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   2 2012-02-28 06:21:25 <nanotube> BlueMatt: well, arguably, that'll happen the next day after someone other than the researchers acquires access to it. and can program it. so... we can all withdraw our money from the banks long before then. :)
   3 2012-02-28 06:21:42 <BlueMatt> well, yea
   4 2012-02-28 06:22:19 <phrontist> if the advent of quantum computing isn't welcome to you, your priorities are all out of whack :-)
   5 2012-02-28 06:22:38 <nanotube> hehe
   6 2012-02-28 06:23:01 <BlueMatt> dont think anyone said that, but it does throw a wrench in all the work that has been done on public-key crypto systems and general security on the internet over the ages...
   7 2012-02-28 06:23:12 <phrontist> sure
   8 2012-02-28 06:23:13 <gmaxwell> No, it doesn't.
   9 2012-02-28 06:23:26 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: doesnt make it impossible, just throws a wrench in it
  10 2012-02-28 06:23:31 <nanotube> yea, just as the horseless carriage threw a wrench into the horsed carriage. ;)
  11 2012-02-28 06:23:35 <copumpkin> depends on the type of crypto
  12 2012-02-28 06:23:41 <BlueMatt> exactly
  13 2012-02-28 06:23:49 <nanotube> and the textile workers threw a sabot into the automated loom
  14 2012-02-28 06:23:53 <gmaxwell> "we _actually_ have something capable of being called a quantum computer" isn't even remotely close to saying "we have something that could crack modern asymmetric cryptosystems"
  15 2012-02-28 06:23:53 <BlueMatt> nanotube: and p2p threw a wrench in media distribution...
  16 2012-02-28 06:24:01 <copumpkin> oh man, a sabot
  17 2012-02-28 06:24:02 <nanotube> </vague recollection of the original sabotage> :)
  18 2012-02-28 06:24:08 <nanotube> BlueMatt: right :)
  19 2012-02-28 06:24:29 <nanotube> one wonders why we say 'throw a wrench in' as opposed to 'throw a sabot in'
  20 2012-02-28 06:24:30 <phrontist> any new massively parallel computation mechanism would be disruptive, though
  21 2012-02-28 06:24:30 <nanotube> hehe
  22 2012-02-28 06:24:34 <phrontist> DNA wang tiles
  23 2012-02-28 06:24:41 <phrontist> or whatever
  24 2012-02-28 06:24:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: at no point did anyone say we were close to making a computationally-capable quantum computer at scale
  25 2012-02-28 06:24:59 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: e.g. for the modified Shor's algorithm for the DLP requires something on the order of 4k qbits, and 2^32 operations/gates, and thats without any error correction.
  26 2012-02-28 06:25:26 <BlueMatt> just computationally-capable for like 1 qbit...
  27 2012-02-28 06:25:58 <gmaxwell> If such a device is even physically possible is not even known for sure (e.g. vacuum noise could limit coherence scope/time).
  28 2012-02-28 06:26:23 * BlueMatt has a really strong sense of deja vu atm...
  29 2012-02-28 06:26:44 * BlueMatt has a feeling if he greps logs, he could find statements so close to what gmaxwell just said, it would be scary...
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  31 2012-02-28 06:27:00 <gmaxwell> And such people start to actually scale up devices, we already have alternative cryptosystems which are fine.
  32 2012-02-28 06:27:12 <BlueMatt> yep
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  34 2012-02-28 06:29:32 * phrontist is still banking on self-assembling wang tiles
  35 2012-02-28 06:29:40 <phrontist> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_tiles
  36 2012-02-28 06:29:42 <phrontist> so much cooler
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  38 2012-02-28 06:30:41 <nanotube> yes, i do have a feeling that you've mentioned these details before, gmaxwell :) not that they don't bear repeating. ;)
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  43 2012-02-28 06:51:39 <splatster> Quantum Computers = Future Mining Rigs!
  44 2012-02-28 06:53:12 <copumpkin> I doubt it
  45 2012-02-28 06:53:18 <splatster> shhhh
  46 2012-02-28 06:53:28 <splatster> Don't blow my buzz.
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  51 2012-02-28 07:16:21 <devrandom> mmm... wang tiles
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 117 2012-02-28 11:11:49 <iddo> sipa: ok, i'm just wondering if there are specific useful scenarios for this that i'm missing
 118 2012-02-28 11:12:06 <iddo> oops pressed uparrow by mistake
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 144 2012-02-28 12:01:53 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa reopened issue 881 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/881> || dooglus opened issue 909 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/909>
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 152 2012-02-28 12:38:01 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: fanquake opened pull request 910 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/910>
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 235 2012-02-28 16:07:19 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: krishKM reopened issue 881 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/881>
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 356 2012-02-28 19:44:15 <theymos> Is the duplicate coinbase plan to prohibit duplicate coinbase hashes now and require block numbers in coinbases later, was "numbers in coinbases" part abandoned?
 357 2012-02-28 19:44:45 <theymos> s/later, was/later, or was/
 358 2012-02-28 19:51:11 <gavinandresen> theymos:  I think the plan aught to be "Get 50+% of the mining pools to agree to implement the quick fix ASAP.  And take our time rolling out the block number in the coinbase change."
 359 2012-02-28 19:51:35 <gavinandresen> Whether "take our time" means starting with the 0.6 or 0.7 release I don't really care, as long as sipa's fix is in place quickly.
 360 2012-02-28 19:51:49 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 361 2012-02-28 19:53:45 <theymos> OK. Seems reasonable. I was just wondering whether the block number solution had been totally abandoned -- I like that solution better for the long-term.
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 401 2012-02-28 21:02:40 <gavinandresen> Quiet... too quiet....
 402 2012-02-28 21:02:49 <sipa> Be careful, it's a trap!
 403 2012-02-28 21:02:56 Someguy123 has joined
 404 2012-02-28 21:03:17 <gavinandresen> I KNEW I shouldn't have responded to that FormSpring question I got about the CIA
 405 2012-02-28 21:04:15 <imsaguy2> The "What is your private key?" question?
 406 2012-02-28 21:05:43 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 409 2012-02-28 21:07:29 <gavinandresen> So I wanted to talk about:  duplicate coinbase.  0.6 release.  Windows.  And multisig next-steps....
 410 2012-02-28 21:08:52 att has joined
 411 2012-02-28 21:09:22 fpgaminer has joined
 412 2012-02-28 21:09:40 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  you asked on the mailing list why not a two-stage "express support" then "implement" rollout of the coinbase fix
 413 2012-02-28 21:10:12 <gavinandresen> ... and I think the answer is "because that will take longer and this is a potential vulnerability that needs fixing ASAP"
 414 2012-02-28 21:10:29 <gavinandresen> (is luke here?)
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 418 2012-02-28 21:13:39 <gavinandresen> Something odd's up with IRC, I'm not seeing my own messages in the logs on bitcoinstats
 419 2012-02-28 21:14:47 <RedEmerald> i see you talking
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 421 2012-02-28 21:15:23 <gavinandresen> I see messages from sipa and imsaguy2 in the logs that I don't see realtime....
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 426 2012-02-28 21:16:55 <gavinandresen> yup, definitely broken
 427 2012-02-28 21:17:13 <coingenuity> gavinandresen: yeah....
 428 2012-02-28 21:17:20 <coingenuity> i just had my bounce take a poop on me
 429 2012-02-28 21:17:37 <coingenuity> followed by freenode not realizing my socket was half-open and i was no longer connected...
 430 2012-02-28 21:17:42 <coingenuity> and then a huge split
 431 2012-02-28 21:17:57 <coingenuity> cockroach got in a mainframe somewhere..
 432 2012-02-28 21:18:42 Someguy1234 has joined
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 434 2012-02-28 21:18:46 <gavinandresen> I don't know nuthin about IRC, will I make things better or worse if I completely disconnect then reconnect?
 435 2012-02-28 21:19:24 <coingenuity> gavinandresen: if you're OK right now, just let it resolve itself
 436 2012-02-28 21:19:34 <coingenuity> freenode was not happy when i restarted my bnc a minute ago ;)
 437 2012-02-28 21:19:34 <gavinandresen> coingenuity: thanks
 438 2012-02-28 21:19:41 <sipa> At best, you end up on the same side as you are now :)
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 441 2012-02-28 21:19:59 <coingenuity> if you do get disconnected /msg nickserv ghost gavinandresen *your password* and it will kill the old socket
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 450 2012-02-28 21:24:15 <gavinandresen> sipa:  while we're waiting for IRC to get sane... I was doing some light research on alternatives to berkeley db. sqlite3 looks interesting, although I'm not sure we'd see any fewer "database corrupted" problems with it  (see, e.g. http://www.sqlite.org/lockingv3.html#how_to_corrupt )
 451 2012-02-28 21:25:15 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: if it goes towards something sql-based, it might be nice to be able to let people supply their own backends. then scaling-up would become a lot easier for db types who want to run RAC badassery
 452 2012-02-28 21:25:44 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: By the by, is there an issue for the coinbase fix you were discussing earlier?
 453 2012-02-28 21:25:48 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic: sure.  I'm just looking for a better-for-desktop-users solution
 454 2012-02-28 21:25:53 <midnightmagic> apparently I'm still github clueless..
 455 2012-02-28 21:26:02 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: awesome.
 456 2012-02-28 21:26:27 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic: is there an issue:  good question, there aught to be
 457 2012-02-28 21:26:34 <sipa> There isn't.
 458 2012-02-28 21:26:57 Someguy123 has quit (Excess Flood)
 459 2012-02-28 21:27:28 <midnightmagic> sipa, gavinandresen, oh, that would explain why I can't find it then. how about just the patch? name of the branch with sipa's fix?
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 464 2012-02-28 21:28:12 <sipa> midnightmagic: nooverwritetx
 465 2012-02-28 21:28:25 <sipa> it's referenced in the BIP
 466 2012-02-28 21:28:50 <midnightmagic> sipa: okay
 467 2012-02-28 21:29:36 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: ping?
