1 2012-04-29 00:11:02 RainbowDashh is now known as Rabbit67890
  2 2012-04-29 00:11:12 Rabbit67890 is now known as RainbowDashh
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  5 2012-04-29 00:23:56 <mcorlett> sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74917.msg830230#msg830230
  6 2012-04-29 00:23:56 <mcorlett> You state that "it enforces the notion that a single static address should be tied to an identity, instead of using a new address for each transaction." The current client messes up the change and output selection such that maintaining anonymity is practically impossible without the coin-control patch, can you elaborate?
  7 2012-04-29 00:25:01 <Joric> signature -- 1KwDYMJMS4xq3ZEWYfdBRwYG2fHwhZsipa ;)
  8 2012-04-29 00:25:21 BurtyB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 10 2012-04-29 00:26:26 <Joric> i remember it took a while day to generate 1JoricCBkW8C5m7QUZMwoRz9rBCM6ZSy96 now it's a matter of a few seconds
 11 2012-04-29 00:26:42 <sipa> mcorlett: privacy is complex, and there is no magic bullet that will give it to you, but static addresses are an example of a mindset that does not help, and firstbits encourages that
 12 2012-04-29 00:27:15 <sipa> and yes Joric, i know i'm doing the same thing, but I intend to change that as soon as a practical way exists for unlinkable donation addresses
 13 2012-04-29 00:27:17 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: Also, I don't get what you're saying wrt coin control. In fact, if you don't reuse addresses the reference client's behavior wrt anonymity is _much_ better.
 14 2012-04-29 00:27:46 <luke-jr> sipa: you forgot to mention that the Firstbits creator spammed the blockchain to register most short prefixes
 15 2012-04-29 00:27:51 <gmaxwell> Coincontrol's crosslinkage avoidance actually doesn't do anything when all your addresses are only-used-once.
 16 2012-04-29 00:28:29 <sipa> luke-jr: that is another argument against it (and even mentioned in the post), but not relevant here
 17 2012-04-29 00:28:43 <gmaxwell> ('cause the single tranaction that links address X to Y will be the only transaction ever involving X and Y)
 18 2012-04-29 00:29:26 <gmaxwell> (er, ever involving X or Y)
 19 2012-04-29 00:33:05 <mcorlett> gmaxwell: What I'm saying is that it is practically impossible to be completely anonymous without coin control.
 20 2012-04-29 00:33:45 <pigeons> but why does that mean we should encourage behavior that can reduce anonymity?
 21 2012-04-29 00:34:05 <gmaxwell> And what I'm saying is that if you simply don't reuse addresses ever— that you basically get the coin control behavior for almost free.
 22 2012-04-29 00:35:19 <gmaxwell> Coincontrol is largely, though not entirely, needed because of the fact that people frequently keep reusing addresses.  Without the repeated reuse you don't have the cancerous leakage of non-privacy that eventually links all your addresses.
 23 2012-04-29 00:36:03 <gmaxwell> (and sure, I support merging coin control— but it's a bandaid. It's much better privacywise to avoid reuse)
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 28 2012-04-29 00:42:57 <mcorlett> gmaxwell: I'm sorry, I don't see how using a new address for every transaction makes you anonymous. Quite to the contrary, it /implies/ anonymity. I can see that it may make the process more tedious for the attacker, but that doesn't mean much. Re-usage is perfectly fine, but we need a) smarter automatic output selection, or b) manual output selection.
 29 2012-04-29 00:43:57 <mcorlett> (a.k.a. coin control)
 30 2012-04-29 00:44:53 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: Because if you use a seperate address for every transaction you never have any transitive linkages. The loss of anonymity never spreads any wider than the span of a single spend.
 31 2012-04-29 00:44:56 * BTCTrader makes a new address every time
 32 2012-04-29 00:45:25 <gmaxwell> For example— if you spend all the funds you have in a transaction you'll obviously link all your addresses.  Coin control can't do anything about that.
 33 2012-04-29 00:45:44 <gmaxwell> The best you can do with coin control is make sure you don't link any _more_ than what is implied by the inputs you're using.
