1 2012-03-09 00:04:47 danbri has joined
   2 2012-03-09 00:06:34 <rebroad> I've instralled miniupnpd now.. but still getting that error....
   3 2012-03-09 00:08:25 <BlueMatt> you nead miniupnpc not miniupnpd
   4 2012-03-09 00:08:33 <BlueMatt> s/nead/need/
   5 2012-03-09 00:08:49 <rebroad> ah... thank you
   6 2012-03-09 00:12:01 <rebroad> could do with a ./configure type script which downloads things like that and installs, etc
   7 2012-03-09 00:12:08 archo47 has quit ()
   8 2012-03-09 00:13:43 <rebroad> so, when the client shows the confirmation, 6 requiring a tick.. is it really the 6 confirmations that should change the icon, or the time since the transaction first happened?
   9 2012-03-09 00:13:48 tcatm_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
  10 2012-03-09 00:14:04 <rebroad> e.g. is a block that takes 48 minutes as good as 3 blocks that take 10 minutes each?
  11 2012-03-09 00:14:28 <rebroad> probably a question for #bitcoin
  12 2012-03-09 00:14:37 <nanotube> no, a block is a block
  13 2012-03-09 00:14:39 <rebroad> wow. compiled! at last!
  14 2012-03-09 00:14:53 <nanotube> 1 long block is not any better than a short block
  15 2012-03-09 00:15:05 <nanotube> it's all about the work it would take to overtake the chain
  16 2012-03-09 00:18:24 <rebroad> bugger... something's gone wrong.. I seem to have lost bitcoins running this compiled version...
  17 2012-03-09 00:18:30 <sipa> i've considered using the measure (sum_of_difficulties_since_tx / current_difficulty) * 10minutes as security measure
  18 2012-03-09 00:18:58 <sipa> it means how much time the current network would need in its entirety to revert the transaction
  19 2012-03-09 00:19:42 <rebroad> or maybe I just spent them and didn't realise....! probably more likely...
  20 2012-03-09 00:24:39 chao has joined
  21 2012-03-09 00:27:30 blumenkraft has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  22 2012-03-09 00:27:41 graingert has left ()
  23 2012-03-09 00:27:53 <nanotube> try a rescan of the chain rebroad
  24 2012-03-09 00:28:16 <nanotube> sipa: heh yea that's interesting
  25 2012-03-09 00:28:23 <rebroad> nanotube, thanks.. I think I was just losing track of my bitcoins though.. I did some math on the transactions and it adds up to what i thought I had
  26 2012-03-09 00:28:31 <nanotube> ah ok
  27 2012-03-09 00:29:13 <rebroad> if my wallet.dat is password protected, is it ok to upload it to dropbox?
  28 2012-03-09 00:29:28 <BlueMatt> I wouldnt
  29 2012-03-09 00:29:46 <BlueMatt> it still has your tx list addr list, etc unencrypted
  30 2012-03-09 00:30:12 <BlueMatt> if you dont mind publishing that, then go ahead
  31 2012-03-09 00:30:31 <rebroad> BlueMatt, no silkroad purchases, so I'm ok with that :)
  32 2012-03-09 00:30:34 <copumpkin> anyone know who http://blockchain.info/address/0568015a9facccfd09d70d409b6fc1a5546cecc6 is?
  33 2012-03-09 00:30:44 <copumpkin> some mixer address?
  34 2012-03-09 00:30:51 <luke-jr> rebroad: I wouldn't. Too many leaks.
  35 2012-03-09 00:31:00 <rebroad> luke-jr, leaks? of what?
  36 2012-03-09 00:31:09 <luke-jr> rebroad: of sensitive info
  37 2012-03-09 00:31:21 <luke-jr> originally, you were almost guaranteed a leak of private keys
  38 2012-03-09 00:31:32 <BlueMatt> someone emailed me their wallet which wasnt sending (turns out it wasnt corrupted, not sure what the problem was, but...) and it had send addresses which were marked SR
  39 2012-03-09 00:31:33 <luke-jr> that's fixed now, but I'm not sure I'd trust it still :/
  40 2012-03-09 00:31:37 <BlueMatt> it was clearly silkroad...
  41 2012-03-09 00:31:43 <sipa> BlueMatt: SR?
  42 2012-03-09 00:31:49 <BlueMatt> silkroad Id bet
  43 2012-03-09 00:31:51 <sipa> ah
  44 2012-03-09 00:31:52 <rebroad> ah..
  45 2012-03-09 00:32:53 <sipa> luke-jr: i plan to implement determinstic wallets decently soon, then make some encrypted dumps of the wallet.dat file, and store them somewhere safe
  46 2012-03-09 00:33:14 <sipa> that's the only way i'll ever feel completely confident with a wallet file
  47 2012-03-09 00:33:16 <nanotube> rebroad: i would recommend encrypting it with gpg in addition.
  48 2012-03-09 00:33:16 <luke-jr> sipa: ♥
  49 2012-03-09 00:33:23 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  50 2012-03-09 00:33:34 <rebroad> nanotube, but my private keys are safe, right?
  51 2012-03-09 00:33:34 <luke-jr> sipa and nanotube should be in charge of bitcoin :P
  52 2012-03-09 00:33:57 da2ce7 has joined
  53 2012-03-09 00:33:57 * nanotube prefers to defer to sipa :)
  54 2012-03-09 00:34:00 <sipa> luke-jr: i'm no leader
  55 2012-03-09 00:34:09 <nanotube> hehe
  56 2012-03-09 00:34:13 <luke-jr> sipa: most good leaders aren't.
  57 2012-03-09 00:35:00 <nanotube> sipa: even before deterministic wallets, just create a wallet with keypool=somelargenumberthatwilllastyouformanyyears, encrypt, dump - and you're in the same good secure boat.
  58 2012-03-09 00:35:37 <luke-jr> nanotube: nah, that just increases the liklihood you forget to rebackup when you need to :p
  59 2012-03-09 00:35:43 <sipa> exactly
  60 2012-03-09 00:35:52 <sipa> plus, it would be huge
  61 2012-03-09 00:36:03 <nanotube> privkeys aren't that large
  62 2012-03-09 00:36:30 <nanotube> though i guess the 'large number' would depend on your tx volume. it's not that large for me :) but may be different for yo.
  63 2012-03-09 00:36:31 <nanotube> u
  64 2012-03-09 00:36:50 <sipa> no not large here either
  65 2012-03-09 00:37:00 <nanotube> luke-jr: that's a valid point i guess... but just set yourself a reminder to back up every year, while you know that your wallet is good for 10 years - and that's plenty of margin for error.
  66 2012-03-09 00:37:09 * luke-jr does a lot of Bitcoin transfers.
  67 2012-03-09 00:37:24 <nanotube> pool-related?
  68 2012-03-09 00:37:29 <luke-jr> not necessarily
  69 2012-03-09 00:38:11 <luke-jr> for example, I just sold a BitFORCE Single FPGA for 180 BTC
  70 2012-03-09 00:38:20 draco49[afk] is now known as draco49
  71 2012-03-09 00:38:25 copumpkin is now known as scammerboy
  72 2012-03-09 00:38:28 <nanotube> that's only one transfer
  73 2012-03-09 00:38:34 <luke-jr> for example :p
  74 2012-03-09 00:38:59 <sipa> sure, i occassionaly buy/sell things as well, but it's far from a daily activity
  75 2012-03-09 00:39:04 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  76 2012-03-09 00:39:05 <nanotube> :) yes so i was basically asking, what's your non-pool-related tx volume?
  77 2012-03-09 00:39:14 <luke-jr> maybe 1-2 times a month <.<
  78 2012-03-09 00:39:39 <nanotube> yea that's not much. :)
  79 2012-03-09 00:39:41 scammerboy is now known as copumpkin
  80 2012-03-09 00:39:42 <rebroad> are there any particular nodes that people recommending doing an addnode for?
  81 2012-03-09 00:39:50 <luke-jr> rebroad: relay.eligius.st? :p
  82 2012-03-09 00:39:55 <nanotube> since aug 2010, i have a total of <1000 tx in my wallet.
  83 2012-03-09 00:40:00 <BlueMatt> rebroad: there is almost always no need for addnode
  84 2012-03-09 00:40:13 <copumpkin> so anyone have any ideas about that active address I linked to?
  85 2012-03-09 00:40:17 <sipa> i've far too frequently switched wallets to count them still
  86 2012-03-09 00:40:35 <nanotube> heh, i'm still using my "original wallet" :)
  87 2012-03-09 00:40:53 <nanotube> for my 'spending account'
  88 2012-03-09 00:41:00 * BlueMatt is only on his second real wallet
  89 2012-03-09 00:41:26 <luke-jr> 1192 for me
  90 2012-03-09 00:41:29 barmstrong has joined
  91 2012-03-09 00:42:04 <nanotube> copumpkin: not really. maybe someone just trying to accumulate a high received count :D
  92 2012-03-09 00:42:20 <copumpkin> they've succeeded :P
  93 2012-03-09 00:42:45 <nanotube> so... if i were to generate a wallet with 100k keys in the pool.... and if my tx volume doesn't go up significantly (i don't anticipate that it will for my personal wallet), i am probably good for 100 years :)
  94 2012-03-09 00:43:04 <rebroad> is it possible to ask nodes how much my node is misbehaving?
  95 2012-03-09 00:43:56 <rebroad> i think if not, it should be
  96 2012-03-09 00:45:20 forrestv has quit (Excess Flood)
  97 2012-03-09 00:46:00 <BlueMatt> not currently, and Im not sure that is required
  98 2012-03-09 00:46:04 <BlueMatt> or why it would be required
  99 2012-03-09 00:46:09 <BlueMatt> (aside from debugging connection issues)
 100 2012-03-09 00:46:21 <rebroad> it allows the network to adapt to new clients and thresholds
 101 2012-03-09 00:46:33 <rebroad> if a node has a low threshold, then the node talking to it can adapt
 102 2012-03-09 00:46:42 <rebroad> rather than be banned
 103 2012-03-09 00:46:45 <BlueMatt> but afaik only the satoshi client even implements "misbehaving counts"
 104 2012-03-09 00:46:50 <rebroad> like people, it's nice to know if one is being annoying
 105 2012-03-09 00:47:15 <rebroad> BlueMatt, is that a new or an old version?
 106 2012-03-09 00:48:11 <BlueMatt> what?
 107 2012-03-09 00:48:26 <BlueMatt> the satoshi client = the client you download from bitcoin.org
 108 2012-03-09 00:48:30 <BlueMatt> (there are a few others)
 109 2012-03-09 00:49:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: libcoin probably too
 110 2012-03-09 00:49:46 <BlueMatt> oh, good point
 111 2012-03-09 00:50:28 * BlueMatt finds it a shame libcoin is going to split, it would have been nice if it was done in a way that was more merge-friendly (not sure what that would be, but...)
 112 2012-03-09 00:50:53 <rebroad> why is libcoin splitting?
 113 2012-03-09 00:50:58 ivan\ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 114 2012-03-09 00:51:01 <BlueMatt> afaik it is
 115 2012-03-09 00:51:29 <BlueMatt> at least I would assume it is since I havent seen any mention of trying to merge it...
 116 2012-03-09 00:52:19 <sipa> i think we should try to incorporate some of it
 117 2012-03-09 00:53:19 <BlueMatt>  /nod
 118 2012-03-09 00:54:41 <rebroad> it is possible to make bitcoin-qt do less pinging and polling when there is no network connected to the OS? most apps seem to more easily know when the network is down... e.g. if there's no default gateway, then there's no point in pinging nodes so quickly is there?
 119 2012-03-09 00:55:44 <BlueMatt> seems like a simple enough patch that we should do...
 120 2012-03-09 00:57:24 forrestv has joined
 121 2012-03-09 00:57:36 ivan\ has joined
 122 2012-03-09 00:58:26 pingdrive has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 123 2012-03-09 01:01:43 <rebroad> goodnight all
 124 2012-03-09 01:01:57 <BlueMatt> gnight
 125 2012-03-09 01:03:50 SuprTiggr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 126 2012-03-09 01:04:34 SuprTiggr has joined
 127 2012-03-09 01:06:34 <da2ce7> helllo
 128 2012-03-09 01:08:17 <sipa> hi da2ce7
 129 2012-03-09 01:09:36 <da2ce7> what
 130 2012-03-09 01:09:41 <da2ce7> what's been happening?
 131 2012-03-09 01:10:37 <sipa> a fake BIP16 transaction that killed off rc1 nodes with an earlier switchover date
 132 2012-03-09 01:10:51 <sipa> the top 5 pools support BIP30
 133 2012-03-09 01:11:21 <da2ce7> good well we can moveup BIP30 to tomorow then?
 134 2012-03-09 01:11:24 <da2ce7> or real soon?
