1 2012-03-11 00:02:19 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
   2 2012-03-11 00:02:19 <gribble> 170595
   3 2012-03-11 00:02:29 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
   4 2012-03-11 00:02:39 <sipa> mcorlett: any changes, or are all blocks still reported as orphans?
   5 2012-03-11 00:03:55 <mcorlett> sipa: Yeah, still reported as orphans.
   6 2012-03-11 00:04:11 <mcorlett> (I did a checkblocks, but to no avail.)
   7 2012-03-11 00:04:58 Tuxavant has joined
   8 2012-03-11 00:05:12 <Tuxavant> anyone with some experience with double spends here?
   9 2012-03-11 00:05:44 <sipa> Tuxavant: what for?
  10 2012-03-11 00:05:59 <sipa> mcorlett: hmm, can you try running your node -connect=80.200.11.178 ?
  11 2012-03-11 00:06:02 <sipa> (that's me)
  12 2012-03-11 00:06:12 <sipa> then i can see what happens on the other side
  13 2012-03-11 00:06:51 <Tuxavant> sipa.. i  was in the process of buying some bitcoins from a guy (3rd time).. about 120 bitcoins for cash.. he sent them earlier and they never confirmed and i got a double spend warning from blockchain.info
  14 2012-03-11 00:07:01 <Tuxavant> something about unspent inputs/use caution
  15 2012-03-11 00:07:14 <Tuxavant> address of my phone is 1KQ6imQ1MtBwPnZQuMxnUfehustBErkZby
  16 2012-03-11 00:07:16 <mcorlett> sipa: Connecting...
  17 2012-03-11 00:07:35 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  18 2012-03-11 00:08:50 <mcorlett> Tuxavant: Everything looks OK. You'll probably have it confirmed fairly soon.
  19 2012-03-11 00:09:06 Raccoon has joined
  20 2012-03-11 00:09:15 <sipa> mcorlett: anything interesting happened?
  21 2012-03-11 00:09:40 <mcorlett> sipa: I only have a single connection, not sure if that's expected.
  22 2012-03-11 00:09:43 <Tuxavant> so this warning message from the source address is normal? "Warning! this bitcoin address contains transactions which maybe double spends. You should be extremely careful when trusting any transactions to/from this address. "
  23 2012-03-11 00:09:48 <mcorlett> It's still stuck, though.
  24 2012-03-11 00:10:03 <sipa> mcorlett: yes, very expected
  25 2012-03-11 00:10:07 <sipa> mcorlett: anything in debug.log?
  26 2012-03-11 00:10:12 <mcorlett> Checking.
  27 2012-03-11 00:12:26 <mcorlett> sipa: Doesn't look like it.
  28 2012-03-11 00:12:28 <mcorlett> http://pastebin.com/LGn7WLQe
  29 2012-03-11 00:12:41 <mcorlett> I stripped out some AddAddress messages.
  30 2012-03-11 00:12:57 <Diablo-D3> Tuxavant: huh
  31 2012-03-11 00:13:02 <Diablo-D3> I didnt even know that error message existed
  32 2012-03-11 00:13:22 <sipa> mcorlett: kinda expected; let's wait for a new block
  33 2012-03-11 00:13:24 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
  34 2012-03-11 00:13:24 <gribble> 170595
  35 2012-03-11 00:14:49 <Tuxavant> Diablo-D3, if you click on the funding bitcoin address in blockchain.info, you'll get that message
  36 2012-03-11 00:14:59 <Tuxavant> http://blockchain.info/address/d47c1c9afc2a18319e7b78762dc8814727473e90
  37 2012-03-11 00:15:32 <sipa> Tuxavant: several possible causes for that; you may ask for a reason though
  38 2012-03-11 00:15:41 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
  39 2012-03-11 00:15:55 <sipa> but if you get to 6 confirmations, you should be fine
  40 2012-03-11 00:15:56 <Tuxavant> sipa ok, what is the reason? lol or do you mean ask the sender?
  41 2012-03-11 00:16:00 <sipa> yes
  42 2012-03-11 00:16:37 <sipa> (e.g. running a second bitcoind with a copy of a wallet.dat file can cause it)
  43 2012-03-11 00:17:15 <Tuxavant> he just "sent the money" and doesn't understand the problem.
  44 2012-03-11 00:17:53 <Tuxavant> i'll ask if thre was any change he was running a copy of the wallet
  45 2012-03-11 00:18:48 <sipa> Tuxavant: wait a bit
  46 2012-03-11 00:18:55 <Tuxavant> sipa it's got zero confirmations now... and it was sent at least an hour ago... how long should i wait?
  47 2012-03-11 00:19:26 Cablesaurus has joined
  48 2012-03-11 00:19:26 Cablesaurus has quit (Changing host)
  49 2012-03-11 00:19:26 Cablesaurus has joined
  50 2012-03-11 00:20:11 <sipa> Tuxavant: my memory pool accepted the transaction, so it seems valid at least
  51 2012-03-11 00:20:27 <sipa> so just wait
  52 2012-03-11 00:20:40 <Tuxavant> ok. thank you
  53 2012-03-11 00:21:18 <mcorlett> Yeah, we've had very few blocks in the past hour, so I suppose the miners have had transactions with a higher priority or fee to choose from.
  54 2012-03-11 00:23:31 <mcorlett> Only a generation tx in 170595. Interesting.
  55 2012-03-11 00:24:49 chao has joined
  56 2012-03-11 00:28:41 blumenkraft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  57 2012-03-11 00:31:17 splatster has joined
  58 2012-03-11 00:31:56 chao has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  59 2012-03-11 00:32:03 facefox has joined
  60 2012-03-11 00:34:57 chao has joined
  61 2012-03-11 00:36:24 <mcorlett> 45 minutes, Jesus H. Christ.
  62 2012-03-11 00:38:01 <sipa> he had a middle name?
  63 2012-03-11 00:38:46 <Tuxavant> sipa... the transaction had no transaction fee... could that be the cause?
  64 2012-03-11 00:38:53 <sipa> maybe
  65 2012-03-11 00:41:33 <mcorlett> sipa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_H._Christ
  66 2012-03-11 00:43:35 <sipa> i see
  67 2012-03-11 00:45:37 <mcorlett> sipa: Orphan.
  68 2012-03-11 00:45:53 <mcorlett> Seeing anything interesting on your end?
  69 2012-03-11 00:47:46 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  70 2012-03-11 00:50:40 <sipa> mcorlett: found it
  71 2012-03-11 00:50:42 Samuel has joined
  72 2012-03-11 00:50:49 <sipa> serious bug, actually
  73 2012-03-11 00:50:59 <sipa> it prevents reorganisations of longer than 500 blocks
  74 2012-03-11 00:51:08 <Samuel> You here, tcatm?
  75 2012-03-11 00:51:16 <tcatm> Yes.
  76 2012-03-11 00:51:26 <Samuel> I have a set of icons that are perfect!
  77 2012-03-11 00:51:31 <tcatm> Cool!
  78 2012-03-11 00:51:35 <Samuel> I'll email them to you
  79 2012-03-11 00:52:14 <mcorlett> sipa: This is great. Can I shut the node down?
  80 2012-03-11 00:53:28 <Samuel> Ok, emailed
  81 2012-03-11 00:53:44 <sipa> mcorlett: i'm just going to make a change here to work around that extra bug
  82 2012-03-11 00:54:02 <tcatm> Samuel: They really look good. Where did you get them from?
  83 2012-03-11 00:54:03 <sipa> sec
  84 2012-03-11 00:54:24 <mcorlett> sipa: I expect to be around for an hour or so. If you're able to get a fix within that timeframe, I can help test.
  85 2012-03-11 00:54:34 <Samuel> Theya re from this huge set: http://www.iconsweets2.com/
  86 2012-03-11 00:54:45 <sipa> mcorlett: sure
  87 2012-03-11 00:55:35 <Samuel> tcatm: Says you can use them for your projects so we'll be safe using them
  88 2012-03-11 00:55:59 <mcorlett> Samuel, tcatm: You guys might want to get a written waiver, just in case.
  89 2012-03-11 00:56:12 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  90 2012-03-11 00:56:22 <Samuel> tcatm: It says on the site "You may use these icons for both commercial and non-commercial projects and customize them any way you like.
  91 2012-03-11 00:57:32 coingenuity has joined
  92 2012-03-11 00:57:33 <Samuel> tcatm: The icons I sent to you are 16x16
  93 2012-03-11 00:57:43 coingenuity is now known as Guest59962
  94 2012-03-11 00:59:00 <sipa> mcorlett: try reconnecting
  95 2012-03-11 01:00:57 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert8.png
  96 2012-03-11 01:00:57 Raccoon has joined
  97 2012-03-11 01:01:08 Guest59962 is now known as coingenuity
  98 2012-03-11 01:01:09 coingenuity has quit (Changing host)
  99 2012-03-11 01:01:10 coingenuity has joined
 100 2012-03-11 01:01:24 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
 101 2012-03-11 01:01:25 <gribble> 170596
 102 2012-03-11 01:01:37 <mcorlett> sipa: I'm seeing a whole bunch of 11DbExceptions
 103 2012-03-11 01:02:16 <mcorlett> http://pastebin.com/dg1Gxsii
 104 2012-03-11 01:02:30 <sipa> mcorlett: ok, that's what i wanted to see
 105 2012-03-11 01:02:45 <sipa> mcorlett: can you shut down your node, and compile my minireorg branch?
 106 2012-03-11 01:03:00 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/minireorg
 107 2012-03-11 01:03:29 <mcorlett> Sure thing.
 108 2012-03-11 01:04:06 <sipa> and then run it in the same way (but keep a backup of blk0001.dat and blkindex.dat, if you didn't make those yet)
 109 2012-03-11 01:07:01 <mcorlett> sipa: How do I disable UPNP when compiling, again?
 110 2012-03-11 01:07:26 <sipa> make USE_UPNP=
 111 2012-03-11 01:07:45 <mcorlett> Ok, here we go again.
 112 2012-03-11 01:08:37 <mcorlett> I still have the blockchain that's stuck on my Windows box, is that good enough for a "backup"?
 113 2012-03-11 01:08:43 <sipa> sure
 114 2012-03-11 01:10:35 <mcorlett> Running your branch now.
 115 2012-03-11 01:10:43 <sipa> With -connect= ?
 116 2012-03-11 01:11:06 <mcorlett> Yeah, but I didn't kill the old process nicely it seems.
 117 2012-03-11 01:11:13 <mcorlett> Bitcoin: Unable to bind to port 8333 on this computer.
 118 2012-03-11 01:11:22 <sipa> ah, kill it
 119 2012-03-11 01:11:36 <Diablo-D3> KHEEL EET
 120 2012-03-11 01:12:43 <mcorlett> Trying again!
 121 2012-03-11 01:13:40 <mcorlett> Looks like we've got reorganization.
 122 2012-03-11 01:14:07 <mcorlett> Oh yes!
 123 2012-03-11 01:14:14 <mcorlett> It's happenin'.
 124 2012-03-11 01:14:50 <Samuel> tcatm: How is it coming along?
 125 2012-03-11 01:15:03 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert8.png :)
 126 2012-03-11 01:16:07 <Diablo-D3> looking kind of osx there
 127 2012-03-11 01:17:05 <Samuel> tcatm: Nice! I think their needs to just be a few more pixels of space between the icon and text. Can you make the corners of the app be rounded?
 128 2012-03-11 01:17:57 <tcatm> I can't add a space there easily. It would require writing some code and manual painting methods.
 129 2012-03-11 01:18:25 <Samuel> oh, ok
 130 2012-03-11 01:18:33 <tcatm> No idea whether I can make them round. My window manager couldn't handle that anyway.
 131 2012-03-11 01:18:38 <sipa> mcorlett: ah, good to hear!
 132 2012-03-11 01:19:41 machine1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 133 2012-03-11 01:19:47 <Samuel> brb
 134 2012-03-11 01:19:56 <sipa> mcorlett: thanks you!
 135 2012-03-11 01:20:00 <sipa> *thank
 136 2012-03-11 01:20:28 <mcorlett> sipa: No worries, glad I could help.
 137 2012-03-11 01:21:03 candlepin has joined
 138 2012-03-11 01:21:53 machine1 has joined
 139 2012-03-11 01:22:55 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 140 2012-03-11 01:27:26 machine1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 141 2012-03-11 01:29:03 <JorgePasada> How big is the current blockchain size wise?
 142 2012-03-11 01:29:22 <Tuxavant> sipa thank you.. confirmations starting to show up. got 2 now
 143 2012-03-11 01:29:43 <Samuel> tcatm: http://cl.ly/1i3o2W393S472s391A02 Can you make these changes?
 144 2012-03-11 01:34:09 <tcatm> Umm, the underlined letters are there for a reason.
 145 2012-03-11 01:34:46 JRWR has joined
 146 2012-03-11 01:35:03 <Samuel> Just seems useless, OS X hasn't had those things in years. I guess its just an appearance  thing
 147 2012-03-11 01:36:08 <tcatm> It's highly useful if you control a computer mostly with a keyboard.
 148 2012-03-11 01:36:43 <Samuel> Well, ok
 149 2012-03-11 01:38:04 <Samuel> tcatm: I'll get more icons for the buttons (copy, add, etc.)
 150 2012-03-11 01:42:58 <tcatm> Where should we show the current balance? Maybe still in the sidebar?
 151 2012-03-11 01:43:35 <Samuel> Can to have it in the top like i have in my screenshot? http://cl.ly/3l3V321y3d0z3S2H2x1e
 152 2012-03-11 01:43:58 <Samuel> Maybe to the right side since there is stuff on the right
 153 2012-03-11 01:44:28 <Samuel> (Where bar with File, Settings, Help)
 154 2012-03-11 01:46:08 <Samuel> The text for the tab that is selected in the sidebar should be bold. Can you do that?
 155 2012-03-11 01:52:10 <tcatm> I can, but then the longest text will be cut-off on the right when it is selected.
 156 2012-03-11 01:52:41 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 157 2012-03-11 01:54:53 <neofutur> JorgePasada: more than one GB
 158 2012-03-11 01:55:22 <neofutur> -rw-------  1 neofutur neofutur 1.1G 2012-03-10 12:05 blk0001.dat
 159 2012-03-11 01:55:22 <neofutur> -rw-------  1 neofutur neofutur 392M 2012-03-10 12:06 blkindex.dat
 160 2012-03-11 01:55:26 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 161 2012-03-11 01:55:38 machine1 has joined
 162 2012-03-11 01:55:40 <neofutur> reaching 1.5 GB
 163 2012-03-11 01:56:53 <neofutur> imho light clients need some kind of btrusted lockchain provider
 164 2012-03-11 01:57:52 Samuel_ has joined
 165 2012-03-11 01:59:02 Samuel_ has left ()
 166 2012-03-11 01:59:26 Samuel_ has joined
 167 2012-03-11 02:00:00 <Samuel_> Hmm, I reloaded the page now it says my name is registered so im Samuel_
 168 2012-03-11 02:00:26 <sipa> your old self is still here
 169 2012-03-11 02:00:28 <neofutur> if you registered you need to identify to use the nickname
 170 2012-03-11 02:00:40 <sipa> the server didn't realize the old one is not connected anymore
 171 2012-03-11 02:00:43 <neofutur>  /msg nickserv help ghost
 172 2012-03-11 02:00:48 Samuel has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 173 2012-03-11 02:00:59 <neofutur>  /msg nickserv help identify
 174 2012-03-11 02:01:15 <neofutur> ah the ghost is gone
 175 2012-03-11 02:01:24 mcorlett is now known as Samuel
 176 2012-03-11 02:01:28 <Samuel> Haha!
 177 2012-03-11 02:01:31 Samuel is now known as mcorlett
 178 2012-03-11 02:01:34 <Samuel_> What?
 179 2012-03-11 02:01:36 sacarlson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 180 2012-03-11 02:02:04 <Samuel_> Can I change back to just Samuel?
 181 2012-03-11 02:02:10 <mcorlett>  /nick Samuel
 182 2012-03-11 02:02:20 Samuel_ is now known as Samuel
 183 2012-03-11 02:02:37 <mcorlett> It's registered by someone, and I take it it's not you.
 184 2012-03-11 02:02:48 <Samuel> its registered?
 185 2012-03-11 02:02:54 <mcorlett> That person can kick you off at will.
 186 2012-03-11 02:03:07 <Samuel> oh wait
 187 2012-03-11 02:03:13 Jamesz has quit ()
 188 2012-03-11 02:03:13 <Samuel> now im back to just Samuel
 189 2012-03-11 02:03:19 <Samuel> weird...
 190 2012-03-11 02:03:57 <Samuel> SO i want to register this so no one else can have it. What do I type for that?
 191 2012-03-11 02:04:12 <mcorlett> You can't do that. As I said, someone already owns that nickname.
 192 2012-03-11 02:04:31 <mcorlett> Choose something more unique.
 193 2012-03-11 02:04:39 <Samuel> Oh, then how am I Samuel right now?
 194 2012-03-11 02:05:01 <mcorlett> The person isn't online right now, and hasn't enabled the option of forcing you to identify.
 195 2012-03-11 02:05:17 <Samuel> oh, I guess I just keep doing this
 196 2012-03-11 02:05:20 imsaguy is now known as mykittie
 197 2012-03-11 02:05:27 mykittie is now known as imsaguy
 198 2012-03-11 02:05:37 <mcorlett> (I have. If you switch to my nickname and fail to identify within 30 seconds, you're kicked off.)
 199 2012-03-11 02:06:13 <userjgg> samuel: are you thinking in more ui changes?
 200 2012-03-11 02:06:40 <Samuel> What exactly do you mean by that?
 201 2012-03-11 02:07:55 mcorlett is now known as ponymage_
 202 2012-03-11 02:08:02 ponymage_ is now known as mcorlett
 203 2012-03-11 02:08:08 <userjgg> samuel: the changes for now is just icons and color?
 204 2012-03-11 02:08:17 <userjgg> right?
 205 2012-03-11 02:08:38 <userjgg> or  are you thinking in more things?
 206 2012-03-11 02:08:50 <Samuel> Yeah... I guess maybe tomorrow we will do more of the inside parts
 207 2012-03-11 02:09:45 <userjgg> samuel: is it possible remove the menus?
 208 2012-03-11 02:09:46 <Samuel> We need to figure out what should go on the overview tab besides your balance, any ideas?
 209 2012-03-11 02:09:49 <userjgg> file
 210 2012-03-11 02:09:52 <userjgg> help
 211 2012-03-11 02:09:54 <userjgg> ...
 212 2012-03-11 02:10:26 <userjgg> and add a config menu on sidebar
 213 2012-03-11 02:10:35 <Samuel> I would like that, but you'll have to ask tcatm (not sure if he's still here.)
 214 2012-03-11 02:10:51 <userjgg> ok
 215 2012-03-11 02:10:59 da2ce7 has joined
 216 2012-03-11 02:11:46 <userjgg> i think should exist a settings menu down address book
 217 2012-03-11 02:12:19 <luke-jr> is GUIUtil::setupAmountWidget used, ever? O.o
 218 2012-03-11 02:12:24 <Samuel> You mean below address book?
