1 2012-04-18 00:01:02 <luke-jr> Dagger2: not as easy as you might think
  2 2012-04-18 00:01:08 <luke-jr> I suspect we're at GitHub's mercy
  3 2012-04-18 00:03:24 <Dagger2> ah, and I don't see them listed on worldipv6launch.org either
  4 2012-04-18 00:03:28 <Dagger2> you should poke them
  5 2012-04-18 00:03:39 <Dagger2> though if they're donating server space I can see why you might not want to...
  6 2012-04-18 00:17:32 minimoose has joined
  7 2012-04-18 00:22:22 <sipa> how about we add a AAAA record for ::ffff:204.232.175.78 at bitcoin.org?
  8 2012-04-18 00:22:32 <luke-jr> sipa: …
  9 2012-04-18 00:22:46 <luke-jr> you know those aren't valid on the real internet? :P
 10 2012-04-18 00:23:01 <sipa> they aren't?
 11 2012-04-18 00:23:16 <luke-jr> they're assigned, but you can't route to them
 12 2012-04-18 00:23:51 <sipa> right, they're only available inside dual-stack systems
 13 2012-04-18 00:24:06 <sipa> and must be converted to IPv4 before leaving the dual stack
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 27 2012-04-18 00:51:32 <genjix> ;;seen tcatm
 28 2012-04-18 00:51:32 <gribble> tcatm was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 3 days, 2 hours, 51 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <tcatm> Samuel: Yep. I haven't found time to intergrate them yet. Also, changing the icons is a little tricky.
 29 2012-04-18 00:51:39 <Joric> http://brainwallet.org/#chains <- armory gen
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 54 2012-04-18 02:12:54 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened pull request 1121 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1121>
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 79 2012-04-18 04:58:41 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: dlitz opened pull request 1122 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1122>
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134 2012-04-18 09:37:54 <sneak> hi
135 2012-04-18 09:38:05 <sneak> how does the bitcoin client find out the current block count?
136 2012-04-18 09:38:16 <sneak> to give the little percentage synched display
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138 2012-04-18 09:41:52 <sirk390> sneak: there is a field called 'start_height" in the version message
139 2012-04-18 09:42:39 <sirk390>  sneak: this gives the last block received by the remote peer
140 2012-04-18 09:42:53 <sneak> ahh, gotcha.
141 2012-04-18 09:43:15 <sneak> thanks for the info! :)
142 2012-04-18 09:43:31 <sirk390> you're welcome
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161 2012-04-18 11:43:23 <Rebroad> sipa, thanks for the help with git. now rebased
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179 2012-04-18 12:22:09 <random2> hello does anyone know if the bitcoinj java client supports a full client or is it limited?
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183 2012-04-18 12:25:17 <Joric> random2, it's not a full-node, it doesn't download/populate whole blocks, only headers
184 2012-04-18 12:25:52 <Joric> multibit/bitcoinj is a parasite of the bitcoin world :)
185 2012-04-18 12:26:38 <random2> my problem is im all java . is there a full java client?
186 2012-04-18 12:27:47 <Joric> only bitcoinj afaik
187 2012-04-18 12:27:56 <Joric> ie there's none
188 2012-04-18 12:28:24 <random2> cpp here i come. oh well
189 2012-04-18 12:28:28 <Joric> 'bitcoinj · A Java implementation of a Bitcoin client-only node'
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210 2012-04-18 13:05:50 <UukGoblin> https://github.com/goblin/chronobit
211 2012-04-18 13:05:54 <UukGoblin> feedback welcome :-)
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213 2012-04-18 13:07:10 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: interesting; add it to BitGit :p
214 2012-04-18 13:10:07 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: holy crap, you used perl? :)
215 2012-04-18 13:10:16 <gmaxwell> Why not brainf#@$@ ? :)
216 2012-04-18 13:10:57 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, I LIKE perl!
217 2012-04-18 13:11:00 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, done
218 2012-04-18 13:11:32 <Diablo-D3> predictinator's generator script is perl
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225 2012-04-18 13:29:32 <[Tycho]>  Why use coinbase for this, when you can just submit a TX ?
