1 2012-04-23 00:03:11 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 1141 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1141>
  2 2012-04-23 00:04:43 <sipa> phantomcircuit: ^ you may be interested in that
  3 2012-04-23 00:08:19 <phantomcircuit> would be if i was slightly less busy :)
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 13 2012-04-23 00:48:54 <Joric> http://newcdn.flamehaus.com/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf valve's handbook for new employees
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 20 2012-04-23 01:00:44 <Karmaon> lorum ipsum
 21 2012-04-23 01:02:03 <vragnaroda> Grr.
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 23 2012-04-23 01:03:25 <deoxxa> lol lorum
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 27 2012-04-23 01:09:34 <Mad7Scientist> are you talking about BTCGuild copumpkin [Tycho] gmaxwell? They HAD to be cheating. like 200:1 odds they were.
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 32 2012-04-23 01:10:25 <Mad7Scientist> OVer a 5 day span 200:1 odds
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 34 2012-04-23 01:11:09 <Mad7Scientist> But there were even more strange things after that including positive luck they threw in to throw people off by diverting mining power in from other pools they own and if you throw that in it probably pushes the odds well over 1000 to 1
 35 2012-04-23 01:11:57 <Mad7Scientist> <[Tycho]> It was surprising to me, but now I know: people don't care about anything.
 36 2012-04-23 01:12:02 <Mad7Scientist> There you go right there
 37 2012-04-23 01:12:18 <sipa> many care about money
 38 2012-04-23 01:12:29 <sipa> in particular on the short term
 39 2012-04-23 01:19:36 <gmaxwell> They own other pools and they diverted hashpower? got a link? sounds interesting.
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114 2012-04-23 04:19:02 <thunderchao> good evening, all
115 2012-04-23 04:20:05 <thunderchao> i had a question about upgrading, since i've never done that before with bitcoin. do i just reinstall over the current version?
116 2012-04-23 04:20:22 <setkeh> hey guys im trying to get mtgox data using hook.io using the video as an example but i keen running in to this issue http://screenshots.setkeh.com/screenshot-04.23.12-14.17.47.png any idea's ??
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118 2012-04-23 04:22:35 <BlueMatt> #mtgox ?
119 2012-04-23 04:23:22 <setkeh> ok
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208 2012-04-23 06:08:22 <Cory> EXCEPTION: 11DbException
209 2012-04-23 06:08:22 <Cory> Db::open: Invalid argument
210 2012-04-23 06:08:26 <Cory> Is that significant?
211 2012-04-23 06:08:40 <Cory> I think Windows deleted some stuff.
212 2012-04-23 06:09:13 <wumpus> yes, they could
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269 2012-04-23 08:59:43 <setkeh> Hey guys im trying to setup hook.io and hook.io-mtgox to work like the in the video but i keep running into these issues http://screenshots.setkeh.com/screenshot-04.23.12-18.48.27.png any ideas ?? Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD5ljtNK72U and the mtgox hookio http://github.com/cronopio/hook.io-mtgox
270 2012-04-23 09:49:27 <DiabloD3> ;;bc,gen 85000000
271 2012-04-23 09:49:28 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 85000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1577913.4856767 , is 54.1825728253 BTC per day and 2.25760720105 BTC per hour.
272 2012-04-23 09:50:10 <DiabloD3> !ticker
273 2012-04-23 09:50:10 <gribble> Best bid: 5.14996, Best ask: 5.16889, Bid-ask spread: 0.01893, Last trade: 5.15, 24 hour volume: 35375, 24 hour low: 5.101, 24 hour high: 5.25
274 2012-04-23 09:50:19 <DiabloD3> ;;bc,calc 5.14 * 54.18
275 2012-04-23 09:50:19 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5.14 * 54.18 Khps, given current difficulty of 1577913.4856767 , is 771 years, 35 weeks, 1 day, 7 hours, 19 minutes, and 2 seconds
276 2012-04-23 09:50:22 <DiabloD3> err
277 2012-04-23 09:50:24 <DiabloD3> ;;calc 5.14 * 54.18
278 2012-04-23 09:50:24 <gribble> 278.4852
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336 2012-04-23 13:10:04 <ovidiusoft> anyone else experiencing random crashes with 0.6.0? (linux, daemon mode)
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338 2012-04-23 13:10:31 <ovidiusoft> once in a while such a crash will corrupt the data files and then bitcoind will not start anymore
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345 2012-04-23 13:26:50 <luke-jr> ovidiusoft: addr.dat?
346 2012-04-23 13:27:21 <abortretry> hello.... i am starting to understand and reading through the bitcoin client source. i have an experimental project of creating a new currency. and i am puzzled how to speed up creating the genesis block. can someone give me a helping hand
347 2012-04-23 13:27:37 <ovidiusoft> luke-jr: i think so, yes
348 2012-04-23 13:27:48 <ovidiusoft> i deletec the corefile by mistake
349 2012-04-23 13:28:15 <ovidiusoft> i'll post a trace if it crashes again
350 2012-04-23 13:29:06 <ovidiusoft> the only thing that seems extraordinary in my setup is the large number of concurrent connections, limit is 500 and i usually have over 200
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361 2012-04-23 14:01:25 <hazek> can someone help me please
362 2012-04-23 14:01:32 <hazek> is this statement correct:
363 2012-04-23 14:01:49 <hazek> valid bitcoin txs must be logged into the blockchain
364 2012-04-23 14:02:11 <helo> false
365 2012-04-23 14:02:21 <helo> there are two principles: validity and confirmatin
366 2012-04-23 14:02:52 <hazek> ah
367 2012-04-23 14:02:57 <helo> confirmation is achieved by entry into the blockchain.
