnode or -connect and add local or internet-ip of the other computer!
 327 2012-02-21 06:31:59 <pickett> and the transactions of the remote client will show up in the local bitcoin-qt client?
 328 2012-02-21 06:33:45 <tcatm> Nope.
 329 2012-02-21 06:35:24 libcoin has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 330 2012-02-21 06:35:27 <seco> next new user being confused by the network icon: someone needs to make the last row  green ..when all connections are reached :P
 331 2012-02-21 06:35:40 <seco> on the bitcoin-qt client^^
 332 2012-02-21 06:36:25 Ahimoth has quit ()
 333 2012-02-21 06:37:06 <BlueMatt> all but the last icon is normal for people who havnt properly forwarded their ports
 334 2012-02-21 06:37:23 <BlueMatt> if you have forwarded port 8333 on your router to your bitcoin node, all the bars should light up after a while
 335 2012-02-21 06:37:26 <pickett> it doesn't lite up all the way if you're nehind a nat
 336 2012-02-21 06:37:33 <BlueMatt> exactly
 337 2012-02-21 06:37:38 <BlueMatt> so you need to forward port 8333
 338 2012-02-21 06:37:44 <BlueMatt> (enable upnp, do it manually, etc)
 339 2012-02-21 06:40:56 <seco> never said there is no deeper logic behind it; just a bit criticism from "default user view": being operator for many years i would say there are very view people not behind a NAT nowadays on the main countries where bitcoin is widespread
 340 2012-02-21 06:42:05 <BlueMatt> so they should enable upnp...
 341 2012-02-21 06:42:14 <BlueMatt> (if you mean isp-level nat, they should get ipv6)
 342 2012-02-21 06:47:40 <seco> i mean customers: in my opinion most are behin nat and firewalled routers nowadays...they simply just dont know
 343 2012-02-21 06:47:46 <seco> behind*
 344 2012-02-21 06:48:52 <seco> from inuitive point of view i would make all rows green when bitcoin-qt managed to get connected to the nodes he is deemed to
 345 2012-02-21 06:51:11 <BlueMatt> Many torrent clients also put up a red flag if they dont have ports forwarded properly
 346 2012-02-21 06:51:18 <BlueMatt> the lack of the last row indicates that there is a problem
 347 2012-02-21 06:51:35 <BlueMatt> the popup probably should ask users to forward their ports, but...
 348 2012-02-21 06:52:00 <BlueMatt> also, since upnp is enabled by default on bitcoin-qt and most consumer-level routers, it not working is a problem
 349 2012-02-21 06:52:06 toffoo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 350 2012-02-21 06:53:28 * seco is not shure if the target audience of Bitcoin is the same then torrent
 351 2012-02-21 06:53:47 <seco> but i agree on your argumentation as well...its not me you have to convince :)
 352 2012-02-21 06:54:12 <CRichard> has anyone ever suggested distributing parts of the block chain automatically by bittorrent protocol?
 353 2012-02-21 06:54:17 <CRichard> guessing someone has?
 354 2012-02-21 06:54:42 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 355 2012-02-21 06:54:44 <BlueMatt> I used to always get requests to distribute torrents when I was releasing block chain snapshots
 356 2012-02-21 06:54:50 <BlueMatt> but it really isnt worth it...
 357 2012-02-21 06:55:21 <CRichard> no, I'm suggesting actually building bittorrent protocol into the reference client
 358 2012-02-21 06:55:25 <BlueMatt> I mean you could do a new torrent, say, once a month, but then its always out of date
 359 2012-02-21 06:55:29 <BlueMatt> ...
 360 2012-02-21 06:55:38 <CRichard> so the clients can easily pick up the large chain from the network without overloading the actual transaction exchange network
 361 2012-02-21 06:55:41 <BlueMatt> how is that any different from the current protocol...
 362 2012-02-21 06:55:54 <BlueMatt> we go from a p2p network distributing blocks to...
 363 2012-02-21 06:55:59 <BlueMatt> a p2p network distributing blocks...
 364 2012-02-21 06:56:07 <CRichard> bittorrent is more specialized for distributing large amounts of data?
 365 2012-02-21 06:56:20 <BlueMatt> no its not
 366 2012-02-21 06:56:28 <BlueMatt> also, we have very small amounts of data
 367 2012-02-21 06:56:31 <CRichard> idk specifics but I can download a 4 gb iso in a very short amount of time, but the chain takes days on a fresh install
 368 2012-02-21 06:56:41 <seco> CRichard: distribution is not the bottleneck why it takes so long to get sync with the network after initial start; i guess if someone keeps http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/blockchain/ up2date from year to year is enough
 369 2012-02-21 06:56:44 <CRichard> chain is now a gb
 370 2012-02-21 06:56:52 <BlueMatt> the chain takes long to download not because its slow, but because it has to check each block as it comes in
 371 2012-02-21 06:57:01 <CRichard> ah hm
 372 2012-02-21 06:57:16 <BlueMatt> even if we switched to another protocol, it would still be just as slow because we have to check the chain
 373 2012-02-21 06:57:22 splatster has joined
 374 2012-02-21 06:57:29 <tcatm> Are we still downloading from a single peer?
 375 2012-02-21 06:57:29 <BlueMatt> unless you want to go to a centralized system where everyone trusts the chain one node gives them...
 376 2012-02-21 06:57:31 <CRichard> ok, I see
 377 2012-02-21 06:57:38 <BlueMatt> tcatm: yea, usually, so?
 378 2012-02-21 06:57:46 <seco> the bottleneck is the local validation of ALL transactions of the current block you downloaded from the bitcoinnetwork: just start with 0 on a ramdrive, and youre donw after 2hours from what i hear :D
 379 2012-02-21 06:57:57 <tcatm> Maybe that peer has a slow uplink...
 380 2012-02-21 06:58:07 <BlueMatt> tcatm: it happens, but that is really rare
 381 2012-02-21 06:58:31 <BlueMatt> tcatm: blocks are so small to begin with...
 382 2012-02-21 06:58:43 <CRichard> someone had a suggestion that milestones be encoded regularly into the chain at interval, so that new clients didnt have to recheck the whole chain
 383 2012-02-21 06:58:48 <tcatm> Sure, but it's still a huge chain.
 384 2012-02-21 06:58:53 <BlueMatt> CRichard: already done
 385 2012-02-21 06:58:57 <CRichard> really?
 386 2012-02-21 06:59:04 <CRichard> is that being put into the reference client? or already in?
 387 2012-02-21 06:59:28 <BlueMatt> CRichard: yea, bitcoin has been skipping checking the signatures in txes up to newest checkpoint for a long time now
 388 2012-02-21 06:59:31 <BlueMatt> since like 0.4 or smth
 389 2012-02-21 06:59:51 <tcatm> So 50ms longer downloadtime per block will be significant
 390 2012-02-21 06:59:55 <CRichard> so then why does it still take so long to get the chain on a fresh install?
 391 2012-02-21 07:00:26 <BlueMatt> tcatm: meh, we still spend 95% of our time checking blocks, so even if we cut down the chain download times, we only go up a tiny percent
 392 2012-02-21 07:00:40 <BlueMatt> (unless your download peer is on ie 24k modem or smth...)
 393 2012-02-21 07:00:52 <BlueMatt> CRichard: because there are other things that are required when checking the chain that we cant skip
 394 2012-02-21 07:01:12 <BlueMatt> they can be sped up, but not really skipped
 395 2012-02-21 07:01:50 <tcatm> Where did you get that 95% number from?
 396 2012-02-21 07:02:01 <seco> CRichard: if you dont check the chain for your own, you never know how many coins are linked to your bitcoins currently: it might be possible someone send you bitcoins, but your wallet does not know it if client does not scan for transactions related to your adresses
 397 2012-02-21 07:02:18 <seco> ehh linked to your bitcoin-addreses *hiding*
 398 2012-02-21 07:02:19 <BlueMatt> tcatm: 89% of statistics are pulled out of my ass
 399 2012-02-21 07:02:26 <CRichard> ah right, I see
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 402 2012-02-21 07:02:46 <CRichard> is this scanning for your own coins/addresses what now takes so much time?
 403 2012-02-21 07:03:01 <BlueMatt> tcatm: but that seems realistic based on my watching debug.log fly by when downloading from the network...
 404 2012-02-21 07:03:07 <BlueMatt> CRichard: nope
 405 2012-02-21 07:03:09 <tcatm> Last time I checked a recent build could sync pretty fast on a loopback device.
 406 2012-02-21 07:03:37 <CRichard> so what then does?