226 2012-04-18 13:30:23 <UukGoblin> [Tycho], actually, this should also be able to create proofs for a submitted TX. Basically a TX costs money, and people don't like "dodgy" transactions bloating up the bitcoin chain.
227 2012-04-18 13:31:02 <UukGoblin> [Tycho], you'd either have to burn 0.0005 BTC forever (to an address that doesn't exist but is actually a hash), or create a 0-valued output and get a miner to include it
228 2012-04-18 13:31:04 <[Tycho]> So adding data to coinbase is not bloating ?
229 2012-04-18 13:31:31 att has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
230 2012-04-18 13:31:42 <UukGoblin> [Tycho], I'm not adding anything to the coinbase (assuming you're merged mining namecoins already)
231 2012-04-18 13:31:45 <[Tycho]> 1) You aren't doing anything bad if you at least pay fees for your TX, 2) Don't burn money, use redeemable TXes.
232 2012-04-18 13:32:06 <[Tycho]> Oh, merged mining...
233 2012-04-18 13:32:12 <UukGoblin> [Tycho], I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying some people don't like it
234 2012-04-18 13:32:12 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: this adds no bloat, so it scales. Adding TXs doesn't scale.
235 2012-04-18 13:32:37 <[Tycho]> Well, I can say that merged mining bloats the blockchain :)
236 2012-04-18 13:32:39 <[Tycho]> jk.
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238 2012-04-18 13:33:39 <UukGoblin> it kinda does, actually. :->
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240 2012-04-18 13:33:44 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin's system could commit to a trillion hashes, and it adds zero bytes.  (since it currently only works with p2pool, which is alredy merged mining you can't even say it adds 32 bytes/block ... but 32bytes a block would be pretty good for a trillion commitments)
241 2012-04-18 13:35:49 <gmaxwell> The bad p2sh transaction is still circulating I see.
242 2012-04-18 13:35:53 <[Tycho]> Adding one TX per each service providing timestamping is not too bad.
243 2012-04-18 13:36:00 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: where ?
244 2012-04-18 13:36:43 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: would be nice if it wasn't p2pool-dependent tho ;P
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248 2012-04-18 13:41:54 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, well, normal pools don't link their shares
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250 2012-04-18 13:51:52 <gmaxwell> Interesting to see a block with an eligius style coinbase mining an invalid block: https://blockchain.info/block-index/208510
251 2012-04-18 13:58:00 <DrHaribo> Why is it invalid?
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253 2012-04-18 14:04:32 <gmaxwell> DrHaribo: because it includes an invalid transaction.
254 2012-04-18 14:04:51 <gmaxwell> (this one https://blockchain.info/tx-index/3618498/4005d6bea3a93fb72f006d23e2685b85069d270cb57d15f0c057ef2d5e3f78d2?show_adv=true )
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256 2012-04-18 14:05:40 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: Eligius-style how?
257 2012-04-18 14:06:13 <DrHaribo> Wow, that tx has been included in a lot of blocks
258 2012-04-18 14:06:18 <luke-jr> lol
259 2012-04-18 14:07:28 <DrHaribo> What exactly is wrong with this tx?
260 2012-04-18 14:07:30 <UukGoblin> DrHaribo, exactly what I just wanted to say
261 2012-04-18 14:07:35 <UukGoblin> in a lot of orphaned blocks
262 2012-04-18 14:07:39 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: it's invalid
263 2012-04-18 14:07:58 <luke-jr> but valid under pre-BIP16 rules
264 2012-04-18 14:07:59 <UukGoblin> there's either a bug somewhere or someone's been trying pretty hard to include it
265 2012-04-18 14:08:13 <DrHaribo> Why it's invalid is what I wanted to know
266 2012-04-18 14:08:13 <UukGoblin> ah, that's unsurprising, someone mining with an old bitcoind
267 2012-04-18 14:08:16 <luke-jr> this is why miners without BIP16 support can't make blocks
268 2012-04-18 14:08:32 <DrHaribo> Damn, someone lost a lot of BTC on this
269 2012-04-18 14:08:33 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: it's basically an attempt to steal BIP16-sent funds
270 2012-04-18 14:09:27 <DrHaribo> Hm, would it be an idea to have a bitcoind json-rpc call to validate a transaction?
