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  35 2012-03-08 02:17:39 DBordello has joined
  36 2012-03-08 02:18:09 <DBordello> I am trying to compile from the latest git.  However, after compiling bitcoinrpc.ccp I get the following error: g++: Internal error: Killed (program cc1plus)
  37 2012-03-08 02:18:11 <DBordello> thoughts?
  38 2012-03-08 02:18:27 <sipa> OOM?
  39 2012-03-08 02:18:36 <sipa> how much memory does yout system have?
  40 2012-03-08 02:18:57 * DBordello tries again and watches top
  41 2012-03-08 02:19:01 <DBordello> 612 MB i think
  42 2012-03-08 02:19:18 <DBordello> I think you are right
  43 2012-03-08 02:19:28 sacarlson has joined
  44 2012-03-08 02:19:59 <DBordello> Thank you
  45 2012-03-08 02:20:21 <DBordello> Is there an easy solution?  besides obvious ones, like get more memory
  46 2012-03-08 02:21:11 <Lubo_> Bigger swap?
  47 2012-03-08 02:21:41 <DBordello> It is an Amazon EC2 instance.  I guess I could activate swap
  48 2012-03-08 02:21:46 <DBordello> I imagine that would be *sloow*
  49 2012-03-08 02:23:06 <Lubo_> use own machine... or use crosscompiling with own machine
  50 2012-03-08 02:23:53 <DBordello> that is just unfortunate
  51 2012-03-08 02:23:54 Jamesz has joined
  52 2012-03-08 02:24:00 <Lubo_> you can check up the gentoo howto's. Its fun compiling KDE with 10 233mhz machines :P
  53 2012-03-08 02:24:07 <DBordello> good idea
  54 2012-03-08 02:26:56 <DBordello> Going again with 4 GB of "virtual swap"
  55 2012-03-08 02:27:02 <DBordello> yikes, i bet that will take a while
  56 2012-03-08 02:27:46 <sipa> DBordello: i advise using less swap
  57 2012-03-08 02:27:54 <DBordello> sipa, why is that?
  58 2012-03-08 02:28:11 zirpint has joined
  59 2012-03-08 02:28:20 <sipa> if you have more swap, gcc may think you have more memory (not sure about that though) and keep more in memory
  60 2012-03-08 02:28:37 <DBordello> I am hoping I can just clear this little hurdle and we be on my way
  61 2012-03-08 02:29:41 chk` has joined
  62 2012-03-08 02:29:41 <sipa> try 1 GiB
  63 2012-03-08 02:29:43 <sipa> swap
  64 2012-03-08 02:29:47 <sipa> that should suffice
  65 2012-03-08 02:29:52 <Lubo_> it should be just fine. I had no problems with 20GB swap and 192MB of RAM ;)
  66 2012-03-08 02:30:26 <DBordello> I already started with 4 GiB.  We will see how things go, I will report back
  67 2012-03-08 02:30:53 <sipa> ok
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  73 2012-03-08 02:39:03 <DBordello> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lz
  74 2012-03-08 02:39:07 <DBordello> I am missing something aren't I
  75 2012-03-08 02:39:19 minimoose has joined
  76 2012-03-08 02:39:31 <sipa> zlib-dev
  77 2012-03-08 02:39:52 <sipa> zlib1g-dev here
  78 2012-03-08 02:40:00 <sipa> see doc/build-unix.txt
  79 2012-03-08 02:40:29 <sipa> hmm, it doesn't mention zlib
  80 2012-03-08 02:40:57 <DBordello> that is what I thought :)
  81 2012-03-08 02:40:57 <luke-jr> he shouldn't need -dev O.o
  82 2012-03-08 02:41:13 <DBordello> I actually already have zlib-devel
  83 2012-03-08 02:41:16 <luke-jr> and bitcoind doesn't need zlib afaik
  84 2012-03-08 02:41:23 <luke-jr> libpng probably does
  85 2012-03-08 02:42:01 <luke-jr> DBordello: you might build with less memory, if you disable debug info
  86 2012-03-08 02:42:20 zirpint has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  87 2012-03-08 02:42:22 <luke-jr> also CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} --param ggc-min-expand=0 --param ggc-min-heapsize=32768"
  88 2012-03-08 02:42:36 <DBordello> so that I am not constantly bugging you, how did you know -lz was zlib?  I installed the static libraries and got further, now I am missing -ldl
  89 2012-03-08 02:42:38 zirpint has joined
  90 2012-03-08 02:42:46 <DBordello> luke-jr, I appreciate that
  91 2012-03-08 02:42:47 <DBordello> I'll give it a shot
  92 2012-03-08 02:43:13 <luke-jr> -lz mean libz. which is zlib.
  93 2012-03-08 02:43:25 <luke-jr> DBordello: why are you static linking?
  94 2012-03-08 02:43:47 h4ckm3th32nd has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  95 2012-03-08 02:43:53 <DBordello> because I don't know any better and am following a guide for compiling on CentOS
  96 2012-03-08 02:45:04 barmstrong has joined
  97 2012-03-08 02:46:11 <DBordello> So what is "ldl"?
  98 2012-03-08 02:48:31 <lianj> one from glibc
  99 2012-03-08 02:48:58 <DBordello> got it, thanks.  All compiled and nice
 100 2012-03-08 02:49:44 <sipa> DBordello: CentOS... that means you also compiled OpenSSL from source?
 101 2012-03-08 02:49:52 <DBordello> sipa, yes
 102 2012-03-08 02:49:54 Clipse has joined
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 105 2012-03-08 02:50:35 <sipa> good that there is functional guide for CentOS then; up to some time ago, people were using one for 0.3.24 :)
 106 2012-03-08 02:50:45 <DBordello> a pretty good guide too
 107 2012-03-08 02:50:49 <DBordello> it is actually a script
 108 2012-03-08 02:51:33 BlueMatt has joined
 109 2012-03-08 02:53:04 <DBordello> sipa, I was actually compiling so that I could use one of your patches https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/841
 110 2012-03-08 02:53:35 <luke-jr> DBordello: that's part of next-test fwiw
 111 2012-03-08 02:54:36 <zirpint> coool
 112 2012-03-08 02:54:45 <DBordello> what tree can I find next-test in?
 113 2012-03-08 02:55:02 <luke-jr> DBordello: my personal repo on Gitorious
 114 2012-03-08 02:55:17 <DBordello> let me give that a spin
 115 2012-03-08 02:55:25 <luke-jr> git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin.git
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 118 2012-03-08 02:57:16 <DBordello> luke-jr, FYI warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout.
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 121 2012-03-08 02:58:04 <luke-jr> DBordello: checkout next-test, not HEAD :P
 122 2012-03-08 02:58:14 <luke-jr> I don't publish a HEAD
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 125 2012-03-08 02:59:03 <DBordello> luke-jr, fair enough
 126 2012-03-08 02:59:32 <luke-jr> OR, just add it as a remote to your existing branch :p
 127 2012-03-08 03:00:19 <zirpint> "i swear on luke-jr's mullet"
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 145 2012-03-08 03:32:45 jacobwg has joined
 146 2012-03-08 03:36:27 <luke-jr> sipa: interestingly, it seems someone actually has a corrupt private key in their wallet :x
 147 2012-03-08 03:36:38 <luke-jr> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67798.msg789532#msg789532
 148 2012-03-08 03:39:48 chk` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 150 2012-03-08 03:41:49 <kish> bitcoind: malloc(): smallbin double linked list corrupted: 0x0000000004582770 ***
 151 2012-03-08 03:41:53 <kish> is that dangerous?
 152 2012-03-08 03:42:31 <sipa> that should never happen
 153 2012-03-08 03:42:43 <sipa> which version are you running, and what did you do?
 154 2012-03-08 03:42:54 <kish> i'm running 60000
 155 2012-03-08 03:42:55 <sipa> (it indicates memory corruption)
 156 2012-03-08 03:42:59 <sipa> git head?
 157 2012-03-08 03:43:09 <sipa> or 0.6.0rc2?
 158 2012-03-08 03:43:32 <kish> i added some gcc protection lines from an earlier version to the makefile
 159 2012-03-08 03:43:51 <kish> those lines were removed from 6
 160 2012-03-08 03:44:35 <sipa> ok, and what did you do to produce that error?
 161 2012-03-08 03:44:51 <kish> nothing, i just run the binary
 162 2012-03-08 03:45:04 <sipa> what's the last thing in debug.log ?
 163 2012-03-08 03:45:13 <sipa> (paste it somewhere, if possible)
 164 2012-03-08 03:47:46 <kish> how about in this channel
 165 2012-03-08 03:47:58 <kish> http://pastie.org/3545919
 166 2012-03-08 03:49:03 Karmaon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 167 2012-03-08 03:49:29 <kish> is it okay to run this 0.3.25-beta while i try fixing 6
 168 2012-03-08 03:50:36 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 169 2012-03-08 03:50:52 TheSeven has joined
 170 2012-03-08 03:51:25 <sipa> kish: that looks like a clean shutdown
 171 2012-03-08 03:53:35 JRWR has joined
 172 2012-03-08 03:54:47 Karmaon has joined
 173 2012-03-08 03:54:58 <kish> how do i make make not do the upnp compilöe
 174 2012-03-08 03:55:10 <sipa> make USE_UPNP=
 175 2012-03-08 03:55:26 <kish> thanks
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 181 2012-03-08 04:19:04 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: coretechs opened issue 920 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/920>
 182 2012-03-08 04:19:23 <nanotube> do we get to have a party when we hit 1024 issues? :)
 183 2012-03-08 04:19:23 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 184 2012-03-08 04:19:51 <Graet> sounds good!
 185 2012-03-08 04:20:13 * nanotube books a party room.
 186 2012-03-08 04:20:14 <nanotube> :
 187 2012-03-08 04:20:15 <nanotube> )
 188 2012-03-08 04:20:23 <Graet> :D
 189 2012-03-08 04:20:31 machine1 has joined
 190 2012-03-08 04:20:32 <Graet> we need more parties :)
 191 2012-03-08 04:20:37 <sipa> i'd prefer partying when we have 1024 closed issues ;)
 192 2012-03-08 04:20:38 andytoshi has joined
 193 2012-03-08 04:20:51 <andytoshi> hey guys, my client went into safe mode today
 194 2012-03-08 04:20:57 <andytoshi> after block 170059
 195 2012-03-08 04:20:58 <Graet> could have another for that sipa - bigger and better :D
 196 2012-03-08 04:21:12 <sipa> andytoshi: do you have the full chain?
 197 2012-03-08 04:21:18 <andytoshi> no, only to 170059
 198 2012-03-08 04:21:23 <andytoshi> but it is not downloading any further
 199 2012-03-08 04:21:42 <andytoshi> i was running git HEAD from feb 19, just updated to the latest, same error
 200 2012-03-08 04:21:46 <andytoshi> "WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
 201 2012-03-08 04:22:17 <sipa> can you try -connect=80.200.12.81 ? (my ip, i have the full chain and a fully updated client)
 202 2012-03-08 04:22:25 <andytoshi> sure, one moment
 203 2012-03-08 04:23:13 <Lubo_> can someone explain me why often an big pool did not know who is the real founder of the block and gives then the block to the person who shared the last share?
 204 2012-03-08 04:23:14 <andytoshi> same deal - it's like it's not even trying
 205 2012-03-08 04:23:46 <sipa> andytoshi: can you paste debug.log somewhere?
 206 2012-03-08 04:24:06 <sipa> it seems you're the only one with that issue
 207 2012-03-08 04:24:11 <andytoshi> how do i generate debug.log?
 208 2012-03-08 04:24:20 <sipa> it's always generated
 209 2012-03-08 04:24:34 <andytoshi> oh, i found it
 210 2012-03-08 04:25:49 <andytoshi> http://download.wpsoftware.net/debug.log
 211 2012-03-08 04:26:15 <andytoshi> 5.3Mb..should i have truncated it?
 212 2012-03-08 04:27:52 <zirpint> how many peers does the client connect to?
 213 2012-03-08 04:28:09 <sipa> do so next time
 214 2012-03-08 04:28:12 <sipa> zirpint: 8
 215 2012-03-08 04:28:29 <andytoshi> i see 10 in my log
 216 2012-03-08 04:28:30 <zirpint> 8s of state
 217 2012-03-08 04:28:36 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
 218 2012-03-08 04:28:37 <andytoshi> (i truncated the copy i hosted)
 219 2012-03-08 04:28:52 <zirpint> it wouldnt be too hard to isolate some nodes then
 220 2012-03-08 04:29:24 <zirpint> you would need a small % of the total # of nodes..with high probability someone will conect exclusively to your rogue nodes
 221 2012-03-08 04:29:46 <sipa> zirpint: they need to be all in different network /16 ranges
 222 2012-03-08 04:30:14 <sipa> (it never connects to two nodes within the same /16)
 223 2012-03-08 04:30:22 <sipa> andytoshi: can you run the client with -checkblocks ?
