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11 2012-05-21 00:46:29 <Karmaon> someone alert theymos blkeplr is down
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13 2012-05-21 00:54:29 <gmaxwell> ;;tell theymos < Karmaon> someone alert theymos blkeplr is down
14 2012-05-21 00:54:29 <gribble> Error: I haven't seen theymos, I'll let you do the telling.
15 2012-05-21 00:56:34 <sipa> ;;later tell theymos < gmaxwell> ;;tell theymos < Karmaon> someone alert theymos blkeplr is down
16 2012-05-21 00:56:35 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
17 2012-05-21 00:57:34 <BlueMatt> quotes inception-style
18 2012-05-21 00:58:29 <gmaxwell> ;;tell sipa thank you
19 2012-05-21 00:58:50 <gmaxwell> (who knows why it has that feature!)
20 2012-05-21 00:59:09 <sipa> ;;tell gmaxwell that he is welcome
21 2012-05-21 01:00:42 <Karmaon> middleman talk
22 2012-05-21 01:00:53 <luke-jr> ;;tell gmaxwell it's for bypassing ignores
23 2012-05-21 01:01:10 <Karmaon> ;;tell luke-jr nice to know
24 2012-05-21 01:01:46 <sipa> clearly i'll be forced to ignore gribble now...
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29 2012-05-21 01:17:27 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: jgarzik opened pull request 1367 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1367>
30 2012-05-21 01:17:51 <gmaxwell> http://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions vs http://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular
31 2012-05-21 01:18:02 <gmaxwell> I think this supported my off the cuff suggestion of depriortizing repeated addresses.
32 2012-05-21 01:19:28 <gmaxwell> s/supported/supoorts/
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35 2012-05-21 01:38:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: dunno, would discourage green addressing (which should be discouraged) but wouldnt really discourage idiots who still refuse to use multisend
36 2012-05-21 01:38:57 <BlueMatt> or otherwise sanely limit their txes
37 2012-05-21 01:39:02 <gmaxwell> I don't even mean to discourage them in fact.
38 2012-05-21 01:39:25 JZavala has joined
39 2012-05-21 01:39:53 <gmaxwell> My concern is that no simple fee rule change we'd put in could distinguish between joe blow's free txn, and dice spam / deepspam. The latter classes don't matter if they don't get mined for a couple blocks.
40 2012-05-21 01:40:03 <gmaxwell> but we do want joe users txn to go through quickly
41 2012-05-21 01:40:31 <gmaxwell> so not even so much as 'address reuse is discouraged' but 'address reuse is one way you indicate your txn are low priority'
42 2012-05-21 01:40:42 <BlueMatt> has anyone talked to the dice runner and asked them to please stop spamming so damn much?
43 2012-05-21 01:41:03 <gmaxwell> in particular because if you're reusing addresses it's either an automatic payment or someone you know.. either case you should be in no big rush to get confirmations.
44 2012-05-21 01:41:16 <BlueMatt> true
45 2012-05-21 01:41:50 <gmaxwell> the dice spam is fundimental to their business they could reduce it a little but I think not that much
46 2012-05-21 01:42:05 <gmaxwell> and they're paying lots in fees, so you'd think thats more incentive than me whining at them could ever be.
47 2012-05-21 01:42:38 <BlueMatt> mmm, still Id like to see them limit and group txes to individuals together instead of paying out instantly
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53 2012-05-21 02:01:13 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: instant gratification is key to their business, I thik
54 2012-05-21 02:01:15 <jgarzik> *think
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56 2012-05-21 02:06:07 <jgarzik> interesting
57 2012-05-21 02:06:17 <jgarzik> db_tuner util suggests page size 16384 for blkindex.dat
58 2012-05-21 02:06:26 <jgarzik> (default is 4096 generally)
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65 2012-05-21 02:26:36 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: instant gratification can come in the form of an on-site balance, not just in your wallet, but...
66 2012-05-21 02:29:54 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: but then it's not cool and bitcoiny and distributed and anonymous
67 2012-05-21 02:29:55 <jgarzik> :)
68 2012-05-21 02:29:58 JZavala has joined
69 2012-05-21 02:30:21 <jgarzik> (mind you _I_ am not arguing for this, just saying, this must be what is going through peoples' heads)
70 2012-05-21 02:40:51 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I understand, doesnt mean I dont think they are stupid, but, then...most of getting people to gamble is illogical anyway, so I can see the argument
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86 2012-05-21 03:15:58 <SmithJohansen> Can I speak to a mod?
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97 2012-05-21 03:29:28 <jgarzik> ok, so I'm not crazy. lotsa orphan tx's right now, one every few seconds
98 2012-05-21 03:29:32 <jgarzik> mapsz 300
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101 2012-05-21 03:34:19 <imsaguy> satoshidice tx?
102 2012-05-21 03:39:00 <jgarzik> imsaguy: orphan tx's are unspendable by anybody
103 2012-05-21 03:39:08 <jgarzik> (without the dependent tx)
104 2012-05-21 03:39:29 <imsaguy> any idea what's causing them?
105 2012-05-21 03:42:57 <Diablo-D3> so its burning money?
106 2012-05-21 03:43:09 Maccer has joined
107 2012-05-21 03:44:43 <jgarzik> or might simply be never-valid trash cluttering up node memory
108 2012-05-21 03:44:59 <Diablo-D3> so its not burning money?
109 2012-05-21 03:45:35 <jgarzik> orphan tx's are unspendable... until they are spendable. which might be never.
110 2012-05-21 03:46:26 <Diablo-D3> so it is burning money?
111 2012-05-21 03:46:30 * Diablo-D3 SHAKES JGARZIK
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115 2012-05-21 03:52:28 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: no
116 2012-05-21 03:52:48 <Diablo-D3> k.
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128 2012-05-21 04:32:35 <luke-jr> fyi, make doesn't like -j0
129 2012-05-21 04:32:36 <luke-jr> <.<
130 2012-05-21 04:35:56 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: erm, wouldnt that be infinite gccs?
131 2012-05-21 04:36:09 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: or zero.
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157 2012-05-21 06:52:54 <dub> luke-jr: FYI nobody likes j00
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166 2012-05-21 07:14:39 <SomeoneWeird> Anyone use bitcoinjs?
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192 2012-05-21 08:13:19 <gmaxwell> 20:26 <@jgarzik> ok, so I'm not crazy. lotsa orphan tx's right now, one every few seconds
193 2012-05-21 08:15:32 <SomeoneWeird> Anyone use bitcoinjs?
194 2012-05-21 08:15:52 Bigpiggy01Mining has joined
195 2012-05-21 08:16:50 <gmaxwell> I saw that tooâ My WAG earlier was that someone repeated-input-txned the dice site resulting in a bunch of invalid transactions.
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211 2012-05-21 08:48:11 <gmaxwell> almost all the orphans form a linear chain.
212 2012-05-21 08:50:43 _Fireball has joined
213 2012-05-21 08:57:05 <gmaxwell> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/orphans_straight.png (big image warning)
214 2012-05-21 08:59:24 <Diablo-D3> I think your image broke firefox
215 2012-05-21 08:59:31 <Guest1603> mines fine :D
216 2012-05-21 08:59:36 Guest1603 is now known as graingert_ecs
217 2012-05-21 08:59:48 <Diablo-D3> oh wait
218 2012-05-21 08:59:51 <Diablo-D3> I had to zoom in
219 2012-05-21 08:59:54 <ageis> it's not like it's the Hubble Ultra-Deep Field
220 2012-05-21 09:00:12 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: what are those orphans of?
221 2012-05-21 09:00:16 <Diablo-D3> because those giant forks are kind of scary
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224 2012-05-21 09:01:17 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: orphan transactions, not block Diablo-D3
225 2012-05-21 09:02:26 <Diablo-D3> ahh
226 2012-05-21 09:02:30 <Diablo-D3> but...
227 2012-05-21 09:02:32 <Diablo-D3> why is it doing that?
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246 2012-05-21 10:26:29 <GMP> 55 min without a block.... what is the probability of that to happen?
247 2012-05-21 10:27:30 <GMP> lol!
248 2012-05-21 10:27:41 <GMP> someone read it and posted a block
249 2012-05-21 10:31:07 <SomeoneWeird> Anyone use bitcoinjs?
250 2012-05-21 10:31:17 gjs278 has joined
251 2012-05-21 10:33:16 <gmaxwell> GMP: 100%
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253 2012-05-21 10:33:45 <GMP> lol great answer!
254 2012-05-21 10:34:07 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,tblb 55m
255 2012-05-21 10:34:08 <gribble> 1 day, 12 hours, 34 minutes, and 35 seconds
256 2012-05-21 10:35:04 <gmaxwell> They hapeen once every day and a half on average.
257 2012-05-21 10:35:08 <kinlo> GMP: it happens often that it takes a while to find a block...
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266 2012-05-21 11:21:43 <SomeoneWeird> Anyone use bitcoinjs?
267 2012-05-21 11:21:45 <SomeoneWeird> >.<
268 2012-05-21 11:22:53 <moa7> i wonder if the blocks take longer when there are more tainted coins running thru the system? ;)
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275 2012-05-21 11:53:33 <sipa> ;;bc,tblb
276 2012-05-21 11:53:34 <gribble> Error: There's really no reason why you should have underscores or brackets in your mathematical expression. Please remove them.
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280 2012-05-21 12:05:28 <SomeoneWeird> lol sipa
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284 2012-05-21 12:11:20 <coingenuity> anyone know whether -discover is a valid argument for bitcoin?
285 2012-05-21 12:12:13 <coingenuity> it appears to be via net.cpp but the wiki does not mention it
286 2012-05-21 12:12:29 <sipa> coingenuity: it's in master, but not in any released version
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288 2012-05-21 12:13:31 <coingenuity> ah, ok. if i compile from master, am i to assume it'll do what i've inferred from the .cpp and search for nodes to peer with?
289 2012-05-21 12:13:41 <sipa> sure
290 2012-05-21 12:13:52 <coingenuity> :) cool, i should give it a try
291 2012-05-21 12:14:05 <sipa> -discover is default on; it means bitcoin should try to find its own public ip
292 2012-05-21 12:14:06 <coingenuity> thanks sipa, mucho gracias
293 2012-05-21 12:14:29 <sipa> you can use -nodiscover in combination with -externalip=... to explicitly specify the address(es) you're reachable at
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295 2012-05-21 12:15:02 <coingenuity> oh, interesting
296 2012-05-21 12:15:12 <coingenuity> that's quite nifty
297 2012-05-21 12:15:27 <gmaxwell> Which will helpfully avoid it connecting to the bitcoin node tracing service^W^W^W^W^Wwhatismyip.
298 2012-05-21 12:15:55 <coingenuity> lol
299 2012-05-21 12:16:32 <coingenuity> i'm fairly curious about how i would force a client to peer more heavily than the default, is my main goal
300 2012-05-21 12:17:11 <gmaxwell> listen for inbound connections.