 34 2012-04-29 00:47:02 <gmaxwell> Single use addresses give you that all the time.  The only thing coin control adds on top of that (when you're already using single shot addresses) is a choice of which 'equally anonymous' (from the perspective of total number of address linkages) selections you can make.
 35 2012-04-29 00:47:37 <gmaxwell> Of course not all addresses are equally anonymous— so thats still useful.  But the basic problem of all your addresses becoming linked even when you don't spend all your funds at once just doesn't exist with single useage addresses.
 36 2012-04-29 00:48:18 e0s_ has joined
 37 2012-04-29 00:52:34 <gmaxwell> (Or saying it another way— Coincontrol does two things: It tracks which addresses-that-have-balances are linked through chains of common inputs — and it lets you manually select inputs (mostly useful to avoid expanding those sets).  The first function is pointless in a world where all address use is single shot as no addresses would be linked by its metric.)
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 41 2012-04-29 01:02:54 <mcorlett> Right, I get all of this. What I don't understand is why practically the entire development team opposes a method of shortening addresses that are going to be used several times anyway (donations, crowdfunding, etc.); this is pretty much the only way people use Firstbits. It is and will continue to be common practice to create a new address for every new /transaction/.
 42 2012-04-29 01:03:14 <mcorlett> Also, sipa mentions that "consuming the outputs of the first transaction that used a particular address, may change the firstbits mapping." I don't believe this to be true.
 43 2012-04-29 01:03:50 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: It is unless you break the bitcoin pruning model.
 44 2012-04-29 01:04:31 <gmaxwell> Firstbits also encourages spammy anti-social behavior... and adopting it would reward parties who have added megabytes of usebloat to the bitcoin shared transaction database.
 45 2012-04-29 01:04:43 <gmaxwell> s/usebloat/useless bloat/
 46 2012-04-29 01:05:44 <gmaxwell> Firstbits addresses are also particularly vulnerable to mistakes. If there were a popular crowdfunding address I would find it quite popular to register all likely typos/misremberings around that common address.
 47 2012-04-29 01:06:13 <gmaxwell> And of course if you have a communication channel reliable enough to prevent the typos/misrememberings you can easily transmit a full address.
 48 2012-04-29 01:06:29 <gmaxwell> s/popular/profitable/  (darn multitasking)
 49 2012-04-29 01:08:20 <gmaxwell> We're prefer that people instead develop useful mechinisims for convenient address distribution for things like crowfunding that don't preclude the single use addresses which are so important to the bitcoin privacy model.
 50 2012-04-29 01:08:22 tower has joined
 51 2012-04-29 01:09:24 <gmaxwell> For example a crowdfunding site could simply maintain a https://mycause.org/pay  URL (perhaps with /pay becoming a common standard) that could be trivially dropped into bitcoin client software. ... and the URL could easily dispense single use addresses to each requester.
 52 2012-04-29 01:10:25 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey, whats the flag to make bitcoind make more than 100 future addresses
 53 2012-04-29 01:10:38 <sipa> Diablo-D3: -keypool=n
 54 2012-04-29 01:10:53 <sipa> (sorry, I'm not gmaxwell)
 55 2012-04-29 01:10:54 <mcorlett> gmaxwell: ...and then they reach their targeted amount of money and consolidate the funds when depositing to their exchange of choice.
 56 2012-04-29 01:11:21 <sipa> mcorlett: maybe, but not necessarily
 57 2012-04-29 01:11:38 <sipa> and if they favor privacy, they shouldn't (and shouldn't need to)
 58 2012-04-29 01:12:17 <gmaxwell> And?  The address reuse forces linkage, making it instant and mandatory. Where as bulk spend at once makes it happen sometimes.
 59 2012-04-29 01:13:02 <gmaxwell> The actual observed behavior on real static donation addresses shows incremental payouts over time... which would be more private if single use addresses were uesd.
 60 2012-04-29 01:13:05 <gmaxwell> er used.
 61 2012-04-29 01:13:25 <mcorlett> gmaxwell: Wikileaks uses both.
