1 2012-03-05 00:01:24 <luke-jr> sipa: it's not a 20-byte hash, so I have no idea
  2 2012-03-05 00:01:36 <luke-jr> (the spec I wrote up only made sense for 20 bytes of data)
  3 2012-03-05 00:01:55 <luke-jr> sipa: I suppose the best choice would be one that is avoided for 20-byte data
  4 2012-03-05 00:02:05 <luke-jr> could try to follow the same rules for choosing I guess too
  5 2012-03-05 00:02:56 <zeiris> So I tried the qt client on windows, and I'm seeing some problems. 1. crashing 2. not shutting down cleanly, lock file not being removed 3. UI could be cleaned up. I'll see if I can fix up 3 a bit, but 1 and 2 are beyond my familiarity with the code. Are they known problems, or is my machine special?
  6 2012-03-05 00:03:18 <sipa> zeiris: they certainly shouldn't happen
  7 2012-03-05 00:03:24 <sipa> are you using 0.6.0rc2?
  8 2012-03-05 00:03:40 <sipa> there are a lot of unsolved but oft-reported problems with the windows build though
  9 2012-03-05 00:04:20 <zeiris> I'm using 0.5.2-beta, the .zip build off bitcoin.org front page.
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 11 2012-03-05 00:06:28 <luke-jr> sipa: perhaps 2 for Pub and 10 for Priv?
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 13 2012-03-05 00:07:00 <sipa> that means the data classes have run out
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 16 2012-03-05 00:08:21 <sipa> these would carry around 70 bytes of data, so losing an extra one is not really a problem
 17 2012-03-05 00:08:37 <luke-jr> so different size from normal pub/priv keys?
 18 2012-03-05 00:08:49 <luke-jr> 6/12 in that case ;)
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 20 2012-03-05 00:09:23 <sipa> that makes sense
 21 2012-03-05 00:09:57 <sipa> they are soft of an extended version of public or private keys
 22 2012-03-05 00:10:01 <sipa> sort
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 28 2012-03-05 00:43:50 <Raccoon> Is there some property about virgin bitcoins that makes them immediately obvious when they are first spent?
 29 2012-03-05 00:44:17 <Raccoon> without having to dig too far
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 33 2012-03-05 00:55:11 <k9quaint> Raccoon: the hymen-hash is still intact
 34 2012-03-05 00:55:26 <Raccoon> lol.
 35 2012-03-05 00:56:22 <k9quaint> I would imagine coins that have just been mined appear in only one TX
 36 2012-03-05 00:58:35 <sipa> k9quaint: coins are transactions
 37 2012-03-05 01:00:11 minimoose has joined
 38 2012-03-05 01:04:47 <k9quaint> sipa: yes
 39 2012-03-05 01:07:10 <sipa> so all coins only appear in one transaction
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 41 2012-03-05 01:08:03 <sipa> generated coins are only special in the sense that their corresponding transactions have no inputs, i.e. cannot be traced back further
 42 2012-03-05 01:08:57 <luke-jr> hum
 43 2012-03-05 01:09:05 <luke-jr> I guess Bitcoin is doing pretty good
 44 2012-03-05 01:09:06 ziglir has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 45 2012-03-05 01:09:26 <luke-jr> I just realized that my "nice" profit on reselling a BitFORCE FPGA miner … is a loss if measured in Bitcoins
 46 2012-03-05 01:10:14 <gmaxwell> hah
 47 2012-03-05 01:10:24 <splatster> wow
 48 2012-03-05 01:10:44 <sipa> heh?
 49 2012-03-05 01:10:46 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 50 2012-03-05 01:10:51 <luke-jr> bought for 207 BTC (500 USD)
 51 2012-03-05 01:11:01 <luke-jr> about to sell for 170 BTC (800 USD)
 52 2012-03-05 01:11:17 <sipa> ha, nice
 53 2012-03-05 01:11:34 <luke-jr> having second thoughts on the sale now >_<
 54 2012-03-05 01:11:53 <sipa> basically, you lost on the device, but won in speculation
 55 2012-03-05 01:12:18 <sipa> from the viewpoint of bitcoin as base currency
 56 2012-03-05 01:12:23 <luke-jr> sipa: well, I don't *have* to sell the device yet <.<
 57 2012-03-05 01:13:00 <luke-jr> otoh, not sure it will break even if everyone's buying them now
 58 2012-03-05 01:15:14 <sipa> luke-jr: how many Mhash/s do they do in practice?
 59 2012-03-05 01:16:25 <luke-jr> ~820 MH/s on average, at 72 F ambient temp
 60 2012-03-05 01:16:43 <sipa> nice
 61 2012-03-05 01:17:01 <luke-jr> at higher ambient temps, they throttle by shutting off when necessary to cool down
 62 2012-03-05 01:18:05 <sipa> ;;calc (72-32)*5/9
 63 2012-03-05 01:18:05 <gribble> 22.2222222222
 64 2012-03-05 01:18:27 <sipa> (degrees celsius)
 65 2012-03-05 01:19:08 <splatster> ;;bids 4.85
 66 2012-03-05 01:19:09 <gribble> There are currently 6925.1382 bitcoins demanded at or over 4.85 USD, worth 33861.8439587 USD in total.
 67 2012-03-05 01:19:15 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
 68 2012-03-05 01:19:16 <Raccoon> What's the avg Hash/Coin these days?