 219 2012-03-11 02:12:38 <userjgg> yes below
 220 2012-03-11 02:12:50 <userjgg> my english is bad
 221 2012-03-11 02:13:04 <Samuel> yeah we may do that if we get rid of the task bar
 222 2012-03-11 02:13:04 twmz has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
 223 2012-03-11 02:13:47 <tcatm> I think the taskbar will stay for now.
 224 2012-03-11 02:14:04 <tcatm> luke-jr: Doesn't look like it is used anywhere.
 225 2012-03-11 02:14:12 <luke-jr> >_<
 226 2012-03-11 02:14:33 <userjgg> i like the google chrome settings design page
 227 2012-03-11 02:14:41 vigilyn has joined
 228 2012-03-11 02:14:53 vigilyn has quit (Client Quit)
 229 2012-03-11 02:15:08 vigilyn has joined
 230 2012-03-11 02:16:06 XMPPwocky has quit (Quit: leaving)
 231 2012-03-11 02:16:24 XMPPwocky has joined
 232 2012-03-11 02:18:41 sacarlson has joined
 233 2012-03-11 02:21:00 <tcatm> Balance top right does not work.
 234 2012-03-11 02:21:28 <userjgg> samuel: do you already saw safebit google chrome addon
 235 2012-03-11 02:21:42 twmz has joined
 236 2012-03-11 02:22:17 <Samuel> userjgg: No I have not heard of a Chrome add on called safebit, ill take a look at it
 237 2012-03-11 02:22:30 <userjgg> it's a bitcoin wallet app
 238 2012-03-11 02:22:30 <userjgg> i remember i liked the app design
 239 2012-03-11 02:23:12 <Samuel> hmm interesting
 240 2012-03-11 02:24:32 <Samuel> I would use it if had at least half decent design.
 241 2012-03-11 02:24:50 <Samuel> I hate it, personally
 242 2012-03-11 02:24:53 <userjgg> do you have screenshot
 243 2012-03-11 02:25:04 <userjgg> i can't see
 244 2012-03-11 02:25:13 <Samuel> of the add on?
 245 2012-03-11 02:25:19 <userjgg> slow like cell phome hardware
 246 2012-03-11 02:25:23 <userjgg> yes
 247 2012-03-11 02:25:55 <userjgg> i can't browse chrome addons page
 248 2012-03-11 02:25:59 <Samuel> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0xRAnnf3n9OV63JVMjAwga7awiw-m0SZ1Dcvfng6pfqA4-iDhYW7utTm87DR68T1pfWJXrrSKg=s640-h400-e365 there is their snap they used for the extention store
 249 2012-03-11 02:26:31 <userjgg> will see
 250 2012-03-11 02:26:54 <Samuel> ok, maybe the deisgn isn't that bad but the functionality isn't smooth, snappy, or intuitive
 251 2012-03-11 02:27:26 <userjgg> i like clean design
 252 2012-03-11 02:27:48 <userjgg> maybe i liked because it's clean
 253 2012-03-11 02:28:00 <Samuel> I suppose its clean
 254 2012-03-11 02:28:50 <Samuel> it barely functions, i'll stick with Flexcoin and the software
 255 2012-03-11 02:29:39 <Samuel> Do you use any online wallets?
 256 2012-03-11 02:29:46 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert9.png
 257 2012-03-11 02:29:49 <userjgg> samuel: look the amount field of safebit
 258 2012-03-11 02:30:16 <userjgg> the us dollar
 259 2012-03-11 02:30:34 <Samuel> its a little Ƀ symbol
 260 2012-03-11 02:30:57 <userjgg> i think the switch between btc, mbtc .. should be like that
 261 2012-03-11 02:31:59 <userjgg> i already used the online wallet of blockchain.info
 262 2012-03-11 02:32:04 <Samuel> tcatm: nice! can the amount of bitcoins be left-aligned like the text above it?
 263 2012-03-11 02:32:32 <sipa> Interesting, a designer and a developer collaborating via a public IRC channel.
 264 2012-03-11 02:32:47 <Samuel> Hell ya!
 265 2012-03-11 02:32:57 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert9l.png
 266 2012-03-11 02:33:53 <Samuel> The Views text doesn't really fit for a cattegory name... maybe "My Account"
 267 2012-03-11 02:34:16 <Samuel> The red outline is just temporary right?
 268 2012-03-11 02:34:35 <tcatm> The red outline is my window manager marking the active window.
 269 2012-03-11 02:34:44 <Samuel> ok
 270 2012-03-11 02:36:35 <Samuel> Can the box be white so it sticks out on the gray background? Also maybe more "roundness" to the corners, try 5px
 271 2012-03-11 02:36:55 <tcatm> Which box?
 272 2012-03-11 02:37:07 <Samuel> The "Wallet" box
 273 2012-03-11 02:37:42 <Samuel> and the Recent transactions can be in a box too, but theirs nothing their so yeah...
 274 2012-03-11 02:37:54 <tcatm> Sure. I haven't really touched that part yet.
 275 2012-03-11 02:38:01 <Samuel> Ok
 276 2012-03-11 02:38:31 <Samuel> Im not liking the header text, bold helvetica maybe?
 277 2012-03-11 02:38:34 <tcatm> I'd like to move them around a little. Maybe switch from vertical split to horiz. split?
 278 2012-03-11 02:39:07 <Samuel> hmmm
 279 2012-03-11 02:39:29 <Samuel> I like the current vertical split
 280 2012-03-11 02:39:31 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.)
 281 2012-03-11 02:40:15 <tcatm> Let's first decide on whether the balance in the sidebar should be left or right aligned.
 282 2012-03-11 02:40:28 mizerydearia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 283 2012-03-11 02:41:01 <Samuel> left!
 284 2012-03-11 02:41:20 <Samuel> liek how it is in the most recent snap
 285 2012-03-11 02:41:23 <Samuel> *like
 286 2012-03-11 02:42:05 <tcatm> I prefer right. Hrm.
 287 2012-03-11 02:42:22 imsaguy is now known as scammer
 288 2012-03-11 02:42:35 scammer is now known as imsaguy
 289 2012-03-11 02:42:39 <tcatm> Reason: When right aligned digits won't move around when balance changes
 290 2012-03-11 02:43:12 <Samuel> Ahh, I see
 291 2012-03-11 02:43:18 <tcatm> So when downloading new blocks with increasing balance it won't jiggle but steadily increase.
 292 2012-03-11 02:43:18 <Samuel> Hmm
 293 2012-03-11 02:43:46 <Samuel> Thats a great point, I would have never thought of that
 294 2012-03-11 02:43:51 <sipa> tcatm: i think the (number of) digits after the decimal is more likely to change
 295 2012-03-11 02:43:54 <Samuel> Ok, go with right
 296 2012-03-11 02:44:02 <sipa> So I say left. Nah.
 297 2012-03-11 02:44:08 <userjgg> can the borders be roundness? (all borders)
 298 2012-03-11 02:44:30 <tcatm> That's another thing to consider... I'd prefer fixed number of decimals (depending on BTC, mBTC, µBTC setting)
 299 2012-03-11 02:44:51 <sipa> In accounting, you typically want exact numbers.
 300 2012-03-11 02:45:07 <Samuel> well if it fixed then their wont be giggling right?
 301 2012-03-11 02:45:45 <tcatm> Exact numbers have trailing zeros.
 302 2012-03-11 02:46:05 <sipa> Good point. And that's ugly.
 303 2012-03-11 02:46:30 <Samuel> Hmm
 304 2012-03-11 02:46:43 <tcatm> Hrm. Depends. Hopefully, we'll use mBTC be default within a few years so it will look a lot less ugly.
 305 2012-03-11 02:47:15 <JFK911> more like MBTC after the crash
 306 2012-03-11 02:47:28 <Samuel> Im not familiar with mBTC (bitcoin newbie here) what is it?
 307 2012-03-11 02:47:45 <JFK911> SI unit prefix applied to the BTC unit.
 308 2012-03-11 02:47:50 <tcatm> What about some "pseudo intelligent" trailing digits algorithm? If there are < 3 trailing digits, show do %.2f, else %.8f?
 309 2012-03-11 02:48:07 <sipa> Maybe you can have more "units", like "BTC (8 decimals)", "BTC (4 decimals)", "BTC (2 decimals)", "mBTC (5 decimals)", "mBTC (2 decimals)", "uBTC (2 decimals)".
 310 2012-03-11 02:48:21 <sipa> With BTC (2 decimals) the default.
 311 2012-03-11 02:49:18 epscyl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 312 2012-03-11 02:49:26 <tcatm> That's confusing! I had some coins on an exchange that rounded the amount so I couldn't withdraw the full amount even though it would have let me enter it.
 313 2012-03-11 02:49:37 <sipa> Good point.
 314 2012-03-11 02:52:46 <tcatm> Tricky... I wish we had switched to mBTC last year.
 315 2012-03-11 02:54:19 <userjgg> samuel: i think i prefer the overview page background in white color
 316 2012-03-11 02:54:23 <sipa> Samuel: mBTC = millibitcoin
 317 2012-03-11 02:54:34 <userjgg> just my opinion
 318 2012-03-11 02:55:04 <userjgg> i don't like only box in white
 319 2012-03-11 02:55:40 <tcatm> I found an old wallet. Now we have better numbers in the screenshots :)
 320 2012-03-11 02:56:28 <Samuel> userjgg: I like the gray because I would ideally like it to be like this: http://cl.ly/2c061n3n0N1g3x2Q1w3z
 321 2012-03-11 02:56:40 <Samuel> so the white box stands out
 322 2012-03-11 02:57:10 <Samuel> That looks much nicer than just a plain list of numbers
 323 2012-03-11 02:58:11 <userjgg> it's good too, but i prefer all white. but i'm ok with it
 324 2012-03-11 02:58:32 <tcatm> sipa: Would it be possible to have a user defined string (walletlabel) encoded in wallet.dat?
 325 2012-03-11 02:58:53 <sipa> tcatm: for addresses?
 326 2012-03-11 02:59:23 <userjgg> samuel: the orange icon is great
 327 2012-03-11 02:59:37 <Samuel> yeah, you suggested that, right?
 328 2012-03-11 02:59:41 <tcatm> No, just for the wallet. I.e. the text "MY WALLET" in http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert9.png could be changed by the user and stored in the file so when one loads a different wallet.dat he knows which wallet is opened.
 329 2012-03-11 02:59:52 <userjgg> samuel: yes
 330 2012-03-11 03:00:34 <sipa> tcatm: sure, that's easy
 331 2012-03-11 03:00:46 <sipa> tcatm: but adding support for more wallets is harder :)
 332 2012-03-11 03:00:53 <Samuel> tcatm: I sent more icons to you, not sure if the X once fits ni with the rest though
 333 2012-03-11 03:01:14 <tcatm> True, but at least users who have lots of wallets and copy them around to activate them won't be that confused anymore.
 334 2012-03-11 03:01:30 <tcatm> Samuel: Got them. Thanks!
 335 2012-03-11 03:01:55 <Samuel> I'm going to make adjustments to the X so it matches the rest
 336 2012-03-11 03:03:53 LittleDuke has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 337 2012-03-11 03:08:57 candlepin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 338 2012-03-11 03:11:47 <luke-jr> Samuel: why Ƀ when everyone's using B⃦ ?
 339 2012-03-11 03:12:10 <tcatm> We'll stick to BTC.
 340 2012-03-11 03:12:48 <luke-jr> speaking of which, I just finished TBC support for Bitcoin-Qt
 341 2012-03-11 03:13:08 <sipa> *crickets*
 342 2012-03-11 03:14:10 <luke-jr> under 500 LOC :P
 343 2012-03-11 03:14:19 <luke-jr>  7 files changed, 247 insertions(+), 25 deletions(-)
 344 2012-03-11 03:14:35 <tcatm> Does it simplify Balance formatting?
 345 2012-03-11 03:14:54 <luke-jr> tcatm: actually, I was about to mention that
 346 2012-03-11 03:15:16 <tcatm> Cool. Where's the code? Maybe we can throw away the TBC stuff and use it :)
 347 2012-03-11 03:15:17 <luke-jr> it does simplify amount entry at least
 348 2012-03-11 03:15:24 <luke-jr> tcatm: no, that would be evil
 349 2012-03-11 03:15:48 <luke-jr> zero reason to omit TBC
 350 2012-03-11 03:15:56 <[Tycho]> Where is the "TBC stuff" ?
 351 2012-03-11 03:15:58 <luke-jr> it'd just be more mindless bigotry
 352 2012-03-11 03:16:23 <luke-jr> https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin/commit/69850957c238b2954c2dd0c941ef111334cf54e1
 353 2012-03-11 03:18:42 <[Tycho]> Do anyone remembers the bug when old client accepted duplicate inputs in TX
 354 2012-03-11 03:18:43 <[Tycho]> ?
 355 2012-03-11 03:19:58 <sipa> [Tycho]: yes
 356 2012-03-11 03:20:25 <[Tycho]> Where exactly is the code that doesn't allows accepting such TXes to memorypool ?
 357 2012-03-11 03:21:50 <sipa> [Tycho]: this is the commit that introduced that check: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/33208fb5575d76a19163e830617eaaf32dbacda8
 358 2012-03-11 03:23:01 <[Tycho]> Thanks.
 359 2012-03-11 03:23:08 <tcatm> Can someone send a few coins to mfpMcLEExnHFeP12CsY34MbrVR1G8GAxE7 ?
 360 2012-03-11 03:24:04 <sipa> tcatm: how many?
 361 2012-03-11 03:24:34 <Samuel> I can send ya 0.03, lol
 362 2012-03-11 03:24:51 <sipa> I have 4700 tnBTC
 363 2012-03-11 03:25:13 <Samuel> tnBTC? Now whats that?
 364 2012-03-11 03:25:22 <tcatm> Doesn't matter how much. I just want to see whether the Qt signal to update the QLabel works :)
 365 2012-03-11 03:25:22 <sipa> testnet bitcoin
 366 2012-03-11 03:25:46 <luke-jr> tcatm: sent you 1 ᵇTBC
 367 2012-03-11 03:25:50 <tcatm> Thanks!
 368 2012-03-11 03:25:59 <sipa> tcatm: sent you some
 369 2012-03-11 03:26:15 <luke-jr> hmm
 370 2012-03-11 03:26:24 mizerydearia has joined
 371 2012-03-11 03:26:28 <luke-jr> I presume it's intentional that the "Send" confirmation prompt always uses BTC, regardless of selected unit?
 372 2012-03-11 03:26:36 <tcatm> Oh, it looks like currentBalance will only update with confirmations.
 373 2012-03-11 03:26:38 <Samuel> Ok, so how do you use these "fake" bitcoins?
 374 2012-03-11 03:26:50 <sipa> Samuel: run the client with option -testnet
 375 2012-03-11 03:27:04 <sipa> it's a completely parallel world, only the coins are worthless
 376 2012-03-11 03:27:23 <luke-jr> … and difficulty has weird rules
 377 2012-03-11 03:27:27 <Samuel> Ah, I see. great way to explain it
 378 2012-03-11 03:28:02 <tcatm> What's the blockrate on testnet?
 379 2012-03-11 03:28:52 <tcatm> Yay. it works! :)
 380 2012-03-11 03:29:00 <sipa> tcatm: undefined.
 381 2012-03-11 03:30:08 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert10.png Balance now updates :)
 382 2012-03-11 03:30:28 <luke-jr> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/929
 383 2012-03-11 03:30:59 <Samuel> I'll get you some other icons to use other than those, they're kinda ugly
 384 2012-03-11 03:31:03 <sipa> luke-jr: find me a significant number of users that care about it.
 385 2012-03-11 03:31:20 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 386 2012-03-11 03:31:27 <luke-jr> sipa: the point is to grow adoption of Bitcoin by providing another reason for people to use it
 387 2012-03-11 03:31:45 <luke-jr> sipa: also, zero effect on people who don't use it
 388 2012-03-11 03:31:54 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: but bitcoin is already adopted by you.
 389 2012-03-11 03:31:57 <sipa> agree, but non-zero effect on the code size
 390 2012-03-11 03:32:22 <sipa> and no i do not believe bitcoin's adoption will be increased by hordes of tonal fans suddenly because of this
 391 2012-03-11 03:32:50 forsetifox has joined
 392 2012-03-11 03:32:51 <tcatm> Anyone have some time to compile https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin/tree/new-gui and see whether the Sidebar breaks with different styles or even on different platforms like OSX and windows?
 393 2012-03-11 03:33:42 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 929 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/929>
 394 2012-03-11 03:38:00 <luke-jr> sipa: would tonal+dozenal be enough people?
 395 2012-03-11 03:38:11 <tcatm> No :)
 396 2012-03-11 03:39:45 <neofutur> somments and pull requests welcome on https://github.com/neofutur/bitcoin_simple_php_tools
 397 2012-03-11 03:39:49 <neofutur> http://bitcoin.gw.gd/bitcoin_simple_php_tools/imageprice/pricetobtc.png?usdprice=100
 398 2012-03-11 03:39:56 <XMPPwocky> nothing says secure like PHP
 399 2012-03-11 03:40:09 <neofutur> http://bitcoin.gw.gd/bitcoin_simple_php_tools/imageprice/pricetobtc.txt.php?eurprice=100
 400 2012-03-11 03:41:10 <XMPPwocky> bitcoin.gw.gd/bitcoin_simple_php_tools/textprice/pricetobtc.txt.php?usdprice=<script>alert("hi");</script> that was easy.
 401 2012-03-11 03:41:11 <neofutur> ( still have to work the look of the image :P but it works )
 402 2012-03-11 03:41:39 <neofutur> XMPPwocky: this is not working
 403 2012-03-11 03:41:46 <neofutur> just saying "bad price"
 404 2012-03-11 03:42:14 <neofutur> or I missed something ?
 405 2012-03-11 03:42:22 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 406 2012-03-11 03:42:27 <neofutur> anyone see a js alert ?
 407 2012-03-11 03:42:45 <XMPPwocky> woops
 408 2012-03-11 03:43:07 <neofutur> but feel free to report any real security problems on https://github.com/neofutur/bitcoin_simple_php_tools
 409 2012-03-11 03:43:16 <tcatm> Samuel: Where do you think should we move the statusbar icons?
 410 2012-03-11 03:43:59 <Samuel> tcatm: What icons are you referring to?
 411 2012-03-11 03:44:52 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert10.png bottom right
 412 2012-03-11 03:45:19 <Samuel> oh those.
 413 2012-03-11 03:45:25 <Samuel> brb
 414 2012-03-11 03:45:55 JRWR has joined
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 417 2012-03-11 03:47:39 JRWR has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 418 2012-03-11 03:47:46 [7] has joined
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 420 2012-03-11 03:47:54 <Samuel> THe only place I can think of is the sidebar, but they might look good staying at the bottom if they were apart of a bar at the bottom instead of just being there. I'll mock it up, one sec
 421 2012-03-11 03:48:24 trentzb has joined
 422 2012-03-11 03:48:27 JRWR has joined
 423 2012-03-11 03:52:54 h4ckm3th32nd has joined
 424 2012-03-11 03:54:09 <Samuel> tcatm: http://cl.ly/2J2n2F3i2R0V2y2j190u Thats where they should go
 425 2012-03-11 03:54:51 <Samuel> tcatm: Should I get some icons for the signal bars and checkmark to match the rest?
