1 2012-03-13 00:00:19 <sipa> gavinandresen: wait, not shown in GUI, but still in strSubVersion?
2 2012-03-13 00:01:17 <gavinandresen> uhhh.... whatever it does with the internal 600003 now.... (0.6.0.3 ? or does it truncate to just 0.6.0 ?)
3 2012-03-13 00:01:29 <sipa> 0.6.0.3
4 2012-03-13 00:01:54 <gavinandresen> Good, that seems like the right thing-- easier to figure out version from bug reports
5 2012-03-13 00:02:14 <sipa> actually, 600003 would be 0.60.0.3
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7 2012-03-13 00:04:04 <sipa> gavinandresen: in that case i prefer doing it correctly, and do rc's entirely separate
8 2012-03-13 00:04:59 <gavinandresen> what do you mean? I like the "absolutely no code changes between last release candidate and final release" property
9 2012-03-13 00:05:16 Samuel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
10 2012-03-13 00:05:52 <sipa> I don't like reporting 0.6.0's version as 0.6.0.3 if it is 0.6.0
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15 2012-03-13 00:08:42 <sipa> other idea: introduce a "build number", that only increases, and is not directly related to version numbers
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17 2012-03-13 00:09:44 <gavinandresen> build time would be great... but would be a gitian nightmare. commit id from git would be cool...
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19 2012-03-13 00:10:23 <sipa> well, you could count the number of commits
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21 2012-03-13 00:10:39 <gavinandresen> You sure the GUI shows all the digits in the version? I coulda sworn it would show 0.6.0-beta for all of 60003
22 2012-03-13 00:11:03 <gavinandresen> (err, 60000 through 60099)
23 2012-03-13 00:11:12 <sipa> FormatVersion() does show the last digit yes
24 2012-03-13 00:11:53 <gavinandresen> yep, you're right
25 2012-03-13 00:16:11 <sipa> $(git rev-list --no-merges --all | wc -l) could be a "build number"
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27 2012-03-13 00:20:05 <sipa> now, if you go report this in the strSubVersion, you have a problem: because alerts would need carry large lists of builds
28 2012-03-13 00:20:24 <sipa> if you don't, we haven't solved the initial issue, of being able to distinguish rc's in alerts
29 2012-03-13 00:21:41 peck has joined
30 2012-03-13 00:23:04 <userjgh> samuel: you there?
31 2012-03-13 00:23:39 TD has joined
32 2012-03-13 00:27:14 <sipa> gavinandresen: what about indeed hiding the last two digits of CLIENT_VERSION, but using CLIENT_VERSION in AppliesToMe?
33 2012-03-13 00:27:22 <graingert> alerts should probably be an https:// link and an SSL public key
34 2012-03-13 00:27:43 <graingert> you can then store as much as you like on your webserver
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36 2012-03-13 00:28:33 <gavinandresen> What's the issue with showing the full version in the gui? Just ugliness?
37 2012-03-13 00:29:26 <sipa> yes, basically :)
38 2012-03-13 00:30:05 <gavinandresen> You're version-meister, but simpler is better. It's not worth something complicated to avoid a little CAlert hackery every year or three.
39 2012-03-13 00:30:33 <gavinandresen> Just checked, and my mac's full version is: Mac OS X 10.6.8 (10K549)
40 2012-03-13 00:30:42 <gavinandresen> I have no idea what 10K549 means.
41 2012-03-13 00:32:43 <sipa> "simpler is better" -> it's removing 2 lines of code, and changing 10 characters
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44 2012-03-13 00:33:58 <gavinandresen> ok. I'm tired and grumpy... change it tomorrow when we're fresh and we'll spin a rc3 first thing tomorrow?
45 2012-03-13 00:34:18 <sipa> ok
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50 2012-03-13 00:42:55 <userjgh> hi, is it on any dev, keys that expire?
51 2012-03-13 00:43:33 <userjgh> so users can't send btc to it after a specific date
52 2012-03-13 00:43:52 <userjgh> any dev todo list
53 2012-03-13 00:44:04 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356])
54 2012-03-13 00:44:45 <sipa> how could you prevent sending coins to it?
55 2012-03-13 00:44:49 booo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
56 2012-03-13 00:45:12 <sipa> unless you encode the expiry time in the address, and hope the sender obeys it
57 2012-03-13 00:45:25 <userjgh> sipa: i really don't know. i just read a paper about it
58 2012-03-13 00:45:40 <iz> also, since there's a 1-1 relationship btw keys and bitcoin addrs, wouldn't that lead to a DoS vuln?
59 2012-03-13 00:45:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: just make a convention 1AAAAA#2012-03-13
60 2012-03-13 00:46:06 <gmaxwell> iz: there is no such 1-1 convention, and never was.
61 2012-03-13 00:46:31 <gmaxwell> (at best you could have said there is a 1-2 relationship!)
62 2012-03-13 00:46:53 <iz> gmaxwell: so there can exist 2 idential bitcoin addresses that actually go to 2 different wallet keypairs?
63 2012-03-13 00:47:08 <sipa> iz: absolutely
64 2012-03-13 00:47:26 <sipa> there are only 2^160 addresses, and there are 2^256 keypairs
65 2012-03-13 00:47:29 <gmaxwell> iz: yes, but more pratically there are two addresses you can get out out of any private key.
66 2012-03-13 00:47:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: 4!
67 2012-03-13 00:48:00 <sipa> (compressed/noncompressed, pubkeyhash/scripthash)
68 2012-03-13 00:48:17 <gmaxwell> Yea, I meant even before p2sh. :)
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79 2012-03-13 01:03:42 <[Tycho]> int64 nMinFee = (1 + (int64)nBytes / 1000) * CENT;
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81 2012-03-13 01:03:49 <[Tycho]> Why 1000 instead of 1024 ?
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85 2012-03-13 01:04:17 <splatster> I can't get bitcoind to compile on OS X
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89 2012-03-13 01:07:05 <[Prayer]> userjgh: I actually posted on teh forum about something similar... an endorsement system, for a lack of a better phrase that would enable the recipient to endorse a transaction before it was accepted into the blockchain
90 2012-03-13 01:07:34 <[Prayer]> it's apparently a non-starter though... except maybe as a hardfork feature
91 2012-03-13 01:07:57 <userjgh> link?
92 2012-03-13 01:08:13 <[Prayer]> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67431.0
93 2012-03-13 01:08:22 <[Prayer]> be careful reading my random thoughts though :)
94 2012-03-13 01:08:44 <userjgh> i'm not a dev, just an user
95 2012-03-13 01:09:17 <[Prayer]> kk... then be extra careful :)
96 2012-03-13 01:09:42 <[Prayer]> ideas and concepts come easy to me, implementation comes hard
97 2012-03-13 01:09:49 <sipa> [Tycho]: why not?
98 2012-03-13 01:09:54 rudrigorc2 is now known as rudrigorc2-afk
99 2012-03-13 01:10:46 <[Tycho]> sipa: to be precise. Most sites show TX size in kilobytes, not thousands of bytes.
100 2012-03-13 01:12:03 <gmaxwell> in kibibytes you mean, to be precise.
101 2012-03-13 01:12:28 <[Tycho]> I don't believe in kibibytes, actually.
102 2012-03-13 01:12:48 * [Prayer] cheers... another person who turns green when he sees KiB and other crap like it
103 2012-03-13 01:13:00 <gmaxwell> Fortunately international standards care little for what random people on IRC think about them.
104 2012-03-13 01:13:08 andytoshi has joined
105 2012-03-13 01:13:08 <[Tycho]> Kilobyte = Kb = 1024b
106 2012-03-13 01:13:50 <[Tycho]> KiB and so on reminds me of tonal system.
107 2012-03-13 01:13:55 <gmaxwell> (especially when they make fools of themselves trying to apply the 1024x multipliers to things that were always powers of 10 like megabits)
108 2012-03-13 01:14:19 <sipa> [Tycho]: using 1024 as a base for counting reminds me of tonal
109 2012-03-13 01:14:22 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: yes, KiB (the 1024 counting that you're advocating) is like tonal. ...
110 2012-03-13 01:14:30 <gmaxwell> (very compatible with it in fact!)
111 2012-03-13 01:14:46 <gmaxwell> we should shutup before we invoke l u k e.
112 2012-03-13 01:14:48 <sipa> I find it weird that kilo- everywhere means thousand, except in some places for amounts in bytes, where it means 1024, something which is terrible inconvenient to use in calculations
113 2012-03-13 01:15:18 <andytoshi> if you think in hex most of the time, it's much more convienent
114 2012-03-13 01:15:20 <andytoshi> or even base 8
115 2012-03-13 01:15:24 <sipa> do you?
116 2012-03-13 01:15:42 <sipa> (i know all powers of two by heart until 27, and i don't)
117 2012-03-13 01:15:44 <[Prayer]> sipa, I always have fun telling customers that HDD manufacturers count differently than OS publishers :)
118 2012-03-13 01:15:49 [Tycho] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
119 2012-03-13 01:16:05 <andytoshi> when i'm coding, i often think in hex, and when i need to do a lot of arithmetic, i use base 8
120 2012-03-13 01:16:08 <andytoshi> i default to 10, though
121 2012-03-13 01:16:23 onebitatatime has joined
122 2012-03-13 01:16:47 <splatster> <sarcasm> I use base 9751! </sarcasm>
123 2012-03-13 01:16:55 <sipa> I use base phi.
124 2012-03-13 01:17:03 <andytoshi> excellent
125 2012-03-13 01:17:15 <splatster> I think in base e.
126 2012-03-13 01:17:15 <andytoshi> you probably don't see what the big deal with the fibonacci sequence is
127 2012-03-13 01:17:21 [Tycho] has joined
128 2012-03-13 01:17:24 <andytoshi> just a bunch of losers who don't bother to round..
129 2012-03-13 01:17:39 <sipa> [Prayer]: HDD manufacturers obviously use the side that fits them best, but I do not think they are at fault
130 2012-03-13 01:17:42 <Graet> all your base belong to me!!
131 2012-03-13 01:18:21 <[Prayer]> sipa, I know. that doesn't take the fun out of watching people's faces when you try to explain the difference between binary and decimal math
132 2012-03-13 01:19:52 <andytoshi> or even explaining why anybody would think 1024 is a round number
133 2012-03-13 01:20:08 <sipa> Never trust a man who can count to 1023 on his fingers.
134 2012-03-13 01:20:27 <splatster> lol
135 2012-03-13 01:21:07 <andytoshi> haha
136 2012-03-13 01:23:33 <[Prayer]> 1023 assumes that 0 is a valid number for counting, which some people seem to have a problem with
137 2012-03-13 01:23:50 <[Prayer]> even though they will all agree that an empty bucket has 0 widgets in it
138 2012-03-13 01:24:01 <Someguy123> guys, are there any sort of rules for bitcoin accounts? as in via the RPC
139 2012-03-13 01:24:49 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
140 2012-03-13 01:26:21 word has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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142 2012-03-13 01:26:52 <sipa> Someguy123: what kind of rules?
143 2012-03-13 01:27:06 <Someguy123> sipa as in maximum length, what characters are allowed
144 2012-03-13 01:27:07 <Someguy123> etc.
145 2012-03-13 01:27:43 <Someguy123> because I always seem to have issues when creating accounts using the RPC if theres some sort of character it doesn't like
146 2012-03-13 01:27:46 <splatster> ld: warning: directory not found for option '-L/opt/local/lib/db48'
147 2012-03-13 01:28:05 <Someguy123> sipa I tried passing it an md5'd username to make sure there's no characters it doesn't like
148 2012-03-13 01:28:06 <splatster> ld: library not found for -ldb_cxx-4.8
149 2012-03-13 01:28:06 <splatster> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
150 2012-03-13 01:28:06 <splatster> make: *** [bitcoind] Error 1
151 2012-03-13 01:28:06 <splatster> Any ideas?
152 2012-03-13 01:28:06 <splatster> I'm on OS X, FYI.
153 2012-03-13 01:28:09 <Someguy123> still seems to error out on me
154 2012-03-13 01:28:29 <Someguy123> no wait, i think i'm an idiot
155 2012-03-13 01:28:38 <sipa> Someguy123: almost everything is allowed, except "*"
156 2012-03-13 01:30:10 splatster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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159 2012-03-13 01:30:38 <Someguy123> sipa how would I find out what port bitcoind is using? I haven't set anything, but I don't think it's 8332
160 2012-03-13 01:31:20 splatster has quit (Client Quit)
161 2012-03-13 01:31:49 <Someguy123> oh I think I see where the issue is
162 2012-03-13 01:32:00 splatster has joined
163 2012-03-13 01:32:04 <Someguy123> sipa my script is erroring out because bitcoind doesn't like being the git version
164 2012-03-13 01:32:15 <[Prayer]> splatster: you need to install berkely db
165 2012-03-13 01:32:17 <Someguy123> litecoin@master:~/.bitcoin$ bitcoind getbalance Test
166 2012-03-13 01:32:17 <Someguy123> error: {"code":-2,"message":"Safe mode: WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."}
167 2012-03-13 01:32:44 <Someguy123> sipa any idea how I'd fix that? ^
168 2012-03-13 01:33:43 <[Prayer]> Someguy123: this may help: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=4943.0
169 2012-03-13 01:34:50 <Someguy123> well, [Prayer] not sure if that's the issue
170 2012-03-13 01:36:02 <[Prayer]> dunno then...
171 2012-03-13 01:36:44 <[Prayer]> everything I see is related to a corrupt or incomplete blockchain
172 2012-03-13 01:37:24 <Someguy123> [Prayer] it's a dev version though
173 2012-03-13 01:37:25 <Someguy123> from git
174 2012-03-13 01:37:29 <Someguy123> thats another issue
175 2012-03-13 01:37:32 <Someguy123> this is 0.6
176 2012-03-13 01:37:39 <Someguy123> while the rest of the network is still on 0.5.2
177 2012-03-13 01:37:44 <Someguy123> atleast the majority
178 2012-03-13 01:37:47 <andytoshi> what does bitcoind getblockcount
179 2012-03-13 01:37:48 <andytoshi> say?
180 2012-03-13 01:37:58 <Someguy123> litecoin@master:~/.bitcoin$ bitcoind getblockcount
181 2012-03-13 01:37:58 <Someguy123> 170059
182 2012-03-13 01:38:02 <Someguy123> 170k
183 2012-03-13 01:38:16 <Someguy123> thats the same as my normal bitcoind on my home computer which is working just fine still
184 2012-03-13 01:38:19 <[Prayer]> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67845.0
185 2012-03-13 01:38:27 <andytoshi> yeah, i thought so
186 2012-03-13 01:38:29 <[Prayer]> refresh your source and rebuild
187 2012-03-13 01:38:32 <Someguy123> oh
188 2012-03-13 01:38:33 <Someguy123> right
189 2012-03-13 01:38:34 <andytoshi> if you're at 170059, it's not fine
190 2012-03-13 01:40:23 <Someguy123> oh
191 2012-03-13 01:40:28 <Someguy123> okay, re-git'ing now
192 2012-03-13 01:41:18 * [Prayer] reads the topic...
193 2012-03-13 01:41:24 <[Prayer]> is it ok if I ask permission to ask a question?