 224 2012-03-08 04:30:54 <andytoshi> sure, one moment
 225 2012-03-08 04:30:55 <Lubo_> you can also just save up your wallet file and delete everything else
 226 2012-03-08 04:31:06 <Lubo_> then rerun bitcoin client
 227 2012-03-08 04:31:10 <andytoshi> i ran out of memory earlier .. i suspect that is the cause
 228 2012-03-08 04:31:12 <andytoshi> Lubo
 229 2012-03-08 04:31:16 <andytoshi> i considered that
 230 2012-03-08 04:31:20 <andytoshi> but don't really want to..
 231 2012-03-08 04:31:24 <Lubo_> and wait till it get everything
 232 2012-03-08 04:31:33 <Lubo_> ok
 233 2012-03-08 04:34:00 zirpint has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 234 2012-03-08 04:34:12 <andytoshi> okay, checkblocks finished, but i'm getting the same error
 235 2012-03-08 04:34:25 <andytoshi> should i just delete the blockchain?
 236 2012-03-08 04:34:41 RobinPKR_ has joined
 237 2012-03-08 04:34:44 <andytoshi> if i'm the only one with this problem, maybe there's no point investigating too deeply
 238 2012-03-08 04:35:34 <sipa> keep your old block chain around, it may prove useful to investigate the issue if others have the same, but try redownloading it?
 239 2012-03-08 04:35:44 <andytoshi> sounds like a plan
 240 2012-03-08 04:35:49 <andytoshi> will probably be a few hours ;)
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 246 2012-03-08 04:45:55 <andytoshi> if i want to learn the code, what would be a good way to start?
 247 2012-03-08 04:45:59 <andytoshi> just reading source files?
 248 2012-03-08 04:47:07 <sipa> yes :)
 249 2012-03-08 04:47:15 <lianj> depends on what "the code" is. you could read other implementations, that (maybe) are easier to read
 250 2012-03-08 04:47:27 <sipa> bitcoinj is probably easier to learn the internals
 251 2012-03-08 04:47:31 <sipa> except scripting
 252 2012-03-08 04:47:45 <andytoshi> nah, i'd prefer to know the default client code, so things like this bug won't be such a mystery
 253 2012-03-08 04:47:51 <andytoshi> and i'm not a fan of java
 254 2012-03-08 04:48:28 <luke-jr> there's a couple of partial(?) Python implementations too
 255 2012-03-08 04:49:02 <andytoshi> i've seen them -- i'd like to contribute, but they are very incomplete last i checked
 256 2012-03-08 04:49:10 JRWR has joined
 257 2012-03-08 04:49:12 <lianj> ruby too :)
 258 2012-03-08 04:49:20 <sipa> armory is pretty complete
 259 2012-03-08 04:49:35 <sipa> but it has internals in C++ as well
 260 2012-03-08 04:52:16 <luke-jr> lianj: but Ruby is garbage :P
 261 2012-03-08 04:52:37 <luke-jr> I couldn't help LOL at their epic security vuln they continually insisted on ignoring.
 262 2012-03-08 04:52:48 <andytoshi> that was hilarious
 263 2012-03-08 04:53:25 <lianj> which one was that?
 264 2012-03-08 04:53:47 <luke-jr> lianj: the one the reporter finally used to exploit GitHub to prove his point
 265 2012-03-08 04:54:02 <luke-jr> by pushing an alien commit to the Rails repo
 266 2012-03-08 04:54:11 <lianj> luke-jr: yea, but rails != ruby..
 267 2012-03-08 04:54:17 <luke-jr> lianj: o rly
 268 2012-03-08 04:54:27 <luke-jr> what's the difference?
 269 2012-03-08 04:54:38 <sipa> what's the difference between Boost and C++?
 270 2012-03-08 04:54:44 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: bitaussie opened issue 921 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/921>
 271 2012-03-08 04:54:46 <lianj> so it was not 'their epic security vuln'
 272 2012-03-08 04:55:08 <luke-jr> btw, did I mention Gilgamesh can be LOL sometimes? :p
 273 2012-03-08 04:55:41 <andytoshi> boy, this is kinda #ifdef soup
 274 2012-03-08 04:55:44 <andytoshi> in init.cpp anyway
 275 2012-03-08 04:57:30 <lianj> luke-jr: btw, ruby fixed (backported to 1.8) their hashcollision bug faster than python folks ;)
 276 2012-03-08 04:57:46 <luke-jr> lianj: I actually hate Python.
 277 2012-03-08 04:58:03 <lianj> now, thats a good start :D
 278 2012-03-08 04:58:08 <forsetifox> I like python more than most languages except asm.
 279 2012-03-08 04:58:15 <andytoshi> what an odd statement
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 281 2012-03-08 04:58:49 <luke-jr> forsetifox: MIPS asm is nice
 282 2012-03-08 04:59:12 <forsetifox> I learned PIC assembly to play with microcontrollers. I love it.
 283 2012-03-08 04:59:20 <forsetifox> Only thing that sucks is character strings.
 284 2012-03-08 04:59:50 <andytoshi> arm assembly is my favorit
 285 2012-03-08 04:59:55 <andytoshi> favorite assembly, anyway
 286 2012-03-08 05:00:01 <forsetifox> Beeb meaning to learn that one too.
 287 2012-03-08 05:00:20 <forsetifox> ERm.. been.
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 366 2012-03-08 10:12:46 <Joric> etotheipi_, are you here?
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 369 2012-03-08 10:13:21 <Joric> how are you gonna design a fast blockchain indexer
 370 2012-03-08 10:13:26 sacarlson has joined
 371 2012-03-08 10:14:47 <Joric> i mean, without loading everything into a ram are you conna make your own streaming
 372 2012-03-08 10:18:10 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 374 2012-03-08 10:20:16 <ThomasV> "the instantiation is impaired by its poor parameters"!!!
 375 2012-03-08 10:20:26 <ThomasV> lol
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 387 2012-03-08 10:55:16 <finway> What does this mean ? InvalidChainFound: WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
 388 2012-03-08 10:55:42 <finway> Oh, i should search first.
 389 2012-03-08 10:55:47 <finway> never mind.
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 431 2012-03-08 14:03:29 <rebroad> Hi. I'm using ubuntu 11.10, and following readme-qt.rst, where it says to install libdb4.8++-dev, but apt-get says Package 'libdb4.8++-dev' has no installation candidate...
 432 2012-03-08 14:07:04 <sipa> ise 5.1 insteqd
 433 2012-03-08 14:07:11 <sipa> use 5.1 instead
 434 2012-03-08 14:07:49 <rebroad> ah, thanks sipa.. worth updating readme-qt.rst?
 435 2012-03-08 14:08:34 <sipa> no, not everyone uses a distro that doesn't have 4.8
 436 2012-03-08 14:09:00 <rebroad> not everyone has a distro that uses 4.8 either
 437 2012-03-08 14:09:19 <sipa> note that if you use 5.1 your wallet file will not be usable by people who use an older version
 438 2012-03-08 14:09:25 <rebroad> I wasn't suggesting making it say 5.1...
 439 2012-03-08 14:09:33 <sipa> and the releases are built using 4.8
 440 2012-03-08 14:10:18 <rebroad> ok, so it sounds like it's better to use 4.8 then
 441 2012-03-08 14:10:28 <sipa> yes, if possible
 442 2012-03-08 14:11:37 blumenkraft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 443 2012-03-08 14:12:27 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
 444 2012-03-08 14:12:27 <gribble> 11089.928634922979
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 446 2012-03-08 14:14:51 <rebroad> sipa, it's just that I'd like to help make the readme files as friendly as possible so people on most platforms can build without needing to Google, etc
 447 2012-03-08 14:15:24 <sipa> ok, a notice about recent distros not shipping 4.8 may be useful
 448 2012-03-08 14:16:08 blumenkraft has joined
 449 2012-03-08 14:16:20 <rebroad> that would help yes, or saying that recent distros have probably a later version and mentioning the incompatibility for wallet files if using a newer version
 450 2012-03-08 14:16:27 <rebroad> *and (not or)
 451 2012-03-08 14:17:07 imsaguy is now known as [\\\]
 452 2012-03-08 14:17:34 <sipa> indeed
 453 2012-03-08 14:18:01 <rebroad> lots of people also getting the "fatal error: boost/type_traits/is_fundamental.hpp: No such file or directory" too from the looks of the Google results
 454 2012-03-08 14:18:34 `0 is now known as [imsaguy]
 455 2012-03-08 14:19:11 BlueMatt has joined
 456 2012-03-08 14:19:26 <rebroad> I'd like to help such that I can edit the files in git.. re, the readme file mentioned for example, would that be something I can edit and submit the change?
 457 2012-03-08 14:19:32 cyberdo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 458 2012-03-08 14:20:58 <rebroad> I'm also stuck myself at that missing boost file...
 459 2012-03-08 14:21:35 <rebroad> I realise I'm a bit behind on the learning curve, but I'd like to use my ignorance to help improve the documentation for others - or is that a silly idea?
 460 2012-03-08 14:23:04 <sipa> far from silly
 461 2012-03-08 14:23:30 <rebroad> I'm happy to hear you agree
 462 2012-03-08 14:23:36 <sipa> on the forum, in the dev section, there is thread about how to submit pull requests
 463 2012-03-08 14:23:48 <sipa> it's sticky
 464 2012-03-08 14:23:53 <rebroad> ah. I shall try to find that now. thanks.
 465 2012-03-08 14:28:02 <rebroad> I notice there's already mention of Ubuntu 11.10 in the readme file, so maybe the way to get libdb4.8++-dev installed could go there
 466 2012-03-08 14:28:23 <rebroad> I've managed to get libdb4.8++ and libdb4.8-dev installed, but struggling to find libdb4.8++-dev currently
 467 2012-03-08 14:28:58 <rebroad> Getting:-  libdb4.8++-dev depends on libdb4.8-dev (= 4.8.30-5ubuntu2); however:
 468 2012-03-08 14:28:59 <rebroad>   Version of libdb4.8-dev on system is 4.8.30-9ubuntu1.
 469 2012-03-08 14:29:16 <sipa> yes, recent ubuntus miss the ++-dev one
 470 2012-03-08 14:29:43 cyberdo has joined
 471 2012-03-08 14:30:06 <rebroad> ah.. so I either need it from sources, or I need to downgrade the ++ and the -dev?
 472 2012-03-08 14:30:48 <sipa> they all need to be the same version
 473 2012-03-08 14:31:07 copumpkin has joined
 474 2012-03-08 14:31:24 <sipa> so you need 4.8, 4.8++ and 4.8++-dev, or 5.1 5.1++ and 5.1++-dev
 475 2012-03-08 14:31:43 <rebroad> there's more than one 4.8 it seems
 476 2012-03-08 14:33:16 <rebroad> sipa, do you use apt-get?
 477 2012-03-08 14:34:10 <sipa> yes
 478 2012-03-08 14:35:44 <rebroad> for me to ubinstall the libdb4.8 currently installed would require uninstalling most of the OS.. e.g. compiz, wine, xhat, python, etc
 479 2012-03-08 14:35:57 <sipa> no need to uninstall it
 480 2012-03-08 14:36:13 <sipa> 4.8 and 5.1 can live side by side
 481 2012-03-08 14:36:23 <rebroad> I don't want to install 5.1
 482 2012-03-08 14:36:32 <rebroad> I just want to get libdb4.8++-dev working
 483 2012-03-08 14:36:39 <rebroad> but I need libdb4.8-dev for that
 484 2012-03-08 14:36:45 <sipa> yes
 485 2012-03-08 14:36:47 <rebroad> and it won't let me install that with the current libdb4.8
 486 2012-03-08 14:37:13 <sipa> really, just use what your OS provides (5.1); that is far.simpler
 487 2012-03-08 14:38:04 <rebroad> libdb4.8-dev is 4.8.30-9ubuntu1 but the only libdb4.8++-dev I've found is 5ubuntu2
 488 2012-03-08 14:38:24 <sipa> dependency hell
 489 2012-03-08 14:38:41 <sipa> don't try to mix different builds
 490 2012-03-08 14:38:54 <sipa> if you want 4.8, build it entirely from source
 491 2012-03-08 14:39:43 <rebroad> libdb5.1++-dev being installed (it removes 4.8-dev in the process)
 492 2012-03-08 14:39:49 <rebroad> so me using 5.1 isn't going to cause problems later when I'm putting things back into git..?
 493 2012-03-08 14:39:58 <rebroad> (not found that article yet. not looked)
 494 2012-03-08 14:40:49 <rebroad> is this the link to the forum? http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development
 495 2012-03-08 14:41:38 libcoin has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 496 2012-03-08 14:41:49 <sipa> the forum is bitcoinforum.org
 497 2012-03-08 14:42:28 <rebroad> ah, ok. thanks
 498 2012-03-08 14:42:35 <sipa> and no, using 5.1 is no problem; i use it myself
 499 2012-03-08 14:42:42 <[eval]> bitcointalk.org?
 500 2012-03-08 14:42:49 <sipa> bah right
 501 2012-03-08 14:42:59 * sipa needs coffee
 502 2012-03-08 14:43:00 <[eval]> :)
 503 2012-03-08 14:43:04 gavinandresen has joined
 504 2012-03-08 14:43:06 <rebroad> ah, not bitcoinforum..?