 468 2012-02-28 21:30:02 agricocb has joined
 469 2012-02-28 21:30:37 <midnightmagic> sipa: In the event of a reorg is the only time when a block containing a dupe txn would be accepted by clients..?
 470 2012-02-28 21:30:59 <sipa> midnightmagic: parse error
 471 2012-02-28 21:31:30 stalled has joined
 472 2012-02-28 21:31:36 <midnightmagic> sipa: Under what conditions would the problem that nooverwritetx solves be exploitable?
 473 2012-02-28 21:32:30 <midnightmagic> sipa: Oh, nevermind, I'm looking at the commit. This is the old dupe coinbase issue.
 474 2012-02-28 21:32:52 <sipa> It's more than that, but the root of the problem is a duplicate coinbase, yes.
 475 2012-02-28 21:34:04 Bwild has joined
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 477 2012-02-28 21:34:55 <gavinandresen> ... still too quiet....
 478 2012-02-28 21:35:12 olp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 479 2012-02-28 21:35:21 <sipa> Maybe announcements should be sent somewhat sooner.
 480 2012-02-28 21:35:35 <sipa> Or severe punishments for those who fail to show up.
 481 2012-02-28 21:35:49 <gavinandresen> Carrots might work better than sticks
 482 2012-02-28 21:36:05 twmz__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 483 2012-02-28 21:36:06 <___> Has it been discussed how the upcoming P2SH change could make the nooverwritetx issue much easier to exploit?
 484 2012-02-28 21:36:25 <gavinandresen> ... and announcements earlier is a good idea.  Too bad the project leader is so flaky
 485 2012-02-28 21:36:38 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: ?
 486 2012-02-28 21:36:57 swulf-- has joined
 487 2012-02-28 21:37:03 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  you asked on the mailing list why not a two-stage "express support" then "implement" rollout of the coinbase fix
 488 2012-02-28 21:37:15 <gavinandresen> ... and I think the answer is "because that will take longer and this is a potential vulnerability that needs fixing ASAP"
 489 2012-02-28 21:37:44 <luke-jr> OK, but I suspect smaller miners will be more hesistant to enforce it since it could risk orphans
 490 2012-02-28 21:37:59 swulf--1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 491 2012-02-28 21:38:01 Someguy123 has joined
 492 2012-02-28 21:38:20 <sipa> I've already talked to [Tycho] and slush about it. They would agree to patch if others do the same.
 493 2012-02-28 21:38:26 <luke-jr> sounds good
 494 2012-02-28 21:38:53 olp has joined
 495 2012-02-28 21:38:57 <gavinandresen> Great, how quickly do "we" think it could happen?
 496 2012-02-28 21:39:33 <gavinandresen> Specific dates tend to get people to pay attention....
 497 2012-02-28 21:40:18 <gavinandresen> (and rolling out the dup coinbase fix before the P2SH switchover date would squash any potential issues)
 498 2012-02-28 21:40:30 ___ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 499 2012-02-28 21:40:43 <theymos> Is the new rule going to first appear in a public 0.5.2.1 release (or whatever), or are miners going to do it first?
 500 2012-02-28 21:41:24 <sipa> I'd feel most confortable with miners implementing it first.
 501 2012-02-28 21:41:42 <gavinandresen> I'd like to release a 0.5.whatever and a 0.6rcwhatever on or very shortly after
 502 2012-02-28 21:41:45 <sipa> Though there is no problem with merging the fix already testnet-only
 503 2012-02-28 21:42:35 <gavinandresen> Well, if we pick a date that we think the miners can make then we can release code that is  if (fTestNet || GetTime() > ....) ....
 504 2012-02-28 21:42:45 ___ has joined
 505 2012-02-28 21:43:07 <sipa> That would fork testnet again :)
 506 2012-02-28 21:43:21 <gavinandresen> testnet forks are good, keeps people on their toes
 507 2012-02-28 21:43:27 <midnightmagic> sipa: In the linked Midas Money article, he says, "This is not really a “double spend attack” in the traditional sense. Alice gets no monetary advantage from this particular attack." But wouldn't the redirection of the coinbase provide Alice with additional benefit the same way a normal double-spend would?
 508 2012-02-28 21:43:36 <gavinandresen> By the way theymos:  I've been meaning to ask you if you could update the testnet blockexplorer bitcoind.....
 509 2012-02-28 21:43:53 <sipa> midnightmagic: yes, but mining the dupe coinbase in the beginning costs more than what you can gain.
 510 2012-02-28 21:43:59 <sipa> midnightmagic: or rather, the lost coinbase incode.
 511 2012-02-28 21:44:02 <sipa> income
 512 2012-02-28 21:44:16 <midnightmagic> sipa: Very good, just making sure I'm not in Twilight Zone land again..
 513 2012-02-28 21:44:49 jaypsmith has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 514 2012-02-28 21:45:09 <sipa> gavinandresen: How do you normally contact pools? Via the forum, or try to find an email address on their site?
 515 2012-02-28 21:45:29 <theymos> gavinandresen: OK. To the latest git version?
 516 2012-02-28 21:45:38 <gavinandresen> I will forward you the emails I've gathered
 517 2012-02-28 21:45:59 <hsy> i'm just curious, is bitcoin applying as a project for the google summer of code? you would have about a week to make a proposal.
 518 2012-02-28 21:46:05 <gavinandresen> theymos: yes.  Let me know if you need help applying the get* patch....
 519 2012-02-28 21:46:08 <midnightmagic> so far the best way to contact current p2pool users is just in #p2pool
 520 2012-02-28 21:46:23 <gavinandresen> hsy:  who is "you" ?
 521 2012-02-28 21:46:35 <hsy> gavinandresen: well, current developers here :)
 522 2012-02-28 21:46:54 <gavinandresen> hsy:  applying for summer of code is a great idea, want to volunteer to do it?
 523 2012-02-28 21:47:24 <sipa> It'd bring us a bit of funding as well.
 524 2012-02-28 21:47:29 <hsy> gavinandresen: i'm currently working on another applicatoin and can't be an organizer for two, i'm also not a dev for bitcoin, but i'm willing to help
 525 2012-02-28 21:48:10 <gavinandresen> sipa:  you willing to work with hsy to get that done?
 526 2012-02-28 21:48:16 <midnightmagic> I wrote the successful application for Tahoe LAFS's very first GSoC funding, but it requires more than just an application. It needs webpage status, suggested projects, and commitments from mentors.
 527 2012-02-28 21:48:40 <midnightmagic> (assigned mentors, specified communications mediums, etc)
 528 2012-02-28 21:48:45 <hsy> gavinandresen: basically, you need two with google accounts to register at gsoc's "melange" online website. then fill out a form and make some project proposals with associated mentors + backup mentor
 529 2012-02-28 21:49:02 <hsy> gavinandresen: this would e.g. address the question about the "windows devs"
 530 2012-02-28 21:49:21 <sipa> I think the proposals must be rather specific, no?
 531 2012-02-28 21:49:48 <sipa> "Someone to tackle our windows issues" is not a great proposal :)
 532 2012-02-28 21:49:50 <hsy> sipa: yes, but students can bring in their own. i can point you to proposals from accepted projects, they are less specific than you think
 533 2012-02-28 21:49:59 <midnightmagic> yes, which is why the specific suggested projects need specific mentors who have agreed to take them on if a student shows interest
 534 2012-02-28 21:50:02 <hsy> sipa: true
 535 2012-02-28 21:50:26 <gavinandresen> Proposal:  improve my transaction fuzzer to create valid/invalid on-disk block chains for testing
 536 2012-02-28 21:50:33 <midnightmagic> a good outline of GSoC is on the NetBSD GSoC pages, here: http://netbsd-soc.sourceforge.net/
 537 2012-02-28 21:50:47 <gavinandresen> Proposal: some kind of network simulation to test out protocol changes
 538 2012-02-28 21:50:48 <midnightmagic> (like for the proposals)
 539 2012-02-28 21:51:06 swulf--1 has joined
 540 2012-02-28 21:51:12 <hsy> a proposal for an accepted project is here: https://github.com/sympy/sympy/wiki/GSoC-2011-Organization-Application
 541 2012-02-28 21:51:20 ___ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 542 2012-02-28 21:51:26 <Joric> is it true that bitcoin could be illegal just because encryption is illegal in many countries? encryption of any kind
 543 2012-02-28 21:52:04 <hsy> Joric: no, there was an export regulation for the us, but that is, afaik, no longer true
 544 2012-02-28 21:52:09 <midnightmagic> and here: http://wiki.netbsd.org/projects/gsoc/
 545 2012-02-28 21:52:26 <gavinandresen> I think proposals for bitcoin-related things that would be great to have bug aren't in the 'critical path' are a great idea.
 546 2012-02-28 21:52:27 <helo> Schmitt (of google) claimed they abandoned a bitcoin competitor project because it is illegal in many countries
 547 2012-02-28 21:52:47 <midnightmagic> helo: Where?
 548 2012-02-28 21:53:19 <helo> http://www.businessinsider.com/google-once-considered-making-its-own-currency-2012-2
 549 2012-02-28 21:53:50 <BlueMatt> thats not along the lines of bitcoin, but more along the lines of facebook credits
 550 2012-02-28 21:54:03 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 551 2012-02-28 21:54:13 <BlueMatt> (but more generalized)
 552 2012-02-28 21:54:28 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 553 2012-02-28 21:54:34 <luke-jr> Joric: Bitcoin does not use encryption
 554 2012-02-28 21:54:41 <midnightmagic> helo: Thanks.
 555 2012-02-28 21:55:13 <sipa> Well, Google have some people working on Bitcoin-related projects already...
 556 2012-02-28 21:55:20 <Joric> luke-jr, ever heard of public key cryptography?