194 2012-03-13 01:41:31 <[Prayer]> =D
195 2012-03-13 01:41:41 <Graet> yes, but that was the one q yoiu are allowed :)
196 2012-03-13 01:41:54 <[Prayer]> ahh... bummer
197 2012-03-13 01:41:57 <Graet> lool
198 2012-03-13 01:42:10 <[Prayer]> ugh... I haven't been on IRC in years before today
199 2012-03-13 01:42:20 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
200 2012-03-13 01:42:27 <Graet> welcome back :)
201 2012-03-13 01:42:52 <Someguy123> okay, all up to date now
202 2012-03-13 01:42:56 <Someguy123> hopefully it'll work now
203 2012-03-13 01:43:02 <[Prayer]> started on efnet back in 94 or 95... when IRC was fun :)
204 2012-03-13 01:43:17 <Graet> :)
205 2012-03-13 01:43:24 <[Prayer]> then I got on #FreeBSD and learned how to deal with noobs, idiots, and trolls
206 2012-03-13 01:43:59 <Graet> yer its n ot so fun anymore, but in bitcoin it seems to be a useful tool ;)
207 2012-03-13 01:44:11 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
208 2012-03-13 01:45:28 <Someguy123> okay, nope
209 2012-03-13 01:45:30 knotwork has joined
210 2012-03-13 01:45:31 <Someguy123> didn't fix it
211 2012-03-13 01:45:42 <[Prayer]> is your blockcount increasing?
212 2012-03-13 01:45:45 <Someguy123> i'm still on version 60000 according the bitcoind
213 2012-03-13 01:45:50 <Someguy123> [Prayer] actually it decreased
214 2012-03-13 01:45:56 <Someguy123> i'm down to 170059 now
215 2012-03-13 01:46:05 <[Prayer]> it was 170059 before :)
216 2012-03-13 01:46:12 <Someguy123> oh wait
217 2012-03-13 01:46:14 <Someguy123> yeah it was
218 2012-03-13 01:46:14 <Someguy123> lol
219 2012-03-13 01:46:19 <[Prayer]> if it doesn't increase in the next minute or two, do a -rescan
220 2012-03-13 01:46:22 <Someguy123> [Prayer]
221 2012-03-13 01:46:24 <Someguy123> already did that
222 2012-03-13 01:46:26 <Someguy123> didn't help.
223 2012-03-13 01:46:28 <[Prayer]> if that doesn't do it, then delete the chain and start over :)
224 2012-03-13 01:46:35 <Someguy123> gah
225 2012-03-13 01:46:49 <Someguy123> even with 100mb/s, bitcoind takes 9001 years to download the blockchain
226 2012-03-13 01:47:01 <[Prayer]> I got lucky... git'ed before rc1 and haven't updated yet
227 2012-03-13 01:47:12 <[Prayer]> get a snapshot then
228 2012-03-13 01:47:41 <[Prayer]> or go to bed and check it in the morning
229 2012-03-13 01:49:00 <[Prayer]> good luck with it at any rate
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241 2012-03-13 02:27:55 <Someguy123> [Prayer] well, it works now
242 2012-03-13 02:28:06 <Someguy123> I baleeted the blkindex and blk*'s
243 2012-03-13 02:28:07 <Someguy123> now it works
244 2012-03-13 02:28:42 barmstrong has joined
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252 2012-03-13 02:39:56 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 934 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/934> || TheBlueMatt opened issue 933 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/933>
253 2012-03-13 02:40:19 <luke-jr> I did?
254 2012-03-13 02:40:20 gilm has quit (Quit: Leaving)
255 2012-03-13 02:40:34 knotwork has joined
256 2012-03-13 02:41:28 <Someguy123> luke-jr luke-jr opened this pull request a day ago
257 2012-03-13 02:42:34 att has joined
258 2012-03-13 02:42:42 att is now known as att_
259 2012-03-13 02:43:35 * luke-jr now has a Bitcoin-Qt with GPU and FPGA mining support 8)
260 2012-03-13 02:45:17 <gmaxwell> do we really want all that stuff inside the bitcoin process?
261 2012-03-13 02:45:39 <Diablo-D3> no we dont
262 2012-03-13 02:45:41 <Diablo-D3> threads are for fags
263 2012-03-13 02:45:45 <Diablo-D3> multiple processes forever
264 2012-03-13 02:46:05 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it's not
265 2012-03-13 02:53:57 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: Bitcoin-Qt is controlling an external cgminer process
266 2012-03-13 02:54:59 twmz_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
267 2012-03-13 02:57:00 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: cdparanoia⦠how about minuses?
268 2012-03-13 02:58:33 <Diablo-D3> don't be a douchebag! upvote! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3696474
269 2012-03-13 02:58:37 <luke-jr> aha, found a guide
270 2012-03-13 02:59:24 <gmaxwell> I was going to say, there should be a comprehensive manpage.
271 2012-03-13 02:59:48 <luke-jr> it's not in the manpage that I saw, but I found a website :P
272 2012-03-13 03:00:29 Tykling has joined
273 2012-03-13 03:02:41 <gjs278> I have logged in so I am no longer a douche bag
274 2012-03-13 03:03:41 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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276 2012-03-13 03:05:55 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: sure it is.
277 2012-03-13 03:06:04 <gmaxwell> PROGRESS BAR SYMBOLS
278 2012-03-13 03:06:05 <gmaxwell> <space>
279 2012-03-13 03:06:05 <gmaxwell> No corrections needed
280 2012-03-13 03:06:05 <gmaxwell> - Jitter correction required
281 2012-03-13 03:06:13 <luke-jr> hmm
282 2012-03-13 03:06:18 * luke-jr wonders how he missed it
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289 2012-03-13 03:22:17 <neofutur> hi all
290 2012-03-13 03:22:21 <neofutur> I have only :
291 2012-03-13 03:22:22 <neofutur> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() : ConnectInputs failed 922748f12b
292 2012-03-13 03:22:22 <neofutur> storing orphan tx 922748f12b
293 2012-03-13 03:22:31 <neofutur> in my debug.log
294 2012-03-13 03:22:50 <neofutur> and a transaction I send is not hitting the network
295 2012-03-13 03:24:07 <neofutur> ah no after 30 mins I now have some
296 2012-03-13 03:24:08 <neofutur> ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
297 2012-03-13 03:24:13 <phantomcircuit> neofutur, leave the client open for > 30 minutes
298 2012-03-13 03:25:34 ubnutustudent has joined
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306 2012-03-13 03:52:40 <luke-jr> "hashespersec" : 842900000,
307 2012-03-13 03:56:34 word has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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316 2012-03-13 04:26:21 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
317 2012-03-13 04:28:37 <captain^k> 03/13/12 04:24:13 Loading wallet...
318 2012-03-13 04:28:37 <captain^k> 03/13/12 04:24:13
319 2012-03-13 04:28:37 <captain^k> ************************
320 2012-03-13 04:28:37 <captain^k> EXCEPTION: 11DbException
321 2012-03-13 04:28:37 <captain^k> Db::open: Invalid argument
322 2012-03-13 04:28:39 <captain^k> C:\Program Files (x86)\Bitcoin\bitcoin-qt.exe in Runaway exception
323 2012-03-13 04:28:48 <captain^k> since bitcoin 0.6.0 rc2 on windows
324 2012-03-13 04:29:07 <captain^k> now someone else is getting the same thing with 0.5.3 rc4
325 2012-03-13 04:29:11 <nanotube> what if you go back to older v?
326 2012-03-13 04:29:15 <captain^k> it's eating wallets and making them broken
327 2012-03-13 04:29:36 <captain^k> nanotube: when stepping back it won't read the wallet anymore
328 2012-03-13 04:30:00 <nanotube> captain^k: well, don't point at me, i'm not a dev. :P
329 2012-03-13 04:30:31 <luke-jr> captain^k: how reproducable is it?
330 2012-03-13 04:30:51 <luke-jr> will it break a brand new wallet?
331 2012-03-13 04:32:28 <captain^k> bitcointools says ERROR:root:Couldn't open wallet.dat/main. Try quitting Bitcoin and running this again.
332 2012-03-13 04:32:37 <captain^k> both pywallet tools do it too
333 2012-03-13 04:33:23 <captain^k> luke-jr: I've lost 7 BTC, I hate to see what others have list
334 2012-03-13 04:33:25 <captain^k> *lost
335 2012-03-13 04:34:06 <captain^k> I've had a wallet since v0.3
336 2012-03-13 04:34:09 <luke-jr> captain^k: rename/move wallet.dat away, and see if the new one it makes is also corrupt
337 2012-03-13 04:34:10 <captain^k> and now it's broken
338 2012-03-13 04:34:14 <captain^k> and nothing reads it
339 2012-03-13 04:35:07 <captain^k> it loads fine with a new wallet
340 2012-03-13 04:37:09 <captain^k> I've cut my losses and decided to back things up in future, often
341 2012-03-13 04:37:34 <captain^k> it sucks wallet.dat can't be backed up while bitcoin is running
342 2012-03-13 04:37:53 <nanotube> captain^k: you don't have earlier backups from before the wallet got borked?
343 2012-03-13 04:37:59 <[Tycho]> There are two kinds of people: those who do regular backups and those who don't YET
344 2012-03-13 04:38:10 <nanotube> [Tycho]: lol
345 2012-03-13 04:38:58 <luke-jr> captain^k: even 0.3 did live backups
346 2012-03-13 04:40:23 <captain^k> luke-jr: I read somewhere it wasn't smart
347 2012-03-13 04:40:25 peter345978 has left ()
348 2012-03-13 04:40:26 <sipa> captain^k: there is a backupwallet RPC call
349 2012-03-13 04:40:33 <sipa> captain^k: which works fine
350 2012-03-13 04:40:36 <captain^k> sipa: ah, thanks
351 2012-03-13 04:40:45 <sipa> captain^k: in 0.6.0 there will be a GUI option for the same thing
352 2012-03-13 04:40:51 <captain^k> at least almost 7 BTC isn't a bad thing
353 2012-03-13 04:41:06 <nanotube> captain^k: you may still be able to recover the keys from your wallet...
354 2012-03-13 04:41:14 <captain^k> nanotube: I really want to
355 2012-03-13 04:41:19 <sipa> captain^k: you can try deleting the ___db files and the files in database
356 2012-03-13 04:41:21 <captain^k> nanotube: but bitcointools won't
357 2012-03-13 04:41:41 <captain^k> sipa: I delete everything except wallet.dat and it still crashes
358 2012-03-13 04:41:48 <sipa> aah :(
359 2012-03-13 04:41:58 <sipa> does db4.8_dump work?
360 2012-03-13 04:42:01 <captain^k> sipa: I've even tried that
361 2012-03-13 04:42:12 <nanotube> captain^k: well, when all else fails, there's always just reading the file in a hexeditor. ;)
362 2012-03-13 04:42:21 <nanotube> though that may be more work than 7btc is worth ... heh
363 2012-03-13 04:42:24 <sipa> was it encrypted?
364 2012-03-13 04:42:30 wasabi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
365 2012-03-13 04:42:36 <captain^k> db4.8_dump: __db_meta_setup: main: unexpected file type or format
366 2012-03-13 04:42:36 <captain^k> db4.8_dump: DB->open: ../data-backup/wallet.dat:main: Invalid argument
367 2012-03-13 04:42:38 <sipa> if not, there are some pretty good wallet recovery tools
368 2012-03-13 04:42:38 <captain^k> yes
369 2012-03-13 04:43:03 <captain^k> I've tried jackjack and joric's tools, they both give the same error as gavin's bitcointools
370 2012-03-13 04:43:48 <nanotube> captain^k: i'm sure if you send the wallet to sipa, he'll try to recover the keys for you for a modest 50% fee. :D or something. >_>
371 2012-03-13 04:46:16 <captain^k> hmm, db4.8_dump gives lots of what appears to be encrypted info
372 2012-03-13 04:46:29 <captain^k> when using -R
373 2012-03-13 04:46:58 <captain^k> I only need the private key for one public address
374 2012-03-13 04:47:16 wasabi has joined
375 2012-03-13 04:48:46 <captain^k> sipa: you used db4.8_dump much?
376 2012-03-13 04:53:19 <sipa> captain^k: you can try to load it into a new wallet file using db4.8_load
377 2012-03-13 04:53:32 <sipa> most likely that will have errors, but who knows...
378 2012-03-13 04:53:50 <sipa> you only need the mkey and ckey records, really
379 2012-03-13 04:54:55 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
380 2012-03-13 04:55:02 <captain^k> \m/
381 2012-03-13 04:55:07 <captain^k> the recovery options worked
382 2012-03-13 04:55:23 <captain^k> in db4.8 tools
383 2012-03-13 04:56:14 <sipa> don't celebrate too soon; if the ckey entries are damaged, you mean not be able to spend
384 2012-03-13 04:58:06 ThomasV has joined
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386 2012-03-13 05:08:09 <captain^k> you're right
387 2012-03-13 05:08:18 <captain^k> db4.8_dump -R works
388 2012-03-13 05:08:23 <captain^k> and gives loads of data
389 2012-03-13 05:08:50 <captain^k> I'm not sure how to get it back in to a wallet.dat though
390 2012-03-13 05:14:32 <captain^k> ok I got it back by some sort of magic
391 2012-03-13 05:14:39 <captain^k> I'm never trying RC's again
392 2012-03-13 05:14:42 <captain^k> that was scary
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420 2012-03-13 06:26:51 <diki> is there anything I should configure with 0.5.2?
421 2012-03-13 06:27:00 <diki> I remember some config option about p2sh but unsure
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428 2012-03-13 06:32:08 <diki> I really hate this shit
429 2012-03-13 06:32:16 <diki> it works for a minute and then: error: couldn't connect to server
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436 2012-03-13 06:36:33 <diki> again, two threads die off and the RPC server as well
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631 2012-03-13 11:30:46 <Joric> damn italy, first bitscalper, now this http://goo.gl/CZL19
632 2012-03-13 11:32:11 <Joric> should we expect difficulty growth soon
633 2012-03-13 11:32:44 Cory has quit (Client Quit)
634 2012-03-13 11:34:08 <sipa> what is bitscalper?
635 2012-03-13 11:34:31 <da2ce7> scam
636 2012-03-13 11:34:56 <sturles> Could be someone using GPUmax to mine on their own special pool.
637 2012-03-13 11:37:21 danbri has joined
638 2012-03-13 11:37:50 <Joric> i should build a chart of total number of blocks! not sure if network power increase or just nobody sends coins
639 2012-03-13 11:38:35 <da2ce7> tcatm: you arround?
640 2012-03-13 11:38:59 <Graet> ;;bc,stats
641 2012-03-13 11:39:01 <gribble> Current Blocks: 170971 | Current Difficulty: 1496978.5950256 | Next Difficulty At Block: 171359 | Next Difficulty In: 388 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 10 hours, 57 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1520214.10378154 | Estimated Percent Change: 1.55216038714
642 2012-03-13 11:39:09 <Graet> 1.55% ...
643 2012-03-13 11:42:07 <_W_> Is there a rationale written up somewhere for the choice of 10 minutes for expected time between blocks?
644 2012-03-13 11:42:14 <sipa> see http://bitcoin.sipa.be
645 2012-03-13 11:43:29 denisx has joined
646 2012-03-13 11:43:55 <sipa> hash power seems increasing, but i am unsure whether it is caused by a sudden change
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653 2012-03-13 11:50:48 <da2ce7> _W_: I'm not sure if it is written up formaly anywhere... but it is based upon the 'worst or the worst case of network propogation on the internet'
654 2012-03-13 11:56:21 <Joric> sipa, here http://goo.gl/be5M4
655 2012-03-13 11:56:34 <Joric> Total number of blocks / number of 1-tx blocks
656 2012-03-13 11:56:52 <sipa> if the propagation time through the network is 6 seconds, you would inherently have 1% of stales with 600s blocks
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664 2012-03-13 12:05:04 <Joric_> sipa, does miner get benefits including other ppl transactions into the block? ) why it even should do that
665 2012-03-13 12:05:25 <Joric_> transaction fees?
666 2012-03-13 12:05:32 Joric_ is now known as Joric
667 2012-03-13 12:05:36 Bwild has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
668 2012-03-13 12:06:50 <sipa> ?
