1 2012-05-03 00:01:22 <sipa> etotheipi_: since extensions (not that i can really imagine many of those now) will presumable not need to be detectable by code that doesn't support them, there's no need to clash with their namespace
2 2012-05-03 00:01:37 <sipa> etotheipi_: so you could use m/0xFFFFFFFF as branch point of extensions as well
3 2012-05-03 00:02:15 <etotheipi_> sipa: good point
4 2012-05-03 00:02:48 <sipa> or we could just say that all numbers above 0x7FFFFFFF are reserved for future use
5 2012-05-03 00:03:23 * sipa doubts people need 2 billion accounts, or 2 billion keys in an account
6 2012-05-03 00:03:33 <sipa> (but they should be able to)
7 2012-05-03 00:03:36 <etotheipi_> ehh... we have a perfectly self-similar capability
8 2012-05-03 00:03:54 <sipa> yes, nice isn't it? ;)
9 2012-05-03 00:03:57 <etotheipi_> branching off of M/x/y instead of M/x looks exactly the same if all you ahve is M/x
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11 2012-05-03 00:04:12 <etotheipi_> or M/x/y in the second case
12 2012-05-03 00:04:21 <sipa> true, the only witness is the depth field in the serialized form
13 2012-05-03 00:04:32 <sipa> but for the rest, nothing depends on height
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15 2012-05-03 00:05:09 <sipa> I would however, advise against going 2^512 levels deep
16 2012-05-03 00:05:33 <etotheipi_> so you really only need to specify M/0xFFFFFFFF will be reserved... and then people have a still-infinite space to play with, it'll just be one level deeper
17 2012-05-03 00:05:47 <sipa> true
18 2012-05-03 00:06:01 * sipa marks 0xDEADBEEF reserved
19 2012-05-03 00:06:06 <etotheipi_> haha
20 2012-05-03 00:06:41 <sipa> "How do you mean, I can't have an account with index 3735928559???"
21 2012-05-03 00:09:40 <sipa> too bad that 0xB1TC01N isn't possible
22 2012-05-03 00:10:04 <sipa> 0xB12C014 ?
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30 2012-05-03 00:16:17 <Matt_von_Mises> Hello. What is the maximum amount of outputs a bitcoin transaction can have?
31 2012-05-03 00:16:22 <Matt_von_Mises> Under the protocol.
32 2012-05-03 00:17:16 <sipa> the transaction size limit will be reached before the txout counter overflow
33 2012-05-03 00:17:19 <sipa> s
34 2012-05-03 00:21:51 <Matt_von_Mises> What size should the counter be, minimum? I guess 8 bytes but would that be future proof?
35 2012-05-03 00:23:05 <Matt_von_Mises> 8 bits I mean, one byte.
36 2012-05-03 00:23:27 <Matt_von_Mises> bitcoinj seems to use a long so 64 bits.
37 2012-05-03 00:24:03 <Matt_von_Mises> 64 bits might be overdoing it... just a little.
38 2012-05-03 00:26:20 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 1187 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1187>
39 2012-05-03 00:28:18 <Joric> Matt_von_Mises, it's u32
40 2012-05-03 00:29:10 <Matt_von_Mises> Yes I'm using a 32 bit integer for what I'm doing. That makes sense.
41 2012-05-03 00:29:29 <Joric> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx uint32_t The index of the specific output in the transaction
42 2012-05-03 00:29:32 <Matt_von_Mises> unsigned as well.
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45 2012-05-03 00:30:53 <Matt_von_Mises> That protocol specification page has improved a lot since the last time I looked
46 2012-05-03 00:31:03 <Matt_von_Mises> Definitely will refer to it. Thanks.
47 2012-05-03 00:34:02 <Joric> sipa, from what i remember xp's shipping with ie6 at least, so requiring 5.1 is fine :)
48 2012-05-03 00:35:35 <Joric> ie6 - august 27 2001, xp - august 24 2001
49 2012-05-03 00:36:09 <Joric> dam! 3 days difference
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52 2012-05-03 00:44:27 <Matt_von_Mises> Why isn't the OutPoint structure included into the TxIn structure? Makes little sense why to have a separate structure.
53 2012-05-03 00:45:04 <Joric> satoshi designed it
54 2012-05-03 00:46:27 <Matt_von_Mises> Ah, then why did Mike Hearn, the Google developer, do the same thing in bitcoinj? :P
55 2012-05-03 00:47:05 <Joric> i don't i just read it consequently
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59 2012-05-03 00:55:33 <etotheipi_> Matt_von_Mises: for reference, I use OutPoint objects as keys into maps in Armory
60 2012-05-03 00:55:52 <etotheipi_> they completely encapsulate an "output" which is either spent or unspent
61 2012-05-03 00:56:03 <etotheipi_> you can represent the entire blockchain as a list of unspent OutPoints
62 2012-05-03 00:56:35 <etotheipi_> or maintain everything you need for balances, creating new transactions and tx history, just by storing all the OutPoints
63 2012-05-03 00:56:42 <etotheipi_> I think they are worthy of being a structure :)
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65 2012-05-03 00:58:24 <Matt_von_Mises> Well, I reckon I ought to implement them as a separate structure then. :-)
66 2012-05-03 00:58:55 <Matt_von_Mises> In case anyone is wondering I'm trying to make my own C implementation of bitcoin.
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68 2012-05-03 01:01:06 <Matt_von_Mises> etotheipi_ and anyone else: Good idea to create OutPoints dynamically do you think and use pointer references or just use them by value on the stack?
69 2012-05-03 01:05:16 <Matt_von_Mises> I think for now I wont implement them as a separate structure until the time comes. I'll just get on with the more important bits.
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74 2012-05-03 01:15:18 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: as far as I can see, it is
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76 2012-05-03 01:15:55 <sipa> class CTxIn { public: COutPoint prevout;
77 2012-05-03 01:19:08 <Matt_von_Mises> It would be easy to replicate that if needed then.
78 2012-05-03 01:20:09 <sipa> what are you implementing?
79 2012-05-03 01:23:11 <Matt_von_Mises> A complete bitcoin library which will be part of a bigger (secret) project.
80 2012-05-03 01:23:36 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: Are you using git?
81 2012-05-03 01:23:42 <Matt_von_Mises> Soon, I'll commit what I've done to github. I just want to get some basic things together.
82 2012-05-03 01:23:55 <Joric> theres more libraries than bitcoins
83 2012-05-03 01:23:57 <Matt_von_Mises> Up here when I'm ready: https://github.com/MatthewLM/cbitcoin
84 2012-05-03 01:24:05 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: let me know if you'd rather put it on Gitorious - we have a Bitcoin umbrella project there ;)
85 2012-05-03 01:24:33 <Joric> is it going to be a plain c? i approve, sign me in!
86 2012-05-03 01:24:54 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: there are already a few functional bitcoin libraries, such as libcoin (refactor of the satoshi code) and libbitcoin (genjix's thing)
87 2012-05-03 01:25:00 <Matt_von_Mises> Standard C, yes. THings like threads and networking will have to be passed to the library.
88 2012-05-03 01:25:13 <sipa> or the backend of armory
89 2012-05-03 01:25:17 <luke-jr> sipa: not C afaik
90 2012-05-03 01:25:22 <Joric> impressive start!
91 2012-05-03 01:25:24 <sipa> neither of those are pure C, no
92 2012-05-03 01:25:28 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: C99? :D
93 2012-05-03 01:25:39 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: My library is part of much bigger project which means I want to make a library from scratch.
94 2012-05-03 01:25:51 <Joric> oh no it's GPL sign me out!
95 2012-05-03 01:25:53 <Matt_von_Mises> luke-jr: C99 I am using, yes.
96 2012-05-03 01:26:06 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: I don't see why
97 2012-05-03 01:26:12 <sipa> libraries are intended to be reusable
98 2012-05-03 01:26:39 <sipa> (not that I will stop you from implementing things yourself - there can be various good reasons for that, but know what you start with)
99 2012-05-03 01:28:37 <Matt_von_Mises> Joric: Why do you not like GPL?
100 2012-05-03 01:28:54 <Matt_von_Mises> Well all the other libraries would need a lot of work from what I've seen
101 2012-05-03 01:29:06 <Matt_von_Mises> For my requirements.
102 2012-05-03 01:29:37 <Matt_von_Mises> One thing is I really need to learn about the bitcoin protocol. What better way than implementing it?
103 2012-05-03 01:29:43 <Joric> i wouldn't touch GPL with a barge pole
104 2012-05-03 01:29:59 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: In that case, absolutely
105 2012-05-03 01:30:28 <sipa> (though trying to improve existing code certainly also works, and may be more useful for the community as a whole)
106 2012-05-03 01:30:43 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: And people like me, who hate C++, need something⦠in C!
107 2012-05-03 01:31:20 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: I love C, but I wouldn't dare trying to reimplement Bitcoin in C
108 2012-05-03 01:31:24 <sipa> it's just too complex
109 2012-05-03 01:31:40 <Matt_von_Mises> Joric: Why? I use it to prevent derivative works being restricted by copyright.
110 2012-05-03 01:31:52 <Joric> Matt_von_Mises, don't use viral licenses, viruses are bad
111 2012-05-03 01:31:59 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: I think C is simple⦠but so simple it makes the programs complicated. ;-)
112 2012-05-03 01:32:13 <sipa> I like the GPL, but it has its place.
113 2012-05-03 01:32:29 <Matt_von_Mises> Joric: It's a protection against the abuses of copyright.
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116 2012-05-03 01:33:01 <Joric> fundamentally, the GPL is a political tool, not a license
117 2012-05-03 01:33:18 <gmaxwell> If you accept the terms someone's software is under then don't use it.
118 2012-05-03 01:33:37 <sipa> in that case, Bitcoin is a political tool as well.
119 2012-05-03 01:34:03 <gmaxwell> But it's a bit silly to complain about the GPLâ if you endorse the freedom to restrict software then you should still like the GPL, because it practices that freedom. :)
120 2012-05-03 01:34:20 <Matt_von_Mises> Well I'm politically against copyright. :P I don't want people using my work with copyright abuses.
121 2012-05-03 01:34:50 <da2ce7> just ignore the licences and try not to get sued... who say what I should do with the code on my own computer :P
122 2012-05-03 01:36:29 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: well, of course, no man is an island and the choices you make put pressure on other people who may be less judgement proof than you are. Becides, license or notâ most non-freely licensed software is closed source which somewhat inhibits your freedom over it even if you're ignoring the license.
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124 2012-05-03 01:37:15 <Matt_von_Mises> In a perfect world, copyright wouldn't exist and you wouldn't need "copyleft" licenses.
125 2012-05-03 01:37:34 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: couldn't even create them!
126 2012-05-03 01:37:42 <Matt_von_Mises> But it's not perfect so I'm using GPL, like it or not.
127 2012-05-03 01:38:48 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: if you like GPL, go with it; I like GPL, but it does have thorns
128 2012-05-03 01:39:10 <sipa> exactly
129 2012-05-03 01:39:39 <da2ce7> in a copywrite free world closed-source software will still exist, and that is fine.
130 2012-05-03 01:40:03 <sipa> is that typo intentional? :D
131 2012-05-03 01:40:28 <da2ce7> lol... not particulay.
132 2012-05-03 01:40:45 <luke-jr> I prefer replacing copyright, not abolishing it.
133 2012-05-03 01:41:33 <sipa> 5-10 years copyright for free, after that opt-in by registrering it, extensible to 20-30 years at most maybe
134 2012-05-03 01:41:40 <luke-jr> first, make plagerism illegal; then offer 1 year monopoly on distribution in exchange for providing the full source code to the State to be published after that period
135 2012-05-03 01:41:42 <sipa> that would be reasonable to me :)
136 2012-05-03 01:42:12 <luke-jr> sipa: for software, it's stale after 3 years ;P
137 2012-05-03 01:42:31 <Matt_von_Mises> *tries not to get political*
138 2012-05-03 01:43:20 <sipa> luke-jr: any idea how many Windows XP installs exist still? ;)
139 2012-05-03 01:43:20 <da2ce7> I say. "just ignore it and make it irrelevantâ
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142 2012-05-03 01:48:40 <Matt_von_Mises> Well, I'm off to bed now. Hopefully I'll make the first commit for the cbitcoin library within 1-2 weeks. I'm MatthewLM on the forums. 'night
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158 2012-05-03 02:48:27 <etotheipi_> anyone here who helped with BIP 21 (the URL spec) have comments about "label=" vs "message="
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160 2012-05-03 02:49:30 <etotheipi_> and more directly, I want to know if "message=" is saved with the wallet in Bitcoin-Qt
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163 2012-05-03 02:52:00 <etotheipi_> and even more directly, could you consider storing "address labels" and "transaction comments/labels" separately
164 2012-05-03 02:52:42 <Joric> sipa, do you have a reference implementation of BIP32? 'Hierarchical Deterministic Wallets'
165 2012-05-03 02:52:47 <etotheipi_> I'm seeing tremendous value in using the "label" field to identify the owner of the address that would show up in your address book... and using the "message" field for the merchant to put order information
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167 2012-05-03 02:53:08 <etotheipi_> but I'm not sure that Bitcoin-Qt save the message data
168 2012-05-03 02:53:22 <etotheipi_> Joric: I've got a reference implementation :)
169 2012-05-03 02:53:55 <etotheipi_> I'm actually developing my new wallet format too soon... I got it implemented and tested, but sipa hasn't even finished the spec yet...