 557 2012-02-28 21:55:32 <luke-jr> Joric: I know what it is.
 558 2012-02-28 21:55:54 <hsy> sipa: yes, this mike hearn from bitcoinj. improving bitcoinj could also be a possible project.
 559 2012-02-28 21:55:54 * BlueMatt particularly liked the idea of stackexchange advertising, or has that already been discussed?
 560 2012-02-28 21:56:01 graingert is now known as Staatsfeind
 561 2012-02-28 21:56:08 Staatsfeind is now known as graingert
 562 2012-02-28 21:56:10 <Joric> 'Public-key cryptography refers to a cryptographic system requiring two separate keys, one to lock or encrypt the plaintext, and one to unlock or decrypt the cyphertext'
 563 2012-02-28 21:56:11 <BlueMatt> also, it doesnt look like there is much competition (plus we have a lot of people who will upvote us)
 564 2012-02-28 21:56:14 <Joric> thus, encryption
 565 2012-02-28 21:56:20 <helo> haha, i've been convinced multiple times now that bitcoin doesn't, and does, and now doesn't again
 566 2012-02-28 21:56:43 <helo> (use encryption/decryption)
 567 2012-02-28 21:56:43 <sipa> Joric: sorry, but ECDSA is *not* encryption and cannot be used for it
 568 2012-02-28 21:56:59 <BlueMatt> also, whether or not bitcoin "uses" encryption isnt a question that a. we can tell what a judge would argue and b. is not relevant to the meeting...
 569 2012-02-28 21:57:06 <BlueMatt> s/can/cant
 570 2012-02-28 21:57:12 <sipa> Joric: not sure where you read that, but it is only true for some systems, such as RSA, where signatures are "encryption with the private key"
 571 2012-02-28 21:57:24 <helo> oh, didn't realize a meeting was in progress, sorry
 572 2012-02-28 21:57:46 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: what'
 573 2012-02-28 21:57:57 <BlueMatt> what?
 574 2012-02-28 21:57:58 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: what's the stackoverflow advertising idea?
 575 2012-02-28 21:58:09 <gavinandresen> Ads on stackoverflow that ask people to.... ???
 576 2012-02-28 21:58:13 <BlueMatt> the response to the email about the meeting today
 577 2012-02-28 21:58:17 <BlueMatt> just get more developers
 578 2012-02-28 21:58:25 <BlueMatt> (in general, but could result in a win32 dev or two)
 579 2012-02-28 21:58:29 <BlueMatt> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/114442/open-source-advertising-sidebar-1h-2012
 580 2012-02-28 21:58:42 <luke-jr> Joric: Bitcoin does not encrypt or decrypt ever.
 581 2012-02-28 21:58:56 <sipa> luke-jr: it does, when you encrypt your wallet
 582 2012-02-28 21:59:01 <sipa> but that's a client-side issue
 583 2012-02-28 21:59:03 <luke-jr> sipa: that's a client, not Bitcoin itself…
 584 2012-02-28 22:00:00 <BlueMatt> all we need is a nice little graphic, and maybe a bitcoin.org/howtohelp or something...
 585 2012-02-28 22:00:10 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: good idea.
 586 2012-02-28 22:00:29 <BlueMatt> (which had already been mentioned once or twice, to add things like links to transifex, github, etc, etc, etc on the bitcoin.org site)
 587 2012-02-28 22:00:46 _h4ckm3 is now known as h4ckm3
 588 2012-02-28 22:00:48 <XMPPwocky> why not bug bounties?
 589 2012-02-28 22:00:56 <BlueMatt> do you have the cash?
 590 2012-02-28 22:00:56 <XMPPwocky> i mean, bitcoin's basically perfect for them
 591 2012-02-28 22:01:17 <gavinandresen> XMPPwocky: feel free to add bounties in the github issues.
 592 2012-02-28 22:01:31 <XMPPwocky> gavinandresen: sure, but that's hard-to-find
 593 2012-02-28 22:01:39 <gavinandresen> (just comment on the issue and say "I'll pay X bitcoins to whoever submits the fix for this bug")
 594 2012-02-28 22:01:44 <BlueMatt> also, every time bug bounties come up, we get into the debate over whether or not they really help...
 595 2012-02-28 22:01:53 <gavinandresen> Worth experimenting, maybe
 596 2012-02-28 22:02:03 <XMPPwocky> I might whip something up in Django that just wraps GH bugs
 597 2012-02-28 22:02:06 <BlueMatt> and all the issues with credit, but anyway, it could always help
 598 2012-02-28 22:02:11 <gavinandresen> XMPPwocky: nifty
 599 2012-02-28 22:03:09 <gavinandresen> On big-picture project stuff:  I'm meeting with Dries Buytaert next week (Mr. Drupal) to pick his brain about growing open source projects
 600 2012-02-28 22:03:17 <BlueMatt> nice
 601 2012-02-28 22:03:55 <luke-jr> FWIW, I'm in the middle of drafting a BIP
 602 2012-02-28 22:04:03 <gavinandresen> a BIP about.....
 603 2012-02-28 22:04:51 <luke-jr> getmemorypool
 604 2012-02-28 22:05:24 <gavinandresen> I think discussion is supposed to happen before drafting a BIP
 605 2012-02-28 22:05:44 <luke-jr> there has been discussion. and this is just a draft-draft, not a Draft
 606 2012-02-28 22:05:47 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_DRAFT:_getmemorypool
 607 2012-02-28 22:05:49 <LittleDuke> rfi, is IP address information stored in transaction/blockchain ?
 608 2012-02-28 22:05:57 <BlueMatt> no
 609 2012-02-28 22:06:01 <luke-jr> will mail the list too
 610 2012-02-28 22:06:38 imsaguy2 is now known as [][][][]---[][][
 611 2012-02-28 22:06:45 <gavinandresen> So:  "we" never nailed down a date for the duplicate coinbase rule change.
 612 2012-02-28 22:06:51 [][][][]---[][][ is now known as [][][]---[][][]
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 614 2012-02-28 22:07:02 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I think Slush, Tycho, and Eleu are needed for that
 615 2012-02-28 22:07:13 * BlueMatt missed the discussion, what was the result?
 616 2012-02-28 22:07:29 <theymos> gavinandresen: OK, testnet BBE is running the latest git now. (Block database still updating.)
 617 2012-02-28 22:07:34 <gavinandresen> theymos: thanks
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 621 2012-02-28 22:08:05 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I think we've got general consensus that just getting a commitment from the big pools on a date to implement sipa's 6-line fix is the right way to go
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 628 2012-02-28 22:08:33 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: and announcing that date loudly
 629 2012-02-28 22:08:38 <gavinandresen> yes
 630 2012-02-28 22:08:52 imsaguy2 is now known as [\\\]
 631 2012-02-28 22:09:00 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: you mean bip 30: "Blocks are not allowed to contain a transaction whose identifier matches that of an earlier, not-fully-spent transaction in the same chain."
 632 2012-02-28 22:09:02 [\\\] is now known as [\\\\]
 633 2012-02-28 22:09:14 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes
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 635 2012-02-28 22:09:55 <BlueMatt> I would argue doing it in some way similar to the way bip16 was done, but maybe not with coinbase flags, just when the big pools announce they are ready to go say "ok, in 1 month, we switch"
 636 2012-02-28 22:10:00 <luke-jr> + Is there anything we can do to attract a great Windows developer?  (we've got issues piling up…)
 637 2012-02-28 22:10:01 <luke-jr> ^ RealSolid
 638 2012-02-28 22:10:05 <luke-jr> </joke>
 639 2012-02-28 22:10:13 <[\\\\]> luke-jr!
 640 2012-02-28 22:10:26 <BlueMatt> imsaguy wtf?
 641 2012-02-28 22:10:43 <sipa> Let's say I wait one or two more days for potential remarks on the mailinglist, and then contact pools whether they would be willing to deploy a 6-line fix in a few days' time as soon as there is confirmation from enough pools.
 642 2012-02-28 22:11:06 <luke-jr> sipa: I don't think Eleu at least is willing to do changes in days notice
 643 2012-02-28 22:11:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: agreed, but I would say we should be careful moving that fast, it does have the potential of causing more problems than not if we do...
 644 2012-02-28 22:11:47 <BlueMatt> (forks with ~even hash power could get ugly)
 645 2012-02-28 22:12:32 <sipa> Ok, what is a reasonable time frame for pools to ask for? Two weeks?
 646 2012-02-28 22:12:34 kakobrekla has joined
 647 2012-02-28 22:12:37 <BlueMatt> I say a month
 648 2012-02-28 22:13:29 lvella has joined
 649 2012-02-28 22:13:38 <sipa> That seems very much; apparently Gavin counts on having a two week notice for BIP16, which is vastly more complex to implement
 650 2012-02-28 22:13:56 <BlueMatt> bip16 is already well-known by everyone
 651 2012-02-28 22:13:58 <BlueMatt> this, less so
 652 2012-02-28 22:14:06 <sipa> true
 653 2012-02-28 22:14:10 <gavinandresen> Seems to me two weeks aught to be plenty; if anybody finds a really critical problem we'd ask people to upgrade within 24 hours.
 654 2012-02-28 22:14:15 <BlueMatt> if we get confirmation from miners by the end of the week, Id say 2 weeks is a bit quick...
 655 2012-02-28 22:14:42 <BlueMatt> we could even do it on april 1st with bip16
 656 2012-02-28 22:15:04 <gavinandresen> (like we did with the overflow bug way back when; upgrading before new blocks mature prevents all sorts of potential nastiness)
 657 2012-02-28 22:15:38 <BlueMatt> that was before my time...
 658 2012-02-28 22:16:15 \\\\\\---\\\\\\\ has left ()
 659 2012-02-28 22:18:13 <sipa> I hope we can do it before the BIP16 switchover.
