1 2012-04-28 00:00:02 <etotheipi_> I meant: you can use 32-bits for enumeration, and use some hash function for bytestrings
   2 2012-04-28 00:00:10 <etotheipi_> there would be no collisions
   3 2012-04-28 00:00:19 <sipa> h, i see
   4 2012-04-28 00:00:21 <etotheipi_> unless the hash somehow ended up with 24 zero-bytes up front
   5 2012-04-28 00:00:47 <sipa> the hash would be longer than 32 bits anyway
   6 2012-04-28 00:00:51 <sipa> and length matters
   7 2012-04-28 00:01:11 <etotheipi_> in which case, it's really all arbitrary.... use all 32-bytes for "enumeration" or for hashes of bytestrings
   8 2012-04-28 00:01:32 <sipa> overkill, i think
   9 2012-04-28 00:01:43 <etotheipi_> well I mean, I don't think it needs to be specified....
  10 2012-04-28 00:01:56 <sipa> unless you have a 4-byte bytestring
  11 2012-04-28 00:02:32 <etotheipi_> if someone wants to treat those 32-bytes as enumerable... they can, or they can use it for byte-strings, or for ASCII text, etc...
  12 2012-04-28 00:02:45 <etotheipi_> it's really up to them, there's no reason to restrict what they can do with that 32-bytes in the spec
  13 2012-04-28 00:02:58 <sipa> yes, just make key ids arbitrary binary data, but the actual wallet structure defines that the account and key nodes are identfied using a 32-bit integer
  14 2012-04-28 00:03:16 <etotheipi_> sipa: right
  15 2012-04-28 00:03:44 <etotheipi_> but I don't see a reason to "restrict" the user to 32-bit integers
  16 2012-04-28 00:04:02 <sipa> there are several layers
  17 2012-04-28 00:04:13 <etotheipi_> just say any integer that fits in 32-BYTES, encoded in LE
  18 2012-04-28 00:04:14 <etotheipi_> err. BE
  19 2012-04-28 00:04:27 <sipa> why?
  20 2012-04-28 00:04:49 <sipa> you can't possibly enumerate those anyway
  21 2012-04-28 00:05:10 <sipa> and as they are enumeratable, they are numbers
  22 2012-04-28 00:05:11 <etotheipi_> if I tell someone, I'm going to use key[0][10][2^48]... for any reason
  23 2012-04-28 00:05:34 <etotheipi_> there's no reason they should have to say "well wait... the spec doesn't say we can use numbers bigger than that... should I still use BE?"
  24 2012-04-28 00:06:11 <sipa> well, you need some encoding for the numbers
  25 2012-04-28 00:06:13 <etotheipi_> it's just saying that if you're going to use a NUMBER, it should be BE encoded
  26 2012-04-28 00:06:19 <etotheipi_> that's all
  27 2012-04-28 00:06:26 <etotheipi_> to enforce consistency
  28 2012-04-28 00:06:30 <sipa> it needs a length as wel
  29 2012-04-28 00:06:32 <sipa> well
  30 2012-04-28 00:06:39 <sipa> unless it is LE
  31 2012-04-28 00:06:39 <etotheipi_> why?
  32 2012-04-28 00:06:59 <sipa> 00000001 or 0001 is different binary
  33 2012-04-28 00:07:00 <etotheipi_> did I miss something?  it's all zero padding on the high end anyway
  34 2012-04-28 00:07:14 <sipa> but both are BE encodings of 1
  35 2012-04-28 00:07:25 <etotheipi_> I thought the spec said that you're expanding it to 32-bytes
  36 2012-04-28 00:07:36 <etotheipi_> I must've misread it, which is why we're having this disagreement
  37 2012-04-28 00:07:40 <sipa> no, 32 bits
  38 2012-04-28 00:07:50 <sipa> 4 bytes
  39 2012-04-28 00:08:11 <sipa> i have no problem changing that, if there is a good reason
  40 2012-04-28 00:08:30 <etotheipi_> oh, I implemented it as 32-bytes everytime
  41 2012-04-28 00:08:40 <etotheipi_> so it would just be zero-padded out to 32-bytes regardless... because I misread that
  42 2012-04-28 00:08:46 <etotheipi_> I'm really getting my bits and bytes mixed up today
  43 2012-04-28 00:09:21 <sipa> :)
  44 2012-04-28 00:10:02 <etotheipi_> I think the constant padding to 32-bytes is 0.01% better
  45 2012-04-28 00:10:17 <etotheipi_> because it guarantees agreement on how numbers are encoded
  46 2012-04-28 00:10:18 <sipa> why not 64 or 128 bytes
  47 2012-04-28 00:10:29 <etotheipi_> because hashes fit nicely into 32-bytes
  48 2012-04-28 00:10:36 <etotheipi_> which satisfies nearly all use cases
  49 2012-04-28 00:10:46 <sipa> SHA512 has 64-byte hashes
  50 2012-04-28 00:10:53 <sipa> and 128-byte blocks
  51 2012-04-28 00:10:55 <etotheipi_> s/all/many/g
  52 2012-04-28 00:11:23 <sipa> i see your point, but 256-bit is not "special"
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  54 2012-04-28 00:11:50 <sipa> and i see no reason to allow 256-bit integers as identifiers
  55 2012-04-28 00:11:58 <etotheipi_> fair enough...
  56 2012-04-28 00:12:05 <sipa> i prefer to say that identifiers are just binaru strings
  57 2012-04-28 00:12:20 <sipa> what those strings are is up to the higher layer
  58 2012-04-28 00:12:51 <etotheipi_> but I think it's worth saying that if numbers are used (such as for enumeration) that they will be BE encoded
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  60 2012-04-28 00:13:39 <etotheipi_> but yes, you can leave it up to the client devs to decide what to do: they can cram shakespeare in there if they want
  61 2012-04-28 00:14:01 <sipa> and the wallet structure will define that account and key nodes have 32-bit or 64-bit integers encoded as 4 or 8 bytes
  62 2012-04-28 00:14:03 <etotheipi_> but all clients will be using enumeration in some form... but then I have to ask why 32-bit is special
  63 2012-04-28 00:14:21 <sipa> it's not, but there must be a common encoding
  64 2012-04-28 00:14:40 <sipa> hell, lets just encode them as decimal ascii-encoded strings
  65 2012-04-28 00:14:45 <sipa> to piss off luke
  66 2012-04-28 00:14:47 <etotheipi_> lol
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  69 2012-04-28 00:16:11 <etotheipi_> well you have 65-byte uncompressed key, how about constant-padding up to 63 bytes to so it fits nicely into an HMAC-SHA512 block
  70 2012-04-28 00:16:21 <etotheipi_> 63 is ugly, but it is special
  71 2012-04-28 00:16:36 <sipa> HMAC will pad it anyway
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  73 2012-04-28 00:17:28 <etotheipi_> ehh... this is a pretty minor, mostly-arbitrary decision... I'll just leave it to you and follow :)
  74 2012-04-28 00:17:35 <sipa> i
  75 2012-04-28 00:17:48 <sipa> sorry, typo
  76 2012-04-28 00:18:12 <sipa> i did not intend to suggest using imagimary numbers
  77 2012-04-28 00:18:18 <etotheipi_> so the way the spec is now, the integer will be padded to 32-BITs
  78 2012-04-28 00:18:39 <sipa> yes, but i like changing CKD to take a bytestring
  79 2012-04-28 00:18:51 <etotheipi_> agreed
  80 2012-04-28 00:18:55 <sipa> and move the 32-bit thing to the wallet structure
  81 2012-04-28 00:19:26 <sipa> i also like doing key derivation always using the uncompressed key
  82 2012-04-28 00:20:15 <etotheipi_> great, mainly because I already implemented it that way :)
  83 2012-04-28 00:21:21 <sipa> it's slightly less clean in a way, since it makes the derivation aware of compressedness
  84 2012-04-28 00:22:16 <etotheipi_> I think removing 100% of ambiguity/uncertainty in the process if worth it
  85 2012-04-28 00:22:22 <etotheipi_> *is worth it
  86 2012-04-28 00:22:38 <sipa> agree
  87 2012-04-28 00:22:53 <etotheipi_> and implementation-wise, it's pretty clean:  my uncompress func returns the input if it's already uncompressed
  88 2012-04-28 00:23:03 <etotheipi_> so it's one extra line of code
  89 2012-04-28 00:24:31 <sipa> etotheipi_: btw, i really like having two implementations at the same time :)
  90 2012-04-28 00:25:17 <etotheipi_> sipa: great.  I just reached a super-stable dev milestone in Armory... so I thought it was a good time to upgrade my wallet spec and break it all :)
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  99 2012-04-28 00:58:03 <etotheipi_> alright sipa:  here's the update output:  https://gist.github.com/2513316
 100 2012-04-28 00:59:58 <sipa> etotheipi_: i'll implement a similar test in a few days
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 111 2012-04-28 01:26:03 <luke-jr> sipa: y troll?
