1 2012-04-08 00:00:01 <[Tycho]> What inputs ?
2 2012-04-08 00:00:06 <sipa> ...
3 2012-04-08 00:00:27 <sipa> if you do a normal pay-to-pubkey-hash
4 2012-04-08 00:00:34 <luke-jr> opcode 53 is disabled
5 2012-04-08 00:00:39 <[Tycho]> Oh, NORMAL...
6 2012-04-08 00:00:46 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: no way
7 2012-04-08 00:01:08 <sipa> the scriptPubKey is [bla ADDRESS bla], scriptSig is [signature] [pubkey]
8 2012-04-08 00:01:16 <sipa> if you want to do the same in P2SH
9 2012-04-08 00:01:17 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: disabled ? http://blockexplorer.com/tx/0f24294a1d23efbb49c1765cf443fba7930702752aba6d765870082fe4f13cae#i4854451
10 2012-04-08 00:01:30 Slix` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
11 2012-04-08 00:01:46 <[Tycho]> Take six 53s in a row :)
12 2012-04-08 00:01:52 <sipa> scriptPubKey becomes [magic HASH([bla ADDRESS bla])], scriptSig becomes [signature] [pubkey] [[bla ADDRESS bla]]
13 2012-04-08 00:01:59 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I think you mean PUSH(3)
14 2012-04-08 00:02:09 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: also, 0x53 is not '3'
15 2012-04-08 00:02:17 <sipa> it is
16 2012-04-08 00:02:21 <luke-jr> no, it isn't.
17 2012-04-08 00:02:27 <[Tycho]> OP_3 is 0x53
18 2012-04-08 00:02:30 <luke-jr> it's 'S'
19 2012-04-08 00:02:38 <sipa> it's formatted as 3
20 2012-04-08 00:02:51 <sipa> yes, in ASCII it's 'S'
21 2012-04-08 00:02:51 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: check the link.
22 2012-04-08 00:02:58 <luke-jr> oh, that 3
23 2012-04-08 00:03:12 <luke-jr> nm
24 2012-04-08 00:03:23 <[Tycho]> It works as push(3)
25 2012-04-08 00:03:31 <[Tycho]> Real 4
26 2012-04-08 00:03:34 <[Tycho]> *3
27 2012-04-08 00:04:06 ab37 has left ()
28 2012-04-08 00:07:06 <[Tycho]> sipa: can you write me a P2SH address for 5357 script ?
29 2012-04-08 00:07:26 <[Tycho]> Is it 37paP4uTjmA4Pi85LG6CF9huift3Dw1kFT or not ?
30 2012-04-08 00:07:48 splatster has joined
31 2012-04-08 00:08:27 * sipa should start charging for this
32 2012-04-08 00:08:45 <[Tycho]> It's consulting, why would anyone charge for this ?
33 2012-04-08 00:08:46 ski_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
34 2012-04-08 00:13:35 ahbritto has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
35 2012-04-08 00:15:33 <sipa> 37paP4uTjmA4Pi85LG6CF9huift3Dw1kFT
36 2012-04-08 00:15:35 <sipa> indeed
37 2012-04-08 00:16:12 <midnightmagic> ... ab37 needs someone to help him set something up so he can make money off it.
38 2012-04-08 00:16:21 <midnightmagic> that's..
39 2012-04-08 00:16:34 <midnightmagic> sigh
40 2012-04-08 00:16:44 <sipa> he won't
41 2012-04-08 00:16:57 <[Tycho]> Wow !
42 2012-04-08 00:17:01 <midnightmagic> sipa: And in #bitcoin-bots, he writes, "07:47 < ab37> Any open Source IRC botnts?"
43 2012-04-08 00:17:15 <sipa> ...
44 2012-04-08 00:17:25 <midnightmagic> what the hell does that mean
45 2012-04-08 00:17:26 <[Tycho]> Amazing that our results matched.
46 2012-04-08 00:18:10 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
47 2012-04-08 00:24:39 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
48 2012-04-08 00:24:51 <[Tycho]> Hmm, something is not right. Redeeming didn't worked.
49 2012-04-08 00:25:55 <[Tycho]> Oh, it's not standard.
50 2012-04-08 00:26:06 <sipa> Mine it yourself.
51 2012-04-08 00:27:19 ahbritto has joined
52 2012-04-08 00:30:16 <[Tycho]> Checking for standard inputs just takes even more fun from our hands...
53 2012-04-08 00:34:00 abracadab is now known as abracadabra
54 2012-04-08 00:41:19 <[Tycho]> Is there any example of redeeming p2sh-multisig in mainnet or testnet ?
55 2012-04-08 00:44:03 <luke-jr> there should be. :p
56 2012-04-08 00:44:38 <[Tycho]> But i'm not sure how to generate signatures for it.
57 2012-04-08 00:58:50 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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61 2012-04-08 01:05:53 Karmaon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
62 2012-04-08 01:07:02 <luke-jr> OK, so if I have concat(A, B, C) with A and C of unknown size/content, how can I find out which part is B? :/
63 2012-04-08 01:07:10 SomeoneWeirdzzz is now known as SomeoneWeird
64 2012-04-08 01:07:44 toffoo has quit ()
65 2012-04-08 01:09:01 <luke-jr> (I can control B's size/content within reason)
66 2012-04-08 01:15:14 aga is now known as agath
67 2012-04-08 01:29:36 <asoltys> I'm waiting on confirmations for some transactions that I think were sent without the appropriate transaction fee. I don't suppose there's a way to do a new transaction with a fee on it to help speed the others along now?
68 2012-04-08 01:42:46 <[Tycho]> asoltys: are those TXes just normal ? No sub-cent outputs and less than 2 kb in size ?
69 2012-04-08 01:46:31 <asoltys> Tycho: yep I think so. It's the three latest ones coming my way here: https://blockchain.info/address/17vXaX3obAmyWWjfYiYxZtXUfiLCuAGdaQ
70 2012-04-08 01:47:56 <[Tycho]> Hmm, I don't see those in my pool.
71 2012-04-08 01:49:07 <asoltys> Is that because they don't have fees?
72 2012-04-08 01:49:14 <[Tycho]> No.
73 2012-04-08 01:49:25 <[Tycho]> They can be mined for free.
74 2012-04-08 01:54:30 <asoltys> So I should just hang tight? I guess it can take a day or two for free transactions to get confirmed?
75 2012-04-08 01:54:48 <[Tycho]> Usually around 30 minutes.
76 2012-04-08 01:55:10 <[Tycho]> But for some reason those TXes are not in my pool and I don't yet know why.
77 2012-04-08 01:55:52 <[Tycho]> Oh, yes, it's there.
78 2012-04-08 01:55:57 <[Tycho]> Hmm.
79 2012-04-08 01:57:44 Slix` has joined
80 2012-04-08 01:59:37 <[Tycho]> That site is wrong, your TXes may be already confirmed.
81 2012-04-08 01:59:40 <[Tycho]> Use BBE
82 2012-04-08 02:00:45 <[Tycho]> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/982ccd57747ce42e8bc03e58b107c9cba0fe00131cef1c08e2dc0a8fc3316742
83 2012-04-08 02:01:49 <[Tycho]> They aren't in my pool because they are already mined.
84 2012-04-08 02:02:22 sacarlson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
85 2012-04-08 02:02:27 <asoltys> Hmm ok, thanks... I'm using "my wallet" at the blockchain.info site though and it's not letting me spend them, says they're unconfirmed :(
86 2012-04-08 02:02:46 <[Tycho]> Looks like that site is somehow lagging behind.
87 2012-04-08 02:03:01 <asoltys> Gotcha
88 2012-04-08 02:03:27 <[Tycho]> sipa: it worked :) http://blockexplorer.com/tx/e5779b9e78f9650debc2893fd9636d827b26b4ddfa6a8172fe8708c924f5c39d
89 2012-04-08 02:03:29 <asoltys> Thanks for your help, I'm new to this game
90 2012-04-08 02:07:46 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
91 2012-04-08 02:07:47 traviscj has joined
92 2012-04-08 02:08:26 <[Tycho]> Hmm, blockchaininfo wasn't updated for more than 2.5 hours, but still receives new TXes.
93 2012-04-08 02:09:44 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: RainbowDashh)
94 2012-04-08 02:11:23 <asoltys> Maybe it's got separate copies of the chain and only one of them is not updating?
95 2012-04-08 02:12:22 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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114 2012-04-08 02:45:17 sethman895 has joined
115 2012-04-08 02:45:35 <sethman895> What happens when bitcoins run out?
116 2012-04-08 02:45:50 <copumpkin> we all go home and play with lego
117 2012-04-08 02:46:17 <sethman895> lol
118 2012-04-08 02:52:17 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
119 2012-04-08 02:53:38 sacarlson has joined
120 2012-04-08 02:54:08 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
121 2012-04-08 02:54:52 <andytoshi> sethman895: out of curiosity, what do you mean by "run out"?
122 2012-04-08 02:55:59 <sethman895> When the amount of coins in circulation hits 21 million.
123 2012-04-08 02:56:53 <andytoshi> then mining will be fee-based
124 2012-04-08 02:57:08 <andytoshi> or done for free by financial institutions who just need a currency to operate
125 2012-04-08 02:57:13 <andytoshi> or something
126 2012-04-08 02:57:21 <andytoshi> it's a hundred years or so away, hard to tell
127 2012-04-08 02:57:54 <sethman895> Speaking of mineing, have you seen how many companies dedicated to mineing are on the GLBSE?
128 2012-04-08 02:58:10 <andytoshi> maybe a bunch of conspiracy theorists will be burying miners in the next 50 years
129 2012-04-08 02:58:16 <andytoshi> nuclear powered, or geothermal
130 2012-04-08 02:58:24 <andytoshi> which will just quietly run the network forever
131 2012-04-08 02:58:42 <andytoshi> sethman895: none that i know of
132 2012-04-08 02:59:04 <Graet> a few, its no garuntee they will succeed tho :)
133 2012-04-08 02:59:23 <sethman895> How big is the entire block history? (in MB)
134 2012-04-08 03:00:11 RainbowDashh has joined
135 2012-04-08 03:00:40 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895, 1100
136 2012-04-08 03:00:45 <andytoshi> blk0001.dat is 1100mb
137 2012-04-08 03:00:51 <andytoshi> blkindex.dat is 437
138 2012-04-08 03:01:21 <BlueMatt> you dont actually need index, but without it bitcoin would just run incredibly slow
139 2012-04-08 03:01:36 <TuxBlackEdo> bitcoin already runs incredibly slow
140 2012-04-08 03:01:42 <sethman895> I have dial up so I'll have to go to the library or something like that.
141 2012-04-08 03:01:47 <BlueMatt> well, imagine it 1000x worse ;)
142 2012-04-08 03:01:50 phma has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
143 2012-04-08 03:01:55 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895, no way
144 2012-04-08 03:02:09 <TuxBlackEdo> there are people still with dial up?
145 2012-04-08 03:02:44 <sethman895> About 10% of the U.S. still has it.
146 2012-04-08 03:03:19 <andytoshi> are you saying "screw you" to ISP's, or are there none?
147 2012-04-08 03:03:27 phma has joined
148 2012-04-08 03:03:38 <andytoshi> is this an ideological thing, a luddite thing, or is dial-up really your best option?
149 2012-04-08 03:03:47 <andytoshi> (don't mean to give you the 3rd degree, just curious)
150 2012-04-08 03:04:09 <sethman895> I use a localy based (Niagara Falls region) ISP.
151 2012-04-08 03:04:47 <sethman895> I live at the borderline for cable.
152 2012-04-08 03:04:57 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895, if i were you
153 2012-04-08 03:05:00 <TuxBlackEdo> this is what i'd do
154 2012-04-08 03:05:10 <TuxBlackEdo> i'd knock on one of your neighbors doors
155 2012-04-08 03:05:14 <TuxBlackEdo> set up an AP
156 2012-04-08 03:05:21 <TuxBlackEdo> with a hyperlink tech antenna
157 2012-04-08 03:05:46 <TuxBlackEdo> wait let me find the one you want
158 2012-04-08 03:05:55 <TuxBlackEdo> 2.4ghz parabolic antenna
159 2012-04-08 03:06:18 <sethman895> The closest neighbor to me uses HughesNet and they have that really small dialy bandwidth allowance.
160 2012-04-08 03:06:29 <TuxBlackEdo> dude
161 2012-04-08 03:06:32 <TuxBlackEdo> $35
162 2012-04-08 03:06:36 <BlueMatt> you dont have to get (too) fancy, you can get wifi to carry a mile or two with a directional antenna
163 2012-04-08 03:06:50 <TuxBlackEdo> ;;google lucky HG2415EG-NF
164 2012-04-08 03:06:50 <gribble> http://www.altala.net/new/
165 2012-04-08 03:06:55 <TuxBlackEdo> wait not that
166 2012-04-08 03:06:57 <sethman895> Wok-Fi?
167 2012-04-08 03:06:58 andrew12 has quit (Excess Flood)
168 2012-04-08 03:07:02 andrew12 has joined
169 2012-04-08 03:07:27 <sethman895> I do have a couple of PrimeStar dishes.
170 2012-04-08 03:07:30 <TuxBlackEdo> http://www.l-com.com/productfamily.aspx?id=6293
171 2012-04-08 03:07:34 <TuxBlackEdo> get two of those
172 2012-04-08 03:07:47 <TuxBlackEdo> at least 5 miles with LoS
173 2012-04-08 03:07:55 * BlueMatt has heard of people using fancy directional antennas, power boosters, and standard eg wrt54g's to carry wifi a mile or two
174 2012-04-08 03:08:09 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
175 2012-04-08 03:08:12 <TuxBlackEdo> BlueMatt, do you approve of -> <TuxBlackEdo> http://www.l-com.com/productfamily.aspx?id=6293
176 2012-04-08 03:08:25 <sethman895> Would distance slow it down?
177 2012-04-08 03:08:25 * BlueMatt isnt an expert on antenna models
178 2012-04-08 03:08:27 <TuxBlackEdo> $35.00
179 2012-04-08 03:08:32 <luke-jr> I hate dishes.
180 2012-04-08 03:08:33 <BlueMatt> sethman895: not if its done well
181 2012-04-08 03:08:38 OneFixt has joined
182 2012-04-08 03:08:50 <sethman895> Latency?
183 2012-04-08 03:08:50 <BlueMatt> i mean you wouldnt want to game over it
184 2012-04-08 03:08:57 <BlueMatt> but actual dl speeds should be fine
185 2012-04-08 03:09:05 <BlueMatt> latency may be the only issue
186 2012-04-08 03:09:09 <TuxBlackEdo> really?
187 2012-04-08 03:09:21 <sethman895> I'm a big minecraft player.
188 2012-04-08 03:09:23 <TuxBlackEdo> how much would a 5 mile link translate to ping times to the router?
189 2012-04-08 03:09:33 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895, and you play on dialup now, right?