 660 2012-02-28 22:18:48 <gavinandresen> sipa: agreed
 661 2012-02-28 22:18:54 <BlueMatt> I suppose 2 weeks is ok by me, but I say: wait for comments on the mailing list and ask miners if they are ready this week, then target switchover on 16th?
 662 2012-02-28 22:19:14 <doublec> what happens to people who don't upgrade for the bip 30 issue?
 663 2012-02-28 22:19:27 <BlueMatt> if there is a split, they could work on an invalid chain
 664 2012-02-28 22:19:34 <luke-jr> doublec: if someone tries to attack, they get orphaned
 665 2012-02-28 22:19:41 <doublec> ok
 666 2012-02-28 22:19:42 <luke-jr> potentially
 667 2012-02-28 22:19:43 <BlueMatt> (a split would likely only happen if someone deliberately made one)
 668 2012-02-28 22:20:24 <sipa> they could end up on the invalid chain only if no 51% upgrades
 669 2012-02-28 22:20:53 <BlueMatt> or we could have split fireworks if the split is near 50%
 670 2012-02-28 22:20:59 <BlueMatt> (and the attacker is persistent)
 671 2012-02-28 22:21:09 <BlueMatt> (which would result in a significant drop in mining power overnight...)
 672 2012-02-28 22:21:31 <doublec> luke-jr: is there a list of the windows issues that are piling up? I only see 3 issues tagged as windows in bitcoin/bitcoin.
 673 2012-02-28 22:21:32 <BlueMatt> like 40% drop
 674 2012-02-28 22:21:50 <luke-jr> doublec: I quoted Gavin there
 675 2012-02-28 22:21:51 <BlueMatt> doublec: yea, but some of them are very old
 676 2012-02-28 22:22:00 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 677 2012-02-28 22:22:01 <BlueMatt> well major and decently old
 678 2012-02-28 22:22:17 <luke-jr> I think it's more along the lines of "Windows people can't compile this"
 679 2012-02-28 22:22:26 <luke-jr> since other issues are solved with MingW + WINE
 680 2012-02-28 22:22:44 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 681 2012-02-28 22:22:49 <sipa> gavinandresen: you can't move the BIP16 switchover date to 2 Apr 2012 UTC 02:22:13?
 682 2012-02-28 22:22:54 <BlueMatt> there are some crashes that just wont debug right on windows
 683 2012-02-28 22:23:00 <BlueMatt> (and have fun trying to debug on wine)
 684 2012-02-28 22:23:03 <sipa> (ok just kidding, but 1333333333 in unix time would be nice)
 685 2012-02-28 22:23:11 <gavinandresen> sipa:  ooooh.... tempting.....
 686 2012-02-28 22:23:14 <BlueMatt> heh, ok that would be cool
 687 2012-02-28 22:23:38 <gavinandresen> If Tycho doesn't get with the program soon we'll have to slip it AGAIN
 688 2012-02-28 22:23:53 <BlueMatt> where is [Tycho]
 689 2012-02-28 22:24:05 <sipa> hopefully, cleaning up his code
 690 2012-02-28 22:24:06 <BlueMatt> seems like hes never around...
 691 2012-02-28 22:24:16 <gavinandresen> RE: windows issues:  every release candidate we seem to get several "crashes for me on windows" bugs that just sit and fester
 692 2012-02-28 22:24:47 <luke-jr> anyone know if it's possible to get one of those fancy auto-email-us-the-backtrace dialogs? >.>
 693 2012-02-28 22:24:50 <luke-jr> on Windows I mean
 694 2012-02-28 22:25:17 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: first we need windows debug symbols that we can use to convert offsets to lines of code
 695 2012-02-28 22:25:26 <BlueMatt> (which I havent had time to look into further)
 696 2012-02-28 22:25:41 <sipa> ok; next topic on the agenda? :)
 697 2012-02-28 22:26:00 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: meh, asm isn't *too* bad
 698 2012-02-28 22:26:07 <luke-jr> :p
 699 2012-02-28 22:26:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: multisig next steps
 700 2012-02-28 22:26:19 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ok, but lines would be nicer...
 701 2012-02-28 22:26:19 <doublec> luke-jr: something like http://code.google.com/p/google-breakpad/wiki/GettingStartedWithBreakpad
 702 2012-02-28 22:26:21 <sipa> i don't know of anyone working on that
 703 2012-02-28 22:26:42 <sipa> what would the next step be? implementing a protocal like BIP0010?
 704 2012-02-28 22:26:42 <BlueMatt> hence why its on the agenda :)
 705 2012-02-28 22:27:04 <luke-jr> doublec: yes
 706 2012-02-28 22:27:22 <sipa> maybe a demo "send us a confirmation before doing your transaction" website for testnet would be nice
 707 2012-02-28 22:27:22 twmz_ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 708 2012-02-28 22:27:59 <BlueMatt> blockchain.info actually supports basic non-bip16 multisig txes already
 709 2012-02-28 22:28:12 <luke-jr> #bitcoin-watch supports BIP 17
 710 2012-02-28 22:29:01 <BlueMatt> doublec: breakpad actually looks cool, how hard is it to add to an existing project?
 711 2012-02-28 22:29:06 <BlueMatt> and does it compile on mingw?
 712 2012-02-28 22:29:18 <BlueMatt> nvm: http://code.google.com/p/google-breakpad/issues/detail?id=436
 713 2012-02-28 22:29:41 <riush> so what's the general opinion on bip10? when you say "something like it" do you mean you don't like it?
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 715 2012-02-28 22:30:26 <sipa> riush: I do like it, but I'd need to look at it more closely to know how to combine it with BIP16
 716 2012-02-28 22:31:15 <gavinandresen> I haven't looked hard at BIP 10 either, although it seems like inventing yet another serialization format might be a bad idea
 717 2012-02-28 22:31:30 <gavinandresen> e.g. why not use JSON or XML or <insert your favorite serialization standard here>
 718 2012-02-28 22:32:18 <sipa> I like JSON; Bitcoin already uses it, and it is actually human readable :)
 719 2012-02-28 22:32:38 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 720 2012-02-28 22:32:40 <riush> one advantage of the headers is that you can just paste a bunch of them in an email and recognize/parse them easily
 721 2012-02-28 22:32:59 TD has joined
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 723 2012-02-28 22:33:08 <luke-jr> I like MIME. It's an established standard in common use everywhere :p
 724 2012-02-28 22:33:11 <BlueMatt> you can put headers in json pretty easily too
 725 2012-02-28 22:33:13 tower has joined
 726 2012-02-28 22:33:22 <gavinandresen> riush: you're not expecting non-geeks to copy and paste these, are you?
 727 2012-02-28 22:33:23 <riush> but i also found the serialization strange
 728 2012-02-28 22:33:42 <luke-jr> MIME also integrates well with email
 729 2012-02-28 22:33:43 <sipa> This is a non-issue really; I'm sure the one who implements it can decide what to use just fine.
 730 2012-02-28 22:34:00 <BlueMatt> (so in other words we are going with bip 10?)
 731 2012-02-28 22:34:01 <gavinandresen> sipa:  agreed.  I don't feel strongly about the serialization format
 732 2012-02-28 22:34:08 <BlueMatt> anyway, agreed
 733 2012-02-28 22:34:11 <riush> yea just a minor point
 734 2012-02-28 22:35:21 <gavinandresen> One big issue for multisig transactions is how to handle backups
 735 2012-02-28 22:35:35 pierre` has joined
 736 2012-02-28 22:35:37 FaktioNN has joined
 737 2012-02-28 22:35:40 <gavinandresen> ... but I think maybe doing deterministic wallets first will solve that nicely
 738 2012-02-28 22:35:48 <FaktioNN> Hi there, quick question.
 739 2012-02-28 22:35:49 Someguy123 is now known as [\]\]\[]\[]---[\
 740 2012-02-28 22:36:02 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: how so?
 741 2012-02-28 22:36:12 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: in the case of bip16, you have to backup
 742 2012-02-28 22:36:15 <gavinandresen> ... hmmm, wait, no.... probably doesn't solve that, because you're going to get a public key from another party that you have to backup/remember
 743 2012-02-28 22:36:38 <BlueMatt> yea, I think so...
 744 2012-02-28 22:36:48 <BlueMatt> backup is something we should give more thought to...
 745 2012-02-28 22:37:12 <sipa> I've been thinking about determinstic wallets, and doing them properly (https://gist.github.com/1799467 for details). The hard part is not implementing this, but integrate it with the current wallet system...
 746 2012-02-28 22:37:14 <gavinandresen> FaktioNN: the answer is delete blk*.dat in your .bitcoin directory
 747 2012-02-28 22:37:25 [\]\]\[]\[]---[\ is now known as [|-|]-[\-\]-|||
 748 2012-02-28 22:37:26 * luke-jr votes encrypt the whole wallet, then upload it somewhere, all automated <.<
 749 2012-02-28 22:37:28 <gavinandresen> FaktioNN: (kidding!)
 750 2012-02-28 22:37:49 <FaktioNN> I am running an alternate test chain. I'm running a couple of nodes on a cluster, and tailing the debug logs. It appears that each node sees each other via IRC ("IRC got new address" "AddAddress", so on and so forth) - should any debug message occur after that, or does the "AddAddress" signify that the node was connected to the other correctly?
 751 2012-02-28 22:38:02 <riush> also, thinking of lightweight clients, could bip10 format be used to help that?
 752 2012-02-28 22:38:12 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I vote for all the uploads to go to a server I control and be encrypted with a key I control (that way I can recover everyone's wallets for them when they accidentally delete them) :)
 753 2012-02-28 22:38:17 <sipa> FaktioNN: AddAddress only means an potential peer address was received
 754 2012-02-28 22:38:24 <BlueMatt> sipa: cant we throw away wallet.dat already?
