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  6 2012-04-26 00:11:24 <dub> let it fail on its own merits, it was only a matter of time till someone did it, I thought about it a while ago but dismissed it for above reason
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  8 2012-04-26 00:13:04 <dub> it will also not be possible to exclude them
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 11 2012-04-26 00:21:45 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sgaltsev opened issue 33 on bitcoin/bitcoin.org <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/issues/33>
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 15 2012-04-26 00:35:41 <MC1984> Diablo-D3
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 22 2012-04-26 01:18:03 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: jgarzik opened issue 1147 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1147>
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 32 2012-04-26 01:30:11 <freewil> the wiki is slower than balls
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 34 2012-04-26 01:33:39 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened issue 1148 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1148>
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 58 2012-04-26 02:34:51 <etotheipi_> sipa: do you have any test vectors I can use to verify my new HD wallet format against yours?
 59 2012-04-26 02:35:48 <etotheipi_> right now, I just need HMAC, but eventually, we should have a multi-chain test case with like 5 addresses on each chain
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 71 2012-04-26 02:50:35 <etotheipi_> sipa, for the HD wallet: whereever you have EC points, are you encoding them as compressed or uncompressed?
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 77 2012-04-26 03:22:25 <JWU42> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/273
 78 2012-04-26 03:22:39 <JWU42> any chance for some help on this request?
 79 2012-04-26 03:22:52 <JWU42> oops
 80 2012-04-26 03:24:16 <JWU42> the other ws a dupe...
 81 2012-04-26 03:25:41 <luke-jr> JWU42: could get a reasonably competent router <.<
 82 2012-04-26 03:26:10 <JWU42> I have one thank you - just not anting to do the traffic shaping
 83 2012-04-26 03:26:23 <JWU42> if there was something simple in the daemon
 84 2012-04-26 03:26:33 <neofutur> JWU42: added a 1 and some links
 85 2012-04-26 03:26:49 <neofutur> s/1/+1
 86 2012-04-26 03:29:03 <JWU42> neofutur: thks
 87 2012-04-26 03:29:29 <neofutur> the shared blockchain is probably even better than just throttle
 88 2012-04-26 03:29:40 <neofutur> saving diskspace _and_ network usage
 89 2012-04-26 03:29:43 <JWU42> agreed - for vps especially
 90 2012-04-26 03:30:06 <JWU42> I am finding my upstream getting totally hosed 4-5 times a day for 1-2 hours at a time
 91 2012-04-26 03:30:20 <neofutur> yup ( we already talked of this on #bitcoin-hosting ) , many people need this
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 93 2012-04-26 03:30:50 <JWU42> just need to learn the QoS settings in pfsense in the interim
 94 2012-04-26 03:30:53 <neofutur> forvpsand even for servers, i run bitcoind on 20 dedicated servers, bigwaste of diskspace and bandwith
 95 2012-04-26 03:31:01 <JWU42> agreed
 96 2012-04-26 03:31:25 <freewil> what is the blockid that is supposed to be passed to listsinceblock
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 98 2012-04-26 03:32:04 <neofutur> also there are linux tools to limit a program s bandwidth
 99 2012-04-26 03:34:10 <JWU42> I will try and do this on the router for now
100 2012-04-26 03:34:20 <JWU42> which is FBSD
101 2012-04-26 03:36:06 <sipa> etotheipi_: the source code in my detwallet branch has hmac test vectors
102 2012-04-26 03:36:32 <sipa> etotheipi_: and ec points in a chain are either all compressed, or all uncompressed
103 2012-04-26 03:36:55 <sipa> though i expect compressed ones to be more common
104 2012-04-26 03:37:15 <neofutur> JWU42: you could try http://monkey.org/~marius/pages/?page=trickle and http://klicman.org/throttle/
105 2012-04-26 03:38:03 <neofutur> but forsure better have an option in bitcoind
106 2012-04-26 03:38:18 <JWU42> agreed
107 2012-04-26 03:38:22 <neofutur> and trickle is not working with all programs
108 2012-04-26 03:40:34 <sipa> why try to implement bandwidth management inside specific programs, when it can be done by implementing it once in common?
109 2012-04-26 03:40:52 Slix` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
110 2012-04-26 03:41:07 <neofutur> also found http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/slowdown/
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112 2012-04-26 03:43:44 <sipa> etotheipi_: not sure other test vecors in there are still up to date with the draft
113 2012-04-26 03:45:54 <TuxBlackEdo> sipa, utorrent has a bandwidth limiter
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115 2012-04-26 03:47:55 <etotheipi_> sipa: wouldn't it make more sense to just pick one and stick with it?  specify that all public keys used in HMAC calcs will be uncompressed... remove the uncertainty
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122 2012-04-26 04:02:52 <etotheipi_> sipa: also:  why  "key[n] ^= 0x5c ^ 0x36;" for the inner HMAC op?  the HMAC wiki says is should only be "key[n] ^= 0x36;"
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150 2012-04-26 05:51:38 <paulo_> is there another way to solve the double spend problem?
151 2012-04-26 05:56:07 <copumpkin> the only other approach to it (I don't know of actual implementations or details of how/if it would work) that I've heard of is to arrange things so that a spend reveals a part of a secret, so that if you spend the same money multiple times, you somehow reveal enough of your secret that the recipients of your double-spent funds could collude to screw you somehow.
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154 2012-04-26 06:04:47 <nanotube> copumpkin: you forgot another approach. centralized bookkeeper. :)
155 2012-04-26 06:04:53 <copumpkin> well yeah :P
156 2012-04-26 06:05:06 <nanotube> so make that 'the only two other approaches' hehe
157 2012-04-26 06:07:27 JStoker has joined
158 2012-04-26 06:12:07 <paulo_> the difficulty is determined by averaging the amount of time it took to generate blocks, right?
159 2012-04-26 06:27:35 machine1 has joined
160 2012-04-26 06:29:58 <wumpus> yes you really need to add 'decentralized' to the requirements, that's what makes it difficult
161 2012-04-26 06:30:40 <wumpus> otherwise I suggest opentransactions
162 2012-04-26 06:32:37 fiddur has joined
163 2012-04-26 06:33:53 <wumpus> or loom: https://loom.cc/help
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166 2012-04-26 06:39:52 <neofutur> wow stillonly 2 confirmatimation after morethan one hour, never seen so slow
167 2012-04-26 06:40:47 <weex> neofutur: stop with your badluck spells!