190 2012-04-08 03:09:55 <BlueMatt> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=speed+of+light+over+5+miles+*+2
191 2012-04-08 03:09:57 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@pool-71-252-154-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net|brwyatt
192 2012-04-08 03:10:01 <BlueMatt> 53 microseconds...
193 2012-04-08 03:10:11 <TuxBlackEdo> thats not even that bad
194 2012-04-08 03:10:15 <sethman895> Yeah. Some multi-player servers take forever to load.
195 2012-04-08 03:10:26 MrJiffy has left ()
196 2012-04-08 03:10:27 <BlueMatt> but ok, realistically, you probably wont get more than a few ms
197 2012-04-08 03:10:36 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: erm, what?
198 2012-04-08 03:10:50 <luke-jr> wifi is like 100ms added even if you're sitting next to the router
199 2012-04-08 03:10:58 <TuxBlackEdo> haha
200 2012-04-08 03:10:59 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: on a shitty router/wifi card
201 2012-04-08 03:11:02 <TuxBlackEdo> oh really luke-jr
202 2012-04-08 03:11:07 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: normal*
203 2012-04-08 03:11:08 <sethman895> I love Wolfram Alpha.
204 2012-04-08 03:11:31 <sethman895> It's like Cha-Cha on steroids.
205 2012-04-08 03:11:36 * BlueMatt used to game over wrt54g <-> wrt54g by putting one in client mode and could ping for hours without seeing more than one response over 1ms
206 2012-04-08 03:11:54 <BlueMatt> and those things are damn cheap
207 2012-04-08 03:12:31 <TuxBlackEdo> luke-jr, i am pinging my router which is in the other corner of the house and I am getting <1ms times
208 2012-04-08 03:12:50 <luke-jr> WRT54G are also garbage.
209 2012-04-08 03:12:56 <TuxBlackEdo> i got an e2000
210 2012-04-08 03:13:01 <BlueMatt> TuxBlackEdo: the problem with wifi, at least in my experience, isnt the best case or average times, but the worse case times
211 2012-04-08 03:13:27 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ok, but they still got me 1ms pings and almost perfect theoretical maximum g speeds
212 2012-04-08 03:13:33 <TuxBlackEdo> I got a 216mbit link to my router
213 2012-04-08 03:13:38 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: with other wifi networks in the area, and users?
214 2012-04-08 03:14:00 <luke-jr> (you know, real world scenarios)
215 2012-04-08 03:14:13 <sethman895> I have consider line of sight. In rural Niagara County, we do have a lot of trees.
216 2012-04-08 03:14:15 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895 doesnt need to worry about other wifi networks
217 2012-04-08 03:14:39 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yea, in my house in a fairly dense neighborhood
218 2012-04-08 03:14:54 <BlueMatt> (though, to be fair, all the houses were built using concrete blocks for walls...)
219 2012-04-08 03:14:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: are you using legal frequencies? :P
220 2012-04-08 03:15:00 <luke-jr> o
221 2012-04-08 03:15:02 <BlueMatt> yea
222 2012-04-08 03:15:08 <sethman895> TuxBlackEdo Yeah. I figured that
223 2012-04-08 03:15:29 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895, get two of those $35 antennas
224 2012-04-08 03:15:39 <TuxBlackEdo> and you'll be golden
225 2012-04-08 03:15:43 <BlueMatt> still, if you have good antennas, it wouldnt be unreasonable to see near-perfectly-reliable pings
226 2012-04-08 03:16:11 <BlueMatt> so yea, sethman895 spend some time, find someone with clear los to your house who will share a connection with you, and hack yourself up a fancy wifi rig
227 2012-04-08 03:16:25 <BlueMatt> (and hope it doesnt go out in the rain)
228 2012-04-08 03:16:35 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
229 2012-04-08 03:16:37 <sethman895> Rain fade.
230 2012-04-08 03:17:26 <TuxBlackEdo> i would accept that problem any day if my alternative were dail up
231 2012-04-08 03:18:59 <sethman895> Going off topic, has anyone tried out Windows 8?
232 2012-04-08 03:22:50 sacarlson has joined
233 2012-04-08 03:23:39 <sethman895> Why did it just go silent?
234 2012-04-08 03:23:59 <BlueMatt> because you changed from off-topic, to off-topic ;)
235 2012-04-08 03:24:19 <BlueMatt> or people around here dont like windows ;)
236 2012-04-08 03:24:26 toffoo has joined
237 2012-04-08 03:24:40 <TuxBlackEdo> it's the latter
238 2012-04-08 03:24:57 <luke-jr> does anyone here use Windows?
239 2012-04-08 03:25:13 <sethman895> I don't either. I just use it becuase it is cheaper than a Mac and Linux has no drivers for my modem.
240 2012-04-08 03:25:35 <luke-jr> â¦
241 2012-04-08 03:25:43 <TuxBlackEdo> no 56k drivers for linux?
242 2012-04-08 03:25:57 <sethman895> Expensive ones.
243 2012-04-08 03:26:42 <sethman895> $25 USD
244 2012-04-08 03:26:43 <sethman895> It's a winmodem.
245 2012-04-08 03:30:59 user_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
246 2012-04-08 03:31:37 <Graet> i use windows
247 2012-04-08 03:31:43 <Graet> and linux
248 2012-04-08 03:32:14 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895, http://www.ebay.com/itm/140496944097
249 2012-04-08 03:32:16 <BlueMatt> /kick Graet traitor
250 2012-04-08 03:32:22 <Graet> ?
251 2012-04-08 03:32:27 <BlueMatt> <Graet> i use windows
252 2012-04-08 03:32:27 <sethman895> I used to use Linux. I probably am going to again when Ubuntu 12.04 comes out.
253 2012-04-08 03:32:37 <Graet> i support both, so i helps...
254 2012-04-08 03:32:48 <Graet> it*
255 2012-04-08 03:32:57 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895, 5 miles under ideal conditions
256 2012-04-08 03:33:22 <Graet> and whether we like it or not a *lot* of ppl use windows :)
257 2012-04-08 03:33:55 <sethman895> I use Macs when I can. I love them. I love that OS X is Unix based too.
258 2012-04-08 03:33:58 <BlueMatt> Graet: ok, to be fair I use windows for gaming and win vms for testing...
259 2012-04-08 03:34:04 <Graet> :)
260 2012-04-08 03:34:24 <Graet> should we just /part together BlueMatt :P
261 2012-04-08 03:34:26 <Graet> lmao
262 2012-04-08 03:34:30 <BlueMatt> probably
263 2012-04-08 03:34:34 <Graet> :P
264 2012-04-08 03:35:20 <sethman895> Why is OpenVMS called OPEN when it isn't?
265 2012-04-08 03:35:35 <Graet> catchy name?
266 2012-04-08 03:36:55 <sethman895> Is there any FreeBSD/Darwin ports of bitcoin?
267 2012-04-08 03:36:57 <luke-jr> tbh, I'd prefer Windows over Mac.
268 2012-04-08 03:37:07 <sethman895> WHY?!?
269 2012-04-08 03:37:13 <luke-jr> Mac is just unusable.
270 2012-04-08 03:37:18 <luke-jr> not to mention more closed.
271 2012-04-08 03:37:34 <TuxBlackEdo> yep
272 2012-04-08 03:38:07 <luke-jr> btw, FreeBSD and Darwin aren't related.
273 2012-04-08 03:38:11 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895, check this ebay store out for everything you need (good guy I bought from him before) http://www.ebay.com/sch/simplewifi/m.html
274 2012-04-08 03:38:25 <sethman895> Mac is based on Darwin. That's based on FreeBSD and the Mach/XNU kernel.
275 2012-04-08 03:39:09 <sethman895> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)
276 2012-04-08 03:39:14 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: RainbowDashh)
277 2012-04-08 03:39:34 <luke-jr> sethman895: no, Darwin is based on NeXT, which was based on BSD (not FreeBSD)
278 2012-04-08 03:39:50 <sethman895> Wikipedia says all three/
279 2012-04-08 03:39:54 <sethman895> .
280 2012-04-08 03:41:59 <Graet> wikipedia is renowned for being 100% accurate :P
281 2012-04-08 03:42:09 <luke-jr> (it also doesn't say that)
282 2012-04-08 03:42:14 RainbowDashh has joined
283 2012-04-08 03:42:39 <sethman895> Well, Science Magazine says its just as accurate as Encylopedia Britticania.
284 2012-04-08 03:45:59 <sethman895> What are with the releases of OS X being so soon apart? Lion was released last summer and Mountain Lion will be this summer.
285 2012-04-08 03:46:31 <graingert> Graet: if wikipedia is wrong, it's your fault
286 2012-04-08 03:46:47 <BlueMatt> graingert: its also yours
287 2012-04-08 03:46:54 <graingert> yep
288 2012-04-08 03:46:58 <sethman895> I wish Ubuntu still had ShipIt, with my dial up.
289 2012-04-08 03:46:59 <graingert> send a letter to the editor
290 2012-04-08 03:47:00 <Diablo-D3> sethman895: each release has less changes than the last
291 2012-04-08 03:47:12 <graingert> Diablo-D3: it's closer to getting done
292 2012-04-08 03:47:20 <Diablo-D3> graingert: it'll never be done
293 2012-04-08 03:47:27 <Diablo-D3> honestly, osx needs a top to bottom total rewrite
294 2012-04-08 03:47:35 <Diablo-D3> theres just too much goddamned cruft
295 2012-04-08 03:47:43 <sethman895> Well, Mountain Lion is going to be more iOS-ified.
296 2012-04-08 03:47:54 <Diablo-D3> lion started the iosification
297 2012-04-08 03:47:54 <BlueMatt> theres too much goddamned cruft in every os
298 2012-04-08 03:47:58 <graingert> I'd like to see linux have sandboxing
299 2012-04-08 03:48:00 <BlueMatt> X11 anyone?
300 2012-04-08 03:48:04 <graingert> buh
301 2012-04-08 03:48:08 <graingert> time for wailand
302 2012-04-08 03:48:09 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: x11 was the standard though
303 2012-04-08 03:48:19 <BlueMatt> that doesnt mean its not full of cruft now
304 2012-04-08 03:48:28 <Diablo-D3> eh, its not full of cruft in that sense
305 2012-04-08 03:48:39 <Diablo-D3> its a protocol that doesnt depreciate older features to maintain compatibility
306 2012-04-08 03:48:45 <Diablo-D3> supporting older features on x11 is very damned easy
307 2012-04-08 03:48:49 <sethman895> X11 is not going to be in OS X now.
308 2012-04-08 03:48:51 <BlueMatt> which is the source of all cruft
309 2012-04-08 03:48:51 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt require cruft
310 2012-04-08 03:49:02 <Diablo-D3> sethman895: it "is", you just use the official X builds for it now
311 2012-04-08 03:49:08 <Diablo-D3> apple doesnt bless their own
312 2012-04-08 03:49:10 <Diablo-D3> thats the only change
313 2012-04-08 03:49:12 <BlueMatt> if it werent for backward-compat, windows would be 100x less crufty
314 2012-04-08 03:49:20 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: that I can admit to being true
315 2012-04-08 03:49:26 <Diablo-D3> you've never seen microsoft's prototype OS
316 2012-04-08 03:49:33 <BlueMatt> which one?
317 2012-04-08 03:49:35 <Diablo-D3> its surprisingly well designed for what it is
318 2012-04-08 03:49:38 <sethman895> 10.8 just tells you to check out this XQuartz on Mac OS Forge.
319 2012-04-08 03:49:42 <Diablo-D3> singularity, but it has a different name now
320 2012-04-08 03:49:45 <Diablo-D3> sethman895: exactly.
321 2012-04-08 03:49:50 <sethman895> Midori?
322 2012-04-08 03:50:00 <Diablo-D3> midori is that other thing
323 2012-04-08 03:50:41 <sethman895> Midori is sopused to be the commercial Singularity.
324 2012-04-08 03:50:45 <Diablo-D3> yeah
325 2012-04-08 03:50:53 <Diablo-D3> singularity is a research project that thats all it will ever be
326 2012-04-08 03:51:01 <Diablo-D3> midori is a possible version of windows that uses singularity tech
327 2012-04-08 03:51:15 <Diablo-D3> you know what pisses me off though?
328 2012-04-08 03:51:19 <Diablo-D3> the NT kernel is very well designed
329 2012-04-08 03:51:24 <sethman895> There hasn't been any Singularity releases in awhile.
330 2012-04-08 03:51:28 <Diablo-D3> you know what makes windows a total pile of shit?
331 2012-04-08 03:51:38 <Diablo-D3> the userland.
332 2012-04-08 03:51:42 <Diablo-D3> the win32 userland.
333 2012-04-08 03:51:46 <Diablo-D3> thats what fucks it up
334 2012-04-08 03:51:53 <Diablo-D3> ever use SFU? thats a unix that runs natively on the NT kernel
335 2012-04-08 03:51:58 <Diablo-D3> it uses none of the win32 userland
336 2012-04-08 03:52:01 <Diablo-D3> and its very fucking fast.
337 2012-04-08 03:52:05 <Diablo-D3> absurdly so.
338 2012-04-08 03:52:16 <Diablo-D3> you know who designed the NT kernel? the guy who designed the VMS kernel.
339 2012-04-08 03:52:22 <sethman895> Really?
340 2012-04-08 03:52:30 <Diablo-D3> someone who knows more about OS design than everyone in here combined, me included.
341 2012-04-08 03:52:45 <Diablo-D3> yet they take this rather decent kernel and bolt total fucking shit to it
342 2012-04-08 03:53:30 <sethman895> Microsoft made NT 4 for PowerPC.
343 2012-04-08 03:53:37 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
344 2012-04-08 03:53:49 <Diablo-D3> and alpha
345 2012-04-08 03:53:53 <sethman895> and MIPS
346 2012-04-08 03:53:58 <Diablo-D3> and mips
347 2012-04-08 03:53:59 <Diablo-D3> heh
348 2012-04-08 03:54:11 <Diablo-D3> now where is that file I wrote
349 2012-04-08 03:54:39 <sethman895> Off topic, I really think Sony is evil.
350 2012-04-08 03:54:42 <Diablo-D3> http://git.atheme.org/libmowgli-2/tree/src/libmowgli/platform/machine.h
351 2012-04-08 03:54:48 <Diablo-D3> bam.
352 2012-04-08 03:55:56 <sethman895> Would you ever try a Windows 8 ARM tablet?
353 2012-04-08 03:56:36 <Diablo-D3> probably not
354 2012-04-08 03:56:52 <Diablo-D3> not that Im saying android is good, mind you
355 2012-04-08 03:57:09 <sethman895> I can't wait for Open webOS.
356 2012-04-08 03:57:12 <Diablo-D3> but windows 8's tablet experience (which is completely overhauled from 7s) just isnt it yet.
357 2012-04-08 03:57:19 <Diablo-D3> webos is already open
358 2012-04-08 03:57:25 <Diablo-D3> webos just isnt particularly the answer either
359 2012-04-08 03:58:36 <sethman895> The TouchPad was only in production for 7 weeks.