301 2012-05-21 12:17:15 <coingenuity> i know i can use -maxconnections but i'm wondering how i would get my client to handshake with more peers more quickly
302 2012-05-21 12:17:26 <gmaxwell> Otherwise? Sorryâ we don't have a -dosattacknetwork=1 mode. :)
303 2012-05-21 12:18:03 <coingenuity> oh, i'm far from trying to dos ;)
304 2012-05-21 12:18:45 <coingenuity> i'd basically like to have a web of trusted nodes that each can specify on -connect, so that transactions can be verified by multiple segments of the bitcoin network that are highly seeded
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308 2012-05-21 12:23:09 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1368 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1368>
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310 2012-05-21 12:25:17 <gmaxwell> each what can?
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313 2012-05-21 12:29:18 <coingenuity> each node
314 2012-05-21 12:29:31 <coingenuity> so that node1 -connects to node2, etc
315 2012-05-21 12:32:51 <gmaxwell> coingenuity: okay, â the connects (/addnodes) go up more or less right away.
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326 2012-05-21 13:18:41 <dusty_> /m gribble help
327 2012-05-21 13:21:42 random_cat__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
328 2012-05-21 13:22:26 <dusty_> !faq
329 2012-05-21 13:22:27 <gribble> See http://www.bitcoin.org/faq and http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=more_faqs
330 2012-05-21 13:22:37 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
331 2012-05-21 13:23:01 random_cat__ has joined
332 2012-05-21 13:33:54 <dusty_> sipa: the second link of faqs given by gribble is not working
333 2012-05-21 13:34:09 <dusty_> I don't know who manages the config of the bot
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337 2012-05-21 13:43:46 <BlueMatt> nanotube: runs gribble
338 2012-05-21 13:43:49 <BlueMatt> ^
339 2012-05-21 13:51:32 <dusty_> BlueMatt: thanks
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362 2012-05-21 14:57:21 setkeh is now known as ARCHGOD
363 2012-05-21 14:57:49 ARCHGOD is now known as setkeh
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366 2012-05-21 15:05:54 <luke-jr> ThomasV: any reason electrum/stratum aren't CIA'd as modules under bitcoin? :p
367 2012-05-21 15:06:23 <ThomasV> they are under #bitcoinconsultancy and #electrum
368 2012-05-21 15:07:04 wasabi1 has joined
369 2012-05-21 15:07:24 <ThomasV> genjix did it; I do not know how to set these things up
370 2012-05-21 15:07:49 <luke-jr> i c
371 2012-05-21 15:08:22 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
372 2012-05-21 15:19:41 <t7> has anyone found a sha256 fixed point?
373 2012-05-21 15:19:58 <drizztbsd> ?
374 2012-05-21 15:21:27 <sipa> drizztbsd: a 256-bit value that hashes to itself
375 2012-05-21 15:21:41 <sipa> but i'm quite sure no such point is known
376 2012-05-21 15:23:16 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: sipa opened pull request 1369 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1369>
377 2012-05-21 15:24:53 <copumpkin> no such point is known
378 2012-05-21 15:25:05 <copumpkin> it's easy to compute the probability of one existing though
379 2012-05-21 15:25:34 <sipa> 1-(1-2^(-256))^(2^256)
380 2012-05-21 15:26:19 <Joric> t7, noone has found md5 fixed point even
381 2012-05-21 15:26:46 <Joric> not sure about its probability
382 2012-05-21 15:26:56 <t7> i read 60% online
383 2012-05-21 15:26:56 <sipa> which is 1-1/e, afaik
384 2012-05-21 15:27:06 <luke-jr> lol 60%
385 2012-05-21 15:27:08 <t7> which seems too high :|
386 2012-05-21 15:27:12 <sipa> 63%
387 2012-05-21 15:27:29 <t7> i has to be the same length
388 2012-05-21 15:27:41 <t7> oh wait im thinking with strings
389 2012-05-21 15:27:45 <t7> carry on
390 2012-05-21 15:28:02 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
391 2012-05-21 15:28:28 <Joric> is there any malicious use for that? can't find one
392 2012-05-21 15:28:52 <t7> you know if the source string is x
393 2012-05-21 15:28:59 <t7> where x = f x
394 2012-05-21 15:29:02 <t7> :)
395 2012-05-21 15:29:21 <t7> so then i know the plain text
396 2012-05-21 15:29:31 <t7> as long as its x
397 2012-05-21 15:30:27 <t7> unless its something else that hashes to x
398 2012-05-21 15:31:51 <Joric> if only blocks were starting from zeros... infinite money!
399 2012-05-21 15:32:44 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
400 2012-05-21 15:34:24 imsaguy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
401 2012-05-21 15:35:13 PK has joined
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404 2012-05-21 15:39:03 <diki> would anyone perhaps have a DAWG implementation in C?
405 2012-05-21 15:39:09 <sipa> yo dawg
406 2012-05-21 15:40:09 <Joric> must be a recursive language
407 2012-05-21 15:40:49 <Joric> oh it's a data structure
408 2012-05-21 15:40:55 <Joric> Directed Acrylic Word Graph
409 2012-05-21 15:41:27 shadders has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
410 2012-05-21 15:41:39 <Joric> *Acyclic
411 2012-05-21 15:45:32 <luke-jr> [15:39:43] <ljrbot> Blk 00000000000000a2974f462cab5a64e816cb9bfdb2fe1f9f904fe0b006bb50ff: 18tyJrqKKcHdJ46th2icwoKZBZVp6qUsTx 47.90167571 BTC, 1MgH8iNkdZrDW8rsfzifDzsqJnCjBVyRBV 2.50787429 BTC, (None) 0 TBC
412 2012-05-21 15:45:34 <luke-jr> hmm
413 2012-05-21 15:45:38 <luke-jr> what's going on there?
414 2012-05-21 15:47:16 <diki> wow...you paid someone a whole block?
415 2012-05-21 15:47:28 <diki> ...unintentionally
416 2012-05-21 15:47:33 <diki> I wish that was me..
417 2012-05-21 15:48:05 <diki> wow, you paid him twice
418 2012-05-21 15:49:03 <luke-jr> looks like maybe a forked p2pool
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444 2012-05-21 16:37:25 <Joric> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=80815.0 will anyone else do that or you're leaving it to me
445 2012-05-21 16:37:44 <Joric> a whole 25 btc for 3 months
446 2012-05-21 16:40:37 <Joric> i will be able to feed my family and Thomas will devote more time to his fantasy footbal team jk
447 2012-05-21 16:41:42 <Joric> love this video http://www.theonion.com/content/video/more_american_workers_outsourcing
448 2012-05-21 16:43:15 Guest1603 is now known as graingert_ecs
449 2012-05-21 16:43:37 graingert_ecs is now known as BitcoinHacker
450 2012-05-21 16:43:53 BitcoinHacker is now known as bitcoinhacker
451 2012-05-21 16:44:24 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: laanwj reopened pull request 1365 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1365>
452 2012-05-21 16:44:25 <bitcoinhacker> Joric: you want some free bitcoin
453 2012-05-21 16:44:45 <Joric> bitcoinhacker, sure, drop here 1JoricCBkW8C5m7QUZMwoRz9rBCM6ZSy96
454 2012-05-21 16:44:49 <bitcoinhacker> Joric: k
455 2012-05-21 16:44:52 <luke-jr> graingert, are you confessing?
456 2012-05-21 16:45:08 <bitcoinhacker> luke-jr: If I confess to you is it legally protected speach?
457 2012-05-21 16:45:29 <luke-jr> IANAL
458 2012-05-21 16:45:58 <bitcoinhacker> !google IANAL
459 2012-05-21 16:45:59 <gribble> IANAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IANAL>; Urban Dictionary: IANAL: <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=IANAL>; IANAL: <http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/I/IANAL.html>
460 2012-05-21 16:46:09 <bitcoinhacker> luke-jr: I see
461 2012-05-21 16:46:41 graingert_ecs has joined
462 2012-05-21 16:46:45 <graingert_ecs> sigh
463 2012-05-21 16:46:54 <graingert_ecs> jgarzik: >.>
464 2012-05-21 16:46:58 user__ has joined
465 2012-05-21 16:47:14 graingert_ecs is now known as gavinandresen
466 2012-05-21 16:47:52 <user__> bitcoinhacker: please some coins here: 1DApNttZXeSCyggDPuJeerC7VUf4W3PYt6
467 2012-05-21 16:47:58 <Joric> you may confess freely, luke-jr is a local priest
468 2012-05-21 16:48:04 <luke-jr> Joric: don't lie
469 2012-05-21 16:48:04 <gavinandresen> Joric: sweet
470 2012-05-21 16:48:14 gavinandresen is now known as graingert_ecs
471 2012-05-21 16:48:34 <graingert_ecs> sigh I just picked up all of gavin's !later messages
472 2012-05-21 16:48:41 <sipa> haha
473 2012-05-21 16:48:49 <sipa> please don't do that anymore
474 2012-05-21 16:48:53 <graingert_ecs> it was mine warning him to set ENFORCE ON
475 2012-05-21 16:49:09 <jgarzik> graingert_ecs: purpose is irrelevant. stop impersonating.
476 2012-05-21 16:49:12 <graingert_ecs> !later tell gavinandresen Please turn ENFORCE ON on your nick in NickServ
477 2012-05-21 16:49:12 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
478 2012-05-21 16:49:18 <jgarzik> we don't need that crap in here.
479 2012-05-21 16:49:29 <graingert_ecs> jgarzik: bitcoinhacker is one of my official nicks
480 2012-05-21 16:49:45 <sipa> ...
481 2012-05-21 16:49:56 <sipa> you really want a reputation, no?
482 2012-05-21 16:50:36 <graingert_ecs> sipa: sorry I can't see what you are saying can you turn off OTR?
483 2012-05-21 16:51:08 <sipa> ?
484 2012-05-21 16:51:25 <graingert_ecs> sipa: it's a complicated counter-troll
485 2012-05-21 16:51:52 user__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
486 2012-05-21 16:51:53 <sipa> i'm not following, but i don't really care
487 2012-05-21 16:52:05 <graingert_ecs> sipa: that's fair
488 2012-05-21 16:52:26 <graingert_ecs> it was mainly for the people over my shoulder
489 2012-05-21 16:52:40 <luke-jr> this is #bitcoin-dev, not #nickfloodlulz
490 2012-05-21 16:53:05 <graingert_ecs> luke-jr: the fact that chaning nicks spams in all channels is anoying
491 2012-05-21 16:53:13 <sipa> then don't do it
492 2012-05-21 16:53:19 <luke-jr> graingert_ecs: it's a nick, not a message
493 2012-05-21 16:53:27 <graingert_ecs> changing*
494 2012-05-21 16:53:28 <luke-jr> you're not SUPPOSED to change nick generally
495 2012-05-21 16:53:44 <graingert_ecs> is it even ratelimited?
496 2012-05-21 16:53:51 * luke-jr wonders why it isn't.
