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  8 2012-06-09 00:21:16 <bennysx> hi
  9 2012-06-09 00:21:26 <bennysx> i need help for my bussiness
 10 2012-06-09 00:21:40 <bennysx> i want to sell my ebaooks via bitcoin
 11 2012-06-09 00:21:46 <bennysx> ebooks*
 12 2012-06-09 00:22:16 <bennysx> but im just too lazy to keep creating addresses for each costumer
 13 2012-06-09 00:22:32 <bennysx> is there a easier way to do this?
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 15 2012-06-09 00:23:19 faraday_ is now known as Faraday
 16 2012-06-09 00:23:39 <MagicalTux> bennysx: you can use some of the existing checkout solutions
 17 2012-06-09 00:24:41 <bennysx> im selling my ebook at a forum, people PM me asking for the address,
 18 2012-06-09 00:24:52 <bennysx> i know there is processing solutions
 19 2012-06-09 00:25:04 <luke-jr> bennysx: http://coindl.com
 20 2012-06-09 00:25:48 <bennysx> i know but i got more traffic on that forum that im selling
 21 2012-06-09 00:25:57 <luke-jr> so link to coindl
 22 2012-06-09 00:26:02 Faraday is now known as faraday_
 23 2012-06-09 00:33:48 <weex> bennysx: i run coindl, let me know if you need any help
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 30 2012-06-09 00:52:51 <amtran> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86400.0
 31 2012-06-09 00:59:10 <MagicalTux> amtran: what's your goal ?
 32 2012-06-09 00:59:46 <MagicalTux> I see that could work with HOTP, but not TOTP nor yubikey
 33 2012-06-09 00:59:57 <amtran> iit is hotp
 34 2012-06-09 01:00:02 <amtran> yubikey has hotp
 35 2012-06-09 01:00:23 <MagicalTux> problem is if by accident you use your OTP generator and go over the bound of pre-generated values
 36 2012-06-09 01:00:45 <MagicalTux> plus, I'm not sure about the concatenate part
 37 2012-06-09 01:00:55 <MagicalTux> you need many otp input to decode ?
 38 2012-06-09 01:00:57 <amtran> this is all implemented in the plugin i attribute it to
 39 2012-06-09 01:01:03 <amtran> i use it every day
 40 2012-06-09 01:01:08 <amtran> for password storage
 41 2012-06-09 01:01:45 <MagicalTux> you'll need to store the OTP secret together with the bitcoin wallet
 42 2012-06-09 01:01:46 <amtran> dominik has implemented a look ahead window for accidental generation
 43 2012-06-09 01:01:53 <MagicalTux> or you won't be able to re-encrypt it with the new HOTP key
 44 2012-06-09 01:01:57 <amtran> yes i agree
 45 2012-06-09 01:02:09 <phantomcircuit> HOTP is only useful if replacement of the token isn't costly and time consuming
 46 2012-06-09 01:02:27 <amtran> but you seee this is better than typing the same password (Against keyloggers)
 47 2012-06-09 01:02:50 <phantomcircuit> if there is a keylogger you're already fucked
 48 2012-06-09 01:02:59 <MagicalTux> amtran: true, however to produce enough protection you need to input a lot of characters
 49 2012-06-09 01:03:10 <MagicalTux> standard HOTP is good because you cannot do fast bruteforce over network
 50 2012-06-09 01:03:21 <phantomcircuit> the only protection against a compromised terminal is challenge response tokens where the challenge incorporates transaction details in a simple to verify manner
 51 2012-06-09 01:03:23 <MagicalTux> however if it's a locally encrypted file, you need more input
 52 2012-06-09 01:03:29 <amtran> thats why you use multiple HOTP and hash it
 53 2012-06-09 01:03:51 <MagicalTux> amtran: inputting multiple HOTP makes this whole thing less practical
 54 2012-06-09 01:03:51 <amtran> so the problem is protecting your memory when the wallet+secret are decrypted
 55 2012-06-09 01:04:38 <phantomcircuit> amtran, if the computer is compromised the only protection is to sign the bitcoin transaction on the hardware token itself
