1 2012-02-23 00:00:06 <BlueMatt> :(
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   3 2012-02-23 00:00:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: can you upload it somewhere?
   4 2012-02-23 00:00:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/bitcoin-deps-0.0.3.zip
   5 2012-02-23 00:01:28 <BlueMatt> wtf? only the zip differs...
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  23 2012-02-23 00:03:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: heh
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  28 2012-02-23 00:03:45 <sipa> Is zip not deterministic? :o
  29 2012-02-23 00:04:05 ahbritto_ has joined
  30 2012-02-23 00:04:09 <BlueMatt> I thought it was (and weve been using zips in gitian all over the place without problem...)
  31 2012-02-23 00:04:11 twmz has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  32 2012-02-23 00:04:40 <BlueMatt> and they are very different...
  33 2012-02-23 00:04:42 <sipa> Maybe the order of the files in it?
  34 2012-02-23 00:05:00 <BlueMatt> mmm, yea maybe, is find not deterministic?
  35 2012-02-23 00:05:09 barmstrong has joined
  36 2012-02-23 00:05:30 <sipa> find reports results by default in the order they are in the directory index
  37 2012-02-23 00:05:44 <sipa> As I used -j5, that order may very well differ from yours.
  38 2012-02-23 00:05:44 <BlueMatt> which should be pretty deterministic (Id assume)
  39 2012-02-23 00:05:55 <BlueMatt> oh, yea -j5, I used -j2, that would do it...
  40 2012-02-23 00:06:00 <BlueMatt> alright, let me do some sorting...
  41 2012-02-23 00:06:02 <sipa> do find | sort
  42 2012-02-23 00:06:04 <sipa> Yeah.
  43 2012-02-23 00:10:07 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, try again
  44 2012-02-23 00:11:32 <sipa> The gitian process often reminds me of this: http://xkcd.com/676/
  45 2012-02-23 00:11:41 theorb has joined
  46 2012-02-23 00:11:59 <sipa> An http://xkcd.com/303/ is even more applicable.
  47 2012-02-23 00:12:04 <sipa> And.
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  50 2012-02-23 00:12:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, definitely both...303 being more of a pita than anything, but yea
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  55 2012-02-23 00:22:39 <BlueMatt> sipa: b65f4eabe0fd75222f35ae5a9a0aa72da66777d5c627f55afb77c935458ba603  bitcoin-deps-0.0.3.zip
  56 2012-02-23 00:23:25 <devrandom> sipa: heh
  57 2012-02-23 00:23:44 <devrandom> (re xkcd)
  58 2012-02-23 00:24:15 B0g4r7 has joined
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  60 2012-02-23 00:25:28 <sipa> b65f4eabe0fd75222f35ae5a9a0aa72da66777d5c627f55afb77c935458ba603  bitcoin-deps-0.0.3.zip
  61 2012-02-23 00:25:31 <sipa> \o/
  62 2012-02-23 00:25:39 <devrandom> yay
  63 2012-02-23 00:25:47 <BlueMatt> nice
  64 2012-02-23 00:25:58 <devrandom> wait, there's a digit difference after the aa72
  65 2012-02-23 00:25:59 <BlueMatt> now on to the other 3 gitian builds...
  66 2012-02-23 00:26:04 <BlueMatt> wait, what?
  67 2012-02-23 00:26:06 <devrandom> just kidding
  68 2012-02-23 00:26:11 <BlueMatt> damn you...
  69 2012-02-23 00:27:05 <sipa> devrandom: that would be one HELL of a coincidence :D
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  72 2012-02-23 00:27:47 <devrandom> yup, it would be the only one this universe
  73 2012-02-23 00:28:12 <sipa> Someone has obviously turned on an improbability device.
  74 2012-02-23 00:28:14 <BlueMatt> yea, that would be worth sending in to some crypto expert for analysis...
  75 2012-02-23 00:28:33 <BlueMatt> or almost worth...
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  77 2012-02-23 00:29:04 <devrandom> I think it would definitely be worth
  78 2012-02-23 00:29:32 <BlueMatt> probably
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 105 2012-02-23 00:54:01 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ping
 106 2012-02-23 00:56:07 GMP has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 107 2012-02-23 00:58:21 <BlueMatt> doing debug-build testing: qmake is being a pita and really, really doesnt want to build binaries with debug symbols without debug in the config (-g does nothing on win32 builds...), but that means you have to link with the debug versions of qt libs (ie including asserts, etc), stripped its 21.3MB whereas the non-debug one is 19.2 MB...
 108 2012-02-23 00:58:55 <BlueMatt> so the question is, are there differences in the debug version that would hurt us enough to make it worth it to do a ton more looking, or probably not?
 109 2012-02-23 00:59:01 <BlueMatt> afaict it runs the same...
 110 2012-02-23 00:59:28 Karmaon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 111 2012-02-23 00:59:53 <BlueMatt> (and googleing around for info on qt debug libraries leaves me with...next to nothing)
 112 2012-02-23 01:00:18 Karmaon has joined
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 114 2012-02-23 01:03:40 <BlueMatt> nevermind, found a better option...
 115 2012-02-23 01:03:49 <sipa> Being?
 116 2012-02-23 01:03:57 <BlueMatt> -separate-debug-info :)
 117 2012-02-23 01:04:06 <BlueMatt> well, maybe...
 118 2012-02-23 01:04:14 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 119 2012-02-23 01:05:21 Snapman has joined
 120 2012-02-23 01:06:30 <BlueMatt> nevermind, linux-only in qmake...
 121 2012-02-23 01:08:25 <wladston> kinlo: just finished to sync here with testnet, got the coins, thanks a lot man :)
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 126 2012-02-23 01:26:45 <BlueMatt> uhh...why is bitcoin-qt.exe on wine+tmpfs downloading quicker than Ive ever seen bitcoin-qt on linux+tmpfs download???
 127 2012-02-23 01:27:48 <sipa> My guess: VirtualLock() not implemented
 128 2012-02-23 01:27:53 <BlueMatt> heh, probably
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 131 2012-02-23 01:28:29 wasabi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 132 2012-02-23 01:29:56 <sipa> Also: bitcoin only requests the latest block from the first connection made
 133 2012-02-23 01:30:01 wasabi has joined
 134 2012-02-23 01:30:11 <BlueMatt> always downloading from localhost
 135 2012-02-23 01:30:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/883 :p
 136 2012-02-23 01:30:49 <sipa> But if a node with more blocks connects to the network himself, nobody will request those from him...
 137 2012-02-23 01:30:54 <BlueMatt> 75% in 6 minutes...
 138 2012-02-23 01:31:01 <sipa> (Just realized that during a test with roconnor)
 139 2012-02-23 01:31:21 <BlueMatt> oh, thats odd...
 140 2012-02-23 01:31:39 <BlueMatt> I could have sword we request blockchain tip from every new connection...
 141 2012-02-23 01:31:52 <sipa> Nope, only the first one.
 142 2012-02-23 01:32:08 <sipa> That's usually enough to do an initial sync; newly found blocks are announces anyway.
 143 2012-02-23 01:32:09 <BlueMatt> damn, should be easy to fix though
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 148 2012-02-23 01:37:55 <BlueMatt> well, ok its not much faster, but I do think it is slightly faster...which is just odd
 149 2012-02-23 01:38:22 <sipa> Remember, WINE is not an emulator :p
 150 2012-02-23 01:38:59 <BlueMatt> yes, but bitcoin-qt.exe is i386, not amd64 like bitcoin-qt on linux is...
 151 2012-02-23 01:39:16 <sipa> amd64 is far from necessarily faster
 152 2012-02-23 01:39:26 <BlueMatt> true, but it shouldnt be slower...
 153 2012-02-23 01:39:46 <BlueMatt> (or if it is, gcc needs some work...)
 154 2012-02-23 01:40:34 <sipa> It sure can be slower; higher code size means less code fits in the CPU's caches during execution.
 155 2012-02-23 01:41:02 <sipa> On the other hand, more and larger registers means some algorithms need less interaction with cache.
 156 2012-02-23 01:41:04 <BlueMatt> it sure can be, but if its ending up slower, gcc should be just using i386 instructions...
 157 2012-02-23 01:41:13 <sipa> Eh, no...
 158 2012-02-23 01:41:28 <sipa> The entire process is either 32-bit or 64-bit
 159 2012-02-23 01:42:16 BlueMatt has left ("...wow")
 160 2012-02-23 01:42:19 <luke-jr> LOL
 161 2012-02-23 01:42:46 BlueMatt has joined
 162 2012-02-23 01:42:56 * BlueMatt apparently doesnt know how to think...
 163 2012-02-23 01:42:57 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: x86 != everything else ;)
 164 2012-02-23 01:43:11 <BlueMatt> that comment was just sad...