 69 2012-03-05 01:19:40 <luke-jr> ~3.8 Tonal Temps fwiw ;)
 70 2012-03-05 01:19:55 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 820000
 71 2012-03-05 01:19:56 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 820000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1496978.5950256 , is 0.550962635551 BTC per day and 0.0229567764813 BTC per hour.
 72 2012-03-05 01:20:25 <sipa> ;;calc [bc,diff]*2**48/65535/50
 73 2012-03-05 01:20:26 <gribble> 1.28591444319e+14
 74 2012-03-05 01:20:52 <Raccoon> luke-jr: how many watts does it consume?
 75 2012-03-05 01:21:19 <sipa> Raccoon: 1.28 million billion hashes to generate 1 BTC
 76 2012-03-05 01:21:24 <luke-jr> Raccoon: not sure
 77 2012-03-05 01:21:45 <Raccoon> should get you a Kill-A-Watt :)
 78 2012-03-05 01:21:53 <luke-jr> I wouldn't mind :p
 79 2012-03-05 01:22:00 <sipa> luke-jr: how are tonal temps defined?
 80 2012-03-05 01:23:07 <luke-jr> sipa: 0 Tp = 0 C; 10 Tp = 100 C
 81 2012-03-05 01:23:25 <luke-jr> sipa: note that's tonal 10, aka decimal 16
 82 2012-03-05 01:23:42 <sipa> right :)
 83 2012-03-05 01:24:08 <Raccoon> well, at a $5/BTC market, the rig is worth roughly $1002.75 per annum, not counting energy costs.
 84 2012-03-05 01:24:31 <luke-jr> Raccoon: warranty is 6 months ;p
 85 2012-03-05 01:24:47 <luke-jr> Raccoon: also, you forget difficulty adjustments
 86 2012-03-05 01:24:51 <Raccoon> aye
 87 2012-03-05 01:24:57 <luke-jr> if everyone buys up on FPGAs, diff will shoot up
 88 2012-03-05 01:25:00 <Raccoon> just a roughtimate
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 91 2012-03-05 01:25:12 <Raccoon> would be nifty to know the wattage
 92 2012-03-05 01:25:15 <luke-jr> I guess I should consider selling at a loss just to avoid the risk of a greater loss…
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 94 2012-03-05 01:25:44 <luke-jr> otoh, if I can hack it to do other stuff, might have some other value
 95 2012-03-05 01:26:16 <Raccoon> use it to bruteforce mtgox's private keys
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 97 2012-03-05 01:26:36 <luke-jr> Raccoon: impossible
 98 2012-03-05 01:26:41 <Raccoon> :)
 99 2012-03-05 01:27:06 <luke-jr> it's too bad Bitcoin didn't use some algorithm that could scale <.<
100 2012-03-05 01:27:20 <luke-jr> ie, let the user/client decide whether 512 bit is appropriate or 8196 bit
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107 2012-03-05 01:36:36 <forrestv> luke-jr, something like that is possible, though it might not have the exact same properties - use multisig and require all signatures
108 2012-03-05 01:36:55 <luke-jr> true
109 2012-03-05 01:39:13 * nathan7 pats ChanServ
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111 2012-03-05 01:42:36 <Joric> https://github.com/joric/pyblockchain updated ) now it draws charts http://goo.gl/jAsjr
112 2012-03-05 01:42:56 <gmaxwell> forrestv: only improves linearly, alas.
113 2012-03-05 01:43:19 <gmaxwell> forrestv: at the same time— the computational load of validation is a major consideration too.
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121 2012-03-05 02:02:27 <forrestv> ah, oops
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140 2012-03-05 03:44:39 <rebel> so I'm running 0.3.24-beta on ubuntu. can I just readd the bitcoin ppa, update bitcoin & everything will be fine?
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174 2012-03-05 05:28:18 <FaktioNN> When doing an API call to pull all receiving addresses, I get an empty set even though I specify to include empty address accounts. Don't all wallets start with one empty receiving address?
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197 2012-03-05 07:06:53 <draco49> Is there a way to list every addr in a wallet, including those that are not associated with a particular account, using bitcoind?
198 2012-03-05 07:08:05 <Cory> "Listing the bitcoin addresses in your wallet is easily done via listreceivedbyaddress. It normally lists only addresses which already have received transactions, however you can list all the addresses by setting the first argument to 0, and the second one to true."
199 2012-03-05 07:11:09 <draco49> thx Cory
200 2012-03-05 07:11:24 <Cory> <3
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253 2012-03-05 10:15:58 <zeiris> How long does it normally take to synchronize with the network from a clean install?
254 2012-03-05 10:16:30 <zeiris> On my EEEPC 1005HA, and 6 year old Toshiba Satellite laptop, it's taken like 10 hours to get to 87%. Possibly more.
255 2012-03-05 10:19:31 nexes has joined
256 2012-03-05 10:29:33 <cyberdo> isn't that related to connection speed rather than CPU?
257 2012-03-05 10:30:50 <sturles> CPU and disk I/O normally.
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266 2012-03-05 10:54:12 <libcoin> On an optimal connection time is used on database access and verification (ECC signature checks)
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269 2012-03-05 10:56:54 <denisx> what does the unlocked_until in getinfo stands for?