 62 2012-04-29 01:13:48 <mcorlett> (Am I allowed to mention them in this channel?)
 63 2012-04-29 01:14:02 <gmaxwell> (E.g. https://blockexplorer.com/address/1PC9aZC4hNX2rmmrt7uHTfYAS3hRbph4UN http://blockexplorer.com/address/1F4Ka3nHH3Ef1P2f66AwLEqwHo6J9wFHKC )
 64 2012-04-29 01:14:18 <gmaxwell> (The FSF and Wikimedia NYC respectively)
 65 2012-04-29 01:15:06 <gmaxwell> (or, for example the EFF old bitcoin donation address: http://blockexplorer.com/address/1MCwBbhNGp5hRm5rC1Aims2YFRe2SXPYKt )
 66 2012-04-29 01:17:23 <mcorlett> Here you can see Wikileaks consolidating funds from their public donation address (1HB5...), and what are assumably private ones. http://blockchain.info/tx-index/4274979/c2a8f051547c23e8d666747553dd329e295bdc330d23831f399e9b09941250df
 67 2012-04-29 01:18:43 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: I don't think you're correct there, actually.
 68 2012-04-29 01:18:49 <sipa> mcorlett: your argument basically is "currently, funds get linked anyway in some cases, so why not encourage linking altogether?"
 69 2012-04-29 01:18:59 <gmaxwell> The other inputs there are small. I expect that they're change from previous spends of the public address.
 70 2012-04-29 01:20:04 <gmaxwell> The first is clearly 1HB5 change.
 71 2012-04-29 01:20:37 <gmaxwell> So is the last.
 72 2012-04-29 01:23:08 <mcorlett> You are correct. I think I'll donate to a private one to see how they handle those.
 73 2012-04-29 01:23:19 <sipa> Don't.
 74 2012-04-29 01:24:23 <sipa> Well, unless you don't mind your funds potentially ending up in limbo.
 75 2012-04-29 01:24:37 Clipse has joined
 76 2012-04-29 01:24:54 <gmaxwell> In any case, it's not really relevant.  Using oneshot addresses is still strictly superior from a privacy perspective.
 77 2012-04-29 01:25:34 <gmaxwell> Even if the user's RX sides behavior is somewhat unfortunate.  It's rather difficult to manage to link _all_ your addresses when single shot addresses are being used...
 78 2012-04-29 01:25:54 <gmaxwell> but fairly easy to link ~all when they aren't used.
 79 2012-04-29 01:26:50 <sipa> when a deterministic chain is used as a static address, you could even do payments that spend each of your inputs separately to separate destinations
 80 2012-04-29 01:26:51 <Joric> i want a service that will allow building those pictures for an arbitrary address http://anonymity-in-bitcoin.blogspot.com/2011/07/bitcoin-is-not-anonymous.html
 81 2012-04-29 01:28:05 <gmaxwell> Joric: I wrote some code to dump data needed to create that kind of graph and posted dumps hoping someone would do the obvious next step. But no one did. Alas. :)
 82 2012-04-29 01:29:53 <Joric> btclook.com has an interesting svg-based visualisation but only for transactions
 83 2012-04-29 01:30:21 <Joric> eg http://www.btclook.com/#/txn/497e5e59111238b953e26e8b8587c2433efba8f9359920d3696efc59c30ac98c
 84 2012-04-29 01:30:24 <BTC_Bear> serajewelKS could probably throw something together, if you asked really nicely.
 85 2012-04-29 01:33:20 osmosis has joined
 86 2012-04-29 01:33:25 <mcorlett> Joric: Awesome visualizations.
 87 2012-04-29 01:33:41 devrandom has joined
 88 2012-04-29 01:34:37 <mcorlett> Joric: See also: http://anonymity-in-bitcoin.blogspot.com/2011/09/code-datasets-and-spsn11.html
 89 2012-04-29 01:35:14 <Joric> yeah i've read/downloaded all that
 90 2012-04-29 01:36:54 <Joric> looks like they've used a popular plotting software that visualizes graphs but it's name is not mentioned
 91 2012-04-29 01:37:48 <gmaxwell> Joric: email them?
