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   4 2012-03-29 00:06:18 <sipa> MagicalTux: from #bitcoin:
   5 2012-03-29 00:06:31 <sipa> < I2PRelay> <batou2> This order would exceed the size of the order book. You would sell 27054131 bitcoins for a total of  1321531.7168 USD and take the price to 0. @
   6 2012-03-29 00:06:39 <sipa> sounds a bit... excessive
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  10 2012-03-29 00:08:30 <MagicalTux> sipa: I'd love seeing someone selling 27 million BTC
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  12 2012-03-29 00:08:41 <sipa> i bet :D
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  15 2012-03-29 00:09:28 <luke-jr> doesn't that basically mean it's impossible to take the price to 0 now?
  16 2012-03-29 00:11:25 <copumpkin> ;;bids 0
  17 2012-03-29 00:11:27 <gribble> There are currently 27054544 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 1322037.13792 USD in total.
  18 2012-03-29 00:12:39 <luke-jr> ;;bids 1
  19 2012-03-29 00:12:40 <gribble> There are currently 546598.5 bitcoins demanded at or over 1.0 USD, worth 1266693.94466 USD in total.
  20 2012-03-29 00:12:51 <luke-jr> I bet jgarzik could do that ^
  21 2012-03-29 00:14:18 <ELT> ;;bids 10
  22 2012-03-29 00:14:19 <gribble> There are currently 0 bitcoins demanded at or over 10.0 USD, worth 0.0 USD in total.
  23 2012-03-29 00:14:55 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
  24 2012-03-29 00:14:56 <gribble> 173342
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  27 2012-03-29 00:21:09 <lordcirth_> Any ballpark as to when Armory will be independent of bitcoind?
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  29 2012-03-29 00:21:54 <sipa> ask etotheipi_
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  37 2012-03-29 00:33:07 <etotheipi_> lordcirth_, it's gonna be a while before Armory is network independent
  38 2012-03-29 00:33:21 <etotheipi_> but RAM-reduction on Linux and OSX will be available for testing this weekend
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  42 2012-03-29 00:34:29 <etotheipi_> unfortunately, tethering Armory to bitcoind is providing a tremendous amount of security to Armory, at the expense of convenience to the user
  43 2012-03-29 00:36:14 <etotheipi_> so I'm not in any rush to figure out how to cut the umbilical cord
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  51 2012-03-29 01:10:05 <lordcirth_> etothepi_: Sry afk. Well, that's good news, anyway. I have 8GB RAM so I'm not worried about the RAM tho. I'm looking forward to the multiple wallet service, it would be great for business, budgeting, etc
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  53 2012-03-29 01:12:57 <etotheipi_> lordcirth_, what are you looking forward to?  I'm wondering how I can better target my development to users' needs
  54 2012-03-29 01:13:10 <etotheipi_> or maybe what you want can already be done
  55 2012-03-29 01:13:43 <etotheipi_> btw, you should be worried about the RAM, because the blockchain size is accelerating quickly:  it works with 4 GB of RAM right now, but it won't for long!
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  57 2012-03-29 01:19:06 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: huh? who stores the blockchain in RAM?
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 109 2012-03-29 04:26:56 <amiller> alright here's my first draft at explaining my proposed alternate proof of work scheme https://gist.github.com/2232636
 110 2012-03-29 04:30:07 <gmaxwell> amiller: You sort of undermine my interest in bothering to read the rest by misrepresneting checkpointing as a mechenism "for coping with the increasing storage burden".
 111 2012-03-29 04:30:20 <amiller> hrm
 112 2012-03-29 04:32:13 <gmaxwell> As I misunderstanding that you also require them to retain spent transactions?  If so that would completely inhibit pruning.
 113 2012-03-29 04:33:42 <amiller> i don't think it would be hard to modify this to skip over pruned txoutputs
 114 2012-03-29 04:34:02 <gmaxwell> I didn't suggest it was.
 115 2012-03-29 04:34:36 <amiller> but pruning doesn't reduce any costs if it's part of the proof of work scheme
 116 2012-03-29 04:34:44 <gmaxwell> But it's not much of a proposal if you have to keep changing it in response to weaknesses which take me 10 seconds to spot.
 117 2012-03-29 04:38:37 <gmaxwell> Your POW can't be validated by nodes that lack a complete copy of the blockchain.
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 119 2012-03-29 04:40:15 <gmaxwell> This would be horrific for decentralization and independence and would prevent the existance of secure SPV nodes. In Bitcoin, all full nodes can independantly validate the protocol rules— with this particular scheme you couldn't even prevent yourself from being dos attacked by someone flooding you with junk blocks.
 120 2012-03-29 04:40:46 <gmaxwell> You could fix this— by chaning how the binding works. But, — I pointed this potential weakness out to you already, so I don't understand why you didn't fix it.
 121 2012-03-29 04:54:54 <amiller> ok i think i understand your comment from yesterday better now, that the cost of validation should be low enough that lots of people besides miners can validate it
 122 2012-03-29 04:55:22 <amiller> so far i have that it's exponentially cheaper to validate than it is to mine competitively.. but it still seems to require the whole block chain which is a lot
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 124 2012-03-29 04:58:12 <nanotube> the other issue is that bitcoin is never going to do it, it'll have to be an alt-chain. so trying to glom it onto the existing block chain such as gmaxwells proposal is probably more likely to happen. (if it is determined that something like this should happen at all)...
 125 2012-03-29 04:58:42 <nanotube> but it is an interesting thought experiment i guess ;)
 126 2012-03-29 04:59:36 <gmaxwell> amiller: for anti-dos sake it has to be ultra-cheap to check that the party providing the block did a lot of work to produce it, but for general decenteralization it also should not require the chain to validate partially, and not require the unpruned chain to validate fully (so it doesn't increase the full validation requirements)
 127 2012-03-29 05:02:15 osmosis has joined
 128 2012-03-29 05:03:31 <amiller> ok, i'll have answers for those next time i come back
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 135 2012-03-29 06:02:16 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1006 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1006>
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 140 2012-03-29 06:22:37 <hctib> How do I set up a website to check if a payment has been sent?  Can I do this without having a client on the server?
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 248 2012-03-29 12:42:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: max 5 files? that's quite impressive (i had max 12 files, when doing it manually, but checking every 2 seconds)
 249 2012-03-29 12:42:37 <gavinandresen> yup.  I think AUTO_REMOVE is the right answer.
 250 2012-03-29 12:45:54 <gavinandresen> So.... pull translations from transifex, AUTO_REMOVE... and what about the addr.dat hang?  We could just never bother erasing the old entries
 251 2012-03-29 12:46:21 <sipa> i'm not convinced that is the actual solution
 252 2012-03-29 12:46:47 <gavinandresen> Do you think it would avoid the problem?  Actual solution could wait for a 0.6.1 or 0.7
 253 2012-03-29 12:47:00 <sipa> probably
 254 2012-03-29 12:47:13 <sipa> but the actual problem is locks surviving process crashes
 255 2012-03-29 12:47:27 <gavinandresen> agreed
 256 2012-03-29 12:47:40 <sipa> and there is no reason to assume this is limited to addr.datr
 257 2012-03-29 12:47:53 <sipa> though addrman's rewrite of it exposes it
 258 2012-03-29 12:48:05 <gavinandresen> weird we've never seen it before
 259 2012-03-29 12:48:42 <gavinandresen> I suppose we're mostly write-only in our use of bdb
 260 2012-03-29 12:49:05 <gavinandresen> ... or, at least, we don't do a lot of erasing
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 263 2012-03-29 13:12:59 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened pull request 1007 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1007>
 264 2012-03-29 13:14:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: i don't get it, i'm unable to reproduce luke's problem now
 265 2012-03-29 13:15:33 <gavinandresen> I'll see if I can...
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 267 2012-03-29 13:15:58 <sipa> i wanted to try whether dbenv.set_timeout helped
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 269 2012-03-29 13:17:20 <sipa> ok, never mind
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 274 2012-03-29 13:20:15 <sipa> Although Berkeley DB allows an application to have multiple outstanding transactions active within a single thread of control, great care must be taken to ensure that the transactions do not block each other (for example, attempt to obtain conflicting locks on the same data). If two concurrently active transactions in the same thread of control do encounter a lock conflict, the thread of control will deadlock so that the deadlock detector cannot...