168 2012-04-26 06:40:52 RazielZ has joined
169 2012-04-26 06:41:02 <neofutur> http://blockchain.info/tx-index/4411981/1d2811e912708b2a2c399307762551bc6dbfd9fe892ceb22bd4767353aa0281e
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173 2012-04-26 06:53:41 <neofutur> http://blockchain.info/
174 2012-04-26 06:53:47 <neofutur> 1 hour / block
175 2012-04-26 06:54:20 <neofutur> 1-2 hours / block ! is this normal ? orsonething is happening ?
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183 2012-04-26 07:33:53 <Takyoji> Any reason for no IPv6 support yet (in the mainstream client)?
184 2012-04-26 07:37:20 <neofutur> concerning ipv6, fyi : http://www.christopher-parsons.com/blog/technology/ipv6-and-the-future-of-privacy/
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187 2012-04-26 07:39:50 <neofutur> ( i dont say ipv6 is bad, those are just some interesting thoughts and questions )
188 2012-04-26 07:39:54 <Takyoji> and yes, I'm very familiar with IPv6 and implementation, and help others get it integrated. If privacy is such an issue, there's always the option of temporary addresses (as Windows has privacy extensions active by default)
189 2012-04-26 07:40:27 <Dagger2> or alternately, SOCKS proxies work just fine with IPv6
190 2012-04-26 07:40:51 <Dagger2> and so does NAT (although why you would want to subject yourself to that...)
191 2012-04-26 07:41:22 <Takyoji> or even IPsec, which is included in IPv6, and required to be implemented to be "IPv6 compliant"
192 2012-04-26 07:41:50 <Dagger2> so the people who are really concerned about that can go ahead and make their own lives awkward if they want, whereas the rest of us can continue with our properly-functional networks
193 2012-04-26 07:42:19 <Dagger2> you don't have that choice in v4 because there aren't enough addresses to do it, but you *do* have the choice in v6
194 2012-04-26 07:42:42 <Takyoji> It's just that it comes to a shock to me that, all modern web technologies support IPv6, and yet the Bitcoin clients do not.
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197 2012-04-26 07:50:09 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: davout opened issue 1149 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1149>
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212 2012-04-26 08:21:28 <Graet> Takyoji, maybe ipv6 is great for you, but most isps in my country dont support it yet so doesnt matter if cutting edge tech uses it, i cant....
213 2012-04-26 08:22:11 <Dagger2> Graet: sure you can... what OS?
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218 2012-04-26 08:23:00 <Takyoji> That's not a very practical mindset of rollout, also, anyone can get IPv6 connectivity anytime, anywhere.
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220 2012-04-26 08:23:50 <Graet> really? even tho my isp says no and they dont yet support ipv6?
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222 2012-04-26 08:25:03 <neofutur> yes you can using briges / over ipv4
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224 2012-04-26 08:25:27 <Takyoji> In fact, EVERY Windows Vista and Windows 7 installation have an active IPv6 connection by default, Microsoft just doesn't have the DNS resolver set to resolve IPv6 addresses, yet.
225 2012-04-26 08:25:30 <neofutur> but I m also not interested in adding unstable layers and bridges
226 2012-04-26 08:25:39 <Takyoji> (known as Teredo)
227 2012-04-26 08:25:48 <Dagger2> ^ that
228 2012-04-26 08:26:16 FACEFOX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
229 2012-04-26 08:26:18 <Dagger2> which is why I was asking for OS. Graet: try `ping 2a00:1450:4007:802::1010` at the commandline, assuming you're on Vista/7
230 2012-04-26 08:26:19 <neofutur> + itsnt _that_ easy to setyup yet
231 2012-04-26 08:26:44 <Dagger2> neofutur: better than dealing with NAT though
232 2012-04-26 08:26:46 <Takyoji> There's also http://gogonet.gogo6.com/page/freenet6-services for the non-technical
233 2012-04-26 08:27:27 <Takyoji> where all you need is a username/password
234 2012-04-26 08:27:36 <Takyoji> No router configuration or anything
235 2012-04-26 08:27:56 <Graet> transmit failed. general failure in win7. unknown host inh ubuntu oneric
236 2012-04-26 08:28:12 <Takyoji> I'm plain tired of "oh, well, let's just not do it"
237 2012-04-26 08:28:31 <Graet> ie ping fails
238 2012-04-26 08:28:43 <Takyoji> By the way, it's ping6 on Unix-like systems
239 2012-04-26 08:29:32 <Dagger2> hm, not sure about the win7 error, but for Ubuntu, `apt-get install miredo` (and use ping6 instead of ping) and it should work
240 2012-04-26 08:29:32 <Takyoji> also, Ubuntu doesn't have a Teredo client active by default, you can install miredo.
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242 2012-04-26 08:29:59 <Dagger2> ... unless the error on Win7 is caused by Teredo being broken on your network, in which case miredo isn't likely to have much more luck
243 2012-04-26 08:30:52 <Graet> even tho my isp says no and they dont yet support ipv6, is more likely, someone said MS didnt do ipv6 dns yet, maybe my isp hasnt either....
244 2012-04-26 08:31:05 <Dagger2> apparently doing "netsh interface teredo set state enterpriseclient" on Windows may enable Teredo
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246 2012-04-26 08:31:53 <Takyoji> It all supports IPv6 DNS resolution. It's just that Microsoft's resolver won't resolve to an IPv6 address unless: the program specifically asks, or, you have a native (non-Teredo) IPv6 connection.
247 2012-04-26 08:32:03 <Dagger2> Graet: `ping` gives "unknown host" on Linux becaues Linux has separate ping/ping6 tools for v4/v6 (for god knows what reason)
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250 2012-04-26 08:34:13 <freewil> ;;bc,tslb
251 2012-04-26 08:34:13 <gribble> Time since last block: 24 minutes and 23 seconds
252 2012-04-26 08:35:47 <Graet> yer i saw
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254 2012-04-26 08:37:23 <Takyoji> As it stands, I don't even comprehend why the client lacks IPv6 support; something must be done horrendously wrong for it to have that kind of limitation.