 407 2012-02-21 07:03:46 <BlueMatt> CRichard: though that does take some time, its not anything huge (maybe like 5-10% on a medium-sized wallet)
 408 2012-02-21 07:03:54 <BlueMatt> tcatm: and that one Ive actually benchmarked
 409 2012-02-21 07:04:10 <CRichard> right, but a new installation has no addresses in the wallet, so this cannot take any time for such a case
 410 2012-02-21 07:04:30 <BlueMatt> CRichard: it still has ~101 addresses it has to check against, so it still takes some time
 411 2012-02-21 07:04:38 <BlueMatt> CRichard: keeping the ledger of which transactions have been spent is what takes the most time
 412 2012-02-21 07:05:10 <BlueMatt> for each tx, bitcoin has to look up the txouts that the given tx spends and mark them spent so someone cant come along later and try to double spend
 413 2012-02-21 07:05:29 <BlueMatt> and that is what kills performance (because it fsyncs after each block)
 414 2012-02-21 07:05:34 <CRichard> oh right, so that the client can reject bad txs
 415 2012-02-21 07:05:39 <CRichard> gotya
 416 2012-02-21 07:06:01 <CRichard> so is it possible to have a checkpoint of unspent txs?
 417 2012-02-21 07:06:14 <BlueMatt> CRichard: it could be done, yes
 418 2012-02-21 07:06:27 <CRichard> would that significantly improve load times for new entrants?
 419 2012-02-21 07:06:56 <BlueMatt> tcatm: though I think downloading from one peer is the least of our problems, I would like to fix that as a part of a laundry list of performance improvements I want to make after cblockstore is merged
 420 2012-02-21 07:07:02 finway has joined
 421 2012-02-21 07:07:02 <BlueMatt> CRichard: yep
 422 2012-02-21 07:07:14 <BlueMatt> CRichard: though you have to trust the people who release the checkpoint
 423 2012-02-21 07:07:14 <CRichard> ah cool
 424 2012-02-21 07:07:18 <finway> What's the latest block? 167754 ? about a hour ago
 425 2012-02-21 07:07:18 <seco> it would make sense to draw a checksum-line onto the fat-clients from time to time if there is consensus on a spedific blockchain, so this can be reduced to a "simply trust the past" download without recheck; but its a question of politics, isnt it not to rock on the hill of the transaction-validation which keeps "bitcoin" as system together
 426 2012-02-21 07:07:25 <finway> is mtgox down?
 427 2012-02-21 07:07:29 <seco> specific*
 428 2012-02-21 07:07:30 <CRichard> yeah mtgox is down
 429 2012-02-21 07:07:39 <CRichard> should be up within 30min according to someone in the other channel
 430 2012-02-21 07:07:40 <BlueMatt> finway: #mtgox
 431 2012-02-21 07:07:44 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: did you kick the extension cord again?
 432 2012-02-21 07:08:04 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: me? if I kick an extension cord my dnsseed and jenkins goes down, not mtgox...
 433 2012-02-21 07:08:20 <k9quaint> tell me more about your seed
 434 2012-02-21 07:08:35 <CRichard> BlueMatt: so is this txout checkpoint thing on the cards, or is something more important in front of the devs atm?
 435 2012-02-21 07:08:35 <BlueMatt> uh...its a dnsseed...
 436 2012-02-21 07:08:42 <BlueMatt> and it provides seeds via dns
 437 2012-02-21 07:08:44 <BlueMatt> ...
 438 2012-02-21 07:09:00 <finway> BlueMatt: what's your latest block? 167754?
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 443 2012-02-21 07:09:22 <BlueMatt> finway: I dunno, check blockchain.info
 444 2012-02-21 07:09:28 <seco> ;;bc,blocks
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 446 2012-02-21 07:09:34 <gribble> timed out
 447 2012-02-21 07:09:42 <seco> o_0
 448 2012-02-21 07:09:49 <finway> wow, gribble's down
 449 2012-02-21 07:09:50 <tcatm> finway: 167754 here
 450 2012-02-21 07:09:55 <BlueMatt> CRichard: its been suggested several times and it is assumed that at some point someone will write something to checkpoint the list of open txes....
 451 2012-02-21 07:10:09 <finway> tcatm: it's been a hour and 10 min
 452 2012-02-21 07:10:10 <BlueMatt> CRichard: but for now, its not really something that anyone has bothered actually putting time into
 453 2012-02-21 07:10:11 <denisx> 167754
 454 2012-02-21 07:10:22 <tcatm> finway: Happens from time to time...
 455 2012-02-21 07:10:31 <BlueMatt> CRichard: there are easier ways to get a ton more performance out of the current bitcoin without it
 456 2012-02-21 07:10:45 <BlueMatt> (which would help with all new block downloads, not just up to the checkpoints)
 457 2012-02-21 07:10:50 <CRichard> BlueMatt: what's the protocol for adding stuff to the reference client? do you just make a modification and post it somewhere?
 458 2012-02-21 07:11:05 <BlueMatt> CRichard: yea, github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 459 2012-02-21 07:11:28 <CRichard> would have to get added or are public pushes allowed?
 460 2012-02-21 07:11:50 <CRichard> oh theres an faq, will read thanks
 461 2012-02-21 07:12:07 word has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 462 2012-02-21 07:12:10 <BlueMatt> you have to fork, pull request, and then get devs to read the code and check
 463 2012-02-21 07:12:26 <BlueMatt> we have to be pretty careful about commiting bad code, this is financial software...
 464 2012-02-21 07:12:36 <BlueMatt> (not that it never happens, but...)
 465 2012-02-21 07:13:18 <CRichard> yeah fair point
 466 2012-02-21 07:13:27 <CRichard> does the reference client have automatic tests?
 467 2012-02-21 07:13:33 <BlueMatt> some, not enough
 468 2012-02-21 07:13:43 <finway> tcatm: umm
 469 2012-02-21 07:13:57 <CRichard> k, thanks for the info
 470 2012-02-21 07:14:25 * BlueMatt plans on addressing most of the concerns people have expressed tonight in a laundry-list of updates based on cblockstore :)
 471 2012-02-21 07:14:40 enquirer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 472 2012-02-21 07:15:23 <finway> tcatm: just checking, since mtgox is "experiencing a technical difficulty"
 473 2012-02-21 07:15:37 <denisx> 167755
 474 2012-02-21 07:15:43 <BlueMatt> better chain downloading (preventing chain-fork ddos + downloading from multiple peers + buffering blocks so that we dont wait on block downloads at all), better disk-writing by caching txspending in memory and async-disk-writes (which also allows for much more detailed tests since we can avoid writing temp dbs)
 475 2012-02-21 07:15:53 <BlueMatt> though I suppose we can test with on-disk dbs, but...meh
 476 2012-02-21 07:16:04 <BlueMatt> s/ddos/dos/
 477 2012-02-21 07:16:08 <finway> BlueMatt: i'll check what's "CBlockStore"
 478 2012-02-21 07:16:15 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/771
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 482 2012-02-21 07:18:20 <finway> OK, it's 167755 now
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 487 2012-02-21 07:24:28 <CRichard> are we worried about the block numbers?
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 489 2012-02-21 07:26:40 <finway> CRichard : no we are not.
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 492 2012-02-21 07:30:27 <CRichard> k
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 567 2012-02-21 10:28:12 <conman> jgarzik, question, may I ask your permission to change cgminer aka ex-cpuminer into GPLv3 please?
 568 2012-02-21 10:28:31 <Diablo-D3> oh yeah
 569 2012-02-21 10:28:32 <Diablo-D3> thats right
 570 2012-02-21 10:28:36 <Diablo-D3> I forgot you stole his code
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 579 2012-02-21 10:42:09 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: dooglus opened issue 879 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/879>
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 624 2012-02-21 12:09:43 <sturles> A common critisism against Bitcoin is the lack of anonymity because it is often very easy to pin a transaction to an IP address.  How about an option to delay the relaying of transactions by 250-500ms between each node?  This will increase the chance of a transaction relaying from another node before a "snooper" gets it from the sending node.
 625 2012-02-21 12:11:48 <Graet> connect=<public node> in bitcoind.conf , public node is 1st network sees it at?
 626 2012-02-21 12:11:56 <sturles> Node A is about to relay a transaction.  It's own or someone elses.  It is connected to nodes B through Z.  Instead of sending the transactions to B through Z immediatly, it first tells B (immediatly), wait 250 ms, tells C, waits 250 ms, tells D, etc.
 627 2012-02-21 12:12:59 <sturles> Graet: Yes, but then you are completely dependant of public node to relay your transaction, and you have to trust puclic node.
 628 2012-02-21 12:13:40 <sturles> If public node is an evil miner not relaying transactions with a fee, and you added a fee, the transaction will not propagate.