 505 2012-03-08 14:43:11 * [eval] needs use cases for tx replacement! :)
 506 2012-03-08 14:43:15 <rebroad> coffee sounds good.. one for me too please :)
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 508 2012-03-08 14:43:30 <[eval]> hola gavinandresen
 509 2012-03-08 14:43:36 <gavinandresen> good morning
 510 2012-03-08 14:44:05 <sipa> gavinandresen: BIP30 confirmed by the 5 largest pools now, 70% in total... still no one that has actually upgraded thoigh
 511 2012-03-08 14:44:17 <sipa> though
 512 2012-03-08 14:44:52 <rebroad> I want to run something by the developers.. I hope this is an ok place to do it... it's about the idea of generating rewards per block mined based on coin days destroyed rather than being fixed...  in order to reduce chances of deflation (and inflation too).. would this be something bitcoin might consider doing, or better to create a new coin for it? (I think a new coin is a better idea, but wanted to ask what you thought).
 513 2012-03-08 14:45:17 <gavinandresen> rebroad: new coin
 514 2012-03-08 14:45:24 <rebroad> ah, ok... thanks
 515 2012-03-08 14:45:33 <sipa> yes, that would be a very substabtial changr
 516 2012-03-08 14:45:41 <gavinandresen> rebroad: changing those rules would be like Dwolla changing the chargeback rules on TradeHill....
 517 2012-03-08 14:45:44 <rebroad> some people in #bitcoin last night were suggesting changing bitcoin to that, but I felt new coin was better
 518 2012-03-08 14:46:24 <sipa> in particular, changing the subsidy is something that would never be agreed upon by everyone in the community
 519 2012-03-08 14:46:35 <rebroad> funny situation the Dwolla and tradehill.. looking at MagicalTux's comments, I'm getting hints of him saying "well, I had no problem with them!"
 520 2012-03-08 14:47:14 T_X has joined
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 523 2012-03-08 14:47:22 <rebroad> and somehow inferring he's implying fault with tradehill, which I wonder if it weakens their case
 524 2012-03-08 14:47:40 <rebroad> anyway.. OT...
 525 2012-03-08 14:48:00 <rebroad> sipa, I agree.
 526 2012-03-08 14:48:13 <rebroad> sipa. would cause a fork, somethnig like that.. not helpful to anyone
 527 2012-03-08 14:48:25 <rebroad> *could
 528 2012-03-08 14:50:22 <rebroad> where can I read about BIP30 please? the forums?
 529 2012-03-08 14:50:47 <gavinandresen> rebroad: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0030
 530 2012-03-08 14:51:09 Turingi has joined
 531 2012-03-08 14:51:31 <rebroad> if I create a new coin with that idea.. can I do it in such a way that it can be merge mined (like namecoin)?
 532 2012-03-08 14:51:46 gp5st has joined
 533 2012-03-08 14:52:09 <phantomcircuit> rebroad, i always assumed their no chargeback advertising was incorrect however it was clearly what they were advertising
 534 2012-03-08 14:53:03 <rebroad> hi phantomcircuit. yeah.. certainly false advertising IMHO
 535 2012-03-08 14:53:59 <rebroad> I was a little baffled by how tradehill were claiming it was Dwolla's fault they lost the domain bitcoin.com
 536 2012-03-08 14:54:16 <BlueMatt> who holds it now then?
 537 2012-03-08 14:54:38 <phantomcircuit> the original owner
 538 2012-03-08 14:54:47 <sipa> gavinandresen: are you aware that the rc2 installer on windowws doesn't seem to overwrite previous versions?
 539 2012-03-08 14:54:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: nope, news to me.
 540 2012-03-08 14:55:18 <gavinandresen> installer hasn't changed in ages, I wonder what's up.
 541 2012-03-08 14:55:19 <BlueMatt> sipa: how so?
 542 2012-03-08 14:55:26 <phantomcircuit> rebroad, the claim isn't actually outlandish, if they can show that they went out of business as a direct result of misrepresentations by dwolla, then they can show damages directly caused by going out of business
 543 2012-03-08 14:55:59 <phantomcircuit> which could lead to damages based on their potential value instead of their present market value
 544 2012-03-08 14:56:00 <sipa> gmaxwell, BlueMatt: gmaxwell just told me; https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18313.msg789431#msg789431
 545 2012-03-08 14:56:12 <rebroad> phantomcircuit, don't they have some duty to minimise their loses though?
 546 2012-03-08 14:56:16 <luke-jr> rebroad: the guy who sold them bitcoin.com did so in exchange for $1mil equity in the company, and on the condition they operated an exchange. they were contractually obliged to return the domain when they shutdown the exchange.
 547 2012-03-08 14:56:54 <rebroad> luke-jr, ah, i see.
 548 2012-03-08 14:57:18 <BlueMatt> hmm, I dont see why it wouldnt...
 549 2012-03-08 14:57:19 <phantomcircuit> yeah as luke-jr said
 550 2012-03-08 14:58:09 <sipa> also, a fake BIP16 transaction was mined that cut off rc1 users with old switchover date
 551 2012-03-08 14:58:20 <phantomcircuit> basically if they can get a finding that dwolla did commit fraud by reversing the transfers there is a very real potential for very large damages
 552 2012-03-08 14:58:48 <rebroad> I noticed rc1 stopped working about 24 to 30 hours ago
 553 2012-03-08 14:58:56 <rebroad> rather than on 1st March
 554 2012-03-08 14:59:04 <luke-jr> people only used Dwolla *because* of the no chargebacks thing
 555 2012-03-08 14:59:21 <MrTiggr> AND that can be proven luke-jr
 556 2012-03-08 14:59:31 cande has joined
 557 2012-03-08 14:59:37 <luke-jr> MrTiggr: can it?
 558 2012-03-08 14:59:42 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 559 2012-03-08 14:59:57 <rebroad> fake BIP16 was mined? could that have led to any fraud?
 560 2012-03-08 15:00:00 <luke-jr> MrTiggr: how many people saved a copy of their old ToS and such?
 561 2012-03-08 15:00:00 <MrTiggr> have already forwarded wbarchive and other evidence to jared
 562 2012-03-08 15:00:06 <MrTiggr> that shows that dwolla
 563 2012-03-08 15:00:11 <MrTiggr> cahnged their TOS
 564 2012-03-08 15:00:21 da2ce7 has joined
 565 2012-03-08 15:00:21 <MrTiggr> POST TH signup
 566 2012-03-08 15:00:31 <luke-jr> rebroad: no, only because BIP 16 was *inactive* and to use it someone had to hack their client to bypass that
 567 2012-03-08 15:00:37 <MrTiggr> enuf people did to make it legal bro
 568 2012-03-08 15:00:40 <MrTiggr> GOOOO team BTC
 569 2012-03-08 15:01:12 <rebroad> luke-jr, what about people using rc1 - could they have potentially lost BTC?
 570 2012-03-08 15:01:30 <luke-jr> rebroad: rc1 only enforced it, it didn't allow using it.
 571 2012-03-08 15:01:38 <rebroad> ah, i see
 572 2012-03-08 15:01:49 <rebroad> so in effect, rc1 was more secure?
 573 2012-03-08 15:01:52 <luke-jr> no
 574 2012-03-08 15:01:56 <rebroad> oh.. :-s
 575 2012-03-08 15:02:12 * rebroad still needs coffee
 576 2012-03-08 15:02:20 <sipa> rc1 used stricter rules than old bitcoin versions
 577 2012-03-08 15:02:33 <sipa> rc2 does so too, but only after april first (afaik)
 578 2012-03-08 15:03:02 <sipa> in the hope that enough mining power has upgraded by then to make such fake BIP16 transaction unviable
 579 2012-03-08 15:03:40 <luke-jr> hopefully not, though.
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 585 2012-03-08 15:12:03 <rebroad> does anyone think that there is a need for a coin that doesn't have "deflation built in by design"?
 586 2012-03-08 15:12:21 <rebroad> one that would be less like gold, and more like currency
 587 2012-03-08 15:12:49 <rebroad> and could the coin days destroyed metric be used to achieve that?
 588 2012-03-08 15:13:23 <sipa> maybe
 589 2012-03-08 15:13:45 <gavinandresen> rebroad: how would you stop miners from gaming the coin-days-destroyed measurement to increase their reward?
 590 2012-03-08 15:14:01 <sipa> i don't think anyone will know how viable that is, unless it was tried; and even if it is, such an attempt may fail for other reason (such as existing bitcoin's network effect)
 591 2012-03-08 15:14:15 <rebroad> gavinandresen, how would they game it any more than they can game anything in bitcoin?
 592 2012-03-08 15:14:45 <gavinandresen> They create the coins, so they can spend them in blocks they create.  THey have an incentive to hold on to some percentage and continuously respend them to increase the block reward.
 593 2012-03-08 15:15:05 <gavinandresen> ... more block reward for them means more coins they can destroy, increasing their reward....
 594 2012-03-08 15:15:12 <gavinandresen> ... and you've got a vicious cycle
 595 2012-03-08 15:15:41 <rebroad> gavinandresen, I'm not sure I understand.. perhaps you are making a false assumption?
 596 2012-03-08 15:16:07 <rebroad> gavinandresen, can you identify any assumptions you are making with that hypothesis please?
 597 2012-03-08 15:16:12 <gavinandresen> perhaps.  Have you written up a concrete proposal or are you brainstorming?
 598 2012-03-08 15:16:20 <_W_> I personally think the economic effects of how much coin is minted, and how, will be minimal. It affects the motivations for miners, but not really the economy of whether you will hold or invest
 599 2012-03-08 15:16:22 <rebroad> more the latter
 600 2012-03-08 15:16:52 <rebroad> I was propsing the rewards was reassessed about as often as the difficulty
 601 2012-03-08 15:16:58 <gavinandresen> Ok.  I assume that the proposal is to try to measure economic activity by looking at coin days destroyed.  And adjust the block reward based on that.
 602 2012-03-08 15:17:03 <rebroad> so it changes perhaps as often as difficulty...
 603 2012-03-08 15:17:24 <rebroad> and there's a fixed algoritm used to determine the reward each time it's recalculated
 604 2012-03-08 15:17:31 <rebroad> so everyone would verify it wasn't being tampered with
 605 2012-03-08 15:17:41 <rebroad> the miners would be able to game only with >50%
 606 2012-03-08 15:17:44 <rebroad> same as bitcoin
 607 2012-03-08 15:17:51 <gavinandresen> I also assume more coin days destroyed would mean more coins created, to try to match economic activity.
 608 2012-03-08 15:18:23 <rebroad> gavinandresen, maybe... or maybe the opposite? I've not quite worked it out in my head yet
 609 2012-03-08 15:18:43 <_W_> rebroad, if you change how much value miners get based on <measure that is manipulateable by miners> then that measure will be manipulated by miners to maximise their profit
 610 2012-03-08 15:18:52 <gavinandresen> Fewer coins created with more economic activity would mean even more deflation that bitcoin will eventually have.
 611 2012-03-08 15:19:09 <gavinandresen> _W_ : exactly.  If they can, they will.
 612 2012-03-08 15:19:25 <rebroad> the main aim is to prevent hoarding..
 613 2012-03-08 15:19:33 <rebroad> and coins lying dormant in addresses
 614 2012-03-08 15:19:42 <rebroad> so the more coins are lost, the more are minted/mined
 615 2012-03-08 15:19:44 <gavinandresen> You'll just replace hoarding with fake send-to-self spending
 616 2012-03-08 15:20:00 <_W_> rebroad, the arguments that hoarding will be harmful are pretty naive
 617 2012-03-08 15:20:02 <rebroad> well, maybe it's more to cater for lost coins
 618 2012-03-08 15:20:13 <rebroad> rather than anything human-driven
 619 2012-03-08 15:20:30 <rebroad> i don't think hoarding is harmful per se
 620 2012-03-08 15:20:38 <rebroad> i think bitcoin is akin to gold due to that
 621 2012-03-08 15:20:42 <rebroad> and nothing wrong with gold either
 622 2012-03-08 15:21:02 <rebroad> but with gold, and pre-1992 copper coins, they stop being circulated
 623 2012-03-08 15:21:15 <rebroad> because people hold onto them due to their increase in price
 624 2012-03-08 15:21:30 <_W_> the only way to profit off of hoarding is to sell
 625 2012-03-08 15:21:39 <rebroad> nothing wrong with that.. just what happens...  but it makes it less like "money" then
 626 2012-03-08 15:21:43 <Diablo-D3> so
 627 2012-03-08 15:21:47 <Diablo-D3> 12.2 fglrx is finally out
 628 2012-03-08 15:22:09 <rebroad> I'm not much up on economics, I'll admit
 629 2012-03-08 15:22:15 <sipa> can someone sticky my post about BIP30 on the forum?
 630 2012-03-08 15:22:24 <rebroad> but the idea was something more akin to money than bitcoin.. if that's possible
 631 2012-03-08 15:22:26 <Diablo-D3> let me say this a little louder
 632 2012-03-08 15:22:33 <Diablo-D3> FGLRX 12.2 IS OUT
 633 2012-03-08 15:22:54 <gavinandresen> sipa: link?