368 2012-04-23 14:03:03 <hazek> so being logged has nothing to do with validity
369 2012-04-23 14:03:41 <hazek> if I were to list txs rules in Bitcoin, would these be it:
370 2012-04-23 14:03:46 <hazek> -no double spending
371 2012-04-23 14:03:51 <hazek> -irreversible
372 2012-04-23 14:03:54 <helo> right... validity confirms that the creator of the transaction has control of the coin being sent, and that it has not been sent thus far
373 2012-04-23 14:04:03 <hazek> -no blocking
374 2012-04-23 14:04:21 <hazek> -must have a valid cryptographic digital signature
375 2012-04-23 14:04:31 <hazek> -must be addressed to a valid address
376 2012-04-23 14:04:36 <hazek> am I forgetting soemthing?
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378 2012-04-23 14:05:11 <luke-jr> hazek: txns don't need to be to an address
379 2012-04-23 14:05:21 <hazek> no?
380 2012-04-23 14:05:51 <luke-jr> nor are they irrevesible or doublespend-free until they are confirmed at depth 6
381 2012-04-23 14:05:55 <hazek> I don't mean strictly the code rules
382 2012-04-23 14:05:57 <hazek> I mean practically
383 2012-04-23 14:07:00 <hazek> hmmmm
384 2012-04-23 14:07:41 <hazek> I see I need to do some more thinking about this
385 2012-04-23 14:07:53 <hazek> (i'm trying to write a guide for laypeople)
386 2012-04-23 14:08:58 <hazek> maybe listing rules isn't the best approach to explaning how transactions work in bitcoin
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396 2012-04-23 14:12:55 <helo> the rules in the code result in some emergent properties that allow the system to function as a currency
397 2012-04-23 14:14:01 <hazek> right right
398 2012-04-23 14:14:03 <hazek> ty guys
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450 2012-04-23 17:30:03 <Diapolo> BlueMatt: a little ping ;)?
451 2012-04-23 17:30:07 <Diapolo> and hello all
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472 2012-04-23 18:24:30 <jgarzik> sipa, tcatm, gmaxwell: do we really need a 0.6.1 release?  why not go straight to 0.7...
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483 2012-04-23 18:29:26 <paulo_> how does a bitcoin address get correlated with a public key?
484 2012-04-23 18:29:47 <luke-jr> it doesn't.
485 2012-04-23 18:29:59 <paulo_> or does a transaction contain both public key and address?
486 2012-04-23 18:29:59 <luke-jr> what exactly do you mean?
487 2012-04-23 18:30:07 <sipa> that
488 2012-04-23 18:30:15 <luke-jr> to send from an address, you need to provide the pubkey
489 2012-04-23 18:30:29 <[Tycho]> Hello, devs :)
490 2012-04-23 18:30:51 <paulo_> so, does a transaction contain both public key and address?
491 2012-04-23 18:31:19 <paulo_> i mean the sending address
492 2012-04-23 18:31:19 <sipa> paulo_: yes
493 2012-04-23 18:31:33 <sipa> transaction outputs contain an address
494 2012-04-23 18:31:41 <sipa> transaction inputs contains a signature + public key
495 2012-04-23 18:31:56 <sipa> the signature must be valid for the given public key, and the public key must hash to the address
496 2012-04-23 18:34:31 <sipa> jgarzik: hmm, i believe the current code is better than 0.6.0 and probably doesn't take long to go from rc to final
497 2012-04-23 18:34:56 <sipa> while 0.7.0 would take longer
498 2012-04-23 18:35:54 <sipa> now, BlueMatt closed cblockstore (pity...), so unless there's some changes there soon, that makes the changes for 0.7.0 smaller
499 2012-04-23 18:36:02 <luke-jr> imo, should be merged for 0.6.1: 936, 1032, 1090, 917, 1002, 1119, 1133, 1134, 1135, 1136, 1139; maybe 1128
500 2012-04-23 18:36:39 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Right now we're pretty ripe for a bunch of cleanups and fixes.  And we don't have new major features in shipping ready state yet.
501 2012-04-23 18:37:08 <paulo_> another question
502 2012-04-23 18:37:18 <gmaxwell> Also, it seems like simply churning out more releases get more people ot upgrade to the improved versions we already have out.
503 2012-04-23 18:37:21 <paulo_> how do you prevent resending of a transaction?
504 2012-04-23 18:37:32 <sipa> paulo_: why would you want to prevent that?
505 2012-04-23 18:38:05 <sipa> paulo_: or do you mean how to prevent double spending (i.e., another transaction but with the same input)
506 2012-04-23 18:38:31 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: besides the time it takes to spin a release, is there any other reason NOT to do a 0.6.1rc1 in the next day or two?
507 2012-04-23 18:38:45 <paulo_> no, the exact same transaction.
508 2012-04-23 18:38:46 <jgarzik> works for me...
509 2012-04-23 18:38:58 <sipa> paulo_: no need to prevent that
510 2012-04-23 18:39:22 <paulo_> I mean, I can easily resend a transaction, since it still has the same signatures
511 2012-04-23 18:39:36 <sipa> paulo_: yes, so?
512 2012-04-23 18:40:01 <sipa> paulo_: if others already have it in their memory pools or blockchain, they ignore it
513 2012-04-23 18:40:17 <sipa> if the receiver already has it in his wallet, nothing changes
514 2012-04-23 18:40:52 hazek has quit (Quit: Page closed)
515 2012-04-23 18:41:17 <paulo_> sipa: but what if I really do want to make the same transaction?
516 2012-04-23 18:41:24 <paulo_> same inputs and outputs
517 2012-04-23 18:41:58 <sipa> paulo_: not sure what you're trying to do or trying to get at
518 2012-04-23 18:42:11 <sipa> the same transaction is the same transaction
519 2012-04-23 18:43:27 <paulo_> how will you differentiate two transactions with the exact same amount, inputs, and outputs?
