1 2012-04-09 00:00:00 <BlueMatt> yea, a ton of upnp is broken
2 2012-04-09 00:00:04 <BlueMatt> doesnt mean it doesnt work at all
3 2012-04-09 00:01:06 <MasterChief> holepunchin instead
4 2012-04-09 00:01:09 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
5 2012-04-09 00:01:31 <BlueMatt> yea, tcp hole punch
6 2012-04-09 00:01:42 <BlueMatt> ...
7 2012-04-09 00:02:28 <TuxBlackEdo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQoykhNoBbY&feature=player_detailpage#t=1548s
8 2012-04-09 00:02:31 <MasterChief> works sometimes
9 2012-04-09 00:02:34 <MasterChief> i think
10 2012-04-09 00:02:52 <TuxBlackEdo> 28C3: Black Ops of TCP/IP 2011 (en)
11 2012-04-09 00:03:03 <BlueMatt> what works, that talk has like 5 things in it?
12 2012-04-09 00:03:16 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah
13 2012-04-09 00:03:23 <TuxBlackEdo> he begins talking about bitcoin
14 2012-04-09 00:03:33 <TuxBlackEdo> and then talks about how UPNP sucks
15 2012-04-09 00:03:41 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
16 2012-04-09 00:04:14 <BlueMatt> everyone knows upnp sucks
17 2012-04-09 00:04:35 <sipa> it's a hack designed to circumvent another hack
18 2012-04-09 00:04:58 <BlueMatt> yep
19 2012-04-09 00:05:00 <BlueMatt> ipv6
20 2012-04-09 00:05:10 <sipa> actually, IGD is a hack designed to circumvent another hack (NAT)
21 2012-04-09 00:05:18 <BlueMatt> yea, so we should use ipv6
22 2012-04-09 00:05:26 <BlueMatt> (the real solution)
23 2012-04-09 00:05:35 <sipa> to make matters worse, it's built upon UPnP, which is afaik only used for IGD
24 2012-04-09 00:05:51 <Diapolo> as long as ISPs don't start pushing IPv6 that won't work ^^
25 2012-04-09 00:05:54 <BlueMatt> no, upnp is used for some media stuff
26 2012-04-09 00:05:59 <sipa> orly?
27 2012-04-09 00:06:03 <BlueMatt> yea
28 2012-04-09 00:06:12 <BlueMatt> eg streaming media from comp -> xbox
29 2012-04-09 00:06:15 <sipa> ic
30 2012-04-09 00:06:16 <BlueMatt> (m$ loves its upnp)
31 2012-04-09 00:07:23 <TuxBlackEdo> windows actually does upnp correctly
32 2012-04-09 00:08:14 <TuxBlackEdo> well.. at least according to that 2c83 guy
33 2012-04-09 00:11:37 <denisx> its 28c3
34 2012-04-09 00:12:09 Diapolo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
35 2012-04-09 00:14:02 <[Tycho]> ASICs, he he he
36 2012-04-09 00:15:06 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
37 2012-04-09 00:15:10 <forsetifox> Down with ASIC's. Up with mini skirts!
38 2012-04-09 00:17:47 <forsetifox> Love the video. This guy is pretty funny.
39 2012-04-09 00:19:50 RainbowDashh is now known as MJ94
40 2012-04-09 00:20:20 MJ94 is now known as Guest127
41 2012-04-09 00:21:53 Guest127 is now known as RainbowDashh
42 2012-04-09 00:34:08 <forsetifox> When it comes to hardware he doesn't know what he's talking about. "You'll need a 3TB hard drive every 21 days".
43 2012-04-09 00:40:16 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: Eloipool's code for MM gotwork should help
44 2012-04-09 00:42:23 <luke-jr> MasterChief: there is no reason to prefer p2pool over all other pools, either
45 2012-04-09 00:42:35 Joric has joined
46 2012-04-09 00:43:49 <MasterChief> according to a pool operator
47 2012-04-09 00:44:36 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: wat? yes there is
48 2012-04-09 00:44:44 <BlueMatt> there is huge reason to prefer p2pool over getwork pools
49 2012-04-09 00:45:00 <BlueMatt> properly done getmemorypool pools, less so, but...
50 2012-04-09 00:57:29 <luke-jr> MasterChief: according to a pool operator whose pool is just as good for Bitcoin as p2pool
51 2012-04-09 00:57:40 <luke-jr> as the result of many hours of hard work on my part
52 2012-04-09 00:58:04 <gmaxwell> Ignoring the whole no one actually using the getmemorypool interface. :(
53 2012-04-09 00:58:10 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: actually, someone is.
54 2012-04-09 00:58:18 <MasterChief> i dont dispute it
55 2012-04-09 00:58:27 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I found a major bug in Eloipool's GMP implementation, and had to implement a workaround for old gmp-proxy :<
56 2012-04-09 00:58:39 <luke-jr> (submitblock was returning bools instead of null/string)
57 2012-04-09 00:59:27 <luke-jr> been working on allowing Eloipool to work as a chained GMP client too ;)
58 2012-04-09 01:01:21 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: to be fair, nobody really makes use of the decentralized features on *any* pool, including p2pool
59 2012-04-09 01:01:37 <luke-jr> most p2pool miners just run stock bitcoind
60 2012-04-09 01:01:45 <BlueMatt> ...
61 2012-04-09 01:02:32 <sipa> well, at least an opensource gitian-compiled bitcoind should be more trustable than a closed pool who is feeding you blocks without even the ability to see the transactions in them
62 2012-04-09 01:03:27 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: A signficant fraction also compile their ownâ considering the big chunk that were on 0.6 before we had binaries for it.
63 2012-04-09 01:03:56 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: and there is still a nice sized fork of p2pool solving (invalid) blocks.
64 2012-04-09 01:03:56 <sipa> "decentralized" means "non-standard fee policy", it seems, according to luke
65 2012-04-09 01:04:31 <gmaxwell> my p2pool node has a non-standard fee policy.
66 2012-04-09 01:06:14 <Diablo-D3> yes, p2pool just takes it out of your mom.
67 2012-04-09 01:07:18 * sipa always appreciates Diablo-D3's wise contributions to the discussion
68 2012-04-09 01:07:32 <Diablo-D3> Im just angry theres no blocks
69 2012-04-09 01:07:34 * BlueMatt missed when Diablo-D3 actually did contribute...
70 2012-04-09 01:12:57 <luke-jr> sipa: the *advantage* to decentralized, is that individual miners should be able to customize their fee policy.
71 2012-04-09 01:13:39 <luke-jr> sipa: and while the carefully verified open source nature of bitcoind+p2pool is indeed beneficial to the miners, it does not help the network as a whole in itself
72 2012-04-09 01:14:42 Samuel has joined
73 2012-04-09 01:14:43 <Samuel> Hello!
74 2012-04-09 01:16:21 <luke-jr> Samuel: hey\
75 2012-04-09 01:17:40 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: heh
76 2012-04-09 01:18:19 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: what, you still dont have me on /ignore?
77 2012-04-09 01:18:30 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: ? you were never on /ignore
78 2012-04-09 01:19:06 * BlueMatt still wonders why...
79 2012-04-09 01:19:28 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: are you *trying* to get on his /ignore? :p
80 2012-04-09 01:19:35 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: is there an outstanding question?
81 2012-04-09 01:19:55 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: not afaik
82 2012-04-09 01:20:15 <BlueMatt> nvm
83 2012-04-09 01:22:14 JRWR has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
84 2012-04-09 01:26:28 <sipa> luke-jr: i disagree; the advantage to decentralized is that they can customize, not that they should :)
85 2012-04-09 01:28:23 JRWR has joined
86 2012-04-09 01:35:09 <gmaxwell> Most people left to customize will do the first thing that comes into their mind, which is often not a _good_ thing because they didn't have all the relevant information or hadn't thought it through.
87 2012-04-09 01:35:48 elkingrey has quit (Quit: Leaving)
88 2012-04-09 01:36:10 <gmaxwell> look at how many alt chains basically _broke_ bitcoin and got exploited or just fell apart because of it.
89 2012-04-09 01:36:55 <gmaxwell> I suspect it may have been that reorg bug that slayed "LQC" too bad we didn't figure that out before hitting it ourselves.
90 2012-04-09 01:39:04 <Joric> did anyone by chance see rfc1751 encoder in javascript? can't find one
91 2012-04-09 01:39:22 Samuel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
92 2012-04-09 01:39:56 <Joric> i need another google )
93 2012-04-09 01:40:11 <Joric> i remember yahoo was better at finding tech stuff
94 2012-04-09 01:41:24 <BlueMatt> bing?
95 2012-04-09 01:41:25 <gmaxwell> they all suck for tech stuff now. I want altavista back... at least it actually searched for what you asked for
96 2012-04-09 01:46:29 <luke-jr> XD
97 2012-04-09 01:47:01 <luke-jr> would be nice if someone had an index with symbols
98 2012-04-09 01:47:08 <luke-jr> so you could search by specific syntax etc
99 2012-04-09 01:48:08 <luke-jr> where is nanotube lately? :/
100 2012-04-09 01:49:16 <copumpkin> he's nanotubin'
101 2012-04-09 01:49:19 <copumpkin> you know how it is
102 2012-04-09 01:49:52 <sipa> wow: http://bitcoin.uni-rostock.de/
103 2012-04-09 01:50:03 <sipa> Clemens Cap was one of the speakers in Prague
104 2012-04-09 01:51:36 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
105 2012-04-09 01:52:36 <midnightmagic> early google was better at finding tech stuff than anything else once the search-engine spammers started gaming everything. that is what won over everyone I know..
106 2012-04-09 01:52:48 <midnightmagic> and then over time the results began turning more generic.
107 2012-04-09 01:53:19 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: Google lost their license for whatever algo they were using
108 2012-04-09 01:53:42 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: pheldens opened issue 1067 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1067>
109 2012-04-09 01:54:51 eps has quit (Disconnected by services)
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111 2012-04-09 01:58:02 <gmaxwell> I figured it was simply this: No one else was any good at the tech stuff. By optimizing more for a generic audience they lose _no one_ but they gain some of the generic customers they were losing to bing. ... but I'm just speculating.
112 2012-04-09 01:58:55 <midnightmagic> ..?! what? luke-jr what are you talking about?
113 2012-04-09 01:59:22 knotwork_ has joined
114 2012-04-09 01:59:38 <midnightmagic> or are you making one of the super-rare jokes you make occasionally?
115 2012-04-09 02:00:23 <luke-jr> â¦
116 2012-04-09 02:00:37 <midnightmagic> re: the algo google lost the rights to use
117 2012-04-09 02:02:11 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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122 2012-04-09 02:13:59 <MasterChief> https://duckduckgo.com/goodies.html
123 2012-04-09 02:14:11 <MasterChief> if you dont use this you dont know shit
124 2012-04-09 02:15:05 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: their results are basically bing, ... meh.
125 2012-04-09 02:16:06 <MasterChief> eat up your spoonful of gogle then
126 2012-04-09 02:16:09 JRWR- is now known as JRWR
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130 2012-04-09 02:18:09 <kingkatari> Sup all
131 2012-04-09 02:18:45 <sethman895> Does anyone know how to put an .img file's contents onto a flash drive and make it bootable? (in Windows)
132 2012-04-09 02:19:04 <MasterChief> .img?
133 2012-04-09 02:19:12 <sethman895> floppy image
134 2012-04-09 02:19:42 <MasterChief> ....burn it?
135 2012-04-09 02:20:22 <sethman895> Sort of.
136 2012-04-09 02:23:21 <BlueMatt> use grub2 loopback
137 2012-04-09 02:23:36 <BlueMatt> windows, nfc
138 2012-04-09 02:24:15 <BlueMatt> actually, dont think you even need loopback, but use grub2
139 2012-04-09 02:24:19 user__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
140 2012-04-09 02:24:38 <sethman895> I need the image on the flash drive.
141 2012-04-09 02:27:16 <SomeoneWeird> sethman895, use unetbootin
142 2012-04-09 02:27:36 <BlueMatt> does unetbooting do floppy images?
143 2012-04-09 02:28:38 <sethman895> It's not for Linux. It's an assembly langauge-based OS called MenuetOS.
144 2012-04-09 02:30:19 <BlueMatt> you probably wont get it to work, tbh, but you can try unetbootin, or grub
145 2012-04-09 02:36:00 <sethman895> I'm fed up with SourceForge.
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156 2012-04-09 03:14:25 <SomeoneWeird> yes it does BlueMatt
157 2012-04-09 03:15:01 <BlueMatt> SomeoneWeird: really? good to know
158 2012-04-09 03:15:12 <SomeoneWeird> yerp
159 2012-04-09 03:25:36 splatster has joined
160 2012-04-09 03:28:29 <ageis> unetbootin's great
161 2012-04-09 03:28:59 <ageis> i can even dd an image from unetbootin to a hard disk partition
162 2012-04-09 03:43:24 sytse has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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169 2012-04-09 04:09:51 <nanotube> luke-jr: hey sup. so... 0.5.4 rc3 eh?
170 2012-04-09 04:32:58 <MasterChief> 6 is out
171 2012-04-09 04:42:33 <nanotube> yes i know. 0.5.4 is a maintenance release of the 0.5 branch
172 2012-04-09 04:46:03 <MasterChief> why is everyone maintaining old builds
173 2012-04-09 04:46:15 <BlueMatt> luke is
174 2012-04-09 04:46:20 <BlueMatt> and 0.6 isnt /that/ stable
175 2012-04-09 04:46:48 <kingkatari> anyone very familer with poolserverj
176 2012-04-09 04:46:54 <kingkatari> i have a quick question
177 2012-04-09 04:48:13 <forsetifox> Used to be someone in the #btcguild channel that used/ made it.
178 2012-04-09 04:50:36 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
179 2012-04-09 04:50:44 <Graet> shadders was the author, used to hang in quite a few chans, including this one
180 2012-04-09 04:51:20 <forsetifox> I was thinking shudders. Heh.
181 2012-04-09 04:51:32 <Graet> lol close :)
182 2012-04-09 04:51:45 <Graet> ;;seen shadders
183 2012-04-09 04:51:45 <gribble> shadders was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 12 weeks, 6 days, 2 hours, 40 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <shadders> or that just java :p
184 2012-04-09 04:55:12 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: RainbowDashh)
185 2012-04-09 05:00:33 satoshi_ has joined
186 2012-04-09 05:00:41 <satoshi_> hello guys
187 2012-04-09 05:01:14 satoshi_ has quit (Client Quit)
188 2012-04-09 05:01:30 RainbowDashh has joined
189 2012-04-09 05:01:33 <freewil> omg, no one got an interview
190 2012-04-09 05:01:49 BlueMatt is now known as satoshi_
191 2012-04-09 05:01:53 <satoshi_> what do you want to know?
192 2012-04-09 05:01:59 <freewil> omgz!!!
193 2012-04-09 05:02:03 satoshi_ is now known as BlueMatt
194 2012-04-09 05:02:07 <freewil> lol
195 2012-04-09 05:02:11 <freewil> so bluematt is satosh!
196 2012-04-09 05:02:12 <BlueMatt> dick registered the nick...
197 2012-04-09 05:02:26 kingkatari has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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214 2012-04-09 05:38:50 <Keefe> is there an irc chan just for the bitocin armory client?
215 2012-04-09 05:38:56 <Keefe> bitcoin*
216 2012-04-09 06:05:30 theboos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
217 2012-04-09 06:06:36 devrandom has quit (Quit: leaving)
218 2012-04-09 06:22:49 <Joric> etotheipi_ is right here
219 2012-04-09 06:22:55 <Joric> theres none afaik
220 2012-04-09 06:33:51 JRWR has quit (Quit: "If the dinosaurs had a space program, they'd still be here." - Ron Garan)
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235 2012-04-09 07:31:32 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: laanwj reopened issue 1057 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1057>
236 2012-04-09 07:34:40 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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243 2012-04-09 08:02:09 Joric_ is now known as Joric
244 2012-04-09 08:06:05 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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246 2012-04-09 08:08:08 paulo_ has joined
247 2012-04-09 08:08:24 <paulo_> i can't seem to find the exact steps on mining
248 2012-04-09 08:08:37 <paulo_> it's SHA256(SHA256(nonce + something))
249 2012-04-09 08:09:51 <Joric> paulo_, it's sha256^2(block header)
250 2012-04-09 08:10:07 <Joric> block header includes nonce and block size and previous block hash
251 2012-04-09 08:10:11 <Joric> 80 bytes
252 2012-04-09 08:11:35 forsetifox has quit (Quit: Page closed)
253 2012-04-09 08:11:38 <Joric> sorry, no block size )
254 2012-04-09 08:11:59 <paulo_> found it: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
255 2012-04-09 08:12:03 <Joric> version, prev hash, merkle root, timestamp, difficulty, nonce
256 2012-04-09 08:12:27 <Joric> 4+32+32+4+4+4=80
257 2012-04-09 08:17:28 akarmn has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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259 2012-04-09 08:19:31 <blinkbat> whats a merkle root?