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 114 2012-04-28 01:41:06 <etotheipi_> what happened to roconner?  I haven't heard from him in months
 115 2012-04-28 01:47:22 <sipa> he's often in #haskell
 116 2012-04-28 01:52:02 <etotheipi_> anyone have moral objections to using VAR_INTs in new data formats?  (such as wallet files)
 117 2012-04-28 01:54:20 <etotheipi_> (or did other devs vow to never touch them more than they have to?)
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 119 2012-04-28 01:56:32 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: I think it would be better to use some varint standard, but I'll admit to using bitcoin varints in new stuff myself…
 120 2012-04-28 01:56:56 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: I'd pose the question on the ML
 121 2012-04-28 01:58:24 <sipa> bitcoin's varint is silly :)
 122 2012-04-28 01:58:38 <sipa> and i don't mind using varints, but only in storage-size-limited settings
 123 2012-04-28 01:59:59 <etotheipi_> well maybe that's it... my wallet file is not really size limited:  at 250 bytes for a block of address data, it really doesn't matter if I reserve 4 bytes for each of two fields that are normally 1 byte
 124 2012-04-28 02:00:36 <luke-jr> IMO, the only problem with bitcoin varints are that they have limited size :p
 125 2012-04-28 02:00:56 <luke-jr> and aren't a standard
 126 2012-04-28 02:01:01 <luke-jr> but nothing bitcoin is standard :/
 127 2012-04-28 02:01:06 <etotheipi_> doesn't BER/DER address this?
 128 2012-04-28 02:01:14 <etotheipi_> I don't know enough about it, though
 129 2012-04-28 02:01:16 <luke-jr> that would be ironic
 130 2012-04-28 02:01:58 <etotheipi_> why? I thought I remember seeing something like that
 131 2012-04-28 02:02:15 <sipa> the best varint format i've heard is one where you encode the number as something in base 128, and add a one bit if another byte follows
 132 2012-04-28 02:02:44 <luke-jr> sipa: I think that's Google protobuf
 133 2012-04-28 02:03:02 <sipa> luke-jr: i certainly heard about it earlier :)
 134 2012-04-28 02:03:06 <luke-jr> occasionally I abuse UTF-8 as a varint <.<
 135 2012-04-28 02:03:18 <etotheipi_> protobuf is pretty smooth
 136 2012-04-28 02:03:24 <etotheipi_> but I don't want to use it for wallets
 137 2012-04-28 02:03:32 <etotheipi_> I want full 100% control over the binary structure
 138 2012-04-28 02:04:02 <sipa> luke-jr: perldoc -f pack
 139 2012-04-28 02:04:05 <sipa> "w"
 140 2012-04-28 02:04:35 <luke-jr> nice
 141 2012-04-28 02:04:48 <sipa> though that's a bit inefficient still
 142 2012-04-28 02:05:00 <luke-jr> not as bad as my UTF-8 abuse :P
 143 2012-04-28 02:05:21 <sipa> it still allows a single number to be encoded in multiple ways
 144 2012-04-28 02:05:30 <luke-jr> no, it doesn't…
 145 2012-04-28 02:05:34 <sipa> sure does
 146 2012-04-28 02:05:41 <luke-jr> it specifies that only the shortest possible is valid
 147 2012-04-28 02:05:51 <sipa> oh, yes, sure
 148 2012-04-28 02:05:54 <luke-jr> "with as few digits as possible"
 149 2012-04-28 02:06:01 <sipa> it may not be valid
 150 2012-04-28 02:06:27 <sipa> but if it isn't, there is still a byte sequence that would decode to the same value (even though not in a valid way) that becomes unused
 151 2012-04-28 02:06:38 <sipa> so there is reducancy
 152 2012-04-28 02:06:46 <sipa> and it's trivial to fix that
 153 2012-04-28 02:08:12 <sipa> i once implemented a non-redundant variant of this in bitcoin's serialize.h, but ended up never using it
 154 2012-04-28 02:13:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: Just be glad that it doesn't use http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1019854&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fxpls%2Fabs_all.jsp%3Farnumber%3D1019854
 155 2012-04-28 02:16:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: haha
 156 2012-04-28 02:17:55 * sipa proposes encoding pairs of integers x and y as the encoding of 1/2*x^2 + xy + 1/2*y^2 + 3/2*x + 1/2*y
 157 2012-04-28 02:18:09 <sipa> pairs of non-negative integers, that is
 158 2012-04-28 02:19:17 upb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 159 2012-04-28 02:21:38 <etotheipi_> how do I know that is a true bijection between (x,y) and the output?
 160 2012-04-28 02:22:33 <copumpkin> you prove it!
 161 2012-04-28 02:22:40 denisx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 162 2012-04-28 02:22:44 * copumpkin hands etotheipi_ a proof assistant
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 165 2012-04-28 02:32:08 <etotheipi_> I like the idea, and I know such a bijection provably exists... I have just never actually seen one (or pondered what it would look like)
 166 2012-04-28 02:32:24 <etotheipi_> presumably, sipa knows something I don't, though :)
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 176 2012-04-28 02:47:51 <sipa> etotheipi_: it actually is a bijection from N^2 to N
 177 2012-04-28 02:48:22 <sipa> a very known one
 178 2012-04-28 02:50:16 <etotheipi_> sipa: I know one exists, I've just never seen it
 179 2012-04-28 02:50:22 <etotheipi_> (I also never went looking)
 180 2012-04-28 02:50:50 <etotheipi_> is the inverse function "easy"?'
 181 2012-04-28 02:52:54 <sipa> if you have integer division, yes
 182 2012-04-28 02:53:32 <sipa> oh, and square root
 183 2012-04-28 02:53:33 <etotheipi_> well, I meant... is it computationally efficient?
 184 2012-04-28 02:54:03 <gmaxwell> compared to the one based on the Goldbach's conjecture? :)
 185 2012-04-28 02:54:49 <gmaxwell> (well I suppose that one was cheap to decode)
 186 2012-04-28 02:55:02 <etotheipi_> so in practical terms, I'm probably assuming x and y are 32 bytes each, so I could just as easily make a 64-bit number and copy x into the first 32 and y into the second 32
 187 2012-04-28 02:55:09 <etotheipi_> *32-BITS
 188 2012-04-28 02:55:33 <sipa> etotheipi_: of course
 189 2012-04-28 02:55:38 <etotheipi_> but say instead I decide to encode x,y like this, which would still require 64-bit output
 190 2012-04-28 02:55:54 <etotheipi_> how much of a hit am I taking compared to the simple solution?
 191 2012-04-28 02:56:18 <etotheipi_> I guess, the difference is I can encode a 12-bit x and 48-bit y into the same 64-bit number
 192 2012-04-28 02:56:56 <sipa> you lose one extra bit
 193 2012-04-28 02:57:11 <sipa> or maybe slightly more
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 205 2012-04-28 03:36:18 <GTRsdk> I probably should have asked here... Do you make any money off of Bitcoin?
 206 2012-04-28 03:38:08 <splatster> GTRsdk: It depends on who you ask.
 207 2012-04-28 03:38:49 <GTRsdk> How do you make money off of  it (if you do)?
 208 2012-04-28 03:39:14 <splatster> I personally do make money off of investing.
 209 2012-04-28 03:39:47 <splatster> I run, with the help of smickles, a bitcoin investment fund.
 210 2012-04-28 03:40:10 <splatster> I also do investing with my personal bitcoin assets.
 211 2012-04-28 03:40:45 <splatster> And with that, I do make money through the use of bitcoin.
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 213 2012-04-28 03:42:21 <splatster> GTRsdk: There are also people who mine bitcoins in order to make money.
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 313 2012-04-28 09:02:46 <Joric> etotheipi_, constructing / editing / sending transactions using pure js http://brainwallet.org/#transactions
 314 2012-04-28 09:02:58 <Joric> just checked it works fine
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 333 2012-04-28 09:49:04 <Joric> ThomasV, http://brainwallet.org/#transactions <- transaction constructor / sender (draft)
 334 2012-04-28 09:50:20 <ThomasV> Joric: what is your goal?