 165 2012-02-23 01:43:57 <BlueMatt> ...doesnt even make sense
 166 2012-02-23 01:44:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: other architectures support mixing 32-bit and 64-bit, but not x86
 167 2012-02-23 01:44:43 <sipa> I am very glad it is that way; now we have at least some hope of ever dumping all x86's compatibility modes
 168 2012-02-23 01:45:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: keep dreaming
 169 2012-02-23 01:45:05 <luke-jr> sipa: hahaha
 170 2012-02-23 01:45:07 <sipa> Yeah, I know...
 171 2012-02-23 01:45:12 <luke-jr> doesn't x86 still boot in 16-bit mode?
 172 2012-02-23 01:45:16 <BlueMatt> yep
 173 2012-02-23 01:45:16 <sipa> Yes.
 174 2012-02-23 01:45:21 <sipa> 8-bit mode even, no?
 175 2012-02-23 01:45:25 <luke-jr> >_<
 176 2012-02-23 01:45:30 <BlueMatt> thought it was 16, but maybe...
 177 2012-02-23 01:45:44 <luke-jr> sipa: I'd much rather dump x86 entirely
 178 2012-02-23 01:45:51 <sipa> luke-jr: ACK
 179 2012-02-23 01:45:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: for?
 180 2012-02-23 01:46:07 <luke-jr> if only Intel wasn't such jerks with keeping the microcode stuff closed, someone could port another arch to their CPUs :/
 181 2012-02-23 01:46:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: *anything* but x86…
 182 2012-02-23 01:46:14 <BlueMatt> agreed, but, what for?
 183 2012-02-23 01:46:36 <luke-jr> performance, for a start? sane instructions to look at when disassembling?
 184 2012-02-23 01:46:53 h4ckm3th32nd has joined
 185 2012-02-23 01:46:54 <BlueMatt> well, yea, it needs dumped, but what, for arm?
 186 2012-02-23 01:46:56 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: not true
 187 2012-02-23 01:47:01 <sipa> x86 is a high-level architecture that is very very far from how it currently is actually executed
 188 2012-02-23 01:47:07 <Diablo-D3> the x86 decoder is not written in microcode
 189 2012-02-23 01:47:10 <Diablo-D3> it uses dedicated hardware
 190 2012-02-23 01:47:18 <Diablo-D3> what you COULD do, however, is use the native microarch as your arch
 191 2012-02-23 01:47:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: SPARC
 192 2012-02-23 01:47:26 <Diablo-D3> AMD allows this on very select CPUs
 193 2012-02-23 01:47:35 <Diablo-D3> its really fucking fast
 194 2012-02-23 01:47:42 <Diablo-D3> requires a board that has a firmware that can do it though
 195 2012-02-23 01:47:42 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: I don't think the native microarch can run normal code
 196 2012-02-23 01:47:47 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: it can
 197 2012-02-23 01:47:51 splatster has joined
 198 2012-02-23 01:47:54 <Diablo-D3> on k8s and up, theres even a gcc patchset for it
 199 2012-02-23 01:47:57 <pingdrive> luke-jr, if only Intel wasn't such jerks with keeping the microcode stuff closed, someone could port another arch to their CPUs :/
 200 2012-02-23 01:48:01 <pingdrive> this makes no sense
 201 2012-02-23 01:48:16 <pingdrive> do you know how cpu works?
 202 2012-02-23 01:48:19 <luke-jr> it's tempting to paste this link to someone I don't like: http://91.222.39.58:8080/realsolid_logs.txt (DO NOT CLICK)
 203 2012-02-23 01:48:22 <Diablo-D3> pingdrive: he doesnt, and I just pwned him
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 205 2012-02-23 01:48:43 <pingdrive> oh werd
 206 2012-02-23 01:48:44 <luke-jr> pingdrive: obviously not, because Intel won't release specs
 207 2012-02-23 01:48:45 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: why no click? last measure?
 208 2012-02-23 01:48:46 splatster has joined
 209 2012-02-23 01:48:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thats like putting up a big red button and only putting "DO NOT PUSH" on it
 210 2012-02-23 01:49:00 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: you know everyone is gonna push it
 211 2012-02-23 01:49:18 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: it's rigged to a DDoS
 212 2012-02-23 01:50:17 <Diablo-D3> so if I vist it on caspar, it will end up with you in prison?
 213 2012-02-23 01:50:31 <luke-jr> me? no
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 217 2012-02-23 01:52:12 <dub> I clicked the other link (thanks gmaxwell), didnt notice any ddos
 218 2012-02-23 01:52:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: ohhhh, its progress bar was off because its only connected to one node (so 100% is highest checkpoint, not others peer's highest block)
 219 2012-02-23 01:52:59 <sipa> Haha.
 220 2012-02-23 01:54:25 <BlueMatt> (also, we need another checkpoint, its been quite a while)
 221 2012-02-23 01:55:31 <sipa> 168000 was a nice number
 222 2012-02-23 01:55:36 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
 223 2012-02-23 01:55:37 <gribble> 168025
 224 2012-02-23 01:55:48 <sipa> (though it should be 100 deep)
 225 2012-02-23 01:56:00 <BlueMatt> it will easily be by the time we release 0.6
 226 2012-02-23 01:56:21 <BlueMatt> well, I was going to test the non-debug binary to compare its speed with the debug one, but the non-debug one crashed just sitting there downloading blocks (and guess what, its backtrace was useless :) )
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 231 2012-02-23 02:04:46 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: eh, debug binary? O.o
 232 2012-02-23 02:04:50 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Download IceChat at www.icechat.net)
 233 2012-02-23 02:04:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: read logs
 234 2012-02-23 02:04:57 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: does Windows not support split debug info like Linux?
 235 2012-02-23 02:05:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: read logs
 236 2012-02-23 02:05:05 <luke-jr> which part?
 237 2012-02-23 02:05:15 <BlueMatt> everything after <BlueMatt> wumpus: ping
 238 2012-02-23 02:06:43 <luke-jr> hrm
 239 2012-02-23 02:06:53 <luke-jr> why doesn't -g work?
 240 2012-02-23 02:07:15 <BlueMatt> nfc, Im assuming qmake puts some strips in the Makefile, but I cant figure out where and how to skip it
 241 2012-02-23 02:07:32 <BlueMatt> (again google turns up a useful...nothing)
 242 2012-02-23 02:07:54 <sipa> BlueMatt: i change the 'STRIP := strip' to 'STRIP := true' in the generated Makefile manually if I need debug binaries
 243 2012-02-23 02:08:02 <sipa> Didn't know a better way :)
 244 2012-02-23 02:08:03 <luke-jr> ah
 245 2012-02-23 02:08:17 <BlueMatt> sipa: tried it, also $(STRIP) is never called
 246 2012-02-23 02:08:25 <luke-jr> I thought you meant it literally didn't do anything in gdb :p
 247 2012-02-23 02:08:27 <luke-jr> gcc*
 248 2012-02-23 02:09:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: Hmm, right.
 249 2012-02-23 02:09:24 <BlueMatt> Ill probably look more into it later, but afaict gcc is ignoring -g
 250 2012-02-23 02:10:10 <pingdrive> which file in ./bitcoin directory contains the data displayed on blockexplorer?
 251 2012-02-23 02:10:14 <sipa> Isn't some degree of debugging debug?
 252 2012-02-23 02:10:17 <sipa> *default
 253 2012-02-23 02:10:26 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: blk*
 254 2012-02-23 02:10:39 <BlueMatt> sipa: not afaict (strip does nothing on the default release binaries)
 255 2012-02-23 02:11:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: try
 256 2012-02-23 02:11:04 <luke-jr> QMAKE_CXXFLAGS_RELEASE = $$QMAKE_CFLAGS_RELEASE_WITH_DEBUGINFO
 257 2012-02-23 02:11:06 <luke-jr> QMAKE_LFLAGS_RELEASE = $$QMAKE_LFLAGS_RELEASE_WITH_DEBUGINFO
 258 2012-02-23 02:11:20 <BlueMatt> hmm, that looks promising...
 259 2012-02-23 02:11:36 <pingdrive> okay there are two files
 260 2012-02-23 02:11:45 <pingdrive> which one contains difficulties for blocks
 261 2012-02-23 02:11:49 <sipa> pingdrive: both
 262 2012-02-23 02:12:34 <sipa> pingdrive: blk0001.dat contains the blocks themselves, blkindex.dat contains metadata about all blocks and transactions (in particular which ones are already spent, and where in blk0001.dat they reside)
 263 2012-02-23 02:12:55 <sipa> But the difficulty is both part of the blocks themselves and part of the metadata.
 264 2012-02-23 02:13:04 <pingdrive> i need to pull all difficulties for all block ever
 265 2012-02-23 02:13:10 <pingdrive> blocks*
 266 2012-02-23 02:13:37 <sipa> 0.6.0's getblock RPC call is probably the easiest way to get those.
 267 2012-02-23 02:13:57 <pingdrive> ummm
 268 2012-02-23 02:14:03 <pingdrive> what does that mean?>
 269 2012-02-23 02:16:04 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
 270 2012-02-23 02:16:27 <pingdrive> its never easy
 271 2012-02-23 02:16:30 <pingdrive> grr
 272 2012-02-23 02:16:50 <sipa> ?