170 2012-05-03 02:54:09 <Joric> etotheipi_, didn't know armory wallets are hierarchical
171 2012-05-03 02:54:11 <etotheipi_> I can't finalize it until I know that it will be compatible with the final
172 2012-05-03 02:54:17 <etotheipi_> Joric: they're not
173 2012-05-03 02:54:22 <etotheipi_> they're only deterministic
174 2012-05-03 02:54:52 <etotheipi_> but I have a bunch of reasons I needed to start over with a completely new wallet version, and sipa's HD wallets are pretty smooth
175 2012-05-03 02:55:16 <etotheipi_> so I decided to switch to their [future] algorithm, which then will be compatible with Bitcoin-Qt wallets, too
176 2012-05-03 02:55:19 <Joric> can't wait to make a js version of it )
177 2012-05-03 02:55:35 <etotheipi_> Joric: well no matter what, you need to implement HMAC-SHA512
178 2012-05-03 02:55:42 <etotheipi_> so you could get started implementing and unit-testing that
179 2012-05-03 02:57:49 <Joric> looks like it's already implemented http://jssha.sourceforge.net
180 2012-05-03 02:58:35 <etotheipi_> I put up test vectors for the ChildKeyDerive() function at: https://gist.github.com/2513316
181 2012-05-03 02:58:44 <etotheipi_> but they still need to be confirmed by SIPA
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183 2012-05-03 02:59:04 <etotheipi_> wait, nm... we're possibly changing it slightly, so those test vectors will be invalid
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329 2012-05-03 09:04:34 <Diapolo> hi there, can someone plese send me some testnet coins to n1BZTYSkrdLW1LEmYppjGs5g1zVwmC8fAs as I would like to test an address list code-fix for the Qt client
330 2012-05-03 09:06:36 <t7> what is opencl used for apart from hashing ?
331 2012-05-03 09:08:25 <Diapolo> for Bitcoin or in general?
332 2012-05-03 09:08:32 <t7> in general
333 2012-05-03 09:09:15 <Diapolo> Simulations, physics, economics, atom-stuff and all related calculations e.g.
334 2012-05-03 09:09:30 <Diapolo> is's a general purpos computing language
335 2012-05-03 09:09:33 <Diapolo> +e
336 2012-05-03 09:10:48 <t7> yeah but branches are really slow arnt they?
337 2012-05-03 09:14:07 <t7> (so its not really general purpose )
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342 2012-05-03 09:18:16 <fiddur> Diapolo: sure; sent 500
343 2012-05-03 09:18:38 dwon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
344 2012-05-03 09:33:22 <Diapolo> fiddur: thanks that helps me a lot :)
345 2012-05-03 09:33:51 <Diapolo> t7: branching got a lot better with GCN
346 2012-05-03 09:35:19 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1188 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1188>
347 2012-05-03 09:37:15 <Diapolo> fiddur: can you also hand me an testnet addr I can sent coins to for testing :)?
348 2012-05-03 09:37:44 <fiddur> Diapolo: sure: mrksAVqV5Kywjky9BBaMVty95hXyaQaiJE
349 2012-05-03 09:38:32 <fiddur> hmm, anyone else bothered by the fact that "Copy to clipboard" puts the address in secondary clipboard in X, so that pasting with middle click doesn't work? :)
350 2012-05-03 09:40:29 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
351 2012-05-03 09:42:52 <Diapolo> fiddur: thanks well if that's a clear bug / glitch I would suggest you report it on github
352 2012-05-03 09:44:47 tower has joined
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357 2012-05-03 09:50:05 <sipa__> fiddur: do you know of any program where a copy to clipboard puts it in the primary?
358 2012-05-03 09:50:22 toffoo has quit ()
359 2012-05-03 09:50:44 <sipa__> the primary clipboard is really just delayed drag and drop
360 2012-05-03 09:51:07 <fiddur> sipa__: Normally you have the option of marking the text, and thus having it in primary clipboard directly. In the address-list, you cant mark the address...
361 2012-05-03 09:52:48 <fiddur> But no, it's not a clear bug, just an inkonvenience depending on how you're used to work.
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363 2012-05-03 09:57:32 <t7> :t let fix f = f (fix f) in fix
364 2012-05-03 09:57:37 <t7> woops
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373 2012-05-03 10:08:06 <Ken`_> fixpoint operator
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383 2012-05-03 10:39:56 <denisx> anybody has an idea why my version of block 177788 were not accepted even it was found 5 minutes earlier than the accepted 177788 block?
384 2012-05-03 10:40:03 <denisx> http://blockchain.info/block-height/177788
385 2012-05-03 10:40:50 <sipa> which one is yours?
386 2012-05-03 10:41:09 <denisx> 0x00000000000006d883941598b21319df4d8eb555dfd7f5913a283a360b87b9a8
387 2012-05-03 10:42:09 <denisx> it is my first invalid block (some coding accidents not included ;)
388 2012-05-03 10:42:16 <denisx> so expected I lost a time race
389 2012-05-03 10:42:20 <denisx> but not in 5min
390 2012-05-03 10:43:06 <drizztbsd> denisx: are you developing a miner? :)
391 2012-05-03 10:43:19 <denisx> drizztbsd: no
392 2012-05-03 10:43:57 <denisx> I operate a small pool and make changes to pushpoold
393 2012-05-03 10:51:51 ferroh_ is now known as ferroh
394 2012-05-03 10:52:05 <denisx> there is also one orphan before mine nearly 6 minutes apart
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413 2012-05-03 11:49:16 <finway> Hey, devs
414 2012-05-03 11:49:39 <finway> Did you noticed satoshidice.com recently made a lot of transactions ?
415 2012-05-03 11:50:01 <finway> Addresses start with 1dice
416 2012-05-03 11:50:16 <finway> It's so popular
417 2012-05-03 11:51:03 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
418 2012-05-03 11:51:29 <finway> They made 200 transactions per hour
419 2012-05-03 11:52:05 <finway> That's one half of the volume of the network.
420 2012-05-03 11:53:03 <Diablo-D3> by tx count yeah
421 2012-05-03 11:53:05 <Diablo-D3> but not my money
422 2012-05-03 11:53:54 <Joric> Transactions per day back to July '11 level http://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?timespan=360days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=7
423 2012-05-03 11:56:19 <finway> Since P2SH was implemented, when will MERKREE TREE PRUNING be implented ?
424 2012-05-03 11:56:35 <finway> I think we'll hit scalability problem earlier.
425 2012-05-03 11:57:05 <finway> Do someone have pullrequest for that ?
426 2012-05-03 11:57:17 <finway> SPV mode
427 2012-05-03 11:57:39 <sipa> merkle tree pruning and SPV mode are not the same thing
428 2012-05-03 11:57:48 <sipa> and SPV mode is already implemented by BitcoinJ
429 2012-05-03 11:57:52 <finway> oh
430 2012-05-03 11:57:59 <Joric> i don't like their stats it's full of LOSE didn't they check it themselves
431 2012-05-03 11:58:19 <sipa> and merkle tree pruning... unsure whether it will ever be very useful
432 2012-05-03 11:58:50 <finway> someone are betting 126.x_times_level
433 2012-05-03 11:59:02 <paulo_> won't using merkle tree pruning mean that at some point everyone will lose previous transactions?
434 2012-05-03 11:59:11 <sipa> i've already implemented a proof of concept that does it, but it is extremely slow (it wasn't intended to be fast either), and results in an approximately 50% smaller block datbase
435 2012-05-03 11:59:26 <sipa> paulo_: you obviously only prune old & spent transactions
436 2012-05-03 11:59:29 <sipa> and not your own
437 2012-05-03 11:59:49 <paulo_> ah, makes sense. Why isn't it implemented?
438 2012-05-03 12:00:18 <sipa> because not implementing it is 1) far easier 2) not everyone can prune anyway in the current protocol
439 2012-05-03 12:00:32 <sipa> pruned nodes can do full validation, but cannot provide the blockchain to new nodes
440 2012-05-03 12:01:56 <finway> So, pruned nodes need to download full blockchain from full nodes, then prune , and work alone ?
441 2012-05-03 12:02:04 denisx_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
442 2012-05-03 12:02:28 <finway> That dosen't sound useful...
443 2012-05-03 12:03:17 <sipa> if disk space is the problem, it may be useful
444 2012-05-03 12:03:30 <sipa> but i doubt disk space will be the limiting factor for full nodes in the future
445 2012-05-03 12:03:30 denisx has joined
446 2012-05-03 12:03:35 <finway> yeah, now it's far from there.
447 2012-05-03 12:03:54 <finway> It's the time to build a full node.
448 2012-05-03 12:04:09 <etotheipi__> well it's still useful if you have a way for nodes to share the results of pruning
449 2012-05-03 12:05:30 <etotheipi__> just like blockheaders which are supposed to be consistent, and provide a map of what blocks there are, there could be messages implemented to allow nodes to download the pruned blockchain in pieces and verify individual pieces, verify against headers, and still confirm the longest chain
450 2012-05-03 12:06:16 <etotheipi__> (this is something I want to do in Armory.... when it's *done*)
451 2012-05-03 12:06:33 tyn has joined
452 2012-05-03 12:06:53 <finway> etotheipi, why don't your implement validation in Armory ?
453 2012-05-03 12:07:12 etotheipi__ is now known as etotheipi_
454 2012-05-03 12:08:12 <etotheipi_> finway: that's potentially multiple months of pain and suffering, and ultimately ending up with a buggy version of block validation that causes blockchain forks
455 2012-05-03 12:09:07 <finway> bitcoinJ doesn't do a fork
456 2012-05-03 12:09:48 <finway> more implementations are good
457 2012-05-03 12:09:50 <etotheipi_> some client developers want to make it their mission to reimplement that... and if you're willing to give it your all, that works
458 2012-05-03 12:10:14 <etotheipi_> but my focus is on enabling new functionality on the network, not reimplementing the networking engine
459 2012-05-03 12:10:29 <finway> etotheipi, i bet you're right
460 2012-05-03 12:10:49 <etotheipi_> however, I will, eventually, figure out how to integrate someone else's networking library
461 2012-05-03 12:10:56 <etotheipi_> so that Armory can be standalone
462 2012-05-03 12:12:48 <finway> pitty my python skills are pretty lame.
463 2012-05-03 12:13:18 Pasha is now known as Cory
464 2012-05-03 12:13:20 <etotheipi_> although to be fair... I think it would be "fun" to do the networking stuff
465 2012-05-03 12:13:38 <finway> etotheipi, will you consider twisted ?
466 2012-05-03 12:13:40 <etotheipi_> I just re-learned python-twisted and it's a delightful little networking environment
467 2012-05-03 12:13:58 <finway> haa
468 2012-05-03 12:14:05 <etotheipi_> finway: I already use twisted in Armory, but very limited: just for light communication between Armory and the satoshi client
469 2012-05-03 12:14:54 <Joric> comeon pain and suffering everybody knows programming is a pure joy
470 2012-05-03 12:16:29 <etotheipi_> but I recently re-read the awesome tutorial on twisted and am kind of anxious to play with it: http://krondo.com/?page_id=1327
471 2012-05-03 12:18:20 <finway> ha
472 2012-05-03 12:18:45 <finway> etotheipi, how long have you played with python ?
473 2012-05-03 12:18:51 <etotheipi_> I've probably read through the first 15 sections about 3 times now...
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492 2012-05-03 13:04:20 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1189 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1189>
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503 2012-05-03 13:28:45 <paulo_> is there a tool that converts private keys into bitcoin addresses?
504 2012-05-03 13:32:55 <ThomasV> paulo: pywallet
505 2012-05-03 13:36:32 <etotheipi_> paulo_: you can do it with the ECDSA calculator in Armory, which works in offline mode
506 2012-05-03 13:36:51 <paulo_> ok, thanks.
507 2012-05-03 13:37:06 <etotheipi_> just copy the key into the private key field, in any format, and click "Calculate" and it will compute the public key, hash160, and addr str
508 2012-05-03 13:37:22 <paulo_> saves me from downloading python.
509 2012-05-03 13:37:34 <etotheipi_> armory has full installers now
510 2012-05-03 13:37:51 <etotheipi_> and it will put "Armory (Offline)" in your menu
511 2012-05-03 13:37:56 <etotheipi_> (yes I'm very proud of this upgrade :))
512 2012-05-03 13:38:14 <etotheipi_> but come on... python is awesome!
513 2012-05-03 13:38:40 <etotheipi_> http://bitcoinarmory.com/index.php/get-armory
514 2012-05-03 13:38:48 occulta has joined
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521 2012-05-03 13:59:51 <finway> Oh, satoshidice.com are losing control
522 2012-05-03 14:00:00 <finway> txes are flushing...