 92 2012-04-29 01:39:10 <seco> if you are curious, the one on the top is created using Gephi, and the ones on the bottom are a combination of Graphviz, for layout, and a set of visualization generating code we wrote. We used the excellent Python library Networkx, with graphviz, for the custom visualizations. Also used were the bitcointools, and R.
 93 2012-04-29 01:39:11 <seco> ?
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 97 2012-04-29 01:41:10 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 98 2012-04-29 01:41:16 <seco> (copy/pasted from one of the comments from FergalJul 25, 2011 07:44 PM)
 99 2012-04-29 01:42:29 <jgarzik> pfew, that was ugly.  Got a brand new HTTP server running, using boost.asio.  Started from a boost example HTTP server that was bloody awful, spent way too much time learning boost and fixing bugs, and just now got it to the point where a JSON-RPC input is properly grok'd and replied-to.
100 2012-04-29 01:42:34 <Joric_> seco, thanks
101 2012-04-29 01:42:49 <jgarzik> C++ continues to suck, in terms of (a) debuggability and (b) compiled code size
102 2012-04-29 01:43:27 <jgarzik> thanks to templates, json_spirit_reader (copied from bitcoin) compiled to a 48MB .o file
103 2012-04-29 01:43:53 SphericalCow has quit (Quit: Leaving)
104 2012-04-29 01:44:01 <sipa> anyone want to try my onioncat branch? it has ipv6 support, socks5 support, and tor hidden service support
105 2012-04-29 01:44:23 <seco> np, i have to thank for this great link lol; thats one of the reasons i love Bitcoin: there is always a surprise in the bush: i knew analysis of anonymity is just a question of time, but i didnt search in the past :D
106 2012-04-29 01:44:49 <sipa> ./bitcoind -proxy=127.0.0.1:9050 -connect=a57qr3ydpnyntf5k.onion:8333
107 2012-04-29 01:44:53 <da2ce7> sipa: wow that onioncat branch sounds really cool.
108 2012-04-29 01:45:02 <sipa> ^ works
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111 2012-04-29 01:47:30 <sipa> phantomcircuit: ^
112 2012-04-29 01:47:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: how do you tell it is own onion address?
113 2012-04-29 01:48:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: -externalip=
114 2012-04-29 01:49:04 <sipa> but it won't recognize connections coming from the proxy as being from the tor network, so i suspect it will hand out an ipv4 address in the version message
115 2012-04-29 01:49:15 <sipa> which is actually a tremendous privacy leak
116 2012-04-29 01:49:21 <sipa> but not too hard to fix
117 2012-04-29 01:54:34 * sipa eagerly awaits a tor-only connection
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121 2012-04-29 02:01:05 <gmaxwell> sipa: Happy? :)
122 2012-04-29 02:01:16 Joric_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
123 2012-04-29 02:01:36 <gmaxwell> this is kinda odd:
124 2012-04-29 02:01:36 <gmaxwell> ERROR: Proxy error: host unreachable
125 2012-04-29 02:01:37 <gmaxwell> trying connection dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org lastseen=0.0hrs
126 2012-04-29 02:01:37 <gmaxwell> SOCKS5 connecting dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
127 2012-04-29 02:01:37 <gmaxwell> ERROR: Proxy error: connection refused
128 2012-04-29 02:01:46 Joric has quit (Client Quit)
129 2012-04-29 02:01:46 <gmaxwell> (I'm -connect=a57qr3ydpnyntf5k.onion:8333 )
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131 2012-04-29 02:05:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's dnsseed-via-proxy
132 2012-04-29 02:05:42 <gmaxwell> Yea, it should probably be turned off when using connect, enh?
133 2012-04-29 02:06:00 <sipa> good point
134 2012-04-29 02:06:06 <gmaxwell> (also when DNSseed is disabled perhaps)
135 2012-04-29 02:06:27 <sipa> with -nodnsseed you won't see that
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139 2012-04-29 02:09:17 <gmaxwell> I guess we'll do the right thing, at least when that is fixed... though I expect some users will accidentally turn off DNSseed when they really want it.