360 2012-04-08 03:59:03 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
361 2012-04-08 04:00:16 <sethman895> What's a good Java compiler?
362 2012-04-08 04:00:26 <Diablo-D3> java.
363 2012-04-08 04:00:35 <sethman895> Yeah.
364 2012-04-08 04:00:47 <Diablo-D3> no, I mean java itself is a good java compiler.
365 2012-04-08 04:00:58 <Diablo-D3> java compilers only parse syntax into bytecode
366 2012-04-08 04:01:16 <Diablo-D3> the jvm itself is what does what most people call compiling, and it does it at runtime and during runtime.
367 2012-04-08 04:02:43 <sethman895> I'll have to try out ReactOS.
368 2012-04-08 04:03:35 <brwyatt> sethman895: You'll have to tell me how that is.
369 2012-04-08 04:04:15 <Diablo-D3> reactos is strange
370 2012-04-08 04:04:21 <Diablo-D3> its sorta like wine as an os. sort of.
371 2012-04-08 04:04:26 <Diablo-D3> wine, natively, as an os.
372 2012-04-08 04:04:29 <Diablo-D3> native wine.
373 2012-04-08 04:04:30 <sethman895> It's an operating system designed to be binary compatible with Windows.
374 2012-04-08 04:04:32 <Diablo-D3> as an os.
375 2012-04-08 04:04:38 <Diablo-D3> its like tripping on lsd.
376 2012-04-08 04:04:44 <brwyatt> In my experience, Wine just... doesn't work.
377 2012-04-08 04:04:45 <sethman895> Open-source too..
378 2012-04-08 04:04:53 <Diablo-D3> wine works pretty damned well actually
379 2012-04-08 04:05:02 <brwyatt> Well... yes.
380 2012-04-08 04:05:05 <Diablo-D3> I played portal 2 in it
381 2012-04-08 04:05:08 <sethman895> CrossOver.
382 2012-04-08 04:05:11 <Diablo-D3> beat the whole game, start to finish
383 2012-04-08 04:05:20 <[Tycho]> BTW, ReactOS project coordinator is in this channel :)
384 2012-04-08 04:05:27 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: I dont doubt it
385 2012-04-08 04:05:28 <brwyatt> I can't get portal to launch. I got Steam to at least run.
386 2012-04-08 04:05:33 <Diablo-D3> all sorts of weirdos are in here
387 2012-04-08 04:05:45 <sethman895> There should be steam for linux.
388 2012-04-08 04:05:49 <sethman895> and mac.
389 2012-04-08 04:05:51 <Diablo-D3> sethman895: no there shouldnt.
390 2012-04-08 04:05:53 <brwyatt> sethman895: Yes, there should.
391 2012-04-08 04:05:55 <Diablo-D3> and there is steam for macyou idiot
392 2012-04-08 04:06:01 <Diablo-D3> they officially launched that over a year ago
393 2012-04-08 04:06:03 <Diablo-D3> where were you
394 2012-04-08 04:06:13 <sethman895> Really?
395 2012-04-08 04:06:21 <brwyatt> They even had a cool promo video for it.
396 2012-04-08 04:06:35 <[Tycho]> ReactOS is not "Wine", it's a Windows-compatible OS.
397 2012-04-08 04:06:48 <sethman895> It does use some Wine code.
398 2012-04-08 04:06:56 <Diablo-D3> the promo is lol
399 2012-04-08 04:07:05 <Diablo-D3> <portal turret> hi, Im a mac
400 2012-04-08 04:07:11 <Diablo-D3> <tf2 turret> hi, Im a PC
401 2012-04-08 04:07:12 <[Tycho]> Yes, and Wine uses some code by ReactOS developers.
402 2012-04-08 04:07:19 <Diablo-D3> reactos and wine swap code frequently
403 2012-04-08 04:07:36 <Diablo-D3> its the only way to get the vastly undocumented internal shit fleshed out
404 2012-04-08 04:07:59 sacarlson has joined
405 2012-04-08 04:08:12 <[Tycho]> But Wine is mostly useless, compared to ReactOS.
406 2012-04-08 04:09:14 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: RainbowDashh)
407 2012-04-08 04:09:31 <luke-jr> â¦
408 2012-04-08 04:09:49 <sethman895> ...
409 2012-04-08 04:09:50 <luke-jr> WINE is most of the use of ReactOS
410 2012-04-08 04:10:48 <[Tycho]> Yeah, and tonal is most of the use of Bitcoin ? :)
411 2012-04-08 04:10:57 <luke-jr> sure
412 2012-04-08 04:12:12 <sethman895> What if Bitcoin went into the mainstream?
413 2012-04-08 04:12:30 <BlueMatt> then it would be mainstream
414 2012-04-08 04:13:05 <sethman895> MintChip
415 2012-04-08 04:13:31 macet has joined
416 2012-04-08 04:13:36 <sethman895> Maybe that will help us.
417 2012-04-08 04:14:16 sacarlson has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
418 2012-04-08 04:15:24 macet has quit (Client Quit)
419 2012-04-08 04:16:18 <sethman895> Has anyone tried Haiku OS?
420 2012-04-08 04:16:40 <[Tycho]> What for ?
421 2012-04-08 04:17:34 <sethman895> Testing and plain old use.
422 2012-04-08 04:17:51 RainbowDashh has joined
423 2012-04-08 04:18:02 <[Tycho]> I have some doubts about the available applications.
424 2012-04-08 04:18:26 <sethman895> It has complete compatibility with BeOS apps.
425 2012-04-08 04:18:47 <[Tycho]> That's a lot ?
426 2012-04-08 04:19:22 <sethman895> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BeOS_programs
427 2012-04-08 04:19:33 <sethman895> Probably more than that.
428 2012-04-08 04:20:20 <[Tycho]> What are benefits of using BeOS instead of more usual OSes ?
429 2012-04-08 04:21:04 <sethman895> It's supposed to be more simple than other OSes.
430 2012-04-08 04:21:16 <[Tycho]> What does it means ?
431 2012-04-08 04:21:23 <sethman895> Easy to use, powerful
432 2012-04-08 04:21:46 <[Tycho]> Looks the same for me. How it's easier than windows ?
433 2012-04-08 04:22:34 sacarlson has joined
434 2012-04-08 04:22:35 <sethman895> It isn't. http://haiku-os.org/
435 2012-04-08 04:23:59 <sethman895> Linux-based distributions stack up software -- the Linux kernel, the X Window System, and various DEs with disparate toolkits such as GTK+ and Qt -- that do not necessarily share the same guidelines and/or goals. This lack of consistency and overall vision manifests itself in increased complexity, insufficient integration, and inefficient solutions, making the use of your computer more complicated than it should actually be.
436 2012-04-08 04:24:14 <sethman895> Instead, Haiku has a single focus on personal computing and is driven by a unified vision for the whole OS. That, we believe, enables Haiku to provide a leaner, cleaner and more efficient system capable of providing a better user experience that is simple and uniform throughout.
437 2012-04-08 04:24:22 <sethman895> from the Haiku FAQ
438 2012-04-08 04:24:32 <[Tycho]> Well, I was not comparing it to Linux.
439 2012-04-08 04:24:47 <sethman895> Forgot.
440 2012-04-08 04:26:47 <sethman895> It's open source. That's better.
441 2012-04-08 04:26:55 <sethman895> than closed.
442 2012-04-08 04:27:11 RainbowDashh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
443 2012-04-08 04:27:19 <[Tycho]> Normal users (~95+%) don't care about this at all.
444 2012-04-08 04:27:29 <sethman895> Yeah.
445 2012-04-08 04:27:33 RainbowDashh has joined
446 2012-04-08 04:28:05 <sethman895> Off topic, do you like electronic music?
447 2012-04-08 04:28:19 <[Tycho]> Sometimes. But I'm not THAT Tycho.
448 2012-04-08 04:28:21 Rabbit67890 has joined
449 2012-04-08 04:28:56 <sethman895> I especially like Daft Punk and deadmau5.
450 2012-04-08 04:29:17 <[Tycho]> Never heard about "deadmau5".
451 2012-04-08 04:29:49 <sethman895> He's Canadian. He has that song Ghosts 'N' Stuff.
452 2012-04-08 04:30:01 <Diablo-D3> deadmas sucks badly
453 2012-04-08 04:30:10 <Diablo-D3> I wish people would quit saying hes good
454 2012-04-08 04:30:16 <Diablo-D3> hes just a poser that wishes he had talent
455 2012-04-08 04:30:27 <sethman895> He's great!
456 2012-04-08 04:31:58 <[Tycho]> Electronic like this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BLFcIwo2Hk
457 2012-04-08 04:32:08 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
458 2012-04-08 04:32:52 <[Tycho]> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwjL35LG-p4
459 2012-04-08 04:32:59 <sethman895> I have dial up. Genres like house, Progressive house, minimal
460 2012-04-08 04:33:11 <[Tycho]> Wow. Dialup still exists ?
461 2012-04-08 04:33:13 <[Tycho]> Just wow.
462 2012-04-08 04:33:26 pickett has joined
463 2012-04-08 04:33:47 <sethman895> I'm part of that 10% of the U.S. population.
464 2012-04-08 04:34:18 <gmaxwell> Next you're going to tell us people are still using IRC.
465 2012-04-08 04:34:33 <sethman895> LOL
466 2012-04-08 04:36:38 <sethman895> What is with Wikipedia semi protection?
467 2012-04-08 04:37:29 <Diablo-D3> dialup doesnt exist
468 2012-04-08 04:37:38 <sethman895> I wish.
469 2012-04-08 04:37:45 <Diablo-D3> I mean, ignore the fact I used to download anime off dialup
470 2012-04-08 04:38:47 <gmaxwell> sethman895: semi protected pages can only be edited by 'established' accounts.
471 2012-04-08 04:39:41 <TuxBlackEdo> Diablo-D3, hentai*
472 2012-04-08 04:40:28 <Diablo-D3> TuxBlackEdo: nope, anime
473 2012-04-08 04:40:38 <Diablo-D3> you know, honestly, I dont really care for most hentai
474 2012-04-08 04:44:36 <sethman895> Suddenly, Internet Explorer got better. IE9 and 10 pass the Acid3 test.
475 2012-04-08 04:45:48 <TuxBlackEdo> sethman895, 24-30dBi 2.4ghz directional parabolic dish antenna
476 2012-04-08 04:45:55 <gmaxwell> sethman895: not really. They make the page say "pass" but they display it wrong.
477 2012-04-08 04:46:42 <gmaxwell> (The acid test requirement isn't just that it says pass...)
478 2012-04-08 04:48:09 <TuxBlackEdo> gmaxwell, the acid3 test doesn't say "pass"
479 2012-04-08 04:48:34 <TuxBlackEdo> the animation it makes has to be smooth and it has to hit 100/100
480 2012-04-08 04:48:44 <gmaxwell> (it says 100/100)
481 2012-04-08 04:49:06 sethman895 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
482 2012-04-08 04:49:32 <gmaxwell> TuxBlackEdo: and it has to produce identical output to the reference, Firefox, Safari, Opera do. IE does not.
483 2012-04-08 04:49:36 <gmaxwell> (IIRC)
484 2012-04-08 04:49:50 <TuxBlackEdo> i can get it to work in chrome 50% of the time
485 2012-04-08 04:50:18 <TuxBlackEdo> if i open a brand new chrome window and do the test it works, but if i open it in a new tab it looks weird
486 2012-04-08 04:51:28 <TuxBlackEdo> since i am in a dev channel i guess it wouldn't hurt to ask a question on a project I am doing
487 2012-04-08 04:52:40 sethman895 has joined
488 2012-04-08 04:52:47 <TuxBlackEdo> Is there any way to properly set z-indexes for embedded flash/youtube videos. I have a problem that when I activate certain controls on different instances (e.g. closing a youtube ad) that it brings that flash to the front (rather then keeping the layers that i set in my css/styles)
489 2012-04-08 04:53:35 <TuxBlackEdo> amazingly this behavior only happens in chrome
490 2012-04-08 04:53:44 <TuxBlackEdo> so i should be asking in #chrome i guess
491 2012-04-08 04:54:20 <Diablo-D3> TuxBlackEdo: no
492 2012-04-08 04:54:25 <Diablo-D3> its a linux bug btw
493 2012-04-08 04:54:29 <Diablo-D3> even chrome is effected
494 2012-04-08 04:54:29 <sethman895> I love chrome.
495 2012-04-08 04:54:37 <Diablo-D3> because the way flash works in linux, it just draws all over shit
496 2012-04-08 04:54:45 <TuxBlackEdo> yep :(
497 2012-04-08 04:54:50 <Diablo-D3> the easy way is to just not use flash
498 2012-04-08 04:54:57 <gmaxwell> It's not just linux. In generalâ plugins _can't_ integrate into the browser imaging pipeline.
499 2012-04-08 04:55:04 <gmaxwell> And if they did it would be doubly slow.
500 2012-04-08 04:55:12 <TuxBlackEdo> yes...
501 2012-04-08 04:55:16 <BlueMatt> in general, plugins suck
502 2012-04-08 04:55:27 <sethman895> Yes
503 2012-04-08 04:57:55 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: they could
504 2012-04-08 04:57:59 <Diablo-D3> nsapi doesnt offer it
505 2012-04-08 04:58:54 <Diablo-D3> all you do is just hand them a false gles context and make them do gles context interaction synchronously using a callback called by the browser
506 2012-04-08 04:59:16 <gmaxwell> 21:53 < gmaxwell> And if they did it would be doubly slow.
507 2012-04-08 04:59:27 <Diablo-D3> nothing I said was slow.
508 2012-04-08 04:59:53 <Diablo-D3> plus, flash can offload everything to the browser anyhow
509 2012-04-08 04:59:56 <gmaxwell> copying the output _at least_ two more times as a pure framebuffer will be slow.
510 2012-04-08 05:00:03 <Diablo-D3> it could be reimplemented a javascript plugin that uses <video> and webgl.
511 2012-04-08 05:00:39 <BlueMatt> or we could just all stop using flash and move on
512 2012-04-08 05:00:49 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: thats what I just said.
513 2012-04-08 05:00:58 <gmaxwell> People are constantly bitching about flash and html5 video playback performance vs native players and that slowness comes purely from the couple extra copies that the flash or html (respectively) rendering pipeline needs to make.
514 2012-04-08 05:01:25 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: except thats 100% bullshit
515 2012-04-08 05:01:31 <Diablo-D3> browsers are free to use hardware acceleration to decode
516 2012-04-08 05:01:35 <Diablo-D3> and on many OS, they do
517 2012-04-08 05:02:03 <sethman895> Hey Arnold is on. :)
518 2012-04-08 05:02:05 <gmaxwell> No, they can'tâ not while actually being integrated with the rendering pipeline (which, in particular _requires_ rgb compositing)
519 2012-04-08 05:02:23 <Diablo-D3> firefox on both windows and osx uses hardware decoding for <video>.