 755 2012-02-28 22:38:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: I'd like to
 756 2012-02-28 22:38:39 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I'll agree for 10%
 757 2012-02-28 22:38:48 <FaktioNN> sipa: so I should be seeing a "node connected" sort of message?
 758 2012-02-28 22:38:49 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: its done then
 759 2012-02-28 22:38:52 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 760 2012-02-28 22:38:53 <luke-jr> :p
 761 2012-02-28 22:39:14 <sipa> FaktioNN: "connected to ..." or "accepted connection from ..."
 762 2012-02-28 22:39:15 [ is now known as -|]-[\-\]-|||!~someguy@unaffiliated/compgenius999|s\some\guy\123\n
 763 2012-02-28 22:39:26 <FaktioNN> Hm.
 764 2012-02-28 22:39:45 <gavinandresen> FaktioNN: getinfo RPC call tells you how many connections a node has
 765 2012-02-28 22:39:59 <FaktioNN> Give me a second, I'll run that.
 766 2012-02-28 22:40:04 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, so as a part of det. wallets we will scrap wallet.dat in favor of a better solution
 767 2012-02-28 22:40:10 iocor has joined
 768 2012-02-28 22:40:35 <luke-jr> I think we still need wallet.dat unless we want to rescan every startup…
 769 2012-02-28 22:41:07 <BlueMatt> yea, keep wallet.dat but only for txes
 770 2012-02-28 22:41:25 <BlueMatt> keying info (and maybe bip16 txinfo) can go in wallet-flatfile.txt
 771 2012-02-28 22:42:08 <BlueMatt> (IMHO)
 772 2012-02-28 22:42:15 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: as of 0.6 options move out of wallet.dat, moving the private keys out might make sense.  Although doing that breaks every single wallet backup tool that's been written
 773 2012-02-28 22:42:26 <sipa> I was thinking about a human-readable append-only file format, which can optionally be "compacted" by removing superceded lines.
 774 2012-02-28 22:42:27 <FaktioNN> Yep, it appears that both nodes are sitting at zero connections.
 775 2012-02-28 22:42:57 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: true, but having an append-only file that we can safely and easily rewrite on our own without having to deal with bdb would be sooooo nice that Id say its worth it
 776 2012-02-28 22:43:32 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: did you see my reference to sqlite3 earlier?  It has a secure delete option....
 777 2012-02-28 22:43:37 <FaktioNN> Any idea why that may be? No firewall in existence.
 778 2012-02-28 22:43:46 tower has joined
 779 2012-02-28 22:43:57 <sipa> gavinandresen: Is there any reason to be that sqlite3 has fewer problems on unreliable hardware than bdb?
 780 2012-02-28 22:43:59 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ooo, but I really hate to link sqlite + bdb just for that... plus for what we need flatfile.txt is simple enough
 781 2012-02-28 22:44:11 <sipa> +lieve
 782 2012-02-28 22:44:17 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: it'd be sqlite instead of bdb, not +
 783 2012-02-28 22:44:39 <gavinandresen> sipa: don't know.  It feels to me like sqlite has a lot more documentation, support, activity/etc than bdb, though
 784 2012-02-28 22:44:50 <BlueMatt> Id go for that
 785 2012-02-28 22:44:51 <sipa> true
 786 2012-02-28 22:44:52 Aexoden has joined
 787 2012-02-28 22:45:11 <BlueMatt> and get more easily readable blkindex + addr dbs too would be nice...
 788 2012-02-28 22:45:12 <sipa> But I'd still move away from a database-backed wallet in the first place.
 789 2012-02-28 22:45:18 JZavala has joined
 790 2012-02-28 22:45:41 <sipa> BlueMatt: addrman just dumps a binary blob of its database to disk (well, in a bdb keypair)
 791 2012-02-28 22:45:43 <etotheipi_> FYI, Armory implements the exact kind of wallet you are talking about
 792 2012-02-28 22:45:44 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: not sure sqlite makes sense for block index
 793 2012-02-28 22:45:54 <sipa> etotheipi_: rightfully so :)
 794 2012-02-28 22:45:54 <luke-jr> sqlite and bdb generally don't compete
 795 2012-02-28 22:45:55 <gavinandresen> sipa: generalizing the database api is a good idea.  Matt:  I think we'd still want to go for a simple key-value paradigm....
 796 2012-02-28 22:46:03 <etotheipi_> I've already battled atomicity/integrity without using DB engine
 797 2012-02-28 22:46:18 piuk has joined
 798 2012-02-28 22:46:41 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I meant just moving to sqlite makes them more readable
 799 2012-02-28 22:46:43 <etotheipi_> although I'm afraid to have this conversation with you guys... because I know someone will recommend a non-backwards-compatible improvement to what I did that I will love
 800 2012-02-28 22:46:47 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: how's that going so far?  In the past I've always figured that's what database are FOR....
 801 2012-02-28 22:46:50 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: there are easy-to-use tools for reading sqlite dbs
 802 2012-02-28 22:47:14 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen, it's worked out pretty darned well, besides the unit-test mess during the development phase
 803 2012-02-28 22:47:19 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: it's not going to be readable if the database is just a two-column "blob key" "blob value" database
 804 2012-02-28 22:47:44 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: txindex would still be more readable even if it is serialized blobs
 805 2012-02-28 22:48:11 <etotheipi_> but ever since I nailed it down, I haven't had a hint of an issue with it...
 806 2012-02-28 22:48:16 <sipa> etotheipi_: Well, if I implement determinstic wallets again, it will be using the hierarchical idea, with integration with accounts...
 807 2012-02-28 22:48:27 <sipa> etotheipi_: good to know
 808 2012-02-28 22:48:49 <etotheipi_> I implemented some simulated write-interrupted unit-tests, to make sure the logic was right
 809 2012-02-28 22:48:56 <gavinandresen> Pluggable database back-ends would be very nice; I'm sure big websites would appreciate being able to use MongoDB or another big-iron NoSQL solution
 810 2012-02-28 22:49:09 <etotheipi_> but I guess it hasn't been well-tested against actual interruptions
 811 2012-02-28 22:49:27 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: agreed, plus we already have half a bdb wrapper to make it decently easy
 812 2012-02-28 22:49:31 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 813 2012-02-28 22:49:49 <gavinandresen> That could be a good summer-of-code project for somebody....
 814 2012-02-28 22:49:54 <etotheipi_> the gist of it is this:  all modifications to the wallet are "overwrite existing with same-length data", or "append"
 815 2012-02-28 22:50:14 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: /me may just do that (if I dont have a more fun cblockstore-based hacking project to do)
 816 2012-02-28 22:50:14 <etotheipi_> I create a vector of modifications to be made to the wallet file, and then I apply them to the wallet file first, then to it's backup
 817 2012-02-28 22:50:30 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: ummm... you don't erase transactions that get reorganized away?
 818 2012-02-28 22:50:31 <sipa> etotheipi_: Oh, I'd go for append-only really; overwriting live data always risks corruption
 819 2012-02-28 22:50:40 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: like temporary mem-backed block storage so that we can get reorg/etc unit tests...
 820 2012-02-28 22:50:42 <etotheipi_> I write lock flags in between so that I know what file was being modified during the failure
 821 2012-02-28 22:50:48 <FaktioNN> I can also confirm that noirc is not enabled. So the nodes do appear to be grabbing the IPs off the IRC channel. I'm just not sure why a connection has not been established once a peer IP is found from the channel.
 822 2012-02-28 22:50:58 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen, I don't store tx data in the wallet
 823 2012-02-28 22:51:08 <etotheipi_> it only holds keys and comments
 824 2012-02-28 22:51:10 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: well then that's easy!
 825 2012-02-28 22:51:31 <riush> maybe split "tx store" and "keystore"?
 826 2012-02-28 22:51:39 <etotheipi_> and eventually BIP 16 scripts
 827 2012-02-28 22:51:53 <riush> well, "tx and label and stuff store"
 828 2012-02-28 22:52:19 <etotheipi_> sipa, the way I implemented it, if data is written to the HDD file in the order I call it (which I enforce with fsync commands) there's no way for corruption
 829 2012-02-28 22:52:51 <etotheipi_> the file will be identified as corrupted and restored from the backup file
 830 2012-02-28 22:53:29 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: fsync doesn't wait for writes to hit disk
 831 2012-02-28 22:53:47 <etotheipi_> I only modify one file at a time, guaranteeing that one is not corrupt before modifying the other
 832 2012-02-28 22:54:14 <etotheipi_> luke-jr, as long as the operations happen in the same *order* as I call them, there is no problem
 833 2012-02-28 22:54:22 <gavinandresen> "But it has been reported that fsync() and FlushFileBuffers() do not always work correctly, especially with inexpensive IDE disks."
 834 2012-02-28 22:54:26 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: there is no guarantee of that
 835 2012-02-28 22:54:30 <sipa> etotheipi_: you always write the entire file?
 836 2012-02-28 22:54:41 <gavinandresen> ( from http://www.sqlite.org/lockingv3.html#how_to_corrupt )
 837 2012-02-28 22:54:41 <etotheipi_> sipa, no
 838 2012-02-28 22:54:52 <sipa> or how does the backup file work?
 839 2012-02-28 22:55:01 <jgarzik_> gavinandresen: I've long told the author of that page about it needing factual corrections
 840 2012-02-28 22:55:04 <etotheipi_> backup file and wallet file are usually exactly the same
 841 2012-02-28 22:55:14 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
 842 2012-02-28 22:55:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: fsync and FlushFileBuffers both tell the disk to flush its cache now
 843 2012-02-28 22:55:33 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: would know what the trust is here...