523 2012-05-03 14:00:15 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
524 2012-05-03 14:00:38 <etotheipi_> that looks like a cool site
525 2012-05-03 14:00:42 <etotheipi_> I've been meaning to try it...
526 2012-05-03 14:00:49 <finway> It's 400 txes per hour now.
527 2012-05-03 14:01:20 <finway> Something like explotion
528 2012-05-03 14:01:22 <etotheipi_> heh...is that why the blockchain size has been accelerating recently :)
529 2012-05-03 14:02:05 <finway> I bet it is.
530 2012-05-03 14:02:55 <etotheipi_> gah, another site that should implement URLs...
531 2012-05-03 14:03:02 <ThomasV> is the number of tx rise caused by a real increase of usage?
532 2012-05-03 14:03:15 <finway> It's real.
533 2012-05-03 14:03:16 <finway> But it's fast.
534 2012-05-03 14:03:21 capiscuas has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
535 2012-05-03 14:03:23 <etotheipi_> I finally went to all the effort to implement URL handling, and none of these sites support it!
536 2012-05-03 14:03:25 <ThomasV> or is someone spamming the chain?
537 2012-05-03 14:03:33 <finway> Maybe some double spending.
538 2012-05-03 14:03:37 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
539 2012-05-03 14:03:50 <finway> and maybe some spamming.
540 2012-05-03 14:04:11 occulta has joined
541 2012-05-03 14:04:17 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: I asked cinfu.com to implement bitcoin: URIs. guess how long it took them?
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546 2012-05-03 14:06:00 <finway> We are getting a new high level of no.transactions per day.
547 2012-05-03 14:06:03 <finway> More than 15k
548 2012-05-03 14:06:34 <finway> This is crazy.
549 2012-05-03 14:06:43 <paulo_> finway: what is the usual?
550 2012-05-03 14:07:00 <finway> usual are 6k-8k
551 2012-05-03 14:07:03 <ThomasV> paulo_: http://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?showDataPoints=false&show_header=true&daysAverageString=1×pan=&scale=0&address=
552 2012-05-03 14:07:15 <copumpkin> finway: you think it's all due to satoshi's dice?
553 2012-05-03 14:07:18 <copumpkin> I'd believe it
554 2012-05-03 14:07:21 <copumpkin> it looks pretty popular
555 2012-05-03 14:07:22 <finway> Sure
556 2012-05-03 14:07:31 <etotheipi_> that's surprisingly cyclic
557 2012-05-03 14:07:58 <finway> copumpkin, search addresses start_with '1dice'
558 2012-05-03 14:08:00 <finway> Or check their site.
559 2012-05-03 14:08:03 <etotheipi_> it can't be weekly
560 2012-05-03 14:08:42 <paulo_> looks like the last time the most transactions per day happened was when it reached $30 per BTC
561 2012-05-03 14:08:51 vigilyn2 is now known as vigilyn
562 2012-05-03 14:09:11 <finway> SatoshiDICE are rolling, crazyly.
563 2012-05-03 14:10:07 <finway> I bet it'll be more than 15k today.
564 2012-05-03 14:10:10 <jeremias> I would make some kind of limit for the amount...
565 2012-05-03 14:10:28 <jeremias> because the amount of transactions is annoying
566 2012-05-03 14:10:59 <finway> This can't be manual.
567 2012-05-03 14:11:21 <jeremias> people are betting 0.05 BTC bets = 25 cents
568 2012-05-03 14:11:47 <paulo_> http://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
569 2012-05-03 14:11:56 <paulo_> what's with those 10k spikes?
570 2012-05-03 14:12:21 <etotheipi_> what's with the x-axis?
571 2012-05-03 14:12:30 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
572 2012-05-03 14:12:47 <paulo_> sometime around May.
573 2012-05-03 14:14:13 <finway> My Bitcoin folder are 1.7GB now.
574 2012-05-03 14:15:20 MobiusL has joined
575 2012-05-03 14:15:33 <neofutur> this is the size of the blockchain, and it will always grow
576 2012-05-03 14:15:45 <finway> Didn't expect scalability problems comming so fast.
577 2012-05-03 14:16:01 <neofutur> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=71542
578 2012-05-03 14:16:13 <neofutur> you re not the only one to have this problem
579 2012-05-03 14:16:34 <jeremias> 1.7 GB isn't that much
580 2012-05-03 14:16:43 <jeremias> HD movie takes easily 8GB
581 2012-05-03 14:16:48 <neofutur> depend if you are using a eepc 4G or not
582 2012-05-03 14:16:58 <neofutur> ( 4 GB disk )
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585 2012-05-03 14:18:08 <finway> jeremias, setting new full nodes are.
586 2012-05-03 14:18:10 <neofutur> eeepc being just one example of a small device people use
587 2012-05-03 14:18:42 <etotheipi_> neofutur: what kind of eeepc are you using?
588 2012-05-03 14:18:52 <etotheipi_> my eeepc I got 4 years ago had a 160 GB HD
589 2012-05-03 14:18:57 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
590 2012-05-03 14:19:07 <neofutur> eh I still have the first one, eepc 4G
591 2012-05-03 14:19:08 <etotheipi_> and i thought that was a cheaper one
592 2012-05-03 14:19:10 <neofutur> eeepc 4G
593 2012-05-03 14:19:25 b4epoche has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
594 2012-05-03 14:19:27 <etotheipi_> well your point is still valid... I'm just surprised by the eeepc specs
595 2012-05-03 14:19:55 delt0r__ has joined
596 2012-05-03 14:20:02 <neofutur> http://www.fixya.com/search/p636635-asus_eee_pc_4g_pc_notebook/low_disk_space
597 2012-05-03 14:20:06 <neofutur> from 2008 ;)
598 2012-05-03 14:20:31 <neofutur> its the first eeepc asus made
599 2012-05-03 14:21:06 <neofutur> milions sold in europe afaik
600 2012-05-03 14:21:32 <finway> Gambling people are craaaaaazy.
601 2012-05-03 14:21:40 <neofutur> they came very cheap in a bundle with the first 3G contracts
602 2012-05-03 14:21:45 <finway> It's 600 txes per hour now.
603 2012-05-03 14:21:50 <drizztbsd> finway: trading is gambling :P
604 2012-05-03 14:22:15 <etotheipi_> ack, this reminds me that I need to upgrade Armory to handle multiple blk000X.dat files
605 2012-05-03 14:22:16 <etotheipi_> :(
606 2012-05-03 14:22:29 <etotheipi_> I originally wrote it not realizing there could be more than one
607 2012-05-03 14:23:25 b4epoche has joined
608 2012-05-03 14:24:14 <neofutur> ( I also have a laptop with more disks, but I wish I could also use bitcoin on the small eeepc i always travel with
609 2012-05-03 14:24:20 <drizztbsd> etotheipi_: why do you have more?
610 2012-05-03 14:24:30 <neofutur> or on the raspberry pi that recently came out
611 2012-05-03 14:25:20 cande has joined
612 2012-05-03 14:25:27 <etotheipi_> drizztbsd: I use Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind's blockchain file... which is blk0001.dat... it will stop updating that file after 2 GB and start new data to blk0002.dat, etc
613 2012-05-03 14:25:47 <drizztbsd> oh, fat32 (sux) compliancy
614 2012-05-03 14:26:02 <etotheipi_> but I wrote this originally when the blockchain file was like 400 MB and didn't even realize there was a limit
615 2012-05-03 14:26:11 <etotheipi_> (I should've known, but didn't even think about it)
616 2012-05-03 14:26:13 <finway> My Raspberry Pi will arrive at July, but i guess i can't using it to load a full bitcoin node then...:(
617 2012-05-03 14:26:31 <etotheipi_> finway: but you can use it as an offline signing device for Armory :)
618 2012-05-03 14:26:54 <finway> etotheipi, i like full nodes, it's full.
619 2012-05-03 14:27:08 <etotheipi_> finway: well then, get two
620 2012-05-03 14:27:11 <etotheipi_> :)
621 2012-05-03 14:27:43 fpgaminer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
622 2012-05-03 14:27:48 <etotheipi_> I've been thiking about ways to simplify Armory's cold storage, and I think Raspberry Pi + 3D printer would work well :)
623 2012-05-03 14:28:31 <etotheipi_> plenty of people have old laptops, but it would be cool to print off custom pi cases and sell them as dedicated cold-storage signers...
624 2012-05-03 14:28:49 <finway> etotheipi, i'm using 32bit windows :(
625 2012-05-03 14:29:57 <etotheipi_> finway: don't worry, I haven't forgotten you
626 2012-05-03 14:30:06 <etotheipi_> I've just neglected you temporarily, that's all :)
627 2012-05-03 14:30:31 <finway> :P
628 2012-05-03 14:32:01 <finway> You should listen to this, like heart beating. http://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions
629 2012-05-03 14:32:37 <finway> Much faster than before.
630 2012-05-03 14:32:50 danbri has joined
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632 2012-05-03 14:33:54 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
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643 2012-05-03 14:45:21 <etotheipi_> sipa, something mild to consider... in Armory, I created wallet IDs from the root address + network byte
644 2012-05-03 14:45:39 <etotheipi_> actually, from root address and the first child address ,
645 2012-05-03 14:46:04 tcatm has joined
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647 2012-05-03 14:46:04 tcatm has joined
648 2012-05-03 14:46:14 <etotheipi_> the reason for this was so that the "ID" identifies network (mainnet,testnet,etc), and the determinism as well
649 2012-05-03 14:46:27 fpgaminer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
650 2012-05-03 14:46:38 <etotheipi_> if you were to change the determinism algorithm (which I did early on in Armory) it should end up with a different ID
651 2012-05-03 14:46:45 fpgaminer has joined
652 2012-05-03 14:47:28 Diapolo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
653 2012-05-03 14:48:44 <etotheipi_> sipa: actually looking at the spec, it would be fine to just hash the serialized public parent
654 2012-05-03 14:49:11 <etotheipi_> that captures at least addr, chaincode and network
655 2012-05-03 14:50:15 <paulo_> no pywallet channel?
656 2012-05-03 14:51:18 <etotheipi_> paulo_: Armory didn't work for you?
657 2012-05-03 14:51:39 <paulo_> changed my mind, chose pywallet instead
658 2012-05-03 14:51:52 <paulo_> I want to learn python, too.
659 2012-05-03 14:52:28 <etotheipi_> well I definitely approve of learning python :)
660 2012-05-03 14:53:23 <paulo_> but I get socket errors on pywallet
661 2012-05-03 14:57:16 smtmnyz has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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664 2012-05-03 15:01:47 rdponticelli has joined
665 2012-05-03 15:07:34 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Pi is seriously overkill hardware for keystorage/signer.
666 2012-05-03 15:07:56 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: and a laptop with 512 MB of RAM isn't?
667 2012-05-03 15:08:50 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: well okay... if I'm going to start out with the intention to make a new device... I could try something more lightweight... I just don't have any experience with creating such devices
668 2012-05-03 15:09:14 <etotheipi_> the laptop thing makes sense because people have those laying around anyway...
669 2012-05-03 15:09:15 <gmaxwell> amazing. The look of disapproval works over IRC without me typing anything!
670 2012-05-03 15:09:32 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: right, and because if you get bored of bitcoin they can be repurposed.
671 2012-05-03 15:09:48 <etotheipi_> but that argument applies to Pis, too
672 2012-05-03 15:11:24 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
673 2012-05-03 15:13:00 paulo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
674 2012-05-03 15:20:28 Clipse has joined
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676 2012-05-03 15:21:13 darkee has joined
677 2012-05-03 15:23:27 hazek has joined
678 2012-05-03 15:25:04 <etotheipi_> I really just want an excuse to buy a 3D printer
679 2012-05-03 15:25:15 <etotheipi_> it looks like a super-fun hobby
680 2012-05-03 15:25:23 Diapolo has joined
681 2012-05-03 15:26:15 <hazek> could anyone tell me if I'm right thinking that the "mathematical proof" (valid digital signature, valid hashing result) in Bitcoin is always different?
682 2012-05-03 15:26:37 <Joric> yep theres nonce
683 2012-05-03 15:26:58 <hazek> so even if I'm singing a transaction with the same bitcoins
684 2012-05-03 15:27:04 <Joric> yeah every time you sign the transaction it changes
685 2012-05-03 15:27:17 <Joric> eg http://brainwallet.org#transactions
686 2012-05-03 15:27:22 <hazek> right, this makes it impossible for anyone to figure out the private key right?
687 2012-05-03 15:27:32 <etotheipi_> it's actually a security snafu if you use the same random number for two different sigs
688 2012-05-03 15:27:44 <hazek> snafu?