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256 2012-04-26 08:38:42 <Takyoji> There doesn't need to be anything manipulated with an IPv6 address, it can even just be stored as a string. There's no 'binary operations' or anything that are relevant to the client in any way to my understanding
257 2012-04-26 08:39:56 <Takyoji> You just pass either a IPv4 or IPv6 address to connect() command, that's all. I don't see how that can get confused or screwed up
258 2012-04-26 08:42:15 <Takyoji> and considering the protocol itself supports it: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Network_address
259 2012-04-26 08:42:21 <Dagger2> in fairness, Bitcoin does have additional issues to deal with
260 2012-04-26 08:42:56 <Takyoji> is there a bug tracker somewhere then?
261 2012-04-26 08:43:43 <Dagger2> e.g. someone flooding the network with addresses from their /64; you want your client to be connected to multiple remote nodes, not to the same node over different addresses
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263 2012-04-26 08:44:56 <freewil> Takyoji, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1021
264 2012-04-26 08:45:52 <freewil> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/search?q=ipv6
265 2012-04-26 08:48:43 <Takyoji> Seems to be a commit that's close to succession
266 2012-04-26 08:53:27 <freewil> ;;bc,tslb
267 2012-04-26 08:53:28 <gribble> Time since last block: 4 minutes and 13 seconds
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269 2012-04-26 08:53:39 <freewil> ;;bc,tslb
270 2012-04-26 08:53:40 <gribble> Time since last block: 4 minutes and 25 seconds
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286 2012-04-26 09:54:22 <UukGoblin> anyone know a good inexpensive lawyer that could write up T&Cs for my piece of GPL software? :-P
287 2012-04-26 09:54:46 <sipa> etotheipi_: somehow i don't like "committing" to compressed keys yet; who knows what legal trouble appeaars still
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292 2012-04-26 09:58:45 <da2ce7> sipa: how is your HD wallet spec comming along?
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306 2012-04-26 10:41:33 <sipa> etotheipi_: and if you first xored in-place with 0x5c to calculate the inner hash, you need to xor with (0x36 xor 0x58) to end up with the data that needs to be fed to the outer hash no? (the code passes the RFC's HMAC test vectors, so i'm pretty sure they're correct)
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308 2012-04-26 10:45:48 <sipa> da2ce7: need a few short sections still; https://raw.github.com/gist/1799467/e7cfe5b757530719627dc2ff75feea5f926f995a/gistfile1.txt
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336 2012-04-26 12:42:46 <etotheipi_> sipa, looking at the HMAC pseudo-code, that does not look correct.  There's a hash and a concatenation separating the 0x5c and 0x36 padding
337 2012-04-26 12:44:53 <sipa> etotheipi_: ?
338 2012-04-26 12:45:34 <sipa> etotheipi_: you hash ((key xor 0x5c) | ...) and ((key xor 0x36) | ...)
339 2012-04-26 12:45:59 <sipa> as the xoring in my implementation is done in place, you need to a) revert the 0x5c padding, and b) apply the 0x36 padding
340 2012-04-26 12:46:15 <sipa> which equals xoring with 0x5c xor 0x36
341 2012-04-26 12:46:45 <etotheipi_> ooh,  you're reverting the the 0x5c because it's in place
342 2012-04-26 12:46:53 <etotheipi_> I should've looked at that closer
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346 2012-04-26 12:59:01 <etotheipi_> sipa, in the spec, you first specifcy the CKD function as taking two inputs, a key/chain pair, and an index, n
347 2012-04-26 12:59:37 <etotheipi_> then under the key tree, you specify only CKD(m,n), where m is...
348 2012-04-26 13:00:11 <etotheipi_> so is the master key 32-bytes message, and 32-bytes of extra entropy?
349 2012-04-26 13:01:29 <sipa> etotheipi_: CKD has two inputs, an extended private key, and an index
350 2012-04-26 13:01:47 <etotheipi_> so "extended key" means ECDSA key + chaincode
351 2012-04-26 13:01:50 <sipa> yes
352 2012-04-26 13:02:09 <sipa> We represent an extended private key as (k,c), with k the normal private key, and c the chain code. An extended public key is represented as (K,c), with K the normal public key and c the chain code.
353 2012-04-26 13:03:29 <etotheipi_> okay, and "accounts" are essentially key-tree-branches, right?
354 2012-04-26 13:03:45 <sipa> basically, yes
355 2012-04-26 13:03:57 <sipa> it's a subtree with an internal and an external chain
356 2012-04-26 13:04:42 <sipa> hmm, i should be consistent in using secret key and private key
357 2012-04-26 13:04:53 <etotheipi_> okay, I got it (I think)
358 2012-04-26 13:05:07 <etotheipi_> this new wallet format is going to be more complicated than I thought
359 2012-04-26 13:05:13 <sipa> m = entire tree
360 2012-04-26 13:05:20 <sipa> m/i = account number i
361 2012-04-26 13:05:30 <sipa> m/i/0 = public chain of account number i
362 2012-04-26 13:05:32 <etotheipi_> but at least I don't have to implement storing multiple chaincodes
363 2012-04-26 13:05:48 <etotheipi_> everything is derived from the room m=(key,chain)
364 2012-04-26 13:05:56 <etotheipi_> *root
365 2012-04-26 13:06:09 <sipa> yes, and the root is derived from a seed that is even shorter
366 2012-04-26 13:07:13 <etotheipi_> and I can give someone the public root of any "account" or just the external chain of that account
367 2012-04-26 13:07:19 <sipa> indeed
368 2012-04-26 13:07:27 <etotheipi_> why a move towards shorter seeds?
369 2012-04-26 13:07:52 <etotheipi_> oh, because a 256-bit ECDSA key only offers about 128 bits of security?