 844 2012-02-28 22:55:45 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: cool
 845 2012-02-28 22:55:46 <BlueMatt> s/the trust/he is talking about/
 846 2012-02-28 22:55:47 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: so that quote is basically wrong for modern OS's
 847 2012-02-28 22:55:48 <etotheipi_> when I want to modify "change/append", I create a vector of wallet file updates... I write a main-corrupted flag.  Modify main wallet file.  create backup-corrupted flag, delete main-corrupted flag.  updated backup wallet, delete backup-corrupted flag
 848 2012-02-28 22:56:16 <luke-jr> jgarzik: IIRC the standard only requires that the writes be immediately scheduled
 849 2012-02-28 22:56:38 <etotheipi_> the primary motivation was that I really wanted the wallet file to be accessible from simple binary-reading code
 850 2012-02-28 22:56:38 <sipa> etotheipi_: nice one
 851 2012-02-28 22:56:54 <etotheipi_> but of course I wanted atomicity, too, or something likme it
 852 2012-02-28 22:56:55 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: do you have thoughts about moving away from bdb towards something else?
 853 2012-02-28 22:58:23 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: what's the motivation?   bdb is not fundamentally buggy or anything, AFAIK.
 854 2012-02-28 22:58:43 <sipa> no, just inconvenient
 855 2012-02-28 22:58:55 <jgarzik> in what way?
 856 2012-02-28 22:59:00 <jgarzik> details?
 857 2012-02-28 22:59:01 * luke-jr guesses the primary problem is bdb leaking information?
 858 2012-02-28 22:59:04 <etotheipi_> I don't know how much weight you want to put on it... but I really think that not having to import a DB library to access the wallet is convenient for other developers
 859 2012-02-28 22:59:20 <etotheipi_> plus, we all know what happened with the wallet-not-really-encrypted bug in 0.4.0
 860 2012-02-28 22:59:38 <jgarzik> wallet is a data file.  you would need to import -some- lib to read it, if only json or xml
 861 2012-02-28 22:59:47 <sipa> requiring a log/database directory, no secure overwrite, seems to fail quite badly on unreliable hardware, ...
 862 2012-02-28 23:00:05 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: mostly a feeling that bdb is old and crufty and not-well-documented-or-supported
 863 2012-02-28 23:00:15 <sipa> jgarzik: i would have no problem with moving to a write-only file text file format for wallets
 864 2012-02-28 23:00:22 <sipa> *append-only
 865 2012-02-28 23:00:40 <theymos> I do like how easy BDB is to compile. It has no significant dependencies.
 866 2012-02-28 23:00:52 <jgarzik> sipa: that implies you must recreate all the secure file append code
 867 2012-02-28 23:00:54 * luke-jr isn't sure he'd call BDB easy to compile :/
 868 2012-02-28 23:00:56 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: but never backward compat upgrades are one way
 869 2012-02-28 23:01:04 <jrmithdobbs> and ya, bdb's build system is a bit of a cluster
 870 2012-02-28 23:01:29 <jgarzik> sipa: append/flush/append/flush, check for success, handle failure.  You've reinvented bdb at that point.
 871 2012-02-28 23:01:29 <sipa> jgarzik: see etotheipi_'s explanation of his wallet files above
 872 2012-02-28 23:02:03 <sipa> jgarzik: that's a serious exaggeration
 873 2012-02-28 23:02:13 <sipa> i agree there is some duplication, though
 874 2012-02-28 23:02:22 <jgarzik> not if you want to make sure your data hits the disk securely
 875 2012-02-28 23:02:30 <gavinandresen> I agree with jgarzik, let the database experts deal with consistency/etc
 876 2012-02-28 23:03:04 <sipa> bdb is the one reason why we don't have an "open wallet file...", "save wallet as...", ... yet
 877 2012-02-28 23:03:17 <jrmithdobbs> i think moving the wallet to an append-only replayable log type thing would definitely be worth trying out at the least
 878 2012-02-28 23:03:38 <etotheipi_> but you have to consider the risks that come with using a black-box DB engine to do this stuff for you
 879 2012-02-28 23:03:49 <jgarzik> with bitcoin, too, part of the blame focused on bdb is really how we do not structure transactions properly.
 880 2012-02-28 23:03:53 <jrmithdobbs> bdb can hardly be called a blackbox
 881 2012-02-28 23:04:01 <jgarzik> it was too much of a mess for me to untangle months ago
 882 2012-02-28 23:04:16 <jgarzik> I did help speed things up a bit on the initial block download, with some flushing tricks
 883 2012-02-28 23:04:34 <etotheipi_> jrmithdobbs, that's where the encryption bug in 0.4.0 came from:  assuming that it was doing somethign it wasn't (overwriting unencryted/deleted keys)
 884 2012-02-28 23:04:43 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 885 2012-02-28 23:04:52 <etotheipi_> in fact, we determined we couldn't even force it to do what we wanted
 886 2012-02-28 23:05:42 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: bad assumptions instead of checking the available source/docs does not a blackbox make ;p
 887 2012-02-28 23:05:50 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: reinventing a replayable structured log is...  a chore
 888 2012-02-28 23:05:55 sacarlson has joined
 889 2012-02-28 23:06:01 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: a non-trivial, difficult to debug and get right chore
 890 2012-02-28 23:06:22 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: the problem with experimenting with something like replacing bdb with a homemade solution is we won't know if there are problems until it is widely deployed
 891 2012-02-28 23:06:26 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i'm not necessarily saying a ground up impl but there's got to be something available that does something more suited to the wallet vs bdb
 892 2012-02-28 23:06:31 <etotheipi_> I totally understand all sides of the argument... I'm just explaining that I've done the "reinventing" part... and it's worked so far, but the question of the HDD caching, fsyncs, etc, still remain not entirely certain
 893 2012-02-28 23:06:52 <sipa> don't forget this: we keep the entire wallet in memory anyway
 894 2012-02-28 23:06:53 <jgarzik> I do agree w/ jrmithdobbs and sipa that bdb is not well suited for our wallet uses
 895 2012-02-28 23:06:54 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: maybe it could be optional for a few revs?
 896 2012-02-28 23:07:08 <jgarzik> but the other points are all bunko, when you consider the alternative :)
 897 2012-02-28 23:07:10 <sipa> that makes much of the db feature not needed
 898 2012-02-28 23:07:10 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: ... but if it is option it won't be widely deployed.....
 899 2012-02-28 23:07:29 <jrmithdobbs> what happened to that qa guy? ;p
 900 2012-02-28 23:07:41 <jrmithdobbs> (I mean, there's no other response than that really, not meaning to be snarky.)
 901 2012-02-28 23:07:47 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ^^
 902 2012-02-28 23:07:47 <etotheipi_> btw, I'm not entirely convinced of BDB even preventing corruption... in the past I got corrupted wallets all the time with unclean shutdowns... but maybe that was a bug... somewhere...
 903 2012-02-28 23:08:11 <sipa> etotheipi_: bdb does not prevent corruption in case of hardware failure, it seems...
 904 2012-02-28 23:08:14 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: so I agree bdb is not a good fit for wallet, but I would disagree with calling bdb crufty or unsupported.  it's debugged nosql engine.
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 906 2012-02-28 23:08:29 <jrmithdobbs> bdb is amazing software
 907 2012-02-28 23:08:35 <sipa> it is, for some purposes
 908 2012-02-28 23:08:40 <jrmithdobbs> it's just not suited
 909 2012-02-28 23:08:41 <jgarzik> we can certainly move to yes_sql
 910 2012-02-28 23:08:42 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ok.  I guess I'm mostly reacting to the constant "I used a different version of bdb and now I get a crash on startup" problem
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 912 2012-02-28 23:08:52 <jrmithdobbs> we do quite a bit of different weirdass shit with bdb at work and it works great
 913 2012-02-28 23:09:08 <sipa> bdb basically assumes that the uses of the software is a system administrator
 914 2012-02-28 23:09:10 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yeah we don't pay enough attention to upgrading/downgrading major bdb file formats in our app :/
 915 2012-02-28 23:09:12 <sipa> *user
 916 2012-02-28 23:09:16 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: or a dev, ya
 917 2012-02-28 23:10:33 <jgarzik> sipa: that's all in how the app is coded.  Users never know that bdb is embedded inside Quicken, Turbo Tax or Rosetta Stone windows software
 918 2012-02-28 23:10:41 <gavinandresen> RE: using something else for the wallet:  for the wallet or for private key storage?  Storing the keys separately makes a lot of sense....
 919 2012-02-28 23:10:59 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: personally, i'm of the opinion that the keys and txn history should be sep
 920 2012-02-28 23:11:16 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen, I obviously agree since that's what I did with Armory :)
 921 2012-02-28 23:11:16 <jgarzik> a lot of this conversation is about problems that arise from how bitcoin uses bdb
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 923 2012-02-28 23:11:19 <jgarzik> not bdb itself
 924 2012-02-28 23:11:23 <sipa> gavinandresen: in a deterministic wallet scenario, the keys are just a few immutable bytes
 925 2012-02-28 23:11:39 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ya, bdb itself is great software (in general)
 926 2012-02-28 23:12:08 <sipa> I think we agree: bdb is good, but we're not using the way it is intended to.
 927 2012-02-28 23:12:09 <gavinandresen> So how do we get a bdb expert and windows expert onboard?
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 929 2012-02-28 23:12:37 <jgarzik> sipa: I agree with that
 930 2012-02-28 23:12:38 <jrmithdobbs> i don't think bdb is suited for the wallet in particular just due to the one way upgrade issue
 931 2012-02-28 23:12:56 <jrmithdobbs> bdb is fine for the block index and addr cache and stuff (though it's use needs tweaking)
 932 2012-02-28 23:13:04 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: indeed
 933 2012-02-28 23:13:08 user has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 934 2012-02-28 23:13:12 <sipa> (on decent hardware)
 935 2012-02-28 23:13:14 <jgarzik> one can always (1) write a temp wallet to disk, (2) flush, (3) rename into place.