 275 2012-03-29 13:20:21 <sipa> detect the problem. In this case, there is no true deadlock, but because the transaction on which a transaction is waiting is in the same thread of control, no forward progress can be made.
 276 2012-03-29 13:23:34 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 277 2012-03-29 13:23:43 * helo wonders what causes 'concurrently active transactions in the same thread'
 278 2012-03-29 13:24:28 <helo> at first glance "in the same thread" and "concurrently active" seem contradictory
 279 2012-03-29 13:25:20 <sipa> if you create two independent DbTxn's in a single application
 280 2012-03-29 13:25:27 <sipa> *thread
 281 2012-03-29 13:28:30 <helo> ahh... "thread of control" != "db thread"
 282 2012-03-29 13:29:17 <helo> maybe one application (the thread of control) could have multiple transactions that are being processed concurrently in separate db threads
 283 2012-03-29 13:29:34 <sipa> sure
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 285 2012-03-29 13:32:54 <jeremias> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/URI_Scheme#Python
 286 2012-03-29 13:33:16 <jeremias> it seems that the reference implementation for python sucks
 287 2012-03-29 13:33:24 <jeremias> and otherwise, the URI scheme sucks
 288 2012-03-29 13:33:32 <jeremias> who invented this shit
 289 2012-03-29 13:33:53 <jeremias> If exponent is omitted, implementations SHOULD assume X8 for decimal numbers, and X4 for hexadecimal numbers. I.e. amount=50.00 is treated as 50 BTC, and amount=x40 is treated as 40 TBC. When specifying bitcoin base units, "X0" SHOULD be used.
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 291 2012-03-29 13:34:17 <gavinandresen> yeah, that's luke-jr.   We nuked all that crap.
 292 2012-03-29 13:34:44 <gavinandresen> jeremias: see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0021   for mostly up-to-date spec
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 294 2012-03-29 13:34:52 <jeremias> so, when you google bitcoin uri, that shit turns out first
 295 2012-03-29 13:34:55 <jeremias> how to change that
 296 2012-03-29 13:35:01 <gavinandresen> it's a wiki....
 297 2012-03-29 13:35:39 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 298 2012-03-29 13:36:13 <jeremias> well, I try to edit it so others don't waste their precious time like I did... fuck
 299 2012-03-29 13:36:21 <gavinandresen> nice, thanks
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 305 2012-03-29 13:46:58 <sipa> gavinandresen: how long did that sync take, by the way?
 306 2012-03-29 13:47:12 <gavinandresen> I don't know, I was asleep when it finished.
 307 2012-03-29 13:47:34 <sipa> ah, i always run benchmarks with -logtimestamps :)
 308 2012-03-29 13:47:42 <gavinandresen> good idea
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 310 2012-03-29 13:48:23 <gavinandresen> I haven't been setting up for benchmark conditions, though-- I'm downloading from a random peer, etc
 311 2012-03-29 13:49:12 <sipa> ok, because the slower you download, the more checkpoints will be created, hence more chances for log removal
 312 2012-03-29 13:49:43 <sipa> i can't do it with less than 12 log files, when loading the block chain from a local file
 313 2012-03-29 13:50:00 <gavinandresen> 12 is not bad-- 120MB
 314 2012-03-29 13:50:06 <sipa> now, i doubt anyone cares whether it's 5 or 12 log files
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 317 2012-03-29 13:50:57 <gavinandresen> I just pulled translations, the only issue left is the addr.dat hang.
 318 2012-03-29 13:51:14 <gavinandresen> (assuming we're all happy with the AUTO_REMOVE pull)
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 321 2012-03-29 13:53:10 <sipa> AUTO_REMOVE seems the way to go; i'll do a benchmark with it still
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 323 2012-03-29 13:53:44 <sipa> by the way: subversion with bdb backend sets AUTO_REMOVE by default, unless you specify --keep-db-logs or something like that
 324 2012-03-29 13:54:13 <gavinandresen> interesting...
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 326 2012-03-29 13:56:23 <sipa> i wonder how much lsn_reset plays a role
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 328 2012-03-29 13:56:56 <sipa> it makes the .dat files clean for transport to a different environnement, but it also seems take some time
 329 2012-03-29 13:57:05 <sipa> so i wonder whether it's also a form of flushing
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 331 2012-03-29 14:03:51 * gavinandresen goes to read up on what the heck a lsn is
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 333 2012-03-29 14:04:47 <sipa> some sort of counter for indexing into the log files; if you don't reset them, the db files can still reference the log files, and cause failure when those aren't available anymore
 334 2012-03-29 14:04:52 <sipa> even though there was a checkpoint
 335 2012-03-29 14:04:55 <sipa> or something
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 337 2012-03-29 14:07:05 <sipa> doesn't sound bad to also do that occassionally
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 341 2012-03-29 14:22:00 <gavinandresen> Thinking about it... we should set DB_TXN_NOT_DURABLE for blkindex.dat. And maybe addr.dat.  http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E17276_01/html/api_reference/CXX/dbset_flags.html
 342 2012-03-29 14:22:47 <gavinandresen> That avoids the entire fill-up-disk-with-log-files issue entirely.
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 344 2012-03-29 14:23:35 <sipa> no integrity when the system crashes? i don't like that...
 345 2012-03-29 14:23:59 <gavinandresen> meh.  You lose some blocks and have to re-download them....
 346 2012-03-29 14:24:33 <gavinandresen> blkindex.dat will still be consistent.  blk00001.dat might end up containing duplicates
 347 2012-03-29 14:24:33 <sipa> no, that's durability
 348 2012-03-29 14:24:43 <sipa> integrity means that the file may be inconsistent
 349 2012-03-29 14:25:00 <gavinandresen> ACID : TXN_NOT_DURABLE just drops the D
 350 2012-03-29 14:25:18 <sipa> This means that updates of this database exhibit the ACI (atomicity, consistency, and isolation) properties, but not D (durability); that is, database integrity will be maintained, but if the application or system fails, integrity will not persist.
 351 2012-03-29 14:26:35 <gavinandresen> right, isolation not integrity....  (I shoulda taken a database course in college)
 352 2012-03-29 14:28:09 Sedra- has joined
 353 2012-03-29 14:28:31 <sipa> gavinandresen: it seems i was running with logsize 1M instead of 10M
 354 2012-03-29 14:28:38 <helo> shouldn't it be: amountparam    = "amount=" +digit [ "." +digit ]
 355 2012-03-29 14:28:49 <sipa> gavinandresen: wait, not sure
 356 2012-03-29 14:29:00 <helo> instead of amountparam    = "amount=" *digit [ "." *digit ]
 357 2012-03-29 14:29:30 <sipa> gavinandresen: oh, no, it's you who changed the bsize to 1M
 358 2012-03-29 14:29:43 <helo> well, i guess it's not really necessary
 359 2012-03-29 14:30:20 <gavinandresen> sipa:  yes, I just dropped a zero from the 10M/100M setting...
 360 2012-03-29 14:30:35 <gavinandresen> sipa:  let me know what they should be
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 363 2012-03-29 14:32:08 <helo> although amount=. would be kind of weird
 364 2012-03-29 14:33:23 <gavinandresen> helo:  we should follow JSON or some other well-known standard
 365 2012-03-29 14:34:07 <helo> ye
 366 2012-03-29 14:36:26 <gavinandresen> json.org has a nice BNF definition for 'number' that doesn't allow "." as a valid number.  You can pull request BIP changes by forking https://github.com/genjix/bips
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 368 2012-03-29 14:38:53 <sipa> gavinandresen: benchmarking your patch now
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 370 2012-03-29 14:40:09 <gavinandresen> sipa: thanks.  I'm out for a bit, back in a hour or two
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 372 2012-03-29 14:42:48 <gavinandresen> one thought on lsn_reset:  if DB_RECOVER happens at environment-opening time, then would it ever hurt to call lsn_reset before opening a .dat? It'd either be a no-op (if clean shutdown) or might be better than a failure to open if there was a dirty shutdown and user copied the .dat files separate from the logs.....
 373 2012-03-29 14:44:36 <sipa> i doubt you can do lsn_reset when the database environment is unclean
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 386 2012-03-29 14:58:59 <t7> whats being done about the 0 tx issue?
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 389 2012-03-29 15:04:17 <t7> will the getwork command return the same hash, if the blockchain head hasnt changed?
 390 2012-03-29 15:04:22 nr9 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 391 2012-03-29 15:07:44 <sipa> t7: no
 392 2012-03-29 15:07:52 <t7> its random?