 56 2012-06-09 01:05:02 <phantomcircuit> these bitcoin card people seem to have the right idea
 57 2012-06-09 01:05:08 <phantomcircuit> although i haven't looked into it much
 58 2012-06-09 01:05:17 <amtran> phantomcircuit: my intention is to be "good enough" if you understand
 59 2012-06-09 01:05:49 <amtran> id imagine most bitcoin wallets are compromised through keyloggers
 60 2012-06-09 01:05:59 <amtran> or similar crude methods
 61 2012-06-09 01:06:48 <MagicalTux> on our servers, we use the YubiHSM for an extra bit of security (if server is stolen or rebooted, private keys are not available)
 62 2012-06-09 01:07:14 <phantomcircuit> amtran, actually no i would bet that most of them are compromised simply by copying the wallet.dat since most aren't encrypted
 63 2012-06-09 01:07:28 <MagicalTux> for more mainstream protection you idea, amtran, is not bad, but the resulting hassle (inputting many HOTP) and risk (desync means lose it all) will probably not be seen as worth it
 64 2012-06-09 01:07:29 <amtran> yeah that too
 65 2012-06-09 01:07:36 <phantomcircuit> the vast majority of bitcoin malware either simply copies wallet.dat or replaces bitcoin addresses in the clipboard
 66 2012-06-09 01:07:49 <amtran> i use it every day my girlfriend does too magicaltux
 67 2012-06-09 01:07:52 <wizkid057> MagicalTux: what if I splice in power from a grid tie inverter and steal the server without ever cutting power?
 68 2012-06-09 01:07:53 <wizkid057> :P
 69 2012-06-09 01:07:56 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, yubiHSM doesn't support the right ecc sign mechanism though
 70 2012-06-09 01:08:10 <phantomcircuit> so the private key still ends up in the hosts memory at somepoint
 71 2012-06-09 01:08:26 <amtran> the solution to desync is writing your secret key on a piece of paper
 72 2012-06-09 01:08:27 <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: yep, but it's still better than keeping all the stuff required to decrypt these on disk
 73 2012-06-09 01:08:45 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, i guess in practical terms that's probably a step up
 74 2012-06-09 01:08:48 <amtran> and pressing a button a few times doesn't end up being a very big hassle
 75 2012-06-09 01:08:59 <MagicalTux> as I said, it's not perfect security, it's slightly better
 76 2012-06-09 01:09:00 <phantomcircuit> but realistically any compromise of the system instructing payments is effectively a total loss
 77 2012-06-09 01:09:17 <phantomcircuit> which is something all the people talking about multisig seem to simply not understand
 78 2012-06-09 01:10:48 <amtran> well that system would not be exposed to the internet, and it would be less vuln because it would run simpler services
 79 2012-06-09 01:11:05 <amtran> than lets say your user auth server or accounting server
 80 2012-06-09 01:11:46 <phantomcircuit> amtran, it really doesn't matter
 81 2012-06-09 01:11:59 <phantomcircuit> auth/accounting/bitcoin transfer node
 82 2012-06-09 01:12:03 <phantomcircuit> are all equally important
 83 2012-06-09 01:12:17 <phantomcircuit> lose auth? attacker logs in as everybody game over
 84 2012-06-09 01:12:26 <phantomcircuit> lose accounting? attacker gives himself infinity money
 85 2012-06-09 01:12:35 <phantomcircuit> bitcoin transfer node is obvious :)
 86 2012-06-09 01:13:21 <amtran> true i guess
 87 2012-06-09 01:13:51 <phantomcircuit> and actually realistically a compromise of even the www server nodes is a significant breach
 88 2012-06-09 01:14:00 <phantomcircuit> passwords in plaintext and session cookies
 89 2012-06-09 01:14:08 <amtran> if i were running a commercial service i would also include a sig from the webserver to say  "i did this"
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 91 2012-06-09 01:15:56 <amtran> hm