669 2012-03-13 12:07:31 <sipa> yes, transaction fees
670 2012-03-13 12:07:49 <sipa> and making bitcoin useful in general
671 2012-03-13 12:09:59 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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677 2012-03-13 12:20:16 <Joric> sipa, miners include other ppl transactions only because they get their transaction fees, right?
678 2012-03-13 12:20:26 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
679 2012-03-13 12:21:22 <Graet> my pool includes free transactions.... so not right eh :)
680 2012-03-13 12:22:13 <Joric> Graet, why you do this?
681 2012-03-13 12:22:24 <Graet> to support the network...
682 2012-03-13 12:22:24 dvide_ has joined
683 2012-03-13 12:22:38 <Graet> most pools accept free txn
684 2012-03-13 12:23:18 <gmaxwell> Joric: it's basically costless to include transactions.
685 2012-03-13 12:24:05 dvide has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
686 2012-03-13 12:25:56 sje has joined
687 2012-03-13 12:27:22 <Graet> i also send free txn, be a bit hypocritical to not accept them ;)
688 2012-03-13 12:29:37 <Joric> hehe if i was a miner i would never process other ppl transactions! :D
689 2012-03-13 12:31:47 <Joric> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=66514.msg775108#msg775108 'Not processing transactions can be considered a "hot fix" for old clients.'
690 2012-03-13 12:31:53 <mrsy> why?
691 2012-03-13 12:32:30 vigilyn has joined
692 2012-03-13 12:33:10 <Graet> pure greed i guess ...
693 2012-03-13 12:33:54 <gmaxwell> Joric: thats not really correct.
694 2012-03-13 12:35:08 Isilion has joined
695 2012-03-13 12:35:25 <Isilion> good morning (here's at the morning)
696 2012-03-13 12:35:35 <Isilion> i got a question for you devs...
697 2012-03-13 12:36:33 <Isilion> It's possible to use Bitcoind tecnology to make another currency? I mean, using p2p transactions, anonymous, etc.
698 2012-03-13 12:36:51 <Graet> yes, several have been tried
699 2012-03-13 12:37:16 <Graet> see alternative cryptocurrencies on bitcointalk.org
700 2012-03-13 12:37:38 <Isilion> also, it is possible to intentionally create btc using known hashes? (imagine that is needed, for my purposes, not a decentraliced creation of BTC)
701 2012-03-13 12:37:47 <Isilion> it's more like printing food tickets
702 2012-03-13 12:37:58 <Isilion> ticket restaurant and so
703 2012-03-13 12:39:12 <Joric> how many btc owned by mtgox atm?
704 2012-03-13 12:39:32 <Graet> why would you go to all the work if all you want is a centralised currency?
705 2012-03-13 12:39:34 <Joric> something like 1-1.5m ?
706 2012-03-13 12:39:57 <Graet> there are plenty of easier ways :)
707 2012-03-13 12:40:06 <Isilion> Graet: have you heard of Tumin and other local currencies based on printing tickets?
708 2012-03-13 12:40:14 <Graet> no
709 2012-03-13 12:40:58 <sipa> Isilion: if you want a centralized currency, there is little point in maintaining a block chain for it
710 2012-03-13 12:41:00 <Isilion> Ok, ill explain: there are actually some places where you can purchase using dollars, euros, pounds, but also you can use a local currency based on tickets
711 2012-03-13 12:41:12 <Isilion> one of them called "Tumin".
712 2012-03-13 12:41:30 <Graet> who "prints the tickets"
713 2012-03-13 12:42:04 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
714 2012-03-13 12:42:23 <Isilion> that's it: they are printed by come kind of agriculture cooperative. They pay their workers with real money, and Tumins
715 2012-03-13 12:42:51 <Isilion> and they encourage the shops to accept the Tumin and repay the food to the cooperative with Tumins
716 2012-03-13 12:43:24 <Isilion> and that cooperative is pursued by the government for "creating coins"
717 2012-03-13 12:43:36 <Graet> i still dont understand why you would want to use a decentralised model like bitcoins and do all the work to centralise it, there must be easier ways :)
718 2012-03-13 12:44:07 RazielZ has joined
719 2012-03-13 12:44:14 <Graet> so its a centralised currency supported by the collective and can inflate as much as they like?
720 2012-03-13 12:44:26 <Isilion> inflate?
721 2012-03-13 12:44:32 <Graet> ie print tickets
722 2012-03-13 12:44:34 <Isilion> yes
723 2012-03-13 12:44:45 <Isilion> the problem is
724 2012-03-13 12:44:48 <Graet> bitcoin is a deflationary model
725 2012-03-13 12:45:24 <Isilion> wait, im talking by phone
726 2012-03-13 12:46:28 <gmaxwell> Isilion: I don't think bitcoin has anything to help you thereâ if the government will bother the collective, they can bother them just as equally for their coin creating task. If they won't bother them for that, then they could just run a simple centeralized webservice to track credits.
727 2012-03-13 12:47:19 <gmaxwell> The bitcoin distributed system has a lot of disadvantagesâ these are offset by the lack of centralization. If you add centeralization back in (for whatever good purposes) then you're not getting a good tradeoff anymore.
728 2012-03-13 12:48:52 <gmaxwell> (Though, I'm surprised to hear goverments complaining about the vouchersâ I guess the complaint is that they're being used for tax evasion because the people using them aren't complying with the barter tax laws)
729 2012-03-13 12:50:32 <Isilion> gmaxwell: efectivelly, they're pursued because Tumin economy actually works, its used instead of coins; and the poorest regions were it is used, no taxes imposed on value have been harvested.
730 2012-03-13 12:51:00 <Isilion> also they pursue who uses it, or will be pursued on a future
731 2012-03-13 12:51:42 usergfg has joined
732 2012-03-13 12:51:52 <Isilion> imagine an officer registering you for smoking a joint on the street, he sees you got Tumins, now you're not a hipster, you're a tax evader...
733 2012-03-13 12:54:24 <Isilion> and the problem is, that Tumins are like monopoly papers, it can be easily falsificated with a ink printer and a scanner. Precisely if the government would like to end with Tumin, they only have to falsificate them and make another collective buy the products at the shop or the cooperative, and put end to the cjain.
734 2012-03-13 12:54:24 Rebroad has joined
735 2012-03-13 12:54:40 <Isilion> chain*
736 2012-03-13 12:55:44 JRWR has joined
737 2012-03-13 12:56:12 <Isilion> Also, Tumins are not a currency (it cannot be exchanged for another international coin); it's purely local. I think that if all local currencies like Tumin, were using BTC instead of papers, they could also collaboret between them
738 2012-03-13 12:56:20 <Isilion> collaborate*
739 2012-03-13 12:56:31 <gmaxwell> Sufficiently small blockchain based cryptocurrency has the same problem... and, moreover, if you have a centeral authority minting the coins you simply take away their computers.
740 2012-03-13 12:57:56 <Graet> and with a ticket a stoned broke hipster can pass over the counter, how does he redeem his "virtual ticket" at the shop?
741 2012-03-13 12:58:07 <Graet> :)
742 2012-03-13 12:58:31 <Isilion> I'm not sure what part of the cooperative prints the Tumins. You know what is a cooperative right? a kind of Corporation were the workers are the actionists, and the profits are distributed equally between them.
743 2012-03-13 12:59:15 <Isilion> Graet: i could easily make a client for transactions in a mobile phone...
744 2012-03-13 12:59:23 <Isilion> transactions & wallet)
745 2012-03-13 12:59:31 <vragnaroda> Isilion: What's your native language?
746 2012-03-13 12:59:37 <Isilion> Spanish
747 2012-03-13 12:59:56 <Graet> yes we have co-operatives in my country too :)
748 2012-03-13 13:02:47 <Isilion> and do you understand what i'm saying? The Tumin cooperative is very large; surely it includes the shops were they accept the tickets, not only the workers of the land.
749 2012-03-13 13:03:02 <Graet> yes
750 2012-03-13 13:03:23 <Isilion> Not sure what part of the cooperative actually print the Tumins; what im sure is that not everyone prints tickets
751 2012-03-13 13:03:25 Rebroad has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
752 2012-03-13 13:03:52 usergfg has quit (Quit: Leaving)
753 2012-03-13 13:04:06 <Graet> you could do it all with a website/virtual tickets/ mobile phones, i still dont understand why you would want to centralise a complex decentralised crypto currency when there are easier ways :)
754 2012-03-13 13:04:22 <Isilion> and they needs are to not be persuaded, to not have falsificated Tumins, and to continue printing Tumings the way they are doing (it works already)
755 2012-03-13 13:04:24 <Graet> for your stated gopals
756 2012-03-13 13:04:39 <Isilion> yeah
757 2012-03-13 13:04:51 Rebroad has joined
758 2012-03-13 13:05:09 <Isilion> i was thinking on adecuate Bitcoind to their needs, perhaps a Ticket Tracker would be enought
759 2012-03-13 13:05:37 <Isilion> but i loved the idea of a bitcoin client and a wallet on the mobile
760 2012-03-13 13:05:59 <Graet> well getting them to adopt and use bitcoin would be another scenario, rather than start anew :)
761 2012-03-13 13:06:44 <Isilion> what i'm really intended to do is a BIBO (bounded I/O) Currency, using cryptocurrency technology
762 2012-03-13 13:06:50 <vragnaroda> Isilion: Quit saying âfalsificated.â It isn't a word. (âFalsifiedâ is but it means something different.) The word you're looking for is âcounterfeit.â
763 2012-03-13 13:07:01 splatster has joined
764 2012-03-13 13:07:06 <Isilion> sure, ACTA ...
765 2012-03-13 13:07:26 <Isilion> thanks for the punctualisation.
766 2012-03-13 13:07:36 <Graet> vragnaroda, stop being a grammar nazi, english isnt his 1st language and we understand what he is saying...
767 2012-03-13 13:07:38 <vragnaroda> Huh?
768 2012-03-13 13:08:05 <vragnaroda> Graet: I have yet to make a comment on his grammar.
769 2012-03-13 13:08:51 <sipa> English isn't my first language either, and I like being corrected on language errors. That's not true for everyone, though.
770 2012-03-13 13:09:10 <sipa> (actually, i'm not so sure about the 'on')
771 2012-03-13 13:09:27 <vragnaroda> â¹on⺠works fine there.
772 2012-03-13 13:09:28 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
773 2012-03-13 13:09:32 <vragnaroda> sipa: What's your L1?
774 2012-03-13 13:09:33 splatster is now known as splatster|away
775 2012-03-13 13:09:50 <sipa> vragnaroda: my first language? Dutch.
776 2012-03-13 13:10:04 <Isilion> it's OK, i was using a wrong word; vragnaroda is right, counterfeit fits aswell; (i thought counterfeit was more on the line of falsified end user products)
777 2012-03-13 13:10:15 <Isilion> rather than coins)
778 2012-03-13 13:11:45 <Joric> what's the most secure/professional/certified bitcoin service for now? mtgox?
779 2012-03-13 13:12:05 archo47 has joined
780 2012-03-13 13:12:17 <denisx> sipa: did you ever attend har,hal,hip,heu or wth?
781 2012-03-13 13:12:37 <sipa> denisx: no idea what those are.
782 2012-03-13 13:12:50 <Joric> 'We are not amateurs. In fact, combined we have over 30 years of experience in the payment processing (credit card arena) industry. -- Tom Williams, mybitcoin.com' :D
783 2012-03-13 13:12:59 <denisx> sipa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack-Tic
784 2012-03-13 13:13:19 gavinandresen has joined
785 2012-03-13 13:13:33 <lianj> Joric: f' that
786 2012-03-13 13:13:52 <vragnaroda> Isilion: Si me equivoco cuando hablo español, quiero que alguién me corrija, también. ;)
787 2012-03-13 13:14:17 <Isilion> Da, tovarich :)
788 2012-03-13 13:15:08 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
789 2012-03-13 13:15:13 <Isilion> alguien, does not hace accent, stressed e, even if it ends with N its not a acute word.
790 2012-03-13 13:15:36 <Isilion> have*
791 2012-03-13 13:16:00 <sipa> denisx: I live in belgium, not in the netherlands.
792 2012-03-13 13:16:43 <lianj> yea, because netherlands went down the toilet :D
793 2012-03-13 13:16:48 <sipa> Anyway, the answer is no :)
794 2012-03-13 13:16:56 <sipa> lianj: ...
795 2012-03-13 13:17:23 denisx_ has joined
796 2012-03-13 13:18:08 <vragnaroda> Isilion: SabÃa eso, pero lo hice.
797 2012-03-13 13:18:12 * vragnaroda se golpea.
798 2012-03-13 13:18:34 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
799 2012-03-13 13:18:35 denisx_ is now known as denisx
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801 2012-03-13 13:22:47 <gavinandresen> sipa: so.... rc3....
802 2012-03-13 13:23:26 <Isilion> vragnaroda: you did *intentionally* = adrede
803 2012-03-13 13:23:47 <vragnaroda> No.
804 2012-03-13 13:24:10 datagutt has joined
805 2012-03-13 13:24:22 <Isilion> then you did *by mistake* = sin querer :P
806 2012-03-13 13:26:15 <Isilion> ok, i got to talk to another dev (BIBO Currency developer). http://bibocurrency.org/English/English.htm (Im trying to merge BTC with BIBO, revise BIBO corollaries, or make Tumins and BTC a BIBO currency)
807 2012-03-13 13:26:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'm fine with just using the fourth version number for rc's/internal build numbers
808 2012-03-13 13:27:53 <gavinandresen> sipa: great. I'll bump CLIENT_VERSION and tag rc3
809 2012-03-13 13:27:58 <sipa> so this will be CLIENT_VERSION 60003
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813 2012-03-13 13:35:47 <gavinandresen> Yep: * [new tag] v0.6.0rc3 -> v0.6.0rc3
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821 2012-03-13 13:55:11 <neofutur> is there a wy to rebroadcast a transaction ?
822 2012-03-13 13:55:57 smtmnyz_ is now known as smtmnyz
823 2012-03-13 13:56:43 <sipa> neofutur: it's done automatically
824 2012-03-13 13:57:06 <neofutur> I sent when there was a problem around block block 170059
825 2012-03-13 13:57:16 <neofutur> then had a power cut
826 2012-03-13 13:57:30 <neofutur> relaunched my client now, its synched with blockchain
827 2012-03-13 13:57:42 <neofutur> but still no hitting the network
828 2012-03-13 13:57:57 <sipa> have some patience
829 2012-03-13 13:58:01 <neofutur> ok thanks
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833 2012-03-13 14:02:10 <sipa> gavinandresen: building
834 2012-03-13 14:02:46 <gavinandresen> sipa: me too. osx build done and uploaded already... working on README
835 2012-03-13 14:05:51 iocor has joined
836 2012-03-13 14:06:46 <t7> gavinandresen: i very much enjoyed your talk at the bitcoin conference
837 2012-03-13 14:06:52 <t7> i look forward to the next update
838 2012-03-13 14:08:16 krish has joined
839 2012-03-13 14:08:39 <krish> hello
840 2012-03-13 14:08:41 krish is now known as Guest34909
841 2012-03-13 14:09:04 <Guest34909> krishn
842 2012-03-13 14:09:06 <Guest34909> as
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847 2012-03-13 14:13:10 <neofutur> its on the network ;)
848 2012-03-13 14:13:21 <neofutur> I feared I just lost 25 btcs
849 2012-03-13 14:13:41 <neofutur> sending at the samt time of the problem + power cut just after . . .