 135 2012-03-09 01:11:42 <sipa> support as in promised to update
 136 2012-03-09 01:11:58 <da2ce7> ah. ok
 137 2012-03-09 01:12:02 <da2ce7> no patches yet.
 138 2012-03-09 01:12:09 <sipa> none that i know of
 139 2012-03-09 01:12:25 <sipa> well, there are patches, but not applied where needed :)
 140 2012-03-09 01:13:03 <da2ce7> why don't you have eveyone make a patch, then you turn the patch on with an alert? eg. "Turn on patch BIP30 at blocx xyz"
 141 2012-03-09 01:13:22 <da2ce7> and all the patch puts a 'ready for BIP30 in the coinbase"
 142 2012-03-09 01:13:28 <sipa> because that would make the patch significantly larger and harder to get accepted
 143 2012-03-09 01:13:41 <sipa> the only reason it can be deployed this quickly is because it is so simple
 144 2012-03-09 01:13:47 <da2ce7> ya
 145 2012-03-09 01:14:49 <da2ce7> I was thinking about it... using an alert to turn on a patch, that pre-reports in the coin-base, sounds like a pritty fool-proof way of doing network upgrades.
 146 2012-03-09 01:17:21 rebroad has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 147 2012-03-09 01:17:52 andytoshi has joined
 148 2012-03-09 01:19:05 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 149 2012-03-09 01:19:44 barmstrong has joined
 150 2012-03-09 01:20:22 <luke-jr> da2ce7: just as well to autodetect it from coinbases :p
 151 2012-03-09 01:22:13 <doublec> copumpkin: isn't that deepbit's payment address?
 152 2012-03-09 01:22:28 <copumpkin> doublec: 6.5 million coins?
 153 2012-03-09 01:22:30 <copumpkin> :S
 154 2012-03-09 01:22:38 denisx has joined
 155 2012-03-09 01:23:05 <sipa> ?
 156 2012-03-09 01:23:15 <sipa> deepbit's address is 1VayNert
 157 2012-03-09 01:23:19 <sipa> or something like that
 158 2012-03-09 01:23:38 <doublec> copumpkin: right, that's the one copumpkin linked too
 159 2012-03-09 01:23:50 <copumpkin> wow, that's scary then :P
 160 2012-03-09 01:24:23 paraipan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 161 2012-03-09 01:25:28 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: he refuses to use sendmany and is constantly making tiny payments to users, so lots of change is sent back to that address.
 162 2012-03-09 01:25:35 <copumpkin> oh, I see
 163 2012-03-09 01:25:51 <gmaxwell> when I looked a few weeks ago he was responsible for 27% of the recent transactions in the blockchain.
 164 2012-03-09 01:25:54 <BlueMatt> the amount of txes that address has seen is scary
 165 2012-03-09 01:26:38 paraipan_ has joined
 166 2012-03-09 01:26:47 forrestv has quit (Excess Flood)
 167 2012-03-09 01:28:56 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 168 2012-03-09 01:29:11 da2ce7 has joined
 169 2012-03-09 01:29:45 <da2ce7> luke-jr: no, the human interaction / cross-checking is very important.
 170 2012-03-09 01:31:46 <usergfgt> will bitcoin address be replaced by email for example?
 171 2012-03-09 01:32:16 <sipa> maybe
 172 2012-03-09 01:32:27 <sipa> or urls
 173 2012-03-09 01:33:21 <usergfgt> i think its necessary, because i can delete an address and people still send me btcs
 174 2012-03-09 01:33:39 <usergfgt> so i loose it
 175 2012-03-09 01:33:52 <BlueMatt> huh?
 176 2012-03-09 01:33:53 <usergfgt> ok
 177 2012-03-09 01:33:59 <sipa> yes, i just realized it is very wrong to call it address
 178 2012-03-09 01:34:05 <BlueMatt> you shouldnt be able to delete an address
 179 2012-03-09 01:34:21 <sipa> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67431.msg791504#msg791504
 180 2012-03-09 01:34:39 <usergfgt> wil read
 181 2012-03-09 01:41:18 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 182 2012-03-09 01:41:43 fimpfimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 183 2012-03-09 01:43:50 <luke-jr> [20:43:19] <ljrbot> Txn 9027b054caa47738de3c0c465c7fc21fcda99fa859baae5540ed4af189f1b2bd: MtGox 695.63770792 BTC
 184 2012-03-09 01:43:51 <luke-jr> O.o
 185 2012-03-09 01:44:16 <candlepin> your mullet has caught fire
 186 2012-03-09 01:55:08 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: If you think nobody cares, try missing a few payments)
 187 2012-03-09 01:55:47 oPen_syLar has joined
 188 2012-03-09 01:56:06 splatster has joined
 189 2012-03-09 01:58:24 <da2ce7> lol
 190 2012-03-09 02:02:14 sacarlson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 191 2012-03-09 02:04:15 usergfgt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 192 2012-03-09 02:05:02 <da2ce7> so about that bad BIP16 tx, has that delaed anything? or what are we waiting on?
 193 2012-03-09 02:06:05 <da2ce7> I guess we just make all BIP16 tx's older than the changerover date, invalid anyway.
 194 2012-03-09 02:06:24 <sipa> definitely not
 195 2012-03-09 02:06:30 <sipa> that would imply a block chain split
 196 2012-03-09 02:06:50 <sipa> the BIP16 rule is only defined after the changeover date
 197 2012-03-09 02:07:13 [Tycho] has joined
 198 2012-03-09 02:07:48 <da2ce7> so any BIP16 tx included in a block before the changeover date cannot be acted upon anyway.
 199 2012-03-09 02:08:17 <[Tycho]> Hello, bitcoin devs ! :)
 200 2012-03-09 02:08:47 <da2ce7> hello [Tycho]
 201 2012-03-09 02:09:25 <[Tycho]> da2ce7: I don't think so, but there should be some in testnet.
 202 2012-03-09 02:09:53 <[Tycho]> Oh, sorry, misread your phrase.
 203 2012-03-09 02:10:26 <forsetifox> Never seen Tycho here. Heh.
 204 2012-03-09 02:10:33 * [Tycho] was working on delaying BIP16 just minutes ago
 205 2012-03-09 02:10:41 <[Tycho]> *implementing
 206 2012-03-09 02:11:00 <[Tycho]> forsetifox: hello. Who are you ?
 207 2012-03-09 02:11:04 <forsetifox> Hiya. Good.
 208 2012-03-09 02:11:28 <forsetifox> Is that who are you or how are you?
 209 2012-03-09 02:11:35 <[Tycho]> "who".
 210 2012-03-09 02:11:43 <forsetifox> Nobody. I use your pool though.
 211 2012-03-09 02:11:49 <[Tycho]> Cool. Thanks.
 212 2012-03-09 02:11:54 <forsetifox> Thank you. =3
 213 2012-03-09 02:12:25 <[Tycho]> Have you noticed our news ?
 214 2012-03-09 02:12:26 <forsetifox> I've tried several pools and yours is the only one that gives me predicted profits from my meager hashrate.
 215 2012-03-09 02:12:37 <forsetifox> I visited it this morning.
 216 2012-03-09 02:14:10 <forsetifox> That's alot of BTC. ;)
 217 2012-03-09 02:14:14 <[Tycho]> I'm rarely adding any new news, but today I did it.
 218 2012-03-09 02:16:58 <sipa> [Tycho]: how's BIP30 coming up?
 219 2012-03-09 02:18:44 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 220 2012-03-09 02:18:46 <sipa> da2ce7: indeed, it would just be a weird pay-to-hash transaction
 221 2012-03-09 02:18:59 <[Tycho]> sipa: today I finished cleaning my bitcoind and started thinking about BIP16.
 222 2012-03-09 02:19:25 <[Tycho]> sipa: can you give me a link to github that produces the diff patch ?
 223 2012-03-09 02:20:04 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/80f2501c890c226869c4df0a4b7543a656ba7a60.diff
 224 2012-03-09 02:20:07 <luke-jr> forsetifox: you must not have tried Eligius :P
 225 2012-03-09 02:20:13 sacarlson has joined
 226 2012-03-09 02:20:16 <da2ce7> lawl
 227 2012-03-09 02:20:25 <sipa> [Tycho]: from what I understand, that should apply cleanly to your code
 228 2012-03-09 02:20:31 <[Tycho]> sipa: 3.19 ?
 229 2012-03-09 02:21:19 <[Tycho]> Looks small enough to fix manually anyway.
 230 2012-03-09 02:21:21 <sipa> the code is very similar for all 0.3.x and 0.4.x releases
 231 2012-03-09 02:21:24 <[Tycho]> Unlike BIP16.
 232 2012-03-09 02:21:35 <forsetifox> luke-jr: Your pool was the first one I tried. =P
 233 2012-03-09 02:21:47 <sipa> [Tycho]: yes, this solution was specifically chosen because it is so easy to implement
 234 2012-03-09 02:22:12 <luke-jr> forsetifox: well, can't get any more predictable than that…
 235 2012-03-09 02:22:22 <[Tycho]> sipa: I think I'll make it in time.
 236 2012-03-09 02:23:38 <sipa> [Tycho]: if possible, I'd really like it if it were implemented some days in advance
 237 2012-03-09 02:23:56 <sipa> so that we can announce that there is effectively a majority that implements it
 238 2012-03-09 02:24:41 <[Tycho]> sipa: yes, I'm planning to deploy updates a couple of days before 15th so Gavin will see my BIP16 blocks at the Decision Day.
 239 2012-03-09 02:24:54 <sipa> Ok, thanks.
 240 2012-03-09 02:25:46 <sipa> [Tycho]: this link is easier to remember, by the way: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/nooverwritetx_v0.3.19
 241 2012-03-09 02:26:03 <[Tycho]> This link doesn't gives me the diff :)
 242 2012-03-09 02:26:20 <sipa> click on the commit and add .diff to the url
 243 2012-03-09 02:26:25 <[Tycho]> Actually I'm not remembering most links, I'm copying and saving them.
 244 2012-03-09 02:26:39 <sipa> maybe "transparent" was the better word
 245 2012-03-09 02:26:45 <sipa> instead of "easier"
 246 2012-03-09 02:27:37 <[Tycho]> Sadly there is still no any progress on liberation of bitcoin scripts :(
 247 2012-03-09 02:28:16 * [Tycho] just got the meaning of "nooverwritetx" word :)
 248 2012-03-09 02:28:19 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: so you're giving in to BIP 16?
 249 2012-03-09 02:28:28 <sipa> sure there is, a few more standard transaction types are added
 250 2012-03-09 02:28:33 <sipa> that's a first step
 251 2012-03-09 02:28:43 <[Tycho]> sipa: which ones ?
 252 2012-03-09 02:28:58 splatster_ has joined
 253 2012-03-09 02:29:05 <sipa> [Tycho]: N-of-2 and N-of-3, iirc
 254 2012-03-09 02:29:09 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: what else can I do ?
 255 2012-03-09 02:29:26 splatster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 256 2012-03-09 02:29:32 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: become the 4th (to my knowledge) pool to support BIP 17, and help turn the tide :p
 257 2012-03-09 02:29:58 <sipa> luke-jr: please; it's pointless
 258 2012-03-09 02:29:59 <forsetifox> BIP changes how bitcoin transactions go around?
 259 2012-03-09 02:30:12 <luke-jr> sipa: no, if [Tycho] supports BIP 17, then we have a tie
 260 2012-03-09 02:30:14 <[Tycho]> I'm I bit afraid of more actions agains my pool from The Evil One.
 261 2012-03-09 02:30:45 <luke-jr> sipa: and people won't feel than BIP 16 is the "only realistic route" anymore, so hopefully defect to BIP 17 :p
 262 2012-03-09 02:31:20 <sipa> wishful thinking :)
 263 2012-03-09 02:31:34 <[Tycho]> BIP16 would be not that worst if it at least had some opcode.
 264 2012-03-09 02:31:47 <luke-jr> sipa: even without [Tycho], more and more people have been reading the BIPs and expressing support
 265 2012-03-09 02:32:01 <sipa> luke-jr: which people? forum members?
 266 2012-03-09 02:32:10 <luke-jr> sipa: some on the forum, some on IRC
 267 2012-03-09 02:32:25 eoss has joined
 268 2012-03-09 02:32:25 eoss has quit (Changing host)
 269 2012-03-09 02:32:25 eoss has joined
 270 2012-03-09 02:32:38 <[Tycho]> But I'm just tired of this standoff.
 271 2012-03-09 02:32:41 <sipa> i'm sure some of them are easy to convince; and it isn't that hard, few people claim there is much difference in the quality of the proposals
 272 2012-03-09 02:33:01 <luke-jr> sipa: I didn't even try to convince them :p
 273 2012-03-09 02:33:14 <luke-jr> a good number of them just got around to reading the BIPs
 274 2012-03-09 02:33:18 <sipa> my concern is that if no concensus can be reached here, we will never be able to reach a consensus when it is necessary
 275 2012-03-09 02:33:32 <luke-jr> maybe. but no reason that consensus can't be 17
 276 2012-03-09 02:33:35 <[Tycho]> Of course technically I can hold BIP16 for at least 2 months, but it doesn't looks like anyone is going to offer something better.