 273 2012-02-23 02:17:16 <pingdrive> always gotta do work before you do work
 274 2012-02-23 02:17:45 <sipa> :)
 275 2012-02-23 02:22:10 <pingdrive> i know people post on bitcoin forums asking for work, but most stuff i can do myself, i just cant figure out when do i involve people and pay thme
 276 2012-02-23 02:22:32 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: RELEASE_WITH_DEBUGINFO is exactly the same as debug afaict...
 277 2012-02-23 02:22:33 <BlueMatt> :(
 278 2012-02-23 02:22:42 <BlueMatt> (links to debug qt libraries, etc)
 279 2012-02-23 02:22:49 <luke-jr> :/
 280 2012-02-23 02:24:35 <BlueMatt> so, in other words, it looks like qt recommends releasing stripped debug binaries...
 281 2012-02-23 02:25:47 <BlueMatt> Im gonna go do some more benchmarking between the two, and if its all good, Ill pull request that
 282 2012-02-23 02:26:16 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Qt debug has asserts all over the place
 283 2012-02-23 02:26:28 <luke-jr> is this problem Win32-specific, or Linux too?
 284 2012-02-23 02:26:35 <BlueMatt> so? if it doesnt effect performance much, who cares?
 285 2012-02-23 02:26:38 <BlueMatt> its win32-specific
 286 2012-02-23 02:27:05 <BlueMatt> (and it shouldnt, assuming all those asserts are only in gui threads and dont touch blockchain download)
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 289 2012-02-23 02:31:18 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: for some backward-ass reason, building on linux with CONFIG = debug links against the RELEASE versions of libqt, not the debug ones...
 290 2012-02-23 02:33:52 splatster is now known as splatster|away
 291 2012-02-23 02:33:53 <luke-jr> <.<
 292 2012-02-23 02:34:03 <BlueMatt> maybe ubuntu/debian fucked with qmake, but...
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 308 2012-02-23 02:53:43 <nanotube> sipa: maybe. shoot me a link to your crawler db again? :)
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 318 2012-02-23 03:16:11 <BlueMatt> nevermind, stripped version linked against debug qt libs has measurably worse performance...
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 321 2012-02-23 03:18:10 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 887 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/887>
 322 2012-02-23 03:21:20 Snapman`420 is now known as Snapman[afkers]
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 330 2012-02-23 03:54:09 <BlueMatt> omfg...
 331 2012-02-23 03:54:15 <BlueMatt> OMFG
 332 2012-02-23 03:54:22 <luke-jr> …
 333 2012-02-23 03:54:30 <BlueMatt> so that measurably worse performance of the debug version, guess what?
 334 2012-02-23 03:54:37 <BlueMatt> cblockstore has always been built in debugmode
 335 2012-02-23 03:54:47 <BlueMatt> so...there is no damn performance issue
 336 2012-02-23 03:55:02 <BlueMatt> in fact, its slightly faster
 337 2012-02-23 03:55:12 <luke-jr> LOL
 338 2012-02-23 03:55:15 <luke-jr> nice
 339 2012-02-23 03:55:16 <BlueMatt> FML
 340 2012-02-23 03:55:34 <luke-jr> BlueMatt++ for improving performance accidentally
 341 2012-02-23 03:56:01 <BlueMatt> no, the slightly faster part is (im 99% sure) just the moving of wallet rescan to a separate thread
 342 2012-02-23 03:56:09 <luke-jr> lol
 343 2012-02-23 03:56:23 <luke-jr> oh well, still
 344 2012-02-23 03:56:24 <BlueMatt> though maybe there is more Ill probably do some more benchmarking later
 345 2012-02-23 03:56:28 <BlueMatt> but either way
 346 2012-02-23 03:56:34 <luke-jr> BlueMatt++ for writing hidden-bug-free code <.<
 347 2012-02-23 03:57:00 <BlueMatt> BlueMatt-- for taking this damn long to figure out the issue
 348 2012-02-23 03:57:09 <BlueMatt> I guess I come out with 0?
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 350 2012-02-23 03:57:25 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: don't be so hard on yourself
 351 2012-02-23 03:57:28 num1 has joined
 352 2012-02-23 03:57:46 <luke-jr> I'm just as much to blame
 353 2012-02-23 03:57:52 <luke-jr> I should have noticed it didn't impact next-test
 354 2012-02-23 03:57:59 <k9quaint> bluematt: worse, it turns out you are not the real bluematt, just a pointer to the real one
 355 2012-02-23 03:58:16 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well its a pita to test because its slight enough that you have to download plenty of blocks to figure it out...
 356 2012-02-23 03:58:20 <k9quaint> and now that you have been incremented, we lost you in a page swap :(
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 365 2012-02-23 04:29:06 <BlueMatt> the perf difference on cblockstore is about 5%, probably +/- something like 2%
 366 2012-02-23 04:29:19 <BlueMatt> so not much, but measureable
 367 2012-02-23 04:29:31 <BlueMatt> measurable*
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 370 2012-02-23 04:31:35 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: but favourable?
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 372 2012-02-23 04:32:30 <BlueMatt> yea
 373 2012-02-23 04:32:58 <BlueMatt> Ill publish some hard numbers once Ive run the test a couple times
 374 2012-02-23 04:35:13 <BlueMatt> odd, it looks like actually less than 50% of that diff is due to the scanning of blocks for wallet txes without blocking block download
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 378 2012-02-23 04:38:30 <BlueMatt_> yay, also back to the really weird computer lockups :)
 379 2012-02-23 04:38:32 <BlueMatt_> :(
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 388 2012-02-23 04:53:07 <luke-jr> BlueMatt_: maybe try Linux 3.2
 389 2012-02-23 04:53:22 <luke-jr> at least nested VT-x seemed unstable with 3.1
 390 2012-02-23 04:53:32 <BlueMatt_> Im not even using vt-x
 391 2012-02-23 04:53:35 BlueMatt_ is now known as BlueMatt
 392 2012-02-23 04:53:36 <luke-jr> gitian
 393 2012-02-23 04:53:42 <BlueMatt> Im not using gitian
 394 2012-02-23 04:53:50 <BlueMatt> literally the only thing running is bitcoin-qt
 395 2012-02-23 04:53:54 <luke-jr> O.o
 396 2012-02-23 04:53:56 <BlueMatt> (2 of them exchanging blocks)
 397 2012-02-23 04:53:59 <BlueMatt> (on tmpfs's)
 398 2012-02-23 04:54:03 <luke-jr> hmm
 399 2012-02-23 04:54:09 <luke-jr> memtest said OK?
 400 2012-02-23 04:55:21 <BlueMatt> yea
 401 2012-02-23 04:55:39 <BlueMatt> I should do a straight cpu stresstest too, just havnt had time yet...
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 496 2012-02-23 10:12:19 xenland has joined
 497 2012-02-23 10:12:42 <xenland> How do I send Bitcoins through RPC with a precision of 8 decimal points?
 498 2012-02-23 10:12:54 <sipa> ?
 499 2012-02-23 10:12:58 <xenland> I'll have to compile my own client I'm thinking right?
 500 2012-02-23 10:13:06 <sipa> No.
 501 2012-02-23 10:13:39 <sipa> sendtoaccount address 1.23456789
 502 2012-02-23 10:13:46 <xenland> Well my problem is when i use the bitcoin-php library I sendtoaddress() and it constantly rounds to a the .01 decminal place
 503 2012-02-23 10:13:50 <sipa> eh, sendtoaddress
 504 2012-02-23 10:14:05 <sipa> Which bitcoin version?
 505 2012-02-23 10:14:28 <xenland> 5.1 or 5.2 i can't remember let me check
 506 2012-02-23 10:14:46 <sipa> It should never round.
 507 2012-02-23 10:15:24 <sipa> Maybe a bug in the library?
 508 2012-02-23 10:17:39 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 509 2012-02-23 10:18:07 <xenland> I looked in the library functions/classes it dosen't do any rounding or anything to the value although in their documentation it explains that it will round to the nearest thousandth
 510 2012-02-23 10:18:16 <xenland> so I assumed it was the bitcoin client
 511 2012-02-23 10:18:40 <xenland> im going to try through command line and see if it rounds
 512 2012-02-23 10:19:06 danbri has joined
 513 2012-02-23 10:20:50 <xenland> It was becuase i wasn't taking into account for transaction fees
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 518 2012-02-23 10:47:29 <swulf--> curious..i'm still learning how bitcoin works internally, but one thing i can't figure out is the timestamps in a block header.. how are those verified to be correct?  couldn't a client just put garbage in as a date?
 519 2012-02-23 10:49:50 <sipa> they must not be: lower than the median of the past 11 blocks, and not be more than 2 hours in the future
 520 2012-02-23 10:50:15 <swulf--> !