497 2012-05-21 16:54:19 <Joric> i don't care about impersonating but at least stop promising free coins i didn't get anything
498 2012-05-21 16:54:43 <luke-jr> lol
499 2012-05-21 16:54:44 <graingert_ecs> Joric: you really don't want coin off of BitcoinHacker
500 2012-05-21 16:55:06 <graingert_ecs> because 'gox will probably blacklist them because they are 'gox
501 2012-05-21 16:55:20 <Xeranos> tainted coins are tainted
502 2012-05-21 16:56:03 <graingert_ecs> well untill they are well shuffled
503 2012-05-21 16:56:07 <graingert_ecs> eg into the forceit
504 2012-05-21 16:56:32 user__ has joined
505 2012-05-21 16:56:42 ForceMajeure is now known as info
506 2012-05-21 16:57:17 <user__> grainget-ecs: i want 1DApNttZXeSCyggDPuJeerC7VUf4W3PYt6
507 2012-05-21 16:57:23 barmstro_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
508 2012-05-21 16:57:35 info is now known as ForceMajeure
509 2012-05-21 16:57:50 <Joric> see what you've done
510 2012-05-21 16:58:40 user__ has quit (Client Quit)
511 2012-05-21 17:00:47 Diapolo has joined
512 2012-05-21 17:02:33 <copumpkin> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/361503/weird.png seems a bit contradictory
513 2012-05-21 17:02:38 <Diapolo> @Core Devs, is there an expected release date or any plan available for 0.7 RC-phase? I want to make sure we have a current translation ready by that time.
514 2012-05-21 17:03:51 * luke-jr thinks #936, #917, #1245, #1246, #1240, #1355, #1359 still need merging before 0.7rc1
515 2012-05-21 17:06:48 <Diapolo> luke-jr: This was not meant to push for a RC, I just want to ensure translations get the love they need :).
516 2012-05-21 17:06:55 * gmaxwell stabs all of you
517 2012-05-21 17:07:06 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: Not real soon quite yet.
518 2012-05-21 17:07:20 <Diapolo> then everythin is alright
519 2012-05-21 17:07:28 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
520 2012-05-21 17:07:40 <luke-jr> yay, SIGHUP merged :p
521 2012-05-21 17:07:44 <Diapolo> I want to suggest, that there is a relase shedule in the Wiki or somewhere else, if that's not the case.
522 2012-05-21 17:08:09 <luke-jr> Diapolo: IMO, it's not a time-based thing
523 2012-05-21 17:10:27 <jgarzik> hum
524 2012-05-21 17:10:48 <jgarzik> MAX_ORPHAN_TRANSACTIONS would seem to conflict with a reorg that involves a large number of transactions
525 2012-05-21 17:10:57 <Diapolo> But it should be planned somehow, to have deadlines ensures people work on parts that are important ;).
526 2012-05-21 17:11:21 <jgarzik> we start evicting random orphan tx's at 10,000
527 2012-05-21 17:11:28 <luke-jr> Diapolo: the problem is, merges are held up mostly by reviewers and pullers, not the developers and users who want it ;)
528 2012-05-21 17:12:35 <luke-jr> so IMO it should be more of "when the features ready at the opening of the window are all pulled"
529 2012-05-21 17:13:20 drizztbsd has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
530 2012-05-21 17:14:43 <luke-jr> in any case, "when it's ready" tends to work for most open source projects
531 2012-05-21 17:14:51 <luke-jr> don't see a need for something more formal
532 2012-05-21 17:15:40 <Diapolo> luke-jr: Let me re-phrase what I said, translations need time ... create a new bitcoinstrings.cpp, create a new english-master file, let translators on Transifex do their jobs and then fetch from Tx and create a pull with updated translations. I would say this needs at least 7, better 14 days to mature. With pre-0.7 releases there simply was no real translation-planning or time to do this, as I always got surprised with a RC-rela
533 2012-05-21 17:16:20 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: we should call that the RC windowâ I think it's okay to update translations during RC... and by that time we won't be doing big code changes that disrupt translations.
534 2012-05-21 17:16:38 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: agreed
535 2012-05-21 17:17:00 <luke-jr> I suppose we could call the first one an "alpha" release since it's not really a candidate if we're intending to update translations anyway
536 2012-05-21 17:17:25 <gmaxwell> meh. that would really hurt testing.
537 2012-05-21 17:17:34 <gmaxwell> the strings are alpha, not the code.
538 2012-05-21 17:17:42 <luke-jr> for 0.7, it seems there is some bugs in the new stuff already merged that need cleanup, so it might make sense to declare feature-freeze before RCs get made
539 2012-05-21 17:18:17 <luke-jr> (thinking of the verify message thing mainly - but if coincontrol is merged before it's cleaned up, that too)
540 2012-05-21 17:18:45 <gmaxwell> also we still have sipa's redundant block puller than need to be fixed or come out.
541 2012-05-21 17:19:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I thought it was fixed?
542 2012-05-21 17:19:29 <gmaxwell> Well it works nowâ but it's over eager and pulls when it doesn't need to sometimes.
543 2012-05-21 17:19:31 <sipa> luke-jr: it's been improved already, but there are still redundant getblocks (no redundant getdata's though)
544 2012-05-21 17:19:47 <luke-jr> oh
545 2012-05-21 17:20:12 <gmaxwell> no biggie, I only brought it up because you were listing things that were must fix before release.
546 2012-05-21 17:20:19 <luke-jr> anyhow, we probably have a week worth of fix/cleanup we can do between freeze and rc1
547 2012-05-21 17:20:57 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: did you find it odd that coincontrol can't select single inputs?
548 2012-05-21 17:21:30 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I don't particularly care for coincontrol as-is, but I don't know if showing individual inputs would make me care any more than I do now.
549 2012-05-21 17:22:06 <gmaxwell> Yea, it kinda sucks. :-/
550 2012-05-21 17:22:23 <luke-jr> in fact, multiple wallets seems to make current coincontrol worthless
551 2012-05-21 17:22:27 t7 has joined
552 2012-05-21 17:22:50 <luke-jr> BUT, dooglus's refactoring code probably makes sense either way
553 2012-05-21 17:22:53 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
554 2012-05-21 17:24:01 <jgarzik> that's sorta my feeling -- multiple wallets preferred over coin control
555 2012-05-21 17:24:19 <jgarzik> easier for the user to grasp and manage
556 2012-05-21 17:26:30 mologie has joined
557 2012-05-21 17:30:05 <luke-jr> as long as we're talking about easy to grasp/manage, I have long felt it'd be useful to have a nice GUI with visual coins (amount-sized circles, representing one output each) that can be shown in "account" or address groups and manually hand-chosen for "melting" into a new transaction ;)
558 2012-05-21 17:33:04 <sipa> proposal for command-line argument interaction, when tor hidden service support is added: https://gist.github.com/2763381
559 2012-05-21 17:35:03 <luke-jr> sipa: it's unclear if -bind 127.0.0.1 causes it to bind :: and 0.0.0.0 or not
560 2012-05-21 17:35:38 <luke-jr> sipa: how does -upnp's default relate to USE_UPNP=0/1 ?
561 2012-05-21 17:35:53 <sipa> right, let me update
562 2012-05-21 17:36:45 <luke-jr> what does -proxydns do if you turn it on without -proxy||-onion? :p
563 2012-05-21 17:38:20 <luke-jr> sipa: shouldn't -proxy -externalip result in binding only localhost by default?
564 2012-05-21 17:39:34 barmstrong has joined
565 2012-05-21 17:39:42 <sipa> hmm, that becomes complex...
566 2012-05-21 17:40:28 <luke-jr> otoh, someone might have a normal proxy with port forwardingâ¦
567 2012-05-21 17:40:42 <Diapolo> sipa: I remember I had some findings related to IPv6 that you intended to change, too ... can you remember?
568 2012-05-21 17:40:57 <sipa> Diapolo: sorry, no
569 2012-05-21 17:41:23 <luke-jr> sipa: is it possible to bind sockets such that they only get connections FROM a specific IP? <.<
570 2012-05-21 17:41:28 _W_ has quit (Excess Flood)
571 2012-05-21 17:41:32 <sipa> luke-jr: don't think so
572 2012-05-21 17:41:33 _W_ has joined
573 2012-05-21 17:42:27 <luke-jr> possible to detect if proxy server is Tor?
574 2012-05-21 17:42:27 <Diapolo> sipa: I ething related to -discover=0 but can't remember too ... and there are 3 compiler-warnings left in the IPv6 code
575 2012-05-21 17:42:37 <Diapolo> "I think something" was the first part ^^
576 2012-05-21 17:42:47 <sipa> luke-jr: not afaik
577 2012-05-21 17:43:02 <sipa> luke-jr: and judging based on whether it's port 9050 is sloppy
578 2012-05-21 17:43:07 <luke-jr> sipa: possible to specify -bind=lo ? :p
579 2012-05-21 17:43:18 <sipa> luke-jr: no
580 2012-05-21 17:43:22 <luke-jr> meh
581 2012-05-21 17:43:34 <sipa> maybe later
582 2012-05-21 17:44:07 <luke-jr> sounds like the best solution is to default to loopback binding if -proxy is specified, and treat -bind=1 as inaddr_any
583 2012-05-21 17:44:48 <sipa> i don't like listening by default in any case
584 2012-05-21 17:45:16 <sipa> well, any potential attempt at privacy
585 2012-05-21 17:46:15 <imsaguy2> While having the text in the status bar showing how many blocks remain until a client is 'caught up' is a good thing, its almost impossible to read.
586 2012-05-21 17:47:09 <imsaguy2> it needs a color shade behind it or something
587 2012-05-21 17:47:16 <luke-jr> sipa: I mean -proxy -externip
588 2012-05-21 17:47:32 <luke-jr> imsaguy2: that's an OS thing
589 2012-05-21 17:47:42 <Diapolo> imsaguy2: We use OS-default style for the progressbar, no chance to fix it for every possible theme setting.
590 2012-05-21 17:48:13 <imsaguy2> you can't put the text in a background color'd box?
591 2012-05-21 17:48:43 <imsaguy2> you might as well leave it out then, because it really does look like crap on a default windows install
592 2012-05-21 17:48:44 * sipa would prefer a fixed style; way too many complaints already
593 2012-05-21 17:48:48 <wumpus> Diapolo: agreed, it's simply the OS theme, if it's not right for your theme fix your theme
594 2012-05-21 17:48:57 <imsaguy2> thats stupid
595 2012-05-21 17:48:59 <imsaguy2> I use the default theme
596 2012-05-21 17:49:09 <sipa> wumpus: i don't think i have any theme to set, or i wouldn't know where
597 2012-05-21 17:49:10 <imsaguy2> you're telling me I need to restyle my whole OS because of a single program? lol
598 2012-05-21 17:49:10 <luke-jr> imsaguy2: there is no default theme
599 2012-05-21 17:49:18 <imsaguy2> luke-jr: wrong.
600 2012-05-21 17:49:23 <wumpus> no, that's not stupid... embedding styles is stupid
601 2012-05-21 17:49:46 <sipa> wumpus: for normal things, but this combination bites so many people with typical themes already
602 2012-05-21 17:49:48 <wumpus> other qt programs will have the same issue if they use a progress bar with text on it
603 2012-05-21 17:49:57 <imsaguy2> that doesn't make it right wumpus
604 2012-05-21 17:49:58 <imsaguy2> derp
605 2012-05-21 17:50:05 <wumpus> file an issue with qt
606 2012-05-21 17:50:20 <sipa> i agree with the basic notion that you should use default styles as much as possible
607 2012-05-21 17:50:26 <sipa> but it's just unreasonable here
608 2012-05-21 17:50:31 <luke-jr> wumpus: we're not using Qt's "text on progressbar" feature though, are we?