520 2012-04-23 18:43:56 <sipa> paulo_: if they are exactly the same, it's just the same transaction; if they're not exactly the same, it's a double spend
521 2012-04-23 18:44:45 <paulo_> what does "not exactly the same" mean?
522 2012-04-23 18:44:52 <sipa> paulo_: not byte for byte the same
523 2012-04-23 18:45:09 <paulo_> what would differentiate them?
524 2012-04-23 18:45:11 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I agree on: #1090, #1002
525 2012-04-23 18:45:17 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ^^
526 2012-04-23 18:45:22 <paulo_> a timestamp?
527 2012-04-23 18:45:25 <sipa> paulo_: for example ECDSA signatures are not deterministic, so you could have the same in- and outputs, but different signatures
528 2012-04-23 18:45:35 <sipa> paulo_: or the order of inputs could differ
529 2012-04-23 18:45:40 <jgarzik> the other stuff luke-jr mentioned is either (a) already closed or (b) under discussion or (c) typical luke-jr-is-only-audience stuff
530 2012-04-23 18:46:06 <sipa> ACK 936, but for 0.7.0
531 2012-04-23 18:46:15 <paulo_> non-deterministic signatures... interesting
532 2012-04-23 18:46:19 * jgarzik nods -- I was speaking only about 0.6.1
533 2012-04-23 18:46:35 <jgarzik> some other stuff on luke-jr's list will probably be ready by 0.7
534 2012-04-23 18:46:41 <gavinandresen> 1090: ACK
535 2012-04-23 18:47:24 <sipa> i don't comment to much on the GUI things; i assume they will get merged when they are ready
536 2012-04-23 18:47:38 <luke-jr> 1032 needs some time for Diapolo to go through the translations
537 2012-04-23 18:48:17 <jgarzik> sipa: same here
538 2012-04-23 18:48:38 * jgarzik wants to see HTTP 1.1 & IPv6 for 0.7 ;-)
539 2012-04-23 18:48:45 <gavinandresen> 1002: ok. URI handling doesn't work for the vast majority of our users now anyway....
540 2012-04-23 18:49:10 <gavinandresen> I tagges 1101 for 0.6.1
541 2012-04-23 18:49:21 <paulo_> beats RSA for this purpose.
542 2012-04-23 18:49:49 <luke-jr> jgarzik: what's the problem with 917 and 1139?
543 2012-04-23 18:49:57 * jgarzik runs: git shortlog --no-merges v0.6.0..
544 2012-04-23 18:50:05 <gavinandresen> 917 is a new feature
545 2012-04-23 18:50:38 <gavinandresen> 1139 will require new translations, which is more trouble than it is worth IMHO
546 2012-04-23 18:50:52 <jgarzik> 917 needs ACKs
547 2012-04-23 18:51:03 <jgarzik> what gavinandresen said, on 1139
548 2012-04-23 18:51:07 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: well, the tooltip in 1139 is just plain wrong, right now
549 2012-04-23 18:51:33 <sipa> ACK 1139
550 2012-04-23 18:51:37 <luke-jr> if it's not worth translating for 0.6.1, it should probably be removed until 0.7
551 2012-04-23 18:52:34 <sipa> how about #1119?
552 2012-04-23 18:52:50 paul0 has joined
553 2012-04-23 18:53:16 * luke-jr assumed jgarzik classified that in "under discussion"
554 2012-04-23 18:53:16 <gavinandresen> I REALLY want to pul 1119 but it scares me
555 2012-04-23 18:53:58 <sipa> yes, i understand, but i'm not sure what can be done to improve it any further
556 2012-04-23 18:54:12 <gavinandresen> Has anybody looked at subversion's bdb code?  I used subversion for years and never saw a DB_RUNRECOVERY or other error....
557 2012-04-23 18:54:22 <jgarzik> what gavinandresen said, on 1119 ;-)
558 2012-04-23 18:54:25 <jgarzik> makes me nervous
559 2012-04-23 18:54:43 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: IIRC, Subversion stopped using BDB a long time ago?
560 2012-04-23 18:56:15 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yes, back when it stopped losing data! :(
561 2012-04-23 18:56:46 <luke-jr> LOL
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565 2012-04-23 18:57:34 <gmaxwell> I've been quiet w/ acks lately because lots of the recent pulls felt like they needed testing and I juts haven't had time the last couple weeks. :-/ (I'm very glad to have seen luke objdump/diffing the asm on changes that shouldn't have changed the code)
566 2012-04-23 18:57:34 <sipa> there's still a bdb directory in the latest source code
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569 2012-04-23 19:01:20 <sipa> gavinandresen: SVN doesn't call lsn_reset anywhere, though
570 2012-04-23 19:01:32 <gavinandresen> sipa: very interesting...
571 2012-04-23 19:01:35 <sipa> but they assume their database directory untouchable by the outside world
572 2012-04-23 19:01:46 <sipa> as we should too, if it weren't for wallet files in it
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574 2012-04-23 19:03:13 * sipa believes interrupted lsn_reset calls are responsible for more data corruption than anything else
575 2012-04-23 19:03:37 <gavinandresen> I think you're right.
576 2012-04-23 19:04:00 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: i've seen svn eat it's bdb backend
577 2012-04-23 19:04:01 <jrmithdobbs> fwiw
578 2012-04-23 19:04:26 <jrmithdobbs> all caused by bugs in svn though, as far as I can remember
579 2012-04-23 19:04:37 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: sure, with enough customers you'll see EVERYTHING eventually, including "cosmic ray changed exactly the wrong bit(s)"
580 2012-04-23 19:04:42 <jrmithdobbs> especially <=1.5 had lots of weird binary corruption stuff that could happen in certain instances
581 2012-04-23 19:04:56 <gavinandresen> good thing we're not using <= 1.5
582 2012-04-23 19:05:13 <sipa> i didn't know we were still using SVN at all?