 277 2012-03-09 02:33:41 <sipa> i am very glad BIP16 is at least uncontroversial
 278 2012-03-09 02:33:43 <sipa> eh
 279 2012-03-09 02:33:44 <sipa> BIP30
 280 2012-03-09 02:34:12 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: BIP17 *is* better. -.-
 281 2012-03-09 02:34:23 <sipa> according to some
 282 2012-03-09 02:34:27 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: the difference is not so dramatic.
 283 2012-03-09 02:34:51 <[Tycho]> I can agree that it's better because there is some opcode instead of magic.
 284 2012-03-09 02:35:00 <sipa> I agree it is nicer; not better
 285 2012-03-09 02:35:03 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 286 2012-03-09 02:35:12 <[Tycho]> But it's still a crutch.
 287 2012-03-09 02:35:14 <luke-jr> I don't expect to see anything better than BIP 17, so if you're just holding out for even better, it isn't going to happen.
 288 2012-03-09 02:35:36 <luke-jr> so if that's the case, go ahead and support 16, and I'll just withdraw 17 :/
 289 2012-03-09 02:35:49 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: it's not a crutch, though.
 290 2012-03-09 02:35:57 <luke-jr> BIP 17 is a natural extension to the existing protocol
 291 2012-03-09 02:36:04 <forsetifox> You can always change later? It's not a hard upgrade is it?
 292 2012-03-09 02:36:15 <luke-jr> forsetifox: no
 293 2012-03-09 02:36:20 <[Tycho]> I'm talking about both things, not the opcode specifically.
 294 2012-03-09 02:36:33 <forsetifox> So.. try out BIP 16 for a while then try BIP 17 for a while.
 295 2012-03-09 02:36:38 <[Tycho]> Looks like The Big Change will never happen.
 296 2012-03-09 02:36:49 <luke-jr> forsetifox: it's irreversible.
 297 2012-03-09 02:36:49 <jrmithdobbs> forsetifox: no lets not
 298 2012-03-09 02:36:57 <forsetifox> Ooh.
 299 2012-03-09 02:37:07 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: BIP 17 *is* just an opcode…
 300 2012-03-09 02:37:18 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: cool.
 301 2012-03-09 02:37:32 <sipa> forsetifox: many people have opinions about either, but most agree that either solution is better than both
 302 2012-03-09 02:37:39 <forsetifox> Heh.
 303 2012-03-09 02:37:49 <[Tycho]> It's very sad that we will never see full-featured scripts working :(
 304 2012-03-09 02:37:54 <sipa> [Tycho]: please
 305 2012-03-09 02:37:58 <sipa> who said that?
 306 2012-03-09 02:38:09 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: …what?
 307 2012-03-09 02:38:21 <[Tycho]> sipa: how it will be possible to enable all the opcodes ?
 308 2012-03-09 02:38:33 <[Tycho]> I mean the math and strings.
 309 2012-03-09 02:38:33 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: Bitcoin 2.0 - block chain fork edition
 310 2012-03-09 02:38:40 <jrmithdobbs> um, luke already will mine such txns
 311 2012-03-09 02:38:43 <sipa> [Tycho]: oh that, no, indeed
 312 2012-03-09 02:38:45 <jrmithdobbs> wont you?
 313 2012-03-09 02:38:50 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: do you really think that it can happen ?
 314 2012-03-09 02:38:55 <[Tycho]> jrmithdobbs: no, he can't.
 315 2012-03-09 02:38:58 <sipa> [Tycho]: but isstandard may be weakened over time
 316 2012-03-09 02:38:59 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: someday.
 317 2012-03-09 02:39:46 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: BIP16 standoff shows something about that. Such a small change is delayed by months. Total fork will be delayed by ages :)
 318 2012-03-09 02:40:05 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: BIP 16 isn't as small as BIP 17 :p
 319 2012-03-09 02:40:23 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: but it still didn't happened yet.
 320 2012-03-09 02:40:44 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: that's because there's problems with it
 321 2012-03-09 02:41:05 <[Tycho]> So I think that big fork will take close to forever.
 322 2012-03-09 02:41:25 <sipa> BIP17 is nicer considering it is more of a return to the meaning scripts had before the parsing was split in two; BIP16 is nicer because it fewer changes to the operational semantics (BIP17 adds extra data flow from the scriptSig to scriptPubKey)
 323 2012-03-09 02:41:29 <sipa> imho
 324 2012-03-09 02:41:50 <sipa> +does
 325 2012-03-09 02:42:02 <forsetifox> Which one is simpler? =P
 326 2012-03-09 02:42:13 <[Tycho]> Sadly both will require out-of-chain communications :(
 327 2012-03-09 02:42:18 <sipa> forsetifox: that's a philosophical question
 328 2012-03-09 02:42:27 <sipa> [Tycho]: i consider that a good thing
 329 2012-03-09 02:42:48 <sipa> the chain should only be used for communicating what is necessary for the world to verify it
 330 2012-03-09 02:42:55 <[Tycho]> I like blockchain :)
 331 2012-03-09 02:43:16 <sipa> sure, your spam fills 27% of it
 332 2012-03-09 02:43:33 <jrmithdobbs> haha
 333 2012-03-09 02:43:39 <[Tycho]> It's not spam, it's legitimate payload.
 334 2012-03-09 02:43:43 <jrmithdobbs> no it's spam
 335 2012-03-09 02:43:52 <[Tycho]> It may be a little bit suboptimal.
 336 2012-03-09 02:43:54 <jrmithdobbs> you need to start using sendtomanys already
 337 2012-03-09 02:44:01 <sipa> it is legitimate, but it is certainly not wanted
 338 2012-03-09 02:44:11 <[Tycho]> Yes, I was thinking about sendmany yesterday.
 339 2012-03-09 02:44:41 <[Tycho]> May be it will be implemented during the planned transition to increased security.
 340 2012-03-09 02:45:14 <candlepin> so a dup tx could overwrite the previous one?
 341 2012-03-09 02:45:15 <candlepin> interesting
 342 2012-03-09 02:45:31 <sipa> candlepin: yes, in the tx index at least
 343 2012-03-09 02:46:09 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: pretty sure your spam wasted an hour and a half of my time earlier
 344 2012-03-09 02:46:18 <[Tycho]> No way !
 345 2012-03-09 02:46:41 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: i had to bump bdb locks up to 1mil to get a reorg to go to fix a borked client that had rc1
 346 2012-03-09 02:46:42 <forsetifox> I'm part of that spam! With my .15 payouts. LOLz
 347 2012-03-09 02:46:47 <[Tycho]> "Spam" is something unwanted, but my payments are the opposite.
 348 2012-03-09 02:47:16 <jrmithdobbs> so yes, really
 349 2012-03-09 02:48:40 <[Tycho]> You can convince me into sendmany, but what will you do if someone will start the real flooding ? Or, in fantasy scenario, people will adopt bitcoin ? :)
 350 2012-03-09 02:49:30 <luke-jr> sipa: BIP 17 just fixes a bug in that respect :P
 351 2012-03-09 02:49:57 <luke-jr> forsetifox: BIP 17 is much simpler, both in practical terms (code) and theory (BIP 17 adds a new opcode; BIP 16 rearranges the whole system)
 352 2012-03-09 02:50:51 <sipa> [Tycho]: then countermeasures will have to be found
 353 2012-03-09 02:51:10 <sipa> [Tycho]: or if it is actual usage, adapt the way people use bitcoin (less full nodes, for example)
 354 2012-03-09 02:51:12 <[Tycho]> Countermeasures against widespread adoption ? :)
 355 2012-03-09 02:51:20 <forsetifox> Re-arranging might be a terrible idea. Making something complex more complex.
 356 2012-03-09 02:52:18 <[Tycho]> I think that full nodes are cool and I like full nodes, but downloading 1 Gb is ALREADY too much for your average housewife.
 357 2012-03-09 02:52:49 <[Tycho]> Unless it takes no more than 1 hour.
 358 2012-03-09 02:53:29 <[Tycho]> I wonder how many potential users just give up before it's done.
 359 2012-03-09 02:53:43 <sipa> forsetifox: BIP16 was still the preferred way among developers, is in my opinion cleaner in terms of semantics (though it requires a more complex standard-checking for compatibility reasons; on the other hand, it has the (used) opportunity to fix a flaw in the sigop counting); all this means indeed more code though
 360 2012-03-09 02:53:55 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 361 2012-03-09 02:54:22 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: There are things other than full nodes— but moreover, once we get things fixed we should be down to under an hour at least on recent computers.
 362 2012-03-09 02:54:56 <gmaxwell> I can sync on 30 minutes if I cheat and run on tmpfs or with fsync bypassed.
 363 2012-03-09 02:55:02 <luke-jr> sipa: developers are split between preferring 16 and 17. the sigop counting change is yet more complication, and proven unnecessary.
 364 2012-03-09 02:55:29 <sipa> luke-jr: it can be worked around by dropping some functionality (CHECKMULTISIG)
 365 2012-03-09 02:55:32 <[Tycho]> Ok. I wonder if Gavin will answer my e-mail today or not... Let's see.
 366 2012-03-09 02:55:38 <sipa> that's something else than unnecessary
 367 2012-03-09 02:56:05 <luke-jr> sipa: the same functionality as CHECKMULTISIG can be reproduced with a script
 368 2012-03-09 02:56:07 <[Tycho]> sipa: since what version did plain multisig become standard ?
 369 2012-03-09 02:56:21 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: BIP 11
 370 2012-03-09 02:56:33 <sipa> luke-jr: yes, i just said it can be worked around
 371 2012-03-09 02:56:44 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: what bitcoin version equals to it ?
 372 2012-03-09 02:56:49 <sipa> [Tycho]: 0.6.0
 373 2012-03-09 02:56:50 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: 0.6
 374 2012-03-09 02:56:54 <[Tycho]> Ok.
 375 2012-03-09 02:57:05 <sipa> [Tycho]: it's part of the changes you saw as BIP16, i suppose
 376 2012-03-09 02:57:09 <luke-jr> BIP 19 is low-sigop multisig
 377 2012-03-09 02:57:20 <[Tycho]> sipa: I saw it even earlier in OP_EVAL too.
 378 2012-03-09 02:57:31 <sipa> oh yes, indeed
 379 2012-03-09 02:57:46 <sipa> well, it's part of neither, just implemented simultaneously
 380 2012-03-09 02:58:23 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: full node also doesn't imply waiting no matter how slow the initial sync is— the only reason a node can't sync in the background while acting as a thinclient/spv-node is because no one has written the software for that yet.
 381 2012-03-09 02:59:02 <gmaxwell> Of course— if it isn't under an hour on typical hardware after the performance is further improved it will be _directly_ as a result of your poor decision making with respect to not using sendmany.
 382 2012-03-09 02:59:35 <[Tycho]> If I'll create unencrypted wallet.dat with 0.6.0 will it be incompatible with older versions ?
 383 2012-03-09 02:59:42 <sipa> [Tycho]: no
 384 2012-03-09 02:59:52 <sipa> eh, yes, it will be incompatible
 385 2012-03-09 02:59:57 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert.png I've made the toolbar vertical. What do you think?
 386 2012-03-09 02:59:57 <sipa> unless you turn of compressed pubkeys
 387 2012-03-09 03:00:16 <sipa> tcatm: i like
 388 2012-03-09 03:00:39 <[Tycho]> sipa: I like the import/export functionality, but it cannot be implemented in 0.3, so I'm thinking about using other versions for that.
 389 2012-03-09 03:00:40 <gmaxwell> tcatm: whats all the empty space for (sorry, I don't use the GUI)
 390 2012-03-09 03:01:08 <sipa> [Tycho]: the first version of key import/export i wrote was for 0.3.20
 391 2012-03-09 03:01:18 <[Tycho]> Also I wonder if it would be possible to import a new key without rescan.
 392 2012-03-09 03:01:34 <sipa> that's often requested and not hard to change
 393 2012-03-09 03:01:55 <[Tycho]> sipa: I saw some patches, but those were created for something else.
 394 2012-03-09 03:02:40 <[Tycho]> I'm thinking about the possibility of re-creating a new wallet for 1VayNert without all the old TXes, but with same key.
 395 2012-03-09 03:02:52 <sipa> that's possible
 396 2012-03-09 03:03:14 <[Tycho]> Bitcoind works much better without creating a new address each time, but still slowing down a bit.
 397 2012-03-09 03:03:51 barmstrong has joined
 398 2012-03-09 03:04:50 <[Tycho]> I also have old backups of that wallet, but not sure if it's clean or not. It it's not, I'll have to create a "double-spending TX" (of course failed) to empty it out.
