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  11 2012-02-22 00:14:33 <jgarzik> luke-jr: highly dependent on where the lockup has occurred...  i.e. if you are waiting on a kernel driver to [never] return, that gets highly complicated and driver-dependent
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  13 2012-02-22 00:15:28 <luke-jr> jgarzik: my goal was to stop the process so I can sleep/resume, which I successfully use to reset my Radeon
  14 2012-02-22 00:15:30 <BlueMatt> that was the laggyst response to a time-sensitive question ever...
  15 2012-02-22 00:15:37 <luke-jr> 1 sec, I'll grab the error part…
  16 2012-02-22 00:15:45 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: still would be nice to fix it
  17 2012-02-22 00:16:14 <luke-jr> drivers/usb/core/hub.c:hub_activate after kick_khubd(hub);
  18 2012-02-22 00:16:50 <luke-jr> this is more or less reproducable with a cheap TigerDirect USB hub
  19 2012-02-22 00:16:55 <luke-jr> but I hate to do it…
  20 2012-02-22 00:17:01 <luke-jr> (unless I can recover)
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  35 2012-02-22 01:02:25 <finway> No meeting last night?
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  37 2012-02-22 01:05:29 finway has quit (Client Quit)
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  41 2012-02-22 01:17:40 <BlueMatt> meeting?
  42 2012-02-22 01:17:51 <sipa> It was tuesday.
  43 2012-02-22 01:19:22 <BlueMatt> you mean last tuesday?
  44 2012-02-22 01:20:04 <sipa> There was once the idea to hold a meeting every tuesday at 21:00 UTC; yesterday however, there was none.
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  48 2012-02-22 01:22:33 <luke-jr> today is Tuesday
  49 2012-02-22 01:24:10 <sipa> To me, and in UTC, it is not.
  50 2012-02-22 01:25:32 <luke-jr> :p
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  56 2012-02-22 01:37:30 * Kiba rattles his saber at luke-jr
  57 2012-02-22 01:57:20 <Kiba> I CHALLENGE YE TO A DUEL!
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  66 2012-02-22 02:10:10 <Graet> definitely wednesday
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  69 2012-02-22 02:17:44 <luke-jr> [20:51:47] <-- Kiba has left this server (Read error: Operation timed out). <-- I win?
  70 2012-02-22 02:18:00 <k9quaint> unless it is a duel of disconnects
  71 2012-02-22 02:18:05 <conman> lol
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  73 2012-02-22 02:18:43 <k9quaint> my favorite viperjbm thread was nuked :(
  74 2012-02-22 02:19:01 <k9quaint> guess I will have to floss my cat instead of post in it :|
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  76 2012-02-22 02:20:22 <Graet> still wednesday whether Kiba left or not
  77 2012-02-22 02:20:28 <k9quaint> luke-jr: kiba is kicking your ass in the disconnect contest
  78 2012-02-22 02:21:03 <k9quaint> Graet: its tuesday in the part of the world that is amazing
  79 2012-02-22 02:21:23 <k9quaint> ly stupid
  80 2012-02-22 02:21:30 <Graet> :)
  81 2012-02-22 02:21:35 <k9quaint> pre-mature press of enter key
  82 2012-02-22 02:21:39 <Graet> lol
  83 2012-02-22 02:21:50 <Graet> i was completeing the scentence - but you did :)
  84 2012-02-22 02:22:18 <k9quaint> there is a braincell holocaust going on in my head
  85 2012-02-22 02:22:30 <k9quaint> <--- reading something Rick Santorum wrote
  86 2012-02-22 02:22:36 * Raccoon explodes into a frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter.
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  91 2012-02-22 02:31:52 <JFK911> again?
  92 2012-02-22 02:32:01 tower has joined
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  96 2012-02-22 02:41:49 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 4000 7.27
  97 2012-02-22 02:41:49 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 7.27, is 2 hours, 10 minutes, and 6 seconds
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 100 2012-02-22 02:53:12 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 11500 7.27
 101 2012-02-22 02:53:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 11500 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 7.27, is 45 minutes and 15 seconds
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 123 2012-02-22 03:35:59 <TheEternal> I have a tech support question. my friend was mining back in July of last year. His bitcoin wallet was version 0.3.24 and he couldn't connect. so he upgraded to 0.5.2. it opened but he is stuck at block 144943. does anoyone know why?
 124 2012-02-22 03:37:11 <luke-jr> TheEternal: usually cases like that are because of corrupt blockchains
 125 2012-02-22 03:37:20 <luke-jr> TheEternal: can you confirm he has some connections?
 126 2012-02-22 03:37:32 <luke-jr> also, if that's the case, probably his statusbar will say something about upgrading
 127 2012-02-22 03:37:56 <luke-jr> first thing to do is confirm he has some connections, though
 128 2012-02-22 03:38:39 <TheEternal> yeah he has about 12 connections. it does say "upgrade..."
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 130 2012-02-22 03:39:03 <luke-jr> TheEternal: OK, sounds like blockchain is corrupt
 131 2012-02-22 03:39:13 <luke-jr> TheEternal: Delete blk*.dat and restart
 132 2012-02-22 03:39:19 <luke-jr> whatever you do, do NOT delete wallet.dat
 133 2012-02-22 03:39:26 <TheEternal> ok let me try
 134 2012-02-22 03:39:30 pingdrive has joined
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 136 2012-02-22 03:40:44 <TheEternal> ok. where is the blk*.dat files?
 137 2012-02-22 03:40:50 <luke-jr> somewhere.
 138 2012-02-22 03:41:05 <sipa> The same place as wallet.dat is :)
 139 2012-02-22 03:41:06 <TheEternal> looking
 140 2012-02-22 03:41:20 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory
 141 2012-02-22 03:43:11 <TheEternal> i have 2 files. blk00001.dat and blkindex.dat. delete both?
 142 2012-02-22 03:43:26 <luke-jr> yes, after you stop the client
 143 2012-02-22 03:43:31 <luke-jr> and the icon disappears
 144 2012-02-22 03:43:34 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 145 2012-02-22 03:43:41 <sipa> Maybe you just want to rename/move then
 146 2012-02-22 03:43:51 <sipa> As it will take many hours to download them again.
 147 2012-02-22 03:44:09 <luke-jr> sipa: I thought not so long with 0.5.2?
 148 2012-02-22 03:44:23 <TheEternal> yeah. i moved them.
 149 2012-02-22 03:44:39 <sipa> luke-jr: in theory only 20 minutes if you have fast disk and network, yes
 150 2012-02-22 03:45:12 <TheEternal> ok. it is starting at 0 and see how long it takes.
 151 2012-02-22 03:46:04 <luke-jr> TheEternal: it will be done before you finish reciting all of pi
 152 2012-02-22 03:46:12 <sipa> Backwards.
 153 2012-02-22 03:46:27 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 154 2012-02-22 03:47:11 <TheEternal> Thx Luke-jr
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 157 2012-02-22 03:58:49 <TheEternal> ok on m y friends computer it is syncing. i wanted to see how fast it would take on my spare computer to sync and im 24% in already. I installed it about 3 minutes ago.
 158 2012-02-22 03:59:16 <luke-jr> 24% isn't really 24% btw
 159 2012-02-22 04:00:11 <sipa> After 100000 is gets slow.
 160 2012-02-22 04:00:35 <TheEternal> ok. mine is at 6% and his is 24%. still timing it...
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 171 2012-02-22 04:28:11 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 882 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/882>
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 230 2012-02-22 08:20:27 <Joric> why client shows insifficient balance message right after the decryption? shouldn't it be done before i enter the passphrase?
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 253 2012-02-22 08:58:47 <wumpus> Joric: yes, I guess you could add a balance check before requesting unlock...
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 268 2012-02-22 09:42:31 <cande> whats the commandline for bitcoind using rpcuser&passwords ?
 269 2012-02-22 09:48:56 <gmaxwell> -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=y  ... but normally you don't provide them on the commandline, you put them in the config.
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 273 2012-02-22 09:50:22 <cande> ah, thx gmaxwell works now
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 278 2012-02-22 10:00:23 <Joric> did anyone notice bitcoin.org has a terrible, terrible 404 page? http://bitcoin.org/12341234
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 281 2012-02-22 10:01:24 <Joric> there's no backlink even
 282 2012-02-22 10:02:02 <Joric> how users could get back to the front page
 283 2012-02-22 10:06:09 <wumpus> make a better one, issue a pull request to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org
 284 2012-02-22 10:06:46 <UukGoblin> Joric, with their... back button?
 285 2012-02-22 10:07:59 <wumpus> I agree it's terrible though, seems github hijacks them
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 305 2012-02-22 10:56:19 <Joric> about print in python
 306 2012-02-22 10:56:25 <Joric> - in python 2.x you must use it as a statement.
 307 2012-02-22 10:56:29 <Joric> - in python 3.x you can't use it as a statement.
 308 2012-02-22 10:57:07 <Joric> guido went crazy
 309 2012-02-22 10:58:15 <sturles> python: Programming the way Guido indented it!
 310 2012-02-22 10:58:22 <wumpus> I think his rationale for making it a function was "to simplify the language", as in why would print be an exception?
 311 2012-02-22 10:58:30 <sipa> why make skmething a statement if it works as well as an expression?
 312 2012-02-22 10:59:27 <wumpus> print had an awful syntax, with >> if you wanted to print to a stream ,wtf
 313 2012-02-22 11:00:21 <Joric> yeah just used it recently, print >> sys.stderr, "..." pretty convenient
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 317 2012-02-22 11:01:13 <wumpus> convenience is only a matter of habit
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 319 2012-02-22 11:04:00 <Joric> not sure how it would look in python 3, something like print('...', file=sys.stderr)
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 321 2012-02-22 11:07:50 <wumpus> yes
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 331 2012-02-22 12:13:12 <MagicalTux> https://mtgox.com/api/stats/ua <- stats on user agents seen on online bitcoin nodes (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64987.0 for more details)
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 374 2012-02-22 13:45:27 <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: I fixed the bitcoin nodes db fyi
 375 2012-02-22 13:45:55 <MagicalTux> issue was way too many unreachable nodes, and the system couldn't scan fast enough to know all nodes. Fixed by implementing parallel scan
 376 2012-02-22 13:47:18 <sipa> MagicalTux: my bitcoin-seeder crawler is able to keep up with the network and work through all nodes in +- 20-30 minutes if I use around 25 threads
 377 2012-02-22 13:47:35 <MagicalTux> sipa: I use a single thread
 378 2012-02-22 13:47:37 <MagicalTux> but 200 active sockets
 379 2012-02-22 13:47:44 kiba has joined
 380 2012-02-22 13:48:20 <MagicalTux> I'm planning on putting into production 4 "super nodes" that can handle a large number of connection and will appear as connectable from other nodes to collect more info
 381 2012-02-22 13:48:32 <MagicalTux> (also I'm collecting user agents from BIP#0014 too)
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 385 2012-02-22 13:51:12 <MagicalTux> so far I only see bitcoin-qt as a user agent
 386 2012-02-22 13:52:45 <sipa> MagicalTux: nanotube compared your nodes database with a dump from my crawler by the way; the conclusion was that only 20% of his selected seed nodes appeared in my list, but those had on average >60% uptime according to my statistics
 387 2012-02-22 13:53:38 <MagicalTux> sipa: my list was quite incomplete since ~september as visible on this graph: http://stats.bitcoin.it/rrd/nodes_total-year.png
 388 2012-02-22 13:53:57 <MagicalTux> the crawling has resumed now and has already more than 50k nodes
 389 2012-02-22 13:55:21 <sipa> I have 21k nodes, but it ignores old version, and bans not-frequently-responsive ones
 390 2012-02-22 13:55:26 <MagicalTux> http://stats.bitcoin.it/rrd/nodes_total-day.png <- resuming of crawling
 391 2012-02-22 13:56:01 <sipa> I can give you a dump of my db, if you like
 392 2012-02-22 13:56:42 <MagicalTux> it's building fine here :)
 393 2012-02-22 13:56:45 <sipa> ok
 394 2012-02-22 13:56:48 <MagicalTux> I don't need to touch it
 395 2012-02-22 13:56:55 <MagicalTux> it works by itself, at its own pace
 396 2012-02-22 13:57:21 <MagicalTux> and I can easily increase the pace if needed
 397 2012-02-22 13:57:42 <sipa> ;;later tell nanotube 14:45:37 < MagicalTux> sipa: my list was quite incomplete since ~september as visible on this graph: http://stats.bitcoin.it/rrd/nodes_total-year.png; the crawling has resumed now and has already more than 50k nodes
 398 2012-02-22 13:57:42 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 399 2012-02-22 13:57:43 <badluck> par-T
 400 2012-02-22 13:59:37 <sipa> ;;later tell nanotube Maybe another update of the seed list?
 401 2012-02-22 13:59:37 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 403 2012-02-22 14:07:14 <MagicalTux> sipa: btw if it's about seed list, using our "bootstrap" list could be possible too (nodes in that list were successfully connected to less than 1 hour ago): https://mtgox.com/api/stats/bootstrap
 404 2012-02-22 14:07:43 <MagicalTux> right now I erased the db so it's random nodes, however in ~15 days it'll filter out any node that was down in the past 15 days
 405 2012-02-22 14:07:45 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 883 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/883>
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 419 2012-02-22 14:33:26 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: BIP 14 is mostly useless, as bitcoind developers refuse to implement it properly; it is intentionally lying about client/version
 420 2012-02-22 14:33:50 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: so it's impossible to tell if a client is Bitcoin-Qt or bitcoind
 421 2012-02-22 14:34:00 <MagicalTux> luke-jr: that reminds me of web user agents
 422 2012-02-22 14:34:25 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: yeah, it's just annoying because BIP 14 was specifically designed to avoid that problem :/
 423 2012-02-22 14:35:57 <sipa> Not distinguishing between bitcoin-qt and bitcoind is reasonable, imho, but always advertizing as bitcoin-qt is strange
 424 2012-02-22 14:36:00 <riush> i've seen a /Satoshi:0.6.0/ ua the other day.. isn't that bitcoind?