 629 2012-02-21 12:14:53 <gmaxwell> sturles: the system already delays and randomizes its own announcements.
 630 2012-02-21 12:15:28 <gmaxwell> sturles: bitcoin is not, however, a anonymity network.   Thats a silly criticism. Do the same people tell you not to use the web?
 631 2012-02-21 12:15:46 <gmaxwell> If you want greater privacy/anonymity with bitcoin— combine it with Tor.
 632 2012-02-21 12:16:47 <sturles> gmaxwell: OK.  I didn't know that.  I know blockchain.info pins less than half of my transactions correctly on me, but I assumed it was due to my own slow network. :-)
 633 2012-02-21 12:18:19 <sturles> Of course it is not an anonymity network, but there should be limits on what it reveals by default.
 634 2012-02-21 12:18:33 <sturles> When avoiding it is simple.
 635 2012-02-21 12:18:40 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
 636 2012-02-21 12:19:21 <Graet> sturles, luckily i have my own public nodes i  can trust :)
 637 2012-02-21 12:19:58 CRichard has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 638 2012-02-21 12:20:18 <sturles> Graet: Me too, but Joe Average User may not.
 639 2012-02-21 12:20:25 <Graet> :)
 640 2012-02-21 12:21:02 <Graet> joe average isnt so concerned about hiding his ip either ;) generally
 641 2012-02-21 12:23:29 <sturles> Unfortunately one get more and more reasons to be conserned about it.  Everything beeing logged and access to the information becoming a formality. :-(
 642 2012-02-21 12:24:18 <gmaxwell> Personally, I block blockchain.info from my nodes.
 643 2012-02-21 12:26:09 <Ferroh> gmaxwell: really?
 644 2012-02-21 12:26:23 <Ferroh> So is there no way to use pywallet on newer wallets :/
 645 2012-02-21 12:26:37 <Ferroh> How can I import a private key into a wallet that isnt pre version 3.25?
 646 2012-02-21 12:26:57 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: use the import RPC?
 647 2012-02-21 12:27:24 <Ferroh> blargh, okay I can do it that way
 648 2012-02-21 12:27:34 <Ferroh> thanks
 649 2012-02-21 12:28:10 <Ferroh> does the import RPC allow importing into an encrypted wallet? or should I use an unencrypted wallet
 650 2012-02-21 12:28:22 <Ferroh> by encrypted I of course mean, encrypted by bitcoin-qt.
 651 2012-02-21 12:29:15 <wumpus> you can import into an encrypted wallet but it will need to be unlocked first
 652 2012-02-21 12:29:24 <gmaxwell> What wumpus says.
 653 2012-02-21 12:35:01 iocor has joined
 654 2012-02-21 12:39:17 <ThomasV> <gmaxwell> Personally, I block blockchain.info from my nodes. <-- why?
 655 2012-02-21 12:40:15 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: Because they were chewing up 6 sockets here for the service of displaying my IP on a website someone might use to target me for DOS attacks.
 656 2012-02-21 12:40:51 <gmaxwell> If they'd like to pay me to allow them to monitor me, I'd consider it... but I mostly think I'm getting nothing out of the deal.
 657 2012-02-21 12:42:04 <ThomasV> hmm
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 666 2012-02-21 13:00:56 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Flowdalic opened issue 880 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/880>
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 670 2012-02-21 13:20:37 <Ferroh> ugh the import rpc rescans the blockchain at every import ffs
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 672 2012-02-21 13:26:40 <wumpus> and you can only import one private key at a time :-)
 673 2012-02-21 13:26:53 <Ferroh> gmaxwell: when you said use the import RPC, were you referring to a patch of bitcoind that is not in the official version?
 674 2012-02-21 13:27:07 <Ferroh> I dont see any import rpc method in bitcoind 0.5.2
 675 2012-02-21 13:29:12 <Ferroh> So there is basically no way to import private keys into a wallet.dat.
 676 2012-02-21 13:29:19 <Ferroh> Doesn't that seem like pretty basic functionality to you guys?
 677 2012-02-21 13:29:50 <wumpus> there's an "importprivkey" RPC call I'm looking at it right now
 678 2012-02-21 13:29:57 <wumpus> not sure when it was merged though...
 679 2012-02-21 13:30:11 <Ferroh> what version are you using
 680 2012-02-21 13:30:16 <Ferroh> later than 0.5.2?
 681 2012-02-21 13:30:19 <wumpus> git master
 682 2012-02-21 13:30:51 <Ferroh> ;;isitdown bitcoin.org
 683 2012-02-21 13:30:52 <gribble> http://bitcoin.org Is Up -> Check if your website is up or down?
 684 2012-02-21 13:31:14 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: I'm not sure where it was merged, it's in 0.6rc at least.
 685 2012-02-21 13:31:32 <Ferroh> well git master is 0.5.2 if im not mistaken
 686 2012-02-21 13:31:36 <Ferroh> so I should have it :/
 687 2012-02-21 13:31:50 <Ferroh> oh, wait
 688 2012-02-21 13:31:56 <Ferroh> no git master is 0.6
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 694 2012-02-21 13:38:47 <Ferroh> Any tips as to why bitcoin 0.6 is not building for me?
 695 2012-02-21 13:38:49 <Ferroh> Error:
 696 2012-02-21 13:38:49 <Ferroh> headers.h:39:20: fatal error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
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 698 2012-02-21 13:39:31 <gmaxwell> you need to have the libdb c++ headers installed. What distro are you building on?
 699 2012-02-21 13:39:39 <wumpus> you don't have the  libdb4.8++-dev package installed
 700 2012-02-21 13:39:57 <Ferroh> That package doesnt exist in the apt repo for ubuntu
 701 2012-02-21 13:40:15 <wumpus> hm probably it some other name there
 702 2012-02-21 13:40:19 <Ferroh> libdb4.8-dev does though
 703 2012-02-21 13:40:24 <Ferroh> and libdb4.8-dev is installed
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 705 2012-02-21 13:40:34 <wumpus> you really need the ++ one
 706 2012-02-21 13:40:48 <gmaxwell> see doc/build-unix.txt
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 708 2012-02-21 13:41:39 <Ferroh> I obviously did see that gmaxwell :P
 709 2012-02-21 13:41:47 <Ferroh> those install instructions do not work.
 710 2012-02-21 13:41:58 <Ferroh> anyway I got it working
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 712 2012-02-21 13:42:18 <Ferroh> on ubuntu you need to replace the line in the build-unix.txt file that says:
 713 2012-02-21 13:42:23 <Ferroh> sudo apt-get install libdb4.8++-dev
 714 2012-02-21 13:42:25 <Ferroh> with:
 715 2012-02-21 13:42:36 <Ferroh> sudo apt-get install libdb++-dev
 716 2012-02-21 13:42:50 <Ferroh> or you might have a bunch of confused users, for a moment at least
 717 2012-02-21 13:42:58 <wumpus> maybe they dropped version 4.8 in your release
 718 2012-02-21 13:43:06 <gmaxwell> Thanks! (although is that pulling 4.8 or .. something else??)
 719 2012-02-21 13:43:11 <wumpus> libdb++-dev probably links to 5.1
 720 2012-02-21 13:43:17 <gmaxwell> You'll need 4.8 if you want wallet files compatible with the public binaries.
 721 2012-02-21 13:43:21 <Ferroh> probably does link to 5.1
 722 2012-02-21 13:43:29 <wumpus> though I generally use 5.1 and never had trouble with it
 723 2012-02-21 13:43:34 <Ferroh> but there is no 4.8++ in the apt-cache search that i just did so
 724 2012-02-21 13:43:41 <gmaxwell> okay, if you run that bitcoin on your wallet you'll not be able to use a 4.8 based copy of bitcoin again.
 725 2012-02-21 13:43:41 <wumpus> but yeah the wallet won't be backward compatible with 4.8...
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 728 2012-02-21 13:46:45 <Ferroh> um
 729 2012-02-21 13:46:51 <Ferroh> there is no /bin folder after doing a make?
 730 2012-02-21 13:46:59 <Ferroh> make appears to have completed successfully.
 731 2012-02-21 13:47:48 <Ferroh> oh, it just dumps bitcoind in the src folder now
 732 2012-02-21 13:47:49 <Ferroh> ok
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 734 2012-02-21 13:49:47 <Ferroh> Yeah so importprivkey is in 0.6, yay
 735 2012-02-21 13:49:59 <Ferroh> now I can spend 24 hours waiting for keys to import :/
 736 2012-02-21 13:50:01 iocor has joined
 737 2012-02-21 13:50:33 <Ferroh> I wonder what sort of wallet file electrum uses
 738 2012-02-21 13:50:56 <Ferroh> electrum doesnt have a command line client though does it?