 92 2012-06-09 01:16:42 <phantomcircuit> amtran, essentially a creative attacker could leverage a compromise of just about any piece of infrastructure into a near total compromise
 93 2012-06-09 01:16:51 <phantomcircuit> it's mostly dependent on how patient they are
 94 2012-06-09 01:16:54 <dw> $25 raspberry pi + 100 line python script + google authenticator + network cable = secure wallet
 95 2012-06-09 01:17:29 <dw> and i'd sooner trust that than a half baked smart card implementation
 96 2012-06-09 01:17:37 <phantomcircuit> yup i agree
 97 2012-06-09 01:18:19 <amtran> computer + code + periphrials = nasa mission control
 98 2012-06-09 01:18:35 <dw> i have some basic cards here i wanted to play with, but they don't support hardware ecdsa
 99 2012-06-09 01:19:49 <dw> hey actually there's a business opp in there for someone. all the raspberry pi needs is a physical switch to put it into "i lost my authenticator secrets" mode, and a $5 plastic case :)
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101 2012-06-09 01:22:42 <MagicalTux> dw: we could do that, I guess
102 2012-06-09 01:22:51 abracadab is now known as abracadabra
103 2012-06-09 01:22:58 <MagicalTux> actually we could dev a full bitcoin client using blockexplorer or us as blockchain provider
104 2012-06-09 01:22:58 <dw> i'll write the software bit if you'll give me 10% :P
105 2012-06-09 01:23:25 <dw> ooh, phantomcircuit / MagicalTux confusion
106 2012-06-09 01:23:25 <MagicalTux> and have the raspberry pi only expose a shell and/or web interface to use that bitcoin client
107 2012-06-09 01:23:32 <phantomcircuit> wat
108 2012-06-09 01:23:37 <phantomcircuit> dw, lol
109 2012-06-09 01:23:48 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, serial line
110 2012-06-09 01:23:52 <MagicalTux> dw: been replying to [10:13:38] <dw> $25 raspberry pi + 100 line python script + google authenticator + network cable = secure wallet
111 2012-06-09 01:23:53 <phantomcircuit> they're ornery as fuck
112 2012-06-09 01:23:53 <dw> MagicalTux: actually there are those arm usb sticks that have built in wifi on aliexpress.com, like 30 bucks
113 2012-06-09 01:24:16 <phantomcircuit> all the high security https certificate places have a serial connection to the signing box with crazy custom protocols
114 2012-06-09 01:24:30 <phantomcircuit> an attacker will almost certainly fuckup the protocol and trip the box
115 2012-06-09 01:24:31 <phantomcircuit> lol
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117 2012-06-09 01:24:36 <phantomcircuit> security through complexity
118 2012-06-09 01:25:11 <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: the CA I know do it manually, 12 times a day (every 2 hours)
119 2012-06-09 01:25:22 <dw> MagicalTux: there are various pci cards with network interface that have an on board processor, but they're a bit more expensive
120 2012-06-09 01:25:25 <MagicalTux> some guy copy the req to tape, go to the CA room, get the signatures on a new tape, etc
121 2012-06-09 01:25:34 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, verisign and startssl both use the serial line stuff
122 2012-06-09 01:25:40 <dw> appears to the pc as rtl8139, runs linux on a separate cpu/bus/ram/etc
123 2012-06-09 01:25:49 <luke-jr> dw: Google != trustworhty
124 2012-06-09 01:26:00 <dw> luke-jr: authenticator is open source IIRC
125 2012-06-09 01:26:04 <dw> its just an algorithm
126 2012-06-09 01:26:08 <MagicalTux> google auth is HOTP
127 2012-06-09 01:26:17 <amtran> hahah yeah i didnt want to say
128 2012-06-09 01:26:17 <luke-jr> dw: in any case, a secure wallet requires a dedicated display
129 2012-06-09 01:26:30 <phantomcircuit> and some buttons
130 2012-06-09 01:26:30 <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: I was talking about a japanese one