850 2012-03-13 14:15:20 <MagicalTux> neofutur: the bitcoin client will re-broadcast its known txs after a while
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855 2012-03-13 14:17:45 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 936 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/936>
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863 2012-03-13 14:36:26 <Isilion> hi again
864 2012-03-13 14:39:12 <helo> sup Isilion
865 2012-03-13 14:39:19 <Isilion> i talked to the dev i needed, the one of BIBO currency (read above). I would like to use Bitcoin program's code to make a currency that respects this rules and corollaries http://bibocurrency.org/English/standard.htm , there are things in Bitcoin i can use, there are others that i cannot (i.e: 21million coins limit; is a limit even if its in maths sense; BTC are a escarce resource).
866 2012-03-13 14:41:54 <Isilion> what do you think?
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871 2012-03-13 14:43:44 <helo> you have you work cut out for you :)
872 2012-03-13 14:44:02 <helo> is the ledger public with bibo?
873 2012-03-13 14:44:22 <gavinandresen> Isilion: I think if you build it it will be destroyed by people creating multiple identities and defrauding their trading partners.
874 2012-03-13 14:44:24 <helo> "All Transaction details are private (unless required to be divulged by law)." would be difficult with bitcoin, if i'm understanding what it means
875 2012-03-13 14:44:52 <luke-jr> pretty sure impossible, if the parenthesis is required too
876 2012-03-13 14:45:28 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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878 2012-03-13 14:46:40 <Isilion> i talked to that dev with the intention that he explains all that to me; "transaction" means a contractive interchange between @ and workm @ and resources (even @ and @, but makes no sense because transaction must be equitative; you cannot give 5@ for 1@)
879 2012-03-13 14:46:49 <luke-jr> 12.@ may not be sold. <-- makes it worthless IMO
880 2012-03-13 14:46:58 <Isilion> private means that account holders may be unindentifyed
881 2012-03-13 14:47:33 <Isilion> luke-jr: 12. @ may not be sold (for @)
882 2012-03-13 14:47:43 <Isilion> it CAN be purchased with ⬠or $
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884 2012-03-13 14:47:47 <Isilion> i.e
885 2012-03-13 14:48:48 att_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
886 2012-03-13 14:49:13 <Isilion> also, the "it may not be donated" point, refers to that you can donate @, but you cannot reclaim an interest
887 2012-03-13 14:49:38 <luke-jr> Isilion: I don't see any technical way to enforce this
888 2012-03-13 14:49:51 <Isilion> :7
889 2012-03-13 14:50:14 <Isilion> is there any kind of specification of BTC, like with BIBO?
890 2012-03-13 14:50:28 <Isilion> so i can check what is compatible and what not
891 2012-03-13 14:51:42 <Isilion> I mean; BTC has anonymous public record of transactions (thats supossed to agree with *private* definition of BIBO)
892 2012-03-13 14:52:18 <Isilion> also, BTC generates because of a work (CPU work); it would be possible to generate @ based on human work?
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897 2012-03-13 14:53:40 <Isilion> also, decentralized creation of BTC is at the same time a pro and a con; in _my case_ i need an authority (i think) to create BTC
898 2012-03-13 14:53:41 <helo> i don't think anyone has found anything that only humans can do that computers can verify quickly
899 2012-03-13 14:54:05 <Isilion> to create @*
900 2012-03-13 14:54:32 <Isilion> of course
901 2012-03-13 14:54:33 <luke-jr> helo: Poker.
902 2012-03-13 14:54:56 <luke-jr> http://xkcd.com/1002/
903 2012-03-13 14:55:13 <Isilion> imagine you got "workers" "mining" on "a pool". But they are real human workers, doing any task, in any job, not pool
904 2012-03-13 14:55:39 dvide_ has quit ()
905 2012-03-13 14:55:53 <sipa> Isilion: what would the work be?
906 2012-03-13 14:56:07 <Isilion> in this case, a agricole cooperative
907 2012-03-13 14:56:18 <Isilion> an agricole cooperative
908 2012-03-13 14:56:23 <sipa> How would a computer verify that?
909 2012-03-13 14:56:52 <helo> luke-jr: i think a computer could make up convincing poker games that didn't actually involve human players
910 2012-03-13 14:56:55 <Isilion> the workers of the land can present to their bosses the ammount (i.e in kilograms) of their job
911 2012-03-13 14:57:29 <gavinandresen> devrandom: ping
912 2012-03-13 14:57:57 <sipa> gavinandresen: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/0.6.0rc3/
913 2012-03-13 14:58:02 <sipa> and gitian sigs pushed
914 2012-03-13 14:58:34 <luke-jr> any Windows user with a GPU to test http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoin-eligius_miner/20120313b-bitcoin-0.6.0.eligius_miner-win32-setup.exe ? :p
915 2012-03-13 14:58:35 <gavinandresen> sipa: nice, I'm having trouble with my gitian building machine again
916 2012-03-13 14:58:51 <Isilion> I mean; there's nothing a computer can do that a human cannot; it's more like at reverse: computers only make it faster
917 2012-03-13 14:59:22 iocor has joined
918 2012-03-13 14:59:40 <Isilion> also
919 2012-03-13 14:59:44 <helo> Isilion: no human has ever done a double-sha256 hash computation of the bible to my knowledge
920 2012-03-13 14:59:46 <Isilion> the workers of the land can present to their bosses the ammount (i.e in hours) of their job
921 2012-03-13 15:00:18 <helo> it may not be possible ;)
922 2012-03-13 15:00:22 <Isilion> why?
923 2012-03-13 15:00:45 <sipa> Isilion: there are a few properties the 'work' done in bitcoin must have: 1) tweakable difficulty 2) the work must be invalidated if the transactions included change 3) must be trivial to verify that the work was actually done
924 2012-03-13 15:00:48 <luke-jr> helo: it's possible, just not practical
925 2012-03-13 15:00:49 <helo> it may take longer than their lifetime
926 2012-03-13 15:01:07 <sipa> Isilion: agricultural work does not have any of those properties
927 2012-03-13 15:01:27 <Isilion> sipa good, i need that kind of spec about Bitcoin
928 2012-03-13 15:01:27 <sipa> add 'by anyone' to 3)
929 2012-03-13 15:01:44 <Isilion> brb 10 mins, ill be back
930 2012-03-13 15:01:51 andytoshi has joined
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933 2012-03-13 15:11:53 <Isilion> back
934 2012-03-13 15:13:34 <Isilion> sipa: we have to separate concepts in this case; we must separate "mining" (creation of BTC, or @), from "transactions" (involving account holder's personal info, and verification, and such)
935 2012-03-13 15:15:12 <Isilion> in Bitcoin, the mining process is your computing looking for premiable hashes, alone or in a pool. In agriculture, you have workers, or even a single worker, looking for premiable products (those that can be sold in markets)
936 2012-03-13 15:15:16 <gavinandresen> sipa: binaries uploaded to sourceforge (I'm still gitian-building... had to increase the on-target timeout, we'll see if it works)
937 2012-03-13 15:15:50 <Isilion> in Bitcoin an BIBO, transactions, however, are very simmilar.
938 2012-03-13 15:16:06 cande has joined
939 2012-03-13 15:16:15 <gavinandresen> Isilion: BIBO looks better suited to something like Open Transaction or Ripple
940 2012-03-13 15:16:27 <Isilion> i haven't heard of them
941 2012-03-13 15:16:51 <gavinandresen> see ripplepay.com
942 2012-03-13 15:18:00 <Isilion> i started with opentransaction :)
943 2012-03-13 15:18:21 <Isilion> it's cool, is more like i was looking for (a library, client, wallet, server and GUI)
944 2012-03-13 15:19:46 <gavinandresen> Open Transactions seemed like a jigsaw puzzle that hadn't been fully put together last time I looked at it... I wasn't sure that all the pieces were there and fit together securely.
945 2012-03-13 15:19:51 <Isilion> Ripple perhaps may lead to the Bitcoin problem: everyone is a banker (in the sense of creating money)
946 2012-03-13 15:20:11 <luke-jr> Isilion: erm, Bitcoin doesn't have that problem.
947 2012-03-13 15:20:25 <sipa> afaik, OT is everything Bitcoin is not: centralized, anonymous, currency-agnostic
948 2012-03-13 15:20:52 <gavinandresen> You could easily centralize bitcoin mining if you wanted. Just issue N valid private keys, and only allow those to create coins.
949 2012-03-13 15:21:11 <Isilion> have worst problems: everyone who invested in a G34 with 4x6750hd and 48 cores and 512gb of ram is desequilibrating the balance
950 2012-03-13 15:21:57 <luke-jr> Isilion: what's the problem?
951 2012-03-13 15:21:58 <Isilion> sipa please define to me currency-agnostic
952 2012-03-13 15:22:16 <sipa> Isilion: it does not define a currency on itself, it can be used to trade any currency
953 2012-03-13 15:22:33 <Isilion> exactly that
954 2012-03-13 15:22:43 <Isilion> BIBO is a definiton, a rules for any currency
955 2012-03-13 15:22:47 <Isilion> not a currency itselg
956 2012-03-13 15:22:50 <Isilion> itself
957 2012-03-13 15:23:04 <Isilion> i need to make a currency on that specs
958 2012-03-13 15:23:11 <Isilion> (i would like to, meh)
959 2012-03-13 15:23:51 <Isilion> a set of rules*
960 2012-03-13 15:25:15 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
961 2012-03-13 15:25:23 roconnor has joined
962 2012-03-13 15:25:30 <roconnor> hey sipa
963 2012-03-13 15:25:50 <Isilion> so, gavinandresen suggested that perhaps Bitcoind is diametrically the opposite, and shoud i use Open Transaction?
964 2012-03-13 15:25:57 <sipa> roconnor: long time no see here
965 2012-03-13 15:26:18 <luke-jr> roconnor: where ya been? :o
966 2012-03-13 15:27:04 <roconnor> sipa: the more I think about how difficulty adjustment is handled the more worried I get that it is a catastrophe waiting to happen. And I mean catastrophe in both the technical sense an the colloquial sense.
967 2012-03-13 15:27:07 <roconnor> luke-jr: hi
968 2012-03-13 15:27:08 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5)
969 2012-03-13 15:27:23 <sipa> roconnor: elaborate
970 2012-03-13 15:27:25 danbri has joined
971 2012-03-13 15:28:48 <roconnor> sipa: suppose you are mining on top of a block and suddenly a new block appears (ie a fork). Under most circumstances the miner has no reason to prefer mining one block over another so, in general, a miner will probably choose to remain mining over the first block she receives.
972 2012-03-13 15:29:20 <roconnor> sipa: but when mining the first block on a new difficulty things are different, the two blocks in a fork are no longer equivalent.
973 2012-03-13 15:29:21 Diablo-D3 has joined
974 2012-03-13 15:29:50 <roconnor> sipa: In this case mining on top of the block with a later timestamp will have a lower difficulty
975 2012-03-13 15:29:57 Clipse has joined
976 2012-03-13 15:30:07 <roconnor> and so a miner will perfer to mine on the block with the later timestamp.
977 2012-03-13 15:30:18 <gmaxwell> roconnor: indeed. but the maximum difference is rather small so its ignored.
978 2012-03-13 15:30:35 <sipa> the effect is very small, but you are right
979 2012-03-13 15:31:02 <gmaxwell> (it's less than half a percent)
980 2012-03-13 15:31:06 <roconnor> Miner already have a strong preference to remine a block; they would get the reward and get all the transactions of the old block plus any new transactions that come allong.
981 2012-03-13 15:31:15 <roconnor> the only reason they dont is
982 2012-03-13 15:31:32 <roconnor> because no one will mine their fork
983 2012-03-13 15:31:53 <roconnor> because miners are indifferent and might as well keep mining the first block they receive.
984 2012-03-13 15:31:58 <gmaxwell> roconnor: The reward is moot (except at the reward change).
985 2012-03-13 15:32:38 <roconnor> but during a difficulty transaction. if a miner remines the last block of a difficulty change and produce a later timestamp, rational miners will prefer their block and mine upon it
986 2012-03-13 15:33:06 <roconnor> thus they get to "steal" the transaction fees and the reward of the previous version of the last block.
987 2012-03-13 15:33:17 <roconnor> (not really stealing)
988 2012-03-13 15:33:42 <roconnor> and then, pretty soon all the miners are constantly remining the last block of a difficulty change and no forward progress is ever made.
989 2012-03-13 15:33:52 <roconnor> that is the catastrophe
990 2012-03-13 15:33:53 <gmaxwell> roconnor: the cost of extending the time is not a straightforward function thoughâ if you go right up against the limit you'll have terrible propagation because of clock skew.
991 2012-03-13 15:34:07 <gavinandresen> I don't think so-- instead, I think you'd see miners setting the timestamp of that last block as far forward as possible
992 2012-03-13 15:34:17 <gavinandresen> ... so there was no incentive not to build on it
993 2012-03-13 15:34:41 <sipa> "As far forward as possible" changes over time.
994 2012-03-13 15:34:55 <gavinandresen> sure...
995 2012-03-13 15:34:56 <roconnor> gavinandresen: but as the minutes pass without a first block of the new difficulty being produced, new acceptable timestamps on the old block become allowed.
996 2012-03-13 15:35:01 <Isilion> gavinandresen: answer me plz
997 2012-03-13 15:35:03 <roconnor> as sipa said
998 2012-03-13 15:35:34 <sipa> Isilion: I think Bitcoin is not what you are looking for.
999 2012-03-13 15:35:38 <gavinandresen> Isilion: I have no idea what you should use. Anything you start with will have to be modified a lot to work with the BIBO rules.
1000 2012-03-13 15:35:48 <luke-jr> this also comes down to miners having a lot at stake if it falls apart.
1001 2012-03-13 15:35:57 <gmaxwell> roconnor: you're basically aruging that the behavior is irrational. I agree. Whats the issue again?
1002 2012-03-13 15:35:59 <Isilion> that i noticed already gavinandresen;
1003 2012-03-13 15:36:22 <Isilion> i'm going to ask to open transaction community
1004 2012-03-13 15:36:28 <roconnor> the reason we don't see this happening now, is that mining code isn't configured to mine over the least difficult block seen, they are only configured to mine over the first block (at a given total difficulty) seen.
1005 2012-03-13 15:36:38 <Isilion> anyway you helped me, thanks
1006 2012-03-13 15:36:38 <gmaxwell> No one bothers preferring the later timestamp, because the _maximum_ amount of difficulty skew at the instant it happens is a half percent.
1007 2012-03-13 15:37:24 <roconnor> gmaxwell: so basically you are asking people to trust that miners, forever forward, will never try to pick up that half-a-percent in extra advantage?
1008 2012-03-13 15:37:34 <roconnor> gmaxwell: I don't find this reassuring.
1009 2012-03-13 15:38:16 mcorlett is now known as smickles
1010 2012-03-13 15:38:19 <gmaxwell> roconnor: it's not a half-a-percent extra advantage. It's a half percent that would be lost the next cycle (assuming the overlapping difficulty calculation).
1011 2012-03-13 15:38:20 <roconnor> luke-jr: I agree that it all falls appart if people do this; we are in a classic prisoner's dilemma.
1012 2012-03-13 15:38:21 smickles is now known as mcorlett
1013 2012-03-13 15:39:27 <luke-jr> roconnor: creating a fall-apart scenario is not an extra advantage to miners
1014 2012-03-13 15:39:48 <roconnor> gmaxwell: I don't understand what you mean by "lost in the next cycle" If everyone else is mining over block A and I am mining over block B with lower difficulty, I am more likely to find the next block than I would be if I mined A (by some small percentage).
1015 2012-03-13 15:40:08 <roconnor> luke-jr: yes, but if only a few miners defect then it isn't a problem.
1016 2012-03-13 15:40:36 <luke-jr> roconnor: unless >50% defect, it's too risky to try
1017 2012-03-13 15:41:05 <roconnor> luke-jr: there is no "risk" to configure your miner to mine the least difficult block received.
1018 2012-03-13 15:41:11 <roconnor> should one appear.