260 2012-04-09 08:20:55 copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
261 2012-04-09 08:21:06 pumpkin has joined
262 2012-04-09 08:21:14 <Joric> 256-bit hash based on all of the transactions
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273 2012-04-09 09:31:51 Diapolo has joined
274 2012-04-09 09:33:17 <Diapolo> Has anyone an idea, why my debug.log seems to often end with "select() for connection failed: 10038"?
275 2012-04-09 09:40:03 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, eloipool doesn't have the string 'getauxblock' in it anywhere :-O
276 2012-04-09 09:40:29 <UukGoblin> does it even call namecoind's getauxblock?
277 2012-04-09 10:02:37 <sipa> Diapolo: that's a very strange error
278 2012-04-09 10:02:53 <sipa> (google for winsock error 10038)
279 2012-04-09 10:08:15 pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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281 2012-04-09 10:11:59 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, where's the code that submits proof of aux work to namecoind?
282 2012-04-09 10:18:11 paulo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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284 2012-04-09 10:19:26 <paulo_> Hello
285 2012-04-09 10:19:37 <paulo_> is there a way to get mtgox quotes via JSON?
286 2012-04-09 10:23:28 <Graet> #mtgoc or ##mtgox-chat propably be more help paulo_
287 2012-04-09 10:23:33 <Graet> oops
288 2012-04-09 10:23:38 <Graet> #mtgox
289 2012-04-09 10:26:13 <Diapolo> sipa: Socket operation on nonsocket. That _IS_ strange ... where is there any use of select on non-sockets?
290 2012-04-09 10:27:04 <UukGoblin> Diapolo, it feels more likely that something bad happened to the existing socket, i.e. it got prematurely closed or sth
291 2012-04-09 10:27:11 <sipa> indeed
292 2012-04-09 10:27:19 <sipa> it just seems a weird error to get
293 2012-04-09 10:27:36 <sipa> but i'm sure no socket operations are being performed on non-socket descriptors
294 2012-04-09 10:28:21 <Diapolo> Seems to happen if I close the client, while a blockchain dl is running, does this make more sense? I have to say I'm not sure if this happens with 0.6 final or only with my local modified version ...
295 2012-04-09 10:28:31 mmoya has joined
296 2012-04-09 10:28:40 <sipa> please try it with 0.6.0, if you can
297 2012-04-09 10:28:52 <sipa> also, i don't think it's a problem
298 2012-04-09 10:28:58 <sipa> it's not like it's crashing or anything
299 2012-04-09 10:30:06 <Diapolo> will try, just a sec
300 2012-04-09 10:32:36 <sipa> can you shown me the commands you are using with bitcoin-qt and bitcoind to test the RPC service? (possibly with passwords blanked out)
301 2012-04-09 10:34:14 <Diapolo> sipa: Was that a question for me? I've never used bitcoind or issued any RPC commands ^^
302 2012-04-09 10:35:21 <sipa> oh
303 2012-04-09 10:35:24 <sipa> wrong channel
304 2012-04-09 10:35:31 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
305 2012-04-09 10:37:34 <Diapolo> sipa: that winsock error is not present in the 0.6 final ... perhaps it has to do with Gavins remove of USE_SSL, so that this defaults to on ... I had to include ws2_32 as lib to get it compile again.
306 2012-04-09 10:41:48 mmoya has joined
307 2012-04-09 10:42:04 <sipa> ssl is only used for rpc connections, optionally
308 2012-04-09 10:43:27 <Diapolo> sipa: But support for it is compiled in even if it's not used ... right?
309 2012-04-09 10:43:40 Joric has joined
310 2012-04-09 10:44:00 <Diapolo> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/895c12943b1845411fb0282c17683c7b29a61459
311 2012-04-09 10:44:54 <sipa> yes
312 2012-04-09 10:45:03 <sipa> but that should not influence winsock connections
313 2012-04-09 10:46:36 <Joric> oh god so many edits... it was a massacre!
314 2012-04-09 10:46:39 <Diapolo> That's nothing I said, but I said I had to include ws2_32 as lib in order to get Bitcoin-Qt compile again ... perhaps the error is related to tha lib somehow.
315 2012-04-09 10:47:35 <Joric> sipa, http://brainwallet.org :] lacks customizable hash chain, offline transactions, and, probably rfc1751 for ppl with special needs
316 2012-04-09 10:47:55 <Diapolo> Seems with Gitian you don't need that lib ... but on Windows I do.
317 2012-04-09 10:50:23 <Joric> and maybe *.js scripts should be loaded straight from repos rather than forked
318 2012-04-09 10:50:36 toffoo has quit ()
319 2012-04-09 10:50:41 dapp has joined
320 2012-04-09 10:50:43 <dapp> silkroad is still not working
321 2012-04-09 10:53:32 <dapp> not just silroad but black market reloaded too
322 2012-04-09 10:53:48 <sipa> Joric: who made that?
323 2012-04-09 10:54:12 <Joric> sipa, one jerk you don't know him
324 2012-04-09 10:54:20 <sipa> you?
325 2012-04-09 10:54:30 <Joric> hell no
326 2012-04-09 10:54:34 <sipa> it looks nice
327 2012-04-09 10:54:48 <sipa> but i don't like just using a password to derive the actual key
328 2012-04-09 10:55:10 <sipa> that's the concept of a brainwallet of course
329 2012-04-09 10:55:20 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
330 2012-04-09 10:55:24 <sipa> but something randomly generated + rfc1751 is probably a lot safer
331 2012-04-09 11:00:28 <ThomasV> gmaxwell will love it..
332 2012-04-09 11:02:03 <sipa> Diapolo: oh that may influence things yes
333 2012-04-09 11:13:58 <Diapolo> sipa: I've got an idea for the db code, we can't do full recovery with the log files, right? That's why autoremove got activated. Why not write logs ONLY to memory?
334 2012-04-09 11:19:18 <sipa> because that would prevent any recovery
335 2012-04-09 11:19:31 <sipa> read: bitcoin crashes -> db corrupt
336 2012-04-09 11:20:45 <Diapolo> But we have only 1 log file, that is max 10mb ... are you sure this helps recovering?
337 2012-04-09 11:21:10 <sipa> yes
338 2012-04-09 11:21:21 <sipa> it's essential
339 2012-04-09 11:21:41 <Diapolo> But it would be not a full recovery as we only have a limited log, right?
340 2012-04-09 11:21:55 <sipa> full recovery == lose the .dat file
341 2012-04-09 11:22:00 <sipa> no, we can't do that anymore
342 2012-04-09 11:22:26 <sipa> but we can recovery from the point where a partial write was done, if the program or your system crashes
343 2012-04-09 11:22:31 <Diapolo> I was only thinking of a way to speedup the db code + remove massive writes, which is bad for i.e. SSDs.
344 2012-04-09 11:23:08 <sipa> i'm not sure whether that's possible with bdb
345 2012-04-09 11:23:37 <sipa> clearly more caching in ram could help, but that doesn't prevent bdb from writing, it seems
346 2012-04-09 11:24:02 <Diapolo> I'll talk to you again later, have to take a short break ... RL ;). sorry
347 2012-04-09 11:24:31 TD has joined
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365 2012-04-09 11:55:52 <paulo_> how many bits are ECDSA private keys used in bitcoin?
366 2012-04-09 11:56:29 <sipa> 256
367 2012-04-09 11:56:43 <t7> ecliptic curve?
368 2012-04-09 11:56:48 <sipa> yes
369 2012-04-09 11:56:53 <sipa> secp256k1 is the name of the curve
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378 2012-04-09 12:20:09 <luke-jr> nanotube: yeah, http://luke.dashjr.org/~luke-jr/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoind/0.5.4/test/rc3/
379 2012-04-09 12:20:43 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: it doesn't
380 2012-04-09 12:20:56 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: Eloipool uses the gotwork MM implementation
381 2012-04-09 12:31:43 <t7> 256b EC key provides the same security as > 3kb RSA key
382 2012-04-09 12:31:51 <t7> why we still using RSA?
383 2012-04-09 12:31:59 <t7> is it alot faster
384 2012-04-09 12:32:15 <luke-jr> who is using RSA?
385 2012-04-09 12:32:43 <luke-jr> (as for non-Bitcoin like PGP, the reason is likely because nothing supports EC yet)
386 2012-04-09 12:35:22 SphericalCow has quit (Disconnected by services)
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390 2012-04-09 12:39:14 agricocb has joined
391 2012-04-09 12:40:55 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, so how does it talk to namecoin?
392 2012-04-09 12:40:58 phma has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
393 2012-04-09 12:41:56 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: merged-mining-proxymanager
394 2012-04-09 12:44:10 <Tykling> any freebsd users inhere ? anyone here feel like helping me with getting the lastest version of bitcoin to compile on freebsd ? the current bitcoin version in freebsd ports is 0.40 and I want to get the port updated, but I know next to nothing about compilers etc :/
395 2012-04-09 12:44:41 <Tykling> I have testing machines and am willing to do whatever I can, but I don't know enough to do it myself :)
396 2012-04-09 12:44:59 <luke-jr> Tykling: if you know nothing about compilers etc, you probably shouldn't be using an obscure OS like BSD
397 2012-04-09 12:45:07 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: http://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin/blobs/namecoin_mmm/contrib/merged-mine-proxy
398 2012-04-09 12:46:48 <Tykling> luke-jr: I've been using freebsd for more than 10 years, I am just not a developer :)
399 2012-04-09 12:47:08 <luke-jr> Tykling: well, developer is what you usually have to be to port software to obscure platforms :P
400 2012-04-09 12:47:56 <sipa> Tykling: try compiling it using whatever configuration is used in the current ports script
401 2012-04-09 12:48:04 <sipa> and report what errors you get
402 2012-04-09 12:48:09 <Tykling> thats why I am asking for help :) bitcoin is already ported, just outdated
403 2012-04-09 12:48:21 <Tykling> sipa: ok thanks hold on
404 2012-04-09 12:48:33 <sipa> the most intrusive change will be qt instead of.wx
405 2012-04-09 12:49:10 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
406 2012-04-09 12:52:21 Diapolo has joined
407 2012-04-09 12:52:47 <Diapolo> re
408 2012-04-09 12:59:40 <Tykling> sipa: this is the current diff I have against the 0.4.0 port: http://pastebin.com/cvBz1w9f
409 2012-04-09 13:00:27 <Tykling> sipa: this is the build failure: http://pastebin.com/GAvhcAPY
410 2012-04-09 13:06:34 Joric_ is now known as Joric
411 2012-04-09 13:09:43 <luke-jr> Tykling: do you know how to use git and compile, then?
412 2012-04-09 13:11:27 <Tykling> sure, but I'd like the released version for the port and not the git version
413 2012-04-09 13:11:30 ThomasV has joined
414 2012-04-09 13:11:41 <luke-jr> Tykling: I'll make a branch based on v0.6.0 tag
415 2012-04-09 13:12:21 <sipa> Tykling: some googling learns you need #include <in.h> in netbase.h
416 2012-04-09 13:12:30 <sipa> on FreeBSD
417 2012-04-09 13:12:40 <sipa> i'm not sure whether that's true in all BSDs
418 2012-04-09 13:12:50 <Tykling> sipa: yeah, the 0.4 port did this in protocol.h, I'll try it in netbase.h instead
419 2012-04-09 13:12:54 <Tykling> hold on 2 secs
420 2012-04-09 13:15:45 <Tykling> sipa: actually the 0.6 version of netbase.h already has an #IFDEF BSD: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/138d08c5315c45b3dd08184c4eeb77ee3e47ef0a/src/netbase.h#L27
421 2012-04-09 13:15:58 <Tykling> but it doesn't seem to be evaluated true on freebsd
422 2012-04-09 13:17:02 denisx has joined
423 2012-04-09 13:17:22 * luke-jr sadfaces at netbase.h not having the proper includes :P
424 2012-04-09 13:17:57 <denisx> yes, please change the BSD to __FreeBSD__
425 2012-04-09 13:18:04 <sipa> i don't mind fixing netbase.h to make it compile on BSDs
426 2012-04-09 13:18:23 <sipa> but preferably not just FreeBSD then
427 2012-04-09 13:18:43 <Diapolo> sipa: Have you played around with "pdb->set_pagesize(4096);"?
428 2012-04-09 13:18:46 <paulo_> why do confirmations take too long?
429 2012-04-09 13:18:54 <Diapolo> value is just an example
430 2012-04-09 13:19:44 <Tykling> I honestly don't know about net- and openbsd, but changing that IFDEF to __FreeBSD__ fixes it for me
431 2012-04-09 13:20:09 <denisx> same here
432 2012-04-09 13:22:21 <Tykling> sipa: thank you for the help - I will submit a PR to freebsd to get the port updated to 0.6 - will you change netbase.h upstream so when I port 0.7 sometime in the future, that patch wont be needed ?
433 2012-04-09 13:22:52 enquirer has quit (Quit: back soon)
434 2012-04-09 13:22:55 <sipa> Diapolo: not really, no
435 2012-04-09 13:23:05 enquirer has joined
436 2012-04-09 13:23:11 <sipa> paulo_: confirmations == blocks built upon the one that contains your transaction
437 2012-04-09 13:23:34 <sipa> Tykling: and do you need <in.h> as well?
438 2012-04-09 13:25:18 <Tykling> sipa: the only thing I changed is BSD -> __FreeBSD__ so it includes <netinet/in.h>
439 2012-04-09 13:25:42 * luke-jr has a netbase.cpp/h fixed
440 2012-04-09 13:25:48 <Tykling> it still doesn't install correctly because of some plist issues, but it compiles correctly, which was my problem
441 2012-04-09 13:25:50 <luke-jr> Tykling: that's not a BSD thing
442 2012-04-09 13:25:59 <Diapolo> sipa: there must be a bdb stat util which can be used to tweak the pagesize ... on Windows i.e. it is 4096 on most NTFS volumes.
443 2012-04-09 13:26:47 <Tykling> luke-jr: what is not a BSD thing ?
444 2012-04-09 13:27:00 <luke-jr> Tykling: netinet/in.h
445 2012-04-09 13:27:26 <luke-jr> git clone git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin.git -b headers
446 2012-04-09 13:27:35 <Tykling> luke-jr: it is wrapped in an #ifdef BSD / #endif in the code, I just changed BSD to __FreeBSD__
447 2012-04-09 13:27:40 <sipa> Diapolo: the default is the size of the filesystem block, which sounds reasonable
448 2012-04-09 13:27:48 <luke-jr> Tykling: it's required for any platform.
449 2012-04-09 13:28:06 <sipa> Diapolo: i'll do a benchmark with 64k as blocksize, but the documentation says there are corruption risks when set higher than the blocksize
450 2012-04-09 13:28:22 <Tykling> luke-jr: weird how it has worked all these years with it wrapped in #ifdef BSD then
451 2012-04-09 13:28:34 <luke-jr> Tykling: works != correct
452 2012-04-09 13:28:39 <sipa> netbase.h was only added in 0.6
453 2012-04-09 13:28:42 <luke-jr> Tykling: also, netbase.h didn't exist before
454 2012-04-09 13:29:15 <Tykling> so remove the #ifdef rather than change to __FreeBSD__ ?
455 2012-04-09 13:29:19 <luke-jr> anyhow, try my branch
456 2012-04-09 13:29:20 <Tykling> in my local patch
457 2012-04-09 13:29:27 <luke-jr> I went through the code and added the headers it requires
458 2012-04-09 13:29:47 <Diapolo> sipa: okay 2 more thoughts ... what about dbenv.set_flags(DB_REGION_INIT, 1); is it of any use?