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 741 2012-02-21 13:56:02 <wumpus> I guess you could patch the importprivkey call to accept multiple keys
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 744 2012-02-21 13:58:54 <Ferroh> or just not scan the block chain
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 746 2012-02-21 13:59:24 <Ferroh> Is there a way to export private keys from the wallet?
 747 2012-02-21 13:59:28 <Ferroh> that would also work for me
 748 2012-02-21 13:59:40 <Ferroh> oh, dumpprivkey is new
 749 2012-02-21 13:59:41 <Ferroh> ok
 750 2012-02-21 13:59:44 <Ferroh> i'll do it that way then
 751 2012-02-21 13:59:53 <Ferroh> sigh, I have to rewrite a bunch of stuff now blah
 752 2012-02-21 14:00:23 <wumpus> you need to scan the block chain at least once, I suppose
 753 2012-02-21 14:00:34 <Ferroh> yes, but I want to import 10000 keys first
 754 2012-02-21 14:00:45 <Ferroh> and not scan 10000 times ideally
 755 2012-02-21 14:00:49 <wumpus> of course
 756 2012-02-21 14:01:21 <Ferroh> its ok, I will just generate the keys using the satoshi client
 757 2012-02-21 14:01:29 <Ferroh> and then dump the private keys out after
 758 2012-02-21 14:01:42 agricocb has joined
 759 2012-02-21 14:01:45 <Ferroh> i didnt want to be forced to use the satoshi client, that's all :/
 760 2012-02-21 14:02:53 <Ferroh> I guess I could just kill the wifi and move the blockchain temporarily out of the .bitcoin dir so that chain scans are fast
 761 2012-02-21 14:03:16 <Ferroh> (because the blockchain would be just a few blocks)
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 767 2012-02-21 14:18:52 <Ferroh> oh, electrum does work from the command line
 768 2012-02-21 14:25:14 <Ferroh> lol god damnit
 769 2012-02-21 14:25:20 <Ferroh> so I make a new address with bitcoind
 770 2012-02-21 14:25:23 <ThomasV> Ferroh: it worked from the CLI before it had a gui
 771 2012-02-21 14:25:29 <Ferroh> then I do dumpprivkey <address>
 772 2012-02-21 14:25:31 <Ferroh> and it says
 773 2012-02-21 14:25:36 <Ferroh> error: {"code":-4,"message":"Private key for address 16stpbfQ3BidQct2QjmAX9ZbHnEhezUv6G is not known"}
 774 2012-02-21 14:26:01 <Ferroh> ThomasV: Yes it seems that I might just want to use electrum. bitcoind is a headache so far
 775 2012-02-21 14:26:18 <ThomasV> cool :)
 776 2012-02-21 14:26:29 <Ferroh> Did you make it?
 777 2012-02-21 14:26:36 <ThomasV> yes, most of it
 778 2012-02-21 14:27:02 <Ferroh> Oh I see, it didnt "know" the private key because you have to unlock (decrypt) the wallet first.
 779 2012-02-21 14:27:13 <Ferroh> electrum is suprisingly simple
 780 2012-02-21 14:27:21 <Ferroh> wallet.py has most of the functionality
 781 2012-02-21 14:27:26 <Ferroh> and it's <900 lines
 782 2012-02-21 14:27:49 <Ferroh> (most of the client's functionality anyway)
 783 2012-02-21 14:28:04 <ThomasV> and a good chunk of wallet.py is a copy/paste from pywallet
 784 2012-02-21 14:30:44 cande has joined
 785 2012-02-21 14:39:49 <Joric> and pywallet is basically a copy/paste from wallet.py (from bitcointools)
 786 2012-02-21 14:40:22 <ThomasV> Joric: thus, a fixed point has been reached
 787 2012-02-21 14:43:55 <Joric> isn't electrum like super-centralized? they missing the whole point of bitcoin
 788 2012-02-21 14:44:29 <ThomasV> no
 789 2012-02-21 14:44:35 <Joric> multibit/bitcoinj is almost as lightweight as electrum
 790 2012-02-21 14:45:53 chrisb__ has joined
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 792 2012-02-21 14:46:46 <Joric> ThomasV, how does it work?
 793 2012-02-21 14:47:16 <ThomasV> Joric: client-server. http://ecdsa.org/electrum/
 794 2012-02-21 14:47:19 <Joric> they say it's based on a client-server protocol who's the server
 795 2012-02-21 14:47:39 <ThomasV> there are several servers, 3 at the moment
 796 2012-02-21 14:47:51 <helo> can a user run their own?
 797 2012-02-21 14:47:59 <ThomasV> helo: yes
 798 2012-02-21 14:48:25 <Joric> whoa a whole 3 servers
 799 2012-02-21 14:48:37 <ThomasV> the big difference with bccapi is that the server does not need to know its users. the server is used as if it was a block explorer
 800 2012-02-21 14:48:58 <helo> http?
 801 2012-02-21 14:49:00 <Joric> 'Never take two chronometers to sea. Always take one or three.'
 802 2012-02-21 14:49:08 <ThomasV> Joric: public servers are listening on #electrum
 803 2012-02-21 14:50:11 <ThomasV> there might be private servers too
 804 2012-02-21 14:51:23 <helo> i like the blue bitcoin logo... gold is so cheesy
 805 2012-02-21 14:53:23 <Joric> it's brass, as in casascius coins )
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 807 2012-02-21 14:55:39 <ThomasV> Joric: multibit does not store the blockchain, but it still needs to download it
 808 2012-02-21 14:56:11 <Ferroh> ThomasV: there is no help for the import command. Do you just do "electrum import <pubkey> <privkey>"?
 809 2012-02-21 14:56:34 <Ferroh> oh you use a color
 810 2012-02-21 14:56:35 <Ferroh> *colon
 811 2012-02-21 14:56:36 <ThomasV> Ferroh: <address>:<privkey>, separated by a colon
 812 2012-02-21 14:56:37 <Ferroh> ok got it
 813 2012-02-21 14:56:47 <ThomasV> same format as for the export
 814 2012-02-21 14:56:56 <Ferroh> am I safe to import 10000 keys?
 815 2012-02-21 14:57:03 <Ferroh> does it query your server every time i do so or something?
 816 2012-02-21 14:57:11 <Ferroh> if so, I can run my own server
 817 2012-02-21 14:57:15 <ThomasV> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Electrum#Export_and_import_addresses
 818 2012-02-21 14:57:30 <ThomasV> Ferroh: 10000 will be too much
 819 2012-02-21 14:57:46 <Ferroh> because it queries your server, or because electrum doesnt like a wallet that large?
 820 2012-02-21 14:57:55 <ThomasV> no, because of the queries
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 822 2012-02-21 14:58:04 <Ferroh> ok so I can just run my own server and it's fine, right?
 823 2012-02-21 14:58:26 bobke has joined
 824 2012-02-21 14:58:28 <ThomasV> I have seen some client with about 1000 key, it slowed down the server
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 827 2012-02-21 14:59:12 <ThomasV> if you do it with your own server, it might be too slow as well. things will probably improve when we use libbitcoin, but for the moment servers use bitcoind
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 829 2012-02-21 14:59:21 <Ferroh> I see
 830 2012-02-21 14:59:29 <ThomasV> bitcoind+abe
 831 2012-02-21 14:59:44 <ThomasV> that's not very efficient
 832 2012-02-21 15:00:10 <Ferroh> I guess im back to using bitcoind for now then :/
 833 2012-02-21 15:00:16 chrisb__ has joined
 834 2012-02-21 15:00:31 <ThomasV> Ferroh: why do you need so many keys?
 835 2012-02-21 15:01:09 <Ferroh> 1000 clients times 10 transactions each = 10k keys
 836 2012-02-21 15:01:15 <Ferroh> i could use less, but it would be inconvenient
 837 2012-02-21 15:01:40 <ThomasV> 1000 clients of what?
 838 2012-02-21 15:01:52 <Ferroh> of bitcoin users
 839 2012-02-21 15:02:27 <Ferroh> hmm
 840 2012-02-21 15:02:29 <ThomasV> I don(t get it. is this for a service you're providing?
 841 2012-02-21 15:02:33 <Ferroh> can i remove a key from the wallet with electrum?
