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  2 2012-04-16 00:03:41 <luke-jr> fwiw, a 0.5.3 node recently found a blo\ck
  3 2012-04-16 00:03:46 <luke-jr> so I guess the poison txn expired out
  4 2012-04-16 00:04:00 <luke-jr> http://blockchain.info/block-index/208079/000000000000029027c21fe88d953ac216504a18c8e08061392fca0a58943c71 <-- 0.3.21
  5 2012-04-16 00:04:59 <gmaxwell> How do you know it's 0.3.21?
  6 2012-04-16 00:05:07 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: sipa's node list
  7 2012-04-16 00:05:29 <gmaxwell> Thats just the relaying node.. Don't be a blockchain.info fool. :)
  8 2012-04-16 00:05:41 <gmaxwell> in fact, that block has /P2SH/ in the coinbase.
  9 2012-04-16 00:05:47 <luke-jr> hmm, vinced?
 10 2012-04-16 00:06:48 <gmaxwell> looks like that poison tx was last mined on the 14th.
 11 2012-04-16 00:08:07 <luke-jr> can we resend it? :p
 12 2012-04-16 00:08:29 <luke-jr> or did the input it uses get spent?
 13 2012-04-16 00:08:48 <gmaxwell> It can't be spent.
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 16 2012-04-16 00:19:28 <jgarzik> sipa: pretty much everything requires PROTOCOL_VERSION or something else bitcoin-specific
 17 2012-04-16 00:19:44 <jgarzik> sipa: addrman req serialize req PROTOCOL_VERSION, for example
 18 2012-04-16 00:22:05 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, it's quite impossible to remove all such dependencies
 19 2012-04-16 00:22:25 <sipa> (though for the particular example you give... you could do without addrman depending on serialize)
 20 2012-04-16 00:22:48 <sipa> but preferably not of course
 21 2012-04-16 00:24:51 <sipa> actually... the optimal solution would be making serialize not depend on protocol versions (all places where network serialization is performed know about the protocol being used anyway)
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 23 2012-04-16 00:30:20 <jgarzik> yep
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 42 2012-04-16 02:03:44 <[Tycho]> Last one was 5 hours ago. http://blockchain.info/tx-index/3618498/4005d6bea3a93fb72f006d23e2685b85069d270cb57d15f0c057ef2d5e3f78d2
 43 2012-04-16 02:04:40 <[Tycho]> Hm, no.
 44 2012-04-16 02:05:25 <copumpkin> did the empty block miner disappear/stop mining empty blocks?
 45 2012-04-16 02:05:33 <copumpkin> I haven't heard anyone talking about him for a while
 46 2012-04-16 02:05:35 <[Tycho]> Long time ago.
 47 2012-04-16 02:05:46 <copumpkin> cool, thanks
 48 2012-04-16 02:06:16 <[Tycho]> May be MM expected this would save him from BIP16.
 49 2012-04-16 02:06:46 <luke-jr> lol
 50 2012-04-16 02:06:55 <luke-jr> probably
 51 2012-04-16 02:07:21 <[Tycho]> And when it didn't, he switched back to normal.
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 58 2012-04-16 03:12:47 <phantomcircuit> hmm
 59 2012-04-16 03:12:49 <phantomcircuit> just a thought
 60 2012-04-16 03:12:57 <phantomcircuit> some of the fee rules actually encourage spam
 61 2012-04-16 03:13:14 <phantomcircuit> a single transaction with a lot of inputs will go over the size threshold
 62 2012-04-16 03:13:33 <phantomcircuit> so you can avoid the fees by sending them as a few transactions which are below the threshold
 63 2012-04-16 03:13:39 <phantomcircuit> this is however worse not better
 64 2012-04-16 03:13:51 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ^ ping
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 68 2012-04-16 03:38:01 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: not my fee rules
 69 2012-04-16 03:38:22 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, :)
 70 2012-04-16 03:43:05 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: "size threshold", no such beast exists.
 71 2012-04-16 03:43:19 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the total size of the transaction in bytes
 72 2012-04-16 03:43:33 <phantomcircuit> there is a certain size under which there is no fee iirc
 73 2012-04-16 03:43:39 <gmaxwell> Thats not a part of the fee rules.  Nope.
 74 2012-04-16 03:44:56 <gmaxwell> The allowed to be free calculation is sum(input_value*confirms)/data_size > threshold && min(outputs)>0.01
 75 2012-04-16 03:46:20 <gmaxwell> (now, the limits on block inclusion are a little different, but those are dynamic and only come into effect as blocks get closer to the free limit— and don't change the fees the software applies)
 76 2012-04-16 03:48:21 <gmaxwell> er, should have said min(outputs)>=0.01 :)
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 88 2012-04-16 05:21:45 <wumpus> splatster: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1032
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 90 2012-04-16 05:22:18 <wumpus> splatster: the only problem is that the html is in a translation message, so we can't merge that without breaking 'wallet' in every translation
 91 2012-04-16 05:23:11 <splatster> It realy isn't -that- important.
 92 2012-04-16 05:23:11 <wumpus> for some obscure message that wouldn't be a problem, but heh...
 93 2012-04-16 05:23:15 <splatster> really*
 94 2012-04-16 05:23:31 <wumpus> I'll merge it after 0.6.1 is released to give translators some time
 95 2012-04-16 05:24:12 <splatster> cool
 96 2012-04-16 05:28:11 <wumpus> luke-jr: yes you got that the wrong way around, I *fixed* the casts
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166 2012-04-16 11:17:36 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: andrasfuchs opened issue 1110 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1110>
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173 2012-04-16 11:38:00 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: andrasfuchs opened issue 1111 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1111>
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177 2012-04-16 11:57:28 <t7> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1111 :S
178 2012-04-16 11:59:36 capiscuas has joined
179 2012-04-16 12:04:41 <t7> can i show issues without a pull peq?
180 2012-04-16 12:04:58 skeledrew has joined
181 2012-04-16 12:05:03 <sipa> ?
182 2012-04-16 12:05:12 random2 has joined
183 2012-04-16 12:05:20 <t7> request*
184 2012-04-16 12:05:25 <sipa> yes
185 2012-04-16 12:05:28 <sipa> go to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
186 2012-04-16 12:05:34 <sipa> click "new issue"
187 2012-04-16 12:05:50 <t7> i dont need to make one...
188 2012-04-16 12:08:28 <t7> i wanna fix a bug but you guys are too quick
189 2012-04-16 12:09:43 Joric has joined
190 2012-04-16 12:10:45 <sipa> which is?
191 2012-04-16 12:10:50 <t7> any
192 2012-04-16 12:10:59 <t7> wanna contribute
193 2012-04-16 12:11:11 <t7> give something back and all that
194 2012-04-16 12:11:12 <sipa> :)
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199 2012-04-16 12:19:32 <Cryo> help others :)
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218 2012-04-16 13:03:31 <Joric> damn electrum uses 100000 rounds for generation, too slow for javascript :)
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221 2012-04-16 13:03:59 <Joric> no matter what it's always 100000 rounds
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223 2012-04-16 13:04:26 <gmaxwell> 100,000 is miserably low.
224 2012-04-16 13:05:14 <gmaxwell> (well, it's fine for electrum— because the keys are actually random)
225 2012-04-16 13:05:52 <Joric> takes ~20 seconds in chrome
226 2012-04-16 13:06:08 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 1112 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1112>
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228 2012-04-16 13:07:03 <gmaxwell> Joric: yes, but this is just one one reason that you cannot make a secure password based crypto scheme in JS.