609 2012-05-21 17:50:41 <wumpus> luke-jr: afaik we are
610 2012-05-21 17:50:57 <luke-jr> wumpus: how? QProgressBar by default won't let you override the %â¦
611 2012-05-21 17:51:00 <sipa> exactly; i don't think there is any guarantee or intention to make test-on-progressbar look good, judging from what i've seen
612 2012-05-21 17:51:24 <wumpus> if you change the progressbar then people will complain it looks ugly on their os... people will always complain
613 2012-05-21 17:51:25 <imsaguy2> so then put the remaining number above/next to the progressbar itself
614 2012-05-21 17:51:34 <sipa> furthermore, i wouldn't have any clue where to change a style
615 2012-05-21 17:51:46 <Diapolo> I took many approached with that bar and I remember we had I style I think looked good, but asap we got a complaint it would not match the themes colors...
616 2012-05-21 17:51:53 p0s has joined
617 2012-05-21 17:51:54 <wumpus> yeah I remember that too
618 2012-05-21 17:51:56 <luke-jr> outline on the text a good compromise?
619 2012-05-21 17:51:59 <wumpus> we can't keep fipflopping
620 2012-05-21 17:52:10 <imsaguy2> just put the text in a box
621 2012-05-21 17:52:16 <sipa> just fix it... that way it's already readable everywhere
622 2012-05-21 17:52:30 <Diapolo> imsaguy2: if that would be poossible it's an option
623 2012-05-21 17:52:33 <Diapolo> -o
624 2012-05-21 17:52:59 <luke-jr> wumpus: for testing changes, how can I force the progressbar to be visible?
625 2012-05-21 17:53:07 <Diapolo> sipa: how could we cover all possibilities a Got uses perhaps a black style we use black text ... next complaint ;).
626 2012-05-21 17:53:16 <Diapolo> goth ^^
627 2012-05-21 17:53:17 <wumpus> luke-jr: start bitcoin in a new datadir
628 2012-05-21 17:53:21 <luke-jr> >_<
629 2012-05-21 17:53:28 <imsaguy2> Diapolo: my use case isn't an outliar
630 2012-05-21 17:53:36 <sipa> Diapolo: therefore, fix the style - don't use a default
631 2012-05-21 17:53:40 <imsaguy2> its the basic windows theme
632 2012-05-21 17:53:49 <Diapolo> What OS?
633 2012-05-21 17:53:56 <sipa> Diapolo: that way some may find it ugly, but at least it will be readable
634 2012-05-21 17:54:20 <wumpus> progressBar->setFormat(tr("~%n block(s) remaining", "", nRemainingBlocks)); that's as close to qt default code as it gets
635 2012-05-21 17:54:24 <sipa> i figured my case is an outlier, but apparently i'm not the only one
636 2012-05-21 17:54:51 <wumpus> if it's not visible on some default themes, I suggest to file an upstream issue with qt
637 2012-05-21 17:55:17 <imsaguy2> lol
638 2012-05-21 17:55:18 devrando1 has joined
639 2012-05-21 17:55:30 <sipa> how can qt do anything about that... it uses the OS's default progressbar, and puts a default text on top of it, i guess
640 2012-05-21 17:55:38 * sipa stops ranting
641 2012-05-21 17:55:38 <Diapolo> not lol if it would be easy to fix it would already be merged :D
642 2012-05-21 17:55:50 <wumpus> that's the same as asking what we can do about it... we simply use qt and trust it
643 2012-05-21 17:55:52 <luke-jr> we're not using progress bar text right now
644 2012-05-21 17:55:53 <imsaguy2> so then perhaps text on the progress bar itself isn't the righ thting
645 2012-05-21 17:55:56 <luke-jr> going to prototype a fix
646 2012-05-21 17:55:58 <imsaguy2> right*
647 2012-05-21 17:56:06 <sipa> i just don't understand why you give priority to "looking nice" while it's just unreadable to others
648 2012-05-21 17:56:08 <imsaguy2> even windows doesn't do that
649 2012-05-21 17:56:44 <wumpus> the percentage on the progress bar was also text
650 2012-05-21 17:57:00 <imsaguy2> back when the progress bars were full color, not blue boxes
651 2012-05-21 17:57:03 <gmaxwell> 10:19 < luke-jr> in fact, multiple wallets seems to make current coincontrol worthless
652 2012-05-21 17:57:07 <luke-jr> err
653 2012-05-21 17:57:19 <wumpus> we simply use "%n blocks left" instead of "xxx%" as setFormat now
654 2012-05-21 17:57:19 <gmaxwell> Not at allâ because even if you have multiple wallets, your wallts should have multiple addresses!
655 2012-05-21 17:57:49 <imsaguy2> when the progress bars were/are blue boxes, windows never puts text on it. Microsoft only put the text on the progress bars when they were a solid color that filled in.
656 2012-05-21 17:57:57 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the coincontrol patch also contains a collection of good unit tests for coinselection.
657 2012-05-21 17:58:01 <imsaguy2> There's a reason for that.
658 2012-05-21 17:58:07 <imsaguy2> text on the boxes isn't readible
659 2012-05-21 17:58:54 <imsaguy2> One could ask why you even need a progress bar
660 2012-05-21 17:59:05 <imsaguy2> I'm 2k blocks behind and the only thing missing is the last block
661 2012-05-21 17:59:05 <sipa> i prefer multiwallet as wallet management mechanism over coin control, but that doesn't make the latter useless
662 2012-05-21 17:59:08 <imsaguy2> a lot of good that does me
663 2012-05-21 17:59:18 <Diapolo> because if there is none people complain they don't see how fast block-sync is?
664 2012-05-21 17:59:20 <jgarzik> FWIW, speaking generally, there are very few things of consequence you will see my NAK on
665 2012-05-21 17:59:24 <jgarzik> bitching on IRC != NAK :)
666 2012-05-21 17:59:54 <jgarzik> i.e. you don't see a NAK on CBlockStore
667 2012-05-21 18:00:20 <imsaguy2> you can see how fast block sync is by the numbers counting down
668 2012-05-21 18:00:33 <imsaguy2> only right now, I can't see the numbers because the blocks that aren't changing make it impossible
669 2012-05-21 18:00:59 <luke-jr> wumpus: yeah, this looks like a Qt bug
670 2012-05-21 18:01:12 <wumpus> luke-jr: thanks for checking
671 2012-05-21 18:01:30 <imsaguy2> me as an end user complaining to QT will get referred to the original project
672 2012-05-21 18:01:46 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: choosing individual addresses is IMO not useful; individual coins might be, but the next useful level up is logical wallets
673 2012-05-21 18:02:01 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: coincontrol just tries to shove multiple logical wallets inside one real wallet
674 2012-05-21 18:02:10 <sipa> luke-jr, gmaxwell: update: https://gist.github.com/2763381
675 2012-05-21 18:02:29 <imsaguy2> but anyway, I'm done.
676 2012-05-21 18:03:34 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Well, it _is_ useful, both for some real cases, and as an educational tool. But it's not a replacement for muliple wallets, not even a partial oneâ and it's weak as an educational tool when you can't also select inputs.
677 2012-05-21 18:03:39 <wumpus> imsaguy2: you can still file a github issue with us, put some screenshots, we can file the qt issue with more details... I just don't agree with the solution of setting a fixed style on every os
678 2012-05-21 18:04:42 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: e.g. it allowed a lot of people who took the theieves coins to send exactly those coins on to your collection address... and let them do so without the forethought of establishing another wallet for that purpose.
679 2012-05-21 18:04:45 cdecker has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
680 2012-05-21 18:06:52 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: only if they made a new address
681 2012-05-21 18:07:24 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: indeed, there were some who didn't, and because it couldn't select inputsâ no joy.
682 2012-05-21 18:07:41 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
683 2012-05-21 18:11:45 O2made has quit (Quit: Leaving)
684 2012-05-21 18:20:13 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
685 2012-05-21 18:22:18 gavinandresen has joined
686 2012-05-21 18:23:40 <sipa> luke-jr: updated again
687 2012-05-21 18:26:27 philip_ has joined
688 2012-05-21 18:27:06 philip_ has quit (Client Quit)
689 2012-05-21 18:27:50 Diapolo has left ()
690 2012-05-21 18:30:01 <jgarzik> kyotocabinet's HashDB sure is nice
691 2012-05-21 18:31:24 pjorrit has joined
692 2012-05-21 18:33:02 <jgarzik> several interesting in-memory data structures, including one that claims to be better than std::map
693 2012-05-21 18:36:52 <wumpus> imsaguy2: can you put up a screenshot how it looks for you?
694 2012-05-21 18:37:43 peper has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
695 2012-05-21 18:38:17 <sipa> this is what it looks like for me: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/bitcoinqt.png
696 2012-05-21 18:38:54 erle- has joined
697 2012-05-21 18:39:48 Joric has quit ()
698 2012-05-21 18:40:40 <wumpus> sipa: hm looks like the base windows style http://doc-snapshot.qt-project.org/4.8/gallery-windows.html
699 2012-05-21 18:41:22 <sipa> wumpus: it's XMonad on Ubuntu 11.10
700 2012-05-21 18:41:58 <wumpus> most windows users get the windowsvista or windowsxp style
701 2012-05-21 18:42:13 <wumpus> on linux it's usually plastique or gtk
702 2012-05-21 18:42:45 <sipa> where would one configure that?
703 2012-05-21 18:43:20 <wumpus> try passing -style plastique (that should work, if it passes the arguments to qt as it's supposed to)
704 2012-05-21 18:43:56 <sipa> wow, you can do that? :D
705 2012-05-21 18:43:58 <gmaxwell> thats what it looks like for me too, though my colors are inverted.
706 2012-05-21 18:44:30 <gmaxwell> man, someday someone will shop sipa -geometry and it will blow his mind.
707 2012-05-21 18:44:41 <wumpus> typically one of "windows", "motif", "cde", "plastique", "windowsxp", or "macintosh" (they probably don't all work, depends on which ones are installed)
708 2012-05-21 18:44:47 <wumpus> hehe
709 2012-05-21 18:45:05 <gmaxwell> s/shop/show/
710 2012-05-21 18:45:22 <sipa> "Wow, you mean I can *change* which screen things show up on, using DISPLAY=...?" ;)
711 2012-05-21 18:45:46 <jgarzik> interesting pattern: "DB.transaction(self, proc, hard=False)" Perform entire transaction by a functor ("proc").
712 2012-05-21 18:46:32 <sipa> jgarzik: you mean, instead of starting a transaction in acceptblock, and ending it in any of 3 different places?