 521 2012-02-23 10:50:17 <swulf--> so clever
 522 2012-02-23 10:52:35 <swulf--> since a block can have a timestamp 2 hours in the future, does it matter that a subsequent block has a timestamp less than the previous?
 523 2012-02-23 10:53:09 RazielZ has joined
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 525 2012-02-23 11:00:02 <Graet> no
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 532 2012-02-23 11:14:29 <badluck> upgrade your shizzles
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 534 2012-02-23 11:17:46 <sipa> ?
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 540 2012-02-23 11:25:11 <badluck> broctothorpe
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 543 2012-02-23 11:30:35 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: jonassmedegaard opened issue 888 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/888>
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 552 2012-02-23 12:03:44 <vegard> public keys are not uniformly distributed, are they?
 553 2012-02-23 12:04:10 <Diablo-D3> vegard: "yes"
 554 2012-02-23 12:04:26 <Diablo-D3> but the algo selected was not selected based on it being uniformly distributed or not
 555 2012-02-23 12:04:42 <Diablo-D3> it just happens that cryptographically strong algos tend to score highly on that
 556 2012-02-23 12:05:15 <vegard> examining the public keys embedded in the block chain, I find that they are highly non-uniform
 557 2012-02-23 12:05:48 <Diablo-D3> how many keys is that, though?
 558 2012-02-23 12:05:59 <Diablo-D3> you cant do uniformity tests unless you have several million keys
 559 2012-02-23 12:08:17 <vegard> I find that 26.7% of the bits are fixed to either 0 or 1
 560 2012-02-23 12:09:03 <vegard> for example: bit 911, 919, 927, 935, and 943 of the pubkey are always fixed to 0
 561 2012-02-23 12:09:51 <vegard> that looks like a stride of 8.. but I don't think I have a bug in my program, because you can grab any pubkey off blockexplorer and verify it easily
 562 2012-02-23 12:10:05 * Diablo-D3 shrugs
 563 2012-02-23 12:10:05 <vegard> for example, I grabbed the key 0x041d90591be2f1c02ad6f8a5bc60bb2fac335d9433657623fc4f9e270dee012c790e2cd2f83d10a60f9cf5d16b009e10e6847dd696a16e34ad8aec73747775804d off the latest block
 564 2012-02-23 12:10:13 <Diablo-D3> bring it up with gmaxwell
 565 2012-02-23 12:10:45 <sipa> vegard: no reason it needs to be uniform
 566 2012-02-23 12:10:53 <Diablo-D3> also, that too
 567 2012-02-23 12:11:07 <vegard> so they're not supposed to be, right?
 568 2012-02-23 12:11:18 <Diablo-D3> vegard: thats not true either
 569 2012-02-23 12:11:18 <vegard> (that was my original question)
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 571 2012-02-23 12:11:21 <sipa> also, they are only 512 bits wide
 572 2012-02-23 12:11:35 <vegard> O.o
 573 2012-02-23 12:11:36 <badluck> theres a checksum embedded in the address
 574 2012-02-23 12:11:47 <Diablo-D3> heh, could explain the weirdity
 575 2012-02-23 12:12:16 <ThomasV> address != pubkey
 576 2012-02-23 12:12:17 <sipa> vegard: disregard the 0x04 at the start, that is just serialization
 577 2012-02-23 12:12:42 <sipa> after that there are 128 hex characters
 578 2012-02-23 12:13:17 <vegard> nvm
 579 2012-02-23 12:13:20 <vegard> I found the bug
 580 2012-02-23 12:13:28 <Diablo-D3> vegard: when in doubt, doubt your code
 581 2012-02-23 12:13:45 <vegard> still, my original question holds: are they supposed to be uniformly random or not? :-P
 582 2012-02-23 12:13:59 <Diablo-D3> vegard: neither.
 583 2012-02-23 12:14:01 <sipa> i'd say no
 584 2012-02-23 12:14:05 <Diablo-D3> its a factor that doesnt matter
 585 2012-02-23 12:14:19 <Diablo-D3> infact, uniformly random is a misnomer
 586 2012-02-23 12:14:26 <Diablo-D3> if something is uniformly random, its not random
 587 2012-02-23 12:14:38 <sipa> Diablo-D3: it is
 588 2012-02-23 12:14:46 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yet its not
 589 2012-02-23 12:14:59 <Diablo-D3> any truly random number god would still have clumps of shit
 590 2012-02-23 12:15:11 <vegard> not in the long run
 591 2012-02-23 12:15:14 <sipa> uniformly random means that each possibility is equally likely
 592 2012-02-23 12:15:28 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes, but it doesnt mean every possibility HAS equally happened
 593 2012-02-23 12:15:38 <Diablo-D3> this is why you need a significant number of results from the search space
 594 2012-02-23 12:15:43 <sipa> that doesn't mean local clustering is forbidden
 595 2012-02-23 12:15:55 <Diablo-D3> hes only looking at pubkeys in the chain
 596 2012-02-23 12:16:00 <Diablo-D3> which is a smidgen of all possible keys
 597 2012-02-23 12:16:08 <sipa> irrelevant
 598 2012-02-23 12:16:33 <sipa> he is making an observation based on a limited sample
 599 2012-02-23 12:16:41 <Diablo-D3> badly performed science is never irrelevant
 600 2012-02-23 12:17:02 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but you have to ask yourself is the sample statistically valid
 601 2012-02-23 12:17:09 <sipa> but that may allow him to derive statistical information about the population
 602 2012-02-23 12:17:12 <vegard> the bad science here was using the ascii string instead of the binary string :-P
 603 2012-02-23 12:17:21 <Diablo-D3> vegard: that too.
 604 2012-02-23 12:17:23 <sipa> LOL
 605 2012-02-23 12:17:38 <Diablo-D3> infact, no wonder you think its not random
 606 2012-02-23 12:18:12 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes, but he cant derive if its uniform or not
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 608 2012-02-23 12:18:34 <Diablo-D3> 2**512 is like 13 brazillion or something
 609 2012-02-23 12:18:50 <sipa> vegard: anyway, there is a simple mathematical relation that holds for all valid pubkrys, so they are definitely not truly uniformly distributed
 610 2012-02-23 12:19:23 <vegard> Diablo-D3: if one of the bits of the pubkey is not uniformly distributed, the whole pubkey cannot be uniformly distributed
 611 2012-02-23 12:19:41 mrsy has joined
 612 2012-02-23 12:19:46 <Diablo-D3> vegard: thats not true
 613 2012-02-23 12:19:47 <vegard> (this is not true the other way, though)
 614 2012-02-23 12:19:50 <Diablo-D3> they actually have a scale for that.
 615 2012-02-23 12:20:18 <Diablo-D3> Ive seen it mentioned in papers
 616 2012-02-23 12:20:38 <badluck> well it should be uniformly distribtued among all possible keys.. but the bitpattern doesnt have to be
 617 2012-02-23 12:21:38 mrsy has left ()
 618 2012-02-23 12:21:40 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, I said strong crypto algos perform good on distribution
 619 2012-02-23 12:21:52 <Diablo-D3> there are non-cyrpto algos that perform better
 620 2012-02-23 12:23:11 mrsy has joined
 621 2012-02-23 12:23:12 <Diablo-D3> its not perfectly uniform, but its clearly in the good enough territory
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 626 2012-02-23 12:27:21 <sipa> Diablo-D3: sure, perfect hash functions can be better than cryptographic hashes for some purposes
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 628 2012-02-23 12:27:50 <sipa> but the public key construction is not a hash function at all
 629 2012-02-23 12:28:16 <sipa> all it claims is being hard to revert to the private key
 630 2012-02-23 12:28:59 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 631 2012-02-23 12:29:09 <vegard> ok, so now using the binary values, it does indeed appear that each bit is approximately uniformly distributed
 632 2012-02-23 12:29:29 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, Im going to bed
 633 2012-02-23 12:29:33 <Diablo-D3> night all
 634 2012-02-23 12:30:03 <vegard> night!
 635 2012-02-23 12:31:01 <sipa> vegard: maybe it is not uniform antmore for combinations of bits
 636 2012-02-23 12:31:28 <vegard> maybe.
 637 2012-02-23 12:34:15 <badluck> ecc keyspace is around half the key size
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 639 2012-02-23 12:38:58 <archo43> whats a perfect hash function?