229 2012-04-16 13:07:35 <gmaxwell> ...an attacker on a GPU gets a 10,000x+ speedup over an honest user.
230 2012-04-16 13:07:51 <gmaxwell> actually, with those numbers, more like 100,000x.
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243 2012-04-16 13:43:21 <Joric_> lol @ electrum : https://gitorious.org/electrum/electrum/blobs/master/client/electrum line 129 - seed.decode('hex') the result is not used anywhere
244 2012-04-16 13:43:31 <Joric_> seed remains as text
245 2012-04-16 13:43:55 <Joric_> i just checked, it uses text seed, idk maybe it's planned
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248 2012-04-16 13:44:39 <gmaxwell> hah
249 2012-04-16 13:44:48 <gmaxwell> I don't think that was intended.
250 2012-04-16 13:44:52 <user__> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17680904
251 2012-04-16 13:46:56 <Joric> mnemonic.mn_decode returns hex-encoded string too
252 2012-04-16 13:47:14 <Joric> either way, it's a feature now
253 2012-04-16 13:47:51 <Joric> it looks rather strange idk why it was done
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255 2012-04-16 13:48:46 <ThomasV> Joric: perhaps to test if the provided seed is a hex string?
256 2012-04-16 13:49:36 <ThomasV> Joric: you'll get better chances to get your questions noticed if you join #electrum
257 2012-04-16 13:50:22 <Joric> ThomasV, i tried 123456 it goes right to the stretch_key as '123456'
258 2012-04-16 13:50:57 <Joric> it checks for a hex string but it doesn't decode
259 2012-04-16 13:51:50 <ThomasV> oh, you mean that
260 2012-04-16 13:51:57 <Joric> yes
261 2012-04-16 13:52:06 <ThomasV> it does not have to
262 2012-04-16 13:54:07 <ThomasV> it does not really matter how the seed is encoded
263 2012-04-16 13:54:27 <Joric> i don't know it looks rather funny, why check for hex without decoding
264 2012-04-16 13:54:43 <sipa> it doesn't really matter, indeed
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266 2012-04-16 13:58:35 <Joric> did anyone see limerick or haiku encoding? might be more memorizable than rfc1751 )
267 2012-04-16 13:58:48 <sipa> i made a joke about those
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269 2012-04-16 13:59:39 <ThomasV> Joric: I check for hex in order to know if the user provided a mnemonic or not, that's all
270 2012-04-16 14:04:07 <t7> do any of you guys declare bitcoin income ?
271 2012-04-16 14:04:39 <ThomasV> t7: this channel is about software development
272 2012-04-16 14:05:10 <sipa> and software developers obviously don't have an income!
273 2012-04-16 14:05:19 <luke-jr> t7: maybe if I did taxes :p
274 2012-04-16 14:05:37 <t7> maybe i asked because i was brainstorming a feature?
275 2012-04-16 14:05:56 Graet has joined
276 2012-04-16 14:06:05 <t7> I didnt mean to put that question mark
277 2012-04-16 14:06:06 <sipa> t7: which is?
278 2012-04-16 14:06:40 <luke-jr> sipa: yearly reports?
279 2012-04-16 14:07:05 <sipa> luke-jr: i just wondered which feature he would be brainstorming about
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283 2012-04-16 14:16:04 <UukGoblin> hrm, merged mining only uses single sha256 when merkle-merging aux chains
284 2012-04-16 14:16:14 <UukGoblin> but I guess it's not bitcoin's problem ;-]
285 2012-04-16 14:16:26 <UukGoblin> likely not a problem at all, too
286 2012-04-16 14:16:50 <UukGoblin> is sha256(sha256(x)) really any more secure than just sha256(x)?
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288 2012-04-16 14:18:05 <Joric> maybe more, maybe less
289 2012-04-16 14:18:51 <sipa> double-sha256 is actually only a 255-bit hash function anymore :)
290 2012-04-16 14:19:04 <sipa> because of extra collisions generated by the second hash function
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292 2012-04-16 14:20:10 <luke-jr> double-sha256 is stronger against some theoretical attacks, and weaker against others :P
293 2012-04-16 14:20:59 <copumpkin> someone needs to find a fixed point of sha256
294 2012-04-16 14:21:05 <copumpkin> that'd be fun
295 2012-04-16 14:22:15 <UukGoblin> hm, fun :-)
296 2012-04-16 14:22:18 <copumpkin> apparently there's about a 63% chance of there being one!
297 2012-04-16 14:22:19 <Joric> or of md5
298 2012-04-16 14:22:48 <copumpkin> ;;calc 0.63 * 2^256
299 2012-04-16 14:22:49 <gribble> Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
300 2012-04-16 14:23:22 <UukGoblin> well, according to Dan Boneh's lectures, if H(x) is a secure hash function, then H(H(x)) is also a secure hash function
301 2012-04-16 14:23:30 <sipa> ;;calc 0.63 * 2**256
302 2012-04-16 14:23:30 <gribble> 72949016219509203631069894718350270120987959888525588151963235935478978969600
303 2012-04-16 14:23:43 <UukGoblin> actually... s/secure/collision-resistant/
304 2012-04-16 14:23:58 <copumpkin> sipa: I'll set my mining rig to work to find it :D
305 2012-04-16 14:24:02 <copumpkin> >_>
306 2012-04-16 14:24:05 <sipa> UukGoblin: it is
307 2012-04-16 14:24:05 <copumpkin> <_<
308 2012-04-16 14:24:20 <sipa> but "secure" has a rather informal definition, if you remember
309 2012-04-16 14:24:27 <UukGoblin> yeah
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311 2012-04-16 14:24:53 <UukGoblin> well, he formalized it quite well
312 2012-04-16 14:24:55 <sipa> if you'd do something like H^(2^1000)(x), it wouldn't be secure anymore
313 2012-04-16 14:25:03 <UukGoblin> but it's not necessarily always 'common sense' secure ;-)
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315 2012-04-16 14:25:23 <UukGoblin> hm
316 2012-04-16 14:25:26 imsaguy2 has joined
317 2012-04-16 14:25:36 <UukGoblin> now that's interesting ;-)
318 2012-04-16 14:25:37 <copumpkin> sipa: omg pbkdf2-like schemes are not secure!
319 2012-04-16 14:25:38 <copumpkin> oh wait
320 2012-04-16 14:26:00 <copumpkin> :)
321 2012-04-16 14:26:13 <copumpkin> but is mtgox's famous repeated sha512 scheme secure? ;)
322 2012-04-16 14:26:38 abracadab has joined
323 2012-04-16 14:26:39 Guest92760 has quit (Changing host)
324 2012-04-16 14:26:39 Guest92760 has joined
325 2012-04-16 14:26:40 <sipa> UukGoblin: i didn t do the math for that, just gut feeling that after a number of iterations comparable to the size of the keyspace, it becomes insecure
326 2012-04-16 14:26:45 Guest92760 is now known as jgarzik_
327 2012-04-16 14:26:46 <UukGoblin> copumpkin, only as long as their admin doesn't type the root password in some cheap internet cafe
328 2012-04-16 14:27:04 <copumpkin> yeah, as you do more of them, you cover more and more of the space, which makes it a lot more likely to hit the fixed point
329 2012-04-16 14:27:07 <copumpkin> (if one exists)
330 2012-04-16 14:27:40 drizztbsd has joined
331 2012-04-16 14:29:12 <UukGoblin> hmm, I wonder if with all that bitcoin mining will we be able to find some weaknesses in sha :-)
332 2012-04-16 14:31:44 <copumpkin> even if we did (which I doubt), would anyone notice?