 425 2012-02-22 14:36:02 youdied has joined
 426 2012-02-22 14:36:20 <luke-jr> riush: that's a BIP 14-compatible bitcoind, not mainline
 427 2012-02-22 14:36:34 <riush> ah, i see
 428 2012-02-22 14:36:51 <luke-jr> sipa: my BIP 14 bugfix patch says "Satoshi" and has a build-time option for adding the specific client on the end
 429 2012-02-22 14:37:07 <luke-jr> riush: probably a next-test or Eligius node
 430 2012-02-22 14:37:14 <youdied> gdfgdfg
 431 2012-02-22 14:37:34 <sipa> luke-jr: but by default it adds bitcoin-qt or bitcoind as well, no?
 432 2012-02-22 14:37:39 <youdied> fuck. how do I hide my IP address?
 433 2012-02-22 14:37:47 <sipa> youdied: disconnect from the internet
 434 2012-02-22 14:37:55 <luke-jr> sipa: no, by default it omits that
 435 2012-02-22 14:38:23 <luke-jr> sipa: you have to build with -DPUBLIC_CLIENT_NAME to add those
 436 2012-02-22 14:38:37 <youdied> anyone answering me how to hide my IP?
 437 2012-02-22 14:39:02 <sipa> youdied: if you want a more specific answer, you'll need to ask a more specific question :)
 438 2012-02-22 14:39:22 <MagicalTux> luke-jr: I guess .ljr2 is you ?
 439 2012-02-22 14:39:33 <MagicalTux> https://mtgox.com/api/stats/ua <- you appear in there
 440 2012-02-22 14:39:34 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: a very old codebase I wrote
 441 2012-02-22 14:39:42 <luke-jr> I don't *think* I use it anywhere anymore
 442 2012-02-22 14:39:51 <MagicalTux> luke-jr: I could tell you the ip
 443 2012-02-22 14:40:02 <luke-jr> sure
 444 2012-02-22 14:40:04 <luke-jr> PM
 445 2012-02-22 14:40:07 <sipa> luke-jr: I'd be fine with just advertizing as /Satoshi:0.6.0/, actually
 446 2012-02-22 14:40:19 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: yeah, that's not me
 447 2012-02-22 14:40:32 <MagicalTux> running bitcoind 3.23
 448 2012-02-22 14:40:35 <helo> youdied: write it down on a piece of paper and put it under your mattress
 449 2012-02-22 14:40:36 <luke-jr> sipa: it'd be an improvement over the current situation, for sure
 450 2012-02-22 14:41:23 <luke-jr> (it'd also be compliant)
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 452 2012-02-22 14:50:28 <libcoin> would it make sense to distinguish between 0.6.0-bip16 and 0.6.0-bip17 ?
 453 2012-02-22 14:51:07 <libcoin> it is different protocols (they will not forward each others P2SHs)
 454 2012-02-22 14:51:20 <libcoin> P2SH-tx'es that is
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 456 2012-02-22 14:52:35 <luke-jr> libcoin: I don't think it's long-term enough to be a concern
 457 2012-02-22 14:52:51 <luke-jr> libcoin: neither BIP is valid until adopted, and once one is adopted, there's no purpose keeping the other around
 458 2012-02-22 14:54:56 <libcoin> right, that is a point, though it would be nice to be able to see how many of the different clients would be out there
 459 2012-02-22 14:56:06 gavinandresen has joined
 460 2012-02-22 14:56:09 <libcoin> Btw - I just started updating libcoin to support both, do you see any immediate issues with that ?
 461 2012-02-22 14:56:59 <libcoin> They are treated as two different chains bitcoin-bip16 and bitcoin-bip17, however, I would like to have a bitcoin-bip16&17 too, but I havn
 462 2012-02-22 14:57:05 <Graet> http://blockchain.info/P2SH  <
 463 2012-02-22 14:57:22 <libcoin> t been through all the bip 17 code yet
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 467 2012-02-22 14:58:25 <libcoin> Graet: as you show most agree that P2SH is a good idea, how is the question...
 468 2012-02-22 14:59:00 <sipa> There's around 35% support for BIP16 now.
 469 2012-02-22 14:59:06 <gavinandresen> that question has been answered, in my opinion.  BIP 16 has the support of the core dev team, the mining pools, and "the community"
 470 2012-02-22 14:59:13 <Graet> ^^
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 472 2012-02-22 14:59:48 <gavinandresen> Last I heard, luke was going to withdraw BIP 17
 473 2012-02-22 15:00:23 <sipa> This means that there is 50.7% support from the network-except-deepbit
 474 2012-02-22 15:00:37 <gavinandresen> Time to ask Tycho to get busy
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 476 2012-02-22 15:02:42 <libcoin> gavinandresen: regarding 16/17, I don't really care, one of the points with libcoin is to make it easy to choose any chain, but if there is no need to code both 16 and 17 I can save some time.
 477 2012-02-22 15:03:17 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: BIP 17 has just as much dev/community support
 478 2012-02-22 15:03:45 * conman hears the crickets chirping
 479 2012-02-22 15:04:25 <libcoin> gavinandresen: and regarding you statement for withdrawal of bip17 - it ain't final till it is on the mailing list
 480 2012-02-22 15:04:46 <libcoin> (according to the nice video you posted the other day)
 481 2012-02-22 15:04:50 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: did you watch that poisonous people video?  You're doing it again, saying the same thing over and over and over again hoping nobody notices that you are the ONLY ONE MAKING THE ARGUMENT
 482 2012-02-22 15:04:53 <luke-jr> I've deferred withdrawing BIP 17 as a result of more people expressing support
 483 2012-02-22 15:06:27 <gavinandresen> There will be people expressing support for any side to any issue. But to keep a project moving forward at some point a decision has to be made and we have to move forward.
 484 2012-02-22 15:06:33 <gavinandresen> I don't understand why you can't see that.
 485 2012-02-22 15:06:44 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I did watch it. You are the only one arguing against BIP 17. How about we stop with the name calling, and just drop anything other than useful conversation?
 486 2012-02-22 15:07:32 <gavinandresen> Ok, then, what will it take for you to withdraw BIP 17 so we can move forward?
 487 2012-02-22 15:07:54 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: BIP 16 achieving a majority, and no reason to expect that to change.
 488 2012-02-22 15:08:05 <luke-jr> possibly sooner than that, but that will definitely do it
 489 2012-02-22 15:08:17 <luke-jr> how about the inverse? what will it take for you to withdraw BIP 16 so we can move forward?
 490 2012-02-22 15:08:22 <sipa> To me, it is obvious that both solutions are viable, but we as a community must be able to choose one above the other; given that BIP16 has more support (for whatever reason), that one is the easiest choice.
 491 2012-02-22 15:08:42 <Graet> ^^^
 492 2012-02-22 15:08:54 * luke-jr wonders if the current BIP 16 is with or without ver=2
 493 2012-02-22 15:09:00 <sipa> Without.
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 495 2012-02-22 15:09:16 <sipa> Unfortunately, but that would make it even harder to roll out.
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 497 2012-02-22 15:10:35 <gavinandresen> I'd withdraw BIP16 if the poll you created on the forums showed there was a majority support for BIP17, if the wiki page with developer support you created showed a preference for BIP17, and if there were more votes in the blockchain for BIP17.  Actually, any 2 of those 3 would convince me.
 498 2012-02-22 15:11:27 <gavinandresen> Now speaking of moving forward I'm done talking more about BIP16 versus 17, I'm going to get some productive work done.
 499 2012-02-22 15:11:34 <luke-jr> sounds good
 500 2012-02-22 15:11:48 <luke-jr> hopefully this will all be done by March
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 513 2012-02-22 15:45:13 <UukGoblin> amazing how close the total hashrate is to 10THash/s
 514 2012-02-22 15:45:17 <luke-jr> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/884
 515 2012-02-22 15:45:19 <UukGoblin> almost like if someone wanted to keep it there
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 517 2012-02-22 15:49:31 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 884 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/884>
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 537 2012-02-22 16:17:24 <wumpus> i'm getting so incredibly tired of this... just had to restrain myself from going into a rage onthe forums. Another idiot that thinks he can just start listing things and we'll start implementing them.. ffs just contribute code or shut up
 538 2012-02-22 16:18:23 <gmaxwell> wumpus: Just respond "patches accepted"
 539 2012-02-22 16:18:55 <gmaxwell> (it's hard to do that when they're also suggesting idiotic stuff— but if they do implement they'll get a clue in the process)
 540 2012-02-22 16:19:22 <wumpus> well I love getting your ideas... don't get me wrong, but please don't pretend you know things better if you've never written a line of  bitcoin code, and certainly don't feel entitled to them being implemented...
 541 2012-02-22 16:19:29 Lolcust has joined
 542 2012-02-22 16:19:30 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yep I did that :)
 543 2012-02-22 16:20:10 <gmaxwell> yea. Ideas are cheap— still good to hear. Implementation (and testing) is the hard part.
 544 2012-02-22 16:20:14 <gavinandresen> "Great idea, somebody should implement that."
 545 2012-02-22 16:21:08 <luke-jr> if only there was a reason to expect stuff to get merged once implemented ;p
 546 2012-02-22 16:21:17 <gavinandresen> or "Great idea, just not a development priority for me right now."
 547 2012-02-22 16:21:30 <wumpus> ideas are great, but I wish people would just bring them like "it might be a good idea to add..." instead of complaining about them as "absent features"
 548 2012-02-22 16:22:01 <gavinandresen> Yup. It's not like we're getting rich with all the work we're doing....
 549 2012-02-22 16:22:05 <wumpus> exactly gavinandresen
 550 2012-02-22 16:22:43 <wumpus> luke-jr: well it depends of course on how controversial the change is / how much impact it has
 551 2012-02-22 16:22:45 <gavinandresen> Speaking of which....  I'm really curious to see what happens with etotheipi's crowdfunding experiment
 552 2012-02-22 16:22:48 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: would a fulldump option for getblock be accepted?
 553 2012-02-22 16:23:09 <wumpus> eotheipi seems to be doing it right
 554 2012-02-22 16:23:18 <luke-jr> wumpus: Coinbaser has zero controversy or impact (to people who don't enable it), yet it's been stable for nearly a year ;)
 555 2012-02-22 16:23:32 <sipa> I'd like a dumptransaction and a dumpblock feature.
 556 2012-02-22 16:23:39 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 557 2012-02-22 16:23:40 <luke-jr> sipa: a separate RPC command?
 558 2012-02-22 16:23:54 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: sure, if you can get agreement on what the output aught to be (raw hex dump? separate fields?  full transactions or just txids?)
 559 2012-02-22 16:23:54 <luke-jr> and what would dumptxn do different from gettxn?
 560 2012-02-22 16:24:16 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: there's been a somewhat standard format for a long time in jgarzik's dumpblock branch
 561 2012-02-22 16:24:45 <luke-jr> the difference from getblock afaik is only that it includes the full txns instead of ids
 562 2012-02-22 16:24:52 <luke-jr> so you don't need to flood bitcoind with gettxn for each
 563 2012-02-22 16:25:05 <sipa> luke-jr: gettransaction has some things that are mostly wallet-specific (for example, it has a fee calculation that does not need the block chain, and may differ from the actual transaction's fee in exotic cases)
 564 2012-02-22 16:25:51 <luke-jr> sipa: doesn't fee calculation *always* need the blockchain? O.o
 565 2012-02-22 16:26:09 <sipa> luke-jr: no, wallet transactions store more information
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 567 2012-02-22 16:26:28 <luke-jr> ok, so a cached fee… but in that case, isn't it a bug if it doesn't match?
 568 2012-02-22 16:26:34 <sipa> maybe, yes
 569 2012-02-22 16:26:46 <sipa> but it's impossible to calculate the real fee without the block chain
 570 2012-02-22 16:27:10 <sipa> and it requires looking at all prevouts
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 572 2012-02-22 16:28:12 <sipa> so maybe "dumptransaction" should not give the fee at all (it's really a raw dump of the transaction as it exists in the chain), and "gettransaction" should (it gives a transaction from the point of entry-in-wallet-ledger)
 573 2012-02-22 16:28:29 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: is there a reason getblock uses mrkl_root instead of merkleroot ?
 574 2012-02-22 16:28:51 <luke-jr> sipa: can always ignore extra data imo
 575 2012-02-22 16:29:17 <sipa> right, but what when headers-only is implemented?
 576 2012-02-22 16:29:49 <luke-jr> sipa: I don't see how that changes anything here
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 578 2012-02-22 16:30:05 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: ? which getblock?  the getblock in GIT head outputs merkleroot
 579 2012-02-22 16:30:08 <sipa> it feels somewhat cleaner that you can say "command X always works, command Y requires full mode", instead of "depending on what is available, command X either gives information or fails, unless it's a wallet tx"
 580 2012-02-22 16:30:12 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: sorry, I'm getting my diff backward
 581 2012-02-22 16:30:33 <luke-jr> sipa: not for an API, IMO; easier to run one method, then check what's in the result
 582 2012-02-22 16:30:46 <sipa> ok, maybe
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 585 2012-02-22 16:34:58 <sipa> wow, 48 commits since v0.6.0rc1 (exclusing merges)
 586 2012-02-22 16:35:12 <LittleDuke> i have two transactions one at .0597889 @ 157 confirms and a 1.0 @ 147 confirms, but i'm getting this error from bitcoind atm when i try to do a sendtoaddress 1.0597889 "error: {"code":-4,"message":"Error: This transaction requires a transaction fee of at least 0.0005 because of its amount, complexity, or use of recently received funds  "}"  -- wondering that triggering conditions are causing this, since i haven't seen this
 587 2012-02-22 16:35:12 <LittleDuke>  before
 588 2012-02-22 16:36:43 <gavinandresen> LittleDuke: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
 589 2012-02-22 16:36:47 <LittleDuke> btw, i'm working on some autopay gateway software atm
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 601 2012-02-22 16:55:19 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: is it OK if I change hashprevious/hashnext to prevblock/nextblock?