 335 2012-04-28 09:51:25 <Joric> having a good time )
 336 2012-04-28 09:52:22 <Joric> just studying the protocol
 337 2012-04-28 09:52:45 <ThomasV> sounds phishy
 338 2012-04-28 09:53:25 <Joric> you got phishy ears
 339 2012-04-28 09:55:40 <ThomasV> heh, why did you first deny being the author of that site?
 340 2012-04-28 09:58:44 <Joric> i'm terrified of how lousy it's written
 341 2012-04-28 10:02:37 <ThomasV> oh but you're not terrified of criticizing other people's code, though
 342 2012-04-28 10:02:45 <ThomasV> honestly I do not trust you
 343 2012-04-28 10:03:03 <ThomasV> I believe this is a shameless fishing attempt
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 350 2012-04-28 10:12:00 <Joric> huh i just discovered this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=51252.0
 351 2012-04-28 10:12:10 <paulo_> how do I choose another directory aside from /appdata/roaming ?
 352 2012-04-28 10:12:32 <Joric> from the dark pre-blockchaininfo times
 353 2012-04-28 10:12:38 devrandom has joined
 354 2012-04-28 10:12:46 <paulo_> oh wait not really a dev question.
 355 2012-04-28 10:13:00 <Joric> have to make a backup implementation using bbe in case if bci will be down
 356 2012-04-28 10:22:36 <paulo_> what version was mining removed from gui?
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 386 2012-04-28 12:13:21 <luke-jr> sipa: so anyhow, I have a backtrace of addrman crashing bitcoind…
 387 2012-04-28 12:13:35 Xunie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 388 2012-04-28 12:13:54 <sipa> luke-jr: show me
 389 2012-04-28 12:15:14 <luke-jr> is there a bug open for it already?
 390 2012-04-28 12:15:43 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1065 maybe
 391 2012-04-28 12:16:01 <luke-jr> nope, diff
 392 2012-04-28 12:16:08 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1156
 393 2012-04-28 12:16:31 Xunie has joined
 394 2012-04-28 12:17:19 <luke-jr> I presume the only way to get a segfault here is probably a missing mutex lock?
 395 2012-04-28 12:17:33 <luke-jr> anything to do before I close gdb? ;)
 396 2012-04-28 12:18:38 <sipa> sec
 397 2012-04-28 12:19:26 <sipa> a missing mutex is pretty much impossible
 398 2012-04-28 12:19:35 <sipa> but it would explain things of cource
 399 2012-04-28 12:19:37 <sipa> course
 400 2012-04-28 12:19:40 <sipa> sec
 401 2012-04-28 12:19:57 <luke-jr> should I backtrace other threads?
 402 2012-04-28 12:19:59 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened issue 1156 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1156>
 403 2012-04-28 12:21:10 paulo_ has joined
 404 2012-04-28 12:21:44 <luke-jr> hmm, that's the only thread in addrman
 405 2012-04-28 12:23:12 <sipa> yes, certainly
 406 2012-04-28 12:23:25 <sipa> can you go to #6, and print nOldest
 407 2012-04-28 12:24:42 <luke-jr> $1 = <optimized out>
 408 2012-04-28 12:24:45 * luke-jr facepalms
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 410 2012-04-28 12:26:45 <sipa> all public methods of CAddrMan lock cs, so two threads in addrman simultaneously should be impossible
 411 2012-04-28 12:27:48 <luke-jr> they're not.
 412 2012-04-28 12:27:55 <sipa> ?
 413 2012-04-28 12:27:58 <luke-jr> I updated the issue with backtraces on all threads
 414 2012-04-28 12:28:10 <luke-jr> this is the only one inside addrman
 415 2012-04-28 12:28:47 <sipa> could you try compiling your node with -DDEBUG_ADDRMAN, and hope the error appears again?
 416 2012-04-28 12:28:54 <luke-jr> sure
 417 2012-04-28 12:28:56 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 418 2012-04-28 12:29:13 <sipa> it will probably take a while
 419 2012-04-28 12:29:29 <sipa> given the low frequency of addrman-related error reports
 420 2012-04-28 12:29:40 <luke-jr> it's been happening a lot on this node
 421 2012-04-28 12:30:05 <luke-jr> this is #bitcoin-watch 's
 422 2012-04-28 12:30:17 devrandom has joined
 423 2012-04-28 12:30:53 <luke-jr> also doing -O0 -ggdb
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 425 2012-04-28 12:32:09 <sipa> eh, and still optimized away?
 426 2012-04-28 12:32:09 <luke-jr> sipa: fyi, this crash corrupted addr.dat too
 427 2012-04-28 12:32:21 <luke-jr> sipa: no, I mean on the new build :P
 428 2012-04-28 12:32:52 <sipa> that makes me assume the actual corruption occurred earlier
 429 2012-04-28 12:33:03 <sipa> the corrupted state somehow got serialized
 430 2012-04-28 12:33:13 <sipa> and then caused an error a bit later
 431 2012-04-28 12:33:19 <luke-jr> hmm
 432 2012-04-28 12:35:21 <sipa> DEBUG_ADDRMAN should detect corruptions immediately
 433 2012-04-28 12:35:37 <luke-jr> and log them? or assert-fail?
 434 2012-04-28 12:36:43 SphericalCow has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 435 2012-04-28 12:37:51 <sipa> assert-fail
 436 2012-04-28 12:38:18 <sipa> with an error number
 437 2012-04-28 12:47:30 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen my gitian builds of 0.6.1rc1 don't match yours at all
 438 2012-04-28 12:47:30 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 439 2012-04-28 12:48:31 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 440 2012-04-28 12:48:55 devrandom has joined
 441 2012-04-28 12:50:18 * luke-jr does a gitian build of 0.6.1rc1 to compare
 442 2012-04-28 12:51:35 <sipa> b9edb45129d44fb78d34986c4e24965f4fa9d4bb56b96390e045d95d113d59a5  bitcoin-deps-0.0.4.zip
 443 2012-04-28 12:51:56 <sipa> ah, those are identical for gavin
 444 2012-04-28 12:56:57 <luke-jr> sipa: I think this is GitHub's fault.
 445 2012-04-28 12:57:17 <luke-jr> v0.6.1rc1 is a different rev on my gitian VM and dev system
 446 2012-04-28 12:57:56 <luke-jr> wait no, just had to force a refetch
 447 2012-04-28 13:00:15 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,tslb
 448 2012-04-28 13:00:16 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 week, 3 days, 15 hours, 36 minutes, and 4 seconds
 449 2012-04-28 13:00:24 <Diablo-D3> whats the real value?
 450 2012-04-28 13:01:06 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: you broke it by abusing power again
 451 2012-04-28 13:02:18 <sipa> luke-jr: same problem that gavin had, it seems
 452 2012-04-28 13:03:02 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
 453 2012-04-28 13:03:23 <sipa> his build is identified as v0.6.1rc1-2-g0acbe31-dirty-beta
 454 2012-04-28 13:03:33 <Diablo-D3> >dirty
 455 2012-04-28 13:03:49 <Diablo-D3> needs more .gitignore
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 459 2012-04-28 13:07:13 <sipa> ;;later tell your build is identified as v0.6.1rc1-2-g0acbe31-dirty-beta, so it seems the git directory on your build system didn't have the latest 0.6.1rc1 tag
 460 2012-04-28 13:07:13 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 461 2012-04-28 13:07:21 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen  your build is identified as v0.6.1rc1-2-g0acbe31-dirty-beta, so it seems the git directory on your build system didn't have the latest 0.6.1rc1 tag
 462 2012-04-28 13:07:22 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 463 2012-04-28 13:08:15 <luke-jr> sipa: err, why not?
 464 2012-04-28 13:08:23 <luke-jr> 0acbe31 (tag: v0.6.1rc1
 465 2012-04-28 13:08:49 <sipa> why not what?
 466 2012-04-28 13:10:53 <luke-jr> except for the dirty, that looks like the right tag commit
 467 2012-04-28 13:11:20 <sipa> luke-jr: it should be v0.6.1rc1 (which is equal to v0.6.1rc1-0-g0acbe31)
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 472 2012-04-28 13:11:47 <sipa> but his build env still had the old v0.6.1rc1 tag, and git describe used that as base for generating the description
 473 2012-04-28 13:11:49 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 474 2012-04-28 13:12:03 <sipa> the 2 means "two commits since"
 475 2012-04-28 13:12:23 <sipa> so the commit is correct, but the tag used to do the description isn't
 476 2012-04-28 13:13:06 devrandom has joined
 477 2012-04-28 13:13:40 <sipa> probably caused by not pulling in all tags, only branches
 478 2012-04-28 13:13:44 drazak has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 479 2012-04-28 13:14:01 <luke-jr> i c
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 483 2012-04-28 13:22:13 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 1024
 484 2012-04-28 13:22:14 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1024 Khps, given current difficulty of 1508589.6720603 , is 0.000682735856406 BTC per day and 2.84473273502e-05 BTC per hour.