370 2012-04-26 13:07:56 <sipa> yes
371 2012-04-26 13:08:04 <sipa> so 512 bit keys seem totally overkill
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374 2012-04-26 13:10:32 <sipa> etotheipi_: basically to allow brainwallet-like things (with randomly generated word strings)
375 2012-04-26 13:10:38 <etotheipi_> so then msg=S in the key generation part is much like a "password" in the case that no key data is ever stored on disk
376 2012-04-26 13:10:57 <sipa> right
377 2012-04-26 13:11:24 <etotheipi_> or rather, you can leave the "bitcoin seed" on disk, and protect it with msg S... though the see would probably be protected by an encryption requiring a passphrase...
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379 2012-04-26 13:11:38 <etotheipi_> isn't that slightly redundant?
380 2012-04-26 13:11:51 <sipa> "Bitcoin seed" is intended to just be a fixed string
381 2012-04-26 13:12:16 <sipa> just to make the derivation application-specific
382 2012-04-26 13:12:30 <etotheipi_> "Bitcoin Seed" is fixed for everyone?
383 2012-04-26 13:12:33 <sipa> yes
384 2012-04-26 13:12:37 <etotheipi_> I mean, everyone uses the same seed?
385 2012-04-26 13:12:39 <sipa> yes
386 2012-04-26 13:12:49 <sipa> well, no
387 2012-04-26 13:12:59 <sipa> "Bitcoin seed" is not the seed, it's just a fixed string
388 2012-04-26 13:13:04 <sipa> S is the seed, and is secret
389 2012-04-26 13:13:16 <sipa> maybe it's confusion wording
390 2012-04-26 13:13:26 <etotheipi_> I = HMAC-SHA512(key="Bitcoin seed", msg=S)
391 2012-04-26 13:13:34 <sipa> yes
392 2012-04-26 13:13:53 <sipa> "Bitcoin seed" is not a variable there, it's just the fixed string constant "Bitcoin seed"
393 2012-04-26 13:13:57 <etotheipi_> so everyone uses the same "key" but each person will have a different seed?
394 2012-04-26 13:14:01 <sipa> yes
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396 2012-04-26 13:14:19 <sipa> the alternative was just using SHA512, and have no fixed string
397 2012-04-26 13:14:39 <sipa> but there are potential length-extension weaknesses there, so you use HMAC
398 2012-04-26 13:14:39 <etotheipi_> okay, now I think I get it
399 2012-04-26 13:15:04 <etotheipi_> this is eerily similar to my actual job:  taking specifications written by other people and writing matching code
400 2012-04-26 13:15:21 <etotheipi_> although those specifications are written by idiots...
401 2012-04-26 13:15:40 <sipa> etotheipi_: when i have finished the implementation i'll add a test vectors section with intermediate calculation results
402 2012-04-26 13:15:47 <sipa> that will probably clarify a lot
403 2012-04-26 13:15:48 <etotheipi_> sipa: perfect
404 2012-04-26 13:15:56 <etotheipi_> I'm going to get started implementing it...
405 2012-04-26 13:16:03 <etotheipi_> I have other details to work out with my wallet
406 2012-04-26 13:16:07 <etotheipi_> so I'm not in any hurry
407 2012-04-26 13:17:04 <etotheipi_> btw, I don't know you're organizing your new wallets... but I realized that I need to store comments and P2SH scripts outside the wallet itself (or both inside and out)
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409 2012-04-26 13:17:42 <etotheipi_> so that users can put their comments and scripts into a file that can be backed up regularly (dropbox?) so they don't have to backup all their key data with it (which may be on a printed backup somewhere)
410 2012-04-26 13:18:57 <sipa> and account names, if you'd support those
411 2012-04-26 13:19:20 <sipa> but indeed, there is certainly non-secret but important information in wallets
412 2012-04-26 13:20:23 <etotheipi_> oh, in Armory I use "comments" to describe all the text info
413 2012-04-26 13:20:29 <etotheipi_> I have address comments and tx comments
414 2012-04-26 13:20:39 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
415 2012-04-26 13:20:44 <etotheipi_> but maybe I should use "label" for the addresses
416 2012-04-26 13:21:49 <etotheipi_> it's all thrown into a single BST of address and tx hashes:  if there's a tx-hash in the tree, display the text for it... if not, look for the recipient address comment and use that if avail
417 2012-04-26 13:23:57 <etotheipi_> I'm wondering now, if it's worth offering encryption on even non-private data...
418 2012-04-26 13:24:43 <etotheipi_> if I have 10k BTC... even if I'm using a watching-only wallet for security: someone who accesses that wallet will know I have a lot of money and might make me a target (and they're already on my computer, so they can probably get all my info)
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438 2012-04-26 14:13:33 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened pull request 1150 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1150>
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443 2012-04-26 14:35:06 <delt0r__> etotheipi_: if I have access to your computer, how can any encryption really help? I can always go all keylogger on you
444 2012-04-26 14:38:57 <etotheipi_> delt0r__: because the computer holding this wallet doesn't actually have the private keys
445 2012-04-26 14:39:13 <etotheipi_> compromise the computer all you want, but all you're getting is a bunch of public keys
446 2012-04-26 14:39:27 <etotheipi_> that's the point of offline wallets & watching-only wallets
447 2012-04-26 14:39:54 <etotheipi_> oh, nm.... I misunderstood
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450 2012-04-26 14:40:53 <etotheipi_> delt0r__: there's various levels of attacks... just because someone gains access to a file on your system doesn't mean they can/know how to install a keylogger
451 2012-04-26 14:40:59 <delt0r__> right... yea.. but you have a point... watching only wallets
452 2012-04-26 14:41:05 <delt0r__> or two key stuff
453 2012-04-26 14:41:38 <etotheipi_> but most of the time, you're right:  the attacks are close enough:  if they are close enough to snatch a file, they could easily install a keylogger
454 2012-04-26 14:41:42 <gmaxwell> delt0r__: for example, they might obtain your disk only after you've upgraded to a new computer and thrown out the disk. Encryption provides useful protection there (well, with the iffy assumption that your key is actually any good)
455 2012-04-26 14:42:10 <delt0r__> etotheipi_: I don't  think there is much of a credible thread model where there is computer access without keylogger access TBH... esp when the original access is not legit
456 2012-04-26 14:42:27 <gmaxwell> I just gave you one.