 399 2012-03-09 03:05:15 Cablesaurus has joined
 400 2012-03-09 03:05:15 Cablesaurus has quit (Changing host)
 401 2012-03-09 03:05:15 Cablesaurus has joined
 402 2012-03-09 03:07:45 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 403 2012-03-09 03:10:57 <sipa> gmaxwell: just thought of an extra recovery hint for HD wallets (buzzword compliant name for hierarchical determinstic wallets): if the internal and external chain are split, you don't need any (or much) allowed gap between internal keys... they are allocated and used at the same time, so there should never be gaps; you also know that inputs of transactions that spend to them are always yours, so you could perform a "gap extension" if such a...
 404 2012-03-09 03:11:03 <sipa> transaction was found with an unknown prevout key
 405 2012-03-09 03:11:18 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 406 2012-03-09 03:11:39 <da2ce7> tcatm: don't like it :( takes up way more space.
 407 2012-03-09 03:12:21 <sipa> da2ce7: horizontal space yes, but that is usually more adundant anyway
 408 2012-03-09 03:13:05 <tcatm> I'm trying to implement something cool like the Design Proposal from that email some devs get today... :)
 409 2012-03-09 03:14:42 <sipa> tcatm: good; i wasn't sure what to answer
 410 2012-03-09 03:15:11 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert2.png let's figure out how to add hover/active/clicked/whatever styles :)
 411 2012-03-09 03:15:20 pickett has joined
 412 2012-03-09 03:15:23 <da2ce7> hmm... on 2nd thought it isn't too bad.
 413 2012-03-09 03:15:47 <nanotube> what design proposal? was that on the list?
 414 2012-03-09 03:16:05 <luke-jr> hmm
 415 2012-03-09 03:16:06 <sipa> nanotube: no, privately to some devs
 416 2012-03-09 03:16:14 <luke-jr> I didn't get a straight answer from [Tycho] re P2SH :/
 417 2012-03-09 03:16:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats an excellent point. There should never be any gaps at all in the internal ones, since even if you restore a backup or shutdown you'll just reuse as soon as you can.
 418 2012-03-09 03:16:32 [Tycho] has joined
 419 2012-03-09 03:16:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: indeed
 420 2012-03-09 03:18:00 minimoose has joined
 421 2012-03-09 03:20:49 <da2ce7> sipa: I have been doing some thinking... the wallet shouldn't be stored in 'user data'  or .bitcoin/  but rarther in "Documents/Bitcoin" or ~/Documents/Bitcoin ... we should have a folder called 'wallet'
 422 2012-03-09 03:21:24 <da2ce7> where users can place files called home.hdwallet
 423 2012-03-09 03:21:35 <da2ce7> or as many .hdwallet files as they want.
 424 2012-03-09 03:21:50 <da2ce7> so they are not in a hidden folder, and and are easy to manage.
 425 2012-03-09 03:22:22 <sipa> da2ce7: once wallets are made independent from the block chain datadir
 426 2012-03-09 03:22:30 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 427 2012-03-09 03:23:14 <gmaxwell> While we continue to use bdb (at least with a single bdb session) any seperation would be a nice disaster recipe.
 428 2012-03-09 03:23:26 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: yes.
 429 2012-03-09 03:23:59 <andytoshi> has testing been done with sqlite or another, stabler, database?
 430 2012-03-09 03:24:06 <da2ce7> however there isn't any reason that the hdwallets are not either a basic binary file, or base64 encoded text file.
 431 2012-03-09 03:24:30 <sipa> da2ce7: i plan to implement them using the current wallet format after some thinking
 432 2012-03-09 03:24:48 <sipa> the move towards independent wallet files, or a different storage format can then happen independently
 433 2012-03-09 03:24:51 <da2ce7> sipa: included the bdb?
 434 2012-03-09 03:24:58 <sipa> yes
 435 2012-03-09 03:25:54 <da2ce7> maybe we should write up a standard base64 encoded text file format that, all the differnt bitcoin apllications can use. (or at least support)
 436 2012-03-09 03:26:48 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: jgarzik was very much opposed to creating our own format for wallets.
 437 2012-03-09 03:27:18 <sipa> da2ce7: the bitcoinj people are already working on a standard wallet format
 438 2012-03-09 03:27:26 <da2ce7> having them in a Documents/Bitcoin/wallet/ location... measn that i can one-day load Multibit, then the next Stashoi... and not care about downgrade or upgrade or changing version or hidden files.
 439 2012-03-09 03:27:54 <sipa> i'm not sure about the approach, many wallets are implemented from a rather different viewpoint
 440 2012-03-09 03:28:12 <sipa> i'd much more like a common interchange format rather than a wallet format itself
 441 2012-03-09 03:29:00 <da2ce7> sipa: that means that private files get stored in differnt places for every differnt application...
 442 2012-03-09 03:29:14 <da2ce7> private files should be sotred in one place only. in a standard format.
 443 2012-03-09 03:29:19 <da2ce7> for evey differnt bitcoin app.
 444 2012-03-09 03:29:34 <sipa> da2ce7: i think it is naive to think you can just move the file from one application to the next
 445 2012-03-09 03:29:52 <da2ce7> sipa: why not... private keys should be stored in ram only.
 446 2012-03-09 03:30:04 <andytoshi> they need to be stored across reboots somehow ;)
 447 2012-03-09 03:30:31 <sipa> one will have accounts, the other will have determinstic keys; one is intended to work as a ledger, the other only functions to keep a balance, ...
 448 2012-03-09 03:30:32 <da2ce7> andytoshi: of coures... that is why you save them to a standard location, in a standard format.
 449 2012-03-09 03:30:32 <andytoshi> i agree with sipa here -- if all bitcoin clients can use the same wallet
 450 2012-03-09 03:30:35 Davincij15 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 451 2012-03-09 03:30:41 <andytoshi> that pretty much forces them to have the same featureset
 452 2012-03-09 03:30:53 Davincij15 has joined
 453 2012-03-09 03:31:14 <da2ce7> sipa: I don't store my Open Office documents, in a differnt location to my KOffice documents, to my AbiWord docs...
 454 2012-03-09 03:31:39 <andytoshi> no, but they -are- different files, and you need importers/exporters to convert between them
 455 2012-03-09 03:31:39 <sipa> but open office, koffice and abiword all implement a remarkably comparable application
 456 2012-03-09 03:31:42 <andytoshi> which break things
 457 2012-03-09 03:31:58 <andytoshi> plus, there's a fair bit of money involved in making office apps work together
 458 2012-03-09 03:32:21 <da2ce7> but they all impment the same Open Document format...
 459 2012-03-09 03:32:35 <andytoshi> no, there is stuff Word can do that nothing else can
 460 2012-03-09 03:32:41 <da2ce7> even if they don't individualy impment ALL the features of the Open Document format.
 461 2012-03-09 03:32:45 zeropointo has joined
 462 2012-03-09 03:32:56 <nanotube> on an unrelated note - i notice the 0.5.2 qt client still recommends a "paytxfee 0.01" setting in the preferences. seems like that's outdated?
 463 2012-03-09 03:33:12 <andytoshi> that's a fair point da2ce7, but i think bitcoin wallets will be more varied
 464 2012-03-09 03:33:14 Clipse has joined
 465 2012-03-09 03:33:23 <andytoshi> as sipa pointed out, what if one has deterministic wallets and the other doesn't?
 466 2012-03-09 03:33:29 <sipa> da2ce7: how are you going to merge the idea that armory has, where each "wallet" is a single determinstic chain, and the satoshi client that has wallets consisting of several accounts, with individually created keys
 467 2012-03-09 03:33:38 <sipa> there is no way to make those applications comparable
 468 2012-03-09 03:34:08 <sipa> and i don't think they should be
 469 2012-03-09 03:35:04 <sipa> (etotheipi has expressed intentions to switch to the key deriviation scheme of hdwallets if they get implemented, so a single chain could be exported/imported between them)
 470 2012-03-09 03:36:03 <da2ce7> sipa: no problem... make an extendable format where armory's format is defined as an 'optional' feature... however, a warning should be showed... "Multibit unfortunaly dosn't yet support the Armory wallet features, some funds may be unavaliabe in this program"
 471 2012-03-09 03:36:24 <andytoshi> that's a maintenance nightmare for everyone involved
 472 2012-03-09 03:36:57 <da2ce7> andytoshi: not at all... if 95 % of the clients support an agreed standard.
 473 2012-03-09 03:37:12 <sipa> they don't agree on *what* a wallet is
 474 2012-03-09 03:37:19 <sipa> how are they going to agree on how to store it?
 475 2012-03-09 03:37:37 <andytoshi> if i go off in my bunker and write BunkerClient that stores keys as tiles with letters on them
 476 2012-03-09 03:37:40 <da2ce7> sipa: a wallet is a place that stores the private keys.
 477 2012-03-09 03:37:41 <andytoshi> like in indiana jones
 478 2012-03-09 03:37:58 <andytoshi> there's no way i can keep up with all the other clients and their crazy new features
 479 2012-03-09 03:38:12 <da2ce7> or stores the information used to generate the private keys.
 480 2012-03-09 03:38:12 <sipa> da2ce7: i disagree; electrum stores no private keys in their wallets afaik
 481 2012-03-09 03:38:18 <andytoshi> but i'd still like to import/export to the satoshi client
 482 2012-03-09 03:38:27 <luke-jr> nanotube: as a miner, I have no objections to 0.01 BTC transaction fees.
 483 2012-03-09 03:38:33 <andytoshi> so it'd be nice if that import/export process was standardized
 484 2012-03-09 03:38:46 <sipa> and saying that a wallet is something that stores private keys is not complete
 485 2012-03-09 03:38:58 <sipa> at least it supports creating transactions
 486 2012-03-09 03:39:07 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 487 2012-03-09 03:39:15 <sipa> which means knowledge about existing outputs to addresses for which you have keys
 488 2012-03-09 03:39:34 JRWR has quit (Quit: BTC Welcome: 19QtYzmENUmqRhvjEvHsz785rqZ5RRcZG4)
 489 2012-03-09 03:39:40 <da2ce7> andytoshi: Open Office dosn't store my documents in .OpenOffice, and only allows me to export them throogh their interface into a 'standard format'
 490 2012-03-09 03:40:09 <sipa> so we agree; try to find consensus about an interchange format, not an own internal format?
 491 2012-03-09 03:40:24 <luke-jr> use html
 492 2012-03-09 03:40:30 <sipa> haha :D
 493 2012-03-09 03:40:33 <andytoshi> :P
 494 2012-03-09 03:41:03 <andytoshi> to that point, we might as well use json, since that's what everything else is
 495 2012-03-09 03:41:09 <luke-jr> noooooooo
 496 2012-03-09 03:41:14 <da2ce7> sipa: I do not agree... I beleve that the the 'saving on hdd' format should be standard, in standard places, with standard wallet management tools. (eg, copy and paste)
 497 2012-03-09 03:41:17 <sipa> andytoshi: that's what my dumpwallet patch uses
 498 2012-03-09 03:41:27 <andytoshi> luke-jr: why nooooo?
 499 2012-03-09 03:41:29 <sipa> da2ce7: good luck with that :)
 500 2012-03-09 03:42:24 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: by "copy and paste" you mean  "trivial accidental corruption because maintaining the referential integrity is non-trivial", right?
 501 2012-03-09 03:43:43 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: it should be the same as a important text document..  the application always saves a tempory file before updating the orignal, and always dose a full check after updating.
 502 2012-03-09 03:43:57 <da2ce7> however it should be extendable so each program can still impment their own specal features, and the other clients, while not supporting the features, should warn and elagantly handel the other 'not supported' features
 503 2012-03-09 03:44:09 <sipa> da2ce7: but text document applications agree on *what* a document is
 504 2012-03-09 03:44:24 <sipa> it is like wanting to make ms word and latex use the same format
 505 2012-03-09 03:44:31 <da2ce7> sure... that is the task for a BIP imho
 506 2012-03-09 03:44:37 <andytoshi> heey, i like that analogy
 507 2012-03-09 03:44:37 <gmaxwell> ...
 508 2012-03-09 03:45:12 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: You're totally failing to understand me here. It's not a text document. It's a database. Some elements refer to other elements. If you copy and paste you will potentially create nonsense.
 509 2012-03-09 03:45:25 <gmaxwell> The handling of this nonsense will likely be undertested in the software
 510 2012-03-09 03:45:39 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: no...copy and paste the _file_ not the text in the document.
 511 2012-03-09 03:46:20 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: and what happens if you truncate some of it?  if you want the whole thing to be copy and pastable .. use the base64 command.