333 2012-04-16 14:32:06 <UukGoblin> copumpkin, well, if we found 2 transactions or 2 blocks with the same hash, then sure
334 2012-04-16 14:32:37 <UukGoblin> but well, yeah, most of the power is lost because most nonces aren't advertised
335 2012-04-16 14:32:44 <copumpkin> yeah
336 2012-04-16 14:33:05 <copumpkin> a minute percentage of all the hashing power is retained
337 2012-04-16 14:33:15 <copumpkin> or its output, I should say
338 2012-04-16 14:33:21 <UukGoblin> mhm
339 2012-04-16 14:34:47 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: PBKDF2 isn't just H^foo().
340 2012-04-16 14:34:53 <copumpkin> I know :)
341 2012-04-16 14:35:44 <copumpkin> but schemes that attempt to replicate the idea (misunderstanding it) by just iterated hashing might be
342 2012-04-16 14:35:53 <jgarzik_> sipa: ACK on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1081 ?
343 2012-04-16 14:36:05 * jgarzik_ looks around for gavinanderson
344 2012-04-16 14:36:22 <sipa> jgarzik_: still don't know his real name? :)
345 2012-04-16 14:36:26 <copumpkin> lol
346 2012-04-16 14:36:37 <copumpkin> ;;seen gavinandresen
347 2012-04-16 14:36:37 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 days, 20 hours, 6 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> hmm?  just a simple drop-from-memory-pool-after-24-hours should be good enough, right?  If you're rebroadcasting, then it either gets ignored (if it is the node's memory pool) or relayed.  Stop rebroadcasting and 24 hours later the transaction should be clear from all nodes that (1 more message)
348 2012-04-16 14:36:56 <jgarzik_> I never get those names right :)
349 2012-04-16 14:37:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: actually, it is, but H is x -> HMAC-SHA1(K, x)
350 2012-04-16 14:37:54 <copumpkin> sipa: yeah, which confounds it
351 2012-04-16 14:39:13 <UukGoblin> SHA1? that... has issues, apparently
352 2012-04-16 14:39:30 <sipa> UukGoblin: not when used in HMAC
353 2012-04-16 14:39:42 <UukGoblin> ah
354 2012-04-16 14:39:54 <sipa> UukGoblin: Dan even said that some weeks ago in his courses, iirc
355 2012-04-16 14:40:21 <UukGoblin> hmm, don't recall him talking about SHA1 weaknesses at all...
356 2012-04-16 14:40:37 <UukGoblin> I mean, I do recall HMACs built from SHA
357 2012-04-16 14:41:43 <banshee12> im just wondering
358 2012-04-16 14:42:01 <banshee12> has anyone done any statistical analysis on the kind of hashes that typical result in having leading 0s in to look for patterns?
359 2012-04-16 14:42:06 <copumpkin> HMAC is a higher-order function :D
360 2012-04-16 14:42:06 <UukGoblin> well, originally, I meant that NIST said stuff having a way to "break" SHA-1, so SHA-2 should be used instead
361 2012-04-16 14:42:49 <UukGoblin> banshee12, that'd be interesting to see results of, yeah
362 2012-04-16 14:45:01 <jgarzik_> bah
363 2012-04-16 14:45:11 <jgarzik_> sure is expensive to go BTC->credit card: http://bitcoin-debit.com/fees.php
364 2012-04-16 14:45:24 <jgarzik_> (well, "a card with a credit card network number", I mean)
365 2012-04-16 14:46:20 <UukGoblin> whoah, neat
366 2012-04-16 14:46:49 <UukGoblin> will it get accepted though?
367 2012-04-16 14:47:18 <UukGoblin> "where MasterCard is accepted" :-O
368 2012-04-16 14:49:34 <UukGoblin> jgarzik_, note that all charges except loading have fixed fees
369 2012-04-16 14:49:45 <UukGoblin> well, mtgox + 4% is quite high I guess
370 2012-04-16 14:50:03 <jgarzik_> UukGoblin: all the fees are high.  each purchase is US$3
371 2012-04-16 14:50:29 <jgarzik_> UukGoblin: I was looking for a generic card, but $3 per purchase is quite high, if I am doing a lot of small purchases (which I am)
372 2012-04-16 14:50:54 <UukGoblin> yes, it's only good for larger purchases
373 2012-04-16 14:50:57 <jgarzik_> a wal-mart VISA debit card, purchased with cash, has no such per-purchase charges
374 2012-04-16 14:51:21 <UukGoblin> mhm
375 2012-04-16 14:51:28 <sipa> debit cards here don't have per-purchase costs either
376 2012-04-16 14:51:40 <UukGoblin> well yeah, they normally don't.
377 2012-04-16 14:51:55 <sipa> actually, they don't have any costs at all here
378 2012-04-16 14:51:59 <banshee12> that card is outrageous
379 2012-04-16 14:52:01 <banshee12> stay clear lol
380 2012-04-16 14:52:05 <banshee12> 3 USD per purchase?
381 2012-04-16 14:52:13 <jgarzik_> I understand charging a fee when you load BTC->USD.  That's fine and expected.
382 2012-04-16 14:52:42 <UukGoblin> well, I guess if you can purchase a credit card for cash, then this one sucks
383 2012-04-16 14:52:52 <UukGoblin> I'm not sure where I could do that in UK though
384 2012-04-16 14:52:55 <jgarzik_> sipa: well... visible costs :)  card fees continue to apply at each purchase, on the merchant's side.  that is just hidden inside each price.
385 2012-04-16 14:53:06 <jgarzik_> all cards incur a per-purchase charge
386 2012-04-16 14:53:32 <banshee12> whats wrong with bitcoindebit.net?
387 2012-04-16 14:53:34 <sipa> jgarzik_: of course, and the card is included in the bank account typically, but the bank account has costs as well
388 2012-04-16 14:53:42 <jgarzik_> bitcoin-debit.com, OTOH, incurs _two_ per-purchase charges.  The usual merchant one, and a new one apparently
389 2012-04-16 14:55:03 <jgarzik_> banshee12: zero info on fees or management
390 2012-04-16 14:56:06 Zarutian has joined
391 2012-04-16 14:59:31 <banshee12> it cant be as bad as the other one
392 2012-04-16 15:01:39 <jgarzik_> banshee12: with zero info, who knows
393 2012-04-16 15:03:19 topace has quit (Changing host)
394 2012-04-16 15:03:19 topace has joined
395 2012-04-16 15:04:01 <banshee12> there seems to be a bit of market gap for people to spend their btcs easily and convieniently?
396 2012-04-16 15:04:16 <banshee12> isnt it possible to get reloadable visa prepaid cards with no spending feeS?
397 2012-04-16 15:07:20 danbri_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
398 2012-04-16 15:07:31 danbri has joined
399 2012-04-16 15:10:11 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
400 2012-04-16 15:10:56 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
401 2012-04-16 15:13:45 Xunie has joined
402 2012-04-16 15:15:24 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
403 2012-04-16 15:22:32 att has joined
404 2012-04-16 15:28:38 <jgarzik_> banshee12: one would hope so.  maybe aurumexchange...