131 2012-06-09 01:26:36 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: yes
132 2012-06-09 01:26:38 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, that's hilarious :)
133 2012-06-09 01:27:41 <MagicalTux> in Japan, manpower is cheap
134 2012-06-09 01:30:29 <phantomcircuit> manpower is cheap everywhere
135 2012-06-09 01:30:36 <phantomcircuit> except at scale
136 2012-06-09 01:30:39 <phantomcircuit> then it's expensive
137 2012-06-09 01:33:04 <phantomcircuit> although
138 2012-06-09 01:33:10 <phantomcircuit> trustworthy manpower is expensive :)
139 2012-06-09 01:35:34 <MagicalTux> and/or just a dream
140 2012-06-09 01:36:59 <phantomcircuit> heh
141 2012-06-09 01:37:24 <phantomcircuit> im lucky there are some people around here i trust completely
142 2012-06-09 01:37:37 <phantomcircuit> now to make enough money that i can afford to hire someone
143 2012-06-09 01:37:38 <phantomcircuit> lol
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147 2012-06-09 01:55:49 * dw wonders if you could macguiver one of those touchscreen picture frames into a secure wallet :P
148 2012-06-09 01:56:04 <dw> bitcoin is insanely ram hungry though isn't it
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195 2012-06-09 05:47:40 <RastaAssasin> Hello all quick question, I sent a transaction from my wallet over 4 hours ago client ver 0.6.2 and it has 0 confirmations and doesnt seem to have been broadcast through any nodes as the transaction ID has not shown up anywhere on blockchain.info my question is, how long does it take before a transaction is rejected aand is there anyway to force the client to rescan or rebroadcast a
196 2012-06-09 05:47:40 <RastaAssasin> transaction ?
197 2012-06-09 05:49:21 <bonks> whats the txnid?
198 2012-06-09 05:49:34 <RastaAssasin> 1c774ffb0d72b6c6bd737245330f4d477d551d42921650f0598334bc079e0875
199 2012-06-09 05:50:01 Shaded has joined
200 2012-06-09 05:51:07 <bonks> is your client synced 100%?
201 2012-06-09 05:51:31 <RastaAssasin> yes 100%
202 2012-06-09 05:51:45 <RastaAssasin> its very weird
203 2012-06-09 05:52:04 <bonks> is it online?
204 2012-06-09 05:52:10 <bonks> or blocked by a firewall
205 2012-06-09 05:52:26 <RastaAssasin> yes it is
206 2012-06-09 05:52:32 <bonks> how many nodes is it connected to
207 2012-06-09 05:52:35 <RastaAssasin> connected to 8 peers
208 2012-06-09 05:53:00 <RastaAssasin> and this has been the case for hours
209 2012-06-09 05:53:07 <bonks> check the address
210 2012-06-09 05:53:35 <RastaAssasin> the address i paid to does not show tttthe coins as being recieved
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212 2012-06-09 05:54:40 <RastaAssasin> is there a way to force a rescan or something ? as the transaction just seems stuck
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214 2012-06-09 05:55:44 <bonks> -rescan
215 2012-06-09 05:56:00 <bonks> i dont know whats the problem, maybe someone else can chime in
216 2012-06-09 05:56:04 <bonks> also this is interesting https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7159.0
217 2012-06-09 06:00:13 <RastaAssasin> ok thanks i will try deleting the block database
218 2012-06-09 06:00:39 <RastaAssasin> gosh so i really have to go through that long download process to get all the blocks again to fix this ?
219 2012-06-09 06:02:26 <Prattler> RastaAssasin, I'm not sure, but try to first delete only the addr.dat
220 2012-06-09 06:02:32 <Prattler> of course, make a backup of everything
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259 2012-06-09 07:48:28 <bolapara> hi.  was going to ask in #bitcoin but it seems quite OT right now.  How safe is using the official ubuntu PPA vs. the standard client distribution?