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 603 2012-02-22 16:55:48 <sipa> Since when were hashprevious/hashnext in use?
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 607 2012-02-22 16:57:19 <luke-jr> sipa: getblock has it in git master
 608 2012-02-22 16:58:08 <gavinandresen> since 0.5 I think.  hash/hashprevious/hashnext makes sense to me.  I'd expect previousblock to be a json object with the entire previous block.....
 609 2012-02-22 16:58:44 <gavinandresen> getmemorypool has previousblockhash
 610 2012-02-22 16:58:56 <sipa> BBE has prev_block
 611 2012-02-22 16:59:00 <gavinandresen> (sigh, I hate naming inconsistencies)
 612 2012-02-22 17:00:32 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: may I make it consistent with gmp?
 613 2012-02-22 17:00:38 <sipa> gmp?
 614 2012-02-22 17:00:52 <sipa> ah, getmemorypool
 615 2012-02-22 17:01:34 <vegard> is there a way to get raw transactions in json format as on blockexplorer? I have bitcoin 0.5.2
 616 2012-02-22 17:02:07 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: consistency is good, but so is compatibility.   Deprecate hashprevious, report both hashprevious and previousblockhash I think
 617 2012-02-22 17:02:41 <sipa> gavinandresen: just checked; getblock was not in 0.5.0
 618 2012-02-22 17:02:42 <luke-jr> I don't think getblock was in 0.5 at all?
 619 2012-02-22 17:02:57 <gavinandresen> It wasn't?  Great!  Then yes, rename.
 620 2012-02-22 17:03:18 <luke-jr> k
 621 2012-02-22 17:04:43 <sipa> luke-jr: you'll maybe want to merge with my getalltransactions?
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 623 2012-02-22 17:04:59 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: blockcount -> height too, to match your proposed getmemorypool change?
 624 2012-02-22 17:05:05 <luke-jr> sipa: what's that?
 625 2012-02-22 17:05:11 <sipa> luke-jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/841/files
 626 2012-02-22 17:05:26 <luke-jr> oh right
 627 2012-02-22 17:05:29 <luke-jr> that wasn't merged yet? :/
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 629 2012-02-22 17:06:49 <sipa> Technically not in scope for merging after a release candidate, but we've violated that already a few times :)
 630 2012-02-22 17:06:52 <luke-jr> Is GetSerializeSize slow or cheap?
 631 2012-02-22 17:08:27 <sipa> It goes through the same steps as Serialize, but doesn't write anythinh
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 633 2012-02-22 17:09:46 <luke-jr> I don't know how cheap/expensive Serialize is either :P
 634 2012-02-22 17:10:00 <luke-jr> is it acceptable to do it every getblock, to provide the 'size' field?
 635 2012-02-22 17:10:19 <gavinandresen> cheap. yes.
 636 2012-02-22 17:10:34 <sipa> You're going to deserialize the block anyway already, which is certainly a lot slower.
 637 2012-02-22 17:16:27 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: can getalltransactions be merged into master pretty please? <.<
 638 2012-02-22 17:16:45 <luke-jr> would make this fulldump mode *so* much simpler, and less redundant work
 639 2012-02-22 17:17:15 <luke-jr> sipa: I think it might be waiting for a reply to a comment Gavin made on the code
 640 2012-02-22 17:17:17 <sipa> it shouldn't; gavin just found a bug in it...
 641 2012-02-22 17:17:31 <luke-jr> ah, didn't notice that was 2 mins ago :D
 642 2012-02-22 17:17:41 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: do you know whats up with deepbit and bip16?
 643 2012-02-22 17:17:48 <luke-jr> maybe I'll do this in 2 steps then
 644 2012-02-22 17:18:12 <gavinandresen> I'd be happier about making an exception and squeezing it into 0.6rc2 if there was a test plan and somebody other than sipa had tested it thoroughly....
 645 2012-02-22 17:18:34 <gavinandresen> A pull to clean up getblock's naming is a good idea
 646 2012-02-22 17:19:21 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: (height in coinbase) would it break the auto-enforce rule, if miners start putting the height there without the enforcement code?
 647 2012-02-22 17:19:32 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: nope, I'm going to send tycho an email and ask what's up and what I/we can do to help.
 648 2012-02-22 17:20:04 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: kinda need that tomorrow if you want to make the march 1 target...
 649 2012-02-22 17:20:13 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: no, as long as they don't lie about the height that'd be fine.
 650 2012-02-22 17:22:28 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: we need to standardize on a base for 'height': is genesis 0 or 1?
 651 2012-02-22 17:22:59 <luke-jr> or is this one of sipa's "version king" things? :p
 652 2012-02-22 17:23:46 <gavinandresen> It is the number returned by getinfo
 653 2012-02-22 17:24:20 <gavinandresen> (that is, we already have a standard-- is there an inconsistency somewhere?)
 654 2012-02-22 17:24:33 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: various part of JSON-RPC report genesis==0 and others genesis==1
 655 2012-02-22 17:24:48 <luke-jr> I think getinfo blocks is genesis==1
 656 2012-02-22 17:25:07 <gavinandresen> I think that's right.  WHen genesis is the tip, there is 1 block in the chain.
 657 2012-02-22 17:25:44 <luke-jr> maybe the inconsistency is just internal then
 658 2012-02-22 17:25:48 <luke-jr> nHeight is 0-based
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 660 2012-02-22 17:27:25 <sipa> luke-jr: I'm reworking my pull request a bit to make it easier to pull out extra information
 661 2012-02-22 17:27:40 <luke-jr> sipa: a TransactionToJSON would be nice
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 663 2012-02-22 17:28:25 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so from now on, I can consider any case of genesis==0 to be a bug? ;)
 664 2012-02-22 17:29:14 <sipa> that makes getblockhash non-compliant
 665 2012-02-22 17:29:25 <sipa> (it uses genesis==0)
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 667 2012-02-22 17:31:05 <luke-jr> it does look like whoever wrote getblockhash knew it was 0-based… :/
 668 2012-02-22 17:31:36 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that was you. input?
 669 2012-02-22 17:31:37 <LittleDuke> damn coder's can't count to one ;)
 670 2012-02-22 17:32:23 <luke-jr> oh
 671 2012-02-22 17:32:32 <luke-jr> getinfo shows 0 by default after all -.-
 672 2012-02-22 17:32:33 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 885 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/885>
 673 2012-02-22 17:33:01 * luke-jr finds a block to make sure it goes to 1…
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 675 2012-02-22 17:35:05 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: can you do some testing inthe future before asking questions?  I just wasted a few minutes questioning myself because getinfo DOES report genesis==tip as blockcount 0
 676 2012-02-22 17:35:20 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: sorry
 677 2012-02-22 17:35:24 <luke-jr> I'll try
 678 2012-02-22 17:35:28 <gavinandresen> ty
 679 2012-02-22 17:35:46 <luke-jr> that pullreq is not suitable for merging now fwiw
 680 2012-02-22 17:35:49 <luke-jr> I need to fix this
 681 2012-02-22 17:37:36 <luke-jr> … longest testnet block ever -.-
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 683 2012-02-22 17:38:31 <sipa> I have to go now, I'll finish redoing getalltransactions later today.
 684 2012-02-22 17:38:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: thanks for the gitian fixes in advance.
 685 2012-02-22 17:39:46 <luke-jr> OK, pull 885 fixed
 686 2012-02-22 17:40:46 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: np
 687 2012-02-22 17:41:04 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: Im also doing debug symbol output, which should help a ton
 688 2012-02-22 17:41:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: awesome
 689 2012-02-22 17:42:01 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I want to add IsInMainChain to getblock output (in the pull planned after sipa's stuff); what should I call it? "main":bool ?
 690 2012-02-22 17:43:00 <sipa> luke-jr: depth?
 691 2012-02-22 17:43:23 <luke-jr> sipa: we already have height; this is just to differentiate orphans
 692 2012-02-22 17:43:38 <sipa> things outside the main chain have depth 0
 693 2012-02-22 17:44:08 <sipa> but just a boolean would be fine too
 694 2012-02-22 17:44:36 <gavinandresen> yes, orphans should have depth 0.  Extra credit might be the root of the orphan chain (as a hash)
 695 2012-02-22 17:44:57 <sipa> Ok, just added a GetTransaction to main that retrieves a transaction from either the memory pool or the block database, and tells you which blockindex it comes from
 696 2012-02-22 17:45:08 <sipa> That should simplify/clean things.
 697 2012-02-22 17:46:35 <luke-jr> "confirmations": number<depth>?
 698 2012-02-22 17:48:38 <luke-jr> sipa: does it get the wallet info too?
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 700 2012-02-22 17:49:53 <luke-jr> O.o
 701 2012-02-22 17:50:15 <luke-jr> CBlockIndex.IsInMainChain looks wrong to me.
 702 2012-02-22 17:50:30 <luke-jr>         return (pnext || this == pindexBest);
 703 2012-02-22 17:50:43 <luke-jr> won't that return true for the root of a multi-block orphan chain?
 704 2012-02-22 17:51:35 <luke-jr> I don't see anything clearing pnext when orphaning…
 705 2012-02-22 17:51:53 <luke-jr> ok, found it
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 720 2012-02-22 18:36:27 <luke-jr> [12:36:56] <sipa> Ok, just added a GetTransaction to main that retrieves a transaction from either the memory pool or the block database, and tells you which blockindex it comes from <-- where did you add this?
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 725 2012-02-22 18:40:16 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE5AcQsmcbg
 726 2012-02-22 18:40:33 <BlueMatt> since when does youtube offer ssl?
 727 2012-02-22 18:41:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Google's on a everything-must-be-SSL crusade
 728 2012-02-22 18:41:21 <BlueMatt> good, everything should be ssl
 729 2012-02-22 18:41:34 <luke-jr> meh, I don't want to waste CPU time serving non-sensitive data
 730 2012-02-22 18:42:04 <BlueMatt> its like 1 additional cpu microsecond
 731 2012-02-22 18:42:09 <luke-jr> …
 732 2012-02-22 18:42:21 <luke-jr> compared to kernel webserver?
 733 2012-02-22 18:42:23 <BlueMatt> when google switched (something, I dont remember what) to ssl, they published some stuff on how much cputime it actually took
 734 2012-02-22 18:42:30 <BlueMatt> it was next to nothing
 735 2012-02-22 18:42:43 <luke-jr> next to nothing *per connection*
 736 2012-02-22 18:42:48 <BlueMatt> Im pretty sure it mentioned they didnt even have to roll out new hardware
 737 2012-02-22 18:43:00 <luke-jr> anyhow, regular HTTP has a webserver in the Linux kernel that can just use DMA basically
 738 2012-02-22 18:43:04 <BlueMatt> oh, it was switching gmail or smth to ssl by default
 739 2012-02-22 18:43:36 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yea for static-only content
 740 2012-02-22 18:43:47 <luke-jr> right
 741 2012-02-22 18:43:55 <luke-jr> which most content really should be
 742 2012-02-22 18:44:04 <BlueMatt> ...
 743 2012-02-22 18:44:13 <BlueMatt> and yet most content isnt
 744 2012-02-22 18:44:14 <sipa> luke-jr: locally; i'll push it to the getalltransactions branch after reworking the rest
 745 2012-02-22 18:44:21 <luke-jr> sipa: ok
 746 2012-02-22 18:44:24 <BlueMatt> (it has at least some kind of access logging)
 747 2012-02-22 18:44:33 <BlueMatt> (tied to a session)
 748 2012-02-22 18:44:39 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: access logging doesn't mean it's non-static
 749 2012-02-22 18:45:00 <BlueMatt> no, but if you are tying it to a session in a backend db, you cant do it in a kernel webserver
 750 2012-02-22 18:45:24 <luke-jr> unless the kernel webserver has a call to userspace for logging :p
 751 2012-02-22 18:45:24 <BlueMatt> s/no/true/
 752 2012-02-22 18:45:28 <luke-jr> (I don't know if it does)
 753 2012-02-22 18:45:54 <luke-jr> oh well
 754 2012-02-22 18:45:57 <BlueMatt> meh, for sites where users dont even log in, alright non-ssl all the way...
 755 2012-02-22 18:46:10 <luke-jr> CPU time is at least cheaper than programmer/admin time, so this will probably never be simplified anyway
 756 2012-02-22 18:46:12 <BlueMatt> for sites where users log in, having it non-ssl by default is criminal negligence
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 760 2012-02-22 19:02:45 <helo> it would be nice in some areas of the world for wikipedia (non-login) to be ssl
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 763 2012-02-22 19:04:49 <BlueMatt> it would be nice in some areas in the world for all sites to be ssl
 764 2012-02-22 19:05:05 <gavinandresen> +1  everything should be ssl all the time
 765 2012-02-22 19:05:36 <gavinandresen> (but the certificate authority system needs a root canal)
 766 2012-02-22 19:07:27 <BlueMatt>  /nod
 767 2012-02-22 19:07:31 <luke-jr> too bad DNSSEC doesn't allow self-signed certs (or does it?)
 768 2012-02-22 19:08:07 <BlueMatt> doesnt it in the sense that you can have a cert that isnt signed by your upstream namservers?
 769 2012-02-22 19:08:21 <luke-jr> I mean on the HTTPS level
 770 2012-02-22 19:08:56 <BlueMatt> you mean dnssec-signing-https-cert
 771 2012-02-22 19:09:11 <luke-jr> yes
 772 2012-02-22 19:09:34 <BlueMatt> the problem with dnssec for end-user https is that it was never designed to provide end-user security, only security up to the dns resolver
 773 2012-02-22 19:09:53 <BlueMatt> so mitm attacks still apply (which is the point of using https)
 774 2012-02-22 19:10:29 <BlueMatt> (at least as far as I understand it)
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 776 2012-02-22 19:10:41 <luke-jr> AIUI, it's different O.o
 777 2012-02-22 19:11:17 <sipa> Is there a way to make git fetch --all reuse the same ssh connection to github?
 778 2012-02-22 19:12:19 <luke-jr> sipa: you can make SSH itself reuse connections
 779 2012-02-22 19:12:26 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: aiui, dnssec provides sigs from root to the dns name to the dns resolver, but if a client isnt doing the resolving, it still depends on what the resolver returns...