 512 2012-03-09 03:46:22 <da2ce7> we should have wallets named "mum.hdwallet" and "business.hdwallet"
 513 2012-03-09 03:46:42 <da2ce7> in a 'wallet' directory.
 514 2012-03-09 03:46:55 <da2ce7> in the Documents folder of the User.
 515 2012-03-09 03:47:03 <forsetifox> I agree with that.
 516 2012-03-09 03:47:26 <da2ce7> you doubble click on a wallet, and it dosn't load up your text editor... but rarther you default bitcoin client.
 517 2012-03-09 03:47:27 <forsetifox> Don't know why the blockchain, wallet , logs etc are buried in a system directory.
 518 2012-03-09 03:47:48 <andytoshi> %APPDATA% isn't really a system directory..
 519 2012-03-09 03:47:57 <sipa> forsetifox: it's not a system directory; it is your user's application data directory
 520 2012-03-09 03:47:58 <andytoshi> but i think we all agree that wallet.dat should be more visible
 521 2012-03-09 03:48:05 <da2ce7> forsetifox: logs, and blockchain makes sence in a hidden app folder... however the WALLET DOSE NOT.
 522 2012-03-09 03:48:10 <sipa> and that is certainly where the blockchain belongs
 523 2012-03-09 03:48:14 <sipa> i agree the wallet does not
 524 2012-03-09 03:48:14 SomeoneWeirdzzzz is now known as SomeoneWeird
 525 2012-03-09 03:48:19 <andytoshi> the blockchain and stuff are -very- client-specific, and can be lost without serious consequence
 526 2012-03-09 03:48:21 <andytoshi> ditto for the logs
 527 2012-03-09 03:49:28 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 530 2012-03-09 03:49:45 <andytoshi> da2ce7: you are assuming that all clients are fundamentally the same
 531 2012-03-09 03:50:43 <andytoshi> suppose, for example, someone wrote a "corporate wallet", where three execs had to sign every transaction
 532 2012-03-09 03:50:51 <andytoshi> then everyone has copies of the public keys
 533 2012-03-09 03:51:00 <andytoshi> but only personal pieces of the private ones
 534 2012-03-09 03:51:05 <da2ce7> andytoshi: no... I assume that there are some standard features between every client, such as managmenet of private keys of some sort.
 535 2012-03-09 03:51:15 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 536 2012-03-09 03:51:25 <sipa> da2ce7: i believe that common functionality will be very small
 537 2012-03-09 03:51:30 <da2ce7> andytoshi: and that would be handeld by a specal 'optional' feature in the wallet.
 538 2012-03-09 03:51:42 <andytoshi> alternately, suppose a client stored the keys partially in the TPM chip of the system
 539 2012-03-09 03:51:53 <andytoshi> these are just off the top of my head
 540 2012-03-09 03:52:16 <andytoshi> and to implement them as "features" that are optional, we'd basically need multiple whole new wallet formats
 541 2012-03-09 03:52:28 <sipa> agree
 542 2012-03-09 03:52:32 <sipa> anyway; /me -> bed
 543 2012-03-09 03:52:52 <da2ce7> yes... then the other private data should be stored in the bitcoin wallet folder so other apps can make use of the TPM chip also, if they choose to impment that part of the optional requirements also.
 544 2012-03-09 03:53:29 <andytoshi> that's crazy, we'd need knowledge of all TPM chips and all similar functionality in a -wallet- format!
 545 2012-03-09 03:53:56 <andytoshi> what if it's not a tpm chip, but a biometric of some sort?
 546 2012-03-09 03:54:44 <andytoshi> what if it's a usb dongle, or a darknet hook, or a roomba dance?
 547 2012-03-09 03:54:46 <da2ce7> andytoshi: no it ain't crazy at all... as APP XYZ will use a part of the wallet file called "APP XYZ"... unless annother app knows what it is and wants to use it... it will just skip right over it.
 548 2012-03-09 03:55:08 <andytoshi> then we aren't talking about a wallet format, but a "generic data" format
 549 2012-03-09 03:55:13 <andytoshi> along the lines of xml, json, yaml
 550 2012-03-09 03:55:21 <sipa> skip? or warn the user that data will be lost?
 551 2012-03-09 03:55:34 <nanotube> luke-jr: haha
 552 2012-03-09 03:55:42 <da2ce7> skip and warn that some features are unsupported.
 553 2012-03-09 03:55:52 <sipa> dream on :)
 554 2012-03-09 03:55:58 <sipa> that's what I'm going to do now
 555 2012-03-09 03:55:59 <sipa> cya
 556 2012-03-09 03:56:05 <andytoshi> alright, gnight
 557 2012-03-09 03:56:16 <andytoshi> da2ce7: then we've lost the benefit of standardization
 558 2012-03-09 03:56:28 Joric has joined
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 561 2012-03-09 03:57:04 <andytoshi> you use office docs as an example, but suppose our main use case was the viewing of documents?
 562 2012-03-09 03:57:17 <andytoshi> then word processors, LaTeX, PDF, and image formats would all achieve that
 563 2012-03-09 03:57:39 <andytoshi> and which one you used, would depend on things completely unrelated to "viewing documents"
 564 2012-03-09 03:57:46 <da2ce7> andytoshi: no we don't... don't you see... that while clients 'can skip and warn'  they also can make use of it... if they support that particualr extention.
 565 2012-03-09 03:57:49 <andytoshi> similarly, the main use case of wallets is "bitcoin transactions"
 566 2012-03-09 03:57:50 dvide has quit ()
 567 2012-03-09 03:58:24 <da2ce7> the main beniift of the standadization is that now there IS a standard, if apps want to choose to impment it.  or not.
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 570 2012-03-09 03:59:01 <andytoshi> they wouldn't choose to, if it had the scope of "typesetting language OR word processor language OR compressed image data OR portable document format"
 571 2012-03-09 03:59:13 <andytoshi> 0% of people wold
 572 2012-03-09 03:59:15 <da2ce7> so maybe super perculear business wallet app... features will not be impmented by anyone else... however the baseic private key import featues may be impment by all sorts of apps.
 573 2012-03-09 03:59:42 <andytoshi> yes, and we are back to sipa's argument - standardize on a method of exchanging keypairs
 574 2012-03-09 03:59:44 <andytoshi> and not much else
 575 2012-03-09 04:00:04 <andytoshi> because those, in the end, are all the bitcoin protocal knows about
 576 2012-03-09 04:00:13 <luke-jr> oh ok
 577 2012-03-09 04:00:15 <andytoshi> and all we are guaranteed, clients would have to implement
 578 2012-03-09 04:00:22 <da2ce7> andytoshi: no... we are talking about an extendable format for storing the privtae data, where apps can make use of it in a 'best-effort way'
 579 2012-03-09 04:00:28 <luke-jr> then obviously the answer must be UTF-8
 580 2012-03-09 04:04:05 <da2ce7> it is no differnt to how KOffice make a 'best effort' on the Open Document format... while there are things that only Open Office supports, they all save in the same extendable data format.
 581 2012-03-09 04:04:30 <andytoshi> yes, it is very different
 582 2012-03-09 04:04:40 <andytoshi> and where word processors differ, it is very frustrating
 583 2012-03-09 04:04:41 <da2ce7> how?
 584 2012-03-09 04:04:53 <andytoshi> when i do cool stuff in excel, and openoffice bricks it
 585 2012-03-09 04:05:00 <andytoshi> i can't imagine if there was money involved
 586 2012-03-09 04:05:19 <andytoshi> i have explained to you how it is different, as has sipa
 587 2012-03-09 04:05:58 <da2ce7> andytoshi: sure... that is why the standard must define how 'unsupported featues' are handeld... but not limit what _can_be_ defined...
 588 2012-03-09 04:06:14 <da2ce7> aka... no losses, just warnings.
 589 2012-03-09 04:07:05 <da2ce7> if multibit dosn't suport th TPM, then dispay a warning, but still make use of the standard private keys. and hd wallet features.
 590 2012-03-09 04:07:17 <andytoshi> alright, suppose i write a roomba-dance client
 591 2012-03-09 04:07:39 <andytoshi> i send transactions to the roomba, it dances out a signed transaction, which a webcam translates into something the network can read
 592 2012-03-09 04:07:47 <andytoshi> how would your imagined format let me do that?
 593 2012-03-09 04:08:37 <k9quaint> nobody encodes transactions in roomba via webcam anymore
 594 2012-03-09 04:08:40 <k9quaint> upgrade your shit
 595 2012-03-09 04:08:57 <andytoshi> maybe i'm a mountain hermit running openbsd
 596 2012-03-09 04:09:04 <andytoshi> on a vax
 597 2012-03-09 04:09:09 <k9quaint> then you are thrice damned!
 598 2012-03-09 04:09:21 <da2ce7> well do you need to store any private data?  If so, you will make a "RoombaClient" section in one of the wallet files, and store your unique data there... I doubt any other client will bother supporting that section tho.
 599 2012-03-09 04:09:55 <andytoshi> da2ce7: then does the standard need to have a "RoombaClient" section, or am i required to ignore the standard?
 600 2012-03-09 04:10:00 <andytoshi> either way, the standard sucks
 601 2012-03-09 04:10:36 <da2ce7> andytoshi: no anyone is free to make any named section in the wallet...
 602 2012-03-09 04:10:43 <da2ce7> unless that name is defined in the standard.
 603 2012-03-09 04:10:47 <da2ce7> or reseverd.
 604 2012-03-09 04:10:48 <andytoshi> so it's just so underspecified as to be useless
 605 2012-03-09 04:11:24 <da2ce7> no... as the 'standard private key stoarge' section is well defined and supported by many clients.
 606 2012-03-09 04:11:25 <andytoshi> you're essentially advocating a "generic data storage" format
 607 2012-03-09 04:11:51 <andytoshi> da2ce7: you mean, every client who stores pregenerated private keys supports it
 608 2012-03-09 04:11:52 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
 609 2012-03-09 04:11:58 <andytoshi> and only those clients
 610 2012-03-09 04:16:38 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 612 2012-03-09 04:17:11 <da2ce7> hello... sorry stupid mobile conenction.
 613 2012-03-09 04:19:58 <da2ce7> the clients that support the pregenerated private key usage, can choose the implment that standard-named section of wallet file format.
 614 2012-03-09 04:32:48 <andytoshi> i think, better to have -all- clients support export of private keys, and those who store them, also support import
 615 2012-03-09 04:32:52 RobinPKR_ has joined
 616 2012-03-09 04:33:01 <andytoshi> then arguably we could just use the satoshi client as a "standard" wallet.dat
 617 2012-03-09 04:33:36 <andytoshi> then if you want to transfer wallets, you could install the satoshi client, and use just it as an importer/exporter
 618 2012-03-09 04:33:49 <andytoshi> i appreciate you want "double click and it chooses your favorite client"
 619 2012-03-09 04:34:08 <andytoshi> but that's simply not practical except for clients who closely match the satoshi featureset
 620 2012-03-09 04:34:17 <andytoshi> and they could just use the satoshi wallet.dat as their standard
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 623 2012-03-09 04:36:34 <da2ce7> andytoshi: the satoshi wallet.dat makes for a very bad format... it is a bdb, contains unnessary information, is not easly extendable... etc.
 624 2012-03-09 04:37:24 <da2ce7> also you shoudn't need to export data to use a differnt application... that means if I want to restore a backup to a diffent client, I need to first install the orignal client, export, then inport into the new one.
 625 2012-03-09 04:38:02 <da2ce7> that is lots of work that could be saved just by supporting an extendable wallet, that where common features can be supported by many differnt clients.
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 629 2012-03-09 04:39:56 <da2ce7> the "satoshi featureset" btw, is just a list of private keys.... not that hard for other clients to support.
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 635 2012-03-09 05:15:17 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: No, that _isn't_ the satoshi fatureset.
 636 2012-03-09 05:15:51 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: well it includes refrences to transactions, and what one is uesd also. and naming.
 637 2012-03-09 05:16:04 <da2ce7> and so that addresses can be linked to a human readable name.
 638 2012-03-09 05:16:30 <da2ce7> but the 'private data' part is only a list of private keys.
 639 2012-03-09 05:16:56 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: You appear to have an awful high ratio of opinion to information. The reference client includes an accounts feature that tracks many seperate balances, a pool of future address, change-designated addresses which are hidden, and multiple kinds of keys.
 640 2012-03-09 05:17:19 <gmaxwell> Not to mention wallet encryption, and the new p2sh stuff.
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 642 2012-03-09 05:18:09 <nanotube> and, apparently, some config that should really be in .conf but isn't. :)
 643 2012-03-09 05:18:18 <gmaxwell> nanotube: hah, indeed.
 644 2012-03-09 05:18:27 <luke-jr> wasn't*
 645 2012-03-09 05:18:45 <gmaxwell> I'm sure if I think for a bit I'll come up with some more.