 485 2012-04-28 13:22:26 Cory has joined
 486 2012-04-28 13:22:30 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 102400
 487 2012-04-28 13:22:31 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 102400 Khps, given current difficulty of 1508589.6720603 , is 0.0682735856406 BTC per day and 0.00284473273502 BTC per hour.
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 500 2012-04-28 13:55:15 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: rebroad opened issue 1157 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1157>
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 511 2012-04-28 14:30:50 <etotheipi_> sipa: for compressed public keys, are you encoding the private keys [0x80 + priv32 + 0x01 + chksum4] ?
 512 2012-04-28 14:31:02 <etotheipi_> where the checksum is over the first 34 bytes?
 513 2012-04-28 14:32:08 <sipa> etotheipi_: yes (though i consider the checksum part of the base58 encoding)
 514 2012-04-28 14:36:30 <etotheipi_> okay... I'm mildly annoyed that I can't decide how to handle this extra byte... it was nice and compact to have just 32-bytes for the priv key
 515 2012-04-28 14:37:32 <etotheipi_> if I throw it in... I now need 64 bytes for encryption of 33 bytes, or I leave it out, and manually maintain a flag which is likely to have logic bugs
 516 2012-04-28 14:37:53 <etotheipi_> ooh, it's only 48 bytes, actually.... AES256 has a blocksize of 16, right?
 517 2012-04-28 14:38:03 <sipa> yes
 518 2012-04-28 14:38:39 <sipa> afaik the satoshi client does not encrypt the compressed flag
 519 2012-04-28 14:38:52 <sipa> it doesn't even store it, it just looks at the size of the public key
 520 2012-04-28 14:39:02 <sipa> gmaxwell:
 521 2012-04-28 14:39:03 <sipa> -rwxrwxr-x 1 pw pw 3466848 2012-04-28 16:35 bitcoin-qt-flto
 522 2012-04-28 14:39:03 <sipa> -rwxrwxr-x 1 pw pw 2926280 2012-04-28 16:35 bitcoin-qt-flto-stripped
 523 2012-04-28 14:39:03 <sipa> -rwxrwxr-x 1 pw pw 5682399 2012-04-28 16:30 bitcoin-qt-noflto
 524 2012-04-28 14:39:03 <sipa> -rwxrwxr-x 1 pw pw 4185480 2012-04-28 16:35 bitcoin-qt-noflto-stripped
 525 2012-04-28 14:39:50 <etotheipi_> okay, good to know...
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 534 2012-04-28 15:01:40 <etotheipi_> sipa: any preference on naming of HMAC-512(c_par, K_par)[:4]?  I'm just referring to it as an "ID"
 535 2012-04-28 15:01:45 <etotheipi_> but it's not meant to be unique
 536 2012-04-28 15:01:48 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 537 2012-04-28 15:02:38 <etotheipi_> another mainly-arbitrary point...
 538 2012-04-28 15:10:29 <sipa> fingerprint?
 539 2012-04-28 15:11:04 <etotheipi_> I like that
 540 2012-04-28 15:11:08 <etotheipi_> besides the fact it's long
 541 2012-04-28 15:11:13 <sipa> (id seems to imply that it uniquely identifies a key, although even in gpg a key id is shorter than a fingerprint)
 542 2012-04-28 15:11:58 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 543 2012-04-28 15:12:19 <etotheipi_> agreed... I think ID kind of implies uniqueness, even though it frequently isn't
 544 2012-04-28 15:12:44 devrandom has joined
 545 2012-04-28 15:13:37 <etotheipi_> so I think I'll go with "fingerprint"
 546 2012-04-28 15:14:05 <etotheipi_> even though getParentFingerprint() doesn't fit well into my 80-width columns
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 560 2012-04-28 15:25:39 <sipa> etotheipi_: hmm, turning the second argument of CKD into a bytestring is problematic for the serialization format
 561 2012-04-28 15:25:50 <etotheipi_> sipa: I was just thinking that
 562 2012-04-28 15:26:09 <etotheipi_> I was going to reconcile it in my brain before bringing it up though :)
 563 2012-04-28 15:26:51 <sipa> you could say if the 32-bit number there is 0xFFFFFFFF, it is derived using a byte sequence and is non-enumeratable
 564 2012-04-28 15:27:06 <sipa> but that also makes it non-verifiable
 565 2012-04-28 15:27:27 <etotheipi_> my concern is, I want my address/key serialization to be constant size
 566 2012-04-28 15:27:41 <etotheipi_> so I don't want to have arbitrary-sized fields in the format
 567 2012-04-28 15:27:55 <sipa> ic
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 569 2012-04-28 15:28:03 <etotheipi_> It's more of a preference though...
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 571 2012-04-28 15:28:12 <etotheipi_> I figured out why 32-bytes is special
 572 2012-04-28 15:28:19 <sipa> for serialization formats, i care less about constant size
 573 2012-04-28 15:28:30 <sipa> but it's not worth it here
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 575 2012-04-28 15:28:56 <etotheipi_> because 32-bytes is universally accepted as there-will-be-no-collisions-here-ever
 576 2012-04-28 15:29:15 <sipa> meh, you get that at 20 bytes even
 577 2012-04-28 15:29:22 <sipa> though maybe not anymore in 20 years
 578 2012-04-28 15:29:24 <etotheipi_> not necessarily
 579 2012-04-28 15:31:18 <sipa> the entire bitcoin network did "only" around 2^68 so far
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 581 2012-04-28 15:31:23 <sipa> hash operations
 582 2012-04-28 15:31:40 <etotheipi_> oh yeah, I actually calculated that at one point
 583 2012-04-28 15:31:58 <sipa> no need to calculate it, bitcoind just tells you :0
 584 2012-04-28 15:32:14 <sipa> SetBestChain: new best=00000000000002ea9164  height=177607  work=306752139312713168912
 585 2012-04-28 15:32:30 <sipa> work is the expected number of hash operations in the chain so far
 586 2012-04-28 15:32:56 <etotheipi_> but isn't collision "probability" proportional to sqrt(N) where N is the size of the space?
 587 2012-04-28 15:33:07 <sipa> yes
 588 2012-04-28 15:33:20 <etotheipi_> so 20-bytes is like 10-bytes in terms of collisions
 589 2012-04-28 15:33:28 <etotheipi_> which is still high
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 591 2012-04-28 15:34:23 <sipa> collision probability is 1-e(-n^2 / (2*d))
 592 2012-04-28 15:34:34 <etotheipi_> oh yeah, I had searched the blockchain and found the hardest hash, ever:  it's block 125552
 593 2012-04-28 15:34:48 <sipa> with n the number of elements, and d the size of the space
 594 2012-04-28 15:34:49 <etotheipi_> it would've been valid even at a difficulty of 35 billion
 595 2012-04-28 15:35:43 <sipa> not too surprising.. if you have 1000 blocks at difficulty d, on average 1 will be good enough to beat difficulty 1000*d
 596 2012-04-28 15:35:46 <etotheipi_> though that was 8 months ago, I should check again to see if there's a new one
 597 2012-04-28 15:35:58 <sipa> well... not exactly sure about the math there
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 599 2012-04-28 15:38:35 <sipa> this is better: if you have 1000 blocks at difficulty d, there is a 50% chance that at least one would have beaten difficulty 1443*d
 600 2012-04-28 15:39:27 Joric has joined
 601 2012-04-28 15:40:29 <seco> btw blockchain it would be great idea to add datestamp of a tx 1st seen in blockchain to satoshi client: its really irritating to catchup and see transactions coming in with current datestamp, but were inititated ages ago instantly getting a bunch of confirmations while going on the catch-up... @luke-jr dont have to be necesairy a revert, but maybe printing both datestamps?; Printing local timestamp does destroy the "timeline" one would understand the
 602 2012-04-28 15:40:29 <seco> catchup-process i think
 603 2012-04-28 15:43:17 <seco> By sticking to a date, i think network-date should be always used in bitcoin world: Also if tooltip mentions "catching up 2days ago": I mean what 2 days ago, if "the transaction just came in in this minute"?