689 2012-05-03 15:28:06 <etotheipi_> slang for "seriously bad news"
690 2012-05-03 15:28:15 <etotheipi_> (Situation Normal, All Fucked Up)
691 2012-05-03 15:28:23 <hazek> :P
692 2012-05-03 15:28:46 <hazek> I'm writing the script for my upcoming bitcoin learning curve video
693 2012-05-03 15:28:49 <hazek> and i wanted to make sure
694 2012-05-03 15:29:21 <hazek> of course I'm not going into detail but still I didn't want to say something that wasn't true
695 2012-05-03 15:29:35 <etotheipi_> so ECDSA signatures require a random number which means signing the same data twice results in different sigs
696 2012-05-03 15:29:37 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: RainbowDashh)
697 2012-05-03 15:29:46 <etotheipi_> other sig algorithms like RSA do not do that
698 2012-05-03 15:29:48 <hazek> right
699 2012-05-03 15:29:49 <etotheipi_> they will look the same every time
700 2012-05-03 15:30:07 <hazek> you mean they will be valid both times
701 2012-05-03 15:30:10 <hazek> but look different
702 2012-05-03 15:30:40 <hazek> ie unique
703 2012-05-03 15:30:41 <etotheipi_> if I sign msg A twice with ECDSA: I will get two signatures that look completely different, but they're both valid
704 2012-05-03 15:30:58 <etotheipi_> the math with the sig+msg+pubkey works out
705 2012-05-03 15:31:11 <hazek> right
706 2012-05-03 15:31:12 <etotheipi_> if I do the same thing with RSA, the signatures are going to be identical
707 2012-05-03 15:31:28 <hazek> and this is what ensures eventhough bitcoins reside in the digital world one cannot copy them
708 2012-05-03 15:31:31 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
709 2012-05-03 15:31:44 <etotheipi_> that's not what gives it security
710 2012-05-03 15:31:49 <hazek> no no
711 2012-05-03 15:31:51 <hazek> I understand
712 2012-05-03 15:31:56 <hazek> believe me
713 2012-05-03 15:32:06 <hazek> it's just the language i'm going to use to explain it
714 2012-05-03 15:32:35 <hazek> anyway ty for your help
715 2012-05-03 15:32:36 <etotheipi_> right... only the owner of an address can provide the signature needed to spend it
716 2012-05-03 15:32:43 paulo_ has joined
717 2012-05-03 15:32:48 <hazek> yep
718 2012-05-03 15:32:52 <hazek> ty buddy
719 2012-05-03 15:32:53 <paulo_> what makes ECDSA non-deterministic?
720 2012-05-03 15:33:41 <hazek> [17:27] <etotheipi_> so ECDSA signatures require a random number which means signing the same data twice results in different sigs
721 2012-05-03 15:33:55 <hazek> that's what paulo_
722 2012-05-03 15:34:07 <paulo_> what if we use the same number?
723 2012-05-03 15:34:10 <ciscoftw> anybody using the 'bitcoin-dissector' for wireshark?
724 2012-05-03 15:34:22 <hazek> then it wouldn't be a random number
725 2012-05-03 15:34:31 <etotheipi_> if you believe wiki... using the same random number twice is what allowed hackers to break PS3 encryption
726 2012-05-03 15:34:53 <hazek> oh if random generator gave the same number twice you mean
727 2012-05-03 15:34:56 <etotheipi_> the private key pretty much just falls out of the equation if you sign two different messages with the same private key and same random number
728 2012-05-03 15:35:07 <ciscoftw> ps3 didnt use a random number, it was like 7
729 2012-05-03 15:35:14 Guest67907 has quit (Changing host)
730 2012-05-03 15:35:14 Guest67907 has joined
731 2012-05-03 15:35:14 <etotheipi_> haha
732 2012-05-03 15:35:19 <hazek> lol those fools
733 2012-05-03 15:35:23 Guest67907 is now known as UukGoblin
734 2012-05-03 15:35:57 hazek has quit (Quit: Page closed)
735 2012-05-03 15:36:06 <etotheipi_> luckily, the random number is 32-bytes, and random number generators are good enough that the sun will burn out long before anyone accidentally uses the same number twice
736 2012-05-03 15:36:30 <ciscoftw> ..it was '4' regarding the ps3
737 2012-05-03 15:36:37 <etotheipi_> ciscoftw: seriously?
738 2012-05-03 15:36:44 <ciscoftw> http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/29/hackers-obtain-ps3-private-cryptography-key-due-to-epic-programm/
739 2012-05-03 15:37:31 <paulo_> i wonder what the hacker's reactions were. lol
740 2012-05-03 15:37:50 <etotheipi_> oh, that codebyte is one of the posts on XKCD
741 2012-05-03 15:38:24 <ciscoftw> int getRandomNumber() return '4' ...so gd fail
742 2012-05-03 15:38:50 <paulo_> so it's the non-deterministc nature of ECDSA that allows us to differentiate transactions that are exactly the same.
743 2012-05-03 15:39:14 <paulo_> (e.g. same inputs, outputs, and amounts)
744 2012-05-03 15:39:14 <ciscoftw> any of you guys using the wireshark dissector? 'bitcoin-dissector'
745 2012-05-03 15:39:27 <copumpkin> paulo_: surprise and excitement :)
746 2012-05-03 15:39:28 <etotheipi_> paulo_: if you sign the same transaction twice... you will get two different sigs and thus two different tx hashes... but only one will be taken by the network and that becomes "the one"
747 2012-05-03 15:39:44 <copumpkin> paulo_: (I'm in that group)
748 2012-05-03 15:40:08 <paulo_> etotheipi_: but what if you really want the same-looking transactions out in the network?
749 2012-05-03 15:40:30 <sipa> etotheipi_: what do you call wallet id?
750 2012-05-03 15:41:13 <etotheipi_> sipa: currently in Armory, every wallet has wallet id: it is netbyte+hash160[:5]
751 2012-05-03 15:41:22 <etotheipi_> of the first address after the root
752 2012-05-03 15:41:32 imsaguy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
753 2012-05-03 15:41:39 <etotheipi_> in base58
754 2012-05-03 15:41:49 <etotheipi_> so when I see a wallet ID, I know immediately if it's for the same network
755 2012-05-03 15:42:08 <etotheipi_> and if I change the determinsm algorithm, the same root key is going to to produce a different ID
756 2012-05-03 15:42:31 imsaguy has joined
757 2012-05-03 15:42:45 <sipa> hmm, i'd just use the key fingerprint?
758 2012-05-03 15:43:00 <sipa> of the chain or the wallet
759 2012-05-03 15:43:22 <etotheipi_> sipa: I'm pointing out that the key fingerprint doesn't help you identify whether the chain is for the same network
760 2012-05-03 15:43:54 <sipa> ok, add a network byte, and maybe a depth byte
761 2012-05-03 15:44:05 <etotheipi_> well I"m just pointing it out for reference
762 2012-05-03 15:44:28 <etotheipi_> it looks like you already ahve the network byte in the "serialized" form
763 2012-05-03 15:44:52 <etotheipi_> I'm just trying to figure out, right now, how to identify "wallets" in the client
764 2012-05-03 15:45:06 <sipa> right, but the serialized form is way too long to function as an id
765 2012-05-03 15:45:35 <sipa> i'd say betwork byte, depth byte, chain key fingerprint
766 2012-05-03 15:46:14 <sipa> maybe we could combine network and depth byte somehow, and limit depth to 63
767 2012-05-03 15:46:26 <etotheipi_> heh
768 2012-05-03 15:46:40 <etotheipi_> ambitious!
769 2012-05-03 15:47:06 <sipa> so you can distinguish what depth a node is from directly
770 2012-05-03 15:47:09 <etotheipi_> right now I use 6-bytes-converted-to-base58 and the IDs are about 8-9 chars long
771 2012-05-03 15:47:13 <Diapolo> sipa: would it be okay to name the first client generated default address "default address"? I think it should have a label.
772 2012-05-03 15:47:43 da2ce7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
773 2012-05-03 15:47:44 <sipa> Diapolo: i don't think there needs to be anything called a default address
774 2012-05-03 15:48:23 <sipa> just generate a key when you need one, and give it a name if you like to
775 2012-05-03 15:48:30 darkee has joined
776 2012-05-03 15:48:48 <Diapolo> sipa: was just another random thought :)
777 2012-05-03 15:49:05 <sipa> Diapolo: i like your devotion :)
778 2012-05-03 15:49:18 da2ce7 has joined
779 2012-05-03 15:50:30 <Diapolo> sipa: And I like the dev team and contributing what my coding-skills allow.
780 2012-05-03 15:53:06 <sipa> etotheipi_: also, i actually hate base58, but adding yet another form of encoding is probably worse
781 2012-05-03 15:54:54 <sipa> etotheipi_: if i had to design it from scratch now, i'd use base32 and a 30-bit CRC
782 2012-05-03 15:54:54 <etotheipi_> sipa: what do yo uhate about it? besides that lcm(64,58) is annoyingly large
783 2012-05-03 15:55:31 <sipa> and start with 5 bit data class and 5 bit version
784 2012-05-03 15:56:07 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
785 2012-05-03 15:56:08 <etotheipi_> I don't totally follow
786 2012-05-03 15:56:24 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120425123149])
787 2012-05-03 15:56:31 <etotheipi_> so your encoded strings would be longer because you'd use base32 instead of 58
788 2012-05-03 15:56:39 <etotheipi_> but you'd shorten the checksums?
789 2012-05-03 15:57:08 <sipa> the checksum right now doesn't provide any guarantee
790 2012-05-03 15:57:45 <sipa> it's unlikely of course, but you could get a valid address by just changing a few bita
791 2012-05-03 15:57:48 <sipa> bits
792 2012-05-03 15:58:24 <sipa> if the checksum needs to have any value, use a checksum that works at the level of the encoding, and not at the data below
793 2012-05-03 15:58:38 <sipa> sorry, s/value/guarantee/
794 2012-05-03 16:00:37 <sipa> (30 bits is a multiple of 5 bits, so it'd just be the last 6 characters that become the checksum)
795 2012-05-03 16:01:08 <sipa> but i'm ranting - it's a very minor weakness right now
796 2012-05-03 16:02:58 <gmaxwell> It's really sad in fact.. with the same amount of overhead we could have something like catching every error that changes less than 6 characters.
797 2012-05-03 16:03:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: exactly
798 2012-05-03 16:03:52 <etotheipi_> well if you are really concerned, you would use reed-solomon
799 2012-05-03 16:04:02 <sipa> no need for an error-correcting code
800 2012-05-03 16:04:02 <etotheipi_> I have foregone that because I don't want to obfuscate the data
801 2012-05-03 16:04:09 <Diapolo> Bitcoin 2.0 can have all this, we just need to allow sending old coins :-P.
802 2012-05-03 16:04:12 <sipa> you just need to be able to detect errors
803 2012-05-03 16:04:12 <etotheipi_> well, why not?
804 2012-05-03 16:04:17 <gmaxwell> You don't have to obfuscate the data for an RS code.
805 2012-05-03 16:04:34 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: you can arrange it so that the N original points end up unchanged.
806 2012-05-03 16:04:36 <sipa> it's just adding some symbols at the end to make the equations valid
807 2012-05-03 16:04:58 <etotheipi_> no way... I thought you had to re-encode all the points
808 2012-05-03 16:05:07 <etotheipi_> err... you know what I mean
809 2012-05-03 16:05:15 <sipa> not if you work in GF(2^256) for example
810 2012-05-03 16:05:24 <etotheipi_> I guess that's what I get for not looking closely enough at it
811 2012-05-03 16:05:24 <sipa> than you can just use the original bytes as symbols
812 2012-05-03 16:05:29 <gmaxwell> Nope, you can arrange it so you don't. So long as your field is GF2^N.
813 2012-05-03 16:05:58 <gmaxwell> (e.g. the RS code used for raid-6 in the linux kernel does this)
814 2012-05-03 16:06:01 <etotheipi_> then why not use it? I thought it can detect N errors, or correct N/2 errors (where N is the number of bytes)
815 2012-05-03 16:06:30 <sipa> etotheipi_: with mining hamming distance 2N+M+1 you can correct N errors, detect M errors
816 2012-05-03 16:06:42 <sipa> minimum
817 2012-05-03 16:06:58 <sipa> bitcoin is beginning to affect my typing skills
818 2012-05-03 16:08:03 Joric has quit ()
819 2012-05-03 16:08:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: with a CRC30 you'd be able to detect any error burst not more than 29 bits long, or any odd number of bit flips
820 2012-05-03 16:09:43 <sipa> a CRC for Z_58 might be trickier
821 2012-05-03 16:11:25 <gmaxwell> I think the actual model of failures is more like complete distruction of whole printed symbols. E.g. you'll never have bursts that begin half way in one character and span half way to the next except via pure chance.
822 2012-05-03 16:12:31 <gmaxwell> So an RS code over the space of the symbols gives you N syndrom characters = all errors involving upto that detected, which is also optimal.
823 2012-05-03 16:13:09 <Diapolo> current max block-file size is 2000MB correct?
824 2012-05-03 16:13:31 <etotheipi_> Diapolo I think its 0x7fffffff bytes
825 2012-05-03 16:13:55 <Diapolo> I subtracted MAX_SIZE I guess
826 2012-05-03 16:14:00 <sipa> it's 0x7F000000 bytes
827 2012-05-03 16:14:11 <etotheipi_> ooh, good to know
828 2012-05-03 16:14:13 <sipa> for some odd reason
829 2012-05-03 16:14:55 Joric has joined
830 2012-05-03 16:15:17 <etotheipi_> so that's 2032 MB
831 2012-05-03 16:15:23 gavinandresen has joined
832 2012-05-03 16:15:34 <etotheipi_> exactly
833 2012-05-03 16:15:47 <Diapolo> right
834 2012-05-03 16:16:23 <gmaxwell> MiB!