583 2012-04-23 19:05:25 <jrmithdobbs> well, i haven't had to touch an svn repo since we upgraded that one to 1.6 (and I left the company like 3 months later)
584 2012-04-23 19:05:32 <jrmithdobbs> I have no idea the current state/stability of svn ;p
585 2012-04-23 19:05:44 <gavinandresen> (sorry, right, svn 1.5 not bdb 1.5....)
586 2012-04-23 19:05:52 <jrmithdobbs> (other than the obvious: "Why are you using svn in 2012?! lol" comment ...)
587 2012-04-23 19:05:57 <gavinandresen> back in half hour or so....
588 2012-04-23 19:07:00 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: i was surprised to learn that subversion didn't migrate its repository to git yet ;)
589 2012-04-23 19:07:09 <gmaxwell> haha
590 2012-04-23 19:07:25 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: equally surprised the merc guys haven't either ;p
591 2012-04-23 19:07:34 <sipa> Revision: 1329369
592 2012-04-23 19:07:37 <sipa> ... wow
593 2012-04-23 19:07:56 <gmaxwell> In any case, if we split the wallet and rest of the enviroment, might we make this stuff safer? (e.g. other stuff being unclean not breaking the wallet)
594 2012-04-23 19:09:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: regarding #1119?
595 2012-04-23 19:09:21 <jrmithdobbs> 1119 scares me too fwiw
596 2012-04-23 19:09:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, in particular, but also generally. E.g. I worry that people with unclean databases swapping around wallet files will get corrupted.
597 2012-04-23 19:10:08 <sipa> it shouldn't - the only thing that changes is this lsn_reset call; that call is not part of normal operation, it's only necessary for moving files in and out of environments
598 2012-04-23 19:10:13 <gmaxwell> Esp since a lot of users now kill the process due to slow shutdowns.
599 2012-04-23 19:10:27 <jrmithdobbs> eww, why would you do that? it's a bdb app
600 2012-04-23 19:10:30 <jrmithdobbs> that's asking for trouble
601 2012-04-23 19:10:53 <gmaxwell> Because we don't have coincontrol. Also to test backups.
602 2012-04-23 19:11:04 <jrmithdobbs> coincontrol?
603 2012-04-23 19:11:07 <sipa> yes, wallet files are being moved around
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605 2012-04-23 19:11:16 <sipa> so there is an lsn_reset on wallet files
606 2012-04-23 19:11:37 <sipa> but there is absolutely no need for such a call on the block database
607 2012-04-23 19:11:56 <sipa> unless you do funky stuff like resetting block databases for particular test cases
608 2012-04-23 19:11:57 [Tycho] has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
609 2012-04-23 19:12:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: have you seen how fast shutdown is without the lsn_reset call?
610 2012-04-23 19:13:08 <sipa> (unless you shutdown right in the middle of an initial block chain sync)
611 2012-04-23 19:13:10 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: ironically, svn still has features missing from all DVCS
612 2012-04-23 19:15:57 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: coin control = feature that lets you control which inputs you're using in transactions.
613 2012-04-23 19:17:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: right, but that was my point— if we split the enviroment perhaps it will still be fast if we're just lsn resetting on the wallet.
614 2012-04-23 19:18:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: lsn resets are already per file
615 2012-04-23 19:18:26 <sipa> nothing will change by moving the wallet out of it (though we absolutely should do so for other reasons)
616 2012-04-23 19:18:29 <gmaxwell> oh— for some reason I thought it was for the whole enviroment. Okay, so why is it slow then?
617 2012-04-23 19:18:47 <sipa> it must traverse the entire database file
618 2012-04-23 19:18:54 <sipa> large database file, slow lsn_reset
619 2012-04-23 19:19:08 macet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
620 2012-04-23 19:19:14 <sipa> read the comments on the pull request
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622 2012-04-23 19:21:11 <sipa> WOAH https://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=874276&tstart=0#3489748
623 2012-04-23 19:21:38 <sipa> there seems to be a flag DB_AM_NOT_DURABLE with removes LSNs altogether
624 2012-04-23 19:21:52 <sipa> we don't care about durability of the blockchain database
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634 2012-04-23 19:38:04 <gavinandresen> sipa:  DB_TXN_NOT_DURABLE  looks like a very good idea for blkindex.dat
635 2012-04-23 19:38:07 mac-mini has joined
636 2012-04-23 19:38:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: i remember we looked at it before
637 2012-04-23 19:38:28 machine1 has joined
638 2012-04-23 19:38:41 <sipa> This means that updates of this database exhibit the ACI (atomicity, consistency, and isolation) properties, but not D (durability); that is, database integrity will be maintained, but if the application or system fails, integrity will not persist. The database file must be verified and/or restored from backup after a failure.
639 2012-04-23 19:39:15 <sipa> my question is: what do they mean by integrity?
640 2012-04-23 19:40:14 <sipa> if they mean: some committed transactions will be in the database, and some will not; that's perfect
641 2012-04-23 19:40:20 <gavinandresen> yup
642 2012-04-23 19:40:34 <sipa> if they mean: the database may be in an arbitrary state; that's terrible
643 2012-04-23 19:41:58 <gavinandresen> The question for me is:  how terrible?  If it only happens when you're writing to blkindex.dat and the drive loses power halfway through a write, that's not so terrible.
644 2012-04-23 19:42:39 <gavinandresen> ... especially if the result is an error on subsequent startup (a corrupted-but-reads-without-an-error would be worse)
645 2012-04-23 19:43:27 <sipa> interesting: i kill -9'd while downloading the block database and while using DB_TXN_NOT_DURABLE
646 2012-04-23 19:43:38 <sipa> result: not a single block was in the file
647 2012-04-23 19:43:49 <sipa> and no error either
648 2012-04-23 19:44:36 <sipa> but it's shutting down extremely quickly
649 2012-04-23 19:44:54 <sipa> even in the middle of block chain database download
650 2012-04-23 19:44:57 <gavinandresen> clean shutdown with DB_TXN_NOT_DURABLE does the right thing I assume?