271 2012-04-18 14:09:28 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: due to how Bitcoin works, its existence pretty much guarantees non-BIP16-compliant miners will always produce invalid blocks
272 2012-04-18 14:09:36 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: I've considered that.
273 2012-04-18 14:09:39 <DrHaribo> So bitcoind could tell you if it is valid or not before you start hashing it
274 2012-04-18 14:09:54 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: well, pre-BIP16 bitcoind would say this is valid :P
275 2012-04-18 14:10:19 <DrHaribo> Yes, but in general.. currently I just use the exact txes I get with "getmemorypool"
276 2012-04-18 14:10:31 <DrHaribo> Messing with it is a bit dangerous if you can't be sure a tx is valid
277 2012-04-18 14:10:33 <luke-jr> the reason for a processtx JSON-RPC call would be to validate miner-provided transactions (GMP mining)
278 2012-04-18 14:10:42 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, so that kinda shows us how much hashpower gets wasted on un-updated miners
279 2012-04-18 14:11:09 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: yeah, might be nice to chart pre-BIP16 hashrate :p
280 2012-04-18 14:11:09 <DrHaribo> GMP? new acronym?
281 2012-04-18 14:11:14 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: GetMemoryPool
282 2012-04-18 14:11:18 <DrHaribo> ah nvm :P
283 2012-04-18 14:11:34 <gmaxwell> DrHaribo: you absoltely can't twiddle with the transactions just based on some validate call.. because transactions can conflict with each other.
284 2012-04-18 14:11:35 <luke-jr> DrHaribo: Eligius serves it to end miners, for decentralized mining
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288 2012-04-18 14:11:44 <UukGoblin> you can see there was a lot of blocks on 2nd and 3rd of april
289 2012-04-18 14:11:49 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: ugh, you just made my life harder :P
290 2012-04-18 14:11:55 <UukGoblin> then just 2 on 4th and 3 on 5th
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292 2012-04-18 14:12:07 <luke-jr> maybe GMP isn't well-suited for mining :/
293 2012-04-18 14:12:13 <DrHaribo> gmaxwell: damn, good point.. ok, how about "please tell me whether this list of txes makes a valid block"?
294 2012-04-18 14:12:18 <luke-jr> or needs more extension
295 2012-04-18 14:12:19 <gmaxwell> I mean— a validate call could validate a _set_ but single txn wouldn't be safe.
296 2012-04-18 14:12:26 <gmaxwell> DrHaribo: that would work.
297 2012-04-18 14:12:33 <luke-jr> pool -> miner: GMP block template
298 2012-04-18 14:12:42 <luke-jr> miner -> pool: GMP block proposal
299 2012-04-18 14:12:47 <luke-jr> pool -> miner: ACK
300 2012-04-18 14:12:52 <luke-jr> miner -> pool: header results
301 2012-04-18 14:12:53 <gavinandresen> The best way to tell if a block is valid is to broadcast it and then see if more than 50% of the network builds on it....  :)
302 2012-04-18 14:13:04 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: if you do that kind of set validation, you should also make it nak if the proposed block burns fees.
303 2012-04-18 14:13:09 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: then you need to do the work first
304 2012-04-18 14:13:46 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: hmm
305 2012-04-18 14:14:00 <luke-jr> maybe ACK should allow revising the generation txn
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307 2012-04-18 14:14:42 <DrHaribo> Much less overhead if gen tx isn't included
308 2012-04-18 14:15:16 <DrHaribo> (client can increase an extra-nonce without checking with you every time)
309 2012-04-18 14:15:31 <gavinandresen> Anybody looking to do some productive busy-work?  I'
310 2012-04-18 14:15:49 <gavinandresen> I'm looking for volunteers to expand the tests in:  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1121/files
311 2012-04-18 14:16:05 <luke-jr> gavin accidentally his enter key.