 780 2012-02-22 19:12:42 <BlueMatt> (or does the resolver return the entire trust chain from the root to the client?)
 781 2012-02-22 19:12:58 <denisx> sipa: google for "ssh ControlMaster"
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 783 2012-02-22 19:15:50 <sipa> luke-jr, denisx: oh wow; wish i knew that earlier
 784 2012-02-22 19:19:45 <denisx> I learned it some years ago when Xcode used svn alot
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 792 2012-02-22 19:29:55 <luke-jr> I wish the first SSH instance forked into the background…
 793 2012-02-22 19:30:02 <luke-jr> automatically
 794 2012-02-22 19:30:34 <sipa> luke-jr: there's an option to make it linger in the background after closing
 795 2012-02-22 19:33:03 <sipa> any suggestion for the number of vin/vout in dumptransaction?
 796 2012-02-22 19:33:12 <sipa> BBE uses vin_sz and vout_sz
 797 2012-02-22 19:33:28 <forrestv> sipa, are you dumping the list of txins/txouts too..?
 798 2012-02-22 19:33:33 <sipa> forrestv: yes
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 800 2012-02-22 19:33:40 <forrestv> then why provide the length at all?
 801 2012-02-22 19:33:51 <sipa> good question :)
 802 2012-02-22 19:33:53 <gavinandresen> yes, size is implicit in length of array....
 803 2012-02-22 19:34:07 <sipa> ACK: no separate parameter for that
 804 2012-02-22 19:34:29 <luke-jr> ^
 805 2012-02-22 19:39:45 <sipa> deserialize scripts or not?
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 808 2012-02-22 19:40:55 <jack_> does anyone know if the functionality described in this SE post is being worked on? http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1741/send-bitcoins-using-just-a-pub-and-private-key
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 810 2012-02-22 19:42:23 <jack_> I keep my private keys in paper (qr code) form. Currently it seems to send funds using those keys I have to import them permanently into a client...
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 812 2012-02-22 19:43:42 <jack_> What I really want is to scan the private key qr code only when publishing a send transaction... that way the only place my private keys are stored are on a piece of paper in my wallet (also encrypted of course)
 813 2012-02-22 19:44:09 <BlueMatt> he doesnt want to have the full chain, and spend with just pubkey/privkey combo
 814 2012-02-22 19:44:10 <BlueMatt> that is impossible without atleast a tx
 815 2012-02-22 19:44:26 <BlueMatt> to spend any standard tx you need txout sent to privkey, and the privkey
 816 2012-02-22 19:45:57 <jack_> what do you mean by "txout sent to privkey" ?
 817 2012-02-22 19:46:54 <sipa> jack_: bitcoin does not keep a balance per address
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 819 2012-02-22 19:47:09 <luke-jr> sipa: I think get* need 3 modes: hash(n/a for gettxn), hexdump, and deserialize
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 821 2012-02-22 19:47:28 <sipa> jack_: instead, each transaction consumes outputs created by previous transactions
 822 2012-02-22 19:47:40 <sipa> and those must be explicitly references
 823 2012-02-22 19:47:48 <BlueMatt_> jack_: the output of a transaction spent to the privkey you have
 824 2012-02-22 19:47:51 <luke-jr> sipa: otoh, then there's no way to say "deserialize txn, but hexdump scripts" :/
 825 2012-02-22 19:47:58 <BlueMatt_> and then you can only spend what was sent in that tx
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 827 2012-02-22 19:48:03 * luke-jr can see use cases for all of those
 828 2012-02-22 19:48:59 <jack_> oh, so each send transaction references all previous transactions for the sending address?
 829 2012-02-22 19:49:25 <BlueMatt> no
 830 2012-02-22 19:49:39 <BlueMatt> each transaction references the specific transaction its spending
 831 2012-02-22 19:49:50 <BlueMatt> bitcoin actually has no real concept of addresses
 832 2012-02-22 19:50:02 <gmaxwell> Think: Coins. You send coins to the network to be melted down, split and merged.
 833 2012-02-22 19:50:15 <jack_> what information does a published transaction consist of?
 834 2012-02-22 19:51:03 <BlueMatt> txin contains a pointer to the previous tx its spending, the info necessary to spend that tx (ie pubkey + signature), and a txout which has what info will be required to spend it
 835 2012-02-22 19:51:17 <jack_> my understanding was "amount to send", "address to send to", "address to send from", "signature from private key"
 836 2012-02-22 19:51:49 <BlueMatt> no, its amount to send, address to send to, signature from privkey, and the previous tx which we are spending
 837 2012-02-22 19:51:55 <BlueMatt> addresses dont have a balance, a tx does
 838 2012-02-22 19:52:01 <jack_> right right
 839 2012-02-22 19:52:09 <sipa> jack_: list of previous inputs to consume (including signatures that prove you own them), list of new outputs to create
 840 2012-02-22 19:52:21 <sipa> *previous outputs
 841 2012-02-22 19:52:59 <jack_> and the problem is the 'previous transaction' has to be taken from the blockchain?
 842 2012-02-22 19:53:08 <sipa> no, but you have to know it
 843 2012-02-22 19:53:30 <jack_> couldn't it be fetched from peers?
 844 2012-02-22 19:53:40 <sipa> no, you just know it
 845 2012-02-22 19:53:44 <sipa> it's like a wallet
 846 2012-02-22 19:53:48 <sipa> you know what coins are in there
 847 2012-02-22 19:54:08 <sipa> when you perform a transaction, you pick some from them, give some away, put some new ones back
 848 2012-02-22 19:54:26 <BlueMatt> there is no way to ask a peer for a list of txes to a given address, as it would make dos way too easy
 849 2012-02-22 19:54:55 <jack_> but if I have a wallet (pubkey) i can see the balance by using a public service like block explorer
 850 2012-02-22 19:55:21 <jack_> could I not use this information to create a send transaction along with my private key?
 851 2012-02-22 19:55:33 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 852 2012-02-22 19:55:40 <BlueMatt> yes, you could
 853 2012-02-22 19:55:48 <jack_> my understanding is that this is what StrongCoin tries to do..
 854 2012-02-22 19:56:01 <jack_> but they seem to be failing atm, sadly :/
 855 2012-02-22 19:56:20 Z0rZ0rZ0r has left ()
 856 2012-02-22 19:56:25 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
 857 2012-02-22 19:56:33 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ping
 858 2012-02-22 19:57:05 <jack_> do you understand my motives for wanting my private keys to not be stored electronically?
 859 2012-02-22 19:57:40 <jack_> or is bitcoin just not designed to be used in this way...
 860 2012-02-22 19:58:10 <BlueMatt> there are better ways to not store privkeys on a wallet server
 861 2012-02-22 19:58:24 graingert has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 862 2012-02-22 19:58:25 <jack_> how?
 863 2012-02-22 19:58:31 <BlueMatt> deterministic wallets
 864 2012-02-22 19:59:01 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 865 2012-02-22 19:59:09 <BlueMatt> jack_: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.0 see type 2
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 868 2012-02-22 19:59:37 <jack_> right, but then you have the same problem when trying to publish send transactions right?
 869 2012-02-22 20:00:07 <BlueMatt> ???
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 872 2012-02-22 20:00:18 coingenuity has joined
 873 2012-02-22 20:00:30 <jack_> one sec reading link
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 876 2012-02-22 20:04:59 <jack_> I don't see how this is any different from simply storing the public/private key on paper in relation to sending transactions
 877 2012-02-22 20:05:22 <luke-jr> anyone want to figure out projects to submit for GSoc?
 878 2012-02-22 20:05:46 <jack_> from the wiki i read: "private and public keys are all derived from a starting seed value"
 879 2012-02-22 20:06:20 <BlueMatt> jack_: maybe I dont understand what you want to do, but if your idea is to not store all the info that is required to send coins on a web-facing server, then deterministic keys solves your problem
 880 2012-02-22 20:06:54 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 881 2012-02-22 20:06:54 TD_ is now known as TD
 882 2012-02-22 20:07:37 <jack_> BlueMatt: I already avoid storing all the info required to send coins on a web facing server
 883 2012-02-22 20:07:57 <BlueMatt> jack_: so what are you trying to do?
 884 2012-02-22 20:08:18 <Graet> secure his electronic crypto currency by writing it on paper
 885 2012-02-22 20:08:46 <BlueMatt> I thought a. he already did that
 886 2012-02-22 20:08:50 <BlueMatt> and b. you can do that with det keys
 887 2012-02-22 20:09:04 <jack_> the trouble is, when it comes to the point where I have to send transactions. I have to do a full import. I don't want to do that. I just want to build a send transaction, sign it with my private key, and publish it to the network.
 888 2012-02-22 20:09:20 <BlueMatt> so use an encrypted wallet
 889 2012-02-22 20:09:40 <BlueMatt> it gets you the same result - info required to spend coins isnt available until send-time and then is no longer available directly thereafter
 890 2012-02-22 20:10:44 <jack_> yes, this is what i'm after - how do I do that?
 891 2012-02-22 20:10:51 sgstair has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 892 2012-02-22 20:11:09 <vegard> does the client detect attempts at double spending?
 893 2012-02-22 20:11:16 <BlueMatt> vegard: on
 894 2012-02-22 20:11:17 <BlueMatt> no
 895 2012-02-22 20:11:38 <luke-jr> vegard: it can't really
 896 2012-02-22 20:12:10 <Ferroh> sigh blockchain.info's json API doesn't work now...
 897 2012-02-22 20:12:13 <BlueMatt> jack_: see rpc commands like: encryptwallet, unlockwallet, etc
 898 2012-02-22 20:12:47 <jack_> BlueMatt: I thought "StrongCoin.com" would work, however, they seem to be having problems related to the rpc commands available
 899 2012-02-22 20:12:51 <vegard> well, if the client receives two transactions spending the same output, that would constitute a double spending attempt, no?
 900 2012-02-22 20:13:07 <BlueMatt> jack_: if you want security, depending on a 3rd party to hold your coins is kinda...wrong...
 901 2012-02-22 20:13:44 <jack_> exactly, that's why my private keys are encrypted qr codes in my wallet :)
 902 2012-02-22 20:15:08 <jack_> but if I want to send transactions from those accounts, I don't want to import them into a client and download the entire blockchain...
 903 2012-02-22 20:15:27 <jack_> I just want to publish the send transaction... understand?
 904 2012-02-22 20:16:09 <jack_> then I can track my accounts both on local clients and hosted clients just using the public keys
 905 2012-02-22 20:16:56 pingdrive has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 906 2012-02-22 20:17:08 <jack_> when I want to send bitcoins, I scan the qr code, decrypt the data, and sign the and send the transaction
 907 2012-02-22 20:17:24 <jack_> no need to store the private key on _any_ client, see?
 908 2012-02-22 20:17:44 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 910 2012-02-22 20:17:58 <jack_> this seems to be possible with how the bitcoin protocol works, but does not seem to be supported by any software
 911 2012-02-22 20:18:05 <jack_> unless I'm mistaken ??
 912 2012-02-22 20:18:51 <luke-jr> jack_: no, you're right
 913 2012-02-22 20:18:56 <luke-jr> jack_: would you like to implement this?
 914 2012-02-22 20:19:57 <jack_> Greatly :) I'm very new to bitcoin though
 915 2012-02-22 20:20:12 <jack_> also see this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45523.0
 916 2012-02-22 20:20:53 BlueMatt-mobile has joined
 917 2012-02-22 20:21:29 <jack_> the sweepprivkey proposal is kind of getting at what I want... but imo is flawed in that it would only allow the entire balance to be transferred, which doesn't really support my use case
 918 2012-02-22 20:21:44 <Graet> and the 3rd post...
 919 2012-02-22 20:22:52 <jack_> and see the 6th
 920 2012-02-22 20:23:07 <BlueMatt-mobile> jack_ i still see no reason for not having the peivatr keys vs just encrypting the wallet
 921 2012-02-22 20:23:14 <gmaxwell> jack_: bitcoin can only spend whole coins, if you spend less you send the change back to yourself.
 922 2012-02-22 20:23:59 <jack_> oh yeah... so sweepprivkey could be used for this use case?
 923 2012-02-22 20:24:16 <BlueMatt-mobile> (if you really want it printed, print the wallet passphrase and copy it in when you need it)
 924 2012-02-22 20:25:16 <BlueMatt-mobile> sweepprivkey imports the key...
 925 2012-02-22 20:25:16 <jrmithdobbs> jack_: ya that + importprivkey
 926 2012-02-22 20:25:32 <BlueMatt-mobile> (and sweeps when it sees new txea)
 927 2012-02-22 20:25:33 briggle has joined
 928 2012-02-22 20:25:35 <jrmithdobbs> jack_: the glue needed to make it all work is missing though
 929 2012-02-22 20:26:04 <BlueMatt-mobile> Or sends coins to your privkeys in your wallet...
 930 2012-02-22 20:26:32 <jack_> i'm going to post in a multi line quote from the thread i referenced... sorry in advance!
 931 2012-02-22 20:26:35 <BlueMatt-mobile> At which point you have lost the whole purpose
 932 2012-02-22 20:26:53 <jack_> "My understanding is that the only time a private key is needed is when a payment is made. To make it easy to sign payments on the client side it would be nice to have the following in bitcoin.
 933 2012-02-22 20:26:55 <jack_> 1. getinfoforpayment - retrieve everything from the block chain required for a payment. You specify the destination addresses and the source address.
 934 2012-02-22 20:26:57 <jack_> The client application then signs the information.
 935 2012-02-22 20:27:01 <jack_> 2. sendrawtransaction - bitcoin pushes the transaction out onto the network."
 936 2012-02-22 20:27:06 <luke-jr> I like the suggestion someone posted
 937 2012-02-22 20:27:42 <luke-jr> actually, I guess that suggestion wouldn't be viable (to just put the txn on the card)
 938 2012-02-22 20:27:43 <BlueMatt-mobile> Yea thats great for offline signing...