 640 2012-02-23 12:39:18 <badluck> a collision-free one
 641 2012-02-23 12:40:51 <edcba> that's not an hash anymore then
 642 2012-02-23 12:41:07 <badluck> yes it is. a perfect one
 643 2012-02-23 12:41:36 <edcba> you can't reduce an infinite set of element to a finite one without collisions :)
 644 2012-02-23 12:41:56 <edcba> unless perfect means impossible :p
 645 2012-02-23 12:42:13 <sipa> perfect hash functions are defined for finite sets
 646 2012-02-23 12:42:16 <badluck> yes, the set of elements has to be finite, of course
 647 2012-02-23 12:42:51 <sipa> and cryptographic hash functions cannot be perfect, as they would leak information
 648 2012-02-23 12:44:15 <badluck> http://cmph.sourceforge.net/
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 665 2012-02-23 13:33:49 <archo43> i agree
 666 2012-02-23 13:34:00 <archo43> the size of the hash of a perfect function must equal its inputs
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 668 2012-02-23 13:39:13 <vegard> that's not true
 669 2012-02-23 13:39:28 <vegard> the number of bits of output could be larger than the number of bits of input
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 673 2012-02-23 13:51:04 <sipa> archo43: you're talking about a minimal perfect hash
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 703 2012-02-23 15:08:57 <swulf--> why are the upper (lower?) 8 bytes of the block sha256 hash all zero?  kind of weird to me that a hash function has such a common occurrence of zeros
 704 2012-02-23 15:09:38 <swulf--> sorry... 6 bytes?
 705 2012-02-23 15:09:58 <swulf--> or is it that they aren't, just that those blocks in bitcoin have to be all zero in order to meet the target?
 706 2012-02-23 15:10:03 <Zarutian> swulf--: you familiar with the concept of hashcash?
 707 2012-02-23 15:10:11 <slush> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_work
 708 2012-02-23 15:10:17 <slush> swulf--: ^
 709 2012-02-23 15:10:27 <swulf--> i understand the proof of work concept
 710 2012-02-23 15:10:42 <slush> then what you don't understand ? :-)
 711 2012-02-23 15:10:43 <swulf--> am i correct in stating that the only reason why the hash is full of leading zeros is because the target hash is full of leading zeros?
 712 2012-02-23 15:10:59 <swulf--> s/target hash/target
 713 2012-02-23 15:11:03 <slush> yes
 714 2012-02-23 15:11:05 <swulf--> ok:)
 715 2012-02-23 15:11:06 <swulf--> thanks
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 718 2012-02-23 15:12:22 <swulf--> any reason why the header of each block compresses the target to 4 bytes? why not just send the full 32 byte target?  extra 28 bytes on a header isn't that big of a deal, is it?
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 721 2012-02-23 15:13:04 <sipa> Headers are 80 bytes now; 28 bytes extra is relevant :)
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 723 2012-02-23 15:13:26 <pasa> tuum ganish budunga deh heh...ganish budunga ga deh he
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 727 2012-02-23 15:14:16 <swulf--> :)
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 746 2012-02-23 15:52:16 <ThomasV> !seen piuk
 747 2012-02-23 15:52:16 <gribble> piuk was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 weeks, 3 days, 18 hours, 53 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <piuk> ignore that - my mistake
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 750 2012-02-23 15:59:17 <kokjo> hi!
 751 2012-02-23 16:00:09 <kokjo> is it possible to harvest fees multiple times by including the same transaction multiple blocks?
 752 2012-02-23 16:00:51 <luke-jr> no
 753 2012-02-23 16:00:57 <luke-jr> the same transaction is not valid twice
 754 2012-02-23 16:01:04 <kokjo> and what does the satoshi client do, about block with already comfirmed transactions?
 755 2012-02-23 16:01:21 <sipa> kokjo: it will reject them
 756 2012-02-23 16:01:30 <sipa> as is required by the network rules
 757 2012-02-23 16:01:31 <kokjo> are you sure?
 758 2012-02-23 16:01:39 <sipa> postive
 759 2012-02-23 16:01:39 <riush> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules
 760 2012-02-23 16:02:01 <kokjo> thanks!
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 763 2012-02-23 16:03:49 <riush> kokjo: block messages, 16.1.5, should cover your case
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 765 2012-02-23 16:04:56 <kokjo> yes but if that transaction, does have the same hash, would it be possible to hit a glitch?
 766 2012-02-23 16:05:31 <edcba> that won't happen
 767 2012-02-23 16:05:35 mcorlett is now known as MittRomney2012
 768 2012-02-23 16:05:42 <gmaxwell> having a different transaction with the same hash isn't the same thing as having the same transaction twice.
 769 2012-02-23 16:05:48 MittRomney2012 is now known as mcorlett
 770 2012-02-23 16:06:02 <riush> well, bugs are always possible, but i would expect the client looking in its database, seeing 'already got that' and ignoring it
 771 2012-02-23 16:06:15 <gmaxwell> edcba: well, there is a way that it can be caused to happen, but we're in the process of making that impossible.
 772 2012-02-23 16:06:18 <sipa> first, such transactions will not be accepted into the memory pool
 773 2012-02-23 16:06:40 <sipa> second, if they were in a block a second time, that would mean spending its inputs twice
 774 2012-02-23 16:06:47 <sipa> which is most certainly forbibbed
 775 2012-02-23 16:06:55 <kokjo> sipa: could a rough miner do it?
 776 2012-02-23 16:07:06 <sipa> kokjo: yes, but his blocks would be ignored by everyone else
 777 2012-02-23 16:07:15 <sipa> because such a block is not valid
 778 2012-02-23 16:08:38 <kokjo> fine, thanks!
 779 2012-02-23 16:08:49 <gmaxwell> Exactly as a 'miner' could produce a 'block' that was nothing but the word 'spam' repeated over and over again 'spamspamspamspam...' of course, all other nodes would just drop it and would blacklist peers trying to tell them about it.
 780 2012-02-23 16:09:22 iocor has joined
 781 2012-02-23 16:09:23 <kokjo> going to look though the code, to find out where the magic happens :)
 782 2012-02-23 16:09:48 <kokjo> thanks for your help. :)
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 792 2012-02-23 16:25:56 <jrmithdobbs> you could coinbase to a script that was spamspamspamspamspam and burns the coins though
 793 2012-02-23 16:26:23 <jrmithdobbs> but why
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 800 2012-02-23 16:43:54 <jgarzik> !seen sirius
 801 2012-02-23 16:43:54 <gribble> sirius was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 23 weeks, 5 days, 8 hours, 44 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <sirius> The forum is being relocated and should be up some time today. There was an exploit that allowed to upload javascript as a smiley and embed it. The database should be safe.
 802 2012-02-23 16:44:03 <jgarzik> hrm
 803 2012-02-23 16:44:14 <jgarzik> !seen theymos
 804 2012-02-23 16:44:14 <gribble> theymos was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 days, 16 hours, 14 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <theymos> gmaxwell: Thanks. I will add it.
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 823 2012-02-23 17:39:05 <swulf--> where in the code is the difficulty (the one that occurs ever 2016) adjustment made?
 824 2012-02-23 17:39:12 <swulf--> every*
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 826 2012-02-23 17:41:55 <gavinandresen> main.cpp GetNextWorkRequired.  If I recall correctly
 827 2012-02-23 17:42:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell sipa: cblockstore performance issues resolved :)
 828 2012-02-23 17:42:24 <BlueMatt> (turns out there never were any performance issues)
 829 2012-02-23 17:42:28 <swulf--> is it GetNextWorkR... oh :)
 830 2012-02-23 17:42:32 <swulf--> foudn it just as you said that
 831 2012-02-23 17:42:42 <swulf--> thanks
 832 2012-02-23 17:43:51 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: i sent those sidsecurity guys an email seeing what it takes to get a devkit/etc, no response yet :(
 833 2012-02-23 17:43:57 <jrmithdobbs> err nidsecurity
 834 2012-02-23 17:44:06 <ThomasV> when?
 835 2012-02-23 17:44:12 <jrmithdobbs> earlier this morning
 836 2012-02-23 17:44:21 <jrmithdobbs> it's still early in CA we'll see ;p
 837 2012-02-23 17:44:28 <ThomasV> I think they are in switwerland, no?
 838 2012-02-23 17:45:35 <ThomasV> http://www.nidsecurity.com/about/about.html
 839 2012-02-23 17:46:20 <ThomasV> oh they have offices in LA too
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 842 2012-02-23 17:52:02 <ThomasV> jrmithdobbs: I also compiled a list of references on the wiki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Smart_card_wallet One of them is an implementation of ECDSA on a smart card
 843 2012-02-23 17:54:05 <ThomasV> jrmithdobbs: if you are serious about doing it, I suggest to start with standard smart cards; dev kits are cheap for those
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 845 2012-02-23 18:07:46 <btc_novice> Are the bitcoin.conf and command line options meant to be interchangeable?
 846 2012-02-23 18:07:53 <btc_novice> I would have thought yes....
 847 2012-02-23 18:08:46 <btc_novice> For example, the "testnet" flag-- on the command line it must be -testnet, and in the conf file, it must be testnet=1
 848 2012-02-23 18:09:13 <XMPPwocky> yu-[
 849 2012-02-23 18:09:16 <XMPPwocky> yup
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 856 2012-02-23 18:12:32 <btc_novice> XMPPwocky: so they are not meant to be interchangeable?
 857 2012-02-23 18:13:00 <XMPPwocky> they are interchangable
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 860 2012-02-23 18:13:48 <btc_novice> But in practice, they are not interchangeable.