459 2012-04-09 13:30:12 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
460 2012-04-09 13:30:40 Joric has quit ()
461 2012-04-09 13:31:33 <sipa> Diapolo: sounds like that may cause the increased startup time when using a large dbcache
462 2012-04-09 13:33:21 <Diapolo> sipa: well it IS currently not active, I only played around with it ... perhaps you could do some benches with it, too?
463 2012-04-09 13:34:21 gavinandresen has joined
464 2012-04-09 13:35:07 <Tykling> luke-jr: I think I have what I need to make a working port of 0.6 for freebsd, but thanks anyway - if your new code includes <netinet/in.h> on freebsd I'm sure it's fine
465 2012-04-09 13:35:25 <jgarzik> Tykling: what does -tip lack, to run on fBSD?
466 2012-04-09 13:35:30 <luke-jr> Tykling: is that the only problem, then? would be nice to have it tested so it can be merged in for 0.6.1
467 2012-04-09 13:36:25 <Tykling> luke-jr: I am working on some plist issues, looks like some gettext file changed or something, will write here when I get it working with the patch
468 2012-04-09 13:36:35 <denisx> I'm building for FreeBSD since last summer
469 2012-04-09 13:36:36 <luke-jr> I don't think we use gettext anymore.
470 2012-04-09 13:36:37 <sipa> jgarzik: #include <netinet/in.h> in netbase.h
471 2012-04-09 13:36:39 <luke-jr> if we ever did.
472 2012-04-09 13:37:04 <sipa> jgarzik: it's in an #ifdef BSD, which doesn't seem defined on FreeBSD
473 2012-04-09 13:37:56 <luke-jr> someone should probably go over all the code with a fine-toothed comb, get rid of 'using namespace' and headers.h, and add the proper includes
474 2012-04-09 13:38:12 <sipa> ack
475 2012-04-09 13:39:34 <sipa> (i don't mind using namespace is .cpp files, but it shouldn't be used in headers)
476 2012-04-09 13:40:56 <Tykling> http://pastebin.com/Vsjk3dzd this bit from the 0.4 makefile is causing errors, there used to be a locale/ folder under src/ with some .mo files for localization, which doesn't seem to be in 0.6 ?
477 2012-04-09 13:41:11 <Diapolo> I vote for defaul usage standards for namespaces ^^.
478 2012-04-09 13:42:04 <sipa> Tykling: no, a different translation system is used now
479 2012-04-09 13:42:21 <Tykling> sipa: right, I'll just remove that part then
480 2012-04-09 13:42:37 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: No route to host)
481 2012-04-09 13:43:36 <denisx> Tycale: http://pastebin.com/Bu4DWAxr
482 2012-04-09 13:43:39 <denisx> this works for me
483 2012-04-09 13:44:37 <Tykling> \o/ $ pkg_info | grep bitcoin
484 2012-04-09 13:44:37 <Tykling> bitcoin-0.6.0 Virtual Peer-to-Peer Currency Client
485 2012-04-09 13:44:53 <Tykling> awesome, it works now, I'll prepare a proper patch
486 2012-04-09 13:46:22 occulta has joined
487 2012-04-09 13:50:03 <Tykling> I get these warnings with each .cpp file it builds: http://pastebin.com/2PzymNEL (it still works though)
488 2012-04-09 13:51:40 <denisx> this is from the gcc hardening stuff
489 2012-04-09 13:52:27 <Tykling> should I change anything in the makefile to make them go away, or perhaps it doesn't matter ?
490 2012-04-09 13:53:12 <denisx> I just removed it
491 2012-04-09 13:53:46 <Tykling> denisx: where/how ?
492 2012-04-09 13:54:12 <Diapolo> Did anyone try -fstack-protector-all for the Win builds? Executable is not messed up and works here (I even added -all).
493 2012-04-09 13:54:24 <denisx> Tykling: this is my freebsd makefile http://pastebin.com/Bu4DWAxr
494 2012-04-09 13:54:56 <gavinandresen> denisx: -DUSE_SSL is obsolete as of 0.6.1
495 2012-04-09 13:55:16 <denisx> yeah, the makefile is for 0.6.0
496 2012-04-09 13:55:32 <Tykling> denisx: oh, that is a lot different from the port Makefile :)
497 2012-04-09 13:55:33 user__ has joined
498 2012-04-09 13:55:48 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
499 2012-04-09 13:55:57 <gavinandresen> ... looks like HARDENING should be split into HARDENDING_COMPILE and HARDENING_LINK ....
500 2012-04-09 13:55:58 <denisx> Tykling: its a copy from makefile.unix with some changes
501 2012-04-09 13:56:16 <gavinandresen> And does -DNOPCH actually do anything ?
502 2012-04-09 14:00:51 <Tykling> denisx: this is the patch I am going to submit for the updated port: http://pastebin.com/GKdPkLq8
503 2012-04-09 14:01:49 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: NOPCH is a relic of wx
504 2012-04-09 14:01:50 <denisx> looks good to me
505 2012-04-09 14:02:06 <sipa> REINPLACE_CMD, not REPLACE ?
506 2012-04-09 14:02:17 <Tykling> luke-jr: the include was the only problem, it compiles and works fine
507 2012-04-09 14:02:26 occulta has joined
508 2012-04-09 14:02:47 <Tykling> sipa: that was what was used in the 0.4 makefile to patch protocol.h to include in.h
509 2012-04-09 14:02:55 <Tykling> so I just adapted it to patch netbase.h instead
510 2012-04-09 14:03:00 <sipa> ok
511 2012-04-09 14:03:13 <Tykling> sorry I meant to patch the Makefile
512 2012-04-09 14:03:14 <sipa> it just looked strange, i don't know anything about BSD
513 2012-04-09 14:04:08 <Tykling> thanks everyone for your help, you've been great :)
514 2012-04-09 14:04:16 OneMiner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
515 2012-04-09 14:04:26 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: cool, more code we can remove
516 2012-04-09 14:04:33 <jgarzik> yep
517 2012-04-09 14:07:16 <sipa> jgarzik: you like #1054 now?
518 2012-04-09 14:10:21 <gavinandresen> sipa: I just commented
519 2012-04-09 14:10:55 <Tykling> denisx: wait, if wx isn't used anymore, it seems I have a lot of stuff still in this makefile that is not relevant anymore
520 2012-04-09 14:11:09 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 1068 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1068>
521 2012-04-09 14:11:26 <Tykling> I haven't built the gui I've only built the command line client
522 2012-04-09 14:11:36 <sipa> luke-jr: why does netbase need to depend on util?
523 2012-04-09 14:11:41 <luke-jr> sipa: int64 ?
524 2012-04-09 14:11:44 <luke-jr> printf, at least
525 2012-04-09 14:12:10 <sipa> luke-jr: the header file
526 2012-04-09 14:12:30 <luke-jr> the header uses int64
527 2012-04-09 14:12:36 <sipa> hmm
528 2012-04-09 14:12:39 <sipa> how did it get it?
529 2012-04-09 14:13:29 <luke-jr> serialize.h also defines int64
530 2012-04-09 14:13:44 <luke-jr> for now
531 2012-04-09 14:13:59 <luke-jr> IMO, it doesn't belong there
532 2012-04-09 14:14:05 <sipa> it doesn't
533 2012-04-09 14:14:14 <sipa> but it certainly doesn't belong in util.h either
534 2012-04-09 14:14:16 <jgarzik> sipa: you missed makefile.mingw
535 2012-04-09 14:14:20 <jgarzik> sipa: otherwise ACK
536 2012-04-09 14:14:27 <sipa> jgarzik: what did i miss there?
537 2012-04-09 14:14:33 <jgarzik> sipa: 'clean' target
538 2012-04-09 14:14:34 <Tykling> denisx: are you building with a GUI or not ?
539 2012-04-09 14:14:43 <jgarzik> sipa: you updated 3 of 4 makefiles (or 4 of 5?)
540 2012-04-09 14:14:46 <sipa> jgarzik: makefile.mings doesn't create build.h either
541 2012-04-09 14:14:53 <luke-jr> sipa: so long as we're using a non-standard int64 type, util.h is the only place i can imagine it
542 2012-04-09 14:14:57 <jgarzik> sipa: ok
543 2012-04-09 14:15:01 <jgarzik> sipa: ACK then
544 2012-04-09 14:15:02 <luke-jr> unless we make a myinttypes.h :p
545 2012-04-09 14:15:12 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
546 2012-04-09 14:15:31 * jgarzik would prefer a consistent clean across builds, as much as possible/feasible
547 2012-04-09 14:15:59 <sipa> luke-jr: reason is that util.h depends on a lot, and i prefer to have netbase as independent as possible (i'm using it in dnsseed as well, for example, without an util)
548 2012-04-09 14:16:16 <luke-jr> it'd be nice if we could replace all the makefile.* with a single one that uses ifdefs to control the platform differences :P
549 2012-04-09 14:16:17 Turingi has joined
550 2012-04-09 14:16:28 <luke-jr> sipa: ah
551 2012-04-09 14:17:12 <sipa> luke-jr: a slightly modified version, of course, but the general point is: it's good design to keep things that do need require eachother independent
552 2012-04-09 14:17:47 <sipa> and i hate util because of that
553 2012-04-09 14:17:56 <luke-jr> sipa: well, I guess I can take util.h out of there so long as serialize.h has int64
554 2012-04-09 14:18:01 <luke-jr> *done*
555 2012-04-09 14:18:02 <Tykling> sorry if this is a stupid question, but how do I make it build the gui in the non-wx world ?
556 2012-04-09 14:18:10 <sipa> Tykling: qmake
557 2012-04-09 14:18:50 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
558 2012-04-09 14:19:20 <sipa> Tykling: not in the src/ directory
559 2012-04-09 14:20:00 <sipa> Diapolo: set_pagesize(65536) is significantly slower than the default here
560 2012-04-09 14:20:14 <sipa> haven't tried other numbers
561 2012-04-09 14:24:58 bitvampire has joined
562 2012-04-09 14:30:25 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
563 2012-04-09 14:30:31 sytse has joined
564 2012-04-09 14:31:28 <Tykling> sipa: there is nothing called qmake on freebsd
565 2012-04-09 14:31:41 <Tykling> sipa: maybe I need to include it as a dependency
566 2012-04-09 14:33:43 <sipa> Tykling: you'll need the whole qt dev system
567 2012-04-09 14:33:52 <Tykling> sipa: of course
568 2012-04-09 14:33:57 <sipa> that includes qmake
569 2012-04-09 14:34:17 <sipa> gavinandresen: ok, updated with some simplifications and comments
570 2012-04-09 14:34:18 <Tykling> I'm on it
571 2012-04-09 14:34:27 copumpkin has joined
572 2012-04-09 14:34:38 <sipa> i'll try doing a gitian build again of buildinfo
573 2012-04-09 14:37:01 bitvampire has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
574 2012-04-09 14:37:58 <Diapolo> sipa: thanks for your test, what about dbenv.set_flags(DB_REGION_INIT, 1);?
575 2012-04-09 14:40:47 Joric has joined
576 2012-04-09 14:43:43 OneMiner has joined
577 2012-04-09 14:46:11 <Diapolo> I feel rather alone with https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/coding.txt, is it that bad to use that as a base while coding, even for existing code, if it gets changed :D?
578 2012-04-09 14:47:48 <gavinandresen> Satoshi was a stickler for hungarian variable names, I personally don't care as long as the code is readable.
579 2012-04-09 14:48:30 <gavinandresen> Ok, I take it back, I actually think pszFoo looks icky....
580 2012-04-09 14:49:07 <gavinandresen> (so I guess I do care a little. But not enough to change coding.txt or all the code that already uses the pszFoo convention)
581 2012-04-09 14:49:57 <sipa> luke-jr: netbase.h uses struct in_addr, and struct sockaddr_in
582 2012-04-09 14:50:12 <luke-jr> sipa: I was only looking at functions, not structs.
583 2012-04-09 14:50:21 <luke-jr> plus man tcp I guess
584 2012-04-09 14:50:42 <sipa> i really would have liked to move all those platform-dependent include cruft to netbase.cpp, but i doubt it's possible
585 2012-04-09 14:50:56 <luke-jr> sipa: I don't see any problems with it.
586 2012-04-09 14:51:10 <luke-jr> it builds under mingw at least
587 2012-04-09 14:51:47 <sipa> not sure how just including serialize.h already defines sockaddr_in
588 2012-04-09 14:52:54 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: hungarian notation considered harmful
589 2012-04-09 14:52:55 <jgarzik> :)
590 2012-04-09 14:53:27 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it's a lame way to remind senile programmers of a variable's type
591 2012-04-09 14:53:34 <luke-jr> XD
592 2012-04-09 14:53:56 <Diapolo> gavinandresen: I like standards, that everyone should use ^^. Problem is if you say I don't care will be: I use names as per coding.txt and others say why do you rename a variable? This can be shortened if there is a defined way :).
593 2012-04-09 14:53:56 * luke-jr hates the space-indenting more than the var names tbh
594 2012-04-09 14:54:05 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yup, and really shouldn't be necessary in a language like c++ with an almost decent type sytem
595 2012-04-09 14:54:44 <sipa> i hate the opening braces on a separate line, such a waste of space
596 2012-04-09 14:54:58 <jgarzik> sipa: +1 :)
597 2012-04-09 14:55:03 <gavinandresen> yeah +1
598 2012-04-09 14:55:03 <luke-jr> sipa: I hate them on the same line, makes diff think the condition changed ;)
599 2012-04-09 14:55:18 Joric_ has joined
600 2012-04-09 14:55:18 Joric_ has quit (Changing host)
601 2012-04-09 14:55:18 Joric_ has joined
602 2012-04-09 14:55:22 <jgarzik> sipa: opening-brace-on-separate-line is not only a waste of space
603 2012-04-09 14:55:27 <Diapolo> standards are rock :D
604 2012-04-09 14:55:30 <jgarzik> it also reduces the info you may put on one screen
605 2012-04-09 14:55:34 <jgarzik> thus reducing review-ability
606 2012-04-09 14:55:40 <gavinandresen> APL for the win!
607 2012-04-09 14:55:56 <Joric_> gavinandresen, js only and hosted on github - http://brainwallet.org
608 2012-04-09 14:56:00 <gavinandresen> ( I actually did do some significant APL programming long long ago....)
609 2012-04-09 14:56:02 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
610 2012-04-09 14:56:21 <sipa> Joric_: is it yours or not?
611 2012-04-09 14:57:01 <Joric_> sipa, just a few lines )
612 2012-04-09 14:57:10 <luke-jr> let's pile a bunch of statements on one line then :p
613 2012-04-09 14:57:51 <Diapolo> laanwj doesn't like variable renaming ^^
614 2012-04-09 14:58:29 <sipa> well, there are several options
615 2012-04-09 14:58:44 Joric_ is now known as Joric
616 2012-04-09 14:59:01 <sipa> either abolish that coding standard, have some discussions about a new one, and change it everywhere, and break every existing patchset out there
617 2012-04-09 14:59:07 <sipa> or just be less strict about them
618 2012-04-09 14:59:19 <luke-jr> or paint the bike shed green./
619 2012-04-09 14:59:29 <gavinandresen> ewww, not green....
620 2012-04-09 14:59:35 <luke-jr> :p
621 2012-04-09 14:59:46 <Diapolo> even if we have no real standard, at least consistency should be taken into account when using var-names
622 2012-04-09 15:00:06 * luke-jr thinks it's sane to use new coding standard in new code, and let legacy code be replaced over time.
623 2012-04-09 15:00:07 <sipa> Diapolo: yes, that's the one (and only) thing i like about that coding standard
624 2012-04-09 15:00:44 <sipa> luke-jr: that's another option, but it does mean we need a new coding style as well, if you don't want chaos in new code
625 2012-04-09 15:01:05 <Diapolo> Luke that idea is great, update style, when working on old code, keep untouched code and use consistency naming in new code.