 842 2012-02-21 15:02:43 <Ferroh> ThomasV: yes
 843 2012-02-21 15:02:51 <ThomasV> Ferroh: yes, with eval
 844 2012-02-21 15:03:09 <Ferroh> if I can remove a key, then I could manage the keys separately in my own db, and just add and remove them as they are often only used once
 845 2012-02-21 15:03:17 <ThomasV> electrum eval 'wallet.imported_keys.pop('address')'
 846 2012-02-21 15:03:33 <Ferroh> ok, so maybe I'll do it that way
 847 2012-02-21 15:04:15 * ThomasV expects things to break
 848 2012-02-21 15:05:01 <Ferroh> indeed
 849 2012-02-21 15:05:31 <Ferroh> um
 850 2012-02-21 15:05:36 <ThomasV> but it might be cool to try anyway
 851 2012-02-21 15:05:39 <Ferroh> electrum lets you import a keypair twice
 852 2012-02-21 15:05:49 <ThomasV> heh
 853 2012-02-21 15:05:54 <ThomasV> sounds like a bug
 854 2012-02-21 15:06:17 <ThomasV> does it double your balance?
 855 2012-02-21 15:06:34 <Ferroh> no
 856 2012-02-21 15:06:49 <ThomasV> too bad :)
 857 2012-02-21 15:06:55 <Ferroh> wait,
 858 2012-02-21 15:07:17 <Ferroh> oh the coins arent at the doubled address
 859 2012-02-21 15:07:18 <Ferroh> ok let me try.
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 861 2012-02-21 15:07:47 <Ferroh> yes, it doubles your balance ThomasV.
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 863 2012-02-21 15:08:18 <Ferroh> it does not triple your balance if you import a 3rd time though
 864 2012-02-21 15:09:46 <ThomasV> Ferroh: git pull
 865 2012-02-21 15:10:42 <ThomasV> https://gitorious.org/electrum/electrum/commit/77696dcfdacdf60bfb66bea64d6d9a45204f1289/diffs/b0b8a5ec6bcdbeca098ebd1a79e37509c8040826
 866 2012-02-21 15:11:05 <Ferroh> it still has a doubled balance
 867 2012-02-21 15:11:10 <Ferroh> oh
 868 2012-02-21 15:11:15 <Ferroh> i see you just changed import
 869 2012-02-21 15:11:16 <Ferroh> well,
 870 2012-02-21 15:11:22 <Ferroh> presumably that should work now, one sec
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 872 2012-02-21 15:11:41 <ThomasV> you'll need to remove it first from that wallet
 873 2012-02-21 15:11:45 <Ferroh> yes
 874 2012-02-21 15:11:54 <Ferroh> and yes it says "error" if you try to import a duplicate now
 875 2012-02-21 15:12:00 <Ferroh> so I guess that's fine
 876 2012-02-21 15:12:11 <Ferroh> it's a problem for anyone out there that imported a key twice already though :/
 877 2012-02-21 15:12:15 <ThomasV> thanks for the report btw
 878 2012-02-21 15:12:22 <Ferroh> np
 879 2012-02-21 15:13:06 <ThomasV> initialy I did not like the idea of importing keys
 880 2012-02-21 15:13:19 <ThomasV> it was supposed to be a deterministic wallet
 881 2012-02-21 15:13:32 <ThomasV> this function was added later
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 883 2012-02-21 15:18:13 <helo> should the client say "Catching up..." if the last block it has seen is actually current (but still ~30 minutes old)
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 886 2012-02-21 15:21:00 <Ferroh> probably
 887 2012-02-21 15:21:11 <Ferroh> i think the client just guesses at what the last block probably is based on the time
 888 2012-02-21 15:21:28 <Ferroh> since the last block is pretty old right now (like 45 minutes), it might assume it's not the last block because it's so old
 889 2012-02-21 15:21:39 <Ferroh> ;;bc,tslb
 890 2012-02-21 15:21:44 <gribble> Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
 891 2012-02-21 15:21:50 <Ferroh> -.-
 892 2012-02-21 15:23:13 <Graet> http://www.blockchain.info/ slush 2 mions ago
 893 2012-02-21 15:23:29 <Ferroh> he asked the question 5 minutes ago though :P
 894 2012-02-21 15:23:50 <Ferroh> the block before that was 53 mins ago
 895 2012-02-21 15:24:09 <Ferroh> helo: so does the client say "up to date" now?
 896 2012-02-21 15:24:42 <helo> yeah
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 904 2012-02-21 15:38:23 <ThomasV> Joric: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:188.19.180.201
 905 2012-02-21 15:38:44 <ThomasV> what's the point?
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 913 2012-02-21 16:06:05 <Joric> delete it if you can
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 917 2012-02-21 16:10:38 <stani> hello mello
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 929 2012-02-21 16:49:18 <xorrbit> https://ogrr.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1139
 930 2012-02-21 16:50:18 <Joric> is it theoretically possible to eliminate double spending without logging every single transaction? did anyone study this question
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 932 2012-02-21 16:51:58 <luke-jr> Joric: you'd be a genius if you found a way
 933 2012-02-21 16:54:56 <Ferroh> Joric: suppose you only need 75% of the transactions to know that no double spending has occurred. Is that worth the effort of implementation?
 934 2012-02-21 16:55:27 <Ferroh> Anything you do to reduce the number of transactions that you need to log is not going to be much better than known compression methods anyway, so what is the purpose of this?
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 936 2012-02-21 17:00:37 <helo> 75% of the transactions will only allow you to know when no double spending has happened 75% of the time?
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 939 2012-02-21 17:06:33 <ThomasV> Joric: yes, with "local" subcurrencies
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 945 2012-02-21 17:07:52 <Joric> whoa
 946 2012-02-21 17:08:08 <Joric> Davincij, hi dude!!
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 967 2012-02-21 17:15:43 <Ferroh> helo: It doesn't matter if that's true or not.
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 972 2012-02-21 17:18:05 <Ferroh> it's really annoying that you can't kill bitcoind no matter how much you want to
 973 2012-02-21 17:18:23 <k9quaint> Ferroh: you are just not trying hard enough
 974 2012-02-21 17:18:31 <Ferroh> yes, I could pull the power plug
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 976 2012-02-21 17:18:55 <k9quaint> bullets work too
 977 2012-02-21 17:19:17 <k9quaint> fire probably
 978 2012-02-21 17:19:20 <k9quaint> drowning
 979 2012-02-21 17:19:37 <xorrbit> sudo kill -9 `pidof bitcoind`
 980 2012-02-21 17:19:38 <k9quaint> you could also probably beat it to death with a heavy blunt object
 981 2012-02-21 17:19:42 <xorrbit> easymode
 982 2012-02-21 17:19:50 <k9quaint> xorrbit: that kills my fun too :|
 983 2012-02-21 17:22:24 <vegard> xorrbit: that looks like sudo killall -9 bitcoind
 984 2012-02-21 17:23:41 Mad7Scientist has joined
 985 2012-02-21 17:24:17 <xorrbit> TIL killall -9 works as expected :)
 986 2012-02-21 17:25:03 <Ferroh> what does -9 do?
 987 2012-02-21 17:25:37 pusle has joined
 988 2012-02-21 17:25:53 <Ferroh> isnt signal  9 just SIGKILL?
 989 2012-02-21 17:25:53 <Joric> http://www.monzy.com/intro/killdashnine_lyrics.html
 990 2012-02-21 17:25:58 <Ferroh> doesnt it always send that anyway?
 991 2012-02-21 17:26:04 <gmaxwell> kill -9 works fine.
 992 2012-02-21 17:26:08 <gmaxwell> No, it sends term normally.
 993 2012-02-21 17:26:09 <xorrbit> SIGKILL yeah
 994 2012-02-21 17:26:14 <xorrbit> regualr kill is SIGTERM
 995 2012-02-21 17:26:20 <gmaxwell> Term works too— but it takes a minute while it cleanly shuts down.
 996 2012-02-21 17:26:21 <Ferroh> killall bitcoind does not kill bitcoind btw
 997 2012-02-21 17:26:23 <xorrbit> SIGTERM is like 'hey bro shut down please'
 998 2012-02-21 17:26:26 <Ferroh> i mean it does, for a moment
 999 2012-02-21 17:26:33 <Ferroh> oh okay
1000 2012-02-21 17:26:34 <Ferroh> I see.
1001 2012-02-21 17:26:39 <xorrbit> SIGKILL is like 'BOOM HEADSHOT'
1002 2012-02-21 17:26:40 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: killall sends SIGTERM by default too.
1003 2012-02-21 17:26:49 <Ferroh> yeah I see now
1004 2012-02-21 17:26:53 <k9quaint> typing is for pansies
1005 2012-02-21 17:26:59 <gmaxwell> You also will leave your database (block index, wallet) in an inconsistent state when you kill -9.
1006 2012-02-21 17:27:14 <gmaxwell> It will recover fine— but don't upgrade when you've killed it like that.