520 2012-04-08 05:02:31 <gmaxwell> (well, to be fair GL mode firefox _does_ doe this, but it requires the entire page rendering to be opengl to achieve it)
521 2012-04-08 05:02:49 <Diablo-D3> opengl is the native rendering API of linux, really.
522 2012-04-08 05:03:20 <Diablo-D3> unless firefox wants to build its own gallium renderer, anyways
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570 2012-04-08 08:13:49 * Diablo-D3 shoots the rabbit
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572 2012-04-08 08:21:04 <SomeoneWeird> lol
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598 2012-04-08 10:30:02 <rebroad> Hi.. I'm currently modifying bitcoin to make it download blocks better and not forget what it's doing, as happens with my ISP... I was wondering, would a dedicated thread for dealing with progressing the chain be a good idea?
599 2012-04-08 10:30:29 <rebroad> and perhaps, for limited bandwidth nodes, even suspending other activities during that stage while it catches up?
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602 2012-04-08 10:45:00 <blinkbat> not this guy again
603 2012-04-08 10:45:15 <blinkbat> "oh my internet connection sucks so im gonna modify bitcoin to somehow scrape along and not bork out"
604 2012-04-08 10:46:30 <sipa> well, bitcoin certainly could use some improvement about how to manage downloading the blockchain
605 2012-04-08 10:46:44 <sipa> but with his connection it's probably going to suck forever
606 2012-04-08 10:47:06 <TD> i'm kind of surprised the ISP takes the approach of allowing non-web connections then resetting them
607 2012-04-08 10:47:10 <TD> why not just block != 80/443?
608 2012-04-08 10:47:22 <sipa> TD: people would complain
609 2012-04-08 10:47:22 <blinkbat> im just wondering, why doesnt he just get a better isp...
610 2012-04-08 10:47:43 <TD> block chain download management is hard
611 2012-04-08 10:47:56 <TD> i'm planning another overhaul of it for bitcoinj at some point
612 2012-04-08 10:48:17 <sipa> well, if the connection from which the chain was being downloaded goes down, it's almost trivial to just send a getblocks somewhere else
613 2012-04-08 10:48:27 <sipa> but that doesn't happen
614 2012-04-08 10:53:34 denisx has joined
615 2012-04-08 10:53:37 <TD> there's down and then there's "very slow"
616 2012-04-08 10:53:57 <TD> there's also "you connected to a peer that got stuck and is way behind other peers" or even worse "you connect to 3 peers and all of them report different chain heights"
617 2012-04-08 10:54:06 <TD> how is the current download peer selected?
618 2012-04-08 10:54:20 <sipa> very simple: just the first established connection
619 2012-04-08 10:54:26 <TD> that's what i thought
620 2012-04-08 10:54:30 <TD> bitcoinj does the same thing
621 2012-04-08 10:54:43 <TD> i got bug reports like, sometimes the download peer is stalled and then the chain never downloads
622 2012-04-08 10:55:11 <TD> transactions are downloaded from every peer though, right. there's no attempt to conserve bandwidth by only fetching once
623 2012-04-08 10:55:36 <sipa> transactions are downloaded from the first that sends you an inv
624 2012-04-08 10:55:47 <TD> ok
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628 2012-04-08 11:26:20 <DrHaribo> Is there a way, using bitcoind json-rpc interface, to tell the difference between a tx that isn't presently in the longest chain, and a tx that does not affect my wallet?
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630 2012-04-08 11:27:29 <DrHaribo> Looking up an orphaned generation tx with "gettransaction" I get: error: {"code":-5,"message":"Invalid or non-wallet transaction id"}
631 2012-04-08 11:28:36 <sipa> DrHaribo: there's a patch ready for 0.7 that extends gettransaction to non-wallet transactions
632 2012-04-08 11:30:26 <DrHaribo> But this is a wallet transaction. On testnet I created two blocks at the same height. I can look up both blocks with "getblock", but only one of the generation trasanctions with "gettransaction".
633 2012-04-08 11:30:49 <sipa> huh
634 2012-04-08 11:31:06 <sipa> aah, i see
635 2012-04-08 11:31:41 <DrHaribo> (I used "getmemorypool" to submit two new blocks at the same height)
636 2012-04-08 11:35:15 <DrHaribo> I guess if a block has never been part of the longest chain, you can't look at its transactions.
637 2012-04-08 11:35:59 delt0r has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
638 2012-04-08 11:36:12 <sipa> gettransaction only interacts with the wallet, not with the block chain database
639 2012-04-08 11:36:28 <sipa> but i believe coinbases are only added to the wallet after 1 confirmation
640 2012-04-08 11:37:00 <DrHaribo> Ah. The 0.7 patches will likely not change that, right?
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642 2012-04-08 11:40:02 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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644 2012-04-08 11:42:21 <TD> DrHaribo: what are you trying to do? might some other bitcoin implementation work better for you?
645 2012-04-08 11:43:28 occulta_ has joined
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647 2012-04-08 11:48:13 <DrHaribo> TD: I'm changing my mining pool backend to keep track of new transactions and how they may change back and forth between being orphaned and not.
648 2012-04-08 11:48:34 <TD> ok
649 2012-04-08 11:48:58 <TD> what's the reason, if you don't mind me asking? i don't know much about pooled mining
650 2012-04-08 11:50:07 <DrHaribo> You need to keep tabs on the generation transactions so you can pay out to miners.
651 2012-04-08 11:50:30 <DrHaribo> If a gen tx is orphaned right now, I can't say "oh it's orphaned, I'll never look at it again."
652 2012-04-08 11:50:44 <DrHaribo> It might become valid 30 minutes later, and I need to pay out those coins.
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661 2012-04-08 12:22:20 <luke-jr> sipa: generation transactions don't *exist* until 1 confirm⦠:p
662 2012-04-08 12:24:07 zeiris is now known as amtal
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672 2012-04-08 12:44:45 <blinkbat> im having a bit of trouble with my transaction
673 2012-04-08 12:44:45 <blinkbat> 46a37be388bd0c901640d2c96591dd441b1a914f7aa2997c6224552232c88218
674 2012-04-08 12:45:07 blinkbat has left ()
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676 2012-04-08 12:45:18 <blinkbat> it was sent about 3 hours ago
677 2012-04-08 12:45:21 <blinkbat> yet no confirms
678 2012-04-08 12:45:34 <blinkbat> another simular transaction made at the same time went through and has like 13 confirms
679 2012-04-08 12:45:36 <blinkbat> whats up??
680 2012-04-08 12:46:25 <luke-jr> not enough fees?
681 2012-04-08 12:47:17 <blinkbat> what can i do about it though?
682 2012-04-08 12:47:21 <blinkbat> i cant undo the transaction can i?
683 2012-04-08 12:47:29 <luke-jr> nope
684 2012-04-08 12:47:33 <luke-jr> how did you send it?
685 2012-04-08 12:47:34 <blinkbat> :/
686 2012-04-08 12:47:37 <blinkbat> blockchain.info wallet
687 2012-04-08 12:47:40 <luke-jr> Bitcoin-Qt doesn't let people send stuff like that
688 2012-04-08 12:47:41 <luke-jr> ah
689 2012-04-08 12:47:49 <blinkbat> like what?
690 2012-04-08 12:48:23 <blinkbat> i dont get this
691 2012-04-08 12:48:31 <blinkbat> why didnt blockchain.info ask me to add a fee?
692 2012-04-08 12:48:42 <luke-jr> no idea
693 2012-04-08 12:48:56 <luke-jr> how much were you trying to send?
694 2012-04-08 12:49:09 <blinkbat> 0.04 in total
695 2012-04-08 12:49:19 <blinkbat> it does wierd things like send the remaining amount in the wallet back to itself
696 2012-04-08 12:49:19 <blinkbat> too
697 2012-04-08 12:49:22 <blinkbat> which is like 6 btc
698 2012-04-08 12:49:54 <blinkbat> luke-jr: what generally happens if a transaction is sent that doesnt have a high enough fee? is the btc lost in the system?
699 2012-04-08 12:50:15 <luke-jr> blinkbat: it just never confirms
700 2012-04-08 12:50:30 <blinkbat> that means the money is lost?
701 2012-04-08 12:50:54 <luke-jr> when you're sending amounts like 0.008663 BTC, you really need to pay a fee
702 2012-04-08 12:51:01 <luke-jr> blinkbat: no, it means it isn't confirmed.
703 2012-04-08 12:51:14 <sipa> blinkbat: not lost technically
704 2012-04-08 12:51:15 <luke-jr> nobody should really be demanding confirmations for such tiny payments anyhow
705 2012-04-08 12:51:19 <blinkbat> luke-jr: if it never confirms, how do you get the btc back?
706 2012-04-08 12:51:25 <luke-jr> blinkbat: you don't.
707 2012-04-08 12:51:28 <luke-jr> you sent it
708 2012-04-08 12:51:32 <blinkbat> ok luke-jr, isnt that a bit flawed?
709 2012-04-08 12:51:41 <blinkbat> the person who received it cant send it until its confirmed
710 2012-04-08 12:51:52 <luke-jr> they *can*â¦
711 2012-04-08 12:52:03 <blinkbat> how can they? it isnt even in a block?
712 2012-04-08 12:52:12 <luke-jr> it doesn't need to be.
713 2012-04-08 12:52:17 * blinkbat facepalms
714 2012-04-08 12:52:20 <sipa> blinkbat: there's two views: the client and the protocol
715 2012-04-08 12:52:30 <luke-jr> blinkbat: did blockchain.info charge *you* a fee to send this?
716 2012-04-08 12:52:40 <blinkbat> no
717 2012-04-08 12:53:10 <sipa> blinkbat: for the protocol, if it doesn't confirm, you can just try spending it again; the first that gets mined wins
718 2012-04-08 12:53:32 <blinkbat> oh ok
719 2012-04-08 12:53:45 <luke-jr> blinkbat: if you send 0.01 BTC to 15eqU4vZViDeiB8xAjtZ9xJEETMSfdvKsM , I will confirm it
720 2012-04-08 12:53:55 nonick has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
721 2012-04-08 12:53:58 <blinkbat> :/
722 2012-04-08 12:54:00 <sipa> blinkbat: also, the protocol does not require confirmations before spending (both transactions will have to be mined still)
723 2012-04-08 12:54:29 darkee has joined
724 2012-04-08 12:54:36 <sipa> however, the client will not allow spending before confirmation (unless it's a send-to-self)
725 2012-04-08 12:54:56 <sipa> and once sent, the client will not allow spending it again
726 2012-04-08 12:55:14 <luke-jr> blinkbat: if you need the first transaction to go through before you can send the fee, I'll take a promise to do so as sufficient :p
727 2012-04-08 12:55:42 <blinkbat> luke-jr: huh?
728 2012-04-08 12:55:56 <luke-jr> blinkbat: huh what?
729 2012-04-08 12:56:14 <blinkbat> i didnt quite understand what you said
730 2012-04-08 12:56:33 <blinkbat> oh nm, im cool luke-jr
731 2012-04-08 12:56:47 <luke-jr> blinkbat: if you send 0.01 BTC to 15eqU4vZViDeiB8xAjtZ9xJEETMSfdvKsM - or promise to do so as soon as your txn confirms, if you can't right away - I will confirm it
732 2012-04-08 12:56:48 <blinkbat> id rather not pay 0.01 for a transaction thats only 0.04
733 2012-04-08 12:57:17 <luke-jr> well, I can't exactly ask for less⦠actually, I suppose I could, since I can just confirm that too
734 2012-04-08 12:57:31 <luke-jr> blinkbat: how about the standard fee of 0.0005 BTC? :p
735 2012-04-08 12:57:31 <blinkbat> luke-jr: the standard fee is like 0.0005
736 2012-04-08 12:57:42 <blinkbat> but then id have to pay a fee on the fee
737 2012-04-08 12:57:54 <luke-jr> I thought blockchain.info just let you send less without a fee?
738 2012-04-08 12:57:55 <blinkbat> anyway, its the principal of this
739 2012-04-08 12:58:03 <luke-jr> the principal of this is, you should have paid a fee :p
740 2012-04-08 12:58:14 <blinkbat> if i forget to put a fee in my transaction, i could end up having btc tied up for a long time
741 2012-04-08 12:58:20 <blinkbat> that doesnt seem very good
742 2012-04-08 12:58:30 <luke-jr> that's a problem with blockchain.info's infrastructure
743 2012-04-08 12:58:32 <blinkbat> im lucky it was such a small transaction
744 2012-04-08 12:58:56 <blinkbat> if a newbie is transferring several hundred btc... im pretty sure they wont be happy about this kinda situation
745 2012-04-08 12:59:07 <luke-jr> they should have included a fee too
746 2012-04-08 12:59:29 <luke-jr> it's pretty well-documented that if you want confirmations in a timely manner, you should include a fee.
747 2012-04-08 13:00:15 <blinkbat> well-documented lol
748 2012-04-08 13:00:17 <blinkbat> haha
749 2012-04-08 13:00:24 <blinkbat> where is it well documented?
750 2012-04-08 13:00:53 Cory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
751 2012-04-08 13:01:03 <blinkbat> is this what its gonna be like in the future when 2-3 pools have a monopoly over mining... "pay us 10% or your transaction aint getting included"
752 2012-04-08 13:01:32 <luke-jr> no
753 2012-04-08 13:01:41 <luke-jr> since it's not really possible for the miner to know how much you're sending
754 2012-04-08 13:01:43 <sipa> blinkbat: there are a few steps necessary
755 2012-04-08 13:02:05 <blinkbat> luke-jr: huh, arent all the transactions published in the blockchain available for anyone to see?
756 2012-04-08 13:02:19 <sipa> first is allowing clients to redo failing transactions
757 2012-04-08 13:02:52 Cory has joined
758 2012-04-08 13:03:04 <sipa> blinkbat: yes, but you cannot know (for certain) what the amount being sent is
759 2012-04-08 13:03:31 <blinkbat> ok
760 2012-04-08 13:03:41 <luke-jr> blinkbat: the transactions don't say how much is being transferred
761 2012-04-08 13:04:09 <luke-jr> [08:48:09] <blinkbat> it does wierd things like send the remaining amount in the wallet back to itself <-- that is *required* by the protocol, and there is no way to know which output is the "remaining amount"
762 2012-04-08 13:04:37 t7 has joined
763 2012-04-08 13:04:39 <blinkbat> i see, i never noticed that in the official bitcoin client
764 2012-04-08 13:04:42 <blinkbat> but meh, ill accept that
765 2012-04-08 13:04:55 <sipa> it works the same way
766 2012-04-08 13:05:01 <blinkbat> im just a little frustrated at blockchain.info for not even asking me to add a fee
767 2012-04-08 13:05:22 <sipa> you don't send amounts, you combine and split coins, and transfer their ownership
768 2012-04-08 13:05:26 <luke-jr> blinkbat: and they don't have any "add a fee after the fact" or "cancel transaction"?
769 2012-04-08 13:05:39 <blinkbat> i dont beleive so
770 2012-04-08 13:05:53 <luke-jr> blinkbat: so how about just sending the fee now? :P
771 2012-04-08 13:06:12 <blinkbat> to you luke-jr?