140 2012-04-29 02:09:36 <gmaxwell> (thinking 'on I don't want DNS leaks')
141 2012-04-29 02:09:43 <gmaxwell> s/on/oh/
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152 2012-04-29 02:31:23 <seco> hahaha Points Of Interest on btclook.com: Like "todays headlines from the blockchain": 2 thefts, and new intersting tx with 11ins and 2outs.STOP.  Now see one with 102ins but just a total of 0.638BTC  :D
153 2012-04-29 02:31:48 <seco> tomorrow you will see great surprise: just visit us again :)
154 2012-04-29 02:32:38 d4de has joined
155 2012-04-29 02:33:17 <seco> cool site
156 2012-04-29 02:33:21 <Joric> i wonder how many thefts were yesterday :)
157 2012-04-29 02:34:27 <Joric> seco, where's that can't find those Points Of Interest
158 2012-04-29 02:34:58 <seco> http://www.btclook.com/#/nada on the middle column at the top
159 2012-04-29 02:35:36 <Joric> ah, got it :)
160 2012-04-29 02:36:14 <da2ce7> and windows c++ coders can help in #opentransactions with a few questions about vc90
161 2012-04-29 02:36:16 <da2ce7> *any
162 2012-04-29 02:37:02 <seco> i enjoy those "The thief?" public addresses like http://www.btclook.com/#/addr/176LRX4WRWD5LWDMbhr94ptb2MW9varCZP  :)
163 2012-04-29 02:37:22 <gmaxwell> on what basis is it calling some txn theft?
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166 2012-04-29 02:37:45 <seco> if mtgox would add push some information about thefts to them, it would make a good bitcoin-policy out of the site
167 2012-04-29 02:38:19 <seco> every trader could check after acceptance of payment and could detect stolen coins!
168 2012-04-29 02:39:23 <gmaxwell> and every theif could check and then move around coins until they pass the detection.
169 2012-04-29 02:39:29 <seco> gmaxwell: i have no clue, but i guess its many small tx to the address, and same frequency of moving them out
170 2012-04-29 02:39:29 <Joric> every coin will be eventually tainted to some extent
171 2012-04-29 02:39:44 <gmaxwell> Joric: which is fine.
172 2012-04-29 02:39:46 <Joric> i don't like that bitcoin aids feature
173 2012-04-29 02:40:32 <gmaxwell> I think it's ironic that the only person I know for a fact who has stolen coins is the one who reliably whines most about people catching coin theives.
174 2012-04-29 02:41:38 <Diablo-D3> and the person who whines most about botnets is the guy with the biggest one
175 2012-04-29 02:41:45 * Diablo-D3 stares at luke
176 2012-04-29 02:41:48 <seco> hehe
177 2012-04-29 02:41:55 <gmaxwell> Luke doesn't whine about botnets.
178 2012-04-29 02:41:56 <Joric> i hate botnets too! :)
179 2012-04-29 02:42:15 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: he wines about people bitching he keeps them online
180 2012-04-29 02:42:15 <gmaxwell> The professional spammer whines about botnets.
181 2012-04-29 02:42:17 <Diablo-D3> so they must be all his
182 2012-04-29 02:42:18 <seco> oh yes we all do, until there is some distributed method which solves problems for us :D
183 2012-04-29 02:43:28 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/1c19389b0461f0901d8eace260764691926a5636c74bd8a3cc68db08dbbeb80a  < what an odd txn.
184 2012-04-29 02:43:53 <gmaxwell> why do they have so many randomly sized pay to pubkey inputs.
185 2012-04-29 02:44:43 * seco feeds btclook.com with that tx waiting for his poor computer to finish painting of the graphs
186 2012-04-29 02:45:58 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: is that a txn by you?