626 2012-04-09 15:01:30 <Diapolo> sipa: to a certain amount yes
627 2012-04-09 15:01:39 <gavinandresen> if we want to change the coding standard, we should adopt somebody else's. Linux or Qt or some other big, popular c++ open source codebase
628 2012-04-09 15:02:06 <jgarzik> I dunno if I would be proud of consistency, when it amounts to being consistently silly :)
629 2012-04-09 15:02:22 <sipa> gavinandresen: ack
630 2012-04-09 15:02:36 <gavinandresen> "All variable names shall start with the string "bruce". All #defines shall start with BRUCE. All...."
631 2012-04-09 15:02:40 <jgarzik> Linux isn't a C++ codebase </grin>
632 2012-04-09 15:02:57 <sipa> jgarzik: if we want to change the coding standard, we should adopt somebody else's. Linux or Qt or some other big, popular c++ open source codebase
633 2012-04-09 15:03:00 <sipa> eh
634 2012-04-09 15:03:09 <Diapolo> right, there are standards our there we should use one ^^
635 2012-04-09 15:03:13 <sipa> jgarzik: if we want to change the coding standard, we should adopt somebody else's. Linux or (Qt or some other big, popular c++ open source codebase) [parenthesis mine]
636 2012-04-09 15:03:32 <gavinandresen> First, we should rewrite linux in C++.
637 2012-04-09 15:03:39 <gmaxwell> 0_o
638 2012-04-09 15:03:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: i think you may not want to do that
639 2012-04-09 15:03:46 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: Linus would kill you.
640 2012-04-09 15:03:48 <Diapolo> I don't care about Linux ^^ sorry.
641 2012-04-09 15:04:06 <sipa> but the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!
642 2012-04-09 15:04:10 <jgarzik> Linux is simple: (1) avoid StudlyCaps, (2) don't put type abbreviations in names, (3) words are usually, but not always, separated by _
643 2012-04-09 15:04:15 <Diapolo> At least one has to be the Windows sucker in here ^^!
644 2012-04-09 15:04:24 <Joric> It's simple, we kill Linus
645 2012-04-09 15:04:58 <sipa> Joric: i think seeing the Linux sourcecode being converted to C++ in a CVS repository would suffice to give him a heart attack
646 2012-04-09 15:05:03 <jgarzik> so, Linux is pretty antithetical to all other C++ standards out there
647 2012-04-09 15:05:45 <jgarzik> Linux is also incremental -- we know that big sweeping coding style changes across the entire codebase create nothing but churn that breaks other, more useful patches
648 2012-04-09 15:05:47 <gavinandresen> pull request for the Linux kernel next April 1: port to C++ ....
649 2012-04-09 15:06:01 <jgarzik> so just delete Hungarian shite from doc/coding.txt, and go from there
650 2012-04-09 15:06:09 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ACK
651 2012-04-09 15:06:14 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #273: FAILURE in 1 min 22 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/273/
652 2012-04-09 15:06:15 <BlueMattBot> * phil.kaufmann: updated db.cpp to use make_preferred()
653 2012-04-09 15:06:15 <BlueMattBot> * phil.kaufmann: updated bitcoinrpc.cpp to use make_preferred() and removed double inclusion of boost/filesystem.hpp
654 2012-04-09 15:06:16 <BlueMattBot> * phil.kaufmann: updated util.cpp to use make_preferred()
655 2012-04-09 15:06:16 <BlueMattBot> * phil.kaufmann: fixed small error in bitcoinrpc.cpp
656 2012-04-09 15:06:51 <sipa> db.cpp: In constructor âCDB::CDB(const char*, const char*)â:
657 2012-04-09 15:06:52 <sipa> db.cpp:83:24: error: âstruct boost::filesystem::pathâ has no member named âmake_preferredâ
658 2012-04-09 15:07:14 <gavinandresen> I vote for http://wiki.qt-project.org/Coding_Style
659 2012-04-09 15:07:45 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: but that doesn't solve the main problem with the current style :<
660 2012-04-09 15:07:48 <gavinandresen> let me guess: make_preferred is a boost 1.48 thing or something
661 2012-04-09 15:07:58 <sipa> why do we use make_preferred() instead of just building it using its operator/ ?
662 2012-04-09 15:08:17 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: certainly matches current bitcoin spacing, at least
663 2012-04-09 15:08:18 <sipa> that avoids using any platform-specific name
664 2012-04-09 15:08:40 <Diapolo> We don't use it it's only a pull request ^^ .... if you have a better way that is fine :).
665 2012-04-09 15:08:58 <gavinandresen> Diapolo: I pulled that pull request just now
666 2012-04-09 15:09:02 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Qt style (your link) looks ACK-worthy to me
667 2012-04-09 15:09:08 <nanotube> i'm not so sure about all public classes starting with Q though. :)
668 2012-04-09 15:09:25 <jgarzik> heh
669 2012-04-09 15:09:26 <nanotube> and public functions with q.
670 2012-04-09 15:09:30 <sipa> Variables and functions start with a lower-case letter. Each consecutive word in a variableâs name starts with an upper-case letter
671 2012-04-09 15:09:32 <Diapolo> I'm sure it compiled with 1.47 ... yes: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_47_0/libs/filesystem/v3/doc/reference.html#path-make_preferred
672 2012-04-09 15:09:33 <nanotube> maybe B and b? :)
673 2012-04-09 15:09:39 <jgarzik> just ignore
674 2012-04-09 15:09:43 <nanotube> heh
675 2012-04-09 15:09:43 <sipa> Variable names begin with the type in lowercase, like nSomeVariable.
676 2012-04-09 15:09:43 <sipa> Please don't put the first word of the variable name in lowercase like
677 2012-04-09 15:09:43 <sipa> someVariable.
678 2012-04-09 15:09:45 <jgarzik> name prefixes should be avoided
679 2012-04-09 15:09:57 <jgarzik> a name is a name. not a compressed string including type and usage info.
680 2012-04-09 15:09:57 <sipa> Qt style and current style are diametrically opposed about this
681 2012-04-09 15:10:38 <sipa> anyway, i vote for the Qt style, with some modifications
682 2012-04-09 15:10:57 <luke-jr> what does the Qt style change for the better, exactly? :/
683 2012-04-09 15:11:02 <gavinandresen> I vote for sipa to be both version-decider and coding-style-decider-person
684 2012-04-09 15:11:32 <Diapolo> gavinandresen: what was that compile error above with my pull req.?
685 2012-04-09 15:12:09 <jgarzik> sipa: sounds good
686 2012-04-09 15:12:13 <sipa> luke-jr: well-defined, no hungarian stuff
687 2012-04-09 15:12:14 <gavinandresen> Diapolo: see http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/273/console
688 2012-04-09 15:12:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: please no
689 2012-04-09 15:12:29 <luke-jr> sipa: coding-standard is/was well-defined too
690 2012-04-09 15:13:15 <sipa> sure, but less extensive
691 2012-04-09 15:13:24 <sipa> as i said, the only thing i liked about it was consistency
692 2012-04-09 15:13:41 <sipa> General exception
693 2012-04-09 15:13:42 <sipa> Feel free to break a rule if it makes your code look bad.
694 2012-04-09 15:13:44 <sipa> haha
695 2012-04-09 15:14:06 <jgarzik> Coding style rules MUST be like "pirate rules": ...more like guidelines than enforced rules
696 2012-04-09 15:14:30 <jgarzik> the end goal is always human readability
697 2012-04-09 15:14:59 <jgarzik> see Knuth's literate programming for even more radical ideas
698 2012-04-09 15:15:08 * luke-jr would like to see "easy to work with" as a goal
699 2012-04-09 15:15:23 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin in WEB (literate pascal)!
700 2012-04-09 15:15:25 <Joric> i mostly use egyptian brackets now, god how i hated them
701 2012-04-09 15:15:25 <luke-jr> it's a pain to replace tabs with spaces all the time
702 2012-04-09 15:15:42 <sipa> why do you start with tabs at all?
703 2012-04-09 15:15:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: hehehe
704 2012-04-09 15:15:50 <luke-jr> sipa: because tabs are the Right Way
705 2012-04-09 15:16:05 <gmaxwell> 0_o but whatever, its shed painting.
706 2012-04-09 15:16:05 <sipa> right; another dogma
707 2012-04-09 15:16:19 <luke-jr> tabs exist just for indentation :p
708 2012-04-09 15:16:25 <sipa> yes, and they failed
709 2012-04-09 15:16:32 <luke-jr> â¦
710 2012-04-09 15:16:33 <jgarzik> yeah, I hate the whole bitcoin space thing. Linux does 1 tab == 1 ident level, far superior. But I am _not_ advocating we change all of bitcoin to that, as much as I would personally like to
711 2012-04-09 15:16:33 <sipa> because people couldn't agree about them
712 2012-04-09 15:16:44 <luke-jr> sipa: the point of tabs is that people don't *have* to agree about them
713 2012-04-09 15:17:02 <jgarzik> K&R started the 1 tab = 1 ident level tradition, and a good tradition it is :)
714 2012-04-09 15:17:02 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: so people set tabs based on personal perferences (reasonable) but then its impossible to make code line up in logcial ways (a reasonable expectation).
715 2012-04-09 15:17:07 <Joric> deserves two new BIP's
716 2012-04-09 15:17:29 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not at all. tabs line up just fine, no matter how you set them to appear
717 2012-04-09 15:17:48 <sipa> luke-jr: consider this:
718 2012-04-09 15:17:49 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: only with other tabbed whitespace.
719 2012-04-09 15:17:52 <Diapolo> gavinandresen: I don't really know, why this happens ... boost 1.47 is used with Gitian, right?
720 2012-04-09 15:18:00 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: which should be all indentation :p
721 2012-04-09 15:18:08 <sipa> bool test = (long thing)
722 2012-04-09 15:18:15 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: but you don't just want to align indentation.
723 2012-04-09 15:18:23 <sipa> || (other long thing);
724 2012-04-09 15:19:06 <luke-jr> <tab>bool test = (long thing)
725 2012-04-09 15:19:08 <luke-jr> <tab> || (other long thing);
726 2012-04-09 15:19:38 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: thats pretty tricky to get right as its not obvious you got your mixed-tabs-spaces wrong until you change your tabsize.
727 2012-04-09 15:19:39 <sipa> ok, so all "esthetic" indentation is done used spaces, all the rest using tabs?
728 2012-04-09 15:19:52 <sipa> what gmaxwell said
729 2012-04-09 15:20:06 <luke-jr> sipa: your "esthetic" indentation isn't indentation :p
730 2012-04-09 15:20:09 <gavinandresen> Joric: RE: your brainwallet: before endorsing anything like that I'd like to see somebody put 10 bitcoins into 10 brainwallets that they memorize, and then challenge hackers to figure out one of the passphrases. Even better, recruit 10 ordinary people to generate brainwallet passphrases, then deposit 100 bitcoins in each of them and then see if they can get hacked in, say, six months.
731 2012-04-09 15:20:41 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I would strongly encourage you not to endorse such a thing. I'm currently in the process of writing a scathing article against it.
732 2012-04-09 15:20:43 Diablo-D3 has joined
733 2012-04-09 15:20:58 * sipa looks forward
734 2012-04-09 15:21:19 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: moreover, your test has already failed. Before Joric created this he scanned for known words â found that "fuckyou" was a valid key, and IIRC took the coins.
735 2012-04-09 15:21:25 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: why would you get tabs/spaces wrong in the first place? :P
736 2012-04-09 15:21:28 <jgarzik> Back to somewhat relevance to bitcoin. Consensus seems to dislike Hungarian notation, which means a new style should be preferred. Are we all ok with Qt-style "someVariable"? Qt and bitcoin are consistent in that most names have a lower-case starting letter. Switching to Qt style FOR NEW CODE would mean "nValue" would become "value", etc.
737 2012-04-09 15:21:34 RainbowDashh has joined
738 2012-04-09 15:21:34 <_Fireball> you may want to play with autoindenting software and get it to (periodically or pre-commit hook) autoindent all code with the settings you decide.
739 2012-04-09 15:21:35 <sipa> gavinandresen: which may have been intentional
740 2012-04-09 15:21:59 <sipa> _Fireball: no - that would break all existing patches
741 2012-04-09 15:21:59 <jgarzik> tabs/spaces is an emacs/vi argument :)
742 2012-04-09 15:22:09 <_Fireball> yep indeed it will
743 2012-04-09 15:22:18 <sipa> _Fireball: i would very much like the obtained consistancy because of it, but we simply can't do that
744 2012-04-09 15:22:20 <luke-jr> I don't particularly dislike Hungarian notation, since it gives sensible names for casting between types and such, but I don't mind Qt camelcase either.
745 2012-04-09 15:22:46 <luke-jr> (ie, pszP2SH and vchP2SH)
746 2012-04-09 15:23:02 <Diablo-D3> true hungarian notation is fine
747 2012-04-09 15:23:13 <Diablo-D3> its that bastardized form that became popular at microsoft that fucks it over
748 2012-04-09 15:23:18 <gmaxwell> In strongly typed languages hungarian notation seems kind of pointless... then again, see the testnet timestamp bug.
749 2012-04-09 15:23:45 <_Fireball> sipa - it gets harder and harder as time (development) goes
750 2012-04-09 15:24:02 <sipa> _Fireball: yes, we're way past that point already, i think
751 2012-04-09 15:24:11 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I wonder why people consider C not strongly typed.
752 2012-04-09 15:24:14 <_Fireball> I don't remember exactly,but some large opensource projects actually implement this policy
753 2012-04-09 15:24:23 <Joric> gmaxwell, take into account it's completely clientside and runs from public git repository
754 2012-04-09 15:24:52 <t7> Diablo-D3: arithmatic operations silently cast
755 2012-04-09 15:25:07 <Diablo-D3> t7: no, you can turn that on
756 2012-04-09 15:25:09 <gmaxwell> Its completely client side _this_ time I load it.. or maybe it's not, can you certify that there are no MITM between me and you?
757 2012-04-09 15:25:10 <Diablo-D3> -Wcast-something
758 2012-04-09 15:25:11 <Joric> unfortunately github doesnt support ssl for pages i doubt it's even needed in this case
759 2012-04-09 15:25:28 <gmaxwell> Joric: but thats an implementation detail.
760 2012-04-09 15:25:31 <wumpus> we should work on making it possible to enable compiler warnings, in general
761 2012-04-09 15:25:40 <sipa> wumpus: indeed
762 2012-04-09 15:25:49 <Diablo-D3> heh, libmowgli enables everything useful ;)
763 2012-04-09 15:25:52 <gavinandresen> speaking of the testnet timestamp bug... should we reset the testnet for 0.6.1 ?
764 2012-04-09 15:25:59 <Diablo-D3> -Wall -Wextra and NOT -pedantic
765 2012-04-09 15:26:00 <wumpus> that's much more important than some code asthethic stuff
766 2012-04-09 15:26:11 <Diablo-D3> -pedantic has gotten very fucking stupid in newer gccs
767 2012-04-09 15:26:16 <gmaxwell> Joric: in any case, no worries I'll run what I write by you before publishing it elsewhere.
768 2012-04-09 15:26:18 <sipa> gavinandresen: ack, full reset
769 2012-04-09 15:26:33 <sipa> to clean up the mess left by the frequent splitting changes
770 2012-04-09 15:26:34 <Diablo-D3> it bitches about stuff that is perfectly valid in C specifications and valid compilers
771 2012-04-09 15:26:44 <gmaxwell> ack on full reset.. it's a mess now.
772 2012-04-09 15:27:05 <wumpus> a full reset in a .1 release?
773 2012-04-09 15:27:09 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: cardpuncher opened issue 1069 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1069>
774 2012-04-09 15:27:14 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: er... I've never seen pedantic be incorrect.
775 2012-04-09 15:27:23 <luke-jr> wumpus: it's just a testnet, after all :P
776 2012-04-09 15:27:36 <luke-jr> though I don't see the need for a reset personally.
777 2012-04-09 15:27:39 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
778 2012-04-09 15:27:39 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: its not incorrect, its too bitchy
779 2012-04-09 15:27:41 <wumpus> yes, it's fine with me, but just needed to ask that question :-)
780 2012-04-09 15:27:43 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it didnt use to be
781 2012-04-09 15:27:45 <t7> Diablo-D3: just because its valid c doesnt make it safe/sane
782 2012-04-09 15:27:49 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: it's ... pedantic.