 861 2012-02-23 18:14:18 <btc_novice> the conf file requires testnet=1 to use the testnet.
 862 2012-02-23 18:14:31 <XMPPwocky> read util.h
 863 2012-02-23 18:14:32 <btc_novice> if you just put testnet in the conf file, it throws an exception.
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 865 2012-02-23 18:14:51 <XMPPwocky> the syntax is not interchangable
 866 2012-02-23 18:15:27 <XMPPwocky> the meaning is (except for those that affect the findingm of the configcfiole)
 867 2012-02-23 18:16:05 <btc_novice> That's fine, but consistency would be nice. For example, the min flag does not behave the same as the testnet flag between command line and conf file.
 868 2012-02-23 18:16:24 <XMPPwocky> read util.h
 869 2012-02-23 18:16:34 <btc_novice> I will
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 876 2012-02-23 18:23:27 <btc_novice> test
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 878 2012-02-23 18:24:02 <BlueMatt_> ???
 879 2012-02-23 18:24:05 BlueMatt_ is now known as BlueMatt
 880 2012-02-23 18:24:28 <gavinandresen> btc_novice: -testnet=1 on the command line works
 881 2012-02-23 18:24:28 dikidera is now known as diki
 882 2012-02-23 18:24:40 <gavinandresen> (as does -testnet=0)
 883 2012-02-23 18:25:20 <btc_novice> Thanks gavinadresen. I guess what bothers me is that "min" in the conf file works (no value), but "testnet" does not.
 884 2012-02-23 18:25:37 <btc_novice> seems it should be consistent, that's all.
 885 2012-02-23 18:26:53 <btc_novice> *gavinandresen, oops :)
 886 2012-02-23 18:28:00 <gavinandresen> oops?  just min in the bitcoin.conf doesn't do what you thought it did?
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 888 2012-02-23 18:30:30 <btc_novice> gavinandresen: oops because I spelled your last name wrong. o_O. just min in the bitcoin.conf file does what I thought it would do, but just testnet in bitcoin.conf throws an exception.  It needs to be testnet=0 or testnet=1 to work.
 889 2012-02-23 18:30:53 <btc_novice> I expected just testnet in the file to work like -testnet on the command line does.
 890 2012-02-23 18:31:04 <gavinandresen> file an issue
 891 2012-02-23 18:31:33 <btc_novice> Ok, I will.
 892 2012-02-23 18:31:38 <btc_novice> Thanks.
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 895 2012-02-23 18:34:24 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell sipa : I just pushed a new checkpoint, at block 168,000
 896 2012-02-23 18:34:49 <captain^k> thats a big deal
 897 2012-02-23 18:35:05 <captain^k> thank you :)
 898 2012-02-23 18:35:40 <badluck> checkpoint logged
 899 2012-02-23 18:38:57 <badluck> of course there is a way to prune all that block log
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 901 2012-02-23 18:39:53 <badluck> allow the client to accept any blockchain of equal or greater hash difficulty that compresses all the current balances into one initialization block
 902 2012-02-23 18:40:44 <gmaxwell> badluck: May I suggest you spend some time trying to implement some ideas like that?
 903 2012-02-23 18:40:49 <badluck> the compressified one would just be one notch higher in the precedence, as long as it meets those conditions - of being a faithful continuation of the prime chain and at least X blocks went by
 904 2012-02-23 18:41:12 <badluck> gmaxwell: yes ill research it some more
 905 2012-02-23 18:41:43 <gmaxwell> Suggesting it is fine and all— but I could spew out ideas like that about as fast as I can type. Proving their security and implementing them is the hard part— and you'd learn about what can and can't work in the process.
 906 2012-02-23 18:42:01 <badluck> gmaxwell: your aversion to discussing change is well known
 907 2012-02-23 18:42:30 <badluck> i know your sensors prefer change of incremental magnitude <= heuristic_threshold
 908 2012-02-23 18:42:39 <badluck> hehe j/k bro
 909 2012-02-23 18:43:16 <wumpus> sigh, indeed
 910 2012-02-23 18:43:54 <gmaxwell> I did that because he's that many-named troll who was "doxing" coingenuity and wasting a bunch of time— I didn't realize who he was until his 'well known' comment caused me to go look.
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 914 2012-02-23 18:51:19 <captain^k> well spotted :)
 915 2012-02-23 18:52:27 tower is now known as camtwr
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 919 2012-02-23 19:03:17 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: should I expect getalltxns+getblock_full in 0.6 or 0.7?
 920 2012-02-23 19:03:37 <luke-jr> (or is that still undecided?)
 921 2012-02-23 19:03:43 <gavinandresen> no 0.6
 922 2012-02-23 19:03:49 <gavinandresen> err, not 0.6
 923 2012-02-23 19:03:58 <gavinandresen> 0.6 should be considered feature-frozen
 924 2012-02-23 19:05:16 JRWR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 925 2012-02-23 19:05:16 <luke-jr> ok, I wasn't sure if those counted as bugfixes to the new getblock feature or not
 926 2012-02-23 19:05:28 <luke-jr> since it's mostly useless otherwise
 927 2012-02-23 19:06:17 <luke-jr> (not arguing, just explaining why I asked :p)
 928 2012-02-23 19:06:32 <gavinandresen> I used the new getblock feature just this morning to make sure the timestamps around block 168,000 were reasonable
 929 2012-02-23 19:07:00 <jrmithdobbs> hrm, this is recent: cc1plus: warning: -Wformat-security ignored without -Wformat [-Wformat-security]
 930 2012-02-23 19:07:10 <jrmithdobbs> want to fix makefile.unix? ;p
 931 2012-02-23 19:07:33 JRWR has joined
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 934 2012-02-23 19:09:02 <luke-jr> http://pastebin.com/EB0MnGdx <-- wtf is this conflict O.O
 935 2012-02-23 19:10:02 <luke-jr> never seen a conflict as scary looking as that…
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 939 2012-02-23 19:13:31 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-02-23_19:12:11.38585 trying connection 31.147.181.34:8333 lastseen=-0.1hrs lasttry=-369451.2hrs
 940 2012-02-23 19:13:34 <jrmithdobbs> um what
 941 2012-02-23 19:14:45 <jrmithdobbs> was there time changes that makes my addr.dat nonsensical or something?
 942 2012-02-23 19:15:11 <jrmithdobbs> just upgraded from .5.0.2 (iirc) to HEAD
 943 2012-02-23 19:15:22 <gmaxwell> Last try being a crazy value just means you've never tried it
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 946 2012-02-23 19:17:21 <jrmithdobbs> ok, just never noticed
 947 2012-02-23 19:17:28 <jrmithdobbs> teach me to read logs
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 951 2012-02-23 19:20:12 <swulf--> a bit off topic, but wondering if anyone's interested: i'm trying to devise a strategy for proof of work that maintains these constraints: 1) each solution takes roughly the same amount of time regardless of computing power (i.e., problem gets harder), 2) each *node* has a different difficulty so that it takes me the same time as it does you with different amounts of computing power, and 3) is still verifiable via a distributed net
 952 2012-02-23 19:20:23 <swulf--> figure bitcoin guys are the best to ask, all things considered..
 953 2012-02-23 19:20:40 <bulletbill> question about tx with same hash (generation in block 91812 & 91842) (http://blockchain.info/tx-index/144116/d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599)
 954 2012-02-23 19:20:40 <bulletbill> i'm assuming the first generation in 91812 would be valid and the second one would be 'lost'. my question is: what does the client do currently when it sees this? is this something that is checked now and prevented?
 955 2012-02-23 19:21:16 <swulf--> weird that there's a collision in blocks that are so close
 956 2012-02-23 19:22:36 <bulletbill> wierd that there is a collision at all. this has been discussed on the forum. though no resolution. if i'm writing a payment system, what do i do when i see this? hoping gavinandresen/jgarzik/etc can shed some light
 957 2012-02-23 19:23:16 <swulf--> its kinda interesting that the recipient is the same address,too
 958 2012-02-23 19:23:19 <sipa> live-updated list of reachable nodes: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt
 959 2012-02-23 19:23:46 <luke-jr> bulletbill: the current behaviour is exploitable; in the future, blocks will be required to include their height to prevent collisions
 960 2012-02-23 19:23:50 <swulf--> sipa: no column headers :(
 961 2012-02-23 19:23:56 <sipa> swulf--: tabs
 962 2012-02-23 19:23:59 <sipa> oh
 963 2012-02-23 19:24:01 <sipa> second
 964 2012-02-23 19:24:14 <swulf--> sipa: what do the #s mean
 965 2012-02-23 19:24:17 <luke-jr> bulletbill: basically, right now you want to consider the 1st one valid *until* the 2nd one; then that one becomes valid
 966 2012-02-23 19:24:20 <swulf--> 99.99% of what? :)
 967 2012-02-23 19:24:32 <jrmithdobbs> 100.00% 100.00% 99.97% 99.67%   99.66%  60000 "/Satoshi:0.6.0/"
 968 2012-02-23 19:24:47 <swulf--> guessing the 32400 is the port number
 969 2012-02-23 19:24:59 <swulf--> nope, nvm
 970 2012-02-23 19:25:05 <swulf--> ports with the ip, as it should be
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 973 2012-02-23 19:26:48 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: that's pretty damned real time considering i had just upgraded that node less than 30 min ago
 974 2012-02-23 19:27:23 <bulletbill> luke-jr: interesting. so i see the first, and credit the user 50btc. the user now does whatever they want with that money. there is no chance of loss for me, right? essentially, the second time the transaction appears it can't be a 25btc credit (thereby making me lose 25 if the user already withdrew)...