270 2012-03-05 10:57:34 <denisx> for me it has always a value of zero, wallet unlocked or not
271 2012-03-05 10:57:40 <libcoin> However, I have seen slow updates too, that resulted in some kind of bad mutex/thread management - I do a clean update on my MacBook Pro in about 60minutes using libcoin/bitcoind, with bitcoin/bitcoind it takes 3.5 hour. However, on other platforms the timing is more equal (see e.g. : https://github.com/ceptacle/libcoin/wiki/Performance-tests )
272 2012-03-05 10:57:59 zeiris has quit (Quit: segfault)
273 2012-03-05 10:58:17 <libcoin> if you do a unlock of the wallet using RPC it will be unlocked for, say, 2 minutes
274 2012-03-05 10:58:23 <libcoin> getinfo will show you the time left
275 2012-03-05 10:58:32 <libcoin> (or should show you)
276 2012-03-05 10:59:46 Bwild has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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278 2012-03-05 11:00:05 <denisx> I think this is not working
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280 2012-03-05 11:00:57 <libcoin> I'll have a look at the code and will create a ticket if needed - thanks for noticing!
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284 2012-03-05 11:05:25 <denisx> I have also a problem with bitcoind walletpassphrase xxx 120
285 2012-03-05 11:05:36 <denisx> it says error: {"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected int"}
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287 2012-03-05 11:05:50 <denisx> when I do that again it says error: {"code":-17,"message":"Error: Wallet is already unlocked."}
288 2012-03-05 11:10:38 <libcoin> Have you tried if the time you enter actually matches the time it is unlocked ?
289 2012-03-05 11:11:03 <libcoin> (could be that the error comes from the client, that then converts to int and everything is then fine)
290 2012-03-05 11:11:14 <denisx> how can I see that without starting a transaction?
291 2012-03-05 11:11:50 <libcoin> do like you did: bitcoind walletpassphrase xxx 10
292 2012-03-05 11:11:53 <libcoin> wait 10 sec
293 2012-03-05 11:11:57 <denisx> ah, ok
294 2012-03-05 11:11:59 <libcoin> and try again
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297 2012-03-05 11:14:25 <denisx> the timeout does not work
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299 2012-03-05 11:15:40 <libcoin> I will create a ticket
300 2012-03-05 11:16:12 <denisx> thanks
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303 2012-03-05 11:19:12 <freeman5> Hey
304 2012-03-05 11:19:27 <freeman5> can you help me for ecoinpool ? ^^
305 2012-03-05 11:23:13 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gronager opened issue 916 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/916>
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333 2012-03-05 12:57:10 erle- has joined
334 2012-03-05 12:58:06 <denisx> is there somewhere something like a transaction disassembler?
335 2012-03-05 12:58:16 <denisx> for something like that: 01000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ffffffff00ffffffff0100f2052a01000000434104c79d36929f092f388b6103fd66879083a124f8ab2dbbde91a3cc32d995e1ae5e8a6f7afe43d0d78fc588bba24c29b18f79ae8400d5c9d72deb2cdc18e9997201ac00000000
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356 2012-03-05 14:00:55 <lianj> denisx: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/bamE6QJ7fmmNqlYVB1cj/
357 2012-03-05 14:02:21 <denisx> lianj: thanks
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378 2012-03-05 14:59:34 <freewil> can anyone tell me what this means in debug.log...
379 2012-03-05 14:59:35 <freewil> getblocks 47429 to 00000000000000000000 limit 1021
380 2012-03-05 15:00:05 <freewil> my client seems to be stuck on a block on testnet
381 2012-03-05 15:01:42 <sipa> testnet is quite broken after the new rule was introduced
382 2012-03-05 15:02:02 <sipa> too many nodes using the old rule
383 2012-03-05 15:05:39 iocor has joined
384 2012-03-05 15:07:19 <kinlo> perhaps it is time to restart testnet with 0.6?
385 2012-03-05 15:07:46 <kinlo> altough - the difficulty has dropped enough lately to use it for testing again
386 2012-03-05 15:07:53 gavinandresen has joined
387 2012-03-05 15:09:11 <sipa> the problem is not the difficulty, the last change took care of that
388 2012-03-05 15:09:26 <sipa> the problem is that many invalid nodes remain, and their partial chains are still accepted
389 2012-03-05 15:09:33 <sipa> s/invalid/old/
390 2012-03-05 15:10:23 <kinlo> yeah, but you can only fix that by releasing the new version right?
391 2012-03-05 15:10:31 <kinlo> my testnet clients are still 0.5.x
392 2012-03-05 15:10:44 <gavinandresen> Then you're part of the problem
393 2012-03-05 15:11:19 <kinlo> I'm not running git - I'm running stable so I can test my other software against bitcoind with testnet coins that are easy to generate
394 2012-03-05 15:11:54 <kinlo> testnet is imho for both bitcoin development as well as development of other software talking to the bitcoin client
395 2012-03-05 15:11:58 <gavinandresen> You should probably be testing with a testnet-in-a-box setup
396 2012-03-05 15:12:16 <kinlo> probably :)
397 2012-03-05 15:12:37 <gavinandresen> Testnet as of right now is really for testing the new 0.6 features
398 2012-03-05 15:12:42 <kinlo> but asap as my current development project is fully in production, I will be upgrading to 0.6
399 2012-03-05 15:12:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: i think when the rules for testnet change in the future, it should really be reset as well
400 2012-03-05 15:12:56 <kinlo> I'll shutdown my testnet client so I won't disturb you :)
401 2012-03-05 15:13:02 <kinlo> untill I've upgraded it
402 2012-03-05 15:13:07 da2ce7 has joined
403 2012-03-05 15:13:16 <gavinandresen> sipa:  probably.  Although a reset is just as disruptive as what is happening now
404 2012-03-05 15:13:37 MartianW has joined
405 2012-03-05 15:13:46 <sipa> not really, nodes try to sync from the first node they connect to
406 2012-03-05 15:14:04 <sipa> if that node can give them 46000 valid blocks, they just get stuck afterwards
407 2012-03-05 15:14:05 topace has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
408 2012-03-05 15:14:38 <sipa> if that node can't give anything, i suppose it would fail sooner and find a new node faster
409 2012-03-05 15:14:41 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
410 2012-03-05 15:14:41 <sipa> maybe...