405 2012-04-16 15:32:04 fimpfimp has joined
406 2012-04-16 15:34:51 gavinandresen has joined
407 2012-04-16 15:41:55 copumpkin is now known as wladimir
408 2012-04-16 15:42:09 wladimir is now known as copumpkin
409 2012-04-16 15:45:51 <banshee12> meh jgarzik_
410 2012-04-16 15:45:56 <banshee12> i bought some bitcoin hoping i could actually use them
411 2012-04-16 15:46:06 <banshee12> but even teh act of ordering a pizza is like a monumental challenge lol
412 2012-04-16 15:46:27 <luke-jr> it is? O.o
413 2012-04-16 15:46:46 <banshee12> yeh
414 2012-04-16 15:46:51 <banshee12> and i have a complaint about the price
415 2012-04-16 15:46:59 <banshee12> for the entire time ive looked at bitcoin there has been volatility
416 2012-04-16 15:47:04 <banshee12> the minute i buy some... theres none
417 2012-04-16 15:47:05 <banshee12> :P
418 2012-04-16 15:47:05 <banshee12> grr
419 2012-04-16 15:47:11 <luke-jr> http://bitpizza.net
420 2012-04-16 15:47:36 <banshee12> not everyone is from teh usa luke-jr
421 2012-04-16 15:48:15 <Diablo-D3> newegg canada is in there too
422 2012-04-16 15:48:59 <Diablo-D3> woah, bitcoin cards
423 2012-04-16 15:51:08 <t7> this is really cool
424 2012-04-16 15:51:16 <t7> money never has to go through a bank account
425 2012-04-16 15:52:56 <banshee12> t7: technically it never had to before... you could get paid cash in hand and just use cash
426 2012-04-16 15:53:01 <banshee12> to buy what you need
427 2012-04-16 15:53:22 <t7> you cant get paid salary in cash here in the UK
428 2012-04-16 15:53:32 <t7> well no real job will
429 2012-04-16 15:53:35 <luke-jr> o.o'
430 2012-04-16 15:54:02 <banshee12> haha funny t7
431 2012-04-16 15:54:15 <banshee12> what about plumbers, tradesman, tutors, babysitters
432 2012-04-16 15:54:24 <t7> i said real job
433 2012-04-16 15:55:03 <banshee12> whats a real job?
434 2012-04-16 15:55:42 <luke-jr> sorry, plumbing at least is a real job.
435 2012-04-16 15:56:26 <Diablo-D3> plumbers here in the US can make $100k+ a year
436 2012-04-16 15:56:30 <Diablo-D3> thats pretty fucking real to me
437 2012-04-16 15:56:52 <t7> a job where i can sit at my desk all day and talk on irc
438 2012-04-16 15:57:04 <banshee12> oh right
439 2012-04-16 15:57:20 <banshee12> thats not a job, thats called being a wage slave doing precious little for an oversized company
440 2012-04-16 15:57:26 <banshee12> and your right, you probably wont get paid cash in hand for that
441 2012-04-16 15:57:39 <banshee12> company and/or government
442 2012-04-16 15:57:43 <banshee12> that is
443 2012-04-16 15:58:46 <t7> its 5 o clock :D
444 2012-04-16 15:58:53 <t7> wage slave going home
445 2012-04-16 15:58:57 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120403211507])
446 2012-04-16 15:59:00 <banshee12> lol
447 2012-04-16 16:05:17 minimoose has joined
448 2012-04-16 16:07:12 <jgarzik_> heh
449 2012-04-16 16:07:15 <jgarzik_> poor genjix
450 2012-04-16 16:07:20 <jgarzik_> libbitcoin is already an outdated fork
451 2012-04-16 16:08:06 <wumpus> genjix never forked, he made his own from scratch right?
452 2012-04-16 16:08:24 <gmaxwell> libcoin != libbitcoin
453 2012-04-16 16:08:45 <gmaxwell> Only one is a fork, though I think both are outdated at the moment.
454 2012-04-16 16:09:09 <jgarzik_> ah
455 2012-04-16 16:09:16 <jgarzik_> correction: libbitcoin is already outdated
456 2012-04-16 16:09:52 * jgarzik_ also wonders if -any- alt implementation gets all the details of chain reorg correct
457 2012-04-16 16:10:12 <banshee12> why doesnt someone update it?
458 2012-04-16 16:10:13 <ThomasV> why is libbitcoin outdated?
459 2012-04-16 16:11:04 <jgarzik_> this "brand new" post is full of outdated info: http://bitcoinmedia.com/the-irc-bootstrap-method-is-flawed/
460 2012-04-16 16:11:21 <jgarzik_> my response is awaiting moderation... we'll see if it passes the filter
461 2012-04-16 16:11:35 <wumpus> https://gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin  last commit is from today, so they're not completely standing still
462 2012-04-16 16:11:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik_: You shouldn't bother loading bitcoinmedia, most everytthing published there is junk.
463 2012-04-16 16:12:02 <jgarzik_> gmaxwell: yeah, beginning to see that...  seems like a genjix rant site
464 2012-04-16 16:12:32 <jgarzik_> wumpus: the point is to keep up to date with network changes, not simply that the codebase receives commits
465 2012-04-16 16:12:53 <wumpus> jgarzik_: sure, but keeping up with a moving target is hard
466 2012-04-16 16:12:55 <gmaxwell> jgarzik_: which woudln't be so bad, except he has a terrible factual hitrate with his rants.
467 2012-04-16 16:12:57 <gavinandresen> I'm really surprised genjix isn't keeping more careful track of all the core code changes
468 2012-04-16 16:13:17 <luke-jr> well, you did "hide" the IRC defautl change in a refactor…
469 2012-04-16 16:13:25 <wumpus> it's being actively developed so I'm sure they'll catch up with network changes ... eventually 
470 2012-04-16 16:13:28 <luke-jr> he probably figured "meh, nothing interesting here"
471 2012-04-16 16:13:37 <gavinandresen> reading final release release notes wouldn't be a huge burden....
472 2012-04-16 16:13:43 <luke-jr> jgarzik_: bootstrapping isn't part of the Bitcoin protocol
473 2012-04-16 16:13:50 <luke-jr> so not of interest to libbitcoin
474 2012-04-16 16:14:14 <jgarzik_> luke-jr: that's true only in some theoretical world in your brain :)
475 2012-04-16 16:14:35 * jgarzik_ spies a gavinandresen 
476 2012-04-16 16:14:41 <gmaxwell> He's also helpfully misrepresented bitcoin's degree of sybil vulnerability. ugh. why did I load this page.
477 2012-04-16 16:14:44 <jgarzik_> gavinandresen: ACK for BIP 31 for 0.6.1?
478 2012-04-16 16:14:58 <jgarzik_> gmaxwell: indeed
479 2012-04-16 16:15:01 <gavinandresen> BIP 31 is pong?
480 2012-04-16 16:15:15 <jgarzik_> gavinandresen: yes.  pull req #1081
481 2012-04-16 16:15:45 <wumpus> lol, of course the expected DHT reply on that article
482 2012-04-16 16:15:56 <gmaxwell> wumpus: heheh.