312 2012-04-18 14:16:12 <gavinandresen> no I did
313 2012-04-18 14:16:12 <gavinandresen> nt
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333 2012-04-18 15:35:12 <banshee12> <banshee12> surely this is a scam
334 2012-04-18 15:35:12 <banshee12> <banshee12> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAZSQO7BAkg
335 2012-04-18 15:35:13 <banshee12> <banshee12> someones claiming they have software called pristine miner
336 2012-04-18 15:35:13 <banshee12> <banshee12> that increases your returns on mining 300%
337 2012-04-18 15:35:13 <banshee12> <banshee12> anyone know about this?
338 2012-04-18 15:36:44 <banshee12> luke-jr, gmaxwell: you guys heard of these?
339 2012-04-18 15:37:33 capiscuas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
340 2012-04-18 15:38:03 capiscuas has joined
341 2012-04-18 15:38:27 <Graet> i saw a forum post and lolled
342 2012-04-18 15:38:49 <banshee12> do you think people will fall for this?
343 2012-04-18 15:38:52 Blitzboom_ has joined
344 2012-04-18 15:39:15 fimpfimp has joined
345 2012-04-18 15:39:18 <banshee12> "here download this .exe on drop box... earn 3 times as much, it really works" lol
346 2012-04-18 15:39:22 <JFK911> amazing technology
347 2012-04-18 15:39:23 capiscuas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
348 2012-04-18 15:39:25 <banshee12> unbeleivable
349 2012-04-18 15:39:45 <Graet> yep, i download any random stuff from someone elses dropbox ;)
350 2012-04-18 15:39:51 capiscuas has joined
351 2012-04-18 15:40:04 <JFK911> worked great for wallet.dats
352 2012-04-18 15:40:12 <Graet> :P
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368 2012-04-18 16:37:36 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: c00w opened issue 1123 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1123>
369 2012-04-18 16:39:13 <luke-jr> would be nice if the exception handling didn't break coredumping
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393 2012-04-18 17:51:06 <ciscoftw> had a question regarding the way that bitcoind and long polling work... when i participate via pooled mining, my mining client (phoenix) reports 'LP: New Work pushed' even when a block has not been solved by the network (would make sense if the 'new work pushed' only occured when a block solved -but it doesnt) ...when i run bitcoind (with --server argument) i never see a 'LP: new work
394 2012-04-18 17:51:06 <ciscoftw> pushed' message, i assume this is because the pool operators use sometype of custom bitcoind service or a modified rpc connector??? any suggestions would be most helpful
395 2012-04-18 17:54:26 <luke-jr> bitcoind doesn't support longpolling at all, nor really mining directly anymore
396 2012-04-18 17:54:46 <ciscoftw> thanx for reponse, what are the mining pool operators useing?
397 2012-04-18 17:55:11 <luke-jr> Eloipool (Python), ecoinpool (Erlang), and PoolServerJ (Java) mainly
398 2012-04-18 17:55:19 <luke-jr> (in order of most maintained)
399 2012-04-18 17:55:25 <sipa> note that luke-jr is the author of eloipool
400 2012-04-18 17:55:35 <ciscoftw> :)
401 2012-04-18 17:56:19 <luke-jr> sipa: it's interesting how the other poolservers seem to fall off unmaintained fairly rapidly, though
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426 2012-04-18 19:10:29 <ferroh> someone was recently asking me if there was a command to specify the location of the wallet in the satoshi client
427 2012-04-18 19:10:43 <ferroh> (but leave the blockchain on the disk)
428 2012-04-18 19:11:20 <ferroh> the reason is that he wanted to have his wallet on a usb key, but not the blockchain (since leaving the blockchain on the usb key basically renders the satoshi client unusable)
429 2012-04-18 19:11:54 <sipa> for now, no
430 2012-04-18 19:12:11 <ferroh> It seems like a good idea to me. Does anyone see a problem with having a flag that specifies the wallet location only?