783 2012-04-09 15:28:00 <wumpus> you get what you ask for
784 2012-04-09 15:28:12 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yes, -pedantic is supposed to be warnings that the code as written may not strictly comply to the spec
785 2012-04-09 15:28:25 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes, and you can tell it which spec to test against.
786 2012-04-09 15:28:43 <Diablo-D3> yes, and when I tell it c99, and I know damned well my code is 100% c99 compliant, it should shut the hell up
787 2012-04-09 15:29:45 <wumpus> in that case you should file a bug
788 2012-04-09 15:29:57 <Diablo-D3> meh
789 2012-04-09 15:30:06 <Diablo-D3> I am _not_ filing a bug on gcc
790 2012-04-09 15:30:13 <Diablo-D3> no way in hell Im falling into that trap
791 2012-04-09 15:30:21 <gmaxwell> Why? GCC dev's are super responsive if your bug isn't BS.
792 2012-04-09 15:31:05 <Diablo-D3> because they're probably going to come up with a valid reason why -pedantic is correct even though its not
793 2012-04-09 15:31:09 ThomasV has joined
794 2012-04-09 15:31:10 erle- has joined
795 2012-04-09 15:31:31 <sipa> any opinion about the git-describe based version id's in buildinfo: a marker for dirty code or not?
796 2012-04-09 15:31:51 <luke-jr> sipa: if possible IMO
797 2012-04-09 15:31:55 <gmaxwell> hm. How do you get a dirty code marker?
798 2012-04-09 15:32:05 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I dunno, it should honestly refuse to build if its dirty
799 2012-04-09 15:32:09 <gmaxwell> And yes, sure, pleaseâ if there is a sane way to get that.
800 2012-04-09 15:32:16 * gmaxwell stabs Diablo-D3
801 2012-04-09 15:32:18 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, refuse to build a release
802 2012-04-09 15:32:46 <sipa> Diablo-D3: releases are done using gitian, that's simply impossible to do without committing
803 2012-04-09 15:32:47 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: our multi-build release process already solves that bug.
804 2012-04-09 15:33:10 <sipa> my latest build has version v0.6.0-66-gad5c019-beta
805 2012-04-09 15:33:33 <luke-jr> can we stop abusing "beta" and just label it "experimental version"? :p
806 2012-04-09 15:33:35 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: k
807 2012-04-09 15:33:40 <paulo_> any truth in this: http://www.bitcoinplus.com/user/fees
808 2012-04-09 15:33:43 <sipa> that would become v0.6.0-66-gad5c019-dirty-beta is it was built from a non-clean working dir
809 2012-04-09 15:33:56 * sipa likes "dirty beta"
810 2012-04-09 15:33:57 <gmaxwell> paulo_: there is nothing there
811 2012-04-09 15:33:59 <gmaxwell> haha
812 2012-04-09 15:34:00 <wumpus> sounds good sipa
813 2012-04-09 15:34:12 <Diapolo> The filesystem changes compile fine with boost 1.47 here on Windows :-/ dunno what causes the build failure http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/273/changes
814 2012-04-09 15:34:17 <gmaxwell> paulo_: copy the text into a pastebin
815 2012-04-09 15:34:47 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
816 2012-04-09 15:35:58 <sipa> v0.6.0.99-66-gad5c019-dirty-beta, actually
817 2012-04-09 15:36:15 <Diablo-D3> dirty beta... would make a good name for a band
818 2012-04-09 15:37:47 <paulo_> http://pastebin.com/ZYSRJVsB
819 2012-04-09 15:38:07 <paulo_> the withdrawal I was making was higher than 0.01
820 2012-04-09 15:38:31 <paulo_> i think it's bs
821 2012-04-09 15:38:42 <luke-jr> paulo_: sounds about right
822 2012-04-09 15:38:48 <luke-jr> maybe oversimplified, but basically right
823 2012-04-09 15:39:06 <sipa> it's a lot less nowadays
824 2012-04-09 15:39:47 <luke-jr> sipa: depends on what bitcoind he's using
825 2012-04-09 15:40:02 <sipa> he's talking about the network, not his client :)
826 2012-04-09 15:40:19 <luke-jr> the network doesn't calculate it :p
827 2012-04-09 15:40:57 <Jezzz> i'm looking through the bitcoind api, but can't seem to find a command to pull block info by number
828 2012-04-09 15:41:03 <Jezzz> does such a command exist?
829 2012-04-09 15:41:19 <sipa> Jezzz: getblockhash
830 2012-04-09 15:41:25 <sipa> tells you the id of a block by height
831 2012-04-09 15:41:30 <sipa> and then getblock <thathash>
832 2012-04-09 15:42:16 <Jezzz> getblockhash(<block#>) ?
833 2012-04-09 15:42:21 <sipa> yes
834 2012-04-09 15:42:26 <Jezzz> ta
835 2012-04-09 15:42:27 * Jezzz tries
836 2012-04-09 15:50:08 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
837 2012-04-09 15:51:46 da2ce7 has joined
838 2012-04-09 15:54:42 <Tykling> sipa: do you know what decides the final binary filename ? bitcoin or bitcoind ?
839 2012-04-09 15:55:06 <sipa> the wx-gui bitcoin binary was called "bitcoin", the gui-less version was called bitcoind
840 2012-04-09 15:55:20 <sipa> nowadays bitcoin is not used anymore, and it's bitcoin-qt and bitcoin
841 2012-04-09 15:55:57 <Tykling> okay, so if I manage to get it to build the QT gui the binary will be called bitcoin-qt
842 2012-04-09 15:56:17 <Jezzz> sipa: bash: syntax error near unexpected token `('
843 2012-04-09 15:56:37 <Jezzz> when I: bitcoind getblockhash(173375)
844 2012-04-09 15:56:56 lady_awk has quit (Quit: Leaving)
845 2012-04-09 15:57:37 <sipa> Jezzz: no braces
846 2012-04-09 15:58:21 <Jezzz> error: {"code":-32601,"message":"Method not found"}
847 2012-04-09 15:58:30 <sipa> which version?
848 2012-04-09 15:58:38 <Jezzz> 50200
849 2012-04-09 15:58:46 <sipa> was only added in 0.6.0
850 2012-04-09 15:58:52 <sipa> afaik
851 2012-04-09 15:58:56 <Jezzz> k
852 2012-04-09 15:58:59 <Jezzz> that explains it then
853 2012-04-09 16:00:29 <Jezzz> thx again
854 2012-04-09 16:01:13 splatster has joined
855 2012-04-09 16:04:25 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
856 2012-04-09 16:05:45 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
857 2012-04-09 16:09:28 bitfoo has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
858 2012-04-09 16:11:44 Diapolo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
859 2012-04-09 16:12:46 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
860 2012-04-09 16:13:10 molecular has joined
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862 2012-04-09 16:20:02 dr_win has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
863 2012-04-09 16:20:32 dr_win has joined
864 2012-04-09 16:31:14 <Joric> someone tagged wiki article as crazy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin
865 2012-04-09 16:32:13 abracadabra has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
866 2012-04-09 16:34:23 <Joric> 'This page was nominated for deletion on 14 July 2010. The result of the discussion was delete.' :D
867 2012-04-09 16:35:02 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
868 2012-04-09 16:35:05 <sipa> well, its notability certainly increased since then
869 2012-04-09 16:35:35 <luke-jr> not really
870 2012-04-09 16:35:49 <luke-jr> the problem is, Wikipedia insists on the article being about *the software*
871 2012-04-09 16:36:14 <luke-jr> and everyone knows it should be about the system/protocol
872 2012-04-09 16:38:28 <Diablo-D3> wikipedia is non-notable, so it doesnt really matter
873 2012-04-09 16:39:38 abracadab has joined
874 2012-04-09 16:39:38 abracadab has quit (Changing host)
875 2012-04-09 16:39:38 abracadab has joined
876 2012-04-09 16:41:42 <Diablo-D3> Joric: fixed.
877 2012-04-09 16:44:07 Lyspooner has joined
878 2012-04-09 16:49:41 ForceMajeure has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
879 2012-04-09 16:51:13 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: If you think nobody cares, try missing a few payments)
880 2012-04-09 16:55:23 barmstro_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
881 2012-04-09 16:59:36 * BlueMatt is getting really tired of people posting their own address as the example address on wikipedia...
882 2012-04-09 17:02:31 cdecker has joined
883 2012-04-09 17:04:11 dxtr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
884 2012-04-09 17:05:15 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
885 2012-04-09 17:08:24 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
886 2012-04-09 17:08:29 <BlueMatt> wait, wtf? [Tycho] pays everything out from 1VayNert, but doesnt generate everything to 1VayNert?
887 2012-04-09 17:08:34 <BlueMatt> WHY?????
888 2012-04-09 17:09:06 * BlueMatt becomes more and more disappointed in [Tycho]'s inability to run a proper pool every day...
889 2012-04-09 17:10:54 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: well, he should be fucking using gen tx
890 2012-04-09 17:11:16 <BlueMatt> he shouldn't be running a pool
891 2012-04-09 17:11:47 * copumpkin feels the rumble of a flamewar
892 2012-04-09 17:11:50 <Graet> i ont generate anything to my payout address, why consolidate funds for potential hackers?
893 2012-04-09 17:12:04 <BlueMatt> Graet: he already does consolidate his funds
894 2012-04-09 17:12:10 <BlueMatt> he just wastes more chain space to do it
895 2012-04-09 17:12:46 Cablesaurus has joined
896 2012-04-09 17:12:46 Cablesaurus has quit (Changing host)
897 2012-04-09 17:12:46 Cablesaurus has joined
898 2012-04-09 17:12:53 dxtr has joined
899 2012-04-09 17:12:58 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: flamewar? [Tycho] does a ton of stuff wrong... thats not flaming, thats fact
900 2012-04-09 17:13:42 <copumpkin> it turns into flaming when he responds angrily to your statement :)
901 2012-04-09 17:14:03 <BlueMatt> meh, he knows hes doing it wrong he just "doesnt have time" to fix it
902 2012-04-09 17:14:13 <BlueMatt> ie, he shouldnt be running a pool if he doesnt have time to do it right
903 2012-04-09 17:15:06 <copumpkin> why does everyone use it? does it actually have advantages over other pools, or is it mostly brand recognition?
904 2012-04-09 17:15:33 <BlueMatt> its what people use, thus they use it
905 2012-04-09 17:15:46 <BlueMatt> it was around before a ton of other pools, so it got established first
906 2012-04-09 17:15:53 <copumpkin> so the latter
907 2012-04-09 17:15:59 <BlueMatt> yea
908 2012-04-09 17:16:11 <Graet> its the biggest, lots of new ppl just join the biggest "coz it must be best" then set and forget
909 2012-04-09 17:16:23 <BlueMatt> when, in fact, its one of the worst...
910 2012-04-09 17:16:37 <Graet> most expensive
911 2012-04-09 17:16:48 <BlueMatt> most expensive, and broken in quite a few ways
912 2012-04-09 17:17:02 <BlueMatt> (use p2pool)
913 2012-04-09 17:17:21 <Graet> or ozcoin
914 2012-04-09 17:17:39 <BlueMatt> why ozcoin, it is just yet another getwork pool?
915 2012-04-09 17:17:45 Zarutian has joined
916 2012-04-09 17:17:47 <Graet> its my pool
917 2012-04-09 17:18:21 <BlueMatt> ok, so add getmemorypool mining, and punish those who dont use it
918 2012-04-09 17:18:25 <Graet> p2pool isnt a solution for everyone
919 2012-04-09 17:18:26 <BlueMatt> then people can recommend it
920 2012-04-09 17:18:39 <Graet> link?
921 2012-04-09 17:19:02 <BlueMatt> luke-jr put together most of the getmemorypool stuff afaik
922 2012-04-09 17:19:14 maqr has joined
923 2012-04-09 17:19:14 maqr has quit (Changing host)
924 2012-04-09 17:19:15 maqr has joined
925 2012-04-09 17:19:16 <Graet> k
926 2012-04-09 17:19:57 <BlueMatt> what, you dont do gen payouts either???
927 2012-04-09 17:20:04 <BlueMatt> ffs
928 2012-04-09 17:20:28 <Graet> unsure how to do that with DGM, we pay between 40 and 65btc a block
929 2012-04-09 17:21:08 <luke-jr> Graet: BIP 22
930 2012-04-09 17:21:13 <Graet> we have looked at it
931 2012-04-09 17:21:35 <luke-jr> Graet: SMPPS pays a more-variable amount per block, and Eligius still gens payouts
932 2012-04-09 17:21:37 <Graet> how do i generate 61btc from 50?
933 2012-04-09 17:21:39 <luke-jr> Graet: ecoinpool supports it, too
934 2012-04-09 17:21:47 <luke-jr> Graet: you just don't pay it *all* out that way
935 2012-04-09 17:21:56 <luke-jr> I presume some of your miners want it on-demand?
936 2012-04-09 17:22:11 <luke-jr> ie, a payout button
937 2012-04-09 17:22:16 <BlueMatt> you just try to pay out as much as possible in gen txes so you dont just create ridiculous tx counts
938 2012-04-09 17:22:17 <Graet> none are demanding it (or veven asking for it)
939 2012-04-09 17:22:40 <luke-jr> Graet: Eligius just waits for a 40 BTC block, and makes up for the prior blocks :p
940 2012-04-09 17:22:47 <BlueMatt> though you also want to keep total txouts/miner down
941 2012-04-09 17:22:48 <Graet> auto payout rund every 10 mins
942 2012-04-09 17:23:07 <BlueMatt> wait, wat? you payout every 10 minutes?
943 2012-04-09 17:23:22 <BlueMatt> please tell me you atleast make sure people have a balance of like .05 btc before you payout?
944 2012-04-09 17:23:30 <BlueMatt> or limit people to payouts every ~24 hours
945 2012-04-09 17:23:33 <luke-jr> .05 BTC is too small, IMO
946 2012-04-09 17:23:33 <Graet> no a script runs every 1o mins that pays out to accounts over threshold
947 2012-04-09 17:23:49 <Graet> most go over threshold at same time... due to blocks'
948 2012-04-09 17:24:04 <Graet> 0.1 min
949 2012-04-09 17:24:14 <BlueMatt> please tell me you limit individual payouts so that eg a big miner wont get paid out every 10 mintes
950 2012-04-09 17:24:24 <Graet> they cant
951 2012-04-09 17:24:27 <BlueMatt> (if you dont, tell me you do anyway, and go implement it)
952 2012-04-09 17:24:38 <Graet> funds sdont get credited to thier accounts every 10m mimns
953 2012-04-09 17:24:57 <BlueMatt> please tell me you limit credits to eg once/day
954 2012-04-09 17:25:11 <Graet> nyway its 1am again, never did find the "poolowners guide"
955 2012-04-09 17:25:18 <Graet> mnight
956 2012-04-09 17:25:33 Joric has quit ()
957 2012-04-09 17:26:01 <BlueMatt> one of the few advantages regular pools have over p2pool that makes them more "good for bitcoin" is they can hold coins and limit payouts
958 2012-04-09 17:26:14 <BlueMatt> maybe p2pool could with some crazy multisig setup, but thats very unrealistic
959 2012-04-09 17:26:41 <BlueMatt> and what makes most pools "bad for bitcoin" (aside from the centralization) is just the scary number of txes some of them generate
960 2012-04-09 17:26:45 <BlueMatt> (Im looking at you [Tycho] )
961 2012-04-09 17:28:04 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: please tell me at least you limit people to payouts only eg once/day
962 2012-04-09 17:28:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: nope.