 604 2012-04-28 15:43:44 Bigpiggy01Mining has joined
 605 2012-04-28 15:47:22 <etotheipi_> damn, 50k blocks later, 125552 still has the lowest hash
 606 2012-04-28 15:48:06 <etotheipi_> if you do 2^67.1 hashes, 50% chance you'll find a hash more difficult than that one
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 614 2012-04-28 15:54:19 <etotheipi_> sipa: okay, I just updated the CKD test vectors with "fingerprints"
 615 2012-04-28 15:55:43 <sipa> etotheipi_: i think i'd like to keep the CKD parameter a 32-bit number, as there is no practical benefit to allowing more, and it has a nicer serialization
 616 2012-04-28 15:56:06 <etotheipi_> sipa: that's fine
 617 2012-04-28 15:57:14 <etotheipi_> users can choose 0xFFFFFFFF and then their own supplemental information if they're going to use bytestrings
 618 2012-04-28 15:58:23 <etotheipi_> so basically you're saying that only enumeration up to 32-bit numbers is defined
 619 2012-04-28 15:58:46 <etotheipi_> but there's nothing stopping devs from doing more with it outside the spec
 620 2012-04-28 15:59:32 <sipa> the only question is whether the serialization should support it
 621 2012-04-28 15:59:41 <sipa> by calling 0xFFFFFFFF special
 622 2012-04-28 15:59:54 <etotheipi_> well if you go back to my original idea of 32-BYTES, you could specify everything is allowed
 623 2012-04-28 16:00:05 <etotheipi_> any bytestrings will just be the hash of the bytestring
 624 2012-04-28 16:00:16 <sipa> sigh
 625 2012-04-28 16:00:19 <etotheipi_> haha
 626 2012-04-28 16:00:28 <sipa> there is no technical problem in allowing *ANY* bytestring
 627 2012-04-28 16:00:48 <sipa> HMAC already performs an extra hashing step to get it to fit in a hash block
 628 2012-04-28 16:01:06 <sipa> the problem is whether this is supported by the serialization
 629 2012-04-28 16:01:08 <sipa> and how
 630 2012-04-28 16:01:11 <etotheipi_> understood
 631 2012-04-28 16:01:27 <etotheipi_> but if the point of the serializing that value is so that the user can verify that the key is truly a child of the parent
 632 2012-04-28 16:01:44 <sipa> yes
 633 2012-04-28 16:01:58 <etotheipi_> then people using bytestrings need their own, separate serialization
 634 2012-04-28 16:02:16 <etotheipi_> if you only put 4 bytes in that serialization, it's semi-unique, but it doesn't help them do that verification
 635 2012-04-28 16:02:34 <sipa> unless only 32-bits are allowed :)
 636 2012-04-28 16:03:51 <sipa> i'd somehow have liked m/N/"extern"/K
 637 2012-04-28 16:04:32 <sipa> one possibility it to limit it to 8-byte strings instead of arbitrary strings, and encode numbers inside those
 638 2012-04-28 16:04:44 <etotheipi_> right, but my point is that 32-bits is not sufficient for the full set of usecases
 639 2012-04-28 16:04:56 <sipa> would 64 bit suffice?
 640 2012-04-28 16:05:38 <sipa> (i think 2^32 subnodes will suffice in almost all cases, and in others you can just recurse one level further)
 641 2012-04-28 16:06:44 <etotheipi_> you mean "escaping" the 32-bit restriction by using 0xFFFFFFFF and then appending extra data?
 642 2012-04-28 16:07:10 <sipa> no
 643 2012-04-28 16:07:39 <sipa> if you need m/(5*2^32 + 7), use m/5/7 instead
 644 2012-04-28 16:08:08 <etotheipi_> oh
 645 2012-04-28 16:08:32 <etotheipi_> then you have a variable depth depending on your input
 646 2012-04-28 16:08:39 Maged has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 647 2012-04-28 16:09:08 <etotheipi_> am I making this harder than it needs to be?
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 649 2012-04-28 16:09:13 <sipa> if you know you need 64-bits in a particular use case, start with 2x 32-bit in the first place
 650 2012-04-28 16:09:33 <etotheipi_> all I want is collision resistance when hashes of arbitrary bytestrings are used
 651 2012-04-28 16:09:57 <sipa> in the representation?
 652 2012-04-28 16:10:21 <sipa> you can't have collision resistance with only 32 bits of hash info
 653 2012-04-28 16:10:31 <etotheipi_> understood, that's why I've been fighting 32-bits
 654 2012-04-28 16:10:53 <sipa> but are you fighting the 32-bits fingerprint or the 32-bits child identifier?
 655 2012-04-28 16:10:58 <sipa> because it seems you're mixing them up
 656 2012-04-28 16:11:17 <etotheipi_> no, I don't mind if the fingerprints are not unique, those have a different purpose
 657 2012-04-28 16:11:29 <sipa> then which collision resistance are you talking about?
 658 2012-04-28 16:11:39 <etotheipi_> because the fingerprint is different than what goes into CKD(KEY, ???)
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 660 2012-04-28 16:11:54 <sipa> yes of course, ??? is what i called the child identifier
 661 2012-04-28 16:12:16 <sipa> but i don't see which other collision resistance could be a problem
 662 2012-04-28 16:12:20 <etotheipi_> so I'm only talking about cild identifiers
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 664 2012-04-28 16:13:09 <etotheipi_> if I decided to use ac child ID that that is 1000 ASCII chars long, there is no way for me to store that in the serialization in a collisions resistent way
 665 2012-04-28 16:13:34 <sipa> so you are talking about the serialization?
 666 2012-04-28 16:13:36 <etotheipi_> but if you spec that any byte strings should use the hash of the child ID, and then the serialization has 32-bytes, then you constant
 667 2012-04-28 16:13:42 <etotheipi_> yes
 668 2012-04-28 16:14:11 <sipa> but the serialization is never collision resistant anyway
 669 2012-04-28 16:14:37 <sipa> as it uses the parent's fingerprint, which is too short to provide collision resistance
 670 2012-04-28 16:14:52 <etotheipi_> but if all I have is a serialization and a parent node serialization, how am I supposed to verify that the child belongs to the parent?
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 673 2012-04-28 16:15:20 <sipa> ah, yes, that's something else
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 675 2012-04-28 16:15:41 <sipa> you can't of course, once the child id is not contained anymore in the serialization
 676 2012-04-28 16:16:10 <sipa> which is why i advocate only using 32-bits of child identification in the first place, and using an extra level if you need more
 677 2012-04-28 16:16:58 <sipa> you can obviously go outside the spec if you want 1000-char ascii child id's, but those become not representable by the serialization
 678 2012-04-28 16:17:40 <etotheipi_> but it is if you spec that bytestrings will be hashed to 32-bytes and use 32-bytes in the serialization
 679 2012-04-28 16:17:42 <sipa> one way out is indeed making the special serialized child id 0xFFFFFFFF mean that the child id is unknown/unrepresentable, but that is no good if you still want the ability to link children to their parents
 680 2012-04-28 16:18:07 <etotheipi_> but I agree that 32-bytes is excessive for all serializations
 681 2012-04-28 16:18:08 <sipa> why waste 28 bytes, for something for which i don't see a use case?
 682 2012-04-28 16:18:33 <sipa> i'm not sure how important that linkability is even
 683 2012-04-28 16:19:03 <sipa> you need it for leafs and for accounts, because you need to be able to calculate the "next" sibling
 684 2012-04-28 16:19:17 <sipa> but those have enumerable identifiers anyway
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 687 2012-04-28 16:21:30 <etotheipi_> sipa, I agree about the necessity of linkability
 688 2012-04-28 16:21:43 <sipa> and the most flexible solution is probably just make the serialization format variable
 689 2012-04-28 16:22:00 <sipa> since you don't often serialize non-enumerable child keys anyway
 690 2012-04-28 16:22:06 <sipa> they are non-enumerable for a reason
 691 2012-04-28 16:22:09 <etotheipi_> my point was if you make them all 32-bytes than you can never worry about it again...
 692 2012-04-28 16:22:31 <sipa> or 20 bytes
 693 2012-04-28 16:22:33 <sipa> or 64 bytes
 694 2012-04-28 16:22:35 <sipa> or 128 bytes
 695 2012-04-28 16:22:47 <etotheipi_> but you're right it seems like a waste of space for less-common use-cases
 696 2012-04-28 16:23:26 <etotheipi_> but you don't need more than 32 to guarantee collision resistance
 697 2012-04-28 16:24:22 <sipa> i can argue that 20 suffices as well :)
 698 2012-04-28 16:24:51 <sipa> or 8, if you limit the scope of possible collisions
 699 2012-04-28 16:25:30 <etotheipi_> I disagree
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 703 2012-04-28 16:26:27 <etotheipi_> let's go back to 32-bits, anyone that wants to do something than enumeration can do something else... I actually do like your idea of recursing...