651 2012-04-23 19:45:03 <sipa> of course
652 2012-04-23 19:45:35 <gavinandresen> I'd be OK with "dirty shutdown means you lose blockchain download progress"
653 2012-04-23 19:45:44 <sipa> same
654 2012-04-23 19:46:28 <gavinandresen> ... and "power outage at exactly the wrong time means you might have to delete blkindex.dat and database/* and re-download the whole chain"
655 2012-04-23 19:47:23 <sipa> ok, another kill -9, and now i get EXCEPTION: 11DbException
656 2012-04-23 19:47:23 <sipa> Db::get: DB_PAGE_NOTFOUND: Requested page not found
657 2012-04-23 19:47:25 <sipa> bitcoin in AppInit()
658 2012-04-23 19:47:45 machine1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
659 2012-04-23 19:50:42 <sipa> not sure i like that...
660 2012-04-23 19:51:30 <gavinandresen> yeah, what happened to the C in ACI....
661 2012-04-23 19:52:55 <sipa> my preference is just no lsn_reset for blkindex.dat
662 2012-04-23 19:53:27 machine1 has joined
663 2012-04-23 19:53:33 <sipa> DN_TXN_NOT_DURABLE is certainly faster and easier, but will likely result in many more people "meh, the program just doesn't start anymore... bleh"
664 2012-04-23 19:54:48 <gavinandresen> Sigh.  We aught to do a much better job of catching errors and helping users recover
665 2012-04-23 20:01:31 <sipa> also, i wonder why we don't use DB_PRIVATE
666 2012-04-23 20:01:56 <sipa> that would prevent some interprocess locking issues like the one we had with rewriting addr.dat, i assume
667 2012-04-23 20:02:11 machine1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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669 2012-04-23 20:02:29 <gavinandresen> if I recall, we did once DB_PRIVATE once upon a time, I don't remember why that was changed
670 2012-04-23 20:03:14 <sipa> why does github have no "search code history" function? :)
671 2012-04-23 20:03:19 ThomasV has joined
672 2012-04-23 20:03:40 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: doesn't DB_PRIVATE lock it to a thread?
673 2012-04-23 20:03:57 <sipa> yes
674 2012-04-23 20:04:05 <jrmithdobbs> that's probably why
675 2012-04-23 20:04:20 <gavinandresen> commit c8ad9b83
676 2012-04-23 20:04:32 <gavinandresen> "dropped DB_PRIVATE from dbenv.open"  (satoshi)
677 2012-04-23 20:05:08 <sipa> helpful commit messages :)
678 2012-04-23 20:06:09 <jrmithdobbs> bet it was done to allow updating addr.dat from the connection threads
679 2012-04-23 20:06:24 <gavinandresen> I'm about to disappear, I'm meeting with Dries (Mr. Drupal) again this evening
680 2012-04-23 20:06:40 <jrmithdobbs> (as in, eventually causing the problem you just mentioned sipa)
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689 2012-04-23 20:29:38 <Diapolo> sipa: I made some progress with my approach and was able to now write to the blkindex.dat DB
690 2012-04-23 20:32:28 giftfrosch has joined
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698 2012-04-23 21:07:08 <sipa> Diapolo: link?
699 2012-04-23 21:07:12 paraipan_ has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
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702 2012-04-23 21:08:35 <Diapolo> sipa: https://github.com/Diapolo/bitcoin/commit/95a4056c8b683698f955f39cacdd11dc7627b12b
703 2012-04-23 21:10:03 <Diapolo> I added 2 new functions in CTxDB that read / write the file-pointer position and removed the code I had in for creating that extra file
704 2012-04-23 21:11:05 <Diapolo> seems like I didn't add db.cpp?
705 2012-04-23 21:11:06 <Diapolo> lol
706 2012-04-23 21:11:34 <sipa> yes
707 2012-04-23 21:12:01 <sipa> Diapolo: you'll want a file pointer per block file
708 2012-04-23 21:12:11 <sipa> not just a global one
709 2012-04-23 21:14:02 <Diapolo> sipa: yes currently it only works for blk0001.dat
710 2012-04-23 21:15:19 <Diapolo> but I'm happy I figured out that db stuff even if it's perhaps unoptimized
711 2012-04-23 21:15:24 <Diapolo> https://github.com/Diapolo/bitcoin/commit/37e85743d705b94932afb716173f9a7c6e22161c
712 2012-04-23 21:18:04 <Diapolo> sipa: fileBlockchain is global but it can be re-used for other files, too ... I
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714 2012-04-23 21:18:24 <Diapolo> 'I'm not sure if I understood the "per block file"
715 2012-04-23 21:20:05 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: there will be a blk0002.dat once blk0001.dat becomes to large (to avoid FS maximum file size limitations)
716 2012-04-23 21:20:20 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
717 2012-04-23 21:20:35 <gmaxwell> (for some reason I was thinking the threshold was at 1g, but I guess not)
718 2012-04-23 21:20:39 <makomk> Well, there should be a blk0002.dat. Has that code been tested?
719 2012-04-23 21:20:47 <sipa> makomk: nope
720 2012-04-23 21:20:55 <Diapolo> and they have then to be open simultaneously?
721 2012-04-23 21:21:01 <sipa> yes
722 2012-04-23 21:21:23 <Diapolo> alright, at least there is a little time left for me to mature my experiment ^^
723 2012-04-23 21:21:31 <makomk> I think some SolidCoin nodes got up to 16 GB or more without creating a blk0002.dat, though obviously that's a modified version of the Bitcoin code.
724 2012-04-23 21:21:45 <sipa> haha
725 2012-04-23 21:21:49 <gmaxwell> what .. were you doing to those poor solidcoin nodes?