 634 2012-03-08 15:23:00 <Diablo-D3> =/
 635 2012-03-08 15:23:21 <sipa> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67738.0
 636 2012-03-08 15:23:47 <gavinandresen> sipa: stickied
 637 2012-03-08 15:23:54 <sipa> thanks
 638 2012-03-08 15:24:06 <rebroad> _W_... I see what you're saying... but what does "sell" mean?
 639 2012-03-08 15:24:53 <rebroad> i think it means to convert to money
 640 2012-03-08 15:25:11 <rebroad> which suggests the thing being sold is not money
 641 2012-03-08 15:25:11 chrisb__ has joined
 642 2012-03-08 15:26:01 <rebroad> so I'm suggesting a coin which is money, but not centralised
 643 2012-03-08 15:26:32 <rebroad> bitcoin is the closest we have to that IMHO, but I think something closer is possible
 644 2012-03-08 15:26:43 <sipa> you are far from the first person to think so
 645 2012-03-08 15:26:55 <rebroad> I'm sure I am :)
 646 2012-03-08 15:26:55 <gavinandresen> rebroad: I like Scott Sumner's nominal gdp targeting idea:  http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/255093/money-rules-scott-sumner  ... but don't know how to translate that into a bitcoin-like system.  I think you'd need a distributed futures exchange market....
 647 2012-03-08 15:27:40 <rebroad> (sipa: I mean I agree)
 648 2012-03-08 15:28:05 * rebroad ok, coffee!
 649 2012-03-08 15:28:58 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 650 2012-03-08 15:30:00 <_W_> rebroad, you should probably not be overly concerned about terms like "money" "currency" and "commodity". Bitcoin is something new, a bit special, not really fitting into the niches that already exist. Call it a cryptocurrency if anything. If it really takes off, I expect economists will study it intently
 651 2012-03-08 15:30:56 <[eval]> some economists are already studying it intently and debating these exact terms :P
 652 2012-03-08 15:32:18 Joric has quit ()
 653 2012-03-08 15:37:10 <helo> i'd like to know what conclusions and opinions they have about it
 654 2012-03-08 15:37:25 <rebroad> _W_, I think given the limited supply of bitcoin, it's closer to something like gold than money...
 655 2012-03-08 15:37:34 <helo> the set of economists who understand enough CS to think something like bitcoin is viable is probably pretty small
 656 2012-03-08 15:37:41 <rebroad> _W_, I just think it would be nice to have a money-replacement as well as a gold-replacement
 657 2012-03-08 15:38:09 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
 658 2012-03-08 15:38:23 <rebroad> helo, CS?
 659 2012-03-08 15:38:28 <helo> computer science
 660 2012-03-08 15:38:31 <rebroad> ah
 661 2012-03-08 15:38:44 <rebroad> helo, yes, i think you're right there
 662 2012-03-08 15:39:17 <helo> a lot of people immediately dismiss bitcoin because they don't see how a distributed network could be trusted to handle money of arbitrarily high value
 663 2012-03-08 15:39:24 <_W_> rebroad, bitcoin is wildly different from gold though. You can't send gold over the wires
 664 2012-03-08 15:39:49 <rebroad> i have another topic I'd like to raise here... and that is.. have the developers thought much about whether to make bitcoin (or any other coin) cope with being made illegal? e.g. ISPs being made to block it, etc.
 665 2012-03-08 15:40:10 <rebroad> _W_, I wasn't suggesting it was identical to gold
 666 2012-03-08 15:40:51 <rebroad> _W_,  that was my strawman reply to your strawman argument :)
 667 2012-03-08 15:40:53 <_W_> gavinandresen, I like that article (and I totally agree with his point further down in the comments about targetting aggregate wages)
 668 2012-03-08 15:40:59 <helo> for a money replacement, like you said the reward would be based off of bitcoin days destroyed? so the more it is being used, the lower the reward?
 669 2012-03-08 15:41:27 <helo> so as the economy slows down, the reward increases to create more money?
 670 2012-03-08 15:41:33 <rebroad> helo, erm... why do you assume that?
 671 2012-03-08 15:41:44 <rebroad> helo, no. I think the less it's used the more is created.
 672 2012-03-08 15:41:45 <_W_> rebroad, well, it doesn't much matter whether it is closes to gold (in its supply, I assume you mean) or some currency, since you can't draw many useful analogies due to the differences
 673 2012-03-08 15:42:16 <helo> rebroad: i think that's the contrapositive of what i said
 674 2012-03-08 15:42:20 <rebroad> _W_, you can draw some...  "many" is subjective
 675 2012-03-08 15:42:29 <rebroad> helo, yes
 676 2012-03-08 15:43:06 <helo> more use -> lower reward => less use -> more reward
 677 2012-03-08 15:43:24 <rebroad> I suspect it'll be difficult to calibrate at this stage with bitcoin being so young
 678 2012-03-08 15:43:30 dvide has joined
 679 2012-03-08 15:43:34 <rebroad> helo yes
 680 2012-03-08 15:44:01 <rebroad> helo, which do you think is the better of those two?
 681 2012-03-08 15:44:25 <_W_> rebroad, I'd like to see examples of any conclusions you can draw due to any similarity between bitcoins and gold.
 682 2012-03-08 15:44:27 <rebroad> helo, no...
 683 2012-03-08 15:44:34 <rebroad> helo. oh.. I see what you are saying now
 684 2012-03-08 15:44:43 <rebroad> helo.. it's not that simple i think
 685 2012-03-08 15:45:06 <rebroad> the aim is to keep it being used, so of course, that needs to be "rewarded"
 686 2012-03-08 15:45:28 <_W_> rebroad, note that "use" of bitcoin can include one guy sending himself coins
 687 2012-03-08 15:45:40 <rebroad> or rather, not use is punished
 688 2012-03-08 15:45:41 <helo> with fiat, that's essentially what happens though, right? if people stop spending money, more money made available to banks to get people to start spending again
 689 2012-03-08 15:45:58 <rebroad> the less it's used the more is created, to devalue it
 690 2012-03-08 15:46:06 <rebroad> so reward can mean two things
 691 2012-03-08 15:46:15 <rebroad> the amount rewarded per block
 692 2012-03-08 15:46:20 <rebroad> but that is also the punishment
 693 2012-03-08 15:46:29 <rebroad> to the people hoarding
 694 2012-03-08 15:46:33 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 695 2012-03-08 15:46:41 <rebroad> so reward = punishment and punishment = reward
 696 2012-03-08 15:46:57 <rebroad> depending on whether you are a miner or a keeper
 697 2012-03-08 15:47:27 <rebroad> miners can increase their reward by stopping people using the coin
 698 2012-03-08 15:47:32 <helo> hmm... miners would be incentivised to not include transactions, which would cause their mining reward to go up
 699 2012-03-08 15:47:35 <rebroad> but they can't do that..
 700 2012-03-08 15:47:37 <rebroad> can they?
 701 2012-03-08 15:47:45 <_W_> sure they can
 702 2012-03-08 15:47:47 <helo> so fees would be very important
 703 2012-03-08 15:48:11 <rebroad> well, this reminds me of the red balloon article..
 704 2012-03-08 15:48:19 <helo> particularly for very old coin, which is the opposite of the requirements for anti-spam/dos measures
 705 2012-03-08 15:49:21 <rebroad> helo, what is the current incentive for miners to include txs? fees, yes..
 706 2012-03-08 15:49:40 <rebroad> so, wouldn't it be the same with this proposed coin?
 707 2012-03-08 15:50:01 <helo> fees are so small that they currently don't really provide much incentive
 708 2012-03-08 15:50:11 <helo> there are some miners that don't include any transactions
 709 2012-03-08 15:50:26 <rebroad> helo.. really? they can mine empty blocks?
 710 2012-03-08 15:50:28 <helo> miners just mine for the block reward
 711 2012-03-08 15:50:34 <helo> rebroad: yep, happens quite a bit
 712 2012-03-08 15:50:52 <helo> see the blocks with 1 transaction: http://blockchain.info/
 713 2012-03-08 15:51:04 att has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 714 2012-03-08 15:51:13 <rebroad> helo... I did wonder that...  hmmm... what is to gain for them doing that?
 715 2012-03-08 15:51:35 libcoin has joined
 716 2012-03-08 15:51:35 <_W_> the block reward (50 btc currently)
 717 2012-03-08 15:51:49 <rebroad> i mean. what is to gain by NOT including transactions
 718 2012-03-08 15:51:55 <_W_> I mean the transactions average out to what, 3 btc per block?
 719 2012-03-08 15:52:33 <rebroad> i know the answer.. they want to drive up fees..
 720 2012-03-08 15:52:37 <rebroad> which is in their interest
 721 2012-03-08 15:52:40 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 722 2012-03-08 15:52:41 <gmaxwell> ...
 723 2012-03-08 15:52:44 <rebroad> they're saying.. "we aint working for free"
 724 2012-03-08 15:52:46 <helo> also they don't have to be actively participating in transaction validation
 725 2012-03-08 15:52:47 <luke-jr> rebroad: care to test that theory?
 726 2012-03-08 15:52:52 <gmaxwell> No. That behavior has no such result.
 727 2012-03-08 15:52:56 <_W_> rebroad, well it probably simplifies miner code some. You just need to get the last block, and don't have to worry about being in the transaction network
 728 2012-03-08 15:53:02 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: doesn't mean that isn't their intent
 729 2012-03-08 15:53:20 <rebroad> fair point luke-jr
 730 2012-03-08 15:53:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: if it is, they're not especially competent.
 731 2012-03-08 15:53:34 <luke-jr> rebroad: that theory can be tested: create a transaction with a 10 BTC fee.
 732 2012-03-08 15:53:45 <rebroad> well, they're miners, not scientists ;)
 733 2012-03-08 15:53:54 <helo> and do it every block until that miners mines one and doesn't grab the fee
 734 2012-03-08 15:53:55 <luke-jr> also, you need to ensure the other miners don't accept it first
 735 2012-03-08 15:54:07 <luke-jr> yeah
 736 2012-03-08 15:54:11 <luke-jr> expensive, but testable
 737 2012-03-08 15:54:15 <helo> is that IP functioning as a full node?
 738 2012-03-08 15:54:19 <gmaxwell> Nope.
 739 2012-03-08 15:54:29 <gmaxwell> Or rather, it's not reachable.
 740 2012-03-08 15:54:36 <helo> so that's the dumb part, if what they want are fees :)
 741 2012-03-08 15:54:43 * luke-jr wonders if Eligius has a connection to it
 742 2012-03-08 15:54:56 <rebroad> what are the incentives of an intelligent miner to include very few txs?
 743 2012-03-08 15:55:12 <luke-jr> no connection to that IP on Eligius
 744 2012-03-08 15:55:35 <luke-jr> rebroad: minimize bandwidth use
 745 2012-03-08 15:55:35 <rebroad> let's assume they're a genius, for a moment..
 746 2012-03-08 15:56:02 <luke-jr> if they pay per byte, they might only connect to key nodes when they announce blocks
 747 2012-03-08 15:56:18 <luke-jr> and just listen for another cheap-bandwidth node to send them UDP prevblock changes
 748 2012-03-08 15:56:48 <rebroad> perhaps a reward for "gossiping" might be a useful addition for this money-like coin
 749 2012-03-08 15:57:24 <rebroad> but how one would measure that.... i don't know
 750 2012-03-08 15:57:28 <helo> basing the reward on days destroyed is a pretty interesting idea... it has the same kind of self-balancing that a lot of bitcoin has. deciding on the best magnitude of reaction might be impossible though
 751 2012-03-08 15:58:17 <rebroad> helo... yeah, and what percentage days destroyed is an ideal percentage?
 752 2012-03-08 15:58:35 <rebroad> or considered good enough
 753 2012-03-08 15:58:48 <rebroad> bitcoin's around 33%, right?
 754 2012-03-08 15:59:00 <rebroad> maybe the rewards become zero at 33%..
 755 2012-03-08 15:59:03 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 756 2012-03-08 15:59:11 <helo> it would be akin to being able to replace The Fed with a computer program and have the same kind of stability
 757 2012-03-08 15:59:13 <rebroad> higher than 33% it stays zero.. and below 33% it starts to increase
 758 2012-03-08 15:59:27 <rebroad> up to 50BTC max
 759 2012-03-08 15:59:37 <rebroad> keep it as similar to bitcoin as possible
 760 2012-03-08 16:00:00 <sipa> luke-jr: any serious bug reports about 0.5.3rc yet?
 761 2012-03-08 16:00:10 <helo> it would be cool to try to correlate the fed's interest rate changes with a metric that reflects "dollar days destroyed"
 762 2012-03-08 16:00:13 <luke-jr> sipa: just that wallet corrupt one
 763 2012-03-08 16:00:18 diki has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 764 2012-03-08 16:00:24 <rebroad> but.. should it be linear (e.g. 50BTC for 0% and 0BTC for 33%), or logarithmic...
 765 2012-03-08 16:00:29 <sipa> i think it would be wise to have a BIP30 updated release soon
 766 2012-03-08 16:00:46 <luke-jr> sipa: I'm afraid the guy probably has a corrupt privkey
 767 2012-03-08 16:00:53 <helo> uh oh, actual dev discussion... maybe we should go to #bitcoin
 768 2012-03-08 16:00:53 <luke-jr> is there any way to fix that?