187 2012-04-29 02:46:26 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not afaik
188 2012-04-29 02:46:27 <seco> lol half of the outputs are under 0.1btc and unclaimed; but the big ones over 1.6k are moving forward :D
189 2012-04-29 02:48:42 <seco> oh wait the mass of these bubbles just crashed *cough*
190 2012-04-29 02:49:26 <Joric> http://brainwallet.org/#transactions <- hope eventually it'll become a full blown transaction editor
191 2012-04-29 02:50:37 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I think you've been robbed if that wasn't yours.
192 2012-04-29 02:50:52 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: all those pay to pubkey inputs are the single pubkey payment in eligius blocks.
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198 2012-04-29 03:00:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: oh, those are just inputs
199 2012-04-29 03:01:01 <luke-jr> outputs look like normal sendmany
200 2012-04-29 03:01:24 <luke-jr> 2011-07-05 was a long time ago
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247 2012-04-29 06:35:15 <paulo_> i just tried coding merkle signatures
248 2012-04-29 06:35:51 <paulo_> signatures are 24kb, which are too big
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250 2012-04-29 06:37:08 <paulo_> *lamport signatures
251 2012-04-29 06:43:16 <gmaxwell> You can compress them by arranging them in trees. You only have to disclose hash vales as deep as the trees differ.
252 2012-04-29 06:43:25 <gmaxwell> Doesn't help that much but it's something.
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258 2012-04-29 06:54:22 <paulo_> gmaxwell: i don't fully understand how hash trees help. Can you explain it further?
259 2012-04-29 06:54:44 <paulo_> Instead, i publish another compressed public key for the next message.
260 2012-04-29 06:55:12 <paulo_> by compressed public key i mean a hash of the real public key.
261 2012-04-29 06:56:12 <paulo_> I just publish the real public key along with the signature
262 2012-04-29 06:56:17 <paulo_> as described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_signature#Short_public_key
263 2012-04-29 06:57:31 <gmaxwell> paulo_: say you have 512 hashes for a 256 bit signing. You arrange them in a binary tree along the 0 or 1 values.  This way when the data being signed is contigiously 1/0 you only send the upper levels of the tree (along with the relevant secret preimages)
264 2012-04-29 07:01:10 <paulo_> gmaxwell: I don't really understand.
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266 2012-04-29 07:05:04 <gmaxwell> paulo_: for every value in the signature you need to transmit the secret preimage for the value being signed signing.
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268 2012-04-29 07:05:33 <gmaxwell> You also need to send the hashes for the values opposite bits, so that the public key can be computed for comparison.
269 2012-04-29 07:06:25 <paulo_> gmaxwell: i understand, thanks.
270 2012-04-29 07:06:55 <gmaxwell> You can reduce the number of hashes you need to send for the public key side by arranging the hashes into a binary hash tree, and sending higher levels of the tree when the bits take on the same values. I don't know how to put it more siply without drawing pictures.
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272 2012-04-29 07:09:28 <gmaxwell> paulo_: for 512 bit hashes, a lamport signature should only be 8192 bytes. even without the fancy compression I described.
273 2012-04-29 07:09:41 <gmaxwell> (512 bits * 512 bits * 2)
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282 2012-04-29 07:21:57 * paulo_ codes
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291 2012-04-29 07:39:57 <paulo_> i've reduced the signature to 16kb
292 2012-04-29 07:40:06 <paulo_> 512 * 256 bits
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295 2012-04-29 07:43:43 <gmaxwell> paulo_: thats right. (ignore my 8192 above, I'm obviously up way past my bedtime)
296 2012-04-29 07:44:41 <gmaxwell> paulo_: you can make it smaller still, but not consistently— by doing the tree compression of the public values the 16kb can be the worst case. But yes, lamport signatures are enormous... thats why bitcoin doesn't use them today.
297 2012-04-29 07:45:26 <gmaxwell> (and sadly, none of the 'post quantum' signature schemes are space efficient)
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300 2012-04-29 07:49:30 <gmaxwell> The bestcase for the tree compressed signatures is 8224 bytes, e.g. for the astronomically unlikely signing all 0/1s cases. (e.g. you'd send the 32 secrets, and then the single hash of the whole 0 or 1 side public tree root, which you'd hash with the hash of the tree you calculate from the secrets to get the public key.)