 393 2012-03-29 15:08:01 <sipa> well, getwork doesn't return a hash; it returns work for you to find a hash
 394 2012-03-29 15:08:11 <sipa> but the work it gives will be different every time
 395 2012-03-29 15:08:19 <t7> cool
 396 2012-03-29 15:08:32 <sipa> otherwise, how would you cope with doing more than 2^32 hashes per 10 minutes?
 397 2012-03-29 15:08:42 <sipa> you'd be doing the same work over and over
 398 2012-03-29 15:09:01 <t7> whats the network rate atm?
 399 2012-03-29 15:09:17 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
 400 2012-03-29 15:09:18 <gribble> 11398.633639951546
 401 2012-03-29 15:09:22 <sipa> (in Ghash/s)
 402 2012-03-29 15:09:26 <t7> wow
 403 2012-03-29 15:09:51 <t7> 11,398 trillion a second?
 404 2012-03-29 15:09:55 <sipa> yes
 405 2012-03-29 15:11:31 <t7> i wonder how many computers at work run opencl
 406 2012-03-29 15:11:54 <sipa> i think most is done by dedicated miners
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 423 2012-03-29 15:29:51 <t7> sipa do i hash the getwork 'data' as ab=n ascii string?
 424 2012-03-29 15:30:02 <sipa> no
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 426 2012-03-29 15:32:13 <sipa> t7: it's a weird hex encoding
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 430 2012-03-29 15:42:50 <t7> ah theres a python miner in the git repo :)
 431 2012-03-29 15:42:58 <t7> i can translate that
 432 2012-03-29 15:45:12 <t7> how many calculations are needed to calculate a hash on avg? is that number known?
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 434 2012-03-29 15:47:30 <sipa> difficulty * 2^48 / 65535
 435 2012-03-29 15:47:43 <sipa> so currently:
 436 2012-03-29 15:47:51 <sipa> ;;calc [bc,diff] * 2^48 / 65535
 437 2012-03-29 15:48:03 <sipa> ;;calc [bc,diff] * 2**48 / 65535
 438 2012-03-29 15:48:11 <sipa> hello, gribble?
 439 2012-03-29 15:48:15 <gribble> Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
 440 2012-03-29 15:48:18 <t7> no i mean x86 instructions
 441 2012-03-29 15:48:21 <gribble> 6986100606938533
 442 2012-03-29 15:48:37 <t7> then i can work out the speed of the bitcoin network :]
 443 2012-03-29 15:48:42 <gribble> Math is hard. Lets go shopping!
 444 2012-03-29 15:48:48 <sipa> no, you don't know what hardware it consists of
 445 2012-03-29 15:48:56 <sipa> and it sure as hell isn't mostly x86
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 450 2012-03-29 15:49:31 <sipa> it's around 1000 x86 instructions, i assume
 451 2012-03-29 15:49:36 <sipa> roughly
 452 2012-03-29 15:50:16 <t7> must be more!?
 453 2012-03-29 15:51:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: well the simd ones have throughput that high, but it's actually more instructions (it just does four at once)
 454 2012-03-29 15:52:07 <helo> t7: it's probably more sensical to look at "work=...." in debug.log, and take that as the number of hashes the bitcoin network has done
 455 2012-03-29 15:53:12 <helo> t7: for example, currently it is enough to have brute-forced all 11-character passwords (that use double-sha256)
 456 2012-03-29 15:53:42 <t7> wow
 457 2012-03-29 15:53:43 <helo> at least that is my favorite bitcoin stat :)
 458 2012-03-29 15:54:34 <helo> if each character can be any of 72 different values (lower, upper, numbers, 10 symbols)
 459 2012-03-29 15:55:09 <t7> home time
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 461 2012-03-29 15:55:46 <sipa> and within 4 months it will have done enough work for all 12-character alphabetical passwords
 462 2012-03-29 15:55:54 <sipa> at the current difficulty
 463 2012-03-29 15:57:00 <gmaxwell> The password bruteforcing comparisons are a bit unfortunate, since they play into the common misconception that bitcoin is actually bruteforcing passwords.
 464 2012-03-29 15:57:56 <sipa> let's try to compare with the number of computations seti@home has done in its history
 465 2012-03-29 15:58:07 <sipa> though that's floating-point operations
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 468 2012-03-29 16:07:48 <sipa> gavinandresen: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/c8b1bd8657cfc1b04dec2bd0461b3ace0b2a16e2
 469 2012-03-29 16:08:00 <sipa> benchmarked at 31 minutes, with max 12 10M logfiles
 470 2012-03-29 16:09:36 <sipa> the lower max_lg_bsize doesn't seem to matter
 471 2012-03-29 16:10:33 <gmaxwell> was "max 12 10M logfiles" with the lower max_lg_bsize, and you're saying it didn't hurt performance?
 472 2012-03-29 16:11:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes
 473 2012-03-29 16:11:43 <sipa> at least, 1M or 10M max_lg_bsize doesn't matter (i guess OS write cache completely takes over where bdb stops)
 474 2012-03-29 16:12:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's not the same as lg_max (the size of the log files)
 475 2012-03-29 16:12:56 <gmaxwell> ah. indeed, I was confusing the two.
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 478 2012-03-29 16:14:07 <sipa> gavinandresen: (it depends on your pullreq 1007)
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 483 2012-03-29 16:18:08 <gmaxwell> It looks like there is going to be pretty awesome chain splitting on the first. I wish we already had 0.5.4/0.6.0 out and widely deployed.
 484 2012-03-29 16:19:08 supson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 485 2012-03-29 16:22:59 <copumpkin> oh?
 486 2012-03-29 16:23:31 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: why are you saying oh?
 487 2012-03-29 16:23:39 <copumpkin> oh about the chain splitting
 488 2012-03-29 16:23:44 <copumpkin> just wanted more information :)
 489 2012-03-29 16:24:08 <gmaxwell> There is still a goodly amount of hash power without p2sh enforcement. They'll be willing to mine invalid transactions and their blocks will get orphaned.
 490 2012-03-29 16:24:39 <gmaxwell> (I think it's safe to assume that someone will happily supply them with eligible transactions)
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 492 2012-03-29 16:25:07 <lh77> whats chainsplitting?
 493 2012-03-29 16:26:00 <gmaxwell> when mined blocks don't form a single linear chain due to blocks being orphaned.
 494 2012-03-29 16:26:07 <gmaxwell> It happens all the time in small amounts.
 495 2012-03-29 16:26:11 <helo> lh77: when one group of bitcoin nodes disagree with another about what is valid, they go off on their own forks of events
 496 2012-03-29 16:26:47 <lh77> oh
 497 2012-03-29 16:26:50 <lh77> that doesnt sound good
 498 2012-03-29 16:27:16 <gmaxwell> helo: these forks aren't permanent. the split nodes will graft back on at the next block.
 499 2012-03-29 16:27:44 <gmaxwell> (or, rather, when the majority chain overtakes them)
 500 2012-03-29 16:27:46 <helo> as long as the majority of the miners are updated and know which is correct, everything will be ok
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 502 2012-03-29 16:27:57 <gmaxwell> Right, thats not in question.
 503 2012-03-29 16:28:25 <copumpkin> a temporary blocktree
 504 2012-03-29 16:28:49 <gmaxwell> But basically a fifth of blocks starting the 1st are going to be dead, which may be confusing to users who aren't running software that knows to ignore them.
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 534 2012-03-29 17:23:32 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'm not sure counting transactions is worth it... seems to me checkpointing every 5 minutes aught to be fine.  Also: can we remove the special-case code for addr.dat now that CAddrMan isn't constantly writing to addr.dat?
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 546 2012-03-29 17:44:40 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened pull request 1008 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1008>
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 551 2012-03-29 18:05:06 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened pull request 1009 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1009>
 552 2012-03-29 18:05:52 <luke-jr> …
 553 2012-03-29 18:06:14 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I think it's safe to assume you can bump the rc without a pullreq :p
 554 2012-03-29 18:06:45 <gavinandresen> but it's not safe to assume I'll actually REMEMBER to do it without  a pullreq
 555 2012-03-29 18:06:48 andytoshi has joined
 556 2012-03-29 18:07:00 <luke-jr> heh
 557 2012-03-29 18:08:24 <gavinandresen> sipa: can I get an ack on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1008  ?  And does the blkindex.dat txn_checkpoint code need changing for good performance, or can we get away with it as-is for 0.6 ?