1019 2012-03-13 15:41:18 <luke-jr> roconnor: except that it creates this problem
1020 2012-03-13 15:41:55 <gmaxwell> roconnor: yes, and then everyone reorgs onto your winning chain.. with an artifically shrunk window, so at the end of that cycle it can't continue to move any further forward because you're already against the time limit.. and if you keep remining over and over again, then you don't get an advantage, you get no btc at all.
1021 2012-03-13 15:42:34 <roconnor> gmaxwell: well, of course you will mine over your own block, not against it; it is everyone else that will remine your block.
1022 2012-03-13 15:43:23 <roconnor> so this will continue until someone mines two blocks in a row, or when the minimum difficulty is reached, whichever comes first.
1023 2012-03-13 15:43:41 <luke-jr> so not long.
1024 2012-03-13 15:44:08 <roconnor> at most 6 weeks.
1025 2012-03-13 15:44:14 <luke-jr> unlikely
1026 2012-03-13 15:44:20 <roconnor> oh
1027 2012-03-13 15:44:20 <luke-jr> Deepbit would find 2 blocks before t hen
1028 2012-03-13 15:44:50 <roconnor> that is a good observation.
1029 2012-03-13 15:45:15 <gmaxwell> roconnor: the minimum is a soft thing. If you go right to the limit many nodes will drop your block because your block is from too far in the future from their perspective.
1030 2012-03-13 15:45:17 <roconnor> that actually does make me feel better.
1031 2012-03-13 15:45:39 <roconnor> gmaxwell: I'm not talking about setting the time in the future
1032 2012-03-13 15:45:50 <roconnor> [11:34] <sipa> "As far forward as possible" changes over time.
1033 2012-03-13 15:46:47 <roconnor> how many minutes do I have to wait before mining a new last block causes the difficulty drops by some amount?
1034 2012-03-13 15:46:47 <luke-jr> nobody has any incentive to enable Deepbit to profit this way, so I don't see a concern
1035 2012-03-13 15:46:53 <luke-jr> even if they did, it'd resolve within a day
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1037 2012-03-13 15:48:34 <sipa> you're essentially describing a situation where the rational behaviour is to collude against everyone
1038 2012-03-13 15:49:02 <sipa> however, if you do so, you're causing an advantage the stronger players
1039 2012-03-13 15:49:35 <sipa> *for
1040 2012-03-13 15:50:11 <luke-jr> and crashing the system, making your earnings worthless
1041 2012-03-13 15:50:48 <gmaxwell> (and in terms of rational behaviorâ existing miners don't even bother to prefer their own blocks when they discovered them slightly later, even though doing so would not be meaningfully harmful to the system)
1042 2012-03-13 15:52:47 <luke-jr> hmm
1043 2012-03-13 15:52:51 * luke-jr ponders implementing that
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1045 2012-03-13 15:56:46 <gavinandresen> preferring your own blocks later sounds like a good way to get lots of double-orphans.
1046 2012-03-13 15:58:04 <gavinandresen> sipa: I figured out why my gitian machine is having problems: for some reason permissions on /dev/kvm are wrong (have no idea what changed them).
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1086 2012-03-13 17:05:08 <roconnor> luke-jr: Deepbit has an incentive to enable Deepbit to profit in this way.
1087 2012-03-13 17:05:29 danbri has joined
1088 2012-03-13 17:05:47 <roconnor> luke-jr: but still, the fact that deepbit would likely find 2 blocks in a row in a not so unreasonable time period puts me at some ease.
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1097 2012-03-13 17:21:22 <andytoshi> i see armory is out now
1098 2012-03-13 17:21:25 <andytoshi> congrats etotheipi
1099 2012-03-13 17:22:57 ThomasV has joined
1100 2012-03-13 17:23:01 <sipa> "out" ?
1101 2012-03-13 17:23:07 ThomasV has quit (Changing host)
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1104 2012-03-13 17:26:25 <forrestv> that issue sort of affected p2pool - p2pool's difficulty changes constantly, so the more recent fork would always win over older ones
1105 2012-03-13 17:26:48 <forrestv> it was fixed by ranking forks based on the work done by the 10th parent of the tip of each fork
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1108 2012-03-13 17:29:59 <[Tycho]> Did anyone saw TX d21633ba23f701181852 ?
1109 2012-03-13 17:30:38 <Raccoon> I can't wait for Google to automatically recognize bitcoin addresses
1110 2012-03-13 17:30:57 <Raccoon> and they can show you how much BTC its worth, and other blockchain stats
1111 2012-03-13 17:32:01 <BlueMatt> keep dreaming
1112 2012-03-13 17:32:52 t7 has joined
1113 2012-03-13 17:34:28 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: link?
1114 2012-03-13 17:34:56 <[Tycho]> I don't have a link, I want to find out what's inside.
1115 2012-03-13 17:38:03 <BlueMatt> well I dont see it anywhere, so...
1116 2012-03-13 17:38:28 <[Tycho]> It was rejected by my nodes and I wonder how did it get there
1117 2012-03-13 17:38:40 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1118 2012-03-13 17:38:59 <BlueMatt> relayed by bad nodes?
1119 2012-03-13 17:39:25 JRWR has joined
1120 2012-03-13 17:39:38 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: my node hasn't seen it and i have logs back to Mar 11 15:09 (CST)
1121 2012-03-13 17:40:12 <[Tycho]> Or may be it was e5f9ca6519710d4f8f53...
1122 2012-03-13 17:40:14 <jrmithdobbs> (pruning is size-based)
1123 2012-03-13 17:40:29 <[Tycho]> 03/09/12 23:11:29.854394 ERROR: CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin or vout empty
1124 2012-03-13 17:40:30 <jrmithdobbs> haven't seen that one either
1125 2012-03-13 17:40:45 <jrmithdobbs> $ sudo grep e5f9ca6519710d4f8f53 /var/log/bitcoin/*
1126 2012-03-13 17:40:45 <jrmithdobbs> $
1127 2012-03-13 17:40:48 <[Tycho]> I didn't expected something to trip this check.
1128 2012-03-13 17:40:57 <BlueMatt> someone relayed you a bad tx
1129 2012-03-13 17:41:04 <BlueMatt> they were probably just messing around
1130 2012-03-13 17:41:11 <[Tycho]> Yes, but it's unusual one.
1131 2012-03-13 17:41:12 <jrmithdobbs> or someone's pinpointed some of your nodes
1132 2012-03-13 17:41:19 <jrmithdobbs> and is trying to some tomfoolery
1133 2012-03-13 17:41:25 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1134 2012-03-13 17:41:30 <[Tycho]> May be luke-jr was messing around :)
1135 2012-03-13 17:41:36 <BlueMatt> tomfoolery to see if [Tycho] removed sanity checks in his code
1136 2012-03-13 17:41:36 <jrmithdobbs> possible, heh
1137 2012-03-13 17:41:41 <Graet> mystery miner
1138 2012-03-13 17:41:43 <Graet> <.<
1139 2012-03-13 17:41:45 <Graet> >.>
1140 2012-03-13 17:41:46 <BlueMatt> heh
1141 2012-03-13 17:42:02 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ya, it's pretty well publicized that he doesn't use a stock build
1142 2012-03-13 17:42:18 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: wouldn't be surprised if someone's looking for bad changes in it
1143 2012-03-13 17:42:18 <BlueMatt> nor does pretty much any pool afaik
1144 2012-03-13 17:42:39 <BlueMatt> they arent very smart then, no dumbass would remove those checks
1145 2012-03-13 17:42:45 <jrmithdobbs> (although, luke and tycho seem to be the only ones that pay attention/look at these things)
1146 2012-03-13 17:42:46 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1147 2012-03-13 17:42:48 <[Tycho]> Recently I was playing again with strange TXes and he may be noticed that.
1148 2012-03-13 17:43:04 <[Tycho]> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/f442ec202bcf3925c03d7391570ffd0af1822fc42b011771b595628849705d23 :)
1149 2012-03-13 17:43:23 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1150 2012-03-13 17:44:45 <BlueMatt> looks like a free bitcent to me
1151 2012-03-13 17:45:31 <t7> free coin :3
1152 2012-03-13 17:45:35 <BlueMatt> oh, it was redemed...nvm
1153 2012-03-13 17:45:40 <[Tycho]> Yes. I implemented a new type of bitcoin addresses: with inline output script inside.
1154 2012-03-13 17:45:53 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: there is one more if you can redeem that :)
1155 2012-03-13 17:46:09 <BlueMatt> thats not a new type, thats a "password" tx, where the password is in the question
1156 2012-03-13 17:46:26 <BlueMatt> where?
1157 2012-03-13 17:46:27 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: not the type of TX, a type of address with ANY script inside.
1158 2012-03-13 17:47:23 <BlueMatt> TD has been fighting for that kind of thing for a while...
1159 2012-03-13 17:48:08 <TD> i'd like to see either that, or a move to payment descriptor files.
1160 2012-03-13 17:48:11 <TD> but it's longer term
1161 2012-03-13 17:48:54 <[Tycho]> This TX was sent to 3ci58YB4A1a
1162 2012-03-13 17:48:56 <BlueMatt> meh, whether or not it was worth it in the end, p2sh provides a lot of the advantages of such a system...
1163 2012-03-13 17:49:27 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: I did it mostly for making playing with strange TXes more comfortable.
1164 2012-03-13 17:51:18 * BlueMatt -> class
1165 2012-03-13 17:51:31 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1166 2012-03-13 17:56:10 <andytoshi> sipa: regarding my "armory is out" comment,
1167 2012-03-13 17:56:12 <andytoshi> http://bitcoinmedia.com/the-peoples-vault-armory-client/
1168 2012-03-13 17:56:59 barmstrong has joined
1169 2012-03-13 17:59:06 <[Tycho]> I was really surprised that bitcoind didn't used fee amount in priority calculations :)
1170 2012-03-13 18:01:13 <Joric> i tried scanning blockchain without reading it entirely into memory it takes just 2.5 minutes (cpp, ifstream, std::map for indexes)
1171 2012-03-13 18:01:20 <copumpkin> [Tycho]: what's the biggest fee you've seen so far?
1172 2012-03-13 18:01:39 <copumpkin> or is that hard to answer?
1173 2012-03-13 18:01:47 <[Tycho]> Not sure about that, may be around 20 BTC
1174 2012-03-13 18:01:53 <copumpkin> mmm, generous people :)
1175 2012-03-13 18:02:07 <[Tycho]> You can try to check blockchaininfo for that.
1176 2012-03-13 18:02:27 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: reworking fees is on my medium-term TODO list...
1177 2012-03-13 18:02:35 <[Tycho]> Also their online wallet was sending enormous fees due to bugs.
1178 2012-03-13 18:03:22 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: actually it makes sense to check fees only if the TX doesn't fits into the free area.
1179 2012-03-13 18:03:56 <[Tycho]> But sometimes people just want to pay for even better priority :)
1180 2012-03-13 18:04:12 <gavinandresen> As a miner, what knobs do you want to control? Size of free area? How priority is calculated? cut-off for "free" ?
1181 2012-03-13 18:04:40 <[Tycho]> I already have a realtime option for controlling free area. It's very comfortable.
1182 2012-03-13 18:04:48 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1183 2012-03-13 18:05:29 <[Tycho]> Also it would be nice to control maximum size of free TX for more flexible fee policy.
1184 2012-03-13 18:05:31 <gavinandresen> I know YOU can do whatever you like... I'm asking because exposing that functionality to miners who aren't comfortable hacking the code might be good
1185 2012-03-13 18:05:58 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: yes, I mean that this feature would be useful in mainline.
1186 2012-03-13 18:06:05 <Graet> agreed
1187 2012-03-13 18:06:53 toffoo has joined
1188 2012-03-13 18:07:03 <[Tycho]> As an experiment I tried to add some fee checking in my priority calculation. Let's see what will happen :)
1189 2012-03-13 18:07:15 <gavinandresen> Ok, so: size of free area, max size of free transaction, and min btc value to be considered 'free'.
1190 2012-03-13 18:07:18 sacarlson has joined
1191 2012-03-13 18:07:28 <[Tycho]> But I'm not counting 0.0005 as fee because it's almost nothing.
1192 2012-03-13 18:08:28 mcorlett is now known as mcorlett-bot
1193 2012-03-13 18:08:32 mcorlett-bot is now known as mcorlett
1194 2012-03-13 18:08:42 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: yes. May be add some coefficient for how much would fees affect priority.
1195 2012-03-13 18:09:53 imsaguy2 is now known as imsadude
1196 2012-03-13 18:09:59 imsadude is now known as imsaguy2
1197 2012-03-13 18:10:11 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: yes, I was thinking about letting miners control the priority calculation. Wondering how much control to give, though-- for example, both number of sigops and size in bytes could go into the priority....
1198 2012-03-13 18:10:31 <gavinandresen> (along with fees-above-the-'free'-threshold)
1199 2012-03-13 18:11:16 <gavinandresen> Miners could set coefficients to zero if, for example, they didn't care how many sigops were in a transaction.
1200 2012-03-13 18:12:09 <gavinandresen> The trouble is, the more "knobs" given to miners the harder it will be for clients to figure out what is a "reasonable" fee
1201 2012-03-13 18:13:12 <[Tycho]> Yes.
1202 2012-03-13 18:13:33 <[Tycho]> May be some stats about TXes would be useful.
1203 2012-03-13 18:14:10 <[Tycho]> But that would be 3rd party service :(
1204 2012-03-13 18:14:11 <gavinandresen> On the client side I've been assuming the client will keep stats on how long it takes memory pool transactions to get into a block
1205 2012-03-13 18:14:13 <Graet> good point gavinandresen
1206 2012-03-13 18:14:40 <gavinandresen> ... because if you see a few thousand transactions you should be able to get a good idea of what a "reasonable" fee is for a new transaction.
1207 2012-03-13 18:14:54 <[Tycho]> By the way, there was a good idea of resending new versions of TXes with more fees.
1208 2012-03-13 18:15:56 <roconnor> sipa: I wonder what the transaction fee threshold is for deepbit to want to try to remine the last block and build upon it in hopes to "steal" the transaction fees and bonus from the last block.
1209 2012-03-13 18:16:14 <copumpkin> oh yay, roconnor is back
1210 2012-03-13 18:16:14 <roconnor> sipa: presumably if there are sufficent fees in the last block, it will be worthwhile to try.
1211 2012-03-13 18:16:20 * copumpkin hugs roconnor
1212 2012-03-13 18:16:25 * roconnor hugs copumpkin
1213 2012-03-13 18:16:34 <sipa> [Tycho]: and enable transaction replacement?
1214 2012-03-13 18:17:06 <sipa> I believe it could not be used for that, actually, though I don't remember the details.
1215 2012-03-13 18:17:14 <gavinandresen> sipa: you don't need transaction replacement to generate and broadcast a new transaction with higher fees, right?
1216 2012-03-13 18:17:40 <sipa> gavinandresen: not really, but it would be hard to get the transaction to be accepted
1217 2012-03-13 18:17:43 <gavinandresen> sipa: ... just have to teach miners to keep a double-spend with higher fees in their memory pool. And teach clients to double-spend
1218 2012-03-13 18:18:06 <gavinandresen> (and teach clients to keep track of multiple txids that are all "really the same")
1219 2012-03-13 18:18:19 <sipa> ... which is transaction replacement, no?
1220 2012-03-13 18:18:41 <gavinandresen> mmmm... maybe. I admit I never thought hard about the tx replacemnet code
1221 2012-03-13 18:18:41 <sipa> maybe not exactly the current (disabled) mechanism
1222 2012-03-13 18:19:03 <sipa> but you need some way of accepting a new version of a transaction into the memory pool
1223 2012-03-13 18:19:17 <sipa> roconnor: hmm, probably
1224 2012-03-13 18:20:46 sytse has joined
1225 2012-03-13 18:21:01 <roconnor> sipa: I conjecture as deepbit approaches 50% of the mining power, the threshold to remine the last block goes towards always.