 769 2012-03-08 16:01:05 <luke-jr> helo: your topic is also dev IMO
 770 2012-03-08 16:01:15 <helo> fair enough :)
 771 2012-03-08 16:01:47 <luke-jr> (also fwiw, I might even merged-mine it positively if it makes sensible changes)
 772 2012-03-08 16:01:48 <rebroad> helo, I like the idea of correlating the FED's interest rate changes
 773 2012-03-08 16:02:07 <luke-jr> (as in, offer it to Eligius miners)
 774 2012-03-08 16:02:14 <rebroad> luke-jr, yes, i'd like to see it merge mined.. what would be the reasons for not merge mining?
 775 2012-03-08 16:02:34 <luke-jr> rebroad: hostile forces could use it if you don't have positive ones over 51%
 776 2012-03-08 16:02:56 <luke-jr> rebroad: see what I did with CoiledCoin
 777 2012-03-08 16:02:56 <rebroad> luke-jr, yes.. but are there any advantages in NOT merge mining it?
 778 2012-03-08 16:03:13 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 779 2012-03-08 16:03:14 <rebroad> what is coiled coin?
 780 2012-03-08 16:03:21 <luke-jr> rebroad: merged mining makes such attacks free; if it doesn't merged-mine, then the attacks can be costly
 781 2012-03-08 16:03:37 <luke-jr> CoiledCoin was basically a copy-and-paste of Bitcoin 0.6 a while back
 782 2012-03-08 16:03:41 <rebroad> luke-jr, ok, so I will assume you are aware of no advantages of not merge mining./.
 783 2012-03-08 16:03:51 <luke-jr> rebroad: the advantage is making it costly to attack
 784 2012-03-08 16:04:15 <rebroad> luke-jr, are there any disadvantages with merge mining?
 785 2012-03-08 16:04:25 <luke-jr> rebroad: if Eligius offers merged mining (positively), then you should probably be clear so long as this 88.190.236.238 guy leaves you alone
 786 2012-03-08 16:04:36 <luke-jr> rebroad: …
 787 2012-03-08 16:04:42 <luke-jr> rebroad: I think I've answered that multiple times now -.-
 788 2012-03-08 16:04:59 <helo> the initial distribution of coins via block rewards would probably need to be almost the same as bitcoin for a while, just to get coins out
 789 2012-03-08 16:05:02 <rebroad> luke-jr, sorry. I thought you were talking about the advantages of merge mining..
 790 2012-03-08 16:05:04 <rebroad> I'll re-read
 791 2012-03-08 16:05:10 <sipa> luke-jr: it could be fixed automatically, actually
 792 2012-03-08 16:05:15 <luke-jr> sipa: ?
 793 2012-03-08 16:05:19 <Graet> lol rebroad merged mining means luke-jr will shut you down if he doesnt like you...
 794 2012-03-08 16:05:33 <sipa> luke-jr: but i'd rather not, as it's a sign the wallet was corrupted/tampered with/...
 795 2012-03-08 16:05:38 <sipa> luke-jr: fixing the corrupt private key
 796 2012-03-08 16:05:46 <luke-jr> sipa: corrupted seems most likely.
 797 2012-03-08 16:05:54 <luke-jr> why wouldn't you want to fix that? :P
 798 2012-03-08 16:06:16 <luke-jr> with as often as we see people with corrupt blockchains, it's only inevitable that it hits the wallet randomly
 799 2012-03-08 16:06:35 diki has joined
 800 2012-03-08 16:06:37 <helo> and then for long-term maintenance mode it would switch to rewarding based on bitcoin days destroyed
 801 2012-03-08 16:06:47 <sipa> well, because it will obviously not be able to guarantee that the recovered key is the same one as the old one
 802 2012-03-08 16:07:31 <rebroad> helo, well, the coins destroyed would start off as a small percentage, as it did with bitcoin
 803 2012-03-08 16:07:46 <rebroad> so no need to hardcode anything.. well, until the first calculation, that is
 804 2012-03-08 16:07:58 <luke-jr> sipa: it can guarantee that it signs correctly <.<
 805 2012-03-08 16:08:14 <luke-jr> sipa: assuming it's the privkey that got corrupted…
 806 2012-03-08 16:08:43 <sipa> luke-jr: yes, that can be guaranteed
 807 2012-03-08 16:08:50 <luke-jr> sipa: maybe just flag it (to avoid trying to use it), and display a warning with "X BTC is lost due to corruption."
 808 2012-03-08 16:09:05 <luke-jr> then at least someone can decide whether or not to hire an expert to recover it
 809 2012-03-08 16:10:08 <luke-jr> (I have no idea how simple/complex automated recovery would be)
 810 2012-03-08 16:11:21 <rebroad> the thing about merged mining is that if it's merged wouldn't people mine it even if the rewards were zero?
 811 2012-03-08 16:12:35 <luke-jr> no
 812 2012-03-08 16:13:07 <sipa> it makes the cost for mining it marginally zero
 813 2012-03-08 16:13:21 <sipa> but it stil takes work to implement it, so there probably needs to be some reward
 814 2012-03-08 16:13:25 <rebroad> i mean, if their mining was set up to include it... it would be extra effort to stop mining these coins than to just leave it as is.. no?
 815 2012-03-08 16:13:44 <rebroad> i mean, if it started with rewards that eventually stoped
 816 2012-03-08 16:13:48 <rebroad> *stopped
 817 2012-03-08 16:14:07 <rebroad> I don't really know enough about merged mining currently...
 818 2012-03-08 16:14:19 <sipa> maybe read a bit about it first
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 820 2012-03-08 16:14:44 <rebroad> I'd like to explore the disadvantages of merge mining..  I didn't really notice which of luke-jr's arguments were against merge mining
 821 2012-03-08 16:15:14 <helo> maybe when the average of the fees for the last N blocks are higher than the block reward, the reward switches to being based on days destroyed
 822 2012-03-08 16:15:57 <rebroad> helo, I don't see why there needs to be any switch at all
 823 2012-03-08 16:16:03 <phantomcircuit> rebroad, have you looked into the computational complexity of calculating bitcoin-days-destroyed ?
 824 2012-03-08 16:16:11 <luke-jr> rebroad: as I mentioned, if you make significant changes to make your chain reasonably viable, I'd be willing to include it on Eligius to mitigate the risks of merged mining :p
 825 2012-03-08 16:16:16 <rebroad> phantomcircuit, that is a very good question
 826 2012-03-08 16:16:35 <phantomcircuit> i suspect it is O(n) with the number of transactions which have not been spent
 827 2012-03-08 16:16:40 <helo> yeah... :/
 828 2012-03-08 16:16:56 <rebroad> phantomcircuit, do you know the answer?
 829 2012-03-08 16:18:04 <rebroad> 0(n)?
 830 2012-03-08 16:18:32 <luke-jr> …
 831 2012-03-08 16:18:39 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 832 2012-03-08 16:18:45 <copumpkin> 0 or O? :)
 833 2012-03-08 16:19:00 <jrmithdobbs> 0(n) would be pretty phenomenal
 834 2012-03-08 16:19:05 <copumpkin> O(0)
 835 2012-03-08 16:19:25 <rebroad> 0 or O?
 836 2012-03-08 16:19:30 <copumpkin> 0(O)
 837 2012-03-08 16:19:30 <jrmithdobbs> O
 838 2012-03-08 16:19:34 <copumpkin> oh
 839 2012-03-08 16:19:36 <rebroad> what is O?
 840 2012-03-08 16:19:40 <rebroad> and what is n?
 841 2012-03-08 16:19:50 <jrmithdobbs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation
 842 2012-03-08 16:19:53 <luke-jr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation
 843 2012-03-08 16:19:54 <helo> rebroad: the complexity probably is going to be proportional to the number of unspent transactions
 844 2012-03-08 16:20:05 agricocb has joined
 845 2012-03-08 16:20:35 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: you mean calculating the bitcoin days destroyed of a given block/transaction/..., or the total bitcoin days left?
 846 2012-03-08 16:20:37 <rebroad> my gut feeling is that it's not going to involve a huge amount of math, if done iteratively... but I could be wrong
 847 2012-03-08 16:20:57 <luke-jr> rebroad: are you actually a software developer, btw?
 848 2012-03-08 16:20:59 <rebroad> just means everyone checking each mined block for the new number
 849 2012-03-08 16:21:13 <rebroad> luke-jr, yes.. but I've been sys admining and not coding for a bit too long
 850 2012-03-08 16:21:16 <luke-jr> k
 851 2012-03-08 16:21:29 <luke-jr> just asking cuz some people have occasionally come around expecting others to code for them…
 852 2012-03-08 16:21:53 <rebroad> I only expect things from people if they make a promise to do that thing
 853 2012-03-08 16:22:06 <sipa> nice
 854 2012-03-08 16:23:04 <luke-jr> one guy had this "great idea", expected others to implement it for him and pay him a 1% tax on blocks mined for the idea…
 855 2012-03-08 16:23:25 <jrmithdobbs> haha what
 856 2012-03-08 16:23:45 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 857 2012-03-08 16:24:01 <k9quaint> luke-jr: write some code for me so I can go get some hookers and beer
 858 2012-03-08 16:24:16 <rebroad> luke-jr, well, I've always been an ideas person and not a very good doer...
 859 2012-03-08 16:24:18 <k9quaint> i'll give you a 1% beer tax
 860 2012-03-08 16:24:35 <rebroad> I probably shouldn't admit that..
 861 2012-03-08 16:24:57 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: can you answe?
 862 2012-03-08 16:25:16 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i don't understand the question
 863 2012-03-08 16:25:21 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: maybe you meant phantomcircuit ?
 864 2012-03-08 16:25:30 <sipa> oh yes, i do!
 865 2012-03-08 16:25:37 <luke-jr> lol
 866 2012-03-08 16:25:44 <sipa> phantomcircuit:  you mean calculating the bitcoin days destroyed of a given block/transaction/..., or the total bitcoin days left?
 867 2012-03-08 16:26:08 <rebroad> well, abe blockexplorer does it built in..
 868 2012-03-08 16:27:13 <helo> wrong guess: complexity of bitcoin days destroyed of a block is O(nlogm) for a block spending n transactions, with m total unspent transactions
 869 2012-03-08 16:28:35 <rebroad> ok, so the nlogm sounds pretty easy..
 870 2012-03-08 16:28:45 <rebroad> just reading up on big O notation to understand that bit!
 871 2012-03-08 16:29:03 <rebroad> or.. is the nlogm easy... erm..
 872 2012-03-08 16:29:20 <sipa> helo: that's correct i think
 873 2012-03-08 16:29:20 <rebroad> how easy is it to reassess m per block created?
 874 2012-03-08 16:29:30 <helo> since n is relatively small, and m grows linearly, it shouldn't be too hard
 875 2012-03-08 16:29:56 <rebroad> can m go up or down per block?
 876 2012-03-08 16:30:12 <sipa> it typically goes up
 877 2012-03-08 16:30:14 <sipa> slowly
 878 2012-03-08 16:30:38 JStoker_ has quit (Quit: JStoker is gone :()
 879 2012-03-08 16:30:57 cande has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 880 2012-03-08 16:32:32 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 881 2012-03-08 16:33:47 <rebroad> is m easy to calculate?
 882 2012-03-08 16:34:24 <rebroad> unspent transactions... i guess it is.. each block can be checked to see which transactions come from unspent ones quite easily
 883 2012-03-08 16:35:08 <sipa> rebroad: it's around one million now
 884 2012-03-08 16:35:41 <rebroad> sipa.. that number doesn't have much meaning for me
 885 2012-03-08 16:36:00 <rebroad> i guess as a percentage it has more meaning, right?
 886 2012-03-08 16:36:38 <sipa> around 25%, afaik
 887 2012-03-08 16:36:45 att has joined
 888 2012-03-08 16:36:47 <sipa> so 75% is spent, 25% isn't
 889 2012-03-08 16:37:14 <sipa> oh, that is 75% of transaction outputs; the number of actually fully spent transaction is probably a lot lower
 890 2012-03-08 16:37:14 <rebroad> ~28% I think
 891 2012-03-08 16:38:03 <rebroad> erm...
 892 2012-03-08 16:38:42 <rebroad> the higher the percentage, the more healthy the currency is, right?
 893 2012-03-08 16:38:54 <sipa> maybe, i'm no economist
 894 2012-03-08 16:39:48 <rebroad> Looking at the graph, there was a big jump up around block 51200...
 895 2012-03-08 16:40:00 <rebroad> so I guess that meant some old coins moved..
 896 2012-03-08 16:40:10 <jrmithdobbs> someone might want to add -Wformat to the CXXCFLAGS
 897 2012-03-08 16:40:14 <jrmithdobbs> cc1plus: warning: -Wformat-security ignored without -Wformat [-Wformat-security]
 898 2012-03-08 16:42:02 <rebroad> as bitcoins get lost, some will get stuck forever... if, for example, half of all bitcoins at some point were lost, then what impact does this have on the bitcoin days destroyed metric...
 899 2012-03-08 16:42:30 <rebroad> yeah.. i think it needs to be non-linear, thinking about it
 900 2012-03-08 16:42:47 T_X has joined
 901 2012-03-08 16:42:54 <rebroad> brain ache...