431 2012-04-18 19:12:19 <ferroh> yeah, I know such a flag doesn't exist
432 2012-04-18 19:12:19 davout has joined
433 2012-04-18 19:12:39 <ferroh> im wondering if you can think of any reason not to implement this.
434 2012-04-18 19:12:39 <sipa> no, but it's not that trivial to impleement
435 2012-04-18 19:13:00 <sipa> it would need a second database environment
436 2012-04-18 19:13:31 <sipa> not that hard, but we're considering moving away from bdb for the wallet entirely
437 2012-04-18 19:13:56 <ferroh> a hackish temp solution I suppose would be to just use a script that copies the wallet from the usb key before opening the client. That should work, right?
438 2012-04-18 19:14:15 <ferroh> what are the proposed database alternatives sipa?
439 2012-04-18 19:14:32 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
440 2012-04-18 19:14:39 <sipa> textfile, own binary format, ...
441 2012-04-18 19:15:08 <sipa> there have been some ideas, but nothing implemented so far
442 2012-04-18 19:19:54 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
443 2012-04-18 19:20:55 <seco> textfile makes it easy to print to paper after decryption of the wallet for offline usage :)
444 2012-04-18 19:22:00 LittleDuke has quit (Quit: It's probably something you said)
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446 2012-04-18 19:23:01 * seco thinks of universal wallet format: run any bitcoin-client, choose wallet, and pay!
447 2012-04-18 19:23:37 <sipa> the problem is that different clients have a very different idea of what a wallet is
448 2012-04-18 19:24:20 <sipa> so i don't think compatible wallets is easily achievable, but maybe a common wallet interchange format...
449 2012-04-18 19:24:34 <seco> yep, but thats also something Open Document Format had at the beginnning...M$ still thinks different then most textprocessors :P
450 2012-04-18 19:25:03 <sipa> no, that's something very different; MS Office and OpenOffice at least agree on what a text document is
451 2012-04-18 19:25:26 <sipa> it's more like comparing .doc with .tex if you want an analogy with wallets
452 2012-04-18 19:25:45 <seco> mhm .doc is binary, .tex not
453 2012-04-18 19:26:20 <sipa> or .tex and .html
454 2012-04-18 19:26:35 <sipa> you can't just convert one to the other
455 2012-04-18 19:26:40 <seco> well im usability oriented sorry to sound sometimes dumb, but in many cases it has to be just "easy" usable at the end
456 2012-04-18 19:27:11 <sipa> right, but how do you deal with one program that uses deterministic wallets, and another that uses random generated keys?
457 2012-04-18 19:27:20 <sipa> you can't convert one to the other, in neither direction
458 2012-04-18 19:27:41 <sipa> even though the user interface may be very similar
459 2012-04-18 19:27:44 <seco> agree on printable keypairs of private and public keys :)
460 2012-04-18 19:28:08 <sipa> whatabout a printable deterministic wallet seed?