483 2012-04-16 16:16:01 <jgarzik_> chuckle
484 2012-04-16 16:16:05 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
485 2012-04-16 16:16:37 <MC1984> genjix is cool :(
486 2012-04-16 16:16:41 <gmaxwell> Someday I'm going to get myself invited to some conference with the president, and while he's talking about some middle east conflict thing— I'm going to ask if they've considered using a DHT.
487 2012-04-16 16:16:42 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: implicitly that also means ACK to bump PROTOCOL_VERSION
488 2012-04-16 16:16:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: even though that change is not in #1081
489 2012-04-16 16:16:52 <wumpus> hahahahah
490 2012-04-16 16:16:54 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: lol
491 2012-04-16 16:17:06 <jgarzik> :)
492 2012-04-16 16:18:03 <jgarzik> bbiab
493 2012-04-16 16:18:16 <gavinandresen> ... still reading all the fence-painting comments about naming things....
494 2012-04-16 16:19:04 * luke-jr skipped that bit
495 2012-04-16 16:20:46 <banshee12> gavinandresen, gmaxwell: why do you guys allow the kinda retartedness that goes on #bitcoin ?
496 2012-04-16 16:21:51 <gmaxwell> banshee12: as you may have noticed, I was just prodding again
497 2012-04-16 16:22:13 <gavinandresen> banshee12: I hardly ever visit #bitcoin, have no idea what you're talking about.  And in general have an "if you don't like it, use ignore" attitude ttowards retardedness
498 2012-04-16 16:22:21 att has quit (Quit: Leaving)
499 2012-04-16 16:22:43 <wumpus> I thought #bitcoin solely existed as a filter to keep the retardedness out of here
500 2012-04-16 16:22:51 <banshee12> lol wumpus
501 2012-04-16 16:22:52 <luke-jr> lol
502 2012-04-16 16:22:56 <gavinandresen> (scolding trolls for trolling or idiots for being idiots is a waste of time, in my experience)
503 2012-04-16 16:23:12 <gmaxwell> wumpus: sssh.
504 2012-04-16 16:23:50 <gavinandresen> yeah, what I meant to say was "what do you mean, #bitcoin is fantastic, just because people have different ideas from you doesn't mean they're WRONG!"
505 2012-04-16 16:24:29 <banshee12> different ideas? some people are just being plain offensive
506 2012-04-16 16:24:36 <wumpus> yes, that's the diplomatic way to say it
507 2012-04-16 16:25:02 <gavinandresen> "Just because they have different ideas and different ways of EXPRESSING those ideas......"
508 2012-04-16 16:25:20 <gavinandresen> (ok, done trolling now, away for a while to finish doing taxes... grump grump grump....)
509 2012-04-16 16:25:58 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
510 2012-04-16 16:26:58 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
511 2012-04-16 16:34:08 <MC1984> You have been invited to #eligius by luke-jr (kornbluth.freenode.net)
512 2012-04-16 16:34:10 <MC1984> what
513 2012-04-16 16:34:50 <MC1984> how do you do irc invites
514 2012-04-16 16:35:00 <sturles> Just /invite
515 2012-04-16 16:35:27 <luke-jr> MC1984: it only works in +g channels tho
516 2012-04-16 16:39:02 <sipa> or if you're op
517 2012-04-16 16:39:43 t7 has joined
518 2012-04-16 16:39:53 * jgarzik hides
519 2012-04-16 16:40:18 <sipa> from?
520 2012-04-16 16:40:45 <luke-jr> he's an op here I guess
521 2012-04-16 16:40:49 <jgarzik> the fact I'm an op
522 2012-04-16 16:41:09 <sipa> ssssh
523 2012-04-16 16:46:18 <MC1984> just had a luxurious wet shave
524 2012-04-16 16:46:23 <MC1984> feeld good man
525 2012-04-16 16:47:16 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: you ruined it :<
526 2012-04-16 16:48:19 <t7> MC1984: fucking hipster
527 2012-04-16 16:48:34 <MC1984> what?
528 2012-04-16 16:49:12 <MC1984> shaving is for hipsters now?
529 2012-04-16 16:49:12 <luke-jr> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53650.0
530 2012-04-16 16:49:19 farfi has joined
531 2012-04-16 16:49:26 <farfi> yes?
532 2012-04-16 16:49:56 <luke-jr> farfi: what language is your Bitcoin-Qt using?
533 2012-04-16 16:50:10 <farfi> hebrew :)
534 2012-04-16 16:50:18 <luke-jr> any idea why it would think you know Hebrew?
535 2012-04-16 16:50:30 att has joined
536 2012-04-16 16:50:32 <farfi> the windows is in english but i have hebrew locale because of dates and stuff
537 2012-04-16 16:50:46 <farfi> i know hebrew.. im in israel
538 2012-04-16 16:50:46 <luke-jr> hmm
539 2012-04-16 16:51:17 <farfi> i added the  " -lang=en_US" to the command line and it works fine like that
540 2012-04-16 16:51:43 <farfi> but it installed according to the loacale and not the display language
541 2012-04-16 16:53:08 phungi has joined
542 2012-04-16 16:53:17 <luke-jr> but locale *is* display language… O.o
543 2012-04-16 16:53:25 <farfi> nope
544 2012-04-16 16:53:46 <farfi> My windows is english  but date/time is Hebrew( Israel)
545 2012-04-16 16:54:00 <luke-jr> can you open a command prompt, and run "set" ?
546 2012-04-16 16:54:04 <luke-jr> and pastebin its output
547 2012-04-16 16:54:06 <farfi> yeah
548 2012-04-16 16:54:30 pusle has joined
549 2012-04-16 16:56:20 <farfi> http://pastebin.com/fTjRTK5D
550 2012-04-16 16:57:16 <luke-jr> O.ol
551 2012-04-16 16:57:22 <luke-jr> don't see any locale settings in that
552 2012-04-16 16:57:34 <t7> i dont have any in mine :|
553 2012-04-16 16:59:00 toffoo has joined
554 2012-04-16 16:59:21 <farfi> If I look in regional setting its says locale hebrew(Israel)
555 2012-04-16 16:59:55 <farfi> back in a sec
556 2012-04-16 17:02:53 <luke-jr> in any case, this is a Qt bug.
557 2012-04-16 17:03:11 Bigpiggy01Mining has joined
558 2012-04-16 17:03:27 <luke-jr> farfi: https://bugreports.qt-project.org
559 2012-04-16 17:04:18 nexes has joined
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565 2012-04-16 17:17:41 guruvan is now known as AFK!~guruvan@gateway/tor-sasl/guruvan|guruvan
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567 2012-04-16 17:23:04 <farfi> luke-jr: reported it best I can on bugreports    thnx for taking the time
568 2012-04-16 17:23:13 drizztbsd has joined
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575 2012-04-16 17:41:35 <wumpus> I think that Qt bug is known, System::locale makes a guess about the locale, which is sometimes off if you have configured different locales for different things
576 2012-04-16 17:42:01 <luke-jr> wumpus: well, they should fix it :P
577 2012-04-16 17:42:19 <wumpus> yes there's nothing we can do about it
578 2012-04-16 17:42:50 <luke-jr> s/can/should/
579 2012-04-16 17:42:54 <wumpus> it's also because locales is still a mess, with different OSes having different types of settings
580 2012-04-16 17:43:00 <gmaxwell> wumpus: is there any way we can make it easier for users to swap their locale?