 939 2012-02-22 20:28:06 <luke-jr> BlueMatt-mobile: sweepprivkey doesn't import AFAIK, just scans for funds once then discards the key
 940 2012-02-22 20:28:20 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: ya you'd have to know who you were sending it to beforehand, though, that could (and i think has) be used for gift card like things
 941 2012-02-22 20:28:26 <BlueMatt-mobile> (Which would be a great feature, but if i grt what you want, wont help...)
 942 2012-02-22 20:28:42 <BlueMatt-mobile> luke-jr its up to the implementor.
 943 2012-02-22 20:28:43 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: more like Bitbills; you can't keep a balance
 944 2012-02-22 20:28:54 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: ya
 945 2012-02-22 20:28:58 <BlueMatt-mobile> jack_ s
 946 2012-02-22 20:29:00 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: bitbills is what it reminds me
 947 2012-02-22 20:29:02 <luke-jr> I favour the smartcard approach…
 948 2012-02-22 20:29:18 <ThomasV> jack_: sendrawtransaction == importtransaction ?
 949 2012-02-22 20:29:19 <luke-jr> plug it in, see the total, press a button to allow it
 950 2012-02-22 20:29:24 <BlueMatt-mobile> jack_ can you elaborate on exactly what you are trying to do...
 951 2012-02-22 20:30:27 * luke-jr ponders what the cost difference is between smartcard and bitbill
 952 2012-02-22 20:30:34 <luke-jr> otoh, smartcard *could* be reloaded…
 953 2012-02-22 20:30:35 <jack_> i have explained it a couple times... what don't you understand? (not being harsh just trying to understand what I should explain differently)
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 957 2012-02-22 20:31:18 <BlueMatt-mobile> So far ive heard you say "that may work" on a bunch of solutions with very different use cases...
 958 2012-02-22 20:31:19 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: hell a smartcard could store the entirety of the wallet with a bit of work
 959 2012-02-22 20:31:29 RazielZ has joined
 960 2012-02-22 20:31:31 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: well, that's my point
 961 2012-02-22 20:31:54 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: you only need to bring it online to refill it
 962 2012-02-22 20:32:24 briggle has joined
 963 2012-02-22 20:32:47 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: ya, makes me a bit uncomfortable for a couple reasons though
 964 2012-02-22 20:32:47 <ThomasV> luke-jr: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Smart_card_wallet
 965 2012-02-22 20:32:51 <luke-jr> and it never has to expose any of its privkeys
 966 2012-02-22 20:33:29 <luke-jr> ThomasV: I don't see what a keyboard is needed for. A single key would be enough I think?
 967 2012-02-22 20:33:36 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: the most relevant of which being that with widespread use it would lead to harder-to-protect-against attacks, eg, skimmers on readers at pos and such
 968 2012-02-22 20:33:45 <ThomasV> luke-jr: pincode?
 969 2012-02-22 20:34:11 BlueMatt has joined
 970 2012-02-22 20:34:15 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: i like the cc chip/pin cards that have pin entry on the physical card someone was showing off sometime this last year
 971 2012-02-22 20:34:46 <luke-jr> ThomasV: I guess that could be a more secure model :p
 972 2012-02-22 20:34:52 <luke-jr> I'm assuming possession = possession
 973 2012-02-22 20:34:58 <BlueMatt> jack_: the way I understand it, you are running a bitcoin-based merchant/site/whatever and want a more secure way of storing the coins
 974 2012-02-22 20:35:07 <BlueMatt> jack_: but you really havnt said what you are running
 975 2012-02-22 20:35:10 <ThomasV> http://www.nidsecurity.com/products/details-306.html
 976 2012-02-22 20:35:39 <sipa> luke-jr: no very-much-more-complete version of getalltransactions pushe
 977 2012-02-22 20:35:40 <sipa> d
 978 2012-02-22 20:35:44 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: yup those
 979 2012-02-22 20:35:57 <BlueMatt> jack_: you have said what you apparently think is the solution - being able to send with just privkey/pubkey pair, and that isnt possible, but you never said what the actual original problem is
 980 2012-02-22 20:36:11 <jack_> I have a piece of paper that I printed out that has two QR codes. One is the public key for an account, the second is the private key for the account. Currently, I can have coins sent to the account by giving people the public key. This works even though my account has never been "online" and never been "imported" into a client. I like this a lot because I am in sole complete possession of...
 981 2012-02-22 20:36:13 <jack_> ...my account. I can also use a wallet like strongcoin to track the balance on the public key, without ever sending them my private key. What I lack is the ability to send coins from the said account without importing the private key into a client.
 982 2012-02-22 20:36:26 phungi has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 983 2012-02-22 20:36:52 <BlueMatt> jack_: and why does an encrypted wallet not solve your problem?
 984 2012-02-22 20:36:52 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: he's asking for sign/import raw txn basically
 985 2012-02-22 20:36:57 BlueMatt-mobile has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 986 2012-02-22 20:37:05 <jrmithdobbs> well, sign/import/broadcast
 987 2012-02-22 20:37:06 <jack_> In my understanding of the bitcoin protcol, this is possible - but not supported by any existing software.
 988 2012-02-22 20:37:14 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yea, but at some point he has to have the privkey in a computer, at which point he may as well have it in an encrypted wallet...
 989 2012-02-22 20:37:30 <jack_> see post #6 of the following link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45523.0
 990 2012-02-22 20:37:30 <BlueMatt> unless he wants offline signing
 991 2012-02-22 20:37:39 <BlueMatt> (which he hasnt said, hence why Im asking for clarification)
 992 2012-02-22 20:37:40 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: he wants offline signing
 993 2012-02-22 20:37:43 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: and doesn't know it
 994 2012-02-22 20:37:50 <jrmithdobbs> basically, from what I can tell
 995 2012-02-22 20:38:01 <jack_> let me google offline signing...
 996 2012-02-22 20:38:20 <BlueMatt> offline signing would mean you can make the tx on a computer that has never been /is not connected to the internet
 997 2012-02-22 20:38:36 <jrmithdobbs> jack_: offline signing being: tell bitcoind to create a txn and export it, have either bitcoind or someother piece of software use the privkey to sign, then import back into bitcoin/bitcoind and broadcast the txn
 998 2012-02-22 20:38:38 <BlueMatt> and then copy the signed transaction to another bitcoin client on a computer that is on the internet
 999 2012-02-22 20:38:43 <ThomasV> jack_: Electrum can do it
1000 2012-02-22 20:38:44 <jrmithdobbs> jack_: that's what you're after, yes?
1001 2012-02-22 20:38:45 <BlueMatt> ie never have your privkey on a internet-connected machine
1002 2012-02-22 20:38:53 NxTitle is now known as Dontjoinitsatrap
1003 2012-02-22 20:39:04 Dontjoinitsatrap is now known as NxTitle
1004 2012-02-22 20:39:05 <jack_> close, but not exactly ;)
1005 2012-02-22 20:39:22 <jrmithdobbs> well, that functionality would give you all the tools to accomplish what you want, though, yes?
1006 2012-02-22 20:39:52 <luke-jr> sipa: no "hash" key on txns?
1007 2012-02-22 20:39:53 <jack_> I don't care if the transaction is signed on an internet connected machine.. I just don't want to import/store the key and download the blockchain.
1008 2012-02-22 20:39:53 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: and you wonder why I asked for clarification..."basically, from what I can tell" so you are ass-u-ming
1009 2012-02-22 20:40:02 <jack_> jrsmithdobbs yes it would
1010 2012-02-22 20:40:06 doublec has quit (Quit: Bye)
1011 2012-02-22 20:40:14 <BlueMatt> jack_: why cant it download the blockchain?
1012 2012-02-22 20:40:20 doublec has joined
1013 2012-02-22 20:40:21 <sipa> luke-jr: "txid"
1014 2012-02-22 20:40:25 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: not assuming, just verifying i understood him, looks like i did
1015 2012-02-22 20:40:29 <sipa> luke-jr: as gettransaction already had that
1016 2012-02-22 20:40:46 <jack_> BlueMatt: because that would involve storing the private key on the machine
1017 2012-02-22 20:40:51 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: uh, no..."I don't care if the transaction is signed on an internet connected machine" <-- ie he doesnt care if its offline signed or not...
1018 2012-02-22 20:40:55 <jrmithdobbs> jack_: no it wouldn't
1019 2012-02-22 20:41:08 <BlueMatt> jack_: you can download the chain on a fresh wallet that doesnt know anything about your privkeys
1020 2012-02-22 20:41:18 <BlueMatt> jack_: you can download the chain on a machine that only has your pubkeys
1021 2012-02-22 20:41:28 <BlueMatt> (or that doesnt even have that)
1022 2012-02-22 20:41:31 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: is the latter actually fixed now?
1023 2012-02-22 20:41:38 <jack_> ah ok.. let me further my use case - one sec
1024 2012-02-22 20:41:39 localhost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1025 2012-02-22 20:42:02 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: last i tried it got very nonplussed about not having the privkeys for pubkeys it had associated
1026 2012-02-22 20:42:11 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: well, ok you would have to do some hacking to do the latter - make an encrypted wallet with the pubkeys in it, but replace the privkeys with garbage
1027 2012-02-22 20:42:20 <BlueMatt> and just dont try to decrypt (as it will fail)
1028 2012-02-22 20:42:43 <luke-jr> sipa: TxToJSON doesn't have "txid"… o.o
1029 2012-02-22 20:42:56 <luke-jr> sipa: are the scripts disassembled?
1030 2012-02-22 20:43:04 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: thats probably something worth thinking about fixing, i've seen it brought up a few times
1031 2012-02-22 20:43:14 conman has joined
1032 2012-02-22 20:43:30 <jrmithdobbs> but it's not a quick fix
1033 2012-02-22 20:43:34 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: meh, it comes with type-2 det keys...
1034 2012-02-22 20:43:41 <BlueMatt> (which sipa has implemented)
1035 2012-02-22 20:43:45 <jack_> So given a piece of paper with my keys encoded as qr codes, I want to be able to open a bitcoin app on my android phone, scan the private key, and publish a transaction - then the android app instantly forgets my private key.
1036 2012-02-22 20:43:51 <sipa> luke-jr: gettransaction does; there is no overlap between TxToJSON and WalletTxToJSON, as they are called both called
1037 2012-02-22 20:44:02 <sipa> luke-jr: scripts are disassembled yes; coinbases aren't
1038 2012-02-22 20:44:41 <BlueMatt> jack_: and, again, why does an encrypted wallet not work?
1039 2012-02-22 20:44:43 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1040 2012-02-22 20:44:53 <luke-jr> sipa: perhaps 2 keys, one w/ disasm, and one w/ hex?
1041 2012-02-22 20:44:57 Clipse has joined
1042 2012-02-22 20:45:00 <BlueMatt> (it gets you the same result - the information required to spend your coins is available only briefly while you are sending)
1043 2012-02-22 20:45:13 <BlueMatt> aside from the printable part, its the same thing
1044 2012-02-22 20:45:16 <jack_> because I don't want my key stored on other devices
1045 2012-02-22 20:45:19 <BlueMatt> and if you want to print, you could do the glue yourself
1046 2012-02-22 20:45:21 localhost has joined
1047 2012-02-22 20:45:30 <jack_> i just want my key stored in one place
1048 2012-02-22 20:45:33 <BlueMatt> jack_: its encrypted, so its not accessible without the passphrase
1049 2012-02-22 20:45:40 <sipa> luke-jr: i'd argue for a separate dumptransaction call that gives a hexdump of a tx, with an accompanying(?) loadtransaction
1050 2012-02-22 20:45:51 phungus_ has joined
1051 2012-02-22 20:45:54 <BlueMatt> jack_: the unencrypted privkey never has to leave your computer (though it should for backup)
1052 2012-02-22 20:46:05 <jack_> unless the device is compromised either previously, or in the future
1053 2012-02-22 20:46:09 <BlueMatt> jack_: and you can make the passphrase only in one place, which has the same result
1054 2012-02-22 20:46:25 <BlueMatt> jack_: if your phone is compromised when you spend the coins you are fucked anyway
1055 2012-02-22 20:46:53 <jack_> it is the same as the StrongCoin usecase...
1056 2012-02-22 20:46:59 <BlueMatt> no matter how you do it, if your device is compromised at the time you spend the coins you are fucked
1057 2012-02-22 20:47:02 <jack_> did you read the post I referenced?
1058 2012-02-22 20:47:47 <jack_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45523.msg545080#msg545080
1059 2012-02-22 20:48:05 <BlueMatt> yes, but again, there is no functional difference (even if there is difference) between printed privkey and encrypted wallet
1060 2012-02-22 20:48:15 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: actually if it's compromised on spend he's fine
1061 2012-02-22 20:48:27 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: so long as the change addresses it's sending to weren't loaded
1062 2012-02-22 20:48:34 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: when you spend, you have to have the privkey unencrypted in memory, so you are fucked...period.
1063 2012-02-22 20:48:53 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: except that those coins will go to a new privkey not in memory immediately on spend
1064 2012-02-22 20:48:57 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: so the attacker just blocks your bitcoin client from sending your new tx, makes their own tx to them, and sends that instead
1065 2012-02-22 20:49:10 <luke-jr> sipa: that doesn't help if someone is accessing via getblock
1066 2012-02-22 20:49:15 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: if the attacker controls your computer to begin with, there is absolutely nothing you can do
1067 2012-02-22 20:49:18 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it'd require someone performing a successful double spend at the time you send your transaction
1068 2012-02-22 20:49:32 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: the double spend is only hard if the real tx goes out first
1069 2012-02-22 20:49:45 <sipa> luke-jr: solution: not make getblock include all transactions
1070 2012-02-22 20:49:47 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: but since this attacker controls your computer, its trivial to make sure his goes out first
1071 2012-02-22 20:49:53 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: yes through blocking your traffic or similar, it really does not sound like an attack worth modeling, even
1072 2012-02-22 20:49:54 <luke-jr> sipa: that doesn't solve it
1073 2012-02-22 20:50:03 <luke-jr> sipa: it just makes getblock mostly worthless
1074 2012-02-22 20:50:03 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: or, alternatively, just change the tx that you are creating to spend to him instead of to your real dest
1075 2012-02-22 20:50:06 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: except for extremely high value targets
1076 2012-02-22 20:50:19 <sipa> luke-jr: i have no problem doing an extra RPC lookup
1077 2012-02-22 20:50:28 <luke-jr> sipa: you don't seem to do RPC much?