 902 2012-03-08 16:42:58 T_X has quit (Changing host)
 903 2012-03-08 16:42:58 T_X has joined
 904 2012-03-08 16:43:32 JStoker_ has joined
 905 2012-03-08 16:43:42 <rebroad> the thing about money, is that old notes become invalidated...
 906 2012-03-08 16:43:55 <rebroad> so the comparison with the FED might not be useful
 907 2012-03-08 16:44:17 <rebroad> unless...
 908 2012-03-08 16:44:20 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 909 2012-03-08 16:44:21 <rebroad> we make old coins invalid..
 910 2012-03-08 16:44:40 <rebroad> if they don't get moved, they get cancelled
 911 2012-03-08 16:44:43 <epscyl> interesting idea
 912 2012-03-08 16:45:04 <epscyl> i think adding that to bitcoin now would be a bad move
 913 2012-03-08 16:45:07 <gmaxwell> rebroad: this is kinda OT for -dev. Care to move it back to #bitcoin?
 914 2012-03-08 16:45:23 <epscyl> but i would like to see an altcoin try something like that
 915 2012-03-08 16:45:39 <rebroad> no, not to bitcoin..
 916 2012-03-08 16:45:39 <rebroad> a new coin, still in the design stage
 917 2012-03-08 16:45:48 <rebroad> gmaxwell, sure
 918 2012-03-08 16:45:50 <epscyl> coins unspect after 2 years get either deleted or re-issued
 919 2012-03-08 16:46:18 * rebroad moves to #bitcoin
 920 2012-03-08 16:46:48 <jrmithdobbs>     "errors" : "WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
 921 2012-03-08 16:46:57 <jrmithdobbs> what is that? i'm running git HEAD
 922 2012-03-08 16:47:07 <jrmithdobbs> as of like 20 min ago
 923 2012-03-08 16:47:16 <jrmithdobbs> was running rc2 before that and still had that
 924 2012-03-08 16:47:27 <gmaxwell> what height are you at?
 925 2012-03-08 16:47:39 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
 926 2012-03-08 16:47:39 <jrmithdobbs> 170059
 927 2012-03-08 16:47:39 <gribble> 170216
 928 2012-03-08 16:47:53 <sipa> ah, i understand
 929 2012-03-08 16:48:00 <sipa> rc1 downloaded those, marked them invalid
 930 2012-03-08 16:48:14 <sipa> so now they are known and rc2/head doesn't download them again
 931 2012-03-08 16:48:21 <jrmithdobbs> should i just blow away index and trim the last block?
 932 2012-03-08 16:48:43 <luke-jr> it won't reindex.
 933 2012-03-08 16:48:58 <jrmithdobbs> ugh
 934 2012-03-08 16:49:09 <rebroad> so you have to redownload the entire chain again.?
 935 2012-03-08 16:49:25 <gmaxwell> No, becuase it started working for most people.
 936 2012-03-08 16:49:40 <rebroad> yup, rc1 to rc2 was ok for me
 937 2012-03-08 16:49:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure it won't reconnect when there is a new block?
 938 2012-03-08 16:50:10 T_X has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 939 2012-03-08 16:50:15 <jrmithdobbs> we'll see in a few minutes i guess
 940 2012-03-08 16:50:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't think so
 941 2012-03-08 16:50:31 <sipa> it will not download something it already knows
 942 2012-03-08 16:50:34 <rebroad> can debug.log shed any light?
 943 2012-03-08 16:51:01 <jrmithdobbs> LOL
 944 2012-03-08 16:51:01 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:50:16.30058 version message: version 31900, blocks=0
 945 2012-03-08 16:51:02 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:50:16.30062 ProcessMessage(verack, 0 bytes) : CHECKSUM ERROR nChecksum=e2e0f65d hdr.nChecksum=d9b4bef9
 946 2012-03-08 16:51:10 <luke-jr> sipa: it might retry when another block is found?
 947 2012-03-08 16:51:11 <jrmithdobbs> guess there are still <.3.20 nodes
 948 2012-03-08 16:51:16 <sipa> maybe, yes
 949 2012-03-08 16:51:22 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: sure
 950 2012-03-08 16:51:29 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: 0.3.19 should be fine…
 951 2012-03-08 16:51:30 <sipa> even a 0.3.14 one
 952 2012-03-08 16:51:43 <gmaxwell> even a 0.2.10 one.
 953 2012-03-08 16:51:45 <jrmithdobbs> i'll see what happens once we hit a new block
 954 2012-03-08 16:51:48 <gmaxwell> But there are nodes with wrong clocks.
 955 2012-03-08 16:51:55 <gmaxwell> 08:50 < sipa> it will not download something it already knows
 956 2012-03-08 16:52:09 <gmaxwell> ::nods:: except people have reported getting unstuck just by upgrading.
 957 2012-03-08 16:52:10 <rebroad> how do other non-bitcoin-qt clients identify themselves? the version number is for bitcoin-qt only is it?
 958 2012-03-08 16:52:15 <sipa> that's indeed unrelated to reconnecting
 959 2012-03-08 16:52:19 <sipa> i may be wrong
 960 2012-03-08 16:52:26 <luke-jr> rebroad: BIP 14
 961 2012-03-08 16:52:27 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
 962 2012-03-08 16:52:27 <gribble> 170216
 963 2012-03-08 16:52:33 <sipa> rebroad: there's a version string now as well
 964 2012-03-08 16:52:38 ThomasV has joined
 965 2012-03-08 16:52:56 <sipa> and the version number was retrofitted to be a protocol version, independent from the client version
 966 2012-03-08 16:52:58 <luke-jr> unfortunately, it's impossible to differentiate between bitcoind, Bitcoin-Qt, and Spesmilo
 967 2012-03-08 16:53:07  has quit (Clown|!Clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 968 2012-03-08 16:53:15 <jrmithdobbs> bitcoind really should use a different string
 969 2012-03-08 16:53:29 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: well, at least they all report "Satoshi" now
 970 2012-03-08 16:53:36 <rebroad> why don't the clients MD5 themselves or something and use that
 971 2012-03-08 16:53:47 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: no, it really shouldn't. That just makes it easier for attackers to target services rather than desktops.
 972 2012-03-08 16:53:48 <luke-jr> Gavin and Garzik NAK'd my patch to make them report more details :/
 973 2012-03-08 16:53:54 <jrmithdobbs> rebroad: because binaries are going to be different based on compiler and that's not useful info?
 974 2012-03-08 16:54:07 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: nonsense. they can target based on IP just as well.
 975 2012-03-08 16:54:17 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it also makes it easier to prefer stable nodes though
 976 2012-03-08 16:54:25 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I can't tell if an IP is some random desktop, or a service.
 977 2012-03-08 16:54:30 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: why not?
 978 2012-03-08 16:54:33 <luke-jr> I sure can.
 979 2012-03-08 16:54:34 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you usually can
 980 2012-03-08 16:54:48 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: you can observe stability— and if you were to bias based on a string an attacker could claim the preferred string in order to gain more peers.
 981 2012-03-08 16:55:00 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: sometimes— not always.
 982 2012-03-08 16:55:15 <rebroad> jrmithdobbs, well, true.. but no harm in distinguishing between them either though is there?
 983 2012-03-08 16:55:15 <luke-jr> if it's in a static IP range and/or has port 80 open, it's probably a service.
 984 2012-03-08 16:55:18 <gmaxwell> This is information which is useful to an attacker, and not otherwise useful at all except navel gazing.
 985 2012-03-08 16:55:36 slush1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 986 2012-03-08 16:55:37 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: true enough
 987 2012-03-08 16:55:40 <luke-jr> the version number is much more of a risk than whether it's a daemon or GUI
 988 2012-03-08 16:55:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yes, I also can evade your wallet encryption if you put your password on your website. :)
 989 2012-03-08 16:55:48 <rebroad> better to have too many different verion/ids than not enough...?
 990 2012-03-08 16:55:53 <Zarutian> gmaxwell: so you arent a member of the Navel Gazing Society then?
 991 2012-03-08 16:56:11 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I agree, but the version number provide important compatbility information.
 992 2012-03-08 16:56:30 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: e.g. we were able to tell that the feb20 proto upgrade wouldn't be hugely disruptive because of it.
 993 2012-03-08 16:56:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it's illegal to use the client version number for "compatibility"
 994 2012-03-08 16:56:47 <jrmithdobbs> it's all we have without switching to like an esmtp type thing where we ask/tell features
 995 2012-03-08 16:56:56 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: anyhow, my point isn't to hide the version number, it's that hiding the client is useless
 996 2012-03-08 16:57:05 <rebroad> gmaxwell, can you measure the number of different version clients in use?
 997 2012-03-08 16:57:14 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: there's already a feature bitfield
 998 2012-03-08 16:57:17 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
 999 2012-03-08 16:57:17 <gribble> 170217
1000 2012-03-08 16:57:25 <Zarutian> luke-jr: like old telnets do and donts, will and wonts?
1001 2012-03-08 16:57:52 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Surely you admit that it releases information which is not generally useful but is potentially useful to an attacker, no?
1002 2012-03-08 16:58:09 <jrmithdobbs> nope, new block didn't unstick it
1003 2012-03-08 16:58:17 forsetifox has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1004 2012-03-08 16:58:18 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: no, I admit the opposite: it has general usefulness, and is useless to attackers.
1005 2012-03-08 16:58:28 <rebroad> ah.. yeah... revealing architecture... is possibly TMI
1006 2012-03-08 16:58:36 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: oh well, welcome to the minority.
1007 2012-03-08 16:58:53 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I disagree that position is a minority.
1008 2012-03-08 16:58:53 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: anything showing up in your logs?
1009 2012-03-08 16:58:54 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: anything to do besides a complete re-download?
1010 2012-03-08 16:59:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: just being unable to fix recent txns for respends
1011 2012-03-08 16:59:16 <jrmithdobbs> s/fix/find/
1012 2012-03-08 16:59:17 <rebroad> jrmithdobbs, well, you could stop using bitcoin :)
1013 2012-03-08 16:59:27 <jrmithdobbs> wait, just kicked off reorg
1014 2012-03-08 16:59:32 <gmaxwell> tada.
1015 2012-03-08 16:59:53 <luke-jr> I wouldn't be opposed to including OS and architecture in it, but I'd avoid revealing OS versions :P
1016 2012-03-08 17:00:06 <luke-jr> might be helpful to include locale too
1017 2012-03-08 17:00:14 <jrmithdobbs> oh fun
1018 2012-03-08 17:00:17 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no
1019 2012-03-08 17:00:35 <luke-jr> BIP 14 doesn't spec out OS/arch/locale tho
1020 2012-03-08 17:00:35 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/cRP3AKyr
1021 2012-03-08 17:00:39 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you're then also uniquely fingerprinting clients. Why not also disclose all their addresses?
1022 2012-03-08 17:01:11 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: there's ~512M free of real ram on the box and ~4G of swap free
1023 2012-03-08 17:01:13 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: because addresses are actually private
1024 2012-03-08 17:01:14 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: you running it in some kind of tight ulimits?
1025 2012-03-08 17:01:20 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no
1026 2012-03-08 17:01:29 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you can already fingerprint them with nmap anyway
1027 2012-03-08 17:01:48 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: no, you can fingerprint the firewall in front of them.
1028 2012-03-08 17:02:25 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: just as useful
1029 2012-03-08 17:02:32 <luke-jr> to attackers, anyhow
1030 2012-03-08 17:02:48 <rebroad> well, useful also, but in different ways
1031 2012-03-08 17:03:00 <rebroad> all info is useful to an attacker
1032 2012-03-08 17:03:29 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the total
1033 2012-03-08 17:03:34 <Zarutian> rebroad: does that include "the number 42 has significance!"?
1034 2012-03-08 17:03:36 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/T0Fs9C03
1035 2012-03-08 17:04:02 <rebroad> depends on the attack planned
1036 2012-03-08 17:04:10 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what harm has ever come from browsers including all these details in their user agents?
1037 2012-03-08 17:04:23 <rebroad> luke-jr, plenty
1038 2012-03-08 17:04:39 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and for good measure: http://pastebin.com/4UqKyTgq
1039 2012-03-08 17:04:49 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1040 2012-03-08 17:04:50 * luke-jr doesn't consider useful statistics to be harm
1041 2012-03-08 17:04:55 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: http://panopticlick.eff.org/ is fun
1042 2012-03-08 17:05:09 <rebroad> luke-jr, nazi!
1043 2012-03-08 17:05:15 <copumpkin> Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 2,074,365 tested so far.
1044 2012-03-08 17:05:16 <copumpkin> yay
1045 2012-03-08 17:05:19 <copumpkin> I feel so special
1046 2012-03-08 17:05:41 T_X has joined
1047 2012-03-08 17:05:41 T_X has quit (Changing host)
1048 2012-03-08 17:05:41 T_X has joined
1049 2012-03-08 17:05:44 <jrmithdobbs> Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 2,074,369 tested so far.
1050 2012-03-08 17:05:47 <jrmithdobbs> haha
1051 2012-03-08 17:05:49 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: how is that a problem?