1226 2012-03-13 18:23:16 danbri has joined
1227 2012-03-13 18:24:02 <sipa> roconnor: i prefere calling it "the attacker" instead of "deepbit" :)
1228 2012-03-13 18:24:12 <roconnor> er right
1229 2012-03-13 18:24:24 <roconnor> sorry [Tycho]
1230 2012-03-13 18:25:44 <copumpkin> lol
1231 2012-03-13 18:25:49 * roconnor bets 1 Euro that deepbit mines the last block with a 50 BTC reward.
1232 2012-03-13 18:26:06 <copumpkin> you need to get some bitcoins so you can start betting bitcoins
1233 2012-03-13 18:26:17 * roconnor bets 1 Testnet bitcoin that deepbit mines the last block with a 50 BTC reward.
1234 2012-03-13 18:27:10 * sipa quickly remines the entire testnet chain
1235 2012-03-13 18:27:28 <TD> you don't atually
1236 2012-03-13 18:27:41 <TD> you can do "fee increases" by making fee calculation in the memory pool recursive
1237 2012-03-13 18:27:52 <TD> which is useful for other models of fee payments anyway, i've been advocating that for a while
1238 2012-03-13 18:27:57 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1239 2012-03-13 18:28:09 <TD> to increase the fee you'd just broadcast another tx that spends the change on the first
1240 2012-03-13 18:28:27 <TD> if there IS no change, well, that's a problem :) but you can make your software always include a bit of change even if it's not strictly necessary, purely for the purposes of using as fee later
1241 2012-03-13 18:28:38 <TD> it won't work today because bitcoin does not consider the fees of dependencies
1242 2012-03-13 18:29:13 <sipa> that doesn't sound too hard to implement
1243 2012-03-13 18:29:40 <TD> it has the advantage of allowing us to move to a risk-analysis model in later years
1244 2012-03-13 18:29:52 <TD> where people who have pre-existing trust relationships simply swap free transactions outside the network
1245 2012-03-13 18:30:19 <TD> when eventually you present a pile of free transactions to somebody whose risk analysis threshold is exceeded, they tack on one of their own at the end that provides some fee and broadcasts all together
1246 2012-03-13 18:30:38 <TD> IIRC miners will not include multiple transactions that depend on each other into a block currently. so that'd be good to fix too :)
1247 2012-03-13 18:31:10 forsetifox has joined
1248 2012-03-13 18:31:48 <Graet> aww i would take a real btc bet that deepbit dont roconnor but those euro things who knows what they will be worth in december ;)
1249 2012-03-13 18:32:17 <Graet> and once i fix the wallet i'll have way too many testnet coins ;0
1250 2012-03-13 18:32:43 * TD -> home
1251 2012-03-13 18:32:47 <gavinandresen> sipa TD roconnor : any of you read Watson Ladd's paper yet?
1252 2012-03-13 18:32:54 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1253 2012-03-13 18:32:54 <roconnor> Graet: ;)
1254 2012-03-13 18:33:02 <sipa> I haven't (yet).
1255 2012-03-13 18:33:07 <Graet> :)
1256 2012-03-13 18:33:09 <roconnor> gavinandresen: what paper is that?
1257 2012-03-13 18:33:23 <gavinandresen> roconnor: http://wbl.github.com/bitcoinanon.pdf
1258 2012-03-13 18:33:32 h4ckm3th32nd has joined
1259 2012-03-13 18:33:33 bitvampire has joined
1260 2012-03-13 18:33:51 <[Tycho]> sipa: why replacement can't be used for that ? (I don't remember how it works exactly)
1261 2012-03-13 18:34:06 <roconnor> gavinandresen: I haven't seen this before.
1262 2012-03-13 18:34:59 <[Tycho]> roconnor: is that last 50 BTC block somehow special ? :)
1263 2012-03-13 18:35:08 <gavinandresen> roconnor: it was on the bitcoin-development mailing list. I had a brief back-and-forth about it with him via email, he's going to rework it to make some things more clear
1264 2012-03-13 18:35:59 <sipa> [Tycho]: yes, unicorns will dance around its merkle trees
1265 2012-03-13 18:38:55 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1266 2012-03-13 18:40:00 <roconnor> [Tycho]: it is special in that it is more valuable than the subsequent block.
1267 2012-03-13 18:40:22 <Graet> [Tycho], it is in the difficulty change/timestamp/build your own block scenario he was talking about before ;0
1268 2012-03-13 18:40:26 <roconnor> potentialy a lot more valuable
1269 2012-03-13 18:40:50 <[Tycho]> Graet: where ?
1270 2012-03-13 18:41:17 <Graet> scroll up :P
1271 2012-03-13 18:41:49 <Graet> a bit before you started joining in :)
1272 2012-03-13 18:42:05 <Graet> oic
1273 2012-03-13 18:42:09 <Graet> before you joined
1274 2012-03-13 18:42:10 <Graet> sorry
1275 2012-03-13 18:42:12 sacarlson has joined
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1280 2012-03-13 18:44:34 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Download IceChat at www.icechat.net)
1281 2012-03-13 18:49:34 <roconnor> gavinandresen: given it a very quick glance, it all seems plausible. I've been trying to figure how to anonymize transactions using homomorphic encryption for a little while.
1282 2012-03-13 18:50:29 occulta has joined
1283 2012-03-13 18:50:43 <gmaxwell> I don't see it at allâ and I asked him to explain it and he basically said that he wouldn't right now.
1284 2012-03-13 18:52:39 <t7> wtf i just got money from somewhere :)
1285 2012-03-13 18:52:48 <t7> only a few cents but yey
1286 2012-03-13 18:53:01 <gavinandresen> oh, i was going to say if it was $100 that was me and you should send it back
1287 2012-03-13 18:53:29 <sipa> t7: ever mined with p2pool or eligius?
1288 2012-03-13 18:53:34 <t7> nope
1289 2012-03-13 18:53:38 <t7> only deepbit ages ago
1290 2012-03-13 18:53:46 <t7> and some other pool i forget
1291 2012-03-13 18:53:57 <sipa> [Tycho]: have you secretly been payint people! you naughty one!
1292 2012-03-13 18:54:01 <sipa> *payinh
1293 2012-03-13 18:54:06 <sipa> **paying
1294 2012-03-13 18:54:17 <[Tycho]> *playing
1295 2012-03-13 18:54:43 * sipa expects a "< luke-jr> *praying" now
1296 2012-03-13 18:54:57 <t7> on second thought it might have been that work for bitcoin site
1297 2012-03-13 18:55:03 <t7> i thought i didnt pass the training :/
1298 2012-03-13 18:56:56 userbfj has joined
1299 2012-03-13 18:57:31 <t7> are we still anti linode in here?
1300 2012-03-13 18:57:36 <t7> because they are so cheap
1301 2012-03-13 18:57:50 <t7> and i have a domain name pointing to nothing
1302 2012-03-13 18:58:21 <sipa> as long as you don't expect a company to protect your $400000 file while paying $5 a month, no worries
1303 2012-03-13 18:58:58 <t7> i can allways put the bitcoind somewhere else if i make loadsa money
1304 2012-03-13 18:59:39 <t7> anyone want a referral?
1305 2012-03-13 18:59:44 <gavinandresen> The Faucet is back up and running on a (fresh) Linode.... but that's because it's not worth paying for ultra-high security for 20 bitcoins that I'm going to give away anyway
1306 2012-03-13 19:00:24 <t7> gavinandresen: you just have the bitcoind on there and the site on google apps?
1307 2012-03-13 19:00:30 <gavinandresen> t7 yes
1308 2012-03-13 19:01:22 <captain^k> gavinandresen: neat :)
1309 2012-03-13 19:01:38 <captain^k> gavinandresen: which package do you use from them out of interest?
1310 2012-03-13 19:01:56 <gavinandresen> captain^k: uhhh... 1024 I think
1311 2012-03-13 19:02:08 <captain^k> they're procey
1312 2012-03-13 19:02:12 <captain^k> *pricey
1313 2012-03-13 19:03:13 Dyaheon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1314 2012-03-13 19:03:28 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1315 2012-03-13 19:03:52 <t7> who wants linode referral
1316 2012-03-13 19:03:54 <t7> hurry
1317 2012-03-13 19:08:20 h4ckm3th32nd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1318 2012-03-13 19:08:50 <Joric> i didn't plan to host stock exchange
1319 2012-03-13 19:09:15 <sipa> but you do?
1320 2012-03-13 19:09:45 <Joric> depends of what does that referral do
1321 2012-03-13 19:12:23 <captain^k> *blinks* cheapest linode plan is $19.95 on their homepage?
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1337 2012-03-13 19:29:43 <andytoshi> what's the cleanest way to do a partial stash in git?
1338 2012-03-13 19:30:52 Ahimoth has joined
1339 2012-03-13 19:32:07 mcorlett is now known as vraagnaroda
1340 2012-03-13 19:32:35 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
1341 2012-03-13 19:32:38 vraagnaroda is now known as Seeinfeld
1342 2012-03-13 19:32:57 Seeinfeld is now known as mcorlett
1343 2012-03-13 19:36:49 <luke-jr> andytoshi: I hand-revert part in Kate, git diff, Kate undo, then patch -R
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1353 2012-03-13 19:53:43 <andytoshi> luke-jr: thanks, i created a temporary branch and committed everything i -didn't- want to keep
1354 2012-03-13 19:53:55 <luke-jr> lol
1355 2012-03-13 19:53:55 <andytoshi> then i'll cherry-pick that back and reset HEAD to get my working state back
1356 2012-03-13 19:54:00 <andytoshi> ;)
1357 2012-03-13 19:54:23 sacarlson has joined
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1359 2012-03-13 19:56:51 BiTn00b has joined
1360 2012-03-13 19:56:51 gavinandresen has joined
1361 2012-03-13 19:56:57 <helo> i usually "add -p, commit" what i want to keep, stash, and then checkout HEAD^
1362 2012-03-13 20:00:51 <mod6> captain^k: did you get your BTC back then out of that corrupt wallet?
1363 2012-03-13 20:01:01 <mod6> (from yesterday? just curious)
1364 2012-03-13 20:01:22 h4ckm3th32nd has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1365 2012-03-13 20:03:04 <ThomasV> what's up with the miners? the last blocks contain very small number of transactions
1366 2012-03-13 20:04:40 <t7> how can a tx be from unknown
1367 2012-03-13 20:05:33 <sipa> ?
1368 2012-03-13 20:09:25 <ThomasV> there's about 600 unconfirmed transactions
1369 2012-03-13 20:09:45 <ThomasV> new blocks sometimes contain 1 tx
1370 2012-03-13 20:09:47 <ThomasV> why?
1371 2012-03-13 20:09:56 <ThomasV> (1tx=generation)
1372 2012-03-13 20:10:10 Clipse has joined
1373 2012-03-13 20:10:11 <gmaxwell> Because some miners don't mine transactions.
1374 2012-03-13 20:10:18 <gmaxwell> And 600? sounds like a DOS attack.
1375 2012-03-13 20:10:34 <gmaxwell> (if there really is a standing balance of 600)
1376 2012-03-13 20:10:36 <gavinandresen> deepbit doesn't consider 0.005 BTC enough of a fee
1377 2012-03-13 20:10:53 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: o rly? last I heard, Deepbit accepted all txns without fee
1378 2012-03-13 20:11:02 <luke-jr> "standard" ones anyhow
1379 2012-03-13 20:11:03 <gavinandresen> I see lots of 0.0005 BTC transactions at http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/txlist/
1380 2012-03-13 20:11:27 <gmaxwell> nah, deepbit has an enlarged free transaction area â so blocks can contain 200kb of spam from deepbit, but beyond that requires fees of 0.01 btc.
1381 2012-03-13 20:11:35 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: earlier today [Tycho] said he didnt' consider 0.0005 enough of a fee, so I assume he's treating those as 'free'
1382 2012-03-13 20:11:35 <ThomasV> but that's not just deepbit
1383 2012-03-13 20:11:46 <[Tycho]> Yes, I do.
1384 2012-03-13 20:12:16 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: a huge stack of ones at the bottom of the bitcoincharts list have unconfirmed inputs.
1385 2012-03-13 20:12:40 <gmaxwell> oh in fact, a huge portion of those outstanding txn are [Tycho]'s spam.
1386 2012-03-13 20:12:44 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1387 2012-03-13 20:12:46 <luke-jr> lol
1388 2012-03-13 20:12:51 <[Tycho]> 600 doesn't looks as dos
1389 2012-03-13 20:13:01 <[Tycho]> 100-400 is normal
1390 2012-03-13 20:13:48 archo47 has quit ()
1391 2012-03-13 20:14:18 <ThomasV> hmm ok
1392 2012-03-13 20:14:29 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: are all of your bitcoind's supporting BIP16 now?
1393 2012-03-13 20:14:42 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: 50%
1394 2012-03-13 20:14:42 denisx has joined
1395 2012-03-13 20:15:05 <gmaxwell> http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/txlist/#a7cfabf51a0813535955183e034491cd72902bbc2fb0411ae32bae99602d79c9 < look at its unconfirmed inputs.
1396 2012-03-13 20:15:06 <[Tycho]> May be I'll finish deploying tonight.
1397 2012-03-13 20:15:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: +g the channel plz :p
1398 2012-03-13 20:15:29 <[Tycho]> If someone is bothered by the long queue I can mine it.
1399 2012-03-13 20:15:37 <Graet> lol
1400 2012-03-13 20:15:38 <ThomasV> someone should create a service that returns the expected waiting time given (tx,fee)
1401 2012-03-13 20:15:39 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: do what now?
1402 2012-03-13 20:15:43 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: that'd be much appreciated, we're just over 50% overall BIP16 support r ight now by the looks
1403 2012-03-13 20:15:50 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: /mode #bitcoin-dev +g
1404 2012-03-13 20:15:55 <BlueMatt> yes, but why?
1405 2012-03-13 20:16:01 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: so I can /invite genjix
1406 2012-03-13 20:16:03 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: looks like 38% in last 1000 blocks
1407 2012-03-13 20:16:15 <BlueMatt> why cant you just tell him to join?
1408 2012-03-13 20:16:22 <luke-jr> that's what /invite does
1409 2012-03-13 20:16:27 <gavinandresen> 52% in the last week (1440 blocks)
1410 2012-03-13 20:16:36 <[Tycho]> Cool
1411 2012-03-13 20:16:40 <BlueMatt> yes, but you could just /mst genjix join #bitcoin-dev
1412 2012-03-13 20:16:56 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: why pie chart is incorrect then ?
1413 2012-03-13 20:16:58 <luke-jr> but that's not standards compliant inviting!
1414 2012-03-13 20:16:59 <sipa> what is +g?
1415 2012-03-13 20:17:05 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: cuz PiUK is lame <.<
1416 2012-03-13 20:17:10 <luke-jr> sipa: allows anyone to /invite
1417 2012-03-13 20:17:25 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: pie chart is correct, there is just lots of variance
1418 2012-03-13 20:17:45 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: IIRC there's some inaccuracies
1419 2012-03-13 20:18:06 <gavinandresen> My tool gets 375 in the last 1000 blocks
1420 2012-03-13 20:18:34 <gavinandresen> ... but remember a couple of big pools wasted blocks on the invalid rc1 chain
1421 2012-03-13 20:18:43 <luke-jr> they did? :o
1422 2012-03-13 20:18:59 <luke-jr> I thought it was just a fraction of BTCG
1423 2012-03-13 20:19:27 <sipa> probably a few hundred GH/s
1424 2012-03-13 20:19:32 <gavinandresen> I think there was another, also, but I might be wrong. Oh, and my 52% in 1440 blocks is wrong
1425 2012-03-13 20:19:40 <[Tycho]> Only 4 blocks were lost, I think.