 646 2012-03-09 05:18:49 <da2ce7> hmm... I hadn't heard abou the other kind of keys... but otherwise it is just a list of private keys (either encypted or unencypted).
 647 2012-03-09 05:19:35 <gmaxwell> No, it's not just a list of private keys.
 648 2012-03-09 05:19:40 <da2ce7> for p2sh we will need to store public keys also.
 649 2012-03-09 05:20:58 * da2ce7 is working on a proposal that will seperate the bitcoin private data, and the address book.
 650 2012-03-09 05:21:29 <da2ce7> and in the address book, we can make a key as, 'unused, change, or used'
 651 2012-03-09 05:23:12 <gmaxwell> I like how you totally ignored my mention of accounts because it's not something you know about.
 652 2012-03-09 05:24:29 <da2ce7> accounts is a features that allows balances of bitcoins to be maintined for difernt names... from my understanding it isn't tied to a particaular private key.
 653 2012-03-09 05:24:54 <da2ce7> it can be used in accounting, however there is no gui support for it atm.
 654 2012-03-09 05:25:06 <gmaxwell> I recommend you actually learn more about the system before you work on proposals for it.
 655 2012-03-09 05:25:43 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: I recomend you stop being a complete dick, I beleve I know bitcoin quite well by now.
 656 2012-03-09 05:26:03 <gmaxwell> You're demonstrating that you don't.
 657 2012-03-09 05:26:21 <gmaxwell> And you've been doing so for about two hours now.
 658 2012-03-09 05:27:02 <gmaxwell> and yes, accounts are related to particular keys/addresses.
 659 2012-03-09 05:27:19 <da2ce7> ah... well then my memory decevies me.
 660 2012-03-09 05:28:34 <gmaxwell> Had you spent the last two hours looking at the system instead of blathering here about ideas which you seemingly expect other people to implement, perhaps your memory would have been fresher.
 661 2012-03-09 05:28:49 <gmaxwell> And on that note, goodnight.
 662 2012-03-09 05:28:56 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 663 2012-03-09 05:29:41 <da2ce7> well sleep well.
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 667 2012-03-09 05:36:55 <da2ce7> ah yes... accounts are for incoming coins... not outgoing.
 668 2012-03-09 05:38:37 <Raccoon> Is there a config for specifying the path to a wallet without altering the path to block data?  or visa versa?
 669 2012-03-09 05:39:53 <Raccoon> In the scenario that someone has a portable install of bitcoin that they use between multiple machines that utilize bitcoin, and they wish to only store their wallet info on the USB but not block data
 670 2012-03-09 05:40:19 <Raccoon> since block data is not only large, but also induces wear for SSD.
 671 2012-03-09 05:40:37 <andytoshi> i believe the answer is no
 672 2012-03-09 05:40:45 <andytoshi> i'm scanning through the source to make sure..
 673 2012-03-09 05:40:49 <andytoshi> but this has come up before
 674 2012-03-09 05:40:53 <Raccoon> ok
 675 2012-03-09 05:41:40 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: the block data is append only, though the index is probably wear inducing.  That sounds like an application for a thin client like electrum.
 676 2012-03-09 05:41:55 <Raccoon> i'd like to propose more granular path configs, as well as a "switch wallet" option on the client interface
 677 2012-03-09 05:43:16 <Raccoon> and a change in the order of bitcoin.conf file searching.  always looking for a bitcoin.conf in the same location as the compiled bitcoin binary, before moving onto user folders
 678 2012-03-09 05:43:30 <Raccoon> since that follows standard convention for most other apps.
 679 2012-03-09 05:43:39 <Raccoon> and makes bitcoin more portable
 680 2012-03-09 05:45:09 <andytoshi> that sounds simple enough that you could write a patch for it
 681 2012-03-09 05:45:21 <andytoshi> which gives you more chance of someone paying attention to your proposal
 682 2012-03-09 05:45:53 <andytoshi> the path config business, would require a change to the command-line options, and for that you'd need a consensus
 683 2012-03-09 05:46:02 <Raccoon> only other thought on the subject is that '\' and '/' be automatically converted for the OS, and that '~/' automatically resolves to '%appdata%\' in windows.
 684 2012-03-09 05:46:04 <andytoshi> (i am not a dev, but that is how things work on projects where i -am- a dev)
 685 2012-03-09 05:47:16 <Raccoon> andytoshi: I by no means wish to interrupt the way things are done, but since I'm not at all familiar with the code, I hope that suggestions are welcomed by those who are.
 686 2012-03-09 05:47:26 <andytoshi> but fwiw, i second your request -- i would like to have wallet.dat on a sshfs
 687 2012-03-09 05:47:30 <andytoshi> and the blockchain local
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 692 2012-03-09 05:54:16 <Raccoon> andytoshi: sshfs is a mounted network drive right?
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 694 2012-03-09 05:54:38 <andytoshi> yes, that's right
 695 2012-03-09 05:54:47 <Raccoon> ok
 696 2012-03-09 05:54:48 <andytoshi> it uses SSH to encrypt all i/o
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 711 2012-03-09 06:13:55 <ageis> http://ageispolis.net/test/code.jpg
 712 2012-03-09 06:14:16 <andytoshi> :(
 713 2012-03-09 06:14:20 <andytoshi> :) i mean
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 724 2012-03-09 06:33:38 <pentarh>  p2pool generated block has transaction with inputs < outputs http://blockexplorer.com/tx/ad2ab11753a96e2ca9e161de2766ed93ae6f1d26f819c53449e35569fe13c824
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 726 2012-03-09 06:34:36 <gmaxwell> ...
 727 2012-03-09 06:34:51 <gmaxwell> pentarh: this is the generated transaction. It includes fees.
 728 2012-03-09 06:35:12 <gmaxwell> Note at the top, input "50 + fees"
 729 2012-03-09 06:35:38 <pentarh> ah, yeah )
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 733 2012-03-09 06:48:00 <Raccoon> ageis: whatever's on that monitor is way too high resolution for that era. :p
 734 2012-03-09 06:48:01 libcoin1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 735 2012-03-09 06:48:22 <Raccoon> i don't think that's even 4 color capable
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 738 2012-03-09 06:49:29 <Raccoon> dig the wood paneling though
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 771 2012-03-09 08:34:04 <neofutur> fyi http://bitcoin.gw.gd
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 789 2012-03-09 09:12:05 <opr> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=66790.0
 790 2012-03-09 09:12:08 <opr> mods on that forum are useless
 791 2012-03-09 09:12:41 <opr> please reply
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 811 2012-03-09 10:11:56 <sturles> Running latest git bitcoind, I get the following error today:
 812 2012-03-09 10:11:58 <sturles> "errors" : "WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
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 815 2012-03-09 10:19:38 <sturles> I get a lot of errors like this as well:
 816 2012-03-09 10:19:38 <sturles> EXCEPTION: 11DbException
 817 2012-03-09 10:19:38 <sturles> Db::put: Cannot allocate memory
 818 2012-03-09 10:19:38 <sturles> bitcoin in ProcessMessage()
 819 2012-03-09 10:20:22 fimpfimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 820 2012-03-09 10:20:29 <edcba> maybe you lack memory ?
 821 2012-03-09 10:23:24 <sturles> 2 GiB + 10 GiB swap.
 822 2012-03-09 10:23:38 <sturles> All swap free.
 823 2012-03-09 10:23:57 <sturles> 64bit system.
 824 2012-03-09 10:39:31 <sturles> Restarted bitcoind on two nodes half an hour ago.  One of them is now getting in sync with the network again.  The other one has supiciously few connections.  Only 10 with two incoming.  Normal is about 100 shortly after starting, almost all incoming.
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 830 2012-03-09 10:54:14 <Raccoon> gah.  i need access to big numbers.
 831 2012-03-09 10:54:38 <Raccoon> what is 4^52 in base2
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 833 2012-03-09 11:00:26 <edcba> 2^104
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 837 2012-03-09 11:13:38 <sturles> I restarted the synced node with addnode=the other node, but the other node is still stuck at block 170061 and the same error.  The error is gone from the first node.
 838 2012-03-09 11:18:11 <sturles> Darnit!  I have another node stuck at block 170061 as well.  This one has no error message and runs an earlier version from git > 0.5.2.
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 846 2012-03-09 11:35:27 <neofutur> a good question on http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3122/bitcoind-statstics/3124#3124
 847 2012-03-09 11:35:53 <neofutur> am I right to say the bitcoin client cant know the latest block number until it have reached it ?
 848 2012-03-09 11:36:02 <neofutur> so its impossible to tell the user
 849 2012-03-09 11:36:15 <neofutur> you have reached block XXX / YYYY
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 852 2012-03-09 11:39:25 <sturles> It can't know for sure until all are verified, but it can report what other clients claim they have.  A malicious client can report arbitrary numbers to your client, so the bitcoin client can not be sure until the last block is verified.
 853 2012-03-09 11:40:05 <sturles> It can also make a guesstimate based on the current time and the age of the last verified block.
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 855 2012-03-09 11:44:24 <neofutur> thanks
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 857 2012-03-09 11:44:50 <neofutur> I ll ad this to my answer (  or you prefer to do it yourself if you use stackexchange ?)
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 861 2012-03-09 12:01:15 <sturles> Hmm.  There was a blockchain split at block 170059 resulting in three different versions of block 170061.  Could this be the source of my problems?  The node stuck at 170059 synced fairly quickly after a restart.  I finally managed the third node to start synching again.  The second node is still stuck on a probably orphaned block 170061.
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 863 2012-03-09 12:06:33 <neofutur> I suppose the only way to have this "guesstimate" would be to modify the client code ? nothing in the API ?
 864 2012-03-09 12:13:00 <sturles> Not that I know of.  You may look for messages like "version message: version 32300, blocks=170346" in debug.log to check where your connected nodes were when you connected to them.  It's the closest I know of, but I don't know everything about the API.
 865 2012-03-09 12:15:42 <sturles> Btw, a few hosts keep connecting with the following:
 866 2012-03-09 12:15:43 <sturles> version message: version 60000, blocks=140700
 867 2012-03-09 12:17:03 <superjames> getmemorypool  => "time" : timestamp appropriate for next block          would that be it?
 868 2012-03-09 12:17:27 <sturles> No.
 869 2012-03-09 12:18:10 <superjames> damn
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 879 2012-03-09 12:33:54 <sturles> The split from 170059 is interesting.  The orphaned chain made it to three blocks and contained about 400 more transactions than the surviving chain.
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 883 2012-03-09 12:46:58 <sturles> Doh!  jrmithdobbs had the solution to my problem yesterday!  Same error message: "Lock table is out of available lock entries"
 884 2012-03-09 12:48:01 <sturles> Trying the patch..
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 891 2012-03-09 13:10:07 <neofutur> I could not find a rss feed annoucing new versions of bitcoind
 892 2012-03-09 13:10:37 <neofutur> neither on bitcoin.org not on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 893 2012-03-09 13:11:13 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
 894 2012-03-09 13:11:13 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":4.9499,"low":4.809,"avg":4.898139312,"vwap":4.905515502,"vol":37973,"last_all":4.91957,"last_local":4.91957,"last":4.91957,"buy":4.91957,"sell":4.91958}}
 895 2012-03-09 13:13:00 <neofutur> a rss feed on bitcoin.org would be cool
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 898 2012-03-09 13:24:51 <sturles> Patch worked!
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 978 2012-03-09 17:18:54 [Tycho] has joined
 979 2012-03-09 17:19:37 <[Tycho]> Hello, devs.
 980 2012-03-09 17:21:04 zeropointo has joined
 981 2012-03-09 17:21:45 <sipa> hi [Tycho]
 982 2012-03-09 17:21:53 <[Tycho]> Hello, sipa
 983 2012-03-09 17:22:06 <BlueMatt> hi [Tycho]
 984 2012-03-09 17:23:47 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: whats your status in deploying bip16?
 985 2012-03-09 17:25:16 leovingi has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 986 2012-03-09 17:25:40 <sipa> Inaba of eclipsemc has a weird issue eith COINBASE_FLAGS
 987 2012-03-09 17:26:31 BeTep has quit ()
 988 2012-03-09 17:26:31 <sipa> he's using git head of a few days ago, and tried to tweak the coinbase flags to add something himself, just a constant string
 989 2012-03-09 17:26:34 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 990 2012-03-09 17:26:59 <sipa> but the produced blocks seem to.contain garbage
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 994 2012-03-09 17:27:40 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: I successfully backported it today.
 995 2012-03-09 17:27:53 <sipa> \o/
 996 2012-03-09 17:28:02 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: nice! so when does it go online?
 997 2012-03-09 17:28:07 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 998 2012-03-09 17:28:19 <[Tycho]> Have a couple of questions before deploying it.
 999 2012-03-09 17:28:24 <sipa> shoot
1000 2012-03-09 17:28:42 Davincij has quit (Client Quit)
1001 2012-03-09 17:29:02 <[Tycho]> What's the point of removing  WalletUpdateSpent(txin.prevout); there ?