835 2012-05-03 16:16:26 <sipa> 2130706432 bytes, 2080768 KiB, or 2032 MiB
836 2012-05-03 16:16:47 <Diapolo> I hate that MiB thing somehow ^^
837 2012-05-03 16:16:51 <etotheipi_> is MiB "million bytes"?
838 2012-05-03 16:17:01 <sipa> Mi = 2^20
839 2012-05-03 16:17:05 <sipa> M = 10^6
840 2012-05-03 16:17:09 <etotheipi_> oh, wtf
841 2012-05-03 16:17:12 <Diapolo> when I say 2032MB I meant 0x7F000000 / 1024 / 1024
842 2012-05-03 16:17:19 <etotheipi_> right, me too
843 2012-05-03 16:17:30 <sipa> no need to overload SI prefixes
844 2012-05-03 16:17:35 <etotheipi_> haha
845 2012-05-03 16:17:41 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: noooo
846 2012-05-03 16:17:49 <luke-jr> SI ftl
847 2012-05-03 16:18:23 <luke-jr> MB = 1024 KB
848 2012-05-03 16:18:27 <etotheipi_> http://xkcd.com/394/
849 2012-05-03 16:18:29 <sipa> KB doesn't exist
850 2012-05-03 16:18:33 <luke-jr> sipa: does so
851 2012-05-03 16:18:43 <sipa> the SI prefix for kilo is k
852 2012-05-03 16:18:55 <luke-jr> sipa: SI doesn't define KB,MB,GB
853 2012-05-03 16:19:10 <sipa> no, but M certainly means 1000000
854 2012-05-03 16:19:16 <luke-jr> only in SI
855 2012-05-03 16:19:17 <sipa> and K is kelvin
856 2012-05-03 16:19:24 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I said that just to troll you. Thanks for being predictable!
857 2012-05-03 16:19:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: >:/
858 2012-05-03 16:20:29 <gmaxwell> (although I do also support using proper Si prefixes)
859 2012-05-03 16:21:18 <sipa> i'd prefer moving to SI entirely, but it seems unrealistic, as people expect any number written using a almost-million-bytes units to mean 2^20 bytes
860 2012-05-03 16:22:29 <etotheipi_> I bet luke-jr has replaced all of his linux tools to display tonal units when using -h/--human-readable
861 2012-05-03 16:22:57 <etotheipi_> and if not, I bet he's thinking about it now
862 2012-05-03 16:22:59 <etotheipi_> ls -h
863 2012-05-03 16:23:18 <etotheipi_> er... ls -lh
864 2012-05-03 16:23:47 barmstrong has joined
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875 2012-05-03 16:55:53 <etotheipi_> sipa, you already have [version byte | depth byte | fingerprint] as the first 6 bytes of the serialization... might as well just use that
876 2012-05-03 16:57:04 <sipa> etotheipi_: nice one; indeed
877 2012-05-03 16:57:06 <etotheipi_> I don't know if it's something you want to formally define in the spec, but for Armory I rely on wallet IDs, and use them for cross-network protection
878 2012-05-03 16:57:46 <sipa> it'd be a chain ID rather than a wallet ID (though the chain ID of the master node could function as a wallet ID)
879 2012-05-03 16:57:59 <etotheipi_> oh, right
880 2012-05-03 16:58:13 <sipa> but i suppose you call the m/k node a "wallet"
881 2012-05-03 16:58:17 <etotheipi_> although I think I'm going to use "chains" was "wallets"
882 2012-05-03 16:58:30 <sipa> or even m/k/0
883 2012-05-03 16:59:09 d4de has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
884 2012-05-03 16:59:20 <etotheipi_> oh should external-chain-only have same ID as both-chains?
885 2012-05-03 16:59:37 <etotheipi_> gah, annoying detail
886 2012-05-03 17:00:06 <sipa> i'll call it a chain ID; if you want to use it to identify something more than a chain, your choice
887 2012-05-03 17:00:49 <etotheipi_> perhaps... that 6 bytes should just be "the fingerprint"
888 2012-05-03 17:01:16 <etotheipi_> it doesn't change the serialization or size
889 2012-05-03 17:01:38 <etotheipi_> and prevents adding more terminology
890 2012-05-03 17:02:04 <sipa> meh :)
891 2012-05-03 17:02:09 guruvan has quit (Quit: I probably voided the warranty on this thing.....)
892 2012-05-03 17:02:17 BurtyB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
893 2012-05-03 17:02:17 <etotheipi_> sipa: do I dwell too much on random details?
894 2012-05-03 17:02:34 <luke-jr> orange!
895 2012-05-03 17:02:35 <etotheipi_> I feel like everything I've brought up recently has been tiny things possibly taken out of proportion :P)
896 2012-05-03 17:03:08 <sipa> etotheipi_: i suppose that could be a sign that there are not too many important things left to discuss? ;)
897 2012-05-03 17:03:32 <etotheipi_> sipa: I'm impressed with the flexibility/elegance of the determiism
898 2012-05-03 17:03:36 <sipa> etotheipi_: so, a 48-bit chain ID, of which about 12 bits are reduntant
899 2012-05-03 17:03:50 <etotheipi_> and I've already decided it's solid
900 2012-05-03 17:03:58 guruvan has joined
901 2012-05-03 17:04:14 paul0 has joined
902 2012-05-03 17:04:33 <sipa> (since the depth is only 0,1,2 or 3 in most cases, and only 2 network byte values are used in the fingerprint (you'll always use the 'public' version there, i guess)
903 2012-05-03 17:04:39 <paulo_> how do I get to the testnet using the satoshi client?
904 2012-05-03 17:04:45 <etotheipi_> I was wondering if depth even really matters that much
905 2012-05-03 17:04:47 <sipa> paulo_: ./bitcoind -testnet
906 2012-05-03 17:04:58 <paulo_> thanks
907 2012-05-03 17:05:01 <sipa> etotheipi_: i think it's useful for detecting what someone wants to do with it
908 2012-05-03 17:05:36 <luke-jr> does the spec consider HD P2SH?
909 2012-05-03 17:05:44 <sipa> luke-jr: no
910 2012-05-03 17:05:52 <etotheipi_> so make it standardized that depth 1 is an account, depth two is a subchain (internal or external), and depth 3 are individual keys
911 2012-05-03 17:05:54 <luke-jr> maybe a good idea?
912 2012-05-03 17:05:57 <sipa> that's orthogonal, imho
913 2012-05-03 17:05:59 Joric has quit ()
914 2012-05-03 17:06:29 <luke-jr> sipa: well, a wallet should be able to say P2SH-Chain-C = 2-of-2(A, B')
915 2012-05-03 17:06:44 genjix has joined
916 2012-05-03 17:06:52 <etotheipi_> luke-jr: I think that's more of an implementation detail
917 2012-05-03 17:07:04 <etotheipi_> I plan to link chains together as such, but as part of the wallet
918 2012-05-03 17:07:18 <luke-jr> and there needs to be a flag "count as my own" or "this is a shared/group chain" etc
919 2012-05-03 17:07:18 <etotheipi_> or rather, file format
920 2012-05-03 17:07:22 <sipa> i don't think P2SH needs determinism; that's the layer that uses keys and builds scripps from them
921 2012-05-03 17:07:30 <etotheipi_> sipa: I think it does
922 2012-05-03 17:07:30 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: oh, I thoguht this spec was for the file format too
923 2012-05-03 17:07:59 <sipa> luke-jr: it defines an interchange format for chains, but not a file format
924 2012-05-03 17:08:07 <luke-jr> i c
925 2012-05-03 17:08:21 <etotheipi_> I think it's important to make the P2SH scripts with yourself (such as for 2-factor-auth) be determinstic so you can recover your P2SH tx without needing the scripts
926 2012-05-03 17:08:27 <luke-jr> in that case, HD P2SH interchange could just as well be a future BIP
927 2012-05-03 17:09:07 <etotheipi_> I was planning on having an entry in my wallet file, or as part of the address serialization that includes [M | N | peerChain1 | peerChain2]
928 2012-05-03 17:09:31 <etotheipi_> and that indicates that this chain is only to be used for M-of-N multisig transactions with 1 or 2 other chains
929 2012-05-03 17:10:00 <etotheipi_> and use some deterministic ordering based on chain ID
930 2012-05-03 17:10:34 <etotheipi_> and only create P2SH transactions using the same child identifier on all chains
931 2012-05-03 17:10:50 <sipa> i see
932 2012-05-03 17:11:15 <sipa> yes, certainly a possibility for a further specification
933 2012-05-03 17:11:37 <etotheipi_> that way, if your HDD fails, you only have to recover your full wallet, and the other watching-only wallet, and you immeidately know how to find all the P2SH tx
934 2012-05-03 17:12:26 <sipa> i'm currently doing week6 of stanford's cryptocourse, afterwards i'll implement my spec
935 2012-05-03 17:12:37 <etotheipi_> it makes it as easy to find your P2SH scripts in the blockchain as it does to find a regular address chain
936 2012-05-03 17:13:05 <etotheipi_> (of course, it doesn't work for arbitrary escrow/contract P2SH scripts... but at least takes the risk out of two-factor-auth)
937 2012-05-03 17:13:43 <etotheipi_> sipa: I don't know if it's something for the wallet spec... I could go either way on that
938 2012-05-03 17:14:35 <sipa> etotheipi_: i admit i haven't thought too much about interaction with P2SH, but what you say makes sense; you don't want to iterate N^k key combinations for an x-of-k multisig scripy
939 2012-05-03 17:14:39 guruvan has quit (Quit: I probably voided the warranty on this thing.....)
940 2012-05-03 17:14:44 <etotheipi_> I still think it's mostly a file-format thing
941 2012-05-03 17:15:33 <etotheipi_> sipa, exactly
942 2012-05-03 17:15:33 guruvan has joined
943 2012-05-03 17:16:43 <etotheipi_> I imagine that given an address chain with a specified child identifier, my getAddrStr() function will retrieve the appropriate M-of-N tx hash
944 2012-05-03 17:17:12 <etotheipi_> s/tx hash/script hash/g
945 2012-05-03 17:17:35 <etotheipi_> actually, that's kind of elegant if we ultimately take luke-jr's suggestion to use P2SH exclusively...
946 2012-05-03 17:18:22 <etotheipi_> getAddressStr() will always return a script hash... if there's no peer chains specified, it's just a 1-of-1 (regular)... if there are peer chains, do the M-of-N
947 2012-05-03 17:18:29 genjix has left ()
948 2012-05-03 17:18:34 <etotheipi_> sorry, now I'm rambling
949 2012-05-03 17:18:54 <sipa> haha
950 2012-05-03 17:19:14 <etotheipi_> but I just decided to forego my major wallet update because there's way too much more to figure out before I can lock it down... such as these details
951 2012-05-03 17:19:28 <etotheipi_> (and a finalized HDW spec :))
952 2012-05-03 17:22:52 osmosis has joined
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960 2012-05-03 17:45:37 <paulo_> will bitcoin-qt -testnet -daemon work?
961 2012-05-03 17:46:02 <sipa> no
962 2012-05-03 17:46:09 <sipa> but bitcoin-qt -testnet -server will
963 2012-05-03 17:46:15 <luke-jr> etotheipi_: I'm still pondering how to resolve the conflict between P2SH and signmessage ;)
964 2012-05-03 17:47:11 <etotheipi_> luke-jr: what conflict is that?
965 2012-05-03 17:48:10 <sipa> i guess because signmessage signs using a key, but luke likes to see it as signing using a transaction
966 2012-05-03 17:48:50 <etotheipi_> are we talking about some specific function in the bitcoind code?
967 2012-05-03 17:49:09 <sipa> i assume he's talking about the principles conflicting, not code
968 2012-05-03 17:50:13 <etotheipi_> I don't have enough experience with P2SH to know the semantics of it, yet
969 2012-05-03 17:50:49 <sipa> the problem is that you can't see which keys a txout requires
970 2012-05-03 17:51:56 erle- has joined
971 2012-05-03 17:55:58 <Diapolo> LOL I made Bitcoin-Qt DoS my SSD by creating an endless number of block-files ^^
972 2012-05-03 17:56:01 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: csrfdez opened issue 1190 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1190>
973 2012-05-03 17:56:58 <etotheipi_> sipa: wouldn't that be a problem of any script-hiding method, including OP_EVAL and BIP 17?
974 2012-05-03 17:57:56 <etotheipi_> no matter what, your wallet is going to have to store the P2SH script in order to identify it later, and then map it back to the keys needed to sign it
975 2012-05-03 17:58:10 <sipa> etotheipi_: luke uses P2SH to refer to the generic "send-to-script-hash" functionality, not the implementation (BIP 12, BIP 16 or BIP 17)
976 2012-05-03 17:58:46 <etotheipi_> okay, understood
977 2012-05-03 17:59:53 <drizztbsd> luke-jr: what to you use on eligius?
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981 2012-05-03 18:10:05 <paulo_> how does the client check if an address has enough balance for a transaction?