 426 2012-03-11 03:55:31 <Samuel> brb
 427 2012-03-11 03:55:36 <tcatm> Hmm, there a lot of icons to replace.
 428 2012-03-11 03:57:46 <Samuel> Like an icon for one bar and another for two bars so on and so forth?
 429 2012-03-11 03:57:48 trentzb has left ("Leaving.")
 430 2012-03-11 03:57:57 josephcp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 431 2012-03-11 03:58:05 <tcatm> Yep. And a spinning double arrow when syncing the chain.
 432 2012-03-11 03:58:23 josephcp has joined
 433 2012-03-11 03:58:37 <tcatm> https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin/tree/new-gui/src/qt/res/icons These are all icons used.
 434 2012-03-11 03:58:38 <Samuel> Are those just the default that Qt has?
 435 2012-03-11 03:59:13 <tcatm> No, those are the ones Bitcoin uses.
 436 2012-03-11 03:59:35 <Samuel> yeah, thats a lot to replace... darn
 437 2012-03-11 04:06:10 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 440 2012-03-11 04:14:57 skeledrew has joined
 441 2012-03-11 04:16:38 <etotheipi_> question about Satoshi networking...
 442 2012-03-11 04:16:59 <etotheipi_> I used to send the satoshi client a tx, then send it a getdata request for the txhash to see if it was accepted
 443 2012-03-11 04:17:30 olp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 444 2012-03-11 04:17:52 <etotheipi_> it's my way of checking whether the Satoshi client accepted, and thus forwarded, my transaction from Armory
 445 2012-03-11 04:18:35 <etotheipi_> recently, it stopped doing it: it does accept and forward the transaction, but does not reply to the getdata request
 446 2012-03-11 04:19:11 <etotheipi_> in debug.log, I see "AcceptToMemoryPool(): accepted 6c48189779", then "received getdata for: tx 6c481897797a73f6ac26" 6 times, then "socket closed"
 447 2012-03-11 04:19:40 <etotheipi_> "disconnecting node 127.0.0.1:51666"
 448 2012-03-11 04:20:13 <etotheipi_> from Armory, I see that the getdata message was sent, but I never received a reply from the Satoshi client
 449 2012-03-11 04:20:50 <etotheipi_> why would it not reply?  and why would it disconnect localhost (I thought it wasn't supposed to do that)
 450 2012-03-11 04:21:07 <etotheipi_> sipa, gmaxwell, luke-jr... I'm baffled by this, maybe one of you can help
 451 2012-03-11 04:21:20 <sipa> The disconnecting is strange, it could be anti-DDoS, but it should report that in debug.log
 452 2012-03-11 04:21:44 <etotheipi_> it appears that other users are reporting the same thing
 453 2012-03-11 04:21:51 <sipa> Maybe it doesn't reply to getdata because it thinks/knows you already know about that transaction.
 454 2012-03-11 04:22:33 <etotheipi_> is there a higher-debugging I can enable and try again?
 455 2012-03-11 04:23:09 <sipa> no
 456 2012-03-11 04:23:25 <tcatm> Samuel: Icons moved. Doesn't look that good, though. http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert11.png
 457 2012-03-11 04:23:56 <[Tycho]> "Warning: This is a warning" :)
 458 2012-03-11 04:24:06 <etotheipi_> okay, I'll see if I can revert back to an older version that I know worked... and see if the debug log looks any different
 459 2012-03-11 04:24:13 <userjgg> samuel: don't you think the numbers on recent transactions should be smaller in size than total on the wallet?
 460 2012-03-11 04:25:50 <Samuel> userjgg: yeah, I like how I have it from my snap: http://cl.ly/2J2n2F3i2R0V2y2j190u
 461 2012-03-11 04:25:52 <sipa> etotheipi_: i know of no changes to that mechanism
 462 2012-03-11 04:26:21 <Samuel> tcatm: Yeah, not sure about it.
 463 2012-03-11 04:26:55 <Samuel> I guess we keep it on the bottom right
 464 2012-03-11 04:27:38 <userjgg> samuel: i think is not good be in the same size
 465 2012-03-11 04:27:40 Mango-chan has quit ()
 466 2012-03-11 04:27:42 <tcatm> I'd like to remove the statusbar..
 467 2012-03-11 04:27:52 <neofutur> dynamic btc prices for forum posts :
 468 2012-03-11 04:27:54 <userjgg> should be smaller
 469 2012-03-11 04:27:54 <neofutur> [img]http://bitcoin.gw.gd/bitcoin_simple_php_tools/imageprice/pricetobtc.png?usdprice=350[/img]
 470 2012-03-11 04:28:08 <neofutur> example on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1687.msg26007#msg26007
 471 2012-03-11 04:28:30 <neofutur> your prices will change following the bitcoin price
 472 2012-03-11 04:28:50 <Samuel> userjgg: So you think they should be the same size?
 473 2012-03-11 04:28:54 <neofutur> comments and pull requests welcome on https://github.com/neofutur/bitcoin_simple_php_tools
 474 2012-03-11 04:30:16 <userjgg> samuel: i think the numbers on recent transaction box should be smaller that the wallet box
 475 2012-03-11 04:30:17 <etotheipi_> sipa, okay it looks like the old version still works, so I'll look closer at what changed (though I didn't think I changed any of that code...
 476 2012-03-11 04:30:27 <userjgg> than
 477 2012-03-11 04:30:41 <Samuel> userjgg: oh I see what you mean now
 478 2012-03-11 04:30:52 <userjgg> the 100.000...
 479 2012-03-11 04:31:04 <sipa> etotheipi_: which is the old version?
 480 2012-03-11 04:31:43 <etotheipi_> sorry, I meant old version of armory
 481 2012-03-11 04:32:00 <userjgg> samuel:the total of bitcoins on the wallet should be in evidence.
 482 2012-03-11 04:32:06 <sipa> etotheipi_: ah, ok
 483 2012-03-11 04:32:53 <etotheipi_> sipa, I actually see the exact same thing in the debug log:  "AcceptToMemoryPool(): accepted 826978bbb9" followed by 7 instances of "received getdata for: tx 826978bbb9923b1aaee2', then "socket closed" and "disconnecting"
 484 2012-03-11 04:33:07 <etotheipi_> but somehow Armory got the tx packed this time
 485 2012-03-11 04:33:40 <sipa> sure it is not armory that is closing the socket?
 486 2012-03-11 04:34:00 <etotheipi_> sipa, I suppose it's possible, though I never intended to
 487 2012-03-11 04:34:24 <etotheipi_> but what's weird is that I added debug output to the beginng of ever "dataReceived" call and "sendMessage" call
 488 2012-03-11 04:34:26 <userjgg> samuel: on recent transaction box should have the icons of < and >
 489 2012-03-11 04:34:44 <etotheipi_> sipa, I definitely only sent the getdata request once, and did receive the tx packet reply
 490 2012-03-11 04:34:50 <etotheipi_> but the debug log doesn't indicate it
 491 2012-03-11 04:34:54 <etotheipi_> (on the satoshi client)
 492 2012-03-11 04:34:55 <userjgg> samuel: btc comming and going
 493 2012-03-11 04:35:32 <etotheipi_> the satoshi client reports 7 getdata requests, then a disconnect, but never records having sent a tx packet
 494 2012-03-11 04:35:41 <userjgg> samuel: the icon of comming in orange color
 495 2012-03-11 04:36:11 <userjgg> samuel: and the going icon gray
 496 2012-03-11 04:36:18 <Samuel> hmm, that might just be confusing to users
 497 2012-03-11 04:36:21 <sipa> etotheipi_: it doesn't report that, it seems
 498 2012-03-11 04:36:40 <userjgg> samuel: hum
 499 2012-03-11 04:37:08 <Samuel> I was thinking "You sent ------" "You received ------"
 500 2012-03-11 04:37:11 <sipa> etotheipi_: and it always should, if that transaction is in its relay memory
 501 2012-03-11 04:37:39 <etotheipi_> sipa, ugh... well at least I have code that works, so I can compare directly what I changed... perhaps I'll find a subtle, eduacational networking nuance
 502 2012-03-11 04:37:51 <userjgg> samuel: represented by name or icon?
 503 2012-03-11 04:38:07 <etotheipi_> sipa, though the getdata packets look identical, besides the checksum and the txhash
 504 2012-03-11 04:38:15 <Samuel> the text would say, not sure if I'd like an icon
 505 2012-03-11 04:38:34 <userjgg> samuel: understand
 506 2012-03-11 04:38:39 <sipa> etotheipi_: hmm
 507 2012-03-11 04:38:49 <sipa> etotheipi_: by the way, i got the HMAC-SHA512 key derivation implemented and unit tested
 508 2012-03-11 04:38:54 <etotheipi_> SOB
 509 2012-03-11 04:39:03 <etotheipi_> it looks like endianness got switched somewhere
 510 2012-03-11 04:39:10 <sipa> in your code?
 511 2012-03-11 04:39:17 <etotheipi_> yes
 512 2012-03-11 04:39:18 <userjgg> samuel: it's good
 513 2012-03-11 04:39:22 <sipa> bummer :)
 514 2012-03-11 04:39:41 <Samuel> userjgg: What's good?
 515 2012-03-11 04:40:06 <userjgg> samuel: only names like you sent, you received
 516 2012-03-11 04:40:19 <etotheipi_> wtf...
 517 2012-03-11 04:40:36 <etotheipi_> or, at least it printed to console differently...
 518 2012-03-11 04:40:59 <Samuel> userjgg: Ahh yes,  I'm changing some things. I'll send you the new snap when its done.
 519 2012-03-11 04:41:09 <userjgg> ok
 520 2012-03-11 04:41:33 <etotheipi_> I HATE ENDIANNESS IN BITCOIN
 521 2012-03-11 04:44:04 olp has joined
 522 2012-03-11 04:45:38 <sipa> there, there..
 523 2012-03-11 04:47:34 <etotheipi_> sipa, it looks to me like the hash works in the getdata packet when in little-endian
 524 2012-03-11 04:47:41 <etotheipi_> but that doesn't sound right... I might've just mixed things up
 525 2012-03-11 04:50:29 Joric has joined
 526 2012-03-11 04:50:29 Joric has quit (Changing host)
 527 2012-03-11 04:50:29 Joric has joined
 528 2012-03-11 04:51:08 <etotheipi_> even more mysteriously, I see not a single line of code changed between the working and non-working versions that has to do with endianness...
 529 2012-03-11 04:51:17 <etotheipi_> okay, my problem now, thanks for listening :)
 530 2012-03-11 04:54:52 <Joric> etotheipi_!
 531 2012-03-11 04:55:52 <Joric> etotheipi_, are you going to rewrite blockchain loader without loading it completely into ram
 532 2012-03-11 04:56:32 <Samuel> userjgg: http://cl.ly/0s06081E342q2N0C460p I was thinking green or red bars under the transactions for receiving and sending
 533 2012-03-11 04:56:48 <Samuel> Got to go. See ya!
 534 2012-03-11 04:57:02 <userjgg> samuel: i'll tell this now
 535 2012-03-11 04:57:02 Samuel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 536 2012-03-11 04:57:39 <Joric> i was trying simple blockchain scanner https://github.com/joric/pyblockchain it takes ~10 minutes to parse while loading takes only 20 seconds :( i guess all because of disk IO
 537 2012-03-11 04:58:37 <Joric> i mean i may load those 1.2 gb into ram in 20 seconds, but parsing it from disk takes ages
 538 2012-03-11 04:59:38 <Joric> maybe it would be faster to load/parse by 100-250 mb chunks or something
 539 2012-03-11 04:59:53 <etotheipi_> Joric...I don't follow entirely
 540 2012-03-11 05:00:05 <etotheipi_> Armory currently loads the blockchain into RAM in one giant chunk
 541 2012-03-11 05:00:20 <etotheipi_> then it can scan for new address balances in less than 1 s
 542 2012-03-11 05:00:29 <Joric> etotheipi_, it doesn't work on 2gb machines already
 543 2012-03-11 05:00:42 <etotheipi_> if it's reading from disk, it takes 20-60 sec depending on your disk IO
 544 2012-03-11 05:01:08 <phantomcircuit> armory is quickly going to stop working
 545 2012-03-11 05:01:09 <etotheipi_> I will be rewriting it to mmap the file... which one machines with enough RAM, will take the same (nearly instantaneous, after loading)
 546 2012-03-11 05:01:10 <phantomcircuit> as in
 547 2012-03-11 05:01:14 <phantomcircuit> like next month
 548 2012-03-11 05:01:16 <etotheipi_> phantomcircuit, I agree
 549 2012-03-11 05:01:35 <phantomcircuit> etotheipi_, what is armory written in?
 550 2012-03-11 05:01:45 <etotheipi_> phantomcircuit, Armory's blockchain scanning was originally written as a data structures optimization exercise for fun
 551 2012-03-11 05:01:47 <sipa> etotheipi_: what if the client crashes or get killed during a write?
 552 2012-03-11 05:02:07 <etotheipi_> sipa, right now Armory doesn't write anything to blk0001.dat
 553 2012-03-11 05:02:17 <sipa> ah, of course
 554 2012-03-11 05:02:40 <etotheipi_> I will be re-writing the blockchain scanning to not load everythign into RAM
 555 2012-03-11 05:02:55 <etotheipi_> and keep some extra data around for wallets so it can find data quickly
 556 2012-03-11 05:03:06 <tcatm> What do you think about moving the "downloading blocks" progressbar to the sidebar?
 557 2012-03-11 05:03:38 <phantomcircuit> etotheipi_, a hint, in general there is little reason to worry about the integrity of the block chain on the local node so long as you can identify corruption
 558 2012-03-11 05:03:43 <phantomcircuit> (which is easy)
 559 2012-03-11 05:04:17 <etotheipi_> phantomcircuit, I do have a blockchain integrity checker
 560 2012-03-11 05:04:34 <phantomcircuit> i think you misunderstood me
 561 2012-03-11 05:04:43 <etotheipi_> I haven't figured out exactly how I'm going to do all this yet... but at the moment it will be a full rescan on every load (as now), but only mmap'ing it
 562 2012-03-11 05:04:48 <Joric> i'm thinking of writting a cached file class to load/parse using 500mb portions
 563 2012-03-11 05:05:13 <phantomcircuit> Joric, dont it'll be slower than just relying on the OS's page cache
 564 2012-03-11 05:05:23 <etotheipi_> in fact, my long-term plan may be to completely re-do it
 565 2012-03-11 05:05:24 <phantomcircuit> since you'll end up with duplicate caching
 566 2012-03-11 05:06:10 <phantomcircuit> etotheipi_, can you reliably verify transactions
 567 2012-03-11 05:06:52 <Joric> phantomcircuit, dunno why but i may load those 1.2 gb in ram in 20 seconds but when i'm parsing sequentally it takes 10 minutes
 568 2012-03-11 05:07:16 <etotheipi_> phantomcircuit, I don't know what you mean by "verify"...  I don't do full verification, I let the Satoshi client do that for me
 569 2012-03-11 05:07:33 <etotheipi_> but I do check leading zeros on headers and make sure all hashes match the way I expect
 570 2012-03-11 05:07:35 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: because it's just an mmap it's not actually getting loaded
 571 2012-03-11 05:07:36 <phantomcircuit> Joric, when you say load into ram, do you mean simply reading the file sequentially into ram using a small number of read() calls?
 572 2012-03-11 05:07:49 <Joric> jrmithdobbs, oh
 573 2012-03-11 05:07:49 <jrmithdobbs> or that
 574 2012-03-11 05:07:55 <jrmithdobbs> one of the two is the problem ;p
 575 2012-03-11 05:07:56 <phantomcircuit> etotheipi_, oh so you dont do the hard part...
 576 2012-03-11 05:07:59 <phantomcircuit> yeah
 577 2012-03-11 05:08:25 <etotheipi_> phantomcircuit, not yet
 578 2012-03-11 05:08:32 <phantomcircuit> Joric, load the block chain into memory
 579 2012-03-11 05:08:38 <phantomcircuit> then test parsing time
 580 2012-03-11 05:08:48 <phantomcircuit> you want to force the file into the page cache
 581 2012-03-11 05:08:57 <etotheipi_> but i have everythign in place, I *could* do it, but that could be a HUGE investment of time, that's not necessary until I cut the umbilical cord to the Satoshi client
 582 2012-03-11 05:09:00 <phantomcircuit> just do something like dd if=blk0001.dat of=/dev/null
 583 2012-03-11 05:09:34 <etotheipi_> Joric, the way Armory does it, it literally does one giant block copy into RAM
 584 2012-03-11 05:09:38 <phantomcircuit> etotheipi_, i suspect you are vastly under estimating the complexity of doing full transaction verification as well as the enormous performance problem that hitting disk is
 585 2012-03-11 05:09:41 <phantomcircuit> but whatever carry on
 586 2012-03-11 05:09:55 <etotheipi_> phantomcircuit, that's exactly why I haven't done it yet
 587 2012-03-11 05:10:10 <phantomcircuit> to be completely honest
 588 2012-03-11 05:10:29 <phantomcircuit> armory seems like it's a waste of time as there is a clear and obvious expiration date
 589 2012-03-11 05:10:41 <etotheipi_> phantomcircuit, that's a pretty narrow view
 590 2012-03-11 05:10:50 <phantomcircuit> you're basically racing against average device memory space
 591 2012-03-11 05:10:52 <etotheipi_> phantomcircuit, if I died today, you would be right
 592 2012-03-11 05:11:18 <etotheipi_> but I'm not sitting idly by... I'm aware that I'm running out of time to upgrade Armory
 593 2012-03-11 05:11:32 <phantomcircuit> etotheipi_, just add an rpc call to bitcoin to get the balance at an address where bitcoind has just the address
 594 2012-03-11 05:11:36 <etotheipi_> it's been in my plan.. and I'd hardly consider the app to be a waste of time
 595 2012-03-11 05:11:38 <phantomcircuit> it would be order of magnitude easier
 596 2012-03-11 05:12:10 <jrmithdobbs> what are we talking about exactly
 597 2012-03-11 05:12:12 <Joric> etotheipi_, you don't have and additional hash map for tx hashes, do you?