260 2012-06-09 07:48:53 <bolapara> Logically it seems to me that I'm putting the same amount of trust, just PPA vs. sourceforge.
261 2012-06-09 07:49:46 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
262 2012-06-09 07:50:13 <bolapara> but it seems a matter of: who can post code to SF and who can post to PPA.
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264 2012-06-09 07:50:34 <bolapara> and how secure is the SF vs. launchpad
265 2012-06-09 07:51:27 <bolapara> and by 'safe', i mean trust that the client is of the officially released binaries.
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269 2012-06-09 07:55:39 <midnightmagic> interesting question.
270 2012-06-09 07:56:17 <midnightmagic> which one do you consider to be more authoritative as a project?
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272 2012-06-09 08:00:56 <bolapara> not so sure.  SF as been around forever, but has had security incidents.  launchpad has not as far as i know, but with much shorter time in operation
273 2012-06-09 08:01:36 <bolapara> obviously, ideally i would compile from source if I was *really* concerned.
274 2012-06-09 08:01:56 <bolapara> but we are a society that leans towards more easy solutions :)
275 2012-06-09 08:03:16 <Joric> sf was approving projects manually (i was waiting about a month in 2006 not sure about now)
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277 2012-06-09 08:04:20 <midnightmagic> bitcoin is signed by the devs: http://iweb.dl.sourceforge.net/project/bitcoin/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.6.2/SHA256SUMS.asc
278 2012-06-09 08:05:09 <midnightmagic> bolapara: so the question isn't whether you trust sourceforge: what I mean is, do you trust the bitcoin devs more than you trust the ubuntu org.
279 2012-06-09 08:06:27 <midnightmagic> bolapara: It doesn't matter in the end..  basically, you can verify the binaries yourself, and where you can in fact do that, that is the most trustworthy.  Personally, I build from source, so I apologise for not being the best person to ask about it.
280 2012-06-09 08:08:06 <bolapara> midnightmagic, PPA packages are signed as well, but fair point, I probably have the bitcoin devs already sig in my gpg
281 2012-06-09 08:08:38 <midnightmagic> bolapara: are the PPA sigs from the same devs?
282 2012-06-09 08:08:47 <midnightmagic> if so, then there's no difference i guess.
283 2012-06-09 08:09:19 <bolapara> dont think so.  "Matt Corallo"?
284 2012-06-09 08:09:28 <midnightmagic> that's bluematt
285 2012-06-09 08:09:43 <bolapara> ahh
286 2012-06-09 08:10:05 <midnightmagic> so..  PPA is okay if that's the signature. out of curiosity, how did you determine that was the signing signature for the PPA?
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288 2012-06-09 08:10:58 <midnightmagic> i guess the only remaining question is whether the key is actually valid. if you can satisfy yourself that bluematt's sig is the one that signed the PPA, and that bluematt here is a real dev, and isn't an evil mastermind, than you're set. :)
289 2012-06-09 08:11:42 <bolapara> hm.  he's uploading them.  https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin  but it seems possible the 'team' can sign?
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291 2012-06-09 08:11:58 <bolapara> midnightmagic, yeah
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294 2012-06-09 08:18:30 <bolapara> midnightmagic, thanks for talking it over with me.
295 2012-06-09 08:18:48 <midnightmagic> signing key is "Launchpad PPA for Bitcoin"
296 2012-06-09 08:18:58 <midnightmagic> so..  i have no idea who controls that.
297 2012-06-09 08:19:53 <midnightmagic> bolapara: no problem. basically, you've gone to more trouble than probably 99% of your fellow bitcoiners, to validate the origin. i would say you are now more informed than basically most of all other bitcoiners. IMO you are therefore safer.