963 2012-04-09 17:28:47 <luke-jr> once/block
964 2012-04-09 17:28:51 <BlueMatt> :(
965 2012-04-09 17:29:08 <luke-jr> over 400 TBC minimum
966 2012-04-09 17:29:23 <BlueMatt> can you atleast do like once/hour
967 2012-04-09 17:29:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: we don't find blocks that often
968 2012-04-09 17:29:47 <luke-jr> so it's not a problem
969 2012-04-09 17:30:15 <luke-jr> and limiting it like that would make it less likely to use a generation for payout
970 2012-04-09 17:30:45 Radium has joined
971 2012-04-09 17:30:49 <BlueMatt> 3 gen payouts to one person is worse than one regular payout to one person
972 2012-04-09 17:30:57 <BlueMatt> though I suppose 2 is ~the same
973 2012-04-09 17:33:59 user__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
974 2012-04-09 17:35:25 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: in practice, the faster miners end up waiting beyond 400 TBC minimums due to the block sizes
975 2012-04-09 17:35:46 <luke-jr> if I have 100 BTC owed for payout, I pick the 50 BTC waiting the longest, which is generally the slowest miners
976 2012-04-09 17:35:58 <luke-jr> so it all works out pretty well in the end
977 2012-04-09 17:36:47 user__ has joined
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979 2012-04-09 17:37:09 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
980 2012-04-09 17:37:30 amtal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
981 2012-04-09 17:38:25 amtal has joined
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983 2012-04-09 17:44:25 <[Tycho]> Hello.
984 2012-04-09 17:44:47 <BlueMatt> hi
985 2012-04-09 17:44:53 barmstrong has joined
986 2012-04-09 17:45:00 <[Tycho]> What is good in holding coins ?
987 2012-04-09 17:45:09 <sipa> a bag
988 2012-04-09 17:45:11 <BlueMatt> you can pay out less often
989 2012-04-09 17:45:22 <BlueMatt> its only good if you are actually going to pay out less often
990 2012-04-09 17:46:41 amtal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
991 2012-04-09 17:46:46 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers.)
992 2012-04-09 17:46:46 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
993 2012-04-09 17:47:30 <[Tycho]> Generating everything to VayNert won't make things way better. It's better as it is now.
994 2012-04-09 17:48:10 amtal has joined
995 2012-04-09 17:48:54 Zarutian has joined
996 2012-04-09 17:48:57 <BlueMatt> what? it would mean less txes
997 2012-04-09 17:49:04 zeiris has joined
998 2012-04-09 17:49:09 <BlueMatt> which is the whole point
999 2012-04-09 17:49:22 <BlueMatt> if you generate to X you then have to send from X to VayNert and then pay out
1000 2012-04-09 17:49:33 <BlueMatt> if you generate to VayNert, you can skip that tx
1001 2012-04-09 17:49:50 <[Tycho]> It's a negligible fraction of total TXes.
1002 2012-04-09 17:50:05 <luke-jr> only because you spam so much otherwise
1003 2012-04-09 17:50:22 <[Tycho]> Just 1-2 in a hour.
1004 2012-04-09 17:50:30 <gmaxwell> yea, I don't think where it goes for generation matters much. It would be nice to skip that one, but its not important. E.g. if [Tycho] was only using 2x more transactions than needed then .. oh well.
1005 2012-04-09 17:51:01 <BlueMatt> yea, but changing to generate to VayNert is like a one line patch and cuts down on tx volume
1006 2012-04-09 17:51:06 <[Tycho]> Also it would make my blocks more unique.
1007 2012-04-09 17:51:14 <sipa> just implement a payout maximum of once per day, with optionally a button "pay me now" that always works
1008 2012-04-09 17:51:19 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: you're generating a new address per new potential block?
1009 2012-04-09 17:51:34 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: yes. Like normal bitcoind does.
1010 2012-04-09 17:51:53 <luke-jr> [Tycho] should switch to Eloipool :P
1011 2012-04-09 17:52:01 <luke-jr> would solve most of his problems
1012 2012-04-09 17:52:19 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: should actually do things right
1013 2012-04-09 17:52:23 <sipa> i'm sure he'll say now he does not have problems
1014 2012-04-09 17:52:26 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: yeah, I can see why you'd do that
1015 2012-04-09 17:52:28 <[Tycho]> The only problem is some people not like my volume of TXes.
1016 2012-04-09 17:52:38 <BlueMatt> ...
1017 2012-04-09 17:52:40 * BlueMatt facepalms
1018 2012-04-09 17:52:43 <Diablo-D3> you should still use gen txes for all payout though
1019 2012-04-09 17:52:51 <BlueMatt> some people dont like my spam
1020 2012-04-09 17:52:53 <Diablo-D3> you're already jewing people out of fees
1021 2012-04-09 17:52:58 <BlueMatt> Im sorry for those people but fuck them
1022 2012-04-09 17:52:59 <Diablo-D3> might as well minimize it
1023 2012-04-09 17:53:01 <BlueMatt> wat?
1024 2012-04-09 17:53:01 <[Tycho]> Which can be improved and will be fixed. But it's not a problem.
1025 2012-04-09 17:53:10 <BlueMatt> wat?
1026 2012-04-09 17:53:33 <[Tycho]> Out of fees ? Why ?
1027 2012-04-09 17:53:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: i doubt you'll change his mind
1028 2012-04-09 17:54:00 <BlueMatt> no, but that doesnt mean hes right that his spam isnt a problem
1029 2012-04-09 17:54:04 <[Tycho]> No, I'm not going to use generation TXes for payment anytime soon.
1030 2012-04-09 17:54:29 <Diablo-D3> thats why your pool is out of date
1031 2012-04-09 17:54:33 <Diablo-D3> and it really should be shutdown
1032 2012-04-09 17:54:39 kiceek has joined
1033 2012-04-09 17:54:41 <Diablo-D3> it does more harm to bitcoin than good
1034 2012-04-09 17:54:52 <[Tycho]> Using gen TXes for payment is very bad idea.
1035 2012-04-09 17:54:55 * luke-jr notes it's in [Tycho]'s interest to NOT give people reason to use Deepbit.
1036 2012-04-09 17:55:03 <sipa> That's not priority either, imho. Generation vs payout txs is not the problem.
1037 2012-04-09 17:55:19 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: why? pay people based on percentage of last x shares
1038 2012-04-09 17:55:39 <luke-jr> â¦
1039 2012-04-09 17:55:39 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: because they won't be able to use this payment for 20 hours.
1040 2012-04-09 17:55:45 <Diablo-D3> so?
1041 2012-04-09 17:55:46 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: if someone wanted PPLNS, they'd probably use p2pool
1042 2012-04-09 17:55:56 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: like half this channel does.
1043 2012-04-09 17:56:07 * BlueMatt wishes someone would ddos deepbit out of existence already
1044 2012-04-09 17:56:11 <[Tycho]> It's bad for my users and will require much more difficult setup.
1045 2012-04-09 17:56:31 <sipa> [Tycho]: most people get paid once a month. hardly anyone cares about being paid immediately
1046 2012-04-09 17:56:44 <luke-jr> sipa: LOL, not on Deepbit
1047 2012-04-09 17:56:45 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: how many p2p pools are there now?
1048 2012-04-09 17:56:49 <sipa> as long as they can see the money is coming
1049 2012-04-09 17:56:57 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: 2
1050 2012-04-09 17:57:02 <Diablo-D3> whats the other one?
1051 2012-04-09 17:57:08 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: p2pool before BIP16
1052 2012-04-09 17:57:14 <Diablo-D3> hurrr
1053 2012-04-09 17:57:20 <sipa> luke-jr: difference between seeing money immediately and being able to spend it
1054 2012-04-09 17:57:33 <[Tycho]> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3889.msg830096#msg830096
1055 2012-04-09 17:57:48 denisx has joined
1056 2012-04-09 17:58:07 <[Tycho]> "But if block with coinbase TX is orphaned, this TX won't be re-mined automatically and I'll need to check it after 100 blocks and if it's lost then there is another 20 hours period to wait"
1057 2012-04-09 17:59:02 <sipa> ok, so no generation txs - i'm not convinced those are the best idea for a pool of his size
1058 2012-04-09 17:59:24 <sipa> but just limit the number of payout transactions,.please
1059 2012-04-09 17:59:35 <[Tycho]> It was always limited.
1060 2012-04-09 17:59:41 <sipa> to?
1061 2012-04-09 17:59:51 <[Tycho]> 1 autopayment per 24 hours.
1062 2012-04-09 18:00:24 <sipa> ok, now combine several payouts into one transaction and we're there
1063 2012-04-09 18:00:25 <[Tycho]> Otherwise the blockchain would be flooded.
1064 2012-04-09 18:00:41 <BlueMatt> you already flood the blockchain...
1065 2012-04-09 18:00:51 <[Tycho]> sipa: that's what I'm planning to do.
1066 2012-04-09 18:01:00 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: I mean REALLY flooded.
1067 2012-04-09 18:01:11 <BlueMatt> it already is REALLY flooded
1068 2012-04-09 18:01:25 * Diablo-D3 ponders
1069 2012-04-09 18:01:28 <Diablo-D3> I should start a pool.
1070 2012-04-09 18:01:45 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: you are talking about it for nearly 12 months.
1071 2012-04-09 18:01:54 <Diablo-D3> yes, but the joke keeps being funny
1072 2012-04-09 18:02:02 <Diablo-D3> its the one where 100% of payout just goes to me
1073 2012-04-09 18:02:08 <[Tycho]> Try it in java :)
1074 2012-04-09 18:02:18 <Diablo-D3> I wrote almost an entire pool solution in Java
1075 2012-04-09 18:02:22 <Diablo-D3> I never released it
1076 2012-04-09 18:02:31 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1077 2012-04-09 18:03:39 <[Tycho]> sipa: I'm writing a special piece of software for issuing payments from offline bitcoin storage for better security. It will use sendmany.
1078 2012-04-09 18:03:51 <sipa> good to hear!
1079 2012-04-09 18:03:56 <[Tycho]> *cold storage
1080 2012-04-09 18:05:46 <[Tycho]> And yes, I'll repeat that I know - sendmany is better. But don't blame me for flooding because I'm not breaking any rules.
1081 2012-04-09 18:06:03 <[Tycho]> That's not how you fix things.
1082 2012-04-09 18:06:03 <copumpkin> lol
1083 2012-04-09 18:06:14 <BlueMatt> and thats not a valid argument
1084 2012-04-09 18:06:34 * luke-jr wouldn't be breaking any rules to discourage Deepbit blocks eitherâ¦
1085 2012-04-09 18:06:43 <[Tycho]> Imagine that someone will start issuing 50% of pure flood TXes and you don't even know who it is. What will you do ?
1086 2012-04-09 18:06:47 <BlueMatt> dont blame me for sending spam, im not breaking any ruls
1087 2012-04-09 18:06:55 <BlueMatt> dont blame me for ddosing, im not breaking any rules
1088 2012-04-09 18:07:00 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: find a way to filter them out of my blocks
1089 2012-04-09 18:07:01 <BlueMatt> how is that a valid argument?
1090 2012-04-09 18:07:10 <kiceek> [Tycho], why all the hate for deepbit?
1091 2012-04-09 18:07:12 <luke-jr> DDoS breaks plenty of rules
1092 2012-04-09 18:07:13 dvide has joined
1093 2012-04-09 18:07:19 Cory has joined
1094 2012-04-09 18:07:21 <copumpkin> luke-jr: most email spam doesn't, really
1095 2012-04-09 18:07:27 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: in the same sense as spaming the chain, it does
1096 2012-04-09 18:07:31 <[Tycho]> kiceek: this hate is invalid and doesn't counts.
1097 2012-04-09 18:07:35 <copumpkin> lol
1098 2012-04-09 18:07:42 <BlueMatt> but its not against the technical rules of the internet
1099 2012-04-09 18:07:45 <sipa> [Tycho]: nobody claims you're breaking any rules, but that doesn't mean you're playing nicely
1100 2012-04-09 18:07:55 <sipa> anyway, good to hear progress is on the way
1101 2012-04-09 18:08:49 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: you are already not mining any free TXes, so that wouldn't make any difference.
1102 2012-04-09 18:09:17 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: if my existing filters already work, great
1103 2012-04-09 18:10:24 <[Tycho]> sipa: I don't want to say that I'm doing it intentionally, but if people think that blockchain bloating is a problem then it should be fixed in a way that doesn't require cooperation.
1104 2012-04-09 18:10:57 kiceek has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1105 2012-04-09 18:11:03 <[Tycho]> Popularize light clients already, change the rules or something else.
1106 2012-04-09 18:11:17 <[Tycho]> What will you do if bitcoin becomes mainstream ?
1107 2012-04-09 18:11:19 <gmaxwell> there are many different kinds of 'problems'... and us nagging you is also part of system.
1108 2012-04-09 18:11:43 <gmaxwell> If the blockchain traffic is high due to popularity then thats a great problem to have... the bloat will be justified by the increased value of the system.
1109 2012-04-09 18:11:44 smoothie has quit (Quit: changing servers)
1110 2012-04-09 18:12:06 <gmaxwell> But when it's bloated for reasons other than popularity then thats not great... it adds some friction that prevents it from ever becoming popular.
1111 2012-04-09 18:12:07 <[Tycho]> Requiring cooperation won't work with real evil ones or MMs.
1112 2012-04-09 18:12:32 smoothie has joined
1113 2012-04-09 18:12:44 <copumpkin> it's the spam problem. People don't really have a technical solution to it
1114 2012-04-09 18:12:49 <gmaxwell> Real evil doesn't currently have access to many TH/s of hash power... and if _you_ were evil we could solve you quite nicely.
1115 2012-04-09 18:12:57 <copumpkin> so all spammers should keep spamming until a technical solution is found
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1117 2012-04-09 18:13:17 <[Tycho]> copumpkin: I wouldn't use the "spam" term because I don't send any UNWANTED TXes.
1118 2012-04-09 18:13:26 <copumpkin> [Tycho]: well, everyone else does
1119 2012-04-09 18:13:42 <copumpkin> I'm sure email spammers call it "promotional material", too
1120 2012-04-09 18:13:44 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: and the prince of nigeria thinks others want their emails too
1121 2012-04-09 18:13:44 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: spamming isn't a problem for bitcoin currently.
1122 2012-04-09 18:13:58 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: I'm comparing it to the problem, not saying it's identical :P
1123 2012-04-09 18:14:00 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: issuing lots of TXes don't require lots of TH/s.
1124 2012-04-09 18:14:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: a lot of people complain about the size of blk*...Id call that a problem
1125 2012-04-09 18:14:13 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: our existing technical measures _are_ quite effective against anyone who doesn't control TH/s of hashpower.
1126 2012-04-09 18:14:41 <copumpkin> yeah, I'm just telling him that his excuses suck :)
1127 2012-04-09 18:15:19 <BlueMatt> hes not making sucky excuses, hes making completely invalid excuses
1128 2012-04-09 18:15:24 <[Tycho]> copumpkin: people are telling me their bitcoin addresses, so they explicitly want to receive TXes from me.
1129 2012-04-09 18:15:36 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: people have expectations which aren't realistically coorelated with how bitcoin works. A 1gb (or 10 for that matter) file isn't a problem for anything that isn't a mobile phone.
1130 2012-04-09 18:16:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, its not a "problem" in that its not /really/ hurting anyone, but when people see 1gb blk*, they complain, and that doesnt look good, even if its not a real technical problem
1131 2012-04-09 18:16:44 <copumpkin> it's just a monumental waste of resources
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1133 2012-04-09 18:18:04 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: Can you suggest an alternative completely decenteralized currency which uses less resources? :)
1134 2012-04-09 18:19:31 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: summary blocks?
1135 2012-04-09 18:19:45 <copumpkin> I don't have a technical solution to the problem
1136 2012-04-09 18:19:46 <[Tycho]> Don't panic, the problem is being worked on.
1137 2012-04-09 18:20:05 <[Tycho]> No one ever complained just one month ago.
1138 2012-04-09 18:20:25 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: I first complained >1 month ago.
1139 2012-04-09 18:20:35 <[Tycho]> Well, almost no one.
1140 2012-04-09 18:20:45 <gmaxwell> Actually, we complained to you in here about a year ago.
1141 2012-04-09 18:20:46 <copumpkin> I definitely remember people mentioning it a while ago
1142 2012-04-09 18:20:52 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: I complained a ton >1 month ago
1143 2012-04-09 18:20:58 <[Tycho]> May be after I switched to VayNert.
1144 2012-04-09 18:21:17 <gmaxwell> No, we complained long before you swithced to VayNeryâ though complained more once it was more visible.
1145 2012-04-09 18:21:19 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: one year ago ? Deepbit was very small then.
1146 2012-04-09 18:21:53 <sipa> Does this matter?