713 2012-05-21 18:46:44 <sipa> ;)
714 2012-05-21 18:46:50 <jgarzik> sipa: something like that ;)
715 2012-05-21 18:47:14 ThomasV has joined
716 2012-05-21 18:48:11 peper has joined
717 2012-05-21 18:48:17 <jgarzik> That pattern is from kyotocabinet's python interface (though it's C++ and other APIs support it also). bitcoin's equivalent would be something like: pdb->transaction(WriteBlockIndex) or pdb->transaction(AcceptBlock) etc. The database calls your app's functor callback, wrapped inside a transaction
718 2012-05-21 18:48:25 <jgarzik> if the functor returns an error, the transaction is aborted
719 2012-05-21 18:48:31 <jgarzik> otherwise its committed
720 2012-05-21 18:49:12 <jgarzik> would be a pain to apply to bitcoin, so it's largely of academic interest
721 2012-05-21 18:49:34 <jgarzik> kyotocabinet also uses the visitor pattern that is starting to appear
722 2012-05-21 18:49:53 <sipa> jgarzik: that is not *that* different from having a RAII CTxDB we already have, though it's used horribly
723 2012-05-21 18:50:17 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
724 2012-05-21 18:50:19 <jgarzik> true
725 2012-05-21 18:50:51 <jgarzik> though I really dislike RAII's side effects in bitcoin... buried DEEP inside a call chain, you are opening an entire db environment -and- a database
726 2012-05-21 18:51:47 <jgarzik> and we do strange things like instantiate a CTxDB _inside_ a CTxDB method
727 2012-05-21 18:51:58 b4epoche has joined
728 2012-05-21 18:51:59 <wumpus> hehe
729 2012-05-21 18:53:14 <sipa> any comments on #1357, by the way?
730 2012-05-21 18:56:59 <jgarzik> <shrug> seems like an unobjectionable minor cleanup
731 2012-05-21 19:00:53 <jgarzik> It is disappointing that bsddb.db shipped with python 2.7 in Fedora 16 is locked to db 4.8
732 2012-05-21 19:01:26 <wumpus> hmm I think boost::apply_visitor(ValidateAddressVisitor(ret), dest); is a bit confusing... you pass in a hash to return the return value in. Don't boost visitors have proper return values?
733 2012-05-21 19:02:42 <sipa> wumpus: what would you make it return?
734 2012-05-21 19:02:57 <sipa> oh, that one
735 2012-05-21 19:03:05 <wumpus> well it's a validation visitor, so it should return a value whether it is validated or not?
736 2012-05-21 19:03:18 <sipa> i guess it could return a JSON object
737 2012-05-21 19:03:29 <sipa> but there are common fields that need to be added to it as well
738 2012-05-21 19:04:20 <wumpus> sounds better
739 2012-05-21 19:04:54 <wumpus> and maybe rename it to describeaddressvisitor, seems more like what it does :)
740 2012-05-21 19:05:11 <sipa> if i could, i'd change the rpc name as well
741 2012-05-21 19:05:39 <wumpus> hm yeah
742 2012-05-21 19:06:00 <sipa> and i still need a way to return failure as well
743 2012-05-21 19:06:08 <sipa> though that's not really used now
744 2012-05-21 19:06:23 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
745 2012-05-21 19:07:01 <wumpus> maybe return a pair <bool, Object>
746 2012-05-21 19:07:13 <wumpus> or use an exception
747 2012-05-21 19:07:30 <sipa> bah :)
748 2012-05-21 19:07:44 <wumpus> first is better in this case, as it's not really exceptional
749 2012-05-21 19:08:45 <sipa> it shouldn't ever happen
750 2012-05-21 19:08:58 <wumpus> hehe, famous last words
751 2012-05-21 19:09:16 <sipa> CBitcoinAddress::IsValid() being true means no CNoDestination
752 2012-05-21 19:09:26 waldston has joined
753 2012-05-21 19:09:40 <sipa> unless there is a "merge" operation for JSON objects, i'd prefer to keep it this way
754 2012-05-21 19:09:47 <waldston> anyone knows a safe vps service for hosting bitcoind + website ?
755 2012-05-21 19:09:58 Nicksasa has joined
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757 2012-05-21 19:09:58 Nicksasa has joined
758 2012-05-21 19:10:24 <jgarzik> waldston: depends on the site value. if you want safe... control the hardware or face another hack like LInode or RackSpace
759 2012-05-21 19:10:43 <jgarzik> waldston: bitcoin hackers have already targeted large cloud providers' management systems
760 2012-05-21 19:10:52 <waldston> jgarzik: rackspace was hacked too ???
761 2012-05-21 19:10:54 <jgarzik> so I doubt a tiny VPS provider will be better secured
762 2012-05-21 19:11:38 <waldston> well, one could use my service like a wallet ... so I could not face a hacking event
763 2012-05-21 19:12:02 <waldston> * I can not
764 2012-05-21 19:12:15 <sipa> wumpus: the purpose of that visitor is to add whatever information there is about that destination to a given json object
765 2012-05-21 19:12:15 <luke-jr> waldston: Bitcoinica was Rackspace
766 2012-05-21 19:12:47 <waldston> luke-jr: but in the second hack, they said in their release that it was not rackspace's fault
767 2012-05-21 19:12:50 <sipa> wumpus: i could make it return that information in an object, but it would need to be merged with whatever we already have
768 2012-05-21 19:13:11 <waldston> not like in the first hack, with was entirely linode's fault
769 2012-05-21 19:13:15 <wumpus> sipa: I know, but that's not clear from that line
770 2012-05-21 19:13:17 <wumpus> sipa: hm let's see
771 2012-05-21 19:13:35 <luke-jr> waldston: you mean third?
772 2012-05-21 19:14:04 <waldston> luke-jr: wow, there was one before linode ? didn't knew
773 2012-05-21 19:14:36 <gavinandresen> waldston: if you are holding other people's bitcoins then my opinion is you insure accounts for losses up to X bitcoin. And when I say insure I really mean insure-- buy insurance, or if you can't buy insurance put aside X*nAccounts bitcoins to self-insure against hacking.
774 2012-05-21 19:14:38 <waldston> so, my service is ready for launch ... I just need a host
775 2012-05-21 19:15:16 <waldston> gavinandresen: I think no insurance company here in brazil will understand what a bitcoin is
776 2012-05-21 19:15:31 <gavinandresen> ok, so self-insure with an auditable off-line cold-storage wallet.
777 2012-05-21 19:16:17 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
778 2012-05-21 19:16:36 <waldston> gavinandresen: I'd take some months to put that working ... if I could just pay a trustable vps that would be much better
779 2012-05-21 19:16:44 <c_k> waldston: use Amazon EC2
780 2012-05-21 19:16:56 <ThomasV> use Linode!
781 2012-05-21 19:16:58 <sipa> waldston: will the vps be able to send money?
782 2012-05-21 19:17:01 <sipa> or only receive?
783 2012-05-21 19:17:16 <waldston> ThomasV: linode ?? gotta be kidding me
784 2012-05-21 19:17:22 <ThomasV> yeah :)
785 2012-05-21 19:17:24 <waldston> c_k: can one run bitcoind there ?
786 2012-05-21 19:17:30 <waldston> sipa: yeah
787 2012-05-21 19:17:42 <diki> c_k:Clark Kent I presume?
788 2012-05-21 19:17:52 <gavinandresen> waldston: how would sending 5,000 BTC to offline cold-storage and publishing a signed message proving you have the key to those funds take months to setup?
789 2012-05-21 19:18:07 <BlueMatt> waldston: there is no such thing as a trustable impenetrable vps
790 2012-05-21 19:18:09 <gavinandresen> (5,000 BTC being insuring 1,000 accounts for 5 BTC each, just an example)
791 2012-05-21 19:18:28 <wumpus> sipa: from what I see (json spirit is pretty hard to read), Object is simply a typedef of map, so should be possible to merge them simply with insert(obj.begin(), obj.end());
792 2012-05-21 19:18:33 <BlueMatt> any online machine is not credible as an insurance-wallet-holding machine
793 2012-05-21 19:19:05 c_k is now known as captain^k
794 2012-05-21 19:19:27 <ThomasV> captain kent!
795 2012-05-21 19:19:39 * luke-jr thinks there's a market for an Bitcoin insurance service, but that setting one up himself would be too much trouble
796 2012-05-21 19:20:01 <BlueMatt> Id think there is
797 2012-05-21 19:20:23 <luke-jr> whoever does it would need to at least hire a security expert to audit the systems being insured
798 2012-05-21 19:20:27 <ThomasV> hum, would 17-years old people have to pay more?
799 2012-05-21 19:20:30 <luke-jr> to check that they're reasonably secure
800 2012-05-21 19:20:40 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ofc
801 2012-05-21 19:20:49 <ThomasV> (like for car driving)
802 2012-05-21 19:20:55 <luke-jr> ThomasV: I see no reason for an age-bias, so long as you're insuring the service and not the users directly.
803 2012-05-21 19:21:04 <ThomasV> lol
804 2012-05-21 19:21:17 <luke-jr> (if you're insuring the users directly, then you need to consider the un-prosecutability of the legal minor running off with the money)
805 2012-05-21 19:21:48 <luke-jr> ThomasV: of course, someone could make a rule that anyone with access to the wallet needs to pass a security test
806 2012-05-21 19:21:53 waldston has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
807 2012-05-21 19:22:02 <ThomasV> and a honesty test :)
808 2012-05-21 19:22:05 captain^k is now known as parker
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810 2012-05-21 19:22:13 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I would expect such a rule
811 2012-05-21 19:22:16 <luke-jr> a 17 year old is no likely to be less honest than a 45 year old
812 2012-05-21 19:22:27 retro123 has joined
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814 2012-05-21 19:22:52 <diki> luke-jr:are you referring to zhoutong?
815 2012-05-21 19:22:58 <ThomasV> I have discovered the true nature of pirateat40's business: bitcoinica insurer
816 2012-05-21 19:23:02 <luke-jr> diki: I'm not referring to anyone specifically.
817 2012-05-21 19:23:15 <gmaxwell> people still have diki not ignored?
818 2012-05-21 19:23:36 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: me
819 2012-05-21 19:23:50 <gmaxwell> weird.
820 2012-05-21 19:23:57 <diki> gmaxwell:jelly? If so, go away please.
821 2012-05-21 19:24:14 <ThomasV> I just ignore the /ignore command
822 2012-05-21 19:25:33 <sipa> wumpus: ret.insert(detail.begin(), detail.end()); -> one screen long error message
823 2012-05-21 19:25:51 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I generally ignore diki the old fashoned way, but this time he asked a slightly reasonable question
824 2012-05-21 19:25:51 <sipa> i never managed to decode json-spirits's inner workings
825 2012-05-21 19:26:45 user__ has joined
826 2012-05-21 19:27:58 <user__> waldston: are you from brazil? what service you will launch
827 2012-05-21 19:28:17 <wladston> user__: it's a paid qa site
828 2012-05-21 19:28:47 <wladston> user__: yup, from brazil. but will launch in english.
829 2012-05-21 19:28:48 <user__> wladston: o que é qa?
830 2012-05-21 19:29:20 <sipa> wumpus: nevermind, fixed
831 2012-05-21 19:30:05 lyspooner has joined
832 2012-05-21 19:31:01 <sipa> wumpus: pushed
833 2012-05-21 19:38:40 user__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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846 2012-05-21 20:16:41 <wladston> thanks for all the help guys
847 2012-05-21 20:16:57 <gavinandresen> sipa jgarzik: valgrind and my mac are throwing fits with the commit that added #define BOOST_SPIRIT_THREADSAFE...