1002 2012-03-09 17:29:03 Davincij15 has joined
1003 2012-03-09 17:29:22 <[Tycho]> May be its replaced by something. If yes - where ?\
1004 2012-03-09 17:29:31 <sipa> where exactly?
1005 2012-03-09 17:29:37 <sipa> in script?
1006 2012-03-09 17:29:48 <[Tycho]> In VerifySignature(const CTransaction& txFrom, const CTransaction& txTo, unsigned int nIn, bool fValidatePayToScriptHash, int nHashType)
1007 2012-03-09 17:29:58 <sipa> it absolutely does not belong there
1008 2012-03-09 17:30:03 * BlueMatt -> dinner
1009 2012-03-09 17:30:30 <sipa> and it was hard to keep doing it that way when CWallet was introduced
1010 2012-03-09 17:30:36 <[Tycho]> How this functionality is performed now
1011 2012-03-09 17:30:38 <[Tycho]> ?
1012 2012-03-09 17:31:25 weather is now known as BeTep
1013 2012-03-09 17:32:00 <sipa> let's see
1014 2012-03-09 17:32:09 <sipa> you mean in current master?
1015 2012-03-09 17:32:15 draco49 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1016 2012-03-09 17:32:50 <[Tycho]> No, after BIP16 patch
1017 2012-03-09 17:33:34 <sipa> you'll have to ask gavin
1018 2012-03-09 17:34:31 <[Tycho]> His patch does this:
1019 2012-03-09 17:34:34 <[Tycho]> -    // Anytime a signature is successfully verified, it's proof the outpoint is spent,
1020 2012-03-09 17:34:34 <[Tycho]> -    // so lets update the wallet spent flag if it doesn't know due to wallet.dat being
1021 2012-03-09 17:34:34 <[Tycho]> -    // restored from backup or the user making copies of wallet.dat.
1022 2012-03-09 17:34:36 <[Tycho]> -    WalletUpdateSpent(txin.prevout);
1023 2012-03-09 17:35:22 <sipa> where is the patch?
1024 2012-03-09 17:35:29 <[Tycho]> I don
1025 2012-03-09 17:35:39 <[Tycho]> 't know, he sent it by mail
1026 2012-03-09 17:35:44 <sipa> ok
1027 2012-03-09 17:35:56 <[Tycho]> I can forward it to you
1028 2012-03-09 17:36:27 <sipa> sure
1029 2012-03-09 17:37:25 <[Tycho]> Mail sent
1030 2012-03-09 17:39:55 t7 has joined
1031 2012-03-09 17:40:10 <t7> why is main.cpp so many LOC ?
1032 2012-03-09 17:40:38 darsk1ez has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1033 2012-03-09 17:42:26 <sipa> t7: satoshi didn't write very encapsulated code :)
1034 2012-03-09 17:42:39 <sipa> a lot was already moved to separate files
1035 2012-03-09 17:42:58 <t7> are there any other clients (that are reasonably complete) ?
1036 2012-03-09 17:43:10 PK has joined
1037 2012-03-09 17:43:12 draco49 has joined
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1039 2012-03-09 17:43:20 <sipa> libcoin is a heavily-refactored version of the satoshi code
1040 2012-03-09 17:43:31 <sipa> libbitcoin is not complete, last i heard
1041 2012-03-09 17:44:02 <sipa> bitcoinj is complete but only does simplified verification
1042 2012-03-09 17:44:02 <t7> how about an implementation in a language without ptr arithmetic?
1043 2012-03-09 17:44:10 <t7> ah java?
1044 2012-03-09 17:44:13 <TD> i heard the word, bitcoinj
1045 2012-03-09 17:44:14 <sipa> yes
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1047 2012-03-09 17:45:16 <t7> ok one last things, is the constant growth of the blockchain going to be an issue at some point?
1048 2012-03-09 17:45:51 <TD> probably not
1049 2012-03-09 17:45:57 <TD> it requires some smart engineering on the consumer clients
1050 2012-03-09 17:46:02 <TD> which we're not quite done with yet
1051 2012-03-09 17:46:07 <TD> in the next few months, i hope (for bitcoinj)
1052 2012-03-09 17:46:54 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1053 2012-03-09 17:48:05 <sipa> [Tycho]: i have to go, i'll have a look at it later
1054 2012-03-09 17:48:18 <[Tycho]> sipa: did you received it ?
1055 2012-03-09 17:48:23 <sipa> yes
1056 2012-03-09 17:48:24 <[Tycho]> Ok.
1057 2012-03-09 17:48:34 <[Tycho]> At this moment it
1058 2012-03-09 17:48:41 <[Tycho]> s the last questiong
1059 2012-03-09 17:48:54 <sipa> it should not be a problem, unless you need to restore a wallet backup
1060 2012-03-09 17:49:18 <sipa> it seems like the corresponding adding of that call was not backported
1061 2012-03-09 17:49:32 <sipa> but i need to look at it closer
1062 2012-03-09 17:49:45 <[Tycho]> May be I'll have to replace wallet.dat and don't know what will happen.
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1066 2012-03-09 18:19:38 <mcorlett> Is it possible to create a generation transaction with thousands of tiny single-satoshi outputs in order to spam the network?
1067 2012-03-09 18:25:46 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1068 2012-03-09 18:27:50 <JFK911> yes
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1076 2012-03-09 18:49:07 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: ping
1077 2012-03-09 18:49:11 <[Tycho]> pong
1078 2012-03-09 18:49:17 <denisx> peng
1079 2012-03-09 18:50:09 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I didn't get a clear answer as to BIP 16 the other day; are you deploying it for sure, or still uncertain?
1080 2012-03-09 18:51:11 <[Tycho]> Currently I'm working on the support of BIP16, but didn't deploy it yet. May be I'll start making BIP16 blocks before 15.03
1081 2012-03-09 18:51:30 <[Tycho]> I'm a bit concerned about the fragile majority.
1082 2012-03-09 18:51:33 <gavinandresen> You'll inconvenience a lot of people if you don't.....
1083 2012-03-09 18:52:04 <[Tycho]> If just one pool will disappear somehow, the 51%+ of BIP16 will be lost.
1084 2012-03-09 18:52:29 barmstrong has joined
1085 2012-03-09 18:52:46 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: the remaining miners will have a VERY strong incentive to upgrade once we're past 51%
1086 2012-03-09 18:53:05 <gavinandresen> If they don't, they risk hashing on an invalid chain.
1087 2012-03-09 18:53:08 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: are you sure you can reach them ?
1088 2012-03-09 18:53:18 <[eval]> the majority won't be fragile after consensus is achieved, otherwise the minority will produce orphaned blocks like what eclipsemc/ozcoin accidentally did
1089 2012-03-09 18:53:48 <[Tycho]> BTW, I wonder who is the new MM from Spain
1090 2012-03-09 18:54:27 <Graet> [eval], ?
1091 2012-03-09 18:54:28 <[Tycho]> [eval]: I think I have just one problem left to solve before BIP16 will be available to me.
1092 2012-03-09 18:54:48 paraipan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1093 2012-03-09 18:55:54 * [Tycho] just added BIP30 support
1094 2012-03-09 18:56:15 <upb> what is BIP?
1095 2012-03-09 18:57:07 paraipan_ has joined
1096 2012-03-09 18:57:46 <[Tycho]> Graet: don't forget to deploy BIP30 before 15.03
1097 2012-03-09 18:58:00 <Graet> we are [Tycho] :)
1098 2012-03-09 18:58:05 <Graet> ty :)
1099 2012-03-09 18:59:01 <forsetifox> BIP30 is ok with BIP16?
1100 2012-03-09 18:59:08 <forsetifox> Or was that a joke?
1101 2012-03-09 18:59:28 <[Tycho]> BIP30 is almost twice as cool as BIP16
1102 2012-03-09 18:59:52 <Graet> ^^
1103 2012-03-09 19:02:22 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I just need to know if it's inevitable that Deepbit will support BIP 16. If so, I might as well withdraw BIP 17
1104 2012-03-09 19:03:04 occulta has joined
1105 2012-03-09 19:03:29 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: sorry, but I think that its time to resolve this standoff.
1106 2012-03-09 19:03:58 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: So "yes, I am deploying BIP 16 on Deepbit for sure, it's just a question of when"?
1107 2012-03-09 19:04:11 <[Tycho]> BIP17 is possibly better, but the enemy has Gavin's support, so almost nothing can be done.
1108 2012-03-09 19:04:53 <luke-jr> I'm not trying to argue what you should do. I'm sure I've done that before. I just want to know what your decision is when you make it.
1109 2012-03-09 19:04:54 <forsetifox> Who is the "enemy" Tycho?
1110 2012-03-09 19:04:59 <luke-jr> forsetifox: BIP 16
1111 2012-03-09 19:05:30 userttu has joined
1112 2012-03-09 19:06:07 <[Tycho]> I wasn't participating in the voting, but BIP16 is still winning (on the pie chart)
1113 2012-03-09 19:06:49 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: the pie chart is erroneous and doesn't even show BIP 17
1114 2012-03-09 19:07:07 <luke-jr> BIP16: 37% support vs 4% oppose
1115 2012-03-09 19:07:09 <luke-jr> BIP17:  4% support vs 0% oppose
1116 2012-03-09 19:07:23 <luke-jr> as of Tuesday
1117 2012-03-09 19:08:09 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I am interpreting your responses as "I am holding back on making a decision just yet"; if I should interpret it otherwise, please be more clear.
1118 2012-03-09 19:08:13 <[Tycho]> So 4% of oppose equals to the support of BIP17 ? Then it shows it correctly.
1119 2012-03-09 19:08:14 <Graet> how does that maths work i wonder?
1120 2012-03-09 19:08:31 <luke-jr> Graet: based on the last 1000 blocks
1121 2012-03-09 19:09:06 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: as for this moment, I'm planning to deploy BIP16 before 15.03
1122 2012-03-09 19:09:35 <Graet> so theres a vote to oppose bip16 in the vote for bip17, but no vote against 17 in 16? so thats how you come up with those figures?
1123 2012-03-09 19:10:42 <candlepin> bip16 is excellent
1124 2012-03-09 19:10:49 <[Tycho]> Looks like the wallet thing is resolved now.
1125 2012-03-09 19:10:58 Davincij has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1126 2012-03-09 19:11:04 <[Tycho]> candlepin: no.
1127 2012-03-09 19:11:43 <luke-jr> Graet: there are 4 identifiers
1128 2012-03-09 19:11:46 <candlepin> gavinandresen++
1129 2012-03-09 19:11:57 <luke-jr> Graet: /P2SH/ NOP2SH p2sh/CHV p2sh/NOCHV
1130 2012-03-09 19:12:05 <[Tycho]> See - they are just Gavin's fans.
1131 2012-03-09 19:12:17 <luke-jr> candlepin: try actually reading the BIP
1132 2012-03-09 19:12:24 <candlepin> i have
1133 2012-03-09 19:12:33 <gavinandresen> BIP16 has just one identifier.
1134 2012-03-09 19:12:34 <Graet> havent nseen /CHV p2sh/NOCHV widely publicised... shame
1135 2012-03-09 19:12:41 <candlepin> it does what we need..
1136 2012-03-09 19:12:48 pusle has joined
1137 2012-03-09 19:13:01 <gavinandresen> ... and four seems like two too many.
1138 2012-03-09 19:13:05 <luke-jr> Graet: it's part of the patch
1139 2012-03-09 19:13:06 <[Tycho]> candlepin: plain multisig also does what we need and WORKS :)
1140 2012-03-09 19:13:13 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: no, it doesn't.
1141 2012-03-09 19:13:15 fimpfimp has joined
1142 2012-03-09 19:13:20 <Graet> luke-jr, its a way to enhance your fud is all...
1143 2012-03-09 19:13:22 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: why ?
1144 2012-03-09 19:13:33 <luke-jr> candlepin: it does what is needed, by breaking the existing rules in strange ways
1145 2012-03-09 19:13:52 <gavinandresen> I'm going to go away; somebody /msg me when y'all are done beating the dead horse.
1146 2012-03-09 19:14:00 gavinandresen has left ()
1147 2012-03-09 19:14:03 <candlepin> i think from an interoperability standpoint, there might be need for a libsatoshi, just to make it easier for improvements to get deployed
1148 2012-03-09 19:14:24 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1149 2012-03-09 19:14:47 <luke-jr> candlepin: BIP 17 does what is needed within the existing system
1150 2012-03-09 19:15:28 <[Tycho]> Someone is buying large amounts of shares at GPUMAX and points it to DeepBit. I wonder if they doing it without any reason or for supporting BIP17...