457 2012-04-26 14:42:58 <Diablo-D3> remember: vote: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78052.0
458 2012-04-26 14:43:10 <gmaxwell> Or another spin on that: Your disk fails. You send it off for RMA replacement. The repair shop now has your wallet. Congrats, you lost.
459 2012-04-26 14:43:11 <delt0r__> gmaxwell: i don't disagree generally... but i am talking about a compromised computer, not hard drive
460 2012-04-26 14:43:37 <gmaxwell> delt0r__: you can also realize that you've been compromised before starting the wallet again.
461 2012-04-26 14:43:57 <etotheipi_> delt0r__: here's a very direct, important reason:
462 2012-04-26 14:44:16 <etotheipi_> I want my watching only wallet and all of the P2SH scripts and comments/labels to be backed up regularly
463 2012-04-26 14:44:23 <etotheipi_> I want to back them up to dropbox
464 2012-04-26 14:44:29 <delt0r__> I use full disk encryption. But its good to be clear about what that does not protect against
465 2012-04-26 14:44:32 <etotheipi_> someone compromising dropbox does not give them keylogger access
466 2012-04-26 14:44:37 <etotheipi_> to my computer
467 2012-04-26 14:44:52 <drizztbsd> new bitcoin supports wallet encryption
468 2012-04-26 14:44:57 <delt0r__> etotheipi_: does a watch only wallet even need the private keys?
469 2012-04-26 14:45:05 <gmaxwell> drizztbsd: by new you mean .. like a year old?
470 2012-04-26 14:45:12 <drizztbsd> yeah :P
471 2012-04-26 14:45:18 <etotheipi_> delt0r__: the watching-only wallet doesn't have the private keys
472 2012-04-26 14:45:24 <delt0r__> yea...
473 2012-04-26 14:45:42 <etotheipi_> but my concern was that if you have a lot of money, someone who compromises your watching-only wallet might see that you have $100k in funds and then make you a target
474 2012-04-26 14:45:45 <delt0r__> ahh.. but you don't like the idea they can work out you have 10k bitcoins
475 2012-04-26 14:46:07 <etotheipi_> exactly
476 2012-04-26 14:46:55 * Eliel wonders if there's a way to obfuscate that somehow.
477 2012-04-26 14:46:57 <delt0r__> everything i care about on the "cloud" (hate that term) I always encrypt.
478 2012-04-26 14:47:06 <etotheipi_> so perhaps I can keep all address/tx comments and P2SH scripts in both the main wallet and a separate file
479 2012-04-26 14:47:17 <Eliel> as in, make it the most likely scenario that if you find a watch-only wallet that it's a decoy
480 2012-04-26 14:47:30 <etotheipi_> the main wallet will always hold that data unencrypted, the extra file will hold it encrypted with a private key in the wallet
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482 2012-04-26 14:48:13 <etotheipi_> the encryption can be done even with a watching-only wallet
483 2012-04-26 14:48:27 <etotheipi_> and that extra file can be sync'd to dropbox, etc
484 2012-04-26 14:48:43 Bigpiggy01Mining has joined
485 2012-04-26 14:49:43 <etotheipi_> that way if my hard-drive dies, I can restore the wallet keys from paper backup, and then restore all the comments/P2SH-scripts using the encrypted file and my wallet
486 2012-04-26 14:52:16 <etotheipi_> thoughts?
487 2012-04-26 14:52:45 <etotheipi_> actually, the encryption doesn't even have to be done with a private key:  it can be done with the root public key
488 2012-04-26 14:53:45 <etotheipi_> or rather, a key derived from your root public key
489 2012-04-26 14:56:11 <etotheipi_> sipa: if there are patent issues with compressed public keys in the HD wallet spec, why not patent issues using it in the main BTC client?
490 2012-04-26 14:56:28 <etotheipi_> s/client/protocol/g
491 2012-04-26 14:57:09 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: because the use in the client can be optional. And to the extent that it's not optional (chain validation) we didn't get a say in that— OpenSSL screwed us there.
492 2012-04-26 14:58:18 <etotheipi_> well if that's the case, why not just make the HD wallet spec always use full public keys and then not deal with storing extra flags?
493 2012-04-26 14:58:26 <etotheipi_> (or patent issues)
494 2012-04-26 14:59:06 <etotheipi_> you can still compressed public keys for the resulting addresses it produces
495 2012-04-26 15:02:35 <paulo_> i'm bored
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497 2012-04-26 15:04:16 <delt0r__> regarding patents, What about public key recovery from a ECDSA sig then check that its the correct public key... constrain public keys to only use the largest of the 2 possible y values
498 2012-04-26 15:04:41 <delt0r__> you lose half the possible key pairs.. but that is not a large loss
499 2012-04-26 15:05:07 <delt0r__> Clearly i don't mean for a already defined standard such as bitcoin current
500 2012-04-26 15:05:20 <delt0r__> just Generally..
501 2012-04-26 15:07:13 <delt0r__> In fact you don't need the positive what ever thing about the second coordinate
502 2012-04-26 15:07:42 <delt0r__> if public keys are hashes of the public key Point
503 2012-04-26 15:10:24 <gmaxwell> delt0r__: that has unclear security implications.
504 2012-04-26 15:10:48 <gmaxwell> (or at least it clearly looks like it reduces the keyspace by several bits)
505 2012-04-26 15:11:13 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you havent made your case on the poll thread
506 2012-04-26 15:11:42 <gmaxwell> what poll thread?
507 2012-04-26 15:13:43 <Diablo-D3> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78052.0
508 2012-04-26 15:13:45 <etotheipi_> delt0r__: that would also require a protocol change... the compressed keys were already supported because the main client uses OpenSSL which recognized them anyway
509 2012-04-26 15:16:20 <etotheipi_> does the Satoshi client automatically register itself to handle "bitcoin:" URLs?  because I don't think it did on my Ubuntu system
510 2012-04-26 15:16:37 <sipa> etotheipi_: hmm, that's possibility, always do the derivation using uncompressed keys
511 2012-04-26 15:16:53 <Diablo-D3> etotheipi_: no
512 2012-04-26 15:16:54 <delt0r__> gmaxwell: It is fairly easy to prove equivalence to the standard check with the standard collision hash length trade off
513 2012-04-26 15:17:14 <delt0r__> etotheipi_: don't mean for a current protocol... but if there was a new one..