1078 2012-02-22 20:50:35 <sipa> haha :)
1079 2012-02-22 20:50:40 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: look through bitcoin's memory, s/txouts/txout to attacker/
1080 2012-02-22 20:50:42 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: easy peasy
1081 2012-02-22 20:51:28 <luke-jr> sipa: new param for get*: {"transaction":"hex"/"full", "script":"hex"/"asm"}
1082 2012-02-22 20:51:33 <luke-jr> ?
1083 2012-02-22 20:51:45 <jack_> what is involved in importing a private key?
1084 2012-02-22 20:52:05 <BlueMatt> import, rescan chain to find that key's txes
1085 2012-02-22 20:52:23 <BlueMatt> add those txes to wallet
1086 2012-02-22 20:52:35 <BlueMatt> anyone have any ruby experience?
1087 2012-02-22 20:52:35 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: yes but you went from someone finding your keys when looking through their dumps a few days later to someone actively mitm'ing you from your own hardware, for most users what he's wanting is enough of an improvement to stop passive collection of privkeys
1088 2012-02-22 20:53:09 <jrmithdobbs> for high value targets like large merchants it'd be worth considering your point though, definitely
1089 2012-02-22 20:53:17 <luke-jr> sipa: hmm, the old dumpblock uses ToString too, but gave hex :/
1090 2012-02-22 20:53:26 <sipa> gave hex?
1091 2012-02-22 20:53:49 <jack_> wouldn't scanning the blockchain take a considerable amount of time?
1092 2012-02-22 20:54:05 <luke-jr> sipa: yes
1093 2012-02-22 20:54:08 <BlueMatt> jack_: its not that much time, but its a few seconds
1094 2012-02-22 20:54:10 <luke-jr>                     "scriptPubKey" : "0496b538e853519c726a2c91e61ec11600ae1390813a627c66fb8be7947be63c52da7589379515d4e0a604f8141781e62294721166bf621e73a82cbf2342c858ee OP_CHECKSIG"
1095 2012-02-22 20:54:12 <luke-jr> oh
1096 2012-02-22 20:54:14 <luke-jr> I guess that'
1097 2012-02-22 20:54:17 <luke-jr> 's disasm with data
1098 2012-02-22 20:54:41 <sipa> yes, pushes are disassembled as literals
1099 2012-02-22 20:55:22 <jack_> hmm so my use case and the one detailed in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45523.msg545080#msg545080 could be solved by having the client just import the key, scan the blockchain, publish the transaction, and then delete the key?
1100 2012-02-22 20:55:29 <ThomasV> jack_: not if you use libbitcoin or Electrum
1101 2012-02-22 20:55:36 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: ok, so if you arent concerned with active attacks and only care about key-stealing, how does printed key help? ok, you could import privkey, make a new key offline and print it, spend what you want, send everything else to the new key...but thats a _huge_ pita for each time you want to send coins...
1102 2012-02-22 20:55:50 <BlueMatt> jack_: no, because then the attacker has the privkey and can still steal your coins
1103 2012-02-22 20:56:02 <BlueMatt> you have to make a new key each time you spend for your case...
1104 2012-02-22 20:56:30 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it is a huge pita, agreed there
1105 2012-02-22 20:56:33 <BlueMatt> (and make sure no one ever uses your old key again, which can be very difficult depending on how you use your keys...)
1106 2012-02-22 20:56:50 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: but it's really only a pita right now because noone's automated it
1107 2012-02-22 20:57:02 <BlueMatt> it would still be a pita in many ways
1108 2012-02-22 20:57:07 <jack_> no - I want to keep the same keys :P
1109 2012-02-22 20:57:09 <BlueMatt> ie you could never publish a donation address
1110 2012-02-22 20:57:14 <jrmithdobbs> jack_: you shouldn't
1111 2012-02-22 20:57:17 <jrmithdobbs> jack_: that is bad
1112 2012-02-22 20:57:23 <sipa> luke-jr: how would gettransaction + transaction=hex interact with wallet transactions?
1113 2012-02-22 20:57:27 <jrmithdobbs> jack_: and antithetical to bitcoin's design
1114 2012-02-22 20:57:57 <BlueMatt> anyone have any clues why a ruby call to system!(...) would never return even if the command is clearly returning?
1115 2012-02-22 20:57:59 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: you really want a determinstic wallet instead of a static private key
1116 2012-02-22 20:58:03 <sipa> eh, jack_
1117 2012-02-22 20:58:13 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya, i think that's what he really wants
1118 2012-02-22 20:58:37 <luke-jr> sipa: I'm not thinking that would be applicable to gettxn
1119 2012-02-22 20:58:48 <jrmithdobbs> i could see a use for something like what he's suggesting though
1120 2012-02-22 20:59:03 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
1121 2012-02-22 20:59:04 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":4.54,"low":4.27,"avg":4.428592945,"vwap":4.433554307,"vol":83738,"last_all":4.52671,"last_local":4.52671,"last":4.52671,"buy":4.51,"sell":4.52671}}
1122 2012-02-22 20:59:11 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: what's the command?
1123 2012-02-22 20:59:16 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: gitian build
1124 2012-02-22 20:59:18 <jack_> oh deterministic wallets don't keep the same keys?
1125 2012-02-22 20:59:29 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: children of the process group not exited yet maybe?
1126 2012-02-22 20:59:33 <jrmithdobbs> jack_: no
1127 2012-02-22 20:59:45 <sipa> jack_: they are equivalent to an infinite list of keys, but generated using a single "formula" that is secret
1128 2012-02-22 20:59:55 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: in this case "on-target bash < var/build-script > var/build.log" with on-target being a command to ssh into a local vm and execute the command
1129 2012-02-22 20:59:56 <sipa> and the formula cannot be guessed by observing the used keys
1130 2012-02-22 21:00:12 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: and i deliberately put the last command in the bash script var/build-script to be exit 0
1131 2012-02-22 21:00:18 <jack_> ahhh
1132 2012-02-22 21:00:29 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: (and it exits fine when called from a regular bash shell)
1133 2012-02-22 21:00:29 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: try it again with set -x; and see what happens
1134 2012-02-22 21:00:40 <vegard> why are there a lot of transactions with very small pubkeys, like "1b01"?
1135 2012-02-22 21:00:55 <sipa> vegard: that is not a pubkey
1136 2012-02-22 21:01:14 <jack_> so how would once check the balance of a deterministic wallet?
1137 2012-02-22 21:01:26 <sipa> jack_: by using a client that supports them
1138 2012-02-22 21:01:32 <sipa> and scanning through the block chain
1139 2012-02-22 21:01:37 <sipa> (e.g. Armory)
1140 2012-02-22 21:02:21 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no, the only children it ever creates is /bin/sh...on-target and ssh -o...
1141 2012-02-22 21:02:31 <sipa> luke-jr: so, what output would you expect when gettransaction transaction=hex is applied to a wallet transaction?
1142 2012-02-22 21:02:32 <BlueMatt> (and both of those exit no problem)
1143 2012-02-22 21:02:47 <sipa> luke-jr: the same as if it were a non-wallet transaction?
1144 2012-02-22 21:02:48 <luke-jr> sipa: I'm not thinking that would be applicable to gettxn
1145 2012-02-22 21:02:54 jgarzik has joined
1146 2012-02-22 21:02:55 <sipa> Ah, ok.
1147 2012-02-22 21:03:08 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: what's strace say it's doing?
1148 2012-02-22 21:03:14 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
1149 2012-02-22 21:03:14 jgarzik has joined
1150 2012-02-22 21:03:33 <jack_> I just really like the idea of managing my wallet(s) completely offline, and only connecting to the network when absolutely necessary
1151 2012-02-22 21:04:29 <helo> the client really needs import/export transaction via file
1152 2012-02-22 21:04:48 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1153 2012-02-22 21:04:51 <helo> i suppose "send to file" and "send from file"
1154 2012-02-22 21:04:54 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: with the type2 wallet impl you did can you determine the pubkey series independently from the privkeys?
1155 2012-02-22 21:05:02 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: that's the point
1156 2012-02-22 21:05:13 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i couldn't remember if that was type2 or not ;p
1157 2012-02-22 21:05:25 <sipa> that's not implemented by the way, but it could be done
1158 2012-02-22 21:05:28 <sipa> Armory has it
1159 2012-02-22 21:05:30 <jrmithdobbs> ah
1160 2012-02-22 21:05:47 <helo> how is such a beast implemented?
1161 2012-02-22 21:05:57 MobiusL has joined
1162 2012-02-22 21:06:06 <ThomasV> sipa: Electrum had it before
1163 2012-02-22 21:06:21 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/b2a186f35d7c17bdc4a4b11edceb3ef137b25dd0
1164 2012-02-22 21:06:41 <sipa> ThomasV: Really? Didn't know that.
1165 2012-02-22 21:07:34 <sipa> ThomasV: You may be interested in a draft for a BIP about somewhat more complex deterministic wallets I'm working on: https://gist.github.com/1799467
1166 2012-02-22 21:07:36 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: strace shows nothing interesting...
1167 2012-02-22 21:08:13 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: what's it showing? is it sitting in a loop polling or did the waitpid() never return or something?
1168 2012-02-22 21:08:29 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: it returns normally like you would expect bash to return
1169 2012-02-22 21:08:45 <BlueMatt> rt_sigreturn(0)
1170 2012-02-22 21:08:47 jack_ has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 5.0.1/20110707182747])
1171 2012-02-22 21:08:50 <BlueMatt> exit_group(1)
1172 2012-02-22 21:09:03 <jrmithdobbs> right but the pid that launched that
1173 2012-02-22 21:09:13 <jrmithdobbs> you strace -f -F'ed right?
1174 2012-02-22 21:10:14 <BlueMatt> no, but now that I do, I see no pids except the one pid that bash launced...
1175 2012-02-22 21:10:29 Cablesaurus has joined
1176 2012-02-22 21:10:38 <BlueMatt> the 2 pids - bash + ssh
1177 2012-02-22 21:10:42 Cablesaurus has quit (Changing host)
1178 2012-02-22 21:10:42 Cablesaurus has joined
1179 2012-02-22 21:10:46 <BlueMatt> ssh returns, and detaches
1180 2012-02-22 21:10:48 <ThomasV> sipa: "Alan Reiner for the
1181 2012-02-22 21:10:48 <ThomasV> first implementation of a working determinstic wallet in Armory." : there were other implementatioins before: Electrum, BCCAPI
1182 2012-02-22 21:10:49 <BlueMatt> bash exits
1183 2012-02-22 21:10:57 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1184 2012-02-22 21:12:09 <sipa> ThomasV: I'll credit them too then, but as I didn't know about them, they didn't really influence the idea :)
1185 2012-02-22 21:12:21 <vegard> sipa: you are right, thanks.
1186 2012-02-22 21:12:45 <ThomasV> sipa: so the idea is that you derive a node from its parent
1187 2012-02-22 21:13:06 <sipa> ThomasV: indeed
1188 2012-02-22 21:13:14 <sipa> and use that to implement accounts
1189 2012-02-22 21:13:26 <ThomasV> sipa: but then you cannot have random access, can you?
1190 2012-02-22 21:13:32 <sipa> sure you do
1191 2012-02-22 21:13:46 <ThomasV> without replaying the sequence, I mean
1192 2012-02-22 21:13:47 <sipa> you can immediately generate the Nth subnode of a given parent
1193 2012-02-22 21:14:13 <sipa> the actual keys are all at depth 3 in the tree
1194 2012-02-22 21:15:46 phungus has quit (Disconnected by services)
1195 2012-02-22 21:15:52 phungus_ is now known as phungus
1196 2012-02-22 21:17:02 libcoin1 has joined
1197 2012-02-22 21:17:02 libcoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1198 2012-02-22 21:19:10 doublec has quit (Changing host)
1199 2012-02-22 21:19:10 doublec has joined
1200 2012-02-22 21:19:15 <ThomasV> sipa: http://ecdsa.org/2dwallet  (another random idea for deterministic wallets)
1201 2012-02-22 21:19:47 <ThomasV> quite simple, actually
1202 2012-02-22 21:21:56 <sipa> ThomasV: I'm kinda opposed to using the block chain for storing user information, actually
1203 2012-02-22 21:22:48 <sipa> Now, if you could integrate that with normal operation, as in, using the address in the secondary chain for example for change that would need to go to some address anyway, ...
1204 2012-02-22 21:23:05 marf_away has joined
1205 2012-02-22 21:23:58 molecular has joined
1206 2012-02-22 21:24:10 <sipa> ThomasV: reading further on that site, you may wish to know that bitcoin addresses can be derived from a 'signmessage' signature
1207 2012-02-22 21:24:20 <sipa> though the API does not expose this
1208 2012-02-22 21:24:22 <ThomasV> sipa: I know
1209 2012-02-22 21:24:47 <ThomasV> I implemented verifymessage
1210 2012-02-22 21:25:17 <sipa> Oh, indeed, I remember.
1211 2012-02-22 21:26:06 <ThomasV> I understand you don't like using tx to store information, but I see no other alternatives
1212 2012-02-22 21:26:23 <sipa> I doubt it's a problem in reality.
1213 2012-02-22 21:26:24 <ThomasV> unless the ban on nonstandard tx is lifted
1214 2012-02-22 21:27:26 <sipa> How would that help>
1215 2012-02-22 21:27:27 <sipa> ?
1216 2012-02-22 21:27:39 <helo> is there an explanation of type2 addresses (how pubkeys are generated without privkeys) online?