1052 2012-03-08 17:06:19 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: because it defeats using the client behind tor for example, it removes the casual privacy that comes from dynamic ips.
1053 2012-03-08 17:06:26 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: think i should go the crazy route and try and link it against db48 or 50?
1054 2012-03-08 17:06:48 <jrmithdobbs> i don't have a wallet on that instance so shouldn't make things worse
1055 2012-03-08 17:07:16 <jrmithdobbs> apt has been whining about keeping 47-dev installed anyways, lol
1056 2012-03-08 17:07:21 <gmaxwell> yea...
1057 2012-03-08 17:07:36 <gmaxwell> ha. my _useragent_ alone is unique in their sampleset. 0_o
1058 2012-03-08 17:07:40 forsetifox has joined
1059 2012-03-08 17:07:54 <luke-jr> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 (x86_64)) AppleWebKit/535.11 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/17.0.963.56 Safari/535.11
1060 2012-03-08 17:07:59 sacarlson has joined
1061 2012-03-08 17:08:00 <luke-jr> I find it hard to believe I'm the only one with that UA
1062 2012-03-08 17:08:13 <rebroad> mine's unique too
1063 2012-03-08 17:08:28 <gmaxwell> well I don't fine it surprising.
1064 2012-03-08 17:08:43 <jrmithdobbs> mine is too
1065 2012-03-08 17:08:45 <gmaxwell> For one, this link was mostly popular a year ago.. so most of those 2m samples are from browsers a year old.
1066 2012-03-08 17:08:49 <jrmithdobbs> is chrome adding random shit to ua?
1067 2012-03-08 17:09:01 <gmaxwell> ... and I run firefox nightly.
1068 2012-03-08 17:09:23 <luke-jr> this site is crap
1069 2012-03-08 17:09:32 <luke-jr> I just spoofed a generic UA, and it claims it's unique
1070 2012-03-08 17:10:18 <jrmithdobbs> oh damn squeez doesn't even have 48 and 50 -dev packages any more
1071 2012-03-08 17:10:18 <jrmithdobbs> lol
1072 2012-03-08 17:10:23 <jrmithdobbs> err wheezy
1073 2012-03-08 17:10:43 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it it saying the _useragent_ is unique or your fingerprint.
1074 2012-03-08 17:10:52 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: which it wasn't.
1075 2012-03-08 17:11:47 <gmaxwell> It's perfectly possible to have a unique fingerprint without a unique useragent.
1076 2012-03-08 17:11:59 <luke-jr> I'm looking a the User Agent row
1077 2012-03-08 17:13:55 <Diablo-D3> [12:10:34] <Diablo-D3> woah shit
1078 2012-03-08 17:13:55 <Diablo-D3> [12:10:42] <Diablo-D3> I think AMD got -v 4 to fit on a 5850
1079 2012-03-08 17:13:55 <Diablo-D3> [12:11:02] <Diablo-D3> 2770 ops, 31 regs
1080 2012-03-08 17:13:55 <Diablo-D3> [12:12:12] <Diablo-D3> 389 mhash
1081 2012-03-08 17:13:55 <Diablo-D3> [12:12:18] <Diablo-D3> jesus.
1082 2012-03-08 17:13:56 <Diablo-D3> [12:12:23] * Diablo-D3 salutes AMD so fucking hard
1083 2012-03-08 17:13:58 <Diablo-D3> [12:12:56] <Diablo-D3> I'll have to find the new optimum mangling for this kernel and commit it asap
1084 2012-03-08 17:14:39  has joined
1085 2012-03-08 17:14:41 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: you could use my loadblocks patch, that lets you import an external blk0001.dat file, it's still slow though
1086 2012-03-08 17:14:56 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: it's trying to reorg and bdb is failing
1087 2012-03-08 17:15:03 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i'm going to build against bdb 5.3 first
1088 2012-03-08 17:15:49 <jrmithdobbs> i think my 47 libs were no longer linked against working shit because they were ancient and hadn't been rebuilt since the debian /(usr/)?lib(/arch)? reorg
1089 2012-03-08 17:16:50 <jrmithdobbs> lets see what happens: libdb_cxx-5.3.so => /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libdb_cxx-5.3.so (0xb7571000)
1090 2012-03-08 17:17:22 p0s has joined
1091 2012-03-08 17:18:05 <sipa> maybe a -rewind argument to forcefully disconnect an existing chain would be useful
1092 2012-03-08 17:18:05 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: also you should change your uptime checker to check for blockheight too as that node is reporting 100% up for last 7 days when it's been out of sync for at least 2-3 now
1093 2012-03-08 17:18:29 <jrmithdobbs> ya that could be useful
1094 2012-03-08 17:18:35 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
1095 2012-03-08 17:18:35 <gribble> 170218
1096 2012-03-08 17:18:56  has quit (Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1097 2012-03-08 17:19:03 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: how to decide what the real height is?
1098 2012-03-08 17:19:23 <sipa> actually, it could make it do occassional rpc calls to bitcoin
1099 2012-03-08 17:19:43 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: or it could take height X to be true after seeing Y times
1100 2012-03-08 17:20:17 <jrmithdobbs> nope, still getting bdb exceptions after upgrading to 5.3
1101 2012-03-08 17:20:44 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_17:19:05.08783 ************************
1102 2012-03-08 17:20:44 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_17:19:05.08784 EXCEPTION: 11DbException
1103 2012-03-08 17:20:44 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_17:19:05.08785 Db::put: Cannot allocate memory
1104 2012-03-08 17:20:44 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_17:19:05.08786 bitcoin in ProcessMessage()
1105 2012-03-08 17:21:41  has joined
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1107 2012-03-08 17:22:22 <jrmithdobbs> could this be the problem?
1108 2012-03-08 17:22:23 <jrmithdobbs> $ sudo su - bitcoin -c 'ulimit -v; ulimit -m;ulimit -l'
1109 2012-03-08 17:22:23 <jrmithdobbs> unlimited
1110 2012-03-08 17:22:23 <jrmithdobbs> unlimited
1111 2012-03-08 17:22:23 <jrmithdobbs> 64
1112 2012-03-08 17:22:40 <jrmithdobbs> -l        the maximum size a process may lock into memory
1113 2012-03-08 17:23:18 <gmaxwell> hm. did excessive mlocking get reintroduced? :(
1114 2012-03-08 17:23:26 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1115 2012-03-08 17:23:33 <sipa> not that i know of
1116 2012-03-08 17:24:11 fimpfimp has joined
1117 2012-03-08 17:24:29 <jrmithdobbs> only see calls for it in crypter
1118 2012-03-08 17:24:59 <sipa> CSecret is normally protected by mlock as well, via a custom memory allocator
1119 2012-03-08 17:26:09 <jrmithdobbs> ya it keeps trying to reorg and fix itself but getting that bdb exception
1120 2012-03-08 17:27:37 <jrmithdobbs> it either gets that bdb exception or a VerifySignature failed
1121 2012-03-08 17:27:39 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41061 received block 000000000000094a61eb
1122 2012-03-08 17:27:39 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41062 REORGANIZE
1123 2012-03-08 17:27:39 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41062 ERROR: ConnectInputs() : 6a26d2ecb6 VerifySignature failed
1124 2012-03-08 17:27:42 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41063 ERROR: Reorganize() : ConnectBlock failed
1125 2012-03-08 17:27:45 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41063 InvalidChainFound: invalid block=000000000000094a61eb  height=170210  work=2573484675382256541
1126 2012-03-08 17:27:48 <jrmithdobbs> 03
1127 2012-03-08 17:27:50 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41064 InvalidChainFound:  current best=00000000000003bd2bf5  height=170059  work=2563776021336197631
1128 2012-03-08 17:27:53 <jrmithdobbs> 00
1129 2012-03-08 17:27:56 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41064 InvalidChainFound: WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrad
1130 2012-03-08 17:27:59 <jrmithdobbs> e, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
1131 2012-03-08 17:28:01 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41065 ERROR: SetBestChain() : Reorganize failed
1132 2012-03-08 17:28:04 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41065 ERROR: AcceptBlock() : AddToBlockIndex failed
1133 2012-03-08 17:28:06 <jrmithdobbs> 2012-03-08_16:22:39.41066 ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED
1134 2012-03-08 17:28:22 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1141 2012-03-08 17:38:26 <jrmithdobbs> ah ha!
1142 2012-03-08 17:38:28 <jrmithdobbs> BDB2055 Lock table is out of available lock entries
1143 2012-03-08 17:38:29 <jrmithdobbs> in db.log
1144 2012-03-08 17:38:48 <sipa> muh?
1145 2012-03-08 17:45:29 Davincij15 has joined
1146 2012-03-08 17:45:58 <jrmithdobbs> looks like the reorg op is causing too many locks in bdb
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1150 2012-03-08 17:49:30 <jrmithdobbs> For Btree and Recno databases additional lock objects may be needed for each node in the btree that has to be split due to an update.
1151 2012-03-08 17:49:33 <jrmithdobbs> yup.
1152 2012-03-08 17:50:53 att has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1154 2012-03-08 17:52:27 <jrmithdobbs> think i can hotpatch to make it start working again, let's see if this work
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1158 2012-03-08 17:54:24 <jrmithdobbs> wow, bumping it to 50000 locks still gets that
1159 2012-03-08 17:55:44 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: please upgrade to 48 to see if the issue still exists there?
1160 2012-03-08 17:55:45 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, possibly it's trying to reorg the entire tree?
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1167 2012-03-08 18:11:25 coingenuity is now known as Guest93522
1168 2012-03-08 18:12:15 Guest93522 is now known as coingenuity
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1171 2012-03-08 18:17:25 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i upgraded bdb to 53
1172 2012-03-08 18:17:49 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: ya, i'm bumping it to 500k locks and 1mil objects and see what happens
1173 2012-03-08 18:21:31 <jrmithdobbs> well it's using 100M more ram so far and no errors yet
1174 2012-03-08 18:21:59 <jrmithdobbs> with locks/objects/lockers (don't think latter needs changing, but w/e) to 1mil
1175 2012-03-08 18:22:35 <jrmithdobbs> bam, fixed itself with the reorg
1176 2012-03-08 18:22:40 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, sounds like you just had a monumental reorg
1177 2012-03-08 18:22:56 TD has joined
1178 2012-03-08 18:22:59 <phantomcircuit> probably were missing like 1 block somewhere and got all the rest of them at once in a freak accident
1179 2012-03-08 18:23:01 <jrmithdobbs> ya but i shouldn't have needed to patch the source to get it to rebuild successfully
1180 2012-03-08 18:23:12 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: yes, it had that block that rc1 wouldn't validate
1181 2012-03-08 18:23:34 <jrmithdobbs> unlike the other people that ran into this i didn't notice fast enough apparently
1182 2012-03-08 18:23:41 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
1183 2012-03-08 18:23:42 <gribble> 170225
1184 2012-03-08 18:24:04 <jrmithdobbs> just gonn paste this here for posterity if anyone else runs into it
1185 2012-03-08 18:24:04 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
1186 2012-03-08 18:24:06 <jrmithdobbs> diff --git a/src/db.cpp b/src/db.cpp
1187 2012-03-08 18:24:06 <jrmithdobbs> index b77a038..0279e88 100644
1188 2012-03-08 18:24:06 <jrmithdobbs> --- a/src/db.cpp
1189 2012-03-08 18:24:06 <jrmithdobbs> +++ b/src/db.cpp
1190 2012-03-08 18:24:08 <jrmithdobbs> @@ -86,8 +86,9 @@ CDB::CDB(const char* pszFile, const char* pszMode) : pdb(NULL)
1191 2012-03-08 18:24:11 <jrmithdobbs> dbenv.set_lg_dir(strLogDir.c_str()); dbenv.set_lg_max(10000000);
1192 2012-03-08 18:24:14 <jrmithdobbs> -            dbenv.set_lk_max_locks(10000);
1193 2012-03-08 18:24:16 <jrmithdobbs> -            dbenv.set_lk_max_objects(10000);
1194 2012-03-08 18:24:19 <jrmithdobbs> +            dbenv.set_lk_max_lockers(1000000);
1195 2012-03-08 18:24:21 <jrmithdobbs> +            dbenv.set_lk_max_locks(1000000);
1196 2012-03-08 18:24:24 <jrmithdobbs> +            dbenv.set_lk_max_objects(1000000); dbenv.set_errfile(fopen(strErrorFile.c_str(), "a")); /// debug
1197 2012-03-08 18:24:27 <jrmithdobbs>              dbenv.set_flags(DB_AUTO_COMMIT, 1);
1198 2012-03-08 18:24:29 <jrmithdobbs>              ret = dbenv.open(strDataDir.c_str(),
1199 2012-03-08 18:24:43 <sipa> we'll probably need that in mainline by the time releases switch to 5.3
1200 2012-03-08 18:25:13 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: it was doing it on 4.7 for me, we probably need it now
1201 2012-03-08 18:25:27 <jrmithdobbs> but it bumps ram usage by ~100M, i don't think adjusting lockers is necessary
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1204 2012-03-08 18:26:31 <jrmithdobbs> i don't know that it should be bumped that high but maybe a --force-block-reorg or something that'll start it up in a mode that just verifies it's chain after opening the bdb env with those settings
1205 2012-03-08 18:26:55 <jrmithdobbs> (it failed just bumping to 100k btw)
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1209 2012-03-08 18:36:55 <jrmithdobbs> reorg and change the values back and everything's running smooth again now
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1229 2012-03-08 19:46:51 <diki> etotheipi_:does armory support "mining"?