1007 2012-02-21 17:27:18 <xorrbit> SIGKILL can't be ignored by the process, it goes straight to init and init stops the process
1008 2012-02-21 17:27:26 <xorrbit> the process doesn't even know it's being killed
1009 2012-02-21 17:27:31 <Ferroh> the database should be atomic :(
1010 2012-02-21 17:27:52 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: It _is_ like any other database is: it's atomic by the fact that it can recover using the dblogs.
1011 2012-02-21 17:28:10 <Ferroh> then why is upgrading a concern after such an event?
1012 2012-02-21 17:28:43 <Ferroh> if that event prevents certain behavior, then it is not truly atomic.
1013 2012-02-21 17:28:43 <gmaxwell> And like any other database you'll have problems if you upgrade it while in an inconsistent state. (e.g. both mysql and postgres are not guarenteed to be able to read the rollback logs of prior versions)
1014 2012-02-21 17:29:03 <Ferroh> Oh, you're saying that a database update could cause problems.
1015 2012-02-21 17:29:11 <Ferroh> Not necessarily a bitcoind update.
1016 2012-02-21 17:29:14 <Ferroh> ?
1017 2012-02-21 17:29:25 <gmaxwell> Yes. (and has in the past) Right. But new bitcoind may ship with a new libdb version.
1018 2012-02-21 17:29:35 <gmaxwell> e.g. 4.6->4.7 had issues reading the logs from old versions.
1019 2012-02-21 17:29:42 <gmaxwell> (libdb 4.6->4.7)
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1028 2012-02-21 17:43:06 <Ferroh> gmaxwell
1029 2012-02-21 17:43:11 <Ferroh> if I killall -9 bitcoind
1030 2012-02-21 17:43:15 <Ferroh> and then run bitcoind again
1031 2012-02-21 17:43:19 <Ferroh> and let it recover
1032 2012-02-21 17:43:24 <Ferroh> am i then safe to upgrade db?
1033 2012-02-21 17:43:48 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: sure. Just shut it down cleanly (not kill -9)— and then upgrade.
1034 2012-02-21 17:43:55 <Ferroh> ok
1035 2012-02-21 17:44:13 <Ferroh> it seems that I can just import a billion keys, and it will continue to import while it scans the blockchain
1036 2012-02-21 17:44:18 <Ferroh> then you can just killall -9
1037 2012-02-21 17:44:20 <Ferroh> and restart it
1038 2012-02-21 17:44:32 <Ferroh> this way I dont have to patch it so that import works properly /eyeroll
1039 2012-02-21 17:44:42 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: yes, but it may not have completed the rescan so you may be missing some txn until you start with -rescan
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1041 2012-02-21 17:45:15 <Ferroh> that's fine, im just trying to avoid rescanning the blockchain literally 10000 times
1042 2012-02-21 17:45:19 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: this way I dont have to patch it so that import works properly???
1043 2012-02-21 17:45:29 <Ferroh> gmaxwell: yeah, import is currently pretty useless
1044 2012-02-21 17:45:30 <gmaxwell> oh. well, yuck.
1045 2012-02-21 17:45:47 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: it's fine to import single keys. Why are you importing 10000 keys? 0_o
1046 2012-02-21 17:45:55 <Ferroh> due to it only being able to import one key at a time before scanning the entire blockchain
1047 2012-02-21 17:46:02 <Ferroh> yes, its fine for single keys.
1048 2012-02-21 17:46:17 <Ferroh> ok well, im importing 5000 keys
1049 2012-02-21 17:46:20 <gmaxwell> Yea, I get what you're saying— that bugged me too but I didn't really see a usecase for otherwise.
1050 2012-02-21 17:46:21 <Ferroh> so I guess i exaggerated
1051 2012-02-21 17:46:37 <Ferroh> it might be worth it to manage the keys separately myself and then only import when they get used
1052 2012-02-21 17:46:47 <Ferroh> but the reason is that I want to pregenerate a bunch of keys,
1053 2012-02-21 17:46:52 <Ferroh> and then only put the public keys on my server
1054 2012-02-21 17:47:02 <Ferroh> and store the private keys in a wallet
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1056 2012-02-21 17:47:22 <gmaxwell> Fair enough— we'll have better support for that in the future.
1057 2012-02-21 17:47:26 <Ferroh> otherwise i have to either run bitcoind on the server (bad), or manage the private keys myself separately
1058 2012-02-21 17:47:36 <Ferroh> or, i'll need to generate keys more often
1059 2012-02-21 17:47:47 <Ferroh> okie doke
1060 2012-02-21 17:51:20 <Ferroh> basically all that's needed is a flag that prevents rescan on private key import, imo
1061 2012-02-21 17:52:31 <devrandom> ;;later tell BlueMatt optional files feature is now implemented in latest gitian - add optionals array to descriptor and it will flow through to assertion
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1063 2012-02-21 17:52:32 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1064 2012-02-21 17:52:49 <BlueMatt> devrandom: nice, maybe Ill have time to do that for 0.6...
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1067 2012-02-21 17:54:04 <jrmithdobbs> Ferroh: err, you can batch import
1068 2012-02-21 17:54:12 <Ferroh> oh?
1069 2012-02-21 17:54:13 <Ferroh> how
1070 2012-02-21 17:54:25 <jrmithdobbs> at least, you could in the versions of the patch i tested, let me look at what actually made it in ;p
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1072 2012-02-21 17:55:28 <Ferroh> Is it easy to disable the rescan on import? maybe i should just patch it
1073 2012-02-21 17:55:36 <jrmithdobbs> no
1074 2012-02-21 17:55:44 <Ferroh> I see :(
1075 2012-02-21 17:55:56 <gmaxwell> hm? I don't see why that should be hard.
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1077 2012-02-21 17:57:52 <jrmithdobbs> oh
1078 2012-02-21 17:58:04 <jrmithdobbs> sipa didn't merge the code that'd do the batching, haha
1079 2012-02-21 17:58:06 <wumpus> Ferroh: could add a third argument to importprivkey for that (which defaults to true)
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1081 2012-02-21 17:58:41 <jrmithdobbs> Ferroh: this is what you really want
1082 2012-02-21 17:58:44 <jrmithdobbs> Ferroh: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/220
1083 2012-02-21 17:58:52 <jrmithdobbs> dump/importwallet
1084 2012-02-21 17:59:08 <wumpus> he's using that
1085 2012-02-21 17:59:10 <Ferroh> i dont think it is o.O
1086 2012-02-21 17:59:22 <Ferroh> What I want is to be able to import without doing a rescan, basically.
1087 2012-02-21 17:59:25 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: no, he's using what was actually merged which just lets you do a single key at a time
1088 2012-02-21 17:59:35 <Ferroh> that merges an existing wallet,
1089 2012-02-21 17:59:38 <jrmithdobbs> Ferroh: right that code will let you give it a json file with a list of keys
1090 2012-02-21 17:59:40 <Ferroh> i dont have an existing wallet
1091 2012-02-21 17:59:41 <Ferroh> i just have a key.
1092 2012-02-21 17:59:45 <Ferroh> (well, 5000 keys)
1093 2012-02-21 17:59:52 <Ferroh> I see.
1094 2012-02-21 17:59:57 <jrmithdobbs> you just need to format it in the json as it expects and it wont do the rescan until after adding all of them
1095 2012-02-21 18:00:43 <wumpus> as I see it it is pretty easy *not* to rescan... disable the ScanForWalletTransactions and ReacceptWalletTransactions in importprivkey function...
1096 2012-02-21 18:00:59 <Ferroh> yeah, it seems easier to just disable rescanning really
1097 2012-02-21 18:01:11 <wumpus> then let that depend on the third argument
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1099 2012-02-21 18:01:25 <badluck> .broson
1100 2012-02-21 18:01:28 <jrmithdobbs> ya different code than i thought got merged, the privkey only stuff is straightforward
1101 2012-02-21 18:01:49 <wumpus> so that if you can guarantee that a private key is never used, you can tell it not to rescan
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1106 2012-02-21 18:03:50 <Ferroh> its not even about guaranteeing that its not used
1107 2012-02-21 18:04:00 <Ferroh> it's about delaying the rescan until after all keys are imported
1108 2012-02-21 18:04:04 <Ferroh> anyways i made the change
1109 2012-02-21 18:04:10 <Ferroh> everything should work now, lets see...