 704 2012-04-28 16:26:52 <etotheipi_> though I haven't thought about the consequences of arbitrary-depth chains
 705 2012-04-28 16:33:23 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 1159 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1159>
 706 2012-04-28 16:34:50 <sipa> seco: ^
 707 2012-04-28 16:35:28 <seco> ah
 708 2012-04-28 16:36:04 <seco> ohh, thanks sipa: great to see my argumentation seems coherent :)
 709 2012-04-28 16:42:03 <seco> maybe im not alone, but i think at the end nobody cares about the rescan-time: Could be redone anytime in future after dataloss and date of a static transactions would change to date of "restoration of backup", showing restored transactions coming in minute by minute, which is not what a user would like to see when they talk about a tx "last week" with their counterparty :)
 710 2012-04-28 16:42:49 <seco> "oh wait i just restored backup: i guess you mean the tx 2hours ago" :P
 711 2012-04-28 16:43:04 Karmaon has joined
 712 2012-04-28 16:43:10 <sipa> well, the block chain is not a wallet backup
 713 2012-04-28 16:44:25 <seco> i know, im just argueing as ordinary users would do :)
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 717 2012-04-28 17:10:48 <seco> another thing which should be fixed is the annoying time needed for shutdown-process of satoshi client (for example https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1012): If the Speed up block downloading dbenv.set_cachesize generates 50% longer time for cleaning up on exit, then why not only calling this method if client finds out he needs more then (example:)50block to catchup? *hackish-smile*
 718 2012-04-28 17:11:52 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 719 2012-04-28 17:12:35 <splatster> seco: Why not do the cleanup after downloading the blocks needed to catch up?
 720 2012-04-28 17:12:45 devrandom has joined
 721 2012-04-28 17:12:50 <sipa> seco: 0.6.1 shuts down in seconds ;)
 722 2012-04-28 17:13:09 <sipa> or less
 723 2012-04-28 17:13:21 <splatster> sipa: Even after being run for days?
 724 2012-04-28 17:13:30 <sipa> should be, yes
 725 2012-04-28 17:13:44 <splatster> It seems the longer I have 0.6.0 open, the exponentially longer it takes to shut down.
 726 2012-04-28 17:14:01 <sipa> it depends mostly on the size of the block chain index
 727 2012-04-28 17:14:10 <seco> splatster: client node needs to constantly evaluate new blocks: there is always need to NOT place chunks of data on slow disk, but its some kind of politics to decide how many redownloadable data can be destroyed on a cleanexit not to take half minute for a shutdown process
 728 2012-04-28 17:14:32 barmstrong has joined
 729 2012-04-28 17:14:44 <splatster> And I have a hybrid SSD and I am 100% certain that the block index is stored on the SSD portion of my drive, yet it still takes forever to shut down.
 730 2012-04-28 17:14:45 <sipa> seco: the slow part was calling lsn_reset (which prepares a file for being moved to another database environment)
 731 2012-04-28 17:14:51 <seco> sipa: cool, i highly await relase then :))
 732 2012-04-28 17:15:14 <sipa> 0.6.0 called this function at shutdown for all database, including the block chain database
 733 2012-04-28 17:15:23 <sipa> and that function takes time proportional to the size of the file
 734 2012-04-28 17:16:15 <seco> ic, not a good idea for a blockchain in a year in future :D
 735 2012-04-28 17:17:09 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@pool-96-226-232-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net|brwyatt
 736 2012-04-28 17:19:26 <seco> hopefully i can remove again notification wrappers around bitcoin-qt on 0.6.1 :)
 737 2012-04-28 17:20:50 <gmaxwell> seco: notifaction wrappers?
 738 2012-04-28 17:22:28 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 739 2012-04-28 17:22:33 <seco> yeh, they tell my guys that now its allowed to shutdown the system or restart bitcoin-qt :p  ...they just dont know when disk-cleanup is finished (pointing a finger to the suggestion of closing UI as last element on exit of client)
 740 2012-04-28 17:22:42 <seco> simple bash script...
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 744 2012-04-28 17:30:13 <BTCTrader> i have a question on using curl and the json format to send bitcoins
 745 2012-04-28 17:30:28 <BTCTrader> i am trying to use curl --user snip:snip --data-binary '{"jsonrpc": "1.0", "id":"curltest", "method": "sendtoaddress", "params": [snip] [.0001] }' -H 'content-type: text/plain;' https://snip:10006 -k
 746 2012-04-28 17:30:43 <BTCTrader> but everything i am trying is generating a parse error, any suggestions?
 747 2012-04-28 17:32:40 <sipa> what's snip?
 748 2012-04-28 17:33:07 <BTCTrader> i removed those dåremoved entries for privacy
 749 2012-04-28 17:33:53 <sipa> well, whatever snip is, twhat you said above can't be valid
 750 2012-04-28 17:34:01 <BTCTrader> when i use  "method": "getinfo", "params": [] it works
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 752 2012-04-28 17:35:03 <sipa> it would be "params":["par1","par2"]
 753 2012-04-28 17:35:07 <sipa> should
 754 2012-04-28 17:36:44 <BTCTrader> ah ok
 755 2012-04-28 17:38:45 <BTCTrader> that resulted in {"result":null,"error":{"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected real"},"id":"curltest"}
 756 2012-04-28 17:39:31 <BTCTrader> oh will change curltest to real
 757 2012-04-28 17:39:57 <luke-jr> seco: I think having both timestamps in listtransactions is a good thing, and a "smart" algorithm for Bitcoin-Qt
 758 2012-04-28 17:40:04 <BTCTrader> nope {"result":null,"error":{"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected real"},"id":"real"}
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 761 2012-04-28 17:42:48 <BTCTrader> i am unsure what value to replace it with, obviously not a string but what
 762 2012-04-28 17:43:25 <seco> luke-jr: thats ok; personally im just interested in 1st seen on network :)
 763 2012-04-28 17:43:43 <luke-jr> seco: 1st seen is what it is now..
 764 2012-04-28 17:44:57 <seco> sipa opened some pull-request an hour ago (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1159); now its 1st seen on local client which i would consider irritating if it shows you on the same moment that some catchup is in progress with 1 week old data, seeing a tx coming in "just right now"
 765 2012-04-28 17:46:51 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 766 2012-04-28 17:47:59 <luke-jr> seco: looks like it's onyl for -rescan ?
 767 2012-04-28 17:48:33 <seco> BTCTrader: are you sure there is a bitcoind listening at https://snip:10006 ? probably its some other https-daemon listening there?
 768 2012-04-28 17:48:52 killerstorm has joined
 769 2012-04-28 17:49:07 <BTCTrader> yes i am sure, the getinfo test works
 770 2012-04-28 17:49:08 <BTCTrader>  curl --trace-time --trace-ascii - \
 771 2012-04-28 17:49:09 <BTCTrader>       --data-binary '{"jsonrpc": "1.0", "id":"curltest", "method": "getinfo", "params": [] }' \
 772 2012-04-28 17:49:10 <BTCTrader>       --header 'content-type: text/plain;'\
 773 2012-04-28 17:49:11 <BTCTrader>       http://myuser:mypass@127.0.0.1:8332/
 774 2012-04-28 17:49:34 <BTCTrader> i am looking around the wiki and and web but i don't see any other values to replace curltest with
 775 2012-04-28 17:49:40 <BTCTrader> null also does not work
 776 2012-04-28 17:50:38 <BTCTrader> sorry, the one liner looks like   curl --user user --data-binary '{"jsonrpc": "1.0", "id":"curltest", "method": "getinfo", "params": [] }'
 777 2012-04-28 17:50:38 <BTCTrader>     -H 'content-type: text/plain;' http://127.0.0.1:8332/
 778 2012-04-28 17:51:36 <seco> luke-jr: what i meant is date showing on UI when a "new" transaction pops in while catching up on old blocks, but if its just -rescan thats also better then nothing: On my eyes its just irritating to go out of "intern Bitcoin date in blockchains which could be linked to first realdate seen" to local dates on client machines
 779 2012-04-28 17:52:07 <sipa> ah, not only during rescan no
 780 2012-04-28 17:52:19 <seco> luke-jr: everybody would talk about different timestamps if talked about the same transaction...
 781 2012-04-28 17:52:38 <luke-jr> sipa: it's troublesome to get block times in live environments :/
 782 2012-04-28 17:52:50 <paulo__> i don't fully understand how hash trees help lamport signatures
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 784 2012-04-28 17:54:21 <luke-jr> IMO, it should be "if received in a block, max(last txn time, min(blocktime, currenttime)); otherwise, received time"
 785 2012-04-28 17:54:44 <luke-jr> that way you don't have history changing order or future transactions
 786 2012-04-28 17:55:55 <helo> what's the easiest way to inject a transaction that has been generated in an offline machine?