1230 2012-03-08 19:46:57 zz_bitcoinsarefu is now known as bitcoinsarefun
1231 2012-03-08 19:49:19 localhost has joined
1232 2012-03-08 19:51:33 lyspooner has joined
1233 2012-03-08 19:56:41 <lyspooner> i am running Bitcoin-QT (bitcoin version 0.5.0.1-beta) and when i click "New Address..." the new address is not on top of my Receive Coins list.  since there is no date on when the address was created, it is very difficult to tell which one was just created
1234 2012-03-08 19:57:23 <lyspooner> i ended up copying the wrong address
1235 2012-03-08 19:58:54 <BlueMatt> file a bug report, Id say
1236 2012-03-08 19:59:07 <BlueMatt> or is that a feature request? anyway, github...
1237 2012-03-08 20:00:37 <lyspooner> this is as far as my bug report goes
1238 2012-03-08 20:00:41 <lyspooner> :(
1239 2012-03-08 20:01:03 <jrmithdobbs> new toys
1240 2012-03-08 20:01:08 <jrmithdobbs> Not yet shipped `2Fast2BCn Single retail Entropy Key  -  A single Entropy Key, in case with driver CD£72.00
1241 2012-03-08 20:02:33 phantomfakeBNC has joined
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1268 2012-03-08 20:52:54 <helo> is there any existing work that can display a transaction as a qr code?
1269 2012-03-08 20:53:51 <jrmithdobbs> helo: you could mangle sipas export wallet stuff to do that
1270 2012-03-08 20:53:57 <jrmithdobbs> but it needs rebasing atm i htink
1271 2012-03-08 20:54:43 <helo> i think i'm going to write an android app that can inject transactions into the network via QR code
1272 2012-03-08 20:54:44 <jrmithdobbs> helo: just chunk it to sizes that will fit in whatever qr version (40 holds most but lots of phones have a hard time reading) and pipe it to something like libqrcode
1273 2012-03-08 20:55:13 <jrmithdobbs> oh that's a bit more work
1274 2012-03-08 20:55:34 <helo> i'm just going to use bitcoinspinner's code, which uses bccapi
1275 2012-03-08 20:56:05 <jrmithdobbs> not familiar with either
1276 2012-03-08 20:56:29 <helo> should be pretty easy... didn't want to do any work if it had already been done :)
1277 2012-03-08 21:01:55 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1278 2012-03-08 21:04:11 OpenOcean is now known as Mad7Scientist
1279 2012-03-08 21:06:46 iocor has joined
1280 2012-03-08 21:11:52 <helo> bah... bccapi server does not appear to be open source
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1291 2012-03-08 21:45:01 <candlepin> jeff garzik is one of the top contributors to the linux kernel
1292 2012-03-08 21:45:08 <candlepin> http://lwn.net/Articles/451243/
1293 2012-03-08 21:45:13 <candlepin> cool
1294 2012-03-08 21:47:57 fimpfimp has joined
1295 2012-03-08 21:48:50 _Fireball has joined
1296 2012-03-08 21:48:53 pingdrive has joined
1297 2012-03-08 21:48:57 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1298 2012-03-08 21:48:58 <_Fireball> hi
1299 2012-03-08 21:49:04 <RedEmerald> lol microsoft has more commits to linux 3 than google
1300 2012-03-08 21:49:16 <_Fireball> what Berkeley DB version is supposed to be used for building bitcoind?
1301 2012-03-08 21:49:32 <_Fireball> or, moer precisely, would latest 5.x work?
1302 2012-03-08 21:50:06 <pingdrive> yes
1303 2012-03-08 21:50:13 <pingdrive> it works
1304 2012-03-08 21:50:16 <_Fireball> ok thanks
1305 2012-03-08 21:50:32 <_Fireball> I'm having some strange problems though
1306 2012-03-08 21:50:58 <_Fireball> like Db::put: not enough space exception in ProcessMessage(block, ...) ;(
1307 2012-03-08 21:51:24 <pingdrive> not sure what you mean
1308 2012-03-08 21:51:31 <pingdrive> i was able to open all .dat files
1309 2012-03-08 21:51:49 <pingdrive> with python and pybsddb
1310 2012-03-08 21:51:52 <pingdrive> module
1311 2012-03-08 21:52:00 <_Fireball> ah, no, I mean building bitcoind itself
1312 2012-03-08 21:52:12 <pingdrive> oj
1313 2012-03-08 21:52:13 <pingdrive> oh
1314 2012-03-08 21:52:16 <pingdrive> dont know
1315 2012-03-08 21:52:25 <_Fireball> ok
1316 2012-03-08 21:52:27 <pingdrive> i guess if you can open it with 5.3
1317 2012-03-08 21:52:31 <pingdrive> you can prolly build it
1318 2012-03-08 21:52:36 <_Fireball> hehe ok
1319 2012-03-08 21:52:42 <pingdrive> 5.3 is backwards compatible
1320 2012-03-08 21:55:37 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1322 2012-03-08 21:59:50 <_Fireball> ah, one more question: if I run bitcoind node, what ports do I need to open in the firewall for incoming connections, so that my connections count would be more than 8-10?
1323 2012-03-08 22:00:16 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1324 2012-03-08 22:00:17 <_Fireball> I tried opening 8333, but it did not help much
1325 2012-03-08 22:02:41 [Tycho] has joined
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1329 2012-03-08 22:11:15 <pingdrive> 8332
1330 2012-03-08 22:11:17 <pingdrive> 8331
1331 2012-03-08 22:11:55 <pingdrive> check if you have proxy set up in bitcoin.conf
1332 2012-03-08 22:11:59 <pingdrive> that might interfere
1333 2012-03-08 22:12:41 <_Fireball> 8332 is for remote RPC connections
1334 2012-03-08 22:12:45 <_Fireball> what's 8331 is for?
1335 2012-03-08 22:13:01 <pingdrive> just in case
1336 2012-03-08 22:13:02 <pingdrive> :P
1337 2012-03-08 22:13:05 <_Fireball> haha
1338 2012-03-08 22:13:28 <pingdrive> so i can connect
1339 2012-03-08 22:13:28 <pingdrive> lol
1340 2012-03-08 22:13:32 <_Fireball> :P
1341 2012-03-08 22:14:33 erle- has joined
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1343 2012-03-08 22:22:47 <neofutur> proxy set up in bitcoin.conf
1344 2012-03-08 22:22:55 <neofutur> is that what I should use for merged mining ?
1345 2012-03-08 22:27:14 <pingdrive> huh?
1346 2012-03-08 22:27:39 <pingdrive> no you use it if you want to "hide" your ip
1347 2012-03-08 22:33:22 iocor has joined
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1369 2012-03-08 23:09:32 <rebroad> a couple of people had clients unable to gain height for at least 48 minutes until just now
1370 2012-03-08 23:09:47 <rebroad> and suddenly they got up to date at the same time
1371 2012-03-08 23:09:53 <rebroad> 0.6.0rc2 and 0.5.3-beta
1372 2012-03-08 23:10:57 [\\\] is now known as imsaguy
1373 2012-03-08 23:11:34 <gmaxwell> rebroad: there was just a 48 minute gap between blocks.
1374 2012-03-08 23:12:00 <rebroad> ah! ok
1375 2012-03-08 23:12:07 <gmaxwell> 2887 seconds according to their timestamps.
1376 2012-03-08 23:12:09 <rebroad> so all clients would have noticed it
1377 2012-03-08 23:12:13 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1378 2012-03-08 23:12:22 <rebroad> a sudden drop in mining activity?
1379 2012-03-08 23:13:03 <gmaxwell> No. The process is stochastic, long gaps will happen from time to time even if the rate is constant.
1380 2012-03-08 23:13:47 <rebroad> ah. so the 10 mins is an average, and the hash can take longer or less time to crack?
1381 2012-03-08 23:13:59 <copumpkin> yeah, sometimes you get two blocks in a minute
1382 2012-03-08 23:14:07 <copumpkin> others you don't get one in an hour
1383 2012-03-08 23:14:11 <rebroad> ah.. i did wonder about that before now
1384 2012-03-08 23:14:37 <rebroad> I guess it standard deviation with 10 mins in the middle...
1385 2012-03-08 23:14:49 <rebroad> or something like that..
1386 2012-03-08 23:15:03 Z0rZ0rZ0r1 has joined
1387 2012-03-08 23:15:07 <copumpkin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_distribution
1388 2012-03-08 23:15:08 <gmaxwell> it's a poisson process.
1389 2012-03-08 23:15:18 <gmaxwell> So the gaps are from the exponential distribution.
1390 2012-03-08 23:15:55 <gmaxwell> .8% of the gaps will be 48 minutes or longer, assuming constant hash rate.
1391 2012-03-08 23:16:22 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1392 2012-03-08 23:16:36 <rebroad> ah.... so how does bitcoin-qt decide when to show a green tick?
1393 2012-03-08 23:16:38 <gmaxwell> ( e^(-1/10*40) )
1394 2012-03-08 23:16:58 dvide_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1395 2012-03-08 23:17:05 <rebroad> just when the last block is within 10 mins?
1396 2012-03-08 23:17:13 dvide has joined
1397 2012-03-08 23:17:15 <gmaxwell> that would be dumb, I hope it doesn't do that.
1398 2012-03-08 23:17:20 <rebroad> heh..
1399 2012-03-08 23:17:23 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1400 2012-03-08 23:17:32 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I did see something earlier where multiple clients saw the most recent blocks, but didn't show any txns for minutes
1401 2012-03-08 23:18:57 JRWR has joined
1402 2012-03-08 23:20:22 <nanotube> gmaxwell: i have noticed a couple of times when it says 'syncing' even though it has the latest block, because the latest block is too long ago.
1403 2012-03-08 23:20:30 <nanotube> so it indeed could be silly like that.
1404 2012-03-08 23:20:42 <copumpkin> yeah, I've had that too
1405 2012-03-08 23:20:48 <copumpkin> it's kind of silly
1406 2012-03-08 23:21:26 <Graet> +1
1407 2012-03-08 23:21:50 <forsetifox> How does the bitcoin network assign a priority to a transaction?
1408 2012-03-08 23:22:11 <luke-jr> individual miners do
1409 2012-03-08 23:23:27 <forsetifox> How does that work Luke?
1410 2012-03-08 23:23:57 <rebroad> it's not easy to find the bit of code that does the green tick..
1411 2012-03-08 23:24:08 <rebroad> I can't even find the text "Up to date." in the source!
1412 2012-03-08 23:26:00 Cablesaurus has joined
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1416 2012-03-08 23:30:43 Karmaon has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8-dev)
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1418 2012-03-08 23:33:47 <rebroad> ah.. its's 30 minutes
1419 2012-03-08 23:34:01 <rebroad> if it's over 30 minutes it shows a spinning thing, under 30 mins a tick
1420 2012-03-08 23:34:02 XMPPwocky has joined
1421 2012-03-08 23:34:40 <rebroad> hmmm. is there a better way?
1422 2012-03-08 23:37:25 graingert is now known as raspberry_pi
1423 2012-03-08 23:37:48 raspberry_pi is now known as graingert
1424 2012-03-08 23:38:56 Karmaon has joined
1425 2012-03-08 23:40:05 <rebroad> I'd really like to be able to compile bitcoin-qt still....  could anyone point me in the direction of where I can get past this is_fundamental.hpp: No such file or directory error please?
1426 2012-03-08 23:43:21 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1427 2012-03-08 23:44:12 <sipa> do you have boost?
1428 2012-03-08 23:45:25 <rebroad> I have whatever the readme file told me to install..
1429 2012-03-08 23:46:36 <rebroad> hmmm. do I need libboost-dev?
1430 2012-03-08 23:46:41 <rebroad> I don't have that installed
1431 2012-03-08 23:47:03 <rebroad> I'll install that now
1432 2012-03-08 23:47:17 <rebroad> thanks sipa
1433 2012-03-08 23:47:31 JRWR has joined
1434 2012-03-08 23:48:32 <rebroad> ok, i was wrong.. i must have missed it.. :-s
1435 2012-03-08 23:49:03 tcatm is now known as tcatm_
1436 2012-03-08 23:49:07 <rebroad> weird.. i did install it earlier today, i just checked my shell history
1437 2012-03-08 23:50:21 chrisb__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1438 2012-03-08 23:50:48 <rebroad> i ran out of space on / earlier, might have been that
1439 2012-03-08 23:51:42 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1440 2012-03-08 23:53:25 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1446 2012-03-08 23:58:15 <rebroad> almost installed... missing miniwget.h now.... :-s
1447 2012-03-08 23:59:23 <luke-jr> miniupnpc…
1448 2012-03-08 23:59:33 <luke-jr> or build with upnp not supported
1449 2012-03-08 23:59:41 <rebroad> that the one I have to download from tuxfamily.org?
1450 2012-03-08 23:59:51 <rebroad> thanks, luke-jr