726 2012-04-23 21:22:42 <makomk> I'm not sure any of my nodes reached that point due to insufficient Internet connectivity, but remember their block spam issues of a while ago?
727 2012-04-23 21:24:07 <Diapolo> Is there any compression going on in the blk000x.dat files currently?
728 2012-04-23 21:24:17 <sipa> Diapolo: no
729 2012-04-23 21:25:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: erp, I can't find any code to increment nFile.
730 2012-04-23 21:25:50 Slix` has joined
731 2012-04-23 21:26:55 <gmaxwell> oh there it is.
732 2012-04-23 21:27:03 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: there is an nCurrentBlockFile++ in the main.cpp
733 2012-04-23 21:27:19 <gmaxwell>         // FAT32 filesize max 4GB, fseek and ftell max 2GB, so we must stay under 2GB
734 2012-04-23 21:27:22 <gmaxwell>         if (ftell(file) < 0x7F000000 - MAX_SIZE)
735 2012-04-23 21:28:05 <Diapolo> is this code tested and working so I could take a look at how you currently handle multiple files?
736 2012-04-23 21:28:50 <gmaxwell> Well, I think that codes wrong.
737 2012-04-23 21:29:08 <gmaxwell> I think it should be - MAX_BLOCK_SIZE  not MAX_SIZE, no?
738 2012-04-23 21:29:26 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: in any case, lower the limit.. it should work. I've never tested it. You tell me!
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741 2012-04-23 21:31:13 <sipa> what was MAX_SIZE again?
742 2012-04-23 21:31:46 <makomk> Maximum size of serialized data, I think.
743 2012-04-23 21:32:18 <Diapolo> sipa said the files should be opened simultaneously, but is this true or are the opened / closed serially?
744 2012-04-23 21:32:26 <Diapolo> the == they
745 2012-04-23 21:32:48 <Diapolo> static const unsigned int MAX_SIZE = 0x02000000;
746 2012-04-23 21:33:38 <makomk> I think it closes and reopens the block file every time, actually.
747 2012-04-23 21:33:45 <Diapolo> MAX_SIZE is 32 MB then?
748 2012-04-23 21:33:45 ThomasV has quit (Client Quit)
749 2012-04-23 21:33:58 <Diapolo> makom: that's what I think too
750 2012-04-23 21:34:05 <sipa> Diapolo: they're being used simultaneously; the current code always opens and closes files
751 2012-04-23 21:34:20 <sipa> Diapolo: but you changed that, no?
752 2012-04-23 21:34:40 <Diapolo> sipa: but no 2 files are open at the same time right? talking about current code to understand how it works
753 2012-04-23 21:34:48 <sipa> no
754 2012-04-23 21:35:19 <sipa> it's just a CAutoFile being opened when something needs to be read or written
755 2012-04-23 21:35:59 <Diapolo> right and this should work with a global object of type CAutoFile/Stream or a local one, too
756 2012-04-23 21:36:31 <sipa> i meant "simultaneously" in the sense that for the processing of a single transaction multiple block files may be necessary
757 2012-04-23 21:36:56 <Diapolo> sipa: got it and that what was I thought, too
758 2012-04-23 21:37:36 <sipa> but you changed it to a global, so you'd have all files open simultaneously, i guess
759 2012-04-23 21:37:47 <sipa> not sure that's necessary though
760 2012-04-23 21:38:18 <Diapolo> the global object can be fed with the file I need I just need to re-add the code to handle multiple files
761 2012-04-23 21:38:30 <sipa> ?
762 2012-04-23 21:38:50 <Diapolo> I thought it was better performance wise to not open and close it everytime durint the block-chain download.
763 2012-04-23 21:39:05 <sipa> i doubt it matters much
764 2012-04-23 21:40:38 <gmaxwell> oh I fail at reading. yea MAX_SIZE is fine.
765 2012-04-23 21:40:59 <Diapolo> with multiple files you are perhaps right with a single one the difference is perhaps messureable
766 2012-04-23 21:41:04 <gmaxwell> (I thought it was 2000 for some reason)
767 2012-04-23 21:41:34 <Diapolo> fileBlockchain.setFile() can be used to feed the global with a new file, so that should work
768 2012-04-23 21:41:52 <kish> is there a way to run database recovery so i dont have to start from scratch?
769 2012-04-23 21:42:53 <Diapolo> sipa: is that CTxDB code I use okay or can it be made any faster / better?
770 2012-04-23 21:43:21 <Diapolo> I don't want to learn bad usage.
771 2012-04-23 21:45:56 <sipa> Diapolo: if you're only keeping one open block file around in the global var, you need synchronisation code to prevent different threads wanting to access it simultaneously
772 2012-04-23 21:46:16 splatster has joined
773 2012-04-23 21:46:19 <sipa> i guess it will always be locked by cs_main in practice
774 2012-04-23 21:47:01 <sipa> but it's bad design to keep local information in a global variable
775 2012-04-23 21:49:06 <Diapolo> it would be easy to use a local one and I have to admit I even dislike globals
776 2012-04-23 21:53:31 <Diapolo> damn it's again to late here ^^ ... I'm off bye
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795 2012-04-23 22:47:45 zooko has joined
796 2012-04-23 22:48:00 <zooko> I just posted a bounty for some Python hacking on a cool distributed storage project: https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/20#comment:13
797 2012-04-23 22:52:42 copumpkin has joined
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799 2012-04-23 22:59:56 splatster has joined
800 2012-04-23 23:13:36 xixor has joined
801 2012-04-23 23:13:37 <xixor> sup
802 2012-04-23 23:14:59 Bigpiggy01Mining has joined
803 2012-04-23 23:16:14 <xixor> sup
804 2012-04-23 23:16:32 <xixor> so, I am trying to understand bitcoin mining... what is the deal?