 598 2012-03-11 05:12:19 <etotheipi_> phantomcircuit, I'd have to be retarded not to recognize what you're talking about
 599 2012-03-11 05:12:31 <etotheipi_> and I'd have to be retarded to believe that somehow it's sustainable
 600 2012-03-11 05:12:41 <etotheipi_> I never said this was the end-all
 601 2012-03-11 05:12:57 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, armory is a pseudo client, basically he loads the entire block chain into ram and doesn't verify it, then uses the information to produce transactions
 602 2012-03-11 05:14:07 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: best (worst) of both worlds, split it all out to individual files in a huge hardlink tree and mmap is necessary O(n) lookups and the OS does all your caching for you. (remember to adjust ulimit -n) ;p
 603 2012-03-11 05:14:20 <jrmithdobbs> s/is necc/as/
 604 2012-03-11 05:14:22 <Joric> i'm going to write my own stream handler and finetune the ram/disk part of it )
 605 2012-03-11 05:14:28 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, lolllllll
 606 2012-03-11 05:14:37 userjgg has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 607 2012-03-11 05:14:39 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: it'd actually work pretty well depending on how you chunked it
 608 2012-03-11 05:14:49 <jrmithdobbs> so long as you managed open fds sanely
 609 2012-03-11 05:14:55 <Joric> and i'm not going to keep blockchain in ram, i'm going to use hash maps for addresses / transactions
 610 2012-03-11 05:15:01 <jrmithdobbs> way over complex tho
 611 2012-03-11 05:15:29 graingert has joined
 612 2012-03-11 05:16:20 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, actually
 613 2012-03-11 05:16:32 <phantomcircuit> sqlite with fsync completely off doesn't perform poorly
 614 2012-03-11 05:17:10 <phantomcircuit> the performance of bitcoind can be massively improved if you realize that you dont really need to guarantee the integrity of your own blockchain
 615 2012-03-11 05:17:16 <phantomcircuit> as you can always check it against the networks
 616 2012-03-11 05:17:25 <Joric> tried sqlite, found out you have to call commit() as seldom as possible )
 617 2012-03-11 05:17:37 <phantomcircuit> Joric, yeah commit causes an fsync
 618 2012-03-11 05:17:43 <phantomcircuit> a modern hdd will give you
 619 2012-03-11 05:17:48 <phantomcircuit> MAYBE 20 fsync calls/second
 620 2012-03-11 05:18:24 <phantomcircuit> so take everything your running combine that with fsync's from page cache being flushed and well you have maybe like 7 of them for sqlite
 621 2012-03-11 05:18:40 <Joric> not sure sqlite is perfectly good for blockchain bsd db seems fine
 622 2012-03-11 05:19:35 <Joric> there's no indexing by address though
 623 2012-03-11 05:20:12 <phantomcircuit> sqlite is perfectly capable if you know the gotchas in bitcoin
 624 2012-03-11 05:20:45 <jrmithdobbs> doesn't genjix have it working?
 625 2012-03-11 05:21:01 <jrmithdobbs> with libbitcoin
 626 2012-03-11 05:21:28 <phantomcircuit> he's got a postgresql interface
 627 2012-03-11 05:21:47 <phantomcircuit> he isn't batching enough so it isn't that fast
 628 2012-03-11 05:21:52 <phantomcircuit> but it could be with some effort
 629 2012-03-11 05:22:12 <phantomcircuit> when there is a block reorg that results in a TON of updates
 630 2012-03-11 05:22:21 <phantomcircuit> and iirc he was calling commit after each one
 631 2012-03-11 05:23:17 <jrmithdobbs> ya, large reorgs need to drop the locking until complete and then verify
 632 2012-03-11 05:23:43 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: ?
 633 2012-03-11 05:24:02 <phantomcircuit> well im going to go back to my HFT engine
 634 2012-03-11 05:24:03 <phantomcircuit> ;)
 635 2012-03-11 05:24:12 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: if stored as sql
 636 2012-03-11 05:24:20 <sipa> ah
 637 2012-03-11 05:24:37 graingert has left ()
 638 2012-03-11 05:24:44 <jrmithdobbs> but the rdbms does the "verify" step anyways
 639 2012-03-11 05:24:44 <Joric> for now i'm just looking for the fastest way to reindex blockchain
 640 2012-03-11 05:25:16 <sipa> Joric: in the satoshi client, or what?
 641 2012-03-11 05:25:46 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: err, that was supposed to be 'locking model', eg, a reorg would be one big commit in sql
 642 2012-03-11 05:25:51 <Joric> as in binary concatenation of blocks
 643 2012-03-11 05:26:02 <Joric> not really just want to gather some stats
 644 2012-03-11 05:26:44 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: it currently is in the satoshi client too, and it shouldn't be (always)
 645 2012-03-11 05:26:47 <Joric> build a net of addresses, etc
 646 2012-03-11 05:26:48 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, yeah that's what i was telling him
 647 2012-03-11 05:27:19 <phantomcircuit> the python client i was working on did that properly
 648 2012-03-11 05:27:32 <phantomcircuit> but there is some bug in the reorg that i cant be asked to track down
 649 2012-03-11 05:27:33 <phantomcircuit> so
 650 2012-03-11 05:27:36 <phantomcircuit> whatever
 651 2012-03-11 05:29:07 <Joric> maybe i just need to build addrindex.dat along with blkindex.dat )
 652 2012-03-11 05:29:24 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: that's in the wallet?
 653 2012-03-11 05:29:39 <Joric> the global one
 654 2012-03-11 05:29:50 <jrmithdobbs> what
 655 2012-03-11 05:30:03 <jrmithdobbs> oh, nm
 656 2012-03-11 05:30:33 <tcatm> Does anybody know why all this connect() lines where there (effectively showing the main window when switching tabs)? https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin/commit/92b217d0dabf38bab2469635ba938bc7c49b616e
 657 2012-03-11 05:39:15 Samuel has joined
 658 2012-03-11 05:39:24 <Samuel> I'm back
 659 2012-03-11 05:42:28 <tcatm> Great :)
 660 2012-03-11 05:42:47 <tcatm> We still need to figure out where to put those icons :)
 661 2012-03-11 05:43:23 <Samuel> Yes
 662 2012-03-11 05:44:19 <forsetifox> Get rid of them and have a thingy that slides down and displays useful numbers underneath the buttons on the left.
 663 2012-03-11 05:44:33 <tcatm> "slides down"?
 664 2012-03-11 05:44:43 <forsetifox> Click button. Numbers appear!
 665 2012-03-11 05:44:54 <tcatm> Good idea.
 666 2012-03-11 05:45:22 <tcatm> It should still show small icons, though.
 667 2012-03-11 05:50:13 <tcatm> Is it possible to unlock the wallet using the GUI?
 668 2012-03-11 05:52:58 <Samuel> Maybe this looks better: http://cl.ly/1j2u1p0x1h3h2M0C3k26
 669 2012-03-11 05:53:05 <sipa> tcatm: no
 670 2012-03-11 05:53:09 forsetifox has left ()
 671 2012-03-11 05:53:16 <sipa> only as-needed
 672 2012-03-11 05:54:14 <tcatm> I see. If I unlock using RPC will it be unlocked for the GUI, too?
 673 2012-03-11 05:54:22 <sipa> yes
 674 2012-03-11 05:54:44 <sipa> (though maybe the GUI is not smart enough, and still asks for a password, not sure)
 675 2012-03-11 05:56:57 <tcatm> Looks like it is smart enough.
 676 2012-03-11 05:57:31 <tcatm> Samuel: We need a good pair of lock icons. One indicating locked state and one for unlocked wallet.
 677 2012-03-11 05:58:34 <Joric> Samuel, 12k bitcoins look great, who's wallet it is?
 678 2012-03-11 05:59:09 <Samuel> Its fake lol (123456789)
 679 2012-03-11 05:59:21 <tcatm> Joric: It's basically QLabe("123,123.123456789 BTC"); :D
 680 2012-03-11 06:00:08 <Samuel> tcatm: So the locked or unlock icon would go next to the checkmark and signal icons?
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 683 2012-03-11 06:00:59 <tcatm> Samuel: Maybe. What do you think about putting them right to MY WALLET?
 684 2012-03-11 06:01:29 <Samuel> Let me understand what these icons mean first
 685 2012-03-11 06:01:55 <tcatm> Locked = Wallet encrypted and passphrase not entered
 686 2012-03-11 06:02:27 <tcatm> Unlocked = Wallet encrypted but passphrase entered so coins can be spent without entering the passphrase
 687 2012-03-11 06:02:36 <Samuel> I see thanks
 688 2012-03-11 06:03:03 <Samuel> I think a lock icon should go to the right of any of the tabs it applys to
 689 2012-03-11 06:03:31 <Samuel> Since it affects the send tab it would be grayed out with the lock icon
 690 2012-03-11 06:03:54 <Samuel> And same with other tabs
 691 2012-03-11 06:03:58 <tcatm> It also applies to the RPC server.
 692 2012-03-11 06:04:08 localhost has joined
 693 2012-03-11 06:04:49 <Samuel> I don't know what that is... but I think you get my point
 694 2012-03-11 06:04:51 <tcatm> The current workflow is: Click 'send coins', enter address and amount, click send, enter passphrase, coins get sent.
 695 2012-03-11 06:05:37 toffoo has joined
 696 2012-03-11 06:06:10 <Samuel> ok
 697 2012-03-11 06:08:04 chk` has joined
 698 2012-03-11 06:08:45 <Samuel> gosh Photoshop keeps quitting on me. I'm going to restart my computer, brb
 699 2012-03-11 06:09:59 Samuel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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 702 2012-03-11 06:14:28 <Samuel> I'm back again
 703 2012-03-11 06:14:36 <tcatm> sipa: Is it possible to test warnings on testnet?
 704 2012-03-11 06:15:01 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert12.png no more statusbar!
 705 2012-03-11 06:16:32 <Samuel> The loading bar is cramped aganst the edges of the window, give it some padding on all sides
 706 2012-03-11 06:17:12 <tcatm> That's just temporary because it had to go somewhere. :)
 707 2012-03-11 06:19:53 <Samuel> oh ok
 708 2012-03-11 06:20:24 <tcatm> Maybe we could combine it with the spinning arrows icon in the sidebar.
 709 2012-03-11 06:20:58 <Samuel> I have a new green check icon, I guess I'll keep making these until all of them match our new design. I'll send it to you
 710 2012-03-11 06:21:32 swulf-- has joined
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 712 2012-03-11 06:23:14 <Joric> how about calculating progressbar from what has been loaded / left to load not as now
 713 2012-03-11 06:23:44 <Samuel> brb
 714 2012-03-11 06:24:29 <tcatm> Joric: Isn't that how it works now?
 715 2012-03-11 06:24:55 <Joric> i guess not it starts from zero every launch
 716 2012-03-11 06:25:31 <tcatm> Nope. Recent versions start from 99% IIRC.
 717 2012-03-11 06:30:03 <Samuel> back
 718 2012-03-11 06:36:42 <Samuel> tcatm: Did you get my green check replacement? (It's to replace this one https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin/blob/new-gui/src/qt/res/icons/synced.png)
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 726 2012-03-11 06:46:11 <wumpus> sipa: the gui will notice when the wallet is unlocked through RPC, and update the lock icon
 727 2012-03-11 06:47:50 chk` is now known as chk`afk
 728 2012-03-11 06:49:04 <Samuel> wumpus: What about just not displaying the "unlocked" icon when its unlocked? The user would know its locked if is.
 729 2012-03-11 06:49:42 olp has joined
 730 2012-03-11 06:49:45 <Samuel> *would know its UNlocked if it is
 731 2012-03-11 06:49:53 <wumpus> there are three states: unencrypted (no icon), encrypted and locked, and encrypted and unlocked
 732 2012-03-11 06:50:23 <Samuel> Ahh, ok. That makes sense
 733 2012-03-11 06:50:58 <wumpus> encrypted and locked, and encrypted and unlocked have an icon... so you can still see the wallet is encrypted even though it is temporarily unlocked
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 736 2012-03-11 07:04:48 <wumpus> tcatm: looks nice
 737 2012-03-11 07:07:01 chk`afk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 738 2012-03-11 07:14:50 <Samuel> Still here tcatm?
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 740 2012-03-11 07:15:01 <Samuel> I have lock and unlock icons
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 775 2012-03-11 10:03:37 <UukGoblin> I'm trying to remind myself how merged mining worked...
 776 2012-03-11 10:03:44 <UukGoblin> does namecoin have to look at bitcoin blocks at all?
 777 2012-03-11 10:04:32 <UukGoblin> if it's what I think it is, i.e. you try to find a target bitcoin block with namecoin data in the coinbase... what happens when there's more than 1 aux chain? How does namecoin know what data is hashed in coinbase?
 778 2012-03-11 10:05:58 <UukGoblin> oh, and what's going on with BIP16/17 in the end?
 779 2012-03-11 10:06:05 <UukGoblin> (as a separate question)
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 783 2012-03-11 10:15:44 <neofutur> (12:01) < UukGoblin> does namecoin have to look at bitcoin blocks at all?
 784 2012-03-11 10:15:55 <neofutur> yes you need a bitcoind and a namecoind
 785 2012-03-11 10:16:07 <neofutur> you ll have more answers on #namecoin
 786 2012-03-11 10:16:22 <neofutur> https://github.com/vinced/namecoin/blob/mergedmine/contrib/merged-mine-proxy
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 789 2012-03-11 10:17:46 <UukGoblin> neofutur, I know what I need, I asked how does namecoin know what other altchains were mined
 790 2012-03-11 10:18:14 <UukGoblin> and does it actually have to look at bitcoin blocks - and if so, how does it connect to bitcoin?
 791 2012-03-11 10:18:54 <UukGoblin> I'm trying to understand how exactly does merged mining work, not just for namecoin but other chains too
 792 2012-03-11 10:19:02 <UukGoblin> oh - and is there a list of chain IDs somewhere?
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 796 2012-03-11 10:42:10 <denisx> since the deployment of the BIP30 patch I had 2 blocks not accepted by bitcoind, is that possible?
 797 2012-03-11 10:42:52 <Eliel> UukGoblin: As I understood it, the namecoin blocks are not necessarily valid bitcoin blocks since the difficulties differ.
 798 2012-03-11 10:43:44 <Eliel> UukGoblin: so, namecoin needs to understand bitcoin's blockformat enough to verify that the bitcoin block's hash that contains the namecoin block hash matches the difficulty.
 799 2012-03-11 10:55:48 <UukGoblin> Eliel, exactly, it needs to know that the namecoin block hash is included in the low-diff bitcoin block, right? But how does it know that, when the namecoin data is hashed with other chains' data in the coinbase?
 800 2012-03-11 10:57:54 <Graet> the winning share is submitted to both bitcoind and namecoind - afaik they dont need to talk to each other
 801 2012-03-11 10:58:24 <Graet> any other alt chain would have its shares submitted to its *coind
 802 2012-03-11 10:59:03 <UukGoblin> hrm yeah, but how can the *coind see that its data was in fact in the bitcoin low-diff block?
 803 2012-03-11 10:59:34 <UukGoblin> cause when you merkle-hash all the chains together, you get a unreadable hash in coinbase
 804 2012-03-11 10:59:49 <UukGoblin> what tells all the *coinds where their hash is in the auxchain merkle tree?
 805 2012-03-11 11:00:19 <UukGoblin> sorry, I probably should've asked that in the beginning
 806 2012-03-11 11:00:33 <UukGoblin> (but I wasn't sure how to formulate the question)
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 808 2012-03-11 11:15:31 <Eliel> UukGoblin: merged mined namecoin blocks obviously need to include all the data needed to verify them.
 809 2012-03-11 11:15:55 <Eliel> including merkle branches
 810 2012-03-11 11:17:32 <UukGoblin> right. So where could I find specs of this data, and how it's communicated? :-)
 811 2012-03-11 11:20:36 <Eliel> other than namecoin source code, I have no pointers to give for those questions :)
 812 2012-03-11 11:21:59 <UukGoblin> yeah, I was afraid it'd come to that ;-) ok, thanks anyway :-)
 813 2012-03-11 11:22:33 <UukGoblin> anyway it looks like the merged-mining-proxy needs some way of communicating data from other altchains back to namecoind
 814 2012-03-11 11:23:55 <Eliel> luke-jr should be pretty informed about it though. He might have a pointer or two to give. I think he said he coded merged mining support from the scratch for Eligius because he didn't like the existing code.
 815 2012-03-11 11:24:18 <UukGoblin> cool thanks :-)
 816 2012-03-11 11:28:30 <Eliel> UukGoblin: have you seen this yet? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merged_mining_specification
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 818 2012-03-11 11:32:33 <UukGoblin> Eliel, yeah
 819 2012-03-11 11:33:00 <neofutur> its really undomented. really : https://github.com/vinced/namecoin/blob/mergedmine/contrib/merged-mine-proxy
 820 2012-03-11 11:33:53 <UukGoblin> I'll have a look, thanks all :-)
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 822 2012-03-11 11:35:38 <Stary2001> Does the bitcoin Qt client do verification of blocks in another thread?
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 824 2012-03-11 11:36:00 <Stary2001> because my blockchain was downloading slowly and I had to up priority to fix it]
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 826 2012-03-11 11:36:31 <denisx> the slowest thing is the disk IO
 827 2012-03-11 11:37:08 <Stary2001> hm.. yeah i guess
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 851 2012-03-11 13:31:02 <Joric> i'm trying to reindex blockchain want to write my own hash map that would be faster than in STL (for finding transactions/addresses) what hash should i use? rehashing hash256^2 seems shady, should i use self-balancing trees or something?
 852 2012-03-11 13:37:05 <Zarutian> Joric: why not a trie?
 853 2012-03-11 13:39:43 <Zarutian> Joric: with adaptable length of the prefixes at each node.
 854 2012-03-11 13:40:40 <Joric> well, i'll try
 855 2012-03-11 13:41:08 <Joric> will check it against rb-tree in std::map
 856 2012-03-11 13:56:17 <Joric> linus delivers https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/3/8/495
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 859 2012-03-11 14:07:47 <sipa> tcatm: afaik gavin can create testnet alerts, yes
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 865 2012-03-11 14:40:07 <SpeedBus> heyy
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 870 2012-03-11 14:54:31 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 930 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/930>
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 879 2012-03-11 15:30:10 <TD> are there any forum moderators around?
 880 2012-03-11 15:35:18 <archo47> uhm no
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 884 2012-03-11 15:50:35 * Eliel wonders if this is simple enough of a fix to go into 0.6. It's just a bugfix afterall. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/928
 885 2012-03-11 15:51:33 <sipa> Eliel: I know little about Qt, so I can't review the code, but it sounds reasonable to merge for 0.6
 886 2012-03-11 15:52:38 <Eliel> I know about as little about Qt as you do I think :)
 887 2012-03-11 15:52:56 <Eliel> thankfully, that patch didn't need anything Qt specific.
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 889 2012-03-11 15:54:52 <denisx> why is the wallet.dat flushed with every new block?
 890 2012-03-11 15:57:38 <TD> the wallet contains the current chain head
 891 2012-03-11 15:58:06 <denisx> ah, ok
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 894 2012-03-11 15:58:36 <denisx> Flushed wallet.dat 284ms
 895 2012-03-11 15:58:49 <denisx> but that looks too long for just saving it
 896 2012-03-11 15:59:30 <Eliel> who knows what the bdb is doing.