581 2012-04-16 17:43:16 <wumpus> we could add an option 
582 2012-04-16 17:43:34 talpan has joined
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584 2012-04-16 17:44:05 <wumpus> then again, -lang already works pretty well
585 2012-04-16 17:45:01 <luke-jr> "Bitcoin-Qt has detected you may use a language other than English. Which language do you want to use?<br>(same thing in other language)" <English> <ᵐᵐᵗτᵗ
586 2012-04-16 17:45:13 <gmaxwell> maybe that can all be improved with some docs?
587 2012-04-16 17:45:39 graingert has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
588 2012-04-16 17:45:43 <wumpus> I'm pretty sure using a language other than english should not be a warning condition
589 2012-04-16 17:45:45 [Tycho] has joined
590 2012-04-16 17:46:10 <wumpus> could just add a dropdown box to options where people can select their favorite language
591 2012-04-16 17:46:40 <luke-jr> wumpus: well, I mean on first-run
592 2012-04-16 17:46:40 capiscuas has quit (Quit: Leaving)
593 2012-04-16 17:46:56 <luke-jr> and remember it across restarts
594 2012-04-16 17:47:28 <luke-jr> ie, setting lang="en_US"/other_locale/"ENV"
595 2012-04-16 17:47:46 <luke-jr> (and using ENV if they click <other language>)
596 2012-04-16 17:48:14 <wumpus> yes, I meant an option in the QSettings
597 2012-04-16 17:48:31 <luke-jr> same here
598 2012-04-16 17:48:33 <luke-jr> :p
599 2012-04-16 17:48:52 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
600 2012-04-16 17:48:57 <luke-jr> just that it should ask at first-run, and that ENV should be an option (to hide the question)
601 2012-04-16 17:49:00 <wumpus> it's not high-priority though, the locale autodetection works pretty well, this is the first time I've heard it go wrong in ages
602 2012-04-16 17:49:22 <luke-jr> true, and afaik in both cases, the person *did* know the language
603 2012-04-16 17:49:29 <wumpus> yep
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620 2012-04-16 18:23:48 <farfi> just a word- it didnt happen to me in previous versions because there was no hebrew until this version
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641 2012-04-16 18:57:45 <sem_perfume> Hey can anyone help me out with some questions?
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654 2012-04-16 19:35:55 <sipa> sem_perfume: ask, don't ask to ask
655 2012-04-16 19:36:06 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
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657 2012-04-16 19:44:50 <sem_perfume> I want to know how the system prevents double-spending. Afaik, all honest nodes will try to create a honest block and add it to the chain of blocks.
658 2012-04-16 19:45:11 <sem_perfume> The honest block in question has all transaction that the node received before creating it.
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660 2012-04-16 19:45:39 <sem_perfume> An attacker then would have to branch the chain as soon as the honest block is appended, and work for it to get higher than the old chain.
661 2012-04-16 19:46:05 <sem_perfume> And as soon as the "fraudulent" chain gets higher, he can double spend.
662 2012-04-16 19:46:29 <sem_perfume> The block that he adds during the branching won't have his transactions, I suppose.
663 2012-04-16 19:46:31 <sem_perfume> Is that right?
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666 2012-04-16 19:50:42 <seco> nope, confirmation will only be done if miner who solved a new block decides to confirm this transaction on his way; i will try to find some documentation for you: this is a common myth with Bitcoin :)
667 2012-04-16 19:51:27 h4ckm3 has joined
668 2012-04-16 19:51:39 <seco> have a read on  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Point_of_sale_with_bitcoins_isn.27t_possible_because_of_the_10_minute_wait_for_confirmation   for the beginning
669 2012-04-16 19:52:37 <sem_perfume> Thanks
670 2012-04-16 19:52:59 <seco> to get the fraudulent chain higher, the attacker would need to solve the next block as well, and so on, to "win" the game
671 2012-04-16 19:54:21 <seco> which -how i understood protocol so far- would only be possible if you constantly own more then 50% of the hashing power of the network: you could get the network to stand still, but validation of the transaction will be still done on EVERY client on his own: you would have to "fake" a transaction from valid sources, to get also clients to accept it
672 2012-04-16 19:54:42 smoothie has quit (Quit: changing servers)
673 2012-04-16 19:55:06 <seco> and here my comprehension ends: im not sure what you would need to do next to get the network rolling on your fake transactions
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676 2012-04-16 19:56:04 <seco> i stopped investigating after i understood you need to solve the next chains next by next to confirm get your transaction confirmed :)
677 2012-04-16 19:56:23 <helo> as soon as you've mined the highest block with your double-spend in it (re-mining the first-spend out of the blockchain), you could turn off your mining hardware and the network would build ontop of your work
678 2012-04-16 19:56:39 <sem_perfume> Umm.. but as soon as your fake branch gets higher, won't all nodes start working on it too?
679 2012-04-16 19:56:54 machine2 has quit (Quit: : http://www.beta.facefox.com/index.php?do=/user/register/)
680 2012-04-16 19:57:03 <sem_perfume> Yeah, that's what I thought, helo.
681 2012-04-16 19:57:36 <sem_perfume> You only need to get the fake branch one block higher than the old one, then everybody will be building on the top of it by themselves.
682 2012-04-16 19:59:29 <midnightmagic> this is why you should wait for enough confirmations to satisfy yourself that a double spend is not feasible
683 2012-04-16 20:00:14 <seco> hmm and what about the need of all private gpg-keys to sign the incoming amount of money to your fake-btc-address; if incoming amount is not signed, no client node would validate your transaction as legit!
684 2012-04-16 20:01:11 <midnightmagic> .. signed? is this some kind of fairytale hypothetical that includes gpg in the mix?
685 2012-04-16 20:01:50 <seco> uhm no :p
686 2012-04-16 20:02:01 <sem_perfume> But double spending means the lack of a transaction, not a fake one, afaik.
687 2012-04-16 20:02:37 <seco> ah sorry, yes
688 2012-04-16 20:03:05 <helo> seco: creating the double-spend transaction will be done in the same way that the original spend was created. same inputs, different output(s).
689 2012-04-16 20:04:01 <helo> i suspect that you have to create a conflicting transaction sending the coin elsewhere to really do a double spend
690 2012-04-16 20:04:25 <midnightmagic> yah so basically it doesn't matter what other people think, only what they see as the highest work. NOTE: the other blocks are still there to be examined. the existence of a successful doublespend would be seen by everybody on the network, hurting trust in bitcoin
691 2012-04-16 20:04:44 <seco> so its all about waiting for the luck to get some new blocks in line to confirm ones own double-spended coins if i also understood midnightmagic right? But then doesnt become the double-spended coins reality for the network and the 1st spent coins would be canceled due to lack of confirmations?
692 2012-04-16 20:04:48 <helo> otherwise the original send transaction could still be mined
693 2012-04-16 20:05:17 devrando1 has joined
694 2012-04-16 20:05:24 <midnightmagic> correct
695 2012-04-16 20:05:33 <midnightmagic> sort of.
696 2012-04-16 20:06:01 <midnightmagic> the terminology you are using would tweak pedantic people who would be correcting you right now, but that's the gist of it
697 2012-04-16 20:06:18 <seco> haha cool the more you find out about bitcoin the more intersting it is: i know about networktheory, but im always too lazy to think deep enough into it lol
698 2012-04-16 20:06:42 <seco> yes i know...but we arent in a scientific paper here *smile'
699 2012-04-16 20:07:02 <MC1984> pedants in my IRC?