848 2012-05-21 20:17:13 <wladston> let's hope I can launch my service without hacking events
849 2012-05-21 20:17:20 <wladston> see ya!
850 2012-05-21 20:17:24 wladston has quit (Quit: Page closed)
851 2012-05-21 20:17:33 <gavinandresen> "let's hope" <-- that doesn't bode well....
852 2012-05-21 20:18:48 <sipa> hope... the quintessential of all human delusions
853 2012-05-21 20:19:27 * luke-jr thinks it'd make more sense to hope FOR hacking attempts *at launch*
854 2012-05-21 20:20:01 <luke-jr> cuz you're certainly going to see them at some point if you're successful⦠better to have problems exposed earlier
855 2012-05-21 20:21:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: running valgrind
856 2012-05-21 20:21:26 <gavinandresen> sipa: valgrind against test_bitcoin
857 2012-05-21 20:21:45 <gavinandresen> ... that's where I'm running into the issue. Invalid write of size for in _pthread_mutex_init
858 2012-05-21 20:21:49 <luke-jr> O.o
859 2012-05-21 20:22:04 <gavinandresen> ... called from boost::mutex::mutex
860 2012-05-21 20:22:09 superjames has joined
861 2012-05-21 20:22:11 <gavinandresen> (called from boost::spirit)
862 2012-05-21 20:26:29 PK has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
863 2012-05-21 20:26:39 PK_ has joined
864 2012-05-21 20:28:07 PK_ is now known as PK
865 2012-05-21 20:28:47 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
866 2012-05-21 20:30:22 Diapolo has joined
867 2012-05-21 20:31:11 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
868 2012-05-21 20:36:07 <gavinandresen> frickin fracking cross-platform differences... valgrind and the unit tests are perfectly happy in my ubuntu VM, fail miserably on my Mac.
869 2012-05-21 20:37:26 <luke-jr> :/
870 2012-05-21 20:37:34 <luke-jr> I got a ton of OpenSSL things on Gentoo
871 2012-05-21 20:37:38 <luke-jr> but not pthread-related
872 2012-05-21 20:37:53 * luke-jr wonders if his cross-OSX test_bitcoin would have the problem
873 2012-05-21 20:38:52 tower has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
874 2012-05-21 20:39:17 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: btw, what do Mac users do for bitcoind?
875 2012-05-21 20:39:34 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: compile it themselves if they want it.
876 2012-05-21 20:39:37 <luke-jr> i c
877 2012-05-21 20:40:06 tower has joined
878 2012-05-21 20:40:59 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
879 2012-05-21 20:43:49 Nicksasa has joined
880 2012-05-21 20:50:15 <Diapolo> gavinandresen: What about the added startuptime thing in the RPC call getinfo? Could luke and I convince you?
881 2012-05-21 20:50:26 <gavinandresen> no'
882 2012-05-21 20:51:18 <gavinandresen> ... and if you start a long discussion on how it is a great little feature that I will never regret adding I'll just put you on ignore
883 2012-05-21 20:51:46 <sipa> Diapolo: i use -logtimestamps if i need to know the startuptime (and that is only for benchmarks, hardly worth an extra info field)
884 2012-05-21 20:52:37 <gavinandresen> first line of debug.log includes the startup time, even without -logtimestamps, I believe
885 2012-05-21 20:52:54 <sipa> orly?
886 2012-05-21 20:53:08 <gavinandresen> I think so, I get Bitcoin version v0.6.2.2-beta (2012-05-11 10:09:45 -0400)
887 2012-05-21 20:53:42 <Diapolo> should be the compile time ...
888 2012-05-21 20:53:59 <sipa> that's time of the last commit
889 2012-05-21 20:54:35 <luke-jr> maybe it should. sounds like a reasonable compromise.
890 2012-05-21 20:55:26 <gavinandresen> ah, right, I'm constantly compiling then running so it always looked like startup time to me....
891 2012-05-21 20:55:39 <gmaxwell> Anyone looked into these big orphan floods anymore?
892 2012-05-21 20:56:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm. no
893 2012-05-21 20:56:12 <gmaxwell> it's really hard to figure out anything about them... and gettransacion doesn't return anything on stored orphans. :-/
894 2012-05-21 20:56:34 <sipa> shouldn't be hard to add
895 2012-05-21 20:56:45 [Tycho] has joined
896 2012-05-21 20:56:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: see the crazy pngs I posted early this morning... there are enormous chains of orphanes being announced for the last day or so.
897 2012-05-21 20:57:20 <gmaxwell> 01:54 < gmaxwell> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/orphans_straight.png (big image warning)
898 2012-05-21 20:57:29 <[Tycho]> OMG, looks like my FPGA-farm is not the biggest anymore...
899 2012-05-21 20:58:55 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: text labels are way too small
900 2012-05-21 20:59:11 <graingert_ecs> gmaxwell: I do love straight orphans
901 2012-05-21 20:59:27 <[Tycho]> http://bitfury.org - was this thing announced already ?
902 2012-05-21 20:59:59 BurtyBB has joined
903 2012-05-21 21:00:27 <bonks> [Tycho]: what's the biggest now?
904 2012-05-21 21:00:36 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
905 2012-05-21 21:00:56 <gmaxwell> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/orphans_flat.png (very big image warning, likely to OOM your browser)
906 2012-05-21 21:01:17 BurtyB2 has joined
907 2012-05-21 21:01:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: works fine in chromium
908 2012-05-21 21:01:39 <gavinandresen> hmmm. we're being awfully nice handling orphan transactions as gently as we do, I wonder if it would be better to just drop orphans
909 2012-05-21 21:02:00 <gmaxwell> 300 Mh/s on S6-lx150? wild.
910 2012-05-21 21:02:01 mologie has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
911 2012-05-21 21:02:47 <sipa> the S6LX150 on my ztex boards don't want to go above 212MHz
912 2012-05-21 21:03:05 <sipa> ah, they have shorter paths it seems
913 2012-05-21 21:03:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure, because the ztex design fails timing above that.
914 2012-05-21 21:03:46 <gmaxwell> looks like their hand layout is 90degs off from eldentyrell's.
915 2012-05-21 21:04:00 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell sipa : seriously, what if we refused to store/relay orphan transactions, and instead relied on the sending node to re-send them when their parents are in the chain (or otherwise made it to us) ?
916 2012-05-21 21:04:35 <gavinandresen> It would make the code a fair bit simpler.
917 2012-05-21 21:04:47 BurtyBB has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
918 2012-05-21 21:05:06 davout has joined
919 2012-05-21 21:05:08 <sipa> thinking
920 2012-05-21 21:05:25 mologie has joined
921 2012-05-21 21:06:16 davout_ has joined
922 2012-05-21 21:06:27 <sipa> hmm, it seems there is no "receive orphan -> request parents" code for txn?
923 2012-05-21 21:06:35 <gmaxwell> some of the random forwarding means that you may just end up hearing transactions out of order.
924 2012-05-21 21:07:39 <sipa> orphans are not announced, so not forwarded
925 2012-05-21 21:07:57 <sipa> so you should only hear about a transaction when the sender also has the parents
926 2012-05-21 21:08:07 davout__ has joined
927 2012-05-21 21:08:18 <jgarzik> does a reorg or any other chain event ever create orphans?
928 2012-05-21 21:08:29 <jgarzik> I wouldn't want a reorg to create orphans... then we drop the orphans
929 2012-05-21 21:08:39 <jgarzik> i.e. a tx goes from confirmed to unconfirmed to dropped?
930 2012-05-21 21:08:56 <sipa> jgarzik: reorging would always add the tx's parents to the pool as well
931 2012-05-21 21:09:02 <sipa> as they were connected to the chain
932 2012-05-21 21:09:15 <sipa> except if the parents would conflict with something in the new chain
933 2012-05-21 21:09:18 <luke-jr> sipa: what if there are more txns being pulled out in the reorg than the client remembers, and the parents drop out first?
934 2012-05-21 21:09:20 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
935 2012-05-21 21:09:38 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
936 2012-05-21 21:09:58 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
937 2012-05-21 21:10:09 <sipa> i think they'll just be dropped; not go to orphanage
938 2012-05-21 21:10:47 davout_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
939 2012-05-21 21:13:20 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'd like to see some statistics on the reasons for orphans currently (chain not caught up, parent missing, parent already in block that hasn't been seen yet, ...)
940 2012-05-21 21:13:44 <sipa> chain not caught up... i don't think we should be storing orpans at all during initial block download
941 2012-05-21 21:14:43 <gavinandresen> agreed on not storing them during initial block download.
942 2012-05-21 21:14:51 retro123 has joined
943 2012-05-21 21:15:21 retro123 has left ()
944 2012-05-21 21:15:29 <sipa> TD pointed out that there are cases where transactions can get into the memory pool, even though they conflict with things already in the chain
945 2012-05-21 21:15:33 BurtyB2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
946 2012-05-21 21:15:48 <sipa> but that's the memory pool, not the orphan txs
947 2012-05-21 21:15:48 _Fireball has quit (Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
948 2012-05-21 21:16:20 davout__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
949 2012-05-21 21:16:59 BurtyB has joined
950 2012-05-21 21:16:59 <gavinandresen> yup. I'm looking at ResendWalletTransactions, and as long as the code does the right thing when re-orgs happen then it seems to me dropping orphans wouldn't hurt anything much,
951 2012-05-21 21:17:29 <sipa> my worry is transactions not being propagated in the correct order
952 2012-05-21 21:17:48 <sipa> that could make propagation a lot harder
953 2012-05-21 21:18:28 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1370 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1370>
954 2012-05-21 21:18:29 <sipa> but it surprises me that the code doesn't ask for parent txs when it receives an orphan
955 2012-05-21 21:18:34 <gavinandresen> I don't see how that happens, assuming messages aren't dropped (and they typically aren't)
956 2012-05-21 21:18:45 <sipa> as the sender is guaranteed to have the parents
957 2012-05-21 21:18:50 Matt_von_Mises has joined
958 2012-05-21 21:19:53 * luke-jr notes that just because NodeA has txnA, does not mean NodeA will let you get txnA from it
959 2012-05-21 21:20:33 <sipa> how do you mean?