461 2012-04-18 19:28:18 <sipa> that's the equivalent on the other side
462 2012-04-18 19:28:28 <sipa> and actually much more useful than just printable keys
463 2012-04-18 19:28:54 <seco> if it doesnt fit to the other wallet struct, then simply call it "proprietary" :p
464 2012-04-18 19:29:26 <seco> like optional tags interpretated by each client different by tagname
465 2012-04-18 19:29:30 <sipa> i'll tell you what will happen if you try: you define a common format with some optional tags
466 2012-04-18 19:29:52 <sipa> but in the end no tool will really work well with the others, because none use the common tags, and all user their own proprietary tags
467 2012-04-18 19:30:23 <seco> yes, let everybody put whatevery they want into the optional tags
468 2012-04-18 19:30:48 <sipa> my point is that this only makes sense if programs agree on what a wallet is
469 2012-04-18 19:30:52 <sipa> and they don't
470 2012-04-18 19:30:55 <seco> i would just state by convention on all clients: everything there is not MUST have to use the wallet
471 2012-04-18 19:31:22 <sipa> i don't understand that
472 2012-04-18 19:33:24 <seco> i find printable private and public keys as universal for a text-wallet. everything else could just be put into an "other"-tag, and if clients do overwrite it (similar to X-Tag on email headers), its up to the clients to evaluate but coins MUST not be lost, because everbody agreed on using the bottom part of the wallet outside "other"-tag only for universal format of private and public keys
473 2012-04-18 19:34:10 <seco> i always try to find comparisons like ODF or this new css-specification i think it is, where they try to solve those problems of collaborating, or already solved it
474 2012-04-18 19:34:48 <seco> every browser has its own tags they interpret
475 2012-04-18 19:35:32 <sipa> right, but browsers agree on what a site is
476 2012-04-18 19:35:39 <seco> i think W3C simply put alltogether into some "other"-tag :p (well some containers like chrome-1, or firefox-10 or such)
477 2012-04-18 19:36:19 <seco> so this is something bitcoin should also, and i find printable textformat of private addresses VERY useful
478 2012-04-18 19:36:34 <seco> just my 2cents
479 2012-04-18 19:36:36 <sipa> will you make a backup after every transaction?
480 2012-04-18 19:36:39 <sipa> to paper?
481 2012-04-18 19:37:16 <sipa> just storing addresses/keys is not enough to prevent money loss, if clients for example sure different types of transactions built from them
482 2012-04-18 19:37:19 <forrestv> the solution is obvious: implement some kind of scripting language and make "wallets" just code that, when executed, generates a (possibly infinite) list of private keys
483 2012-04-18 19:37:19 danbri has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
484 2012-04-18 19:37:24 <seco> i considered saving some coins to a special offline wallet, or 2to2 multisig address: why not removeing that address from wallet after the coins moved in and i printed it out
485 2012-04-18 19:38:08 pusle has quit ()
486 2012-04-18 19:38:10 <sipa> forrestv: that's the keys part; what about how transactions are created and stored, or marked spent?
487 2012-04-18 19:38:25 <sipa> what if there is specific logic necessary to detect which outputs are change or not
488 2012-04-18 19:38:47 <sipa> armory uses a heuristic for this, that depends on its deterministic key generation scheme
489 2012-04-18 19:38:58 <gavinandresen> that's easy, just make the scripting language c++ and have the user download an executable that... oh, wait.
490 2012-04-18 19:39:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: bingo :)
491 2012-04-18 19:39:14 <seco> xD
492 2012-04-18 19:39:17 <forrestv> hehe
493 2012-04-18 19:39:39 <sipa> my take on this: do not try to make clients agree on what a wallet is; only try to make a common interchange format that can be exported to and imported from
494 2012-04-18 19:40:50 <forrestv> my (more serious) recommendation: nobody here is a stranger to JSON
495 2012-04-18 19:40:52 <seco> just wanted to drag this definition to a "wallet", and the other one as "satoshiwallet"- , or "armorywallet"-file: in regards of the users
496 2012-04-18 19:40:54 <gavinandresen> yup.  If you want to move your bitcoins from one wallet to another, use the "send" button.  If you have a well-known bitcoin address... well, we should move away from "well known bitcoin addresses" anyway
497 2012-04-18 19:41:32 <sipa> gavinandresen: right! most bitcoin clients have this incredibly useful function that allows them to transfer money between them!
498 2012-04-18 19:42:17 danbri has joined
499 2012-04-18 19:42:19 <gavinandresen> ... and there's a nifty interchange format for them, too!  It even has a little scripting language in it!
500 2012-04-18 19:42:32 <sipa> no way?!
501 2012-04-18 19:42:37 <gavinandresen> totally!