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1136 2012-02-21 18:28:49 <DrHaribo> Suggestion for "getwork" alternative: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64777.0
1137 2012-02-21 18:30:36 <Ferroh> so 250kb of private keys stored as plaintext
1138 2012-02-21 18:30:51 <Ferroh> adds about 2000kb to the wallet.dat
1139 2012-02-21 18:30:53 <Ferroh> :(
1140 2012-02-21 18:31:34 <Ferroh> 2000kb is not really a big deal
1141 2012-02-21 18:31:39 <Ferroh> that just seems like a lot of extra data
1142 2012-02-21 18:31:50 XMPPwocky has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1146 2012-02-21 18:37:00 <pingdrive> yo so blockchain.info ssays that my address contains transactions which maybe double spends
1147 2012-02-21 18:37:04 <pingdrive> how do i fix that
1148 2012-02-21 18:37:11 <pingdrive> or verify that is not the case
1149 2012-02-21 18:39:17 <Ferroh> are they very recent transactions?
1150 2012-02-21 18:39:28 <Ferroh> wait 6 blocks, then it will stop bitching I assume
1151 2012-02-21 18:39:41 <pingdrive> hmm
1152 2012-02-21 18:39:44 <pingdrive> oka
1153 2012-02-21 18:39:48 <pingdrive> pretty annoying shiut
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1155 2012-02-21 18:39:58 <pingdrive> never saw that happen
1156 2012-02-21 18:40:12 <pingdrive> with new transactions
1157 2012-02-21 18:42:39 <Ferroh> I have never seen it happen either
1158 2012-02-21 18:42:48 <Ferroh> where did you receive the coins from?
1159 2012-02-21 18:42:54 <Ferroh> some random guy, or a site like mtgox?
1160 2012-02-21 18:43:07 <Ferroh> pingdrive ^^
1161 2012-02-21 18:43:13 <pingdrive> mining
1162 2012-02-21 18:43:17 <Ferroh> oh
1163 2012-02-21 18:43:21 <pingdrive> actually
1164 2012-02-21 18:43:24 <Ferroh> weird
1165 2012-02-21 18:43:34 <pingdrive> it was not showing it before
1166 2012-02-21 18:43:39 <Ferroh> which site?
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1168 2012-02-21 18:43:44 <pingdrive> i had all the same txns
1169 2012-02-21 18:43:46 <Ferroh> i mean, which mining pool
1170 2012-02-21 18:43:53 <pingdrive> p2pool
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1175 2012-02-21 18:52:20 <pingdrive> okay looks like it might be blockchain.info issue
1176 2012-02-21 18:52:41 <pingdrive> no need to panic yet
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1184 2012-02-21 18:57:18 <Joric> Ferroh, wallet.dat expands every 32-byte secret into 279-byte one i have no idea why it does that, it can be done inplace
1185 2012-02-21 18:59:57 <badluck> hegaflope
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1190 2012-02-21 19:04:13 <Joric> though it's ASN1 and it contains metainformation while 32-byte secret doesn't even contain ec type
1191 2012-02-21 19:05:25 zeiris has joined
1192 2012-02-21 19:05:33 <sipa> did i miss anything important the past day?
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1196 2012-02-21 19:22:58 <sipa> Joric: imho, that was done because Satoshi didn't know he could just store the 32-byte secret.
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1198 2012-02-21 19:23:35 <Joric> i dont think satoshi is a tool
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1201 2012-02-21 19:25:12 <sipa> Joric: It's not an unreasonable choice; he uses OpenSSL's EC_KEY objects, so when saving them to a file, he serializes those
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1204 2012-02-21 19:41:10 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: i didn't merge show/importwallet on purpose; there are some minor problems with it still
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1207 2012-02-21 19:47:54 <Ferroh> sipa: adding an argument to disable rescan on import was good enough for me.
1208 2012-02-21 19:48:15 <Ferroh> (because it allows you to import as many keys as you want quickly)
1209 2012-02-21 19:48:32 <sipa> good point
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1219 2012-02-21 20:13:49 <Kiba> hmm
1220 2012-02-21 20:13:52 <hdon> hi all :) i have an idea for an online service that i want to do transactions in bitcoin. i want to start coding asap! where are docs on programming bitcoin transactions?
1221 2012-02-21 20:16:02 conman has joined
1222 2012-02-21 20:16:30 <sipa> hdon: bitcoin.it, protocol specification
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1224 2012-02-21 20:17:38 * hdon clicks
1225 2012-02-21 20:18:13 <hdon> sipa: no this is not what i want.i want the API reference. thanks though :)
1226 2012-02-21 20:18:33 <sipa> hdon: the RPC interface?
1227 2012-02-21 20:18:57 <xorrbit> I think he wants a library that implements the protocol
1228 2012-02-21 20:19:30 <hdon> yes, i just want to be able to write programs that, as part of their operation, send bitcoins, and can know when bitcoins are sent to the system
1229 2012-02-21 20:19:42 <xorrbit> but without knowing what language/etc he's working in this is futile
1230 2012-02-21 20:19:51 <sipa> hdon: you can do so using the RPC interface to bitcoind
1231 2012-02-21 20:20:16 <hdon> i see there is a JSON-RPC API. this is convenient for me as i can work using Javascript on the server side
1232 2012-02-21 20:22:11 <hdon> this looks excellent :) thanks!
1233 2012-02-21 20:22:23 <xorrbit> the downside to that approach is you have to use javascript on the server side :)
1234 2012-02-21 20:23:28 <hdon> xorrbit: i do a lot of server-side javascript development. i like the MVC pattern, and it's nice to write the controller in one language and be able to perform validation on the client when doing web development
1235 2012-02-21 20:23:45 <xorrbit> to each his own
1236 2012-02-21 20:24:03 <hdon> it's better than PHP!
1237 2012-02-21 20:24:09 <sipa> <flamewar>
1238 2012-02-21 20:24:11 <xorrbit> agreed
1239 2012-02-21 20:24:29 <xorrbit> not much is worse tho :)
1240 2012-02-21 20:24:36 <hdon> heh, true
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1249 2012-02-21 20:43:54 <DBordello> it appears taht even with minconf=0, sendfrom still won't send a transaction if the account has enough 0-conf funds.  Thoughts?
1250 2012-02-21 20:43:57 <DBordello> that*
1251 2012-02-21 20:44:24 hexTech has joined
1252 2012-02-21 20:44:30 <gmaxwell> DBordello: IIRC coin selection will not use unconfirmed transactions from anyone but itself.
1253 2012-02-21 20:44:43 <sipa> gmaxwell is right
1254 2012-02-21 20:44:50 <DBordello> coin selection?
1255 2012-02-21 20:45:11 localhost has joined
1256 2012-02-21 20:45:13 <gmaxwell> The code that selects inputs to be used.
1257 2012-02-21 20:45:24 <sipa> The algorithm that chooses unspent transaction outputs ("coins") to serve as inputs for a requested transaction.
1258 2012-02-21 20:45:26 helo_ has joined
1259 2012-02-21 20:45:43 <DBordello> so, wouldn't this qualify as "itself"?
1260 2012-02-21 20:45:52 <DBordello> or is perhaps the fee screwing things up
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1262 2012-02-21 20:46:18 <DBordello> if I send 10 BTC to account "a", then try to withdraw 10 from "a" using sendfrom, but there is enough confirmed funds in another account to cover the fee?
1263 2012-02-21 20:46:18 <sipa> It allows 0-confirmation for inputs from change outputs, and from send-to-selfs.
1264 2012-02-21 20:46:23 <gmaxwell> DBordello: depends on where those inputs came from— if they are change or otherwise signed by this client's private keys, then it will use them.
1265 2012-02-21 20:46:28 helo_ is now known as helo
1266 2012-02-21 20:46:43 <DBordello> oh, no, they are from another host
1267 2012-02-21 20:46:55 <sipa> Which host they are from is irrelevant.
1268 2012-02-21 20:47:01 <DBordello> well, different wallet
1269 2012-02-21 20:47:15 <DBordello> so, that won't work then'
1270 2012-02-21 20:47:17 <gmaxwell> DBordello: sendfrom doesn't do what you think it does I suspect.
1271 2012-02-21 20:47:33 <gmaxwell> It controls which account is charged for the txn, but has nothing to do with what inputs are used.
1272 2012-02-21 20:47:44 <DBordello> okay
1273 2012-02-21 20:47:51 <sipa> Read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained
1274 2012-02-21 20:49:35 <DBordello> okay
1275 2012-02-21 20:49:40 <DBordello> so, basically, no unconfirmed spending
1276 2012-02-21 20:49:43 <DBordello> unless it is from change?
1277 2012-02-21 20:50:03 <gmaxwell> Right, even the unconfirmed change is only used as a last resort.
1278 2012-02-21 20:50:49 <DBordello> Got it
1279 2012-02-21 20:51:01 <sipa> just received a verack with wrong checksum
1280 2012-02-21 20:51:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: see!
1281 2012-02-21 20:51:24 <gmaxwell> they do exist.