411 2012-03-05 15:14:53 <gavinandresen> The new DoS code will make it fail pretty fast
412 2012-03-05 15:14:59 <gavinandresen> (and disconnect the old-rules peer)
413 2012-03-05 15:15:16 <gavinandresen> ... but the old peers don't have that new code, of course....
414 2012-03-05 15:15:57 <freewil> what is it about 0.5.x  that causes problems on testnet
415 2012-03-05 15:16:03 <gavinandresen> I WOULD like to have a testnet reset, pre-mined with a chain that contains all the corner-cases we can think of for block validation rules
416 2012-03-05 15:16:04 <freewil> and does it affect the realnet
417 2012-03-05 15:16:06 BlueMatt has joined
418 2012-03-05 15:16:30 <sipa> freewil: the problem is that 0.5 is not 0.6, and it doesn't affect realnet
419 2012-03-05 15:16:34 <gavinandresen> freewil: there is a testnet-only rules change about block difficulty
420 2012-03-05 15:16:51 <sipa> gavinandresen's answer is probably more helpful :)
421 2012-03-05 15:16:57 <gavinandresen> freewil: ... designed so transactions always confirm on testnet within 20 or so minutes
422 2012-03-05 15:18:54 <freewil> oh well this is good to know
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441 2012-03-05 15:58:17 <luke-jr> I suppose I should backport the testnet changes to 0.4 and 0.5
442 2012-03-05 16:01:54 rdponticelli has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
443 2012-03-05 16:02:09 BlueMatt has joined
444 2012-03-05 16:05:37 <freewil> as long as 0.5.2 is the latest stable release - people will be using that on testnet
445 2012-03-05 16:10:08 erle- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
446 2012-03-05 16:10:26 <luke-jr> another solution could be a 0.6 rule that after <date>, the testnet magic numbers change
447 2012-03-05 16:10:41 <luke-jr> or something like that
448 2012-03-05 16:11:04 Dyaheon has quit ()
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450 2012-03-05 16:11:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: want to build 0.5.3rc3 ?
451 2012-03-05 16:12:00 impostor is now known as mcorlett
452 2012-03-05 16:12:08 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
453 2012-03-05 16:13:53 <BlueMatt> we have one of those?
454 2012-03-05 16:14:54 <BlueMatt> yea, Ill do it sometime later today
455 2012-03-05 16:15:20 <luke-jr> k
456 2012-03-05 16:15:31 <luke-jr> I'll try to do a build too
457 2012-03-05 16:15:38 <copumpkin> ;;seen roconnor
458 2012-03-05 16:15:38 <gribble> roconnor was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 weeks, 3 days, 0 hours, 34 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <roconnor> Dear user n27pHgA6KioCvXUCdijzdFjeaa9kHA7kzi, Due to your violation of bitcoin TOS your asset has been frozen and your private key is being disclosed as 9afaa65b092e4c82ea752080bee6ce53398207dca480f64c82f32bdb7f85b7e5. Have a nice day, and thank you for using bitcoin.
459 2012-03-05 16:16:08 * luke-jr ponders
460 2012-03-05 16:20:37 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
461 2012-03-05 16:26:48 Dyaheon has joined
462 2012-03-05 16:28:41 <lianj> bitcoin TOS?
463 2012-03-05 16:28:42 ThomasV has joined
464 2012-03-05 16:29:00 <luke-jr> lianj: pretty sure it was a joke
465 2012-03-05 16:29:11 <lianj> ah, haha. ok :)
466 2012-03-05 16:29:24 <BlueMatt> pretty sure? what you missed the whole block of code that uploads all private keys to gavin's server?
467 2012-03-05 16:29:40 <gavinandresen> ssshhhh
468 2012-03-05 16:30:22 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry
469 2012-03-05 16:30:34 <gavinandresen> Those private keys are 100% guaranteed to be there just in case, to keep the network safe.
470 2012-03-05 16:30:42 <lianj> ^^
471 2012-03-05 16:30:59 <gavinandresen> I really shouldn't joke like that, somebody will think we're serious....
472 2012-03-05 16:31:20 <luke-jr> btw, anyone check that the GitHub exploit wasn't used on Bitcoin's repos?
473 2012-03-05 16:31:31 <lianj> "TOS changes allow gavinandresen to keep key backups"
474 2012-03-05 16:31:37 <BlueMatt> meh, anyone who actually believes that (and that we would be so frank about it) probably cant do too much damage...
475 2012-03-05 16:31:54 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: wouldnt git notice when you fetch?
476 2012-03-05 16:32:05 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not if it was a fast-forward :P
477 2012-03-05 16:32:21 <BlueMatt> wouldnt git mention that there was a fast-forward in the fetch?