 558 2012-03-29 18:10:13 <gavinandresen> lazy sipa out eating dinner or having fun or something.....  we mustn't have any of that!
 559 2012-03-29 18:11:18 <kinlo> :p
 560 2012-03-29 18:11:52 <t7> which company runs bitcoin? google or microsoft?
 561 2012-03-29 18:12:12 * copumpkin slaps t7
 562 2012-03-29 18:12:22 <t7> :)
 563 2012-03-29 18:12:57 <gavinandresen> didn't you hear? bitcoin is secretly run by the NSA, they're building a big mining operation in Utah
 564 2012-03-29 18:13:18 <t7> NSA are the 15% of blocks without tx
 565 2012-03-29 18:13:46 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: its not in utah though
 566 2012-03-29 18:13:48 <Diablo-D3> er
 567 2012-03-29 18:13:52 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit.
 568 2012-03-29 18:14:21 <kinlo> Stick to the coverstory people :)
 569 2012-03-29 18:14:27 <gavinandresen> Hmm?  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/28/nsa-dismisses-claims-utah-data-center-watches-average-americans/
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 573 2012-03-29 18:17:13 <gmaxwell> those hangs on erase are scarry. :(
 574 2012-03-29 18:17:24 <gavinandresen> agreed
 575 2012-03-29 18:19:19 <gavinandresen> If we had a dedicated QA team I'd ask them to test more failure scenarios; turning off power, corrupting a disk sector or two...
 576 2012-03-29 18:19:47 <t7> il do it for x btc
 577 2012-03-29 18:19:57 <gavinandresen> But, then again, I already know we do a lousy job of backing up the critical data, and we're probably better off making that better
 578 2012-03-29 18:19:58 <t7> where x > 0
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 580 2012-03-29 18:22:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: the bdb stuff is brittle enough that it's almost not worth testing. E.g. deleting the db log files will (sometimes) make your wallet unreadable, even if you haven't generated a new key in months.
 581 2012-03-29 18:24:25 <gavinandresen> That's exactly the type of thing a good QA team would keep track of (keep the datadir so we can reproduce, etc)
 582 2012-03-29 18:24:56 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: werent you the one saying you didnt want to move off bdb for wallets?
 583 2012-03-29 18:25:25 <gavinandresen> Moving off too often means "lets swap this known set of problems for another unknown set of problems."
 584 2012-03-29 18:25:38 <Diablo-D3> known unknowns
 585 2012-03-29 18:25:45 <Diablo-D3> or unknown unknowns?
 586 2012-03-29 18:26:26 <zooko> I wrestled bdb into submission one time.
 587 2012-03-29 18:26:38 <zooko> The layers and layers of error recovery that I implemented were ridiculous.
 588 2012-03-29 18:26:39 <gavinandresen> what was the secret?
 589 2012-03-29 18:26:40 <gmaxwell> In that particular example it's not even an unexpected behavior. We have writes to the wallet which are unrelated to keys, and it's a known/documented/expected behavior that after an unclean shutdown deleting the logs will make BDB unable to open the database.
 590 2012-03-29 18:27:13 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 591 2012-03-29 18:27:19 <gmaxwell> It doesn't help that a lot of people (and shutdown scripts) kill -9 bitcoin because it often takes forever to shut down.
 592 2012-03-29 18:27:51 <gavinandresen> I actually have a private branch that tries to make shutdown much faster....
 593 2012-03-29 18:27:54 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: fair enough, still moving onto something that we can more easily control with fewer unknown...
 594 2012-03-29 18:28:02 <gavinandresen> (switching all our threads to use boost::thread)
 595 2012-03-29 18:28:06 <zooko> gavinandresen: the only reason I considered it even vaguely okay
 596 2012-03-29 18:28:46 <t7> Diablo-D3: you cant know about an unknown unknown
 597 2012-03-29 18:28:52 <zooko> was that the loss of the db was not fatal -- I could, at a cost of grinding the hard drive for a few hours -- reconstruct the db if it died.
 598 2012-03-29 18:29:00 <gavinandresen> zooko: open source code?  Can I look at it?
 599 2012-03-29 18:29:01 <Diablo-D3> t7: you can know they exist, however'
 600 2012-03-29 18:29:03 <zooko> Therefore, I just had all sorts of double-checks to detect corruption of the db and blow it away.
 601 2012-03-29 18:29:11 <t7> unless we are talking about known unknown unknowns
 602 2012-03-29 18:29:14 <zooko> gavinandresen: ancient and crufty -- I'm embarassed -- but yes.
 603 2012-03-29 18:29:15 <zooko> Let's see...
 604 2012-03-29 18:29:20 <zooko> Actually that wasn't open sourced damn.
 605 2012-03-29 18:29:24 <Diablo-D3> it only makes them known unknowns when you know what it is you dont know
 606 2012-03-29 18:29:32 <t7> Diablo-D3: how can you know they exist
 607 2012-03-29 18:29:35 <Diablo-D3> but you know there are unknown unknowns out there
 608 2012-03-29 18:29:40 <t7> if you did they are known unknowns
 609 2012-03-29 18:29:43 <Diablo-D3> you simply dont know everything, that is a known unknown
 610 2012-03-29 18:29:52 <t7> you dont know that
 611 2012-03-29 18:30:05 <gavinandresen> It IS darn tempting to switch to sqlite, and maybe a flat-file for private keys.....
 612 2012-03-29 18:30:06 <Diablo-D3> well, _I_ dont know that because I really do know everything
 613 2012-03-29 18:30:14 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: DO IT
 614 2012-03-29 18:30:15 <Diablo-D3> DO
 615 2012-03-29 18:30:15 <Diablo-D3> IT
 616 2012-03-29 18:30:17 <Diablo-D3> DO IT
 617 2012-03-29 18:30:21 <Diablo-D3> DOOOOOooOooOooOooOoooOO EEEEEEEEEeeeeEeeEEeeeeeEEeeeET
 618 2012-03-29 18:30:35 <t7> is sqlite in-memory?
 619 2012-03-29 18:30:42 <zooko> gavinandresen: I'm sorry, I don't have it.
 620 2012-03-29 18:30:48 <gavinandresen> zooko: no problem
 621 2012-03-29 18:30:50 <zooko> Most of it would probably not be relevant to you.
 622 2012-03-29 18:30:58 <zooko> A lot of it had to do with the Python wrappers to bsddb.
 623 2012-03-29 18:31:02 <zooko> I recommend sqlite.
 624 2012-03-29 18:31:15 <zooko> Do you know that they allegedly have branch-level 100% code coverage of their tests?
 625 2012-03-29 18:31:25 <kinlo> I think a seperate file with an extreamly simple key/value store mapping pub/privkeys would guarantee that you dont loose coins ever
 626 2012-03-29 18:31:42 Someguy123[afk] is now known as Someguy123
 627 2012-03-29 18:31:44 <kinlo> If you'd make that file append only....
 628 2012-03-29 18:31:50 <Diablo-D3> sqlite can be in memory
 629 2012-03-29 18:32:11 <t7> and disk backed?
 630 2012-03-29 18:32:16 <kinlo> That could be a plain text file too
 631 2012-03-29 18:32:16 <gavinandresen> kinlo: then you're all set until your hard disk catches on fire.
 632 2012-03-29 18:32:20 <t7> i mean does the whole db have to live in memory?
 633 2012-03-29 18:32:28 <zooko> We implemented a simple flat file for something in Tahoe-LAFS, and later I adjusted some of the arithmetic calculating where the boundary of one part and the next part lay, and thus introduced one of the few security bugs that we've shipped in Tahoe-LAFS.
 634 2012-03-29 18:32:29 <gavinandresen> or a couple sectors in the middle go bad or or or
 635 2012-03-29 18:32:47 <zooko> I later concluded that I should avoid doing arithmetic which is necessary to keep more-sensitive stuff apart from less-sensitive stuff, and should instead consider using sqlite if it fits.
 636 2012-03-29 18:32:50 <kinlo> gavinandresen: You need to backup it ofcourse but it wont go corrupt
 637 2012-03-29 18:32:51 <Diablo-D3> fuck, tahoe
 638 2012-03-29 18:33:01 * Diablo-D3 should write his own fucking parallel distributed fs
 639 2012-03-29 18:33:15 <gavinandresen> .... and D3 goes back on my ignore list....