1217 2012-02-22 21:28:00 <sipa> helo: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
1218 2012-02-22 21:28:07 <sipa> that's the original post that introduced them
1219 2012-02-22 21:28:11 <helo> thanks
1220 2012-02-22 21:28:22 <sipa> the actually implemented algorithms are somewhat different, but the idea is the same
1221 2012-02-22 21:28:42 <sipa> helo: oh sorry, that's type-2 determinstic wallets
1222 2012-02-22 21:28:50 <ThomasV> sipa: with nonstandard tx you can actually store data
1223 2012-02-22 21:29:04 <sipa> ThomasV: that's a very good reason for not lifting the ban, then
1224 2012-02-22 21:29:14 <ThomasV> heh
1225 2012-02-22 21:29:29 <ThomasV> my point is that you cannot avoid it
1226 2012-02-22 21:29:45 <sipa> probably not; but i certainly don't want to encourage it
1227 2012-02-22 21:29:59 <RedEmerald> put it in another alt-chain :p
1228 2012-02-22 21:30:25 <ThomasV> RedEmerald: namecoin
1229 2012-02-22 21:30:31 phungi has joined
1230 2012-02-22 21:31:14 <RedEmerald> that would work. i'm not sure if it actually makes the wallet recovery process simpler tho. and isn't that the point?
1231 2012-02-22 21:31:23 <ThomasV> RedEmerald: I am working on such a project; storing bitcoin aliases in the namecoin blockchain
1232 2012-02-22 21:31:41 <ThomasV> but for wallet recovery, no, it does not make sense
1233 2012-02-22 21:31:59 <sipa> I'm not sure the gap problem is really a problem.
1234 2012-02-22 21:32:14 <ThomasV> sipa: why not?
1235 2012-02-22 21:32:25 <sipa> Use a reasonable default, and when recovering, if the user notices that things are missing, try a longer gap.
1236 2012-02-22 21:32:44 <ThomasV> that assumes the user can notice
1237 2012-02-22 21:33:05 <ThomasV> how about the user inherits a wallet from someone else?
1238 2012-02-22 21:34:12 <sipa> In fact, the client could warn the user in advance, when he's creating the Nth address in a row that has not yet received any transactions.
1239 2012-02-22 21:34:46 <ThomasV> the first version used to do that
1240 2012-02-22 21:35:02 <ThomasV> but it's too complicated for nongeeks
1241 2012-02-22 21:35:52 <gmaxwell> I think you may be over thinking this— recovering in this way is an emergency operation— you should still use a normal backup to handle metadata
1242 2012-02-22 21:36:10 <ThomasV> oh no..
1243 2012-02-22 21:36:25 <ThomasV> I have no backup except in my brain
1244 2012-02-22 21:36:53 <gmaxwell> Well. That sounds like a bad policy— it limits functionality— you don't have the abillity to store comments on txn?
1245 2012-02-22 21:37:13 <gmaxwell> I think its OKAY if a omg-emergecy recovery loses (temporarily) some future funds under weird spending patterns which can still be recovered if the user notices and cares.
1246 2012-02-22 21:37:30 <sipa> luke-jr: I wonder if there's any useful thing to report based on CBlockIndex's bnChainWork
1247 2012-02-22 21:37:38 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I do this only for my savings wallet
1248 2012-02-22 21:37:50 <ThomasV> not for the one I use everyday
1249 2012-02-22 21:37:56 <luke-jr> sipa: what's that?
1250 2012-02-22 21:38:15 <sipa> luke-jr: running sum of estimated number of hashes performed in the chain up to that block
1251 2012-02-22 21:38:31 <luke-jr> hmm
1252 2012-02-22 21:38:54 <sipa> It's one of the coolest statistics imho; "The current bitcoin blockchain has over 2*10^20 hashes in it!"
1253 2012-02-22 21:39:07 <luke-jr> sounds like asking for Number problems
1254 2012-02-22 21:39:08 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1255 2012-02-22 21:40:02 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: do those nidsecurity guys actually sell like single units of those otp things?
1256 2012-02-22 21:40:30 <ThomasV> jrmithdobbs: I think they sell development kits
1257 2012-02-22 21:40:49 barmstrong has joined
1258 2012-02-22 21:45:38 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: actually, there's a user who only accesses his wallet through the recovery procedure and BitSafe. nothing gets ever written to disk
1259 2012-02-22 21:45:53 <sipa> fun fact: the bitcoin network surpassed 2^64 hashes around block 131188
1260 2012-02-22 21:46:40 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: bleh, the rfid is mifare
1261 2012-02-22 21:46:54 erle- has joined
1262 2012-02-22 21:47:04 <ThomasV> jrmithdobbs: link?
1263 2012-02-22 21:47:12 <sipa> Currently it's at 2^67.72
1264 2012-02-22 21:47:24 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: it's on the link you gave me earlier near the bottom
1265 2012-02-22 21:47:39 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: or in the faq near the bottom
1266 2012-02-22 21:48:05 <ThomasV> i see
1267 2012-02-22 21:48:10 <jrmithdobbs> oh, they do emv too, ok
1268 2012-02-22 21:48:29 <sipa> That's enough to have tried all alphanumeric passwords of length up to 11
1269 2012-02-22 21:51:01 <sipa> luke-jr: why would it ask for number problems?
1270 2012-02-22 21:51:31 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: seriously can't find anywhere to find small batch pricing
1271 2012-02-22 21:51:37 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: hate when vendors make me call people
1272 2012-02-22 21:51:59 <ThomasV> heh
1273 2012-02-22 21:58:30 phantomfakeBNC has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1274 2012-02-22 21:59:57 <gavinandresen> Apropos of nothing:  I hope the DIANNA "namecoin done right" project works out:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64279.0
1275 2012-02-22 22:00:48 <ThomasV> is it really better than namecoin?
1276 2012-02-22 22:01:15 phantomfakeBNC has joined
1277 2012-02-22 22:01:18 <jrmithdobbs> there details posted on a webpage that actually works?
1278 2012-02-22 22:01:19 <jrmithdobbs> heh
1279 2012-02-22 22:01:21 <gavinandresen> we'll see... still lots of details to be worked out, but pent is excited about the idea of having it do ONLY the DNS part, not the "is a currency" functionality
1280 2012-02-22 22:01:25 phantomfakeBNC has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1281 2012-02-22 22:02:01 <ThomasV> bitcointalk is down for me
1282 2012-02-22 22:02:13 <jrmithdobbs> same
1283 2012-02-22 22:02:21 <gavinandresen> up for me
1284 2012-02-22 22:02:24 <ThomasV> but not mtgox!!!
1285 2012-02-22 22:02:46 <Joric> whoa volatility
1286 2012-02-22 22:02:48 <jrmithdobbs> i'm sure we're just caught in random overapplied nullroute to avoid ddos #976079816243786
1287 2012-02-22 22:02:56 <jrmithdobbs> heh
1288 2012-02-22 22:03:18 pusle has quit ()
1289 2012-02-22 22:03:30 archo43 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1290 2012-02-22 22:03:41 <ThomasV> for what I remember from that thread, pent's ideas were a bit volatile
1291 2012-02-22 22:03:42 <gavinandresen> dianna website is http://dianna-project.org/   but recent discussion is in that thread on the forums
1292 2012-02-22 22:04:43 <ThomasV> oh I can read bitcointalk again
1293 2012-02-22 22:04:56 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, pretty much
1294 2012-02-22 22:05:17 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i think one of his nullroutes is blocking tw cable in the entire austin area
1295 2012-02-22 22:05:20 <jrmithdobbs> haha
1296 2012-02-22 22:05:26 <jrmithdobbs> quality
1297 2012-02-22 22:05:28 <phantomcircuit> he isn't setting the nullroutes
1298 2012-02-22 22:05:30 <phantomcircuit> the dc is
1299 2012-02-22 22:05:32 <jrmithdobbs> i know
1300 2012-02-22 22:05:35 <phantomcircuit> that's the problem
1301 2012-02-22 22:05:42 <luke-jr> sipa: because JSON sucks
1302 2012-02-22 22:05:57 <phantomcircuit> null routing isn't even a solution
1303 2012-02-22 22:06:17 <phantomcircuit> at best it just moves the problem one step further away
1304 2012-02-22 22:06:20 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: not even if the logic is written in php? i hear that's powerful stuff.
1305 2012-02-22 22:06:29 <phantomcircuit> lol
1306 2012-02-22 22:06:41 <phantomcircuit> the real solution is to have a ton of bw and filter stuff yourself
1307 2012-02-22 22:06:43 <phantomcircuit> but meh
1308 2012-02-22 22:07:06 <sipa> luke-jr: I'd just encode it as a floating-point number
1309 2012-02-22 22:07:18 <sipa> it's not useful to be exact
1310 2012-02-22 22:07:19 <luke-jr> sipa: JSON doesn't have floating-point.
1311 2012-02-22 22:07:24 <luke-jr> it has Number. that's all
1312 2012-02-22 22:07:34 <luke-jr> and it makes no guarantees of precision of Number period
1313 2012-02-22 22:07:43 <sipa> i know
1314 2012-02-22 22:08:02 JRWR has quit (Quit: BTC Welcome: 19QtYzmENUmqRhvjEvHsz785rqZ5RRcZG4)
1315 2012-02-22 22:08:25 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, still think it's funny he's a ddos magnet
1316 2012-02-22 22:08:35 <sipa> but as it's not useful to be exact, i don't care about its precision; if a client library only supports 5 bits of precision, that's the problem of the person who chose to use that library
1317 2012-02-22 22:08:39 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1318 2012-02-22 22:08:45 <phantomcircuit> especially since they're so incompetent at it
1319 2012-02-22 22:08:51 <phantomcircuit> oh ffs
1320 2012-02-22 22:08:59 <gavinandresen> "guarantees" ...  just write a standard document and specify that Thou Shalt Support something and that'll make it so ... (not)
1321 2012-02-22 22:09:01 <phantomcircuit> stupid lloyds
1322 2012-02-22 22:09:32 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: on a cursory look that solves most of the "wtf" of namecoin minus resolver issues
1323 2012-02-22 22:10:12 <phantomcircuit> search filter: 22/2/2012-22/2/2012, 0.01-100.00; afaikt this results in searching our entire records for transfers between 0.01-100.00 GBP and then filtering the result by date
1324 2012-02-22 22:10:15 <phantomcircuit> epic facepalm
1325 2012-02-22 22:12:15 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: this is definitely much better thought out than namecoin
1326 2012-02-22 22:12:24 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: gets rid of the irrelevent data/spam
1327 2012-02-22 22:12:25 <luke-jr> sipa: would it make sense to divide total-hashes by the current difficulty (and diff 1) to give clients a fighting chance of parsing it? :P
1328 2012-02-22 22:13:41 <luke-jr> sipa: back to gettransaction… I'm implementing a "obj" decomposition, which tells you nRequired, addresses, and type; should it also include "asm" and/or "hex", or maybe just for type="unknown" ?
1329 2012-02-22 22:14:05 <sipa> nRequired? addresses? type?
1330 2012-02-22 22:14:16 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: not sure why there's a DHT on top of it.. is it like the cherry on the cake, or really fundamental to the design?
1331 2012-02-22 22:14:25 <luke-jr> sipa: yes, for pubkey at least
1332 2012-02-22 22:14:32 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: the dht makes resolvers possible
1333 2012-02-22 22:14:54 graingert has joined
1334 2012-02-22 22:14:55 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: are they just resolvers with lame DHT security properties?
1335 2012-02-22 22:14:55 <ThomasV> how so?
1336 2012-02-22 22:14:55 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: solving the "why the fuck would i want the entire history of the naming system on the internet cached on my resolver just to look at porn?!" problem
1337 2012-02-22 22:15:22 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: or do they do the connect-to-the chain bit and they're just used as caches for the connecting assist?
1338 2012-02-22 22:15:42 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no, your local dnscache (basically) is a thin client that just has to have the headers to verify responses from dht are valid
1339 2012-02-22 22:15:49 <sipa> actually, that is a useful number for transactions: the number of hashes in the blockchain's tip minus that of the transaction's block, divided by the current difficulty
1340 2012-02-22 22:15:49 <gmaxwell> sweet.
1341 2012-02-22 22:16:01 <jrmithdobbs> this actually looks very workable. and I called namecoin bullshit within like 10 min
1342 2012-02-22 22:16:04 <jrmithdobbs> heh
1343 2012-02-22 22:16:11 <sipa> that's a measure for how many blocks' time it would take for the current network to revert your transaction
1344 2012-02-22 22:16:16 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: good work. I don't tell you that enough. ;p
1345 2012-02-22 22:16:42 <luke-jr> "Block Chain becomes dependent on parent (Bitcoin) block chain" is not true of MM…
1346 2012-02-22 22:16:47 CRichard has joined
1347 2012-02-22 22:17:11 <luke-jr> "Intrusion into block hashing algo" isn't really true, if MM is required ;)
1348 2012-02-22 22:17:15 <BlueMatt> sipa gavinandresen luke-jr: can I get some builds of deps-win32 using https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/0d24dc110848cdc2d75714a0b58e4178b2419fa2 and  see if you get 4a94b0c8aa1daabc76d75cae45de819bf9f2e14a1496062eafd695925e923e7f for bitcoin-deps-0.0.3.zip?
1349 2012-02-22 22:17:17 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: not generally— it can be if some merged thing is designed to do so.
1350 2012-02-22 22:17:20 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: the only objection i had to namecoin this hasn't solved is the actual resolver implementation, but the semantics to make it possible were actually considered this time around. very cool.
1351 2012-02-22 22:17:26 <BlueMatt> (or anyone else who can gitian build)
1352 2012-02-22 22:17:31 <luke-jr> what forum thread should I posting this all on?
1353 2012-02-22 22:17:46 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I already informed you that it's impossible to pull commits :P
1354 2012-02-22 22:17:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: that one is in a branch, so you can...
1355 2012-02-22 22:18:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: "deps-win32" ?
1356 2012-02-22 22:18:03 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: what does this do about the tragity of the commons problem namecoin now has with people buying all of /usr/dict/words before the system becomes popular?
1357 2012-02-22 22:18:03 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: but anyway, check branch debug
1358 2012-02-22 22:18:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: what branch name?