478 2012-03-05 16:32:23 <gavinandresen> yes, git is pretty hack-proof, if git pull says up-to-date then there was no hack of the soruce
479 2012-03-05 16:32:25 <luke-jr> yes
480 2012-03-05 16:32:46 <luke-jr> I'm worried that someone could have possibly slipped something into an apparently harmless merge
481 2012-03-05 16:32:51 <luke-jr> I read every commit *except* merges
482 2012-03-05 16:34:01 <BlueMatt> as long as the head commitid didnt change, we should be good afaik
483 2012-03-05 16:34:16 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the head changes all the time
484 2012-03-05 16:34:35 <gavinandresen> A bigger worry would be sourceforge getting compromised, and somebody slipping a modified bitcoin-setup.exe to every 100'th downloader
485 2012-03-05 16:34:36 <BlueMatt> well changed aside from actual merges
486 2012-03-05 16:34:43 <BlueMatt> (that happened during the attack)
487 2012-03-05 16:35:00 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: gitian-downloader ;)
488 2012-03-05 16:35:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: what if someone picked a random pull request that looked mature, created a merge commit that injected an exploit, then pushed that as Gavin?
489 2012-03-05 16:35:21 <BlueMatt> ofc gitian-downloader has to be downloaded and proven to be secure...
490 2012-03-05 16:35:33 * luke-jr wonders if gitian could be made to use a chroot with the same results
491 2012-03-05 16:35:38 <gavinandresen> gitian-downloader would definitely be good.  A multisig wallet would mitigate that threat, too....
492 2012-03-05 16:35:45 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: nod, but Im hoping gavin would have noticed that...
493 2012-03-05 16:35:47 <BlueMatt> anyway...
494 2012-03-05 16:36:02 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Id like to see auto-update on win32 via gitian
495 2012-03-05 16:36:30 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'd like to see win32 disappear
496 2012-03-05 16:36:35 <luke-jr> lol
497 2012-03-05 16:36:40 <BlueMatt> well, ok that too
498 2012-03-05 16:37:32 <gavinandresen> Catch y'all later, I've got to eat lunch then head out for a meeting.
499 2012-03-05 16:37:46 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
500 2012-03-05 16:37:47 <BlueMatt> see ya
501 2012-03-05 16:37:53 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
502 2012-03-05 16:37:54 MC1984 has joined
503 2012-03-05 16:39:05 Zarutian has joined
504 2012-03-05 16:42:14 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: mndrix opened pull request 917 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/917>
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530 2012-03-05 18:25:57 mcorlett is now known as pope_popescu
531 2012-03-05 18:26:39 pope_popescu is now known as mcorlette
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541 2012-03-05 18:43:13 mcorlette is now known as gribble
542 2012-03-05 18:43:21 gribble is now known as mcorlett
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548 2012-03-05 18:53:12 localhost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
549 2012-03-05 18:54:14 <Raccoon> so which bitcoind flags do I want to run as a local json server?
550 2012-03-05 18:54:34 <Raccoon> or better than flags, .conf
551 2012-03-05 18:56:45 nanotube has joined
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562 2012-03-05 19:14:30 gribble is now known as imsaguy
563 2012-03-05 19:17:17 nanotube has joined
564 2012-03-05 19:21:19 <BlueMatt> server
565 2012-03-05 19:21:21 <BlueMatt> or -server
566 2012-03-05 19:24:54 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
567 2012-03-05 19:27:38 larsivi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
568 2012-03-05 19:30:43 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Don't push the red button!)
569 2012-03-05 19:35:20 <[eval]> i can't seem to create a wiki account. also, the front page of the wiki has been spammed with some sort of jewelry/sunglasses spam.
570 2012-03-05 19:37:06 <BlueMatt> ask MagicalTux
571 2012-03-05 19:37:15 <BlueMatt> or maybe one of the other admins
572 2012-03-05 19:38:37 <[eval]> ok :) thanks!
573 2012-03-05 19:38:48 <lianj> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=history # looks like Zhoucn9999 started on 24th till 26th, and stopped because none deleted it anymore
574 2012-03-05 19:41:57 localhost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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579 2012-03-05 20:14:43 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
580 2012-03-05 20:15:32 <TD> i already emailed mark about it
581 2012-03-05 20:15:53 <Diablo-D3> what happened now?
582 2012-03-05 20:15:57 <Diablo-D3> do I have to rape someone?
583 2012-03-05 20:20:27 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, "Bitcoin uses cookies to log in users. You have cookies disabled. Please enable them and try again. "
584 2012-03-05 20:20:30 <phantomcircuit> wiki is broken
585 2012-03-05 20:20:55 <phantomcircuit> im guessing disk full or memcached down
586 2012-03-05 20:22:28 dlb76 has quit ()
587 2012-03-05 20:22:29 <[eval]> TD: thanks!
588 2012-03-05 20:24:52 RobinPKR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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593 2012-03-05 20:27:40 copumpkin is now known as tirubotuttelemon
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597 2012-03-05 20:32:12 <[eval]> hrm
598 2012-03-05 20:33:11 <[eval]> if tx replacement is re-enabled, it'd be good to show whether unconfirmed transactions are final or not
599 2012-03-05 20:34:10 <ziglir> :=0
600 2012-03-05 20:34:15 <ziglir> cool
601 2012-03-05 20:37:21 <TD> [eval]: np
602 2012-03-05 20:39:24 tirubotutto is now known as copumpkin
603 2012-03-05 20:48:43 <ziglir> spammer took over the wiki
604 2012-03-05 20:50:49 slush has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
605 2012-03-05 20:51:01 erle- has joined
606 2012-03-05 20:53:13 <luke-jr> Warning: Unknown: open(/www/b/bi/bitcoin.it/sessions/sess_7b762a1881ba9b3800ea1eefdc4921b2, O_RDWR) failed: Read-only file system (30) in Unknown on line 0
607 2012-03-05 20:55:20 <jrmithdobbs> did you lose your target?