514 2012-04-26 15:18:23 <sipa> delt0r__: if we'd change the protocol anyway, i wouldn't keep using ECDSA :)
515 2012-04-26 15:18:34 <gmaxwell> ^ that
516 2012-04-26 15:18:36 <etotheipi_> sipa: what would you use?
517 2012-04-26 15:18:40 <sipa> Ed25519
518 2012-04-26 15:18:52 <delt0r__> sipa: this is ECDSA, just avoids the patent compression issues
519 2012-04-26 15:18:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: modified Ed25519.
520 2012-04-26 15:19:05 <delt0r__> at least that is the question
521 2012-04-26 15:19:10 <gmaxwell> delt0r__: it doesn't, you're confused there.
522 2012-04-26 15:19:22 <delt0r__> gmaxwell: ? why whouldn't it...
523 2012-04-26 15:19:41 <sipa> Ed25519 is certainly similar to ECDSA, but it has a number of advantages
524 2012-04-26 15:19:59 <delt0r__> gmaxwell: modified ed25519? modified in what way (I am awear of the ec25519)
525 2012-04-26 15:19:59 <gmaxwell> delt0r__: because there isn't any issue with using key recovery with simply adding the extra bits.
526 2012-04-26 15:20:14 <gmaxwell> delt0r__: modified to make key recovery possible.
527 2012-04-26 15:20:45 <delt0r__> gmaxwell: as in there are no issues with patents? if so cool.. i was under the impression that this is not clear legally
528 2012-04-26 15:20:53 <delt0r__> oh.. sorry
529 2012-04-26 15:20:59 <delt0r__> gmaxwell: right
530 2012-04-26 15:21:12 <sipa> there is EC key compression, which has unclear legal status
531 2012-04-26 15:21:25 <delt0r__> interleaving my conversions... is confusing me
532 2012-04-26 15:21:37 <delt0r__> conversations
533 2012-04-26 15:21:46 <sipa> there is ECDSA key recovery, which requires EC key compression, but doesn't actually fit the patent claim on EC key compression
534 2012-04-26 15:21:56 <delt0r__> right
535 2012-04-26 15:22:06 <delt0r__> that is what i was getting at
536 2012-04-26 15:22:33 <sipa> and, if we'd switch protocol, one choice would be using EC signatures + extra bit to make key recovery possible
537 2012-04-26 15:22:38 <delt0r__> how much faster is ec25519 compared to the current curve used in bitcoin?
538 2012-04-26 15:22:55 <sipa> depends on the implementation, i have some benchmarks somewhere
539 2012-04-26 15:23:14 <jrmithdobbs> magnitudes in several cases though isn't it?
540 2012-04-26 15:23:39 <gmaxwell> It was a pretty big speedup comparing our current and the optimized Ed25519  Note that ec25519 and ed25519 are _not_ the same thing.
541 2012-04-26 15:23:53 <delt0r__> I expect that this is the slowest part of validation by a pretty large margin
542 2012-04-26 15:24:08 <delt0r__> gmaxwell: right...
543 2012-04-26 15:24:23 <gmaxwell> We don't have an equally well optimized implementation for our current curve which would reduce the margin somewhat I expect.
544 2012-04-26 15:24:23 * delt0r__ googles
545 2012-04-26 15:25:04 <gmaxwell> delt0r__: dunno about your assumption there—  e.g. 8ms media rotational delay per input could easily dwarf validating one signature per input.
546 2012-04-26 15:25:06 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: the clean C implementation of Ed25519 is about 10x as slow as the current OpenSSl implementation secp256k1-ECDSA
547 2012-04-26 15:25:08 <delt0r__> is it over a GF or Z_p?
548 2012-04-26 15:25:22 <delt0r__> wow
549 2012-04-26 15:25:22 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: the amd64-assembly optimized one is about 8 times faster
550 2012-04-26 15:26:14 <sipa> delt0r__: Z_p
551 2012-04-26 15:26:23 <sipa> with p = 2^255-19
552 2012-04-26 15:26:25 <gmaxwell> (I do wish the protocol allowed you to optionally have one signature when the input scripts are identical)
553 2012-04-26 15:28:52 <delt0r__> sipa: I mean the current curve used in bitcoin
554 2012-04-26 15:29:14 * delt0r__ googles more
555 2012-04-26 15:29:19 <delt0r__> sorry feeling lazy
556 2012-04-26 15:31:07 <sipa> delt0r__: Z_p as well
557 2012-04-26 15:31:26 bumb has joined
558 2012-04-26 15:31:26 <sipa> delt0r__: http://www.secg.org/index.php?action=secg,docs_secg
559 2012-04-26 15:31:34 <sipa> SEC 2 defines the parameters of secp256k1
560 2012-04-26 15:31:39 <delt0r__> yea
561 2012-04-26 15:31:43 <delt0r__> just found it
562 2012-04-26 15:31:45 <delt0r__> thanks
563 2012-04-26 15:32:50 bumb has left ()
564 2012-04-26 15:33:04 <delt0r__> I would expect HW implementations to be fast with curves over F_2^m
565 2012-04-26 15:33:21 <delt0r__> don't have much of a feeling for software however
566 2012-04-26 15:33:58 <sipa> oclvanitygen implements an EC addition over secp256k1 in OpenCL
567 2012-04-26 15:34:05 <sipa> i believe it's very fast
568 2012-04-26 15:34:10 <sipa> compared to software
569 2012-04-26 15:34:21 <Diablo-D3> what are we doing?
570 2012-04-26 15:38:05 <gmaxwell> sipa: they only step by one, however. So I assumed that it wasn't generally useful.
571 2012-04-26 15:38:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, so it's an addition, not a multiplication
572 2012-04-26 15:38:48 <gmaxwell> And yes, it's very fast.
573 2012-04-26 15:39:14 <gmaxwell> on a single gpu they can do something like 15 million address candidates (ec+two hashes) per second.
574 2012-04-26 15:39:46 <sipa> but since multiplication is really just a loop of 256 additions and quadratures
575 2012-04-26 15:39:59 <sipa> oh, doubling, not quadrature of course
576 2012-04-26 15:40:11 <sipa> i would expect a multiplication to also be very fast
577 2012-04-26 15:40:23 <gmaxwell> Fair enough.