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 899 2012-03-11 16:02:58 <lodewijkadlp> I'm going to be selling bitcoins in a user-friendly manner. Can someone advise upon wire-transfers and chargebacks within the EU and from elsewhere towards the EU? I might be willing to accept chargebacks if there's reasonable legal framework to handle them.
 900 2012-03-11 16:08:41 <etotheipi_> sipa, I got distracted yesterday and slid past your HMAC deterministic wallet comment
 901 2012-03-11 16:08:57 <etotheipi_> can you send me that unit test?   I do plan to implement it, or something close
 902 2012-03-11 16:09:47 <TD> lodewijkadlp: you will be running an exchange, in other words?
 903 2012-03-11 16:09:57 <sipa> etotheipi_: it's implemented here: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/blob/detwallet/src/test/detwallet_tests.cpp
 904 2012-03-11 16:10:11 <TD> lodewijkadlp: SEPA transfers can be reversed, as far as I know, eg if the source bank account was compromised.
 905 2012-03-11 16:10:20 <TD> lodewijkadlp: so it's dangerous and you will need good risk analysis and verification procedures
 906 2012-03-11 16:10:50 <lodewijkadlp> TD in a way. It will have more significant fee's and will not keep credit. Enter bitcoin address, enter money. Or vise versa. Done.
 907 2012-03-11 16:11:17 <TD> yeah, so you have to be careful because that will make you an attractive target for cashing out hacked bank accounts
 908 2012-03-11 16:12:00 <TD> it's bogus and wrong but banks expect _you_ to block such breaches and give the money back, even though you can't make the source banks more secure. if you receive fraudulently obtained funds too often you will be cut off/shut down
 909 2012-03-11 16:12:18 <lodewijkadlp> are there numbers available on the probability? What kind of authentication should I do?
 910 2012-03-11 16:12:20 <TD> what is your real goal? There may be better ways to achieve it. Like, with better p2p coin exchanger systems
 911 2012-03-11 16:12:43 <TD> well you'd have to do all that research yourself. your bank could advise (they had better know what you are doing if you get any serious volume and banks are a PITA to work with)
 912 2012-03-11 16:13:09 <etotheipi_> thanks, sipa
 913 2012-03-11 16:13:38 <sipa> etotheipi_: it's possible that i do some changes to it still (bytecode had some comments about it)
 914 2012-03-11 16:13:52 <TD> personally i'd rather see somebody set up a really good person-to-person trading system. just having a decent map-based website where individuals can register would be good. several were created but none achieved critical mass
 915 2012-03-11 16:13:59 <lodewijkadlp> I've created a user-friendly e-wallet (bitvau.lt, testing fase right now. Please break it and mail admin@bitvau.lt how you did it) (not even (d)dos proof, don't try that please). And people need to get bitcoins with at least the same ease as the wallet works.
 916 2012-03-11 16:14:34 <etotheipi_> sipa, no worries... just let me know when you do
 917 2012-03-11 16:15:24 <etotheipi_> sipa, I just decided that if I'm going to upgrade the wallet, I'm going to do do a LOT of upgrades...
 918 2012-03-11 16:15:31 <etotheipi_> so I'll need to revamp my unit tests
 919 2012-03-11 16:15:36 <TD> lodewijkadlp: no offense but if you want people to store money with you, you need to get native english speakers to proof-read your material. eg check the spelling of "encryption"
 920 2012-03-11 16:15:54 <TD> services like yours have a chequered past with the bitcoin community
 921 2012-03-11 16:16:01 <TD> so you're going to be swimming upstream with it
 922 2012-03-11 16:16:09 <etotheipi_> sipa, I'll try to support multiple chains, but I'm finding it complicated:  not so much in code, but in terms of how to present it
 923 2012-03-11 16:16:39 <lodewijkadlp> I'm going to be working today on accepting iDeal, a Dutch-only chargeback-free for e-shops payment system. There seems to be an equivalent for some other EU countries. I'll just continue research.
 924 2012-03-11 16:16:57 <sipa> etotheipi_: if your wallet concept corresponds to a single chain, no problem; it would already be nice if they are compatible at that level
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 926 2012-03-11 16:17:16 <TD> lodewijkadlp: be skeptical of anything that claims to be "chargeback free"
 927 2012-03-11 16:17:19 <TD> see: dwolla
 928 2012-03-11 16:17:42 <sipa> etotheipi_: i believe the use cases for more chains are important, so i'm thinking about how to implement those in the satoshi client, but i suppose that is up to the creator of the application
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 930 2012-03-11 16:18:14 <etotheipi_> sipa, I'll be implementing multiple chains, I just don't know how I'm going to enable them, if at all
 931 2012-03-11 16:18:24 <lodewijkadlp> I believe I caught that in my development already. I'll restart the server soon. I make no claims to accurate spelling though.
 932 2012-03-11 16:18:34 <etotheipi_> if I enable them, it may just be as if they are multiple wallets
 933 2012-03-11 16:19:01 <etotheipi_> because I'm finding the concept of "subwallets" to be difficult to present in a non-confusing way
 934 2012-03-11 16:19:17 <sipa> i mean: it would be nice if you use the same derivation system; so you can import my [m=...]/n/0 node, and have a wallet that corresponds to the the external chain of my n'th account
 935 2012-03-11 16:19:23 <TD> lodewijkadlp: make sure you have an absolutely watertight contract with iDeal if you use them, because otherwise you could lose a lot of money. they have to provide iron-clad guarantees of being chargeback free written into your contract at minimum
 936 2012-03-11 16:19:32 <etotheipi_> sipa, I plan on doing that :)
 937 2012-03-11 16:19:42 <lodewijkadlp> I've read about the Dwolla things but iDeal is a between-banks system. I'm quite confident that it's actually chargeback free. Another advantage is that people that can use it are likely Dutch, which I can sue.
 938 2012-03-11 16:20:43 <sipa> etotheipi_: i'm thinking about standardizing a serialization for such tree nodes as well
 939 2012-03-11 16:20:54 <sipa> "extended public key" and "extended private key" or so
 940 2012-03-11 16:21:09 <lodewijkadlp> Thanks for the heads up though. If there's any more tips regarding accepting payment you can always contact me at admin or lodewijkadlp at bitvau.lt. I'll lurk for a while still.
 941 2012-03-11 16:21:15 <TD> like i said:  EU banks have been observed to reverse wire transfers. it doesn't matter if iDeal is between banks. you cannot sue anyone for this because the most common failure mode is that a bank account is hacked/phished by somebody unknown who then tries to cash out via bitcoin. the owner of the bank account in question is innocent
 942 2012-03-11 16:21:36 <TD> i'd recommend talking to jered kenna or mark karpeles about their experiences before even thinking about this
 943 2012-03-11 16:21:53 <TD> interfacing bitcoin with the banking system is VERY hard, risky, and some people have lost a lot of money trying
 944 2012-03-11 16:22:06 <TD> that's why i'd suggest focusing on non-banking ways to get bitcoins to people. like good p2p exchange support
 945 2012-03-11 16:22:10 <etotheipi_> sipa, well I'm not doing it just yet:  in fact I'll wait for the Satoshi client to do it, because I have enough other priorities ATM
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 947 2012-03-11 16:23:05 <sipa> etotheipi_: sure
 948 2012-03-11 16:23:17 <etotheipi_> but I'll be happy to discuss it and battle the concepts... I want them to be interoperable
 949 2012-03-11 16:23:41 <sipa> etotheipi_: it won't be released before 0.7.0, and 0.6.0 isn't even there :)
 950 2012-03-11 16:24:08 <etotheipi_> sipa, great :)  I need to get the RAM reduction efforts moving forward (and perhaps a longer-term solution, as well)
 951 2012-03-11 16:24:27 <etotheipi_> so I'm glad I have time before I have to think about this :)
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 954 2012-03-11 16:31:36 <etotheipi_> sipa, how do you feel about libcoin?  as in... what is it's future in the Bitcoin world?
 955 2012-03-11 16:32:04 <etotheipi_> I'm assuming it is *not* being considered for any official place Satoshi client...?
 956 2012-03-11 16:33:04 <etotheipi_> I guess, I'm looking at long term blockchain mgmt solutions for Armory, and libcoin seems like a good place to leverage existing work...
 957 2012-03-11 16:35:59 <sipa> the libcoin author has done a really nice job with refactoring the satoshi code, imho
 958 2012-03-11 16:36:45 <sipa> he did a few things i'm wary about (he wasn't aware reading from an STL data structure required a lock, if it can be simultaneously written to, e.g.)
 959 2012-03-11 16:37:10 <sipa> but afaik it is GPL, so we can't just merge it back
 960 2012-03-11 16:38:28 <etotheipi_> sipa, I guess that's a big question on my mind:  I would love to merge/leverage code *especially* if it will be maintained and up-to-date
 961 2012-03-11 16:41:47 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya, i  haven't even looked at his code because saw gpl3
 962 2012-03-11 16:41:50 <etotheipi_> although, in the really long term, I would love to accommodate blockchain compression/pruning -- I assume there's no plans for that -- have any of the existing ideas been discussed as a serious "Bitcoin upgrade"?  (such as including unspent-output-tree hashes in the coinbases)
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 967 2012-03-11 16:44:04 <Joric> added cpp/sqlite parsers https://github.com/joric/pyblockchain
 968 2012-03-11 16:44:28 <Joric> etotheipi_, i'm trying to implement memory cached file )
 969 2012-03-11 16:45:10 <etotheipi_> Joric, and I'm working on reading the encrypted wallet.dat for migration
 970 2012-03-11 16:46:04 <Joric> well there's aes using 3 different libs http://pastebin.com/XWibUePh
 971 2012-03-11 16:46:28 <etotheipi_> Joric, I'm just going to leverage the AES I have in my code
 972 2012-03-11 16:46:50 <etotheipi_> as I looked through pywallet, I think I figured out how it's done well enough just to integrate it into armory
 973 2012-03-11 16:47:01 <Joric> python version is quite slow i was mostly using openssl dynamic lib
 974 2012-03-11 16:47:01 <etotheipi_> when I'm done, I'll toss you a few BTC :)
 975 2012-03-11 16:48:17 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: you just need to upgrade your system to something that gives openssl hardware accel ;p
 976 2012-03-11 16:48:37 <jrmithdobbs> (*BSD or the /dev/crypto patches for linux)
 977 2012-03-11 16:49:21 <sipa> etotheipi_: it seems my hmac-sha512 implementation is fully compliant (it passes the rfc test cases)
 978 2012-03-11 16:49:50 <sipa> i couldn't find a library that provided it
 979 2012-03-11 16:50:38 <etotheipi_> sipa, compliant is good :)  I haven't tried implementing it, but I did mean to ask if you were using the "standard" HMAC algorithm
 980 2012-03-11 16:51:08 <sipa> originally I wasn't, but it was hardly any work to make it compliant, so why not
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 984 2012-03-11 16:54:17 <sipa> etotheipi_: btw, if we do a "serious upgrade" (read: blockchain forking, full network upgrade required), why bother putting it in the coinbase, instead of just an extra block header field?
 985 2012-03-11 16:54:42 <etotheipi_> sipa, because I didn't think anyone was considering that kind of upgrade
 986 2012-03-11 16:55:17 <etotheipi_> plus, you don't need more than a few of the miners to do it... you don't need every coinbase to hold it
 987 2012-03-11 16:55:30 <etotheipi_> in fact, you probably only need 1 in ever 2016 blocks to have it
 988 2012-03-11 16:55:42 <tcatm> Block header changes will require rewriting many mining algorithms as most of them assume the nonce to be at a specified position.
 989 2012-03-11 16:56:33 <sipa> I doubt that's the problem.
 990 2012-03-11 16:57:53 <Joric> added example output to chart.py - http://goo.gl/A53P0
 991 2012-03-11 16:58:33 <etotheipi_> I really like the idea of letting the blockchain pruning happen "gracefully" -- i.e. people can hold onto it if they want to, or can start pruning and verify against hundreds of other nodes
 992 2012-03-11 16:58:36 <TD> i don't see why block chain pruning needs changes to the protocol
 993 2012-03-11 16:58:55 <sipa> TD: it doesn't
 994 2012-03-11 16:59:14 * TD hopes there are no more strange protocol level changes until we start hitting size limits. bip16 is enough.
 995 2012-03-11 16:59:18 <etotheipi_> but I think it's going to require *someone* to start putting data in coinbases
 996 2012-03-11 16:59:45 <TD> why? it's a purely local optimization. so we have some archived snapshots of the unpruned, full block chain
 997 2012-03-11 16:59:49 <etotheipi_> or maybe just an extra network message for exchanging this info
 998 2012-03-11 16:59:52 <TD> you can download them to bootstrap a new node
 999 2012-03-11 17:00:26 <TD> the only protocol change is at the network level. nodes need to be able to state they can't serve the chain. we already have it for client mode anyway
1000 2012-03-11 17:00:36 <TD> can't serve the full chain, sorry
1001 2012-03-11 17:00:47 <TD> you can obviously keep the last few thousand blocks around unpruned or whatever so nodes that leave temporarily can come back
1002 2012-03-11 17:01:01 <etotheipi_> TD, I'm thinking about the far future, where it may not be feasible except for the full, super-nodes to hold the whole blockchain
1003 2012-03-11 17:01:45 <TD> end users will be on lightweight clients. miners, merchants, bitbanks, whatever, full nodes with pruning to keep the disk space requirements in check. assuming anyone cares about the disk space requirements by that point
1004 2012-03-11 17:01:56 <TD> it doesn't seem like a high priority for a long time, at least.
1005 2012-03-11 17:03:27 <etotheipi_> it may not be, but I believe it's a critical success factor for Bitcoin in the long-term, which means I wouldn't mind figuring it out, and even trying to implement a solution before it becomes critical
1006 2012-03-11 17:03:52 <TD> sure
1007 2012-03-11 17:04:38 <etotheipi_> but arguably, I *do* have other priorities right now... I'm just thinking that if I re-implement my blockchain code, it would be cool to reimplement it with pruning
1008 2012-03-11 17:04:52 <etotheipi_> but not until there is a *solid* agreeable solution to the problem
1009 2012-03-11 17:05:33 <etotheipi_> but I might be living in utopia to believe that will happen
1010 2012-03-11 17:05:51 <sipa> well, you can implement pruning; i do not think it's that hard, but you won't be able to answer to getdata/block messages
1011 2012-03-11 17:05:59 <sipa> i.e., not function as a full node anymore
1012 2012-03-11 17:07:03 <etotheipi_> sipa, understood
1013 2012-03-11 17:07:24 <etotheipi_> my concern is more to do with the security of pruning:  I don't want to even tackle it until I know that there are ways to verify against other nodes
1014 2012-03-11 17:07:47 <etotheipi_> I feel like there's too many subtle things that can go-wrong/be-attacked if you just prune by yourself
1015 2012-03-11 17:08:31 <luke-jr> tcatm: blockchain-fork upgrade will probably be merged-mined-only anyway, so block header won't be directly hashes
1016 2012-03-11 17:08:33 <luke-jr> hashed*
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1022 2012-03-11 17:36:55 <neofutur> searching partners for a a public btcprice server http://p.b.gw.gd/ip/p.php?usdprice=100
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1030 2012-03-11 17:58:33 <Raccoon> what would be the bit length of the number 10000000000000000000000000
1031 2012-03-11 17:59:20 <Raccoon> or 10^25
1032 2012-03-11 17:59:33 <Raccoon> looking for 2^X
1033 2012-03-11 18:00:07 <etotheipi_> Raccoon, it's approximately a factor of 3 difference:  10^25 is *approx* 2^75
1034 2012-03-11 18:00:38 <Raccoon> hmm, wouldn't that be 9^25 then?
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1036 2012-03-11 18:02:34 <etotheipi_> it's actually a little bit more... factor is 3.3
1037 2012-03-11 18:02:43 <etotheipi_> 10^25 is about 2^83
1038 2012-03-11 18:03:55 <Raccoon> thanks.
1039 2012-03-11 18:04:00 <etotheipi_> Raccoon, you can use any calculator to do the computation for any base
1040 2012-03-11 18:04:13 <etotheipi_> you can compute it exactly by doing   log(10^25)/log(2)
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1042 2012-03-11 18:04:41 <etotheipi_> log(X)/log(Y) = Z -->   Y^Z=X
1043 2012-03-11 18:05:16 <Raccoon> thanks :)
1044 2012-03-11 18:05:33 <etotheipi_> np
1045 2012-03-11 18:06:36 <Raccoon> would you agree to my statements at http://bitcoin-kamikaze.com/?userID=53130&secretKey=tk7P2OTsXUenScsp
1046 2012-03-11 18:06:55 <Raccoon> taking http://i51.tinypic.com/9ifpma.png  as the discussed system
1047 2012-03-11 18:06:59 <Joric> does not compute
1048 2012-03-11 18:07:18 <Joric> funny i have no access to that page
1049 2012-03-11 18:08:26 <Raccoon> Try http://bitcoin-kamikaze.com/ then click on MiniChat
1050 2012-03-11 18:08:59 <Joric> looks like probably ip filtering i may access it via anonymizer
1051 2012-03-11 18:10:22 <Raccoon> I suggest that using a hash key in contrast to the one in that image
1052 2012-03-11 18:10:23 <Raccoon> T(2)wo fIv(5)e Th(3)ReE (4)FouR ON(1)E Si(6)x TWo(2) tHrE(3)E gIRaFfE
1053 2012-03-11 18:10:52 <Raccoon> offering roughly 2^83 bits of entropy while making it improbable to MD5 collide
1054 2012-03-11 18:11:09 <Joric> Raccoon, check out 'honesty proof' on http://goo.gl/2q5My )
1055 2012-03-11 18:11:32 <Raccoon> "Entropy in the above example is roughly 27^8 (lotto picks with shuffled number positioning) * 2^35 (mixed case) * 1000 (dictionary common nouns). That comes to 10^25"
1056 2012-03-11 18:11:39 lodewijkadlp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1057 2012-03-11 18:12:55 <Raccoon> i'm not a fan of that one either.  though its shorter length makes it harder to exploit MD5
1058 2012-03-11 18:12:57 booo has joined
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1060 2012-03-11 18:26:11 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert13.png Lock icon moved to "MY WALLET" near balance.
1061 2012-03-11 18:27:18 <Joric> what happened with window header and window frame?
1062 2012-03-11 18:28:03 <tcatm> That's the window managers job.
1063 2012-03-11 18:29:01 <[Tycho]> Connectivity meter is way too close the edge
1064 2012-03-11 18:29:12 <[Tycho]> *to
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1072 2012-03-11 18:36:55 <TD> sipa: what do you think about making bitcoin announce the contents of its memory pool with an inv at startup
1073 2012-03-11 18:37:52 <sipa> hmm, i don't see any reason not to
1074 2012-03-11 18:39:08 Davincij15 has joined
1075 2012-03-11 18:39:10 <sipa> by "at startup" you mean "when you receive a connection" ?