1147 2012-04-09 18:22:00 <[Tycho]> What ?
1148 2012-04-09 18:22:08 <sipa> When people started complaining.
1149 2012-04-09 18:25:02 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: my logs in here only go back 6 months or so but on Sep 24 2011 I have tcatm asking [Tycho] to use sendmany.
1150 2012-04-09 18:26:00 <luke-jr> my original reason for starting Eligius was because I didn't like how slush and Tycho paid out <.<
1151 2012-04-09 18:28:31 <[Tycho]> luke-jr is playing according to free market rules :)
1152 2012-04-09 18:29:16 <gmaxwell> Free market, enh?
1153 2012-04-09 18:29:52 <gmaxwell> I wonder how much it would cost to pay all miner maintainers to block connecting to deepbit, and to pay to put large anti-deepbit ads on the popular forums.
1154 2012-04-09 18:30:18 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: sure, as long as it advertises predictinator. ;)
1155 2012-04-09 18:30:20 <gmaxwell> Probably less than it would cost to start a competing pool. Eh, luke?
1156 2012-04-09 18:31:21 <gmaxwell> Personally I think that coperation is superior to ruthless compeition, in places where cooperation is possible.
1157 2012-04-09 18:32:22 <gmaxwell> and for something like not spamming up the blockchain, it isn't like spamming it confers some substantial competative advantage... cooperation for the good of bitcoin should be possible.
1158 2012-04-09 18:33:08 <gmaxwell> ... though I'll note, that all this discussion is making a pretty good argument as to why bitcoin users should not accept a block size increase: apparently the miners will not self-regulate absent hard technical limits.
1159 2012-04-09 18:35:11 <[Tycho]> Block size increase won't be needed in next years.
1160 2012-04-09 18:36:42 <luke-jr> it will be if you don't stop spamming :P
1161 2012-04-09 18:36:47 <gmaxwell> ::nods:: But your behavior actually argues that we should have decreased it nowâ because without the pressure for space in the chain, you're unwilling to take nearly costless measures to increase your space efficiency.
1162 2012-04-09 18:37:08 ThomasV has joined
1163 2012-04-09 18:37:14 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: why do you think so ? I'm working on it.
1164 2012-04-09 18:38:05 Cablesaurus has joined
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1167 2012-04-09 18:39:36 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: Ah. Well, I _thought_ you were working on it a long time ago. :) I'm really glad to hear that you're actually working on it now.
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1169 2012-04-09 18:40:02 <gmaxwell> When you do it then I'll have to eat my hat or something.
1170 2012-04-09 18:40:18 <[Tycho]> It's a bit difficult since deepbit's co-founder is against sendmany.
1171 2012-04-09 18:40:26 <gmaxwell> Ah.
1172 2012-04-09 18:40:29 <BlueMatt> your hat may decay to nothing before [Tycho] finishes...
1173 2012-04-09 18:40:49 <BlueMatt> who is the co-founder?
1174 2012-04-09 18:40:51 <gmaxwell> Thats sort of oddâ I don't know why someone would be actually against sendmany. Bored by sendmany sure...
1175 2012-04-09 18:41:23 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: he is elusive and don't really likes talking to living beings.
1176 2012-04-09 18:41:40 <[Tycho]> So all the public relations are on me.
1177 2012-04-09 18:41:44 <BlueMatt> so...satoshi is deepbit's co-founder
1178 2012-04-09 18:42:08 <copumpkin> lol
1179 2012-04-09 18:42:13 <gmaxwell> Pretty sure that satoshi wouldn't be concurrently opposed to using sendmany but supportive of a green address. :)
1180 2012-04-09 18:42:14 <copumpkin> [Tycho]: what doesn't he like about sendmany?
1181 2012-04-09 18:42:33 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: I'm not sure why, he doesn't likes to talk about it. I suppose it's to promote light clients. May be. But not sure.
1182 2012-04-09 18:42:36 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, ok anti-satoshi
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1186 2012-04-09 18:43:10 <[Tycho]> Or to prepare people for wide adoption.
1187 2012-04-09 18:43:41 <gmaxwell> Actual load will prepare people for wide adoption when it comes. :)
1188 2012-04-09 18:44:15 <gmaxwell> Ultimately the 1mb size limit will confine and punish stupid behaviors... but it would be nice if the blockchain were 10gb when it gets to that point instead of 40gb.
1189 2012-04-09 18:45:12 <gmaxwell> Every bit of unneeded load the system adds is a mark against the decentralization that makes the system worthwhile in the first place.
1190 2012-04-09 18:45:49 <[Tycho]> How it's related to decentralization ?
1191 2012-04-09 18:46:54 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: The fewer the number of people that run full nodes, the easier it is for a small group of people to change the rules of the system out from under the users.
1192 2012-04-09 18:47:52 <gmaxwell> E.g. at the limit.. say you were the only full node, and everyone else used lite nodesâ because full nodes were very costly to run so only the biggest pool runs oneâ then everyone using bitcoin would simply have to trust that you weren't just printing coin out of thin air with double transactions.
1193 2012-04-09 18:48:27 <gmaxwell> We're not willing to trust that elected (and presumably pretty transparent) governments won't do this, certantly a bitcoin system based on trusting you to do better.. wouldn't be very exciting to people.
1194 2012-04-09 18:48:36 <[Tycho]> Well, I think that most plain users will switch to light clients anyway in the future.
1195 2012-04-09 18:49:02 <[Tycho]> But there will be more than thousands of full nodes.
1196 2012-04-09 18:49:05 <gmaxwell> Most sure. But if bitcoin is to remain valuable there needs to be a very large and very well distributed base of full nodes... so that there is no incentive to cheat.
1197 2012-04-09 18:49:21 <gmaxwell> And every bit of additional cost in running a full node discourages parties from doing it.
1198 2012-04-09 18:49:28 <[Tycho]> Ok.
1199 2012-04-09 18:53:31 <sipa> what? ssh uses ECDSA these days? :o
1200 2012-04-09 18:53:40 <sipa> $ ssh localhost
1201 2012-04-09 18:53:40 <sipa> The authenticity of host 'localhost (127.0.0.1)' can't be established.
1202 2012-04-09 18:53:40 <sipa> ECDSA key fingerprint is 9f:30:f8:95:ec:51:d2:cc:b8:9c:6d:1f:47:6d:17:a5.
1203 2012-04-09 18:54:30 <luke-jr> sipa: yes
1204 2012-04-09 18:54:44 <sipa> nice
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1213 2012-04-09 19:21:48 <etotheipi_> going back over the earlier discussion about code formatting... I notice the Qt coding standard demands brances be on the same line as if/for/while...
1214 2012-04-09 19:22:23 <etotheipi_> what are people's opinions of this: I have always despised it, but never knew enough other programmers to verify if I'm in a minority or what
1215 2012-04-09 19:23:13 <Jezzz> is the best way to estimate network hash to use the time it took to find all of the previous blocks in the current difficulty? (the last 1611 blocks atm)
1216 2012-04-09 19:23:41 <etotheipi_> Jezzz: that will be used to set the next difficulty, but won't catch "sudden" movements in hashing power
1217 2012-04-09 19:24:06 <etotheipi_> if hashrate doubled in the last 24 hours, it would only be a tiny bump because you're calculating based on the last 200+ hours
1218 2012-04-09 19:24:39 <sipa> etotheipi_: i consider them a waste of space
1219 2012-04-09 19:24:40 <Jezzz> understood, is there a general rule for the # of blocks to use to estimate it?
1220 2012-04-09 19:25:11 <sipa> Jezzz: there are most certainly better ways
1221 2012-04-09 19:25:20 <Jezzz> sipa: i'm all ears ;)
1222 2012-04-09 19:25:23 <etotheipi_> sipa: I personally think it improves readability 10x... but maybe I never gave it enough of a chance
1223 2012-04-09 19:25:36 <sipa> etotheipi_: i think that's mostly a matter of experience
1224 2012-04-09 19:25:59 <Jezzz> 'bitcoind getnetworkhash' would be swell :P
1225 2012-04-09 19:26:02 <etotheipi_> sipa: I'm afraid so... to me it's obvious, but clearly not everyone agrees
1226 2012-04-09 19:27:56 <sipa> Jezzz: at bitcoin.sipa.be, i count every block as the number of hashes it required, use an exponentially-weighted window over that data, and then calculate the parameters for a poisson process with exponentially growing rate through it, using a maximum likelyhood estimator
1227 2012-04-09 19:28:19 * Jezzz reads that again, slowly
1228 2012-04-09 19:28:20 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: putting braces on the same line is crap IMO
1229 2012-04-09 19:28:21 <etotheipi_> sipa: I just suddenly started liking you more
1230 2012-04-09 19:29:26 <sipa> etotheipi_: it took me a while to come up with that, but the formulas turned out to be extremely simple
1231 2012-04-09 19:29:30 <etotheipi_> (I'm basically at a statistician, btw)
1232 2012-04-09 19:29:38 ForceMajeure has joined
1233 2012-04-09 19:30:05 <etotheipi_> maximum likelihood calculations seem really powerful to me, especially in certain situations where other techniques seem difficult
1234 2012-04-09 19:31:03 <sipa> http://sipa.be/static/bitcoin/estim_exp_math.txt
1235 2012-04-09 19:31:16 <Jezzz> *click*
1236 2012-04-09 19:31:23 <sipa> that's a very concise summary of what i got them; i wish i documented it more thoroughly
1237 2012-04-09 19:32:00 <sipa> Jezzz: i doubt it's much use to anyone but myself
1238 2012-04-09 19:32:04 <etotheipi_> I wish you had done it in LaTeX with greek chars :)
1239 2012-04-09 19:32:12 <Jezzz> mm, that's a bit beyond what I can accomplish without a prohibitive amount of research
1240 2012-04-09 19:32:33 <sipa> Jezzz: point it, it's extremely simple to implement
1241 2012-04-09 19:32:48 <Jezzz> i just need a quick and dirty way to estimate it
1242 2012-04-09 19:33:15 <etotheipi_> Jezzz, then grab the timestamps of the last 72 blocks (12 hours) or 144 blocks
1243 2012-04-09 19:33:25 <etotheipi_> compare to the difficulty
1244 2012-04-09 19:33:25 <Jezzz> suppose I can just hunt for an API laying around on someone's site, but I thought I'd give a go at calculating it myself
1245 2012-04-09 19:34:05 <etotheipi_> well actually, you don't need all the timestamps, you just need the last timestamp, and the timestamp for 72 blocks ago
1246 2012-04-09 19:34:40 <Jezzz> yep
1247 2012-04-09 19:34:41 <Jezzz> k
1248 2012-04-09 19:34:43 <Jezzz> i'll try that
1249 2012-04-09 19:35:01 <Jezzz> then i'll delve into the rocket science in sipa's .txt
1250 2012-04-09 19:35:20 <sipa> Jezzz: my algorithm's best guess for the current speed (using a window with tau = 3 days) is here: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-3D.txt
1251 2012-04-09 19:35:23 <sipa> in GH/s
1252 2012-04-09 19:35:39 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
1253 2012-04-09 19:35:39 <gribble> 11552.182894511254
1254 2012-04-09 19:36:06 <Jezzz> and that's updated every 3 days?
1255 2012-04-09 19:36:11 <sipa> every hour
1256 2012-04-09 19:36:30 <Jezzz> am I permitted to use it?
1257 2012-04-09 19:36:32 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: cardpuncher opened pull request 1070 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1070>
1258 2012-04-09 19:36:37 <sipa> of course
1259 2012-04-09 19:36:37 <Jezzz> (for basic bot function)
1260 2012-04-09 19:36:44 <Jezzz> great. ta
1261 2012-04-09 19:37:08 <Jezzz> i'll do that for a quick fix
1262 2012-04-09 19:38:02 <Jezzz> i like to minimize url requests from the bot, as they take a bit of time to roundtrip
1263 2012-04-09 19:39:54 <etotheipi_> anyone have experience with Qt QPalette ?
1264 2012-04-09 19:40:23 <etotheipi_> Armory needs a color makeover, using the user's palette instead of [mostly] hardcoded colors
1265 2012-04-09 19:42:23 <etotheipi_> specifically: I have this list of color-roles (http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/qpalette.html#ColorRole-enum)... but that's not enough for me: how do you deal with needing extra colors?
1266 2012-04-09 19:42:41 <etotheipi_> do you take existing palette colors and tweak their RGB values?
1267 2012-04-09 19:44:19 <sipa> etotheipi_: i don't know anything about GUI libraries, sorry :)
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1269 2012-04-09 19:44:39 <etotheipi_> sipa: my problem is, I don't know, either :-|
1270 2012-04-09 19:44:57 <sipa> you've done a pretty nice job so far, still ;)
1271 2012-04-09 19:45:14 <etotheipi_> sipa: I spent a LOT of time polishing stuff... and wishing I had figured out certain techniques earlier
1272 2012-04-09 19:45:25 <etotheipi_> sipa: thanks
1273 2012-04-09 19:45:51 <etotheipi_> but now that userbase is expanding, i need to do this right: (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56424.msg841165#msg841165)
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1278 2012-04-09 20:05:33 <DrHaribo> "Transaction creation failed" trying to send 85588.52613501 coins. Is it hitting a transaction size limit?
1279 2012-04-09 20:06:02 erle- has quit (Client Quit)
1280 2012-04-09 20:06:16 <etotheipi_> DrHaribo: are you trying to send me a donation?
1281 2012-04-09 20:06:26 <DrHaribo> etotheipi_: How did you know :)
1282 2012-04-09 20:06:51 <etotheipi_> it should always construct fine, unless it has to combine hundreds of inputs
1283 2012-04-09 20:06:57 <etotheipi_> is this regular satoshi wallet?
1284 2012-04-09 20:07:12 <DrHaribo> Yeah, bitcoind. And it would be hundreds of inputs, yes.
1285 2012-04-09 20:07:16 <DrHaribo> I guess that's the problem?
1286 2012-04-09 20:07:32 <etotheipi_> let's see... it should still "let you" do it... if you pay a huge fee
1287 2012-04-09 20:08:19 <etotheipi_> let's see... 200 inputs would be like a 30 kB tx, approximately?
1288 2012-04-09 20:08:55 <etotheipi_> (hold on, I'm reminding myself what the fee schedule is like)
1289 2012-04-09 20:09:31 <sipa> that error should never occur
1290 2012-04-09 20:10:45 <DrHaribo> I can send small amounts fine, but not that big amount
1291 2012-04-09 20:10:47 <etotheipi_> oh... it's linear fee as a funciton of size? MIN_TX_FEE * (1+numkB)
1292 2012-04-09 20:11:14 Diapolo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1293 2012-04-09 20:11:18 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: yes, if the transaction isn't free.
1294 2012-04-09 20:11:42 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I thought there was an exponential function in there somewhere
1295 2012-04-09 20:11:51 <gmaxwell> (and the division to get numkb is truncating)
1296 2012-04-09 20:12:20 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: there is something kind of like that for the _mining_ rules as the block fills up.. but for relay, it's just the linear thing.
1297 2012-04-09 20:13:32 p0s has joined
1298 2012-04-09 20:13:53 <luke-jr> "Transaction creation failed" = out of memory, i think
1299 2012-04-09 20:13:59 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1300 2012-04-09 20:14:10 <luke-jr> I get it sometimesâ¦
1301 2012-04-09 20:14:29 <DrHaribo> I have over 2 GB memory free on that system
1302 2012-04-09 20:14:51 sacarlson has joined
1303 2012-04-09 20:15:09 <DrHaribo> Could it be related to berkeley DB locks?
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1309 2012-04-09 20:22:15 <sipa> DrHaribo: unlikely
1310 2012-04-09 20:22:56 <sipa> if (nBytes >= MAX_BLOCK_SIZE_GEN/5)
1311 2012-04-09 20:22:56 <sipa> return false;
1312 2012-04-09 20:23:13 <gmaxwell> Thats not the only false path, but it's the most likely one.
1313 2012-04-09 20:23:21 <sipa> that means >100KB
1314 2012-04-09 20:23:54 <DrHaribo> Yeah, this is like 1700 inputs. So that's probably the limit I'm hitting. :P
1315 2012-04-09 20:24:05 <etotheipi_> holy moly
1316 2012-04-09 20:24:07 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1317 2012-04-09 20:24:15 <gmaxwell> DrHaribo: if you send me half that coin it will solve your problems.