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303 2012-04-29 07:54:40 <paulo_> gmaxwell: I was actually thinking of the same concept (the compression). I just thought yours always compresses.
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309 2012-04-29 08:25:09 <paulo_> gmaxwell: I understand how the hash tree works now, thanks.
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312 2012-04-29 08:32:07 <paulo_> gmaxwell: if I get have this right, I can compress if bits are the same contigously in the powers of 2?
313 2012-04-29 08:32:41 <paulo_> for example, I can compress 11 and 110 into one hash, and 1111 into one hash?
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325 2012-04-29 09:54:01 <Diablo-D3> remember to vote everyone: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78052.0
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338 2012-04-29 11:31:55 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: laanwj opened pull request 1163 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1163>
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342 2012-04-29 11:37:13 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: laanwj reopened pull request 1139 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1139>
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350 2012-04-29 12:29:19 <Joric> http://abe.john-edwin-tobey.org/ is down
351 2012-04-29 12:29:45 <Joric> are there any other blockexplorers besides bbe and bci?
352 2012-04-29 12:32:24 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
353 2012-04-29 12:32:56 <Joric> the 'mirror' from wiki http://109.123.116.245 doesn't work either
354 2012-04-29 12:33:32 b4epoche_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
355 2012-04-29 12:34:51 <riush> Joric: bitcoin.interesthings.de is my experimental one
356 2012-04-29 12:35:56 b4epoche_ has joined
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359 2012-04-29 12:39:00 <Joric> riush, i'm looking for /q/mytransactions or something similar trying to make a reliable transaction builder
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363 2012-04-29 12:39:16 <Joric> just found out blockexplorer doesn't include coinbase into a list transactions http://blockexplorer.com/q/mytransactions/12c6DSiU4Rq3P4ZxziKxzrL5LmMBrzjrJX kindof risky, 50 btc off
364 2012-04-29 12:39:59 <riush> Joric: /addres/<addr>
365 2012-04-29 12:40:10 <riush> or just search for it (but that sometimes doesn't work)
366 2012-04-29 12:40:19 <riush> address*
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388 2012-04-29 14:13:38 <paulo_> i think i've overcomplicated the lamport signature program...
389 2012-04-29 14:14:12 <sipa> can it send e-mail?
390 2012-04-29 14:14:18 <paulo_> lol
391 2012-04-29 14:14:24 <sipa> if not: no
392 2012-04-29 14:16:23 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
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394 2012-04-29 14:18:57 <paulo_> maybe i'm just too lazy to finish it
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422 2012-04-29 15:32:24 <genjix> 177660 contains a BIP 16 tx :)
423 2012-04-29 15:51:23 Graet is now known as ozcoin
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447 2012-04-29 18:17:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: so I successfully* bootstrapped a node over your onion address.
448 2012-04-29 18:17:49 <gmaxwell> (*) successful subject to the fact that bitcoin is currently broken and hangs at block 177791.
449 2012-04-29 18:18:22 <gmaxwell> oh, it's not hung.. it's just syncing very slowly now.
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451 2012-04-29 18:19:12 <gmaxwell> weird.
452 2012-04-29 18:19:13 <gmaxwell> 04/29/12 18:06:24 SetBestChain: new best=00000000000005f83ade  height=177791  work=307944356672549527872
453 2012-04-29 18:19:30 <gmaxwell> 04/29/12 18:15:30 askfor block 00000000000006b60552   0
454 2012-04-29 18:19:30 <gmaxwell> 04/29/12 18:15:30 sending getdata: block 00000000000006b60552
455 2012-04-29 18:19:30 <gmaxwell> 04/29/12 18:15:30 received block 00000000000006b60552
456 2012-04-29 18:19:30 <gmaxwell> 04/29/12 18:15:31 SetBestChain: new best=00000000000006b60552  height=177792  work=307950836114722551562
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463 2012-04-29 18:42:33 <midnightmagic> bootstrap from scratch?
464 2012-04-29 18:42:45 <midnightmagic> if so, gmaxwell, how long did it take?