502 2012-04-18 19:42:44 <sipa> awesome dude
503 2012-04-18 19:44:45 <seco> just in case i didnt get you right: moveing coins "offline" by transfer of private address in printable way, i still regard as a valid use case
504 2012-04-18 19:45:34 <sipa> me too; but that's very different from compatibility between entire wallets
505 2012-04-18 19:46:03 <seco> it gets important if someone wants to forbid bitcoin-communication: to transfer them via mail or such
506 2012-04-18 19:46:47 <gavinandresen> transfer bitcoins via mail?  You should do that by creating a transaction and then sending the transaction....
507 2012-04-18 19:47:00 <gavinandresen> private keys should remain private, when at all possible.
508 2012-04-18 19:48:16 <seco> that has the same purpose yes :)
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511 2012-04-18 19:56:07 * seco votes for "Create ASCII armored Offline tx"- and "Import ASCII armored Offline tx"-Buttons with printerfriendly output :)
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516 2012-04-18 20:17:56 <ciscoftw> how exactly does 'long polling' increase efficiency? again, it totally makes sense to send a 'new work pushed' when the block is solved, but why do pools send them alot more often?
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518 2012-04-18 20:21:16 <[Tycho]> ciscoftw: some pools do this for "merged mining"
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520 2012-04-18 20:23:37 <ciscoftw> when i pool mine i do it via bitclockers and they dont mine for namecoins
521 2012-04-18 20:24:26 <ciscoftw> there has to be some performance/efficiency reason for sending LP's (when the current block is still valid).
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524 2012-04-18 20:40:26 <davout_> ciscoftw: your current work is invalidated each time a pool includes a new TX in its currently mined block
525 2012-04-18 20:40:26 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
526 2012-04-18 20:40:33 <luke-jr> davout_: not true
527 2012-04-18 20:40:47 <davout_> doesn't the merkle root change ?
528 2012-04-18 20:40:58 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: pools send new work for a variety of reasons
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532 2012-04-18 20:41:03 <luke-jr> davout_: that doesn't mean the old work is invalid
533 2012-04-18 20:41:25 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: pushpool has a notorious memory leak unless you LP often
534 2012-04-18 20:42:28 <davout> luke-jr: if a pool includes a tx in its collection, and immediately receives a solved chunk of work that was based on an outdated merkle root, how can the pool see that the solution is valid?
535 2012-04-18 20:42:31 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: and if there's a big txn fee, a pool might want to LP it asap
536 2012-04-18 20:42:51 <luke-jr> davout: every miner has a unique merkle root in the first place
537 2012-04-18 20:43:08 <luke-jr> davout: pools keep a hashtable of issued merkleroots
538 2012-04-18 20:43:38 <davout> luke-jr: interesting, i guess you're the pool operator here, heh
539 2012-04-18 20:43:57 <davout> luke-jr: is it true for all pools?
540 2012-04-18 20:44:14 <luke-jr> davout: it's impossible to run a pool without some kind of merkletree lookup
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542 2012-04-18 20:44:24 <luke-jr> davout: because every worker *needs* a unique merkleroot
543 2012-04-18 20:44:29 <davout> luke-jr: i guess my pool operation knowledge is fairly limited
544 2012-04-18 20:44:34 <luke-jr> a single merkleroot is only good for 4 GH/s
545 2012-04-18 20:44:58 <davout> luke-jr: i guess that's true for your pool, where AFAIK rewards are paid directly in the coinbase tx, right ?
546 2012-04-18 20:45:14 <luke-jr> davout: that's true in general. there are 2^32 nonces to try each second.
547 2012-04-18 20:45:23 <davout> luke-jr: but how is that necessary for pools who have a regular coinbase that gets split afterwards
548 2012-04-18 20:45:24 <davout> ?
549 2012-04-18 20:45:43 <luke-jr> davout: there's still only 2^32 nonces per merkleroot per second… that's 4 GH/s
550 2012-04-18 20:45:47 <Cory> luke-jr: So some people mining with more than 4 GH/s need to take that into consideration?
551 2012-04-18 20:45:48 <davout> yep
552 2012-04-18 20:45:51 <davout> makes sense
553 2012-04-18 20:45:55 <luke-jr> Cory: yes
554 2012-04-18 20:46:00 <Cory> Cool!