772 2012-04-08 13:06:17 <blinkbat> lol
773 2012-04-08 13:07:16 <superjames> what if i sent thousands of 0.00000001 transactions between two clients. there is protection against this?
774 2012-04-08 13:07:27 <superjames> if i understand this correctly the absence of a fee would just slow it down but all that shit would still need to be processed
775 2012-04-08 13:07:49 <luke-jr> blinkbat: yes
776 2012-04-08 13:07:53 <blinkbat> i understand that fees are neccesary to keep the system running and stop spam superjames
777 2012-04-08 13:08:07 <blinkbat> i just dont like the idea that the transaction will jsut languish if you dont pay the fee
778 2012-04-08 13:08:12 <luke-jr> superjames: as blinkbat is noticing, such low-amount transactions will *never* be processed
779 2012-04-08 13:08:17 <blinkbat> theres no way to undo a transaction... or include a fee afterwards
780 2012-04-08 13:08:35 <blinkbat> i didnt realise 0.04 btc was a low amount
781 2012-04-08 13:08:39 <luke-jr> blinkbat: just send the fee to 15eqU4vZViDeiB8xAjtZ9xJEETMSfdvKsM
782 2012-04-08 13:08:44 <luke-jr> blinkbat: you didn't send 0.04 BTC
783 2012-04-08 13:08:56 <luke-jr> you sent 0.031337 BTC and 0.008663 BTC
784 2012-04-08 13:09:05 <blinkbat> yeh add them up and it makes 0.04
785 2012-04-08 13:09:16 <luke-jr> 0.008663 BTC is a low amount.
786 2012-04-08 13:09:31 <blinkbat> so if any output in a transaction is low, that makes the entire transaction a low amount
787 2012-04-08 13:09:31 <blinkbat> ?
788 2012-04-08 13:09:35 <luke-jr> yes
789 2012-04-08 13:09:38 <blinkbat> thats silly
790 2012-04-08 13:09:50 <blinkbat> i could send 50 bitcoins somewhere, and 0.0000001 another place
791 2012-04-08 13:09:56 <blinkbat> and all of a sudden it becomes a low transaction requiring a fee
792 2012-04-08 13:09:59 <luke-jr> so don't do that without a fee.
793 2012-04-08 13:10:37 <blinkbat> luke-jr: your prepared to confirm it with 0.0005 btc ?
794 2012-04-08 13:10:41 <luke-jr> blinkbat: yes
795 2012-04-08 13:10:52 <blinkbat> ok
796 2012-04-08 13:10:53 <luke-jr> you might need to manually tell me the txnid of the fee tho
797 2012-04-08 13:11:05 <blinkbat> ill pay, but im not gonna be happy about it lol
798 2012-04-08 13:11:23 <luke-jr> meh, it's not like I didn't just send you 0.00065536 BTC the other day :P
799 2012-04-08 13:12:21 <blinkbat> 0.0005 sent to 15eqU4vZViDeiB8xAjtZ9xJEETMSfdvKsM -> Sent 3af12b05261c2f20af2b07129889fd15c0cd85c1d3e91abd89dd298456d22eaf
800 2012-04-08 13:12:39 <blinkbat> luke-jr, oh yeh, about that... that transaction didnt make it through
801 2012-04-08 13:12:46 <blinkbat> it disappeared out my wallet for some reason
802 2012-04-08 13:12:46 <luke-jr> blinkbat: it will when yours does
803 2012-04-08 13:13:34 <luke-jr> OK, all 3 transactions are queued for Eligius's next block
804 2012-04-08 13:13:46 <blinkbat> thank you
805 2012-04-08 13:14:12 <luke-jr> 90% likely it will be within the next 11 hours
806 2012-04-08 13:14:37 <blinkbat> 11 hours!
807 2012-04-08 13:14:39 <blinkbat> lol
808 2012-04-08 13:14:44 <blinkbat> i guess its better than nothing
809 2012-04-08 13:14:54 <luke-jr> I expect sooner, but probability is what it is.
810 2012-04-08 13:15:41 <luke-jr> probably 50% chance within 3 hours or so
811 2012-04-08 13:17:37 <blinkbat> im more convinced than ever that bitcoin needs p2pool
812 2012-04-08 13:17:54 <blinkbat> the major pools have way too much power
813 2012-04-08 13:18:07 <t7> yeah!
814 2012-04-08 13:18:16 <t7> down with all that!
815 2012-04-08 13:18:45 <blinkbat> we also needs a decentralised exchange... ala mintchip
816 2012-04-08 13:18:57 <DrHaribo> blinkbat: How would p2pool help in this situation?
817 2012-04-08 13:19:04 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
818 2012-04-08 13:19:52 <blinkbat> because im betting at least a substantial minority of people will be nice enough to include transactions for no fees
819 2012-04-08 13:19:52 <luke-jr> blinkbat: p2pool is not the only pool that solves this.
820 2012-04-08 13:19:57 <blinkbat> i donno... maybe im wrong
821 2012-04-08 13:20:09 <blinkbat> ozco.in?
822 2012-04-08 13:20:12 <luke-jr> blinkbat: no
823 2012-04-08 13:20:23 <luke-jr> BitPenny, p2pool, and Eligius (in that order of enabling it)
824 2012-04-08 13:20:39 <blinkbat> how do bitpenny and eligius solve it?
825 2012-04-08 13:20:49 <luke-jr> blinkbat: more importantly, no miners on any of those pools allow free transactions with low amounts
826 2012-04-08 13:20:51 <luke-jr> nor should they :p
827 2012-04-08 13:21:08 <DrHaribo> p2pool allows transactions not allowed by bitcoind by default?
828 2012-04-08 13:21:10 <luke-jr> blinkbat: same way p2pool does: the miners run a local server to generate their own work
829 2012-04-08 13:21:15 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: no
830 2012-04-08 13:21:18 <DrHaribo> s/allows/includes/
831 2012-04-08 13:21:25 <DrHaribo> then it doesn't fix it
832 2012-04-08 13:21:48 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: they fix the "pool has too much power over Bitcoin" problem
833 2012-04-08 13:21:54 <blinkbat> im just worried about bitcoin being monopolized by some asswhole, who charges an arm and a leg to do any kinda transaction :P
834 2012-04-08 13:21:55 <DrHaribo> luke-jr could help you because he has a medium size pool rather than a solo miner. With p2pool you would be out of luck.
835 2012-04-08 13:22:03 <luke-jr> they don't fix the "bitcoind maintainers have too much power over Bitcoin" problem
836 2012-04-08 13:22:22 <luke-jr> blinkbat: if anyone monopolizes Bitcoin, it fails pretty much
837 2012-04-08 13:22:24 <DrHaribo> Do you want to ask every single miner on p2pool to include your transaction that doesn't meet bitcoind rules?
838 2012-04-08 13:22:29 <luke-jr> blinkbat: that's *why* mining is hard
839 2012-04-08 13:23:11 <blinkbat> bitcoind maintainers have no power, the people who run it have all the power
840 2012-04-08 13:23:23 <blinkbat> but meh, ive made my point
841 2012-04-08 13:23:25 <blinkbat> ill shutup now
842 2012-04-08 13:25:04 <luke-jr> blinkbat: bitcoind maintainers are the authority that caused your problem today (from the acceptance side).
843 2012-04-08 13:25:18 <luke-jr> not any pools, not p2pool, etc
844 2012-04-08 13:25:49 <luke-jr> the fact is, that right now, bitcoind maintainers determine the fee rules used by 99% of the network
845 2012-04-08 13:26:12 <blinkbat> oh
846 2012-04-08 13:27:27 <sipa> the plan is change that over time, though
847 2012-04-08 13:27:55 <sipa> the fee policy exists because of spam protection currently, not as mining income
848 2012-04-08 13:28:07 <sipa> that will hopefully also change
849 2012-04-08 13:28:30 <blinkbat> lol, tell luke-jr that :P
850 2012-04-08 13:28:38 <blinkbat> he wanted to charge me 0.01 just to authorise a payment of 0.04
851 2012-04-08 13:28:41 <TD> decentralized exchange is hard but do-able
852 2012-04-08 13:28:55 <blinkbat> not even paypal is that bad
853 2012-04-08 13:28:56 <Blitzboom> decentralized exchange sounds like something that will never gain any traction
854 2012-04-08 13:29:25 <DrHaribo> blinkbat: luke-jr used his evil pool power to bend the rules for you. I don't think you should see him as the bad guy here.
855 2012-04-08 13:29:33 <blinkbat> i dont
856 2012-04-08 13:29:36 <blinkbat> i see the system as the bad guy
857 2012-04-08 13:29:52 <blinkbat> and that worries me because with bitcoin i was looking to the future
858 2012-04-08 13:29:59 <blinkbat> im just trying to extrapolate where things are heading
859 2012-04-08 13:30:02 <blinkbat> and they dont look great
860 2012-04-08 13:30:22 <sipa> where do you see a problem?
861 2012-04-08 13:30:32 <DrHaribo> Well, what is the plan for fees? sipa?
862 2012-04-08 13:30:51 <Graet> using blockchain.info's vwallet i see as a problem
863 2012-04-08 13:31:03 <Graet> more trhan a few ppl have had issues
864 2012-04-08 13:31:05 <TD> blinkbat: it's something the market will resolve over time. take the long view. bitcoin is a long term project. personally i don't think most end users of bitcoin will ever pay fees, ever, because network security will be funded by automatically negotiated assurance contracts
865 2012-04-08 13:31:10 <TD> but that's a minority view, i think :)
866 2012-04-08 13:31:24 <sipa> DrHaribo: first allow clients to revert a transaction that conflicts with the blockchain or doesn't seem to confirm
867 2012-04-08 13:31:32 <blinkbat> automatically negotiated assurance contracts?
868 2012-04-08 13:32:03 <sipa> DrHaribo: next step is making the relay/block policy more configurable
869 2012-04-08 13:32:37 <sipa> the hardest part is making the client suggest a reasonable fee, based on network statistics
870 2012-04-08 13:33:42 <DrHaribo> That does look like a good way forward :)
871 2012-04-08 13:33:46 <luke-jr> [09:27:28] <blinkbat> he wanted to charge me 0.01 just to authorise a payment of 0.04 <-- that was because I was seeing 0.01 BTC as the smallest I could ask
872 2012-04-08 13:34:04 <sipa> and in the very long term, i believe a payment protocol on top of bitcoin, where merchants have deals with transaction processors whom clients send their transactions to and insure against double spends, so payers dont see fees at all anymore
873 2012-04-08 13:34:22 <luke-jr> blinkbat: blockchain.info really should negotiate some miner contracts IMO
874 2012-04-08 13:34:27 <sipa> but that is my personal opinion
875 2012-04-08 13:34:41 <blinkbat> im not blaming you luke-jr, its your pool... my point is, in the future, am i gonna be held ransom to whatever pool happens to be dominating bitcoin just to send my bitcoins around the network
876 2012-04-08 13:35:08 Joric has joined
877 2012-04-08 13:35:46 <sipa> blinkbat: the only one who cares about the transaction being in the blockchain, is the receiver, and only in the case he does not trust the sender
878 2012-04-08 13:35:47 <luke-jr> blinkbat: I recently wrote a patch to allow miners more control over the fees they require. Combined with decentralized mining (BitPenny, p2pool, Eligius), this moves fee stuff back to miners, without necessarily breaking the existing model either
879 2012-04-08 13:36:24 <luke-jr> blinkbat: also, I believe your txn should be confirmed.
880 2012-04-08 13:36:38 <blinkbat> sipa: thats not the case when theyre trading and the receiver insists on 6 confirms
881 2012-04-08 13:36:45 <blinkbat> sipa: in that case, its in the buyers interest
882 2012-04-08 13:37:42 <sipa> blinkbat: as said before, merchants will just make a deal with miners and/or insurance firms to deal with reversed transactions
883 2012-04-08 13:38:20 <blinkbat> blinkbat: i somehow dont see that working if what your buying is like a house or private jet
884 2012-04-08 13:38:21 <sipa> blinkbat: people don't wait a month to get their food in a restaurant when paying with a credit card either
885 2012-04-08 13:38:45 <blinkbat> how can an insurer insure more than small transactions?
886 2012-04-08 13:38:46 <sipa> for that kind of sum, nobody cares about waiting an hour
887 2012-04-08 13:39:09 <blinkbat> ok
888 2012-04-08 13:39:19 <sipa> but you're right, there are two different problems
889 2012-04-08 13:39:38 <TD> blinkbat: yes. see the wiki.
890 2012-04-08 13:40:01 <TD> blinkbat: a network assurance contract basically says "i will contribute X BTC to network security if other people contribute enough to make it to at least Y BTC"
891 2012-04-08 13:40:22 <TD> blinkbat: the idea here is to solve the free rider problem. if you attach fees to your transactions, other people benefit from the security you pay for even if they attach no fees
892 2012-04-08 13:40:37 <TD> blinkbat: by allowing automatic "clubbing together" there are features in the bitcoin protocol that can solve this issue
893 2012-04-08 13:40:54 <TD> people who care about high network speeds would automatically keep them there. for everyone else it'd be "ok" for them to be free riders as long as blocks don't get enormous
894 2012-04-08 13:41:00 <blinkbat> ok, im so tired right now i dont understand what your trying to say... but it sounds good
895 2012-04-08 13:42:32 <TD> my explanation wasn't very clear
896 2012-04-08 13:42:39 <TD> suffice it to say, i think most normal end users won't typically be attaching fees
897 2012-04-08 13:42:50 <TD> large market makers like mt gox and other merchants will
898 2012-04-08 13:42:56 <TD> so don't worry about the fee issue too much
899 2012-04-08 13:43:05 <blinkbat> ok im cool
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919 2012-04-08 14:47:36 <lordcirth> Anyone know why Armory (latest version, Kubuntu) is giving me a seg fault?
920 2012-04-08 14:49:20 JRWR is now known as HatOfNotch
921 2012-04-08 14:49:44 HatOfNotch is now known as JRWR
922 2012-04-08 14:53:42 <sipa> lordcirth: etotheipi_ may know :)
923 2012-04-08 14:54:08 <lordcirth> sipa: I would hope so, anyway
924 2012-04-08 14:55:33 <lordcirth> /home/lordcirth/.bitcoin/blk0001.dat is 1121.03 MB
925 2012-04-08 14:55:33 <lordcirth> Segmentation fault
926 2012-04-08 14:55:46 <lordcirth> oops
927 2012-04-08 14:56:55 Rabbit67890 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
928 2012-04-08 14:58:54 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: ack!
929 2012-04-08 14:58:58 TransistOrg has joined
930 2012-04-08 14:59:04 <etotheipi_> whoa OS?
931 2012-04-08 14:59:07 <etotheipi_> what RAM?