 640 2012-03-29 18:33:32 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: what the fuck dude
 641 2012-03-29 18:33:34 <kinlo> If it's one key per line you can always recover it with a text editor
 642 2012-03-29 18:33:49 * Diablo-D3 ponders starting a vote of no confidence on gavinandresen 
 643 2012-03-29 18:34:23 <zooko> So what is the proximate issue which is forcing y'all to think about local storage design?
 644 2012-03-29 18:34:35 <Diablo-D3> zooko: it needs to work.
 645 2012-03-29 18:34:36 <zooko> Is it the block chain, including log of all transactions, getting too big?
 646 2012-03-29 18:34:53 <Diablo-D3> and libbdb needs to stop being badly designed
 647 2012-03-29 18:35:14 <Diablo-D3> and my HN karma is now above 1200. Fuck yeah.
 648 2012-03-29 18:35:34 <gavinandresen> Unclean shutdowns leading to failures at startup are the big issue
 649 2012-03-29 18:35:41 <zooko> Yeah, nowadays I would consider using bsddb only if it were a cache -- not a canonical storage the loss of which would be unrecoverable -- and if it fit the "key - value" paradigm really well.
 650 2012-03-29 18:35:42 <gmaxwell> zooko: no, it's libdb being unreliable and scarry, especially related to wallet data— it's also the differences between our requirements for wallet data and the chain data.
 651 2012-03-29 18:35:47 <zooko> And even then I think I'd try sqlite first. :-)
 652 2012-03-29 18:35:47 <gavinandresen> The smaller is annoying bdb version incompatibility
 653 2012-03-29 18:36:00 <zooko> gavinandresen: ah, yeah, that's a trouble.
 654 2012-03-29 18:36:09 <Diablo-D3> and thus, my comment about bad design
 655 2012-03-29 18:36:25 <zooko> I think I had some horrible hacks of doing my own two-phase commit *on top* of bsddb's by cp'ing the file before opening it and later relinking it or something. Ha
 656 2012-03-29 18:36:36 <zooko> Fortunately time has relieved my mind of having to remember the gory details.
 657 2012-03-29 18:37:01 <Diablo-D3> zooko: except bdb uses transaction integrity files
 658 2012-03-29 18:37:05 <Diablo-D3> outside of the db
 659 2012-03-29 18:37:12 <zooko> Yes, I remember that now that you mention it.
 660 2012-03-29 18:37:42 <zooko> If you change the local storage format in the mainline client, will you have to provide a function to transfer all the data over to the new format?
 661 2012-03-29 18:37:57 <zooko> I guess that makes sense. And extract the keys?
 662 2012-03-29 18:38:05 <gavinandresen> yup
 663 2012-03-29 18:39:09 <gavinandresen> wouldn't (probably) need to decrypt the keys, so that shouldn't be hard to do in an external little utility
 664 2012-03-29 18:39:42 * zooko nods.
 665 2012-03-29 18:39:55 <gavinandresen> But it's not clear to me that it is a big enough problem to be first or second or fifth on the priority list.
 666 2012-03-29 18:40:10 <zooko> Okay, so what needs to be stored: keys, and the entire history of blockchain including transactions? And, if this is a miner, floating transactions?
 667 2012-03-29 18:40:41 <jgarzik> block chain.  wallet.  addresses on P2P network.
 668 2012-03-29 18:40:42 <gavinandresen> We already store the blockchain data in a flat-file.  blkindex.dat stores indices into that flat-file.
 669 2012-03-29 18:40:44 <jgarzik> and indices
 670 2012-03-29 18:41:04 <kinlo> Transactions...
 671 2012-03-29 18:41:08 <gavinandresen> (actually, blockchain data is a series of at-most-2GB flat files, we just have one so far)
 672 2012-03-29 18:41:34 <jgarzik> memory pool transactions are not stored
 673 2012-03-29 18:41:44 <jgarzik> only completed blocks (w/ transactions)
 674 2012-03-29 18:41:49 barmstrong has joined
 675 2012-03-29 18:42:46 <kinlo> But client-made transactions that are not yet confirmed on the network are stored too right?
 676 2012-03-29 18:42:53 <gavinandresen> just in memory
 677 2012-03-29 18:43:04 <gavinandresen> unless they're your own
 678 2012-03-29 18:43:19 <kinlo> Your own yes
 679 2012-03-29 18:43:37 <gavinandresen> Yes, transactions involving you are stored in wallet.dat
 680 2012-03-29 18:44:27 <kinlo> I've seen problems with that, transactions with not enough fees never getting confirmed and locking people out not being able to spend those coins
 681 2012-03-29 18:45:04 <gavinandresen> The moral to that story is: don't hack the fee policy if you don't know what you're doing...
 682 2012-03-29 18:45:15 <kinlo> True for now
 683 2012-03-29 18:45:31 <gavinandresen> (now jgarzik is going to say how he proposed fixing that a long time ago.... :)
 684 2012-03-29 18:45:53 <kinlo> Perhaps not if the free block part is difficult to get into
 685 2012-03-29 18:46:28 <gmaxwell> It'll always be true— there will be some kinds of transactions which will always go nowhere, if you modify your client you allow them you're going to have issues— end of story. The space of safe changes may grow, but changing things requires some clue.
 686 2012-03-29 18:46:49 <kinlo> True
 687 2012-03-29 18:47:26 <gavinandresen> But there probably aught to be a failsafe "failed transaction" mode, where if your txn doesn't get into a block in X days the client assumes it will never get in, and un-spends the inputs.
 688 2012-03-29 18:47:59 <gmaxwell> Indeed, but bumping into that will still make you have a bad day. :)
 689 2012-03-29 18:48:24 <gavinandresen> yup, which is why that isn't first or fifth or eleventh on the priority list either
 690 2012-03-29 18:49:21 riush has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 691 2012-03-29 18:49:32 <zooko> So "wallet" is a set of private keys?
 692 2012-03-29 18:49:56 riush has joined
 693 2012-03-29 18:49:56 riush has quit (Changing host)
 694 2012-03-29 18:49:56 riush has joined
 695 2012-03-29 18:50:19 <kinlo> much more, own transactions, accounts...
 696 2012-03-29 18:50:23 <gmaxwell> zooko: more than that— private keys, some user configured settings from the GUI, and your own sent/recieved transactions, address to account mappings, transactions comments.
 697 2012-03-29 18:50:23 Nitrousoxide1 has joined
 698 2012-03-29 18:50:26 <zooko> What are "accounts"?
 699 2012-03-29 18:50:34 <zooko> Ah.
 700 2012-03-29 18:50:38 <zooko> address to account mappings.
 701 2012-03-29 18:50:40 <zooko> Huh.
 702 2012-03-29 18:50:43 <gmaxwell> zooko: locally significant bookkeeping.
 703 2012-03-29 18:50:46 <kinlo> yes
 704 2012-03-29 18:51:08 <zooko> So, I hope I'm not saying a bunch of obvious and/or obviously-wrong things, but if I were starting on this I would first think about putting more-sensitive stuff in a separate file from less-sensitive stuff.
 705 2012-03-29 18:51:09 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: GUI settings are outside the wallet now
 706 2012-03-29 18:51:11 <gmaxwell> E.g. you can assign addresses to be MoneyFromZooko and then the client will keep track of how much btc is assigned to that account.
 707 2012-03-29 18:51:20 <zooko> So I would probably start by putting private keys and only private keys in one sqlite db file.
 708 2012-03-29 18:51:43 <luke-jr> zooko: you can encrypt private keys
 709 2012-03-29 18:51:44 <zooko> Then, maybe keep using the block chain flat file -- unless there's reason to think it is all by itself a problem -- and replace the bsddb index to it with a sqlite index to it.
 710 2012-03-29 18:51:45 <kinlo> i would make that plaintext
 711 2012-03-29 18:51:49 <zooko> Then benchmark. :-)
 712 2012-03-29 18:52:02 <luke-jr> zooko: sqlite isn't known for performance…
 713 2012-03-29 18:52:15 <zooko> luke-jr: I'm willing to bet it is good enough.
 714 2012-03-29 18:52:25 <luke-jr> it's also SQL
 715 2012-03-29 18:52:29 <luke-jr> there's no reason to use SQL
 716 2012-03-29 18:52:35 <kinlo> for wallet data it should be
 717 2012-03-29 18:52:41 <gmaxwell> I can't even express how horrible I think that all sounds.