 936 2012-02-28 23:13:30 <jgarzik> total-rewrite is easier to get right than creating your own replayable log
 937 2012-02-28 23:13:57 <jgarzik> we keep the entire wallet in memory anyway
 938 2012-02-28 23:14:09 <jrmithdobbs> ya but when you're storing things you don't want to be rewritten (like keys or the deterministic wallet seed) that kind of sucks
 939 2012-02-28 23:14:32 <jgarzik> I would not trust our own hand-rolled replayable log software above bdb's, at least initially
 940 2012-02-28 23:14:50 <sipa> jgarzik: file format is: "hexkey:hexvalue\n", the first line is special an is overwritten to put a "corrupt" marker, keep two files to which you always write both
 941 2012-02-28 23:15:11 <sipa> when doing a full rewrite, just dump from memory
 942 2012-02-28 23:15:25 <jgarzik> sipa: you cannot -rewrite- without huge potential for corruption
 943 2012-02-28 23:15:39 <sipa> jgarzik: that's why you have two files
 944 2012-02-28 23:16:25 <etotheipi_> my only argument is basically what everyone has touched on:  the functionality needed for storing wallet keys only uses a fraction of the functionality that BDB offers (or other DB engine)
 945 2012-02-28 23:16:54 <jgarzik> sipa: I think you're trying too hard here :)  Reinventing existing technology, poorly, should be a last resort
 946 2012-02-28 23:16:57 <etotheipi_> those engines are great at big complicated things, and doing it atomically, etc... but for something simple, almost-always-append-only operations, I don't think it's inappropriate to do something more custom
 947 2012-02-28 23:17:11 <jgarzik> you'll just stumble across, and correct, mistakes others have already made and learned from
 948 2012-02-28 23:17:41 <sipa> jgarzik: for something so simple, i'm not sure i agree
 949 2012-02-28 23:17:58 <jrmithdobbs> i agree with the general sentiment
 950 2012-02-28 23:18:32 <jrmithdobbs> I'd worry about how such a thing would scale to thousands/millions of txns in a single wallet, for instance
 951 2012-02-28 23:18:37 <sipa> jgarzik: i like etotheipi_'s solution, actually
 952 2012-02-28 23:18:54 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: that worry exists now as well, as we keep the entire wallet in memory anyway
 953 2012-02-28 23:18:55 <gavinandresen> I'd much rather we spent time on a simple "what if my computer catches fire" foolproof backup solution
 954 2012-02-28 23:19:05 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i know
 955 2012-02-28 23:19:15 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen, then don't keep your paper backup on top of your computer
 956 2012-02-28 23:19:18 <gavinandresen> (which etotheipi has done a good job of with paper backups)
 957 2012-02-28 23:19:27 <etotheipi_> :)
 958 2012-02-28 23:19:29 <jrmithdobbs> has he?
 959 2012-02-28 23:19:46 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: qr codes?
 960 2012-02-28 23:20:14 <etotheipi_> jrmithdobbs, it's not strictly QR codes... it's printing the deterministic wallet seed to paper.... there's a QR code in case you don't feel like typing it and you have a scanner
 961 2012-02-28 23:20:15 <gavinandresen> Paper backups and/or  "email me an encrypted version of my important stuff" seems like two promising ways to do it
 962 2012-02-28 23:20:27 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: oh you wrote that python client, gotcha
 963 2012-02-28 23:20:50 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: i have some suffering bitrot atm that generates qr40s based off an ancient version of sipa's export wallet ;p
 964 2012-02-28 23:20:54 <etotheipi_> what I don't have is encrypted paper backup
 965 2012-02-28 23:20:57 <jrmithdobbs> err qr v40s
 966 2012-02-28 23:21:36 <sipa> anyway; how is 0.6.0's release schedule?
 967 2012-02-28 23:21:57 <BlueMatt> april 1
 968 2012-02-28 23:22:03 <gavinandresen> Right!  0.6.....   I don't see anything that would hold up a rc2 tommorrow-ish
 969 2012-02-28 23:22:22 <gavinandresen> (except for those festering Windows issues)
 970 2012-02-28 23:22:27 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: did a fix for that os x ipc issue get pulled? i keep asking right after you leave, ha
 971 2012-02-28 23:22:46 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: the 100% cpu issue?  Yes, I commited a fix recently
 972 2012-02-28 23:22:49 <sipa> ACK for 0.6.0rc2
 973 2012-02-28 23:22:56 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: cool
 974 2012-02-28 23:23:34 <jrmithdobbs> i'll test some things i was interested in in .6 this week then, was waiting on that and didn't have time to look into that problem, heh
 975 2012-02-28 23:24:32 <gavinandresen> Ok, plan is 0.6rc2 tomorrow.  Matt:  build should be deterministic this time around?
 976 2012-02-28 23:24:50 <BlueMatt> yes, aside from the existing qt+boost non-determinisms
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 980 2012-02-28 23:29:41 <sipa> etotheipi_: by the way, you create all keys at runtime?
 981 2012-02-28 23:29:50 <etotheipi_> sipa, what do you mean?
 982 2012-02-28 23:29:50 <sipa> as in: they are not stored/cached somehwere?
 983 2012-02-28 23:30:03 <etotheipi_> they are stored in the wallet file so they don't have to be calculated every load
 984 2012-02-28 23:30:05 piuk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 985 2012-02-28 23:30:13 <sipa> ok
 986 2012-02-28 23:31:55 <sipa> etotheipi_: by the way, to what extend do you plan to be compatible with the HDW idea?
 987 2012-02-28 23:31:56 <etotheipi_> I have a highest *used* index stored in the wallet, and then usually keep a pool of 100 keys beyond that in case another wallet is using it
 988 2012-02-28 23:32:06 <sipa> etotheipi_: just a single chain per wallet?
 989 2012-02-28 23:32:09 <etotheipi_> HDW?
 990 2012-02-28 23:32:20 <etotheipi_> HMAC?
 991 2012-02-28 23:32:24 <sipa> hierarchical deterministic wallets, it's kind of a long word
 992 2012-02-28 23:32:38 <etotheipi_> oh, so I don't really "believe" in the hierarchical part...
 993 2012-02-28 23:32:40 <etotheipi_> :)
 994 2012-02-28 23:32:41 <sipa> https://gist.github.com/1799467
 995 2012-02-28 23:32:46 <sipa> I see
 996 2012-02-28 23:32:52 <etotheipi_> but I plan to implement the same algorithm
 997 2012-02-28 23:33:02 <sipa> Guess I need a better motivation section :D
 998 2012-02-28 23:33:28 <etotheipi_> sipa, you and gmaxwell explained to me the use of it... I kinda see it, but for myself I don't see it being worth the effort
 999 2012-02-28 23:33:42 <sipa> Ok.
1000 2012-02-28 23:33:46 <jrmithdobbs> which bit?
1001 2012-02-28 23:33:55 <etotheipi_> but given a root key and chaincode, I will have a wallet format that will generate the same addresses
1002 2012-02-28 23:34:37 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: basically, in HDW, you can have several accounts, and each has/can have two chains.
1003 2012-02-28 23:34:50 <sipa> etotheipi_ only has a single chain per wallet
1004 2012-02-28 23:35:20 <etotheipi_> sipa, I was never convinced that two chains were necessary... I feel like it complicates things more than it adds value
1005 2012-02-28 23:35:27 <jrmithdobbs> oh he's just saying he doesn't personally have a need for the multiple account bit
1006 2012-02-28 23:35:30 <jrmithdobbs> gotcha
1007 2012-02-28 23:35:43 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: also, that was a great adittion to the concept, yours?
1008 2012-02-28 23:35:58 <etotheipi_> jrmithdobbs, my thought is that most use cases would be handled just by using separate wallets
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1010 2012-02-28 23:36:08 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: it allows "plausible deniability" of partial data leak of wallet occurs
1011 2012-02-28 23:36:09 <etotheipi_> but maybe I'm being stubborn because I've already done it one way
1012 2012-02-28 23:36:30 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: most of the idea for external/internals chains and several accounts came from a discussion with gmaxwell, who had some great use cases
1013 2012-02-28 23:36:44 <etotheipi_> well, I'm open to being persuaded
1014 2012-02-28 23:36:45 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: my addition is mainly the hierarchical key derivation
1015 2012-02-28 23:36:47 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: the complexity difference for the public/private part is very tiny.
1016 2012-02-28 23:37:19 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1017 2012-02-28 23:37:20 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: eg, pub seed for the wallet gets out somehow (contrived situation, i know) now everyone can tell which txns are yours, whereas with multiple accounts you can't associate them *quite* that easily (though it's still most likely possible without very good discipline on the user's part)
1018 2012-02-28 23:37:33 <etotheipi_> but in the short-term, I was planning to figure out how to extract rootkey+chaincode and generate the same addresses
1019 2012-02-28 23:37:49 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it's not even contrived, you share them with business partners, put them on webservers that generate keys for payments.
1020 2012-02-28 23:38:08 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya, I guess it's really not
1021 2012-02-28 23:38:44 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: reading your gist now
1022 2012-02-28 23:39:28 <da2ce7> gday everyone...
1023 2012-02-28 23:39:33 <da2ce7> is the meeting log up yet?
1024 2012-02-28 23:40:06 <gavinandresen> da2ce7: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2012/02/28/3
1025 2012-02-28 23:40:15 <da2ce7> gavinandresen: thx
1026 2012-02-28 23:40:25 <gavinandresen> (ooh, will that link in the log cause it to infinitely recurse and explode the InterWebs???)
1027 2012-02-28 23:40:43 <sipa> gavinandresen: you know, if you type "google" into "google" ...
1028 2012-02-28 23:41:09 <gavinandresen> If EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD types "google" into "google" AT THE SAME TIME....