932 2012-04-08 15:00:07 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
933 2012-04-08 15:01:05 <lordcirth> It says: /home/lordcirth/.bitcoin/blk0001.dat is 1121.03 MB
934 2012-04-08 15:01:34 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Then it seg faults
935 2012-04-08 15:01:40 Transisto has joined
936 2012-04-08 15:01:43 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: what OS and how much RAM?
937 2012-04-08 15:02:52 <etotheipi_> you are the first segfault report!
938 2012-04-08 15:03:11 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Kubuntu 11, 8 GB
939 2012-04-08 15:03:25 TransistOrg has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
940 2012-04-08 15:03:29 <etotheipi_> I assume, 64-bit OS?
941 2012-04-08 15:03:58 dr_win has joined
942 2012-04-08 15:04:13 <lordcirth> etothepi_: yes, 64, sry
943 2012-04-08 15:04:28 <etotheipi_> I bet there's something in your blk0001.dat file that is messing it up
944 2012-04-08 15:04:36 <etotheipi_> though, I don't know what that would be
945 2012-04-08 15:05:04 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: does it work in testnet?
946 2012-04-08 15:05:21 <lordcirth> etothepi_:Like what, and how do I fix it?
947 2012-04-08 15:05:51 <lordcirth> etothepi_; I'll check
948 2012-04-08 15:06:03 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Do I have to run bitcoind in testnet, to do that?
949 2012-04-08 15:07:52 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: have you ever run bitcoind on testnet before?
950 2012-04-08 15:08:33 <lordcirth> etothepi_: No, but I just did. Armory boots fine
951 2012-04-08 15:09:08 <lordcirth> etothepi_: I assume its way out of sync tho
952 2012-04-08 15:09:11 <etotheipi_> how big did it say was the blk0001.dat?
953 2012-04-08 15:09:59 <lordcirth> etothepi_: 1121.03 MB
954 2012-04-08 15:10:10 <etotheipi_> not 1121 MB on testnet...
955 2012-04-08 15:10:21 <etotheipi_> wait...
956 2012-04-08 15:10:36 <etotheipi_> you ran Armory the same as before?
957 2012-04-08 15:10:38 <lordcirth> etothepi_: oh, I thought u meant bitcoin
958 2012-04-08 15:11:05 <etotheipi_> is this what you did? ran bitcoind on testnet, then loaded Armory regularly? (without --testnet)
959 2012-04-08 15:11:15 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Testnet is still syncing,
960 2012-04-08 15:11:28 <etotheipi_> that's fine... but you reloaded Armory... with or without --testnet?
961 2012-04-08 15:11:56 <lordcirth> etothepi_: No, its still running testnet. bitcoind is still syncing testnet bc I've never done it b4
962 2012-04-08 15:12:24 <lordcirth> etothepi_: I'll try running again w/o testnet
963 2012-04-08 15:13:50 mmoya has joined
964 2012-04-08 15:14:18 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Segmentation fault
965 2012-04-08 15:14:48 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Should I delete blk001.dat and resync?
966 2012-04-08 15:15:59 erle- has joined
967 2012-04-08 15:16:01 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: lordcirth you can run bitcoind in testnet or mainnet, and Armory in testnet or mainnet... I can't tell which combination you did
968 2012-04-08 15:16:49 <etotheipi_> (unfortunately I think it's "-testnet" for bitcoind, and "--testnet" for Armory)
969 2012-04-08 15:16:58 <lordcirth> etothepi_: with both in mainnet, it seg faults. with both in testnet, it works fine. if mismatched, it gives an error popup
970 2012-04-08 15:17:06 Nicksasa has joined
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974 2012-04-08 15:17:29 <etotheipi_> the error popup is the "do you want offline?" warning message?
975 2012-04-08 15:17:45 <lordcirth> etothepi_: So like u said, it might be choking on something in the blockchain
976 2012-04-08 15:17:52 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Yes
977 2012-04-08 15:18:02 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: if you don't mind, I'm curious if it works if you delete the mainnet blk0001.dat and let it resync
978 2012-04-08 15:18:16 <etotheipi_> though that could take a while... at least it's much faster with 0.6.0 than it used to be
979 2012-04-08 15:18:28 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Couldn;t find Satoshi client, etc
980 2012-04-08 15:19:03 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Ok I'll give it a shot
981 2012-04-08 15:19:10 theboos has joined
982 2012-04-08 15:23:15 <lordcirth> etothepi_: It works now! The blockchain hasn't synced much tho, it might die later
983 2012-04-08 15:24:42 occulta has joined
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985 2012-04-08 15:28:01 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: what I'm afraid of is that somehow the size of the blockchain is the cause, not something in the blk0001.dat
986 2012-04-08 15:28:36 <etotheipi_> though I'm running Ubuntu 10.04 with 16 GB and it works fine...
987 2012-04-08 15:28:43 <sipa> maybe a 32-bit OS?
988 2012-04-08 15:28:48 <etotheipi_> I'll re-sync and retest on some of my reduced-power VMs
989 2012-04-08 15:29:17 <Diablo-D3> what?
990 2012-04-08 15:30:23 <etotheipi_> just issues with mmap'ing the blk0001.dat file
991 2012-04-08 15:30:34 dr_win has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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993 2012-04-08 15:33:32 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Would a specific size, say 1024 MB, crash the code? bc 8 GB RAM should be fine with a 1121 MB blockchain
994 2012-04-08 15:33:46 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: it's more to do with 32-bit vs 64-bit
995 2012-04-08 15:34:06 <etotheipi_> I'm actually suprised that the mmap'ing works in 32-bit linux... it doesn't work in 32-bit Windows
996 2012-04-08 15:34:53 <etotheipi_> I use something called "mmap" which uses virtual memory: 64-bit systems have like 4 billion GB of virtual address space (so it will only fail once the blockchain starts to get that big)
997 2012-04-08 15:35:25 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Well, we're both using 64-bit, right?
998 2012-04-08 15:35:32 <lordcirth> etothepi_: everything works in Linux, if you do it right. lol
999 2012-04-08 15:35:50 <etotheipi_> I'm about to test it on my 32-bit Ubuntu
1000 2012-04-08 15:36:07 <lordcirth> etothepi: virtual memory? I don't have swap initialized!
1001 2012-04-08 15:36:39 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: you don't have any swap!
1002 2012-04-08 15:36:42 <etotheipi_> ?
1003 2012-04-08 15:36:44 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Should I initialize swap and retry?
1004 2012-04-08 15:37:15 <sipa> lordcirth: how much RAM do you have?
1005 2012-04-08 15:37:30 <lordcirth> etothepi: It's formatted, but the installer commented it out of fstab, I believe. 8 GB
1006 2012-04-08 15:37:48 <etotheipi_> I mean, one point of using mmap is to use the blk0001.dat file already on disk instead of swap... but it wouldn't surprise me if that had something to do with it
1007 2012-04-08 15:37:50 <sipa> 8 GB should be more than enough
1008 2012-04-08 15:38:16 <lordcirth> sipa: Exactly, thats why swap is disabled
1009 2012-04-08 15:38:46 <lordcirth> etothepi_: I don't think I've ever hit 4GB on any Linux
1010 2012-04-08 15:38:49 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: wait until the blockchain syncs again and try it both ways
1011 2012-04-08 15:39:26 <etotheipi_> I have 16 GB of RAM... yet my system always seems to be using at aleast a little bit of swap
1012 2012-04-08 15:39:33 <Diablo-D3> swap is evil
1013 2012-04-08 15:39:35 <Diablo-D3> etotheipi_: well, no
1014 2012-04-08 15:39:38 <Diablo-D3> thats not true
1015 2012-04-08 15:39:46 <lordcirth> etothepi_: That's what I'm thinking, if armory crashes as it syncs I'll try swap, if not it Dled wrong last time
1016 2012-04-08 15:39:48 <Diablo-D3> the system pre-swaps pages to swap
1017 2012-04-08 15:39:53 <Diablo-D3> the writing isnt whats bad
1018 2012-04-08 15:39:57 <Diablo-D3> its the READING thats bad
1019 2012-04-08 15:44:19 JRWR has quit (Quit: "If the dinosaurs had a space program, they'd still be here." - Ron Garan)
1020 2012-04-08 15:44:44 <etotheipi_> so it still works on Ubuntu 32-bit with 1 GB of RAM... it successfully maps the whole 1.1 GB file
1021 2012-04-08 15:45:14 <etotheipi_> I'm not even sure how it does that! shouldn't 32-bit OSes have less than 1GB of virtual memory space for stuff like this?
1022 2012-04-08 15:45:30 theboos has joined
1023 2012-04-08 15:46:04 <sipa> each process has a 4GiB address space
1024 2012-04-08 15:46:37 <etotheipi_> sipa: that must be unix-specific... because it definitely fails on Windows due to "insufficient memory to complete the operation"
1025 2012-04-08 15:47:42 <sipa> windows has a very different memory model, afaik
1026 2012-04-08 15:48:00 <sipa> 1G/3G split between kernel and userspace, afaik
1027 2012-04-08 15:48:01 <Yearty> will be a good site: www.bitcoinstarter.com/discover.php
1028 2012-04-08 15:48:05 erle- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1029 2012-04-08 15:49:02 <etotheipi_> sipa: so that probably means Armory will stop working on 32-bit Linux once there's more than a combined 3GB of blockchain
1030 2012-04-08 15:49:54 <sipa> shouldn't be hard to test whether a +3GiB file can be mmapped.
1031 2012-04-08 15:50:10 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: blinkbat: Did either one of you think to go yell at blockchain.info for allowing users to unwittingly make transactions which will probably never confirm on their own?
1032 2012-04-08 15:50:35 <blinkbat> tbh no gmaxwell, not yet
1033 2012-04-08 15:50:50 <blinkbat> thats not the only flaw in blockchain.info lol
1034 2012-04-08 15:51:32 <gmaxwell> blinkbat: please do that. The mandatory fees for small outputs is not going awayâ otherwise a single commandline could DOS bitcoin into unusuablity. But its especially bad on blockchain.info because unlike a local wallet you can't abort the transaction.
1035 2012-04-08 15:51:42 <gmaxwell> (which isn't easy to do locally, but it's possible at least)
1036 2012-04-08 15:52:16 <blinkbat> gmaxwell: i dont get why 1 small output in a given transaction makes the entire transaction have a mandatory fee
1037 2012-04-08 15:52:27 <blinkbat> i could be sending 10btc to guy a, 20 btc to guy b and 0.0001 btc to guy c
1038 2012-04-08 15:52:35 <blinkbat> and all of a sudden its a small transaction that needs fees
1039 2012-04-08 15:53:08 <sipa> blinkbat: you could just as well be sending 0.000001 to guy A, and 99.999999 to yourself.
1040 2012-04-08 15:53:11 <blinkbat> actually i do get it, but it didnt make sense at the time
1041 2012-04-08 15:53:26 <sipa> that would make it very very easy to spam te network
1042 2012-04-08 15:53:50 <blinkbat> the problem is, bitcoin sometimes behaves in wierd counter-intuitive ways
1043 2012-04-08 15:53:51 <gmaxwell> Yea, unfortunately its a bit hard to understand. The rules make a fair bit of sense, but they aren't obvious without thought.
1044 2012-04-08 15:53:55 <blinkbat> and i dont think many of the users fully understand it
1045 2012-04-08 15:54:01 <sipa> and the network cannot and should not know which is the payment and which is the change
1046 2012-04-08 15:54:55 <gmaxwell> Fortunately the clients can just handle figuring this out for the users.. and anti-dos fees can be quite small (e.g. 0.0005) and still be effective.
1047 2012-04-08 15:55:22 <theboos> I haven't opened a bitcoin client in 6 months. Per the motd, is there a known vuln with previous versions?
1048 2012-04-08 15:55:56 <blinkbat> theboos: look at the topic
1049 2012-04-08 15:56:08 <gmaxwell> The reference client simply won't generate such a transactionâ it'll avoid having >0.01 change, and it'll add a 0.0005 fee (while telling you) if there are outputs under 0.01 (though it could do better in avoiding fees)
1050 2012-04-08 15:56:41 <sipa> theboos: which version is that?
1051 2012-04-08 15:56:42 <blinkbat> gmaxwell: so in theory, its possible that the transaction is quite large, but teh change is small and a fee is still generated?
1052 2012-04-08 15:56:54 <blinkbat> ie, i have 500.00001 btc and i send 500 to someone else
1053 2012-04-08 15:57:20 <blinkbat> s/theory/practice
1054 2012-04-08 15:57:25 <theboos> Whichever was current in about June 2011
1055 2012-04-08 15:57:29 <gmaxwell> theboos: older versions of bitcoin-qt on windows (and only windows) have a crash bug that might be possible to exploit, though we're no aware of any exploitation in the wild.
1056 2012-04-08 15:57:44 <gmaxwell> blinkbat: nope, because it will just not take the change thereâ it'll give up the change as fee.
1057 2012-04-08 15:57:57 <sipa> theboos: that would be 0.3.23
1058 2012-04-08 15:58:04 <gmaxwell> blinkbat: (and tell you that it's going to pay a 0.00001 fee)
1059 2012-04-08 15:58:24 <blinkbat> ok, what if it was 500.0000000001
1060 2012-04-08 15:58:29 <blinkbat> that amount of a fee isnt enough
1061 2012-04-08 15:58:29 <sipa> same thing
1062 2012-04-08 15:58:39 <theboos> Sounds familiar. How does an older client harm the network?
1063 2012-04-08 15:58:50 <sipa> blinkbat: it would not create a change, hence no fee would be required
1064 2012-04-08 15:58:57 <gmaxwell> blinkbat: sure it isâ well you have too many zeros, that amount is impossibleâ but what sipa says.
1065 2012-04-08 15:59:18 <blinkbat> where does the 0.0000000001 go then?
1066 2012-04-08 15:59:23 <gmaxwell> theboos: e.g. versions prior to 0.3.24 randomly hang up on nodes syncing the blockchain.
1067 2012-04-08 15:59:26 <sipa> blinkbat: to the fee
1068 2012-04-08 15:59:38 <sipa> blinkbat: it would create a fee instead of change
1069 2012-04-08 15:59:44 <blinkbat> urgh
1070 2012-04-08 15:59:45 <theboos> Ah got it.
1071 2012-04-08 15:59:48 <sipa> (but a fee that is not required)
1072 2012-04-08 15:59:50 <blinkbat> but thats no fair, im losing money
1073 2012-04-08 15:59:55 <blinkbat> i might have wanted my 1 satoshi
1074 2012-04-08 16:00:03 <blinkbat> and im sending a perfectly valid transaction which is quite large
1075 2012-04-08 16:00:11 <sipa> blinkbat: then find a miner who is willing to accept it
1076 2012-04-08 16:00:22 <sipa> or mine it yourself
1077 2012-04-08 16:00:25 <blinkbat> lol ok
1078 2012-04-08 16:00:28 <sipa> bitcoin is not fee
1079 2012-04-08 16:00:29 <sipa> *free
1080 2012-04-08 16:00:39 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@pool-71-252-154-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net|brwyatt
1081 2012-04-08 16:01:03 <gmaxwell> blinkbat: but if that were permitted by the system someone with a lot of bitcoin could make free transactions totally unsuable and bloat bitcoin to death, just by constantly sending ~500 btc with 1e-8 'change'
1082 2012-04-08 16:01:37 <gmaxwell> blinkbat: do you also freak out when you buy things at a store and the sales-tax or vat causes you to pay a half cent more?