578 2012-04-26 15:41:18 <sipa> If properly implemented :)
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605 2012-04-26 16:53:36 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: freewil opened pull request 1151 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1151>
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616 2012-04-26 17:15:07 <etotheipi_> sipa: quick clarification:  the chain codes that are generated per address are essentially ignored... they only matter for the master extended key, and the parent extended keys
617 2012-04-26 17:15:13 <etotheipi_> ?
618 2012-04-26 17:19:03 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: freewil opened pull request 1152 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1152>
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643 2012-04-26 18:54:45 <pierce> so ..  I'm looking for a lightweight java library for interacting with bitcoind, and I am a bit surprised at my lack of options :-)  am I missing something obvious?
644 2012-04-26 18:58:31 <pierce> https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-python  been using that for python, and https://github.com/mikegogulski/bitcoin-php for php,  but I was looking to do a GWT app, and didn't see much java goodness around
645 2012-04-26 18:58:56 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
646 2012-04-26 18:59:07 <pierce> just lookfor for getbalance sendtoaddress etc, not touching blockchain (bitcoinj etc)
647 2012-04-26 18:59:12 <XMPPwocky> pierce: it's just JSON-RPC
648 2012-04-26 18:59:36 <XMPPwocky> as long as you make sure you parse values as doubles, you can use any library
649 2012-04-26 18:59:54 <pierce> sure :-)  I just like to have the class abstraction though
650 2012-04-26 19:00:02 <pierce> JSON-RPC can get messy in java
651 2012-04-26 19:00:31 <pierce> could write up something and post on github, but I would have thought someone else would have done that by now
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657 2012-04-26 19:10:54 <sipa> etotheipi_: yes, indees
658 2012-04-26 19:18:18 <Diablo-D3> remember to vote! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78052.0
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666 2012-04-26 19:24:27 <pierce> Diablo-D3: you realize that 1m coins is 1/9th of the entire economy?
667 2012-04-26 19:25:04 <Diablo-D3> pierce: yes.
668 2012-04-26 19:25:18 <Diablo-D3> do you realize that this might end up nailing BTC up on the board at $10?
669 2012-04-26 19:25:37 paulo__ has quit ()
670 2012-04-26 19:33:33 <MC1984> pump n dump confirmed
671 2012-04-26 19:33:37 <pierce> sure, sitting on 1/9th of the economy would do that :-)  Of course, if you ended up spending it on say, mining units, retailers would likely attempt to cash out, causing a significant drop in price.
672 2012-04-26 19:35:00 <Diablo-D3> pierce: yes, but if, instead, I use it to run for President
673 2012-04-26 19:35:08 <Diablo-D3> best 1/9th of an economy _ever_
674 2012-04-26 19:35:24 <Diablo-D3> huh.
675 2012-04-26 19:35:32 <Diablo-D3> a bitcoin political party.
676 2012-04-26 19:35:35 <helo> whatever you use it for will likely result in it being "cashed out", unless you sit on it
677 2012-04-26 19:36:03 <helo> oh, misunderstood what you were saying
678 2012-04-26 19:36:58 <pierce> bitcoin doesn't need a party :-)  the idea of deregulation of information does need more political attention though
679 2012-04-26 19:38:22 FACEFOX has quit (Quit: http://www.facefox.com)
680 2012-04-26 19:40:56 <Diablo-D3> pierce: maybe we can get the pp in on this
681 2012-04-26 19:40:58 FACEFOX has joined
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685 2012-04-26 19:42:31 <pierce> Diablo-D3: like this? http://thirdpartydaily.blogspot.com/2011/06/founder-of-pirate-party-gets-behind.html
686 2012-04-26 19:43:01 <pierce> the date of that story makes me laugh
687 2012-04-26 19:44:31 <pierce> "the currency has increased in value one-thousandfold against the US dollar in fourteen months. Yes. Read that again: one-thousandfold, fourteen months. There is currently no indication it would stop or has saturated; quite the opposite."
688 2012-04-26 19:44:46 <pierce> from here --> http://falkvinge.net/2011/05/29/why-im-putting-all-my-savings-into-bitcoin/
689 2012-04-26 19:44:54 FACEFOX has joined
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693 2012-04-26 19:45:52 <Blitzboom> please
694 2012-04-26 19:45:56 <Blitzboom> someone tell me if this is a joke: http://www.bitcoincard.org/
695 2012-04-26 19:46:11 <Blitzboom> video http://vimeo.com/40711689
696 2012-04-26 19:46:45 <Diablo-D3> pierce: er
697 2012-04-26 19:46:50 <Diablo-D3> yeah like that.
698 2012-04-26 19:46:54 FACEFOX has joined
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700 2012-04-26 19:47:10 <Diablo-D3> wwait, wasnt that around the time of the $30 spike?
701 2012-04-26 19:47:19 <pierce> Diablo-D3: exactly :-)
702 2012-04-26 19:47:22 <Blitzboom> Diablo-D3: what a coincidence
703 2012-04-26 19:47:36 FACEFOX has joined
704 2012-04-26 19:47:36 <Blitzboom> now watch the fucking video
705 2012-04-26 19:47:37 <Diablo-D3> fucking pirates :<
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707 2012-04-26 19:47:59 <pierce> I guess he's doing fine financially now, and still has most in bitcoins, but the timing on that decision was pretty epic
708 2012-04-26 19:48:06 <Diablo-D3> Blitzboom: gotta admit, its well produced
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711 2012-04-26 19:48:18 <Blitzboom> is this the NWO?
712 2012-04-26 19:48:33 <Diablo-D3> I like the guys voice
713 2012-04-26 19:48:34 <pierce> woah 300m!
714 2012-04-26 19:48:38 Visalleras has joined
715 2012-04-26 19:48:48 <Diablo-D3> it makes it fakereal
716 2012-04-26 19:48:55 <Diablo-D3> you know what I mean
717 2012-04-26 19:49:12 <Blitzboom> if this shit works, and they achieve a critical mass, it will revolutionize commerce and let them track every consumer
718 2012-04-26 19:49:14 Visalleras is now known as shurnormal
719 2012-04-26 19:49:40 <pierce> don't understand why they didn't just do a phone app..