608 2012-03-05 20:55:21 <jrmithdobbs> heh
609 2012-03-05 20:55:24 <jrmithdobbs> always fun
610 2012-03-05 20:55:51 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, shared hosting?
611 2012-03-05 20:57:08 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
612 2012-03-05 21:05:56 <helo> coincidence that -otc wiki is down too?
613 2012-03-05 21:09:26 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
614 2012-03-05 21:09:56 pusle has quit ()
615 2012-03-05 21:09:58 <phantomcircuit> lol
616 2012-03-05 21:10:06 <phantomcircuit> skype is telling me it's tradehill's birthday
617 2012-03-05 21:10:11 <phantomcircuit> happy birth... oh wait
618 2012-03-05 21:13:15 * luke-jr deposited his USD withdrawl from TradeHill today
619 2012-03-05 21:13:31 <phantomcircuit> check?
620 2012-03-05 21:14:26 <mod6> thats good, luke-jr.
621 2012-03-05 21:15:10 <mod6> Good on them too for settling up with you.
622 2012-03-05 21:15:24 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: yes
623 2012-03-05 21:15:44 <luke-jr> I have some euro and other balances too, but no way to withdraw those :/
624 2012-03-05 21:16:11 <mod6> ouch :|
625 2012-03-05 21:17:02 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
626 2012-03-05 21:18:01 <jrmithdobbs> mod6: i'm sure they'll settle up with people who's names will be recognizable by others as at least seeming credible, i wouldn't bet on much more than that
627 2012-03-05 21:18:25 <jrmithdobbs> but i'm pretty damned pessimistic
628 2012-03-05 21:27:29 dlb76 has joined
629 2012-03-05 21:29:11 BlueMatt has joined
630 2012-03-05 21:35:25 <TD> it appears that the wikis stylesheet has vanished
631 2012-03-05 21:35:43 <TD> it's kind of interesting to see articles in web 1.0 style
632 2012-03-05 21:35:49 <TD> all it needs now is a grey background
633 2012-03-05 21:38:42 <BlueMatt> heh
634 2012-03-05 21:43:19 <[eval]> that or some butterfly animated cursors and rainbow unicorns on a pink background... after all, april fool's day is coming up :P
635 2012-03-05 21:43:50 <[eval]> wonder if someone will do an april fool's day BIP like the RFCs that IETF does :P
636 2012-03-05 21:44:18 <Diablo-D3> dont forget the win95 banners
637 2012-03-05 21:44:19 * BlueMatt nominates [eval] to do that
638 2012-03-05 21:44:37 <BlueMatt> but I do think that would be funny
639 2012-03-05 21:44:42 * [eval] is already thinking of ideas :P
640 2012-03-05 21:45:07 <Diablo-D3> http://adterrasperaspera.com/images/banner1.gif
641 2012-03-05 21:45:08 <Diablo-D3> http://adterrasperaspera.com/images/banner3.gif
642 2012-03-05 21:45:26 <[eval]> though i'd rather spend my limited time trying figure out how to re-enable tx replacement :P
643 2012-03-05 21:45:45 <BlueMatt> heh
644 2012-03-05 21:49:37 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
645 2012-03-05 21:50:01 someONEEE has joined
646 2012-03-05 21:50:12 random_cat has joined
647 2012-03-05 21:50:49 <[eval]> playing with unit testing :P
648 2012-03-05 21:50:55 <BlueMatt> nice
649 2012-03-05 21:53:41 <someONEEE> Hello! I'm trying to figure out how the essence of the bitcoin system works. Been reading the white-paper (original doc of satoshi), stackexchange and more yet still didn't get it throughly, technically speaking. I'm also into running my own private network, sort of testing environment, so I'll have to generate my own "genesis" block etc'.
650 2012-03-05 21:53:47 <someONEEE> So, before I'm jumping into others' code (like the official C++ client) - is there any online doc I should be reading that would accelerate this process? Thank you!
651 2012-03-05 21:54:29 <someONEEE> (I'm coming from a developer perspective)
652 2012-03-05 21:55:31 <[eval]> the wiki has a lot of good (but sometimes incomplete/disorganized) info, too
653 2012-03-05 21:55:32 <midnightmagic> someONEEE: unfortunately, there's no one, polished doc which explains stuff in a way that is both intuitive, and fully technically correct. only the source code itself is, unfortunately, your authoritative guide.
654 2012-03-05 21:55:33 <helo> could you just start two nodes on a closed network, using -addnode x.x.x.x on both to add the other?
655 2012-03-05 21:55:44 <helo> and start with cpu mining enabled
656 2012-03-05 21:56:08 <helo> dunno about genesis block...
657 2012-03-05 21:56:08 <[eval]> helo: use -connect instead of -addnode to prevent trying to connect to realnet :P
658 2012-03-05 21:57:09 <helo> that would be fun...
659 2012-03-05 21:57:32 tower has joined
660 2012-03-05 21:59:16 <someONEEE> I see. So I'm going to have to face it the "hard" way. Amazingly interesting thing. Thanks.
661 2012-03-05 22:01:12 <TD> someONEEE: if you have specific questions we'll be happy to answer them
662 2012-03-05 22:01:24 <TD> someONEEE: you may also want to look at bitcoinj. it implements a simpler form of the protocol in java
663 2012-03-05 22:01:35 <TD> i'd say the code is somewhat easier to navigate, though i am biased :)
664 2012-03-05 22:02:34 <lianj> yes, it is :)
665 2012-03-05 22:02:35 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
666 2012-03-05 22:02:52 <someONEEE> @TD: Thank you that's one. Second, yes, been looking at briefly already, along with others.