982 2012-05-03 18:10:15 <paulo_> does the client go through the entire block chain?
983 2012-05-03 18:11:52 <sipa> paulo_: bitcoin-the-protocol does not know about addresses, these are only part of the authentication system on top
984 2012-05-03 18:11:58 <sipa> internally, everything is done using transactions
985 2012-05-03 18:12:11 <etotheipi_> paulo_: I'm sure that the client maintains/tracks just the small subset of transactions in the blockchain relevant to the address
986 2012-05-03 18:12:27 <sipa> a transaction that wishes to move funds, must explicitly refer to the previous transactions whose outputs get spent
987 2012-05-03 18:12:30 <etotheipi_> essentially, it does all come from the blockchain, but it doesn't have to be scanned every time
988 2012-05-03 18:13:14 <sipa> the address the funds were previously sent to only determines what signature is required to spend it
989 2012-05-03 18:13:58 <sipa> but for example, it does not matter to the protocol if all inputs to a transaction come from different addresses or from the same one; it needs one signature per input anyway
990 2012-05-03 18:24:22 p0s has joined
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996 2012-05-03 18:35:39 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
997 2012-05-03 18:35:59 <paulo_> the first two items that are put on the stack
998 2012-05-03 18:36:01 <paulo_> <sig> <pubKey>
999 2012-05-03 18:36:13 <paulo_> does that come from the redeemer, or the sender?
1000 2012-05-03 18:37:18 b4epoche has joined
1001 2012-05-03 18:40:37 <sipa> the redeemer; the sender can't produce a signature
1002 2012-05-03 18:41:01 <sipa> since that requires the secret key
1003 2012-05-03 18:41:13 <Diablo-D3> ffs alpine lol
1004 2012-05-03 18:41:55 <Diablo-D3> apk install g++ uclibc-dev binutils boost-dev openssl-dev
1005 2012-05-03 18:42:03 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1006 2012-05-03 18:42:28 <Diablo-D3> er apk add
1007 2012-05-03 18:42:33 <Diablo-D3> fuck, libdb
1008 2012-05-03 18:42:52 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: rebroad opened issue 1191 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1191>
1009 2012-05-03 18:45:02 <paulo_> sipa: ok, i understand that hash(<pubkey>)==address is being checked, but what about <sig>? what is being signed?
1010 2012-05-03 18:45:20 <Diablo-D3> apk add g++ uclibc-dev binutils boost-dev openssl-dev db-dev
1011 2012-05-03 18:45:20 <sipa> paulo_: the transaction that spends it (after some preprocessing)
1012 2012-05-03 18:45:38 <etotheipi_> paulo_: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29416.0
1013 2012-05-03 18:45:50 <etotheipi_> halfway down I charted out exactly "what is being signed"
1014 2012-05-03 18:45:58 <etotheipi_> it's a remarkably complicated question
1015 2012-05-03 18:46:42 <etotheipi_> you're signing the transaction, but with a bunch of tiny modifications that ensure that it can't be tampered with and includes extra information for the verifier to know how it was signed
1016 2012-05-03 18:47:11 <etotheipi_> oh, here's the direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1139081/BitcoinImg/OpCheckSigDiagram.png
1017 2012-05-03 18:47:30 <Diablo-D3> sipa: okay, and I run make -f makefile.unix bitcoind USE_UPNP=
1018 2012-05-03 18:47:31 <Diablo-D3> and it does
1019 2012-05-03 18:47:43 tyn has joined
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1021 2012-05-03 18:47:51 <Diablo-D3> http://pastebin.com/dCaYm7wA
1022 2012-05-03 18:48:49 <jgarzik> heh
1023 2012-05-03 18:48:55 * jgarzik sees genjix on asio-users ml
1024 2012-05-03 18:49:14 <paulo_> oh dear lord. looks like i'll have to spend more hours to understand OP_CHECKSIG
1025 2012-05-03 18:49:45 <sipa> Diablo-D3: seems like you'll have to remove the "using namespace boost;" at the top, and refer to it explicitly
1026 2012-05-03 18:49:50 <etotheipi_> paulo_: I spent many hours trying to understand OP_CHECKSIG... which is why I made the diagram
1027 2012-05-03 18:50:07 <etotheipi_> hoping to cut down the learning time to 1/4 with a visual
1028 2012-05-03 18:50:11 tyn has joined
1029 2012-05-03 18:50:23 <etotheipi_> plus I like making diagrams/floatcharts
1030 2012-05-03 18:50:44 <paulo_> etotheipi_: would you say OP_CHECKSIG is an overcomplication?
1031 2012-05-03 18:50:48 <jgarzik> debugging boost is impossible
1032 2012-05-03 18:51:15 <etotheipi_> paulo_: that's a very good question
1033 2012-05-03 18:51:21 <jgarzik> when it works... great. if not, coding a non-boost solution is quicker than wading through pages and pages and lines and lines of template output from the compiler
1034 2012-05-03 18:51:59 <Diablo-D3> sipa: but its not my code :<
1035 2012-05-03 18:52:06 <etotheipi_> paulo_: I don't think so... though some of the complexity comes from accommodating special signature types that aren't currently used on the network
1036 2012-05-03 18:52:20 Diapolo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1037 2012-05-03 18:52:25 <Diablo-D3> sipa: this is why I hate c++, its an ugly nonsensical language
1038 2012-05-03 18:53:35 <paulo_> btw, I found a way to finish the lamport hash with tree compression, gmaxwell.
1039 2012-05-03 18:53:49 <sipa> etotheipi_: i'd certainly change the system works if i could; like adding a non-signed store of data that a transaction can contain, which can be accessed by the script
1040 2012-05-03 18:53:50 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
1041 2012-05-03 18:53:55 <sipa> etotheipi_: and put signatures there
1042 2012-05-03 18:54:51 <etotheipi_> sipa: I never thought about how I would improve it... but i do think the question of whether the current system is unnecessarily complicated is a good question
1043 2012-05-03 18:55:02 <etotheipi_> now that I have so much experience with it, it doesn't feel so complicated
1044 2012-05-03 18:55:23 <Diablo-D3> sipa: nope, removing namespace boost doesnt help
1045 2012-05-03 18:55:33 <etotheipi_> sipa: what would you put in the non-signed store?
1046 2012-05-03 18:55:38 <sipa> etotheipi_: signatures
1047 2012-05-03 18:56:48 <etotheipi_> what would that enable?
1048 2012-05-03 18:56:55 <etotheipi_> (I guess I can't visualize the change)
1049 2012-05-03 18:57:03 <gmaxwell> paulo_: Awesome!
1050 2012-05-03 18:57:22 <sipa> etotheipi_: not needing hacks for meddling with the transaction data before signing
1051 2012-05-03 18:57:44 <gmaxwell> paulo_: I made some more comments about it after you left last time.
1052 2012-05-03 18:57:47 <sipa> by having a clear separation between what is signed and what isnt
1053 2012-05-03 18:57:54 <etotheipi_> actually, I never considered whether copying previous txout scripts was necessary
1054 2012-05-03 18:58:02 <etotheipi_> I always assumed there was a good reason
1055 2012-05-03 18:58:26 <gmaxwell> paulo_: that is, if you use radix-4 lamport you can reduce the minimum size.. though I think that the increasing tree branching makes it a wash on average.
1056 2012-05-03 18:59:18 <sipa> Diablo-D3: same errors, or differnt ones?
1057 2012-05-03 18:59:28 <sipa> etotheipi_: i doubt there is
1058 2012-05-03 18:59:48 <sipa> etotheipi_: but i'm not too familiar with all complex transaction types satoshi envisioned
1059 2012-05-03 19:03:16 <Diablo-D3> different ones
1060 2012-05-03 19:03:57 <Diablo-D3> http://pastebin.com/JGjzXpux
1061 2012-05-03 19:04:28 <sipa> Diablo-D3: care to try https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/noboostns ?
1062 2012-05-03 19:04:58 <sipa> Diablo-D3: ok, that won't work
1063 2012-05-03 19:05:02 <sipa> never mind
1064 2012-05-03 19:05:11 <Diablo-D3> I think all you did was make it angrier
1065 2012-05-03 19:05:21 <sipa> yeah
1066 2012-05-03 19:06:44 <Diablo-D3> VOTE IN THE POLL OR BE DAMNED FOREVER: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=78919.0
1067 2012-05-03 19:07:07 <paulo_> gmaxwell: is radix-4 lamport?
1068 2012-05-03 19:07:11 <paulo_> *what is
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1072 2012-05-03 19:08:57 <gmaxwell> paulo_: so normally you code binary digits when you sign, hash is zero you reveal the 0 preimage. Instead, you could convert your N bits to N/2 radix-4 values [0,1,2,3] hash is 3 you reveal the preimage of 3. This halves the number of preimage values you must disclose.
1073 2012-05-03 19:09:30 <gmaxwell> The downside is that the trees merge less often when doing tree compression for the public-key data.
1074 2012-05-03 19:09:50 <gmaxwell> (there was some reason why even higher radix didn't work out as a gain, but I don't recall why)
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1078 2012-05-03 19:16:40 geveypro has joined
1079 2012-05-03 19:16:53 <geveypro> is anyone online
1080 2012-05-03 19:17:09 <sipa> no, sorry
1081 2012-05-03 19:17:18 <geveypro> lol
1082 2012-05-03 19:17:23 <geveypro> sipa are you a dev or user?
1083 2012-05-03 19:17:29 geveypro is now known as strangeguy
1084 2012-05-03 19:17:37 strangeguy is now known as randomuser01
1085 2012-05-03 19:18:23 <randomuser01> i want to use bitcoin, but it isnt compatible with my cart, need a dev to put something together
1086 2012-05-03 19:20:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm a developer, but i don't know much about shopping cart software
1087 2012-05-03 19:21:18 Blitzboom has joined
1088 2012-05-03 19:21:18 m00p has joined
1089 2012-05-03 19:21:21 <sipa> randomuser01 i mean; quite sure gmaxwell already knew that :D
1090 2012-05-03 19:21:58 <gmaxwell> Darn, there goes my dreams of someday seeing a Sipacart.
1091 2012-05-03 19:24:00 graingert has joined
1092 2012-05-03 19:24:20 <randomuser01> lol
1093 2012-05-03 19:24:48 <randomuser01> sipa, I use interspire, im assuming I need a payment module
1094 2012-05-03 19:26:56 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1095 2012-05-03 19:31:39 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1096 2012-05-03 19:34:16 drizztbsd has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1097 2012-05-03 19:35:33 barmstrong has joined
1098 2012-05-03 19:37:02 <randomuser01> i assume i need a module made
1099 2012-05-03 19:39:58 barmstrong has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1100 2012-05-03 19:40:11 <etotheipi_> sipa: HD Wallets! http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1139081/BitcoinImg/HDWalletDiagram.png
1101 2012-05-03 19:40:40 <etotheipi_> I have way too much fun with Inkscape...
1102 2012-05-03 19:41:29 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: in mozilla nightly that image is useless.. because moz nightly displays it with a black background.
1103 2012-05-03 19:42:03 <etotheipi_> ugh
1104 2012-05-03 19:42:08 <etotheipi_> should I force the background to be white then?
1105 2012-05-03 19:42:33 <gmaxwell> dunno. put it on a page and it will be fine.
1106 2012-05-03 19:43:22 <etotheipi_> well try the link again (refresh)
1107 2012-05-03 19:43:29 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1109 2012-05-03 19:46:41 <etotheipi_> what about that: http://bitcoinarmory.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/HDWalletDiagram.png
1110 2012-05-03 19:47:06 <sipa> etotheipi_: nice!
1111 2012-05-03 19:47:36 <gmaxwell> the dl.dropbox.com image is fine, the bitcoinarmory.com has a black background in nightly.
1112 2012-05-03 19:48:07 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell... do you use a dark desktop theme?