 787 2012-04-28 17:56:03 <seco> we need bitcoin utc timeserver to blockchain webservice :P
 788 2012-04-28 17:56:20 <etotheipi_> helo: http://bitsend.rowit.co.uk/
 789 2012-04-28 17:56:29 <etotheipi_> or use Armory :)
 790 2012-04-28 17:57:20 <seco> advertisement for own client hehe ;)
 791 2012-04-28 17:57:47 <etotheipi_> (well Armory won't broadcast arbitrary transactions, but it works great if you generate the offline tx with offline-Armory)
 792 2012-04-28 17:57:56 <helo> nice, thanks
 793 2012-04-28 17:58:20 <etotheipi_> that reminds me, I will add a "developer tool" which lets you broadcast arbitrary tx
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 795 2012-04-28 17:59:15 <helo> yes yes... would be a great rpc method for the satoshi client too
 796 2012-04-28 17:59:47 <etotheipi_> I think I could write a really short script that would do it from the command line if Satoshi client is open already
 797 2012-04-28 18:00:11 <seco> etotheipi_: its always a good idea to think about offline usage in case of access barred bitcoin nodes :) - importing private keys is one aspect, injecting signed transactions another way!
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 799 2012-04-28 18:00:41 <etotheipi_> seco: I don't know what you mean "in case of access barred bitcoin nodes"
 800 2012-04-28 18:01:39 <seco> not every person running bitcoin client has internet, or fully available internet (in terms of censorship)
 801 2012-04-28 18:01:59 <seco> or *who wants to use* bitcoin
 802 2012-04-28 18:02:35 <etotheipi_> so what modifications would I make to my process to accommodate that better?
 803 2012-04-28 18:02:40 <helo> /join #bitcoin-injector
 804 2012-04-28 18:03:40 <seco> sadly i only have those 2 ideas i mentioned above right now; passing private/printable/readable keys or transactions somehow to person who has access to bitcoin-network
 805 2012-04-28 18:04:45 <seco> means both sides need support for this: receiver as well as sender; in regards of private key import/export i think Armory already does a cool job! :)
 806 2012-04-28 18:05:13 <etotheipi_> seco: the offline wallet already does this as long as there's a watching-only wallet somewhere that can collect information needed to create the transaction
 807 2012-04-28 18:05:35 <etotheipi_> or, if you can periodically update the blockchain on the offline computer, it will work
 808 2012-04-28 18:06:05 <etotheipi_> I chose to represent signed/unsigned transactions in a pseudo-ASCII-armored format that is printable, or easily sent through email
 809 2012-04-28 18:06:47 <etotheipi_> so it would be easy to create the offline tx, then copy the signed "packet" to the party that does have access to the network to broadcast it
 810 2012-04-28 18:07:22 <seco> yeah thats cool :))
 811 2012-04-28 18:08:19 <helo> i use pywallet to generate the transaction
 812 2012-04-28 18:08:31 <helo> err, to extract the transaction after generating with offline satoshi
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 826 2012-04-28 18:30:47 <etotheipi_> sipa, we use 0x80 to prefix main-net private keys, is it a different byte for testnet?
 827 2012-04-28 18:31:06 <graingert> yep
 828 2012-04-28 18:31:12 <graingert> urm private keys?
 829 2012-04-28 18:31:12 olp has joined
 830 2012-04-28 18:31:24 <graingert> oh wait I missunderstood the question
 831 2012-04-28 18:31:29 <graingert> I thought you were talking about addresses
 832 2012-04-28 18:32:55 <graingert> it looks like it's 0x35 to me
 833 2012-04-28 18:33:05 <graingert> 128 	5 	Private key 	5Htn3FzuH3b1X5VF2zLTsAQzBcyzkZNJsa2egXN8ZFJTCqQm3Rq
 834 2012-04-28 18:33:10 <graingert> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes
 835 2012-04-28 18:34:35 <graingert> etotheipi_: eg 5JiFu4TBrNyaWmBnhMQ5VsedZrrDx9h6Mqvr9NSjpg5GHfhASSH
 836 2012-04-28 18:35:25 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
 837 2012-04-28 18:35:29 <etotheipi_> ahh, 239
 838 2012-04-28 18:35:37 <etotheipi_> it's at the bottom of that first table on the page you linked me
 839 2012-04-28 18:35:48 <etotheipi_> 0xef
 840 2012-04-28 18:35:56 <graingert> well it looks like I can't read
 841 2012-04-28 18:36:15 <etotheipi_> I had to ctrl-f to find it
 842 2012-04-28 18:36:47 <graingert> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes
 843 2012-04-28 18:36:51 <graingert> much better now
 844 2012-04-28 18:36:57 <graingert> says Bitcoin Private Key
 845 2012-04-28 18:37:00 <graingert> rather than Private key
 846 2012-04-28 18:37:29 <graingert> that file probably needs splitting out into pubkey hash, priveky and p2sh
 847 2012-04-28 18:37:33 <graingert> tables
 848 2012-04-28 18:37:41 <etotheipi_> wtf are all these other chains... do any of them have more than 4 users besides BTC, NMC?
 849 2012-04-28 18:39:37 <Blitzboom> etotheipi_: no
 850 2012-04-28 18:39:47 <Blitzboom> and NMC doesn’t have 4 users either
 851 2012-04-28 18:41:30 <graingert> NMC has a few users
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 853 2012-04-28 18:45:35 <graingert> really it should be based on hash power
 854 2012-04-28 18:46:02 <graingert> perhaps we could have a blockchain like NMC to allocate prefixes on a first come first served basis
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 861 2012-04-28 18:56:42 <egecko> interesting.. so for those who said that theres no one using windows phone, its interesting to see there have been 20 downloads of bitdozer so far
 862 2012-04-28 18:57:09 <egecko> http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/apps/1ef1acf5-ae97-4862-801c-04f519d41c51
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 864 2012-04-28 18:58:51 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: it may be worth noting at least some of the (testnet?) prefixes have changed, but nobody has updated the code yet
 865 2012-04-28 18:59:15 <gmaxwell> egecko: 20 downloads ... automated web spiders? :)
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 868 2012-04-28 18:59:38 <egecko> from the microsoft marketplace? doubtful
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 870 2012-04-28 19:00:14 <graingert> egecko: that is one terrible log
 871 2012-04-28 19:00:18 <graingert> o
 872 2012-04-28 19:00:35 <egecko> anyway, it just goes to show there is interest in WP7 for those whove already sold out to android or the jobsian nightmare known as ios
 873 2012-04-28 19:01:18 <egecko> im a programmer not a digital graphic artist, jim.
 874 2012-04-28 19:01:30 <graingert> jim?
 875 2012-04-28 19:01:51 <graingert> egecko: well I do know someone who logo's for bitcoin
 876 2012-04-28 19:01:55 <egecko> jim. james t. kirk, its a star trek allusion :)
 877 2012-04-28 19:02:12 MobiusL has joined
 878 2012-04-28 19:02:53 <seco> egecko: its great you try to get the windows mobile volks in bitcoin, but luckily most of us seem happy not to worry about windows mobile world :x
 879 2012-04-28 19:03:17 <graingert> meh just use webappz
 880 2012-04-28 19:03:34 <graingert> I'd like to see the w3c webapp spec get pushed through and supported
 881 2012-04-28 19:03:47 <graingert> it would be super nice for android to support that
 882 2012-04-28 19:03:51 <graingert> as well as BTG
 883 2012-04-28 19:03:56 cande has joined
 884 2012-04-28 19:04:03 <graingert> B2G*
 885 2012-04-28 19:04:07 <egecko> i want everyone to use bitcoin regardless of their device or OS :)
 886 2012-04-28 19:04:40 <egecko> bitdozer could actually be ported to android or ios very easily since its just c#
 887 2012-04-28 19:06:39 <seco> sadly you are going the right direction with windows egecko ...i would think some nokia store app would also get some mangers into bitcoin as well :)
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 925 2012-04-28 20:41:19 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: retep opened pull request 1160 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1160>
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 944 2012-04-28 20:59:21 <sipa> luke-jr: the behaviour with that patch would be: transactions first seen in a "tx" message or self-generated get clock time, transactions first seen in a block or found by rescanning: block time
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 952 2012-04-28 21:27:43 <luke-jr> sipa: what was your build's sha256?