1426 2012-03-13 20:20:11 splatster has quit (Quit: splatster)
1427 2012-03-13 20:21:59 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: so you were lying about your script detecting all the free TXes ? :)
1428 2012-03-13 20:23:37 mrsy has quit (Quit: leaving)
1429 2012-03-13 20:25:54 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: ?
1430 2012-03-13 20:25:59 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1431 2012-03-13 20:26:08 <luke-jr> did it miss one?
1432 2012-03-13 20:26:38 <[Tycho]> At least two.
1433 2012-03-13 20:26:53 <luke-jr> maybe they didn't make it to me.
1434 2012-03-13 20:27:10 <[Tycho]> Cool.
1435 2012-03-13 20:28:58 <t7> the blockchain zip on sf.net is a godsend
1436 2012-03-13 20:30:30 <BlueMatt> http://eu1.bitcoincharts.com/blockchain/ is more up to date and pgp signed by tcatm
1437 2012-03-13 20:30:33 <copumpkin> as long as you trust those sleazy sf guys
1438 2012-03-13 20:30:36 <BlueMatt> (nightly)
1439 2012-03-13 20:30:39 <gmaxwell> it'll be fantastic when it turns out that the blockchain on sf.net has some slight corruption and 30% the network forks the moment the corrupted transaction is spent.
1440 2012-03-13 20:30:40 agricocb has joined
1441 2012-03-13 20:30:55 <BlueMatt> heh, yep
1442 2012-03-13 20:31:07 <BlueMatt> has anyone fed it through -checkblocks repeatedly?
1443 2012-03-13 20:31:19 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: is it possible to get a BIP 16 backport with less unrelated changes?
1444 2012-03-13 20:33:41 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: maybe. If you wanted to just verify BIP16 transactions but never accept them into your memory pool there's probably code that could be eliminated
1445 2012-03-13 20:34:13 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: ... and if you trusted the other miners not to give you invalid previous-blocks then you could skip the signature-counting changes
1446 2012-03-13 20:34:47 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I'd just as well mine them⦠I just figured there must be extra unrelated stuff in there, since it's like 10 times more complex than BIP 17'sâ¦
1447 2012-03-13 20:34:54 <copumpkin> would there be drawbacks to creating an (even miniscule) incentive to include transactions in a block, even if they have no fees attached? like a 0.0001 btc / txn fixed fee built into the protocol?
1448 2012-03-13 20:35:03 <copumpkin> I guess that would break
1449 2012-03-13 20:35:54 <gavinandresen> copumpkin: any incentive to put lots of transactions in blocks would mean miners created lots of sends-to-self to put in their blocks....
1450 2012-03-13 20:36:05 <copumpkin> oh, duh
1451 2012-03-13 20:36:22 <luke-jr> copumpkin: gmaxwell's idea works
1452 2012-03-13 20:37:07 <copumpkin> where's that?
1453 2012-03-13 20:39:18 <gavinandresen> BIP16 support over the last 7 days: https://gist.github.com/2031410
1454 2012-03-13 20:39:34 mrsy has joined
1455 2012-03-13 20:39:43 * [Tycho] mined a block with 325 TXes in it :)
1456 2012-03-13 20:39:49 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: if you can deploy tonight that would be very helpful, should get us over the 55% threshold on Thursday.
1457 2012-03-13 20:40:06 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: can you start mining BIP16 blocks?
1458 2012-03-13 20:40:17 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I need to remake next-test first
1459 2012-03-13 20:41:09 <[Tycho]> Looks like the percentage doubled
1460 2012-03-13 20:41:17 <[Tycho]> But variance is too big yet
1461 2012-03-13 20:43:18 <gavinandresen> I'm running numbers on the last 21 days... looks like the blockchain split snafu really hurt support
1462 2012-03-13 20:43:19 <[Tycho]> ARSbitcoin doesn't P2SHs yet.
1463 2012-03-13 20:43:41 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: how ?
1464 2012-03-13 20:44:09 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: Ars has been dead for months
1465 2012-03-13 20:44:15 <gmaxwell> Because people switched to old code rather than moving their BIP16 dates.
1466 2012-03-13 20:44:20 <gavinandresen> https://gist.github.com/2031410 updated with 21 days of data
1467 2012-03-13 20:44:42 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: because there was no useful error message indicating the actual problem :(
1468 2012-03-13 20:44:47 <[Tycho]> Bottom first ?
1469 2012-03-13 20:45:11 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1470 2012-03-13 20:45:34 <gmaxwell> There is also the apparent hashrate increase, from thoes very boring blocks.
1471 2012-03-13 20:45:35 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: yes, 54 matches was 21 days ago
1472 2012-03-13 20:46:15 molecular has joined
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1477 2012-03-13 21:03:28 <t7> anyone know of a commandline bitcoin rpc command client thing?
1478 2012-03-13 21:03:51 gp5st has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1479 2012-03-13 21:04:01 <BlueMatt> bitcoind?
1480 2012-03-13 21:04:30 <t7> yeah to interact with bitcoind
1481 2012-03-13 21:04:44 <mcorlett> t7: You can do that using bitcoind.
1482 2012-03-13 21:04:58 <mcorlett> bitcoind getinfo, for example
1483 2012-03-13 21:04:59 <sipa> type: ./bitcoind help
1484 2012-03-13 21:06:44 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: may be they are dead, but still generating: https://blockchain.info/block-index/193382/00000000000002aa36f155220e05a381c8ea5f3bd688ebed45873cba2c8cfd2f
1485 2012-03-13 21:07:00 <t7> can i check how far behind the block chain i am ? like in the qt-client
1486 2012-03-13 21:07:20 <sipa> t7: hover over the sync icon
1487 2012-03-13 21:07:33 topace has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1488 2012-03-13 21:07:44 <t7> errrr i only have a shell
1489 2012-03-13 21:07:46 <t7> bitcoind
1490 2012-03-13 21:07:47 <BlueMatt> getinfo
1491 2012-03-13 21:07:51 <BlueMatt> will show you a block count
1492 2012-03-13 21:07:54 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,blocks
1493 2012-03-13 21:07:55 <gribble> 171032
1494 2012-03-13 21:08:10 <t7> oh im upto date
1495 2012-03-13 21:08:22 DBordello has joined
1496 2012-03-13 21:08:47 <DBordello> I am using 0.60rc2. I recently started it with my clock wrong. However, now when I start it I get a warning about the computers date and time. IT appears to be hin a funk. Ideas?
1497 2012-03-13 21:09:18 <DBordello> It doesn't appear to want to process any new blocks
1498 2012-03-13 21:09:30 <BlueMatt> is your clock right now?
1499 2012-03-13 21:09:39 <BlueMatt> delete addr.dat iirc
1500 2012-03-13 21:10:00 <DBordello> yes
1501 2012-03-13 21:10:51 <DBordello> Let me give that a shot
1502 2012-03-13 21:11:20 <DBordello> Nope, it is still unhappy
1503 2012-03-13 21:12:22 <BlueMatt> hmm, what are you getting in debug.log?
1504 2012-03-13 21:12:39 <BlueMatt> and it still gives you a date and time warning?
1505 2012-03-13 21:12:53 <t7> bitcoind doesnt use much of my 512 ram :)
1506 2012-03-13 21:13:25 <DBordello> actually, i might be foolish, my clock was off a day
1507 2012-03-13 21:13:33 <BlueMatt> oh
1508 2012-03-13 21:13:36 <t7> oh im upto datei might be able to run a webserver and postgre too
1509 2012-03-13 21:13:37 <BlueMatt> well that would do it
1510 2012-03-13 21:13:48 <DBordello> I will let it chew on that for a while too
1511 2012-03-13 21:13:54 <DBordello> BlueMatt, thanks :)
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1532 2012-03-13 21:49:11 phantomcircuit is now known as intersango
1533 2012-03-13 21:49:31 intersango is now known as phantomcircuit
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1537 2012-03-13 21:57:48 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: doesnt eligius have a pending tx list somewhere?
1538 2012-03-13 21:59:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no
1539 2012-03-13 21:59:20 <luke-jr> not public anyhow
1540 2012-03-13 21:59:24 <luke-jr> I can check debug.log manually
1541 2012-03-13 21:59:28 <BlueMatt> nvm
1542 2012-03-13 21:59:39 <BlueMatt> for some reason I thought there was...
1543 2012-03-13 22:00:01 <[Tycho]> You were trying to redeem it ? :)
1544 2012-03-13 22:00:13 <BlueMatt> yea, I did I just wondered if luke had it
1545 2012-03-13 22:01:30 <[Tycho]> Can such list be a vulnerability ?
1546 2012-03-13 22:02:00 <BlueMatt> if you have a vulnerability in your node, yea...otherwise I cant think of one...
1547 2012-03-13 22:02:33 <[Tycho]> Attacker could see if his flooding works or not.
1548 2012-03-13 22:02:47 <BlueMatt> yea
1549 2012-03-13 22:03:17 <BlueMatt> so only if your node is broken, it just opens up a window onto your internal workings (ish)
1550 2012-03-13 22:03:39 <[Tycho]> There can be some unknown hole.
1551 2012-03-13 22:03:42 vigilyn2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1552 2012-03-13 22:04:01 <BlueMatt> yep
1553 2012-03-13 22:04:20 vigilyn2 has joined
1554 2012-03-13 22:04:30 <BlueMatt> but its pretty safe to assume that having such a list is only a "vuln" if you added the code yourself
1555 2012-03-13 22:04:49 <BlueMatt> if its in bitcoind by default, most people would assume you have the vuln and test it anyway
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1572 2012-03-13 22:14:30 <luke-jr> / To help v0.1.5 clients who would see it as a negative number
1573 2012-03-13 22:14:34 <luke-jr> I think no longer needed?
1574 2012-03-13 22:15:09 <Diablo-D3> yeah really
1575 2012-03-13 22:15:10 <luke-jr> oh wait, I'm wroking on old code
1576 2012-03-13 22:15:18 <Diablo-D3> I think its safe to say all pre 0.2.x clients are dead
1577 2012-03-13 22:15:22 <Diablo-D3> due to the checksum change
1578 2012-03-13 22:17:14 toffoo has quit ()
1579 2012-03-13 22:17:43 <t7> what would be a helpfull project to start
1580 2012-03-13 22:17:49 <t7> (bitcoin based website)
1581 2012-03-13 22:18:05 <t7> blackjack? or are there too many gambling sites ...
1582 2012-03-13 22:18:26 <BlueMatt> bitcoin-supporting (not based) paypal competitor, but have fun working out the legal issues ;)
1583 2012-03-13 22:19:08 <t7> smaller :)
1584 2012-03-13 22:20:23 <t7> maybe a btc frontend to amazon or something
1585 2012-03-13 22:20:35 <t7> i dont think they let me ship to random adresses
1586 2012-03-13 22:20:45 <BlueMatt> I think Ive seen one of those, but its probably long since dead
1587 2012-03-13 22:21:11 <BlueMatt> (it was like a ff plugin or something)
1588 2012-03-13 22:21:26 <BlueMatt> (and it sent your orders to a 3rd party who ordered them to you automatically and you paid with bitcoin)
1589 2012-03-13 22:21:40 <BlueMatt> actually, on second thought I think I mustve dreamt that...
1590 2012-03-13 22:21:43 <BlueMatt> you could do that...
1591 2012-03-13 22:21:45 <t7> yeah thats what i was thinking
1592 2012-03-13 22:21:57 <t7> but i think i can only ship to card address
1593 2012-03-13 22:22:06 <BlueMatt> card address?
1594 2012-03-13 22:22:26 ThomasV has joined
1595 2012-03-13 22:22:37 <t7> the same address as the card you order with
1596 2012-03-13 22:23:05 <BlueMatt> card? you order with bitcoin
1597 2012-03-13 22:23:30 <t7> no i mean if im the one taking bitcoin and ordering on amazon
1598 2012-03-13 22:24:32 <freewil> yeah if you wanted to do a service like that you'd have to act as a shipping proxy
1599 2012-03-13 22:25:05 <BlueMatt> really? wont amazon let you send to any address?
1600 2012-03-13 22:25:30 bitvampire has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1601 2012-03-13 22:25:45 <freewil> probably would raise some fraud flags i imagine
1602 2012-03-13 22:25:57 <DBordello> Aren't there amazon GC services?
1603 2012-03-13 22:26:26 TD has joined
1604 2012-03-13 22:26:35 <freewil> yeah i know ive seen btc -> amazon and newegg gift cards
1605 2012-03-13 22:26:57 <t7> ah thats a thought
1606 2012-03-13 22:28:33 <BlueMatt> you could accept payment and then automatically plug in amazon giftcards
1607 2012-03-13 22:28:53 <DBordello> I think amazon payments could work?
1608 2012-03-13 22:28:59 FACEFOX has quit (Quit: http://www.facefox.com)
1609 2012-03-13 22:29:30 <t7> i think btc blackjack is a nice starter project
1610 2012-03-13 22:31:24 bitvampire has joined
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1615 2012-03-13 22:36:38 <etotheipi_> Satoshi wallet question: in what field are address comments stored?
1616 2012-03-13 22:37:09 <sipa> i didn't know we had address comments?
1617 2012-03-13 22:37:42 <BlueMatt> you mean address labels?
1618 2012-03-13 22:38:01 <etotheipi_> err.. yes, labels
1619 2012-03-13 22:38:27 <etotheipi_> oh, is that 'name' entry?
1620 2012-03-13 22:39:19 <BlueMatt> db.cpp?
1621 2012-03-13 22:39:28 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1622 2012-03-13 22:40:12 <etotheipi_> sorry, it is just the "name" field: I didn't associate that with what I was looking for, which I call "comments" in Armory
1623 2012-03-13 22:40:34 <sipa> it's more than a comment, since it also functions as account name for incoming payments
1624 2012-03-13 22:40:46 <etotheipi_> ahhh
1625 2012-03-13 22:41:45 <DBordello> Do RPC errors return a http 500 Internal Server Error return code?
1626 2012-03-13 22:41:57 <sipa> normally not
1627 2012-03-13 22:43:01 <DBordello> Hmmm, I think I am seeing that on "insufficient funds" commands
1628 2012-03-13 22:44:19 graingert has joined
1629 2012-03-13 22:46:21 <BlueMatt> wait "Chain claims the [rare earth] embargoes are in place to protect its environment" wtf???
1630 2012-03-13 22:46:30 h4ckm3 has quit (Quit: changing servers)
1631 2012-03-13 22:46:30 <BlueMatt> when the hell did china start caring about its environment
1632 2012-03-13 22:46:46 <BlueMatt> no one honestly believes that, do they?
1633 2012-03-13 22:46:48 <Diablo-D3> blueMatt: they dont
1634 2012-03-13 22:46:52 <Diablo-D3> and that was translated wrong
1635 2012-03-13 22:46:56 <Diablo-D3> it was to protect the economy
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1637 2012-03-13 22:47:06 <Diablo-D3> they dont want the US to move factories out of china
1638 2012-03-13 22:47:30 <BlueMatt> they wouldnt state it was to protect the economy
1639 2012-03-13 22:47:38 <BlueMatt> that would be like flicking off the wto
1640 2012-03-13 22:47:47 <BlueMatt> not that china really cares, but still...