1076 2012-03-11 18:40:36 Davincij has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1077 2012-03-11 18:51:31 <[Tycho]> Hello, luke-jr
1078 2012-03-11 18:51:34 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1079 2012-03-11 18:51:34 Joric has quit ()
1080 2012-03-11 18:53:10 <TD> sipa: yes, sorry
1081 2012-03-11 18:53:28 <TD> sipa: it means if somebody sends you money, then you start the client, you will see it appear immediately
1082 2012-03-11 18:53:34 <TD> currently you have to wait for a block if you miss the broadcast
1083 2012-03-11 18:54:10 JRWR has quit (Quit: BTC Welcome: 19QtYzmENUmqRhvjEvHsz785rqZ5RRcZG4)
1084 2012-03-11 18:54:39 <sipa> I'm wondering if there could be any downside or other reason why Satoshi chose not to do that.
1085 2012-03-11 18:55:36 <luke-jr> hi [Tycho]
1086 2012-03-11 18:55:55 booo has joined
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1090 2012-03-11 19:01:30 <TD> sipa: i can't think of any
1091 2012-03-11 19:01:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: do you think we should put specific version numbers in rc's?
1092 2012-03-11 19:01:36 <TD> sipa: he probably assumed you'd run the software all the time
1093 2012-03-11 19:01:50 <sipa> TD: haha, yes, and be mining all the time as well.
1094 2012-03-11 19:02:08 <TD> the whole address thing came quite late in the design, i think
1095 2012-03-11 19:03:10 <sipa> I think so too; the name "scriptSig" and "scriptPubKey" seem to give a hint in that direction
1096 2012-03-11 19:03:16 <gmaxwell> TD: so if the new peer is behind on the chain, the memory pool txn will end up as orphans on the peer.
1097 2012-03-11 19:03:34 <TD> yes
1098 2012-03-11 19:03:42 <TD> it's more useful for lightweight clients
1099 2012-03-11 19:03:50 <gmaxwell> They'll also nail their peers with copies of the ones they take.
1100 2012-03-11 19:04:08 <gmaxwell> so it would increase inv traffic somewhat, though I don't know if that will matter much.
1101 2012-03-11 19:04:40 <sipa> If you're worried about it, you could limit that rule to cases where the incoming connection advertizes with less or equal number of blocks as you have.
1102 2012-03-11 19:05:19 <TD> it'd mean one extra inv per connection
1103 2012-03-11 19:05:25 <TD> not a big deal, really
1104 2012-03-11 19:06:30 <gmaxwell> hm. Will it tend to make transactions that don't confirm immortal?
1105 2012-03-11 19:06:46 <sipa> Probably.
1106 2012-03-11 19:06:50 <gmaxwell> e.g. because nodes always coming online and offline will reinv them and introduce them to their peers who've forgotten them.
1107 2012-03-11 19:07:04 <sipa> But they live +- forever in miner's nodes as well now.
1108 2012-03-11 19:07:34 <sipa> I think unconfirming transactions is a separate problem anyway.
1109 2012-03-11 19:08:04 <gmaxwell> I thought they aged out (though, er. I don't remember actually seeing the code for that— I do know that you can replace a transaction which doesn't confirm if you stop announcing it and wait a while)
1110 2012-03-11 19:08:37 h4ckm3 has quit (Quit: changing servers)
1111 2012-03-11 19:08:42 <sipa> In any case, only you and the receiver ever rebroadcast them.
1112 2012-03-11 19:09:19 <sipa> So if neither of you does, it will die out in the network communication. But I suppose it may live for a long time in some nodes' memory pools still.
1113 2012-03-11 19:09:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, but the reinving would have that effect.
1114 2012-03-11 19:09:26 h4ckm3 has joined
1115 2012-03-11 19:09:29 <sipa> Yes.
1116 2012-03-11 19:09:42 <sipa> Anyway, got to go.
1117 2012-03-11 19:10:35 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1120 2012-03-11 19:17:37 pklaus has joined
1121 2012-03-11 19:24:28 <luke-jr> sipa: but…
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1123 2012-03-11 19:29:07 h4ckm3 has joined
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1128 2012-03-11 19:42:42 <TD> can anyone see an issue with adding a "pong" that is generated in response to a ping?
1129 2012-03-11 19:43:05 <t7> are there other near complete implementations of bitcoin?
1130 2012-03-11 19:43:06 <andytoshi> let's people know you're alive, and maybe your IP?
1131 2012-03-11 19:43:24 <andytoshi> why do routers ignore ICMP pings these days?
1132 2012-03-11 19:43:47 <andytoshi> t7: depends what you mean by "near"
1133 2012-03-11 19:43:59 <andytoshi> i think armory is fairly complete
1134 2012-03-11 19:45:20 <TD> t7: of a full node? no
1135 2012-03-11 19:45:27 <TD> t7: of a lightweight node? bitcoinj isn't bad
1136 2012-03-11 19:46:15 <andytoshi> i think mtgox and some other folks have their own private nodes
1137 2012-03-11 19:46:28 iocor has joined
1138 2012-03-11 19:46:29 <andytoshi> for what that's worth
1139 2012-03-11 19:46:32 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1140 2012-03-11 19:46:52 <t7> its just that the bitcoin source is a bit huge and not very modular
1141 2012-03-11 19:46:59 <andytoshi> i concur
1142 2012-03-11 19:47:18 <andytoshi> i'm working on a cleaner version written in D, but it's nowhere near complete
1143 2012-03-11 19:47:28 <andytoshi> and it's a very low-priority project compared to schoolwork and research
1144 2012-03-11 19:47:29 Clipse has joined
1145 2012-03-11 19:48:35 <andytoshi> having said that, the satoshi client isn't terrible - it's a million times better than it was a year ago
1146 2012-03-11 19:48:41 <andytoshi> the devs have done a lot of cleanup
1147 2012-03-11 19:49:22 unicron has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1148 2012-03-11 19:51:22 <t7> i think there are too many unsafe functions in the code (memcpy etc)
1149 2012-03-11 19:52:01 <andytoshi> well, 'unsafe' just means you have to be careful
1150 2012-03-11 19:52:18 <t7> everyone makes mistakes
1151 2012-03-11 19:52:25 <andytoshi> true, but bitcoin is very heavily tested
1152 2012-03-11 19:52:49 user_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1153 2012-03-11 19:53:20 <t7> i wonder if anyone has tried implementing with coq or something
1154 2012-03-11 19:53:47 <andytoshi> i doubt it.. you could ;)
1155 2012-03-11 19:54:17 <t7> i remember roconner was working on a haskell client ages ago
1156 2012-03-11 19:55:55 <Eliel> I think he progressed pretty far with it. However, he hasn't been here for 3 weeks now.
1157 2012-03-11 19:55:56 <t7> i think c# or java or something a little 'safer' would be a step in the right direction
1158 2012-03-11 19:56:39 unicron has joined
1159 2012-03-11 19:56:42 <andytoshi> java's memory model is a nightmare
1160 2012-03-11 19:56:53 <andytoshi> i wouldn't want to manage a 1-2Gb blockchain with it
1161 2012-03-11 19:57:07 <andytoshi> you might be able to get some traction starting a c# client
1162 2012-03-11 20:03:37 <luke-jr> did roconnor ever publish his work?
1163 2012-03-11 20:04:02 <denisx> when I send {"method":"getwork","params":[],"id":7548705} to bitcoind the id should be part of the answer, right?
1164 2012-03-11 20:04:04 JRWR has quit (Quit: BTC Welcome: 19QtYzmENUmqRhvjEvHsz785rqZ5RRcZG4)
1165 2012-03-11 20:05:22 <Eliel> luke-jr: darcs repo is here: http://r6.ca/Purecoin
1166 2012-03-11 20:07:35 Sedra- has joined
1167 2012-03-11 20:07:53 <luke-jr> ♥ darcs deps … :/
1168 2012-03-11 20:08:44 <Eliel> I suspect you got yourself a nice big compilation job if you're using gentoo :)
1169 2012-03-11 20:08:54 <Eliel> especially if you haven't used haskell before
1170 2012-03-11 20:09:15 Sedra has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1171 2012-03-11 20:11:22 archo47 has joined
1172 2012-03-11 20:12:20 <andytoshi> i think most people have used haskell these days.. functional programming is coming back into vogue
1173 2012-03-11 20:12:29 <andytoshi> as a complexity managment strategy
1174 2012-03-11 20:12:29 <t7> does anyone know a binary file pastebin?
1175 2012-03-11 20:12:41 <andytoshi> just base64 it :P
1176 2012-03-11 20:12:50 <midnightmagic> uh.
1177 2012-03-11 20:12:55 <midnightmagic> how do I get past 170052?
1178 2012-03-11 20:13:01 <andytoshi> the short answer is, the FBI keeps shutting them down
1179 2012-03-11 20:13:06 <midnightmagic> or 170059 or whatever.
1180 2012-03-11 20:13:08 pklaus has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1181 2012-03-11 20:13:12 <Eliel> t7: yeah, megaupload was like that.
1182 2012-03-11 20:13:15 <midnightmagic> upgrading to 0.6.0rc2 doesn't correct it.
1183 2012-03-11 20:13:22 <andytoshi> midnightmagic: sipa has a patch that might help
1184 2012-03-11 20:13:39 <midnightmagic> andytoshi: can I go backwards to an earlier version?
1185 2012-03-11 20:13:43 <Eliel> t7: well, dropbox works for that though.
1186 2012-03-11 20:13:54 <andytoshi> that is, a branch on which he dropped the complexity of a blockchain reorg, to avoid database limits
1187 2012-03-11 20:14:10 <midnightmagic> gah brutal.
1188 2012-03-11 20:14:12 <andytoshi> midnightmagic: no, the chain is goofed, i believe
1189 2012-03-11 20:14:12 paraipan has joined
1190 2012-03-11 20:14:26 <midnightmagic> well i guess i shut down my miners for the time being then. :-( oh well.
1191 2012-03-11 20:14:35 <midnightmagic> thanks andytoshi. guess the electricity bill could use a break.
1192 2012-03-11 20:15:00 <andytoshi> if you want, you can compile sipa's minireorg branch and use that
1193 2012-03-11 20:15:05 <andytoshi> which might get you past 170059
1194 2012-03-11 20:15:13 <andytoshi> it worked for me, though i've been informed it's not a sure thing
1195 2012-03-11 20:15:18 <luke-jr> Eliel: I *used* to have darcs installed. Not sure when I lost it :p
1196 2012-03-11 20:15:21 <midnightmagic> okay, thanks, i'll do that later.
1197 2012-03-11 20:17:15 <Eliel> how do you add labels to issues on github? I'd like to add bug and gui labels into my pull request https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/928
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1199 2012-03-11 20:24:22 <yellowhat> has anyone info on the status of the testnet? is 48968 the current height?
1200 2012-03-11 20:24:25 mrsy has joined
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1206 2012-03-11 20:37:14 <tribbler> c
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1211 2012-03-11 20:45:47 <denisx> anyone here using BIP30 already?
1212 2012-03-11 20:46:07 <denisx> [Tycho]: how is your BIP30 test going?
1213 2012-03-11 20:46:15 <[Tycho]> Hello.
1214 2012-03-11 20:46:23 <[Tycho]> I think it's fine.
1215 2012-03-11 20:46:46 <denisx> I have now 3 blocks which got not accepted by bitcoind
1216 2012-03-11 20:46:48 fimpfimp has joined
1217 2012-03-11 20:46:57 <denisx> telling me the nBits are not correct
1218 2012-03-11 20:47:05 <[Tycho]> It's not 15.03 yet :
1219 2012-03-11 20:47:18 <denisx> there is some small part not depending on that
1220 2012-03-11 20:47:20 <gmaxwell> denisx: are you talking about testnet?
1221 2012-03-11 20:47:24 <denisx> no
1222 2012-03-11 20:47:34 Karmaon has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8-dev)
1223 2012-03-11 20:48:58 <gmaxwell> denisx: the bip30 patches don't touch anything related to nbits checking IIRC.
1224 2012-03-11 20:49:37 <denisx> ok
1225 2012-03-11 20:50:09 <gmaxwell> Some poolserver software (E.g. pushpool, IIRC) sends up solutions which are not actually blocks.
1226 2012-03-11 20:50:30 <gmaxwell> Could it be thats what you're seeing and you're only noticing it now because you're actually paying attention?
1227 2012-03-11 20:50:40 <denisx> yeah, push pool does that too, it is called better hash
1228 2012-03-11 20:50:47 <denisx> has the first five bytes zero
1229 2012-03-11 20:50:55 <denisx> and these are logged in my database
1230 2012-03-11 20:51:21 <denisx> and I check if they fit the real target
1231 2012-03-11 20:52:03 <denisx> gmaxwell: it started with my BIP30 deployment
1232 2012-03-11 20:52:14 <denisx> but it can also be coincidence
1233 2012-03-11 20:52:19 <denisx> Iam just checking
1234 2012-03-11 20:54:05 <luke-jr> no problems here
1235 2012-03-11 20:54:16 <gmaxwell> Ah. Well the bip30 patch itsef doesn't appear to carry any danger of rejections due to nbits. If you've made other upgrades at the same time, then perhaps those— but I can't think of anything other than the testnet specific rule changes.
1236 2012-03-11 20:55:19 <denisx> can someone take a look? http://pastie.org/3573194
1237 2012-03-11 20:55:33 <denisx> thats the debug.output from bitcoind
1238 2012-03-11 20:57:56 forsetifox has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1239 2012-03-11 20:58:43 <denisx> in the debug output I can see that the hash is smaller than the target and it also lists the correct nBits
1240 2012-03-11 21:00:28 machine1 has joined
1241 2012-03-11 21:01:23 <TD> https://github.com/mikehearn/bitcoin/commit/5a9a357c3965f5857183064fc946e8ca35fb6e48
1242 2012-03-11 21:01:34 <TD> any objections to that? it adds a "pong" that replies to a ping
1243 2012-03-11 21:01:50 legion050 has joined
1244 2012-03-11 21:03:26 <tribbler> aweesome td
1245 2012-03-11 21:03:34 <tribbler> i was looking for something like that
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1254 2012-03-11 21:22:50 <t7> does a bitcoin TX have to be 'mined' ? I didn't think that was the case
1255 2012-03-11 21:23:01 bitfoo has joined
1256 2012-03-11 21:23:58 <tribbler> yeah it has to be mined
1257 2012-03-11 21:24:19 <t7> that new the same as mining bitcoins though, right?
1258 2012-03-11 21:24:42 <tribbler> nto the same no
1259 2012-03-11 21:25:00 <tribbler> txs should be included in mined blocks
1260 2012-03-11 21:25:09 <tribbler> the miner gets the bounty for each block
1261 2012-03-11 21:25:18 <t7> but it gets harder and harder to mine blocks
1262 2012-03-11 21:25:39 <t7> so at some point people wont bother and no one will be able to make a transaction?
1263 2012-03-11 21:26:02 <andytoshi> no, the difficulty adjusts to the network size
1264 2012-03-11 21:26:13 <andytoshi> so if miners leave, it'll get easier to mine
1265 2012-03-11 21:26:21 <tribbler> http://doppnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/speed-lin-ever1.png  difficulty over time
1266 2012-03-11 21:27:07 <gmaxwell> tribbler: why would you link to that instead of the actual source!
1267 2012-03-11 21:27:28 <tribbler> that was the first google hit
1268 2012-03-11 21:27:34 <gmaxwell> (which is not a year out of date…)
1269 2012-03-11 21:27:35 <gmaxwell> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-ever.png
1270 2012-03-11 21:27:52 <tribbler> yes its enough to illustrate the point
1271 2012-03-11 21:28:00 <t7> how often is a block solved?
1272 2012-03-11 21:28:09 <tribbler> every ten minutes approx
1273 2012-03-11 21:28:22 <gmaxwell> t7: Mining is the process of extending Bitcoin's distributed transaction log, it's also the process that initially creates bitcoins (as a side effect and incentive)
1274 2012-03-11 21:28:22 <t7> so a transaction will take at least 5 mins on avg?
1275 2012-03-11 21:28:31 <gmaxwell> t7: Define "take"?
1276 2012-03-11 21:28:50 <t7> from when i send until when the recipient can see it
1277 2012-03-11 21:28:54 <tribbler> by default the transaction is considered confirmed after 6 blocks, so its more like 65 minutes
1278 2012-03-11 21:29:03 <gmaxwell> t7: when someone sends a traction to you if you're online you'll usually know about it in under a second.
1279 2012-03-11 21:30:03 <andytoshi> t7: how well do you know stats? if i tell you that mining is (nearly) a poisson process, does that help?
1280 2012-03-11 21:30:17 <gmaxwell> t7: At that point the recipient can see it— but if the sender is malicious the transaction could potentially be reversed. As time passes the chance of it being reversed is reduced, evidence of that reduction is made visible through the confirmation count increasing after its initally mined.
1281 2012-03-11 21:31:21 <t7> is there a limit to the number of TXs that can fit in a block?
1282 2012-03-11 21:31:49 Cory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1283 2012-03-11 21:31:52 <gmaxwell> t7: There is a limit on the size of a block.
1284 2012-03-11 21:32:00 <tribbler> 1MB
1285 2012-03-11 21:32:15 <gmaxwell> (which limits the number of transactions— thoubh because transactions differ in size the exact number depends on the composition of the transactions)
1286 2012-03-11 21:32:19 erle- has joined
1287 2012-03-11 21:32:22 <t7> will that become an issue at some point?
1288 2012-03-11 21:32:35 <gmaxwell> t7: It depends on how bitcoin is used.
1289 2012-03-11 21:32:52 <gmaxwell> If the users of bitcoin want to increase the limit, they can— though it has to be done by everyone.
1290 2012-03-11 21:33:25 <gmaxwell> t7: see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability and especially my comments on the discussion page.
1291 2012-03-11 21:33:32 <tribbler> given typical tx sizes, the 1mb block size limits allows for around 2400 tx's
1292 2012-03-11 21:34:54 JRWR has joined
1293 2012-03-11 21:35:06 <gmaxwell> tribbler: hm, I thought typical txn were more like 230 bytes.
1294 2012-03-11 21:35:38 <t7> does the standard client mine transactions?
1295 2012-03-11 21:35:45 <tribbler> not sure havent looked at recent sizes
1296 2012-03-11 21:36:03 <tribbler> select avg(bytes) from tx
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1300 2012-03-11 21:36:45 <andytoshi> t7: the short answer is no
1301 2012-03-11 21:37:01 <andytoshi> you can tell it to if you want, but it'll use your CPU and basically just produce heat
1302 2012-03-11 21:37:02 <t7> is it profitable to mine txs?
1303 2012-03-11 21:37:14 <gmaxwell> t7: Sure— though the built in mining (which is just cpu mining) is slow enough that it only generated compaints so its a CLI only option.
1304 2012-03-11 21:37:32 <Eliel> t7: it's usually called mining blocks (well, just mining, most often)
1305 2012-03-11 21:37:38 <andytoshi> it depends on how much hardware you already have, the cost of electricity, the cost of heat, your need of heat, etc
1306 2012-03-11 21:38:05 <tribbler> t7: depends on the price of electricity and gpus.. people are seeing 9-12 mos. payback time on their mining rigs, assuming they dont meltdown first
1307 2012-03-11 21:38:26 <Eliel> but it can be profitable if you get the right hardware and cheap electricity, yes.