298 2012-06-09 08:19:59 <bolapara> matt seems to be the 'owner' of the project, whatever that means to launchpad :)
299 2012-06-09 08:20:27 <midnightmagic> he's just a peon, Gavin is the lead dev.
300 2012-06-09 08:20:31 <midnightmagic> er..  no offense matt.
301 2012-06-09 08:20:39 <midnightmagic> maybe peon isn't the best word.
302 2012-06-09 08:20:42 <bolapara> ha
303 2012-06-09 08:21:31 <midnightmagic> in my defence, i haven't had much sleep and my son is very sick. :)
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332 2012-06-09 10:29:19 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1433 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1433>
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343 2012-06-09 11:35:12 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: bolapara launchpad controls the key that does the actual signing, but thats just because they do the builds (I just upload source and they build)
344 2012-06-09 11:35:53 <BlueMatt> I just do the ppa because no one else stepped up to do it, so...
345 2012-06-09 11:36:04 <BlueMatt> not like gavin has time
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348 2012-06-09 12:07:25 <xorgate> suppose i wish to make a program that periodically sends a few coins to an address, how would i go about this? where to start, take the source from the bitcoin app and modify?
349 2012-06-09 12:09:28 <sipa> while true; do sleep 86400; ./bitcoind sendtoaddress amount <address>; done
350 2012-06-09 12:10:58 <Diablo-D3> heh
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352 2012-06-09 12:19:10 <xorgate> alright ;) suppose i wish my prog to send an email to myself when i receive bitcoins, how can i detect this?
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379 2012-06-09 13:47:06 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1434 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1434>
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409 2012-06-09 15:19:31 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 1435 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1435>
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427 2012-06-09 16:05:10 <AlexWaters> anyone know why I have a receiving address showing in my transactions list, but it is not in my address book? I am also missing some transactions sent to this address. running 0.6.2 recently updated from a .4 release in windows 7 x64
428 2012-06-09 16:05:35 <AlexWaters> i have wallet backups, just confused
429 2012-06-09 16:05:46 diki has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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431 2012-06-09 16:06:12 <sipa> well you can do sends to your change addresses, which do not show up in the receive addresses list
432 2012-06-09 16:07:05 <AlexWaters> weird that only some of the transactions have been going through
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434 2012-06-09 16:07:22 <sipa> does BBE see them?
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443 2012-06-09 16:34:47 <luke-jr> sipa: btw, http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/bestblocks.html
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447 2012-06-09 16:47:05 <sipa> BBE accepts any substring of the block hash as search query?
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450 2012-06-09 16:54:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: does it?
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452 2012-06-09 16:58:41 <luke-jr> sipa: yes
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458 2012-06-09 17:00:38 <amtran>   sipa: how are your difficulty measurements calculated
459 2012-06-09 17:03:05 <amtran> i didnt realize you made those charts until now :)
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462 2012-06-09 17:06:27 <xorgate> what does that piechart show? how different parts of the network disagree?
463 2012-06-09 17:08:16 <luke-jr> xorgate: a lot more stuck nodes than is healthy
464 2012-06-09 17:11:03 <xorgate> so 7839 nodes are uptodate, and ~3000 are somehow not updating? how does this happen?
465 2012-06-09 17:11:56 <sipa> luke-jr: that's very worrying
466 2012-06-09 17:12:18 <luke-jr> xorgate: wish we knew
467 2012-06-09 17:12:23 <sipa> especially since we don't know why, and can't reproduce
468 2012-06-09 17:12:38 <luke-jr> it seems to be approximately the same ratio of versions as the whole network though, so it's probably not a regression
469 2012-06-09 17:12:51 <amtran> do you have historical data on this
470 2012-06-09 17:12:51 <[Tycho]> What pie chart ?
471 2012-06-09 17:12:56 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/bestblocks.html
472 2012-06-09 17:12:57 <[Tycho]> *which
473 2012-06-09 17:13:00 <luke-jr> amtran: no
474 2012-06-09 17:13:11 <luke-jr> sipa: are you keeping historical seed info btw?