1641 2012-03-13 22:47:53 h4ckm3 has joined
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1645 2012-03-13 22:48:29 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: wto isnt involved here
1646 2012-03-13 22:48:37 <Diablo-D3> china can control their private resources however they want
1647 2012-03-13 22:48:41 <BlueMatt> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/03/13/2126209/us-eu-japan-complain-to-wto-over-chinas-rare-earth-ban?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29
1648 2012-03-13 22:48:44 <Diablo-D3> they're all state owned mining companies
1649 2012-03-13 22:48:57 <Diablo-D3> yes, and I still dont care
1650 2012-03-13 22:49:00 <Diablo-D3> its not a wto problem
1651 2012-03-13 22:49:01 <BlueMatt> yea, but the wto is involved when Im talking about china's response to the wto...
1652 2012-03-13 22:49:04 <Diablo-D3> the wto has no control over china
1653 2012-03-13 22:49:11 <Diablo-D3> no one does
1654 2012-03-13 22:49:14 <BlueMatt> no, they dont but that is what the wto was made for...
1655 2012-03-13 22:49:18 <Diablo-D3> and china is realizing the door is open
1656 2012-03-13 22:49:38 <Diablo-D3> I say we just highly tax all chinese made goods and collapse their economy
1657 2012-03-13 22:49:46 att has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1658 2012-03-13 22:50:02 <BlueMatt> is realizing? china has been on the course of fuck everyone else for quite a while now
1659 2012-03-13 22:50:11 <BlueMatt> uh, yea that would kill the us economy just as quickly...
1660 2012-03-13 22:50:24 iocor has joined
1661 2012-03-13 22:50:43 <BlueMatt> that said, I vote for nuking china into one big parking lot
1662 2012-03-13 22:51:02 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: Im looking at the large scale here
1663 2012-03-13 22:51:08 <Diablo-D3> "recently" is everything post ww2
1664 2012-03-13 22:51:15 <BlueMatt> well, yea ok then
1665 2012-03-13 22:52:22 <Diablo-D3> btw, wanna hear the original track?
1666 2012-03-13 22:52:37 <BlueMatt> what?
1667 2012-03-13 22:52:49 <BlueMatt> meh, it was before my time, I dont really care... ;)
1668 2012-03-13 22:53:11 <Diablo-D3> er, sorry, said that in wrong window
1669 2012-03-13 22:53:20 <BlueMatt> seemed...odd
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1689 2012-03-13 23:16:54 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/b0dc119b75d5f0d19c9aef1047f6083f5b3de638
1690 2012-03-13 23:16:59 <luke-jr> ^ careful audits requested
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1695 2012-03-13 23:27:22 * neofutur recruiting cool people to join us on #bitcoin-hosting
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1699 2012-03-13 23:32:33 <luke-jr> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68677.0
1700 2012-03-13 23:35:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: 50% of hashing power to make a hard fork
1701 2012-03-13 23:35:04 <BlueMatt> uh...
1702 2012-03-13 23:35:12 t7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1703 2012-03-13 23:35:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: ?
1704 2012-03-13 23:35:22 <sipa> BIP18 == BIP16 written differently
1705 2012-03-13 23:35:22 <BlueMatt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0018
1706 2012-03-13 23:35:43 <BlueMatt> but it disables every old script format?
1707 2012-03-13 23:35:50 pingdrive has joined
1708 2012-03-13 23:35:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: deprecates, not disables
1709 2012-03-13 23:35:56 <BlueMatt> oh, well nvm
1710 2012-03-13 23:36:03 <BlueMatt> so what does bip18 add to bip16?
1711 2012-03-13 23:36:09 <sipa> nothing
1712 2012-03-13 23:36:20 <sipa> it is identical in terms of protocol
1713 2012-03-13 23:36:39 <pingdrive> can you also tell us if people that dont mine on deepbit need to update?
1714 2012-03-13 23:36:47 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: sanity
1715 2012-03-13 23:36:55 * BlueMatt facepalm
1716 2012-03-13 23:36:57 <luke-jr> pingdrive: there's nothing to update.
1717 2012-03-13 23:37:13 <graingert> luke-jr: how do you determine if a p2sh is standard?
1718 2012-03-13 23:37:20 <luke-jr> graingert: ?
1719 2012-03-13 23:37:27 <pingdrive> oh okay so no new client to get... cool thanks
1720 2012-03-13 23:37:31 <[Tycho]> Scripts are cool, don't deprecate them
1721 2012-03-13 23:37:34 <luke-jr> pingdrive: well, not yet
1722 2012-03-13 23:37:40 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: just scriptPubKey
1723 2012-03-13 23:37:44 <graingert> luke-jr: Check transaction inputs, and make sure any pay-to-script-hash transactions are evaluating IsStandard scripts
1724 2012-03-13 23:38:10 <pingdrive> so did deepbit force it on everyone or had to happen?
1725 2012-03-13 23:38:17 da2ce7 has joined
1726 2012-03-13 23:38:48 <sipa> pingdrive: ?
1727 2012-03-13 23:38:49 <luke-jr> pingdrive: Gavin refused to consider the better solution, and he has more influence.
1728 2012-03-13 23:38:50 <graingert> luke-jr: hang on maybe that comment is saying the oposite
1729 2012-03-13 23:39:01 <graingert> luke-jr: refering to http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/b0dc119b75d5f0d19c9aef1047f6083f5b3de638
1730 2012-03-13 23:39:05 <[Tycho]> I tried to delay it as possible, but looks like nothing more can be done.
1731 2012-03-13 23:39:11 <luke-jr> anyone know the current P2SH activation dates?
1732 2012-03-13 23:39:19 <sipa> april first
1733 2012-03-13 23:39:20 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: 01.04
1734 2012-03-13 23:39:24 <luke-jr> graingert: what line/section are we talking about?
1735 2012-03-13 23:39:36 <luke-jr> sipa: Apr 1 for enforcement, but what for the 50% check?
1736 2012-03-13 23:39:37 <pingdrive> wow, who the fuck is Gavin
1737 2012-03-13 23:39:45 <BlueMatt> what?
1738 2012-03-13 23:39:47 <luke-jr> pingdrive: ⦠the lead developer for bitcoind
1739 2012-03-13 23:39:59 <graingert> luke-jr: b/src/main.cpp
1740 2012-03-13 23:40:06 <luke-jr> graingert: main.cpp is huge :p
1741 2012-03-13 23:40:15 <graingert> luke-jr: there are no line numbers on BitGit!
1742 2012-03-13 23:40:23 <sipa> luke-jr: march 15
1743 2012-03-13 23:40:27 <graingert> luke-jr: it's the first line in the commit dif
1744 2012-03-13 23:40:29 <luke-jr> graingert: crap!
1745 2012-03-13 23:40:35 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: scriptPubKey is the most important. Don't care about the other one.
1746 2012-03-13 23:40:41 <pingdrive> oh okay we are fucked
1747 2012-03-13 23:40:41 <luke-jr> graingert: ok, what's the question then? :P
1748 2012-03-13 23:40:53 <graingert> luke-jr: I'm not sure what that comment means
1749 2012-03-13 23:40:54 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: BIP 18 introduces a new one: scriptCheck
1750 2012-03-13 23:41:00 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: care to elaborate?
1751 2012-03-13 23:41:03 <graingert> does it mean why bother checking IsStandard
1752 2012-03-13 23:41:11 <graingert> or does it mean check IsStandard
1753 2012-03-13 23:41:17 <luke-jr> graingert: yesâ¦
1754 2012-03-13 23:41:18 <sipa> [Tycho]: everything that could be done in scriptPubKey can be moved to scriptSig with BIP16/BIP18
1755 2012-03-13 23:41:19 <pingdrive> one developer forces a change onto everyone
1756 2012-03-13 23:41:26 <pingdrive> whats there to elaborate
1757 2012-03-13 23:41:27 <graingert> luke-jr: you said yes to both
1758 2012-03-13 23:41:29 <BlueMatt> what change?
1759 2012-03-13 23:41:31 <etotheipi_> pingdrive, that's not even close to accurate
1760 2012-03-13 23:41:33 <sipa> pingdrive: many developers agree with him, except luke
1761 2012-03-13 23:41:36 <[Tycho]> sipa: yes, I don't like that.
1762 2012-03-13 23:41:53 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: afaik the only developer who disagrees with bip16 is luke
1763 2012-03-13 23:42:09 iocor has joined
1764 2012-03-13 23:42:10 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and the only developer who disagrees with bip17 is Gavin :p
1765 2012-03-13 23:42:31 <sipa> [Tycho]: why not?
1766 2012-03-13 23:42:32 <graingert> bip16 Backwards compatible hackish soln, bip17 backwards incompatible non hackish soln
1767 2012-03-13 23:42:35 <luke-jr> anyhow, when is the "check for 50%" date?
1768 2012-03-13 23:42:38 <BlueMatt> and more developers prefer bip16 over 17, are we really gonna discuss this crap again?
1769 2012-03-13 23:42:40 <[Tycho]> Moving scripts to scriptSig is one of the worst things in BIP16. THE worst is magic-case script interpretation.
1770 2012-03-13 23:42:43 <sipa> luke-jr: march 15
1771 2012-03-13 23:42:45 <BlueMatt> I mean seriously, I thought this crap was over
1772 2012-03-13 23:43:13 <sipa> [Tycho]: i know you don't think it is "nice", but do you have any objection to the general idea of moving the scripts to the input
1773 2012-03-13 23:43:16 * [Tycho] is kicking the dead horse
1774 2012-03-13 23:43:39 * luke-jr has been kicking the dead horse for the last hour as he fought to get a 0.4.x backport of BIP 16
1775 2012-03-13 23:43:41 <pingdrive> well its not ove rbecause it is somewhat unsettling that one guy decides wtf is going on
1776 2012-03-13 23:43:44 * luke-jr is tired of it
1777 2012-03-13 23:43:44 <graingert> it's more of a horse paste
1778 2012-03-13 23:43:55 <sipa> pingdrive: please, this is not one guy
1779 2012-03-13 23:44:08 <gmaxwell> pingdrive: The only "one guy" is Luke.
1780 2012-03-13 23:44:14 <sipa> there was a discussion among many developers, and bip16 was chosen as best solution
1781 2012-03-13 23:44:17 <BlueMatt> pingdrive: uh, thats so far from the truth Im seriously considering banning you right now...
1782 2012-03-13 23:44:20 <[Tycho]> The "one guy" is Gavin.
1783 2012-03-13 23:44:21 <etotheipi_> pingdrive, all the main developers agreed on 90% of the solution, but there was disagreement about the last 10%... someone had to break the gridlock
1784 2012-03-13 23:44:36 <pingdrive> banning me for what
1785 2012-03-13 23:44:50 <BlueMatt> people spreading fud like that is the reason people think that bip16 was some huge fight in the dev community
1786 2012-03-13 23:44:54 <BlueMatt> spreading fud
1787 2012-03-13 23:44:57 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'd rather inform him than ban him
1788 2012-03-13 23:44:59 <BlueMatt> or repeating fud, I dont care which
1789 2012-03-13 23:45:16 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1790 2012-03-13 23:45:30 <gmaxwell> Pingdrive is trolly by default, I doubt its intentional here.
1791 2012-03-13 23:45:34 Samuel has joined
1792 2012-03-13 23:45:39 <pingdrive> fuck sorry for having disdain for authority
1793 2012-03-13 23:45:39 <sipa> haha
1794 2012-03-13 23:46:14 <[Tycho]> sipa: magic script interpretation is just plain wrong, not only "not nice"
1795 2012-03-13 23:46:16 <luke-jr> pingdrive: ironically, that argument will get me on their side :p
1796 2012-03-13 23:46:25 <sipa> [Tycho]: i don't care; that was not my question
1797 2012-03-13 23:46:43 <gmaxwell> pingdrive: if "authority likes it so it must be bad" is your decision metric, then you need to grow upâ to be frank.
1798 2012-03-13 23:46:49 <pingdrive> grr i am not really trying to defend you
1799 2012-03-13 23:47:00 <[Tycho]> sipa: as for moving to scriptSig - it requires out-of-band communication in many cases.
1800 2012-03-13 23:47:19 <sipa> [Tycho]: that is required for more complex scripts in general anyway
1801 2012-03-13 23:47:23 <pingdrive> i just read a post about someone saying "fuck what deepbit" is doing i am proposing another change
1802 2012-03-13 23:47:31 <pingdrive> so i start asking questions
1803 2012-03-13 23:47:55 <pingdrive> and rather than getting a decent answer i get a threat
1804 2012-03-13 23:48:23 <gmaxwell> pingdrive: "pingdrive> one developer forces a change onto everyone pingdrive> whats there to elaborate"
1805 2012-03-13 23:48:23 <sipa> pingdrive: please understand: this argument has been brought up here a thousand times, and many people are tired of it
1806 2012-03-13 23:48:28 <gmaxwell> ^ thats a bunch of trolling.
1807 2012-03-13 23:48:32 <BlueMatt> no, you came in insulting gavin
1808 2012-03-13 23:48:33 <pingdrive> whenever you answer or threat you still waste time, so might as well make a positive difference?
1809 2012-03-13 23:48:38 <BlueMatt> big difference from asking questions
1810 2012-03-13 23:48:52 <[Tycho]> pingdrive: what I did is just stopped holding it off.
1811 2012-03-13 23:48:59 <gmaxwell> And if you can't see that you're trolling then we'd all (including you) probably be much happier if the 'threat' was made good on.
1812 2012-03-13 23:49:04 <luke-jr> https://github.com/genjix/bips/pulls
1813 2012-03-13 23:49:14 <luke-jr> anyone want to ACK https://github.com/genjix/bips/pull/8 ?
1814 2012-03-13 23:49:18 <pingdrive> grr
1815 2012-03-13 23:49:45 <graingert> wow it's horse paste in both the bitcoin channels today
1816 2012-03-13 23:50:25 <pingdrive> i am a fucking newb
1817 2012-03-13 23:50:25 <pingdrive> of course i am going to sound liek a troll
1818 2012-03-13 23:51:08 <gmaxwell> pingdrive: we can all cope with some misunderstand if you can too.
1819 2012-03-13 23:51:21 <BlueMatt> instead of coming in saying <pingdrive> oh okay we are fucked you could come in and say "what is it with all this bip16 fighting going on?"
1820 2012-03-13 23:51:59 <gmaxwell> And not saying 'whats there to elaborate' to the response, geesh. :)
1821 2012-03-13 23:52:22 * luke-jr kicks BIP 16 again for good measure.
1822 2012-03-13 23:52:44 * BlueMatt kicks luke-jr for kicking a dead horse
1823 2012-03-13 23:52:54 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: did you see the pull request?
1824 2012-03-13 23:53:17 <BlueMatt> yea, but I assumed while we were kicking things I might as well join in
1825 2012-03-13 23:53:26 * gmaxwell kicks BlueMatt
1826 2012-03-13 23:53:33 * sipa kicks the general concept of kicking
1827 2012-03-13 23:54:23 <luke-jr> sipa: hypocrite
1828 2012-03-13 23:55:24 <sipa> haha
1829 2012-03-13 23:55:33 <pingdrive> BlueMatt, that doesn't work, i tried
1830 2012-03-13 23:55:49 <BlueMatt> you'd atleast get a more measured response
1831 2012-03-13 23:56:21 <pingdrive> in the form of: biitcointalk.org/post = bullshit post
1832 2012-03-13 23:56:37 <BlueMatt> not everyone reads the forum...
1833 2012-03-13 23:56:52 <BlueMatt> or clicks every link people post without any more than a link
1834 2012-03-13 23:57:15 <gmaxwell> pingdrive: I probably responded to you and yelled at you for trolling.
1835 2012-03-13 23:57:23 <gmaxwell> (because you frequently are!)
1836 2012-03-13 23:57:58 <pingdrive> gmaxwell, such a waste of time to keep tabs on stuff like that
1837 2012-03-13 23:58:05 <pingdrive> i read forums
1838 2012-03-13 23:58:57 <pingdrive> but honestly there is not much time to get everything down and be on board... hence the remarks (trolling)
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