 953 2012-04-28 21:27:59 <sipa> luke-jr: see gitian
 954 2012-04-28 21:28:01 <sipa> .sigs
 955 2012-04-28 21:28:08 <luke-jr> sipa: it's not in there…
 956 2012-04-28 21:29:10 <sipa> oh, forgot to commit
 957 2012-04-28 21:29:42 <seco> im not in the code, but isnt it possible to derive some kind of time from the Timestamp on each new block compared with the local time, and past transactions where local client already has datestamp on? - Like taking direct transactions more serious and using 1st seen time on those as reference values?
 958 2012-04-28 21:32:41 <luke-jr> sipa: you have different qt and boost inputs O.o
 959 2012-04-28 21:33:10 <luke-jr> outputs all match mine tho
 960 2012-04-28 21:33:21 <sipa> good
 961 2012-04-28 21:33:50 <luke-jr> we should lart gavin for uploading without 3 signers :P
 962 2012-04-28 21:34:06 <sipa> meh, it's just a test release
 963 2012-04-28 21:34:52 <luke-jr> but we have these policies for a reason ;)
 964 2012-04-28 21:35:15 <luke-jr> and if they don't apply to test releases, I should be have stable RCs uploaded more..
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 968 2012-04-28 21:40:45 <luke-jr> *: ping
 969 2012-04-28 21:40:55 <luke-jr> 0.6.1rc1 may have a serious blockchain fork issue
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 971 2012-04-28 21:41:27 <MtRedMining> hey guys
 972 2012-04-28 21:41:48 <luke-jr> MtRedMining is using a very recent git clone, downloading the blockchain from scratch
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 974 2012-04-28 21:41:57 <luke-jr> he's apparently getting stuck on BIP 17 transaction http://blockchain.info/tx-index/2695263/0157f2eec7bf856d66714856182a146998910dc6fa576bec200a9fa8039459e7
 975 2012-04-28 21:42:44 * luke-jr wonders what the best way to bisect this problem is
 976 2012-04-28 21:42:51 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: rebroad opened issue 1161 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1161>
 977 2012-04-28 21:42:56 <MtRedMining> http://vps.mtred.com/dbg.log20k.txt
 978 2012-04-28 21:43:00 <MtRedMining> for my debug log
 979 2012-04-28 21:43:13 <MtRedMining> again this is the latest master from github
 980 2012-04-28 21:43:44 <MtRedMining> my tree (the one in production) gets stuck at 170059, i dont have a log for that right now
 981 2012-04-28 21:44:30 <MtRedMining> this one is getting stuck at 168215
 982 2012-04-28 21:44:33 <sipa> are you connected to multiple nodes?
 983 2012-04-28 21:45:24 <MtRedMining> yes, i've tried rescan and complete datadir wipes
 984 2012-04-28 21:45:54 <MtRedMining> 4 times now, 2 times with the master it gets stuck at 168215
 985 2012-04-28 21:46:10 <MtRedMining> 2 times with my tree wich is a month or so behind get stuck at 170059
 986 2012-04-28 21:46:21 <MtRedMining> this is on a ubuntu 11 box i setup yesterday
 987 2012-04-28 21:47:12 <sipa> if you do a complete datadir wipe, how can your tree be a month old?
 988 2012-04-28 21:47:24 <MtRedMining> no.. my tree as in the src tree
 989 2012-04-28 21:48:20 <MtRedMining> its not even a month old, i move to master about on april 4th or sometime
 990 2012-04-28 21:48:32 <sipa> if it's a 0.6.0rc1, it will get stuck at 170059
 991 2012-04-28 21:48:56 <MtRedMining> well my production is probably rc1
 992 2012-04-28 21:49:13 <MtRedMining> and seems to be fine
 993 2012-04-28 21:49:35 <MtRedMining> im trying to setup another box and been trying to figure this out
 994 2012-04-28 21:49:41 <kinlo> so one well designed transaction and your production goes down?
 995 2012-04-28 21:49:42 <sipa> i'll do a full reload of the blockchain with current master
 996 2012-04-28 21:49:53 <luke-jr> sipa: master fails BIP17 test suite in the wrong case
 997 2012-04-28 21:50:03 <luke-jr> bisecting
 998 2012-04-28 21:50:07 <MtRedMining> kinlo, i will update when i see that the master is any better
 999 2012-04-28 21:50:26 <luke-jr> MtRedMining: I recommend using 0.5.x releases for now ;)
1000 2012-04-28 21:50:27 <sipa> MtRedMining: 0.6.0 final is definitely better
1001 2012-04-28 21:50:31 <luke-jr> or 0.6.0.7
1002 2012-04-28 21:50:53 <luke-jr> hmm, 0.6.0 is failing these tests
1003 2012-04-28 21:50:53 <sipa> all 0.6.0rc1-5 have known issues
1004 2012-04-28 21:51:47 <luke-jr> oh, I see why
1005 2012-04-28 21:52:25 <sipa> BIP17 test case...?
1006 2012-04-28 21:53:09 <luke-jr> sipa: yes, I'm ripping the tests from the BIP 17 branch, to try to reproduce this issue
1007 2012-04-28 21:53:14 <luke-jr> since he's stuck on a BIP 17 txn
1008 2012-04-28 21:53:35 <sipa> if the code has no BIP17 verification, how does this matter?
1009 2012-04-28 21:53:50 <luke-jr> sipa: somehow, the BIP 17 txn in the mainnet blockchain is failing now
1010 2012-04-28 21:53:54 <luke-jr> 0157f2eec7bf856d66714856182a146998910dc6fa576bec200a9fa8039459e7
1011 2012-04-28 21:55:31 <graingert> wat
1012 2012-04-28 21:55:52 <sipa> luke-jr: let's see
1013 2012-04-28 21:56:00 <luke-jr> OK, BIP17 test passes after being fixed :/
1014 2012-04-28 21:56:54 <luke-jr> hmm
1015 2012-04-28 21:56:56 <luke-jr> these are also multisig
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1017 2012-04-28 21:56:59 * luke-jr redoes test
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1020 2012-04-28 21:58:01 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: rebroad opened issue 1162 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1162>
1021 2012-04-28 21:59:04 * sipa wants loadblock merged soon, so you can do an automated "does the current best chain still get accepted by the current code"
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1029 2012-04-28 22:33:11 <sipa> my git master node just finished downloading the entire chain
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1031 2012-04-28 22:39:17 <MtRedMining> hm. im doing a fresh clone of the master, and try again
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1033 2012-04-28 22:41:26 <sipa> MtRedMining: it doesn't happen to have gotten stuck with code from a few days ago?
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1035 2012-04-28 22:41:47 <MtRedMining> the latest the tree might be is from thursday
1036 2012-04-28 22:41:59 <MtRedMining> i left it over night and firday is when i first saw this
1037 2012-04-28 22:42:18 <MtRedMining> tried with my 6rc1 fork, goot the 170059 stuck
1038 2012-04-28 22:42:21 <MtRedMining> tried with master
1039 2012-04-28 22:42:24 <MtRedMining> and got this
1040 2012-04-28 22:43:40 <sipa> there was a bug in the code that was present for a few days only, but it may have been there thursday
1041 2012-04-28 22:43:59 <sipa> and 0.6.0rc1 is known to be buggy as well
1042 2012-04-28 22:44:17 <MtRedMining> yea, im gonna look into that in a min
1043 2012-04-28 22:44:35 <MtRedMining> might have to find a 5 branch as luke suggests
1044 2012-04-28 22:44:35 <sipa> so you're just unlucky to have chosen the wrong versions (though i would not have advised to run git master or rc code on production services in any case...)
1045 2012-04-28 22:44:46 <sipa> just use 0.6.0 final
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1048 2012-04-28 22:45:32 <MtRedMining> well, im testing a new hosting provider, didnt want to deal with it and just clone github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git for ease
1049 2012-04-28 22:45:47 Joric_ is now known as Joric
1050 2012-04-28 22:45:48 <sipa> ok, clone, "git checkout v0.6.0", compile, run
1051 2012-04-28 22:48:08 <MtRedMining> ill test 6 in a min. trying with the latest to make sure it was just bad timing on a push
1052 2012-04-28 22:49:04 <sipa> latest should be fine as well, but there may be other bugs of course
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1065 2012-04-28 23:24:57 Samuel has joined
1066 2012-04-28 23:25:16 <Samuel> I haven't checked in here in a while. How is everybody?
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1069 2012-04-28 23:30:34 <Joric> brainwallet.org uses 2 sources of the transaction history now - reliability matters :D
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1071 2012-04-28 23:35:23 <Joric> looks like http://blockexplorer.com/q/mytransactions/<address> doesn't include coinbase though
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