960 2012-05-21 21:20:55 <luke-jr> I mean it keeps a small buffer of txns it is "currently sending" and once it falls out of that buffer, it won't serve the data for it
961 2012-05-21 21:21:05 <gavinandresen> that's anti-social
962 2012-05-21 21:21:35 <luke-jr> I found it rather annoying when I was trying to get that BIP16-invalid txn that was messing up pre-BIP16 miners back in April
963 2012-05-21 21:21:36 <gavinandresen> ... and smells a lot like a node that might be trying to DoS you by sending you lots of orphan txns
964 2012-05-21 21:21:51 <sipa> of course it could refuse to send transactions, but i'm wondering why satoshi didn't implement such an orhpan-parant-request, given that he assumed that all nodes were running his code
965 2012-05-21 21:22:00 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I'm talking about current client behaviour
966 2012-05-21 21:22:15 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
967 2012-05-21 21:22:39 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: oh, requesting an invalid transaction, that's not relevant to this discussion
968 2012-05-21 21:22:54 <luke-jr> no, the clients I was trying to get it from considered it valid
969 2012-05-21 21:22:55 <sipa> luke-jr is right i think
970 2012-05-21 21:23:33 <sipa> if you request a tx from a node, they serve it from mapRelay, not from the block database
971 2012-05-21 21:23:37 <luke-jr> mapRelay
972 2012-05-21 21:23:43 <luke-jr> yep
973 2012-05-21 21:23:44 <gavinandresen> ok, I sit corrected
974 2012-05-21 21:23:48 <sipa> i never noticed that
975 2012-05-21 21:24:06 <gavinandresen> makes sense, I suppose, otherwise you could disk-seek-DoS a node by constantly requesting random past txns
976 2012-05-21 21:24:34 <luke-jr> looks like 15 minutes
977 2012-05-21 21:24:46 <luke-jr> (net.h)
978 2012-05-21 21:25:00 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: aren't unconfirmed txns saved in memory too?
979 2012-05-21 21:25:36 <luke-jr> maybe if it's not in mapRelay, we can fallback to mapTransactions (or whatever jgarzik replaced that with)
980 2012-05-21 21:25:47 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
981 2012-05-21 21:25:51 <luke-jr> unless someone wants to verify we can just remove mapRelay entirely? :p
982 2012-05-21 21:26:02 <sipa> i wouldn't remove mapRelay
983 2012-05-21 21:26:36 darkee has joined
984 2012-05-21 21:28:18 <sipa> gavinandresen: i *think* removing orphans would not be a problem, but this has to be thought through very well...
985 2012-05-21 21:29:07 <gavinandresen> sipa: ACK, I mostly ask because if what gmaxwell is seeing is a DoS attack a quick fix for anybody attacked might be "don't store orphan transactions"
986 2012-05-21 21:29:23 <luke-jr> sipa: how is mapRelay better than mapTransactions?
987 2012-05-21 21:29:27 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643])
988 2012-05-21 21:29:31 eoss has joined
989 2012-05-21 21:29:31 eoss has quit (Changing host)
990 2012-05-21 21:29:31 eoss has joined
991 2012-05-21 21:29:39 <sipa> luke-jr: i'm not suggesting to drop either
992 2012-05-21 21:30:01 <luke-jr> sipa: I'm suggesting mapTransactions does everything mapRelay does, but without expiration
993 2012-05-21 21:30:35 <sipa> that sounds reasonable as well, actually, at first sight
994 2012-05-21 21:31:38 <RedEmerald> is there an ETA on getting tor hidden services working fully? i can definitely help with testing
995 2012-05-21 21:31:52 <luke-jr> RedEmerald: does the latest next-test not work?
996 2012-05-21 21:32:41 <sipa> RedEmerald: 0.7.0 :)
997 2012-05-21 21:33:01 <RedEmerald> luke-jr, didn't realize it was in next-test. i'll play with it tonight then
998 2012-05-21 21:33:46 <sipa> i plan to set up a permanent bitcoin-torhs soon
999 2012-05-21 21:34:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: any comment on https://gist.github.com/2763381 btw?
1000 2012-05-21 21:34:29 <sipa> (suggested semantics and interaction between network parameters)
1001 2012-05-21 21:35:18 PK has quit ()
1002 2012-05-21 21:36:18 <sipa> luke-jr: SPV nodes may ask for transactions maybe, even though they're already in a block?
1003 2012-05-21 21:36:44 <RedEmerald> sipa: torhs?
1004 2012-05-21 21:36:50 <sipa> RedEmerald: tor hidden service
1005 2012-05-21 21:36:53 <RedEmerald> oh duh
1006 2012-05-21 21:37:34 <luke-jr> sipa: if they're already in a block, chances are they're over 15 mins old?
1007 2012-05-21 21:37:49 <sipa> luke-jr: a very recent block :)
1008 2012-05-21 21:38:18 <RedEmerald> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fallback_Nodes#Tor_nodes got these already, will be nice when its all properly handled though
1009 2012-05-21 21:38:50 TD has joined
1010 2012-05-21 21:39:03 <sipa> wow, didn't know there was such a list already
1011 2012-05-21 21:39:29 diki has quit ()
1012 2012-05-21 21:40:11 <RedEmerald> you have to add "mapaddress" to your torrc, so its a little bit of setup
1013 2012-05-21 21:40:38 <sipa> i know
1014 2012-05-21 21:41:09 <sipa> HiddenServiceDir / HiddenServicePort
1015 2012-05-21 21:42:59 * sipa wonders if you can put a CNAME to an .onion in DNS, and ask tor to connect to it :D
1016 2012-05-21 21:43:23 <RedEmerald> namecoin
1017 2012-05-21 21:43:33 <sipa> right
1018 2012-05-21 21:43:35 Diapolo has left ()
1019 2012-05-21 21:43:54 <gavinandresen> sipa: no comment, network/tor configuration isn't something I know or care much about
1020 2012-05-21 21:44:27 <sipa> gavinandresen: but maybe you have comments on least-surprise behaviour or the complexity of command-line parameter interactions
1021 2012-05-21 21:46:40 <gavinandresen> oh, you're changing -listen default again based on other params.... yeah, I don't like that
1022 2012-05-21 21:46:52 <Matt_von_Mises> What is OP_NOP for?
1023 2012-05-21 21:47:00 <gavinandresen> nothing
1024 2012-05-21 21:47:23 <Matt_von_Mises> Well it does nothing. But what would you want that?
1025 2012-05-21 21:48:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'd rather one or more meta-flags that SoftSetArg() stuff...
1026 2012-05-21 21:48:50 <gavinandresen> Or is that what -proxy and -onion are meant to be?
1027 2012-05-21 21:49:07 <gavinandresen> Matt_von_Mises: doing nothing is sometimes the right thing to do.
1028 2012-05-21 21:49:15 <gavinandresen> actually, it is often the right thing to do....
1029 2012-05-21 21:49:37 <sipa> gavinandresen: currently, -proxy does some thing, but changes the defaults for 5 other parameters ONLY when it is port 9050
1030 2012-05-21 21:50:17 t7 has joined
1031 2012-05-21 21:50:29 <sipa> this should be an improvement, and i think the defaults are reasonable (you don't need softset, by the way, just pass a default when doing Get[Bool]Arg)
1032 2012-05-21 21:51:01 <sipa> -listen was disabled earlier when you used tor mode, or used -connect already
1033 2012-05-21 21:51:20 <gavinandresen> jgarzik protested that -connect= would disable -listen, if I recall correctly
1034 2012-05-21 21:51:47 <sipa> i don't mind changing that, i just thought it was the case already
1035 2012-05-21 21:53:34 <sipa> there are several places in the code that prevent trying to obtain the current address if -connect is used
1036 2012-05-21 21:53:43 <sipa> which seems silly if you still want to be connectable
1037 2012-05-21 21:54:13 <Matt_von_Mises> gavinandresen: Is a NOP needed for empty scripts? Can't a script have zero operations?
1038 2012-05-21 21:54:16 <gavinandresen> I like simplifying. And I like nice, orthogonal command-line options
1039 2012-05-21 21:54:28 <luke-jr> afaik, the purpose of -connect is to talk to only one specific node O.o
1040 2012-05-21 21:54:33 <sipa> luke-jr: indeed
1041 2012-05-21 21:55:13 <sipa> at least, that is what i expect from it
1042 2012-05-21 21:55:17 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: BIP 12 and 17 are examples of how NOPs are useful
1043 2012-05-21 21:55:33 <Matt_von_Mises> THanks luke-jr I will look
1044 2012-05-21 21:55:46 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: a script is true if it ends with a non-zero value on the stack
1045 2012-05-21 21:56:05 <sipa> so empty or OP_NOP makes no difference for that
1046 2012-05-21 21:56:14 <gavinandresen> -connect works to multiple nodes: BOOST_FOREACH(string strAddr, mapMultiArgs["-connect"])
1047 2012-05-21 21:56:34 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: yes, but the difference between -addnode and -connect is that -connect inhibits the usual peer finding
1048 2012-05-21 21:57:00 <gavinandresen> misfeature, in my opinion. Should be -addnode then a separate arg for "don't look for other peers"
1049 2012-05-21 21:57:38 <luke-jr> perhaps.
1050 2012-05-21 21:57:39 <gavinandresen> But there are WAY WAY WAY higher things on the list to worry about!
1051 2012-05-21 21:57:55 <gavinandresen> (so why are we talking about trivial features?)
1052 2012-05-21 21:58:22 <Matt_von_Mises> luke-jr: BIP12 and 17 don't use OP_NOP.
1053 2012-05-21 21:58:30 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: yes, they do.
1054 2012-05-21 21:58:35 <Matt_von_Mises> At least what it says on the wiki
1055 2012-05-21 21:58:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: because i want to have onion support merged, but i don't like the mess of command-line options now, and onion support would make it worse
1056 2012-05-21 21:58:56 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: you're reading the actual BIPs?
1057 2012-05-21 21:59:10 <Matt_von_Mises> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0017 I search for OP_NOP and all it says is "proceed as if an OP_NOP" not, "and then use OP_NOP"
1058 2012-05-21 21:59:45 <luke-jr> â¦
1059 2012-05-21 22:00:03 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: both BIP 12 and BIP 17 redefine OP_NOP1
1060 2012-05-21 22:00:07 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: put simply, the purpose of OP_NOP is so it can be redefined in the future without breaking compatibility
1061 2012-05-21 22:00:21 <Matt_von_Mises> OP_NOP isn't the same as OP_NOP1, though is it?
1062 2012-05-21 22:00:24 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: (also, do note both 12 and 17 were withdrawn)
1063 2012-05-21 22:00:28 <luke-jr> Matt_von_Mises: functionally, they are the same
1064 2012-05-21 22:00:34 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: same semantics
1065 2012-05-21 22:02:11 <sipa> if (fUseProxy || mapArgs.count("-connect") || fNoListen)
1066 2012-05-21 22:02:11 <sipa> {
1067 2012-05-21 22:02:11 <sipa> // Proxies can't take incoming connections
1068 2012-05-21 22:02:11 <sipa> addrLocalHost.ip = CAddress("0.0.0.0").ip;
1069 2012-05-21 22:02:17 <sipa> (that's from 0.5.3)
1070 2012-05-21 22:02:28 <Matt_von_Mises> So they are just reserved including OP_NOP?
1071 2012-05-21 22:03:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: i don't get why -connect would prevent exposing your own address, if it still listens
1072 2012-05-21 22:03:56 <sipa> so it does seem to have some magic behaviour associated with it
1073 2012-05-21 22:04:03 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1074 2012-05-21 22:05:03 Maccer has quit (Excess Flood)
1075 2012-05-21 22:05:22 wasabi1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1076 2012-05-21 22:07:29 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1077 2012-05-21 22:09:07 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened issue 1371 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1371>
1078 2012-05-21 22:09:56 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1079 2012-05-21 22:11:26 xenland has joined
1080 2012-05-21 22:11:33 <gavinandresen> sipa: if you need to cleanup the networking options, then I think we should make them the way they aught to be, renaming anything that would be incompatible and checking/warning/suggesting if the user's got old, obsolete options in their bitcoin.conf.