1083 2012-04-08 16:02:14 <blinkbat> no
1084 2012-04-08 16:02:18 <blinkbat> ok meh nevermind
1085 2012-04-08 16:02:26 <gmaxwell> why worry about 0.000004 cents? :)
1086 2012-04-08 16:03:07 <gmaxwell> (plus, it's not like the fee is just destroyedâ it encourages miners to prioritize your transaction over free ones, and it rewards miners for providing security for the network)
1087 2012-04-08 16:03:59 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: cut to the chase
1088 2012-04-08 16:04:04 <lordcirth> etothepi: "New Block! : 103000, Segmentation fault"
1089 2012-04-08 16:04:05 <Diablo-D3> in the future, blocks will no longer have rewards
1090 2012-04-08 16:04:08 <Diablo-D3> it will be fees only
1091 2012-04-08 16:04:17 <Diablo-D3> no fees, no bitcoin.
1092 2012-04-08 16:05:03 <etotheipi_> lordcirth: don't open Armory until the blockchain is totally sync'd
1093 2012-04-08 16:05:19 <lordcirth> etothepi_: Ok
1094 2012-04-08 16:05:38 <etotheipi_> luckily, it only reads the blk0001.dat so it couldn't be responsible for corrupting blk0001.dat... but it does make me long for the day I can independent networking implemented
1095 2012-04-08 16:05:56 <lordcirth> etothepi_: I look forward to that too
1096 2012-04-08 16:07:03 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: in my mind at least, â miner imposed/security fees are not the same as anti-ddos fees. We don't have much need for the former now, but we do have as much need for the latter as we'll ever have.
1097 2012-04-08 16:07:46 <Diablo-D3> its still money either way
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1099 2012-04-08 16:15:01 <Joric> are there any shorter addresses?
1100 2012-04-08 16:15:34 <sipa> ?
1101 2012-04-08 16:15:51 <gmaxwell> Joric: shorter than? The base58 serialization is not constant length.
1102 2012-04-08 16:16:46 <Joric> sipa, oh, check this out, btw, pure js http://goo.gl/MA0lr
1103 2012-04-08 16:17:56 <Joric> gmaxwell, don't remember really, there were some starting from 2? no?
1104 2012-04-08 16:18:41 <sipa> Joric: BIP13 addresses start with a 3
1105 2012-04-08 16:18:47 <sipa> but are no shorter
1106 2012-04-08 16:18:52 <sipa> (on average)
1107 2012-04-08 16:20:53 <Joric> 'The leading version bytes are chosen so that, after base58 encoding, the leading character is consistent: for the main network, byte 5 becomes the character '3'. For the testnet, byte 196 is encoded into '2''
1108 2012-04-08 16:20:59 <Joric> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0013
1109 2012-04-08 16:21:13 <Joric> testnet means 2 then
1110 2012-04-08 16:21:38 <Joric> still 20 bytes
1111 2012-04-08 16:21:50 Cory has joined
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1113 2012-04-08 16:27:09 <Yearty> hi anyone have screenshots of how coincontrol feature will work?
1114 2012-04-08 16:29:32 <Joric> Yearty, it's been available for months https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24784.0, most probably i'll be merged as is
1115 2012-04-08 16:30:20 <Joric> https://github.com/coderrr/bitcoin/downloads 0.5.3.1/win32
1116 2012-04-08 16:30:43 <Yearty> thanks joric
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1128 2012-04-08 16:38:44 <UukGoblin> bah, who invented this byte reversals in merkle trees :-/
1129 2012-04-08 16:39:14 <Joric> russians
1130 2012-04-08 16:40:24 lordcirth has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1131 2012-04-08 16:41:06 <UukGoblin> the bastards!
1132 2012-04-08 16:43:25 denisx has joined
1133 2012-04-08 16:47:13 <Joric> whoa it IS opensource https://github.com/zootreeves/blockchain.info
1134 2012-04-08 16:48:40 <copumpkin> that doesn't appear to be the backend
1135 2012-04-08 16:48:51 <Joric> https://github.com/zootreeves/blockchain.info/blob/master/WalletServlet.java
1136 2012-04-08 16:50:13 <copumpkin> yeah, there's a lot more
1137 2012-04-08 16:50:33 <copumpkin> look at ths piuk.* imports up at the top
1138 2012-04-08 16:50:36 <Joric> yeah you're right
1139 2012-04-08 16:51:07 <copumpkin> still cool, though
1140 2012-04-08 16:51:16 <copumpkin> I kind of want to give him some code suggestions now :P
1141 2012-04-08 16:51:20 <copumpkin> since a few things jump out at me
1142 2012-04-08 16:51:42 <copumpkin> also, ugh java :)
1143 2012-04-08 16:51:42 <Joric> like what?
1144 2012-04-08 16:52:07 <copumpkin> he keeps preparing statements every time he uses them, rather than just doing that once
1145 2012-04-08 16:52:33 <copumpkin> it doesn't hurt, but you might as well just do it once
1146 2012-04-08 16:55:50 <blinkbat> lol
1147 2012-04-08 17:02:27 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I did.
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1150 2012-04-08 17:04:03 <UukGoblin> in MM specs, the aux proof-of-work, the second field - merkle_link - how do I know what I should hash on the left and what on the right?
1151 2012-04-08 17:04:20 <UukGoblin> I understand this is meant to link the coinbase transaction up to the block's hash?
1152 2012-04-08 17:07:09 <UukGoblin> and how would I use it? I presume I start with double-sha256ing the generation transaction, but then what? And what do I reverse?
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1156 2012-04-08 17:28:19 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, i would suggest reading the code but that particular piece of code is very academicy
1157 2012-04-08 17:32:39 <UukGoblin> phantomcircuit, well yeah, that'll be the last resort if IRC fails ;-)
1158 2012-04-08 17:34:26 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, iirc it's
1159 2012-04-08 17:34:34 <phantomcircuit> left + right
1160 2012-04-08 17:34:38 <phantomcircuit> then builds up
1161 2012-04-08 17:34:56 <phantomcircuit> but the code doesn't actually build a merkle tree it just builds the root hash
1162 2012-04-08 17:35:20 <phantomcircuit> so it walks the array in the same order you would walk a tree
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1167 2012-04-08 17:42:39 <nonserviam> anybody here familiar with the mtgox api?
1168 2012-04-08 17:42:50 dvide has joined
1169 2012-04-08 17:43:24 <Graet> #mtgox or ##mtgox-chat would
1170 2012-04-08 17:43:44 <nonserviam> @Graet cool, thx
1171 2012-04-08 17:43:50 TransistOrg has joined
1172 2012-04-08 17:43:52 <Graet> :)
1173 2012-04-08 17:43:54 <Diablo-D3> and now we will set a bag of dongs on peoples heads to sort them into appropriate frat houses
1174 2012-04-08 17:44:06 <Diablo-D3> a talking bag of dongs.
1175 2012-04-08 17:44:40 * Diablo-D3 holds up a miniature president george w bush
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1183 2012-04-08 18:16:03 <UukGoblin> phantomcircuit, what I need is to link a coinbase transaction up to a block's hash
1184 2012-04-08 18:16:26 <UukGoblin> I thought that's what this merkle_link field is for
1185 2012-04-08 18:16:40 <UukGoblin> I may be wrong though
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1192 2012-04-08 18:39:56 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: cardpuncher opened issue 1061 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1061>
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1196 2012-04-08 18:55:57 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: cardpuncher opened issue 1062 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1062>
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1202 2012-04-08 19:11:14 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: cardpuncher opened issue 1063 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1063>
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1207 2012-04-08 19:21:20 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: cardpuncher opened issue 1064 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1064>
1208 2012-04-08 19:23:46 Joric has joined
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1210 2012-04-08 19:26:31 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened issue 1065 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1065>
1211 2012-04-08 19:30:59 <Joric> see what you've done
1212 2012-04-08 19:31:00 <Joric> <rulssie> my bitcoin app seems to be stuck at "synchronizing with the network" :o
1213 2012-04-08 19:31:00 <Joric> <rulssie> like 6 minutes i think
1214 2012-04-08 19:31:08 <Joric> <rulssie> restarted now
1215 2012-04-08 19:31:38 <[Tycho]> :)))
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1219 2012-04-08 19:34:07 <Joric> how about implementing headers-only mode in a reference client
1220 2012-04-08 19:37:02 <Joric> but seriously, that's how an average user takes it
1221 2012-04-08 19:38:15 <sipa> Joric: that's planned
1222 2012-04-08 19:38:46 cande has joined
1223 2012-04-08 19:39:45 <etotheipi_> unfortunately, that makes it pretty much impossible to import private keys
1224 2012-04-08 19:41:37 elkingrey has joined
1225 2012-04-08 19:42:41 <Joric> etotheipi_, check this out http://goo.gl/MA0lr bitcoinjs-lib + a few lines of code
1226 2012-04-08 19:44:39 <[Tycho]> Amazing, that P2SH trap still works :)
1227 2012-04-08 19:45:08 <Joric> [Tycho], keeping MM away?
1228 2012-04-08 19:45:33 <[Tycho]> I don't think it's MM, but someone is catching it. http://blockchain.info/tx-index/3618498/4005d6bea3a93fb72f006d23e2685b85069d270cb57d15f0c057ef2d5e3f78d2
1229 2012-04-08 19:46:30 <[Tycho]> Last one was 3 min ago
1230 2012-04-08 19:48:52 <sturles> ;;bc,stats
1231 2012-04-08 19:48:54 <gribble> Current Blocks: 174832 | Current Difficulty: 1626553.4813289 | Next Difficulty At Block: 175391 | Next Difficulty In: 559 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 5 hours, 33 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1556295.63182076 | Estimated Percent Change: -4.31943064366
1232 2012-04-08 19:49:20 <sturles> Having some impact on difficulty as well. :-)
1233 2012-04-08 19:49:33 <[Tycho]> Do anyone knows how p2sh-multisig redeeming works ?
1234 2012-04-08 19:55:21 <sipa> [Tycho]: can you be more specific?
1235 2012-04-08 19:56:48 <[Tycho]> Pointing to appropriate part of bitcoind source will be enough.
1236 2012-04-08 19:57:25 <[Tycho]> Yesterday I tried redeeming normal P2SH and now I'm thinking about P2SH-multisig.
1237 2012-04-08 19:58:40 <sipa> [Tycho]: all BIP16 does is move the normal scriptPubKey to scriptSig (in its final push), and put a special marker in scriptPubKey instead
1238 2012-04-08 19:59:13 <[Tycho]> I never tried redeeming plain multisigs too.
1239 2012-04-08 19:59:30 <[Tycho]> I don't think that my bitcoind can do that.
1240 2012-04-08 20:02:14 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1241 2012-04-08 20:02:58 <[Tycho]> Ok, at least tell me since which version bitcoind supports multisig redeeming ?
1242 2012-04-08 20:03:09 <sipa> 0.6.0
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1245 2012-04-08 20:04:50 <[Tycho]> Was it some specific commit ?
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1262 2012-04-08 21:16:32 <MasterChief> https://bitcoin.org.uk/forums/topic/486-announcement-a-public-company-is-being-formed-to-enter-asic-bitcoin-mining-marketplace/
1263 2012-04-08 21:16:38 <MasterChief> wow here we go
1264 2012-04-08 21:16:47 <MasterChief> decentralised bitcoin? ha!
1265 2012-04-08 21:18:10 <sturles> It is still going to be decentralized. If his hashrate get to high, he ends up competing with himself in only increasing difficulty.
1266 2012-04-08 21:19:42 <MasterChief> economics isnt the only consideration
1267 2012-04-08 21:19:45 <sturles> At some point investing in more mining equipment just don't pay off because it increases difficulty to much.
1268 2012-04-08 21:19:54 <MasterChief> infact its the least important one
1269 2012-04-08 21:20:19 <MasterChief> mining capability needs to come back to the vanilla client in some form
1270 2012-04-08 21:20:35 <sturles> It is there.
1271 2012-04-08 21:20:51 <sturles> The RPC command is "setgenerate true"
1272 2012-04-08 21:22:06 <MasterChief> im not talking about just straight up 24/7 cpu mining
1273 2012-04-08 21:22:23 <MasterChief> something cleverer than that, like an insurance policy maybe
1274 2012-04-08 21:23:11 <forsetifox> He's going for some multiple of peta hertz. O.o
1275 2012-04-08 21:23:26 <MasterChief> no, asics
1276 2012-04-08 21:23:37 <MasterChief> hz doesnt mean much
1277 2012-04-08 21:23:47 <MasterChief> did say thashes though
1278 2012-04-08 21:24:00 <forsetifox> Oh, read it wrong. Heh.
1279 2012-04-08 21:24:14 <forsetifox> "Our target is to build multi Thps (X 000 000 Mhps) bitcoin mining operation and therefore we will have significant bargaining power and will be able to get preferential treatment and pricing from our suppliers."
1280 2012-04-08 21:24:43 <MasterChief> i fucking knew it would come to this
1281 2012-04-08 21:24:49 <MasterChief> datacenter mining ops
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1283 2012-04-08 21:26:00 <gmaxwell> People have (falsely?) made claims like this for over a year without it coming to fruition. Presumably anyone competent enough to pull it of would realize that large mining consolidation would risk undermining confidence in bitcoin and thus making their investment worthless.
1284 2012-04-08 21:26:38 <MasterChief> you really think it wont happen eventually?
1285 2012-04-08 21:27:27 <Joric> just tell me will it drive price up or down
1286 2012-04-08 21:27:56 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: it's not clear that the economics favor it, at least not strongly and at least not outside of the very short term.
1287 2012-04-08 21:27:57 <Joric> i'm not that into mining trading seems faster
1288 2012-04-08 21:28:16 <MasterChief> its not even about the economics
1289 2012-04-08 21:28:20 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: there is fairly little cosolidation benefit from mining, and you lose a lot of ability to put the waste heat to productive use.
1290 2012-04-08 21:28:28 <gmaxwell> stupid tab complete.
1291 2012-04-08 21:28:47 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: There is also no real moat against starting an operation.
1292 2012-04-08 21:30:53 <MasterChief> it hink perhaps there should be an insurance policy against consolidation
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1295 2012-04-08 21:31:54 <MasterChief> if this thing is gonna last, it needs to be many many nodes and not effectively 100 or so in various datacenters, for eg
1296 2012-04-08 21:32:00 <gmaxwell> There is oneâ are you going to trust a bitcoin that depends on a single corporation? What advantage would that have over trading with linden dollars or whateveR?
1297 2012-04-08 21:32:31 <MasterChief> thats naive
1298 2012-04-08 21:32:37 <MasterChief> lookat paypal......