700 2012-04-16 20:07:05 <MC1984> its more likely than you think
701 2012-04-16 20:07:27 <sem_perfume> oh jeez i'm doing a presentation about bitcoin and stuff tomorrow, hope i won't speak too much trash
702 2012-04-16 20:07:32 <midnightmagic> some people believe all incorrect ideas should be stamped out as early as possible. i'm not really one of those people. :) just warning you for when you talk to othe people
703 2012-04-16 20:07:51 <MC1984> sensible guy
704 2012-04-16 20:09:11 <seco> oh cool sem_perfume, what technical background does your audience has? there are already some sildes flying around on internet, incl. gavins one for cia i think :)
705 2012-04-16 20:09:29 <seco> slides*
706 2012-04-16 20:09:54 smoothie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
707 2012-04-16 20:09:54 h4ckm3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
708 2012-04-16 20:10:47 <seco> but better move conversation to #bitcoin, or /query: i think that would no longer be stuff for developers-chan: they want to work here ;)
709 2012-04-16 20:11:57 <sem_perfume> well, they're mostly graduation students of computer engineering. i'm confident about the protocol talk and stuff, just gotta read more about the chain of blocks
710 2012-04-16 20:13:58 <midnightmagic> technical discussion of bitcoin is on topic here in my opinion
711 2012-04-16 20:14:29 <MC1984> irc police
712 2012-04-16 20:16:19 <seco> i guess you already fount http://en.bitcoin.it, i would start with https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_chain_browser dangleing down to abstraction level you need, but add some facts to your slides and hand them over to me if you explain aspects of blockchain :D - blockexplorer.com always gave me good examples to the pictures on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction :)
713 2012-04-16 20:16:55 <seco> and i think im just to lazy to put all parts together for me on my own :p
714 2012-04-16 20:17:32 <MC1984> problem with bitcoin is there are no intuitive analogies
715 2012-04-16 20:17:36 <MC1984> for how it works
716 2012-04-16 20:17:43 <luke-jr> there kindof is
717 2012-04-16 20:17:47 <luke-jr> gold
718 2012-04-16 20:17:49 * seco likes to thank all workers on en.bitcoin.it: This is really usefull ressource!
719 2012-04-16 20:18:05 <midnightmagic> some people learn better theough discussion
720 2012-04-16 20:18:17 <MC1984> no how it actually work
721 2012-04-16 20:19:43 <seco> true, but you cant hide from diving into literature if your audience is a bunch of computer engineering guys ;)
722 2012-04-16 20:21:41 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic> the terminology you are using would tweak pedantic people who would be correcting you right now  < at the point in reading the backscroll I was indeed twitching to correct sem_perfume.
723 2012-04-16 20:21:46 <gmaxwell> And you guys all suck.
724 2012-04-16 20:22:12 * seco hides
725 2012-04-16 20:22:24 <gmaxwell> sem_perfume: _double spending_ is the same money being spent twice, creating the inflation. It's the fundimental problem that digital currency has, without which digital money would be trivial.
726 2012-04-16 20:22:51 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin provides absolute protection against double spending by only allowing one spend of a transaction in the chain.
727 2012-04-16 20:23:14 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74581.msg853910#msg853910
728 2012-04-16 20:23:55 <gmaxwell> The thing you're talking about isn't double spending so much as it's a reversal of a transaction, presumably followed by a conflicting spend to prevent the revsersal from being undone (because it doesn't allow double spending)
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731 2012-04-16 20:29:16 <Joric> electrum-gen http://brainwallet.org/#chains
732 2012-04-16 20:30:28 <sem_perfume> i believe fake branches have been created several times by now, right?
733 2012-04-16 20:30:28 <ThomasV> Joric: phishing?
734 2012-04-16 20:30:42 <sem_perfume> the "paper" i read talked about the existance of 41% pools nowadays
735 2012-04-16 20:31:02 <Joric> ThomasV, opensource
736 2012-04-16 20:31:23 <seco> what i meant with the double-spended tx B turning into reality if you manage to get it confirmed during next blocks: but what if next 3 blocks confirm B (mined by devil workers). Is it possible the that wellminded angel workers just dont confirm that transaction from 4th block into the future or is this case not possible, and its already to late for the network that new blocks confirm the 1st transaction A after 1st block on which tx B was confirmed?
737 2012-04-16 20:31:26 <sem_perfume> that is around 16% chance of creating a fake branch
738 2012-04-16 20:32:25 <ThomasV> Joric: sure, but you could covertly change the javascript to sniff passphrases
739 2012-04-16 20:33:05 <ThomasV> I would never type a wallet seed in a webpage
740 2012-04-16 20:33:18 <Joric> it's hosted live on github
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748 2012-04-16 20:36:24 <seco> i always fount the most complicated examples in parallel computing - sorry if i confused, i just wanted to be sure its decided by the next block
749 2012-04-16 20:37:35 <gmaxwell> sem_perfume: "fake branches" is nonsense.
750 2012-04-16 20:38:01 <gmaxwell> The system naturally forms little forks here and there... this can't be prevented because the speed of light is finite.
751 2012-04-16 20:38:16 <gmaxwell> They're not fake - they just lost and didn't become part of the longest chain.
752 2012-04-16 20:38:21 <ThomasV> Joric: anyway, it's a nice piece of work
753 2012-04-16 20:40:33 <seco> i think sem_perfume meant the branch i described with B as fake-branch: From network point of view its reality, and the first tx "lost the race" :)
754 2012-04-16 20:41:00 att has joined
755 2012-04-16 20:42:46 <sem_perfume> by fake branch i meant a chain that was generated by an attacker
756 2012-04-16 20:42:52 <sem_perfume> in order to reverse a transaction
757 2012-04-16 20:43:36 <sem_perfume> i don't have a better name for it because satoshi uses the term "honest blocks" but doesn't present one that means the opposite
758 2012-04-16 20:46:04 <gmaxwell> sem_perfume: okay. Yes, the paper gives figures for how likely someone is to be able to overtake a chain of certian depth, giving a certian hash power for the attacker.. in order to reverse a transaction— which, if it's their transaction they can make sure their fork mines a conflicting one thus making the reversal permanent (since the system won't allow two spends of the funds).
759 2012-04-16 20:46:36 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: thanks for the forum reply :)
760 2012-04-16 20:47:06 <gmaxwell> Normal convention in the bitcoin world is to wait at least six blocks before considering an otherwise untrusted transaction irreversable.
761 2012-04-16 20:47:31 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: Think that was adequate?
762 2012-04-16 20:47:53 <ThomasV> very much
763 2012-04-16 20:48:00 <sem_perfume> oh, i'll have sure to add that to my presentation. thanks gmaxwell
764 2012-04-16 20:48:20 <helo> sem_perfume: one thing i've found many people have trouble understanding is how bitcoin can have any value at all, without anything physical "backing" it
765 2012-04-16 20:48:39 <sem_perfume> six blocks means that a pool with 41% power only has 4% chance to revert a transaction
766 2012-04-16 20:49:00 <sem_perfume> thats more safe than our current banking system, as far as it goes lol
767 2012-04-16 20:49:13 <gmaxwell> sem_perfume: well credit cards aren't irreversable for several months.