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477 2012-04-29 19:05:20 <paulo_> bitcoin is broken?
478 2012-04-29 19:05:39 <[Tycho]> Why do you think so ?
479 2012-04-29 19:06:01 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
480 2012-04-29 19:07:05 <paulo_> i was scrolling up
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484 2012-04-29 19:12:03 <graingert> gmaxwell: broken?
485 2012-04-29 19:18:12 <BTCTrader> does anyone know Adrianne Jeffries email?
486 2012-04-29 19:18:21 <BTCTrader> oh nm
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492 2012-04-29 19:22:43 <sipa> hmm, i was running without -logtimestamps, so i can't tell how long it took
493 2012-04-29 19:25:08 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: rebroad opened issue 1164 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1164>
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497 2012-04-29 19:37:13 <paulo_> weirdly, google doesn't return existing implementations of lamport
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508 2012-04-29 20:02:53 <gmaxwell> paulo_ a basic lamport implementation is so trivial I can see why people wouldn't bother.
509 2012-04-29 20:03:25 <gmaxwell> paulo_: the tree compressed lamport afaik only exists in my mind (and yours now), I wasn't able to find any citations for it— though its a pretty obvious optimization.
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511 2012-04-29 20:06:55 <paulo_> gmaxwell: and a very dirty tree compressed code soon.
512 2012-04-29 20:15:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: I have a log of it with logtimestamps.
513 2012-04-29 20:15:52 <gmaxwell> paulo_> bitcoin is broken?
514 2012-04-29 20:16:04 <gmaxwell> and it's not broken I was just being stupid because I just woke up. :)
515 2012-04-29 20:17:56 <gmaxwell> 04/29/12 05:01:47 SetBestChain: new best=00000000000007cb13f5  height=177700  work=307354727434804372082
516 2012-04-29 20:18:10 <gmaxwell> 04/29/12 02:01:08 SetBestChain: new best=00000000839a8e6886ab  height=1  work=8590065666
517 2012-04-29 20:18:41 <gmaxwell> (this is just on my laptop which is rather slow— an old 1.6ghz L7500)
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519 2012-04-29 20:19:46 <gmaxwell> I think three hours to fully sync up over hidden service— which has 7 hops instead of the normal 3— doesn't sound bad at all.
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523 2012-04-29 20:20:55 <paulo_> i've done the signing part, the checking part is hard.
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525 2012-04-29 20:22:27 <gmaxwell> paulo_: yea, you have to rebuild the same tree just from the signed data in order to know what hashes you're recieving.
526 2012-04-29 20:23:17 <paulo_> gmaxwell: exactly, it's kinda hard to code it.
527 2012-04-29 20:23:24 <paulo_> oh well, it's time for me to sleep
528 2012-04-29 20:26:59 <gmaxwell> I also had a thought that you actually code reduce it further by coding quadnary (radix 4) units instead of bits.  E.g. you group pairs of bits to get 0,1,2,3 values.  Then you only need to disclose one secret value per two bits instead of one secret value per bits.
529 2012-04-29 20:27:39 <gmaxwell> This might compress better because the secret values don't get any tree gain. But I don't remember if I did the math to figure out of the 4 way branching reduced the average case compression enough to completely offset the gain.
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531 2012-04-29 20:28:22 <gmaxwell> (the best case would obviously be a lot better thought). Maybe I did because IIRC I did figure out that higher radix made it worse.
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554 2012-04-29 22:07:48 <Diapolo> BlueMatt: Another try, are you on?
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556 2012-04-29 22:13:19 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened issue 1165 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1165>
557 2012-04-29 22:19:13 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@pool-96-226-232-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net|brwyatt
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564 2012-04-29 22:49:11 <jgarzik> cute.  Someone is figuring out who minted each block: http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/
565 2012-04-29 22:49:22 <jgarzik> it's nice to have that data aggregated
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572 2012-04-29 23:10:02 <kinlo> :)
573 2012-04-29 23:10:19 <sipa> gmaxwell: also, it's from a laptop over wifi on my side
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578 2012-04-29 23:19:31 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1166 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1166>
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