667 2012-03-05 22:03:07 <someONEEE> * at it (the java client)
668 2012-03-05 22:03:20 larsivi has joined
669 2012-03-05 22:08:38 <[eval]> TD: i like your NAC idea and also had the idea that DACs could be used for collaboratively contributing to mining fees
670 2012-03-05 22:09:28 <[eval]> although i like the idea of using a DAC to fund ASIC development too :P
671 2012-03-05 22:10:14 <TD> heh, yeah
672 2012-03-05 22:10:24 <TD> pragmatically kickstarter is probably a better platform for that today
673 2012-03-05 22:10:37 RazielZ has joined
674 2012-03-05 22:10:51 <TD> i look for applications that really benefit from the zero trust paradigm, apps you can't do in any other way
675 2012-03-05 22:11:04 <[eval]> true, but kickstarter doesn't allow DACs, just regular ACs
676 2012-03-05 22:11:42 <TD> right
677 2012-03-05 22:11:54 <TD> i've never been totally convinced by the game theory of DACs
678 2012-03-05 22:11:55 <BlueMatt> someONEEE: there are some pretty good technical interviews and podcasts which discussed bitcoin
679 2012-03-05 22:12:03 <BlueMatt> someONEEE: try looking for omega tau bitcoin (IIRC)
680 2012-03-05 22:12:09 <TD> i may be wrong, but i have a vague feeling there are no real world examples of such a contract
681 2012-03-05 22:12:21 <BlueMatt> yeay, thats the one: http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-decentralized-currency/
682 2012-03-05 22:12:37 <[eval]> TD: i think you're right but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be :)
683 2012-03-05 22:13:07 <jrmithdobbs> TD: define dac/ac?
684 2012-03-05 22:13:15 <TD> [dominant] assurance contract
685 2012-03-05 22:13:19 <TD> as discussed on the wiki
686 2012-03-05 22:13:22 <[eval]> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_contract <--
687 2012-03-05 22:14:23 <TD> other than funding community projects and network security, i haven't come up with any really interesting applications of assurance contracts
688 2012-03-05 22:14:29 <TD> but i'm sure they are out there
689 2012-03-05 22:14:38 <BlueMatt> other than mining?
690 2012-03-05 22:14:46 <[eval]> a DAC could be structured so that in the timelocked transaction, the entrepreneur's collateral can go partially to fees rather than completely to the funders
691 2012-03-05 22:14:53 <[eval]> that way you pay for network fees either way!
692 2012-03-05 22:15:12 <jrmithdobbs> TD: oh this is just the formal definition of things like kickstarter/dev bounties/etc
693 2012-03-05 22:15:21 <TD> could be, yes. but then why take part? the thing that makes it dominant is that the participants get a fee if the contract fails
694 2012-03-05 22:15:27 <TD> if it's not the participants getting a fee, it's not a DAC anymoe
695 2012-03-05 22:15:39 <[eval]> TD: the participants get a fee, but the network also gets a fee
696 2012-03-05 22:15:51 <TD> ok
697 2012-03-05 22:15:54 <someONEEE> @BlueMatt: Listening - thanks!
698 2012-03-05 22:16:11 <TD> one interesting use of ACs might be the real-time provisioning of entertainment, like an internet radio station
699 2012-03-05 22:16:32 <[eval]> true... an hourly (or daily) fundraiser
700 2012-03-05 22:16:41 <TD> the problem with internet radio is it has to be funded with either donations or ads. you can charge for access to the stream, but nothing stops somebody just relaying it for less than what you charge, undercutting you
701 2012-03-05 22:17:04 <TD> you could instead have a radio player that negotiates with other listeners to raise the required amount on a minute-by-minute basis, even
702 2012-03-05 22:17:13 <TD> if the contract fails then the radio station switches off
703 2012-03-05 22:17:26 <BlueMatt> hmm, interesting
704 2012-03-05 22:17:37 <TD> s/radio station/multiplayer video game etc/
705 2012-03-05 22:17:52 <[eval]> this is awesome but i have to cut out, gotta take the oldest to cub scouts :/ still, that's awesome... and for using DACs, it's somewhat similar to "matching funds" in donations
706 2012-03-05 22:18:14 <[eval]> so there's something close to a real world example of DACs
707 2012-03-05 22:18:19 <TD> yeah that's true
708 2012-03-05 22:19:04 <[eval]> so for a donations-only radio station as you describe, you could have a "patron" that runs the DAC and manages the donation to the radio station
709 2012-03-05 22:19:17 <[eval]> and it'd be similar to matching funds
710 2012-03-05 22:20:43 <TD> i guess (human) translations of web pages could be done in a similar fashion
711 2012-03-05 22:20:52 <TD> if you don't speak english you could configure your web browser with some bitcoins
712 2012-03-05 22:21:12 <TD> if you arrive at a page written in english your browser would automatically create a pledge to a translation firm
713 2012-03-05 22:21:25 <ziglir> interesting
714 2012-03-05 22:21:33 <TD> if enough people arrive simultaneously the pledges go over the cost of translation, triggering a real-time submission to a translation firm
715 2012-03-05 22:21:42 <TD> once it's complete the translation becomes available for free to whoever wants it
716 2012-03-05 22:24:37 <BlueMatt> hmm, fun
717 2012-03-05 22:25:08 jimmy_birer has joined
718 2012-03-05 22:25:12 <jimmy_birer> Hey guys
719 2012-03-05 22:25:17 <jimmy_birer> can someone explain mining to me?