1308 2012-03-11 21:38:40 <andytoshi> also depends on the value of btc
1309 2012-03-11 21:38:42 <t7> and it will stay at that level
1310 2012-03-11 21:38:53 <t7> because as people leave it gets cheaper to mine
1311 2012-03-11 21:39:09 <Eliel> but there is some risk involved.
1312 2012-03-11 21:39:34 <t7> but someone up there ^ said mining coins and transactions was different
1313 2012-03-11 21:39:35 <luke-jr> tribbler: I don't think GPU rigs will pay for themselves at this point
1314 2012-03-11 21:39:39 Cory has joined
1315 2012-03-11 21:39:41 <luke-jr> tribbler: even FPGAs are just barely
1316 2012-03-11 21:39:53 forsetifox has joined
1317 2012-03-11 21:39:55 <tribbler> yeah the economics are in flux
1318 2012-03-11 21:40:05 <luke-jr> I mean even at the current difficulty/price :p
1319 2012-03-11 21:41:03 <Eliel> if you believe the exchange rate will go up, long term, then mining could be quite profitable. But you could also just choose to buy more coins instead of investing into mining equipment.
1320 2012-03-11 21:41:40 <luke-jr> yeah, buying Bitcoins is usually cheaper and improves the probability it will go up ;)
1321 2012-03-11 21:41:47 <Eliel> I'm personally keeping all the coins I'm mining. Well, aside from what little I use for paying for things in bitcoins.
1322 2012-03-11 21:43:34 <Eliel> so far my choice of investing into mining hardware instead of directly buying bitcoins has gotten me 1.5x the amount of coins I could've bought at the time I got my miners.
1323 2012-03-11 21:43:47 <luke-jr> Eliel: yeah, but that was back then :P
1324 2012-03-11 21:43:56 <luke-jr> I highly doubt the same applies now
1325 2012-03-11 21:44:09 gruez has joined
1326 2012-03-11 21:44:13 <luke-jr> especially with all the FPGAs coming online
1327 2012-03-11 21:44:16 <gruez> luke-jr: what do you need?
1328 2012-03-11 21:44:19 <luke-jr> gruez: ?
1329 2012-03-11 21:44:20 <t7> i wish someone had told me about this back in the day
1330 2012-03-11 21:44:30 <luke-jr> gruez: oh, you're the guy with the 0.4.4rc3 issue?
1331 2012-03-11 21:44:36 <gruez> luke-jr: yes
1332 2012-03-11 21:44:36 <Eliel> t7: I had that same thought when I found out about bitcoin :D
1333 2012-03-11 21:44:38 <luke-jr> t7: we all do :D
1334 2012-03-11 21:44:43 <gruez> I currently have 0.4.2 working
1335 2012-03-11 21:44:45 archo47 has quit ()
1336 2012-03-11 21:44:51 <Eliel> that was in may 29th 2011
1337 2012-03-11 21:44:51 <luke-jr> gruez: can you pastebin the Wallet corrupt debug.log?
1338 2012-03-11 21:45:10 <luke-jr> Eliel: the day before my 7 year anniversary! :p
1339 2012-03-11 21:45:15 <gruez> luke-jr: with 0.4.4?
1340 2012-03-11 21:45:17 <luke-jr> (I found Bitcoin on Jan 1 2011)
1341 2012-03-11 21:45:19 <luke-jr> gruez: yes
1342 2012-03-11 21:45:55 <Eliel> the first article I saw about bitcoin was the one where rick falkvinge announced he's putting all his savings into bitcoin :)
1343 2012-03-11 21:46:04 <luke-jr> Eliel: who? :p
1344 2012-03-11 21:46:09 <luke-jr> actually
1345 2012-03-11 21:46:16 <luke-jr> I think half of my savings is de facto in Bitcoin now
1346 2012-03-11 21:46:20 <luke-jr> just by coincidence
1347 2012-03-11 21:46:41 <luke-jr> at least if I count Bitcoin investments
1348 2012-03-11 21:47:17 <Eliel> for me, pretty much all of my savings (which are actually less than my student loan) are in bitcoins really :P
1349 2012-03-11 21:47:30 <gruez> Error loading wallet.dat: Wallet corrupted
1350 2012-03-11 21:47:48 <luke-jr> gruez: right, but I mean like 2-3 pages of the debug.log when that happens
1351 2012-03-11 21:47:53 <luke-jr> gruez: btw, are you using bitcoind or wxBitcoin?
1352 2012-03-11 21:48:22 <gruez> luke-jr: the gui one
1353 2012-03-11 21:48:26 <gruez> so wxbitcoin
1354 2012-03-11 21:48:55 <luke-jr> gruez: http://pastebin.com if you need a place to paste the debug.log
1355 2012-03-11 21:49:20 <luke-jr> or you can throw it on the forum thread like you did before, if that's easier
1356 2012-03-11 21:49:26 <gruez> luke-jr: http://pastie.org/private/x8lrxod8sdwdb8dksmujbw
1357 2012-03-11 21:49:53 <luke-jr> h,,
1358 2012-03-11 21:49:54 <luke-jr> hmm*
1359 2012-03-11 21:50:54 h4ckm3 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1360 2012-03-11 21:51:20 <gruez> I get the same error when i'm using bitcoind
1361 2012-03-11 21:51:43 <t7> there doesnt seem to be much to buy with bitcoin...
1362 2012-03-11 21:52:45 <luke-jr> gruez: how much funds are in your wallet?
1363 2012-03-11 21:52:57 <andytoshi> t7: the merchant situation is improving
1364 2012-03-11 21:53:02 <andytoshi> you can buy hosting now, for example
1365 2012-03-11 21:53:28 <t7> all i buy is food and beer
1366 2012-03-11 21:53:42 <andytoshi> yeah, ditto
1367 2012-03-11 21:53:46 <andytoshi> one day that'll be btc..
1368 2012-03-11 21:54:01 <luke-jr> I buy hardware.
1369 2012-03-11 21:54:04 <gruez> luke-jr: about 60
1370 2012-03-11 21:54:08 <luke-jr> bought my FPGAs in Bitcoin
1371 2012-03-11 21:54:12 <t7> im gonna write a BTC slot machine thing
1372 2012-03-11 21:54:27 <t7> maybe then i can earn a few
1373 2012-03-11 21:54:42 <t7> btc poker looked really cool but no one is ever on it
1374 2012-03-11 21:55:02 <gruez> i looked into pywallet
1375 2012-03-11 21:55:13 <gruez> but there it can't mass import/export keys
1376 2012-03-11 21:55:25 <gruez> *but it can't mass import/export keys
1377 2012-03-11 21:55:41 <luke-jr> gruez: would you be comfortable sending me your wallet.dat? maybe if I escrow 60 BTC with some third party we both trust?
1378 2012-03-11 21:56:12 phantomfakeBNC has joined
1379 2012-03-11 21:56:16 phantomfakeBNC has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1380 2012-03-11 21:56:18 RazielZ has joined
1381 2012-03-11 21:57:35 wasabi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1382 2012-03-11 21:57:45 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1383 2012-03-11 21:58:08 <gruez> luke-jr: no, sorry.
1384 2012-03-11 21:58:19 <gruez> as i got some "questionable" activities on that wallet
1385 2012-03-11 21:58:23 <luke-jr> i c
1386 2012-03-11 21:58:32 <luke-jr> gruez: you use Windows, correct?
1387 2012-03-11 21:58:36 <gruez> yes
1388 2012-03-11 21:58:57 * luke-jr ponders an easy way to debug this remotely
1389 2012-03-11 21:59:56 <gruez> i can send you the stack trace/registers
1390 2012-03-11 22:00:20 _h4ckm3 has quit (Quit: changing servers)
1391 2012-03-11 22:00:59 <luke-jr> gruez: at the point of DB_CORRUPT being returned, or just the message?
1392 2012-03-11 22:01:09 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
1393 2012-03-11 22:01:33 h4ckm3 has joined
1394 2012-03-11 22:01:43 <gruez> attach with olly
1395 2012-03-11 22:01:53 <gruez> wait until the messagebox appears
1396 2012-03-11 22:01:57 <gruez> run til user command
1397 2012-03-11 22:02:01 <gruez> press "ok"
1398 2012-03-11 22:02:04 <gruez> it breaks
1399 2012-03-11 22:02:09 <gruez> i copy the stack/registers
1400 2012-03-11 22:03:04 fimpfimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1401 2012-03-11 22:03:06 phantomfakeBNC has joined
1402 2012-03-11 22:03:18 phantomfakeBNC has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1403 2012-03-11 22:03:23 erle- has joined
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1406 2012-03-11 22:04:45 OneFixt has joined
1407 2012-03-11 22:05:03 <luke-jr> gruez: will probably need to build a custom exe with more debugging info, hold on
1408 2012-03-11 22:05:15 <luke-jr> anyone present happen to have a *fast* Win32 build environment?
1409 2012-03-11 22:05:49 phantomfakeBNC has joined
1410 2012-03-11 22:06:17 tribbler has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1411 2012-03-11 22:09:10 <luke-jr> blah
1412 2012-03-11 22:11:12 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 931 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/931>
1413 2012-03-11 22:15:04 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: lack of linebreaks or white space in the printfs in that commit will probably make the messages run togeather.
1414 2012-03-11 22:15:49 <gmaxwell> (or at least in the 21e875c  commit)
1415 2012-03-11 22:16:16 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: mikehearn opened pull request 932 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/932>
1416 2012-03-11 22:16:59 ThomasV has joined
1417 2012-03-11 22:17:20 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: oops
1418 2012-03-11 22:18:39 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1419 2012-03-11 22:19:13 legion050 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1420 2012-03-11 22:20:03 erle64- has joined
1421 2012-03-11 22:22:25 <luke-jr> gruez: OK, try this: http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/bitcoind.exe
1422 2012-03-11 22:22:32 <luke-jr> gruez: pastebin the debug.log that comes out of it
1423 2012-03-11 22:22:40 <luke-jr> err
1424 2012-03-11 22:22:43 <luke-jr> hold on, not done uploading
1425 2012-03-11 22:22:44 <etotheipi_> quick question:  is it "standard" that if the network byte is X, then we prefix a private key with X.flipbit(7)?
1426 2012-03-11 22:22:52 erle64- has quit (Client Quit)
1427 2012-03-11 22:23:13 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: wtf?
1428 2012-03-11 22:23:41 erle- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1429 2012-03-11 22:23:45 <etotheipi_> so we have regular BTC addresses which is [0x00 + hash160 + chksum].... and private keys are [0x80 + privKey + chksum]
1430 2012-03-11 22:24:07 <luke-jr> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=28523237
1431 2012-03-11 22:24:21 <luke-jr> note a lot doesn't follow this (yet?)
1432 2012-03-11 22:24:35 <etotheipi_> I always just assumed that all private key encodings use 0x80, but I'm assuming it changes between network
1433 2012-03-11 22:25:34 <etotheipi_> I ask because I see in pywallet that it looks like Joric is flipping the 7th bit to get the private key prefix... didn't know where this comes from
1434 2012-03-11 22:26:03 <luke-jr> wow, exes are big
1435 2012-03-11 22:26:05 <etotheipi_> when you say "Bits 128/64 define network class", are you saying 7th and 6th bit?
1436 2012-03-11 22:26:28 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: whichever bit you label 128 and 64 :p
1437 2012-03-11 22:27:21 <Eliel> bit 128 is the only bit that's 1 in an 8-bit unsigned integer :)
1438 2012-03-11 22:28:23 pklaus has joined
1439 2012-03-11 22:28:52 <etotheipi_> so the network byte for testnet is 111 (6f), does that mean that we would prefix private keys with 239 (ef)?
1440 2012-03-11 22:29:41 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1441 2012-03-11 22:30:41 <tcatm> http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert14.png
1442 2012-03-11 22:32:18 <gmaxwell> That looks nice!
1443 2012-03-11 22:33:10 <gmaxwell> the synchronizing thing has enough space that it could show the heights or the time...
1444 2012-03-11 22:33:21 Samuel has joined
1445 2012-03-11 22:33:22 <gmaxwell> Why are the in/out cons so enormous?
1446 2012-03-11 22:33:32 <Samuel> Hello
1447 2012-03-11 22:33:38 <tcatm> Hey Samuel
1448 2012-03-11 22:33:44 <gmaxwell> I expect alternating backgrounds for the table data would be an improvement.
1449 2012-03-11 22:33:52 <Samuel> I think I'm concept-crazy...
1450 2012-03-11 22:33:52 <tcatm> gmaxwell: No idea. I've been focussing on the sidebar so far.
1451 2012-03-11 22:34:14 <gmaxwell> tcatm: the side bar looked so good all my comments were on everything else. :)
1452 2012-03-11 22:34:15 <tcatm> Samuel: Latest screenshot: http://188.138.99.157/stuff/qtvert14.png
1453 2012-03-11 22:34:37 <Samuel> I came up with this: http://cl.ly/3r3r0Y1x1u2U2G0P470G I have no idea why I'm still making mockups.
1454 2012-03-11 22:34:38 <TD> looks very nice so far
1455 2012-03-11 22:34:54 <Samuel> tcatm: nice, I like the progress bar
1456 2012-03-11 22:35:30 <gmaxwell> tcatm: the # transactions and unconfirmed could potentialy also move into the sidebar, allowing the removal of that wallet box.
1457 2012-03-11 22:35:50 JRWR has quit (Quit: BTC Welcome: 19QtYzmENUmqRhvjEvHsz785rqZ5RRcZG4)
1458 2012-03-11 22:35:57 <TD> Samuel: you could send some of those mockups to jim burton of multibit
1459 2012-03-11 22:35:57 <gmaxwell> er. I should shut up. You don't want to take UI advice from me. :)
1460 2012-03-11 22:36:05 <TD> i think he could multibit could use some UI prettification :)
1461 2012-03-11 22:36:38 <Samuel> Oh wow their app is ugly
1462 2012-03-11 22:37:42 erle- has joined
1463 2012-03-11 22:37:45 <Samuel> The sidebar might be getting "information packed", because remember, the sidebar's main job is for navigation
1464 2012-03-11 22:38:17 <gmaxwell> Perhaps there should be a top or bottom bar with the base information that should always be visible.
1465 2012-03-11 22:38:58 <gmaxwell> (connection status, balance, which wallet is open (once we support multiple wallets))
1466 2012-03-11 22:39:27 <Samuel> Are their any other bitcoin clients for mac?
1467 2012-03-11 22:39:39 <TD> Samuel: yeah. multibit is a little opaque.
1468 2012-03-11 22:39:50 <TD> Samuel: AFAIK bitcoin-qt and multibit are the only ones with good mac integration
1469 2012-03-11 22:40:07 <TD> multi-bit is java, actually, but jim did a nice job of Mac-ifying it, so it's all just drag/drop
1470 2012-03-11 22:41:47 <t7> man it takes forever to download the blockchain :(
1471 2012-03-11 22:42:10 <TD> t7: yes. if all you want to do is send/receive coins, multibit has the advantage of being a lot faster
1472 2012-03-11 22:42:16 <TD> as it's a lightweight client
1473 2012-03-11 22:42:18 <TD> (can't mine)
1474 2012-03-11 22:42:46 <t7> i want to contribute to bitcoin
1475 2012-03-11 22:42:55 <TD> t7: contribute how
1476 2012-03-11 22:43:06 <t7> source codez
1477 2012-03-11 22:43:16 <gmaxwell> t7: then you can start by fixing the poor performance in the initial blockchain sync. :)
1478 2012-03-11 22:43:40 <gmaxwell> (it's just a software issue— if you run the client on tmpfs on a fast system you can do the whole sync in a half hour or so)
1479 2012-03-11 22:43:54 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: testnet isn't really 111
1480 2012-03-11 22:44:30 <etotheipi_> luke-jr, well it sure works when I set the network byte to 0x6f
1481 2012-03-11 22:45:03 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: 111 was when an arbitrary number was used. at some point, someone should change it to some standard
1482 2012-03-11 22:45:17 <luke-jr> gruez: OK, try this: http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/bitcoind.exe
1483 2012-03-11 22:45:24 <TD> Samuel: do you know programming or just ui stuff?
1484 2012-03-11 22:45:50 <tcatm> Latest code pushed to https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin/tree/new-gui :)
1485 2012-03-11 22:46:16 <luke-jr> speaking of UI stuff…
1486 2012-03-11 22:46:23 <Samuel> TD: Just graphic design, I may get into programming when I'm older. (I'm only 14, didn't know if you guys knew that.)
1487 2012-03-11 22:46:26 <luke-jr> Samuel: any ideas on unifying Sign Message and Verify Message?
1488 2012-03-11 22:46:53 <TD> Samuel: well, god knows the bitcoin community can always use more graphics designers :)
1489 2012-03-11 22:47:04 <Samuel> Td: definitely
1490 2012-03-11 22:47:38 <Samuel> luke-jr: Explain what you mean by Sign message and Verify Message
1491 2012-03-11 22:48:11 <TD> luke is asking for a simple and intuitive UI for something that's not simple or intuitive :)
1492 2012-03-11 22:48:30 <TD> do you understand what digital signatures are?
1493 2012-03-11 22:48:46 <Samuel> I don't think so...
1494 2012-03-11 22:48:50 <andytoshi> do you understand asymmetric cryptography?
1495 2012-03-11 22:49:06 <luke-jr> Samuel: http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/screenshots/snapshot77.png
1496 2012-03-11 22:49:08 <TD> btw, research has shown that ~nobody understands asymmetric crypto, including most computer science PhDs :)
1497 2012-03-11 22:49:46 <TD> Samuel: so, bitcoin works like this. you create a private key (big random number, impossible to guess). then you do a calculation on it to get the "public key"
1498 2012-03-11 22:49:55 <TD> you can give the public key to whoever wants it
1499 2012-03-11 22:50:00 <Samuel> I'm not that dumb lol
1500 2012-03-11 22:50:04 <Samuel> ok
1501 2012-03-11 22:50:11 <TD> it's useful because you can take the private key, and use it to calculate a signature over a message
1502 2012-03-11 22:50:17 <TD> the signature is itself just a large pair of numbers
1503 2012-03-11 22:50:28 <TD> anyone can take the message, the signature and the public key
1504 2012-03-11 22:50:40 <TD> and verify that the signature is valid, ie, only you (the owner of the private key) could have made it
1505 2012-03-11 22:50:44 <Samuel> Yes, so you want to unify those two tabs together?
1506 2012-03-11 22:50:50 <luke-jr> Samuel: can you think of an equally intuitive way to add a Verify function to that screen?
1507 2012-03-11 22:50:53 <gmaxwell> TD: Some is pretty easy to understand. I like using lamport signatures to get people to accept that secure digital signatures are possible. (people seem to have an easier time coping with one way functions than the non-invertablity of the ECC field operations)
1508 2012-03-11 22:50:57 <TD> the screenshot is only for signing.