1081 2012-05-21 22:11:41 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1082 2012-05-21 22:11:59 <gavinandresen> e.g. "-connect is obsolete, please use -addnode with the -foobar option instead"
1083 2012-05-21 22:12:38 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1084 2012-05-21 22:12:44 <xenland> So in the beaglebone I typed in init 1 and it said going into safe mode or boot mode or somthing and now when I connect through the usb with linux ubuntu 11.10 terminal/shell it just gives me a blank screen .. what shall i do to get my angstrom login screen back?
1085 2012-05-21 22:12:55 <xenland> whoops
1086 2012-05-21 22:12:57 <xenland> wrong chat
1087 2012-05-21 22:13:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats two of us suggesting renaming around old stupid behavior.
1088 2012-05-21 22:13:06 Raziel_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1089 2012-05-21 22:13:34 <sipa> i didn't consider -addnode/-connect stupid actually
1090 2012-05-21 22:14:07 <luke-jr> I considered -connect's name stupid, at first.
1091 2012-05-21 22:14:16 <luke-jr> I used to think it was -addnode
1092 2012-05-21 22:14:38 <luke-jr> xenland: try init 4 or 5
1093 2012-05-21 22:14:58 <sipa> and i'm all for renaming if semantics change in a way that old users would want to reconsider
1094 2012-05-21 22:15:32 <gmaxwell> I don't know what to name the rest of connect's implied behavior though.
1095 2012-05-21 22:15:33 <gavinandresen> maybe -connect is just fine the way it is, as I said I don't really care... but I don't like things like -upnp=1 is ignored if -listen=0 (but would be fine if doing that generated a warning in debug.log)
1096 2012-05-21 22:15:35 <luke-jr> how about renaming it, but leaving -connect=⦠working undocumented for N versions?
1097 2012-05-21 22:15:50 <luke-jr> -p2p=0/1 ?
1098 2012-05-21 22:16:25 <luke-jr> so -p2p=0 to turn off p2p
1099 2012-05-21 22:16:32 <luke-jr> and only connect when explicitly told to
1100 2012-05-21 22:16:45 <sipa> -upnp is never ignored; but if you're not accepting any connections, there is just no point in trying to open up ports, or finding out what your address is
1101 2012-05-21 22:16:55 <gmaxwell> I think connect and addnode are very easily confused. And the fact that I've seen users with configs hat look like connect=foo connect=bar addnode=baz supports this.
1102 2012-05-21 22:16:59 <sipa> and nobody who uses -bind would expect listening to be disabled
1103 2012-05-21 22:17:25 <gmaxwell> sipa: unless they think it's going to change the binding for the rpcport?
1104 2012-05-21 22:17:53 <sipa> well, that should be clearly documented of course
1105 2012-05-21 22:18:04 <luke-jr> so how about an undocumented -connect=⦠that implies -p2p=0 -listen=0 -addnode=â¦
1106 2012-05-21 22:18:29 <sipa> there's always a risk confusing users who don't realize the difference between P2P and RPC traffic, but there's little to do about that
1107 2012-05-21 22:18:34 <sipa> luke-jr: what does -p2p do?
1108 2012-05-21 22:18:44 <luke-jr> sipa: turns off p2p? :p
1109 2012-05-21 22:18:51 <luke-jr> ie, looking for and connecting to peers
1110 2012-05-21 22:18:53 <sipa> so, it turns networking off?
1111 2012-05-21 22:18:54 <sipa> ah
1112 2012-05-21 22:19:24 <gmaxwell> well what -connect does, logically, is it implied nolisten and nooutboundp2p while also addnoding
1113 2012-05-21 22:19:47 <sipa> ok, -onlynode= ?
1114 2012-05-21 22:20:04 <sipa> gmaxwell: apparently it never implied nolisten
1115 2012-05-21 22:20:24 <sipa> but it *did* prevent exposing your own public ip
1116 2012-05-21 22:21:18 <gmaxwell> Hm. Why to I remember non-local p2pool users complaining about it breaking them?
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1121 2012-05-21 22:24:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: i can't find any evidence for that in 0.6.0, 0.5.3 or 0.4.0
1122 2012-05-21 22:24:52 wasabi1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1123 2012-05-21 22:24:59 <sipa> but i don't get it - there are multiple places in the code where -connect is explicitly checked, to prevent exposing our public address
1124 2012-05-21 22:25:10 <sipa> but it never prevents listening
1125 2012-05-21 22:26:07 <gmaxwell> does it change the binding to be 127.0.0.1?
1126 2012-05-21 22:26:13 <sipa> no
1127 2012-05-21 22:26:19 <sipa> that wasn't ever done
1128 2012-05-21 22:26:54 <gmaxwell> Well darn. Did you think it did because of me? Or was there some common source for this mistaken belief?
1129 2012-05-21 22:27:47 diki has joined
1130 2012-05-21 22:28:22 * sipa thinks all this is proof that the networking options need a revamp, if even we doubt their behaviour...
1131 2012-05-21 22:30:05 <diki> sipa:there are smart people out there that would do it if it was neccessary
1132 2012-05-21 22:30:22 <sipa> diki: would do what?
1133 2012-05-21 22:31:37 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1134 2012-05-21 22:33:54 Karmaon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1139 2012-05-21 22:40:37 <sipa> the only existing commands that are changed by my proposal are: -proxy always turns of listening (instead of only if it's port 9050), -connect turns of listening (though i'm willing to change that), -bind always enabled listening (duh...), no listening disables upnp by default (there is absolutely no point in using it otherwise)
1140 2012-05-21 22:41:19 <sipa> are these changes so invasive that we should rename the options?
1141 2012-05-21 22:42:38 <sipa> (i'm always talking about defaults, in the above sentence, never changing explicitly specified options)
1142 2012-05-21 22:45:16 paul0 has joined
1143 2012-05-21 22:47:16 <jgarzik> drat, gavin is gone
1144 2012-05-21 22:47:19 <jgarzik> re orphans
1145 2012-05-21 22:47:29 <jgarzik> we already have MAX_ORPHAN_TRANSACTIONS limit
1146 2012-05-21 22:47:51 <luke-jr> sipa: FWIW, Eligius's work-node has nolisten=1 in the config, which suggests connect=⦠alone didn't take care of it, maybe
1147 2012-05-21 22:47:55 <jgarzik> orphan tx's are randomly evicted, as new orphans appear
1148 2012-05-21 22:48:17 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/uyHE2Mku <-- Deepbit not only spams, but processes the least for the network
1149 2012-05-21 22:49:45 <sipa> jgarzik: want to have a look at https://gist.github.com/2763381 ?
1150 2012-05-21 22:49:47 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: ^
1151 2012-05-21 22:50:47 <diki> jgarzik:le orphans
1152 2012-05-21 22:50:55 <diki> or better yet "le orfans"
1153 2012-05-21 22:52:23 jgarzik has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1154 2012-05-21 22:53:29 tower has quit (Quit: | ReactOS - The FOSS alternative to MS Windows! | http://www.reactos.org/ | join #ReactOS |)
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1163 2012-05-21 23:01:19 <sipa> jgarzik: want to have a look at https://gist.github.com/2763381 ?
1164 2012-05-21 23:01:50 <jgarzik> sipa: can -bind be used multiple times?
1165 2012-05-21 23:02:14 <sipa> yes
1166 2012-05-21 23:02:21 <sipa> externalip too
1167 2012-05-21 23:04:08 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1168 2012-05-21 23:06:28 <luke-jr> [23:03:15] <ljrbot> Txn 53597ae26a65fd151900852f49828d6c75f850022e82c773b44cb556beb1a1da: 198bLhyREhk2u94F5TnD8E8edbAEqEhPjE 0.00949999 BTC, 1HdAGo2KdfS9PL2BJbe7fxqCZrafhp4t46 0.00000001 BTC
1169 2012-05-21 23:06:30 <luke-jr> [23:03:17] <ljrbot> Txn 6144933ff8d0d836052c0b818cdb2b2ca91a9524e3e2413497971b8d48bf4d7d: 12K5SyY2Z3DNsqFtTCnyGC3J7jYTCjM54m 0.00949999 BTC, 1MeACfxWxEnRoYAgLg7Ex1rUtbJuRUVUiC 0.00000001 BTC
1170 2012-05-21 23:06:31 <luke-jr> satoshispam
1171 2012-05-21 23:06:58 b4epoche has joined
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1173 2012-05-21 23:08:07 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: they are talking about 300 MH/s at 1.5v - serious overvolting, may be.
1174 2012-05-21 23:09:02 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: â¦
1175 2012-05-21 23:09:13 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: why does Deepbit process the least transactions out of all the big pools?
1176 2012-05-21 23:10:02 da2ce7 has joined
1177 2012-05-21 23:10:29 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: may be because they are considered "spam"
1178 2012-05-21 23:10:44 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I don't mean just quantity, I mean quality too
1179 2012-05-21 23:10:54 <[Tycho]> Quality ?
1180 2012-05-21 23:11:03 <luke-jr> Deepbit only processed 13kBTC of transactions in the last 10 blocks
1181 2012-05-21 23:11:13 copumpkin has joined
1182 2012-05-21 23:11:38 <[Tycho]> Can you give me an example of TXes, refused by Deepbit ? Then I can tell you why they weren't accepted.
1183 2012-05-21 23:11:46 <luke-jr> no, I don't know them
1184 2012-05-21 23:11:55 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1185 2012-05-21 23:11:58 <luke-jr> I just know on average Deepbit processes far less than other pools
1186 2012-05-21 23:12:04 devrando1 has quit (Quit: leaving)
1187 2012-05-21 23:12:13 <[Tycho]> Mostly they are refused because of fees too low. Some - by size.
1188 2012-05-21 23:12:47 dvide has joined
1189 2012-05-21 23:12:57 <[Tycho]> Do you know that my minimal fee is not 0.00005, but 0.01 for non-free TXes ?
1190 2012-05-21 23:14:52 toffoo has quit ()
1191 2012-05-21 23:15:08 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: jgarzik opened pull request 1372 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1372>
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1194 2012-05-21 23:23:48 <luke-jr> OK, confirmed deterministic bdb, openssl, zlib, and miniupnpc for OSX :D
1195 2012-05-21 23:24:08 <luke-jr> next up: boost :x
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1197 2012-05-21 23:30:54 <sipa> how heavily do you need to patch gcc, luke-jr?
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1209 2012-05-21 23:51:02 <luke-jr> sipa: not too heavy, starting from Apple GCC
1210 2012-05-21 23:51:14 <luke-jr> sipa: GCC isn't deterministic though
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1214 2012-05-21 23:56:18 <luke-jr> sipa: the one patch I had to write myself was supplying the mode to an open() call that was missing it
1215 2012-05-21 23:56:28 <luke-jr> someone should review that to make sure I put the right value :P
1216 2012-05-21 23:56:58 <luke-jr> not that it should matter, since nothing from the cross-compiler should make it into the final binaries itself
1217 2012-05-21 23:57:07 <luke-jr> (i think it was in some stdlib)