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 977 2012-02-23 19:27:41 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: my crawler visits the entire network in approximately 20 minutes
 978 2012-02-23 19:27:59 <sipa> (20000 nodes)
 979 2012-02-23 19:28:00 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: what are the values?
 980 2012-02-23 19:28:11 <swulf--> sipa, this list isn't for all connected clients right?
 981 2012-02-23 19:28:21 <jrmithdobbs> swulf--: all connectable
 982 2012-02-23 19:28:35 <sipa> the crawlers bans nodes if they are persistently bad
 983 2012-02-23 19:28:46 <swulf--> ah, so even though i'm connected, it may be that i'm behind a firewall and thats why i'm not on this list?
 984 2012-02-23 19:29:07 <sipa> the percentages are availability in exponential windows with time factors 2 hours, 8 hours, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month
 985 2012-02-23 19:29:17 <luke-jr> bulletbill: there is chance of loss
 986 2012-02-23 19:29:18 <sipa> swulf--: indeed
 987 2012-02-23 19:29:50 <sipa> though the 1-month was only enabled today, and the numbers were copies from the 1 weeks stats
 988 2012-02-23 19:30:16 <bulletbill> luke-jr: crap.
 989 2012-02-23 19:30:36 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: loss how?  The person who created the dup coinbase will lose coins....
 990 2012-02-23 19:30:51 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that's loss…
 991 2012-02-23 19:31:00 <gavinandresen> but bulletbill doesn't care about that
 992 2012-02-23 19:31:05 <luke-jr> bulletbill: in practical terms, I think if you ignore the 2nd one, you're safe
 993 2012-02-23 19:31:26 <luke-jr> not 100% sure tho
 994 2012-02-23 19:31:36 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: wondering what's making the 1week/month stat on that node so low
 995 2012-02-23 19:31:49 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: since i know bitcoind hasn't even been restarted in the last month until just a minute ago ;p
 996 2012-02-23 19:31:53 <luke-jr> bulletbill: actually, when you see the 2nd one, you'll want to restart the 100 block count
 997 2012-02-23 19:31:57 <gavinandresen> to answer bulletbill's original question: the satoshi code will overwrite the second un-spent duplicate transaction, so the first one becomes un-spendable
 998 2012-02-23 19:32:12 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: maybe its connect slots were full?
 999 2012-02-23 19:32:28 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: oh good point, they do fill up occassionally even at 512
1000 2012-02-23 19:32:33 <luke-jr> bulletbill: if that 2nd block gets orphaned, the entire network is in trouble, tho
1001 2012-02-23 19:33:07 <gavinandresen> bulletbill: ... and we're going to make duplicate coinbases illegal soon, to avoid possible exploits that could happen if they are partially spent and involved in complicated blockchain re-organizations
1002 2012-02-23 19:33:13 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: your aggregator isn't doing any dns ptr lookups where you might be trying to hit an ipv6 address you can't route to, right? ;p
1003 2012-02-23 19:33:30 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: no IPv6 support for now
1004 2012-02-23 19:33:39 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: eg ptr then AAAA record giving you the ipv6 which bitcoin isn't listening on
1005 2012-02-23 19:33:57 <jrmithdobbs> (i've been having ipv6 issues on the host)
1006 2012-02-23 19:34:04 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: all addresses come from bitcoin's addr packets
1007 2012-02-23 19:34:12 <sipa> there is no dns lookup involved
1008 2012-02-23 19:34:22 <jrmithdobbs> k
1009 2012-02-23 19:34:29 <jrmithdobbs> pretty cool
1010 2012-02-23 19:34:33 <bulletbill> gavinandresen: luke-jr: thanks for response. this one particular instance is a generation, so not too worried about that. what i am worried is about a send from A -> B that exhibits the same behavior (e.g. 40btc the first time and then 20btc the second time. invalidating the first send). or is that an entirely different problem?
1011 2012-02-23 19:35:25 <luke-jr> bulletbill: if the send is different, the hash will also be different
1012 2012-02-23 19:35:25 <gavinandresen> bulletbill: the only way to get non-generation duplication transaction ids is to spend two generation duplicate transaction ids
1013 2012-02-23 19:36:11 <bulletbill> lol. good. that's comforting.
1014 2012-02-23 19:36:18 <gavinandresen> bulletbill: ... and spend exactly the same number of coins to the same address both times (with the only input being the duplicate coinbase)
1015 2012-02-23 19:36:56 <jrmithdobbs> barring any preimage attacks on sha2*
1016 2012-02-23 19:36:58 <sipa> using the same PRNG when creating the signatures
1017 2012-02-23 19:37:06 <gavinandresen> right, all that too
1018 2012-02-23 19:37:09 <sipa> as ECDSA signatures are not deterministic
1019 2012-02-23 19:37:19 <luke-jr> sipa: they could be made to be so, no?
1020 2012-02-23 19:37:22 <sipa> luke-jr: yes
1021 2012-02-23 19:37:42 <sipa> Ed25519 has a construction for making them deterministic
1022 2012-02-23 19:38:03 quilla has joined
1023 2012-02-23 19:38:05 <luke-jr> anyhow, Eligius now supports *for testing only* getmemorypool, currently renamed to test_getmemorypool
1024 2012-02-23 19:38:22 <luke-jr> including submitting shares (currently must be unmodified except ntime/nonce)
1025 2012-02-23 19:38:53 <sipa> so you could connect a p2pool node to it?
1026 2012-02-23 19:39:03 <luke-jr> sipa: unlikely, as p2pool modifies the coinbase txn
1027 2012-02-23 19:39:22 <luke-jr> with some hacking, you could probably make it workable
1028 2012-02-23 19:39:32 <luke-jr> it would mine on Eligius, not p2pool, of course
1029 2012-02-23 19:39:52 <bulletbill> gavinandresen: so basically, the net effect would be that the same amount of coins get delivered regardless, jsut that the coins are now 'newer' :)
1030 2012-02-23 19:40:16 <jrmithdobbs> bulletbill: assuming all of the above, yes
1031 2012-02-23 19:40:50 <luke-jr> basically
1032 2012-02-23 19:40:54 <bulletbill> so, i'm not really seeing any attack vector here, right?
1033 2012-02-23 19:41:10 <bulletbill> other than annoyance of revolving coin
1034 2012-02-23 19:41:16 <jrmithdobbs> not that I can think of
1035 2012-02-23 19:41:34 <luke-jr> bulletbill: well, if the new txn gets orphaned, about half of the entire bitcoin network breaks, and opens a can of worms; until we fix it
1036 2012-02-23 19:41:38 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: Ed25519 is pretty cool stuff
1037 2012-02-23 19:41:48 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: definitely
1038 2012-02-23 19:41:53 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: can't do key recovery without a minor modification though.
1039 2012-02-23 19:42:06 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i wish someone would supply some libc patches for dnscurve already
1040 2012-02-23 19:42:19 JRWR has joined
1041 2012-02-23 19:42:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: but with only some minor modification it *can* do key recovery
1042 2012-02-23 19:42:29 <gmaxwell> The place where the public key is included in the hash of the message needs to either be replaced with the address ... or the public key need to be omitted.
1043 2012-02-23 19:42:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: formulate things positively :p
1044 2012-02-23 19:42:31 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i'm not sure that's a bad thing any how
1045 2012-02-23 19:42:41 <bulletbill> luke-jr: that is in the case where there are transactions further down in the chain that use that one as prevout
1046 2012-02-23 19:42:44 <bulletbill> ?
1047 2012-02-23 19:42:54 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well in our usage key recover is super-useful. For some applications its not.
1048 2012-02-23 19:42:57 <luke-jr> bulletbill: ?
1049 2012-02-23 19:43:01 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh you mean for use in bitcoin, nm
1050 2012-02-23 19:43:02 <jrmithdobbs> haha
1051 2012-02-23 19:43:04 goxxed has joined
1052 2012-02-23 19:43:20 <sipa> Bitcoin 2.0 :)
1053 2012-02-23 19:43:55 <bulletbill> luke-jr: well, if the new txn gets orphaned, only subsequent txs that rely on it would break? or am i missing something?