1299 2012-04-08 21:32:48 <MasterChief> or fucking FB credits
1300 2012-04-08 21:33:24 <gmaxwell> What naive? Yes. People use those thingsâ and they're highly regulated, more or lessâ and still problematic. Bitcoin controlled by a single party would be pretty unappealing.
1301 2012-04-08 21:33:41 <gmaxwell> It would have all the centeralization risks of paypalâ and all the performance burdens of being p2p decenteralized.
1302 2012-04-08 21:33:45 <MasterChief> yeah, and then it will die
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1304 2012-04-08 21:34:00 <MasterChief> i have a few ideas man
1305 2012-04-08 21:34:05 <gmaxwell> Yep. So there is your insurance policy against consolidation.
1306 2012-04-08 21:34:22 <MasterChief> no, your are stuck int he economis box
1307 2012-04-08 21:34:23 <gmaxwell> Because if it dies their millions of dollars of asic investment become totally worthless.
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1309 2012-04-08 21:34:41 <MasterChief> you need to be thinking about how people attack the system
1310 2012-04-08 21:34:52 <MasterChief> the economics is a different thing
1311 2012-04-08 21:35:56 <gmaxwell> There are no different things.
1312 2012-04-08 21:36:14 <gmaxwell> There is but one universe, as far as we know, and everything is a part of it.
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1314 2012-04-08 21:36:25 <MasterChief> dont be obtuse man
1315 2012-04-08 21:37:23 <gmaxwell> I'm notâ in fact, amusingly, I think you're being obtuse. It's great to wave your arms and say things like "there should be an insurance policy against consolidation" but by itself that doesn't really mean anything.
1316 2012-04-08 21:37:40 <MasterChief> listen, perhaps there could be 'reserve' mining power built into the client by default, so that it would use say 10% of your CPU out of the box for mining, backed up by built-in P2pool to make it saner
1317 2012-04-08 21:37:53 <MasterChief> with the option to disable of course
1318 2012-04-08 21:38:00 <MasterChief> but most people wont
1319 2012-04-08 21:38:39 <MasterChief> and then, perhaps some logic to quickly up that duty cycle if there is a sudden fall off in block rate, for the security of the network
1320 2012-04-08 21:38:49 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately, turning back on a bunch of CPU mining isn't going to change the dynamic.
1321 2012-04-08 21:39:01 <gmaxwell> (and certantly not 10% load)
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1323 2012-04-08 21:39:16 <MasterChief> there will probably alsways be a handful of big mining ops at the center, but with enough small fuzzy mining at the edges they could be kept in line
1324 2012-04-08 21:39:27 <gmaxwell> Also, why do you think a fall off in blockrate is indicative of trouble?
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1326 2012-04-08 21:40:13 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: if a point of centeral control has less than a majority then there is little need of keeping them in line, and if they have a majority then there is nothing to be done (techically) to keep them in line.
1327 2012-04-08 21:40:14 <MasterChief> isnt that an attack vector? DOS some big pools and immediately bring on a huge amount of hidden malicious power
1328 2012-04-08 21:41:29 <MasterChief> right, so the point is to use reserve power to make sure no one ever has a majority
1329 2012-04-08 21:41:37 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: Less than you're thinkingâ the difficulty doesn't change quicky (partially for that reason). And pool dos attacks don't appear to reduce mining power much.
1330 2012-04-08 21:41:39 <MasterChief> P2Pool could enable this i think
1331 2012-04-08 21:42:15 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: under reasonable assumptions every node cpu mining wouldn't even make a dent in the total hash rate.
1332 2012-04-08 21:42:38 <MasterChief> not yet, cos there only like 25k nodes
1333 2012-04-08 21:43:17 <gmaxwell> Any force that caused there to be a great many more nodes would also increase the value of mining operations like that.
1334 2012-04-08 21:43:21 <MasterChief> look, im just worried about this consolidation of hashing, and thinking about the problem. Im sure weve talked about it before
1335 2012-04-08 21:43:59 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: Sure. But I believe you're barking up the wrong tree with the belief that we can employ technical solutions to improve it.
1336 2012-04-08 21:44:14 <MasterChief> trying to think about it from perspective other than the economics, you know they say some men just want to watch the world burn........
1337 2012-04-08 21:44:19 Clipse has quit (Quit: Clipse)
1338 2012-04-08 21:44:57 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: and they'll spend millions to do itâ and risk ending up in jail? Not likely. I don't think just-want-to-watch-the-world-burn is much of a threat now or in the immediate future.
1339 2012-04-08 21:45:36 <MasterChief> jail isnt a huge problem when youre a nation state, and niether is the money becuase its not yours, it sthe taxpayers
1340 2012-04-08 21:45:49 <MasterChief> im not talking about some kiddy hackers here man
1341 2012-04-08 21:46:04 <MasterChief> im talking about the same people who did stuxnet etc
1342 2012-04-08 21:46:06 <gmaxwell> You're changing your threat model randomly to suit the argument as far as I can tell.
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1344 2012-04-08 21:46:34 <gmaxwell> A moment ago it was "some men just want to watch the world burn", then it was nationstates.
1345 2012-04-08 21:46:38 <MasterChief> no, ive always been on about the govt. threat tot he system
1346 2012-04-08 21:46:41 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs::
1347 2012-04-08 21:47:00 <MasterChief> ok well i meant some gmen, better now?
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1349 2012-04-08 21:47:17 <sipa> the government has always easier ways to kill it
1350 2012-04-08 21:47:28 <sipa> like making its usage illegal
1351 2012-04-08 21:47:34 <gmaxwell> (Makor) Goverments wouldn't bitcoin by mining. They attack it by outlawing it, and pressuring their neighbors to outlaw it through trade deals. They'd attack it through negative PR too.
1352 2012-04-08 21:47:42 <gmaxwell> er s/Makor/Major/
1353 2012-04-08 21:47:58 <MasterChief> thats a given, thats why we have tor
1354 2012-04-08 21:48:22 Transisto has joined
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1356 2012-04-08 21:48:32 <gmaxwell> And perhaps if that wasn't effective enough, they'd march some big miners up on stage and execute them. Which would stop most mining right quick.. and then perhaps they'd do a little mining (with the siezed mining hardware) just to make it useless to the stragglers.
1357 2012-04-08 21:48:37 <MasterChief> thus far ive always assumed that the main client will integrate an onion layer and pepool someday
1358 2012-04-08 21:48:44 <MasterChief> p2pool
1359 2012-04-08 21:48:50 TransistOrg has joined
1360 2012-04-08 21:48:50 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is fundimentally highly public. It doesn't work as a hidden network.
1361 2012-04-08 21:49:00 <RedEmerald> Tor doesn't do p2p very well either
1362 2012-04-08 21:49:06 <gmaxwell> If you propose some future where bitcoin must be hidden you need a fundimentally different design.
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1364 2012-04-08 21:50:39 <MasterChief> wouldnt you atleast consider integrating p2pool and whicher best open source cpu/gpu miners there are?
1365 2012-04-08 21:50:58 <MasterChief> to atleast make mining somewhat accessible again
1366 2012-04-08 21:51:44 <gmaxwell> Oh I think thats a fantastic idea, though not yet because p2pool is not a done thing.
1367 2012-04-08 21:52:09 <MasterChief> cool, that makes me happy man
1368 2012-04-08 21:52:14 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: its even on the list of features I want to see in the software. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/features
1369 2012-04-08 21:52:43 <MasterChief> p2pools can be nested right? Because they can get too big i gather
1370 2012-04-08 21:52:46 <gmaxwell> I think it's useful because having small btc incomes for all users will make bitcoin easier to use. (and also make the anti-dos transaction fees less troubling)
1371 2012-04-08 21:53:02 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: no, not nested.. but split.
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1373 2012-04-08 21:53:50 <MasterChief> well yes split, as long as it can scale
1374 2012-04-08 21:53:59 <MasterChief> btw how does that work, who does the splitting
1375 2012-04-08 21:54:09 <RedEmerald> that part of p2pool isn't written yet
1376 2012-04-08 21:54:11 <gmaxwell> No one. It doesn't do that today.
1377 2012-04-08 21:54:22 <MasterChief> oh
1378 2012-04-08 21:54:35 <MasterChief> all in good time
1379 2012-04-08 21:55:59 <sipa> well, it doesn't sound too hard: just have two p2pool networks that do not connect to eachother
1380 2012-04-08 21:56:49 <MasterChief> that becomes hard if you want to do it without some sort of human "poolmaster"
1381 2012-04-08 21:57:11 <MasterChief> humans should have as little say in the system as possible right....
1382 2012-04-08 21:58:57 <gmaxwell> meh. not really.. just display a globe and have people pick which geographies p2pool they want to belong to.
1383 2012-04-08 21:59:19 <gmaxwell> and then autosize them based on their apparent hash rate (as measured against the bitcoin chain)
1384 2012-04-08 21:59:39 <gmaxwell> it's in your best interest to connect to your local geographies p2pool because of lower latency.
1385 2012-04-08 21:59:55 forsetifox has joined
1386 2012-04-08 22:00:01 Diapolo has joined
1387 2012-04-08 22:00:27 <Diapolo> hi
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1389 2012-04-08 22:01:36 <MasterChief> i would hope the pool slplitting could be done by the network somehow
1390 2012-04-08 22:01:44 <MasterChief> unless thats what you mean by autosize
1391 2012-04-08 22:02:56 <MasterChief> and when say, the europe pool gets too big, who splits it up?
1392 2012-04-08 22:02:58 <MasterChief> sounds messy
1393 2012-04-08 22:03:23 <gmaxwell> It doesn't sound especially hard to me.
1394 2012-04-08 22:03:45 <gmaxwell> Though .. it's hard to reason about until we know a bit more about what constitutes too big.
1395 2012-04-08 22:03:56 <MasterChief> not if someone does it manually
1396 2012-04-08 22:04:04 <gmaxwell> Well thats silly.
1397 2012-04-08 22:04:18 <MasterChief> yes thats my point
1398 2012-04-08 22:04:24 <gmaxwell> Technically p2pool can scale to the size of the whole network â it's only varience preference that drives splitting it.
1399 2012-04-08 22:04:44 <gmaxwell> variance*
1400 2012-04-08 22:04:47 <MasterChief> if you say it wont be too hard technically then i defer to your knowledge
1401 2012-04-08 22:04:59 <MasterChief> os i know probably 10x less than i make out sometimes lol
1402 2012-04-08 22:05:33 <gmaxwell> It doesn't worry me. The harder part is simply agreeing on the criteria.
1403 2012-04-08 22:06:57 <MasterChief> we wont know that unntil p2pool gains some real traction
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1405 2012-04-08 22:08:30 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: well, I don't know how to help it grow any more than it has. :(
1406 2012-04-08 22:09:16 <MasterChief> youd think people would join it for the good of bitcoin
1407 2012-04-08 22:09:28 <MasterChief> thats what i meant before, you can count on people being rational
1408 2012-04-08 22:09:33 <MasterChief> cant*
1409 2012-04-08 22:11:34 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: most people don't even know about it. There are also a lot of mistaken impressions about mining (e.g. people think it's a race where being part of the biggest pool increases your income)
1410 2012-04-08 22:12:18 <MasterChief> *cough* deepbit
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1412 2012-04-08 22:12:59 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: if you want to promote p2poolâ get a bunch of documentation on it and promotional materials translated into russian. :)
1413 2012-04-08 22:13:29 <MasterChief> brb learning cyrillic
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1415 2012-04-08 22:14:47 <MasterChief> p2pool prob wont really take off until its an invisible component of bitcoin-at tbh
1416 2012-04-08 22:15:01 <MasterChief> there should be no real reason for people to know it exists in general
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1420 2012-04-08 22:20:41 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: I don't know that making it a component of bitcoin-qt would help muchâ actually a problem in getting people using p2pool is a lot of miners aren't even running bitcoin-qt or only run it sometimes.
1421 2012-04-08 22:21:11 <gmaxwell> I had great success in getting people who were already solo mining to use p2pool though.
1422 2012-04-08 22:21:59 <MasterChief> people still solo mine?
1423 2012-04-08 22:22:29 <gmaxwell> Sure.
1424 2012-04-08 22:22:45 <gmaxwell> Though I suppose fewer since p2pool.
1425 2012-04-08 22:25:50 Joric has joined
1426 2012-04-08 22:26:08 <sipa> getwork mining < getmemorypool mining < p2pool mining < solo mining
1427 2012-04-08 22:26:30 <sipa> (the < just denote the degree of independence; not a judgement)
1428 2012-04-08 22:26:54 JRWR has joined
1429 2012-04-08 22:28:02 <gmaxwell> Don't tempt l u k e to argue. wrt getmemorypool/p2pool :)
1430 2012-04-08 22:31:56 <MasterChief> Start as a SPV (lite) client, validate to become a full node in the background
1431 2012-04-08 22:32:00 <MasterChief> ?????
1432 2012-04-08 22:32:39 <sipa> SPV client: the type of client bitcoinj/multibit implement
1433 2012-04-08 22:32:45 <sipa> no full block chain stored on disk
1434 2012-04-08 22:35:08 <MasterChief> how does it 'validate'
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1436 2012-04-08 22:35:30 <sipa> it simply assumes the longest blockchain is valid
1437 2012-04-08 22:35:43 <sipa> (which is not an easy thing to fake)
1438 2012-04-08 22:36:15 <MasterChief> oh
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1440 2012-04-08 22:43:57 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1066 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1066>
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1459 2012-04-08 23:32:15 <midnightmagic> yeh, of course people still solo mine. i do.
1460 2012-04-08 23:32:54 <copumpkin> :O
1461 2012-04-08 23:35:30 <sipa> i saw libcoin supports a protocol named natpmp
1462 2012-04-08 23:35:42 <sipa> anyone an idea how many routers support natpmp and not upnp?
1463 2012-04-08 23:36:06 <BlueMatt> afaik pretty much just apple ones
1464 2012-04-08 23:36:16 <BlueMatt> ie just airports
1465 2012-04-08 23:36:42 <sipa> it doesn't look hard to add support for it
1466 2012-04-08 23:36:50 <sipa> maybe only enable it by default in osx builds
1467 2012-04-08 23:37:05 <BlueMatt> we'd have to link to yet another lib...
1468 2012-04-08 23:37:07 <BlueMatt> afair
1469 2012-04-08 23:37:47 <sipa> i mean: only compile support for it in on osx
1470 2012-04-08 23:37:52 <sipa> by default
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1474 2012-04-08 23:52:02 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@pool-71-252-154-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net|brwyatt
1475 2012-04-08 23:58:16 <MasterChief> upnp is terrible
1476 2012-04-08 23:58:41 <BlueMatt> yes, but its what everyone uses so...
1477 2012-04-08 23:59:22 <MasterChief> no most doesnt even work properly
1478 2012-04-08 23:59:49 <TuxBlackEdo> some upnp is accessable externally
1479 2012-04-08 23:59:50 <BlueMatt> huh?