805 2012-04-23 23:16:46 <copumpkin> what have you read on the subject?
806 2012-04-23 23:17:54 <xixor> this article: http://www.weusecoins.com/mining-guide.php
807 2012-04-23 23:18:03 <xixor> this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Covert_.22mining.22
808 2012-04-23 23:18:19 <xixor> and this one: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_bitcoin_works
809 2012-04-23 23:18:30 <copumpkin> what specific questions have those left you?
810 2012-04-23 23:19:14 <xixor> I don't understand it at all.  So the bitcoin miners have to solve some crytopgraphic system to generate "new" bitcoins for the market?
811 2012-04-23 23:19:33 <xixor> and they are paid, in bitcoins, by some sort of central bank?
812 2012-04-23 23:19:42 <copumpkin> no central bank
813 2012-04-23 23:19:47 <copumpkin> just an agreed-upon protocol
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816 2012-04-23 23:20:11 <copumpkin> everyone agrees that if you can prove you solved a certain kind of cryptographic problem, you can give yourself more coins
817 2012-04-23 23:20:25 <gmaxwell> Gah.  (as usual)
818 2012-04-23 23:20:34 <copumpkin> no?
819 2012-04-23 23:20:40 <xixor> how does this work in an economic sense?
820 2012-04-23 23:20:52 <xixor> doesn't this just cause inflation on the currency?
821 2012-04-23 23:21:01 <copumpkin> these questions are all answered in those articles...
822 2012-04-23 23:21:07 <copumpkin> in many different ways
823 2012-04-23 23:21:13 <gmaxwell> Mining is the process of securing bitcoin transactions against reversal by computing proofs of work needed to extent the bitcoin blockchain, a database of transactions.
824 2012-04-23 23:21:23 <Eliel> xixor: that's the point. That's the only way new bitcoins come into being. It won't be forever though. The reward halves every 4 years.
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828 2012-04-23 23:21:42 <luke-jr> xixor: there's a fixed total of 21 million Bitcoins, being generated gradually
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830 2012-04-23 23:21:56 <gmaxwell> Because the original bitcoins have to come from somewhere, and we don't want something centeralized like a centeral bank— the mining process lets the miners produce a metered amount of new coins 'from thin air' as they add blocks.
831 2012-04-23 23:22:55 <gmaxwell> The software in all bitcoin nodes regulates the creation of new coins to follow a fixed program: 50 bitcoins per block halving every 210000 blocks, 2016 blocks per two weeks— resulting in a maximum of 21 million coins ever.
832 2012-04-23 23:23:03 <xixor> so the bitcoins have a planned schedule of inflation then?
833 2012-04-23 23:23:23 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
834 2012-04-23 23:23:29 <gmaxwell> So at the moment the supply is inflating by about 35%/yr, a rate that will exponentially fall over time.
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837 2012-04-23 23:23:48 <Eliel> xixor: the inflation will only be around 12% by next year.
838 2012-04-23 23:23:50 <gmaxwell> The first halving should happen sometime in decemember this year.
839 2012-04-23 23:24:05 <Eliel> and will keep dropping.
840 2012-04-23 23:24:37 <xixor> I see
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842 2012-04-23 23:24:49 <Eliel> xixor: although, if you look at bitcoin's value, it looks like it's deflating though.
843 2012-04-23 23:25:19 <xixor> Eliel: yes, of course
844 2012-04-23 23:25:20 <sipa> xixor: gmaxwell raises a good point: the purpose of mining is not currency creation, it is much more essential to the system; it's tied to currency introduction though to make it economically interesting for people to help secure the chain
845 2012-04-23 23:26:12 <xixor> what happens when all 21-million bitcoins are created?
846 2012-04-23 23:26:22 <gmaxwell> Well, and absent tying it to mining it's not clear how you could introduce currency in a decenteralized way otherwise.
847 2012-04-23 23:26:49 <xixor> this is extremely fascinating
848 2012-04-23 23:26:54 <Eliel> xixor: no more new bitcoins will be created.
849 2012-04-23 23:27:00 <DiabloD3> bitcoin is a rather uninteresting proof of work system
850 2012-04-23 23:27:09 <gmaxwell> xixor: well 21 million arises as the limit of that geometric series... technically it doesn't ever have to reach it.   But more pratically— nothing special.
851 2012-04-23 23:27:11 <sipa> xixor: everything stays exactly the same; blocks will keep being generated at the same rate as ever, they just won't introduce new currency anymore
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854 2012-04-23 23:27:38 <xixor> oh, somehow I thought blocks were bitcoins
855 2012-04-23 23:27:54 <sipa> no, blocks are lists of transactions
856 2012-04-23 23:28:02 <Eliel> xixor: the blocks are more like the entire bookkeeping of bitcoin network.
857 2012-04-23 23:28:05 <sipa> blocks also refer to a previous block, forming a chain
858 2012-04-23 23:28:09 <gmaxwell> That was basically the cause for my 'gah'.
859 2012-04-23 23:28:14 <xixor> ah, I see
860 2012-04-23 23:28:35 <xixor> well, I'd be lying if I said I understand it
861 2012-04-23 23:29:01 <Eliel> and mining exists so the whole network has a way to agree which version of bookkeeping to agree on :)
862 2012-04-23 23:29:37 <xixor> version to agree on?  hasn't the protocol already been decided?  The miners are creating the crytographic machinery to keep it honest?
863 2012-04-23 23:30:22 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs")
864 2012-04-23 23:30:25 <sipa> is there some standard STL or Boost type to represent a-or-b? (a tagged union) ?
865 2012-04-23 23:31:12 <sipa> boost::variant, it seems
866 2012-04-23 23:31:16 <Eliel> xixor: the network rules for accepting blocks keep it honest. However, mining is used to make sure everyone has the same honest bookkeeping.