1113 2012-05-03 19:48:13 <sipa> to nitpick: CKD is more than just HMAC-SHA512 (the secret part is also multiplied with the parent's)
1114 2012-05-03 19:48:46 <etotheipi_> sipa: I was trying to find the right balance between being accurate and not cluttering
1115 2012-05-03 19:48:54 <sipa> ok
1116 2012-05-03 19:48:58 <etotheipi_> I was hoping that the thing on the bottom clarified
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1121 2012-05-03 19:51:02 <sipa> to nitpick even more: i read m_pubkey as "m of pubkey", not pubkey of m
1122 2012-05-03 19:52:27 <etotheipi_> well it should be that "m" is an extended key
1123 2012-05-03 19:53:51 <etotheipi_> just updated with "depth" labels
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1128 2012-05-03 19:57:32 <etotheipi_> actually, sipa... the way the diagram shows it, "m" is a pair(key, chain)
1129 2012-05-03 19:58:07 <etotheipi_> but I'm happy to update it based on nitpickings
1130 2012-05-03 19:58:13 <etotheipi_> can throw it in the BIP if you want
1131 2012-05-03 19:58:50 paul0 has joined
1132 2012-05-03 19:59:20 <etotheipi_> again, the goal was to create a visualization which describes terminalogy, and "the gist" of how the new HD Wallets will be used... not an implementation guide
1133 2012-05-03 19:59:36 <sipa> etotheipi_: sure, m is a pair, but to select the pubkey of m, i'd use PubKey(m) or PubKey_m, not m_PubKey
1134 2012-05-03 19:59:37 <etotheipi_> but if you want to get it up to implementation-level, we can try
1135 2012-05-03 20:00:17 <etotheipi_> sipa: I actually disagree there. CKD(m,n), would suggest that m is an integer
1136 2012-05-03 20:00:25 <etotheipi_> if I put PubKey(m)
1137 2012-05-03 20:00:48 <sipa> ok, pubkey(m.key)
1138 2012-05-03 20:01:28 <sipa> but ignore me; i'm nitpicking, and the image is already very clarifying
1139 2012-05-03 20:01:45 <randomuser01> sipa and etotheipi_ are you guys devs
1140 2012-05-03 20:01:46 <etotheipi_> I would do the same :)
1141 2012-05-03 20:01:53 <randomuser01> i need apayment module for interspire made
1142 2012-05-03 20:02:00 <etotheipi_> randomuser01: I'm not that kind of dev
1143 2012-05-03 20:02:08 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1144 2012-05-03 20:02:14 <etotheipi_> I don't know the first thing about payment processing software
1145 2012-05-03 20:02:18 <randomuser01> etotheipi_: can you suggest anyone
1146 2012-05-03 20:02:27 <etotheipi_> I have no friends
1147 2012-05-03 20:02:32 <sipa> lol
1148 2012-05-03 20:02:33 <etotheipi_> :(
1149 2012-05-03 20:02:53 <etotheipi_> seriously though, I don't really know anyone who is
1150 2012-05-03 20:03:13 <etotheipi_> maybe #bitcoin-otc?
1151 2012-05-03 20:03:22 <randomuser01> ah ifigured i need a dev for this
1152 2012-05-03 20:03:44 barmstrong has joined
1153 2012-05-03 20:03:58 <etotheipi_> #bitcoin-otc channel is much more focused on buying and selling stuff over the internet
1154 2012-05-03 20:04:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: maybe you can add a line at the bottom: x [image of key and chain] = x.key [image of key] + x.chain [image of chain]
1155 2012-05-03 20:05:10 <etotheipi_> should I change the text under the diagram to use "x" instead of m?
1156 2012-05-03 20:05:34 <sipa> maybe m is confusing, as it is used to refer to the master key specifically in the rest of the diagram
1157 2012-05-03 20:05:42 cande has joined
1158 2012-05-03 20:05:44 <etotheipi_> right, so I'll change that to x
1159 2012-05-03 20:07:49 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1160 2012-05-03 20:08:07 <sipa> CKD(x,m): HMAC-SHA512(x.chain, pubkey(x.key) || n) [split arrows] [top part: * x.key -> CKD(x,n).key] [bottom part: -> CKD(x,n).chain]
1161 2012-05-03 20:08:23 Raziel_ has joined
1162 2012-05-03 20:08:50 <etotheipi_> btw, in case you want to play with it yourself, here's the svg: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1139081/BitcoinImg/HDWalletDiagram.svg
1163 2012-05-03 20:08:57 <etotheipi_> probably only works in inkscape
1164 2012-05-03 20:09:10 <sipa> i must admit i've haven't ever used inkscape
1165 2012-05-03 20:09:18 <etotheipi_> nm then
1166 2012-05-03 20:09:28 <sipa> usually i use dia for diagrams, but this certainly looks better :)
1167 2012-05-03 20:09:34 <etotheipi_> great program for diagramming stuff, though
1168 2012-05-03 20:10:15 <gmaxwell> It's easy to start using inkscape and then later realize six hours have past.
1169 2012-05-03 20:11:23 <etotheipi_> it can be slow at first, but you will learn tons of little efficiency techniques that make it easier to organize and modify large numbers of objects
1170 2012-05-03 20:12:03 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1171 2012-05-03 20:12:19 <etotheipi_> if you decide to try it, definitely go to Help-->Tutorials... the tutorials are all inkscape canvases and you play with the examples directly in the tutorial
1172 2012-05-03 20:12:44 <gmaxwell> yea, I've created some fairly complicaated diagrams in it http://people.xiph.org/~greg/eye_chart5.png
1173 2012-05-03 20:13:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: certainly looks eh... compact
1174 2012-05-03 20:16:35 <gmaxwell> or http://people.xiph.org/~greg/flagged_protection5.png
1175 2012-05-03 20:16:47 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1176 2012-05-03 20:19:00 randomuser01 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1177 2012-05-03 20:19:42 <etotheipi_> sipa, I'm not seeing a good way to clarifying the diagram without cluttering the bottom... I think if the user is going to have to look back at the spec anyway in order to implement it...
1178 2012-05-03 20:19:52 <sipa> etotheipi_: ok
1179 2012-05-03 20:19:53 <etotheipi_> I think it's accurate, just underspecified
1180 2012-05-03 20:20:18 <etotheipi_> or take the opportunity to install inkscape and try it yourself
1181 2012-05-03 20:20:19 <etotheipi_> :)
1182 2012-05-03 20:20:34 davout has joined
1183 2012-05-03 20:21:10 t7 has joined
1184 2012-05-03 20:22:40 <davout> o hai
1185 2012-05-03 20:22:45 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1186 2012-05-03 20:22:54 TD has joined
1187 2012-05-03 20:24:24 <davout> who operates bitcoin charts ?
1188 2012-05-03 20:24:39 <davout> (.com)
1189 2012-05-03 20:25:06 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell, sipa
1190 2012-05-03 20:25:08 <Diablo-D3> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76787.0;all
1191 2012-05-03 20:25:18 rdponticelli has joined
1192 2012-05-03 20:25:19 <Diablo-D3> is highlevelminer a scammer?
1193 2012-05-03 20:26:46 <sipa> meh
1194 2012-05-03 20:26:59 <neofutur> davout: tcatm
1195 2012-05-03 20:27:21 <Diablo-D3> sipa: meh?
1196 2012-05-03 20:27:29 <Diablo-D3> I mean, I really kind of have to know this
1197 2012-05-03 20:27:31 <sipa> Diablo-D3: meh, forum drama
1198 2012-05-03 20:28:08 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
1199 2012-05-03 20:29:34 <Diablo-D3> yes, but whas he distributing a rootkit or not?
1200 2012-05-03 20:29:48 <davout> neofutur: ty
1201 2012-05-03 20:36:52 <gmaxwell> it really bugs me that bdb is not valgrind clean.
1202 2012-05-03 20:38:03 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: the sooner someone gets bitcoin working on alpine, the sooner I can get a p2pool node up ;)
1203 2012-05-03 20:40:31 sgornick has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1204 2012-05-03 20:41:49 <gjs278> people still mine?
1205 2012-05-03 20:42:25 <gmaxwell> nope. Computers mine.
1206 2012-05-03 20:42:36 <Diablo-D3> I still mine for fun
1207 2012-05-03 20:42:42 <Diablo-D3> takes a few sheets of paper though
1208 2012-05-03 20:42:59 <sipa> i'm sure there are still people mining
1209 2012-05-03 20:43:05 <sipa> for minerals
1210 2012-05-03 20:43:14 <Diablo-D3> or for fish
1211 2012-05-03 20:43:41 <gjs278> the joke is there are more people mining than ever
1212 2012-05-03 20:43:57 <Diablo-D3> what, for fish?
1213 2012-05-03 20:43:57 <gjs278> Pool rate: 3434 Gh/s
1214 2012-05-03 20:44:44 <gjs278> for nigcoins
1215 2012-05-03 20:46:24 <luke-jr> sipa: no, the code conflicts. How can I signmessage from a P2SH?
1216 2012-05-03 20:47:19 <sipa> the problem is that you don't sign from a transaction, but from a key
1217 2012-05-03 20:47:55 <luke-jr> sipa: P2SH at this point is identical to BIP 16 in most cases
1218 2012-05-03 20:48:29 <gmaxwell> the signature would need to also seralize the script.
1219 2012-05-03 20:48:36 tyn has joined
1220 2012-05-03 20:48:40 <sipa> if you want to prove that you own a particular P2SH address, you'll need to give the P2SH script, and signatures on all (required) keys
1221 2012-05-03 20:49:40 <luke-jr> does EC support combining signatures?
1222 2012-05-03 20:49:49 <luke-jr> so one signature could cover multiple keys at once?
1223 2012-05-03 20:50:18 <luke-jr> I suppose if one could sign deterministically, you could do sign(sign(sign(msg)))
1224 2012-05-03 20:50:46 <gmaxwell> or rather sign(msg)+sign(msg)+sign(msg)
1225 2012-05-03 20:51:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: that just gets long
1226 2012-05-03 20:51:07 dub_ is now known as dub
1227 2012-05-03 20:51:11 <luke-jr> and unweildy
1228 2012-05-03 20:51:43 <gmaxwell> you could combine the public keys .. but users would have to share their private keys to create a composite signature. (otherwise we would have just done that for multisign wallet security)
1229 2012-05-03 20:52:11 Zarutian has joined
1230 2012-05-03 20:52:32 <luke-jr> script+pubkeys+dsign(dsign(dsign(msg)))
1231 2012-05-03 20:52:52 tyn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1232 2012-05-03 20:56:11 <etotheipi_> I don't understand what the problem is... but I want to because I plan to attack this soon
1233 2012-05-03 20:57:05 <etotheipi_> I have a 2-of-2 transaction between two devices (phone and desktop)... I create a P2SH script, hash it, put it in the special BIP 16 txout script
1234 2012-05-03 20:57:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: it's about message signing
1235 2012-05-03 20:57:26 <sipa> not transaction signing
1236 2012-05-03 20:57:32 <etotheipi_> oooh
1237 2012-05-03 20:57:53 <etotheipi_> ooh, now I get it
1238 2012-05-03 20:58:43 <etotheipi_> Mike Hearn sent me stuff on multi-way ECDSA signing
1239 2012-05-03 20:58:47 <etotheipi_> but it was complicated as hell
1240 2012-05-03 21:01:04 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I think you're thinking the stacked signing has some property it doesn't.
1241 2012-05-03 21:01:30 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you can't reduce the size of the signatures by signing signed things, not unless you completely trust the outermost signer.
1242 2012-05-03 21:02:17 <luke-jr> hmm
1243 2012-05-03 21:03:52 <etotheipi_> oh right, it's called "threshold signing" such as a threshold of 5 sigs out of 9 participants
1244 2012-05-03 21:03:53 <etotheipi_> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.twisc.ntust.edu.tw%2Ftwisc%2FMedia%2Fdownload.asp%3Fmedi_id%3D168&ei=9fGiT6LENaSV6AHAppTbAw&usg=AFQjCNE2pZX5hQ5y86SN4b-C_R1uawgblQ
1245 2012-05-03 21:06:46 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
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1247 2012-05-03 21:08:30 <etotheipi_> it's a great concept, but probably infeasible in practice... I think it requires all participants to contact all other participants to exchange data before you can even setup the scheme
1248 2012-05-03 21:09:16 <etotheipi_> and it's so complicated, it's probably extremely difficult to gague whether it's actually secure
1249 2012-05-03 21:10:03 arthurb has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1250 2012-05-03 21:14:16 Glasswalker has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1251 2012-05-03 21:14:43 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1252 2012-05-03 21:16:29 <sipa> it seems my dns seed is able to handle around 8000 DNS queries per second
1253 2012-05-03 21:19:12 graingert has joined
1254 2012-05-03 21:29:45 <jgarzik> my http server can handle 24000 http queries per second
1255 2012-05-03 21:30:15 Lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026200743])
1256 2012-05-03 21:30:39 <luke-jr> Eloipool can handle about 8000 getworks per second <.<
1257 2012-05-03 21:30:50 <sipa> there's room for optimization!
1258 2012-05-03 21:31:02 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1259 2012-05-03 21:31:05 <luke-jr> Eloipool is Python :p
1260 2012-05-03 21:32:22 <sipa> the problem is probably needing to lock the address database, and taking a random sample from it, for each and every query
1261 2012-05-03 21:32:33 <sipa> that's certainly not necessary
1262 2012-05-03 21:32:40 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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1265 2012-05-03 21:36:09 <luke-jr> sipa: could probably maintain a 256-element array of sample-sets constantly being refreshed in order, and pick a random sample-set for each request
1266 2012-05-03 21:36:20 <sipa> luke-jr: yup, implementing that now
1267 2012-05-03 21:36:22 <luke-jr> each sample-set having its own mutex
1268 2012-05-03 21:36:44 <luke-jr> might even be able to set it up so they're only refreshed when "consumed"
1269 2012-05-03 21:39:37 TD has joined
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1271 2012-05-03 21:41:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: copy the address database periodically and serve out of the copy.
1272 2012-05-03 21:41:46 <gmaxwell> You'll only need a lock while copying and otherwise you're lock free.
1273 2012-05-03 21:41:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, i'll request more addresses at a time, and cache those
1274 2012-05-03 21:42:04 <sipa> and then access the cache only from the DNS thread
1275 2012-05-03 21:43:08 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1278 2012-05-03 21:45:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: does your seeder track the nodes' claimed height as a health metric?