 718 2012-03-29 18:52:41 <zooko> In fact, I'll bet 10ⓑ that it is within 2% of the bsddb version. :-)
 719 2012-03-29 18:52:56 <zooko> gmaxwell: try! I'd be interested to hear it.
 720 2012-03-29 18:52:56 <gmaxwell> Switching one enormous chunk of unauditable code for another is not a win.
 721 2012-03-29 18:53:06 <zooko> That's a good argument.
 722 2012-03-29 18:53:08 <luke-jr> zooko: um, 2% improvement wouldn't be worth it, and 2% worse is worse
 723 2012-03-29 18:53:39 <zooko> gmaxwell: I myself conservatively stuck with bsddb far too long, then went through a phase of "I'll do my own flat files thank you very much", and just now I'm finally coming around to using sqlite for at least some things.
 724 2012-03-29 18:54:01 <gmaxwell> Especially for key management— which is basically append only, fixed size records, entirely in memory during use.
 725 2012-03-29 18:54:04 <zooko> luke-jr: that's also a good argument. If there were something a lot like sqlite but without SQL, I would consider that, too.
 726 2012-03-29 18:54:10 user has joined
 727 2012-03-29 18:54:20 <zooko> gmaxwell: yeah, that one could definitely be a flat file.
 728 2012-03-29 18:54:29 <gmaxwell> ::nods::
 729 2012-03-29 18:54:35 <zooko> On the other hand, it could also work as a sqlite file. The fact that it imposes such light requirements makes it work fine with either.
 730 2012-03-29 18:55:09 <kinlo> the keys file is the single most important file, the rest one can just redownload
 731 2012-03-29 18:55:56 <kinlo> so i'd go for a simple file format that is less prone to corruption
 732 2012-03-29 18:56:00 <gmaxwell> zooko: but then we have issues like the wallet encryption bug— bdb makes it basically impossible to reliably delete data in its databases, doesn't disclosed this fact— and solving it be deleting the whole database was problematic because closing and reopening was making it crash.
 733 2012-03-29 18:56:16 <zooko> gmaxwell: yeah, good point.
 734 2012-03-29 18:56:32 <zooko> So it was cleartext keys stored in the bsddb from the previous release that was the source of the leak?
 735 2012-03-29 18:56:50 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 736 2012-03-29 18:56:58 <zooko> kinlo: what I've recently learned is that my own flat files, while less prone to corruption than bsddb files, are not immune to corruption. :-)
 737 2012-03-29 18:57:14 <zooko> I.e., I wrote a bug in the handling of mine.
 738 2012-03-29 18:57:32 <kinlo> zooko: that's why i'd go for append only
 739 2012-03-29 18:57:33 <gmaxwell> as far as the rest of the usage— thats less concerning except bugs/unexpected behavior there leak into the distributed algorithim.
 740 2012-03-29 18:57:44 <gmaxwell> kinlo: thats still not a magical cureall.
 741 2012-03-29 18:57:53 <kinlo> ofcourse not
 742 2012-03-29 18:58:06 <kinlo> but a good start
 743 2012-03-29 18:58:37 <zooko> kinlo: yeah, it sounds like the private keys file would be even simpler than the flat files that I managed to screw up.
 744 2012-03-29 18:58:52 <zooko> Another option is to rely on the filesystem -- a different file for each private key.
 745 2012-03-29 18:59:20 <zooko> Might cause a problem with performance if people start using more than 10,000 private keys in one process.
 746 2012-03-29 18:59:43 <gmaxwell> zooko: encourages footgunning. E.g. doing things like removing keys you've spent from creating negative balances and all kinds of other untested and potentially untestable cornercases.
 747 2012-03-29 18:59:43 <kinlo> zooko: afaik they are loaded into ram every startup
 748 2012-03-29 18:59:46 <gavinandresen> That starts to get to the "bitcoin core is too many things to too many people" problem
 749 2012-03-29 18:59:58 <gavinandresen> (merchants and miners and end-users have very different requirements)
 750 2012-03-29 19:00:02 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 751 2012-03-29 19:00:19 <kinlo> sequential reading is fastest anyway if you need all
 752 2012-03-29 19:01:03 <zooko> IMHO bsddb is a bad choice for storing priv keys, flat files and sqlite are both good choices, and keeping priv keys separate from everything of lesser sensitivity is wise.
 753 2012-03-29 19:02:31 <gavinandresen> zooko:  agreed.  Although I suspect we'll be moving away from lots of private keys and towards "deterministic wallets"
 754 2012-03-29 19:02:48 pusle has quit ()
 755 2012-03-29 19:03:29 <zooko> gavinandresen: ah, that's interesting.
 756 2012-03-29 19:03:53 <gavinandresen> ... mostly because backing up lots of private keys becomes an issue pretty quickly.
 757 2012-03-29 19:04:01 <zooko> If you're not going to be handing out individual private keys to someone else, then you might as well just remember a single secret and deterministically generate any private key you need from that.
 758 2012-03-29 19:04:26 <gmaxwell> Where is sipa's spec?
 759 2012-03-29 19:04:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: of?
 760 2012-03-29 19:04:46 <gmaxwell> zooko: we're looking at being a bit smarter than that, in fact.
 761 2012-03-29 19:05:04 <kinlo> deterministic keys
 762 2012-03-29 19:05:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: the lastest determinstic wallet stuff, you should show it to zooko.
 763 2012-03-29 19:05:13 <zooko> Intriguing!
 764 2012-03-29 19:05:16 <zooko> I love that stuff.
 765 2012-03-29 19:05:34 <sipa> https://gist.github.com/1799467
 766 2012-03-29 19:05:37 <sipa> it's WIP
 767 2012-03-29 19:05:47 <gmaxwell> zooko: What we'll probably be doing allows the public keys to be generated independantly of the private keys. E.g. so you could give a third party (or an untrusted web server) the ability to generate public keys fr you.
 768 2012-03-29 19:05:55 <gmaxwell> s/fr/for/
 769 2012-03-29 19:06:09 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 1010 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1010>
 770 2012-03-29 19:06:41 <zooko> gmaxwell: what? That's crazy talk.
 771 2012-03-29 19:06:53 <zooko> Do you know about Identity-Based Encryption? Crazy talk. :-)
 772 2012-03-29 19:07:13 <gmaxwell> I know about identity based encryption. But this is simpler. :)
 773 2012-03-29 19:08:16 <sipa> note that sections 0, 1 and 2 are already "rewritten", while sections 3, 2, 3 aren't yet :)
 774 2012-03-29 19:08:19 <zooko> Well I look forward to learning about your insane impossible perpetual motion machine.
 775 2012-03-29 19:08:35 * zooko leaves that gist open in a tab...
 776 2012-03-29 19:08:41 <gavinandresen> We've got a car that runs on nothing but seawater, too!
 777 2012-03-29 19:08:46 * zooko laughs
 778 2012-03-29 19:08:53 <sipa> zooko: it's a bit inconsistent, but all is explained there
 779 2012-03-29 19:09:11 <zooko> The whole idea of Bitcoin is something that I struggled to invent for about 12 years, and had started to think it was impossible.
 780 2012-03-29 19:09:22 <zooko> So, it's a wonderful feeling of possibilities opening up, to see it actually work.
 781 2012-03-29 19:09:36 <zooko> I wish I could remember exactly what Mark S. Miller said along those lines.
 782 2012-03-29 19:10:35 <gavinandresen> sipa gmaxwell jgarzik : I'm going to pull 1008 1009 and 1010, tag a rc6, and start gitian-building.....
 783 2012-03-29 19:10:49 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: ACK
 784 2012-03-29 19:11:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: ACK
 785 2012-03-29 19:11:48 <sipa> eh, gavinandresen
 786 2012-03-29 19:14:16 <gavinandresen> * [new tag]         v0.6.0rc6 -> v0.6.0rc6
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 788 2012-03-29 19:15:48 <gavinandresen> zooko: You might also be interested in 2-party escrow design I'm working on:  https://gist.github.com/830ca16758fb9ad496d7
 789 2012-03-29 19:17:52 <zooko> gavinandresen: sounds great!
 790 2012-03-29 19:18:03 <zooko> gavinandresen: I'm really excited about the "ripped certificates" that you and I talked about.
 791 2012-03-29 19:18:17 <zooko> If I understand correctly, Silk Road is offering an escrow service for fee.