1318 2012-04-09 20:24:44 <etotheipi_> sounds like you're going to have to bloat the chain with multiple tx in order to aggregate them
1319 2012-04-09 20:26:12 <etotheipi_> I bet that tx is about 250 kB
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1321 2012-04-09 20:27:04 BTC_Bull is now known as copumpkin
1322 2012-04-09 20:28:07 <DrHaribo> gmaxwell: Sure, do you have a testnet address? :D
1323 2012-04-09 20:29:39 <etotheipi_> send it in 5-8 tx and leave a nice tip for the miners :)
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1329 2012-04-09 20:35:03 <etotheipi_> that's pretty trippy: since the bitcoin-qt QR-display changes in real time, just hold down any key in the label or message field and watch it grow
1330 2012-04-09 20:35:18 <etotheipi_> it's actually slightly educational to see what changes as you add arbitrary data
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1333 2012-04-09 20:36:15 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #274: STILL FAILING in 1 min 19 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/274/
1334 2012-04-09 20:36:15 <BlueMattBot> * pieter.wuille: Use scoped locks instead of CRITICAL_BLOCK
1335 2012-04-09 20:36:16 <BlueMattBot> * pieter.wuille: Support for parametrized locks in deadlock detector
1336 2012-04-09 20:36:16 <BlueMattBot> * pieter.wuille: Do not report spurious deadlocks caused by TRY_LOCK
1337 2012-04-09 20:36:27 ginwas has joined
1338 2012-04-09 20:36:39 <etotheipi_> what does bitcoin-qt use for its address book? Just all addresses in the wallet (owned by the user) and all addresses ever sent to?
1339 2012-04-09 20:36:54 <etotheipi_> I assume *not* addresses received-from
1340 2012-04-09 20:36:58 <ginwas> *charvib* video of coingenuity running away: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d46dFmAmnuc more: http://pastebin.com/594ibvAX gmaxwell is Gregory F. Maxwell, 13055 Laurel Tree Ln #403, Herndon, VA 20171, 386-864-1817, gmaxwell@gmail.com
1341 2012-04-09 20:36:59 <ginwas> *charvib* video of coingenuity running away: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d46dFmAmnuc more: http://pastebin.com/594ibvAX gmaxwell is Gregory F. Maxwell, 13055 Laurel Tree Ln #403, Herndon, VA 20171, 386-864-1817, gmaxwell@gmail.com
1342 2012-04-09 20:36:59 <ginwas> i heard some people were dissing silkroad. there are millions of people throughout the world who have legal permits to buy and sell narcotics like marijuana, including 15 states in the US. silkroad isn't illegal. and discussing silkroad is hardly illegal. coingenuity is a wannabe narc lol.
1343 2012-04-09 20:37:00 ginwas has left ()
1344 2012-04-09 20:37:42 <etotheipi_> wtf
1345 2012-04-09 20:38:47 <BlueMatt> I love how people always think they are so smart when they can look up someone's address
1346 2012-04-09 20:38:54 <BlueMatt> its not hard, its actually really damn easy...
1347 2012-04-09 20:39:28 <BlueMatt> oh, hey now master doesnt even build, not just test suite fails...
1348 2012-04-09 20:39:32 molecular has joined
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1351 2012-04-09 20:40:12 <etotheipi_> although it does freak me out a bit when I find out someone who was otherwise mostly anonymous on the interwebs actually lives right near me...
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1356 2012-04-09 20:40:45 <sipa> BlueMatt: working on it (though the unit test thing is fixed)
1357 2012-04-09 20:40:54 Radium has joined
1358 2012-04-09 20:41:08 <sipa> i'm rewriting all that c-style path fiddling stuff using boost::filesystem::path
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1370 2012-04-09 20:46:41 <midnightmagic> ;;seen Artforzz
1371 2012-04-09 20:46:41 <gribble> I have not seen Artforzz.
1372 2012-04-09 20:46:44 <midnightmagic> ;;seen Artforz
1373 2012-04-09 20:46:44 <gribble> Artforz was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 42 weeks, 5 days, 22 hours, 29 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <ArtForz> eternal beta. hah, satoshi is secretly a google employee!
1374 2012-04-09 20:46:56 Radium has joined
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1376 2012-04-09 20:47:02 <BlueMatt> ;;seen ArtForzZz
1377 2012-04-09 20:47:02 <gribble> ArtForzZz was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 43 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 30 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <ArtForzZz> only exception is the genesis block iirc
1378 2012-04-09 20:47:12 <BlueMatt> :(
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1387 2012-04-09 20:49:06 <sipa> wait, we have GetDataDir(), which does the following: check a cached value, if set, return it; if not set, return default
1388 2012-04-09 20:49:41 merde has joined
1389 2012-04-09 20:49:42 <sipa> and then *another*, unrelated function ReadConfigFile which checks -datadir, and if set, overwrtites the cached value to be returne by GetDataDir()
1390 2012-04-09 20:49:45 * sipa cries
1391 2012-04-09 20:50:30 <luke-jr> >_<
1392 2012-04-09 20:50:49 <gmaxwell> It's like biology.
1393 2012-04-09 20:50:50 * sipa tries to fix this, and hope nothing breaks
1394 2012-04-09 20:51:15 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1395 2012-04-09 20:52:04 <luke-jr> I wonder if this is why I use HOME=⦠./bitcoind instead of -datadir
1396 2012-04-09 20:54:35 <etotheipi_> anyone have any plans to use/care-about C++0x?
1397 2012-04-09 20:55:28 <etotheipi_> I'm intrigued by it... but I've only known the "regular" C++ my whole life, I have no idea if the new standard could ever get any adoption...
1398 2012-04-09 20:55:45 <sipa> well, g++ implements most of it already anyway, afaik
1399 2012-04-09 20:56:02 <etotheipi_> sipa: interesting, I didn't know that
1400 2012-04-09 20:56:19 <sipa> i like the idea about the move-references, but i don't know too many details
1401 2012-04-09 20:56:44 <etotheipi_> I'm a big fan lambda functions and auto variables
1402 2012-04-09 20:57:02 <etotheipi_> I don't like writing functors ...
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1409 2012-04-09 20:59:21 <etotheipi_> oh, initializer lists are nice...
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1419 2012-04-09 21:00:58 <Diapolo> sipa: I guess we should simply rework GetDataDir() which removes the need for make_preferred() in every place which uses GetDataDir().
1420 2012-04-09 21:01:35 bitcoinbulletin has joined
1421 2012-04-09 21:02:02 <sipa> Diapolo: already on it
1422 2012-04-09 21:03:02 <Diapolo> I had a modified version ready but did not include it in the util updates yet ^^.
1423 2012-04-09 21:05:22 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1425 2012-04-09 21:11:08 <Diapolo> sipa: added a commit to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1066 that includes my idea for GetDataDir() ;) we can chose the nicest one ^^.
1426 2012-04-09 21:15:45 <luke-jr> how are strlcpy/strlcat different from C99 strncpy/strncat? O.o
1427 2012-04-09 21:16:46 <luke-jr> Is this s/pszBuffer/staticBuffer/ an intentional part of some coding standard change, or a bug? :P
1428 2012-04-09 21:17:35 <etotheipi_> I don't see anything about strlcpy
1429 2012-04-09 21:17:47 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: it's in bitcoind src tree
1430 2012-04-09 21:18:33 <etotheipi_> "The strlcpy() and strlcat() functions copy and concatenate strings
1431 2012-04-09 21:18:33 <etotheipi_> respectively. They are designed to be safer, more consistent, and less error prone replacements for strncpy(3) and strncat(3)"
1432 2012-04-09 21:18:57 <Diapolo> seems they are a BSD invention
1433 2012-04-09 21:19:00 <luke-jr> I don't see the problem with strncpy/strncat
1434 2012-04-09 21:19:19 <etotheipi_> "Unlike those
1435 2012-04-09 21:19:20 <etotheipi_> functions, strlcpy() and strlcat() take the full size of the buffer (not
1436 2012-04-09 21:19:20 <etotheipi_> just the length) and guarantee to NUL-terminate the result (as long as
1437 2012-04-09 21:19:20 <etotheipi_> size is larger than 0 or, in the case of strlcat(), as long as there is
1438 2012-04-09 21:19:20 <etotheipi_> at least one byte free in dst)"
1439 2012-04-09 21:20:22 * luke-jr doesn't see how that's any safer
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1443 2012-04-09 21:24:20 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: dooglus opened issue 1071 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1071>
1444 2012-04-09 21:24:47 <sipa> luke-jr: if the output buffer has size 100 in the case of strncpy, and the input is 100 bytes, the result will not have a terminating 0x00
1445 2012-04-09 21:25:28 <luke-jr> i c
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1449 2012-04-09 21:32:21 SomeoneWeirdzzzz is now known as SomeoneWeird
1450 2012-04-09 21:34:20 <gmaxwell> holy crap the white on yellow is .. 0_o
1451 2012-04-09 21:34:48 <sipa> ?
1452 2012-04-09 21:38:00 <sipa> boost::interprocess::file_lock takes a char* argument, but not a boost::filesystem::path one... internal_compatibility++
1453 2012-04-09 21:38:47 <Diapolo> lol
1454 2012-04-09 21:42:36 <luke-jr> does Qt have an "invert the background colour" colour?
1455 2012-04-09 21:45:53 * etotheipi_ waits patiently to figure out how they solve the Qt color/contrast issues
1456 2012-04-09 21:46:29 <sipa> Diapolo: i'm turning all pathnames everywhere into boost::filesystem::path... so much cleaner than all that strcpy stuff
1457 2012-04-09 21:46:52 <luke-jr> lol
1458 2012-04-09 21:46:56 forsetifox has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1459 2012-04-09 21:48:14 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
1460 2012-04-09 21:49:12 <Diapolo> good idea, the bad is if 2 people work on the same parts ^^
1461 2012-04-09 21:50:06 <sipa> at least i informed you ;)
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1463 2012-04-09 21:56:44 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1464 2012-04-09 21:57:05 <sipa> do we support upgrading from 0.1.5?
1465 2012-04-09 21:57:16 <sipa> if (nFileVersion <= 105
1466 2012-04-09 21:57:45 <luke-jr> worst case scenario, someone stops at 0.4.5 on the way up
1467 2012-04-09 21:58:16 <luke-jr> should we be doing progressbar->setTextVisible(false)?
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1469 2012-04-09 22:00:17 <sipa> heh?
1470 2012-04-09 22:00:20 <luke-jr> sipa: can we add a rule to use absolute namespaces everywhere, in new code? :P
1471 2012-04-09 22:00:27 Radium has joined
1472 2012-04-09 22:00:33 <sipa> if (!fDebug && !pszSetDataDir[0])
1473 2012-04-09 22:00:39 <sipa> ShrinkDebugFile();
1474 2012-04-09 22:01:03 <sipa> anyone aware of a strange "if datadir is set manually, do not shrink log file" policy?
1475 2012-04-09 22:01:12 <sipa> luke-jr: why?
1476 2012-04-09 22:01:24 <luke-jr> sipa: cuz it makes resolving symbols nicer?
1477 2012-04-09 22:01:46 <sipa> ?
1478 2012-04-09 22:02:11 <Diapolo> I updated my util pull request and will go to bed now ... cu.
1479 2012-04-09 22:02:15 Diapolo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1480 2012-04-09 22:03:05 paulo_ has quit ()
1481 2012-04-09 22:05:26 <luke-jr> sipa: std::string is easier to work with than string
1482 2012-04-09 22:05:44 forsetifox has joined
1483 2012-04-09 22:06:07 <sipa> what is easier about it?
1484 2012-04-09 22:06:49 <luke-jr> it's less ambiguous
1485 2012-04-09 22:06:50 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 1072 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1072>
1486 2012-04-09 22:06:58 <luke-jr> why does the progress bar say "-24933 blocks remaining"?
1487 2012-04-09 22:07:09 <sipa> it's not a -, it's a ~
1488 2012-04-09 22:07:41 <gmaxwell> Might be better to use the right symbol? â
1489 2012-04-09 22:09:09 <gmaxwell> I guess ~ is right too.
1490 2012-04-09 22:09:19 <sipa> or ± ?
1491 2012-04-09 22:12:54 <sipa> ;;calc 1 / (1 - [bc,prob [calc [bc,nethash]*1000000] 1h])
1492 2012-04-09 22:12:55 <gribble> 387.296669249
1493 2012-04-09 22:13:13 <sipa> ;;calcd
1494 2012-04-09 22:13:13 <gribble> Error: "calcd" is not a valid command.
1495 2012-04-09 22:13:17 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd
1496 2012-04-09 22:13:17 <gribble> (bc,calcd <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
1497 2012-04-09 22:13:46 <sipa> ;;time elapsed [calc (600 / (1 - [bc,prob [calc [bc,nethash]*1000000] 1h]))]
1498 2012-04-09 22:13:47 <gribble> 2 days, 16 hours, 32 minutes, and 58 seconds
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1500 2012-04-09 22:16:33 <luke-jr> sipa: but it's a -
1501 2012-04-09 22:16:45 <luke-jr> and why is it supposed to be ~? it's not approximateâ¦
1502 2012-04-09 22:17:04 <sipa> it is; the total number of blocks is not known
1503 2012-04-09 22:17:15 <sipa> (and it is a ~ here)
1504 2012-04-09 22:18:29 <luke-jr> why isn't it known? :p
1505 2012-04-09 22:18:54 <sipa> how would you know it?
1506 2012-04-09 22:19:01 <sipa> before having the entire chain
1507 2012-04-09 22:20:29 <luke-jr> afaik we get the total from our peers
1508 2012-04-09 22:20:36 <sipa> and you trust them?
1509 2012-04-09 22:20:44 <sipa> and you assume they are up to date?
1510 2012-04-09 22:20:45 <luke-jr> for something like this, sure
1511 2012-04-09 22:20:51 <luke-jr> there's 8 peers after all
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1513 2012-04-09 22:21:06 <sipa> initially there are 0, and the guess is based on the last checkpoint
1514 2012-04-09 22:21:14 <luke-jr> o.o
1515 2012-04-09 22:21:14 <sipa> which is most definitely not exact
1516 2012-04-09 22:21:37 <sipa> *and *then* the guess is based on the last checkpoint
1517 2012-04-09 22:22:43 <luke-jr> IMO, it was correct the first time :p
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1561 2012-04-09 23:49:27 <sipa> ;;time elapsed [calc ([bc,nethash] / ([bc,diff]*2**48/65535) / (1 - [bc,prob [calc [bc,nethash]*1000000] 1h]))]
1562 2012-04-09 23:49:28 <gribble> 0 seconds
1563 2012-04-09 23:49:49 <sipa> ;;time elapsed [calc ([bc,nethash] * 1000000000 / ([bc,diff] * 2**48 / 65535) / (1 - [bc,prob [calc [bc,nethash]*1000000] 1h]))]
1564 2012-04-09 23:49:50 <gribble> Error: '0.626317325927' is not a valid integer.
1565 2012-04-09 23:50:16 <sipa> ;;calc [bc,nethash] * 1000000000 / ([bc,diff] * 2**48 / 65535)
1566 2012-04-09 23:50:17 <gribble> 0.00164971983649
1567 2012-04-09 23:51:18 <sipa> ;;time elapsed [calc (([bc,diff] * 2**48 / 65535) / ([bc,nethash] * 1000000000) / (1 - [bc,prob [calc [bc,nethash]*1000000] 1h]))]
1568 2012-04-09 23:51:19 <gribble> 2 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes, and 30 seconds
1569 2012-04-09 23:51:46 <sipa> there we go!
1570 2012-04-09 23:52:10 phma has joined
1571 2012-04-09 23:52:40 <sipa> ;;time elapsed [calc (([bc,diff] * 2**48 / 65535) / ([bc,nethash] * 1000000000) / (1 - [bc,prob [calc [bc,nethash]*1000000] [bc,tslb]]))]
1572 2012-04-09 23:52:42 <gribble> Error: 'Time since last block: 7 minutes and 3 seconds' is not a valid argument.
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