555 2012-04-18 20:46:14 <luke-jr> Cory: cgminer is notoriously bad about it… it gets a new work for every thread aggressively
556 2012-04-18 20:46:33 <Cory> Ah
557 2012-04-18 20:49:36 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 1124 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1124>
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561 2012-04-18 21:05:29 <ciscoftw> luke-jr: thanks for leading this discussion. I guess the answer is because at 4GH/sec an entire merkle root is exhausted, which leads to an LP. Not sure what daveout is talking about regarding the tx's, i thought all tx's were 'cached' by network until block was solved at which all tx's are hashed to block (included). tx broadcast to network doesnt effect current efforts to solve hash for
562 2012-04-18 21:05:29 <ciscoftw> valid block does it?
563 2012-04-18 21:05:47 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: … no
564 2012-04-18 21:06:23 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: you're misunderstanding so much, I don't know where to begin :/
565 2012-04-18 21:07:06 <ciscoftw> 1.) do tx's dynamically effect how a block is solved?
566 2012-04-18 21:08:11 <gmaxwell> 1. Maybe.
567 2012-04-18 21:09:17 <ciscoftw> does the tx fee apply to my question
568 2012-04-18 21:09:18 <gmaxwell> If you wish to include it, you need to update the merkel root, but you're not required to include it. Many pools don't LP for transasction, but it's not unwise to so do (imagine missing a 50btc fee transaction because of this).. Though obviously you'd not want to LP for every single one.
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570 2012-04-18 21:09:51 <ciscoftw> thanx, but most (almost all tx fees) are super small
571 2012-04-18 21:10:15 <luke-jr> my pool doesn't LP for fees.
572 2012-04-18 21:10:19 <gmaxwell> Right. Most are zero in fact.. sometimes there are larger ones for ??? who knows what purpose. :)
573 2012-04-18 21:10:23 <luke-jr> it does LP for network health.
574 2012-04-18 21:10:51 <luke-jr> when Eligius sees a new block, it sends out a longpoll immediately with no transactions in it
575 2012-04-18 21:10:54 <gmaxwell> and likewise, if it's been an hour since the last block, it would kinda suck to miss the last hour of txn even if they were all free :)
576 2012-04-18 21:11:05 <luke-jr> when it's done calculating the new transaction merkletree, it sends another LP with it populated
577 2012-04-18 21:11:22 <ciscoftw> ummmm, thanx gmaxwell -good explaination
578 2012-04-18 21:11:28 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: well, I've never heard of jobs being valid more than 2 minutes :P
579 2012-04-18 21:11:45 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: fair enough, but it could be done
580 2012-04-18 21:14:01 <ciscoftw> so another reason to LP would be the completion of a single merkle root by your cluster, in addition to maximizing tx fee collection (as explained above)
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582 2012-04-18 21:15:48 <luke-jr> … no
583 2012-04-18 21:15:56 <luke-jr> every job has a unique merkle root
584 2012-04-18 21:16:08 <luke-jr> and they're never complete, just expired.
585 2012-04-18 21:16:18 <ciscoftw> job being a node?
586 2012-04-18 21:16:24 <luke-jr> ciscoftw: yes
587 2012-04-18 21:16:43 <luke-jr> if you have a 4 GH/s FPGA mining rig, you get a new job every minute or so
588 2012-04-18 21:17:07 <luke-jr> the getwork protocol can't scale to slower speeds sanely, so you get 4 GH/s worth of work with each request
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590 2012-04-18 21:19:56 <ciscoftw> the 'midstate' data in a getwork request would be the same until that merkle root has expired (bitcoind)
591 2012-04-18 21:20:27 <luke-jr> 'midstate' is deprecated
592 2012-04-18 21:20:31 <luke-jr> and will be removed eventually
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611 2012-04-18 22:10:47 <tcatm> It's really scary when using the bitcoin-qt client with an old backup of a wallet seeing old transactions appear with very recent timestamps. For a second, I thought someone might have managed to get one of my private keys.
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