720 2012-04-26 19:49:52 <Blitzboom> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78171.msg870064#msg870064
721 2012-04-26 19:49:53 <pierce> cards need to die
722 2012-04-26 19:49:55 <Blitzboom> confirmed it is real
723 2012-04-26 19:50:01 <Blitzboom> holy shit
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725 2012-04-26 19:50:22 <Blitzboom> but i can’t believe this actually works as advertised
726 2012-04-26 19:50:35 <Blitzboom> something about it must be shitty (except for being tracked)
727 2012-04-26 19:50:48 <pierce> well, ya, being tracked
728 2012-04-26 19:51:20 <pierce> don't understand why they hammer that point so hard in the video, I would think that quite a few people using coins now would be slightly turned off by that level of tracking
729 2012-04-26 19:51:25 <Diablo-D3> Blitzboom: well, it cant be too real
730 2012-04-26 19:51:27 <Diablo-D3> I dont have one
731 2012-04-26 19:52:11 <pierce> http://www.bitcoincard.org/under_construction_1.php
732 2012-04-26 19:52:12 <pierce> lol
733 2012-04-26 19:52:45 <Blitzboom> i want to see a prototype in action
734 2012-04-26 19:52:55 <pierce> must be somethingawful
735 2012-04-26 19:52:58 <Blitzboom> they make lotso f promises
736 2012-04-26 19:53:10 <Diablo-D3> yeah, I have a technology boner going on here
737 2012-04-26 19:53:15 <Diablo-D3> figuratively and literally
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741 2012-04-26 20:19:11 <guruvan> The tech is pretty damn impressive looking. The tracking just makes me want to see a competitor that doesn't do that :D
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745 2012-04-26 20:30:19 <Blitzboom> guruvan: well, this card will be cheap because you are the product
746 2012-04-26 20:30:27 <Blitzboom> others will be more expensive i guess
747 2012-04-26 20:30:40 <helo> http://www.bitcointard.org
748 2012-04-26 20:31:00 <Diablo-D3> no domain
749 2012-04-26 20:32:50 <MC1984> im watching this bitcoin card thing
750 2012-04-26 20:33:06 <MC1984> 30 seconds in and theyre still describing how its the size of a credit card
751 2012-04-26 20:33:10 <MC1984> im lik, cool story bro
752 2012-04-26 20:33:16 <Diablo-D3> it gets awesome fast
753 2012-04-26 20:33:30 <Eliel> guruvan: depending on how the tracking is implemented I might or might not ever use one :P
754 2012-04-26 20:33:40 <MC1984> is it bullshit or what
755 2012-04-26 20:34:23 <Eliel> however, if it's limited to the card projecting an identity at close range only, it might be acceptable.
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757 2012-04-26 20:35:23 <MC1984> bitcoin is so not anon as it is
758 2012-04-26 20:35:28 <pierce> MC1984: my opinion is well produced troll
759 2012-04-26 20:36:00 <guruvan> don't care about the bitcoin anonymity, so much as I'm really getting tired of invasive tracking in the guise of advertising
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762 2012-04-26 20:39:34 <guruvan> I just don't need some chip reporting to some advertiser how long I stood in front of their product at which stores, omg
763 2012-04-26 20:40:46 <MC1984> the fuck
764 2012-04-26 20:41:54 <guruvan> I managed ops for one of the biggest 1st gen ad networks.....it's come a long way, and gotten a lot more personal since then.
765 2012-04-26 20:42:22 <guruvan> Google's filed a patent to scrape the background noise on your phone calls and serve you ads - kinda like the gmail scrape ads
766 2012-04-26 20:42:45 <MC1984> fuck you mang
767 2012-04-26 20:43:06 <guruvan> combine that data plus the data from one of these cards - there's very little you can't know about an individual  by name
768 2012-04-26 20:43:25 <MC1984> youre like the tower guard at auschwitz
769 2012-04-26 20:45:20 <guruvan> hey...wait...I didn't work for DoubleClick!
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776 2012-04-26 20:52:05 <MC1984> ok 1:38 in that video, im calling bullshit
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779 2012-04-26 20:54:36 <guruvan> gotta move a lotta cards, terminals, and card monitoring devices everywhere, it looks
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784 2012-04-26 20:59:01 <MC1984> im at the mesh net bit and my BS detector is off the chart
785 2012-04-26 20:59:26 <MC1984> glorious if it was real but smacks of vapourware
786 2012-04-26 20:59:32 <guruvan> yeah....I don't don't see that as realistic now
787 2012-04-26 20:59:50 <guruvan> there's apps for android & such, but mmmmmm
788 2012-04-26 21:05:42 <etotheipi_> I think it's possible if it spontaneously reached critical mass
789 2012-04-26 21:06:00 <etotheipi_> the power requirements to transmit a couple hundred meters is nothing compared to transmitting to a cell tower
790 2012-04-26 21:06:38 <MC1984> solar powered yet spends most of its time inside a wallet hmmm
791 2012-04-26 21:07:00 <etotheipi_> I am assuming they won't get it CC-sized...
792 2012-04-26 21:07:16 <etotheipi_> but even if not, it would still have a similar appeal to consumers
793 2012-04-26 21:07:22 <MC1984> i had a solar powered credit card calculator in school
794 2012-04-26 21:07:26 <MC1984> though i was a fucking boss
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837 2012-04-26 23:12:09 <weex> from a data type perspective what does 21m btc fit into when expressed in satoshis?
838 2012-04-26 23:12:41 <luke-jr> 61 bits IIRC
839 2012-04-26 23:12:54 <luke-jr> no, 51
840 2012-04-26 23:13:42 <weex> any reason for that number? I recall having an ahha moment about that but forgot why :/
841 2012-04-26 23:16:14 <luke-jr> weex: Satoshi presumably just picked the 50 BTC constant to start with
842 2012-04-26 23:16:22 <luke-jr> 21mil is the natural result with the halving rules
843 2012-04-26 23:17:30 <weex> ok then, thanks
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854 2012-04-26 23:54:36 dstien_ is now known as dstien
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