475 2012-06-09 17:13:15 <luke-jr> might be handy someday
476 2012-06-09 17:13:21 <amtran> could it be the result of churn? (new users join/part)
477 2012-06-09 17:14:11 <sipa> luke-jr: yes, but not very useful stats
478 2012-06-09 17:14:58 * luke-jr ponders setting up a cronjob to commit the latest seeds.txt to a git repo daily
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485 2012-06-09 17:22:35 <matt2011> sipa: what estimation algorithm do you use for your charts? has there ever been any discussion of using them on the test net to replace the current difficulty calculation?
486 2012-06-09 17:24:48 <sipa> matt2011: my algorithm is way too unstable to be used as difficulty calculation
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488 2012-06-09 17:26:22 <sipa> and changing it on realnet requires a hardfork anyway
489 2012-06-09 17:28:00 <matt2011> im not really interested in changing the realnet yet but i think it would be useful to have a testnet to look into improving difficulty
490 2012-06-09 17:28:46 <matt2011> do you use FIR to calculate your moving average
491 2012-06-09 17:30:34 <BlueMatt> testnet is designed to be as similar to mainnet with only differences useful for testing, I would argue that doesnt make it more useful for testing
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493 2012-06-09 17:32:05 <matt2011> if someone wrote a patch it wouldnt be tested? for a limited time?
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498 2012-06-09 17:35:07 <sipa> matt2011: i use an exponentially decaying average over time (which can be considered an IIR) to calculate averages of block-finding-speed (weighted by difficulty) and average age of recent blocks, and feed those to a maximum likelyhood estimator that estimates average and growth rate for an assumed poisson-like process with exponentially changing rate
499 2012-06-09 17:36:03 <sipa> assuming the actual hash rate is a function of the form A*exp(B*t), it will give a very accurate estimation of A and B
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501 2012-06-09 17:37:25 <sipa> but the hashrate that results from this calculation is effectively an extrapolation (it uses data from the past to guess the current speed)
502 2012-06-09 17:37:37 <sipa> which makes it inappriopriate as a difficulty function
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506 2012-06-09 17:40:07 <matt2011> thank you sipa. i wonder if this is a better area to prove a new difficulty algorithm than in the bitcoin client itself.
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508 2012-06-09 17:44:12 <BlueMatt> why do we need a new diff algorithm?
509 2012-06-09 17:44:35 <BlueMatt> dumb averages may not be perfect, but Id say we are far from needing a new one
510 2012-06-09 17:48:44 <sipa> indeed
511 2012-06-09 17:49:35 <sipa> the perfect is the enemy of the good
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513 2012-06-09 17:50:12 <sipa> if we'd design bitcoin today i sure as hell wouldn't use the same difficulty changing algorithm as satoshi chose, but there is not by any means reason to change it now
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515 2012-06-09 17:54:52 <matt2011> i doubt very seriously bitcoin will look anything like the client satoshi designed 5 years from now.
516 2012-06-09 17:56:10 <matt2011> satoshis difficulty target had one goal and one goal alone -- 2016 blocks every two weeks. if you want to know how good it is you have to measure it only on that metric (and i havent seen anybody doing that)
517 2012-06-09 17:56:44 <BlueMatt> I actually do think bitcoin will look very similar to that of today in 5 years
518 2012-06-09 17:56:58 <BlueMatt> Unless something serious happen, I doubt a hardfork will occur
519 2012-06-09 17:57:06 <BlueMatt> and that prevents us from doing anything crazy
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522 2012-06-09 18:03:38 <BlueMatt> anyway, bbl
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559 2012-06-09 20:36:45 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
560 2012-06-09 20:36:46 <gribble> 183770
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572 2012-06-09 20:58:38 <sipa> luke-jr: what is the difference between block submission and block proposal?