768 2012-04-16 20:49:32 <gmaxwell> sem_perfume: do the math again for 72 blocks. ;) (~12 hours) 0_o
769 2012-04-16 20:50:47 <gmaxwell> And the 96% of the time they fail to overtake.... they lose all the coin they generated when the gave up... at least 3000 BTC for 6 blocks right now.
770 2012-04-16 20:51:16 <helo> *300?
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772 2012-04-16 20:52:03 <gmaxwell> Yea... repeated 0 there. ;)
773 2012-04-16 20:52:24 <sem_perfume> oh jeez, my network security professor is going to get nuts with those numbers
774 2012-04-16 20:52:52 <sem_perfume> afaik he doesn't believe stuff like freenet or bitcoins can be safe
775 2012-04-16 20:53:19 <gmaxwell> Well, none of it can be completely safe.. But it's also the case that you might get struck by a meteor. :)
776 2012-04-16 20:53:37 * gmaxwell flies
777 2012-04-16 20:54:15 <seco> mhmm 0.41^6=0.004, so its actually 0.4%, isnt it?
778 2012-04-16 20:54:55 <sem_perfume> thats right seco
779 2012-04-16 20:55:17 <sem_perfume> even safer
780 2012-04-16 20:56:31 <seco> so the only reason to wait is to ensure no "hidden solved parallel chain" pops up from another branch telling you the past is wrong?
781 2012-04-16 20:56:44 erle- has joined
782 2012-04-16 20:58:29 <seco> id still like to connect that to validation on local nodes, but i guess the reason why nobody talks about them is, that double spended tx would be positively validated by every node as long as the "line of blocks" fulfills the assumption of a valid source
783 2012-04-16 20:58:37 <sem_perfume> the more you wait, the harder it is for the attacker to make the alternative chain higher
784 2012-04-16 20:59:17 <sem_perfume> thats why satoshi tells people to make new wallets for every transaction
785 2012-04-16 21:00:03 <sem_perfume> a pool can keep on trying to make an alternative chain without risk until they're lucky enough to get one that is high enough (all without announcing its blocks)
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787 2012-04-16 21:00:41 <sem_perfume> and right after they manage to, they broadcast a transaction to you, wait for it to get accepted and announce all the hidden parallel chain
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789 2012-04-16 21:01:04 <seco> oh well, that i fully understand how how fully careless most Bitcoin users are atm: Most transactions which are being done person-to-person are considered "finished" after they got carried to receiver through network (after some seconds, if both nodes are connected to network, and are sitting on a branch derived from the same blockchain (e.g. not in a darknet))
790 2012-04-16 21:01:24 <helo> sem_perfume: i'm not sure if that's why satoshi tells people to make a new wallet for every transaction
791 2012-04-16 21:02:49 <helo> sem_perfume: i think using a new address for every transaction just helps obfuscate ownership of funds
792 2012-04-16 21:03:19 * seco also hears 1st time of a new wallet for each tx
793 2012-04-16 21:03:23 <sem_perfume> i'm trying to find that part in http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf but cant find it atm
794 2012-04-16 21:03:36 <sem_perfume> but yeah it also helps anonimity
795 2012-04-16 21:03:46 <sem_perfume> anonymity*
796 2012-04-16 21:04:43 <sem_perfume> "The receiver generates a new key pair and gives the public key to the sender shortly before
797 2012-04-16 21:04:43 <sem_perfume> signing.  This prevents the sender from preparing a chain of blocks ahead of time by working on
798 2012-04-16 21:04:43 <sem_perfume> it continuously until he is lucky enough to get far enough ahead, then executing the transaction at
799 2012-04-16 21:04:43 <sem_perfume> that moment. "
800 2012-04-16 21:04:47 <helo> seco: new "address" for each transaction. i.e. every time you give an address to a customer, it is a new address that only they see.
801 2012-04-16 21:05:30 <helo> sem_perfume: ahh!
802 2012-04-16 21:06:09 <seco> yes, he meant a new address; but all addresses (with their private keys) are stored in the "wallet"!
803 2012-04-16 21:07:02 * seco lets multiple wallet clients out here
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809 2012-04-16 21:10:31 <t7> wallet is just a satoshi client thing, right?
810 2012-04-16 21:11:25 <seco> its name of container which stored the keypairs of to the users bitcoin-addresses :)
811 2012-04-16 21:11:57 <seco> but i think for the sake of reusability all call it wallets in their clients :p
812 2012-04-16 21:12:09 <seco> stores*
813 2012-04-16 21:12:11 <t7> my client throws away private keys
814 2012-04-16 21:12:24 * seco smiles
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816 2012-04-16 21:12:39 <t7> save disk space... in the future it will use quantum computers to solve the private key
817 2012-04-16 21:13:05 <seco> so i would be confused if you name that kind of struct a wallet :p
818 2012-04-16 21:14:08 <t7> seco: are you an encryption buff?
819 2012-04-16 21:14:43 <helo> sem_perfume: while that is true, i don't think it is relied upon heavily
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821 2012-04-16 21:15:41 <seco> im sorry: just knowing from general topics a bit: like calculating for you some RSA by pen and paper, but nothing deep
822 2012-04-16 21:16:19 <sipa> t7: your client throws away private keys? heh?
823 2012-04-16 21:16:22 <t7> i don't suppose then you have heard of lattice based ciphers...?
824 2012-04-16 21:16:25 <seco> you know...finding some prime and such haha
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827 2012-04-16 21:19:10 <t7> ECDSA still seems the best signing algo in terms of key length / strength
828 2012-04-16 21:19:24 <t7> but quantum comperders will break it
829 2012-04-16 21:19:52 <sipa> t7: Ed25519
830 2012-04-16 21:20:22 <Joric> ed209
831 2012-04-16 21:20:26 <sipa> 32 byte secret keys, 32 byte public keys, 64 byte deterministic signatures, and 128-bit security
832 2012-04-16 21:21:04 <sipa> (and far faster than ECDSA on secp256k1)
833 2012-04-16 21:22:13 <t7> ooo
834 2012-04-16 21:22:15 <seco> t7: if you mean something like cs.tau.ac.il/~odedr/papers/pqc.pdf im afraid i will have to give up if it comes to the maths like they start talking about on Preliminaries :-( - so i would be still confused if you write in your documentation not to store any private key data in your wallet :p
835 2012-04-16 21:22:43 <t7> haha i was just joking
836 2012-04-16 21:23:49 <seco> but i remember most terms from maths lectures *g*
837 2012-04-16 21:25:51 <seco> mhm i keep it at Lattices...i prefer playing around with something else then going on with q-ary ones lol
838 2012-04-16 21:26:08 <seco> im not here at work :p
839 2012-04-16 21:32:01 <seco> sem_perfume: would be great if you put your presentation somewhere to public domain, so interested ppl can zap through and learn something :))
840 2012-04-16 21:33:11 <sem_perfume> i'll make sure to do that
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905 2012-04-16 23:58:55 <diki> question
906 2012-04-16 23:59:09 <diki> is the data field in a getwork supposed to be different on every request?
907 2012-04-16 23:59:37 <Diablo-D3> uh, yes?
908 2012-04-16 23:59:41 <Diablo-D3> how else would it work?
909 2012-04-16 23:59:45 <diki> what does it mean if it's not?
910 2012-04-16 23:59:57 <ageis> stalez