1054 2012-02-23 19:44:11 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1059 2012-02-23 19:54:44 <quilla> lol ive registered gmaxwell on some notorious child porn sites with his real name and info and a prepaid card. using his laurel tree ln address in herndon, va. when the registrations are dumped, theyll be looking for him like pete townsend. lmao hahah
1060 2012-02-23 19:54:49 <quilla> lo-to-the-ol
1061 2012-02-23 19:54:51 <quilla> haha
1062 2012-02-23 19:54:53 <quilla> l8r
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1069 2012-02-23 20:07:43 <jrmithdobbs> err whoa
1070 2012-02-23 20:07:45 <jrmithdobbs> http://t.co/58XT7xbS
1071 2012-02-23 20:08:04 <jrmithdobbs> HMAC proof flawed =/
1072 2012-02-23 20:10:30 armariables has joined
1073 2012-02-23 20:10:57 <armariables> are bitcoin releases signed?
1074 2012-02-23 20:11:03 <luke-jr> usually
1075 2012-02-23 20:11:08 Clipse has joined
1076 2012-02-23 20:11:19 <luke-jr> we use an experimental program called gitian to do release builds
1077 2012-02-23 20:11:28 <armariables> I'm having trouble finding a .sig for 0.5.2 win32 .exe
1078 2012-02-23 20:11:32 <luke-jr> it allows multiple independent parties to build the code themselves and get the same output
1079 2012-02-23 20:11:53 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoin-0.5.2/SHA256SUMS.asc
1080 2012-02-23 20:11:54 <armariables> hmmm..
1081 2012-02-23 20:12:28 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/tree/master/0.5.2-win32 too for .sig I guess
1082 2012-02-23 20:12:41 * armariables verifing
1083 2012-02-23 20:12:49 vigilyn has joined
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1086 2012-02-23 20:17:20 <armariables> luke-jr: you are outside of my web of trust, 0x665fc11dd53e9583 is you, I assume?
1087 2012-02-23 20:17:31 <goxxed> wow
1088 2012-02-23 20:18:26 <luke-jr> armariables: yes
1089 2012-02-23 20:18:46 <luke-jr> armariables: note that IRC is not a secure medium for verifying identity
1090 2012-02-23 20:19:11 <armariables> luke-jr: understood, but it adds to the barriers needed for forge a release
1091 2012-02-23 20:19:21 <armariables> to forge
1092 2012-02-23 20:20:16 <goxxed> people are getting g0oxxed]
1093 2012-02-23 20:20:35 <armariables> luke-jr: not adding any any trust to your key, just importing it
1094 2012-02-23 20:24:30 larsivi has joined
1095 2012-02-23 20:25:30 RazielZ has joined
1096 2012-02-23 20:26:56 <armariables> woot! my download looks legit
1097 2012-02-23 20:27:04 <armariables> luke-jr: thanks for everything you do
1098 2012-02-23 20:27:45 gwillen is now known as fsy42351rsgw3
1099 2012-02-23 20:28:51 fsy42351rsgw3 is now known as gwillen
1100 2012-02-23 20:29:16 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1101 2012-02-23 20:30:20 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened issue 889 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/889>
1102 2012-02-23 20:30:38 <goxxed> thx gavinandresen
1103 2012-02-23 20:32:08 armariables has left ()
1104 2012-02-23 20:39:30 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1105 2012-02-23 20:40:29 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened pull request 890 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/890>
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1109 2012-02-23 20:51:52 <coingenuity> ;;more copumpkin
1110 2012-02-23 20:51:52 <gribble> itemprop="image" content="/images/google_favicon_128.png"><title>Google</title><script>window.google={kEI:"taZGT_2yMIvbiQLliMn_CA",getEI:function(a){var d;while(a&&!(a.getAttribute&&(d=a.getAttribute("eid"))))a=a.parentNode;return d||google.kEI},https:function(){return (11 more messages)
1111 2012-02-23 20:51:54 conman has joined
1112 2012-02-23 20:52:00 <copumpkin> oh
1113 2012-02-23 20:52:03 <copumpkin> I see
1114 2012-02-23 20:52:15 <coingenuity> apologies to observers, that was a demonstration :(
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1126 2012-02-23 21:21:26 <libcoin> Considering buying some plane tickets - anyone who knows if BitCon 2012 will be, and if so if it will be in San Antonio or Calif ?
1127 2012-02-23 21:21:40 <Tuxavant_> i vote for las vegas
1128 2012-02-23 21:24:07 <libcoin> well, I guess you mean you bet it will be in Las Vegas...
1129 2012-02-23 21:31:09 <luke-jr> I vote for Tampa.
1130 2012-02-23 21:31:19 <luke-jr> lots of Bitcoiners near Tampa <.<
1131 2012-02-23 21:31:55 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
1132 2012-02-23 21:32:50 <copumpkin> luke-jr: will you shoot me if I show up? :(
1133 2012-02-23 21:32:58 <copumpkin> cause I'd prefer not to get shot
1134 2012-02-23 21:33:00 <luke-jr> copumpkin: if you attack me
1135 2012-02-23 21:33:04 draco49 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1136 2012-02-23 21:33:05 <copumpkin> wasn't planning on it
1137 2012-02-23 21:33:09 <luke-jr> good
1138 2012-02-23 21:33:12 <luke-jr> I'd hate to have to shoot someone
1139 2012-02-23 21:33:22 <copumpkin> sounds like we have a deal then
1140 2012-02-23 21:33:31 <sipa> Can I join that deal?
1141 2012-02-23 21:33:42 <luke-jr> I'd just hate it more, to have to shoot someone and not be able to ;)
1142 2012-02-23 21:33:47 <luke-jr> sipa: :D
1143 2012-02-23 21:33:50 <libcoin> It is announced as in San Antonio in March 17-18, but info from the conference people is not that clear
1144 2012-02-23 21:35:31 <luke-jr> that soon? :/
1145 2012-02-23 21:36:10 * luke-jr ponders
1146 2012-02-23 21:38:58 <sipa> A bit too pricy for me to get there, I'm afraid.
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1153 2012-02-23 21:46:31 <jgarzik> sipa: so, hosts at the top of seeds.txt have best uptime?
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1158 2012-02-23 22:00:43 <sipa> jgarzik: yes
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1164 2012-02-23 22:07:38 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: you sure it's sorting right?
1165 2012-02-23 22:07:47 <sipa> yes
1166 2012-02-23 22:07:49 <jrmithdobbs> 204.62.14.161:8333      100.00% 99.73%  99.50%  99.67%  99.66%  50100 ""
1167 2012-02-23 22:07:49 <jrmithdobbs> 46.4.95.247:8333        95.55%  97.28%  98.78%  99.52%  99.65%  50100 ""
1168 2012-02-23 22:08:01 <sipa> it's sorted on the value of the fifth number
1169 2012-02-23 22:08:14 <jrmithdobbs> so it is
1170 2012-02-23 22:08:23 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1171 2012-02-23 22:08:42 <jrmithdobbs> i'm surprised my node is in the first 100
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1177 2012-02-23 22:27:40 <andrew_wmf> the san antonio conference does not inspire confidence
1178 2012-02-23 22:34:00 <libcoin> andrew_wmf: agree - I think I'll skip it :/
1179 2012-02-23 22:34:36 <andrew_wmf> yeah, don't get me wrong i'd be willing to fly there if something happened but
1180 2012-02-23 22:35:02 <andrew_wmf> it doesnt look like it is going to happen unless at starbucks
1181 2012-02-23 22:35:08 <libcoin> same here, but it is in 3 week and there is no program, and radio silence from the organizers
1182 2012-02-23 22:36:10 <libcoin> and latest at the forum there were a suggestion to move it to San Francisco the 3rd... again too short notice
1183 2012-02-23 22:36:30 <andrew_wmf> ^ lol
1184 2012-02-23 22:37:03 <andrew_wmf> sf meetups have had 10-20 people in previous months
1185 2012-02-23 22:37:54 JRWR has joined
1186 2012-02-23 22:38:02 <libcoin> nice, but it still takes a little more to organize a workshop/conference
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1189 2012-02-23 22:42:51 <helo> announcement a month in advance would be nice to allow better air rates
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1191 2012-02-23 22:43:39 <libcoin> Yup
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1202 2012-02-23 23:05:48 <luke-jr> [Thursday, February 23, 2012] [5:51:26 PM] <ljrbot> Txn d0f4df70fa179395c076ead51b01b77cc7b5803a5190415c991c3c5dc419281f: 1JF5A4MG87HXs8tknMxvAWQkrWHYqkKS33 0.09745 BTC, 3NUy5bPEnQ9kom3mWYcQ1CVa1qYTSPW14N 0.00001 BTC
1203 2012-02-23 23:05:57 <luke-jr> ^ P2SH now supported by #bitcoin-watch :D
1204 2012-02-23 23:06:34 <luke-jr> (don't send to that address, I'll be destroying it soon)
1205 2012-02-23 23:07:03 mcorlett is now known as piuk
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