720 2012-03-05 22:25:27 <jimmy_birer> Like,if i mine,who uses that power?
721 2012-03-05 22:25:35 <jimmy_birer> And why do i get coins for it?
722 2012-03-05 22:25:45 <kinlo> you should perhaps read the faq's on mining first
723 2012-03-05 22:25:53 <jimmy_birer> I read but didn`t understand
724 2012-03-05 22:25:55 <jimmy_birer> anything
725 2012-03-05 22:26:04 <jimmy_birer> it would be better if someone told me
726 2012-03-05 22:26:07 <BlueMatt> damn, the wiki is still down, it had a decent mining page
727 2012-03-05 22:26:19 <kinlo> eh, I just wanted to give him the link to that page
728 2012-03-05 22:26:25 <TD> google cache is your friend
729 2012-03-05 22:26:27 <[eval]> i wonder if it'd make sense to pitch DACs-instead-of-matching-funds to philanthropists
730 2012-03-05 22:26:27 <kinlo> that explains why it's not loading :
731 2012-03-05 22:26:49 <[eval]> i could see him and patri friedman using DACs to raise funds for seasteading instead of matching funds :P
732 2012-03-05 22:26:55 <jimmy_birer> google shows me no options
733 2012-03-05 22:27:00 <jimmy_birer> to read from cache
734 2012-03-05 22:27:06 <BlueMatt> TD: not in cache for some reason...
735 2012-03-05 22:27:18 <TD> annoying
736 2012-03-05 22:27:22 <jimmy_birer> So someone explain me what mining does
737 2012-03-05 22:27:30 <[eval]> k, i'm out for real now
738 2012-03-05 22:27:31 <TD> jimmy_birer: if you mine, you are using the electricity. it goes on your bill.
739 2012-03-05 22:27:36 <TD> [eval]: have a good evening
740 2012-03-05 22:27:59 <TD> jimmy_birer: you are turning that electricity into security for all bitcoin users. that's why you are rewarded with money.
741 2012-03-05 22:28:08 <TD> you provide a useful service -> you get compensated for it
742 2012-03-05 22:28:09 <jimmy_birer> Ah
743 2012-03-05 22:28:14 <jimmy_birer> thanks very much
744 2012-03-05 22:28:18 <jimmy_birer> that was all what i asked for
745 2012-03-05 22:28:32 <jimmy_birer> thanks for clearing it TD
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753 2012-03-05 22:44:27 bitcoinsarefun is now known as zz_bitcoinsarefu
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758 2012-03-05 22:54:11 <midnightmagic> TD: I'd been very sternly told that an increase in hashrate in the form of a more efficient mining mechanism doesn't equate to additional protection for the network if that mechanism is available to the public, since it's also available to attackers.
759 2012-03-05 22:54:16 <midnightmagic> I lol'd at that..
760 2012-03-05 22:54:27 <TD> hum
761 2012-03-05 22:55:00 <nanotube> well, that depends on the cost of the mechanism.
762 2012-03-05 22:56:53 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: uh
763 2012-03-05 22:56:55 <Diablo-D3> wow thats bullshit
764 2012-03-05 22:57:20 <Diablo-D3> it makes it more difficult because even if the attackers have it, its not helping them enough
765 2012-03-05 22:57:51 <freewil> yeah i think the problem only exists if only the attackers have it
766 2012-03-05 22:58:05 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: the only valid reason for keeping a superior mechanism private would be personal advantage, and that only really works if you can keep it properly secret.
767 2012-03-05 22:58:13 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: oh and
768 2012-03-05 22:58:39 <Diablo-D3> even if you want to accept the premise that attacker growth is linear to global growth for any given enhancement...
769 2012-03-05 22:58:44 <Diablo-D3> (I dont, mind you)
770 2012-03-05 22:58:53 dvide has quit ()
771 2012-03-05 22:58:59 <Diablo-D3> global growth is NOT linear to attacker growth
772 2012-03-05 22:59:08 <Diablo-D3> attackers can produce enhancements that give them the edge
773 2012-03-05 22:59:12 <Diablo-D3> and NOT release them
774 2012-03-05 22:59:22 <copumpkin> *hax0rz
775 2012-03-05 22:59:25 <Diablo-D3> every enhancement people like me produce is one less enhancement they can use against us
776 2012-03-05 22:59:37 mrsy has joined
777 2012-03-05 22:59:43 <Diablo-D3> there is no such thing as security in obscurity.
778 2012-03-05 23:00:09 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: YES, see that was what I was telling them. The venn diagram of the universe of enhancements wasn't connected to them.
779 2012-03-05 23:00:42 <midnightmagic> oh well.
780 2012-03-05 23:00:52 <Diablo-D3> thank god they have zero influence on bitcoin
781 2012-03-05 23:01:11 <Diablo-D3> otherwise I'd have to beat them with a crowbar while laughing at them, instead of just laughing at them by itself
782 2012-03-05 23:01:33 <midnightmagic> well..  i wouldn't say completely zero. just close to it.
783 2012-03-05 23:04:06 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
784 2012-03-05 23:07:29 <helo> who are we laughing at?
785 2012-03-05 23:07:32 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
786 2012-03-05 23:07:48 copumpkin is now known as harmful
787 2012-03-05 23:08:24 harmful is now known as copumpkin
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