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583 2012-06-09 21:18:48 <forrestv> sipa, block proposal is the same as submission, except that the PoW doesn't have to be valid
584 2012-06-09 21:18:59 <sipa> ah, i see
585 2012-06-09 21:19:01 <forrestv> it's just to check whether you'll get credit for work before you actually do it
586 2012-06-09 21:19:51 <sipa> yes, i understand
587 2012-06-09 21:22:43 Diapolo has joined
588 2012-06-09 21:22:55 <sipa> i wonder why getmemorypool (or similar call), doesn't just return a list with (txid,dependencies,fee) plus some header info, and a submission is a header + coinbase + txid list
589 2012-06-09 21:23:06 <Diapolo> good evening
590 2012-06-09 21:23:24 <sipa> seems a lot more simple than bip22 now (though that does address more use cases, admittedly)
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601 2012-06-09 21:38:30 <Diapolo> A mined block on testnet should show imediately as transaction in Bitcoin-Qt, right? It seems to not do this for me currently.
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605 2012-06-09 21:45:45 <JFK911> no
606 2012-06-09 21:45:48 <JFK911> wait for another block
607 2012-06-09 21:46:15 <JFK911> http://callhim.virtbox.ru/schild.swf?namee=diapolo
608 2012-06-09 21:46:27 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
609 2012-06-09 21:49:10 <Diapolo> :-P
610 2012-06-09 21:49:14 <Diapolo> thanks
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612 2012-06-09 21:56:02 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: mikehearn opened issue 1436 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1436>
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620 2012-06-09 22:30:23 <Diapolo> sipa: are you reading ;)?
621 2012-06-09 22:35:42 <sipa> no
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623 2012-06-09 22:45:51 <Diapolo> sipa: I meant here in the chat ^^ ... LookupNumeric() seems to disallow ::1, which is IPv6 loopback address.
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631 2012-06-09 23:00:52 <sipa> Diapolo: really?
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633 2012-06-09 23:01:11 <Diablo-D3> wow thats fucktarded
634 2012-06-09 23:01:27 <sipa> Diapolo: oh, before #1399 is merged, you need [::1]
635 2012-06-09 23:01:34 <Diablo-D3> sipa: LOL
636 2012-06-09 23:02:07 <sipa> before #1399, it is parsed as host ':' with port 1
637 2012-06-09 23:03:01 <Diapolo> But it's a nice solution for checking the supplied proxy address :).
638 2012-06-09 23:03:06 <Diablo-D3> sipa: ouch
639 2012-06-09 23:03:11 <Diablo-D3> because it shouldnt parse :
640 2012-06-09 23:03:16 <Diablo-D3> it should parse :: first
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642 2012-06-09 23:03:34 <sipa> Diapolo: so, try with #1399 :)
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644 2012-06-09 23:05:49 <Diapolo> sipa: I'm sure you know it's fixed by that one and I don't rely on it currently :). I'm working on adding support for checking proxy IP and allow IPv6 addresses. I'm sure #1399 get's in way before the new optionsdialog ^^.
645 2012-06-09 23:07:50 <sipa> after onion support is merged, there will be an extra pitfall: even if LookupNumeric succeeds, if the resulting CService is .IsTor(), it isn't valid
646 2012-06-09 23:08:35 <Diapolo> as I said you have to guide me on how to add support for that in the GUI ... but it starts to make a lot of fun recently
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656 2012-06-09 23:44:12 <luke-jr> sipa: proposal doesn't require a valid proof-of-work and doesn't count as a share
657 2012-06-09 23:45:22 <luke-jr> sipa: BIP22 does specify how to do abbreviated submissions, but it's non-trivial to implement
658 2012-06-09 23:45:48 <sipa> luke-jr: see mail :)
659 2012-06-09 23:46:03 <luke-jr> no mail
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661 2012-06-09 23:46:45 <luke-jr> …
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663 2012-06-09 23:47:12 <sipa> meh, sourceforge sluggishness, i suppose