867 2012-04-23 23:31:53 <gmaxwell> xixor: the key challenge in digital currency is the "double spending" problem, without it ecash would be trivial.
868 2012-04-23 23:32:05 <sipa> xixor: you can consider mining to be voting for a particular order of transactions, by your computation power
869 2012-04-23 23:32:20 <sipa> a particular order of otherwise valid transactions, by the way
870 2012-04-23 23:32:29 <gmaxwell> the double spending problem is that if I give you some digital money— whats to stop me from giving sipa the _same_ digital money, thus creating inflation.
871 2012-04-23 23:33:13 <xixor> ok
872 2012-04-23 23:33:21 <gmaxwell> The obvious way to solve double spening is to order the transactions and only consider the first one.  E.g. If I pay you digital money via a centeralized bank the bank can timestamp the payments.
873 2012-04-23 23:33:54 <gmaxwell> But thats centralized. Bitcoin solves it by having a distributed network figure out the ordering.
874 2012-04-23 23:34:35 <gmaxwell> But this is tricky to do because physical law means that spatially seperated parties will view events as happening in different orders depending on their locations.
875 2012-04-23 23:34:48 <xixor> do you have to be online to query the distributed network to make a transaction?
876 2012-04-23 23:35:11 <sipa> you want to be online when you receive a transaction, and want to be sure it's not a double spend
877 2012-04-23 23:35:17 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin solves all this by using mining as a kind of election where nodes commit to an ordering of the transactions which takes lots of computation so it can't be faked.
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879 2012-04-23 23:35:56 <xixor> very interesting
880 2012-04-23 23:35:58 <gmaxwell> xixor: you can send and recieve them offline, but you can't validate them against double spending that way. If you only trade with people you trust you can defer the announcement of your transactions.
881 2012-04-23 23:36:11 <xixor> ok
882 2012-04-23 23:36:29 <xixor> won't this type of book keeping mean that every transaction is in the open?  everyone know who bought what from whom?
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886 2012-04-23 23:36:49 <gmaxwell> ha!
887 2012-04-23 23:36:52 <Eliel> xixor: yes and no :)
888 2012-04-23 23:37:08 <gmaxwell> You're perceptive. Bitcoin uses pseudoanonymity to replace the privacy this system loses.
889 2012-04-23 23:37:34 <Eliel> xixor: bitcoin accounts look like random numbers. Unless you reveal your addresses as yours, no-one will know who owns them.
890 2012-04-23 23:37:41 <gmaxwell> Ideally every transaction is paid to a fresh address... and no one has any idea who owns which addresses.
891 2012-04-23 23:37:47 <luke-jr> Eliel: except blockchain.info
892 2012-04-23 23:37:51 <gmaxwell> And the addresses are random.
893 2012-04-23 23:37:53 <xixor> can you get different random numbers for each transaction then?
894 2012-04-23 23:38:07 <xixor> this is very interesting, did one of you write a phd dissertation on this or something?
895 2012-04-23 23:38:12 <Eliel> luke-jr: I don't buy that.
896 2012-04-23 23:38:17 <gmaxwell> You can. though people do reuse addresses because it's easy to do so.
897 2012-04-23 23:38:31 <gmaxwell> xixor: You may be interested in the bitcoin design paper http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
898 2012-04-23 23:38:34 <luke-jr> Eliel: 90% of my addresses are linked by spends
899 2012-04-23 23:38:49 <xixor> gmaxwell: cool, thanks
900 2012-04-23 23:38:55 <gmaxwell> xixor: it covers the core concepts, though not the implementation details.
901 2012-04-23 23:38:58 <luke-jr> Eliel: Coin Control is a nice view of ones own lack of privacy
902 2012-04-23 23:39:06 <gmaxwell> (your exact privacy question is covered in section 10, for example)
903 2012-04-23 23:39:15 <luke-jr> xixor: #bitcoin-watch may be handy :p
904 2012-04-23 23:39:43 <xixor> well, I had heard of bitcoin mining for a while now... but I had zero idea of what it meant
905 2012-04-23 23:39:59 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: we could probably bias the selection against linking with almost no cost... I only haven't bothered looking into it yet because the coincontrol detection of linkage is a prereq. :)
906 2012-04-23 23:40:14 * sipa thinks #bitcoin-watch should be called #bitcoin-christmas-tree
907 2012-04-23 23:40:16 <Eliel> luke-jr: so, isn't anyone working on making the input choosing algorithm more intelligent so it doesn't link the addresses so much?
908 2012-04-23 23:40:27 <luke-jr> Eliel: not afaik
909 2012-04-23 23:40:49 <Eliel> not a priority for anyone I guess.
910 2012-04-23 23:41:01 <gmaxwell> Eliel: see my comment above ^
911 2012-04-23 23:41:35 <Eliel> ah
912 2012-04-23 23:42:16 <Eliel> now, what's this coin control thing?
913 2012-04-23 23:42:29 <luke-jr> Eliel: coderrr's work
914 2012-04-23 23:42:54 <luke-jr> shows you which of your addresses are linked, and lets you pick which ones you send from
915 2012-04-23 23:43:10 <xixor> well thank you for all the explanations, I will take a read of that bitcoin design paper
916 2012-04-23 23:43:11 <luke-jr> http://coderrr.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/patching-the-bitcoin-client-to-make-it-more-anonymous/
917 2012-04-23 23:43:14 <sipa> i wonder how it deals with multisig addresses
918 2012-04-23 23:43:18 <xixor> it seems like an exciting project
919 2012-04-23 23:43:30 <gmaxwell> xixor:  It is!  feel free to ask questions.
920 2012-04-23 23:44:38 <luke-jr> wtf
921 2012-04-23 23:44:40 <luke-jr> "Add a +1 to the pull request if you believe this should be added to the official client: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/415"
922 2012-04-23 23:44:45 <luke-jr> that's where the spam came from
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