 792 2012-03-29 19:18:46 <zooko> Not to imply any approval or other moral judgment about their product, but I imagine that ripped certificates could replace *any* escrow service with a no-trusted-third-party, cheap, reliable substitute.
 793 2012-03-29 19:18:57 <helo> is lockTime currently implemented?
 794 2012-03-29 19:19:09 <gavinandresen> yes, it is
 795 2012-03-29 19:21:49 <sipa> helo: transaction replacement isn't, but nLockTime is fully enabled
 796 2012-03-29 19:21:54 <sipa> gavinandresen: building
 797 2012-03-29 19:22:32 * zooko leaves the 2-party escrow gist open in a tab...
 798 2012-03-29 19:22:41 <luke-jr> not sure about fully. isn't there something limiting it for backward compat?
 799 2012-03-29 19:23:08 <sipa> luke-jr: below a certain number it's interpreted as a block number, above a certain number it's interpreted as a timestamp
 800 2012-03-29 19:23:22 <sipa> that's all i know about it
 801 2012-03-29 19:23:52 <helo> two-party escrow is pretty neat stuff... thanks for the explanation writeup gavin
 802 2012-03-29 19:23:58 <luke-jr>     // To help v0.1.5 clients who would see it as a negative number
 803 2012-03-29 19:24:00 <gavinandresen> I'm not sure miners will accept transactions with locktime's < now into their memory pools or not, or if they'll get relayed, but that's not necessary
 804 2012-03-29 19:24:00 <luke-jr>     if ((int64)nLockTime > std::numeric_limits<int>::max())
 805 2012-03-29 19:24:01 <luke-jr>         return error("AcceptToMemoryPool() : not accepting nLockTime beyond 2038 yet");
 806 2012-03-29 19:24:38 <luke-jr> hmm, I wonder if that even works considering the int64 cast will make it signed
 807 2012-03-29 19:25:06 <sipa> hey, didn't we already break compatibility with pre-v0.2.10 clients?
 808 2012-03-29 19:25:17 <luke-jr> sipa: :D
 809 2012-03-29 19:25:37 <gavinandresen> cool, more code we can remove.
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 811 2012-03-29 19:29:13 <gavinandresen> hmmm... RCC: Error in 'src/qt/bitcoin.qrc': Cannot find file 'locale/bitcoin_he.qm'
 812 2012-03-29 19:29:48 <gavinandresen> ah, right, need to touch bitcoin-qt.pro to get the Makefile rebuilt....
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 815 2012-03-29 19:37:50 <gavinandresen> mac build uploaded to sourceforge, halfway done with the linux gitian build....
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 817 2012-03-29 19:40:46 <user> gavinandresen: i was reading your Two-Party Escrow. Is not possible implement some situation where the two parts need to fund bitcoin?
 818 2012-03-29 19:43:31 <gavinandresen> user: you mean have both the buyer and seller commit coins, like is proposed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33615.msg421527#msg421527
 819 2012-03-29 19:43:52 <user> yes. will read
 820 2012-03-29 19:44:16 <zooko> gavinandresen: do you know about Dominant Assurance Contracts?
 821 2012-03-29 19:45:43 <gavinandresen> zooko:  no, but there's a nice short description at http://p2pfoundation.net/Dominant_Assurance_Contract
 822 2012-03-29 19:46:26 <zooko> Heh heh. p2pfoundation.net are freaks.
 823 2012-03-29 19:46:33 * zooko reads
 824 2012-03-29 19:47:17 <zooko> gavinandresen: it is an idea that has great potential, has never been tried, and good escrow/ripped-certs in Bitcoin might make it very easy to try it using Bitcoin.
 825 2012-03-29 19:47:30 <zooko> Without that sort of tech, it can still be tried using Bitcoin by relying on a trusted escrow agent.
 826 2012-03-29 19:48:21 <copumpkin> do any forum admins hang out in here, other than Maged and theymos? I wanted to ask for an account whitelist
 827 2012-03-29 19:48:40 <Blitzboom> gavinandresen = admin
 828 2012-03-29 19:50:15 <gavinandresen> zooko:  I'm a big fan of crowdfunding, especially now it is going to become more legal.
 829 2012-03-29 19:50:52 <gavinandresen> zooko: I wonder if dominance assurance contracts would run into legal trouble if people used it as a form of gambling/investing....
 830 2012-03-29 19:51:22 <gavinandresen> (I'm thinking of people gambling that projects will NOT get funded so they'd get more back than they put in)
 831 2012-03-29 19:55:45 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ACK
 832 2012-03-29 19:57:49 <gmaxwell> I think gambling usually only runs into legal trouble when it victimizes the poor and unwary ... we seem to be perfectly happy with securities markets, parts of which are pretty much pure gambling— though I suppose they are somewhat heavily regulated.
 833 2012-03-29 19:59:39 <kinlo> gmaxwell: it's also too difficult to start with to be attractive for the weaker minds
 834 2012-03-29 19:59:45 <kinlo> iek
 835 2012-03-29 20:01:17 <BTC_Bear> Does it victimize the poor when they WIN $500,000,000 Million ?
 836 2012-03-29 20:01:56 <BTC_Bear> btw: >70% of winners are quick picks.
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 840 2012-03-29 20:11:12 <gavinandresen> sipa: just pushed my rc6 gitian.sigs
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 842 2012-03-29 20:14:19 <zooko> gavinandresen: I'm not an expert on the relevant laws, but one important difference between dominant assurance contracts and "gambling" is whether there is an explicit element of chance -- i.e. random lotto numbers, die rolls, and whether there is an element of skill.
 843 2012-03-29 20:14:34 <zooko> From that perspective, dominant assurance contracts don't look much like gambling.
 844 2012-03-29 20:14:49 <zooko> However, I don't have confidence that actual laws, much less regulations, much less police, interpret things the way I do. :-(
 845 2012-03-29 20:15:00 <gavinandresen> zooko: agreed.
 846 2012-03-29 20:15:10 <zooko> Because the same argument tells you that Idea Futures are also not gambling. :-/
 847 2012-03-29 20:15:12 <gavinandresen> zooko:  I think we need more prediction markets, too....
 848 2012-03-29 20:15:26 <zooko> Exactly!
 849 2012-03-29 20:15:39 <zooko> And those have definitely been chilled out of business inthe USA by the gambling regs. :-(
 850 2012-03-29 20:15:59 <gavinandresen> Yup.  Happily the Internet isn't a US-only thing
 851 2012-03-29 20:16:06 * zooko nods
 852 2012-03-29 20:16:13 <gavinandresen> ... and I think things will change here over time.
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 854 2012-03-29 20:17:01 <gmaxwell> (Idea-futures have basically the same gambling problem that securities markets have— they're one part gambling, one part actually economically productive work, and it's impossible to distinguish the part—— but securities markets have the advantage of being well established and supported by powerful entities, ironically ones that make a lot of money from the gambling component)
 855 2012-03-29 20:17:38 <zooko> gmaxwell: good point.
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 857 2012-03-29 20:18:22 <Diablo-D3> yes, but its still gambling
 858 2012-03-29 20:18:24 <Diablo-D3> its a boolean state
 859 2012-03-29 20:18:31 <Diablo-D3> if its even 0.1% gambling, its still gambling
 860 2012-03-29 20:18:34 <gmaxwell> zooko: I was really hoping to make some coin on the mispricing of skein on bets of bitcoin, but it seems that people with access to bitcoin are less irrationally exuberant for skein than the general public!
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 862 2012-03-29 20:19:01 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well, its even better
 863 2012-03-29 20:19:08 <Diablo-D3> everyone in bitcoin land can use the predictinator
 864 2012-03-29 20:19:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: you ought to expand your snakeoil business to also predict bets of bitcoin outcomes.
 865 2012-03-29 20:20:01 <Diablo-D3> I make no money off predictinator.
 866 2012-03-29 20:22:07 <gmaxwell> Yet.
 867 2012-03-29 20:22:50 <iz> a bitcoin futures market for sports teams :b
 868 2012-03-29 20:24:25 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: davout opened issue 1011 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1011>
 869 2012-03-29 20:25:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well, the problem is
 870 2012-03-29 20:25:30 <Diablo-D3> its very accurate.
 871 2012-03-29 20:30:32 <Blitzboom> can you also make 60d and 90d predictions?
 872 2012-03-29 20:30:53 <Diablo-D3> no.