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1033 2012-02-28 23:41:59 <sytse> gavinandresen: if everybody in the world uses google at the same time, that'll be a problem in and of itself :)
1034 2012-02-28 23:42:10 <jrmithdobbs> sytse: not really
1035 2012-02-28 23:42:19 <jrmithdobbs> their shit's scaled out to handle it
1036 2012-02-28 23:42:29 <gavinandresen> They probably do lots of caching.  If we all google the same thing.....
1037 2012-02-28 23:42:31 <sytse> everyone at the same second? Nah
1038 2012-02-28 23:42:40 <sipa> damn, still 5 more hours until raspberrypi's announcement
1039 2012-02-28 23:42:47 * sipa ponders staying awake..
1040 2012-02-28 23:42:50 <gavinandresen> mmmm, pi.
1041 2012-02-28 23:42:57 <sipa> pi is gooooood
1042 2012-02-28 23:42:59 <gavinandresen> (has no idea what sip is talking about)
1043 2012-02-28 23:43:02 <sytse> that'd take a capacity that's more than a million times the average capacity
1044 2012-02-28 23:43:07 <sytse> they're not equipped to handle that
1045 2012-02-28 23:43:31 <sytse> gavinandresen: no idea about raspberry pi?
1046 2012-02-28 23:43:36 lyspooner has joined
1047 2012-02-28 23:43:39 <sytse> gavinandresen: you should be ashamed of yourself :-)
1048 2012-02-28 23:43:43 <sipa> http://www.weebls-stuff.com/wab/pie/
1049 2012-02-28 23:43:43 <gavinandresen> sytse: nope, guess I've been living in a cave
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1051 2012-02-28 23:44:02 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I don't really agree with the use case here:  I see a wallet as a fundamental unit of Bitcoin usage:  if you give someone only one half of the chain and don't give them the other half (used for change), they won't be able to see how much money went out, only in
1052 2012-02-28 23:44:30 <sipa> etotheipi_: that's exactly the point
1053 2012-02-28 23:44:42 <etotheipi_> sipa, but I don't agree that it is useful
1054 2012-02-28 23:45:16 <jrmithdobbs> how isn't it?
1055 2012-02-28 23:45:19 <sytse> gavinandresen: ooh
1056 2012-02-28 23:45:20 <sytse> gavinandresen: the bitcoin cabal cave?
1057 2012-02-28 23:45:38 <etotheipi_> if I have a business partner, he needs to see inputs and outputs...
1058 2012-02-28 23:45:44 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, sqlite would almost certainly reduce corruption
1059 2012-02-28 23:45:55 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: and if you have a b2b relationship with another business?
1060 2012-02-28 23:45:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: meh, get some sleep (BUT SET AN ALARM, you wouldnt want to miss it)
1061 2012-02-28 23:46:17 <etotheipi_> he sees 1000 BTC come in, but doesn't see how much went out (because he can't distinguish change from spending) then it's completely arbitrary what the inputs are
1062 2012-02-28 23:46:25 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: then give him both. My website sure as heck doesn't need to see it all.
1063 2012-02-28 23:46:29 <etotheipi_> *sorry, not *completely* arbitrary, but it doesn't tell the story
1064 2012-02-28 23:46:58 jaypetermm has joined
1065 2012-02-28 23:47:19 <jaypetermm> i know
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1067 2012-02-28 23:47:32 <sipa> he knows!
1068 2012-02-28 23:47:39 <gmaxwell> You seem to be fixating on a case where you'd prefer to not conceal the information— OKAY, just don't conceal it there. It's flexibility you have.
1069 2012-02-28 23:47:41 <BlueMatt> omg, he knows
1070 2012-02-28 23:47:55 BlueMatt has left ("shit, shit, he knows")
1071 2012-02-28 23:48:30 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I appreciate flexibility... but it comes with complexity, and I don't feel it's worth it to split what I believe to be an "atom" of Bitcoin use-case into smaller pieces
1072 2012-02-28 23:48:38 jaypetermm1 has joined
1073 2012-02-28 23:48:41 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: the perfect use case is what gmaxwell just said. How about a payment system webapp that never actually spends anything? it only needs access to the bare minimum to do it's job and should preferably not leak any other information to *anyone* even in the worst case of complete compromise
1074 2012-02-28 23:48:46 BlueMatt has joined
1075 2012-02-28 23:48:54 <jaypetermm1> pirateat40
1076 2012-02-28 23:48:58 <jaypetermm1> try your best
1077 2012-02-28 23:49:16 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, something i could use
1078 2012-02-28 23:49:29 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: this is actually functionality multiple people have asked for btw
1079 2012-02-28 23:49:29 <phantomcircuit> currently using a ridiculous payment notifications system
1080 2012-02-28 23:49:34 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: like phantomcircuit here ;p
1081 2012-02-28 23:49:48 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Another example I gave before, for example — I've given my mom a walletkey so she can generate payments to me without constantly reusing an address. (good practice). But it's none of her business what my balance is.
1082 2012-02-28 23:49:50 jaypetermm1 has quit (Client Quit)
1083 2012-02-28 23:50:20 <gmaxwell> I obviously can't hide whats still at addresses she sent to without sweeping, but there isn't any reason to disclose any more than that.
1084 2012-02-28 23:50:25 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, I believe in that example that you should just have a different DW for each person
1085 2012-02-28 23:50:40 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: the functionality enables *a lot* of very hard use cases to be handled very easily
1086 2012-02-28 23:50:53 <jrmithdobbs> etotheipi_: omitting it makes it trivially simpler for the already-easiest-to-use-case
1087 2012-02-28 23:50:53 <BlueMatt> I love redundant headlines: "iOS loophole...source says a fix is coming" <-- yes, because apple typically doesnt fix loopholes in its software...
1088 2012-02-28 23:51:19 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: my favorite headline today: SANTORUM COMES FROM BEHIND IN ARIZONA 3-WAY
1089 2012-02-28 23:51:29 Ahimoth has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1090 2012-02-28 23:51:29 <sipa> Next day: young bitcoin developers discloses that apple doesn't fix loopholes.
1091 2012-02-28 23:51:33 <BlueMatt> oh, thats really bad
1092 2012-02-28 23:51:35 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: almost spit my drink out
1093 2012-02-28 23:51:50 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: who had that headline?
1094 2012-02-28 23:51:50 <etotheipi_> I don't know ... I feel like if you want to do something like that, just use different wallets instead of branches
1095 2012-02-28 23:52:04 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: i forget i think one of the vancouver papers
1096 2012-02-28 23:52:06 <BlueMatt> sipa: heh, I wouldnt be surprised judging by the quality of the sources of many online news-sources...
1097 2012-02-28 23:52:26 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: i have absolutely no idea what that is about
1098 2012-02-28 23:52:28 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: very funny, wonder if the headliner writer will get fired....
1099 2012-02-28 23:52:30 <etotheipi_> I guess most use cases I have envisioned, are trivially solved with a couple modifications of my existing DW implementation and multiple wallets
1100 2012-02-28 23:52:34 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: you meant Alabama
1101 2012-02-28 23:52:43 <BlueMatt> https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Santorum+comes+from+behind+in+Arizona+3-way%22#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22Santorum+comes+from+behind+in+Alabama+3-way%22&pbx=1&oq=%22Santorum+comes+from+behind+in+Alabama+3-way%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=16332l17408l0l17477l7l7l0l0l0l3l190l876l0.5l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=7770b38d4400a5d9&biw=1702&bih=917
1102 2012-02-28 23:52:46 <BlueMatt> there are quite a few
1103 2012-02-28 23:52:57 <BlueMatt> damn you google for impenetrable links
1104 2012-02-28 23:53:15 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: google define:santorum
1105 2012-02-28 23:53:28 <gavinandresen> yes, why are google search links so funky by default?  Must be the CIA again, tracking our every move....
1106 2012-02-28 23:53:45 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: LOL
1107 2012-02-28 23:54:02 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: read the wiki article for the (hilarious) backstory
1108 2012-02-28 23:54:31 JRWR has joined
1109 2012-02-28 23:54:53 * sipa is unsure about the usefulness of this page: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=mlist;sa=all
1110 2012-02-28 23:54:55 <BlueMatt> sipa: you didnt know santorum was defined as the frothy mixture of anal lube and shit?
1111 2012-02-28 23:55:07 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
1112 2012-02-28 23:55:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: no
1113 2012-02-28 23:55:45 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: now go back and watch some of the jon stewart clips from the last 2 months that you didn't get
1114 2012-02-28 23:55:49 <jrmithdobbs> enjoy ;p
1115 2012-02-28 23:55:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: note that I am not native english :)
1116 2012-02-28 23:56:13 <BlueMatt> TL;DR: some gay-rights activist started a campaign to define his last name as such after santorum (the person) called gays something negative that I dont remember
1117 2012-02-28 23:56:24 <BlueMatt> sipa: its not an actual word, it was redefined to cause headache for the person
1118 2012-02-28 23:56:34 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it was after the "gay marriage will lead to people wanting to marry dogs" tirade iirc
1119 2012-02-28 23:56:43 <BlueMatt> oh, yea that sounds right IIRC
1120 2012-02-28 23:57:24 <gavinandresen> ok, off-topic discussion of a sexual nature will heretofore be the signal that the official IRC meeting is over.  ANd it's dinner time, catch you all later....
1121 2012-02-28 23:57:36 <BlueMatt> see ya
1122 2012-02-28 23:57:53 <BlueMatt> (enjoy your dinner)
1123 2012-02-28 23:57:55 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1124 2012-02-28 23:57:56 <jrmithdobbs> all bitcoin meetings should end with a healthy dose of santorum
1125 2012-02-28 23:58:15 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: I wouldnt define santorum as healthy, more like a health risk if you ask me...
1126 2012-02-28 23:58:38 Z0rZ0rZ0r1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1127 2012-02-28 23:58:51 <jrmithdobbs> heh
1128 2012-02-28 23:59:18 <luke-jr> could be worse
1129 2012-02-28 23:59:51 <jrmithdobbs> for president? not by much.