1509 2012-03-11 22:51:02 <TD> you need a way to be able to verify too
1510 2012-03-11 22:51:11 <Samuel> I see
1511 2012-03-11 22:51:24 <Samuel> Hmm, let me think  about it
1512 2012-03-11 22:51:42 <TD> luke-jr: showing an unintuitive way first may help
1513 2012-03-11 22:51:50 <Samuel> Yes, ok
1514 2012-03-11 22:52:05 <TD> luke-jr: btw that dialog should probably include a date in the default message. signing messages without dates is dangerous
1515 2012-03-11 22:52:09 <TD> s/date/timestamp/
1516 2012-03-11 22:52:18 <luke-jr> TD: not a bad idea
1517 2012-03-11 22:52:58 <TD> luke-jr: hmm, how does this work again? the base64 is just the signature, then it does public key derivation and see if any of the keys match the given address?
1518 2012-03-11 22:53:40 <gmaxwell> TD: the signmessage signtures contain enough information to uniquely derive the public key.
1519 2012-03-11 22:53:53 <TD> gmaxwell: right, so the index of the derived key
1520 2012-03-11 22:53:58 <luke-jr> TD: to verify, you provide message+sig, and it gives you the address
1521 2012-03-11 22:54:44 <luke-jr> my idea was to reorder the UI so message is on top, then address and sig under that, with Sign/Verify buttons in between them
1522 2012-03-11 22:54:52 <gmaxwell> The RPC API makes you provide the address and it returns true/false, which guards against some stupid usage— e.g. signing with a lookalike address... but it wasn't an intentional design, just holdover from the time before recovery was added I assume.
1523 2012-03-11 22:54:59 <luke-jr> but the bottom-to-middle direction might not be intuitive
1524 2012-03-11 22:54:59 <TD> luke-jr: if there's a standard way to put signatures inline, you could just copy/paste the whole thing into the central box and have the address appear at the top after the paste operation
1525 2012-03-11 22:55:20 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: perhaps we should require the address on the GUI too then?
1526 2012-03-11 22:55:24 <TD> so there'd be no need for a verify button at all
1527 2012-03-11 22:55:31 <tcatm> What about using a similiar format like GPG's ascii armor? Thus one could simple paste the message + signature there.
1528 2012-03-11 22:55:32 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: then it's just a matter of makign Signature editable, and dispalying "OK" or "Bad"
1529 2012-03-11 22:55:40 <TD> i suspect having the signature not be inline will lead to weird bugs with line wrapping and trailing/leading whitespace
1530 2012-03-11 22:55:49 <TD> tcatm: exactly. except the GPG format is ugly as hell :)
1531 2012-03-11 22:56:02 * luke-jr doesn't dislike the GPG format
1532 2012-03-11 22:56:06 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_ had some opinions on this point and a proposed format.
1533 2012-03-11 22:56:21 <TD> you could just have the message and then a Signature: ........ line at the end
1534 2012-03-11 22:56:33 <TD> if the spec requires you to strip trailing and leading whitespace it'd probably be robust enough
1535 2012-03-11 22:56:43 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I don't know— I have mixed feelings. Having to provide the address is a bit annoying, and its not strictly required... but it does guard against some user error.
1536 2012-03-11 22:57:10 <Samuel> TD: So what is the difference between the two keys in the snapshot? (With the text area in between them)
1537 2012-03-11 22:57:32 <TD> Samuel: ah. the top thing is an address (short form of the public key). the bottom thing is a signature
1538 2012-03-11 22:57:36 <t7> ah man it just crashed out and is doing the whole blockchain again
1539 2012-03-11 22:57:36 <TD> there is no label
1540 2012-03-11 22:57:45 <tcatm> I think a ---BEGIN ECC SIGNATURE-- --END...-- wrapper would still be better.
1541 2012-03-11 22:57:47 <TD> that seems ...... suboptimal. the signature field should really be labelled.
1542 2012-03-11 22:57:49 <t7> do i need alot of ram?
1543 2012-03-11 22:58:00 <tcatm> Even if it's only a single line of signature.
1544 2012-03-11 22:58:09 <TD> tcatm: why?
1545 2012-03-11 22:58:12 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: lookalike addresses are going to be a user-error problem pretty much everywhere in the UI
1546 2012-03-11 22:58:38 <andytoshi> maybe we want to hash the address into say, four primary colors, and display that beside all addresses
1547 2012-03-11 22:58:47 <TD> andytoshi: ideally there'd be a way to turn an address/pubkey into a visual badge, kind of like that blog thing that renders IP addresses visually
1548 2012-03-11 22:58:50 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: no — the software normally only tells you your own addresses (or addreses that paid you)
1549 2012-03-11 22:59:13 <Samuel> TD: So do you use the longer one in replacement of the shorter one?
1550 2012-03-11 22:59:15 <TD> ah ha
1551 2012-03-11 22:59:15 <TD> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identicon
1552 2012-03-11 22:59:25 <tcatm> It has a "do not even think about changing this" feel.
1553 2012-03-11 22:59:31 <gmaxwell> TD: it's not hard to search for similar stupid pictures too.
1554 2012-03-11 22:59:55 tribbler has joined
1555 2012-03-11 23:00:32 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: in any case, having the user provide the expected address mostly closes the lookalike problem there.
1556 2012-03-11 23:01:26 <TD> http://www.thevash.com/
1557 2012-03-11 23:01:30 <TD> that's an interesting variant
1558 2012-03-11 23:01:37 <andytoshi> true, i can't think of a way to phish around it off the top of my head
1559 2012-03-11 23:01:37 <TD> i wonder how easy it is to brute force a similar image
1560 2012-03-11 23:01:53 h4ckm3 has quit (Quit: changing servers)
1561 2012-03-11 23:02:19 <gmaxwell> Maybe I drempt it, but I recall someone making a tool to do that for the SSH doodles.
1562 2012-03-11 23:02:33 <andytoshi> the idea would be, if you brute-force a similar image, you'd have to really mangle the address
1563 2012-03-11 23:02:41 <andytoshi> so either way, you'd be caught
1564 2012-03-11 23:02:57 <TD> Samuel: http://pastebin.com/6470xpU8
1565 2012-03-11 23:03:10 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: no, you don't... it's just simply more bits to search.
1566 2012-03-11 23:03:29 <TD> Samuel: that's kind of how it works.
1567 2012-03-11 23:03:35 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: it's not like you were going to fix more than a few digits of the address anyways.. so you use the ones you're not fixing to search the image space.
1568 2012-03-11 23:03:40 <TD> Samuel: now you can take that block of text and mathematically check the validity of the statement
1569 2012-03-11 23:03:53 <TD> or at least you could, if there was a gui for it. now you have to use the command line
1570 2012-03-11 23:03:58 <andytoshi> i was thinking you'd have to match first six digits to phish
1571 2012-03-11 23:04:09 <andytoshi> and that we could make that harder by a factor of a few hundred
1572 2012-03-11 23:04:18 <TD> gmaxwell: visual hashes are still useful for quick checks and raising the bar. right now you don't even have to do a brute force search
1573 2012-03-11 23:04:24 <andytoshi> that puts the difficulty onto the order of weeks
1574 2012-03-11 23:04:40 <luke-jr> weeks isn't difficult.
1575 2012-03-11 23:04:45 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: six digits times a few hundred is not "on the order of weeks"
1576 2012-03-11 23:04:46 <andytoshi> true, but you'd really need to target your phishing attempts
1577 2012-03-11 23:04:49 <TD> gmaxwell: and just generally would make the UI look a bit prettier and easier to handle. showing raw addresses is really the most useless UI imaginable
1578 2012-03-11 23:04:56 phantomfakeBNC has quit (Quit: changing servers)
1579 2012-03-11 23:05:17 <andytoshi> on my system, vanitygen'ing for 1andrew says it'll take 20 days
1580 2012-03-11 23:05:22 * luke-jr pokes gruez
1581 2012-03-11 23:05:46 <TD> tcatm: http://pastebin.com/6470xpU8 if you look at that, it's very easy and not intrusive. having to mark the begin and end of the message explicitly is pretty ugly. i mean i wouldn't want to do that for every single message I post, but a single line at the end is ok
1582 2012-03-11 23:05:54 diki has joined
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1584 2012-03-11 23:06:02 <diki> I just now sent a PM to a user
1585 2012-03-11 23:06:07 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: well, you're slow then. :) Since I have vanity adresses that are a complexity of six digits times a few thousand.
1586 2012-03-11 23:06:14 <diki> to properly thank him for showing me the world of bitcoin
1587 2012-03-11 23:06:28 <diki> and to thank him for the price jump that happened because of him
1588 2012-03-11 23:06:34 <gmaxwell> TD: the fun thing you can do is insert an expensive hash function (E.g. scrypt kdf) between the address and the pictogram, making searches very expensive.
1589 2012-03-11 23:06:59 <TD> that works too
1590 2012-03-11 23:07:11 <TD> oh, hmm, too bad
1591 2012-03-11 23:07:17 <TD> vash is AGPL or commercial licensed.
1592 2012-03-11 23:07:26 <TD> not compatible with bitcoin. the resulting images are very nice though
1593 2012-03-11 23:07:31 <gmaxwell> Yes. Already noticed, though there are a bunch of those things.
1594 2012-03-11 23:07:37 <tcatm> TD: Mkay. Maybe I'm just accustomed to GPG. Maybe s/Signature/BITCOIN-SIGNATURE/ might still be a good idea (or even ECC-SIGNATURE) just so people know what kind of signature it is.
1595 2012-03-11 23:08:10 <TD> tcatm: i guess it should be obvious from the message/context, but sure.
1596 2012-03-11 23:08:20 enquirer has joined
1597 2012-03-11 23:09:19 <tcatm> I wonder if OpenSSL could verify such signatures (using the CLI tools).
1598 2012-03-11 23:09:46 <andytoshi> that would be very convienient for people without bitcoin
1599 2012-03-11 23:09:56 <gmaxwell> No. Openssl has no public key recovery.
1600 2012-03-11 23:10:04 <XMPPwocky> tcatm: i really don't think that should be in OpenSSL
1601 2012-03-11 23:10:16 <XMPPwocky> that's like asking for JSON support in bash
1602 2012-03-11 23:10:19 <gmaxwell> TD: the scheme used by ssh is documented here http://blog.calyptix.com/2008/06/visualizing-ssh-fingerprints.html
1603 2012-03-11 23:10:39 <tcatm> XMPPwocky: OpenSSL can already verify other signatures.
1604 2012-03-11 23:10:42 <TD> oh yes, i've seen that
1605 2012-03-11 23:10:49 <TD> i'm not sure ascii art is the best way to go :)
1606 2012-03-11 23:11:12 <gmaxwell> Also see: http://www.dirk-loss.de/sshvis/drunken_bishop.pdf
1607 2012-03-11 23:12:16 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
1608 2012-03-11 23:13:20 <gmaxwell> (the paper constructs similar visual fingerprints)
1609 2012-03-11 23:13:32 Z0rZ0rZ0r1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1610 2012-03-11 23:14:04 <gmaxwell> (and they managed to find exact collisions, in fact)
1611 2012-03-11 23:14:42 [eval] has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1612 2012-03-11 23:14:50 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1614 2012-03-11 23:15:25 merde has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1615 2012-03-11 23:15:49 paraipan has joined
1616 2012-03-11 23:16:07 <TD> http://robohash.org/
1617 2012-03-11 23:16:11 <TD> that's an amusing implementation
1618 2012-03-11 23:17:52 <tribbler> cool haha
1619 2012-03-11 23:18:20 Samuel has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1620 2012-03-11 23:18:59 <tribbler> http://unicornify.appspot.com/whats-this  unicorn hashes!
1621 2012-03-11 23:19:15 <gmaxwell> Sort of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernoff_face
1622 2012-03-11 23:19:58 <tribbler> is that the original rageface
1623 2012-03-11 23:20:13 <[Tycho]> Like gravatars
1624 2012-03-11 23:20:25 <TD> http://unicornify.appspot.com/making-of
1625 2012-03-11 23:20:27 <TD> lol
1626 2012-03-11 23:20:43 <TD> funny algorithm. more sophisticated than i thought
1627 2012-03-11 23:20:58 larsivi has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1628 2012-03-11 23:21:31 <TD> it's open source too
1629 2012-03-11 23:21:42 <tribbler> nice
1630 2012-03-11 23:22:04 larsivi has joined
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1632 2012-03-11 23:22:40 <gmaxwell> Basically none of them seem to have done anything to try to flatten the perceptual non-uniformity of their output— e.g. it could be that 90% of the inputs fall into a single class that people would reconize as all being identical.
1633 2012-03-11 23:23:26 <gmaxwell> Which might be enough to get you non-duplicates only when some badguy isn't trying...
1634 2012-03-11 23:25:33 Cory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1635 2012-03-11 23:26:39 <t7> does the official bitcoin client have a thin-client mode?
1636 2012-03-11 23:26:44 <andytoshi> nope
1637 2012-03-11 23:27:16 <gmaxwell> Not yet— it's something a number of people have expressed interest in having someday.
1638 2012-03-11 23:27:35 <luke-jr> wow, Eligius has 0% invalid shares incoming right now
1639 2012-03-11 23:27:37 <t7> so people are using bitcoinj for that?
1640 2012-03-11 23:27:48 <andytoshi> is there a standard protocal or something for thin-clients?
1641 2012-03-11 23:27:54 <luke-jr> t7: there are more than 2 implementations
1642 2012-03-11 23:28:07 <TD> andytoshi: yes there is
1643 2012-03-11 23:28:17 <TD> andytoshi: it's more about how the implementation works than the protocol though
1644 2012-03-11 23:28:18 <t7> luke-jr can you point me to any?
1645 2012-03-11 23:28:20 <gmaxwell> t7: bitcoinj is a SPV node, not a thin client by our normal language.
1646 2012-03-11 23:28:31 <tribbler> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/
1647 2012-03-11 23:28:50 <luke-jr> t7: I keep a list of git-using Bitcoin projects at http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/
1648 2012-03-11 23:29:18 Cory has joined
1649 2012-03-11 23:29:18 <TD> bitcoinj uses git as well these days
1650 2012-03-11 23:29:36 <luke-jr> TD: you should add it to BitGit ;p
1651 2012-03-11 23:31:09 [eval] has joined
1652 2012-03-11 23:31:13 <t7> anyone used libbitcoin?
1653 2012-03-11 23:31:31 <andytoshi> nope
1654 2012-03-11 23:31:33 <luke-jr> I presume genjix has some kind of client using it
1655 2012-03-11 23:31:43 <luke-jr> libcoin includes example bitcoind and Bitcoin-Qt clones
1656 2012-03-11 23:32:16 <luke-jr> afaik neither of those support light clients tho
1657 2012-03-11 23:34:13 <sipa> what is understood under "light client" exactly?
1658 2012-03-11 23:34:16 <sipa> headers-only?
1659 2012-03-11 23:34:22 <TD> afaik only bitcoinj implements SPV mode. there are some other codebases that do the 'superlightweight' thing where everything except signing is handled by the server
1660 2012-03-11 23:34:56 <sipa> yes, Electrum and bitcoin-js, afaik
1661 2012-03-11 23:35:55 <t7> bitcoinJ looks really easy to integrate, shame its in java
1662 2012-03-11 23:36:04 <luke-jr> XD
1663 2012-03-11 23:36:12 <TD> what is it you want to do?
1664 2012-03-11 23:36:30 <luke-jr> actually… TD: is GCJ to native code supported? :
1665 2012-03-11 23:36:32 <luke-jr> :p
1666 2012-03-11 23:36:41 <TD> it should be
1667 2012-03-11 23:36:47 <t7> TD just send receive and query balance etc
1668 2012-03-11 23:36:49 <TD> the java used in it is pretty straightforward/simple stuff
1669 2012-03-11 23:36:59 <TD> CNI would let you use it from c++, i think
1670 2012-03-11 23:37:02 <TD> though that's kind of bizarre.
1671 2012-03-11 23:37:35 <TD> t7: well if you want to make yourself a wallet, bitcoinj isn't a bad place to start. you can use other languages with the JVM. it won't let you query the balance of arbitrary addresses though
1672 2012-03-11 23:38:09 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 820000
1673 2012-03-11 23:38:10 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 820000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1496978.5950256 , is 12 weeks, 6 days, 18 hours, and 22 seconds
1674 2012-03-11 23:41:54 <yellowhat> bitcoinspinner does superlightweight IMO :)
1675 2012-03-11 23:42:17 dvide has joined
1676 2012-03-11 23:43:05 <TD> yes it does
1677 2012-03-11 23:47:47 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1678 2012-03-11 23:48:12 <TD> luke-jr: i might experiment with a thin c++ wrapper lib around bitcoinj at some point, for people who want to do that (i'm not sure why)
1679 2012-03-11 23:48:18 <TD> it doesn't look very hard
1680 2012-03-11 23:50:59 <graingert> make a jython wrapper
1681 2012-03-11 23:51:00 <yellowhat> you mean to enable c++ to use bitcoinj under the cover?
1682 2012-03-11 23:51:05 <TD> yes
1683 2012-03-11 23:51:28 <TD> yellowhat: it would result in a lib[bit]coin-ish type API i guess.
1684 2012-03-11 23:51:36 <sipa> a devil in disguise!
1685 2012-03-11 23:51:40 <graingert> and then get bitcoinj to use JNI
1686 2012-03-11 23:52:20 <TD> well
1687 2012-03-11 23:52:26 <TD> i don't think it'll ever be exposed via JNI
1688 2012-03-11 23:52:31 <TD> it'd be GCJs CNI or nothing
1689 2012-03-11 23:52:33 <TD> JNI is just awful
1690 2012-03-11 23:52:48 <yellowhat> i'm currently using bitcoinj for a standalone android program and i think the api and code is nice. JNI would mess everything up
1691 2012-03-11 23:53:04 <graingert> how does android handle native mode?
1692 2012-03-11 23:53:08 <TD> exposing it via CNI wouldn't change anything for java developers
1693 2012-03-11 23:53:11 <graingert> I know skype uses it for audio codecz
1694 2012-03-11 23:53:15 <TD> graingert: it supports JNI
1695 2012-03-11 23:53:30 <TD> there's also a C++ native API that offers a subset of the java api
1696 2012-03-11 23:53:37 <TD> enough for games, basically, and nothing else
1697 2012-03-11 23:53:59 * TD -> sleep
1698 2012-03-11 23:54:03 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1699 2012-03-11 23:55:26 <graingert> https://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html
1700 2012-03-11 23:56:03 h4ckm3 has joined
1701 2012-03-11 23:57:28 <yellowhat> personally, i think it makes a lot more sense to have a bitcoin implementation in java/ruby/python than in c/c++ the managed code eliminates a lot of error types. but this is only from my personal viewpoint, since i always mess up with manual memory management once complex algos + data structures are involved
1702 2012-03-11 23:57:34 cande has joined
1703 2012-03-11 23:58:03 <luke-jr> yellowhat: "managed code" doesn't make errors less likely, just less debuggable ;p
1704 2012-03-11 23:58:30 <yellowhat> well, memory leaks and buffer overflows for example