1359 2012-02-22 22:18:25 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: they cost bitcoins.
1360 2012-02-22 22:18:30 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it's not separate currency.
1361 2012-02-22 22:18:31 <BlueMatt> sipa: luke-jr split off all the remaining win32 dependencies of bitcoin into a second script, that commit should make it deterministic
1362 2012-02-22 22:18:51 <luke-jr> sipa: this way we don't have to recompile deps every change to bitcoin
1363 2012-02-22 22:18:51 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well namecoin names cost too— but the mandatory prices went down far too fast.
1364 2012-02-22 22:19:10 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: so not a whole lot that I can tell, but i've not read through all of it
1365 2012-02-22 22:19:16 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: you can now get a few thousand names per BTC or so, so people are claimgrabbing now.
1366 2012-02-22 22:19:20 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: then again, same thing happened with dns
1367 2012-02-22 22:19:26 <jrmithdobbs> is that really worth solving?
1368 2012-02-22 22:19:55 <ThomasV> jrmithdobbs: what incentive do the nodes to be part  of the DHT?
1369 2012-02-22 22:20:02 <luke-jr> domain pricing really needs to be auction-like to be automatic IMO
1370 2012-02-22 22:20:04 <ThomasV> *have*
1371 2012-02-22 22:20:21 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: good question.
1372 2012-02-22 22:20:21 wladston has joined
1373 2012-02-22 22:20:42 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: being super cheap to do is often enough— making their own queries fast by having a nearby fast and fresh cache is probably enough.
1374 2012-02-22 22:20:49 <wladston> could anyone give me testnet bitcoins ? the faucet is down :(
1375 2012-02-22 22:20:54 asuk has joined
1376 2012-02-22 22:21:10 <BlueMatt> register domains using pow :)
1377 2012-02-22 22:21:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: looks like gavin commented to that here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64279.msg761820#msg761820
1378 2012-02-22 22:21:26 <doublec> I haven't read the dianna paper in detail but pent was keen on registration fees going to miners - doesn't that mean miners effectively get names for free?
1379 2012-02-22 22:22:10 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1380 2012-02-22 22:22:21 <jrmithdobbs> my main questions are what gmaxwell asked and how initial network bootstrapping would work since you can't really use dns seeding here
1381 2012-02-22 22:23:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: for any commit in a branch: git fetch me; git checkout commit works fine
1382 2012-02-22 22:23:22 CRichard has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1383 2012-02-22 22:23:39 dwon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1384 2012-02-22 22:23:51 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1385 2012-02-22 22:23:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: ok, so what steps do i take?
1386 2012-02-22 22:24:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: should be just git checkout TheBlueMatt/debug; cd ../gitian-builder; ./bin/gbuild ../bitcoin/contrib/gitian-descriptors/deps-win32.yml
1387 2012-02-22 22:24:48 <BlueMatt> (with optional -jX and -mY for gbuild)
1388 2012-02-22 22:24:57 JRWR has joined
1389 2012-02-22 22:27:57 dwon has joined
1390 2012-02-22 22:29:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: actually, even the bootstrapping isn't a huge deal and could be performed with a small set of anycast 'root', it'd still be better than current dns root since each anycast'ed ip could be controlled by a group (much like the current root) but are restricted from interfering with the data unlike the current dns root
1391 2012-02-22 22:30:39 <jrmithdobbs> and since '.' will actually be completely hosted on all dht/storage nodes it'd be the 'root' only for the purposes of establishing itself and clients/resolvers wouldn't ever need to know anything except their local cache node just like with current dns
1392 2012-02-22 22:33:11 b4epoche_ has joined
1393 2012-02-22 22:34:01 <wladston> could anyone give me testnet bitcoins ? the faucet is down :(
1394 2012-02-22 22:34:03 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1395 2012-02-22 22:34:03 luke-jr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1396 2012-02-22 22:34:03 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
1397 2012-02-22 22:34:31 <gavinandresen> wladston: I can (and I'm working on getting the testnet faucet back up)
1398 2012-02-22 22:34:50 <gavinandresen> wladston: send me a testnet address and I'll send you some
1399 2012-02-22 22:35:06 luke-jr has joined
1400 2012-02-22 22:35:47 <wladston> gavinandresen: oh, that's great :) here is my address n2mr7FtttWX9kPd2415sNLoj7qhVpikkAn
1401 2012-02-22 22:36:18 <kinlo> oh, so many testnet coins
1402 2012-02-22 22:37:27 <kinlo> wladston: I've sent you 100 coins in transaction 34c31922d96ba510263edd40be621eebe6ee1e1a5e7668c843c73cf08ab80839 :)
1403 2012-02-22 22:37:49 <kinlo> should get you going
1404 2012-02-22 22:37:59 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1405 2012-02-22 22:39:17 <wladston> kinlo: wow, thanks :) I just needed a few to test my system here :)
1406 2012-02-22 22:39:36 <wladston> kinlo: I'll give then to the faucet once I'm done, okay ?
1407 2012-02-22 22:39:39 <kinlo> well, I've been testing pool software, so I needed to find blocks
1408 2012-02-22 22:39:43 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1409 2012-02-22 22:39:44 <kinlo> I've got plenty more
1410 2012-02-22 22:39:56 <kinlo> and they need to remain worthless so it doesn't matter
1411 2012-02-22 22:40:04 <wladston> yeah
1412 2012-02-22 22:44:00 ThomasV has joined
1413 2012-02-22 22:45:45 <sipa>  BlueMatt does it need any -m option?
1414 2012-02-22 22:46:08 <BlueMatt> sipa: no, that is memory for the vm, and -j is procs for the vm (and used in many make calls)
1415 2012-02-22 22:46:20 <sipa> I know, but are they necessary?
1416 2012-02-22 22:46:21 <BlueMatt> I dont remember what the default memory is, but you should be able to do at least -j2 on it
1417 2012-02-22 22:46:25 <BlueMatt> no, they are optional
1418 2012-02-22 22:46:26 <sipa> Read: does the default suffice
1419 2012-02-22 22:46:29 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1420 2012-02-22 22:46:30 <BlueMatt> yes
1421 2012-02-22 22:47:01 <sipa> where to download the inputs?
1422 2012-02-22 22:47:10 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1423 2012-02-22 22:47:35 <BlueMatt> those are all from upstream sources, there is probably a list of links in doc/release-process.txt (IIRC)
1424 2012-02-22 22:47:56 Ahimoth has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1425 2012-02-22 22:48:26 <sipa> Oh, good.
1426 2012-02-22 22:49:34 <sipa> libpng is not found
1427 2012-02-22 22:52:00 Ahimoth has joined
1428 2012-02-22 22:52:31 <sipa> ftp://ftp.simplesystems.org/pub/libpng/png/src/history/libpng-1.5.8.tar.gz works
1429 2012-02-22 22:53:01 <BlueMatt> oh, damn, theyve already moved on to 1.5.9 (with sec vulns in 1.5.8), just s/1.5.8/1.5.9/
1430 2012-02-22 22:53:28 <sipa> Won't that change the build?
1431 2012-02-22 22:53:46 <BlueMatt> yea
1432 2012-02-22 22:54:15 <sipa> I'll try building with 1.5.8 now, just to check
1433 2012-02-22 22:55:09 <BlueMatt> ok, thats fine too, but I also just pushed a new version with 1.5.9
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1435 2012-02-22 22:56:51 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 886 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/886>
1436 2012-02-22 22:57:23 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1437 2012-02-22 22:57:45 NxTitle is now known as AhimothMobile
1438 2012-02-22 22:58:06 AhimothMobile is now known as NxTitle
1439 2012-02-22 22:58:40 <luke-jr> sipa: ^
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1441 2012-02-22 22:59:32 <BlueMatt> if you have to have a treaty you are about to sign reviewed by your high court because you arent sure if it is legal, you probably shouldnt be considering it in the first place...
1442 2012-02-22 22:59:34 <BlueMatt> (ACTA)
1443 2012-02-22 23:00:05 Ahimoth_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1444 2012-02-22 23:05:01 Ahimoth has joined
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1447 2012-02-22 23:07:05 <sipa> BlueMatt:
1448 2012-02-22 23:07:06 <sipa> make: warning:  Clock skew detected.  Your build may be incomplete.
1449 2012-02-22 23:07:06 <sipa> configure: WARNING: If you wanted to set the --build type, don't use --host. If a cross compiler is detected then cross compile mode will be used.
1450 2012-02-22 23:07:19 <sipa> (not sure if it's relevant or a problem)
1451 2012-02-22 23:07:23 <sipa> luke-jr: it looks... extensive
1452 2012-02-22 23:07:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: should be fine (ive never seen a problem because of it...)
1453 2012-02-22 23:08:52 <sipa> luke-jr: the obj decomposition of transactions may be a bit over-the-top
1454 2012-02-22 23:09:09 Ahimoth has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1457 2012-02-22 23:13:36 Ahimoth has joined
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1462 2012-02-22 23:19:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: find: paths must precede expression: name
1463 2012-02-22 23:19:00 <sipa> Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [-Olevel] [-D help|tree|search|stat|rates|opt|exec] [path...] [expression]
1464 2012-02-22 23:19:21 <sipa> d79c63077c7d9d975ff29847d5a28ef46ef475b9a80abce7fe03954bc5705895  bitcoin-deps-0.0.3.zip
1465 2012-02-22 23:19:26 <BlueMatt> sipa: huh? that bug was fixed hours and hours ago...
1466 2012-02-22 23:19:46 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1467 2012-02-22 23:19:53 <sipa> BlueMatt: apparently I didn't re-fetch
1468 2012-02-22 23:19:55 <Diablo-D3> forget to push fix?
1469 2012-02-22 23:19:56 <sipa> stupid me
1470 2012-02-22 23:19:56 <Diablo-D3> or that
1471 2012-02-22 23:20:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: use the 1.5.9 version if you are going to refetch
1472 2012-02-22 23:21:37 Karmaon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1473 2012-02-22 23:22:33 <sipa> BlueMatt: ok, building
1474 2012-02-22 23:22:44 <BlueMatt> thanks
1475 2012-02-22 23:23:33 <sipa> are qt-win32 and boost-win32 obsolete now?
1476 2012-02-22 23:23:46 <BlueMatt> no, those are still required separately
1477 2012-02-22 23:23:54 <BlueMatt> (working on making those deterministic as well...)
1478 2012-02-22 23:28:23 GMP has joined
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1480 2012-02-22 23:29:33 Someguy123[afk] is now known as Someguy123
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1484 2012-02-22 23:33:30 Ahimoth has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1485 2012-02-22 23:34:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: hmm...libpng 1.5.9 is causing problems linking for me...
1486 2012-02-22 23:34:42 asuk has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1487 2012-02-22 23:35:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: there was a thread about this on fedora-devel two months back or so
1488 2012-02-22 23:35:37 <gmaxwell> there are two 'current' versions of libpng or something like that, new and old api.
1489 2012-02-22 23:35:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: cannot find -lc?
1490 2012-02-22 23:36:15 gp5st has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1491 2012-02-22 23:36:19 Ahimoth has joined
1492 2012-02-22 23:36:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: same here
1493 2012-02-22 23:36:55 <sipa> indeed, cannot find -lc
1494 2012-02-22 23:37:11 <sipa> At least we have deterministic failure!
1495 2012-02-22 23:37:46 <BlueMatt> yay!
1496 2012-02-22 23:38:19 <sipa> Will you revert to 1.5.8?
1497 2012-02-22 23:38:36 <BlueMatt> no, there is a security issue there, it shouldnt be hard to fix the issue...
1498 2012-02-22 23:38:59 <sipa> Ok, let me know when to build again.
1499 2012-02-22 23:39:20 Ahimoth has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1500 2012-02-22 23:41:04 <BlueMatt> sipa: rebuild
1501 2012-02-22 23:41:16 Ahimoth has joined
1502 2012-02-22 23:42:42 <devrandom> BlueMatt: pong
1503 2012-02-22 23:43:16 safra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1505 2012-02-22 23:44:13 <BlueMatt> devrandom: oh, I was looking for help figuring out why gitian-builder wasnt figuring out that it was done building, but it turns out if you start a process with wine, it makes several other processes to handle wine backend stuff, and then (in some cases where faketime is loaded) gitian wont figure out that it is done
1506 2012-02-22 23:44:23 <BlueMatt> (just had to kill a few wine processes at the end of the script)
1507 2012-02-22 23:44:38 <devrandom> BlueMatt: good to know
1508 2012-02-22 23:45:09 <devrandom> maybe we can just explain how to install Ubuntu in the README and drop win32 support?
1509 2012-02-22 23:45:12 <devrandom> j/k
1510 2012-02-22 23:45:35 <BlueMatt> youve got a point...
1511 2012-02-22 23:45:48 <sipa> How about just shipping a virtualbox image with Ubuntu and Bitcoin preinstalled?
1512 2012-02-22 23:46:01 <BlueMatt> hey, it gives us much better security too :)
1513 2012-02-22 23:46:20 <BlueMatt> actually, that one is very doable and probably should be done...
1514 2012-02-22 23:46:38 <sipa> I wasn't *actually* serious, but maybe... :)
1515 2012-02-22 23:46:59 <BlueMatt> Ive seen one or two applications do that...
1516 2012-02-22 23:47:27 <BlueMatt> but the "I replaced the vm and my wallets gone" complaints will be too much to bear...
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1518 2012-02-22 23:51:09 <BlueMatt> sipa: 4a94b0c8aa1daabc76d75cae45de819bf9f2e14a1496062eafd695925e923e7f  bitcoin-deps-0.0.3.zip
1519 2012-02-22 23:51:28 <sipa> BlueMatt: still installing packages here :)
1520 2012-02-22 23:52:01 <BlueMatt> oh, I short-circuited that by installing a ton of crap in the make-base-vm stage (since Ive been building that+others hundreds of times in the past few days...)
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1529 2012-02-22 23:59:41 <sipa> 27dfeab4823933c3b4055a2ddb5f2373cfefe4cfa82a782fb1f32394229b3688  bitcoin-deps-0.0.3.zip
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