 873 2012-03-29 20:30:58 <Diablo-D3> you're lucky it works at 30.
 874 2012-03-29 20:32:07 <Blitzboom> i haven’t been watching it … does it change its future projection (same 30d)?
 875 2012-03-29 20:32:18 <Blitzboom> based on daily changes
 876 2012-03-29 20:32:42 <Diablo-D3> yes
 877 2012-03-29 20:32:43 <Diablo-D3> once a day
 878 2012-03-29 20:42:09 * luke-jr ponders whether to consider DB_LOG_AUTO_REMOVE a bugfix
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 890 2012-03-29 20:55:05 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: dooglus opened issue 1012 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1012>
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 899 2012-03-29 21:16:30 <helo> http://www.rdmag.com/News/Feeds/2012/03/general-sciences-bitcoin-currency-system-offers-negative-incentive/
 900 2012-03-29 21:17:01 <helo> rather, use http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/March12/Bitcoin.html
 901 2012-03-29 21:18:45 <luke-jr> https://www.okpay.com/en/company/news/bitcoin-okpay.html
 902 2012-03-29 21:18:46 <andytoshi> helo, that article makes no sense
 903 2012-03-29 21:18:55 <andytoshi> as i recall, neither did the original study..
 904 2012-03-29 21:19:43 <gmaxwell> helo: thats just repeating the redballoons paper which— like a lot of academic work— was a beautiful snowflake in its own right, and yet totally inapplicable in reality.
 905 2012-03-29 21:19:46 <gavinandresen> the study makes sense-- there IS an incentive problem with relaying transactions.  I don't like their proposed solution, though, and it may never be a problem in practice.
 906 2012-03-29 21:20:09 wasabi2 has joined
 907 2012-03-29 21:20:11 <gmaxwell> (inapplicable in the "the soviets used a pencil" sort of sense)
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 909 2012-03-29 21:20:57 <andytoshi> in principle, there is an incentive problem, but you'd need a -lot- of people to stop relaying messages before it would be effective
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 911 2012-03-29 21:21:11 <andytoshi> so an attacker would need to put effort into modifying his node to be an asshole
 912 2012-03-29 21:21:19 <andytoshi> but probably wouldn't get any gain from it
 913 2012-03-29 21:21:30 <gmaxwell> The miners will greedily not share transactions problem, should it ever be a problem, is trivially solved by "give your transactions to many miners directly, or via a simple clearing house (miners would pay to access)"
 914 2012-03-29 21:21:42 <gavinandresen> ... and it wouldn't be hard to detect that they're being an asshole and drop their connection....
 915 2012-03-29 21:22:15 <gmaxwell> The red balloons paper proposes a system which would enormously increase the cost or relaying and processing transactions as well the cost of maintaining the blockchain.
 916 2012-03-29 21:22:18 <helo> aren't most full nodes not miners? i.e. no incentive to not forward transactions
 917 2012-03-29 21:22:31 <andytoshi> right now, yes
 918 2012-03-29 21:22:48 <andytoshi> but that's not really sustainable - even now, the blockchain takes hours for many people to download
 919 2012-03-29 21:22:59 <helo> there's not really much of an incentive to run a full node, aside from helping the network...
 920 2012-03-29 21:23:00 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: I disaggree.
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 922 2012-03-29 21:23:42 <helo> i bet there are thousands of people who would like to run a full node for that purpose alone though
 923 2012-03-29 21:23:46 <gmaxwell> It's perfectly sustainable so long as we don't increase the maximum block size (much).  Perhaps not the almost-every-user-is-a-full-node, but at least full nodes being common and drastically outnumbering miners.
 924 2012-03-29 21:24:19 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: but we need to increase the max block size eventually
 925 2012-03-29 21:24:41 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I don't see why you take that as axiomatic.
 926 2012-03-29 21:25:07 <andytoshi> having said all that, i actually like their "solution"
 927 2012-03-29 21:25:12 <gmaxwell> (there are degrees of increase too— e.g. a 10x increase would probably not totally bust decenteralization)
 928 2012-03-29 21:25:15 <andytoshi> it would be nice to incentivize all parts of running the network
 929 2012-03-29 21:25:20 <andytoshi> not just verification
 930 2012-03-29 21:25:22 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: If you like it you haven't thought it through.
 931 2012-03-29 21:25:35 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: not your fault, because they don't spell it out clearly.
 932 2012-03-29 21:25:51 <andytoshi> true, i actually hadn't heard of it until just now
 933 2012-03-29 21:26:35 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: go think about what the details of the implementation need to be in order to prevent the final miner from just unwrapping the transaction and mining all the fees to themselves.
 934 2012-03-29 21:26:43 <helo> maybe that summary is overlooking something, but just saying "we put a limit on the chain length to be sure nobody can sybil higher rewards"
 935 2012-03-29 21:26:49 <helo> seems insufficient
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 937 2012-03-29 21:27:46 <gmaxwell> helo: yea, no, it's totally insufficient— I talked to them. They know this. What they're describing can be implemented but the cost is horiffic. You basically increase transaction processing and storage costs N fold, where N is the number of hops in the chain.
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 941 2012-03-29 21:28:25 <gavinandresen> sipa: builds done?
 942 2012-03-29 21:29:16 <gmaxwell> (actually worse, it's N*M fold processing where N is the number of hops, and M is how many connections each hop has. :( )
 943 2012-03-29 21:29:19 <helo> so the appropriate response is: "Have fun implementing that system on your own chain!"
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 945 2012-03-29 21:31:24 <gmaxwell> (the implementation needs to be roughly— "you have the sender include the key of the party he relays to in his signature, and the relaying parties add the key they relay to and sign (M times). eventually this chain ends up in the blockchain and everyone can validate the right parties were credited")
 946 2012-03-29 21:32:37 <helo> yuck
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 949 2012-03-29 21:34:49 <gmaxwell> and even once you do that, their economic incentives argument only applies to tree structured relaying networks (not at all like bitcoin, in reality you're free to connect to whoever you want). I assume if I thought about it I'd conclude that your best strategy is to connect directly to known miners and maxsibyl-1 every time on your connections to them.
 950 2012-03-29 21:35:49 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: is there a reason you're not merging the stupid s/URL/URI/ fix (#987)? it'll be more painful for 0.7 since 0.6 will have used the wrong name
 951 2012-03-29 21:36:20 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: just trying to minimize code changes to critical fixes, so we actually get 0.6 out the door.
 952 2012-03-29 21:36:46 <gavinandresen> Changing "little things" like URL->URI can break things like...oh, translations... in unexpected ways
 953 2012-03-29 21:37:01 <luke-jr> it's not user-visible, but it's used for IPC filename
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 955 2012-03-29 21:37:41 <gavinandresen> IPC for the URI-opening?  That doesn't really work right now, anyway
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 957 2012-03-29 21:37:58 <gavinandresen> (I suppose drag and drop does, but does anybody actually know to do that?)
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 959 2012-03-29 21:38:22 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: oh, true enough
 960 2012-03-29 21:38:26 <luke-jr> drag & drop doesn't use IPC anyway
 961 2012-03-29 21:38:45 <luke-jr> guess that makes it painless for 0.7 then
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 966 2012-03-29 21:43:18 <helo> i get the impression that they assume evenly distributed hashing power across all bitcoin nodes
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 969 2012-03-29 21:48:13 <Cryo> seeing this on osx jhfs+ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/776
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 973 2012-03-29 21:52:08 <gavinandresen> Cryo: can you try https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.6.0/test/   and see if it is any better?
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 976 2012-03-29 21:53:11 <Cryo> after the defrag finishes, sure.
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1021 2012-03-29 23:12:04 <sipa> gavinandresen: sorry, was out for a while; linux builds done already, now doing windows builds
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1024 2012-03-29 23:18:14 <sipa> wow, the entire bitcoin git history of v0.6.0rc5 is only 5.4 MB
1025 2012-03-29 23:21:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: you can get it under 5 if you do a git repack -a -d -f -F --window=1024 --depth=256
1026 2012-03-29 23:24:27 <luke-jr> lol
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1030 2012-03-29 23:27:41 <sipa> strange, repacking the repository itself seems to influence the size of exported packs as well
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1033 2012-03-29 23:32:04 <sipa> gavinandresen: sigs pushed for 0.6.0rc6; they match
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1046 2012-03-29 23:52:11 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/v0.6.0rc6
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