1282 2012-02-21 20:51:45 <BlueMatt> jm9000: ping
1283 2012-02-21 20:52:18 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell jm9000 just fyi, we found out last night that the debugable binaries built with debug symbols are only debugable in gdb as the symbol format differs from compiler to compiler...
1284 2012-02-21 20:52:18 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1285 2012-02-21 20:52:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: the preceeding "version" was correct, however
1286 2012-02-21 20:53:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: so now try replacing addrme with all RFC1918 addresses. :)
1287 2012-02-21 20:53:30 <sipa> ?
1288 2012-02-21 20:53:44 <helo> are the distributed binaries compiled with -g, and then stripped?
1289 2012-02-21 20:54:28 <BlueMatt> helo: no
1290 2012-02-21 20:54:39 <helo> i guess may result in worse performance
1291 2012-02-21 20:54:42 <BlueMatt> helo: I hope to (maybe) make that a reality for 0.6 though
1292 2012-02-21 20:55:03 <BlueMatt> helo: even unstripped binaries offer little to no performance difference
1293 2012-02-21 20:55:10 <helo> it's pretty nice being able to get useful core dumps :D
1294 2012-02-21 20:56:16 <helo> oh, i guess -g doesn't imply -Oanything. but for maximally useful core dumps, -O0 is best afaik
1295 2012-02-21 20:56:34 <BlueMatt> yea, but we arent gonna release -O0 binaries
1296 2012-02-21 20:56:42 <helo> understandable heh
1297 2012-02-21 20:56:44 <BlueMatt> -O2 -g is still pretty useful
1298 2012-02-21 20:57:10 <BlueMatt> -O3 starts to get really ugly, but even then -g would be much, much more useful than nothing
1299 2012-02-21 20:58:15 <sipa> and -O1 is still debugable
1300 2012-02-21 21:00:10 <BlueMatt> I would still argue for keeping it at -O2 for released binaries
1301 2012-02-21 21:00:18 <BlueMatt> debuging is still really damn useful there
1302 2012-02-21 21:00:34 <sipa> sure
1303 2012-02-21 21:02:55 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
1304 2012-02-21 21:02:56 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 23 hours, 23 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> Ok, ignore Luke's knee-jerk window bashing, then
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1313 2012-02-21 21:19:37 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 4000 0.06
1314 2012-02-21 21:19:38 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.06, is 1 minute and 4 seconds
1315 2012-02-21 21:20:16 <luke-jr> jgarzik: ping
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1350 2012-02-21 22:26:43 <jgarzik> luke-jr: pong
1351 2012-02-21 22:27:20 <luke-jr> jgarzik: don't suppose you'd know how to recover from a process lockup in kernelspace?
1352 2012-02-21 22:27:26 Dyaheon has joined
1353 2012-02-21 22:27:28 <luke-jr> or anything about the USB subsystem?
1354 2012-02-21 22:27:48 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: unload the modules for it is about all you can do, if they wont you're p much fucked
1355 2012-02-21 22:29:18 alexwaters has joined
1356 2012-02-21 22:29:37 <alexwaters> does anyone know the name of that long-term bitcoin storage solution that was shown off at the NYC conference? it used some kind of printer with magets...
1357 2012-02-21 22:30:56 <BlueMatt> you mean a deterministic wallet with a printer to print its seed?
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1360 2012-02-21 22:32:52 <alexwaters> possibly, it was some kind of miracle that used magnets. and they had ferrous dust to show a hash when you touched the string of magnets to the dust container
1361 2012-02-21 22:33:05 <alexwaters> iirc
1362 2012-02-21 22:33:11 <BlueMatt> that seems unreliable...
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1372 2012-02-21 22:50:04 <Ferroh> So is there no way to remove an address from the bitcoind wallet?
1373 2012-02-21 22:50:08 <sipa> No.
1374 2012-02-21 22:50:20 <sipa> I do have a removeprivkey patch though, but it's quite dangerous.
1375 2012-02-21 22:50:32 <sipa> If you don't use accounts, it's probably safe, though.
1376 2012-02-21 22:50:39 alexwaters has left ()
1377 2012-02-21 22:51:00 <Ferroh> it's safe for me because I have all keys generated separately from the bitcoind wallet.dat anyway
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1379 2012-02-21 22:51:53 <Ferroh> is there a way to list all the addresses in the wallet?
1380 2012-02-21 22:52:05 <Ferroh> any tool that works on new wallets? or an RPC patch in the future?
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1382 2012-02-21 22:53:29 <sipa> I have a dumpallkeys patch :)
1383 2012-02-21 22:53:36 <Joric> sipa, why sending 1 btc from this address http://blockchain.info/address/1JoricCBkW8C5m7QUZMwoRz9rBCM6ZSy96 needs fee? is it a collection of tiny inputs or coins are not mature enough
1384 2012-02-21 22:54:11 <sipa> Joric: calculate the priority :)
1385 2012-02-21 22:54:19 <Joric> how?
1386 2012-02-21 22:54:54 <sipa> sum of all inputs' value, each multiplied by its number of confirmations
1387 2012-02-21 22:55:29 <sipa> and the end result divided by the transaction size in bytes
1388 2012-02-21 22:55:43 <Joric> so theres a chance a fee would not be needed by tomorrow
1389 2012-02-21 22:57:06 <gmaxwell> Joric: sure, the priority increases over time.
1390 2012-02-21 22:57:07 dwon has joined
1391 2012-02-21 22:57:24 <helo> it would be kind of neat to be able to set probabilistic fee requirements. so you might have a 1 in 5 chance of accepting a certain value of transaction.
1392 2012-02-21 22:57:42 <gmaxwell> er. yuck.
1393 2012-02-21 22:57:54 <Ferroh> people do not understand probabilities
1394 2012-02-21 22:57:56 <gmaxwell> then the attacker will just send 5x the transactions!
1395 2012-02-21 22:58:00 <gmaxwell> thats dumb.
1396 2012-02-21 22:58:17 <gmaxwell> er. helo sorry, that came out ruder than I intended.
1397 2012-02-21 22:58:23 <Ferroh> users will get annoyed that they sometimes pay more and will think of the worst times
1398 2012-02-21 22:58:28 <Ferroh> HELO YOUR IDEA IS SUCH A PIECE OF SHIT
1399 2012-02-21 22:58:33 <Joric> it's kind of funny, to take random amounts of money )
1400 2012-02-21 22:58:41 <Ferroh> sorry, that came out slightly ruder than expected
1401 2012-02-21 22:58:41 <helo> i guess the acceptance over time happens as less greedy miners solve blocks that accept a particular kind of transaction
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1404 2012-02-21 22:59:52 <gmaxwell> helo: miner acceptance has nothing to do with fees now (and probably won't for quite a few years). We only have fees so antisocial twits don't do .. while true; do bitcoind sendtoaddress `bitcoind getnewaddress` 0.00000001; done  and make free transactions unusuable.
1405 2012-02-21 22:59:52 <Joric> sorry for the rhyme i swear it was accidental
1406 2012-02-21 23:00:04 <gmaxwell> Joric: you're just mental.
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1408 2012-02-21 23:02:41 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: krishKM opened issue 881 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/881>
1409 2012-02-21 23:03:09 <helo> i guess low-reward transactions being accepted eventually, albeit more slowly, doesn't serve to prevent spam
1410 2012-02-21 23:04:37 <gmaxwell> helo: It can if done right.
1411 2012-02-21 23:05:09 <gmaxwell> The way the current anti-spam rules work is that it effectively ratelimits how frequently a given piece of value goes through the blockchain.
1412 2012-02-21 23:05:36 <gmaxwell> So the only way to create a ton of transactions is to slowly bleed fees, or use a enormous amount of bitcoin.
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1415 2012-02-21 23:06:42 <helo> if there was a miner that accepted (maybe its own) really spammy transactions, is there anything that would keep its blocks from being accepted?
1416 2012-02-21 23:07:20 <gmaxwell> No.
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1418 2012-02-21 23:08:17 <gmaxwell> But fortunately miners generally want the system to be successful. And most of them won't intentionally increase transaction volume in ways that hurt bitcoin's decenteralization... or at least most miners excluding Deepbit.
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1439 2012-02-21 23:57:13 <luke-jr> Ferroh: the unsafeness of removing keys is that it has very weird affects on the wallet
1440 2012-02-21 23:57:42 <luke-jr> sipa: why not just adjust the accounts so removed key remaining balance is taken from the '' account?
1441 2012-02-21 23:57:50 <luke-jr> or 'Removed Keys' :p
1442 2012-02-21 23:58:20 <luke-jr> (reminder: accounts can have negative balances)