1151 2012-03-09 19:15:54 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I think if they wanted to support BIP 17, they would point it at Eligius
1152 2012-03-09 19:16:07 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: pirat says GPUMAX buyers do so as gambling
1153 2012-03-09 19:16:44 <Graet> [Tycho], they try to get short rounds, apparently it can be quite profitble, thats all they care about there ;)
1154 2012-03-09 19:17:00 <candlepin> gpumax is a pool-hopping casino
1155 2012-03-09 19:17:20 <Graet> except u cant really hop with it :)
1156 2012-03-09 19:17:29 <denisx> how much hashing power do they have?
1157 2012-03-09 19:17:29 <candlepin> right i mean max internally is hopping around
1158 2012-03-09 19:17:37 <[Tycho]> Graet: someone tried :
1159 2012-03-09 19:17:39 <[Tycho]> )
1160 2012-03-09 19:17:57 Davincij15 has joined
1161 2012-03-09 19:18:01 <Graet> :)
1162 2012-03-09 19:18:15 <sipa> Graet: you're ozcoin's operator, right?
1163 2012-03-09 19:18:17 * luke-jr would love to see people buy GPUMAX time to support BIP 17, but is trying to be realistic about it :P
1164 2012-03-09 19:18:24 <Graet> yers sipa
1165 2012-03-09 19:18:25 AlexWaters has joined
1166 2012-03-09 19:18:53 <sipa> Graet: any progress on implementing BIP30?
1167 2012-03-09 19:19:26 <Graet> not yet but it will be by the 15th sipa
1168 2012-03-09 19:20:07 <Graet> hopefully over the weekend
1169 2012-03-09 19:20:31 _sgstair has joined
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1171 2012-03-09 19:20:34 _sgstair is now known as sgstair
1172 2012-03-09 19:20:51 <sipa> Graet: ok, good
1173 2012-03-09 19:20:54 bitcoinsarefun is now known as zz_bitcoinsarefu
1174 2012-03-09 19:21:19 <sipa> btcguild just deployed it
1175 2012-03-09 19:21:37 <Graet> cool, we get most done on weekends
1176 2012-03-09 19:21:38 <[Tycho]> Cool.
1177 2012-03-09 19:22:10 <sipa> and eclipsemc too, i believe
1178 2012-03-09 19:23:53 Davincij has joined
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1180 2012-03-09 19:24:52 <[Tycho]> Will the BIP16 address start from the same letter always ?
1181 2012-03-09 19:25:36 <sipa> always a 3, afaik
1182 2012-03-09 19:26:07 <sipa> technically, it is a bip13 address
1183 2012-03-09 19:26:20 <sipa> bip16 is its implementation
1184 2012-03-09 19:26:44 <[Tycho]> Looks like this part is missing from the backport
1185 2012-03-09 19:27:18 andytoshi has joined
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1187 2012-03-09 19:33:25 <BlueMatt> "Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)" brings a whole new level to the idea "Emacs is a great OS, not such a great text editor"
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1200 2012-03-09 19:50:04 <[eval]> i retract the ozcoin thing i said, it was just eclipsemc and not ozcoin (sorry, i had a meeting right after i said that)
1201 2012-03-09 19:51:13 <Graet> thanks [eval]
1202 2012-03-09 19:51:32 <[eval]> :D
1203 2012-03-09 19:57:07 fimpfimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1204 2012-03-09 19:59:48 fimpfimp has joined
1205 2012-03-09 20:02:39 <[Tycho]>  1 000 000 BTC mined :)
1206 2012-03-09 20:03:22 <[eval]> congrats!
1207 2012-03-09 20:03:29 <[Tycho]> Thanks.
1208 2012-03-09 20:03:45 Diablo-D3 has joined
1209 2012-03-09 20:03:50 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
1210 2012-03-09 20:03:51 <gribble> 170403
1211 2012-03-09 20:04:03 <[eval]> we're at just under 31% annualized inflation at this point :)
1212 2012-03-09 20:04:40 gavinandresen has joined
1213 2012-03-09 20:04:44 <[eval]> wb gavinandresen
1214 2012-03-09 20:07:02 <andytoshi> haha, bitcoincharts is claiming 14 THash
1215 2012-03-09 20:07:04 <andytoshi> what a network
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1225 2012-03-09 20:34:52 * helo wonders why such a jump in thash without a value increase
1226 2012-03-09 20:36:08 <gmaxwell> helo: Are you also one of the people that say that global warming is obviously impossible when you see a picture of snow?
1227 2012-03-09 20:36:20 <forsetifox> Heh.
1228 2012-03-09 20:36:42 agricocb has joined
1229 2012-03-09 20:37:27 <gmaxwell> (for more context, I'm looking at http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png and not seeing any particular reason to justify helo's question)
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1238 2012-03-09 20:53:50 <[Tycho]> sipa: Gavin's example at testnet is
1239 2012-03-09 20:53:55 <[Tycho]> "2", not "3".
1240 2012-03-09 20:54:04 <[Tycho]> It's to separate testnet addresses ?
1241 2012-03-09 20:55:18 <gavinandresen> Yes, testnet multisigs are '2something'
1242 2012-03-09 20:59:47 <userttu> hi, will possible something like: can onl spend btc if 60% of 100 pre definied agree.
1243 2012-03-09 20:59:54 <userttu> only
1244 2012-03-09 21:00:21 RazielZ has joined
1245 2012-03-09 21:00:28 <userttu> 100 pre definied address
1246 2012-03-09 21:00:38 <userttu> ?
1247 2012-03-09 21:03:22 <BlueMatt> 100 is a bit much - would require too much cpu power for the network to accept them
1248 2012-03-09 21:03:27 <BlueMatt> but in theory, yes
1249 2012-03-09 21:03:36 <BlueMatt> and in practice, less than 100, you can do any n of m
1250 2012-03-09 21:04:54 <userttu> hum, there are some good examples where should be interesting more than 100
1251 2012-03-09 21:05:19 <BlueMatt> yea, but enabling txes like that makes them a great ddos target
1252 2012-03-09 21:06:14 <userttu> Maybe on future something like this can be done, right?
1253 2012-03-09 21:06:27 <userttu> not impossible? right
1254 2012-03-09 21:06:38 <BlueMatt> yea, just need a much more effecient signing algo
1255 2012-03-09 21:06:47 <BlueMatt> (which would probably require a hard fork...)
1256 2012-03-09 21:07:04 h4ckm3th32nd has joined
1257 2012-03-09 21:07:04 <userttu> ok, thanks for explanation
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1267 2012-03-09 21:11:12 <helo> perhaps it is a little premature to think the hashrate is actually higher...
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1305 2012-03-09 22:36:49 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened issue 922 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/922>
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1308 2012-03-09 22:42:41 <kish> ************************
1309 2012-03-09 22:42:41 <kish> EXCEPTION: 11DbException
1310 2012-03-09 22:42:41 <kish> Db::put: Cannot allocate memory
1311 2012-03-09 22:42:41 <kish> bitcoin in ProcessMessage()
1312 2012-03-09 22:42:46 <kish> still working
1313 2012-03-09 22:43:45 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
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1321 2012-03-09 22:59:47 <sturles> kish: This happened to me today, and bitcoind got suck in an orphaned chain.
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1324 2012-03-09 23:01:51 <[Tycho]> anyone here ?
1325 2012-03-09 23:02:59 <forsetifox> I am. But I doubt you need me.
1326 2012-03-09 23:03:24 barmstrong has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1329 2012-03-09 23:13:24 <BlueMatt> hi [Tycho]
1330 2012-03-09 23:13:47 <[Tycho]> Wow, looks like I did it.
1331 2012-03-09 23:14:14 <BlueMatt> what?
1332 2012-03-09 23:14:29 <[Tycho]> Sent a P2SH TX
1333 2012-03-09 23:14:46 Z0rZ0rZ0r1 has joined
1334 2012-03-09 23:15:09 <BlueMatt> ah
1335 2012-03-09 23:15:20 <BlueMatt> well they arent checked yet...
1336 2012-03-09 23:15:55 <BlueMatt> well, not on mainnet at least
1337 2012-03-09 23:16:15 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1338 2012-03-09 23:17:31 * luke-jr ponders putting the effort into 'stealing' Tycho's P2SH txn
1339 2012-03-09 23:17:38 <luke-jr> :p
1340 2012-03-09 23:18:39 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: you can, but it needs to be mined first :) Which is not possible yet, I supose.
1341 2012-03-09 23:18:54 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: sure it is.
1342 2012-03-09 23:19:02 <BlueMatt> any valid or semi-valid  p2sh tx should be mined atm
1343 2012-03-09 23:19:06 <luke-jr> unchecked = anyone can take it
1344 2012-03-09 23:19:19 <[Tycho]> I doubt it gets relayed somewhere.
1345 2012-03-09 23:19:27 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I bet Eligius has it.
1346 2012-03-09 23:19:38 <[Tycho]> Show it to me :)
1347 2012-03-09 23:19:41 <BlueMatt> relaying would be the issue, but you can peer with luke
1348 2012-03-09 23:19:41 <luke-jr> txnid?
1349 2012-03-09 23:19:49 <[Tycho]> BTW, what is redeeming script for it ?
1350 2012-03-09 23:19:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I intentionally peer with Deepbit. ;)
1351 2012-03-09 23:19:57 <BlueMatt> oh, well then ok
1352 2012-03-09 23:20:05 <BlueMatt> (if tycho sent it from the pool...)
1353 2012-03-09 23:20:25 <[Tycho]> I doubt because my own nodes won't relay non-standard TXes yet.
1354 2012-03-09 23:20:49 <[Tycho]> txid is 658fc92061f1c4125d5cd1034eb8a1f09bfebd32a988d855eb7ee63689759a21
1355 2012-03-09 23:20:50 <BlueMatt> yet?
1356 2012-03-09 23:21:11 <[Tycho]> Yet.
1357 2012-03-09 23:21:18 archo47 has quit ()
1358 2012-03-09 23:21:35 <luke-jr> I don't have it.
1359 2012-03-09 23:22:04 <[Tycho]> I'll enable relaying soon.
1360 2012-03-09 23:22:08 <BlueMatt> why?
1361 2012-03-09 23:23:10 <[Tycho]> Because 15.03 is coming soon.
1362 2012-03-09 23:23:16 <BlueMatt> 15.03?
1363 2012-03-09 23:23:32 <luke-jr> Bitcoin 15.0.3 ofc
1364 2012-03-09 23:23:43 <[Tycho]> 15.03.2012
1365 2012-03-09 23:23:56 <BlueMatt> and why are you enable nonstd relaying on 15.03.2012?
1366 2012-03-09 23:24:06 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1367 2012-03-09 23:24:26 <[Tycho]> Because it will be standard P2SH TX.
1368 2012-03-09 23:24:59 <BlueMatt> well yea, enable relaying on standard p2sh txes, but why enable nonstd txes?
1369 2012-03-09 23:25:35 <[Tycho]> I was talking about relaying P2SH
1370 2012-03-09 23:25:54 <[Tycho]> But today it looks like non-standard TX for my relayers.
1371 2012-03-09 23:25:56 <BlueMatt> oh, ok well yea, was that not part of the p2sh patch?
1372 2012-03-09 23:26:21 <[Tycho]> It's not deployed to all nodes yet.
1373 2012-03-09 23:26:51 <BlueMatt> oh, but you arent enabling all nonstd tx relaying are you?
1374 2012-03-09 23:27:04 <[Tycho]> I'm not.
1375 2012-03-09 23:27:23 <BlueMatt> ok, good to hear
1376 2012-03-09 23:27:28 <[Tycho]> Why ?
1377 2012-03-09 23:29:20 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
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1379 2012-03-09 23:30:22 <BlueMatt> see: mtgox + eligius issues, also it makes it much, much harder to spam the chain
1380 2012-03-09 23:30:31 <BlueMatt> (not that that isnt easily possible, but it is harder)
1381 2012-03-09 23:30:45 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: unless you pay luke to do it
1382 2012-03-09 23:30:49 <jrmithdobbs> heh
1383 2012-03-09 23:30:53 <BlueMatt> well, ok
1384 2012-03-09 23:30:54 <[Tycho]> Mining and relaying is not the same.
1385 2012-03-09 23:31:01 <[Tycho]> What was the mtgox issue ?
1386 2012-03-09 23:31:07 <BlueMatt> yea, but more relays means finding miners is easier
1387 2012-03-09 23:31:17 <BlueMatt> mtgox made an unspendable tx and it was mined
1388 2012-03-09 23:31:20 <BlueMatt> they lost quite a few btc
1389 2012-03-09 23:31:25 <jrmithdobbs> haha
1390 2012-03-09 23:33:14 <gmaxwell> made quite a few non-standard unspendable tx and lost a few thousand btc... txn that no one would have mined except for their API to eligius to request the mining of transactions. doh.
1391 2012-03-09 23:33:37 <BlueMatt> oh, I thought it was just one, oh well
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