1279 2012-05-03 21:45:33 <sipa> i don't think so
1280 2012-05-03 21:46:37 <gmaxwell> I'd say that it should exclude out of date nodesâ but it has no reliable measure of the height itself.
1281 2012-05-03 21:50:49 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1289 2012-05-03 21:58:05 <gmaxwell> 05/03/12 21:54:05 99.9.1.227:2860 version message: version 32400, blocks=164011 currentbest=178483
1290 2012-05-03 21:58:16 <gmaxwell> ^ poor node
1291 2012-05-03 21:59:40 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
1292 2012-05-03 22:04:43 <sipa> ok, 14000 per second now
1293 2012-05-03 22:05:13 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: lol?
1294 2012-05-03 22:05:22 <sipa> still, if it doesn't do anything at all for a request, it's hardly more
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1296 2012-05-03 22:09:02 tower has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1303 2012-05-03 22:19:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: seems kinda low.
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1318 2012-05-03 22:51:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: 23000
1319 2012-05-03 22:52:24 <sipa> i think at that point the CPU usage of the benchmark script starts to interfere
1320 2012-05-03 22:57:47 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: rebroad opened issue 1192 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1192>
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1324 2012-05-03 23:06:23 <paulo_> was looking for a bug for hours now. turns out it was just a memcpy with dest src switched D:<
1325 2012-05-03 23:07:09 <Diablo-D3> paulo_: LOL
1326 2012-05-03 23:07:19 <Diablo-D3> remember, its always backwards
1327 2012-05-03 23:07:21 <Diablo-D3> dst then src
1328 2012-05-03 23:08:13 <gmaxwell> Thats the C convention. Of course, if you touch C++ too much you'll forget it because it seems that C++ has no conventions. :-/
1329 2012-05-03 23:10:37 <luke-jr> it's obvious tho
1330 2012-05-03 23:10:43 <luke-jr> a = b <-- dest before src
1331 2012-05-03 23:12:37 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
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1336 2012-05-03 23:18:25 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: there are a lot of libraries and such written backwards from the convention.
1337 2012-05-03 23:18:40 <sipa> luke-jr: it's certainly reasonable, but it's far from obvious; using "from source to destination" is an equally useful convention
1338 2012-05-03 23:20:38 <gmaxwell> Incoming bitcoin site hacks: http://www.php.net/archive/2012.php#id2012-05-03-1
1339 2012-05-03 23:20:56 <luke-jr> sipa: I'm not aware of any language where source comes before destination. Except maybe assembly.
1340 2012-05-03 23:21:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I keep telling people to not use php
1341 2012-05-03 23:21:30 <Diablo-D3> they dont listen
1342 2012-05-03 23:21:49 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: intel vs at&t on that one...
1343 2012-05-03 23:21:52 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1344 2012-05-03 23:22:10 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: well, in all assembly, you need to load the value from memory before storing it
1345 2012-05-03 23:22:46 <sipa> luke-jr: english
1346 2012-05-03 23:23:18 user_ has joined
1347 2012-05-03 23:23:32 <luke-jr> sipa: English is neutral ;)
1348 2012-05-03 23:23:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: I do wonder if it wouldn't make sense in general to not respond with a public external IP to connections arriving from 127.0.0.1 ... though someone running a hidden service might still have them split between machines.
1349 2012-05-03 23:24:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: if you have a Tor address configured, it will (or should) report that to connections coming from 127.0.0.1
1350 2012-05-03 23:24:30 dsg has joined
1351 2012-05-03 23:24:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: from any non-routable address, actually
1352 2012-05-03 23:24:55 dsg has left ()
1353 2012-05-03 23:25:11 <sipa> but it requires -externalip, as public onion addresses can't be determined automatically
1354 2012-05-03 23:25:14 <sipa> (afaik)
1355 2012-05-03 23:25:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: care to try?
1356 2012-05-03 23:27:09 rdponticelli has joined
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1358 2012-05-03 23:30:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: Right, I was suggesting that it should report 0.0.0.0 to any connection coming from a non-routable IP under the assumption that it's some kind of proxy.
1359 2012-05-03 23:30:35 paraipan has joined
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1361 2012-05-03 23:32:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, the code for determining that is different from what i remember it to be
1362 2012-05-03 23:32:31 <sipa> it can be improved for sure; it is not meaningful to send an addrMe or addrYou that is not routable
1363 2012-05-03 23:32:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: care to try -addnode= or -connect='ing to a57qr3ydpnyntf5k.onion:8333 with the latest version of my branch?
1364 2012-05-03 23:33:23 <gmaxwell> sure, I'd tested it previously. give me a sec to build
1365 2012-05-03 23:33:59 <sipa> i believe the debug output for received and sent version messages wasn't there back then
1366 2012-05-03 23:34:32 <gmaxwell> to make it more fun I'm going to set my real ip in externalip
1367 2012-05-03 23:34:59 RainbowDashh is now known as Luna
1368 2012-05-03 23:35:06 <sipa> you can set both in -externalip
1369 2012-05-03 23:35:22 <sipa> in that case it should report its onion address to onion peers, and ipv4 address to ipv4 peers
1370 2012-05-03 23:36:11 Luna is now known as RainbowDashh
1371 2012-05-03 23:36:27 aga is now known as agath
1372 2012-05-03 23:36:55 <gmaxwell> the fact that I get proxydnsed while I'm -connect is weird and should probably stop.
1373 2012-05-03 23:38:50 <sipa> you mean -proxydns defaulting to on, or the fact that it does a -dnsseed when you use -connect?
1374 2012-05-03 23:38:57 copumpkin has joined
1375 2012-05-03 23:39:20 imsaguy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1376 2012-05-03 23:39:20 <gmaxwell> I suppose in general that connect should disable dnsseed. It's just more obvious with proxydns.
1377 2012-05-03 23:39:27 <sipa> ok
1378 2012-05-03 23:39:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: in any case what did you see from me?
1379 2012-05-03 23:40:01 <gmaxwell> 05/03/12 23:34:21 trying connection a57qr3ydpnyntf5k.onion:8333 lastseen=0.0hrs
1380 2012-05-03 23:40:04 <gmaxwell> 05/03/12 23:34:21 SOCKS5 connecting a57qr3ydpnyntf5k.onion
1381 2012-05-03 23:40:44 <sipa> receive version message: version 60001, blocks=177818, us=0.0.0.0:0, them=0.0.0.0:0, peer=127.0.0.1:49892
1382 2012-05-03 23:41:02 <sipa> that's not good
1383 2012-05-03 23:41:04 imsaguy has joined
1384 2012-05-03 23:41:47 <sipa> unless you did not set any externalip
1385 2012-05-03 23:42:03 <gmaxwell> thats good.
1386 2012-05-03 23:42:23 <gmaxwell> -externalip=71.191.197.79 so it didn't send the v4 one even though thats all it had.
1387 2012-05-03 23:42:32 chrisb__ has joined
1388 2012-05-03 23:42:53 KDuck has joined
1389 2012-05-03 23:42:59 <sipa> in that case, it should...
1390 2012-05-03 23:43:38 <sipa> (not that i think that's optimal behaviour, but that's how i believe the implementation works)
1391 2012-05-03 23:44:18 <KDuck> maybe somebody here can help clear things up about multisig transactions? :) or am i in the wrong place?
1392 2012-05-03 23:44:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: how about now? 05/03/12 23:42:18 SOCKS5 connected a57qr3ydpnyntf5k.onion
1393 2012-05-03 23:45:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: same, but are you running the latest code?
1394 2012-05-03 23:45:31 <gmaxwell> KDuck: Ask away.
1395 2012-05-03 23:46:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm on your onioncat branch at 1cc512225f547ee5a8dab631048106f33937a381
1396 2012-05-03 23:46:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: oops; i've renamed that branch to torhs
1397 2012-05-03 23:46:37 <sipa> onioncat is probably an older one
1398 2012-05-03 23:47:16 <gmaxwell> ah. also, I thought externalip was comma seperated, but looking at the code it seems not
1399 2012-05-03 23:48:11 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1400 2012-05-03 23:48:35 <KDuck> well the way i understand multisig was that it allows some sort of safe transactions with an untrusted party, i updated to 0.6.1 beta to test this but i'm unsure how i would set up such a transaction. i tried reading up on the BIP0016 test transactions but it wasnt really clear to me.
1401 2012-05-03 23:48:36 <KDuck> Say, I want to buy some silver from X, but not sure if he will send it. So what i like is to be able to send the money so that it's gone from my wallet, but not yet assigned to his. Only when i get my silver i can release it to his wallet.
1402 2012-05-03 23:48:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: just specify it several times
1403 2012-05-03 23:49:17 <sipa> KDuck: in that case, you need an escrow to determine whether the funds can be released
1404 2012-05-03 23:49:19 barmstrong has joined
1405 2012-05-03 23:49:23 barmstrong has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1406 2012-05-03 23:49:42 <sipa> what BIP13/BIP16 do allow you, is making sure the escrow can't run away with the money himself
1407 2012-05-03 23:49:46 <sipa> at worst keep it hostage
1408 2012-05-03 23:49:56 barmstrong has joined
1409 2012-05-03 23:50:09 <KDuck> is it not possible to make a transaction that can only go to the seller and not back to me?
1410 2012-05-03 23:50:34 <gmaxwell> KDuck: you can make a transaction that can only be released with the consent of both you and the seller. Yes.
1411 2012-05-03 23:50:45 <gmaxwell> (it 'can't go back to you' assuming he doesn't allow it to)
1412 2012-05-03 23:51:02 <KDuck> gmaxwell, that sounds like the thing i want
1413 2012-05-03 23:51:13 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: RainbowDashh)
1414 2012-05-03 23:51:50 <KDuck> could you tell me how i would set up such a transaction?
1415 2012-05-03 23:52:22 <sipa> you create a 2-of-2 address from both your and the seller's public key
1416 2012-05-03 23:52:53 <sipa> then send the money to that multisig address
1417 2012-05-03 23:53:04 <gmaxwell> There is basically no support for this yetâ 0.6.0 provides the backing infrastructure... but it needs a lot of UI work to actually be useful. (in particular, I don't think we have the ability to redeem exposed when you don't have all the keys yourself)
1418 2012-05-03 23:53:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: indeed
1419 2012-05-03 23:53:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: weird 05/03/12 23:49:17 send version message: version 60001, blocks=178441, us=0.0.0.0:0, them=0.0.0.0:0, peer=a57qr3ydpnyntf5k.onion:8333
1420 2012-05-03 23:53:30 <KDuck> im at 0.6.1beta
1421 2012-05-03 23:53:52 <gmaxwell> 0.6.1 is a bugfixes release it doesn't add user visible features.
1422 2012-05-03 23:54:18 <KDuck> not visible but i thought it enabled multisig transactions on main network
1423 2012-05-03 23:54:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: which -externalip options?
1424 2012-05-03 23:54:37 <sipa> KDuck: the protocol and the network will allow it, but the client infrastructure to gather the signatures isn't there
1425 2012-05-03 23:54:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: both public and an onion .. I just tried again with -externalip=3ysgl2hw35fsquai.onion only.. and same thing!
1426 2012-05-03 23:55:11 <gmaxwell> my commandline is ./bitcoind -proxy=127.0.0.1:9050 -externalip=3ysgl2hw35fsquai.onion -connect=a57qr3ydpnyntf5k.onion:8333 -logtimestamps=1
1427 2012-05-03 23:55:13 <KDuck> sipa, does that mean it won't work? xD
1428 2012-05-03 23:55:39 <sipa> KDuck: it means there is no way to do it yet, but if someone implements it, it will work
1429 2012-05-03 23:55:48 <gmaxwell> KDuck: it means that it will work when we release software that uses it in a few months because all the rest of the network supports it.
1430 2012-05-03 23:56:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: which AddLocal(...) lines do you get?
1431 2012-05-03 23:56:46 <gmaxwell> 05/03/12 23:52:20 AddLocal(3ysgl2hw35fsquai.onion,5)
1432 2012-05-03 23:56:49 <gmaxwell> in the second.
1433 2012-05-03 23:56:52 <gmaxwell> Both in the first.
1434 2012-05-03 23:57:24 <KDuck> ah i see, looking forward to that. So, do i understand this correctly? I make a multisig address from mypubkey+sellerpubkey, send some btc to that multisig addres where it's 'unassigned'?
1435 2012-05-03 23:57:52 <gmaxwell> KDuck: right, it's assigned to that address.. where you and the seller must both cooperate to release it from.
1436 2012-05-03 23:58:10 <KDuck> how would this 'releasing' work?
1437 2012-05-03 23:58:20 <gmaxwell> (Your you could assign it to mypubkey+sellerpubkey+bobspubkey and require 2 of 3 so that bob can arbritrate if there is a dispute)
1438 2012-05-03 23:59:06 RainbowDashh has joined
1439 2012-05-03 23:59:13 <KDuck> gmaxwell, yes that would be extra secure, but 2-of-2 already takes motivation away to either not pay or not send the goods, that was most important, to me at least :)